Ever wonder where the internet stops and IRL begins? Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor. From internet trends to AI slop to the politics of memes, Close All Tabs covers it all.
How will AI change our jobs and lives? Is the government watching what I post? Is there life beyond TikTok? Host Morgan Sung pulls from experts, the audience, and history to add context to the trends and depth to the memes. And she’ll wrestle with as many browser tabs as it takes to explain the cultural moment we’re all collectively living.
Episodes
Sickfluencers, the Covid-Conscious Lesbian Bar and the Algorithmic Ableism Trap
Sickfluencers, the Covid-Conscious Lesbian Bar and the Algorithmic Ableism Trap
Support for Close All Tabs comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund.
Close All Tabs Team
Morgan Sung
Host
Morgan Sung is a tech journalist whose work covers the range of absurdity and brilliance that is the internet. Her beat has evolved into an exploration of social platforms and how they shape real-world culture. She has written for TechCrunch, NBC News, Mashable, BuzzFeed News and more. Morgan Sung is represented by SAG-AFTRA.
Maya Cueva
Producer
Maya is the Producer for Close All Tabs, as well as an award winning director from Berkeley. She specializes in documentary, radio, and audio production. She was a Netflix Nonfiction Director and Producer fellow was also listed on DOC NYC’s 40 Under 40 Filmmakers, co-presented by HBO Documentary Films. Maya’s work has been featured on The New Yorker, NPR’s All Things Considered, Latino USA, The Atlantic, Teen Vogue, and National Geographic. She received a student Emmy for her short film, The Provider, and her feature film, On the Divide, premiered in the documentary competition at Tribeca Film Festival in 2021 and was broadcast on POV on PBS in Spring 2022. Maya Cueva is represented by SAG-AFTRA.
Chris Egusa
Senior Editor
Chris Egusa is the Senior Editor for Close All Tabs, as well as composer and sound designer. His reporting on disability and healthcare inequities has earned accolades from the Public Media Journalists Association, the Society of Professional Journalists NorCal, Investigative Reporters and Editors, the Webby Awards, and more. Chris’ background includes audio documentary production, filmmaking, and nonprofit strategy. He holds degrees from SJSU and Northwestern University’s Medill School. Chris is more online than he cares to admit, appreciates a good clicky mechanical keyboard, and definitely owns too many pairs of hi-fi headphones.
Chris Hambrick
Editor
Chris is an editor for KQED Podcasts and loves holding the big picture vision for shows. Previously they were a producer for Spooked Podcast from Snap Judgment Studios, host for The Tracklist on KGPC, as well as White Rabbit Story Hour podcast. They have contributed to KALW, KQED’s Bay Curious, and facilitated for national oral history project, StoryCorps. Sometimes, if you’re lucky, you can catch her telling stories on the Mortified, SFLitCrawl or Moth stages.
Jen Chien
Director of Podcasts
Jen Chien is Director of Podcasts at KQED and co-founder of the Editors Collective and Edit Mode. Previously, she was Executive Editor for LWC Studios, Senior Radio Editor at Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting and Managing Editor for Crosscurrents and KALW News. Awards recognitions include Third Coast, Peabody, Gracies, ONA/OJA, and SPJ Sigma Delta Chi. She holds a BA in American Studies from Smith College, and an MA in Interdisciplinary Performance from New College of California.
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"title": "Sickfluencers, the Covid-Conscious Lesbian Bar and the Algorithmic Ableism Trap",
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"content": "\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When viral stories like the Last Ditch bar masking controversy and the “sickfluencer” debate whipped the internet into a frenzy, disabled people found themselves in the crosshairs. Researcher and creator Jess Rauchberg saw a common driver behind the vitriol: algorithmic ableism. The term describes how social media platforms and their algorithms suppress disabled creators while amplifying ridicule of them. Jess has seen it first hand as a disabled content creator, and has explored it in a research paper and an upcoming book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Morgan talks with Jess about the history of disabled people in public life, how some people with disabilities get turned into “lolcows,” how algorithms push ableist rage, and why social media platforms are the ones who come out on top.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessrauchberg.com/\">Dr. Jess Rauchberg\u003c/a>, creator culture expert and lecturer at the University of Leeds\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bostonglobe.com/2026/09/22/magazine/greenfield-last-ditch-bar-backlash/\">Greenfield lesbian bar Last Ditch faces mask-rule backlash\u003c/a> — Annalisa Quinn, \u003cem>The Boston Globe\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/the-insidious-world-of-lolcows\">The Insidious World of Lolcows\u003c/a> — Emily Topping, \u003cem>Current Affairs\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://passionfru.it/the-worldoftshirts-review-10862/\">An Honest Review of the WorldofTShirts Experience\u003c/a> — Steven Asarch, \u003cem>Passionfruit\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/history-of-ugly-laws-america-disability\">Illegal to be ’ugly’? The history behind one of America‘s cruelest laws\u003c/a> — \u003cem>National Geographic\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09589236.2025.2477116\">Articulating algorithmic ableism: the suppression and surveillance of disabled TikTok creators\u003c/a> — Jess Rauchberg, \u003cem>Journal of Gender Studies, Volume 34,\u003c/em> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/cjgs20/34/8\">\u003cem>Issue 8\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/long-ignored-syndrome-drawing-unprecedented-attention-2026a1001531?form=fpf\">A Long-Ignored Syndrome Is Drawing Unprecedented Attention\u003c/a> — Laurie Tarkan, \u003cem>Medscape\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/\">TikTok Told Moderators: Suppress Posts by the “Ugly” and Poor\u003c/a> — Sam Biddle, Paulo Victor Ribeiro, Tatiana Dias, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/article/2026/11/08/no-one-should-be-shamed-for-using-a-mobility-aid/\">No One Should Be Shamed for Using a Mobility Aid\u003c/a> — Nicole Clark, \u003cem>TIME\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hi, Tabby Cats. Do you have an internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity you’ve been wondering about? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate. Go to kqed.org/podcast/Close All Tabs, to submit your question. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey, just a note. This episode contains mentions of substance abuse and self-harm, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last month, Last Ditch Bar and Arts Venue announced that it was closing its doors and seeking new ownership. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @brettcooper] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Brett Cooper: Breaking news, I know that this is going to be just such a shock to everyone, but the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts has officially announced that they are closing. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @rudeboybrody] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>RudeBoyBrody: Have you heard of the COVID conscious lesbian bar on the verge of civil-war after going mask optional?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @holdensmith962]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>HoldenSmith962: Oh my god you’d have thought they were burning people at the stake at that establishment.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last Ditch, better known as the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts, was at the center of a super viral Boston Globe article in September. The bar had opened last year as a safe space for immunocompromised and COVID conscious queer people and required all patrons to wear a KN95 mask or better. But Last Ditch struggled to stay afloat. Between the slowing foot traffic and visitors not spending enough money at the bar, Last Ditch just couldn’t turn a profit. So, in an effort to attract more patrons, the bar announced that it would lift its masking policy on Saturdays. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And it’s worth noting that this part of western Massachusetts, the Pioneer Valley, is very progressive and very queer, thanks to the concentration of liberal arts and women’s colleges. The Boston Globe article detailed the community firestorm that followed that announcement. Commenters on Instagram accused the bar of being complicit in a mass disabling event and claimed “people like you kill disabled people in the name of your own leisure and convenience.” In response, the bar hosted a mediation session with community members, which seemed to provoke detractors even more. This was ultimately a story about how community infighting and interpersonal drama derailed what was supposed to be an inclusive third space for queer people who practice COVID safety, at a time when lesbian bars in the U.S. are already dying out. The Globe article was packed with juicy details that were primed to go viral, like how one of the bar’s original owners stepped down to go to clown school. The story immediately sparked a ton of discourse within queer and disabled communities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @charlotteswebtattoos] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>CharlottesWebTatoos: I need to sit down with a bunch of gay people and we need to break down this article sentence by sentence. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @allegedly_erin]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Allegedly_Erin: And if I, a queer disabled woman, roll up to the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts sipping my iced coffee \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of juno_aventurine from Instagram]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Juno_Aventurine: I am not interested in making fun of or looking down on people who are COVID conscious, particularly not at immunocompromised people who want more spaces that are more accessible for them. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of overcookingmytoast from Instagram] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>OvercookingMyToast: I lived in Western Massachusetts for many years. I am telling you right now that this situation would only fucking happen in Western Massachusets. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But then, it broke containment. More mainstream outlets picked it up, and commenters on the left and on the right ran with it. And as more people outside the community got ahold of it, with social media algorithms fueling the spread, the context got lost. The discourse became less about the story itself and more about ridiculing disabled and COVID-conscious people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> It becomes a way to stoke and instigate people’s rage or big emotions or reactions at the expense of, like, what was this very niche community conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Dr. Jess Rauschberg. She’s a lecturer at the University of Leeds and she studies the politics of the creator economy. And as Jess pointed out, the COVID conscious lesbian bar debacle happened amid a bigger cultural pylon of disabled people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of redblaquegolden from Instagram] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>redblaquegolden: It’s been like over a week now, and we’re still having this conversation about this bar. Fundamentally, the thing that bothers me the most about this is that right now, the government is currently working on legislation that will make it a thousand times harder for people with disabilities to receive care in their homes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This story about the drama in a small Western Massachusetts community snowballed out of control, pulling in other queer disabled people who had nothing to do with Last Ditch. Commenters accused creators of faking their disabilities for attention. Social media erupted in debate over young people using mobility aids, like canes. People who still mask in public spaces, whether it’s because they’re immunocompromised or just don’t wanna get sick, where he cried as too woke. Disabled people have long been a favorite target online, and social media has only accelerated that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> These platforms reward rage. Reward being upset, they reward big feelings or strong opinions, and they reward humiliation. I think of like an old school platform, that could be a gallow or like the place where you would hang somebody as a public spectacle. Okay, we still have that now with these digital platforms. Obviously, like, it doesn’t physically work the same way, but when you are the main character of the internet that everyone is turning on or you’re the digital punching bag, algorithmic ableism really, I think, intensifies that even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Algorithmic Ableism. Jess coined the concept in a paper published last year to describe how social media recommendation algorithms discriminate against disabled people and uphold long-standing biases of who deserves to exist in public. She’s also writing a book about how algorithmic ableism shapes the creator economy. Today, we’re diving deep into what algorithmic ableism looks like in practice, how social-media platforms profit from it, and how the old spectacle of the ‘freak show’ has been reborn online. Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung:, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like always, let’s open a new tab. What is algorithmic ableism? First, let’s talk about what ableism is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So ableism can be defined in many ways. And I think of it as a form of political oppression that is really concentrated on the devaluation of bodily and cognitivie difference. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This includes accessibility barriers, like train stations without lifts, which are inaccessible to wheelchair users, or public events without captions or sign language interpreters, so they exclude people who are deaf or hard of hearing. But underneath all of it are beliefs and biases — prejudice against bodily and cognitive differences — that bleed into every single aspect of society, both on and offline. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For example, when creators post about asking for accommodations at airports, or post fit checks with their mobility aides, they’re accused of attention seeking. Comments like, just running around undiagnosed, or are you acoustic? Have become common responses to neurodivergent users. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Those ideas are so intrinsic to everything that we do online, to the ways that we program algorithmic recommendation infrastructures, to ways we believe we should treat each other in a comment section. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess started thinking about algorithmic ableism almost 10 years ago, just before she started her PhD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> As a grad student, it felt really isolating and lonely sometimes when I wanted to share my experiences or just have someone to relate to about being disabled in graduate school. And I thought one day, I want to see who’s online and who can I connect with because maybe there has to be someone else out there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess started posting under the handle, Disabled PhD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I saw how, on the one hand, social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok and At the time, Twitter could be these really cool hubs for disabled and chronically ill and neurodivergent people to work, to play, to live, and find community when the offline world can be really inaccessible. But at the same time, the way algorithmic recommendation works, the way that we treat each other in platform environments is increasingly at the expense of disabled people existing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She channeled her own experience as a disabled creator online into her academic research, and now, her upcoming book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> We’re in an environment where ableism and to be openly ableist is acceptable and it’s also encouraged by the platforms and that in turn is shaping how we treat each other. So like I often compare this to this idea of like, why do we treat each other like NPCs or non-playable characters from video games? It’s just so easy to dismiss them. It’s really easy to want to make assumptions about who they are because of like how I’ve received the ways they present themselves, that’s also tied to ableism too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is apparent in the way the COVID-conscious lesbian bar debate blew up. The discourse around disabilities had already been brewing online, separate from the bar fallout. A few weeks before the Boston Globe article propelled Last Ditch into the national spotlight, across the pond, the Telegraph published an op-ed titled “How Having a Disability Became Cool.” It claims that sickfluencers were turning chronic illness into a lifestyle trend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And so sick influencers is kind of this derogatory term. It’s a way to kind of push back or devalue and dismiss influencers and content creators who make chronic illness, like advocacy or awareness content. It’s not new. I think essentially what this article did was basically accused being a chronic illness influencer as just this desire to participate in a trend that these people are faking it. That they’re scamming their audience, and that we are getting duped by these women who just really wanna be oppressed while they line their pockets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The article highlighted a condition called POTS, Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, a nervous system disorder that affects blood flow. It causes rapid heart rate, dizziness when standing, extreme fatigue, brain fog, headaches, and fainting. There are medications that help, but treatments also include compression therapy, doing certain exercises to keep blood circulating, and increasing salt and fluid intake. However, the severity of pot symptoms can really vary, and some people manage flare-ups by using mobility aids like walkers and canes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The op-ed claimed that many so-called sickfluencers had diagnosed themselves with POTS and questioned whether they were also faking comorbidities like Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, chronic fatigue, and fibromyalgia. It insinuated that young women were playing up or even faking their disabilities for attention and clout. Soon enough, it was all over the internet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @desmondfambrini] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Desmondfambrini: Why does everybody have a cane and a walker now? It’s driving me crazy. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @fleccastalks] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Fleccastalks: These are all people who are disabled for fun. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @horriblemeanwoman] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>HeatherShaw: And how come every time I see somebody hop on TikTok and say that they can’t work because they have POTS and extreme migraines and fatigue and they can’t understand time so they just have to stay in their room in their pajamas and maybe their short hair and septum rings uh they can’t work. It’s always just a white lady.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That last clip was from comedian Heather Shaw, who is also white. She since deleted the video. Here’s Jess again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> This is very fascinating how this all kind of happened within like a three to four week period. You have like this, why are all white women just like trying to cosplay as marginalized and saying they’re disabled or like they’re queer and why is it always a trope? So you have that discourse happening on TikTok. You have the Last Ditch bar discourse happening all over the internet. And then you have the Telegraph published this very controversial op-ed decrying sickfluencers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In all of its speculation over the uptick in POTS cases among young women, the Telegraph op-ed neglected to mention that POTS has been directly linked to viral infections, like the flu, Epstein-Barr, and the big one: COVID. An estimated 40% of people with report having COVID months before their POTS symptoms started. A University of Toledo study analyzed medical records of more than 65 million Americans and found a dramatic surge in POTS cases between March 2020 and June 2025, a more than five times increase since the pandemic started. Other recent medical research has linked POT symptoms to autoimmune signals after infection. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> We kind of have glossed over the devastation of COVID and like how people are experiencing long COVID where POTS is a comorbidity for long COVID. So a lot of people have developed these chronic conditions from a mass disabling event. And I think we really forget that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> POTS also overlaps with multiple chronic illnesses and disabling conditions. Connective tissue disorders, for example, can impact circulation. As a nervous system condition, POTS is also linked to chronic pain and gastrointestinal issues. It also often presents with autoimmune conditions like lupus, celiac disease, and mast cell activation syndrome. So there’s a lot of overlap between people who have POT and other chronic illnesses, people who have mobility aids, and people who still wear masks to protect their immune systems. The Boston Globe story about Last Ditch just added fuel to the fire. It was like a perfect storm. And it created this online environment where any young person who used a mobility aid or wore a mask in public or even talked about having a disability was both accused of faking it and also ridiculed for having it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> It’s not just like a really horrific example of algorithmic ableism, but the ways algorithmic ableism is tied to a larger rage bait economy and how the internet or like platform cultures are now not just a forum where we can all share our ideas and show up and maybe we disagree and maybe there are arguments, but at the end of the day, we’re all participating fully. This is like being in a gladiators arena where you get to watch somebody else’s humiliation public punishment and you seek pleasure from that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that spectacle becomes more enticing when stories like Last Ditch go through something called context collapse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Knowing a little bit personally about the cultural context this comes from, this is like a really niche community disagreement that became central to a national news story, right? It’s covered in the Boston Globe, but then it travels online. And so now you’re bringing in all these other people who have no experience with like Western Massachusetts lesbian culture or like COVID conscious culture. And now it’s like, everyone gets a chance to dunk on these people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And social platforms themselves profit off this rage because it drives engagement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And then when these perfect storm stories happen, platform economies reward the rage because TikTok, Instagram, X, they’re not really making money off of existing as a platform. They kind of exist as the space that hosts user-generated content. And the more traffic, the more attention they can bring to the platform by hosting a viral discourse or being the spot where the top creators and influencers are working. That’s not just lucrative to the platform, it’s also lucrative to the advertisers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a vicious cycle. The people doing the mocking and the people being mocked are feeding the same content machine. Platforms profit off of all of it. All of this intersects with this other online phenomenon that Jess has researched extensively, lolcows. LOL as in L-O-L like laughing out loud and cow as in something to be milked. A lolcow is someone who goes viral for their eccentric behavior and is seen as a laughingstock. Audiences mock them to provoke more reactions. The idea is that their discomfort is milked for entertainment. Often, the people the internet labels as lolcows are disabled, many with an intellectual or developmental disability. It’s about who’s easiest to target. They go viral for looking different and behaving in a way that the audience sees as cringe, depraved, or otherwise socially unacceptable. People dunk on them, and then they keep going viral because their reactions are seen as more entertainment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from World of Tshirts on YouTube] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: Get that camera out of my face! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Although algorithmic ableism is a relatively new phenomenon, Jess says the concept of lolcows isn’t. Audiences have turned people into spectacle for entertainment throughout human history. Writings about the so-called village fool date back thousands of years. That history and the modern lolcow phenomenon is a whole new tab, which we’ll open right after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqd.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, the long history of disability as entertainment and how the internet ran with it. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’re back! Let’s open a new tab, the History of Lolcow-ification. Although algorithmic ableism and the word lolcow itself are consequences of the digital age, none of this is that new. It’s inherited from centuries of hiding disabled people away. When disabled people were allowed to exist in public, they were often exploited, frequently put on display for a laughing crowd. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Like Medieval Europe and Renaissance Europe had fools, so nobles would keep these people who were oftentimes we would probably understand them now to be autistic or developmentally disabled. And they were kind of kept as pets during a feast or some kind of big event. You would bring out the fool and you would just like laugh at them and you would interact with them. And it was entertaining. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Fast forward to Europe’s so-called Age of Enlightenment, from the late 1600s to the early 1800s, when cities began locking people away for lunacy. In other words, incarcerating people who were dealing with mental illness or disability. In addition to subjecting patients to horrific living conditions and barbaric treatments, some of these asylums also put them on display. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> London’s very infamous Bethlehem Asylum had viewing days. So on Sundays after church, you could go to Bethlehems, give a few pence and go watch the patients on display in like these caged rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For centuries, people with physical disabilities like dwarfism had been put on display at provincial fairs, often with little say in it. By the mid-1800s, P.T. Barnum had turned that display into a commercial spectacle with his freak shows. He came up with wild backstories for performers, like claiming that a black man with microcephaly was the missing link in human evolution. His real name was William Henry Johnson, but audiences only knew him as Zip the Pinhead. Prince Randian, a Guyanese American man born without arms or legs, drew massive crowds as the Human Caterpillar. As part of his performance, he would roll and light a cigarette using only his mouth. Chang and Eng Bunker, conjoined twins from Thailand who were brought to the U.S. As teenagers, became freak show celebrities as the Siamese Twins. At the same time, in everyday life, disabled people were often kept out of sight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So you have people whose labor and public appearance is hidden in other aspects of life because this is during the time of ugly laws but you’re also a form of entertainment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ugly laws were first implemented in San Francisco, just after the Civil War. Also known as unsightly beggar ordinances, they targeted people with visible disabilities or disfigurements, banning them from public spaces. Violators could be jailed or institutionalized. This wasn’t just about cracking down on panhandling. It was about enforcing social norms by pretending that disabled people just didn’t exist. The last ugly laws were repealed in 1974, but they were part of a much larger pattern of excluding disabled people from daily life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> With these social norms in place, and in some cases, legally enforced, freak shows were one of the few ways that disabled people could make a living. Some even achieved financial stability and were able to retire comfortably, at the cost of being mocked and ogled at every day for years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Social media platforms have had their own version of ugly laws. In 2019, the German digital rights news outlet NetzPolitik published a bombshell investigation revealing that TikTok had told its moderators to suppress content from people with disabilities, facial disfigurement, or facial problems. TikTok said that such users were, quote, susceptible to bullying or harassment based on their physical or mental condition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok called the guidelines a blunt and temporary policy and said that they have since changed their anti-bullying methods. But later reporting from other outlets revealed that TikTok also didn’t want to scare away new users by allowing them to see disabled people on their For You page. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did it actually stop the harassment? Well, no. It’s a legacy of ableism adapted to a new medium. Platforms have a pattern of hiding disabled creators. Until the creators are being ridiculed. Then the platforms amplify their content. It echoes the same dynamic that existed in the era of freak shows. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So you would go to fairs or carnivals and you could go into the House of the Freaks. And your difference, whether it’s cognitive or bodily or a combination of both, is something to be on display. And that was a form of amusement for the viewer. So obviously we don’t have freak shows quite like that anymore, but I would argue that our entertainment media industries are really bent on this idea of freakery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That brings us to the late 2000s, when the internet gave this old idea a new name. The Lolcow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Lolcow culture was something that was kind of sequestered to the bowels of the web, the 4chans, the Something Awfuls, the Kiwi Farms. And these were people who on messaging boards would antagonize these people who it was funny to see them react. We could say that the instigation of these early locales like Chris Chan or Chris Weston was an early form of reach bait. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Chris Chan is often called the original lolcow. She’s an autistic trans woman who first went viral in 2007 with her comic series about Sonichu, an anime-inspired character that blended Pikachu with Sonic the Hedgehog. The comic was amateur, and 4chan users mocked her relentlessly for it, but when she responded to the trolls, every reaction gave them more to work with. She’s been involved in a string of controversy since then, but has also been a target of ridicule and harassment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> But now, lolcow culture is not just on these messaging boards that have a bad rap. Some lolcows have been able to work and profit and make some kind of living off of their exploitation and humiliation. And not exclusively, but overwhelmingly, a lot of these little cows are developmentally disabled or autistic or neurodivergent and have high support needs or like appear to be from what we see online. But a lot of these lolcows aren’t just on social media platforms, they live stream. And so you can watch like every day, hours of footage of the lolcow. And this has kind of evolved into like a new form of lolcow that we might call a career cow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A career cow is someone who makes money off of being a lolcow. Unlike Chris Chan, they’re not some random person that the internet picks up and mocks. This is specifically someone who make content and makes a living out of it. One of the most well-known career cows is Joshua Block, a content creator also known as World of TShirts. He originally went viral for giving drunk tours of New York City on camera and became something of a niche local celebrity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @alexholem] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 1: Just chilling here, getting drunk with the captain. What words you got to say to them? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: We’re getting drunk tonight. Yes, sir! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Josh is autistic, and viewers quickly realized that he had a serious substance abuse problem. Other streamers would take him out, get him wasted, and prompt him to do or say things for the camera. He became known for saying this meme phrase at McDonald’s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @crashingbad] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 2: So then you could be like, put the fries in the bag. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: Put the fries in the bag! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But the phrase became a taunt. When bystanders saw him live streaming in real life, they’d run up to him and yell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 3: Put the fries in the bag!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: How did you find me again?! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which would really upset him, and his meltdowns became fodder for streamers to entertain viewers. Videos titled Josh Block Crash Out rarely went viral on TikTok. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And so he would engage, when he would be instigated by his live stream comments, what’s called the text-to-speech feature. So I pay $10 and I say something or rage bait Josh Block and he would bite himself or punch himself or start screaming. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @lolcownews5] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Text to speech: Put the fries in the bag, you unemployed- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: I’m not! Ah, ah. No, no, no! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 4: Oh god, you just threw it on the screen, Josh! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>[Tip beep]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And people would watch us for hours and days and days on end and they would follow his antics and his movements closely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For years, Josh would livestream his binge drinking. His chat sent him cash tips to buy himself more drinks or would provoke him into an on-camera meltdown. Other streamers made content out of partying with him while viewers showed up in person to give him more alcohol. His drinking often spiraled out of control, which became even more content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Following an arrest in California, Josh went to attend a court ordered rehab program earlier this year. He announced that he has to abstain from drinking for one year to avoid further charges. But he did resume streaming and said that he plans to resume drinking when he’s legally cleared. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok] \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: When all that is over, I’ll just do it in moderation. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 5: In moderation, that’s his plan. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 6: Of course. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 5: To drink in moderation. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> When Josh said he plans to drink again, viewers celebrated. With comments like, we’re so back, and knew the sobriety thing was too good to be true. Jess says this is part of a broader pattern. Earlier this year, she published a paper on platform authoritarianism, the idea that digital spaces are fueled by suppressive, surveillance-based practices. Platform authoritarianism is the use of algorithms and censorship to maintain power. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I kind of looked at this from the lens of disability in class. So if ableism in the creator economy, algorithmic ableism, devalues or dismisses the contributions of disabled creators, influencers, street builders, platform workers, is there another side of this? And so this idea of platform authoritarianism is trying to wrestle with what I call the fictions of algorithmic ablism in a creator economy that there’s no nuanced conversation about. Disability and internet culture, but rather there’s a single narrative that kind of blurs the boundaries of any potential for nuance. And disability can be useful in authoritarian culture when it’s something that can be extracted from and exploited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She says it’s a familiar role but in a new world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> This is drawing on centuries of a practice that we’ve had in Western culture for a really long time, but platforms make it so much more palpable because it’s not just the village idiot that’s sequestered to this one space and we all laugh at them. Like, you’re the internet’s village idiot. And that’s very, very scary. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to recap, disabled creators are often shadow banned and suppressed, as shown by TikTok’s own moderation roles. When they do break through, it’s often to be ridiculed and mocked, like the sickfluencer debate. And some disabled creators have become career cows, turned into a modern digital freak show where they’re repeatedly exploited for entertainment. All of this drives engagement, which social media platforms profit off of. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Is there any way to stop fueling it? That is a new tap, how to fight algorithmic ableism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A common response to the stigma around disability is to flip the script, relabeling it as a strength. But that approach comes with its own issues. For example, Paris Hilton has been very public about her ADHD diagnosis and has been trying to rebrand neurodivergence. In 2024, she released this song called ADHD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Paris Hilton’s song “ADHD” from YouTube] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Paris Hilton: Look at me, I’m the best I can be. I was so down, thought I’d never be free. My super power was right inside, see… It was ADHD.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> She’s been raising money to support neurodivergent children with a merch line emblazoned with this motto, ADHD is my superpower. And last month, she hosted the Unstoppable Creator Summit, a day-long gathering of celebrities and creators who have ADHD and autism. It was packed with programming about portraying neurodivergence as a strength to be proud of. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> There were, like, a NeuroSpicy drinks bar, or this wall, content wall, where it’s like, here’s what my mind feels like. And it’s the whimsy trend, where all the jewels are the little doodads kind of clustered together. It’s cute and it’s fun, but it also is very dismissive of some of the real experiences of ADHD. And I think for me, my critique is disability isn’t a brand. And also, I think it’s really dangerous to brand it as a superpower because this really reads as a media event. It’s not really an awareness event. I think there’s a difference between empowerment and how disability can also be disabling. And it can impact your ability to work, to participate in life. And I don’t think that’s solved by having like a creator event. I’ve got a chance to learn from a lot of other disabled creators who are not upset because they weren’t invited, but because they want something better. There’s a better way to talk about disability. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess says that rebranding disability as a superpower is not helpful, but neither is framing disability as something to be fixed or overcome. Both of these approaches are dismissive of real experiences of disability. It’s important to recognize how societal barriers impact those experiences. Another way to talk about disability, according to Jess, is to really deconstruct who is seen as disabled. Another critique of Paris Hilton’s unstoppable summit was that the guest list was overwhelmingly white women. Disabilities are just as prevalent in non-white populations, but racial bias affects who gets support. Studies show that healthcare professionals prefer to treat disabled white people over disabled people of color. Disabled people of color are less likely to receive workplace accommodations than their white counterparts. Black, Latino, and non-English speaking children are less likely to be diagnosed with autism and less likely receive support in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I think that’s also reflected in diagnostic criteria. So like for ADHD or autism, a lot of the criteria for how people or how practitioners diagnose patients is based off of research that was largely conducted with white men, sometimes white women. So for black, brown, and indigenous neurodivergent or disabled people, it’s so much harder to be believed because so many people don’t understand disability or it’s been hidden for us for so long. We don’t think of it as part of larger political progression or larger liberation. But this has always been part of social justice movements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess points out that disability intersects with many other marginalized identities. The sickfluencer debate, for example, incited a fresh wave of harassment toward young people who are both queer and disabled. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> During a time when platforms are removing protections that prevent homophobic and transphobic hate speech, we also see like repeals of laws that maybe protect LGBTQ Americans. This kind of converges together or it’s like the ultimate dunking session where it’s, like, wow, this person has so many identities and they just want to be so oppressed. Like, you’re so different, I don’t understand you, and so you deserve to be humiliated. And now, you know, disabled creators are getting doxxed simply for wanting to exist a little bit differently. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Jess says it’s possible to opt out of the public pile-ons and digital freak shows. Just don’t take the bait. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> I think sometimes it’s a matter of logging off. Something that’s helped me at least is like, hmm, I’m having this kind of reaction to this content. Maybe I need to log off or I need to talk about it with somebody. So figuring out where to have these conversations is really important. Platforms want us to keep using TikTok or Instagram or X if you’re still on there or Blue Sky. And they encourage us to Keep talking. But sometimes talking in those spaces is not helpful because… The rage bait is only going to be rewarded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some of the details of the COVID conscious lesbian bar story were primed to be clipped and spread. The clown school part? Bound to go viral. But instead of remaining a one-off story about one specific bar in a small town, it snowballed into open season on any disabled person existing online. Jess said it didn’t have to be like this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Again, I’ve been ablelist, I’ve upheld some of these beliefs. I’ve been wrong. And when I have stepped away from the internet, believe it or not, it’s been helpful. Logging off and spending some time to think it through, not having a quick response has been helpful to not participate in algorithmic ableism, even when it feels really tempting to like, oh, I just want to dunk on this person. But at the end of the day, who wins? The platform companies win. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Refusing to engage with ableist content won’t address the whole system, but it does avoid giving platforms the engagement they crave. So you heard Jess, you can always log off. With that, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Close All Tabs is a production of KQED, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Francesca Fenzi, and edited by Chris Agusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon, additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PPT keycaps. This episode includes clips originally posted by these content creators: brettcooper, rudeboybrody, holdensmith962, charlotteswebtattoos, sackettc, allegedly_erin, juno_aventurine, overcookingmytoast, redblaquegolden, Heather Shaw, fleccastalks, and World of TShirts. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"Greenfield lesbian bar Last Ditch faces mask-rule backlash — Annalisa Quinn, The Boston Globe",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/history-of-ugly-laws-america-disability\">Illegal to be ’ugly’? The history behind one of America‘s cruelest laws\u003c/a> — \u003cem>National Geographic\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/\">TikTok Told Moderators: Suppress Posts by the “Ugly” and Poor\u003c/a> — Sam Biddle, Paulo Victor Ribeiro, Tatiana Dias, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hi, Tabby Cats. Do you have an internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity you’ve been wondering about? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate. Go to kqed.org/podcast/Close All Tabs, to submit your question. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hi, Tabby Cats. Do you have an internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity you’ve been wondering about? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate. Go to kqed.org/podcast/Close All Tabs, to submit your question. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey, just a note. This episode contains mentions of substance abuse and self-harm, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey, just a note. This episode contains mentions of substance abuse and self-harm, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last month, Last Ditch Bar and Arts Venue announced that it was closing its doors and seeking new ownership. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last month, Last Ditch Bar and Arts Venue announced that it was closing its doors and seeking new ownership. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Brett Cooper: Breaking news, I know that this is going to be just such a shock to everyone, but the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts has officially announced that they are closing. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Brett Cooper: Breaking news, I know that this is going to be just such a shock to everyone, but the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts has officially announced that they are closing. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>RudeBoyBrody: Have you heard of the COVID conscious lesbian bar on the verge of civil-war after going mask optional?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last Ditch, better known as the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts, was at the center of a super viral Boston Globe article in September. The bar had opened last year as a safe space for immunocompromised and COVID conscious queer people and required all patrons to wear a KN95 mask or better. But Last Ditch struggled to stay afloat. Between the slowing foot traffic and visitors not spending enough money at the bar, Last Ditch just couldn’t turn a profit. So, in an effort to attract more patrons, the bar announced that it would lift its masking policy on Saturdays. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last Ditch, better known as the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts, was at the center of a super viral Boston Globe article in September. The bar had opened last year as a safe space for immunocompromised and COVID conscious queer people and required all patrons to wear a KN95 mask or better. But Last Ditch struggled to stay afloat. Between the slowing foot traffic and visitors not spending enough money at the bar, Last Ditch just couldn’t turn a profit. So, in an effort to attract more patrons, the bar announced that it would lift its masking policy on Saturdays. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And it’s worth noting that this part of western Massachusetts, the Pioneer Valley, is very progressive and very queer, thanks to the concentration of liberal arts and women’s colleges. The Boston Globe article detailed the community firestorm that followed that announcement. Commenters on Instagram accused the bar of being complicit in a mass disabling event and claimed “people like you kill disabled people in the name of your own leisure and convenience.” In response, the bar hosted a mediation session with community members, which seemed to provoke detractors even more. This was ultimately a story about how community infighting and interpersonal drama derailed what was supposed to be an inclusive third space for queer people who practice COVID safety, at a time when lesbian bars in the U.S. are already dying out. The Globe article was packed with juicy details that were primed to go viral, like how one of the bar’s original owners stepped down to go to clown school. The story immediately sparked a ton of discourse within queer and disabled communities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And it’s worth noting that this part of western Massachusetts, the Pioneer Valley, is very progressive and very queer, thanks to the concentration of liberal arts and women’s colleges. The Boston Globe article detailed the community firestorm that followed that announcement. Commenters on Instagram accused the bar of being complicit in a mass disabling event and claimed “people like you kill disabled people in the name of your own leisure and convenience.” In response, the bar hosted a mediation session with community members, which seemed to provoke detractors even more. This was ultimately a story about how community infighting and interpersonal drama derailed what was supposed to be an inclusive third space for queer people who practice COVID safety, at a time when lesbian bars in the U.S. are already dying out. The Globe article was packed with juicy details that were primed to go viral, like how one of the bar’s original owners stepped down to go to clown school. The story immediately sparked a ton of discourse within queer and disabled communities. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>CharlottesWebTatoos: I need to sit down with a bunch of gay people and we need to break down this article sentence by sentence. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>CharlottesWebTatoos: I need to sit down with a bunch of gay people and we need to break down this article sentence by sentence. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Allegedly_Erin: And if I, a queer disabled woman, roll up to the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts sipping my iced coffee \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Allegedly_Erin: And if I, a queer disabled woman, roll up to the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts sipping my iced coffee \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Juno_Aventurine: I am not interested in making fun of or looking down on people who are COVID conscious, particularly not at immunocompromised people who want more spaces that are more accessible for them. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Juno_Aventurine: I am not interested in making fun of or looking down on people who are COVID conscious, particularly not at immunocompromised people who want more spaces that are more accessible for them. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>OvercookingMyToast: I lived in Western Massachusetts for many years. I am telling you right now that this situation would only fucking happen in Western Massachusets. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>OvercookingMyToast: I lived in Western Massachusetts for many years. I am telling you right now that this situation would only fucking happen in Western Massachusets. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But then, it broke containment. More mainstream outlets picked it up, and commenters on the left and on the right ran with it. And as more people outside the community got ahold of it, with social media algorithms fueling the spread, the context got lost. The discourse became less about the story itself and more about ridiculing disabled and COVID-conscious people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But then, it broke containment. More mainstream outlets picked it up, and commenters on the left and on the right ran with it. And as more people outside the community got ahold of it, with social media algorithms fueling the spread, the context got lost. The discourse became less about the story itself and more about ridiculing disabled and COVID-conscious people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> It becomes a way to stoke and instigate people’s rage or big emotions or reactions at the expense of, like, what was this very niche community conversation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> It becomes a way to stoke and instigate people’s rage or big emotions or reactions at the expense of, like, what was this very niche community conversation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Dr. Jess Rauschberg. She’s a lecturer at the University of Leeds and she studies the politics of the creator economy. And as Jess pointed out, the COVID conscious lesbian bar debacle happened amid a bigger cultural pylon of disabled people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Dr. Jess Rauschberg. She’s a lecturer at the University of Leeds and she studies the politics of the creator economy. And as Jess pointed out, the COVID conscious lesbian bar debacle happened amid a bigger cultural pylon of disabled people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>redblaquegolden: It’s been like over a week now, and we’re still having this conversation about this bar. Fundamentally, the thing that bothers me the most about this is that right now, the government is currently working on legislation that will make it a thousand times harder for people with disabilities to receive care in their homes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>redblaquegolden: It’s been like over a week now, and we’re still having this conversation about this bar. Fundamentally, the thing that bothers me the most about this is that right now, the government is currently working on legislation that will make it a thousand times harder for people with disabilities to receive care in their homes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This story about the drama in a small Western Massachusetts community snowballed out of control, pulling in other queer disabled people who had nothing to do with Last Ditch. Commenters accused creators of faking their disabilities for attention. Social media erupted in debate over young people using mobility aids, like canes. People who still mask in public spaces, whether it’s because they’re immunocompromised or just don’t wanna get sick, where he cried as too woke. Disabled people have long been a favorite target online, and social media has only accelerated that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This story about the drama in a small Western Massachusetts community snowballed out of control, pulling in other queer disabled people who had nothing to do with Last Ditch. Commenters accused creators of faking their disabilities for attention. Social media erupted in debate over young people using mobility aids, like canes. People who still mask in public spaces, whether it’s because they’re immunocompromised or just don’t wanna get sick, where he cried as too woke. Disabled people have long been a favorite target online, and social media has only accelerated that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> These platforms reward rage. Reward being upset, they reward big feelings or strong opinions, and they reward humiliation. I think of like an old school platform, that could be a gallow or like the place where you would hang somebody as a public spectacle. Okay, we still have that now with these digital platforms. Obviously, like, it doesn’t physically work the same way, but when you are the main character of the internet that everyone is turning on or you’re the digital punching bag, algorithmic ableism really, I think, intensifies that even more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> These platforms reward rage. Reward being upset, they reward big feelings or strong opinions, and they reward humiliation. I think of like an old school platform, that could be a gallow or like the place where you would hang somebody as a public spectacle. Okay, we still have that now with these digital platforms. Obviously, like, it doesn’t physically work the same way, but when you are the main character of the internet that everyone is turning on or you’re the digital punching bag, algorithmic ableism really, I think, intensifies that even more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Algorithmic Ableism. Jess coined the concept in a paper published last year to describe how social media recommendation algorithms discriminate against disabled people and uphold long-standing biases of who deserves to exist in public. She’s also writing a book about how algorithmic ableism shapes the creator economy. Today, we’re diving deep into what algorithmic ableism looks like in practice, how social-media platforms profit from it, and how the old spectacle of the ‘freak show’ has been reborn online. Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Algorithmic Ableism. Jess coined the concept in a paper published last year to describe how social media recommendation algorithms discriminate against disabled people and uphold long-standing biases of who deserves to exist in public. She’s also writing a book about how algorithmic ableism shapes the creator economy. Today, we’re diving deep into what algorithmic ableism looks like in practice, how social-media platforms profit from it, and how the old spectacle of the ‘freak show’ has been reborn online. Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung:, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung:, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like always, let’s open a new tab. What is algorithmic ableism? First, let’s talk about what ableism is. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like always, let’s open a new tab. What is algorithmic ableism? First, let’s talk about what ableism is. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So ableism can be defined in many ways. And I think of it as a form of political oppression that is really concentrated on the devaluation of bodily and cognitivie difference. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So ableism can be defined in many ways. And I think of it as a form of political oppression that is really concentrated on the devaluation of bodily and cognitivie difference. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This includes accessibility barriers, like train stations without lifts, which are inaccessible to wheelchair users, or public events without captions or sign language interpreters, so they exclude people who are deaf or hard of hearing. But underneath all of it are beliefs and biases — prejudice against bodily and cognitive differences — that bleed into every single aspect of society, both on and offline. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This includes accessibility barriers, like train stations without lifts, which are inaccessible to wheelchair users, or public events without captions or sign language interpreters, so they exclude people who are deaf or hard of hearing. But underneath all of it are beliefs and biases — prejudice against bodily and cognitive differences — that bleed into every single aspect of society, both on and offline. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For example, when creators post about asking for accommodations at airports, or post fit checks with their mobility aides, they’re accused of attention seeking. Comments like, just running around undiagnosed, or are you acoustic? Have become common responses to neurodivergent users. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For example, when creators post about asking for accommodations at airports, or post fit checks with their mobility aides, they’re accused of attention seeking. Comments like, just running around undiagnosed, or are you acoustic? Have become common responses to neurodivergent users. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Those ideas are so intrinsic to everything that we do online, to the ways that we program algorithmic recommendation infrastructures, to ways we believe we should treat each other in a comment section. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Those ideas are so intrinsic to everything that we do online, to the ways that we program algorithmic recommendation infrastructures, to ways we believe we should treat each other in a comment section. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess started thinking about algorithmic ableism almost 10 years ago, just before she started her PhD. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess started thinking about algorithmic ableism almost 10 years ago, just before she started her PhD. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> As a grad student, it felt really isolating and lonely sometimes when I wanted to share my experiences or just have someone to relate to about being disabled in graduate school. And I thought one day, I want to see who’s online and who can I connect with because maybe there has to be someone else out there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> As a grad student, it felt really isolating and lonely sometimes when I wanted to share my experiences or just have someone to relate to about being disabled in graduate school. And I thought one day, I want to see who’s online and who can I connect with because maybe there has to be someone else out there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess started posting under the handle, Disabled PhD. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess started posting under the handle, Disabled PhD. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I saw how, on the one hand, social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok and At the time, Twitter could be these really cool hubs for disabled and chronically ill and neurodivergent people to work, to play, to live, and find community when the offline world can be really inaccessible. But at the same time, the way algorithmic recommendation works, the way that we treat each other in platform environments is increasingly at the expense of disabled people existing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I saw how, on the one hand, social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok and At the time, Twitter could be these really cool hubs for disabled and chronically ill and neurodivergent people to work, to play, to live, and find community when the offline world can be really inaccessible. But at the same time, the way algorithmic recommendation works, the way that we treat each other in platform environments is increasingly at the expense of disabled people existing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She channeled her own experience as a disabled creator online into her academic research, and now, her upcoming book.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She channeled her own experience as a disabled creator online into her academic research, and now, her upcoming book.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> We’re in an environment where ableism and to be openly ableist is acceptable and it’s also encouraged by the platforms and that in turn is shaping how we treat each other. So like I often compare this to this idea of like, why do we treat each other like NPCs or non-playable characters from video games? It’s just so easy to dismiss them. It’s really easy to want to make assumptions about who they are because of like how I’ve received the ways they present themselves, that’s also tied to ableism too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> We’re in an environment where ableism and to be openly ableist is acceptable and it’s also encouraged by the platforms and that in turn is shaping how we treat each other. So like I often compare this to this idea of like, why do we treat each other like NPCs or non-playable characters from video games? It’s just so easy to dismiss them. It’s really easy to want to make assumptions about who they are because of like how I’ve received the ways they present themselves, that’s also tied to ableism too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is apparent in the way the COVID-conscious lesbian bar debate blew up. The discourse around disabilities had already been brewing online, separate from the bar fallout. A few weeks before the Boston Globe article propelled Last Ditch into the national spotlight, across the pond, the Telegraph published an op-ed titled “How Having a Disability Became Cool.” It claims that sickfluencers were turning chronic illness into a lifestyle trend. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is apparent in the way the COVID-conscious lesbian bar debate blew up. The discourse around disabilities had already been brewing online, separate from the bar fallout. A few weeks before the Boston Globe article propelled Last Ditch into the national spotlight, across the pond, the Telegraph published an op-ed titled “How Having a Disability Became Cool.” It claims that sickfluencers were turning chronic illness into a lifestyle trend. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And so sick influencers is kind of this derogatory term. It’s a way to kind of push back or devalue and dismiss influencers and content creators who make chronic illness, like advocacy or awareness content. It’s not new. I think essentially what this article did was basically accused being a chronic illness influencer as just this desire to participate in a trend that these people are faking it. That they’re scamming their audience, and that we are getting duped by these women who just really wanna be oppressed while they line their pockets. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And so sick influencers is kind of this derogatory term. It’s a way to kind of push back or devalue and dismiss influencers and content creators who make chronic illness, like advocacy or awareness content. It’s not new. I think essentially what this article did was basically accused being a chronic illness influencer as just this desire to participate in a trend that these people are faking it. That they’re scamming their audience, and that we are getting duped by these women who just really wanna be oppressed while they line their pockets. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The article highlighted a condition called POTS, Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, a nervous system disorder that affects blood flow. It causes rapid heart rate, dizziness when standing, extreme fatigue, brain fog, headaches, and fainting. There are medications that help, but treatments also include compression therapy, doing certain exercises to keep blood circulating, and increasing salt and fluid intake. However, the severity of pot symptoms can really vary, and some people manage flare-ups by using mobility aids like walkers and canes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The article highlighted a condition called POTS, Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, a nervous system disorder that affects blood flow. It causes rapid heart rate, dizziness when standing, extreme fatigue, brain fog, headaches, and fainting. There are medications that help, but treatments also include compression therapy, doing certain exercises to keep blood circulating, and increasing salt and fluid intake. However, the severity of pot symptoms can really vary, and some people manage flare-ups by using mobility aids like walkers and canes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The op-ed claimed that many so-called sickfluencers had diagnosed themselves with POTS and questioned whether they were also faking comorbidities like Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, chronic fatigue, and fibromyalgia. It insinuated that young women were playing up or even faking their disabilities for attention and clout. Soon enough, it was all over the internet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The op-ed claimed that many so-called sickfluencers had diagnosed themselves with POTS and questioned whether they were also faking comorbidities like Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, chronic fatigue, and fibromyalgia. It insinuated that young women were playing up or even faking their disabilities for attention and clout. Soon enough, it was all over the internet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @desmondfambrini] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @desmondfambrini] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Desmondfambrini: Why does everybody have a cane and a walker now? It’s driving me crazy. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Desmondfambrini: Why does everybody have a cane and a walker now? It’s driving me crazy. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @fleccastalks] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @fleccastalks] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fleccastalks: These are all people who are disabled for fun. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fleccastalks: These are all people who are disabled for fun. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @horriblemeanwoman] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @horriblemeanwoman] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>HeatherShaw: And how come every time I see somebody hop on TikTok and say that they can’t work because they have POTS and extreme migraines and fatigue and they can’t understand time so they just have to stay in their room in their pajamas and maybe their short hair and septum rings uh they can’t work. It’s always just a white lady.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>HeatherShaw: And how come every time I see somebody hop on TikTok and say that they can’t work because they have POTS and extreme migraines and fatigue and they can’t understand time so they just have to stay in their room in their pajamas and maybe their short hair and septum rings uh they can’t work. It’s always just a white lady.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That last clip was from comedian Heather Shaw, who is also white. She since deleted the video. Here’s Jess again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That last clip was from comedian Heather Shaw, who is also white. She since deleted the video. Here’s Jess again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> This is very fascinating how this all kind of happened within like a three to four week period. You have like this, why are all white women just like trying to cosplay as marginalized and saying they’re disabled or like they’re queer and why is it always a trope? So you have that discourse happening on TikTok. You have the Last Ditch bar discourse happening all over the internet. And then you have the Telegraph published this very controversial op-ed decrying sickfluencers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> This is very fascinating how this all kind of happened within like a three to four week period. You have like this, why are all white women just like trying to cosplay as marginalized and saying they’re disabled or like they’re queer and why is it always a trope? So you have that discourse happening on TikTok. You have the Last Ditch bar discourse happening all over the internet. And then you have the Telegraph published this very controversial op-ed decrying sickfluencers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In all of its speculation over the uptick in POTS cases among young women, the Telegraph op-ed neglected to mention that POTS has been directly linked to viral infections, like the flu, Epstein-Barr, and the big one: COVID. An estimated 40% of people with report having COVID months before their POTS symptoms started. A University of Toledo study analyzed medical records of more than 65 million Americans and found a dramatic surge in POTS cases between March 2020 and June 2025, a more than five times increase since the pandemic started. Other recent medical research has linked POT symptoms to autoimmune signals after infection. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In all of its speculation over the uptick in POTS cases among young women, the Telegraph op-ed neglected to mention that POTS has been directly linked to viral infections, like the flu, Epstein-Barr, and the big one: COVID. An estimated 40% of people with report having COVID months before their POTS symptoms started. A University of Toledo study analyzed medical records of more than 65 million Americans and found a dramatic surge in POTS cases between March 2020 and June 2025, a more than five times increase since the pandemic started. Other recent medical research has linked POT symptoms to autoimmune signals after infection. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> We kind of have glossed over the devastation of COVID and like how people are experiencing long COVID where POTS is a comorbidity for long COVID. So a lot of people have developed these chronic conditions from a mass disabling event. And I think we really forget that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> We kind of have glossed over the devastation of COVID and like how people are experiencing long COVID where POTS is a comorbidity for long COVID. So a lot of people have developed these chronic conditions from a mass disabling event. And I think we really forget that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> POTS also overlaps with multiple chronic illnesses and disabling conditions. Connective tissue disorders, for example, can impact circulation. As a nervous system condition, POTS is also linked to chronic pain and gastrointestinal issues. It also often presents with autoimmune conditions like lupus, celiac disease, and mast cell activation syndrome. So there’s a lot of overlap between people who have POT and other chronic illnesses, people who have mobility aids, and people who still wear masks to protect their immune systems. The Boston Globe story about Last Ditch just added fuel to the fire. It was like a perfect storm. And it created this online environment where any young person who used a mobility aid or wore a mask in public or even talked about having a disability was both accused of faking it and also ridiculed for having it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> POTS also overlaps with multiple chronic illnesses and disabling conditions. Connective tissue disorders, for example, can impact circulation. As a nervous system condition, POTS is also linked to chronic pain and gastrointestinal issues. It also often presents with autoimmune conditions like lupus, celiac disease, and mast cell activation syndrome. So there’s a lot of overlap between people who have POT and other chronic illnesses, people who have mobility aids, and people who still wear masks to protect their immune systems. The Boston Globe story about Last Ditch just added fuel to the fire. It was like a perfect storm. And it created this online environment where any young person who used a mobility aid or wore a mask in public or even talked about having a disability was both accused of faking it and also ridiculed for having it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> It’s not just like a really horrific example of algorithmic ableism, but the ways algorithmic ableism is tied to a larger rage bait economy and how the internet or like platform cultures are now not just a forum where we can all share our ideas and show up and maybe we disagree and maybe there are arguments, but at the end of the day, we’re all participating fully. This is like being in a gladiators arena where you get to watch somebody else’s humiliation public punishment and you seek pleasure from that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> It’s not just like a really horrific example of algorithmic ableism, but the ways algorithmic ableism is tied to a larger rage bait economy and how the internet or like platform cultures are now not just a forum where we can all share our ideas and show up and maybe we disagree and maybe there are arguments, but at the end of the day, we’re all participating fully. This is like being in a gladiators arena where you get to watch somebody else’s humiliation public punishment and you seek pleasure from that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that spectacle becomes more enticing when stories like Last Ditch go through something called context collapse. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that spectacle becomes more enticing when stories like Last Ditch go through something called context collapse. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Knowing a little bit personally about the cultural context this comes from, this is like a really niche community disagreement that became central to a national news story, right? It’s covered in the Boston Globe, but then it travels online. And so now you’re bringing in all these other people who have no experience with like Western Massachusetts lesbian culture or like COVID conscious culture. And now it’s like, everyone gets a chance to dunk on these people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Knowing a little bit personally about the cultural context this comes from, this is like a really niche community disagreement that became central to a national news story, right? It’s covered in the Boston Globe, but then it travels online. And so now you’re bringing in all these other people who have no experience with like Western Massachusetts lesbian culture or like COVID conscious culture. And now it’s like, everyone gets a chance to dunk on these people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And social platforms themselves profit off this rage because it drives engagement. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And social platforms themselves profit off this rage because it drives engagement. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And then when these perfect storm stories happen, platform economies reward the rage because TikTok, Instagram, X, they’re not really making money off of existing as a platform. They kind of exist as the space that hosts user-generated content. And the more traffic, the more attention they can bring to the platform by hosting a viral discourse or being the spot where the top creators and influencers are working. That’s not just lucrative to the platform, it’s also lucrative to the advertisers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And then when these perfect storm stories happen, platform economies reward the rage because TikTok, Instagram, X, they’re not really making money off of existing as a platform. They kind of exist as the space that hosts user-generated content. And the more traffic, the more attention they can bring to the platform by hosting a viral discourse or being the spot where the top creators and influencers are working. That’s not just lucrative to the platform, it’s also lucrative to the advertisers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a vicious cycle. The people doing the mocking and the people being mocked are feeding the same content machine. Platforms profit off of all of it. All of this intersects with this other online phenomenon that Jess has researched extensively, lolcows. LOL as in L-O-L like laughing out loud and cow as in something to be milked. A lolcow is someone who goes viral for their eccentric behavior and is seen as a laughingstock. Audiences mock them to provoke more reactions. The idea is that their discomfort is milked for entertainment. Often, the people the internet labels as lolcows are disabled, many with an intellectual or developmental disability. It’s about who’s easiest to target. They go viral for looking different and behaving in a way that the audience sees as cringe, depraved, or otherwise socially unacceptable. People dunk on them, and then they keep going viral because their reactions are seen as more entertainment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a vicious cycle. The people doing the mocking and the people being mocked are feeding the same content machine. Platforms profit off of all of it. All of this intersects with this other online phenomenon that Jess has researched extensively, lolcows. LOL as in L-O-L like laughing out loud and cow as in something to be milked. A lolcow is someone who goes viral for their eccentric behavior and is seen as a laughingstock. Audiences mock them to provoke more reactions. The idea is that their discomfort is milked for entertainment. Often, the people the internet labels as lolcows are disabled, many with an intellectual or developmental disability. It’s about who’s easiest to target. They go viral for looking different and behaving in a way that the audience sees as cringe, depraved, or otherwise socially unacceptable. People dunk on them, and then they keep going viral because their reactions are seen as more entertainment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from World of Tshirts on YouTube] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from World of Tshirts on YouTube] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: Get that camera out of my face! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: Get that camera out of my face! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Although algorithmic ableism is a relatively new phenomenon, Jess says the concept of lolcows isn’t. Audiences have turned people into spectacle for entertainment throughout human history. Writings about the so-called village fool date back thousands of years. That history and the modern lolcow phenomenon is a whole new tab, which we’ll open right after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Although algorithmic ableism is a relatively new phenomenon, Jess says the concept of lolcows isn’t. Audiences have turned people into spectacle for entertainment throughout human history. Writings about the so-called village fool date back thousands of years. That history and the modern lolcow phenomenon is a whole new tab, which we’ll open right after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqd.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, the long history of disability as entertainment and how the internet ran with it. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqd.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, the long history of disability as entertainment and how the internet ran with it. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’re back! Let’s open a new tab, the History of Lolcow-ification. Although algorithmic ableism and the word lolcow itself are consequences of the digital age, none of this is that new. It’s inherited from centuries of hiding disabled people away. When disabled people were allowed to exist in public, they were often exploited, frequently put on display for a laughing crowd. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’re back! Let’s open a new tab, the History of Lolcow-ification. Although algorithmic ableism and the word lolcow itself are consequences of the digital age, none of this is that new. It’s inherited from centuries of hiding disabled people away. When disabled people were allowed to exist in public, they were often exploited, frequently put on display for a laughing crowd. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Like Medieval Europe and Renaissance Europe had fools, so nobles would keep these people who were oftentimes we would probably understand them now to be autistic or developmentally disabled. And they were kind of kept as pets during a feast or some kind of big event. You would bring out the fool and you would just like laugh at them and you would interact with them. And it was entertaining. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Like Medieval Europe and Renaissance Europe had fools, so nobles would keep these people who were oftentimes we would probably understand them now to be autistic or developmentally disabled. And they were kind of kept as pets during a feast or some kind of big event. You would bring out the fool and you would just like laugh at them and you would interact with them. And it was entertaining. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Fast forward to Europe’s so-called Age of Enlightenment, from the late 1600s to the early 1800s, when cities began locking people away for lunacy. In other words, incarcerating people who were dealing with mental illness or disability. In addition to subjecting patients to horrific living conditions and barbaric treatments, some of these asylums also put them on display. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Fast forward to Europe’s so-called Age of Enlightenment, from the late 1600s to the early 1800s, when cities began locking people away for lunacy. In other words, incarcerating people who were dealing with mental illness or disability. In addition to subjecting patients to horrific living conditions and barbaric treatments, some of these asylums also put them on display. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> London’s very infamous Bethlehem Asylum had viewing days. So on Sundays after church, you could go to Bethlehems, give a few pence and go watch the patients on display in like these caged rooms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> London’s very infamous Bethlehem Asylum had viewing days. So on Sundays after church, you could go to Bethlehems, give a few pence and go watch the patients on display in like these caged rooms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For centuries, people with physical disabilities like dwarfism had been put on display at provincial fairs, often with little say in it. By the mid-1800s, P.T. Barnum had turned that display into a commercial spectacle with his freak shows. He came up with wild backstories for performers, like claiming that a black man with microcephaly was the missing link in human evolution. His real name was William Henry Johnson, but audiences only knew him as Zip the Pinhead. Prince Randian, a Guyanese American man born without arms or legs, drew massive crowds as the Human Caterpillar. As part of his performance, he would roll and light a cigarette using only his mouth. Chang and Eng Bunker, conjoined twins from Thailand who were brought to the U.S. As teenagers, became freak show celebrities as the Siamese Twins. At the same time, in everyday life, disabled people were often kept out of sight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For centuries, people with physical disabilities like dwarfism had been put on display at provincial fairs, often with little say in it. By the mid-1800s, P.T. Barnum had turned that display into a commercial spectacle with his freak shows. He came up with wild backstories for performers, like claiming that a black man with microcephaly was the missing link in human evolution. His real name was William Henry Johnson, but audiences only knew him as Zip the Pinhead. Prince Randian, a Guyanese American man born without arms or legs, drew massive crowds as the Human Caterpillar. As part of his performance, he would roll and light a cigarette using only his mouth. Chang and Eng Bunker, conjoined twins from Thailand who were brought to the U.S. As teenagers, became freak show celebrities as the Siamese Twins. At the same time, in everyday life, disabled people were often kept out of sight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So you have people whose labor and public appearance is hidden in other aspects of life because this is during the time of ugly laws but you’re also a form of entertainment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So you have people whose labor and public appearance is hidden in other aspects of life because this is during the time of ugly laws but you’re also a form of entertainment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ugly laws were first implemented in San Francisco, just after the Civil War. Also known as unsightly beggar ordinances, they targeted people with visible disabilities or disfigurements, banning them from public spaces. Violators could be jailed or institutionalized. This wasn’t just about cracking down on panhandling. It was about enforcing social norms by pretending that disabled people just didn’t exist. The last ugly laws were repealed in 1974, but they were part of a much larger pattern of excluding disabled people from daily life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ugly laws were first implemented in San Francisco, just after the Civil War. Also known as unsightly beggar ordinances, they targeted people with visible disabilities or disfigurements, banning them from public spaces. Violators could be jailed or institutionalized. This wasn’t just about cracking down on panhandling. It was about enforcing social norms by pretending that disabled people just didn’t exist. The last ugly laws were repealed in 1974, but they were part of a much larger pattern of excluding disabled people from daily life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> With these social norms in place, and in some cases, legally enforced, freak shows were one of the few ways that disabled people could make a living. Some even achieved financial stability and were able to retire comfortably, at the cost of being mocked and ogled at every day for years. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> With these social norms in place, and in some cases, legally enforced, freak shows were one of the few ways that disabled people could make a living. Some even achieved financial stability and were able to retire comfortably, at the cost of being mocked and ogled at every day for years. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Social media platforms have had their own version of ugly laws. In 2019, the German digital rights news outlet NetzPolitik published a bombshell investigation revealing that TikTok had told its moderators to suppress content from people with disabilities, facial disfigurement, or facial problems. TikTok said that such users were, quote, susceptible to bullying or harassment based on their physical or mental condition. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Social media platforms have had their own version of ugly laws. In 2019, the German digital rights news outlet NetzPolitik published a bombshell investigation revealing that TikTok had told its moderators to suppress content from people with disabilities, facial disfigurement, or facial problems. TikTok said that such users were, quote, susceptible to bullying or harassment based on their physical or mental condition. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok called the guidelines a blunt and temporary policy and said that they have since changed their anti-bullying methods. But later reporting from other outlets revealed that TikTok also didn’t want to scare away new users by allowing them to see disabled people on their For You page. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok called the guidelines a blunt and temporary policy and said that they have since changed their anti-bullying methods. But later reporting from other outlets revealed that TikTok also didn’t want to scare away new users by allowing them to see disabled people on their For You page. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did it actually stop the harassment? Well, no. It’s a legacy of ableism adapted to a new medium. Platforms have a pattern of hiding disabled creators. Until the creators are being ridiculed. Then the platforms amplify their content. It echoes the same dynamic that existed in the era of freak shows. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did it actually stop the harassment? Well, no. It’s a legacy of ableism adapted to a new medium. Platforms have a pattern of hiding disabled creators. Until the creators are being ridiculed. Then the platforms amplify their content. It echoes the same dynamic that existed in the era of freak shows. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So you would go to fairs or carnivals and you could go into the House of the Freaks. And your difference, whether it’s cognitive or bodily or a combination of both, is something to be on display. And that was a form of amusement for the viewer. So obviously we don’t have freak shows quite like that anymore, but I would argue that our entertainment media industries are really bent on this idea of freakery. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So you would go to fairs or carnivals and you could go into the House of the Freaks. And your difference, whether it’s cognitive or bodily or a combination of both, is something to be on display. And that was a form of amusement for the viewer. So obviously we don’t have freak shows quite like that anymore, but I would argue that our entertainment media industries are really bent on this idea of freakery. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That brings us to the late 2000s, when the internet gave this old idea a new name. The Lolcow. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That brings us to the late 2000s, when the internet gave this old idea a new name. The Lolcow. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Lolcow culture was something that was kind of sequestered to the bowels of the web, the 4chans, the Something Awfuls, the Kiwi Farms. And these were people who on messaging boards would antagonize these people who it was funny to see them react. We could say that the instigation of these early locales like Chris Chan or Chris Weston was an early form of reach bait. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Lolcow culture was something that was kind of sequestered to the bowels of the web, the 4chans, the Something Awfuls, the Kiwi Farms. And these were people who on messaging boards would antagonize these people who it was funny to see them react. We could say that the instigation of these early locales like Chris Chan or Chris Weston was an early form of reach bait. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Chris Chan is often called the original lolcow. She’s an autistic trans woman who first went viral in 2007 with her comic series about Sonichu, an anime-inspired character that blended Pikachu with Sonic the Hedgehog. The comic was amateur, and 4chan users mocked her relentlessly for it, but when she responded to the trolls, every reaction gave them more to work with. She’s been involved in a string of controversy since then, but has also been a target of ridicule and harassment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Chris Chan is often called the original lolcow. She’s an autistic trans woman who first went viral in 2007 with her comic series about Sonichu, an anime-inspired character that blended Pikachu with Sonic the Hedgehog. The comic was amateur, and 4chan users mocked her relentlessly for it, but when she responded to the trolls, every reaction gave them more to work with. She’s been involved in a string of controversy since then, but has also been a target of ridicule and harassment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> But now, lolcow culture is not just on these messaging boards that have a bad rap. Some lolcows have been able to work and profit and make some kind of living off of their exploitation and humiliation. And not exclusively, but overwhelmingly, a lot of these little cows are developmentally disabled or autistic or neurodivergent and have high support needs or like appear to be from what we see online. But a lot of these lolcows aren’t just on social media platforms, they live stream. And so you can watch like every day, hours of footage of the lolcow. And this has kind of evolved into like a new form of lolcow that we might call a career cow. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> But now, lolcow culture is not just on these messaging boards that have a bad rap. Some lolcows have been able to work and profit and make some kind of living off of their exploitation and humiliation. And not exclusively, but overwhelmingly, a lot of these little cows are developmentally disabled or autistic or neurodivergent and have high support needs or like appear to be from what we see online. But a lot of these lolcows aren’t just on social media platforms, they live stream. And so you can watch like every day, hours of footage of the lolcow. And this has kind of evolved into like a new form of lolcow that we might call a career cow. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A career cow is someone who makes money off of being a lolcow. Unlike Chris Chan, they’re not some random person that the internet picks up and mocks. This is specifically someone who make content and makes a living out of it. One of the most well-known career cows is Joshua Block, a content creator also known as World of TShirts. He originally went viral for giving drunk tours of New York City on camera and became something of a niche local celebrity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A career cow is someone who makes money off of being a lolcow. Unlike Chris Chan, they’re not some random person that the internet picks up and mocks. This is specifically someone who make content and makes a living out of it. One of the most well-known career cows is Joshua Block, a content creator also known as World of TShirts. He originally went viral for giving drunk tours of New York City on camera and became something of a niche local celebrity. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @alexholem] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @alexholem] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 1: Just chilling here, getting drunk with the captain. What words you got to say to them? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 1: Just chilling here, getting drunk with the captain. What words you got to say to them? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: We’re getting drunk tonight. Yes, sir! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: We’re getting drunk tonight. Yes, sir! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Josh is autistic, and viewers quickly realized that he had a serious substance abuse problem. Other streamers would take him out, get him wasted, and prompt him to do or say things for the camera. He became known for saying this meme phrase at McDonald’s. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Josh is autistic, and viewers quickly realized that he had a serious substance abuse problem. Other streamers would take him out, get him wasted, and prompt him to do or say things for the camera. He became known for saying this meme phrase at McDonald’s. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @crashingbad] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @crashingbad] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 2: So then you could be like, put the fries in the bag. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 2: So then you could be like, put the fries in the bag. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: Put the fries in the bag! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: Put the fries in the bag! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But the phrase became a taunt. When bystanders saw him live streaming in real life, they’d run up to him and yell. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But the phrase became a taunt. When bystanders saw him live streaming in real life, they’d run up to him and yell. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 3: Put the fries in the bag!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 3: Put the fries in the bag!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: How did you find me again?! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: How did you find me again?! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which would really upset him, and his meltdowns became fodder for streamers to entertain viewers. Videos titled Josh Block Crash Out rarely went viral on TikTok. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which would really upset him, and his meltdowns became fodder for streamers to entertain viewers. Videos titled Josh Block Crash Out rarely went viral on TikTok. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And so he would engage, when he would be instigated by his live stream comments, what’s called the text-to-speech feature. So I pay $10 and I say something or rage bait Josh Block and he would bite himself or punch himself or start screaming. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And so he would engage, when he would be instigated by his live stream comments, what’s called the text-to-speech feature. So I pay $10 and I say something or rage bait Josh Block and he would bite himself or punch himself or start screaming. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @lolcownews5] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @lolcownews5] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Text to speech: Put the fries in the bag, you unemployed- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Text to speech: Put the fries in the bag, you unemployed- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: I’m not! Ah, ah. No, no, no! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: I’m not! Ah, ah. No, no, no! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 4: Oh god, you just threw it on the screen, Josh! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 4: Oh god, you just threw it on the screen, Josh! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Tip beep]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Tip beep]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And people would watch us for hours and days and days on end and they would follow his antics and his movements closely. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And people would watch us for hours and days and days on end and they would follow his antics and his movements closely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For years, Josh would livestream his binge drinking. His chat sent him cash tips to buy himself more drinks or would provoke him into an on-camera meltdown. Other streamers made content out of partying with him while viewers showed up in person to give him more alcohol. His drinking often spiraled out of control, which became even more content. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For years, Josh would livestream his binge drinking. His chat sent him cash tips to buy himself more drinks or would provoke him into an on-camera meltdown. Other streamers made content out of partying with him while viewers showed up in person to give him more alcohol. His drinking often spiraled out of control, which became even more content. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Following an arrest in California, Josh went to attend a court ordered rehab program earlier this year. He announced that he has to abstain from drinking for one year to avoid further charges. But he did resume streaming and said that he plans to resume drinking when he’s legally cleared. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Following an arrest in California, Josh went to attend a court ordered rehab program earlier this year. He announced that he has to abstain from drinking for one year to avoid further charges. But he did resume streaming and said that he plans to resume drinking when he’s legally cleared. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok] \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok] \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: When all that is over, I’ll just do it in moderation. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Josh Block: When all that is over, I’ll just do it in moderation. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 5: In moderation, that’s his plan. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 5: In moderation, that’s his plan. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 6: Of course. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 6: Of course. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 5: To drink in moderation. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Streamer 5: To drink in moderation. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> When Josh said he plans to drink again, viewers celebrated. With comments like, we’re so back, and knew the sobriety thing was too good to be true. Jess says this is part of a broader pattern. Earlier this year, she published a paper on platform authoritarianism, the idea that digital spaces are fueled by suppressive, surveillance-based practices. Platform authoritarianism is the use of algorithms and censorship to maintain power. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> When Josh said he plans to drink again, viewers celebrated. With comments like, we’re so back, and knew the sobriety thing was too good to be true. Jess says this is part of a broader pattern. Earlier this year, she published a paper on platform authoritarianism, the idea that digital spaces are fueled by suppressive, surveillance-based practices. Platform authoritarianism is the use of algorithms and censorship to maintain power. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I kind of looked at this from the lens of disability in class. So if ableism in the creator economy, algorithmic ableism, devalues or dismisses the contributions of disabled creators, influencers, street builders, platform workers, is there another side of this? And so this idea of platform authoritarianism is trying to wrestle with what I call the fictions of algorithmic ablism in a creator economy that there’s no nuanced conversation about. Disability and internet culture, but rather there’s a single narrative that kind of blurs the boundaries of any potential for nuance. And disability can be useful in authoritarian culture when it’s something that can be extracted from and exploited. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I kind of looked at this from the lens of disability in class. So if ableism in the creator economy, algorithmic ableism, devalues or dismisses the contributions of disabled creators, influencers, street builders, platform workers, is there another side of this? And so this idea of platform authoritarianism is trying to wrestle with what I call the fictions of algorithmic ablism in a creator economy that there’s no nuanced conversation about. Disability and internet culture, but rather there’s a single narrative that kind of blurs the boundaries of any potential for nuance. And disability can be useful in authoritarian culture when it’s something that can be extracted from and exploited. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She says it’s a familiar role but in a new world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She says it’s a familiar role but in a new world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> This is drawing on centuries of a practice that we’ve had in Western culture for a really long time, but platforms make it so much more palpable because it’s not just the village idiot that’s sequestered to this one space and we all laugh at them. Like, you’re the internet’s village idiot. And that’s very, very scary. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> This is drawing on centuries of a practice that we’ve had in Western culture for a really long time, but platforms make it so much more palpable because it’s not just the village idiot that’s sequestered to this one space and we all laugh at them. Like, you’re the internet’s village idiot. And that’s very, very scary. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to recap, disabled creators are often shadow banned and suppressed, as shown by TikTok’s own moderation roles. When they do break through, it’s often to be ridiculed and mocked, like the sickfluencer debate. And some disabled creators have become career cows, turned into a modern digital freak show where they’re repeatedly exploited for entertainment. All of this drives engagement, which social media platforms profit off of. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to recap, disabled creators are often shadow banned and suppressed, as shown by TikTok’s own moderation roles. When they do break through, it’s often to be ridiculed and mocked, like the sickfluencer debate. And some disabled creators have become career cows, turned into a modern digital freak show where they’re repeatedly exploited for entertainment. All of this drives engagement, which social media platforms profit off of. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Is there any way to stop fueling it? That is a new tap, how to fight algorithmic ableism. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Is there any way to stop fueling it? That is a new tap, how to fight algorithmic ableism. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A common response to the stigma around disability is to flip the script, relabeling it as a strength. But that approach comes with its own issues. For example, Paris Hilton has been very public about her ADHD diagnosis and has been trying to rebrand neurodivergence. In 2024, she released this song called ADHD. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Paris Hilton: Look at me, I’m the best I can be. I was so down, thought I’d never be free. My super power was right inside, see… It was ADHD.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Paris Hilton: Look at me, I’m the best I can be. I was so down, thought I’d never be free. My super power was right inside, see… It was ADHD.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> She’s been raising money to support neurodivergent children with a merch line emblazoned with this motto, ADHD is my superpower. And last month, she hosted the Unstoppable Creator Summit, a day-long gathering of celebrities and creators who have ADHD and autism. It was packed with programming about portraying neurodivergence as a strength to be proud of. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> She’s been raising money to support neurodivergent children with a merch line emblazoned with this motto, ADHD is my superpower. And last month, she hosted the Unstoppable Creator Summit, a day-long gathering of celebrities and creators who have ADHD and autism. It was packed with programming about portraying neurodivergence as a strength to be proud of. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> There were, like, a NeuroSpicy drinks bar, or this wall, content wall, where it’s like, here’s what my mind feels like. And it’s the whimsy trend, where all the jewels are the little doodads kind of clustered together. It’s cute and it’s fun, but it also is very dismissive of some of the real experiences of ADHD. And I think for me, my critique is disability isn’t a brand. And also, I think it’s really dangerous to brand it as a superpower because this really reads as a media event. It’s not really an awareness event. I think there’s a difference between empowerment and how disability can also be disabling. And it can impact your ability to work, to participate in life. And I don’t think that’s solved by having like a creator event. I’ve got a chance to learn from a lot of other disabled creators who are not upset because they weren’t invited, but because they want something better. There’s a better way to talk about disability. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> There were, like, a NeuroSpicy drinks bar, or this wall, content wall, where it’s like, here’s what my mind feels like. And it’s the whimsy trend, where all the jewels are the little doodads kind of clustered together. It’s cute and it’s fun, but it also is very dismissive of some of the real experiences of ADHD. And I think for me, my critique is disability isn’t a brand. And also, I think it’s really dangerous to brand it as a superpower because this really reads as a media event. It’s not really an awareness event. I think there’s a difference between empowerment and how disability can also be disabling. And it can impact your ability to work, to participate in life. And I don’t think that’s solved by having like a creator event. I’ve got a chance to learn from a lot of other disabled creators who are not upset because they weren’t invited, but because they want something better. There’s a better way to talk about disability. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess says that rebranding disability as a superpower is not helpful, but neither is framing disability as something to be fixed or overcome. Both of these approaches are dismissive of real experiences of disability. It’s important to recognize how societal barriers impact those experiences. Another way to talk about disability, according to Jess, is to really deconstruct who is seen as disabled. Another critique of Paris Hilton’s unstoppable summit was that the guest list was overwhelmingly white women. Disabilities are just as prevalent in non-white populations, but racial bias affects who gets support. Studies show that healthcare professionals prefer to treat disabled white people over disabled people of color. Disabled people of color are less likely to receive workplace accommodations than their white counterparts. Black, Latino, and non-English speaking children are less likely to be diagnosed with autism and less likely receive support in school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess says that rebranding disability as a superpower is not helpful, but neither is framing disability as something to be fixed or overcome. Both of these approaches are dismissive of real experiences of disability. It’s important to recognize how societal barriers impact those experiences. Another way to talk about disability, according to Jess, is to really deconstruct who is seen as disabled. Another critique of Paris Hilton’s unstoppable summit was that the guest list was overwhelmingly white women. Disabilities are just as prevalent in non-white populations, but racial bias affects who gets support. Studies show that healthcare professionals prefer to treat disabled white people over disabled people of color. Disabled people of color are less likely to receive workplace accommodations than their white counterparts. Black, Latino, and non-English speaking children are less likely to be diagnosed with autism and less likely receive support in school. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I think that’s also reflected in diagnostic criteria. So like for ADHD or autism, a lot of the criteria for how people or how practitioners diagnose patients is based off of research that was largely conducted with white men, sometimes white women. So for black, brown, and indigenous neurodivergent or disabled people, it’s so much harder to be believed because so many people don’t understand disability or it’s been hidden for us for so long. We don’t think of it as part of larger political progression or larger liberation. But this has always been part of social justice movements. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I think that’s also reflected in diagnostic criteria. So like for ADHD or autism, a lot of the criteria for how people or how practitioners diagnose patients is based off of research that was largely conducted with white men, sometimes white women. So for black, brown, and indigenous neurodivergent or disabled people, it’s so much harder to be believed because so many people don’t understand disability or it’s been hidden for us for so long. We don’t think of it as part of larger political progression or larger liberation. But this has always been part of social justice movements. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess points out that disability intersects with many other marginalized identities. The sickfluencer debate, for example, incited a fresh wave of harassment toward young people who are both queer and disabled. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess points out that disability intersects with many other marginalized identities. The sickfluencer debate, for example, incited a fresh wave of harassment toward young people who are both queer and disabled. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> During a time when platforms are removing protections that prevent homophobic and transphobic hate speech, we also see like repeals of laws that maybe protect LGBTQ Americans. This kind of converges together or it’s like the ultimate dunking session where it’s, like, wow, this person has so many identities and they just want to be so oppressed. Like, you’re so different, I don’t understand you, and so you deserve to be humiliated. And now, you know, disabled creators are getting doxxed simply for wanting to exist a little bit differently. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> During a time when platforms are removing protections that prevent homophobic and transphobic hate speech, we also see like repeals of laws that maybe protect LGBTQ Americans. This kind of converges together or it’s like the ultimate dunking session where it’s, like, wow, this person has so many identities and they just want to be so oppressed. Like, you’re so different, I don’t understand you, and so you deserve to be humiliated. And now, you know, disabled creators are getting doxxed simply for wanting to exist a little bit differently. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Jess says it’s possible to opt out of the public pile-ons and digital freak shows. Just don’t take the bait. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Jess says it’s possible to opt out of the public pile-ons and digital freak shows. Just don’t take the bait. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> I think sometimes it’s a matter of logging off. Something that’s helped me at least is like, hmm, I’m having this kind of reaction to this content. Maybe I need to log off or I need to talk about it with somebody. So figuring out where to have these conversations is really important. Platforms want us to keep using TikTok or Instagram or X if you’re still on there or Blue Sky. And they encourage us to Keep talking. But sometimes talking in those spaces is not helpful because… The rage bait is only going to be rewarded. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> I think sometimes it’s a matter of logging off. Something that’s helped me at least is like, hmm, I’m having this kind of reaction to this content. Maybe I need to log off or I need to talk about it with somebody. So figuring out where to have these conversations is really important. Platforms want us to keep using TikTok or Instagram or X if you’re still on there or Blue Sky. And they encourage us to Keep talking. But sometimes talking in those spaces is not helpful because… The rage bait is only going to be rewarded. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some of the details of the COVID conscious lesbian bar story were primed to be clipped and spread. The clown school part? Bound to go viral. But instead of remaining a one-off story about one specific bar in a small town, it snowballed into open season on any disabled person existing online. Jess said it didn’t have to be like this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some of the details of the COVID conscious lesbian bar story were primed to be clipped and spread. The clown school part? Bound to go viral. But instead of remaining a one-off story about one specific bar in a small town, it snowballed into open season on any disabled person existing online. Jess said it didn’t have to be like this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Again, I’ve been ablelist, I’ve upheld some of these beliefs. I’ve been wrong. And when I have stepped away from the internet, believe it or not, it’s been helpful. Logging off and spending some time to think it through, not having a quick response has been helpful to not participate in algorithmic ableism, even when it feels really tempting to like, oh, I just want to dunk on this person. But at the end of the day, who wins? The platform companies win. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Again, I’ve been ablelist, I’ve upheld some of these beliefs. I’ve been wrong. And when I have stepped away from the internet, believe it or not, it’s been helpful. Logging off and spending some time to think it through, not having a quick response has been helpful to not participate in algorithmic ableism, even when it feels really tempting to like, oh, I just want to dunk on this person. But at the end of the day, who wins? The platform companies win. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Refusing to engage with ableist content won’t address the whole system, but it does avoid giving platforms the engagement they crave. So you heard Jess, you can always log off. With that, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Refusing to engage with ableist content won’t address the whole system, but it does avoid giving platforms the engagement they crave. So you heard Jess, you can always log off. With that, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Close All Tabs is a production of KQED, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Francesca Fenzi, and edited by Chris Agusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Close All Tabs is a production of KQED, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Francesca Fenzi, and edited by Chris Agusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon, additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon, additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PPT keycaps. This episode includes clips originally posted by these content creators: brettcooper, rudeboybrody, holdensmith962, charlotteswebtattoos, sackettc, allegedly_erin, juno_aventurine, overcookingmytoast, redblaquegolden, Heather Shaw, fleccastalks, and World of TShirts. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PPT keycaps. This episode includes clips originally posted by these content creators: brettcooper, rudeboybrody, holdensmith962, charlotteswebtattoos, sackettc, allegedly_erin, juno_aventurine, overcookingmytoast, redblaquegolden, Heather Shaw, fleccastalks, and World of TShirts. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When viral stories like the Last Ditch bar masking controversy and the “sickfluencer” debate whipped the internet into a frenzy, disabled people found themselves in the crosshairs. Researcher and creator Jess Rauchberg saw a common driver behind the vitriol: algorithmic ableism. The term describes how social media platforms and their algorithms suppress disabled creators while amplifying ridicule of them. Jess has seen it first hand as a disabled content creator, and has explored it in a research paper and an upcoming book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Morgan talks with Jess about the history of disabled people in public life, how some people with disabilities get turned into “lolcows,” how algorithms push ableist rage, and why social media platforms are the ones who come out on top.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessrauchberg.com/\">Dr. Jess Rauchberg\u003c/a>, creator culture expert and lecturer at the University of Leeds\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bostonglobe.com/2026/09/22/magazine/greenfield-last-ditch-bar-backlash/\">Greenfield lesbian bar Last Ditch faces mask-rule backlash\u003c/a> — Annalisa Quinn, \u003cem>The Boston Globe\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/the-insidious-world-of-lolcows\">The Insidious World of Lolcows\u003c/a> — Emily Topping, \u003cem>Current Affairs\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://passionfru.it/the-worldoftshirts-review-10862/\">An Honest Review of the WorldofTShirts Experience\u003c/a> — Steven Asarch, \u003cem>Passionfruit\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/history-of-ugly-laws-america-disability\">Illegal to be ’ugly’? The history behind one of America‘s cruelest laws\u003c/a> — \u003cem>National Geographic\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09589236.2025.2477116\">Articulating algorithmic ableism: the suppression and surveillance of disabled TikTok creators\u003c/a> — Jess Rauchberg, \u003cem>Journal of Gender Studies, Volume 34,\u003c/em> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/cjgs20/34/8\">\u003cem>Issue 8\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/long-ignored-syndrome-drawing-unprecedented-attention-2026a1001531?form=fpf\">A Long-Ignored Syndrome Is Drawing Unprecedented Attention\u003c/a> — Laurie Tarkan, \u003cem>Medscape\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/\">TikTok Told Moderators: Suppress Posts by the “Ugly” and Poor\u003c/a> — Sam Biddle, Paulo Victor Ribeiro, Tatiana Dias, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/article/2026/11/08/no-one-should-be-shamed-for-using-a-mobility-aid/\">No One Should Be Shamed for Using a Mobility Aid\u003c/a> — Nicole Clark, \u003cem>TIME\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hi, Tabby Cats. Do you have an internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity you’ve been wondering about? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate. Go to kqed.org/podcast/Close All Tabs, to submit your question. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey, just a note. This episode contains mentions of substance abuse and self-harm, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last month, Last Ditch Bar and Arts Venue announced that it was closing its doors and seeking new ownership. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @brettcooper] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Brett Cooper: Breaking news, I know that this is going to be just such a shock to everyone, but the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts has officially announced that they are closing. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @rudeboybrody] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>RudeBoyBrody: Have you heard of the COVID conscious lesbian bar on the verge of civil-war after going mask optional?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @holdensmith962]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>HoldenSmith962: Oh my god you’d have thought they were burning people at the stake at that establishment.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last Ditch, better known as the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts, was at the center of a super viral Boston Globe article in September. The bar had opened last year as a safe space for immunocompromised and COVID conscious queer people and required all patrons to wear a KN95 mask or better. But Last Ditch struggled to stay afloat. Between the slowing foot traffic and visitors not spending enough money at the bar, Last Ditch just couldn’t turn a profit. So, in an effort to attract more patrons, the bar announced that it would lift its masking policy on Saturdays. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And it’s worth noting that this part of western Massachusetts, the Pioneer Valley, is very progressive and very queer, thanks to the concentration of liberal arts and women’s colleges. The Boston Globe article detailed the community firestorm that followed that announcement. Commenters on Instagram accused the bar of being complicit in a mass disabling event and claimed “people like you kill disabled people in the name of your own leisure and convenience.” In response, the bar hosted a mediation session with community members, which seemed to provoke detractors even more. This was ultimately a story about how community infighting and interpersonal drama derailed what was supposed to be an inclusive third space for queer people who practice COVID safety, at a time when lesbian bars in the U.S. are already dying out. The Globe article was packed with juicy details that were primed to go viral, like how one of the bar’s original owners stepped down to go to clown school. The story immediately sparked a ton of discourse within queer and disabled communities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @charlotteswebtattoos] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>CharlottesWebTatoos: I need to sit down with a bunch of gay people and we need to break down this article sentence by sentence. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @allegedly_erin]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Allegedly_Erin: And if I, a queer disabled woman, roll up to the COVID conscious lesbian bar in Western Massachusetts sipping my iced coffee \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of juno_aventurine from Instagram]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Juno_Aventurine: I am not interested in making fun of or looking down on people who are COVID conscious, particularly not at immunocompromised people who want more spaces that are more accessible for them. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of overcookingmytoast from Instagram] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>OvercookingMyToast: I lived in Western Massachusetts for many years. I am telling you right now that this situation would only fucking happen in Western Massachusets. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But then, it broke containment. More mainstream outlets picked it up, and commenters on the left and on the right ran with it. And as more people outside the community got ahold of it, with social media algorithms fueling the spread, the context got lost. The discourse became less about the story itself and more about ridiculing disabled and COVID-conscious people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> It becomes a way to stoke and instigate people’s rage or big emotions or reactions at the expense of, like, what was this very niche community conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Dr. Jess Rauschberg. She’s a lecturer at the University of Leeds and she studies the politics of the creator economy. And as Jess pointed out, the COVID conscious lesbian bar debacle happened amid a bigger cultural pylon of disabled people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of redblaquegolden from Instagram] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>redblaquegolden: It’s been like over a week now, and we’re still having this conversation about this bar. Fundamentally, the thing that bothers me the most about this is that right now, the government is currently working on legislation that will make it a thousand times harder for people with disabilities to receive care in their homes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This story about the drama in a small Western Massachusetts community snowballed out of control, pulling in other queer disabled people who had nothing to do with Last Ditch. Commenters accused creators of faking their disabilities for attention. Social media erupted in debate over young people using mobility aids, like canes. People who still mask in public spaces, whether it’s because they’re immunocompromised or just don’t wanna get sick, where he cried as too woke. Disabled people have long been a favorite target online, and social media has only accelerated that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> These platforms reward rage. Reward being upset, they reward big feelings or strong opinions, and they reward humiliation. I think of like an old school platform, that could be a gallow or like the place where you would hang somebody as a public spectacle. Okay, we still have that now with these digital platforms. Obviously, like, it doesn’t physically work the same way, but when you are the main character of the internet that everyone is turning on or you’re the digital punching bag, algorithmic ableism really, I think, intensifies that even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Algorithmic Ableism. Jess coined the concept in a paper published last year to describe how social media recommendation algorithms discriminate against disabled people and uphold long-standing biases of who deserves to exist in public. She’s also writing a book about how algorithmic ableism shapes the creator economy. Today, we’re diving deep into what algorithmic ableism looks like in practice, how social-media platforms profit from it, and how the old spectacle of the ‘freak show’ has been reborn online. Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung:, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like always, let’s open a new tab. What is algorithmic ableism? First, let’s talk about what ableism is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So ableism can be defined in many ways. And I think of it as a form of political oppression that is really concentrated on the devaluation of bodily and cognitivie difference. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This includes accessibility barriers, like train stations without lifts, which are inaccessible to wheelchair users, or public events without captions or sign language interpreters, so they exclude people who are deaf or hard of hearing. But underneath all of it are beliefs and biases — prejudice against bodily and cognitive differences — that bleed into every single aspect of society, both on and offline. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For example, when creators post about asking for accommodations at airports, or post fit checks with their mobility aides, they’re accused of attention seeking. Comments like, just running around undiagnosed, or are you acoustic? Have become common responses to neurodivergent users. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Those ideas are so intrinsic to everything that we do online, to the ways that we program algorithmic recommendation infrastructures, to ways we believe we should treat each other in a comment section. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess started thinking about algorithmic ableism almost 10 years ago, just before she started her PhD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> As a grad student, it felt really isolating and lonely sometimes when I wanted to share my experiences or just have someone to relate to about being disabled in graduate school. And I thought one day, I want to see who’s online and who can I connect with because maybe there has to be someone else out there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess started posting under the handle, Disabled PhD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I saw how, on the one hand, social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok and At the time, Twitter could be these really cool hubs for disabled and chronically ill and neurodivergent people to work, to play, to live, and find community when the offline world can be really inaccessible. But at the same time, the way algorithmic recommendation works, the way that we treat each other in platform environments is increasingly at the expense of disabled people existing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She channeled her own experience as a disabled creator online into her academic research, and now, her upcoming book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> We’re in an environment where ableism and to be openly ableist is acceptable and it’s also encouraged by the platforms and that in turn is shaping how we treat each other. So like I often compare this to this idea of like, why do we treat each other like NPCs or non-playable characters from video games? It’s just so easy to dismiss them. It’s really easy to want to make assumptions about who they are because of like how I’ve received the ways they present themselves, that’s also tied to ableism too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is apparent in the way the COVID-conscious lesbian bar debate blew up. The discourse around disabilities had already been brewing online, separate from the bar fallout. A few weeks before the Boston Globe article propelled Last Ditch into the national spotlight, across the pond, the Telegraph published an op-ed titled “How Having a Disability Became Cool.” It claims that sickfluencers were turning chronic illness into a lifestyle trend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And so sick influencers is kind of this derogatory term. It’s a way to kind of push back or devalue and dismiss influencers and content creators who make chronic illness, like advocacy or awareness content. It’s not new. I think essentially what this article did was basically accused being a chronic illness influencer as just this desire to participate in a trend that these people are faking it. That they’re scamming their audience, and that we are getting duped by these women who just really wanna be oppressed while they line their pockets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The article highlighted a condition called POTS, Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, a nervous system disorder that affects blood flow. It causes rapid heart rate, dizziness when standing, extreme fatigue, brain fog, headaches, and fainting. There are medications that help, but treatments also include compression therapy, doing certain exercises to keep blood circulating, and increasing salt and fluid intake. However, the severity of pot symptoms can really vary, and some people manage flare-ups by using mobility aids like walkers and canes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The op-ed claimed that many so-called sickfluencers had diagnosed themselves with POTS and questioned whether they were also faking comorbidities like Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, chronic fatigue, and fibromyalgia. It insinuated that young women were playing up or even faking their disabilities for attention and clout. Soon enough, it was all over the internet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @desmondfambrini] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Desmondfambrini: Why does everybody have a cane and a walker now? It’s driving me crazy. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @fleccastalks] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Fleccastalks: These are all people who are disabled for fun. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @horriblemeanwoman] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>HeatherShaw: And how come every time I see somebody hop on TikTok and say that they can’t work because they have POTS and extreme migraines and fatigue and they can’t understand time so they just have to stay in their room in their pajamas and maybe their short hair and septum rings uh they can’t work. It’s always just a white lady.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That last clip was from comedian Heather Shaw, who is also white. She since deleted the video. Here’s Jess again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> This is very fascinating how this all kind of happened within like a three to four week period. You have like this, why are all white women just like trying to cosplay as marginalized and saying they’re disabled or like they’re queer and why is it always a trope? So you have that discourse happening on TikTok. You have the Last Ditch bar discourse happening all over the internet. And then you have the Telegraph published this very controversial op-ed decrying sickfluencers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In all of its speculation over the uptick in POTS cases among young women, the Telegraph op-ed neglected to mention that POTS has been directly linked to viral infections, like the flu, Epstein-Barr, and the big one: COVID. An estimated 40% of people with report having COVID months before their POTS symptoms started. A University of Toledo study analyzed medical records of more than 65 million Americans and found a dramatic surge in POTS cases between March 2020 and June 2025, a more than five times increase since the pandemic started. Other recent medical research has linked POT symptoms to autoimmune signals after infection. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> We kind of have glossed over the devastation of COVID and like how people are experiencing long COVID where POTS is a comorbidity for long COVID. So a lot of people have developed these chronic conditions from a mass disabling event. And I think we really forget that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> POTS also overlaps with multiple chronic illnesses and disabling conditions. Connective tissue disorders, for example, can impact circulation. As a nervous system condition, POTS is also linked to chronic pain and gastrointestinal issues. It also often presents with autoimmune conditions like lupus, celiac disease, and mast cell activation syndrome. So there’s a lot of overlap between people who have POT and other chronic illnesses, people who have mobility aids, and people who still wear masks to protect their immune systems. The Boston Globe story about Last Ditch just added fuel to the fire. It was like a perfect storm. And it created this online environment where any young person who used a mobility aid or wore a mask in public or even talked about having a disability was both accused of faking it and also ridiculed for having it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> It’s not just like a really horrific example of algorithmic ableism, but the ways algorithmic ableism is tied to a larger rage bait economy and how the internet or like platform cultures are now not just a forum where we can all share our ideas and show up and maybe we disagree and maybe there are arguments, but at the end of the day, we’re all participating fully. This is like being in a gladiators arena where you get to watch somebody else’s humiliation public punishment and you seek pleasure from that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that spectacle becomes more enticing when stories like Last Ditch go through something called context collapse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Knowing a little bit personally about the cultural context this comes from, this is like a really niche community disagreement that became central to a national news story, right? It’s covered in the Boston Globe, but then it travels online. And so now you’re bringing in all these other people who have no experience with like Western Massachusetts lesbian culture or like COVID conscious culture. And now it’s like, everyone gets a chance to dunk on these people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And social platforms themselves profit off this rage because it drives engagement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And then when these perfect storm stories happen, platform economies reward the rage because TikTok, Instagram, X, they’re not really making money off of existing as a platform. They kind of exist as the space that hosts user-generated content. And the more traffic, the more attention they can bring to the platform by hosting a viral discourse or being the spot where the top creators and influencers are working. That’s not just lucrative to the platform, it’s also lucrative to the advertisers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a vicious cycle. The people doing the mocking and the people being mocked are feeding the same content machine. Platforms profit off of all of it. All of this intersects with this other online phenomenon that Jess has researched extensively, lolcows. LOL as in L-O-L like laughing out loud and cow as in something to be milked. A lolcow is someone who goes viral for their eccentric behavior and is seen as a laughingstock. Audiences mock them to provoke more reactions. The idea is that their discomfort is milked for entertainment. Often, the people the internet labels as lolcows are disabled, many with an intellectual or developmental disability. It’s about who’s easiest to target. They go viral for looking different and behaving in a way that the audience sees as cringe, depraved, or otherwise socially unacceptable. People dunk on them, and then they keep going viral because their reactions are seen as more entertainment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from World of Tshirts on YouTube] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: Get that camera out of my face! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Although algorithmic ableism is a relatively new phenomenon, Jess says the concept of lolcows isn’t. Audiences have turned people into spectacle for entertainment throughout human history. Writings about the so-called village fool date back thousands of years. That history and the modern lolcow phenomenon is a whole new tab, which we’ll open right after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqd.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, the long history of disability as entertainment and how the internet ran with it. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’re back! Let’s open a new tab, the History of Lolcow-ification. Although algorithmic ableism and the word lolcow itself are consequences of the digital age, none of this is that new. It’s inherited from centuries of hiding disabled people away. When disabled people were allowed to exist in public, they were often exploited, frequently put on display for a laughing crowd. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Like Medieval Europe and Renaissance Europe had fools, so nobles would keep these people who were oftentimes we would probably understand them now to be autistic or developmentally disabled. And they were kind of kept as pets during a feast or some kind of big event. You would bring out the fool and you would just like laugh at them and you would interact with them. And it was entertaining. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Fast forward to Europe’s so-called Age of Enlightenment, from the late 1600s to the early 1800s, when cities began locking people away for lunacy. In other words, incarcerating people who were dealing with mental illness or disability. In addition to subjecting patients to horrific living conditions and barbaric treatments, some of these asylums also put them on display. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> London’s very infamous Bethlehem Asylum had viewing days. So on Sundays after church, you could go to Bethlehems, give a few pence and go watch the patients on display in like these caged rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For centuries, people with physical disabilities like dwarfism had been put on display at provincial fairs, often with little say in it. By the mid-1800s, P.T. Barnum had turned that display into a commercial spectacle with his freak shows. He came up with wild backstories for performers, like claiming that a black man with microcephaly was the missing link in human evolution. His real name was William Henry Johnson, but audiences only knew him as Zip the Pinhead. Prince Randian, a Guyanese American man born without arms or legs, drew massive crowds as the Human Caterpillar. As part of his performance, he would roll and light a cigarette using only his mouth. Chang and Eng Bunker, conjoined twins from Thailand who were brought to the U.S. As teenagers, became freak show celebrities as the Siamese Twins. At the same time, in everyday life, disabled people were often kept out of sight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So you have people whose labor and public appearance is hidden in other aspects of life because this is during the time of ugly laws but you’re also a form of entertainment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ugly laws were first implemented in San Francisco, just after the Civil War. Also known as unsightly beggar ordinances, they targeted people with visible disabilities or disfigurements, banning them from public spaces. Violators could be jailed or institutionalized. This wasn’t just about cracking down on panhandling. It was about enforcing social norms by pretending that disabled people just didn’t exist. The last ugly laws were repealed in 1974, but they were part of a much larger pattern of excluding disabled people from daily life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> With these social norms in place, and in some cases, legally enforced, freak shows were one of the few ways that disabled people could make a living. Some even achieved financial stability and were able to retire comfortably, at the cost of being mocked and ogled at every day for years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Social media platforms have had their own version of ugly laws. In 2019, the German digital rights news outlet NetzPolitik published a bombshell investigation revealing that TikTok had told its moderators to suppress content from people with disabilities, facial disfigurement, or facial problems. TikTok said that such users were, quote, susceptible to bullying or harassment based on their physical or mental condition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok called the guidelines a blunt and temporary policy and said that they have since changed their anti-bullying methods. But later reporting from other outlets revealed that TikTok also didn’t want to scare away new users by allowing them to see disabled people on their For You page. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did it actually stop the harassment? Well, no. It’s a legacy of ableism adapted to a new medium. Platforms have a pattern of hiding disabled creators. Until the creators are being ridiculed. Then the platforms amplify their content. It echoes the same dynamic that existed in the era of freak shows. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> So you would go to fairs or carnivals and you could go into the House of the Freaks. And your difference, whether it’s cognitive or bodily or a combination of both, is something to be on display. And that was a form of amusement for the viewer. So obviously we don’t have freak shows quite like that anymore, but I would argue that our entertainment media industries are really bent on this idea of freakery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That brings us to the late 2000s, when the internet gave this old idea a new name. The Lolcow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Lolcow culture was something that was kind of sequestered to the bowels of the web, the 4chans, the Something Awfuls, the Kiwi Farms. And these were people who on messaging boards would antagonize these people who it was funny to see them react. We could say that the instigation of these early locales like Chris Chan or Chris Weston was an early form of reach bait. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Chris Chan is often called the original lolcow. She’s an autistic trans woman who first went viral in 2007 with her comic series about Sonichu, an anime-inspired character that blended Pikachu with Sonic the Hedgehog. The comic was amateur, and 4chan users mocked her relentlessly for it, but when she responded to the trolls, every reaction gave them more to work with. She’s been involved in a string of controversy since then, but has also been a target of ridicule and harassment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> But now, lolcow culture is not just on these messaging boards that have a bad rap. Some lolcows have been able to work and profit and make some kind of living off of their exploitation and humiliation. And not exclusively, but overwhelmingly, a lot of these little cows are developmentally disabled or autistic or neurodivergent and have high support needs or like appear to be from what we see online. But a lot of these lolcows aren’t just on social media platforms, they live stream. And so you can watch like every day, hours of footage of the lolcow. And this has kind of evolved into like a new form of lolcow that we might call a career cow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A career cow is someone who makes money off of being a lolcow. Unlike Chris Chan, they’re not some random person that the internet picks up and mocks. This is specifically someone who make content and makes a living out of it. One of the most well-known career cows is Joshua Block, a content creator also known as World of TShirts. He originally went viral for giving drunk tours of New York City on camera and became something of a niche local celebrity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @alexholem] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 1: Just chilling here, getting drunk with the captain. What words you got to say to them? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: We’re getting drunk tonight. Yes, sir! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Josh is autistic, and viewers quickly realized that he had a serious substance abuse problem. Other streamers would take him out, get him wasted, and prompt him to do or say things for the camera. He became known for saying this meme phrase at McDonald’s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @crashingbad] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 2: So then you could be like, put the fries in the bag. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: Put the fries in the bag! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But the phrase became a taunt. When bystanders saw him live streaming in real life, they’d run up to him and yell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 3: Put the fries in the bag!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: How did you find me again?! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which would really upset him, and his meltdowns became fodder for streamers to entertain viewers. Videos titled Josh Block Crash Out rarely went viral on TikTok. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And so he would engage, when he would be instigated by his live stream comments, what’s called the text-to-speech feature. So I pay $10 and I say something or rage bait Josh Block and he would bite himself or punch himself or start screaming. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok user @lolcownews5] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Text to speech: Put the fries in the bag, you unemployed- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: I’m not! Ah, ah. No, no, no! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 4: Oh god, you just threw it on the screen, Josh! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>[Tip beep]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And people would watch us for hours and days and days on end and they would follow his antics and his movements closely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> For years, Josh would livestream his binge drinking. His chat sent him cash tips to buy himself more drinks or would provoke him into an on-camera meltdown. Other streamers made content out of partying with him while viewers showed up in person to give him more alcohol. His drinking often spiraled out of control, which became even more content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Following an arrest in California, Josh went to attend a court ordered rehab program earlier this year. He announced that he has to abstain from drinking for one year to avoid further charges. But he did resume streaming and said that he plans to resume drinking when he’s legally cleared. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Clip of Josh Block from TikTok] \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Josh Block: When all that is over, I’ll just do it in moderation. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 5: In moderation, that’s his plan. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 6: Of course. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Streamer 5: To drink in moderation. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> When Josh said he plans to drink again, viewers celebrated. With comments like, we’re so back, and knew the sobriety thing was too good to be true. Jess says this is part of a broader pattern. Earlier this year, she published a paper on platform authoritarianism, the idea that digital spaces are fueled by suppressive, surveillance-based practices. Platform authoritarianism is the use of algorithms and censorship to maintain power. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I kind of looked at this from the lens of disability in class. So if ableism in the creator economy, algorithmic ableism, devalues or dismisses the contributions of disabled creators, influencers, street builders, platform workers, is there another side of this? And so this idea of platform authoritarianism is trying to wrestle with what I call the fictions of algorithmic ablism in a creator economy that there’s no nuanced conversation about. Disability and internet culture, but rather there’s a single narrative that kind of blurs the boundaries of any potential for nuance. And disability can be useful in authoritarian culture when it’s something that can be extracted from and exploited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She says it’s a familiar role but in a new world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> This is drawing on centuries of a practice that we’ve had in Western culture for a really long time, but platforms make it so much more palpable because it’s not just the village idiot that’s sequestered to this one space and we all laugh at them. Like, you’re the internet’s village idiot. And that’s very, very scary. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to recap, disabled creators are often shadow banned and suppressed, as shown by TikTok’s own moderation roles. When they do break through, it’s often to be ridiculed and mocked, like the sickfluencer debate. And some disabled creators have become career cows, turned into a modern digital freak show where they’re repeatedly exploited for entertainment. All of this drives engagement, which social media platforms profit off of. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Is there any way to stop fueling it? That is a new tap, how to fight algorithmic ableism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A common response to the stigma around disability is to flip the script, relabeling it as a strength. But that approach comes with its own issues. For example, Paris Hilton has been very public about her ADHD diagnosis and has been trying to rebrand neurodivergence. In 2024, she released this song called ADHD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Paris Hilton’s song “ADHD” from YouTube] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>Paris Hilton: Look at me, I’m the best I can be. I was so down, thought I’d never be free. My super power was right inside, see… It was ADHD.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> She’s been raising money to support neurodivergent children with a merch line emblazoned with this motto, ADHD is my superpower. And last month, she hosted the Unstoppable Creator Summit, a day-long gathering of celebrities and creators who have ADHD and autism. It was packed with programming about portraying neurodivergence as a strength to be proud of. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> There were, like, a NeuroSpicy drinks bar, or this wall, content wall, where it’s like, here’s what my mind feels like. And it’s the whimsy trend, where all the jewels are the little doodads kind of clustered together. It’s cute and it’s fun, but it also is very dismissive of some of the real experiences of ADHD. And I think for me, my critique is disability isn’t a brand. And also, I think it’s really dangerous to brand it as a superpower because this really reads as a media event. It’s not really an awareness event. I think there’s a difference between empowerment and how disability can also be disabling. And it can impact your ability to work, to participate in life. And I don’t think that’s solved by having like a creator event. I’ve got a chance to learn from a lot of other disabled creators who are not upset because they weren’t invited, but because they want something better. There’s a better way to talk about disability. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess says that rebranding disability as a superpower is not helpful, but neither is framing disability as something to be fixed or overcome. Both of these approaches are dismissive of real experiences of disability. It’s important to recognize how societal barriers impact those experiences. Another way to talk about disability, according to Jess, is to really deconstruct who is seen as disabled. Another critique of Paris Hilton’s unstoppable summit was that the guest list was overwhelmingly white women. Disabilities are just as prevalent in non-white populations, but racial bias affects who gets support. Studies show that healthcare professionals prefer to treat disabled white people over disabled people of color. Disabled people of color are less likely to receive workplace accommodations than their white counterparts. Black, Latino, and non-English speaking children are less likely to be diagnosed with autism and less likely receive support in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> And I think that’s also reflected in diagnostic criteria. So like for ADHD or autism, a lot of the criteria for how people or how practitioners diagnose patients is based off of research that was largely conducted with white men, sometimes white women. So for black, brown, and indigenous neurodivergent or disabled people, it’s so much harder to be believed because so many people don’t understand disability or it’s been hidden for us for so long. We don’t think of it as part of larger political progression or larger liberation. But this has always been part of social justice movements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jess points out that disability intersects with many other marginalized identities. The sickfluencer debate, for example, incited a fresh wave of harassment toward young people who are both queer and disabled. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> During a time when platforms are removing protections that prevent homophobic and transphobic hate speech, we also see like repeals of laws that maybe protect LGBTQ Americans. This kind of converges together or it’s like the ultimate dunking session where it’s, like, wow, this person has so many identities and they just want to be so oppressed. Like, you’re so different, I don’t understand you, and so you deserve to be humiliated. And now, you know, disabled creators are getting doxxed simply for wanting to exist a little bit differently. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Jess says it’s possible to opt out of the public pile-ons and digital freak shows. Just don’t take the bait. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> I think sometimes it’s a matter of logging off. Something that’s helped me at least is like, hmm, I’m having this kind of reaction to this content. Maybe I need to log off or I need to talk about it with somebody. So figuring out where to have these conversations is really important. Platforms want us to keep using TikTok or Instagram or X if you’re still on there or Blue Sky. And they encourage us to Keep talking. But sometimes talking in those spaces is not helpful because… The rage bait is only going to be rewarded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some of the details of the COVID conscious lesbian bar story were primed to be clipped and spread. The clown school part? Bound to go viral. But instead of remaining a one-off story about one specific bar in a small town, it snowballed into open season on any disabled person existing online. Jess said it didn’t have to be like this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Jess Rauchberg:\u003c/strong> Again, I’ve been ablelist, I’ve upheld some of these beliefs. I’ve been wrong. And when I have stepped away from the internet, believe it or not, it’s been helpful. Logging off and spending some time to think it through, not having a quick response has been helpful to not participate in algorithmic ableism, even when it feels really tempting to like, oh, I just want to dunk on this person. But at the end of the day, who wins? The platform companies win. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Refusing to engage with ableist content won’t address the whole system, but it does avoid giving platforms the engagement they crave. So you heard Jess, you can always log off. With that, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Close All Tabs is a production of KQED, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Francesca Fenzi, and edited by Chris Agusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon, additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PPT keycaps. This episode includes clips originally posted by these content creators: brettcooper, rudeboybrody, holdensmith962, charlotteswebtattoos, sackettc, allegedly_erin, juno_aventurine, overcookingmytoast, redblaquegolden, Heather Shaw, fleccastalks, and World of TShirts. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "cinema-is-so-back-and-gen-z-is-behind-it",
"title": "Cinema Is So Back. And Gen Z Is Behind It.",
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"content": "\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In 2020, movie theaters were on their last legs. Lockdowns and years of declining interest had forced historic cinemas to shutter, including an LA icon, the Cinerama Dome. But recently a new generation of cinema-lovers has been using social media to revitalize the culture of in person movie-watching. Internet culture reporter Candice Lim explores the rise of the Gen Z cinephile movement, and heads to Hollywood to meet the young filmmaker and activist who is fighting to bring the Cinerama Dome back from the dead.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests: \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"candicelim.substack.com\">Candice Lim\u003c/a>, internet culture reporter\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/SaveYourCinema\">Ben Steinberg\u003c/a>, filmmaker, actor, and founder of Save Your Cinema\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.11amsaturday.com/\">Ezgi Eren\u003c/a>, founder of \u003cem>11am Saturda\u003c/em>y\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://hearinla.substack.com/p/ben-the-man-who-saved-the-cinerama\">Ben, the Man who Saved the Cinerama Dome\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Hear in LA Substack\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/hollywood-cinerama-dome-benjamin-steinberg-chris-forman-1236556697/\">An Activist Spent Years Pushing for Hollywood’s Cinerama Dome to Reopen. Why Did He Just Stop?\u003c/a> — Gary Baum, \u003cem>The Hollywood Reporter\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.indiewire.com/news/breaking-news/cinerama-dome-advocates-public-pressure-owners-reopen-1235193534/\">Cinerama Dome Advocates Take Rare Chance to Put Public Pressure on Owners to Reopen\u003c/a> — Brian Welk, \u003cem>IndieWire\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.indiewire.com/features/podcast/how-ben-steinberg-saved-cinerama-dome-1235209487/\">How 26-Year-Old Ben Steinberg Saved the Cinerama Dome\u003c/a> — Ryan Lattanzio & Anne Thompson, \u003cem>IndieWire\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2025/film/news/save-cinerama-dome-campaign-reopening-uncertain-1236363487/\">Supporters Rally to Save the Cinerama Dome as Future of Hollywood Theater Complex Remains Uncertain\u003c/a> — Pat Saperstein & Jazz Tangcay, \u003cem>Variety\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/1v3lcq2/in_praise_of_ben_steinberg_the_hero_who_stood_up/\">In praise of Ben Steinberg, the hero who stood up and demanded the Cinerama Dome not be just one more derelict, abandoned Hollywood landmark\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Reddit\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hi Tabby Cats! Do you have an internet trend, tech subculture or online oddity you’ve been wondering about? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate. Go to kqed dot org slash Close All Tabs to submit your question. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For a while, movie theaters had been on a downward spiral. Even the biggest names in Hollywood lamented their demise. Back in 2014, Quentin Tarantino warned of the death of cinema — thanks to the shift from analog filmmaking to digital formats. A few years later, NATO, not that one, but actually the National Alliance of Theater Owners, recorded the lowest theater attendance in over two decades, as tickets got more expensive than ever. In 2019, New York Times film critic A.O. Scott questioned whether streaming would kill cinema, which is actually what Cillian Murphy’s character, a video store owner, predicted in the 2007 romcom, \u003cem>Watching the Detectives\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>[Begin clip of \u003c/em>Watching the Detectives\u003cem>]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So Neil, what are you gonna do when this place goes tits up? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Well, I don’t think that’s gonna happen for a few years, you know, not until people can get any movie they want beamed directly into their TV set and I’m dead meat. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>[End clip of \u003c/em>Watching the Detectives\u003cem>]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And then, a year after that New York Times story came out, the pandemic hit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Inside Edition story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Box office sales at movie theaters over the weekend plummeted to a 20-year low. Ticket sales were even worse than in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of WPRI story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Leadership at Cinemas 8 taking to social media saying the pandemic has made it economically impossible to reopen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The pandemic shut down cinemas around the world with no real safety net and some theaters never opened up again. Hollywood had poured millions and millions of dollars into blockbusters that couldn’t make it to the big screen. Instead, at the height of lockdown, they skipped theaters and went straight to streaming for viewers to watch from the safety of their homes. I’m talking cinematic masterpieces like \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em>… being watched on an iPad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But today, movie theater chains like AMC, Regal, and Alamo Drafthouse have bounced back. The movie-going experience is now a gamified, thriving subculture that reveres in-person community. The AMC A-list subscription used to be for nerds, and now it’s the ultimate cinephile flex. A viral Letterboxd review is a status symbol. Film podcasts treat going to the movies like it’s a sport. So, how did we get here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Today we’re diving into the internet’s mission to save cinema and how an iconic Hollywood landmark almost fell to ruin — until a very online Gen Z filmmaker rallied to the public to save it. Get ready. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For today’s deep dive, I’m handing the keyboard over to my friend, Candice Lim. If she sounds familiar, it’s because you’ve definitely heard her on Close All Tabs before. She’s also an internet culture reporter, a film and TV critic, and one of my favorite people to follow on Letterboxd. Candice only converted to the Church of Cinema after the release of \u003cem>Challengers\u003c/em>, the horny tennis love triangle extravaganza starring Zendaya, which Candice saw in theaters five times. And she’s not the only one trying to save the art of movie going. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Okay. Take it away, Candice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Thanks Morgan. In the words of Nicole Kidman… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Nicole Kidman for AMC from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> We come to this place for magic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So let’s open a new tab: the Savior of the Cinerama Dome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I wanna take us to Sunset Boulevard on a recent Saturday morning in Los Angeles. I’m standing in front of this big, white dome made out of 316 interlocking concrete panels. It’s the Cinerama Dome. It’s hard to miss next to a Veggie Grill and a gym, but for something so big in the dead center of Hollywood, this theater complex feels… dead. The lights that once lit the night sky have been off for years. And the building itself is in a state of disrepair. But, it wasn’t always that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I liked coming here to see \u003cem>2001: A Space Odyssey\u003c/em> in 2014. That was my first time seeing a movie with an intermission, and with over 800 or 1,000 people in the audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> This is Ben Steinberg. He’s a cinephile. First off, how many movies have you seen this year? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Oh, uh, probably over 50 maybe? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> I can tell you it’s 113. It was on Letterboxd. I checked it out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Oh, wow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He’s a former child actor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> When I was like 13 or 14, I got to do the TV show, \u003cem>Brooklyn Nine-Nine\u003c/em>, for a few seasons. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Brooklyn Nine-Nine from IMDb]:\u003c/strong> But it’s my bar mitzvah. We were going to grind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And, he’s an activist. In fact, when it comes to the movie theater revival movement, he’s kind of the activist. For the last five years, Ben has been running a Twitter account called Save Your Cinema. He got started in 2021, when Angeleno’s received a heartbreaking announcement about the very iconic building we are standing right in front of. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Fox 11 Los Angeles story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> And we begin with breaking news, and it is very sad news for movie lovers. Pacific Theaters announcing its ArcLight and Pacific Theaters will not reopen after shutting down last year because of the pandemic. This includes the iconic Cinerama Dome in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> The Dome had been closed in 2020 due to COVID, just like nearly every other theater. Ownership kept promising it would reopen, but it never did, and cinephiles like Ben began to get nervous. To Ben, that announcement in March of 2021 was the nail in the coffin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> And then after that, they made no further like, press releases or responded to emails. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> To understand the importance of this, I need to tell you a bit about the Cinerama Dome and what it means to the city of LA and film history. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Dome was opened back in 1963, and it’s the first and only concrete, geodesic dome in the world. For decades, it was known as the place to watch the latest blockbuster, and the first film they ever screened was \u003cem>It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World\u003c/em>, a Stanley Kramer-directed comedy starring Buster Keaton. Then, it became this marquee place to hold premieres, similar to Grauman’s Chinese Theatre — and The Dome made it fun. They turned into a green ogre for \u003cem>Shrek 2\u003c/em>. They became the moon for the 2018 Neil Armstrong biopic, \u003cem>First Man\u003c/em>. A lot of working filmmakers can remember the most formative movie they’ve watched at The Dome with hopes that one day their film would premiere there too. And beyond the iconic look and blockbuster screenings, this particular theater is important to the history of film as a medium. It’s all about the way movies are shot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> There’s like two different versions of Cinerama. There’s the original three-strip Cinerama, which uses literally three lenses, like three cameras together. And then later on, they did the 70mm Cinerama, which is \u003cem>2001: A Space Odyssey\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Without getting too technical, the image 70-millimeter film creates is huge — several times bigger than traditional 35-millimeter. It had to be projected onto a screen that’s large enough to accommodate it. That’s where The Dome comes in. I would describe watching a movie at The Dome as if you were inside The Sphere in Las Vegas. The magnitude of this format, what some call “the great-grandmother of IMAX,” feels magical, especially in the age of vertical video scrolling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Imagine watching something like Christopher Nolan’s \u003cem>Interstellar\u003c/em> at The Dome. It makes you feel like you’re actually on the moon — and you are experiencing this with strangers, all of whom came to this place at this time to share this moment with you. Also, the popcorn is really good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> They have like this really good chef-driven like popcorn. They had like the- the last one they had was Mexican street popcorn. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Okay, back to the announcement about The Dome’s permanent closure. So, you have this piece of cinema history, an architectural feat, an iconic industry landmark, closing for good. A lot of people were gutted, including and especially Ben. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> From what I was told through a few different sources was that they just didn’t believe in the theatrical exhibition box office, like they didn’t think they could make enough money, and like they’re obviously very business-oriented. So, I was just under the assumption that they didn’t believe in like the theatrical exhibition box office for the future of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And every good movie needs a hero, right? Well, for this story, and for a very online group of movie lovers, that hero was Ben. Immediately after the Cinerama Dome’s owners announced it wouldn’t reopen, Ben jumped into action. And even though he might sound mild-mannered, let me tell you: Ben is fearless. And you have to remember the context. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It was 2021. We were coming out of lockdown. Theater attendance was returning at a crawl. And if there was one barrier Ben felt he needed to break through — it was the doors of The Dome. So, he got his keyboard warriors together and created a petition called Save the Cinerama Dome. And this petition was trying to get the attention of the owners of The Dome, the Decurion Corporation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> It was addressed to the CEO of the Decurion Corporation, so I was hoping to at least get a response from him. Then it quickly got 30,000 signatures, but we never got any response. They didn’t even acknowledge it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ben was frustrated, because as far as he could tell, there wasn’t a good reason for The Dome’s permanent closure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Company that owns it, they never went bankrupt, the parent company, they just decided to shut down the theater. So, just the whole like situation was very mysterious, like they have no website and no phone line, and then I started to look at their other properties that they own, and they own some other historic cinemas that have been abandoned for around 25 years… So I kind of got paranoid that they were planning that for The Dome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> It’s true. Let’s get into some backstory. Okay, so the Decurion Corporation is owned by the Formans, a billionaire family that owned two major movie chains in California: the Pacific Theater, which started all the way back in 1946, and ArcLight Cinemas, which operated The Dome as well as other beloved LA theaters. But both chains were permanently closed down in 2021, and The Dome, with its peeling walls and overgrown vines, definitely looks like it’s been closed for five years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I was documenting just like the deterioration of it, which was crazy, just seeing like stuff falling off just because it’s been abandoned for so long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ben got tired of seeing this beloved theater stand idly by — wasting away as what some have called, “a tax write-off.” He got this crazy idea. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ve had the idea for like three years, but I knew that once I did it, it could be like the end of the Save the Cinerama Dome campaign. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He basically wanted to project a Page Six headline-style photo of the Decurion executives onto The Dome. Once he got the idea, he started a GoFundMe, which raised more than $2,000, and those dollars went toward hiring a projectionist, a security guard, and a little rehearsal… A few days before the stunt. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I got a professional projection engineer to do it. It just said, “Reopen The Dome,” and then just the images of the CEO and the vice president of development. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He actually pulled it off on a busy Friday night when the sun went down and the projection went up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I was right between the two big trees and the lampposts, in front of the Los Angeles Film School, but on the sidewalk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Do you notice people stopping and staring at it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we got a lot of attention like, everyone was looking at the projection and like people in their cars were like, throwing their thumbs up and like, applauding me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But according to Ben, the reason his stunt even went viral is because of the cops. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Lasted for like two or three hours and then the police came — the police specifically said the owners like don’t want me to get arrested or citated, they just want me to know they consider it a form of escalation and harassment, but I think it was definitely like the Streisand effect. I think it’s a blessing in disguise that they called the police, because I think if they didn’t it wouldn’t have gone as viral. So, I think it definitely drew attention on them. I just wanted to remind them that like, they owned the Cinerama Dome and the public wanted it to reopen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So even though the cops said they were not going to arrest Ben, after two hours, he felt like it was time to go home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> After I posted about it, it went viral and I knew that was going to kick some things in motion. And then like, the next day I saw that the executives for the company started viewing my LinkedIn profile. So that was definitely a good sign. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So Ben finally got the attention of The Dome’s owners. They were checking out his LinkedIn — then came a public hearing where The Dome’s representative was going to be there. So Ben got a second idea, to flood the zone with his supporters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> She was asked specifically about the Save the Cinerama Dome campaign and like my projection, and she responded saying that the ownership took notice of it and the extreme public interest in wanting The Dome to reopen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But it was very, We Here For You, from \u003cem>Succession\u003c/em>, because it’s one thing to say we’re noticing interest versus acting on that interest. So Ben decided to give them a self-proclaimed deadline, August 20th, and they had to either announce they were reopening The Dome or find someone to lease the theater. He wasn’t sure if they were going to actually meet that deadline, but for some reason, he felt closer and closer to a victory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I think the ArcLight needed someone like him who just wouldn’t back down and wouldn’t take no for an answer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi Eren is the founder of 11am Saturday, a Substack newsletter she calls a movie restoration project. She interviewed Ben for her Substack back in 2024 before the stunt happened. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And, you know, he just projected an image onto a building. Like he didn’t break the law. I mean, I don’t know if he technically broke the law, but he didn’t harm anyone. So, if that’s what it took to get the owners to act, that’s good to know. The fact that he raised that awareness in them is amazing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And after years of back and forth, online petitions, and filmmakers like Edgar Wright, Benny Safdie, and Sean Baker showing support, for the first time in a long time, it looked like moviegoers just might have the chance to see The Dome’s silver screen light up once again. Ben is one of the many people trying to keep movie theaters alive — but his efforts are just the most visible piece… of a movie subculture that has come roaring back after cinemas were pronounced dead only a few years ago. And the driving force behind it? Gen Z. We’ll get into that after the break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab: is the Gen Z Cinephile Movement real? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I’ll put myself on blast, because I’m technically in Gen Z, and I am watching an average of three to five movies per week. But, I wasn’t always this way. I actually used to hate movies. I was more of a TV kid. But in 2024, a movie came out that changed how I valued the movie going experience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Challengers from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Don’t you want to meet Tashi Duncan? You don’t get it, man. You’ve never seen her in person. She’s in another league. You mean her game? No, I mean she’s the hottest woman I’ve ever seen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Challengers\u003c/em>, directed by Luca Guadagnino, stars Zendaya, Mike Faist, and Josh O’Connor as three tennis players who sometimes play tennis, but also make out. What got me was the score by the Nine Inch Nails guys. It was electric, and propulsive, and it felt like being in the club — and after many clubless years during the pandemic, I needed that. From that point forward, I became a Letterboxd-er, an AMC A-List member, and a proud solo moviegoer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I looked around and I didn’t really know many people who still went to the movies, shockingly. It was a couple years ago. And I just felt like the whole experience is dying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi Eren, again, founder of 11am Saturday, the movie Substack. While Ezgi admits she is a millennial, she is in a lot of Gen Z majority spaces, and she believes Gen Z is the key to getting butts back into those fuzzy little seats. She says they’re looking to reconnect with real people… And real experiences. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I think it’s the kind of oversaturation of the internet, the influx of content that people are subjected to every day, and the need to kind of get off the internet and go more into real life spaces again. I see it in like book clubs. I see it in like dinner parties. I think it’s the same reason for people going back to the movie theaters as well. Yeah, it’s great. I love it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And it’s not just the movies themselves that are attracting these Gen Z attendees. It’s about what’s happening outside of the theater, online, that’s pushing people to keep going back for more. It’s a digitally fueled cultural shift. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For example, let’s talk about Letterboxd, which is a movie logging app that’s akin to the Goodreads of cinema. It can frankly be a little performative. You start by rating a movie out of five stars. Then you can write a review. Some people take it seriously. Others become trolls. But it’s so communal that your favorite filmmakers and film heads — this is Martin Scorsese, Charli XCX, even Jack Harlow — are logging the same movies you are watching. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Then, you have things like the Criterion Closet. You may have heard of the Criterion Collection. They have a YouTube video series called Closet Picks, where prominent film lovers like Francis Ford Coppola, Paul Giamatti, and game designer Hideo Kojima pick their favorite highbrow DVDs off library-looking shelves. It’s a smash hit. But the reason why Gen Z congregates around these film-themed internet platforms is because they are actively curating their tastes — using accessible platforms almost as an educational way to upgrade their cinema game. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because at the end of the day, when you log a movie or post a review, it’s your green light at the of the dock, a bid for connection. It’s a way to attract like-minded people with similar taste. Because that’s what COVID ripped away from a lot of Gen Z people: organic connection in public spaces. And Letterboxd… is considered a public space. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Letterboxd and like The Criterion and studios that make movies more catered to Gen Z, like I think those are all kind of partially responsible as well, but it’s almost like they are riding a great wave. I think it was going to happen regardless. But then of course, it does matter that Letterboxd, gameified it. It does matter that theaters are engaging more with their audiences on social media. It has become almost like… a brand — you want to associate yourself with a specific theater more now. I think it’s a combination of all those things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Fandango, the movie ticket website, did a study this year, saying that Gen Z, who are about 14 to 29 years old right now, is the most active movie-going generation, seeing about seven movies per year. I’ve also seen headlines about Gen Z being the loneliest generation right now. Is there a connection? Here’s Ben again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I can’t think of like any other third spaces. Like I know AMC Theaters has like a lot of like meetups and like fan clubs where people will just go every week as a group to AMC. So, I think that’s a big thing, I mean like at least for me personally, if I’m doing something social, I’d rather like go to a movie than something else. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi says that even though the intersection of chronically online Gen Z-ers and cinephiles is probably pretty small, it’s a subgroup with growing influence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I will say like they’re not big enough to kind of maybe like influence a whole performance of a movie. Like I don’t think everyone who saw \u003cem>Obsession\u003c/em> and made it such a success is- does fit in that category. But I do think they have a big influence on marketing campaigns now for sure. I mean, you see it in like press tours, you see it and how, even like, studios with lower budgets, like they’re doing everything to kind of keep up with the content-ification of movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And like creating like an online experience to try to like get these people to see the movies. So I think their influence is growing for sure and then like after \u003cem>Obsession\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Backrooms\u003c/em> they’re only going to be stronger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Have you ever been influenced by maybe like, a Letterboxd or even a film podcast or something you saw on social media that made you like, I don’t know, wanna go see a movie or made you more excited about something coming up? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, so all the time — all the time. Sometimes it’ll be just like one tweet that I’ll take to heart and go see something. Because I still, I think that’s also the power of these websites is that you can’t really manufacture real interest, right? Like, people don’t spend their hard earned money on things that suck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And even though you’re listening to three people who love going to the movies, there are things about theater culture that still suck. You need good movies and good moviegoing experiences to capitalize on this wave of interest and keep people coming back. But there’s the perennial problem of bad theater etiquette. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> You will come across people either on their phone taking pictures of the screen or just talking to their friends or just being like unruly in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Then there’s the fierce competition of booking movie tickets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> The event-izing of the ticket process is very annoying and- and I say that as someone who managed to get tickets to \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em>. It’s still not a good process and it could almost turn into like a deterrent for people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But the big one, the thing that Ben cares most about, is the fact that it’s not always guaranteed that our favorite movie theaters will be there tomorrow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> The Regency Theaters Calabasas — it actually literally just got demolished like six months ago and then also the Regancy Theaters in Agoura Hills, which also got demolished just a few months ago, and then also the AMC Promenade 16 which is now demolished. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> It seems like movie going and the sport of it is being threatened left and right, but… by who? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Let’s open a new tab: who’s the big bad of the movie theater revival movement? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, if Ben is our unlikely hero, the face of Gen Z’s push for cinema revival, then who are they up against? Who’s the Joker to Ben’s Batman? When I asked, Ben was hesitant to call anyone out by name, even though he did project the heads of the Decurion Corporation onto a dome. Ezgi was a little more direct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I’m curious, who do you think are kind of… the enemies or gatekeepers of movie theater preservation. Is it like Netflix? Is it studios? Is it a third thing? Is it billionaires, you know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> As for billionaires, I mean… How much time do we have? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> I wanted to talk about one story that I would say was maybe the most controversial last year, which was Netflix threatening or about to acquire Warner Brothers. Could you maybe explain why that acquisition freaked people out and why were people worried? Why were you worried? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Yes, Netflix tried to purchase Warner Brothers — and Netflix, as we know, is a primarily direct-to-streaming service. Now, typically, their window of showing a movie in a theater is super, super short, so if you don’t see it in theaters in that period, you can only watch it on Netflix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, obviously, that’s terrible news for a studio like Warner Brothers who… put out like some of our favorite movies that we want to experience in theaters. Especially, you know, they had such a good year with \u003cem>One Battle After Another\u003c/em>. They have \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em> coming out. People just don’t want those to be contained to a television screen. So that was the panic. And I believe they’re still panic there because they are now being sold to Paramount, but we’ll see, we’ll how that goes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> At the time of this taping, Paramount has officially completed their acquisition of Warner Brothers, and they have now become one giant conglomerate named Skydance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Speaking of like acquisitions, I mean, this summer Letterboxd apparently is also possibly going up for sale. A lot of people have put their hats into the ring, but Netflix is one of them. Are you worried at all about Letterboxd, for example, possibly being acquired? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I’m very worried about that, yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And it seems inevitable. I just don’t know who can buy it that wouldn’t ruin it, you know? It’s not a perfect app right now, but it still feels very much like, belonging to the people… that the idea of like any major corporation owning it, it’s so easy to change it in a way that kind of ruins the movie culture, which is already kind of fragile. That’s not even like getting to the fact that they will probably sell all that data and use it to train AI and all that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So now we’re identifying a few big bads in the water, who are threatening two separate issues. We have people like the Forman family and their Decurion Corporation who are responsible for closing physical spaces to watch movies. Then, you have media giants, like Netflix, prioritizing streaming over theatrical releases and threatening the actual content that goes into those physical spaces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But, on at least one of those fronts, there’s good news if you’re a movie lover. Because Ben’s projection stunt, the public hearing, the Twitter updates from Save Your Cinema — it all worked. On July 22nd, two months after he lit up the dome with images of the Decurion top brass, Ben woke up to some great news. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of KTLA 5 story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> One of Hollywood’s most iconic theaters could be making a comeback. Deadline broke the news that Sony Entertainment could be planning to resurrect the world-famous Cinerama Dome and ArcLight Hollywood Cinema. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So, finally, after five years, The Dome is saved, and Angeleno’s cannot be happier. Alamo Drafthouse, which is owned by Sony Pictures, will reopen the theater in 2028. And per a Sony Pictures spokesperson, renovations have already started — from the marquee lights coming back on, to The Dome’s first power washing in years. So the question isn’t so much, will the Cinerama Dome be saved? But instead, will people go back? If Gen Z has anything to say about it, the answer is certainly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I kind of feel like if I just didn’t do any of this, The Dome would kind of just still be sitting closed with them telling people it’s gonna reopen next year, like they always did. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And Ben isn’t done being a local hero. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I raised attention about the Laemmle Theaters in North Hollywood, and luckily they got that theater saved from being demolished and turned into apartments. And then, also saving the Laemmle Theaters in Pasadena and getting Landmark to take over the lease, we did a petition for that, and then I’ve just been sharing other people’s campaigns and now like it’s gone international, so I’m trying to save the, I think it’s pronounced Pallas Cinema in Greece. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Do you see yourself as the Spider-Man of movie theaters where it’s like you’re chilling until someone calls you and is like, “Hi, we need to open a theater,” and you’re just like that guy. How do you feel about being almost the person they send the Batman signal for? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I think it’s amazing. It’s definitely very cool that they reach out to me and hopefully I can like be even more involved with other theaters or like one specific theater company. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Even if you’re not a chronically online Gen Z cinephile trying to post an opening weekend review on Letterboxd, going to the movies is still a classic American luxury. It’s the thing you do with your cousins from out of town. It’s what some people do on Christmas when they have nowhere else to go. And sometimes, you just wanna come to this place for magic. So yes, for a few of us, movie theaters are still worth the investment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I went to see Spider-Man and — kind of accidentally on day one, I wasn’t planning on it. And I feel like everyone was dressed up in some variation of like red and blue. And I was like, “Wait, I forgot that people used to do this.” Like, I forgot that this was a thing, because it’s been so long. And you know what? Like, that was also such a respectful audience that had great theater etiquette because people actually cared about seeing the movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And Ezgi’s right. One of my favorite memories of 2026 was seeing \u003cem>The Odyssey\u003c/em> at the Universal CityWalk AMC in IMAX on 70 millimeter at 2 a.m. And yes, it did screw up my sleep schedule for about five weeks, but I should be getting it back on track just in time to see \u003cem>Dune: Part Three\u003c/em> on opening weekend in IMAX on 70-millimeter, also, at 2 a.m. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For Close All Tabs, I’m Candice Lim. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Thanks again to Candice for taking us on that deep dive. If you’re dying to open more tabs about Ben, the Cinerama Dome, and his quest to save LA’s movie theaters, we’ll have some links in the episode description. You can also find more of Candice’s work there. And stick around after the credits for some bonus content. That’s it for this week. I have a movie to catch, so let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported by Candice Lim. It was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say now imagine if there’s a cafe that’s also a theater and you can just spend the whole day there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> You’ve been stomping this ground for a little bit and I- honestly you need to pull a Ben Steinberg. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I know. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Save your stump town mama, like I would sign that petition… I really would because you’re right which is that like I’m going to the Nordstrom E bar And then I’m going to Americana. Let’s combine forces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Let’s figure this out. Like let’s — Community Goods inside an AMC. Imagine the lines. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Oh my God. \u003c/p>\n",
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"Ben, the Man who Saved the Cinerama Dome — Hear in LA Substack",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2025/film/news/save-cinerama-dome-campaign-reopening-uncertain-1236363487/\">Supporters Rally to Save the Cinerama Dome as Future of Hollywood Theater Complex Remains Uncertain\u003c/a> — Pat Saperstein & Jazz Tangcay, \u003cem>Variety\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/1v3lcq2/in_praise_of_ben_steinberg_the_hero_who_stood_up/\">In praise of Ben Steinberg, the hero who stood up and demanded the Cinerama Dome not be just one more derelict, abandoned Hollywood landmark\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Reddit\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/1v3lcq2/in_praise_of_ben_steinberg_the_hero_who_stood_up/\">In praise of Ben Steinberg, the hero who stood up and demanded the Cinerama Dome not be just one more derelict, abandoned Hollywood landmark\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Reddit\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hi Tabby Cats! Do you have an internet trend, tech subculture or online oddity you’ve been wondering about? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate. Go to kqed dot org slash Close All Tabs to submit your question. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hi Tabby Cats! Do you have an internet trend, tech subculture or online oddity you’ve been wondering about? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate. Go to kqed dot org slash Close All Tabs to submit your question. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For a while, movie theaters had been on a downward spiral. Even the biggest names in Hollywood lamented their demise. Back in 2014, Quentin Tarantino warned of the death of cinema — thanks to the shift from analog filmmaking to digital formats. A few years later, NATO, not that one, but actually the National Alliance of Theater Owners, recorded the lowest theater attendance in over two decades, as tickets got more expensive than ever. In 2019, New York Times film critic A.O. Scott questioned whether streaming would kill cinema, which is actually what Cillian Murphy’s character, a video store owner, predicted in the 2007 romcom, \u003cem>Watching the Detectives\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For a while, movie theaters had been on a downward spiral. Even the biggest names in Hollywood lamented their demise. Back in 2014, Quentin Tarantino warned of the death of cinema — thanks to the shift from analog filmmaking to digital formats. A few years later, NATO, not that one, but actually the National Alliance of Theater Owners, recorded the lowest theater attendance in over two decades, as tickets got more expensive than ever. In 2019, New York Times film critic A.O. Scott questioned whether streaming would kill cinema, which is actually what Cillian Murphy’s character, a video store owner, predicted in the 2007 romcom, \u003cem>Watching the Detectives\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Begin clip of \u003c/em>Watching the Detectives\u003cem>]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Begin clip of \u003c/em>Watching the Detectives\u003cem>]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So Neil, what are you gonna do when this place goes tits up? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So Neil, what are you gonna do when this place goes tits up? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, I don’t think that’s gonna happen for a few years, you know, not until people can get any movie they want beamed directly into their TV set and I’m dead meat. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Well, I don’t think that’s gonna happen for a few years, you know, not until people can get any movie they want beamed directly into their TV set and I’m dead meat. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And then, a year after that New York Times story came out, the pandemic hit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And then, a year after that New York Times story came out, the pandemic hit. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Inside Edition story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Box office sales at movie theaters over the weekend plummeted to a 20-year low. Ticket sales were even worse than in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Inside Edition story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Box office sales at movie theaters over the weekend plummeted to a 20-year low. Ticket sales were even worse than in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of WPRI story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Leadership at Cinemas 8 taking to social media saying the pandemic has made it economically impossible to reopen. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of WPRI story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Leadership at Cinemas 8 taking to social media saying the pandemic has made it economically impossible to reopen. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The pandemic shut down cinemas around the world with no real safety net and some theaters never opened up again. Hollywood had poured millions and millions of dollars into blockbusters that couldn’t make it to the big screen. Instead, at the height of lockdown, they skipped theaters and went straight to streaming for viewers to watch from the safety of their homes. I’m talking cinematic masterpieces like \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em>… being watched on an iPad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The pandemic shut down cinemas around the world with no real safety net and some theaters never opened up again. Hollywood had poured millions and millions of dollars into blockbusters that couldn’t make it to the big screen. Instead, at the height of lockdown, they skipped theaters and went straight to streaming for viewers to watch from the safety of their homes. I’m talking cinematic masterpieces like \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em>… being watched on an iPad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But today, movie theater chains like AMC, Regal, and Alamo Drafthouse have bounced back. The movie-going experience is now a gamified, thriving subculture that reveres in-person community. The AMC A-list subscription used to be for nerds, and now it’s the ultimate cinephile flex. A viral Letterboxd review is a status symbol. Film podcasts treat going to the movies like it’s a sport. So, how did we get here? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But today, movie theater chains like AMC, Regal, and Alamo Drafthouse have bounced back. The movie-going experience is now a gamified, thriving subculture that reveres in-person community. The AMC A-list subscription used to be for nerds, and now it’s the ultimate cinephile flex. A viral Letterboxd review is a status symbol. Film podcasts treat going to the movies like it’s a sport. So, how did we get here? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today we’re diving into the internet’s mission to save cinema and how an iconic Hollywood landmark almost fell to ruin — until a very online Gen Z filmmaker rallied to the public to save it. Get ready. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today we’re diving into the internet’s mission to save cinema and how an iconic Hollywood landmark almost fell to ruin — until a very online Gen Z filmmaker rallied to the public to save it. Get ready. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For today’s deep dive, I’m handing the keyboard over to my friend, Candice Lim. If she sounds familiar, it’s because you’ve definitely heard her on Close All Tabs before. She’s also an internet culture reporter, a film and TV critic, and one of my favorite people to follow on Letterboxd. Candice only converted to the Church of Cinema after the release of \u003cem>Challengers\u003c/em>, the horny tennis love triangle extravaganza starring Zendaya, which Candice saw in theaters five times. And she’s not the only one trying to save the art of movie going. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For today’s deep dive, I’m handing the keyboard over to my friend, Candice Lim. If she sounds familiar, it’s because you’ve definitely heard her on Close All Tabs before. She’s also an internet culture reporter, a film and TV critic, and one of my favorite people to follow on Letterboxd. Candice only converted to the Church of Cinema after the release of \u003cem>Challengers\u003c/em>, the horny tennis love triangle extravaganza starring Zendaya, which Candice saw in theaters five times. And she’s not the only one trying to save the art of movie going. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay. Take it away, Candice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay. Take it away, Candice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Thanks Morgan. In the words of Nicole Kidman… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Thanks Morgan. In the words of Nicole Kidman… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Nicole Kidman for AMC from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> We come to this place for magic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Nicole Kidman for AMC from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> We come to this place for magic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So let’s open a new tab: the Savior of the Cinerama Dome. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So let’s open a new tab: the Savior of the Cinerama Dome. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I wanna take us to Sunset Boulevard on a recent Saturday morning in Los Angeles. I’m standing in front of this big, white dome made out of 316 interlocking concrete panels. It’s the Cinerama Dome. It’s hard to miss next to a Veggie Grill and a gym, but for something so big in the dead center of Hollywood, this theater complex feels… dead. The lights that once lit the night sky have been off for years. And the building itself is in a state of disrepair. But, it wasn’t always that way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I wanna take us to Sunset Boulevard on a recent Saturday morning in Los Angeles. I’m standing in front of this big, white dome made out of 316 interlocking concrete panels. It’s the Cinerama Dome. It’s hard to miss next to a Veggie Grill and a gym, but for something so big in the dead center of Hollywood, this theater complex feels… dead. The lights that once lit the night sky have been off for years. And the building itself is in a state of disrepair. But, it wasn’t always that way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I liked coming here to see \u003cem>2001: A Space Odyssey\u003c/em> in 2014. That was my first time seeing a movie with an intermission, and with over 800 or 1,000 people in the audience. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I liked coming here to see \u003cem>2001: A Space Odyssey\u003c/em> in 2014. That was my first time seeing a movie with an intermission, and with over 800 or 1,000 people in the audience. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> This is Ben Steinberg. He’s a cinephile. First off, how many movies have you seen this year? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> This is Ben Steinberg. He’s a cinephile. First off, how many movies have you seen this year? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Oh, uh, probably over 50 maybe? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Oh, uh, probably over 50 maybe? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> I can tell you it’s 113. It was on Letterboxd. I checked it out. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> I can tell you it’s 113. It was on Letterboxd. I checked it out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Oh, wow. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Oh, wow. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He’s a former child actor. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> When I was like 13 or 14, I got to do the TV show, \u003cem>Brooklyn Nine-Nine\u003c/em>, for a few seasons. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> When I was like 13 or 14, I got to do the TV show, \u003cem>Brooklyn Nine-Nine\u003c/em>, for a few seasons. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Brooklyn Nine-Nine from IMDb]:\u003c/strong> But it’s my bar mitzvah. We were going to grind. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Brooklyn Nine-Nine from IMDb]:\u003c/strong> But it’s my bar mitzvah. We were going to grind. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And, he’s an activist. In fact, when it comes to the movie theater revival movement, he’s kind of the activist. For the last five years, Ben has been running a Twitter account called Save Your Cinema. He got started in 2021, when Angeleno’s received a heartbreaking announcement about the very iconic building we are standing right in front of. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And, he’s an activist. In fact, when it comes to the movie theater revival movement, he’s kind of the activist. For the last five years, Ben has been running a Twitter account called Save Your Cinema. He got started in 2021, when Angeleno’s received a heartbreaking announcement about the very iconic building we are standing right in front of. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Fox 11 Los Angeles story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> And we begin with breaking news, and it is very sad news for movie lovers. Pacific Theaters announcing its ArcLight and Pacific Theaters will not reopen after shutting down last year because of the pandemic. This includes the iconic Cinerama Dome in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Fox 11 Los Angeles story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> And we begin with breaking news, and it is very sad news for movie lovers. Pacific Theaters announcing its ArcLight and Pacific Theaters will not reopen after shutting down last year because of the pandemic. This includes the iconic Cinerama Dome in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> The Dome had been closed in 2020 due to COVID, just like nearly every other theater. Ownership kept promising it would reopen, but it never did, and cinephiles like Ben began to get nervous. To Ben, that announcement in March of 2021 was the nail in the coffin. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> The Dome had been closed in 2020 due to COVID, just like nearly every other theater. Ownership kept promising it would reopen, but it never did, and cinephiles like Ben began to get nervous. To Ben, that announcement in March of 2021 was the nail in the coffin. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> And then after that, they made no further like, press releases or responded to emails. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> And then after that, they made no further like, press releases or responded to emails. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> To understand the importance of this, I need to tell you a bit about the Cinerama Dome and what it means to the city of LA and film history. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> To understand the importance of this, I need to tell you a bit about the Cinerama Dome and what it means to the city of LA and film history. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Dome was opened back in 1963, and it’s the first and only concrete, geodesic dome in the world. For decades, it was known as the place to watch the latest blockbuster, and the first film they ever screened was \u003cem>It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World\u003c/em>, a Stanley Kramer-directed comedy starring Buster Keaton. Then, it became this marquee place to hold premieres, similar to Grauman’s Chinese Theatre — and The Dome made it fun. They turned into a green ogre for \u003cem>Shrek 2\u003c/em>. They became the moon for the 2018 Neil Armstrong biopic, \u003cem>First Man\u003c/em>. A lot of working filmmakers can remember the most formative movie they’ve watched at The Dome with hopes that one day their film would premiere there too. And beyond the iconic look and blockbuster screenings, this particular theater is important to the history of film as a medium. It’s all about the way movies are shot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Dome was opened back in 1963, and it’s the first and only concrete, geodesic dome in the world. For decades, it was known as the place to watch the latest blockbuster, and the first film they ever screened was \u003cem>It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World\u003c/em>, a Stanley Kramer-directed comedy starring Buster Keaton. Then, it became this marquee place to hold premieres, similar to Grauman’s Chinese Theatre — and The Dome made it fun. They turned into a green ogre for \u003cem>Shrek 2\u003c/em>. They became the moon for the 2018 Neil Armstrong biopic, \u003cem>First Man\u003c/em>. A lot of working filmmakers can remember the most formative movie they’ve watched at The Dome with hopes that one day their film would premiere there too. And beyond the iconic look and blockbuster screenings, this particular theater is important to the history of film as a medium. It’s all about the way movies are shot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> There’s like two different versions of Cinerama. There’s the original three-strip Cinerama, which uses literally three lenses, like three cameras together. And then later on, they did the 70mm Cinerama, which is \u003cem>2001: A Space Odyssey\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> There’s like two different versions of Cinerama. There’s the original three-strip Cinerama, which uses literally three lenses, like three cameras together. And then later on, they did the 70mm Cinerama, which is \u003cem>2001: A Space Odyssey\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Without getting too technical, the image 70-millimeter film creates is huge — several times bigger than traditional 35-millimeter. It had to be projected onto a screen that’s large enough to accommodate it. That’s where The Dome comes in. I would describe watching a movie at The Dome as if you were inside The Sphere in Las Vegas. The magnitude of this format, what some call “the great-grandmother of IMAX,” feels magical, especially in the age of vertical video scrolling. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Without getting too technical, the image 70-millimeter film creates is huge — several times bigger than traditional 35-millimeter. It had to be projected onto a screen that’s large enough to accommodate it. That’s where The Dome comes in. I would describe watching a movie at The Dome as if you were inside The Sphere in Las Vegas. The magnitude of this format, what some call “the great-grandmother of IMAX,” feels magical, especially in the age of vertical video scrolling. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Imagine watching something like Christopher Nolan’s \u003cem>Interstellar\u003c/em> at The Dome. It makes you feel like you’re actually on the moon — and you are experiencing this with strangers, all of whom came to this place at this time to share this moment with you. Also, the popcorn is really good. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Imagine watching something like Christopher Nolan’s \u003cem>Interstellar\u003c/em> at The Dome. It makes you feel like you’re actually on the moon — and you are experiencing this with strangers, all of whom came to this place at this time to share this moment with you. Also, the popcorn is really good. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> They have like this really good chef-driven like popcorn. They had like the- the last one they had was Mexican street popcorn. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> They have like this really good chef-driven like popcorn. They had like the- the last one they had was Mexican street popcorn. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Okay, back to the announcement about The Dome’s permanent closure. So, you have this piece of cinema history, an architectural feat, an iconic industry landmark, closing for good. A lot of people were gutted, including and especially Ben. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Okay, back to the announcement about The Dome’s permanent closure. So, you have this piece of cinema history, an architectural feat, an iconic industry landmark, closing for good. A lot of people were gutted, including and especially Ben. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> From what I was told through a few different sources was that they just didn’t believe in the theatrical exhibition box office, like they didn’t think they could make enough money, and like they’re obviously very business-oriented. So, I was just under the assumption that they didn’t believe in like the theatrical exhibition box office for the future of it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> From what I was told through a few different sources was that they just didn’t believe in the theatrical exhibition box office, like they didn’t think they could make enough money, and like they’re obviously very business-oriented. So, I was just under the assumption that they didn’t believe in like the theatrical exhibition box office for the future of it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And every good movie needs a hero, right? Well, for this story, and for a very online group of movie lovers, that hero was Ben. Immediately after the Cinerama Dome’s owners announced it wouldn’t reopen, Ben jumped into action. And even though he might sound mild-mannered, let me tell you: Ben is fearless. And you have to remember the context. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And every good movie needs a hero, right? Well, for this story, and for a very online group of movie lovers, that hero was Ben. Immediately after the Cinerama Dome’s owners announced it wouldn’t reopen, Ben jumped into action. And even though he might sound mild-mannered, let me tell you: Ben is fearless. And you have to remember the context. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was 2021. We were coming out of lockdown. Theater attendance was returning at a crawl. And if there was one barrier Ben felt he needed to break through — it was the doors of The Dome. So, he got his keyboard warriors together and created a petition called Save the Cinerama Dome. And this petition was trying to get the attention of the owners of The Dome, the Decurion Corporation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It was 2021. We were coming out of lockdown. Theater attendance was returning at a crawl. And if there was one barrier Ben felt he needed to break through — it was the doors of The Dome. So, he got his keyboard warriors together and created a petition called Save the Cinerama Dome. And this petition was trying to get the attention of the owners of The Dome, the Decurion Corporation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> It was addressed to the CEO of the Decurion Corporation, so I was hoping to at least get a response from him. Then it quickly got 30,000 signatures, but we never got any response. They didn’t even acknowledge it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> It was addressed to the CEO of the Decurion Corporation, so I was hoping to at least get a response from him. Then it quickly got 30,000 signatures, but we never got any response. They didn’t even acknowledge it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ben was frustrated, because as far as he could tell, there wasn’t a good reason for The Dome’s permanent closure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ben was frustrated, because as far as he could tell, there wasn’t a good reason for The Dome’s permanent closure. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Company that owns it, they never went bankrupt, the parent company, they just decided to shut down the theater. So, just the whole like situation was very mysterious, like they have no website and no phone line, and then I started to look at their other properties that they own, and they own some other historic cinemas that have been abandoned for around 25 years… So I kind of got paranoid that they were planning that for The Dome. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Company that owns it, they never went bankrupt, the parent company, they just decided to shut down the theater. So, just the whole like situation was very mysterious, like they have no website and no phone line, and then I started to look at their other properties that they own, and they own some other historic cinemas that have been abandoned for around 25 years… So I kind of got paranoid that they were planning that for The Dome. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> It’s true. Let’s get into some backstory. Okay, so the Decurion Corporation is owned by the Formans, a billionaire family that owned two major movie chains in California: the Pacific Theater, which started all the way back in 1946, and ArcLight Cinemas, which operated The Dome as well as other beloved LA theaters. But both chains were permanently closed down in 2021, and The Dome, with its peeling walls and overgrown vines, definitely looks like it’s been closed for five years. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> It’s true. Let’s get into some backstory. Okay, so the Decurion Corporation is owned by the Formans, a billionaire family that owned two major movie chains in California: the Pacific Theater, which started all the way back in 1946, and ArcLight Cinemas, which operated The Dome as well as other beloved LA theaters. But both chains were permanently closed down in 2021, and The Dome, with its peeling walls and overgrown vines, definitely looks like it’s been closed for five years. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I was documenting just like the deterioration of it, which was crazy, just seeing like stuff falling off just because it’s been abandoned for so long. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I was documenting just like the deterioration of it, which was crazy, just seeing like stuff falling off just because it’s been abandoned for so long. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ben got tired of seeing this beloved theater stand idly by — wasting away as what some have called, “a tax write-off.” He got this crazy idea. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ben got tired of seeing this beloved theater stand idly by — wasting away as what some have called, “a tax write-off.” He got this crazy idea. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ve had the idea for like three years, but I knew that once I did it, it could be like the end of the Save the Cinerama Dome campaign. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ve had the idea for like three years, but I knew that once I did it, it could be like the end of the Save the Cinerama Dome campaign. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He basically wanted to project a Page Six headline-style photo of the Decurion executives onto The Dome. Once he got the idea, he started a GoFundMe, which raised more than $2,000, and those dollars went toward hiring a projectionist, a security guard, and a little rehearsal… A few days before the stunt. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He basically wanted to project a Page Six headline-style photo of the Decurion executives onto The Dome. Once he got the idea, he started a GoFundMe, which raised more than $2,000, and those dollars went toward hiring a projectionist, a security guard, and a little rehearsal… A few days before the stunt. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I got a professional projection engineer to do it. It just said, “Reopen The Dome,” and then just the images of the CEO and the vice president of development. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I got a professional projection engineer to do it. It just said, “Reopen The Dome,” and then just the images of the CEO and the vice president of development. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He actually pulled it off on a busy Friday night when the sun went down and the projection went up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He actually pulled it off on a busy Friday night when the sun went down and the projection went up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I was right between the two big trees and the lampposts, in front of the Los Angeles Film School, but on the sidewalk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I was right between the two big trees and the lampposts, in front of the Los Angeles Film School, but on the sidewalk. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Do you notice people stopping and staring at it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Do you notice people stopping and staring at it? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we got a lot of attention like, everyone was looking at the projection and like people in their cars were like, throwing their thumbs up and like, applauding me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we got a lot of attention like, everyone was looking at the projection and like people in their cars were like, throwing their thumbs up and like, applauding me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But according to Ben, the reason his stunt even went viral is because of the cops. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But according to Ben, the reason his stunt even went viral is because of the cops. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Lasted for like two or three hours and then the police came — the police specifically said the owners like don’t want me to get arrested or citated, they just want me to know they consider it a form of escalation and harassment, but I think it was definitely like the Streisand effect. I think it’s a blessing in disguise that they called the police, because I think if they didn’t it wouldn’t have gone as viral. So, I think it definitely drew attention on them. I just wanted to remind them that like, they owned the Cinerama Dome and the public wanted it to reopen. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Lasted for like two or three hours and then the police came — the police specifically said the owners like don’t want me to get arrested or citated, they just want me to know they consider it a form of escalation and harassment, but I think it was definitely like the Streisand effect. I think it’s a blessing in disguise that they called the police, because I think if they didn’t it wouldn’t have gone as viral. So, I think it definitely drew attention on them. I just wanted to remind them that like, they owned the Cinerama Dome and the public wanted it to reopen. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So even though the cops said they were not going to arrest Ben, after two hours, he felt like it was time to go home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So even though the cops said they were not going to arrest Ben, after two hours, he felt like it was time to go home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> After I posted about it, it went viral and I knew that was going to kick some things in motion. And then like, the next day I saw that the executives for the company started viewing my LinkedIn profile. So that was definitely a good sign. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> After I posted about it, it went viral and I knew that was going to kick some things in motion. And then like, the next day I saw that the executives for the company started viewing my LinkedIn profile. So that was definitely a good sign. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So Ben finally got the attention of The Dome’s owners. They were checking out his LinkedIn — then came a public hearing where The Dome’s representative was going to be there. So Ben got a second idea, to flood the zone with his supporters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So Ben finally got the attention of The Dome’s owners. They were checking out his LinkedIn — then came a public hearing where The Dome’s representative was going to be there. So Ben got a second idea, to flood the zone with his supporters. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> She was asked specifically about the Save the Cinerama Dome campaign and like my projection, and she responded saying that the ownership took notice of it and the extreme public interest in wanting The Dome to reopen. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> She was asked specifically about the Save the Cinerama Dome campaign and like my projection, and she responded saying that the ownership took notice of it and the extreme public interest in wanting The Dome to reopen. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But it was very, We Here For You, from \u003cem>Succession\u003c/em>, because it’s one thing to say we’re noticing interest versus acting on that interest. So Ben decided to give them a self-proclaimed deadline, August 20th, and they had to either announce they were reopening The Dome or find someone to lease the theater. He wasn’t sure if they were going to actually meet that deadline, but for some reason, he felt closer and closer to a victory. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But it was very, We Here For You, from \u003cem>Succession\u003c/em>, because it’s one thing to say we’re noticing interest versus acting on that interest. So Ben decided to give them a self-proclaimed deadline, August 20th, and they had to either announce they were reopening The Dome or find someone to lease the theater. He wasn’t sure if they were going to actually meet that deadline, but for some reason, he felt closer and closer to a victory. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I think the ArcLight needed someone like him who just wouldn’t back down and wouldn’t take no for an answer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I think the ArcLight needed someone like him who just wouldn’t back down and wouldn’t take no for an answer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi Eren is the founder of 11am Saturday, a Substack newsletter she calls a movie restoration project. She interviewed Ben for her Substack back in 2024 before the stunt happened. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi Eren is the founder of 11am Saturday, a Substack newsletter she calls a movie restoration project. She interviewed Ben for her Substack back in 2024 before the stunt happened. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And, you know, he just projected an image onto a building. Like he didn’t break the law. I mean, I don’t know if he technically broke the law, but he didn’t harm anyone. So, if that’s what it took to get the owners to act, that’s good to know. The fact that he raised that awareness in them is amazing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And, you know, he just projected an image onto a building. Like he didn’t break the law. I mean, I don’t know if he technically broke the law, but he didn’t harm anyone. So, if that’s what it took to get the owners to act, that’s good to know. The fact that he raised that awareness in them is amazing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And after years of back and forth, online petitions, and filmmakers like Edgar Wright, Benny Safdie, and Sean Baker showing support, for the first time in a long time, it looked like moviegoers just might have the chance to see The Dome’s silver screen light up once again. Ben is one of the many people trying to keep movie theaters alive — but his efforts are just the most visible piece… of a movie subculture that has come roaring back after cinemas were pronounced dead only a few years ago. And the driving force behind it? Gen Z. We’ll get into that after the break. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And after years of back and forth, online petitions, and filmmakers like Edgar Wright, Benny Safdie, and Sean Baker showing support, for the first time in a long time, it looked like moviegoers just might have the chance to see The Dome’s silver screen light up once again. Ben is one of the many people trying to keep movie theaters alive — but his efforts are just the most visible piece… of a movie subculture that has come roaring back after cinemas were pronounced dead only a few years ago. And the driving force behind it? Gen Z. We’ll get into that after the break. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab: is the Gen Z Cinephile Movement real? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab: is the Gen Z Cinephile Movement real? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’ll put myself on blast, because I’m technically in Gen Z, and I am watching an average of three to five movies per week. But, I wasn’t always this way. I actually used to hate movies. I was more of a TV kid. But in 2024, a movie came out that changed how I valued the movie going experience. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’ll put myself on blast, because I’m technically in Gen Z, and I am watching an average of three to five movies per week. But, I wasn’t always this way. I actually used to hate movies. I was more of a TV kid. But in 2024, a movie came out that changed how I valued the movie going experience. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Challengers from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Don’t you want to meet Tashi Duncan? You don’t get it, man. You’ve never seen her in person. She’s in another league. You mean her game? No, I mean she’s the hottest woman I’ve ever seen. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Challengers from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Don’t you want to meet Tashi Duncan? You don’t get it, man. You’ve never seen her in person. She’s in another league. You mean her game? No, I mean she’s the hottest woman I’ve ever seen. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Challengers\u003c/em>, directed by Luca Guadagnino, stars Zendaya, Mike Faist, and Josh O’Connor as three tennis players who sometimes play tennis, but also make out. What got me was the score by the Nine Inch Nails guys. It was electric, and propulsive, and it felt like being in the club — and after many clubless years during the pandemic, I needed that. From that point forward, I became a Letterboxd-er, an AMC A-List member, and a proud solo moviegoer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Challengers\u003c/em>, directed by Luca Guadagnino, stars Zendaya, Mike Faist, and Josh O’Connor as three tennis players who sometimes play tennis, but also make out. What got me was the score by the Nine Inch Nails guys. It was electric, and propulsive, and it felt like being in the club — and after many clubless years during the pandemic, I needed that. From that point forward, I became a Letterboxd-er, an AMC A-List member, and a proud solo moviegoer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I looked around and I didn’t really know many people who still went to the movies, shockingly. It was a couple years ago. And I just felt like the whole experience is dying. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I looked around and I didn’t really know many people who still went to the movies, shockingly. It was a couple years ago. And I just felt like the whole experience is dying. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi Eren, again, founder of 11am Saturday, the movie Substack. While Ezgi admits she is a millennial, she is in a lot of Gen Z majority spaces, and she believes Gen Z is the key to getting butts back into those fuzzy little seats. She says they’re looking to reconnect with real people… And real experiences. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi Eren, again, founder of 11am Saturday, the movie Substack. While Ezgi admits she is a millennial, she is in a lot of Gen Z majority spaces, and she believes Gen Z is the key to getting butts back into those fuzzy little seats. She says they’re looking to reconnect with real people… And real experiences. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I think it’s the kind of oversaturation of the internet, the influx of content that people are subjected to every day, and the need to kind of get off the internet and go more into real life spaces again. I see it in like book clubs. I see it in like dinner parties. I think it’s the same reason for people going back to the movie theaters as well. Yeah, it’s great. I love it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I think it’s the kind of oversaturation of the internet, the influx of content that people are subjected to every day, and the need to kind of get off the internet and go more into real life spaces again. I see it in like book clubs. I see it in like dinner parties. I think it’s the same reason for people going back to the movie theaters as well. Yeah, it’s great. I love it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And it’s not just the movies themselves that are attracting these Gen Z attendees. It’s about what’s happening outside of the theater, online, that’s pushing people to keep going back for more. It’s a digitally fueled cultural shift. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And it’s not just the movies themselves that are attracting these Gen Z attendees. It’s about what’s happening outside of the theater, online, that’s pushing people to keep going back for more. It’s a digitally fueled cultural shift. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For example, let’s talk about Letterboxd, which is a movie logging app that’s akin to the Goodreads of cinema. It can frankly be a little performative. You start by rating a movie out of five stars. Then you can write a review. Some people take it seriously. Others become trolls. But it’s so communal that your favorite filmmakers and film heads — this is Martin Scorsese, Charli XCX, even Jack Harlow — are logging the same movies you are watching. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For example, let’s talk about Letterboxd, which is a movie logging app that’s akin to the Goodreads of cinema. It can frankly be a little performative. You start by rating a movie out of five stars. Then you can write a review. Some people take it seriously. Others become trolls. But it’s so communal that your favorite filmmakers and film heads — this is Martin Scorsese, Charli XCX, even Jack Harlow — are logging the same movies you are watching. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, you have things like the Criterion Closet. You may have heard of the Criterion Collection. They have a YouTube video series called Closet Picks, where prominent film lovers like Francis Ford Coppola, Paul Giamatti, and game designer Hideo Kojima pick their favorite highbrow DVDs off library-looking shelves. It’s a smash hit. But the reason why Gen Z congregates around these film-themed internet platforms is because they are actively curating their tastes — using accessible platforms almost as an educational way to upgrade their cinema game. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then, you have things like the Criterion Closet. You may have heard of the Criterion Collection. They have a YouTube video series called Closet Picks, where prominent film lovers like Francis Ford Coppola, Paul Giamatti, and game designer Hideo Kojima pick their favorite highbrow DVDs off library-looking shelves. It’s a smash hit. But the reason why Gen Z congregates around these film-themed internet platforms is because they are actively curating their tastes — using accessible platforms almost as an educational way to upgrade their cinema game. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because at the end of the day, when you log a movie or post a review, it’s your green light at the of the dock, a bid for connection. It’s a way to attract like-minded people with similar taste. Because that’s what COVID ripped away from a lot of Gen Z people: organic connection in public spaces. And Letterboxd… is considered a public space. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because at the end of the day, when you log a movie or post a review, it’s your green light at the of the dock, a bid for connection. It’s a way to attract like-minded people with similar taste. Because that’s what COVID ripped away from a lot of Gen Z people: organic connection in public spaces. And Letterboxd… is considered a public space. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Letterboxd and like The Criterion and studios that make movies more catered to Gen Z, like I think those are all kind of partially responsible as well, but it’s almost like they are riding a great wave. I think it was going to happen regardless. But then of course, it does matter that Letterboxd, gameified it. It does matter that theaters are engaging more with their audiences on social media. It has become almost like… a brand — you want to associate yourself with a specific theater more now. I think it’s a combination of all those things. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Letterboxd and like The Criterion and studios that make movies more catered to Gen Z, like I think those are all kind of partially responsible as well, but it’s almost like they are riding a great wave. I think it was going to happen regardless. But then of course, it does matter that Letterboxd, gameified it. It does matter that theaters are engaging more with their audiences on social media. It has become almost like… a brand — you want to associate yourself with a specific theater more now. I think it’s a combination of all those things. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Fandango, the movie ticket website, did a study this year, saying that Gen Z, who are about 14 to 29 years old right now, is the most active movie-going generation, seeing about seven movies per year. I’ve also seen headlines about Gen Z being the loneliest generation right now. Is there a connection? Here’s Ben again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Fandango, the movie ticket website, did a study this year, saying that Gen Z, who are about 14 to 29 years old right now, is the most active movie-going generation, seeing about seven movies per year. I’ve also seen headlines about Gen Z being the loneliest generation right now. Is there a connection? Here’s Ben again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I can’t think of like any other third spaces. Like I know AMC Theaters has like a lot of like meetups and like fan clubs where people will just go every week as a group to AMC. So, I think that’s a big thing, I mean like at least for me personally, if I’m doing something social, I’d rather like go to a movie than something else. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I can’t think of like any other third spaces. Like I know AMC Theaters has like a lot of like meetups and like fan clubs where people will just go every week as a group to AMC. So, I think that’s a big thing, I mean like at least for me personally, if I’m doing something social, I’d rather like go to a movie than something else. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi says that even though the intersection of chronically online Gen Z-ers and cinephiles is probably pretty small, it’s a subgroup with growing influence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi says that even though the intersection of chronically online Gen Z-ers and cinephiles is probably pretty small, it’s a subgroup with growing influence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I will say like they’re not big enough to kind of maybe like influence a whole performance of a movie. Like I don’t think everyone who saw \u003cem>Obsession\u003c/em> and made it such a success is- does fit in that category. But I do think they have a big influence on marketing campaigns now for sure. I mean, you see it in like press tours, you see it and how, even like, studios with lower budgets, like they’re doing everything to kind of keep up with the content-ification of movies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I will say like they’re not big enough to kind of maybe like influence a whole performance of a movie. Like I don’t think everyone who saw \u003cem>Obsession\u003c/em> and made it such a success is- does fit in that category. But I do think they have a big influence on marketing campaigns now for sure. I mean, you see it in like press tours, you see it and how, even like, studios with lower budgets, like they’re doing everything to kind of keep up with the content-ification of movies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And like creating like an online experience to try to like get these people to see the movies. So I think their influence is growing for sure and then like after \u003cem>Obsession\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Backrooms\u003c/em> they’re only going to be stronger. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And like creating like an online experience to try to like get these people to see the movies. So I think their influence is growing for sure and then like after \u003cem>Obsession\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Backrooms\u003c/em> they’re only going to be stronger. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Have you ever been influenced by maybe like, a Letterboxd or even a film podcast or something you saw on social media that made you like, I don’t know, wanna go see a movie or made you more excited about something coming up? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Have you ever been influenced by maybe like, a Letterboxd or even a film podcast or something you saw on social media that made you like, I don’t know, wanna go see a movie or made you more excited about something coming up? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, so all the time — all the time. Sometimes it’ll be just like one tweet that I’ll take to heart and go see something. Because I still, I think that’s also the power of these websites is that you can’t really manufacture real interest, right? Like, people don’t spend their hard earned money on things that suck. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, so all the time — all the time. Sometimes it’ll be just like one tweet that I’ll take to heart and go see something. Because I still, I think that’s also the power of these websites is that you can’t really manufacture real interest, right? Like, people don’t spend their hard earned money on things that suck. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And even though you’re listening to three people who love going to the movies, there are things about theater culture that still suck. You need good movies and good moviegoing experiences to capitalize on this wave of interest and keep people coming back. But there’s the perennial problem of bad theater etiquette. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And even though you’re listening to three people who love going to the movies, there are things about theater culture that still suck. You need good movies and good moviegoing experiences to capitalize on this wave of interest and keep people coming back. But there’s the perennial problem of bad theater etiquette. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> You will come across people either on their phone taking pictures of the screen or just talking to their friends or just being like unruly in general. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> You will come across people either on their phone taking pictures of the screen or just talking to their friends or just being like unruly in general. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Then there’s the fierce competition of booking movie tickets. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Then there’s the fierce competition of booking movie tickets. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> The event-izing of the ticket process is very annoying and- and I say that as someone who managed to get tickets to \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em>. It’s still not a good process and it could almost turn into like a deterrent for people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> The event-izing of the ticket process is very annoying and- and I say that as someone who managed to get tickets to \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em>. It’s still not a good process and it could almost turn into like a deterrent for people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But the big one, the thing that Ben cares most about, is the fact that it’s not always guaranteed that our favorite movie theaters will be there tomorrow. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But the big one, the thing that Ben cares most about, is the fact that it’s not always guaranteed that our favorite movie theaters will be there tomorrow. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> The Regency Theaters Calabasas — it actually literally just got demolished like six months ago and then also the Regancy Theaters in Agoura Hills, which also got demolished just a few months ago, and then also the AMC Promenade 16 which is now demolished. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> The Regency Theaters Calabasas — it actually literally just got demolished like six months ago and then also the Regancy Theaters in Agoura Hills, which also got demolished just a few months ago, and then also the AMC Promenade 16 which is now demolished. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> It seems like movie going and the sport of it is being threatened left and right, but… by who? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> It seems like movie going and the sport of it is being threatened left and right, but… by who? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s open a new tab: who’s the big bad of the movie theater revival movement? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s open a new tab: who’s the big bad of the movie theater revival movement? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, if Ben is our unlikely hero, the face of Gen Z’s push for cinema revival, then who are they up against? Who’s the Joker to Ben’s Batman? When I asked, Ben was hesitant to call anyone out by name, even though he did project the heads of the Decurion Corporation onto a dome. Ezgi was a little more direct. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, if Ben is our unlikely hero, the face of Gen Z’s push for cinema revival, then who are they up against? Who’s the Joker to Ben’s Batman? When I asked, Ben was hesitant to call anyone out by name, even though he did project the heads of the Decurion Corporation onto a dome. Ezgi was a little more direct. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m curious, who do you think are kind of… the enemies or gatekeepers of movie theater preservation. Is it like Netflix? Is it studios? Is it a third thing? Is it billionaires, you know? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m curious, who do you think are kind of… the enemies or gatekeepers of movie theater preservation. Is it like Netflix? Is it studios? Is it a third thing? Is it billionaires, you know? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> As for billionaires, I mean… How much time do we have? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> As for billionaires, I mean… How much time do we have? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> I wanted to talk about one story that I would say was maybe the most controversial last year, which was Netflix threatening or about to acquire Warner Brothers. Could you maybe explain why that acquisition freaked people out and why were people worried? Why were you worried? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> I wanted to talk about one story that I would say was maybe the most controversial last year, which was Netflix threatening or about to acquire Warner Brothers. Could you maybe explain why that acquisition freaked people out and why were people worried? Why were you worried? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Yes, Netflix tried to purchase Warner Brothers — and Netflix, as we know, is a primarily direct-to-streaming service. Now, typically, their window of showing a movie in a theater is super, super short, so if you don’t see it in theaters in that period, you can only watch it on Netflix. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Yes, Netflix tried to purchase Warner Brothers — and Netflix, as we know, is a primarily direct-to-streaming service. Now, typically, their window of showing a movie in a theater is super, super short, so if you don’t see it in theaters in that period, you can only watch it on Netflix. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, obviously, that’s terrible news for a studio like Warner Brothers who… put out like some of our favorite movies that we want to experience in theaters. Especially, you know, they had such a good year with \u003cem>One Battle After Another\u003c/em>. They have \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em> coming out. People just don’t want those to be contained to a television screen. So that was the panic. And I believe they’re still panic there because they are now being sold to Paramount, but we’ll see, we’ll how that goes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, obviously, that’s terrible news for a studio like Warner Brothers who… put out like some of our favorite movies that we want to experience in theaters. Especially, you know, they had such a good year with \u003cem>One Battle After Another\u003c/em>. They have \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em> coming out. People just don’t want those to be contained to a television screen. So that was the panic. And I believe they’re still panic there because they are now being sold to Paramount, but we’ll see, we’ll how that goes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> At the time of this taping, Paramount has officially completed their acquisition of Warner Brothers, and they have now become one giant conglomerate named Skydance. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> At the time of this taping, Paramount has officially completed their acquisition of Warner Brothers, and they have now become one giant conglomerate named Skydance. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Speaking of like acquisitions, I mean, this summer Letterboxd apparently is also possibly going up for sale. A lot of people have put their hats into the ring, but Netflix is one of them. Are you worried at all about Letterboxd, for example, possibly being acquired? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Speaking of like acquisitions, I mean, this summer Letterboxd apparently is also possibly going up for sale. A lot of people have put their hats into the ring, but Netflix is one of them. Are you worried at all about Letterboxd, for example, possibly being acquired? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I’m very worried about that, yes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And it seems inevitable. I just don’t know who can buy it that wouldn’t ruin it, you know? It’s not a perfect app right now, but it still feels very much like, belonging to the people… that the idea of like any major corporation owning it, it’s so easy to change it in a way that kind of ruins the movie culture, which is already kind of fragile. That’s not even like getting to the fact that they will probably sell all that data and use it to train AI and all that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And it seems inevitable. I just don’t know who can buy it that wouldn’t ruin it, you know? It’s not a perfect app right now, but it still feels very much like, belonging to the people… that the idea of like any major corporation owning it, it’s so easy to change it in a way that kind of ruins the movie culture, which is already kind of fragile. That’s not even like getting to the fact that they will probably sell all that data and use it to train AI and all that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So now we’re identifying a few big bads in the water, who are threatening two separate issues. We have people like the Forman family and their Decurion Corporation who are responsible for closing physical spaces to watch movies. Then, you have media giants, like Netflix, prioritizing streaming over theatrical releases and threatening the actual content that goes into those physical spaces. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So now we’re identifying a few big bads in the water, who are threatening two separate issues. We have people like the Forman family and their Decurion Corporation who are responsible for closing physical spaces to watch movies. Then, you have media giants, like Netflix, prioritizing streaming over theatrical releases and threatening the actual content that goes into those physical spaces. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, on at least one of those fronts, there’s good news if you’re a movie lover. Because Ben’s projection stunt, the public hearing, the Twitter updates from Save Your Cinema — it all worked. On July 22nd, two months after he lit up the dome with images of the Decurion top brass, Ben woke up to some great news. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, on at least one of those fronts, there’s good news if you’re a movie lover. Because Ben’s projection stunt, the public hearing, the Twitter updates from Save Your Cinema — it all worked. On July 22nd, two months after he lit up the dome with images of the Decurion top brass, Ben woke up to some great news. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of KTLA 5 story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> One of Hollywood’s most iconic theaters could be making a comeback. Deadline broke the news that Sony Entertainment could be planning to resurrect the world-famous Cinerama Dome and ArcLight Hollywood Cinema. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of KTLA 5 story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> One of Hollywood’s most iconic theaters could be making a comeback. Deadline broke the news that Sony Entertainment could be planning to resurrect the world-famous Cinerama Dome and ArcLight Hollywood Cinema. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So, finally, after five years, The Dome is saved, and Angeleno’s cannot be happier. Alamo Drafthouse, which is owned by Sony Pictures, will reopen the theater in 2028. And per a Sony Pictures spokesperson, renovations have already started — from the marquee lights coming back on, to The Dome’s first power washing in years. So the question isn’t so much, will the Cinerama Dome be saved? But instead, will people go back? If Gen Z has anything to say about it, the answer is certainly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So, finally, after five years, The Dome is saved, and Angeleno’s cannot be happier. Alamo Drafthouse, which is owned by Sony Pictures, will reopen the theater in 2028. And per a Sony Pictures spokesperson, renovations have already started — from the marquee lights coming back on, to The Dome’s first power washing in years. So the question isn’t so much, will the Cinerama Dome be saved? But instead, will people go back? If Gen Z has anything to say about it, the answer is certainly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I kind of feel like if I just didn’t do any of this, The Dome would kind of just still be sitting closed with them telling people it’s gonna reopen next year, like they always did. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I kind of feel like if I just didn’t do any of this, The Dome would kind of just still be sitting closed with them telling people it’s gonna reopen next year, like they always did. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And Ben isn’t done being a local hero. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I raised attention about the Laemmle Theaters in North Hollywood, and luckily they got that theater saved from being demolished and turned into apartments. And then, also saving the Laemmle Theaters in Pasadena and getting Landmark to take over the lease, we did a petition for that, and then I’ve just been sharing other people’s campaigns and now like it’s gone international, so I’m trying to save the, I think it’s pronounced Pallas Cinema in Greece. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Do you see yourself as the Spider-Man of movie theaters where it’s like you’re chilling until someone calls you and is like, “Hi, we need to open a theater,” and you’re just like that guy. How do you feel about being almost the person they send the Batman signal for? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Do you see yourself as the Spider-Man of movie theaters where it’s like you’re chilling until someone calls you and is like, “Hi, we need to open a theater,” and you’re just like that guy. How do you feel about being almost the person they send the Batman signal for? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I think it’s amazing. It’s definitely very cool that they reach out to me and hopefully I can like be even more involved with other theaters or like one specific theater company. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I think it’s amazing. It’s definitely very cool that they reach out to me and hopefully I can like be even more involved with other theaters or like one specific theater company. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Even if you’re not a chronically online Gen Z cinephile trying to post an opening weekend review on Letterboxd, going to the movies is still a classic American luxury. It’s the thing you do with your cousins from out of town. It’s what some people do on Christmas when they have nowhere else to go. And sometimes, you just wanna come to this place for magic. So yes, for a few of us, movie theaters are still worth the investment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Even if you’re not a chronically online Gen Z cinephile trying to post an opening weekend review on Letterboxd, going to the movies is still a classic American luxury. It’s the thing you do with your cousins from out of town. It’s what some people do on Christmas when they have nowhere else to go. And sometimes, you just wanna come to this place for magic. So yes, for a few of us, movie theaters are still worth the investment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I went to see Spider-Man and — kind of accidentally on day one, I wasn’t planning on it. And I feel like everyone was dressed up in some variation of like red and blue. And I was like, “Wait, I forgot that people used to do this.” Like, I forgot that this was a thing, because it’s been so long. And you know what? Like, that was also such a respectful audience that had great theater etiquette because people actually cared about seeing the movies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I went to see Spider-Man and — kind of accidentally on day one, I wasn’t planning on it. And I feel like everyone was dressed up in some variation of like red and blue. And I was like, “Wait, I forgot that people used to do this.” Like, I forgot that this was a thing, because it’s been so long. And you know what? Like, that was also such a respectful audience that had great theater etiquette because people actually cared about seeing the movies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And Ezgi’s right. One of my favorite memories of 2026 was seeing \u003cem>The Odyssey\u003c/em> at the Universal CityWalk AMC in IMAX on 70 millimeter at 2 a.m. And yes, it did screw up my sleep schedule for about five weeks, but I should be getting it back on track just in time to see \u003cem>Dune: Part Three\u003c/em> on opening weekend in IMAX on 70-millimeter, also, at 2 a.m. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And Ezgi’s right. One of my favorite memories of 2026 was seeing \u003cem>The Odyssey\u003c/em> at the Universal CityWalk AMC in IMAX on 70 millimeter at 2 a.m. And yes, it did screw up my sleep schedule for about five weeks, but I should be getting it back on track just in time to see \u003cem>Dune: Part Three\u003c/em> on opening weekend in IMAX on 70-millimeter, also, at 2 a.m. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For Close All Tabs, I’m Candice Lim. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Thanks again to Candice for taking us on that deep dive. If you’re dying to open more tabs about Ben, the Cinerama Dome, and his quest to save LA’s movie theaters, we’ll have some links in the episode description. You can also find more of Candice’s work there. And stick around after the credits for some bonus content. That’s it for this week. I have a movie to catch, so let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Thanks again to Candice for taking us on that deep dive. If you’re dying to open more tabs about Ben, the Cinerama Dome, and his quest to save LA’s movie theaters, we’ll have some links in the episode description. You can also find more of Candice’s work there. And stick around after the credits for some bonus content. That’s it for this week. I have a movie to catch, so let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported by Candice Lim. It was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported by Candice Lim. It was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say now imagine if there’s a cafe that’s also a theater and you can just spend the whole day there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say now imagine if there’s a cafe that’s also a theater and you can just spend the whole day there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> You’ve been stomping this ground for a little bit and I- honestly you need to pull a Ben Steinberg. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> You’ve been stomping this ground for a little bit and I- honestly you need to pull a Ben Steinberg. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I know. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Save your stump town mama, like I would sign that petition… I really would because you’re right which is that like I’m going to the Nordstrom E bar And then I’m going to Americana. Let’s combine forces. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Save your stump town mama, like I would sign that petition… I really would because you’re right which is that like I’m going to the Nordstrom E bar And then I’m going to Americana. Let’s combine forces. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Let’s figure this out. Like let’s — Community Goods inside an AMC. Imagine the lines. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Let’s figure this out. Like let’s — Community Goods inside an AMC. Imagine the lines. \u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In 2020, movie theaters were on their last legs. Lockdowns and years of declining interest had forced historic cinemas to shutter, including an LA icon, the Cinerama Dome. But recently a new generation of cinema-lovers has been using social media to revitalize the culture of in person movie-watching. Internet culture reporter Candice Lim explores the rise of the Gen Z cinephile movement, and heads to Hollywood to meet the young filmmaker and activist who is fighting to bring the Cinerama Dome back from the dead.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests: \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"candicelim.substack.com\">Candice Lim\u003c/a>, internet culture reporter\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/SaveYourCinema\">Ben Steinberg\u003c/a>, filmmaker, actor, and founder of Save Your Cinema\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.11amsaturday.com/\">Ezgi Eren\u003c/a>, founder of \u003cem>11am Saturda\u003c/em>y\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://hearinla.substack.com/p/ben-the-man-who-saved-the-cinerama\">Ben, the Man who Saved the Cinerama Dome\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Hear in LA Substack\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/hollywood-cinerama-dome-benjamin-steinberg-chris-forman-1236556697/\">An Activist Spent Years Pushing for Hollywood’s Cinerama Dome to Reopen. Why Did He Just Stop?\u003c/a> — Gary Baum, \u003cem>The Hollywood Reporter\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.indiewire.com/news/breaking-news/cinerama-dome-advocates-public-pressure-owners-reopen-1235193534/\">Cinerama Dome Advocates Take Rare Chance to Put Public Pressure on Owners to Reopen\u003c/a> — Brian Welk, \u003cem>IndieWire\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.indiewire.com/features/podcast/how-ben-steinberg-saved-cinerama-dome-1235209487/\">How 26-Year-Old Ben Steinberg Saved the Cinerama Dome\u003c/a> — Ryan Lattanzio & Anne Thompson, \u003cem>IndieWire\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2025/film/news/save-cinerama-dome-campaign-reopening-uncertain-1236363487/\">Supporters Rally to Save the Cinerama Dome as Future of Hollywood Theater Complex Remains Uncertain\u003c/a> — Pat Saperstein & Jazz Tangcay, \u003cem>Variety\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/1v3lcq2/in_praise_of_ben_steinberg_the_hero_who_stood_up/\">In praise of Ben Steinberg, the hero who stood up and demanded the Cinerama Dome not be just one more derelict, abandoned Hollywood landmark\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Reddit\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hi Tabby Cats! Do you have an internet trend, tech subculture or online oddity you’ve been wondering about? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate. Go to kqed dot org slash Close All Tabs to submit your question. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For a while, movie theaters had been on a downward spiral. Even the biggest names in Hollywood lamented their demise. Back in 2014, Quentin Tarantino warned of the death of cinema — thanks to the shift from analog filmmaking to digital formats. A few years later, NATO, not that one, but actually the National Alliance of Theater Owners, recorded the lowest theater attendance in over two decades, as tickets got more expensive than ever. In 2019, New York Times film critic A.O. Scott questioned whether streaming would kill cinema, which is actually what Cillian Murphy’s character, a video store owner, predicted in the 2007 romcom, \u003cem>Watching the Detectives\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>[Begin clip of \u003c/em>Watching the Detectives\u003cem>]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So Neil, what are you gonna do when this place goes tits up? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Well, I don’t think that’s gonna happen for a few years, you know, not until people can get any movie they want beamed directly into their TV set and I’m dead meat. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>[End clip of \u003c/em>Watching the Detectives\u003cem>]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And then, a year after that New York Times story came out, the pandemic hit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Inside Edition story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Box office sales at movie theaters over the weekend plummeted to a 20-year low. Ticket sales were even worse than in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of WPRI story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Leadership at Cinemas 8 taking to social media saying the pandemic has made it economically impossible to reopen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The pandemic shut down cinemas around the world with no real safety net and some theaters never opened up again. Hollywood had poured millions and millions of dollars into blockbusters that couldn’t make it to the big screen. Instead, at the height of lockdown, they skipped theaters and went straight to streaming for viewers to watch from the safety of their homes. I’m talking cinematic masterpieces like \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em>… being watched on an iPad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But today, movie theater chains like AMC, Regal, and Alamo Drafthouse have bounced back. The movie-going experience is now a gamified, thriving subculture that reveres in-person community. The AMC A-list subscription used to be for nerds, and now it’s the ultimate cinephile flex. A viral Letterboxd review is a status symbol. Film podcasts treat going to the movies like it’s a sport. So, how did we get here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Today we’re diving into the internet’s mission to save cinema and how an iconic Hollywood landmark almost fell to ruin — until a very online Gen Z filmmaker rallied to the public to save it. Get ready. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For today’s deep dive, I’m handing the keyboard over to my friend, Candice Lim. If she sounds familiar, it’s because you’ve definitely heard her on Close All Tabs before. She’s also an internet culture reporter, a film and TV critic, and one of my favorite people to follow on Letterboxd. Candice only converted to the Church of Cinema after the release of \u003cem>Challengers\u003c/em>, the horny tennis love triangle extravaganza starring Zendaya, which Candice saw in theaters five times. And she’s not the only one trying to save the art of movie going. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Okay. Take it away, Candice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Thanks Morgan. In the words of Nicole Kidman… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Nicole Kidman for AMC from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> We come to this place for magic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So let’s open a new tab: the Savior of the Cinerama Dome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I wanna take us to Sunset Boulevard on a recent Saturday morning in Los Angeles. I’m standing in front of this big, white dome made out of 316 interlocking concrete panels. It’s the Cinerama Dome. It’s hard to miss next to a Veggie Grill and a gym, but for something so big in the dead center of Hollywood, this theater complex feels… dead. The lights that once lit the night sky have been off for years. And the building itself is in a state of disrepair. But, it wasn’t always that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I liked coming here to see \u003cem>2001: A Space Odyssey\u003c/em> in 2014. That was my first time seeing a movie with an intermission, and with over 800 or 1,000 people in the audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> This is Ben Steinberg. He’s a cinephile. First off, how many movies have you seen this year? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Oh, uh, probably over 50 maybe? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> I can tell you it’s 113. It was on Letterboxd. I checked it out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Oh, wow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He’s a former child actor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> When I was like 13 or 14, I got to do the TV show, \u003cem>Brooklyn Nine-Nine\u003c/em>, for a few seasons. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Brooklyn Nine-Nine from IMDb]:\u003c/strong> But it’s my bar mitzvah. We were going to grind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And, he’s an activist. In fact, when it comes to the movie theater revival movement, he’s kind of the activist. For the last five years, Ben has been running a Twitter account called Save Your Cinema. He got started in 2021, when Angeleno’s received a heartbreaking announcement about the very iconic building we are standing right in front of. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Fox 11 Los Angeles story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> And we begin with breaking news, and it is very sad news for movie lovers. Pacific Theaters announcing its ArcLight and Pacific Theaters will not reopen after shutting down last year because of the pandemic. This includes the iconic Cinerama Dome in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> The Dome had been closed in 2020 due to COVID, just like nearly every other theater. Ownership kept promising it would reopen, but it never did, and cinephiles like Ben began to get nervous. To Ben, that announcement in March of 2021 was the nail in the coffin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> And then after that, they made no further like, press releases or responded to emails. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> To understand the importance of this, I need to tell you a bit about the Cinerama Dome and what it means to the city of LA and film history. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Dome was opened back in 1963, and it’s the first and only concrete, geodesic dome in the world. For decades, it was known as the place to watch the latest blockbuster, and the first film they ever screened was \u003cem>It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World\u003c/em>, a Stanley Kramer-directed comedy starring Buster Keaton. Then, it became this marquee place to hold premieres, similar to Grauman’s Chinese Theatre — and The Dome made it fun. They turned into a green ogre for \u003cem>Shrek 2\u003c/em>. They became the moon for the 2018 Neil Armstrong biopic, \u003cem>First Man\u003c/em>. A lot of working filmmakers can remember the most formative movie they’ve watched at The Dome with hopes that one day their film would premiere there too. And beyond the iconic look and blockbuster screenings, this particular theater is important to the history of film as a medium. It’s all about the way movies are shot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> There’s like two different versions of Cinerama. There’s the original three-strip Cinerama, which uses literally three lenses, like three cameras together. And then later on, they did the 70mm Cinerama, which is \u003cem>2001: A Space Odyssey\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Without getting too technical, the image 70-millimeter film creates is huge — several times bigger than traditional 35-millimeter. It had to be projected onto a screen that’s large enough to accommodate it. That’s where The Dome comes in. I would describe watching a movie at The Dome as if you were inside The Sphere in Las Vegas. The magnitude of this format, what some call “the great-grandmother of IMAX,” feels magical, especially in the age of vertical video scrolling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Imagine watching something like Christopher Nolan’s \u003cem>Interstellar\u003c/em> at The Dome. It makes you feel like you’re actually on the moon — and you are experiencing this with strangers, all of whom came to this place at this time to share this moment with you. Also, the popcorn is really good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> They have like this really good chef-driven like popcorn. They had like the- the last one they had was Mexican street popcorn. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Okay, back to the announcement about The Dome’s permanent closure. So, you have this piece of cinema history, an architectural feat, an iconic industry landmark, closing for good. A lot of people were gutted, including and especially Ben. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> From what I was told through a few different sources was that they just didn’t believe in the theatrical exhibition box office, like they didn’t think they could make enough money, and like they’re obviously very business-oriented. So, I was just under the assumption that they didn’t believe in like the theatrical exhibition box office for the future of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And every good movie needs a hero, right? Well, for this story, and for a very online group of movie lovers, that hero was Ben. Immediately after the Cinerama Dome’s owners announced it wouldn’t reopen, Ben jumped into action. And even though he might sound mild-mannered, let me tell you: Ben is fearless. And you have to remember the context. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It was 2021. We were coming out of lockdown. Theater attendance was returning at a crawl. And if there was one barrier Ben felt he needed to break through — it was the doors of The Dome. So, he got his keyboard warriors together and created a petition called Save the Cinerama Dome. And this petition was trying to get the attention of the owners of The Dome, the Decurion Corporation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> It was addressed to the CEO of the Decurion Corporation, so I was hoping to at least get a response from him. Then it quickly got 30,000 signatures, but we never got any response. They didn’t even acknowledge it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ben was frustrated, because as far as he could tell, there wasn’t a good reason for The Dome’s permanent closure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Company that owns it, they never went bankrupt, the parent company, they just decided to shut down the theater. So, just the whole like situation was very mysterious, like they have no website and no phone line, and then I started to look at their other properties that they own, and they own some other historic cinemas that have been abandoned for around 25 years… So I kind of got paranoid that they were planning that for The Dome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> It’s true. Let’s get into some backstory. Okay, so the Decurion Corporation is owned by the Formans, a billionaire family that owned two major movie chains in California: the Pacific Theater, which started all the way back in 1946, and ArcLight Cinemas, which operated The Dome as well as other beloved LA theaters. But both chains were permanently closed down in 2021, and The Dome, with its peeling walls and overgrown vines, definitely looks like it’s been closed for five years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I was documenting just like the deterioration of it, which was crazy, just seeing like stuff falling off just because it’s been abandoned for so long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ben got tired of seeing this beloved theater stand idly by — wasting away as what some have called, “a tax write-off.” He got this crazy idea. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ve had the idea for like three years, but I knew that once I did it, it could be like the end of the Save the Cinerama Dome campaign. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He basically wanted to project a Page Six headline-style photo of the Decurion executives onto The Dome. Once he got the idea, he started a GoFundMe, which raised more than $2,000, and those dollars went toward hiring a projectionist, a security guard, and a little rehearsal… A few days before the stunt. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I got a professional projection engineer to do it. It just said, “Reopen The Dome,” and then just the images of the CEO and the vice president of development. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> He actually pulled it off on a busy Friday night when the sun went down and the projection went up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I was right between the two big trees and the lampposts, in front of the Los Angeles Film School, but on the sidewalk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Do you notice people stopping and staring at it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we got a lot of attention like, everyone was looking at the projection and like people in their cars were like, throwing their thumbs up and like, applauding me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But according to Ben, the reason his stunt even went viral is because of the cops. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> Lasted for like two or three hours and then the police came — the police specifically said the owners like don’t want me to get arrested or citated, they just want me to know they consider it a form of escalation and harassment, but I think it was definitely like the Streisand effect. I think it’s a blessing in disguise that they called the police, because I think if they didn’t it wouldn’t have gone as viral. So, I think it definitely drew attention on them. I just wanted to remind them that like, they owned the Cinerama Dome and the public wanted it to reopen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So even though the cops said they were not going to arrest Ben, after two hours, he felt like it was time to go home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> After I posted about it, it went viral and I knew that was going to kick some things in motion. And then like, the next day I saw that the executives for the company started viewing my LinkedIn profile. So that was definitely a good sign. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So Ben finally got the attention of The Dome’s owners. They were checking out his LinkedIn — then came a public hearing where The Dome’s representative was going to be there. So Ben got a second idea, to flood the zone with his supporters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> She was asked specifically about the Save the Cinerama Dome campaign and like my projection, and she responded saying that the ownership took notice of it and the extreme public interest in wanting The Dome to reopen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But it was very, We Here For You, from \u003cem>Succession\u003c/em>, because it’s one thing to say we’re noticing interest versus acting on that interest. So Ben decided to give them a self-proclaimed deadline, August 20th, and they had to either announce they were reopening The Dome or find someone to lease the theater. He wasn’t sure if they were going to actually meet that deadline, but for some reason, he felt closer and closer to a victory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I think the ArcLight needed someone like him who just wouldn’t back down and wouldn’t take no for an answer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi Eren is the founder of 11am Saturday, a Substack newsletter she calls a movie restoration project. She interviewed Ben for her Substack back in 2024 before the stunt happened. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And, you know, he just projected an image onto a building. Like he didn’t break the law. I mean, I don’t know if he technically broke the law, but he didn’t harm anyone. So, if that’s what it took to get the owners to act, that’s good to know. The fact that he raised that awareness in them is amazing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And after years of back and forth, online petitions, and filmmakers like Edgar Wright, Benny Safdie, and Sean Baker showing support, for the first time in a long time, it looked like moviegoers just might have the chance to see The Dome’s silver screen light up once again. Ben is one of the many people trying to keep movie theaters alive — but his efforts are just the most visible piece… of a movie subculture that has come roaring back after cinemas were pronounced dead only a few years ago. And the driving force behind it? Gen Z. We’ll get into that after the break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab: is the Gen Z Cinephile Movement real? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I’ll put myself on blast, because I’m technically in Gen Z, and I am watching an average of three to five movies per week. But, I wasn’t always this way. I actually used to hate movies. I was more of a TV kid. But in 2024, a movie came out that changed how I valued the movie going experience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of Challengers from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> Don’t you want to meet Tashi Duncan? You don’t get it, man. You’ve never seen her in person. She’s in another league. You mean her game? No, I mean she’s the hottest woman I’ve ever seen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Challengers\u003c/em>, directed by Luca Guadagnino, stars Zendaya, Mike Faist, and Josh O’Connor as three tennis players who sometimes play tennis, but also make out. What got me was the score by the Nine Inch Nails guys. It was electric, and propulsive, and it felt like being in the club — and after many clubless years during the pandemic, I needed that. From that point forward, I became a Letterboxd-er, an AMC A-List member, and a proud solo moviegoer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I looked around and I didn’t really know many people who still went to the movies, shockingly. It was a couple years ago. And I just felt like the whole experience is dying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi Eren, again, founder of 11am Saturday, the movie Substack. While Ezgi admits she is a millennial, she is in a lot of Gen Z majority spaces, and she believes Gen Z is the key to getting butts back into those fuzzy little seats. She says they’re looking to reconnect with real people… And real experiences. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I think it’s the kind of oversaturation of the internet, the influx of content that people are subjected to every day, and the need to kind of get off the internet and go more into real life spaces again. I see it in like book clubs. I see it in like dinner parties. I think it’s the same reason for people going back to the movie theaters as well. Yeah, it’s great. I love it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And it’s not just the movies themselves that are attracting these Gen Z attendees. It’s about what’s happening outside of the theater, online, that’s pushing people to keep going back for more. It’s a digitally fueled cultural shift. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For example, let’s talk about Letterboxd, which is a movie logging app that’s akin to the Goodreads of cinema. It can frankly be a little performative. You start by rating a movie out of five stars. Then you can write a review. Some people take it seriously. Others become trolls. But it’s so communal that your favorite filmmakers and film heads — this is Martin Scorsese, Charli XCX, even Jack Harlow — are logging the same movies you are watching. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Then, you have things like the Criterion Closet. You may have heard of the Criterion Collection. They have a YouTube video series called Closet Picks, where prominent film lovers like Francis Ford Coppola, Paul Giamatti, and game designer Hideo Kojima pick their favorite highbrow DVDs off library-looking shelves. It’s a smash hit. But the reason why Gen Z congregates around these film-themed internet platforms is because they are actively curating their tastes — using accessible platforms almost as an educational way to upgrade their cinema game. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because at the end of the day, when you log a movie or post a review, it’s your green light at the of the dock, a bid for connection. It’s a way to attract like-minded people with similar taste. Because that’s what COVID ripped away from a lot of Gen Z people: organic connection in public spaces. And Letterboxd… is considered a public space. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Letterboxd and like The Criterion and studios that make movies more catered to Gen Z, like I think those are all kind of partially responsible as well, but it’s almost like they are riding a great wave. I think it was going to happen regardless. But then of course, it does matter that Letterboxd, gameified it. It does matter that theaters are engaging more with their audiences on social media. It has become almost like… a brand — you want to associate yourself with a specific theater more now. I think it’s a combination of all those things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Fandango, the movie ticket website, did a study this year, saying that Gen Z, who are about 14 to 29 years old right now, is the most active movie-going generation, seeing about seven movies per year. I’ve also seen headlines about Gen Z being the loneliest generation right now. Is there a connection? Here’s Ben again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I can’t think of like any other third spaces. Like I know AMC Theaters has like a lot of like meetups and like fan clubs where people will just go every week as a group to AMC. So, I think that’s a big thing, I mean like at least for me personally, if I’m doing something social, I’d rather like go to a movie than something else. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Ezgi says that even though the intersection of chronically online Gen Z-ers and cinephiles is probably pretty small, it’s a subgroup with growing influence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I will say like they’re not big enough to kind of maybe like influence a whole performance of a movie. Like I don’t think everyone who saw \u003cem>Obsession\u003c/em> and made it such a success is- does fit in that category. But I do think they have a big influence on marketing campaigns now for sure. I mean, you see it in like press tours, you see it and how, even like, studios with lower budgets, like they’re doing everything to kind of keep up with the content-ification of movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And like creating like an online experience to try to like get these people to see the movies. So I think their influence is growing for sure and then like after \u003cem>Obsession\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Backrooms\u003c/em> they’re only going to be stronger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Have you ever been influenced by maybe like, a Letterboxd or even a film podcast or something you saw on social media that made you like, I don’t know, wanna go see a movie or made you more excited about something coming up? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, so all the time — all the time. Sometimes it’ll be just like one tweet that I’ll take to heart and go see something. Because I still, I think that’s also the power of these websites is that you can’t really manufacture real interest, right? Like, people don’t spend their hard earned money on things that suck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And even though you’re listening to three people who love going to the movies, there are things about theater culture that still suck. You need good movies and good moviegoing experiences to capitalize on this wave of interest and keep people coming back. But there’s the perennial problem of bad theater etiquette. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> You will come across people either on their phone taking pictures of the screen or just talking to their friends or just being like unruly in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Then there’s the fierce competition of booking movie tickets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> The event-izing of the ticket process is very annoying and- and I say that as someone who managed to get tickets to \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em>. It’s still not a good process and it could almost turn into like a deterrent for people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> But the big one, the thing that Ben cares most about, is the fact that it’s not always guaranteed that our favorite movie theaters will be there tomorrow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> The Regency Theaters Calabasas — it actually literally just got demolished like six months ago and then also the Regancy Theaters in Agoura Hills, which also got demolished just a few months ago, and then also the AMC Promenade 16 which is now demolished. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> It seems like movie going and the sport of it is being threatened left and right, but… by who? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Let’s open a new tab: who’s the big bad of the movie theater revival movement? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, if Ben is our unlikely hero, the face of Gen Z’s push for cinema revival, then who are they up against? Who’s the Joker to Ben’s Batman? When I asked, Ben was hesitant to call anyone out by name, even though he did project the heads of the Decurion Corporation onto a dome. Ezgi was a little more direct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I’m curious, who do you think are kind of… the enemies or gatekeepers of movie theater preservation. Is it like Netflix? Is it studios? Is it a third thing? Is it billionaires, you know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> As for billionaires, I mean… How much time do we have? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> I wanted to talk about one story that I would say was maybe the most controversial last year, which was Netflix threatening or about to acquire Warner Brothers. Could you maybe explain why that acquisition freaked people out and why were people worried? Why were you worried? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Yes, Netflix tried to purchase Warner Brothers — and Netflix, as we know, is a primarily direct-to-streaming service. Now, typically, their window of showing a movie in a theater is super, super short, so if you don’t see it in theaters in that period, you can only watch it on Netflix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, obviously, that’s terrible news for a studio like Warner Brothers who… put out like some of our favorite movies that we want to experience in theaters. Especially, you know, they had such a good year with \u003cem>One Battle After Another\u003c/em>. They have \u003cem>Dune\u003c/em> coming out. People just don’t want those to be contained to a television screen. So that was the panic. And I believe they’re still panic there because they are now being sold to Paramount, but we’ll see, we’ll how that goes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> At the time of this taping, Paramount has officially completed their acquisition of Warner Brothers, and they have now become one giant conglomerate named Skydance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Speaking of like acquisitions, I mean, this summer Letterboxd apparently is also possibly going up for sale. A lot of people have put their hats into the ring, but Netflix is one of them. Are you worried at all about Letterboxd, for example, possibly being acquired? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I’m very worried about that, yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> And it seems inevitable. I just don’t know who can buy it that wouldn’t ruin it, you know? It’s not a perfect app right now, but it still feels very much like, belonging to the people… that the idea of like any major corporation owning it, it’s so easy to change it in a way that kind of ruins the movie culture, which is already kind of fragile. That’s not even like getting to the fact that they will probably sell all that data and use it to train AI and all that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So now we’re identifying a few big bads in the water, who are threatening two separate issues. We have people like the Forman family and their Decurion Corporation who are responsible for closing physical spaces to watch movies. Then, you have media giants, like Netflix, prioritizing streaming over theatrical releases and threatening the actual content that goes into those physical spaces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But, on at least one of those fronts, there’s good news if you’re a movie lover. Because Ben’s projection stunt, the public hearing, the Twitter updates from Save Your Cinema — it all worked. On July 22nd, two months after he lit up the dome with images of the Decurion top brass, Ben woke up to some great news. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip of KTLA 5 story from YouTube]:\u003c/strong> One of Hollywood’s most iconic theaters could be making a comeback. Deadline broke the news that Sony Entertainment could be planning to resurrect the world-famous Cinerama Dome and ArcLight Hollywood Cinema. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> So, finally, after five years, The Dome is saved, and Angeleno’s cannot be happier. Alamo Drafthouse, which is owned by Sony Pictures, will reopen the theater in 2028. And per a Sony Pictures spokesperson, renovations have already started — from the marquee lights coming back on, to The Dome’s first power washing in years. So the question isn’t so much, will the Cinerama Dome be saved? But instead, will people go back? If Gen Z has anything to say about it, the answer is certainly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I kind of feel like if I just didn’t do any of this, The Dome would kind of just still be sitting closed with them telling people it’s gonna reopen next year, like they always did. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And Ben isn’t done being a local hero. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I raised attention about the Laemmle Theaters in North Hollywood, and luckily they got that theater saved from being demolished and turned into apartments. And then, also saving the Laemmle Theaters in Pasadena and getting Landmark to take over the lease, we did a petition for that, and then I’ve just been sharing other people’s campaigns and now like it’s gone international, so I’m trying to save the, I think it’s pronounced Pallas Cinema in Greece. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Do you see yourself as the Spider-Man of movie theaters where it’s like you’re chilling until someone calls you and is like, “Hi, we need to open a theater,” and you’re just like that guy. How do you feel about being almost the person they send the Batman signal for? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ben Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I think it’s amazing. It’s definitely very cool that they reach out to me and hopefully I can like be even more involved with other theaters or like one specific theater company. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Even if you’re not a chronically online Gen Z cinephile trying to post an opening weekend review on Letterboxd, going to the movies is still a classic American luxury. It’s the thing you do with your cousins from out of town. It’s what some people do on Christmas when they have nowhere else to go. And sometimes, you just wanna come to this place for magic. So yes, for a few of us, movie theaters are still worth the investment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I went to see Spider-Man and — kind of accidentally on day one, I wasn’t planning on it. And I feel like everyone was dressed up in some variation of like red and blue. And I was like, “Wait, I forgot that people used to do this.” Like, I forgot that this was a thing, because it’s been so long. And you know what? Like, that was also such a respectful audience that had great theater etiquette because people actually cared about seeing the movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> And Ezgi’s right. One of my favorite memories of 2026 was seeing \u003cem>The Odyssey\u003c/em> at the Universal CityWalk AMC in IMAX on 70 millimeter at 2 a.m. And yes, it did screw up my sleep schedule for about five weeks, but I should be getting it back on track just in time to see \u003cem>Dune: Part Three\u003c/em> on opening weekend in IMAX on 70-millimeter, also, at 2 a.m. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For Close All Tabs, I’m Candice Lim. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Thanks again to Candice for taking us on that deep dive. If you’re dying to open more tabs about Ben, the Cinerama Dome, and his quest to save LA’s movie theaters, we’ll have some links in the episode description. You can also find more of Candice’s work there. And stick around after the credits for some bonus content. That’s it for this week. I have a movie to catch, so let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported by Candice Lim. It was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say now imagine if there’s a cafe that’s also a theater and you can just spend the whole day there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> You’ve been stomping this ground for a little bit and I- honestly you need to pull a Ben Steinberg. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> I know. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Save your stump town mama, like I would sign that petition… I really would because you’re right which is that like I’m going to the Nordstrom E bar And then I’m going to Americana. Let’s combine forces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ezgi Eren:\u003c/strong> Let’s figure this out. Like let’s — Community Goods inside an AMC. Imagine the lines. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Candice Lim:\u003c/strong> Oh my God. \u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "cursed-all-tabs-portals-creepy-caves-jumpscares-and-haunted-objects",
"title": "Cursed All Tabs: Portals, Creepy Caves, Jumpscares and Haunted Objects",
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"content": "\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this special Halloween edition of Close All Tabs, we’re diving into creepypastas: horror stories that spread online until they become urban legends on their own. What happened to the girl who fell into a mirror in 2001? Did Ted the Caver ever come back to the surface? Was the Momo challenge real? And finally, we venture into eBay’s haunted doll marketplace … where we may have ended up with a spirit wreaking havoc on the production of this episode. It’s a ghoulish good time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@hallietut\">Hallie Tut\u003c/a>, visual effects artist, and digital content creator\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@chillingtalesfordarknights\">Craig Groshek\u003c/a>, horror author and founder of \u003cem>Chilling Tales for Dark Nights\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://tedthecaverfan.com\">Ted Hegemann\u003c/a>, author of “Ted the Caver”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Rena Lee, social media manager\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophia-bruno-846358286/\">Sophia Bruno\u003c/a>, educational nonprofit coordinator\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@paranormalteej\">Paranormal Teej\u003c/a>, haunted doll collector & paranormal investigator\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlaXgi-Jpdo\">How She Creates VFX Shots That Break Your Brain\u003c/a> — Hallie Tut, \u003cem>Youtube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://tedthecaverfan.com\">Ted the Caver\u003c/a> — Ted Hegemann\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Momo_(Creepypasta)#:~:text=%E2%80%9C-,Momo,-%2C%20Momo%2C%20Momo%20is\">Momo (Creepypasta)\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Villains Wiki\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://medium.com/@LanceUlanoff/momo-challenge-is-everything-thats-wrong-with-the-internet-4d1a5679c1ed\">Momo Challenge Is Everything That’s Wrong with the Internet\u003c/a> — Lance Ulanoff, \u003cem>Medium\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://yokai.com/ubume/?srsltid=AU7gw4UWwYuhjk8jv7LUe8ip4Sjmbw0bTmlbqoJ6kyNNEwWAjC7IZCV5\">Ubume\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Yokai.com\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/how-momo-global-social-media-hoax-about-paranormal-threat-kids-n977961\">How ‘Momo’, a global social media hoax about a paranormal threat to kids, morphed into a U.S. viral phenomenon\u003c/a> — Ben Collins and Shoshana Wodinsky, \u003cem>NBC News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.inverse.com/input/features/dybbuk-box-dibbuk-kevin-mannis-zak-bagans-haunted-hoax-revealed\">Finally, the truth behind the ‘haunted’ Dybbuk Box can be revealed\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Inverse\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/work/careers/a34322508/the-witches-of-ebay-industry-selling-haunted-item/\">The witches of eBay: Inside the industry selling haunted items online\u003c/a> — Daniella Scott, \u003cem>Cosmopolitan\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/62125/1/a24-youngest-ever-director-kane-parsons-the-backrooms-creepypasta-into-cinema\">The Backrooms: How Kane Parsons turned creepypasta into cinema\u003c/a> — Jack Mills, \u003cem>Dazed\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2026/05/what-is-backrooms-movie-original-explained-4chan-creepypasta-horror-internet.html\">The Eerie Backstory Behind Backrooms\u003c/a> — Nadira Goffe, \u003cem>Slate\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/revisiting-creepypasta-the-social-horror-craze-that-launched-slenderman/\">Revisiting Creepypasta, the Social Horror Craze That Launched Slenderman\u003c/a> — Zac Thompson, \u003cem>VICE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Happy spooky season tabbies. Is there a creepypasta you can’t stop thinking about? Or any internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity keeping you up at night? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate! Go to \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">KQED.org/podcasts/closealltabs\u003c/a> to submit your question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Just a note, this episode contains mentions of suicide and horror themes so listen with care — or skip this one and come back next week. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Let me tell you a story about one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I was in middle school, hanging out in a family friend’s basement with a bunch of other kids, when my friend’s older brother asked us if we wanted to see something. We crowded around his laptop where he pulled up a YouTube video, titled “Entry #1.” It was just a few seconds of shaky footage, shot through a window from inside a house, of a lanky, suited figure lurking near the door. No sound…which made it feel more unsettling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My friend’s brother told us that some guy online found all of these videos in his friend’s camera and started posting them to YouTube. He hit play on the next one. This had sound — some guy talking while he drove down a dark street. Not much is visible in this video…except the blurry silhouette of that same lanky figure, looming in the distance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Marble Hornets:\u003c/strong> I saw this really tall guy stand in the middle of the street, just completely still. For whatever reason, this really set off Rocky, and he got really scared. He wouldn’t move and he kept on pulling on his leash to go back home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back then, everything on the internet seemed real. My friends and I took all of it at face value. So we believed the YouTube comments that said they’d seen this figure too. My friend’s brother left, but the rest of us were totally hooked. So we hit play on another video. This was more shaky footage, again shot through a window from inside a house. The same figure was lurking, closer this time. The camera finally focused on an unnaturally pale, bald head. It had no face at all, just smooth white skin and hollow contours where eyes and a mouth and a nose should be. And then it turned to face the viewer, as if it was honing in on us. Then, my friend’s brother, from the top of the stairs, called out, “Who wants to meet Slenderman?” And shut off the basement lights. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The legend of Slenderman started in 2009, when someone posted black and white photos of children on a playground, seemingly oblivious to the spindly creature looming over them. The captions alluded to a string of child abductions from the 1980s. It was a submission for a Photoshop contest of paranormal happenings, which later inspired the YouTube series, Marble Hornets. That was the supposedly found footage that we watched in my friend’s basement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I totally fell for it. For a good year after, I was terrified to look through windows at night in case Slenderman was peering back in. That was my first experience with a creepypasta. The word “creepypasta” is a play on “copypasta” — which is a portmanteau of “copy-paste.” They’re blocks of text that become memes because they’re copied and reposted so often. Creepypastas are online urban legends, Horror stories that start on forums and comment sections that spread across the internet and take on lives of their own. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome to Cursed All Tabs. This is our very special Halloween episode, where, instead of one deep dive, we have a bunch of spooky stories for you. These are tales of the paranormal kept alive on the internet. A girl stuck in a portal, caving gone wrong, an entity that might get you through the screen, and the eBay listings for haunted dolls. So, gather around our digital campfire and if you’re easily scared, don’t listen in the dark. Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is Cursed All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung — tech journalist and your chronically online nightmare — here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s open our first tab and get into our first spooky story: “The girl in the mirror.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Picture this: It’s the middle of the night. You can’t sleep. You’re doom-scrolling. It’s way past your bedtime and you’ve been awake for a little too long. So, in the darkness of your room, shadows start to take on the shape of strange figures. You catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror, barely visible in the moonlight, and for a second, it seems like the room and the reflection is deeper. Like it goes on forever. And then…mid-scroll, you come across this video. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> There’s something really strange going on here, and if something ends up happening to me, I just hope that this video can maybe explain it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a video of a teenager recording herself on an old-school, hand-held camcorder. The caption says it’s found footage dating back to January 2001. The camera sweeps across her bedroom — a matching set of yellow furniture, frilly curtains, pink walls, very 90s — and settles on an antique mirror propped up on a chair. It faces another full-length mirror mounted to the wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Okay, so I have these two mirrors in my room. As you can see, they’re pretty normal looking mirrors, but I was cleaning and I had them kind of set up like this, and I noticed something really weird. Just watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The girl places the camcorder on the bed and films herself putting her hand on one of the mirrors, but she passes straight through the glass into another world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> See, when you look through the mirror into the other one, it becomes like a window. And there’s this huge warehouse, grocery store, or something down there. But wait, it gets even crazier. Watch this. Three, two, one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She fully jumps through the mirror and is transported into what looks like a fully stocked supermarket. But the aisles go on forever and there’s nobody else in sight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Woah. What the hell? What is this place? Hello? How far does it go? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She begins running, and then… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Oh shit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The camcorder zaps back to her room mid-air before bouncing onto her frilly white bed. It faces another mirror and in the reflection, the room looks empty. The girl is nowhere to be seen. You’re thoroughly creeped out so you start scouring the comments. Legend has it…she’s still missing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from ItsNickHoliday:\u003c/strong> A video a girl recorded in her bedroom in 2001, right before she went missing, has resurfaced and now is going viral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Generalist Authority:\u003c/strong> The camera was later found on her bed. She has not been located. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from brookesobasic:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if people know this or not, but facing two mirrors together is something you just shouldn’t do. And it’s said to open portals or bring in really bad energies or spirits — sometimes good — but usually bad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what happened to this girl who fell through a mirror over 20 years ago and was never heard from again? What is it about that abandoned, endless supermarket that feels both so familiar and so unsettling? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it — it just really is something where you don’t normally stay very long in a place like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Hallie Tutte, a VFX artist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Liminal spaces are kind of these transitional places where usually it would be somewhere that’s filled of people going from point A to point B when a place that usually is filled with people is now completely empty — that gives it that eerie feeling because you never usually are used to seeing it completely abandoned like that. So if you got trapped there, it just brings out this strange feeling in you, I think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Halle is the real girl in the video. And don’t worry, she did not get stuck in the portal despite what some internet conspiracy theorists might think. She’s always been fascinated by liminal horror — stories that take place in vacant, in-between spaces, like the internet lore that inspired the movie Backrooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I grew up in a town that didn’t have a lot of people in it, and there’d be like these old shopping malls where no one would be around and all the stores are gone. And I always just loved the feeling of being in those spaces, like empty food courts. Me and my friends would just like to kind of hang out there. And I guess when I got into 3D modeling, it was a really fun way to get to build that feeling again by creating those spaces. And it’s something that’s really easy to accomplish in 3D and make it feel very real, very quickly because it’s just a lot of walls and lights and rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that video wasn’t filmed in 2001, but actually made in 2023. Hallie was inspired by found footage movies like The Blair Witch Project. She wanted to create something that felt like it was from the early 2000s, but using modern equipment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I shot it completely by myself in my room and it was actually shot on a Sony camera on a tripod and then any of the handheld stuff is all fake. The mirror that she’s shooting into is fake and to create that infinite Walmart effect, I went to my local Walmart late at night when it feels like a liminal space and I was able to kind of scan all of the shelves and create these 3D models that I then brought into, like a software like Blender, and created this infinite world with it. And yeah, it’s shot in my real bedroom. I live with my grandparents, so this used to be my aunt’s room. And everything in it feels very of the time period that I was trying to make that video set in, so it worked out really well that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The video got a lot of views when she first posted it, but didn’t really go viral until a year later, when other influencers reposted it, speculating about what really happened to the girl in the mirror. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Even one of my art school teachers had sent me a link on Facebook to like a conspiracy channel where he’d seen it and asking if it was me. And that video had maybe 3 million views and thousands of comments, people’s discourse about whether it was real. Having remembered seeing this video from when they were younger, like in the early 2000s, people had made up like memories of it. Like kind of that Mandela effect was happening where people had — had this memory of knowing this story of this girl who went missing years prior to when I posted the video. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So it was — it was just going all over the place online and I kind of started to go down a rabbit hole of Reddit posts about it and different names they were making up for the girl in the video. Like in one spot her name was Violet and the video was titled “Violet’s Playtime” or something strange like that. And then people were kind of using that name to discuss it in different forums. So just gets it away from you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year, Hallie posted a video explaining that she was the creator of the video and that none of it was real. Even then, the conspiracies continued to spread. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> When I made the video talking about how it was fake and I explained how I had made it and how viral it had went around the internet, but trying to claim that, in fact, it was me in my room by myself and I’m here and I am alive — a lot of people in those comments were saying, “The government made her do this,” or “She’s AI and this is a cover up — like this is the CIA cover up for this girl who’s still missing. She’s just — this is just a plant. This girl trying to pretend she’s the girl so they can keep hiding this conspiracy from us.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s wild how drastically the internet has changed since 2023. AI videos back then were nowhere near as convincing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it would be a lot harder now with AI and even just the VFX work that was put into that. I don’t know if it would feel worth it anymore because of the way that people would just write it off. That video was definitely a labor of love for the technical challenges that I had to go through to make it look realistic and I think people now just won’t appreciate the craft that goes into something like that because they’ll just write it all off as AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, I don’t know if I’d ever do one quite in the same way. I think if I had a really good story that I wanted to tell, and it was more based on just a really horror story, I might try again. But in a way that was more of a fun technical challenge for me to make it convincing. And in today’s day and age. That’s no longer really a worthy challenge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s so depressing. Have we killed creepypastas with AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think creepypastes will live on, especially the more fictional stories that can’t be real things but that people really wish were real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hallie herself is still making creepy horror content, pushing herself with new technical challenges and VFX tools. But the story she put out into the world three years ago continues to spread and morph beyond what she ever created. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> It is essentially a creepypasta now, and the creepypasta might be well known by people, but it’s never going to really come back to me, which I kind of appreciate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If, during the witching hour, you place two mirrors facing each other, you might open a ghostly passage. Legend has it that, if you look long enough, the infinite reflections will dissolve into all sorts of in-between places — sprawling underground train stations, sterile hospital waiting rooms, school hallways lined with pristine lockers. They will almost always be eerily empty, as if time comes to a standstill there. And sometimes, you might catch a glimpse of a cavernous, eternal supermarket — and the pink-haired teenager doomed to wander its empty aisles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That story was brought to us by producer Maya Cueva. Unsettled yet? Well, we’re just getting started. The next internet scary story we have for you is actually the one that started it all. It’s known as the very first creepypasta, dating back to 2001. This tale comes from our very own senior editor, Chris Egusa. You might wanna turn on the lights for this one. Okay, let’s open a new tab. Who is Ted the Caver? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> In early 2001, a series of posts started appearing on an obscure Angelfire website, a site-building platform from the early internet. The page was bare bones. Basic HTML, a black background, and at the top, a salmon-colored title: “Welcome to the Page of Ted.” The posts were journal entries. The author? Anonymous, except for that first name: Ted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Over the course of a few months, Ted posted a detailed account of a series of caving trips he took with a friend he identified only as “B,” to explore a previously unentered passage in a spot they called “Mystery Cave.” According to the first entry, the pair had found a hole in the rock wall deep inside the cave. It was only four to five inches across, but they knew it had to lead somewhere because of a steady stream of air that blew through it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The first journal entry included a link to a grainy photo of the hole. It was uneven in shape, and the rock it went through looked several inches thick. There was a glove tucked inside the hole for scale. The entry went on. Peeking through the hole with a mini maglite, they could see a tight tunnel that opened up after a few feet. They could feel the air blowing past, and they could hear something else: a low rumbling that came and went. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ted and B brushed aside the strange details. They were too excited at the prospect of finding their way into a completely unexplored passage. So they made a plan: come back with hand tools and a cordless drill, break up the solid rock, and widen the hole until it was big enough to squeeze through. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ted named the passage Floyd’s Tomb, as a nod to Floyd Collins — an early 20th century cave explorer who got trapped and died as he attempted to enlarge a small tunnel in a cave system in Kentucky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Every few weeks through early 2001, a new post would appear on the website. They detailed the slow, grueling work of drilling and chiseling through rock until the batteries on their lights and tools ran out. Since the cave was a good distance from where they lived, Ted and B would stay at a nearby motel, recharge their batteries and bodies, and continue working the next day before heading home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Occasionally, Ted would mention some odd detail. Something unsettling. In one post, he described the wind as getting louder, a howl at that point. The rumbling had become more frequent, and he noted that it seemed to be emanating from deeper in the cave. Then he’d move on, refocusing on the task at hand. Each post linked more photos, documenting the progression of the hole. And as the entries went on, the details got stranger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On a trip in February, they brought B’s Jack Russell Terrier into the cave. Typically excitable and enthusiastic, she became edgy and began to whimper as she approached the hole. Her hair stood on end and she refused to get any closer. Later that same trip, B heard a scratching, grinding sound coming from inside the hole. When he got Ted’s attention to listen, it stopped. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On another trip in early March, Ted was kneeling at the wall, drilling — ear plugs in and safety glasses on. Over the noise of the drill, he heard a high-pitched sound. He pulled his earplug out just in time to hear an ear-piercing scream coming from inside the hole, echoing through the darkness. In his journal, he described it as a cross between a man screaming in fear and a cougar screaming in pain. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The next day, the two couldn’t stop thinking about the sound. But they rationalized it as some kind of animal and decided to continue on, focused on getting to the other side. They’d come too far to give up. In the next entry, Ted explained that they’d widened the hole enough to squeeze through. It was so tight that Ted had to turn his head to the side and wedge himself in with his arms pinned at his sides. As he went further, he could feel the rock pressing into his back. The only way forward was to exhale all of his breath and push with his feet. So that’s what he did. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Exhale. Scoot an inch or two. Breathe in shallowly. Exhale again. Scoot further. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The photo linked in that entry showed Ted wedged into the crevice wearing a black bandana, head cocked to the right. The flash lit up jagged rocks littering the floor beneath him. Then the passage began to open up. Ted was able to crawl forward, emerging for the first time into the untouched cavern. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The entries kept coming. And, without spoiling the rest of the story, things escalated from there. Ted found strange hieroglyphic markings on the cave wall, an unnaturally round rock that seemed to be moving on its own. A smell he described as damp, rotting, rancid, putrid, death, drifting up from deeper in the cave. Then, in the deepest section of the tunnel, he encountered something. Something that seemed to follow him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The last entry on the site was from Ted, writing the morning of his final trip into the cave. By then, he was badly shaken and suffering from lucid nightmares. He was determined to figure out what was going on, once and for all. And then, the entries stopped. Even years later, nothing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the Angelfire site stayed up, preserving Ted’s story. The collection of entries — nine in total, clocking in at over 25,000 words — is now known as Ted the Caver, and many consider it to be the very first creepypasta. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> At the time when I first read it, there was nothing like it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig Groshek is a horror author who runs Chilling Tales for Dark Nights, a company and YouTube channel devoted to creepypasta, along with several podcasts. He first came across Ted the Caver in high school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> You’re just surfing the internet and all of a sudden you come across this poor guy, you know, getting trapped with unspeakable horrors in the underground. And the story very much leaves you feeling that you don’t know what happened to him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> At the center of a lot of the online discussion was one question — was it real? The story had all these supernatural elements, but it also felt believable. The gear, the technical descriptions of caving, the photos. It read like a real caving journal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> Just when you thought there’s a chance that this was baloney, he threw up a photo. Critical thinking aside, that inclusion of photos drew you right back in, and it made everything that came after it even scarier. And of course we were experiencing this in real time. If you were there when it happened, this wasn’t a story you picked up years later. This was a man this was actually happening to, and you couldn’t do anything about it. It was like watching someone sleepwalk into traffic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But you couldn’t ask Ted. For years, no one could confirm who he was, or whether his name was even Ted. Authorship of the story was disputed, with several people taking credit. Eventually, the real Ted emerged and began posting intermittently on some online forums. In 2015, Craig decided to track him down in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> All I had to go on was the original post and some forums on the internet where he had appeared. And the way I found him was via reverse image search. He used the same picture, I believe he was standing on train tracks, maybe with his dog, and it was the same pictures of him on every forum that he used. I tracked him down to a disc golf course. I had the guy at the country club there, because they have a golf course and a disc golf and I had them hand Ted my information on a cocktail napkin. And the next thing you know, Ted’s calling me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig commissioned Ted to write an original horror story for an anthology he was putting together. It was only the second horror story Ted had ever written. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name is Ted Hegemann. I am the author of the story that is now known as “Ted the Caver.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> His story about the terrors lurking in Mystery Cave was his first. Ted is now 62 and lives in Utah. These days, he spends his free time playing disc golf. It’s the latest in a string of obsessions. 25 years ago, he was obsessed with caving. And, as it turns out, a lot of the story is based on real experiences. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> So, my buddy, Brad and I — who is B in the story — we went out to this cave that’s right on the border of Utah and Nevada. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Ted and Brad really did open up an entrance to a new passage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It took us numerous trips, I think eight trips before I was able to get past the opening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The squeeze through Floyd’s tomb? Ted says it happened just how he wrote it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was literally exhaling my lungs and scooting with my feet, with my arms down to my side to keep my shoulders down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Technically, he did the squeeze twice. By the second time, they had opened the passage up a little wider, and he was able to fit through with slightly more ease. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was keeping a journal the entire time — a caving journal — as well as updating friends and family, you know, as to the progress. It was kind of a neat thing. And when we were done, I thought rather than telling everyone about it, I’ll just upload my journal on a — find a website — and put it up. And then I had the idea that it’d be kind of fun to embellish a little bit. And so that’s where the story came from. So much of it is just directly out of my caving journal. And then the creepy parts were invented, of course. But the idea didn’t come until after we had gone into the cave. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> A lot of the eerie details were rooted in his actual experience, too. Like the air blowing through the hole. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We knew about the hole because we would stop there, because the wind blew out and you generally worked up a little bit of a sweat getting to that point in the cave. So we would stop and just let the cool air cool us off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And the low rumbling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We figured it was I-80 — just trucks or whatever — because it wasn’t constant. It was just every once in a while. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And they really brought a Jack Russell terrier into the cave. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Demon dog, oh my goodness, it nipped at me so many times. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But the part about it whimpering and refusing to go near the hole, that was embellished. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It was having a good time running around exploring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> I asked Ted at what point the story became complete fiction. I’m thinking of — there’s the terrifying scream that you both hear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> The scream. The grinding noise that we would hear inside, the smell when I went in there, and the round rock. There was no round rock, sadly. Oh, and the little hieroglyph thing that was in there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> It took Ted almost a year to write the whole thing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> And at one point, I gave up on it. I thought, “Oh, this is dumb. Who’s going to want to read this?” But then I sucked it up and thought, “Yeah, at least finish it. And then who cares? You know, if nothing happens.” But yeah, little did I know. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> He posted it, one update at a time, through the spring of 2001, and he knew the story had attracted a decent readership. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I did have a hidden counter on there and got up into the tens of thousands of views. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The story simmered underground, making its way through different communities, but never going viral the way things might today. And then, a few years after he posted the story, someone sent him a link to a caving forum where it was being discussed. After that, he started digging around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> That was one of the cooler weekends of my life. I remember our internet was really slow. So I went to the library and I just kept searching and found all these forums where they’re talking about it. And it just blew me away. How many people liked it. So many people said it scared them to death in very colorful ways. It was just so fun to know that that people were reading it and enjoying it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> For Ted, who’s not even a big horror fan, the fact that this story he posted 25 years ago keeps coming up is a lasting source of enjoyment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I just discovered this like last year. I started Googling and I found all of these YouTube channels where they talk about the story. They’ll read it and then give their thoughts about it. And I mean, one of them had three million views. It just kind of blew me away. I think it’s just a blast. I love it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> So is Ted the Caver the first creepypasta? As with most things on the internet, it’s hard to pinpoint. The term creepypasta itself came into use years later. And some people point to the genre’s similarities to chain emails from the 90s, which pre-date Ted’s story. But Craig Groshek says Ted the Caver certainly has a claim to the title. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> If you’re looking at the Mount Rushmore of creepypasta, of internet-based horror, Ted the Caver’s is definitely up there. In terms of storytelling — the immersion, the fact that you felt like this was a real person that may have actually disappeared, and for years that remained uncontested — you have to put it up there just for that. He was really a pioneer without realizing that’s what he was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> More widely known creepypastas like Slenderman and more recently Backrooms, which was turned into a Hollywood movie this year, all have their roots in Ted the Caver. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> I think you can trace it to a lot of these things, but Backrooms being the most recent example. I don’t know that you can say these things wouldn’t have existed without Ted, but you can’t say that they would either. This entire genre started with a couple of people copying and pasting creepy stuff to try to get a rise out of somebody. And Ted absolutely leaned into that at the end. He knew there were people that thought he was dead and he didn’t even care. Thanks, Ted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> When Ted Hegemann posted his story on Angelfire, he could have never anticipated where it would go. It was adapted into a movie in 2008 called Living Dark: The Story of Ted the Caver. And as for Mystery Cave? It’s been officially mapped out now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It’s called “Interstate Cave” and thankfully they did call that passage “Floyd’s Tomb” so it’s official on the map now. And DeWalt’s Dig, it was the opening, because we were using DeWalt tools. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig says that for all the ways storytelling has changed over the years with digital media, in some ways, it hasn’t changed at all. Instead of sitting around a physical campfire, we now sit around a digital one — on message boards, comment sections, and Discord chat rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> It started with one man telling his story around what is essentially a digital campfire. And as time has gone on, more and more people have gathered around that fire. And 20 plus years later people are still telling that story and that is a testament to how believable it was, how well written it was how immersive it was and how well it tapped into a primal fear that a lot of people have — whether it’s of the unknown, of the dark or not knowing what you can’t see. And that’s why I think it has stood the test of time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That was senior editor Chris Egusa. One thing about me: You will never catch me caving. Ever. The idea of squeezing into an underground passage where you can get stuck or lost or run out of air sounds hellish enough. And there might be an entity down there? No, thank you! Between whatever’s in the caves and Slenderman lurking in the woods, it seems safer to just stay inside. But the monsters from creepypastas can get you even if you never log off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">After the break, we have a story about the creature haunting your screens. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, when we’re back, what do you know about Momo? Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome back to the Close All Tabs special spooky story time. This next one is about an entity that I hate looking at, even as a full-grown adult. This creepypasta retelling comes from our very own intern, Lauren Yoon. Let’s open another new tab. The legend of Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> Picture a gaunt, paper-skinned woman with a protruding neck and bulging eyes. Her jet-black hair stringy to match a thousand-eye stare that could kill. She looks uncanny. The most important feature of the infamous viral image: she holds a smile that spans cheek-to-cheek in the shape of a “V.” Yep, that’s right. My internet urban legend is Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Fandom:\u003c/strong> Do you want a surprise? Look in their eyes. I won’t lie, you’re going to die. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> It’s 2019. Musical.ly had just become TikTok. Everyone was doing the woah, and Avengers: Endgame was in theaters. And Momo was threatening harm to all who came across her. I remember Momo being passed around between my friend group, joking she would haunt them while they slept or something. Here’s my friend, Sophia, talking about Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sophia Bruno:\u003c/strong> I was very much afraid of it in the sense that I just thought it was a weird-looking picture that my friend introduced me to because I think she was like, “Oh Momo’s gonna get you” and I was like, “What is Momo?” And then she showed me. And my friends and I would mostly joke about it like, “Momo is gonna get you whatever” but in terms of the real-life stories I mean I believed them and I believed — I feel like there was a mysterious lore around it like it would just kind of you and like attach itself to you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> In reality, I also hated Momo. If I was joking about it with friends, it was mostly because laughter is the best defense mechanism against fear. What scared me the most were stories of Momo contacting you over the phone and telling you to do horrible things to yourself or others. It became known in mainstream media as “the Momo challenge.” The idea was that kids would challenge each other to make contact with Momo, sparking her wrath. She was even rumored to have reached kids’ videos on YouTube, where her face would pop up out of nowhere during an episode of Peppa Pig. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The rumors caused a media frenzy, and Momo became a sensationalized, quote, danger to children. The Post, The Today Show, and a bunch of other news outlets around the world warned concerned parents about the internet legend. They encouraged parents to put restrictions on social media and YouTube for their kids — something parents should probably be doing anyway — without evidence that the Momo challenge was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Surprise! It wasn’t. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There has been no evidence to show that Momo or anyone posing as the character actually contacted people, let alone children. YouTube denied any claims of Momo popping up in the middle of their videos, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So where did Momo even come from? Well, she’s a picture of a sculpture called “Mother Bird,” created by Japanese artist Keisuke Aiso. If we zoom out of their original picture, you can clearly see the figure, propped up on a stand in an art gallery. The face we all know and…hate? Attached to a human chest with two huge bird legs. Keisuke based her off of this Japanese folklore called “Ubume,” a version of which translates to “child-snatching bird.” Makes sense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The image first spread on a Chinese social dating app called Momo, and that’s how the Momo we know today was born. So how did she spread so fast? And so far? I mean, a police station in Northern Ireland issued a statement and Kim Kardashian posted on Instagram, both figures warning parents about this dangerous, quote, challenge. My friend Rena has a theory that this all happened because the internet was a little newer to us at the time. AI wasn’t generating images like they are today, so we took a lot of things at face value. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Rena Lee:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t have this backpedaling of, “Is this AI, is this real?” A lot of information and media that we were fed at the time, it was easier to believe, “Oh my God, this looks so realistic. This has to be a real picture.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> I personally think it’s a combination of this naivete, plus the misinformation being spread by major national news outlets. The public sphere unfortunately feeds off of fear — talk about the horror of it all, right? — and Momo was the scapegoat for millennials and boomers concerned about what new dangers the internet proposed for their children. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Keisuke destroyed the original sculpture not too long after it was created because it started rotting. It was made of materials that weren’t meant to last long. The only part of the sculpture remaining is its eyeball. Here is an excerpt of Keisuke’s interview with The Sun from 2019. He’s speaking through a translator. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from The Sun:\u003c/strong> I got rid of Momo, so it is no longer here with me. I believe it no longer exists in this world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> He was pretty horrified by the way his art became so misunderstood and taken out of context. I wonder if people today would be as scared as they were five, six years ago when we weren’t burdened with the constant doubt that comes with the images we see online today. The landscape of internet paranoia has changed, and so I wonder if the Momo challenge could be recreated in this day and age. I even miss the mystery she brought to my life, something that has slowly dissipated as I trust the internet less and less. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Momo may have been a hoax, but her impact was real. The image of her bulging eyes and wide smile is still burned into the back of my skull. And when I’m trying to fall asleep at night, and I open my eyes to the dark corner of my room, she’s the figure I imagine standing there…waiting for my eyes to close again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to you by our intern, Lauren Yoon. We’ll have more on Momo in our further reading, but before you hit that link, consider this your jumpscare warning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Anyway, I have one more story for you. It starts with an eBay listing for an antique wine cabinet with strict warnings to never open it, lest you unleash misfortune upon anyone who comes in contact with the box. But the real horror story here is disappointingly mundane. Let’s open one last tab. The haunted doll scam market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One of the most infamous haunted objects was actually sold on eBay. In 2003, Kevin Mannis listed an antique wine cabinet with an unusually detailed description. He had picked it up at an estate sale, and the woman who sold it to him said it belonged to her grandmother, a Holocaust survivor. Her grandmother had been insistent that her family never, ever open the box. She said it contained a spirit called a dybbuk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Did Kevin heed the warning? No. He brought it back to his workshop and opened it right up — ignoring the creepy locks of hair and carved Hebrew prayers inside. A series of tragedies followed. His mother had a stroke when she opened the box. His siblings complained of terrifying nightmares. Someone who knocked the box off a shelf died by suicide the same day. Kevin himself started having visions of a demonic old woman with sunken eyes. He recounted the story in his eBay listing, which ended with, “Help me.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The box was bought and resold several times over the next decade. Owners complained of hair falling out in clumps, bleeding from the eyes, waking up choking, and dreams of the creepy old woman. The box finally found a permanent home in a museum for haunted objects, sealed behind layers of protective glass. It even inspired the 2012 movie, The Possession. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then, five years ago, Kevin admitted that it was all fake. He made up everything in the original listing. There are no dybbuk boxes in Jewish folklore. The malicious spirits attached to people, not objects. The people who bought the box after Kevin sold it maintained that their hauntings really happened. But as far as Kevin was concerned, the whole eBay thing was a creative writing exercise that spiraled out of control. But today, haunted objects are a hot commodity. And one object, in particular, has become incredibly popular in the secondhand haunted market: dolls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> EBay, Etsy, they’re all over the place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Taylor, a TikTok creator and YouTuber, also known as Paranormal Teej. She’s a paranormal investigator and haunted doll caretaker. She called me from a room packed with dolls. Can you describe the room you’re in? Like what’s around you? What are the stories behind all that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yes. So in this room, we have about 120 haunted dolls. They come from all around the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor keeps them lined up on shelves. Some are porcelain collector’s dolls, dressed in frilly skirts. Others are soft rag dolls, clearly pre-loved by some young child. And while we talked, I swear I could feel them gazing back at me through the screen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They keep me on my toes. I work with a lot of, like, trickster spirits. I am very interested in working with, like, spirits with kind of wacky, wild personalities. They are a riot. We adore them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She introduced me to a few of them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So first one I’m going to point out is Jeremiah. If I don’t point him out to you, he will mess with our recordings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jeremiah is this big soft bear, wearing a striped t-shirt. His plush legs dangle off the shelf, like a little kid’s would. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> He is a six and a half year old little boy. The half is very important to him. Six is not acceptable. He moves, he moves things, um, especially lollipops. That’s, like, kind of his gig. He loves green things. Um, everything he wants has to be green. So he has moved like lollie pops around our house, threw them down the stairs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed out another doll. She has a cherubic face and stark black pigtails, and she’s besties with Jeremiah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So Hoshiko is five. She’s from Japan. She’ll cause you to have, like, visions like in mirrors and things and she’ll like pop up. So I get the Samara from The Ring in the mirror trick every once in a while. Then she thinks it’s so funny because she likes, like, the reaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And lastly, Taylor points out Ciel. He’s in a black, pointed hat. Like a little witch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And he is very wise, very gifted. He has given me dreams about things happening a year before they happen and then they come true. And he’s just kind of, he’s my guy. So yeah, those are my, my buddies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> You may be skeptical of all this — but there were a couple of inexplicable incidents in the calls I had with Taylor. At some points, the entire video platform that we used flickered — not someone’s webcam, but the whole site. After the interview, our producer, Maya, said she heard low growling coming from Taylor’s side. When Taylor talked about her doll’s antics, I thought I heard faint giggling in the background. And there were chunks of our interview that our transcription software could not figure out. Instead, it spat out a jumble of German, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Brazilian, Portuguese, French, Danish, Korean, and a splash of Telugu. Was that Jeremiah messing with us? Although Maya and I were a little freaked out, Taylor seemed unfazed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Everybody asks, like, “How are you safe living in a house with 120 haunted dolls? How are, how were you safe?” And the honest answer is like, they, they respect me because I respect them. I’m just nice to them. Like that’s really all it takes is just like basic kindness. Um, and I think that makes the paranormal a lot less scary when you realize that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ghosts and the paranormal have been part of Taylor’s life for as long as she could remember. Her mother is a professional psychic. Her aunt is a paranormal investigator. Her grandmother would pull out the Ouija board whenever Taylor stayed over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> My whole dad’s side of the family, even the ones who don’t want to or want anything to do with the paranormal, see ghosts for whatever reason. And so I just, I kind of grew up in this environment where, like, ghosts aren’t scary. They’re just like a thing, you know, like it’s just a fact of life, kind of attitude about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor and her husband bonded over the paranormal and fell in love with doll collecting together. They consider themselves spirit keepers — almost like afterlife caretakers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Some spirits legitimately did own their vessel when they were alive. They were attached to it in life and they’re still attached to, you know, like we have spirits whose vessel was like their comfort item as a kid kind of thing. I do have cases where it was like a spirit who was haunting a location and like the location was getting torn down and they were scared because they didn’t know what would happen to them if the location disappeared. They didn’t know if they would disappear, too. So they kind of found a different way out of necessity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Actually confirming a haunting can take months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> A lot of spirits will be very quiet and you will have no activity and then six months in at random, they’ll just kind of like pop off and because they’re comfortable with you now. The paranormal field is not a science, right? We don’t have a textbook that says, “This is how you investigate an object. This is how you investigate a location.” And so for us, what our method looks like — because that evidence component is really important to me — I do not feel comfortable saying something is haunted unless I know 100%. If I am 99% sure, I won’t even say, “Yes.” I have to be 100% sure. The other thing about paranormal activity is it’s not predictable. There is zero predictability. You can’t say turn the lights off and they turn the lights off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to investigate whether a doll is haunted, Taylor first considers what she calls “subjective observations.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Anything from, I saw that doll move to — I saw a ghost in my house to — I heard footsteps or I got a dream from — about this doll, but for me subjective reports are not enough for me to confirm something is haunted because the brain does crazy things. When people are scared and they are around something that they’re suspecting, the brain can do really crazy things to, you know, trick us. You have things like pareidolia, which is, we see faces in things. And so, people can take that as paranormal, but it’s really just your brain playing tricks on you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So she tries to collect data: fluctuations in air temperature and air pressure, whether motion sensors are activated, and audio and video recordings. She looks for anomalies that she can document and compare against a control. And lastly, Taylor tries to make contact with whatever might be haunting the doll. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So everybody communicates with spirit slightly differently. For me, the way that works best for me personally is a spirit box. What a spirit box is, is essentially, it is an intentionally broken radio, okay? So basically it rapidly sweeps through radio stations and they can manipulate the radio signals to be able to communicate with you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She often posts spirit box sessions with her dolls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So that’s something you’re still trying to understand about 2026? The men awful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did you hear, “The men awful?” Or did you hear a jumble of static? Skeptics say the audio fragments that are picked up by spirit boxes are random and that it’s confirmation bias and pareidolia that leads investigators to find meaning in the sounds. Taylor, however, says it’s more reliable than other methods. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> There are other tools like Pendulum and Ouija Board, for example, and those things your hands are involved. And for me, like my hands being involved in something, it doesn’t feel like quite as valid of evidence to me. So I really like Spirit Box because my hands are not involved in that. I can’t control what comes out of that box. I have no involvement in that so I like the personal removal from it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the investigation is a bust. Taylor told me about this time her friends thought she bought a haunted doll. So she brought it over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Pulled out a spirit box and I’m like, “Hey, like if anybody’s there, like can we talk?” And I got nothing for a long time. You know, I’m like, “Maybe they’re shy.” So I keep asking questions. Nothing is happening. I’m like, “Okay.” Not even like a little bit — not even like a hesitation — nothing. And I’m looking at my friend and I am like, “We’re not getting anything.” And then the spirit box starts talking. And I am thinking, “Oh, maybe they finally decided to show up.” No. Um, it’s Omi, who’s down here in the blue, she’s hilarious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed to a doll behind her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And she comes on and she’s like, “There’s nothing there.” And I’m like, “It’s not haunted, is it?” And she’s, like, “No.” And I’m like, “Thanks!” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Here’s the tea: the paranormal makes for really good content. This was a very niche hobby until a few years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So, in my opinion, I think the COVID pandemic just shot haunted doll sales up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is around the same time “witchtok” took off — the corner of TikTok dedicated to modern witchcraft. Videos of spell jar recipes, algorithmically recommended tarot readings, and ghost hunting all overlapped with the same audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And I think that is largely due to the fact that people were home and they were bored out of their mind and they were looking for something to do. And I think a lot of people were also doom scrolling at that time. Everybody was sitting on TikTok and YouTube all day long watching videos and so people had haunted dolls or making more videos about their haunted dolls than usual because they’re at home all day with them and it was just a perfect storm for like a lot more people who like were not involved in the paranormal or anything to just kind of like decide to try something different. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The more sensational the paranormal content, the better it did online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And one of the party tricks that I see a lot is with EMF meters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These are handheld devices that detect and measure electromagnetic activity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They are not ghost metal detectors. Everybody just sees the EMF spike and they assume, “Oh, that’s a ghost,” but they don’t think about all of the other things that set off an EMF meter. Well, we’re in 2026. We have smartwatches that are setting off EMF meters, Wi-Fi, your cell phone — those things are set off by any form of electricity and all of our houses and all these locations are full of electricity, right? But a lot of people will, you know, share proof that their doll is haunted by essentially putting their phone right up to a doll that has an EMF meter on its lap and the EMF is going off and it’s hitting red and everybody’s forgetting that the phone that they’re filming that video on is what is triggering it. So when I see an account where the whole page is just EMF up to a cell phone and nothing else, I’m suspicious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> By becoming so trendy, Taylor says the paranormal community has become less about making contact with the other side and more about making content out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I think it’s social media and it’s not just haunted dolls, it’s the whole overall paranormal community. You know, the people that are into the paranormal will chase it to the end of the earth. I mean, some of these locations will charge you, you know, hundreds, thousands of dollars to go investigate there for the night. It’s extremely lucrative. Investigators are seeking evidence. They are interested, obviously. But there’s also, I think, the social media pressure. Content creators, especially, it’s like they, you know, want to — to get content out and they want to keep going so they have to go to more haunted locations and you know, have to have more experiences, because they’re sharing the experiences with the public and people are expecting to see it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And as this genre of content took off, the market for haunted objects suddenly became very lucrative. EBay, Etsy, and Facebook Marketplace technically do allow for sales of haunted or occult objects, as long as the listing includes a disclaimer that it’s for entertainment purposes only. But that disclaimer also means that you can get away with anything. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> People want to have a paranormal experience. People are interested in that now. It didn’t used to be. Everybody didn’t wanna have a paranormal experience before, but now it’s like, people are chasing an experience. So people have learned — there are people who will pay anything to get to have this happen. I think that people have caught on to that. It’s trendy right now, it’s in right now and everybody’s looking for a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so, people have learned like, okay, before I could go to like, buy one of those empty storage lockers and I could sell everything for $10 a piece, whatever, but if the haunted doll people pay 200 bucks for that, that’s what I’m going to charge. Um, and the fact of the matter is, when people buy it, people will sell it because there’s a demand for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like the dybbuk box that duped countless people 20 years ago, many of these listings have elaborate descriptions recounting tales of supernatural, otherworldly encounters. And dolls, especially, can go for way more than what they’re typically worth if they’re labeled “haunted.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I mean, I’ve seen in the thousands, multiple times. I always tell people the higher the price doesn’t mean that it’s more haunted than the ones that are a lower price. Like, a spirit is a spirit. There’s no such thing as like, this spirit is more spirity than this other spirit. My rule of thumb that I always tell people is like, “You can’t put a price on the paranormal,” right? Paranormal experiences are not guaranteed. Paranormal experiences are not scientific fact. So for me, ethically, I believe that the object should be priced similarly to the price that their vessel or their doll is worth. So if you have a doll that is like a collector’s item and worth $300 — yeah, list it for $300. If you have a doll that’s worth $50, list it for $50. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The dybbuk box eBay listing was such a novelty at the time. Now, haunted doll listings are a dime a dozen. On eBay today, I scrolled through listings for haunted dolls, haunted clip-on earrings, haunted keys, haunted cargo pants, haunted labubus and — not joking — a quote, haunted by curious dybbuk box. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I am not cut out for the haunted doll life, but if you were to buy one, how are you supposed to sift through all the haunted scams? Taylor actually makes haunted doll guides and recently started focusing more on creating seller checklists so her followers can vet listings for themselves. She’s wary of any seller that makes content of EMF readings. She’s also suspicious of large-scale listings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> You go on their page and they have a hundred Haunted Dolls listed and nearly all of them have the same story. I mean, spirits are — they’re people and every person is different. So how do you have a 100 spirits who all are the same person basically with a different name and like slightly changed details? So that’s a red flag. The other thing is if the facts don’t line up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So I have seen — this happens a lot. This is a big one. The story will say, “Oh, this doll is haunted by so-and-so and so-and-so owned this doll when they were alive and it was very meaningful to them, so they chose to keep it with them in the afterlife.” And you source the year on the vessel, and the vessel — the doll itself — was made in 1980. It says that the spirit is from the 1800s. That’s impossible. They couldn’t have owned the doll in the 1800s when the doll was made in the 1980s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok is full of complaints and warnings of haunted scams. This is especially frustrating to Taylor, who really sees spirit keeping as a lifelong commitment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Seeing people repeatedly getting things that are fake. One, obviously it’s a waste of money. I mean, obviously that’s irritating. Financial scamming is no joke and pisses me off. But it goes beyond that into, you know, those are people that could give an actual spirit a really nice place to live. And getting scammed over and over again chases them away from this hobby. I may be able to change, you know, the quality of afterlife for the spirits in my home. I can help a finite number of spirits, but I can help a lot more spirits if I can teach other people to do what I’m doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m still not sure what my relationship to the paranormal is. I want objective evidence. Data. A clear, unequivocal answer that explains why things are the way that they are. But throughout the interview, I kept catching glimpses of Jeremiah over Taylor’s shoulder with his fluffy teddy bear ears and little legs dangling over the edge of the shelf. And when Taylor talked about taking care of spirits in the afterlife, I swear, I saw him perk up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That’s it for Close All Tabs’ special spooky storytime. We’ll have a fresh deep dive for you next week, but if you’re dying to open more tabs about the tales we told today, check out the episode description for some suggested reading. Or stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. It was engineered by Brendan Willard and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production support by Cayla Mihalovich. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Special thanks to Hallie Tut, Ted Hegemann, Craig Groshek, Rena Lee, and Paranormal Teej for sharing their stories with us. This episode includes clips and archive tape from Hallie Tut, Eli Unique, Paranomal Teej, and Villains Wiki.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Apple Maker Hi-75 keyboard with Foggered in Red Samurai keycaps and Gator on Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So when it comes to buying and selling, they don’t really care about the concept of it. Their primary focus is always like, “Am I going somewhere where somebody is going to be nice to me or not?” That’s what they care about — is like, “Am I going to a good home?” But the one thing I know they don’t like is the shipping. They don’t like shipping. I hear complaints about shipping all the time. So. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, yeah, you can’t, you, can’t yeah, kind of out of your control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I’m like, “Sorry.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In this special Halloween edition of Close All Tabs, we’re diving into creepypastas: horror stories that spread online until they become urban legends on their own. What happened to the girl who fell into a mirror in 2001? Did Ted the Caver ever come back to the surface? Was the Momo challenge real? And finally, we venture into eBay’s haunted doll marketplace … where we may have ended up with a spirit wreaking havoc on the production of this episode. It’s a ghoulish good time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In this special Halloween edition of Close All Tabs, we’re diving into creepypastas: horror stories that spread online until they become urban legends on their own. What happened to the girl who fell into a mirror in 2001? Did Ted the Caver ever come back to the surface? Was the Momo challenge real? And finally, we venture into eBay’s haunted doll marketplace … where we may have ended up with a spirit wreaking havoc on the production of this episode. It’s a ghoulish good time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"Sophia Bruno, educational nonprofit coordinator",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@chillingtalesfordarknights\">Craig Groshek\u003c/a>, horror author and founder of \u003cem>Chilling Tales for Dark Nights\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"Ted the Caver — Ted Hegemann",
"Momo (Creepypasta) — Villains Wiki",
"Momo Challenge Is Everything That’s Wrong with the Internet — Lance Ulanoff, Medium",
"Ubume — Yokai.com",
"How ‘Momo’, a global social media hoax about a paranormal threat to kids, morphed into a U.S. viral phenomenon — Ben Collins and Shoshana Wodinsky, NBC News",
"Finally, the truth behind the ‘haunted’ Dybbuk Box can be revealed — Inverse",
"The witches of eBay: Inside the industry selling haunted items online — Daniella Scott, Cosmopolitan",
"The Backrooms: How Kane Parsons turned creepypasta into cinema — Jack Mills, Dazed",
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"Revisiting Creepypasta, the Social Horror Craze That Launched Slenderman — Zac Thompson, VICE"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Happy spooky season tabbies. Is there a creepypasta you can’t stop thinking about? Or any internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity keeping you up at night? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate! Go to \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">KQED.org/podcasts/closealltabs\u003c/a> to submit your question.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Happy spooky season tabbies. Is there a creepypasta you can’t stop thinking about? Or any internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity keeping you up at night? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate! Go to \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">KQED.org/podcasts/closealltabs\u003c/a> to submit your question.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just a note, this episode contains mentions of suicide and horror themes so listen with care — or skip this one and come back next week. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let me tell you a story about one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I was in middle school, hanging out in a family friend’s basement with a bunch of other kids, when my friend’s older brother asked us if we wanted to see something. We crowded around his laptop where he pulled up a YouTube video, titled “Entry #1.” It was just a few seconds of shaky footage, shot through a window from inside a house, of a lanky, suited figure lurking near the door. No sound…which made it feel more unsettling. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let me tell you a story about one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I was in middle school, hanging out in a family friend’s basement with a bunch of other kids, when my friend’s older brother asked us if we wanted to see something. We crowded around his laptop where he pulled up a YouTube video, titled “Entry #1.” It was just a few seconds of shaky footage, shot through a window from inside a house, of a lanky, suited figure lurking near the door. No sound…which made it feel more unsettling. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My friend’s brother told us that some guy online found all of these videos in his friend’s camera and started posting them to YouTube. He hit play on the next one. This had sound — some guy talking while he drove down a dark street. Not much is visible in this video…except the blurry silhouette of that same lanky figure, looming in the distance. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>My friend’s brother told us that some guy online found all of these videos in his friend’s camera and started posting them to YouTube. He hit play on the next one. This had sound — some guy talking while he drove down a dark street. Not much is visible in this video…except the blurry silhouette of that same lanky figure, looming in the distance. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Marble Hornets:\u003c/strong> I saw this really tall guy stand in the middle of the street, just completely still. For whatever reason, this really set off Rocky, and he got really scared. He wouldn’t move and he kept on pulling on his leash to go back home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Marble Hornets:\u003c/strong> I saw this really tall guy stand in the middle of the street, just completely still. For whatever reason, this really set off Rocky, and he got really scared. He wouldn’t move and he kept on pulling on his leash to go back home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back then, everything on the internet seemed real. My friends and I took all of it at face value. So we believed the YouTube comments that said they’d seen this figure too. My friend’s brother left, but the rest of us were totally hooked. So we hit play on another video. This was more shaky footage, again shot through a window from inside a house. The same figure was lurking, closer this time. The camera finally focused on an unnaturally pale, bald head. It had no face at all, just smooth white skin and hollow contours where eyes and a mouth and a nose should be. And then it turned to face the viewer, as if it was honing in on us. Then, my friend’s brother, from the top of the stairs, called out, “Who wants to meet Slenderman?” And shut off the basement lights. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back then, everything on the internet seemed real. My friends and I took all of it at face value. So we believed the YouTube comments that said they’d seen this figure too. My friend’s brother left, but the rest of us were totally hooked. So we hit play on another video. This was more shaky footage, again shot through a window from inside a house. The same figure was lurking, closer this time. The camera finally focused on an unnaturally pale, bald head. It had no face at all, just smooth white skin and hollow contours where eyes and a mouth and a nose should be. And then it turned to face the viewer, as if it was honing in on us. Then, my friend’s brother, from the top of the stairs, called out, “Who wants to meet Slenderman?” And shut off the basement lights. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The legend of Slenderman started in 2009, when someone posted black and white photos of children on a playground, seemingly oblivious to the spindly creature looming over them. The captions alluded to a string of child abductions from the 1980s. It was a submission for a Photoshop contest of paranormal happenings, which later inspired the YouTube series, Marble Hornets. That was the supposedly found footage that we watched in my friend’s basement. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The legend of Slenderman started in 2009, when someone posted black and white photos of children on a playground, seemingly oblivious to the spindly creature looming over them. The captions alluded to a string of child abductions from the 1980s. It was a submission for a Photoshop contest of paranormal happenings, which later inspired the YouTube series, Marble Hornets. That was the supposedly found footage that we watched in my friend’s basement. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I totally fell for it. For a good year after, I was terrified to look through windows at night in case Slenderman was peering back in. That was my first experience with a creepypasta. The word “creepypasta” is a play on “copypasta” — which is a portmanteau of “copy-paste.” They’re blocks of text that become memes because they’re copied and reposted so often. Creepypastas are online urban legends, Horror stories that start on forums and comment sections that spread across the internet and take on lives of their own. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I totally fell for it. For a good year after, I was terrified to look through windows at night in case Slenderman was peering back in. That was my first experience with a creepypasta. The word “creepypasta” is a play on “copypasta” — which is a portmanteau of “copy-paste.” They’re blocks of text that become memes because they’re copied and reposted so often. Creepypastas are online urban legends, Horror stories that start on forums and comment sections that spread across the internet and take on lives of their own. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome to Cursed All Tabs. This is our very special Halloween episode, where, instead of one deep dive, we have a bunch of spooky stories for you. These are tales of the paranormal kept alive on the internet. A girl stuck in a portal, caving gone wrong, an entity that might get you through the screen, and the eBay listings for haunted dolls. So, gather around our digital campfire and if you’re easily scared, don’t listen in the dark. Ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome to Cursed All Tabs. This is our very special Halloween episode, where, instead of one deep dive, we have a bunch of spooky stories for you. These are tales of the paranormal kept alive on the internet. A girl stuck in a portal, caving gone wrong, an entity that might get you through the screen, and the eBay listings for haunted dolls. So, gather around our digital campfire and if you’re easily scared, don’t listen in the dark. Ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Cursed All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung — tech journalist and your chronically online nightmare — here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s open our first tab and get into our first spooky story: “The girl in the mirror.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Cursed All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung — tech journalist and your chronically online nightmare — here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s open our first tab and get into our first spooky story: “The girl in the mirror.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Picture this: It’s the middle of the night. You can’t sleep. You’re doom-scrolling. It’s way past your bedtime and you’ve been awake for a little too long. So, in the darkness of your room, shadows start to take on the shape of strange figures. You catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror, barely visible in the moonlight, and for a second, it seems like the room and the reflection is deeper. Like it goes on forever. And then…mid-scroll, you come across this video. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Picture this: It’s the middle of the night. You can’t sleep. You’re doom-scrolling. It’s way past your bedtime and you’ve been awake for a little too long. So, in the darkness of your room, shadows start to take on the shape of strange figures. You catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror, barely visible in the moonlight, and for a second, it seems like the room and the reflection is deeper. Like it goes on forever. And then…mid-scroll, you come across this video. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> There’s something really strange going on here, and if something ends up happening to me, I just hope that this video can maybe explain it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> There’s something really strange going on here, and if something ends up happening to me, I just hope that this video can maybe explain it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a video of a teenager recording herself on an old-school, hand-held camcorder. The caption says it’s found footage dating back to January 2001. The camera sweeps across her bedroom — a matching set of yellow furniture, frilly curtains, pink walls, very 90s — and settles on an antique mirror propped up on a chair. It faces another full-length mirror mounted to the wall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a video of a teenager recording herself on an old-school, hand-held camcorder. The caption says it’s found footage dating back to January 2001. The camera sweeps across her bedroom — a matching set of yellow furniture, frilly curtains, pink walls, very 90s — and settles on an antique mirror propped up on a chair. It faces another full-length mirror mounted to the wall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Okay, so I have these two mirrors in my room. As you can see, they’re pretty normal looking mirrors, but I was cleaning and I had them kind of set up like this, and I noticed something really weird. Just watch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Okay, so I have these two mirrors in my room. As you can see, they’re pretty normal looking mirrors, but I was cleaning and I had them kind of set up like this, and I noticed something really weird. Just watch. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The girl places the camcorder on the bed and films herself putting her hand on one of the mirrors, but she passes straight through the glass into another world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The girl places the camcorder on the bed and films herself putting her hand on one of the mirrors, but she passes straight through the glass into another world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> See, when you look through the mirror into the other one, it becomes like a window. And there’s this huge warehouse, grocery store, or something down there. But wait, it gets even crazier. Watch this. Three, two, one. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> See, when you look through the mirror into the other one, it becomes like a window. And there’s this huge warehouse, grocery store, or something down there. But wait, it gets even crazier. Watch this. Three, two, one. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She fully jumps through the mirror and is transported into what looks like a fully stocked supermarket. But the aisles go on forever and there’s nobody else in sight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She fully jumps through the mirror and is transported into what looks like a fully stocked supermarket. But the aisles go on forever and there’s nobody else in sight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Woah. What the hell? What is this place? Hello? How far does it go? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Woah. What the hell? What is this place? Hello? How far does it go? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She begins running, and then… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She begins running, and then… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Oh shit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Oh shit. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The camcorder zaps back to her room mid-air before bouncing onto her frilly white bed. It faces another mirror and in the reflection, the room looks empty. The girl is nowhere to be seen. You’re thoroughly creeped out so you start scouring the comments. Legend has it…she’s still missing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The camcorder zaps back to her room mid-air before bouncing onto her frilly white bed. It faces another mirror and in the reflection, the room looks empty. The girl is nowhere to be seen. You’re thoroughly creeped out so you start scouring the comments. Legend has it…she’s still missing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from ItsNickHoliday:\u003c/strong> A video a girl recorded in her bedroom in 2001, right before she went missing, has resurfaced and now is going viral. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from ItsNickHoliday:\u003c/strong> A video a girl recorded in her bedroom in 2001, right before she went missing, has resurfaced and now is going viral. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Generalist Authority:\u003c/strong> The camera was later found on her bed. She has not been located. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Generalist Authority:\u003c/strong> The camera was later found on her bed. She has not been located. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from brookesobasic:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if people know this or not, but facing two mirrors together is something you just shouldn’t do. And it’s said to open portals or bring in really bad energies or spirits — sometimes good — but usually bad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from brookesobasic:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if people know this or not, but facing two mirrors together is something you just shouldn’t do. And it’s said to open portals or bring in really bad energies or spirits — sometimes good — but usually bad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what happened to this girl who fell through a mirror over 20 years ago and was never heard from again? What is it about that abandoned, endless supermarket that feels both so familiar and so unsettling? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what happened to this girl who fell through a mirror over 20 years ago and was never heard from again? What is it about that abandoned, endless supermarket that feels both so familiar and so unsettling? \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it — it just really is something where you don’t normally stay very long in a place like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it — it just really is something where you don’t normally stay very long in a place like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Hallie Tutte, a VFX artist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Hallie Tutte, a VFX artist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Liminal spaces are kind of these transitional places where usually it would be somewhere that’s filled of people going from point A to point B when a place that usually is filled with people is now completely empty — that gives it that eerie feeling because you never usually are used to seeing it completely abandoned like that. So if you got trapped there, it just brings out this strange feeling in you, I think. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Liminal spaces are kind of these transitional places where usually it would be somewhere that’s filled of people going from point A to point B when a place that usually is filled with people is now completely empty — that gives it that eerie feeling because you never usually are used to seeing it completely abandoned like that. So if you got trapped there, it just brings out this strange feeling in you, I think. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Halle is the real girl in the video. And don’t worry, she did not get stuck in the portal despite what some internet conspiracy theorists might think. She’s always been fascinated by liminal horror — stories that take place in vacant, in-between spaces, like the internet lore that inspired the movie Backrooms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Halle is the real girl in the video. And don’t worry, she did not get stuck in the portal despite what some internet conspiracy theorists might think. She’s always been fascinated by liminal horror — stories that take place in vacant, in-between spaces, like the internet lore that inspired the movie Backrooms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I grew up in a town that didn’t have a lot of people in it, and there’d be like these old shopping malls where no one would be around and all the stores are gone. And I always just loved the feeling of being in those spaces, like empty food courts. Me and my friends would just like to kind of hang out there. And I guess when I got into 3D modeling, it was a really fun way to get to build that feeling again by creating those spaces. And it’s something that’s really easy to accomplish in 3D and make it feel very real, very quickly because it’s just a lot of walls and lights and rooms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I grew up in a town that didn’t have a lot of people in it, and there’d be like these old shopping malls where no one would be around and all the stores are gone. And I always just loved the feeling of being in those spaces, like empty food courts. Me and my friends would just like to kind of hang out there. And I guess when I got into 3D modeling, it was a really fun way to get to build that feeling again by creating those spaces. And it’s something that’s really easy to accomplish in 3D and make it feel very real, very quickly because it’s just a lot of walls and lights and rooms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that video wasn’t filmed in 2001, but actually made in 2023. Hallie was inspired by found footage movies like The Blair Witch Project. She wanted to create something that felt like it was from the early 2000s, but using modern equipment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that video wasn’t filmed in 2001, but actually made in 2023. Hallie was inspired by found footage movies like The Blair Witch Project. She wanted to create something that felt like it was from the early 2000s, but using modern equipment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I shot it completely by myself in my room and it was actually shot on a Sony camera on a tripod and then any of the handheld stuff is all fake. The mirror that she’s shooting into is fake and to create that infinite Walmart effect, I went to my local Walmart late at night when it feels like a liminal space and I was able to kind of scan all of the shelves and create these 3D models that I then brought into, like a software like Blender, and created this infinite world with it. And yeah, it’s shot in my real bedroom. I live with my grandparents, so this used to be my aunt’s room. And everything in it feels very of the time period that I was trying to make that video set in, so it worked out really well that way. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I shot it completely by myself in my room and it was actually shot on a Sony camera on a tripod and then any of the handheld stuff is all fake. The mirror that she’s shooting into is fake and to create that infinite Walmart effect, I went to my local Walmart late at night when it feels like a liminal space and I was able to kind of scan all of the shelves and create these 3D models that I then brought into, like a software like Blender, and created this infinite world with it. And yeah, it’s shot in my real bedroom. I live with my grandparents, so this used to be my aunt’s room. And everything in it feels very of the time period that I was trying to make that video set in, so it worked out really well that way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The video got a lot of views when she first posted it, but didn’t really go viral until a year later, when other influencers reposted it, speculating about what really happened to the girl in the mirror. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The video got a lot of views when she first posted it, but didn’t really go viral until a year later, when other influencers reposted it, speculating about what really happened to the girl in the mirror. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Even one of my art school teachers had sent me a link on Facebook to like a conspiracy channel where he’d seen it and asking if it was me. And that video had maybe 3 million views and thousands of comments, people’s discourse about whether it was real. Having remembered seeing this video from when they were younger, like in the early 2000s, people had made up like memories of it. Like kind of that Mandela effect was happening where people had — had this memory of knowing this story of this girl who went missing years prior to when I posted the video. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Even one of my art school teachers had sent me a link on Facebook to like a conspiracy channel where he’d seen it and asking if it was me. And that video had maybe 3 million views and thousands of comments, people’s discourse about whether it was real. Having remembered seeing this video from when they were younger, like in the early 2000s, people had made up like memories of it. Like kind of that Mandela effect was happening where people had — had this memory of knowing this story of this girl who went missing years prior to when I posted the video. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it was — it was just going all over the place online and I kind of started to go down a rabbit hole of Reddit posts about it and different names they were making up for the girl in the video. Like in one spot her name was Violet and the video was titled “Violet’s Playtime” or something strange like that. And then people were kind of using that name to discuss it in different forums. So just gets it away from you. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So it was — it was just going all over the place online and I kind of started to go down a rabbit hole of Reddit posts about it and different names they were making up for the girl in the video. Like in one spot her name was Violet and the video was titled “Violet’s Playtime” or something strange like that. And then people were kind of using that name to discuss it in different forums. So just gets it away from you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year, Hallie posted a video explaining that she was the creator of the video and that none of it was real. Even then, the conspiracies continued to spread. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year, Hallie posted a video explaining that she was the creator of the video and that none of it was real. Even then, the conspiracies continued to spread. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> When I made the video talking about how it was fake and I explained how I had made it and how viral it had went around the internet, but trying to claim that, in fact, it was me in my room by myself and I’m here and I am alive — a lot of people in those comments were saying, “The government made her do this,” or “She’s AI and this is a cover up — like this is the CIA cover up for this girl who’s still missing. She’s just — this is just a plant. This girl trying to pretend she’s the girl so they can keep hiding this conspiracy from us.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> When I made the video talking about how it was fake and I explained how I had made it and how viral it had went around the internet, but trying to claim that, in fact, it was me in my room by myself and I’m here and I am alive — a lot of people in those comments were saying, “The government made her do this,” or “She’s AI and this is a cover up — like this is the CIA cover up for this girl who’s still missing. She’s just — this is just a plant. This girl trying to pretend she’s the girl so they can keep hiding this conspiracy from us.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s wild how drastically the internet has changed since 2023. AI videos back then were nowhere near as convincing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s wild how drastically the internet has changed since 2023. AI videos back then were nowhere near as convincing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it would be a lot harder now with AI and even just the VFX work that was put into that. I don’t know if it would feel worth it anymore because of the way that people would just write it off. That video was definitely a labor of love for the technical challenges that I had to go through to make it look realistic and I think people now just won’t appreciate the craft that goes into something like that because they’ll just write it all off as AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it would be a lot harder now with AI and even just the VFX work that was put into that. I don’t know if it would feel worth it anymore because of the way that people would just write it off. That video was definitely a labor of love for the technical challenges that I had to go through to make it look realistic and I think people now just won’t appreciate the craft that goes into something like that because they’ll just write it all off as AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, I don’t know if I’d ever do one quite in the same way. I think if I had a really good story that I wanted to tell, and it was more based on just a really horror story, I might try again. But in a way that was more of a fun technical challenge for me to make it convincing. And in today’s day and age. That’s no longer really a worthy challenge. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, I don’t know if I’d ever do one quite in the same way. I think if I had a really good story that I wanted to tell, and it was more based on just a really horror story, I might try again. But in a way that was more of a fun technical challenge for me to make it convincing. And in today’s day and age. That’s no longer really a worthy challenge. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s so depressing. Have we killed creepypastas with AI? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s so depressing. Have we killed creepypastas with AI? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think creepypastes will live on, especially the more fictional stories that can’t be real things but that people really wish were real. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think creepypastes will live on, especially the more fictional stories that can’t be real things but that people really wish were real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hallie herself is still making creepy horror content, pushing herself with new technical challenges and VFX tools. But the story she put out into the world three years ago continues to spread and morph beyond what she ever created. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hallie herself is still making creepy horror content, pushing herself with new technical challenges and VFX tools. But the story she put out into the world three years ago continues to spread and morph beyond what she ever created. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> It is essentially a creepypasta now, and the creepypasta might be well known by people, but it’s never going to really come back to me, which I kind of appreciate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> It is essentially a creepypasta now, and the creepypasta might be well known by people, but it’s never going to really come back to me, which I kind of appreciate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If, during the witching hour, you place two mirrors facing each other, you might open a ghostly passage. Legend has it that, if you look long enough, the infinite reflections will dissolve into all sorts of in-between places — sprawling underground train stations, sterile hospital waiting rooms, school hallways lined with pristine lockers. They will almost always be eerily empty, as if time comes to a standstill there. And sometimes, you might catch a glimpse of a cavernous, eternal supermarket — and the pink-haired teenager doomed to wander its empty aisles. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If, during the witching hour, you place two mirrors facing each other, you might open a ghostly passage. Legend has it that, if you look long enough, the infinite reflections will dissolve into all sorts of in-between places — sprawling underground train stations, sterile hospital waiting rooms, school hallways lined with pristine lockers. They will almost always be eerily empty, as if time comes to a standstill there. And sometimes, you might catch a glimpse of a cavernous, eternal supermarket — and the pink-haired teenager doomed to wander its empty aisles. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That story was brought to us by producer Maya Cueva. Unsettled yet? Well, we’re just getting started. The next internet scary story we have for you is actually the one that started it all. It’s known as the very first creepypasta, dating back to 2001. This tale comes from our very own senior editor, Chris Egusa. You might wanna turn on the lights for this one. Okay, let’s open a new tab. Who is Ted the Caver? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That story was brought to us by producer Maya Cueva. Unsettled yet? Well, we’re just getting started. The next internet scary story we have for you is actually the one that started it all. It’s known as the very first creepypasta, dating back to 2001. This tale comes from our very own senior editor, Chris Egusa. You might wanna turn on the lights for this one. Okay, let’s open a new tab. Who is Ted the Caver? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> In early 2001, a series of posts started appearing on an obscure Angelfire website, a site-building platform from the early internet. The page was bare bones. Basic HTML, a black background, and at the top, a salmon-colored title: “Welcome to the Page of Ted.” The posts were journal entries. The author? Anonymous, except for that first name: Ted. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> In early 2001, a series of posts started appearing on an obscure Angelfire website, a site-building platform from the early internet. The page was bare bones. Basic HTML, a black background, and at the top, a salmon-colored title: “Welcome to the Page of Ted.” The posts were journal entries. The author? Anonymous, except for that first name: Ted. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over the course of a few months, Ted posted a detailed account of a series of caving trips he took with a friend he identified only as “B,” to explore a previously unentered passage in a spot they called “Mystery Cave.” According to the first entry, the pair had found a hole in the rock wall deep inside the cave. It was only four to five inches across, but they knew it had to lead somewhere because of a steady stream of air that blew through it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Over the course of a few months, Ted posted a detailed account of a series of caving trips he took with a friend he identified only as “B,” to explore a previously unentered passage in a spot they called “Mystery Cave.” According to the first entry, the pair had found a hole in the rock wall deep inside the cave. It was only four to five inches across, but they knew it had to lead somewhere because of a steady stream of air that blew through it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The first journal entry included a link to a grainy photo of the hole. It was uneven in shape, and the rock it went through looked several inches thick. There was a glove tucked inside the hole for scale. The entry went on. Peeking through the hole with a mini maglite, they could see a tight tunnel that opened up after a few feet. They could feel the air blowing past, and they could hear something else: a low rumbling that came and went. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The first journal entry included a link to a grainy photo of the hole. It was uneven in shape, and the rock it went through looked several inches thick. There was a glove tucked inside the hole for scale. The entry went on. Peeking through the hole with a mini maglite, they could see a tight tunnel that opened up after a few feet. They could feel the air blowing past, and they could hear something else: a low rumbling that came and went. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ted and B brushed aside the strange details. They were too excited at the prospect of finding their way into a completely unexplored passage. So they made a plan: come back with hand tools and a cordless drill, break up the solid rock, and widen the hole until it was big enough to squeeze through. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ted and B brushed aside the strange details. They were too excited at the prospect of finding their way into a completely unexplored passage. So they made a plan: come back with hand tools and a cordless drill, break up the solid rock, and widen the hole until it was big enough to squeeze through. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ted named the passage Floyd’s Tomb, as a nod to Floyd Collins — an early 20th century cave explorer who got trapped and died as he attempted to enlarge a small tunnel in a cave system in Kentucky. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ted named the passage Floyd’s Tomb, as a nod to Floyd Collins — an early 20th century cave explorer who got trapped and died as he attempted to enlarge a small tunnel in a cave system in Kentucky. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Every few weeks through early 2001, a new post would appear on the website. They detailed the slow, grueling work of drilling and chiseling through rock until the batteries on their lights and tools ran out. Since the cave was a good distance from where they lived, Ted and B would stay at a nearby motel, recharge their batteries and bodies, and continue working the next day before heading home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Every few weeks through early 2001, a new post would appear on the website. They detailed the slow, grueling work of drilling and chiseling through rock until the batteries on their lights and tools ran out. Since the cave was a good distance from where they lived, Ted and B would stay at a nearby motel, recharge their batteries and bodies, and continue working the next day before heading home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Occasionally, Ted would mention some odd detail. Something unsettling. In one post, he described the wind as getting louder, a howl at that point. The rumbling had become more frequent, and he noted that it seemed to be emanating from deeper in the cave. Then he’d move on, refocusing on the task at hand. Each post linked more photos, documenting the progression of the hole. And as the entries went on, the details got stranger. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Occasionally, Ted would mention some odd detail. Something unsettling. In one post, he described the wind as getting louder, a howl at that point. The rumbling had become more frequent, and he noted that it seemed to be emanating from deeper in the cave. Then he’d move on, refocusing on the task at hand. Each post linked more photos, documenting the progression of the hole. And as the entries went on, the details got stranger. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On a trip in February, they brought B’s Jack Russell Terrier into the cave. Typically excitable and enthusiastic, she became edgy and began to whimper as she approached the hole. Her hair stood on end and she refused to get any closer. Later that same trip, B heard a scratching, grinding sound coming from inside the hole. When he got Ted’s attention to listen, it stopped. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On a trip in February, they brought B’s Jack Russell Terrier into the cave. Typically excitable and enthusiastic, she became edgy and began to whimper as she approached the hole. Her hair stood on end and she refused to get any closer. Later that same trip, B heard a scratching, grinding sound coming from inside the hole. When he got Ted’s attention to listen, it stopped. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On another trip in early March, Ted was kneeling at the wall, drilling — ear plugs in and safety glasses on. Over the noise of the drill, he heard a high-pitched sound. He pulled his earplug out just in time to hear an ear-piercing scream coming from inside the hole, echoing through the darkness. In his journal, he described it as a cross between a man screaming in fear and a cougar screaming in pain. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On another trip in early March, Ted was kneeling at the wall, drilling — ear plugs in and safety glasses on. Over the noise of the drill, he heard a high-pitched sound. He pulled his earplug out just in time to hear an ear-piercing scream coming from inside the hole, echoing through the darkness. In his journal, he described it as a cross between a man screaming in fear and a cougar screaming in pain. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The next day, the two couldn’t stop thinking about the sound. But they rationalized it as some kind of animal and decided to continue on, focused on getting to the other side. They’d come too far to give up. In the next entry, Ted explained that they’d widened the hole enough to squeeze through. It was so tight that Ted had to turn his head to the side and wedge himself in with his arms pinned at his sides. As he went further, he could feel the rock pressing into his back. The only way forward was to exhale all of his breath and push with his feet. So that’s what he did. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The next day, the two couldn’t stop thinking about the sound. But they rationalized it as some kind of animal and decided to continue on, focused on getting to the other side. They’d come too far to give up. In the next entry, Ted explained that they’d widened the hole enough to squeeze through. It was so tight that Ted had to turn his head to the side and wedge himself in with his arms pinned at his sides. As he went further, he could feel the rock pressing into his back. The only way forward was to exhale all of his breath and push with his feet. So that’s what he did. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Exhale. Scoot an inch or two. Breathe in shallowly. Exhale again. Scoot further. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Exhale. Scoot an inch or two. Breathe in shallowly. Exhale again. Scoot further. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The photo linked in that entry showed Ted wedged into the crevice wearing a black bandana, head cocked to the right. The flash lit up jagged rocks littering the floor beneath him. Then the passage began to open up. Ted was able to crawl forward, emerging for the first time into the untouched cavern. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The photo linked in that entry showed Ted wedged into the crevice wearing a black bandana, head cocked to the right. The flash lit up jagged rocks littering the floor beneath him. Then the passage began to open up. Ted was able to crawl forward, emerging for the first time into the untouched cavern. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The entries kept coming. And, without spoiling the rest of the story, things escalated from there. Ted found strange hieroglyphic markings on the cave wall, an unnaturally round rock that seemed to be moving on its own. A smell he described as damp, rotting, rancid, putrid, death, drifting up from deeper in the cave. Then, in the deepest section of the tunnel, he encountered something. Something that seemed to follow him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The entries kept coming. And, without spoiling the rest of the story, things escalated from there. Ted found strange hieroglyphic markings on the cave wall, an unnaturally round rock that seemed to be moving on its own. A smell he described as damp, rotting, rancid, putrid, death, drifting up from deeper in the cave. Then, in the deepest section of the tunnel, he encountered something. Something that seemed to follow him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The last entry on the site was from Ted, writing the morning of his final trip into the cave. By then, he was badly shaken and suffering from lucid nightmares. He was determined to figure out what was going on, once and for all. And then, the entries stopped. Even years later, nothing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The last entry on the site was from Ted, writing the morning of his final trip into the cave. By then, he was badly shaken and suffering from lucid nightmares. He was determined to figure out what was going on, once and for all. And then, the entries stopped. Even years later, nothing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the Angelfire site stayed up, preserving Ted’s story. The collection of entries — nine in total, clocking in at over 25,000 words — is now known as Ted the Caver, and many consider it to be the very first creepypasta. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the Angelfire site stayed up, preserving Ted’s story. The collection of entries — nine in total, clocking in at over 25,000 words — is now known as Ted the Caver, and many consider it to be the very first creepypasta. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> At the time when I first read it, there was nothing like it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> At the time when I first read it, there was nothing like it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig Groshek is a horror author who runs Chilling Tales for Dark Nights, a company and YouTube channel devoted to creepypasta, along with several podcasts. He first came across Ted the Caver in high school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig Groshek is a horror author who runs Chilling Tales for Dark Nights, a company and YouTube channel devoted to creepypasta, along with several podcasts. He first came across Ted the Caver in high school. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> You’re just surfing the internet and all of a sudden you come across this poor guy, you know, getting trapped with unspeakable horrors in the underground. And the story very much leaves you feeling that you don’t know what happened to him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> You’re just surfing the internet and all of a sudden you come across this poor guy, you know, getting trapped with unspeakable horrors in the underground. And the story very much leaves you feeling that you don’t know what happened to him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> At the center of a lot of the online discussion was one question — was it real? The story had all these supernatural elements, but it also felt believable. The gear, the technical descriptions of caving, the photos. It read like a real caving journal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> At the center of a lot of the online discussion was one question — was it real? The story had all these supernatural elements, but it also felt believable. The gear, the technical descriptions of caving, the photos. It read like a real caving journal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> Just when you thought there’s a chance that this was baloney, he threw up a photo. Critical thinking aside, that inclusion of photos drew you right back in, and it made everything that came after it even scarier. And of course we were experiencing this in real time. If you were there when it happened, this wasn’t a story you picked up years later. This was a man this was actually happening to, and you couldn’t do anything about it. It was like watching someone sleepwalk into traffic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> Just when you thought there’s a chance that this was baloney, he threw up a photo. Critical thinking aside, that inclusion of photos drew you right back in, and it made everything that came after it even scarier. And of course we were experiencing this in real time. If you were there when it happened, this wasn’t a story you picked up years later. This was a man this was actually happening to, and you couldn’t do anything about it. It was like watching someone sleepwalk into traffic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But you couldn’t ask Ted. For years, no one could confirm who he was, or whether his name was even Ted. Authorship of the story was disputed, with several people taking credit. Eventually, the real Ted emerged and began posting intermittently on some online forums. In 2015, Craig decided to track him down in person. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But you couldn’t ask Ted. For years, no one could confirm who he was, or whether his name was even Ted. Authorship of the story was disputed, with several people taking credit. Eventually, the real Ted emerged and began posting intermittently on some online forums. In 2015, Craig decided to track him down in person. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> All I had to go on was the original post and some forums on the internet where he had appeared. And the way I found him was via reverse image search. He used the same picture, I believe he was standing on train tracks, maybe with his dog, and it was the same pictures of him on every forum that he used. I tracked him down to a disc golf course. I had the guy at the country club there, because they have a golf course and a disc golf and I had them hand Ted my information on a cocktail napkin. And the next thing you know, Ted’s calling me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> All I had to go on was the original post and some forums on the internet where he had appeared. And the way I found him was via reverse image search. He used the same picture, I believe he was standing on train tracks, maybe with his dog, and it was the same pictures of him on every forum that he used. I tracked him down to a disc golf course. I had the guy at the country club there, because they have a golf course and a disc golf and I had them hand Ted my information on a cocktail napkin. And the next thing you know, Ted’s calling me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig commissioned Ted to write an original horror story for an anthology he was putting together. It was only the second horror story Ted had ever written. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig commissioned Ted to write an original horror story for an anthology he was putting together. It was only the second horror story Ted had ever written. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name is Ted Hegemann. I am the author of the story that is now known as “Ted the Caver.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name is Ted Hegemann. I am the author of the story that is now known as “Ted the Caver.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> His story about the terrors lurking in Mystery Cave was his first. Ted is now 62 and lives in Utah. These days, he spends his free time playing disc golf. It’s the latest in a string of obsessions. 25 years ago, he was obsessed with caving. And, as it turns out, a lot of the story is based on real experiences. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> His story about the terrors lurking in Mystery Cave was his first. Ted is now 62 and lives in Utah. These days, he spends his free time playing disc golf. It’s the latest in a string of obsessions. 25 years ago, he was obsessed with caving. And, as it turns out, a lot of the story is based on real experiences. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> So, my buddy, Brad and I — who is B in the story — we went out to this cave that’s right on the border of Utah and Nevada. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> So, my buddy, Brad and I — who is B in the story — we went out to this cave that’s right on the border of Utah and Nevada. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Ted and Brad really did open up an entrance to a new passage. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Ted and Brad really did open up an entrance to a new passage. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It took us numerous trips, I think eight trips before I was able to get past the opening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It took us numerous trips, I think eight trips before I was able to get past the opening. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The squeeze through Floyd’s tomb? Ted says it happened just how he wrote it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The squeeze through Floyd’s tomb? Ted says it happened just how he wrote it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was literally exhaling my lungs and scooting with my feet, with my arms down to my side to keep my shoulders down. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was literally exhaling my lungs and scooting with my feet, with my arms down to my side to keep my shoulders down. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Technically, he did the squeeze twice. By the second time, they had opened the passage up a little wider, and he was able to fit through with slightly more ease. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was keeping a journal the entire time — a caving journal — as well as updating friends and family, you know, as to the progress. It was kind of a neat thing. And when we were done, I thought rather than telling everyone about it, I’ll just upload my journal on a — find a website — and put it up. And then I had the idea that it’d be kind of fun to embellish a little bit. And so that’s where the story came from. So much of it is just directly out of my caving journal. And then the creepy parts were invented, of course. But the idea didn’t come until after we had gone into the cave. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was keeping a journal the entire time — a caving journal — as well as updating friends and family, you know, as to the progress. It was kind of a neat thing. And when we were done, I thought rather than telling everyone about it, I’ll just upload my journal on a — find a website — and put it up. And then I had the idea that it’d be kind of fun to embellish a little bit. And so that’s where the story came from. So much of it is just directly out of my caving journal. And then the creepy parts were invented, of course. But the idea didn’t come until after we had gone into the cave. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We knew about the hole because we would stop there, because the wind blew out and you generally worked up a little bit of a sweat getting to that point in the cave. So we would stop and just let the cool air cool us off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We knew about the hole because we would stop there, because the wind blew out and you generally worked up a little bit of a sweat getting to that point in the cave. So we would stop and just let the cool air cool us off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We figured it was I-80 — just trucks or whatever — because it wasn’t constant. It was just every once in a while. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We figured it was I-80 — just trucks or whatever — because it wasn’t constant. It was just every once in a while. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And they really brought a Jack Russell terrier into the cave. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And they really brought a Jack Russell terrier into the cave. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Demon dog, oh my goodness, it nipped at me so many times. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Demon dog, oh my goodness, it nipped at me so many times. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But the part about it whimpering and refusing to go near the hole, that was embellished. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But the part about it whimpering and refusing to go near the hole, that was embellished. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It was having a good time running around exploring. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It was having a good time running around exploring. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> I asked Ted at what point the story became complete fiction. I’m thinking of — there’s the terrifying scream that you both hear. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> I asked Ted at what point the story became complete fiction. I’m thinking of — there’s the terrifying scream that you both hear. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> The scream. The grinding noise that we would hear inside, the smell when I went in there, and the round rock. There was no round rock, sadly. Oh, and the little hieroglyph thing that was in there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> The scream. The grinding noise that we would hear inside, the smell when I went in there, and the round rock. There was no round rock, sadly. Oh, and the little hieroglyph thing that was in there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> It took Ted almost a year to write the whole thing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> And at one point, I gave up on it. I thought, “Oh, this is dumb. Who’s going to want to read this?” But then I sucked it up and thought, “Yeah, at least finish it. And then who cares? You know, if nothing happens.” But yeah, little did I know. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> And at one point, I gave up on it. I thought, “Oh, this is dumb. Who’s going to want to read this?” But then I sucked it up and thought, “Yeah, at least finish it. And then who cares? You know, if nothing happens.” But yeah, little did I know. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> He posted it, one update at a time, through the spring of 2001, and he knew the story had attracted a decent readership. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> He posted it, one update at a time, through the spring of 2001, and he knew the story had attracted a decent readership. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I did have a hidden counter on there and got up into the tens of thousands of views. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I did have a hidden counter on there and got up into the tens of thousands of views. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The story simmered underground, making its way through different communities, but never going viral the way things might today. And then, a few years after he posted the story, someone sent him a link to a caving forum where it was being discussed. After that, he started digging around. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The story simmered underground, making its way through different communities, but never going viral the way things might today. And then, a few years after he posted the story, someone sent him a link to a caving forum where it was being discussed. After that, he started digging around. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> That was one of the cooler weekends of my life. I remember our internet was really slow. So I went to the library and I just kept searching and found all these forums where they’re talking about it. And it just blew me away. How many people liked it. So many people said it scared them to death in very colorful ways. It was just so fun to know that that people were reading it and enjoying it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> That was one of the cooler weekends of my life. I remember our internet was really slow. So I went to the library and I just kept searching and found all these forums where they’re talking about it. And it just blew me away. How many people liked it. So many people said it scared them to death in very colorful ways. It was just so fun to know that that people were reading it and enjoying it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> For Ted, who’s not even a big horror fan, the fact that this story he posted 25 years ago keeps coming up is a lasting source of enjoyment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> For Ted, who’s not even a big horror fan, the fact that this story he posted 25 years ago keeps coming up is a lasting source of enjoyment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I just discovered this like last year. I started Googling and I found all of these YouTube channels where they talk about the story. They’ll read it and then give their thoughts about it. And I mean, one of them had three million views. It just kind of blew me away. I think it’s just a blast. I love it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I just discovered this like last year. I started Googling and I found all of these YouTube channels where they talk about the story. They’ll read it and then give their thoughts about it. And I mean, one of them had three million views. It just kind of blew me away. I think it’s just a blast. I love it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> So is Ted the Caver the first creepypasta? As with most things on the internet, it’s hard to pinpoint. The term creepypasta itself came into use years later. And some people point to the genre’s similarities to chain emails from the 90s, which pre-date Ted’s story. But Craig Groshek says Ted the Caver certainly has a claim to the title. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> So is Ted the Caver the first creepypasta? As with most things on the internet, it’s hard to pinpoint. The term creepypasta itself came into use years later. And some people point to the genre’s similarities to chain emails from the 90s, which pre-date Ted’s story. But Craig Groshek says Ted the Caver certainly has a claim to the title. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> If you’re looking at the Mount Rushmore of creepypasta, of internet-based horror, Ted the Caver’s is definitely up there. In terms of storytelling — the immersion, the fact that you felt like this was a real person that may have actually disappeared, and for years that remained uncontested — you have to put it up there just for that. He was really a pioneer without realizing that’s what he was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> If you’re looking at the Mount Rushmore of creepypasta, of internet-based horror, Ted the Caver’s is definitely up there. In terms of storytelling — the immersion, the fact that you felt like this was a real person that may have actually disappeared, and for years that remained uncontested — you have to put it up there just for that. He was really a pioneer without realizing that’s what he was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> More widely known creepypastas like Slenderman and more recently Backrooms, which was turned into a Hollywood movie this year, all have their roots in Ted the Caver. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> More widely known creepypastas like Slenderman and more recently Backrooms, which was turned into a Hollywood movie this year, all have their roots in Ted the Caver. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> I think you can trace it to a lot of these things, but Backrooms being the most recent example. I don’t know that you can say these things wouldn’t have existed without Ted, but you can’t say that they would either. This entire genre started with a couple of people copying and pasting creepy stuff to try to get a rise out of somebody. And Ted absolutely leaned into that at the end. He knew there were people that thought he was dead and he didn’t even care. Thanks, Ted. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> I think you can trace it to a lot of these things, but Backrooms being the most recent example. I don’t know that you can say these things wouldn’t have existed without Ted, but you can’t say that they would either. This entire genre started with a couple of people copying and pasting creepy stuff to try to get a rise out of somebody. And Ted absolutely leaned into that at the end. He knew there were people that thought he was dead and he didn’t even care. Thanks, Ted. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> When Ted Hegemann posted his story on Angelfire, he could have never anticipated where it would go. It was adapted into a movie in 2008 called Living Dark: The Story of Ted the Caver. And as for Mystery Cave? It’s been officially mapped out now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> When Ted Hegemann posted his story on Angelfire, he could have never anticipated where it would go. It was adapted into a movie in 2008 called Living Dark: The Story of Ted the Caver. And as for Mystery Cave? It’s been officially mapped out now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It’s called “Interstate Cave” and thankfully they did call that passage “Floyd’s Tomb” so it’s official on the map now. And DeWalt’s Dig, it was the opening, because we were using DeWalt tools. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It’s called “Interstate Cave” and thankfully they did call that passage “Floyd’s Tomb” so it’s official on the map now. And DeWalt’s Dig, it was the opening, because we were using DeWalt tools. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig says that for all the ways storytelling has changed over the years with digital media, in some ways, it hasn’t changed at all. Instead of sitting around a physical campfire, we now sit around a digital one — on message boards, comment sections, and Discord chat rooms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig says that for all the ways storytelling has changed over the years with digital media, in some ways, it hasn’t changed at all. Instead of sitting around a physical campfire, we now sit around a digital one — on message boards, comment sections, and Discord chat rooms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> It started with one man telling his story around what is essentially a digital campfire. And as time has gone on, more and more people have gathered around that fire. And 20 plus years later people are still telling that story and that is a testament to how believable it was, how well written it was how immersive it was and how well it tapped into a primal fear that a lot of people have — whether it’s of the unknown, of the dark or not knowing what you can’t see. And that’s why I think it has stood the test of time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> It started with one man telling his story around what is essentially a digital campfire. And as time has gone on, more and more people have gathered around that fire. And 20 plus years later people are still telling that story and that is a testament to how believable it was, how well written it was how immersive it was and how well it tapped into a primal fear that a lot of people have — whether it’s of the unknown, of the dark or not knowing what you can’t see. And that’s why I think it has stood the test of time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That was senior editor Chris Egusa. One thing about me: You will never catch me caving. Ever. The idea of squeezing into an underground passage where you can get stuck or lost or run out of air sounds hellish enough. And there might be an entity down there? No, thank you! Between whatever’s in the caves and Slenderman lurking in the woods, it seems safer to just stay inside. But the monsters from creepypastas can get you even if you never log off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That was senior editor Chris Egusa. One thing about me: You will never catch me caving. Ever. The idea of squeezing into an underground passage where you can get stuck or lost or run out of air sounds hellish enough. And there might be an entity down there? No, thank you! Between whatever’s in the caves and Slenderman lurking in the woods, it seems safer to just stay inside. But the monsters from creepypastas can get you even if you never log off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After the break, we have a story about the creature haunting your screens. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, when we’re back, what do you know about Momo? Stick around. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>After the break, we have a story about the creature haunting your screens. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, when we’re back, what do you know about Momo? Stick around. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back to the Close All Tabs special spooky story time. This next one is about an entity that I hate looking at, even as a full-grown adult. This creepypasta retelling comes from our very own intern, Lauren Yoon. Let’s open another new tab. The legend of Momo. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome back to the Close All Tabs special spooky story time. This next one is about an entity that I hate looking at, even as a full-grown adult. This creepypasta retelling comes from our very own intern, Lauren Yoon. Let’s open another new tab. The legend of Momo. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> Picture a gaunt, paper-skinned woman with a protruding neck and bulging eyes. Her jet-black hair stringy to match a thousand-eye stare that could kill. She looks uncanny. The most important feature of the infamous viral image: she holds a smile that spans cheek-to-cheek in the shape of a “V.” Yep, that’s right. My internet urban legend is Momo. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> Picture a gaunt, paper-skinned woman with a protruding neck and bulging eyes. Her jet-black hair stringy to match a thousand-eye stare that could kill. She looks uncanny. The most important feature of the infamous viral image: she holds a smile that spans cheek-to-cheek in the shape of a “V.” Yep, that’s right. My internet urban legend is Momo. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Fandom:\u003c/strong> Do you want a surprise? Look in their eyes. I won’t lie, you’re going to die. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Fandom:\u003c/strong> Do you want a surprise? Look in their eyes. I won’t lie, you’re going to die. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> It’s 2019. Musical.ly had just become TikTok. Everyone was doing the woah, and Avengers: Endgame was in theaters. And Momo was threatening harm to all who came across her. I remember Momo being passed around between my friend group, joking she would haunt them while they slept or something. Here’s my friend, Sophia, talking about Momo. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> It’s 2019. Musical.ly had just become TikTok. Everyone was doing the woah, and Avengers: Endgame was in theaters. And Momo was threatening harm to all who came across her. I remember Momo being passed around between my friend group, joking she would haunt them while they slept or something. Here’s my friend, Sophia, talking about Momo. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sophia Bruno:\u003c/strong> I was very much afraid of it in the sense that I just thought it was a weird-looking picture that my friend introduced me to because I think she was like, “Oh Momo’s gonna get you” and I was like, “What is Momo?” And then she showed me. And my friends and I would mostly joke about it like, “Momo is gonna get you whatever” but in terms of the real-life stories I mean I believed them and I believed — I feel like there was a mysterious lore around it like it would just kind of you and like attach itself to you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sophia Bruno:\u003c/strong> I was very much afraid of it in the sense that I just thought it was a weird-looking picture that my friend introduced me to because I think she was like, “Oh Momo’s gonna get you” and I was like, “What is Momo?” And then she showed me. And my friends and I would mostly joke about it like, “Momo is gonna get you whatever” but in terms of the real-life stories I mean I believed them and I believed — I feel like there was a mysterious lore around it like it would just kind of you and like attach itself to you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> In reality, I also hated Momo. If I was joking about it with friends, it was mostly because laughter is the best defense mechanism against fear. What scared me the most were stories of Momo contacting you over the phone and telling you to do horrible things to yourself or others. It became known in mainstream media as “the Momo challenge.” The idea was that kids would challenge each other to make contact with Momo, sparking her wrath. She was even rumored to have reached kids’ videos on YouTube, where her face would pop up out of nowhere during an episode of Peppa Pig. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> In reality, I also hated Momo. If I was joking about it with friends, it was mostly because laughter is the best defense mechanism against fear. What scared me the most were stories of Momo contacting you over the phone and telling you to do horrible things to yourself or others. It became known in mainstream media as “the Momo challenge.” The idea was that kids would challenge each other to make contact with Momo, sparking her wrath. She was even rumored to have reached kids’ videos on YouTube, where her face would pop up out of nowhere during an episode of Peppa Pig. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rumors caused a media frenzy, and Momo became a sensationalized, quote, danger to children. The Post, The Today Show, and a bunch of other news outlets around the world warned concerned parents about the internet legend. They encouraged parents to put restrictions on social media and YouTube for their kids — something parents should probably be doing anyway — without evidence that the Momo challenge was real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The rumors caused a media frenzy, and Momo became a sensationalized, quote, danger to children. The Post, The Today Show, and a bunch of other news outlets around the world warned concerned parents about the internet legend. They encouraged parents to put restrictions on social media and YouTube for their kids — something parents should probably be doing anyway — without evidence that the Momo challenge was real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Surprise! It wasn’t. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Surprise! It wasn’t. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There has been no evidence to show that Momo or anyone posing as the character actually contacted people, let alone children. YouTube denied any claims of Momo popping up in the middle of their videos, too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There has been no evidence to show that Momo or anyone posing as the character actually contacted people, let alone children. YouTube denied any claims of Momo popping up in the middle of their videos, too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So where did Momo even come from? Well, she’s a picture of a sculpture called “Mother Bird,” created by Japanese artist Keisuke Aiso. If we zoom out of their original picture, you can clearly see the figure, propped up on a stand in an art gallery. The face we all know and…hate? Attached to a human chest with two huge bird legs. Keisuke based her off of this Japanese folklore called “Ubume,” a version of which translates to “child-snatching bird.” Makes sense. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So where did Momo even come from? Well, she’s a picture of a sculpture called “Mother Bird,” created by Japanese artist Keisuke Aiso. If we zoom out of their original picture, you can clearly see the figure, propped up on a stand in an art gallery. The face we all know and…hate? Attached to a human chest with two huge bird legs. Keisuke based her off of this Japanese folklore called “Ubume,” a version of which translates to “child-snatching bird.” Makes sense. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The image first spread on a Chinese social dating app called Momo, and that’s how the Momo we know today was born. So how did she spread so fast? And so far? I mean, a police station in Northern Ireland issued a statement and Kim Kardashian posted on Instagram, both figures warning parents about this dangerous, quote, challenge. My friend Rena has a theory that this all happened because the internet was a little newer to us at the time. AI wasn’t generating images like they are today, so we took a lot of things at face value. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The image first spread on a Chinese social dating app called Momo, and that’s how the Momo we know today was born. So how did she spread so fast? And so far? I mean, a police station in Northern Ireland issued a statement and Kim Kardashian posted on Instagram, both figures warning parents about this dangerous, quote, challenge. My friend Rena has a theory that this all happened because the internet was a little newer to us at the time. AI wasn’t generating images like they are today, so we took a lot of things at face value. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rena Lee:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t have this backpedaling of, “Is this AI, is this real?” A lot of information and media that we were fed at the time, it was easier to believe, “Oh my God, this looks so realistic. This has to be a real picture.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rena Lee:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t have this backpedaling of, “Is this AI, is this real?” A lot of information and media that we were fed at the time, it was easier to believe, “Oh my God, this looks so realistic. This has to be a real picture.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> I personally think it’s a combination of this naivete, plus the misinformation being spread by major national news outlets. The public sphere unfortunately feeds off of fear — talk about the horror of it all, right? — and Momo was the scapegoat for millennials and boomers concerned about what new dangers the internet proposed for their children. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> I personally think it’s a combination of this naivete, plus the misinformation being spread by major national news outlets. The public sphere unfortunately feeds off of fear — talk about the horror of it all, right? — and Momo was the scapegoat for millennials and boomers concerned about what new dangers the internet proposed for their children. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Keisuke destroyed the original sculpture not too long after it was created because it started rotting. It was made of materials that weren’t meant to last long. The only part of the sculpture remaining is its eyeball. Here is an excerpt of Keisuke’s interview with The Sun from 2019. He’s speaking through a translator. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Keisuke destroyed the original sculpture not too long after it was created because it started rotting. It was made of materials that weren’t meant to last long. The only part of the sculpture remaining is its eyeball. Here is an excerpt of Keisuke’s interview with The Sun from 2019. He’s speaking through a translator. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from The Sun:\u003c/strong> I got rid of Momo, so it is no longer here with me. I believe it no longer exists in this world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from The Sun:\u003c/strong> I got rid of Momo, so it is no longer here with me. I believe it no longer exists in this world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> He was pretty horrified by the way his art became so misunderstood and taken out of context. I wonder if people today would be as scared as they were five, six years ago when we weren’t burdened with the constant doubt that comes with the images we see online today. The landscape of internet paranoia has changed, and so I wonder if the Momo challenge could be recreated in this day and age. I even miss the mystery she brought to my life, something that has slowly dissipated as I trust the internet less and less. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> He was pretty horrified by the way his art became so misunderstood and taken out of context. I wonder if people today would be as scared as they were five, six years ago when we weren’t burdened with the constant doubt that comes with the images we see online today. The landscape of internet paranoia has changed, and so I wonder if the Momo challenge could be recreated in this day and age. I even miss the mystery she brought to my life, something that has slowly dissipated as I trust the internet less and less. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Momo may have been a hoax, but her impact was real. The image of her bulging eyes and wide smile is still burned into the back of my skull. And when I’m trying to fall asleep at night, and I open my eyes to the dark corner of my room, she’s the figure I imagine standing there…waiting for my eyes to close again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Momo may have been a hoax, but her impact was real. The image of her bulging eyes and wide smile is still burned into the back of my skull. And when I’m trying to fall asleep at night, and I open my eyes to the dark corner of my room, she’s the figure I imagine standing there…waiting for my eyes to close again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to you by our intern, Lauren Yoon. We’ll have more on Momo in our further reading, but before you hit that link, consider this your jumpscare warning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to you by our intern, Lauren Yoon. We’ll have more on Momo in our further reading, but before you hit that link, consider this your jumpscare warning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anyway, I have one more story for you. It starts with an eBay listing for an antique wine cabinet with strict warnings to never open it, lest you unleash misfortune upon anyone who comes in contact with the box. But the real horror story here is disappointingly mundane. Let’s open one last tab. The haunted doll scam market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anyway, I have one more story for you. It starts with an eBay listing for an antique wine cabinet with strict warnings to never open it, lest you unleash misfortune upon anyone who comes in contact with the box. But the real horror story here is disappointingly mundane. Let’s open one last tab. The haunted doll scam market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the most infamous haunted objects was actually sold on eBay. In 2003, Kevin Mannis listed an antique wine cabinet with an unusually detailed description. He had picked it up at an estate sale, and the woman who sold it to him said it belonged to her grandmother, a Holocaust survivor. Her grandmother had been insistent that her family never, ever open the box. She said it contained a spirit called a dybbuk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the most infamous haunted objects was actually sold on eBay. In 2003, Kevin Mannis listed an antique wine cabinet with an unusually detailed description. He had picked it up at an estate sale, and the woman who sold it to him said it belonged to her grandmother, a Holocaust survivor. Her grandmother had been insistent that her family never, ever open the box. She said it contained a spirit called a dybbuk. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Did Kevin heed the warning? No. He brought it back to his workshop and opened it right up — ignoring the creepy locks of hair and carved Hebrew prayers inside. A series of tragedies followed. His mother had a stroke when she opened the box. His siblings complained of terrifying nightmares. Someone who knocked the box off a shelf died by suicide the same day. Kevin himself started having visions of a demonic old woman with sunken eyes. He recounted the story in his eBay listing, which ended with, “Help me.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Did Kevin heed the warning? No. He brought it back to his workshop and opened it right up — ignoring the creepy locks of hair and carved Hebrew prayers inside. A series of tragedies followed. His mother had a stroke when she opened the box. His siblings complained of terrifying nightmares. Someone who knocked the box off a shelf died by suicide the same day. Kevin himself started having visions of a demonic old woman with sunken eyes. He recounted the story in his eBay listing, which ended with, “Help me.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The box was bought and resold several times over the next decade. Owners complained of hair falling out in clumps, bleeding from the eyes, waking up choking, and dreams of the creepy old woman. The box finally found a permanent home in a museum for haunted objects, sealed behind layers of protective glass. It even inspired the 2012 movie, The Possession. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The box was bought and resold several times over the next decade. Owners complained of hair falling out in clumps, bleeding from the eyes, waking up choking, and dreams of the creepy old woman. The box finally found a permanent home in a museum for haunted objects, sealed behind layers of protective glass. It even inspired the 2012 movie, The Possession. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then, five years ago, Kevin admitted that it was all fake. He made up everything in the original listing. There are no dybbuk boxes in Jewish folklore. The malicious spirits attached to people, not objects. The people who bought the box after Kevin sold it maintained that their hauntings really happened. But as far as Kevin was concerned, the whole eBay thing was a creative writing exercise that spiraled out of control. But today, haunted objects are a hot commodity. And one object, in particular, has become incredibly popular in the secondhand haunted market: dolls. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then, five years ago, Kevin admitted that it was all fake. He made up everything in the original listing. There are no dybbuk boxes in Jewish folklore. The malicious spirits attached to people, not objects. The people who bought the box after Kevin sold it maintained that their hauntings really happened. But as far as Kevin was concerned, the whole eBay thing was a creative writing exercise that spiraled out of control. But today, haunted objects are a hot commodity. And one object, in particular, has become incredibly popular in the secondhand haunted market: dolls. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> EBay, Etsy, they’re all over the place. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> EBay, Etsy, they’re all over the place. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Taylor, a TikTok creator and YouTuber, also known as Paranormal Teej. She’s a paranormal investigator and haunted doll caretaker. She called me from a room packed with dolls. Can you describe the room you’re in? Like what’s around you? What are the stories behind all that? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Taylor, a TikTok creator and YouTuber, also known as Paranormal Teej. She’s a paranormal investigator and haunted doll caretaker. She called me from a room packed with dolls. Can you describe the room you’re in? Like what’s around you? What are the stories behind all that? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yes. So in this room, we have about 120 haunted dolls. They come from all around the world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yes. So in this room, we have about 120 haunted dolls. They come from all around the world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor keeps them lined up on shelves. Some are porcelain collector’s dolls, dressed in frilly skirts. Others are soft rag dolls, clearly pre-loved by some young child. And while we talked, I swear I could feel them gazing back at me through the screen. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor keeps them lined up on shelves. Some are porcelain collector’s dolls, dressed in frilly skirts. Others are soft rag dolls, clearly pre-loved by some young child. And while we talked, I swear I could feel them gazing back at me through the screen. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They keep me on my toes. I work with a lot of, like, trickster spirits. I am very interested in working with, like, spirits with kind of wacky, wild personalities. They are a riot. We adore them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They keep me on my toes. I work with a lot of, like, trickster spirits. I am very interested in working with, like, spirits with kind of wacky, wild personalities. They are a riot. We adore them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She introduced me to a few of them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She introduced me to a few of them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So first one I’m going to point out is Jeremiah. If I don’t point him out to you, he will mess with our recordings. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So first one I’m going to point out is Jeremiah. If I don’t point him out to you, he will mess with our recordings. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jeremiah is this big soft bear, wearing a striped t-shirt. His plush legs dangle off the shelf, like a little kid’s would. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jeremiah is this big soft bear, wearing a striped t-shirt. His plush legs dangle off the shelf, like a little kid’s would. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> He is a six and a half year old little boy. The half is very important to him. Six is not acceptable. He moves, he moves things, um, especially lollipops. That’s, like, kind of his gig. He loves green things. Um, everything he wants has to be green. So he has moved like lollie pops around our house, threw them down the stairs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> He is a six and a half year old little boy. The half is very important to him. Six is not acceptable. He moves, he moves things, um, especially lollipops. That’s, like, kind of his gig. He loves green things. Um, everything he wants has to be green. So he has moved like lollie pops around our house, threw them down the stairs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed out another doll. She has a cherubic face and stark black pigtails, and she’s besties with Jeremiah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed out another doll. She has a cherubic face and stark black pigtails, and she’s besties with Jeremiah. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So Hoshiko is five. She’s from Japan. She’ll cause you to have, like, visions like in mirrors and things and she’ll like pop up. So I get the Samara from The Ring in the mirror trick every once in a while. Then she thinks it’s so funny because she likes, like, the reaction. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So Hoshiko is five. She’s from Japan. She’ll cause you to have, like, visions like in mirrors and things and she’ll like pop up. So I get the Samara from The Ring in the mirror trick every once in a while. Then she thinks it’s so funny because she likes, like, the reaction. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And lastly, Taylor points out Ciel. He’s in a black, pointed hat. Like a little witch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And lastly, Taylor points out Ciel. He’s in a black, pointed hat. Like a little witch. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And he is very wise, very gifted. He has given me dreams about things happening a year before they happen and then they come true. And he’s just kind of, he’s my guy. So yeah, those are my, my buddies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And he is very wise, very gifted. He has given me dreams about things happening a year before they happen and then they come true. And he’s just kind of, he’s my guy. So yeah, those are my, my buddies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> You may be skeptical of all this — but there were a couple of inexplicable incidents in the calls I had with Taylor. At some points, the entire video platform that we used flickered — not someone’s webcam, but the whole site. After the interview, our producer, Maya, said she heard low growling coming from Taylor’s side. When Taylor talked about her doll’s antics, I thought I heard faint giggling in the background. And there were chunks of our interview that our transcription software could not figure out. Instead, it spat out a jumble of German, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Brazilian, Portuguese, French, Danish, Korean, and a splash of Telugu. Was that Jeremiah messing with us? Although Maya and I were a little freaked out, Taylor seemed unfazed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> You may be skeptical of all this — but there were a couple of inexplicable incidents in the calls I had with Taylor. At some points, the entire video platform that we used flickered — not someone’s webcam, but the whole site. After the interview, our producer, Maya, said she heard low growling coming from Taylor’s side. When Taylor talked about her doll’s antics, I thought I heard faint giggling in the background. And there were chunks of our interview that our transcription software could not figure out. Instead, it spat out a jumble of German, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Brazilian, Portuguese, French, Danish, Korean, and a splash of Telugu. Was that Jeremiah messing with us? Although Maya and I were a little freaked out, Taylor seemed unfazed. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Everybody asks, like, “How are you safe living in a house with 120 haunted dolls? How are, how were you safe?” And the honest answer is like, they, they respect me because I respect them. I’m just nice to them. Like that’s really all it takes is just like basic kindness. Um, and I think that makes the paranormal a lot less scary when you realize that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Everybody asks, like, “How are you safe living in a house with 120 haunted dolls? How are, how were you safe?” And the honest answer is like, they, they respect me because I respect them. I’m just nice to them. Like that’s really all it takes is just like basic kindness. Um, and I think that makes the paranormal a lot less scary when you realize that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ghosts and the paranormal have been part of Taylor’s life for as long as she could remember. Her mother is a professional psychic. Her aunt is a paranormal investigator. Her grandmother would pull out the Ouija board whenever Taylor stayed over. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ghosts and the paranormal have been part of Taylor’s life for as long as she could remember. Her mother is a professional psychic. Her aunt is a paranormal investigator. Her grandmother would pull out the Ouija board whenever Taylor stayed over. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> My whole dad’s side of the family, even the ones who don’t want to or want anything to do with the paranormal, see ghosts for whatever reason. And so I just, I kind of grew up in this environment where, like, ghosts aren’t scary. They’re just like a thing, you know, like it’s just a fact of life, kind of attitude about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> My whole dad’s side of the family, even the ones who don’t want to or want anything to do with the paranormal, see ghosts for whatever reason. And so I just, I kind of grew up in this environment where, like, ghosts aren’t scary. They’re just like a thing, you know, like it’s just a fact of life, kind of attitude about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor and her husband bonded over the paranormal and fell in love with doll collecting together. They consider themselves spirit keepers — almost like afterlife caretakers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor and her husband bonded over the paranormal and fell in love with doll collecting together. They consider themselves spirit keepers — almost like afterlife caretakers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Some spirits legitimately did own their vessel when they were alive. They were attached to it in life and they’re still attached to, you know, like we have spirits whose vessel was like their comfort item as a kid kind of thing. I do have cases where it was like a spirit who was haunting a location and like the location was getting torn down and they were scared because they didn’t know what would happen to them if the location disappeared. They didn’t know if they would disappear, too. So they kind of found a different way out of necessity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Some spirits legitimately did own their vessel when they were alive. They were attached to it in life and they’re still attached to, you know, like we have spirits whose vessel was like their comfort item as a kid kind of thing. I do have cases where it was like a spirit who was haunting a location and like the location was getting torn down and they were scared because they didn’t know what would happen to them if the location disappeared. They didn’t know if they would disappear, too. So they kind of found a different way out of necessity. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Actually confirming a haunting can take months. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Actually confirming a haunting can take months. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> A lot of spirits will be very quiet and you will have no activity and then six months in at random, they’ll just kind of like pop off and because they’re comfortable with you now. The paranormal field is not a science, right? We don’t have a textbook that says, “This is how you investigate an object. This is how you investigate a location.” And so for us, what our method looks like — because that evidence component is really important to me — I do not feel comfortable saying something is haunted unless I know 100%. If I am 99% sure, I won’t even say, “Yes.” I have to be 100% sure. The other thing about paranormal activity is it’s not predictable. There is zero predictability. You can’t say turn the lights off and they turn the lights off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> A lot of spirits will be very quiet and you will have no activity and then six months in at random, they’ll just kind of like pop off and because they’re comfortable with you now. The paranormal field is not a science, right? We don’t have a textbook that says, “This is how you investigate an object. This is how you investigate a location.” And so for us, what our method looks like — because that evidence component is really important to me — I do not feel comfortable saying something is haunted unless I know 100%. If I am 99% sure, I won’t even say, “Yes.” I have to be 100% sure. The other thing about paranormal activity is it’s not predictable. There is zero predictability. You can’t say turn the lights off and they turn the lights off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to investigate whether a doll is haunted, Taylor first considers what she calls “subjective observations.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to investigate whether a doll is haunted, Taylor first considers what she calls “subjective observations.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Anything from, I saw that doll move to — I saw a ghost in my house to — I heard footsteps or I got a dream from — about this doll, but for me subjective reports are not enough for me to confirm something is haunted because the brain does crazy things. When people are scared and they are around something that they’re suspecting, the brain can do really crazy things to, you know, trick us. You have things like pareidolia, which is, we see faces in things. And so, people can take that as paranormal, but it’s really just your brain playing tricks on you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Anything from, I saw that doll move to — I saw a ghost in my house to — I heard footsteps or I got a dream from — about this doll, but for me subjective reports are not enough for me to confirm something is haunted because the brain does crazy things. When people are scared and they are around something that they’re suspecting, the brain can do really crazy things to, you know, trick us. You have things like pareidolia, which is, we see faces in things. And so, people can take that as paranormal, but it’s really just your brain playing tricks on you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So she tries to collect data: fluctuations in air temperature and air pressure, whether motion sensors are activated, and audio and video recordings. She looks for anomalies that she can document and compare against a control. And lastly, Taylor tries to make contact with whatever might be haunting the doll. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So she tries to collect data: fluctuations in air temperature and air pressure, whether motion sensors are activated, and audio and video recordings. She looks for anomalies that she can document and compare against a control. And lastly, Taylor tries to make contact with whatever might be haunting the doll. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So everybody communicates with spirit slightly differently. For me, the way that works best for me personally is a spirit box. What a spirit box is, is essentially, it is an intentionally broken radio, okay? So basically it rapidly sweeps through radio stations and they can manipulate the radio signals to be able to communicate with you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So everybody communicates with spirit slightly differently. For me, the way that works best for me personally is a spirit box. What a spirit box is, is essentially, it is an intentionally broken radio, okay? So basically it rapidly sweeps through radio stations and they can manipulate the radio signals to be able to communicate with you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She often posts spirit box sessions with her dolls. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She often posts spirit box sessions with her dolls. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So that’s something you’re still trying to understand about 2026? The men awful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So that’s something you’re still trying to understand about 2026? The men awful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did you hear, “The men awful?” Or did you hear a jumble of static? Skeptics say the audio fragments that are picked up by spirit boxes are random and that it’s confirmation bias and pareidolia that leads investigators to find meaning in the sounds. Taylor, however, says it’s more reliable than other methods. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did you hear, “The men awful?” Or did you hear a jumble of static? Skeptics say the audio fragments that are picked up by spirit boxes are random and that it’s confirmation bias and pareidolia that leads investigators to find meaning in the sounds. Taylor, however, says it’s more reliable than other methods. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> There are other tools like Pendulum and Ouija Board, for example, and those things your hands are involved. And for me, like my hands being involved in something, it doesn’t feel like quite as valid of evidence to me. So I really like Spirit Box because my hands are not involved in that. I can’t control what comes out of that box. I have no involvement in that so I like the personal removal from it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> There are other tools like Pendulum and Ouija Board, for example, and those things your hands are involved. And for me, like my hands being involved in something, it doesn’t feel like quite as valid of evidence to me. So I really like Spirit Box because my hands are not involved in that. I can’t control what comes out of that box. I have no involvement in that so I like the personal removal from it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the investigation is a bust. Taylor told me about this time her friends thought she bought a haunted doll. So she brought it over. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the investigation is a bust. Taylor told me about this time her friends thought she bought a haunted doll. So she brought it over. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Pulled out a spirit box and I’m like, “Hey, like if anybody’s there, like can we talk?” And I got nothing for a long time. You know, I’m like, “Maybe they’re shy.” So I keep asking questions. Nothing is happening. I’m like, “Okay.” Not even like a little bit — not even like a hesitation — nothing. And I’m looking at my friend and I am like, “We’re not getting anything.” And then the spirit box starts talking. And I am thinking, “Oh, maybe they finally decided to show up.” No. Um, it’s Omi, who’s down here in the blue, she’s hilarious. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Pulled out a spirit box and I’m like, “Hey, like if anybody’s there, like can we talk?” And I got nothing for a long time. You know, I’m like, “Maybe they’re shy.” So I keep asking questions. Nothing is happening. I’m like, “Okay.” Not even like a little bit — not even like a hesitation — nothing. And I’m looking at my friend and I am like, “We’re not getting anything.” And then the spirit box starts talking. And I am thinking, “Oh, maybe they finally decided to show up.” No. Um, it’s Omi, who’s down here in the blue, she’s hilarious. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed to a doll behind her. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed to a doll behind her. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And she comes on and she’s like, “There’s nothing there.” And I’m like, “It’s not haunted, is it?” And she’s, like, “No.” And I’m like, “Thanks!” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And she comes on and she’s like, “There’s nothing there.” And I’m like, “It’s not haunted, is it?” And she’s, like, “No.” And I’m like, “Thanks!” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Here’s the tea: the paranormal makes for really good content. This was a very niche hobby until a few years ago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Here’s the tea: the paranormal makes for really good content. This was a very niche hobby until a few years ago. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So, in my opinion, I think the COVID pandemic just shot haunted doll sales up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So, in my opinion, I think the COVID pandemic just shot haunted doll sales up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is around the same time “witchtok” took off — the corner of TikTok dedicated to modern witchcraft. Videos of spell jar recipes, algorithmically recommended tarot readings, and ghost hunting all overlapped with the same audience. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is around the same time “witchtok” took off — the corner of TikTok dedicated to modern witchcraft. Videos of spell jar recipes, algorithmically recommended tarot readings, and ghost hunting all overlapped with the same audience. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And I think that is largely due to the fact that people were home and they were bored out of their mind and they were looking for something to do. And I think a lot of people were also doom scrolling at that time. Everybody was sitting on TikTok and YouTube all day long watching videos and so people had haunted dolls or making more videos about their haunted dolls than usual because they’re at home all day with them and it was just a perfect storm for like a lot more people who like were not involved in the paranormal or anything to just kind of like decide to try something different. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And I think that is largely due to the fact that people were home and they were bored out of their mind and they were looking for something to do. And I think a lot of people were also doom scrolling at that time. Everybody was sitting on TikTok and YouTube all day long watching videos and so people had haunted dolls or making more videos about their haunted dolls than usual because they’re at home all day with them and it was just a perfect storm for like a lot more people who like were not involved in the paranormal or anything to just kind of like decide to try something different. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The more sensational the paranormal content, the better it did online. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The more sensational the paranormal content, the better it did online. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And one of the party tricks that I see a lot is with EMF meters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And one of the party tricks that I see a lot is with EMF meters. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These are handheld devices that detect and measure electromagnetic activity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These are handheld devices that detect and measure electromagnetic activity. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They are not ghost metal detectors. Everybody just sees the EMF spike and they assume, “Oh, that’s a ghost,” but they don’t think about all of the other things that set off an EMF meter. Well, we’re in 2026. We have smartwatches that are setting off EMF meters, Wi-Fi, your cell phone — those things are set off by any form of electricity and all of our houses and all these locations are full of electricity, right? But a lot of people will, you know, share proof that their doll is haunted by essentially putting their phone right up to a doll that has an EMF meter on its lap and the EMF is going off and it’s hitting red and everybody’s forgetting that the phone that they’re filming that video on is what is triggering it. So when I see an account where the whole page is just EMF up to a cell phone and nothing else, I’m suspicious. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They are not ghost metal detectors. Everybody just sees the EMF spike and they assume, “Oh, that’s a ghost,” but they don’t think about all of the other things that set off an EMF meter. Well, we’re in 2026. We have smartwatches that are setting off EMF meters, Wi-Fi, your cell phone — those things are set off by any form of electricity and all of our houses and all these locations are full of electricity, right? But a lot of people will, you know, share proof that their doll is haunted by essentially putting their phone right up to a doll that has an EMF meter on its lap and the EMF is going off and it’s hitting red and everybody’s forgetting that the phone that they’re filming that video on is what is triggering it. So when I see an account where the whole page is just EMF up to a cell phone and nothing else, I’m suspicious. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> By becoming so trendy, Taylor says the paranormal community has become less about making contact with the other side and more about making content out of it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> By becoming so trendy, Taylor says the paranormal community has become less about making contact with the other side and more about making content out of it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I think it’s social media and it’s not just haunted dolls, it’s the whole overall paranormal community. You know, the people that are into the paranormal will chase it to the end of the earth. I mean, some of these locations will charge you, you know, hundreds, thousands of dollars to go investigate there for the night. It’s extremely lucrative. Investigators are seeking evidence. They are interested, obviously. But there’s also, I think, the social media pressure. Content creators, especially, it’s like they, you know, want to — to get content out and they want to keep going so they have to go to more haunted locations and you know, have to have more experiences, because they’re sharing the experiences with the public and people are expecting to see it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I think it’s social media and it’s not just haunted dolls, it’s the whole overall paranormal community. You know, the people that are into the paranormal will chase it to the end of the earth. I mean, some of these locations will charge you, you know, hundreds, thousands of dollars to go investigate there for the night. It’s extremely lucrative. Investigators are seeking evidence. They are interested, obviously. But there’s also, I think, the social media pressure. Content creators, especially, it’s like they, you know, want to — to get content out and they want to keep going so they have to go to more haunted locations and you know, have to have more experiences, because they’re sharing the experiences with the public and people are expecting to see it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And as this genre of content took off, the market for haunted objects suddenly became very lucrative. EBay, Etsy, and Facebook Marketplace technically do allow for sales of haunted or occult objects, as long as the listing includes a disclaimer that it’s for entertainment purposes only. But that disclaimer also means that you can get away with anything. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And as this genre of content took off, the market for haunted objects suddenly became very lucrative. EBay, Etsy, and Facebook Marketplace technically do allow for sales of haunted or occult objects, as long as the listing includes a disclaimer that it’s for entertainment purposes only. But that disclaimer also means that you can get away with anything. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> People want to have a paranormal experience. People are interested in that now. It didn’t used to be. Everybody didn’t wanna have a paranormal experience before, but now it’s like, people are chasing an experience. So people have learned — there are people who will pay anything to get to have this happen. I think that people have caught on to that. It’s trendy right now, it’s in right now and everybody’s looking for a time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> People want to have a paranormal experience. People are interested in that now. It didn’t used to be. Everybody didn’t wanna have a paranormal experience before, but now it’s like, people are chasing an experience. So people have learned — there are people who will pay anything to get to have this happen. I think that people have caught on to that. It’s trendy right now, it’s in right now and everybody’s looking for a time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, people have learned like, okay, before I could go to like, buy one of those empty storage lockers and I could sell everything for $10 a piece, whatever, but if the haunted doll people pay 200 bucks for that, that’s what I’m going to charge. Um, and the fact of the matter is, when people buy it, people will sell it because there’s a demand for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, people have learned like, okay, before I could go to like, buy one of those empty storage lockers and I could sell everything for $10 a piece, whatever, but if the haunted doll people pay 200 bucks for that, that’s what I’m going to charge. Um, and the fact of the matter is, when people buy it, people will sell it because there’s a demand for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like the dybbuk box that duped countless people 20 years ago, many of these listings have elaborate descriptions recounting tales of supernatural, otherworldly encounters. And dolls, especially, can go for way more than what they’re typically worth if they’re labeled “haunted.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I mean, I’ve seen in the thousands, multiple times. I always tell people the higher the price doesn’t mean that it’s more haunted than the ones that are a lower price. Like, a spirit is a spirit. There’s no such thing as like, this spirit is more spirity than this other spirit. My rule of thumb that I always tell people is like, “You can’t put a price on the paranormal,” right? Paranormal experiences are not guaranteed. Paranormal experiences are not scientific fact. So for me, ethically, I believe that the object should be priced similarly to the price that their vessel or their doll is worth. So if you have a doll that is like a collector’s item and worth $300 — yeah, list it for $300. If you have a doll that’s worth $50, list it for $50. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I mean, I’ve seen in the thousands, multiple times. I always tell people the higher the price doesn’t mean that it’s more haunted than the ones that are a lower price. Like, a spirit is a spirit. There’s no such thing as like, this spirit is more spirity than this other spirit. My rule of thumb that I always tell people is like, “You can’t put a price on the paranormal,” right? Paranormal experiences are not guaranteed. Paranormal experiences are not scientific fact. So for me, ethically, I believe that the object should be priced similarly to the price that their vessel or their doll is worth. So if you have a doll that is like a collector’s item and worth $300 — yeah, list it for $300. If you have a doll that’s worth $50, list it for $50. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The dybbuk box eBay listing was such a novelty at the time. Now, haunted doll listings are a dime a dozen. On eBay today, I scrolled through listings for haunted dolls, haunted clip-on earrings, haunted keys, haunted cargo pants, haunted labubus and — not joking — a quote, haunted by curious dybbuk box. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The dybbuk box eBay listing was such a novelty at the time. Now, haunted doll listings are a dime a dozen. On eBay today, I scrolled through listings for haunted dolls, haunted clip-on earrings, haunted keys, haunted cargo pants, haunted labubus and — not joking — a quote, haunted by curious dybbuk box. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I am not cut out for the haunted doll life, but if you were to buy one, how are you supposed to sift through all the haunted scams? Taylor actually makes haunted doll guides and recently started focusing more on creating seller checklists so her followers can vet listings for themselves. She’s wary of any seller that makes content of EMF readings. She’s also suspicious of large-scale listings. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I am not cut out for the haunted doll life, but if you were to buy one, how are you supposed to sift through all the haunted scams? Taylor actually makes haunted doll guides and recently started focusing more on creating seller checklists so her followers can vet listings for themselves. She’s wary of any seller that makes content of EMF readings. She’s also suspicious of large-scale listings. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> You go on their page and they have a hundred Haunted Dolls listed and nearly all of them have the same story. I mean, spirits are — they’re people and every person is different. So how do you have a 100 spirits who all are the same person basically with a different name and like slightly changed details? So that’s a red flag. The other thing is if the facts don’t line up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> You go on their page and they have a hundred Haunted Dolls listed and nearly all of them have the same story. I mean, spirits are — they’re people and every person is different. So how do you have a 100 spirits who all are the same person basically with a different name and like slightly changed details? So that’s a red flag. The other thing is if the facts don’t line up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I have seen — this happens a lot. This is a big one. The story will say, “Oh, this doll is haunted by so-and-so and so-and-so owned this doll when they were alive and it was very meaningful to them, so they chose to keep it with them in the afterlife.” And you source the year on the vessel, and the vessel — the doll itself — was made in 1980. It says that the spirit is from the 1800s. That’s impossible. They couldn’t have owned the doll in the 1800s when the doll was made in the 1980s. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I have seen — this happens a lot. This is a big one. The story will say, “Oh, this doll is haunted by so-and-so and so-and-so owned this doll when they were alive and it was very meaningful to them, so they chose to keep it with them in the afterlife.” And you source the year on the vessel, and the vessel — the doll itself — was made in 1980. It says that the spirit is from the 1800s. That’s impossible. They couldn’t have owned the doll in the 1800s when the doll was made in the 1980s. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok is full of complaints and warnings of haunted scams. This is especially frustrating to Taylor, who really sees spirit keeping as a lifelong commitment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok is full of complaints and warnings of haunted scams. This is especially frustrating to Taylor, who really sees spirit keeping as a lifelong commitment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Seeing people repeatedly getting things that are fake. One, obviously it’s a waste of money. I mean, obviously that’s irritating. Financial scamming is no joke and pisses me off. But it goes beyond that into, you know, those are people that could give an actual spirit a really nice place to live. And getting scammed over and over again chases them away from this hobby. I may be able to change, you know, the quality of afterlife for the spirits in my home. I can help a finite number of spirits, but I can help a lot more spirits if I can teach other people to do what I’m doing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Seeing people repeatedly getting things that are fake. One, obviously it’s a waste of money. I mean, obviously that’s irritating. Financial scamming is no joke and pisses me off. But it goes beyond that into, you know, those are people that could give an actual spirit a really nice place to live. And getting scammed over and over again chases them away from this hobby. I may be able to change, you know, the quality of afterlife for the spirits in my home. I can help a finite number of spirits, but I can help a lot more spirits if I can teach other people to do what I’m doing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m still not sure what my relationship to the paranormal is. I want objective evidence. Data. A clear, unequivocal answer that explains why things are the way that they are. But throughout the interview, I kept catching glimpses of Jeremiah over Taylor’s shoulder with his fluffy teddy bear ears and little legs dangling over the edge of the shelf. And when Taylor talked about taking care of spirits in the afterlife, I swear, I saw him perk up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m still not sure what my relationship to the paranormal is. I want objective evidence. Data. A clear, unequivocal answer that explains why things are the way that they are. But throughout the interview, I kept catching glimpses of Jeremiah over Taylor’s shoulder with his fluffy teddy bear ears and little legs dangling over the edge of the shelf. And when Taylor talked about taking care of spirits in the afterlife, I swear, I saw him perk up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s it for Close All Tabs’ special spooky storytime. We’ll have a fresh deep dive for you next week, but if you’re dying to open more tabs about the tales we told today, check out the episode description for some suggested reading. Or stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s it for Close All Tabs’ special spooky storytime. We’ll have a fresh deep dive for you next week, but if you’re dying to open more tabs about the tales we told today, check out the episode description for some suggested reading. Or stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. It was engineered by Brendan Willard and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production support by Cayla Mihalovich. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. It was engineered by Brendan Willard and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production support by Cayla Mihalovich. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Hallie Tut, Ted Hegemann, Craig Groshek, Rena Lee, and Paranormal Teej for sharing their stories with us. This episode includes clips and archive tape from Hallie Tut, Eli Unique, Paranomal Teej, and Villains Wiki.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Hallie Tut, Ted Hegemann, Craig Groshek, Rena Lee, and Paranormal Teej for sharing their stories with us. This episode includes clips and archive tape from Hallie Tut, Eli Unique, Paranomal Teej, and Villains Wiki.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Apple Maker Hi-75 keyboard with Foggered in Red Samurai keycaps and Gator on Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Apple Maker Hi-75 keyboard with Foggered in Red Samurai keycaps and Gator on Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So when it comes to buying and selling, they don’t really care about the concept of it. Their primary focus is always like, “Am I going somewhere where somebody is going to be nice to me or not?” That’s what they care about — is like, “Am I going to a good home?” But the one thing I know they don’t like is the shipping. They don’t like shipping. I hear complaints about shipping all the time. So. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So when it comes to buying and selling, they don’t really care about the concept of it. Their primary focus is always like, “Am I going somewhere where somebody is going to be nice to me or not?” That’s what they care about — is like, “Am I going to a good home?” But the one thing I know they don’t like is the shipping. They don’t like shipping. I hear complaints about shipping all the time. So. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, yeah, you can’t, you, can’t yeah, kind of out of your control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, yeah, you can’t, you, can’t yeah, kind of out of your control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I’m like, “Sorry.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I’m like, “Sorry.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this special Halloween edition of Close All Tabs, we’re diving into creepypastas: horror stories that spread online until they become urban legends on their own. What happened to the girl who fell into a mirror in 2001? Did Ted the Caver ever come back to the surface? Was the Momo challenge real? And finally, we venture into eBay’s haunted doll marketplace … where we may have ended up with a spirit wreaking havoc on the production of this episode. It’s a ghoulish good time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@hallietut\">Hallie Tut\u003c/a>, visual effects artist, and digital content creator\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@chillingtalesfordarknights\">Craig Groshek\u003c/a>, horror author and founder of \u003cem>Chilling Tales for Dark Nights\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://tedthecaverfan.com\">Ted Hegemann\u003c/a>, author of “Ted the Caver”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Rena Lee, social media manager\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophia-bruno-846358286/\">Sophia Bruno\u003c/a>, educational nonprofit coordinator\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@paranormalteej\">Paranormal Teej\u003c/a>, haunted doll collector & paranormal investigator\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlaXgi-Jpdo\">How She Creates VFX Shots That Break Your Brain\u003c/a> — Hallie Tut, \u003cem>Youtube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://tedthecaverfan.com\">Ted the Caver\u003c/a> — Ted Hegemann\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Momo_(Creepypasta)#:~:text=%E2%80%9C-,Momo,-%2C%20Momo%2C%20Momo%20is\">Momo (Creepypasta)\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Villains Wiki\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://medium.com/@LanceUlanoff/momo-challenge-is-everything-thats-wrong-with-the-internet-4d1a5679c1ed\">Momo Challenge Is Everything That’s Wrong with the Internet\u003c/a> — Lance Ulanoff, \u003cem>Medium\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://yokai.com/ubume/?srsltid=AU7gw4UWwYuhjk8jv7LUe8ip4Sjmbw0bTmlbqoJ6kyNNEwWAjC7IZCV5\">Ubume\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Yokai.com\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/how-momo-global-social-media-hoax-about-paranormal-threat-kids-n977961\">How ‘Momo’, a global social media hoax about a paranormal threat to kids, morphed into a U.S. viral phenomenon\u003c/a> — Ben Collins and Shoshana Wodinsky, \u003cem>NBC News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.inverse.com/input/features/dybbuk-box-dibbuk-kevin-mannis-zak-bagans-haunted-hoax-revealed\">Finally, the truth behind the ‘haunted’ Dybbuk Box can be revealed\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Inverse\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/work/careers/a34322508/the-witches-of-ebay-industry-selling-haunted-item/\">The witches of eBay: Inside the industry selling haunted items online\u003c/a> — Daniella Scott, \u003cem>Cosmopolitan\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/62125/1/a24-youngest-ever-director-kane-parsons-the-backrooms-creepypasta-into-cinema\">The Backrooms: How Kane Parsons turned creepypasta into cinema\u003c/a> — Jack Mills, \u003cem>Dazed\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2026/05/what-is-backrooms-movie-original-explained-4chan-creepypasta-horror-internet.html\">The Eerie Backstory Behind Backrooms\u003c/a> — Nadira Goffe, \u003cem>Slate\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/revisiting-creepypasta-the-social-horror-craze-that-launched-slenderman/\">Revisiting Creepypasta, the Social Horror Craze That Launched Slenderman\u003c/a> — Zac Thompson, \u003cem>VICE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Happy spooky season tabbies. Is there a creepypasta you can’t stop thinking about? Or any internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity keeping you up at night? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate! Go to \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">KQED.org/podcasts/closealltabs\u003c/a> to submit your question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Just a note, this episode contains mentions of suicide and horror themes so listen with care — or skip this one and come back next week. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Let me tell you a story about one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I was in middle school, hanging out in a family friend’s basement with a bunch of other kids, when my friend’s older brother asked us if we wanted to see something. We crowded around his laptop where he pulled up a YouTube video, titled “Entry #1.” It was just a few seconds of shaky footage, shot through a window from inside a house, of a lanky, suited figure lurking near the door. No sound…which made it feel more unsettling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My friend’s brother told us that some guy online found all of these videos in his friend’s camera and started posting them to YouTube. He hit play on the next one. This had sound — some guy talking while he drove down a dark street. Not much is visible in this video…except the blurry silhouette of that same lanky figure, looming in the distance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Marble Hornets:\u003c/strong> I saw this really tall guy stand in the middle of the street, just completely still. For whatever reason, this really set off Rocky, and he got really scared. He wouldn’t move and he kept on pulling on his leash to go back home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back then, everything on the internet seemed real. My friends and I took all of it at face value. So we believed the YouTube comments that said they’d seen this figure too. My friend’s brother left, but the rest of us were totally hooked. So we hit play on another video. This was more shaky footage, again shot through a window from inside a house. The same figure was lurking, closer this time. The camera finally focused on an unnaturally pale, bald head. It had no face at all, just smooth white skin and hollow contours where eyes and a mouth and a nose should be. And then it turned to face the viewer, as if it was honing in on us. Then, my friend’s brother, from the top of the stairs, called out, “Who wants to meet Slenderman?” And shut off the basement lights. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The legend of Slenderman started in 2009, when someone posted black and white photos of children on a playground, seemingly oblivious to the spindly creature looming over them. The captions alluded to a string of child abductions from the 1980s. It was a submission for a Photoshop contest of paranormal happenings, which later inspired the YouTube series, Marble Hornets. That was the supposedly found footage that we watched in my friend’s basement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I totally fell for it. For a good year after, I was terrified to look through windows at night in case Slenderman was peering back in. That was my first experience with a creepypasta. The word “creepypasta” is a play on “copypasta” — which is a portmanteau of “copy-paste.” They’re blocks of text that become memes because they’re copied and reposted so often. Creepypastas are online urban legends, Horror stories that start on forums and comment sections that spread across the internet and take on lives of their own. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome to Cursed All Tabs. This is our very special Halloween episode, where, instead of one deep dive, we have a bunch of spooky stories for you. These are tales of the paranormal kept alive on the internet. A girl stuck in a portal, caving gone wrong, an entity that might get you through the screen, and the eBay listings for haunted dolls. So, gather around our digital campfire and if you’re easily scared, don’t listen in the dark. Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is Cursed All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung — tech journalist and your chronically online nightmare — here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s open our first tab and get into our first spooky story: “The girl in the mirror.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Picture this: It’s the middle of the night. You can’t sleep. You’re doom-scrolling. It’s way past your bedtime and you’ve been awake for a little too long. So, in the darkness of your room, shadows start to take on the shape of strange figures. You catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror, barely visible in the moonlight, and for a second, it seems like the room and the reflection is deeper. Like it goes on forever. And then…mid-scroll, you come across this video. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> There’s something really strange going on here, and if something ends up happening to me, I just hope that this video can maybe explain it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a video of a teenager recording herself on an old-school, hand-held camcorder. The caption says it’s found footage dating back to January 2001. The camera sweeps across her bedroom — a matching set of yellow furniture, frilly curtains, pink walls, very 90s — and settles on an antique mirror propped up on a chair. It faces another full-length mirror mounted to the wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Okay, so I have these two mirrors in my room. As you can see, they’re pretty normal looking mirrors, but I was cleaning and I had them kind of set up like this, and I noticed something really weird. Just watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The girl places the camcorder on the bed and films herself putting her hand on one of the mirrors, but she passes straight through the glass into another world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> See, when you look through the mirror into the other one, it becomes like a window. And there’s this huge warehouse, grocery store, or something down there. But wait, it gets even crazier. Watch this. Three, two, one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She fully jumps through the mirror and is transported into what looks like a fully stocked supermarket. But the aisles go on forever and there’s nobody else in sight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Woah. What the hell? What is this place? Hello? How far does it go? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She begins running, and then… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Oh shit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The camcorder zaps back to her room mid-air before bouncing onto her frilly white bed. It faces another mirror and in the reflection, the room looks empty. The girl is nowhere to be seen. You’re thoroughly creeped out so you start scouring the comments. Legend has it…she’s still missing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from ItsNickHoliday:\u003c/strong> A video a girl recorded in her bedroom in 2001, right before she went missing, has resurfaced and now is going viral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Generalist Authority:\u003c/strong> The camera was later found on her bed. She has not been located. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from brookesobasic:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if people know this or not, but facing two mirrors together is something you just shouldn’t do. And it’s said to open portals or bring in really bad energies or spirits — sometimes good — but usually bad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what happened to this girl who fell through a mirror over 20 years ago and was never heard from again? What is it about that abandoned, endless supermarket that feels both so familiar and so unsettling? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it — it just really is something where you don’t normally stay very long in a place like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Hallie Tutte, a VFX artist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Liminal spaces are kind of these transitional places where usually it would be somewhere that’s filled of people going from point A to point B when a place that usually is filled with people is now completely empty — that gives it that eerie feeling because you never usually are used to seeing it completely abandoned like that. So if you got trapped there, it just brings out this strange feeling in you, I think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Halle is the real girl in the video. And don’t worry, she did not get stuck in the portal despite what some internet conspiracy theorists might think. She’s always been fascinated by liminal horror — stories that take place in vacant, in-between spaces, like the internet lore that inspired the movie Backrooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I grew up in a town that didn’t have a lot of people in it, and there’d be like these old shopping malls where no one would be around and all the stores are gone. And I always just loved the feeling of being in those spaces, like empty food courts. Me and my friends would just like to kind of hang out there. And I guess when I got into 3D modeling, it was a really fun way to get to build that feeling again by creating those spaces. And it’s something that’s really easy to accomplish in 3D and make it feel very real, very quickly because it’s just a lot of walls and lights and rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that video wasn’t filmed in 2001, but actually made in 2023. Hallie was inspired by found footage movies like The Blair Witch Project. She wanted to create something that felt like it was from the early 2000s, but using modern equipment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I shot it completely by myself in my room and it was actually shot on a Sony camera on a tripod and then any of the handheld stuff is all fake. The mirror that she’s shooting into is fake and to create that infinite Walmart effect, I went to my local Walmart late at night when it feels like a liminal space and I was able to kind of scan all of the shelves and create these 3D models that I then brought into, like a software like Blender, and created this infinite world with it. And yeah, it’s shot in my real bedroom. I live with my grandparents, so this used to be my aunt’s room. And everything in it feels very of the time period that I was trying to make that video set in, so it worked out really well that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The video got a lot of views when she first posted it, but didn’t really go viral until a year later, when other influencers reposted it, speculating about what really happened to the girl in the mirror. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Even one of my art school teachers had sent me a link on Facebook to like a conspiracy channel where he’d seen it and asking if it was me. And that video had maybe 3 million views and thousands of comments, people’s discourse about whether it was real. Having remembered seeing this video from when they were younger, like in the early 2000s, people had made up like memories of it. Like kind of that Mandela effect was happening where people had — had this memory of knowing this story of this girl who went missing years prior to when I posted the video. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So it was — it was just going all over the place online and I kind of started to go down a rabbit hole of Reddit posts about it and different names they were making up for the girl in the video. Like in one spot her name was Violet and the video was titled “Violet’s Playtime” or something strange like that. And then people were kind of using that name to discuss it in different forums. So just gets it away from you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year, Hallie posted a video explaining that she was the creator of the video and that none of it was real. Even then, the conspiracies continued to spread. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> When I made the video talking about how it was fake and I explained how I had made it and how viral it had went around the internet, but trying to claim that, in fact, it was me in my room by myself and I’m here and I am alive — a lot of people in those comments were saying, “The government made her do this,” or “She’s AI and this is a cover up — like this is the CIA cover up for this girl who’s still missing. She’s just — this is just a plant. This girl trying to pretend she’s the girl so they can keep hiding this conspiracy from us.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s wild how drastically the internet has changed since 2023. AI videos back then were nowhere near as convincing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it would be a lot harder now with AI and even just the VFX work that was put into that. I don’t know if it would feel worth it anymore because of the way that people would just write it off. That video was definitely a labor of love for the technical challenges that I had to go through to make it look realistic and I think people now just won’t appreciate the craft that goes into something like that because they’ll just write it all off as AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, I don’t know if I’d ever do one quite in the same way. I think if I had a really good story that I wanted to tell, and it was more based on just a really horror story, I might try again. But in a way that was more of a fun technical challenge for me to make it convincing. And in today’s day and age. That’s no longer really a worthy challenge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s so depressing. Have we killed creepypastas with AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think creepypastes will live on, especially the more fictional stories that can’t be real things but that people really wish were real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hallie herself is still making creepy horror content, pushing herself with new technical challenges and VFX tools. But the story she put out into the world three years ago continues to spread and morph beyond what she ever created. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> It is essentially a creepypasta now, and the creepypasta might be well known by people, but it’s never going to really come back to me, which I kind of appreciate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If, during the witching hour, you place two mirrors facing each other, you might open a ghostly passage. Legend has it that, if you look long enough, the infinite reflections will dissolve into all sorts of in-between places — sprawling underground train stations, sterile hospital waiting rooms, school hallways lined with pristine lockers. They will almost always be eerily empty, as if time comes to a standstill there. And sometimes, you might catch a glimpse of a cavernous, eternal supermarket — and the pink-haired teenager doomed to wander its empty aisles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That story was brought to us by producer Maya Cueva. Unsettled yet? Well, we’re just getting started. The next internet scary story we have for you is actually the one that started it all. It’s known as the very first creepypasta, dating back to 2001. This tale comes from our very own senior editor, Chris Egusa. You might wanna turn on the lights for this one. Okay, let’s open a new tab. Who is Ted the Caver? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> In early 2001, a series of posts started appearing on an obscure Angelfire website, a site-building platform from the early internet. The page was bare bones. Basic HTML, a black background, and at the top, a salmon-colored title: “Welcome to the Page of Ted.” The posts were journal entries. The author? Anonymous, except for that first name: Ted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Over the course of a few months, Ted posted a detailed account of a series of caving trips he took with a friend he identified only as “B,” to explore a previously unentered passage in a spot they called “Mystery Cave.” According to the first entry, the pair had found a hole in the rock wall deep inside the cave. It was only four to five inches across, but they knew it had to lead somewhere because of a steady stream of air that blew through it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The first journal entry included a link to a grainy photo of the hole. It was uneven in shape, and the rock it went through looked several inches thick. There was a glove tucked inside the hole for scale. The entry went on. Peeking through the hole with a mini maglite, they could see a tight tunnel that opened up after a few feet. They could feel the air blowing past, and they could hear something else: a low rumbling that came and went. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ted and B brushed aside the strange details. They were too excited at the prospect of finding their way into a completely unexplored passage. So they made a plan: come back with hand tools and a cordless drill, break up the solid rock, and widen the hole until it was big enough to squeeze through. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ted named the passage Floyd’s Tomb, as a nod to Floyd Collins — an early 20th century cave explorer who got trapped and died as he attempted to enlarge a small tunnel in a cave system in Kentucky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Every few weeks through early 2001, a new post would appear on the website. They detailed the slow, grueling work of drilling and chiseling through rock until the batteries on their lights and tools ran out. Since the cave was a good distance from where they lived, Ted and B would stay at a nearby motel, recharge their batteries and bodies, and continue working the next day before heading home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Occasionally, Ted would mention some odd detail. Something unsettling. In one post, he described the wind as getting louder, a howl at that point. The rumbling had become more frequent, and he noted that it seemed to be emanating from deeper in the cave. Then he’d move on, refocusing on the task at hand. Each post linked more photos, documenting the progression of the hole. And as the entries went on, the details got stranger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On a trip in February, they brought B’s Jack Russell Terrier into the cave. Typically excitable and enthusiastic, she became edgy and began to whimper as she approached the hole. Her hair stood on end and she refused to get any closer. Later that same trip, B heard a scratching, grinding sound coming from inside the hole. When he got Ted’s attention to listen, it stopped. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On another trip in early March, Ted was kneeling at the wall, drilling — ear plugs in and safety glasses on. Over the noise of the drill, he heard a high-pitched sound. He pulled his earplug out just in time to hear an ear-piercing scream coming from inside the hole, echoing through the darkness. In his journal, he described it as a cross between a man screaming in fear and a cougar screaming in pain. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The next day, the two couldn’t stop thinking about the sound. But they rationalized it as some kind of animal and decided to continue on, focused on getting to the other side. They’d come too far to give up. In the next entry, Ted explained that they’d widened the hole enough to squeeze through. It was so tight that Ted had to turn his head to the side and wedge himself in with his arms pinned at his sides. As he went further, he could feel the rock pressing into his back. The only way forward was to exhale all of his breath and push with his feet. So that’s what he did. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Exhale. Scoot an inch or two. Breathe in shallowly. Exhale again. Scoot further. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The photo linked in that entry showed Ted wedged into the crevice wearing a black bandana, head cocked to the right. The flash lit up jagged rocks littering the floor beneath him. Then the passage began to open up. Ted was able to crawl forward, emerging for the first time into the untouched cavern. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The entries kept coming. And, without spoiling the rest of the story, things escalated from there. Ted found strange hieroglyphic markings on the cave wall, an unnaturally round rock that seemed to be moving on its own. A smell he described as damp, rotting, rancid, putrid, death, drifting up from deeper in the cave. Then, in the deepest section of the tunnel, he encountered something. Something that seemed to follow him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The last entry on the site was from Ted, writing the morning of his final trip into the cave. By then, he was badly shaken and suffering from lucid nightmares. He was determined to figure out what was going on, once and for all. And then, the entries stopped. Even years later, nothing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the Angelfire site stayed up, preserving Ted’s story. The collection of entries — nine in total, clocking in at over 25,000 words — is now known as Ted the Caver, and many consider it to be the very first creepypasta. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> At the time when I first read it, there was nothing like it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig Groshek is a horror author who runs Chilling Tales for Dark Nights, a company and YouTube channel devoted to creepypasta, along with several podcasts. He first came across Ted the Caver in high school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> You’re just surfing the internet and all of a sudden you come across this poor guy, you know, getting trapped with unspeakable horrors in the underground. And the story very much leaves you feeling that you don’t know what happened to him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> At the center of a lot of the online discussion was one question — was it real? The story had all these supernatural elements, but it also felt believable. The gear, the technical descriptions of caving, the photos. It read like a real caving journal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> Just when you thought there’s a chance that this was baloney, he threw up a photo. Critical thinking aside, that inclusion of photos drew you right back in, and it made everything that came after it even scarier. And of course we were experiencing this in real time. If you were there when it happened, this wasn’t a story you picked up years later. This was a man this was actually happening to, and you couldn’t do anything about it. It was like watching someone sleepwalk into traffic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But you couldn’t ask Ted. For years, no one could confirm who he was, or whether his name was even Ted. Authorship of the story was disputed, with several people taking credit. Eventually, the real Ted emerged and began posting intermittently on some online forums. In 2015, Craig decided to track him down in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> All I had to go on was the original post and some forums on the internet where he had appeared. And the way I found him was via reverse image search. He used the same picture, I believe he was standing on train tracks, maybe with his dog, and it was the same pictures of him on every forum that he used. I tracked him down to a disc golf course. I had the guy at the country club there, because they have a golf course and a disc golf and I had them hand Ted my information on a cocktail napkin. And the next thing you know, Ted’s calling me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig commissioned Ted to write an original horror story for an anthology he was putting together. It was only the second horror story Ted had ever written. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name is Ted Hegemann. I am the author of the story that is now known as “Ted the Caver.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> His story about the terrors lurking in Mystery Cave was his first. Ted is now 62 and lives in Utah. These days, he spends his free time playing disc golf. It’s the latest in a string of obsessions. 25 years ago, he was obsessed with caving. And, as it turns out, a lot of the story is based on real experiences. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> So, my buddy, Brad and I — who is B in the story — we went out to this cave that’s right on the border of Utah and Nevada. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Ted and Brad really did open up an entrance to a new passage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It took us numerous trips, I think eight trips before I was able to get past the opening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The squeeze through Floyd’s tomb? Ted says it happened just how he wrote it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was literally exhaling my lungs and scooting with my feet, with my arms down to my side to keep my shoulders down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Technically, he did the squeeze twice. By the second time, they had opened the passage up a little wider, and he was able to fit through with slightly more ease. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was keeping a journal the entire time — a caving journal — as well as updating friends and family, you know, as to the progress. It was kind of a neat thing. And when we were done, I thought rather than telling everyone about it, I’ll just upload my journal on a — find a website — and put it up. And then I had the idea that it’d be kind of fun to embellish a little bit. And so that’s where the story came from. So much of it is just directly out of my caving journal. And then the creepy parts were invented, of course. But the idea didn’t come until after we had gone into the cave. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> A lot of the eerie details were rooted in his actual experience, too. Like the air blowing through the hole. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We knew about the hole because we would stop there, because the wind blew out and you generally worked up a little bit of a sweat getting to that point in the cave. So we would stop and just let the cool air cool us off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And the low rumbling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We figured it was I-80 — just trucks or whatever — because it wasn’t constant. It was just every once in a while. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And they really brought a Jack Russell terrier into the cave. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Demon dog, oh my goodness, it nipped at me so many times. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But the part about it whimpering and refusing to go near the hole, that was embellished. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It was having a good time running around exploring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> I asked Ted at what point the story became complete fiction. I’m thinking of — there’s the terrifying scream that you both hear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> The scream. The grinding noise that we would hear inside, the smell when I went in there, and the round rock. There was no round rock, sadly. Oh, and the little hieroglyph thing that was in there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> It took Ted almost a year to write the whole thing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> And at one point, I gave up on it. I thought, “Oh, this is dumb. Who’s going to want to read this?” But then I sucked it up and thought, “Yeah, at least finish it. And then who cares? You know, if nothing happens.” But yeah, little did I know. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> He posted it, one update at a time, through the spring of 2001, and he knew the story had attracted a decent readership. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I did have a hidden counter on there and got up into the tens of thousands of views. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The story simmered underground, making its way through different communities, but never going viral the way things might today. And then, a few years after he posted the story, someone sent him a link to a caving forum where it was being discussed. After that, he started digging around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> That was one of the cooler weekends of my life. I remember our internet was really slow. So I went to the library and I just kept searching and found all these forums where they’re talking about it. And it just blew me away. How many people liked it. So many people said it scared them to death in very colorful ways. It was just so fun to know that that people were reading it and enjoying it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> For Ted, who’s not even a big horror fan, the fact that this story he posted 25 years ago keeps coming up is a lasting source of enjoyment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I just discovered this like last year. I started Googling and I found all of these YouTube channels where they talk about the story. They’ll read it and then give their thoughts about it. And I mean, one of them had three million views. It just kind of blew me away. I think it’s just a blast. I love it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> So is Ted the Caver the first creepypasta? As with most things on the internet, it’s hard to pinpoint. The term creepypasta itself came into use years later. And some people point to the genre’s similarities to chain emails from the 90s, which pre-date Ted’s story. But Craig Groshek says Ted the Caver certainly has a claim to the title. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> If you’re looking at the Mount Rushmore of creepypasta, of internet-based horror, Ted the Caver’s is definitely up there. In terms of storytelling — the immersion, the fact that you felt like this was a real person that may have actually disappeared, and for years that remained uncontested — you have to put it up there just for that. He was really a pioneer without realizing that’s what he was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> More widely known creepypastas like Slenderman and more recently Backrooms, which was turned into a Hollywood movie this year, all have their roots in Ted the Caver. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> I think you can trace it to a lot of these things, but Backrooms being the most recent example. I don’t know that you can say these things wouldn’t have existed without Ted, but you can’t say that they would either. This entire genre started with a couple of people copying and pasting creepy stuff to try to get a rise out of somebody. And Ted absolutely leaned into that at the end. He knew there were people that thought he was dead and he didn’t even care. Thanks, Ted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> When Ted Hegemann posted his story on Angelfire, he could have never anticipated where it would go. It was adapted into a movie in 2008 called Living Dark: The Story of Ted the Caver. And as for Mystery Cave? It’s been officially mapped out now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It’s called “Interstate Cave” and thankfully they did call that passage “Floyd’s Tomb” so it’s official on the map now. And DeWalt’s Dig, it was the opening, because we were using DeWalt tools. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig says that for all the ways storytelling has changed over the years with digital media, in some ways, it hasn’t changed at all. Instead of sitting around a physical campfire, we now sit around a digital one — on message boards, comment sections, and Discord chat rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> It started with one man telling his story around what is essentially a digital campfire. And as time has gone on, more and more people have gathered around that fire. And 20 plus years later people are still telling that story and that is a testament to how believable it was, how well written it was how immersive it was and how well it tapped into a primal fear that a lot of people have — whether it’s of the unknown, of the dark or not knowing what you can’t see. And that’s why I think it has stood the test of time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That was senior editor Chris Egusa. One thing about me: You will never catch me caving. Ever. The idea of squeezing into an underground passage where you can get stuck or lost or run out of air sounds hellish enough. And there might be an entity down there? No, thank you! Between whatever’s in the caves and Slenderman lurking in the woods, it seems safer to just stay inside. But the monsters from creepypastas can get you even if you never log off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">After the break, we have a story about the creature haunting your screens. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, when we’re back, what do you know about Momo? Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome back to the Close All Tabs special spooky story time. This next one is about an entity that I hate looking at, even as a full-grown adult. This creepypasta retelling comes from our very own intern, Lauren Yoon. Let’s open another new tab. The legend of Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> Picture a gaunt, paper-skinned woman with a protruding neck and bulging eyes. Her jet-black hair stringy to match a thousand-eye stare that could kill. She looks uncanny. The most important feature of the infamous viral image: she holds a smile that spans cheek-to-cheek in the shape of a “V.” Yep, that’s right. My internet urban legend is Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Fandom:\u003c/strong> Do you want a surprise? Look in their eyes. I won’t lie, you’re going to die. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> It’s 2019. Musical.ly had just become TikTok. Everyone was doing the woah, and Avengers: Endgame was in theaters. And Momo was threatening harm to all who came across her. I remember Momo being passed around between my friend group, joking she would haunt them while they slept or something. Here’s my friend, Sophia, talking about Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sophia Bruno:\u003c/strong> I was very much afraid of it in the sense that I just thought it was a weird-looking picture that my friend introduced me to because I think she was like, “Oh Momo’s gonna get you” and I was like, “What is Momo?” And then she showed me. And my friends and I would mostly joke about it like, “Momo is gonna get you whatever” but in terms of the real-life stories I mean I believed them and I believed — I feel like there was a mysterious lore around it like it would just kind of you and like attach itself to you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> In reality, I also hated Momo. If I was joking about it with friends, it was mostly because laughter is the best defense mechanism against fear. What scared me the most were stories of Momo contacting you over the phone and telling you to do horrible things to yourself or others. It became known in mainstream media as “the Momo challenge.” The idea was that kids would challenge each other to make contact with Momo, sparking her wrath. She was even rumored to have reached kids’ videos on YouTube, where her face would pop up out of nowhere during an episode of Peppa Pig. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The rumors caused a media frenzy, and Momo became a sensationalized, quote, danger to children. The Post, The Today Show, and a bunch of other news outlets around the world warned concerned parents about the internet legend. They encouraged parents to put restrictions on social media and YouTube for their kids — something parents should probably be doing anyway — without evidence that the Momo challenge was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Surprise! It wasn’t. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There has been no evidence to show that Momo or anyone posing as the character actually contacted people, let alone children. YouTube denied any claims of Momo popping up in the middle of their videos, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So where did Momo even come from? Well, she’s a picture of a sculpture called “Mother Bird,” created by Japanese artist Keisuke Aiso. If we zoom out of their original picture, you can clearly see the figure, propped up on a stand in an art gallery. The face we all know and…hate? Attached to a human chest with two huge bird legs. Keisuke based her off of this Japanese folklore called “Ubume,” a version of which translates to “child-snatching bird.” Makes sense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The image first spread on a Chinese social dating app called Momo, and that’s how the Momo we know today was born. So how did she spread so fast? And so far? I mean, a police station in Northern Ireland issued a statement and Kim Kardashian posted on Instagram, both figures warning parents about this dangerous, quote, challenge. My friend Rena has a theory that this all happened because the internet was a little newer to us at the time. AI wasn’t generating images like they are today, so we took a lot of things at face value. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Rena Lee:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t have this backpedaling of, “Is this AI, is this real?” A lot of information and media that we were fed at the time, it was easier to believe, “Oh my God, this looks so realistic. This has to be a real picture.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> I personally think it’s a combination of this naivete, plus the misinformation being spread by major national news outlets. The public sphere unfortunately feeds off of fear — talk about the horror of it all, right? — and Momo was the scapegoat for millennials and boomers concerned about what new dangers the internet proposed for their children. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Keisuke destroyed the original sculpture not too long after it was created because it started rotting. It was made of materials that weren’t meant to last long. The only part of the sculpture remaining is its eyeball. Here is an excerpt of Keisuke’s interview with The Sun from 2019. He’s speaking through a translator. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from The Sun:\u003c/strong> I got rid of Momo, so it is no longer here with me. I believe it no longer exists in this world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> He was pretty horrified by the way his art became so misunderstood and taken out of context. I wonder if people today would be as scared as they were five, six years ago when we weren’t burdened with the constant doubt that comes with the images we see online today. The landscape of internet paranoia has changed, and so I wonder if the Momo challenge could be recreated in this day and age. I even miss the mystery she brought to my life, something that has slowly dissipated as I trust the internet less and less. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Momo may have been a hoax, but her impact was real. The image of her bulging eyes and wide smile is still burned into the back of my skull. And when I’m trying to fall asleep at night, and I open my eyes to the dark corner of my room, she’s the figure I imagine standing there…waiting for my eyes to close again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to you by our intern, Lauren Yoon. We’ll have more on Momo in our further reading, but before you hit that link, consider this your jumpscare warning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Anyway, I have one more story for you. It starts with an eBay listing for an antique wine cabinet with strict warnings to never open it, lest you unleash misfortune upon anyone who comes in contact with the box. But the real horror story here is disappointingly mundane. Let’s open one last tab. The haunted doll scam market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One of the most infamous haunted objects was actually sold on eBay. In 2003, Kevin Mannis listed an antique wine cabinet with an unusually detailed description. He had picked it up at an estate sale, and the woman who sold it to him said it belonged to her grandmother, a Holocaust survivor. Her grandmother had been insistent that her family never, ever open the box. She said it contained a spirit called a dybbuk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Did Kevin heed the warning? No. He brought it back to his workshop and opened it right up — ignoring the creepy locks of hair and carved Hebrew prayers inside. A series of tragedies followed. His mother had a stroke when she opened the box. His siblings complained of terrifying nightmares. Someone who knocked the box off a shelf died by suicide the same day. Kevin himself started having visions of a demonic old woman with sunken eyes. He recounted the story in his eBay listing, which ended with, “Help me.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The box was bought and resold several times over the next decade. Owners complained of hair falling out in clumps, bleeding from the eyes, waking up choking, and dreams of the creepy old woman. The box finally found a permanent home in a museum for haunted objects, sealed behind layers of protective glass. It even inspired the 2012 movie, The Possession. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then, five years ago, Kevin admitted that it was all fake. He made up everything in the original listing. There are no dybbuk boxes in Jewish folklore. The malicious spirits attached to people, not objects. The people who bought the box after Kevin sold it maintained that their hauntings really happened. But as far as Kevin was concerned, the whole eBay thing was a creative writing exercise that spiraled out of control. But today, haunted objects are a hot commodity. And one object, in particular, has become incredibly popular in the secondhand haunted market: dolls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> EBay, Etsy, they’re all over the place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Taylor, a TikTok creator and YouTuber, also known as Paranormal Teej. She’s a paranormal investigator and haunted doll caretaker. She called me from a room packed with dolls. Can you describe the room you’re in? Like what’s around you? What are the stories behind all that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yes. So in this room, we have about 120 haunted dolls. They come from all around the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor keeps them lined up on shelves. Some are porcelain collector’s dolls, dressed in frilly skirts. Others are soft rag dolls, clearly pre-loved by some young child. And while we talked, I swear I could feel them gazing back at me through the screen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They keep me on my toes. I work with a lot of, like, trickster spirits. I am very interested in working with, like, spirits with kind of wacky, wild personalities. They are a riot. We adore them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She introduced me to a few of them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So first one I’m going to point out is Jeremiah. If I don’t point him out to you, he will mess with our recordings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jeremiah is this big soft bear, wearing a striped t-shirt. His plush legs dangle off the shelf, like a little kid’s would. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> He is a six and a half year old little boy. The half is very important to him. Six is not acceptable. He moves, he moves things, um, especially lollipops. That’s, like, kind of his gig. He loves green things. Um, everything he wants has to be green. So he has moved like lollie pops around our house, threw them down the stairs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed out another doll. She has a cherubic face and stark black pigtails, and she’s besties with Jeremiah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So Hoshiko is five. She’s from Japan. She’ll cause you to have, like, visions like in mirrors and things and she’ll like pop up. So I get the Samara from The Ring in the mirror trick every once in a while. Then she thinks it’s so funny because she likes, like, the reaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And lastly, Taylor points out Ciel. He’s in a black, pointed hat. Like a little witch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And he is very wise, very gifted. He has given me dreams about things happening a year before they happen and then they come true. And he’s just kind of, he’s my guy. So yeah, those are my, my buddies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> You may be skeptical of all this — but there were a couple of inexplicable incidents in the calls I had with Taylor. At some points, the entire video platform that we used flickered — not someone’s webcam, but the whole site. After the interview, our producer, Maya, said she heard low growling coming from Taylor’s side. When Taylor talked about her doll’s antics, I thought I heard faint giggling in the background. And there were chunks of our interview that our transcription software could not figure out. Instead, it spat out a jumble of German, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Brazilian, Portuguese, French, Danish, Korean, and a splash of Telugu. Was that Jeremiah messing with us? Although Maya and I were a little freaked out, Taylor seemed unfazed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Everybody asks, like, “How are you safe living in a house with 120 haunted dolls? How are, how were you safe?” And the honest answer is like, they, they respect me because I respect them. I’m just nice to them. Like that’s really all it takes is just like basic kindness. Um, and I think that makes the paranormal a lot less scary when you realize that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ghosts and the paranormal have been part of Taylor’s life for as long as she could remember. Her mother is a professional psychic. Her aunt is a paranormal investigator. Her grandmother would pull out the Ouija board whenever Taylor stayed over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> My whole dad’s side of the family, even the ones who don’t want to or want anything to do with the paranormal, see ghosts for whatever reason. And so I just, I kind of grew up in this environment where, like, ghosts aren’t scary. They’re just like a thing, you know, like it’s just a fact of life, kind of attitude about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor and her husband bonded over the paranormal and fell in love with doll collecting together. They consider themselves spirit keepers — almost like afterlife caretakers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Some spirits legitimately did own their vessel when they were alive. They were attached to it in life and they’re still attached to, you know, like we have spirits whose vessel was like their comfort item as a kid kind of thing. I do have cases where it was like a spirit who was haunting a location and like the location was getting torn down and they were scared because they didn’t know what would happen to them if the location disappeared. They didn’t know if they would disappear, too. So they kind of found a different way out of necessity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Actually confirming a haunting can take months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> A lot of spirits will be very quiet and you will have no activity and then six months in at random, they’ll just kind of like pop off and because they’re comfortable with you now. The paranormal field is not a science, right? We don’t have a textbook that says, “This is how you investigate an object. This is how you investigate a location.” And so for us, what our method looks like — because that evidence component is really important to me — I do not feel comfortable saying something is haunted unless I know 100%. If I am 99% sure, I won’t even say, “Yes.” I have to be 100% sure. The other thing about paranormal activity is it’s not predictable. There is zero predictability. You can’t say turn the lights off and they turn the lights off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to investigate whether a doll is haunted, Taylor first considers what she calls “subjective observations.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Anything from, I saw that doll move to — I saw a ghost in my house to — I heard footsteps or I got a dream from — about this doll, but for me subjective reports are not enough for me to confirm something is haunted because the brain does crazy things. When people are scared and they are around something that they’re suspecting, the brain can do really crazy things to, you know, trick us. You have things like pareidolia, which is, we see faces in things. And so, people can take that as paranormal, but it’s really just your brain playing tricks on you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So she tries to collect data: fluctuations in air temperature and air pressure, whether motion sensors are activated, and audio and video recordings. She looks for anomalies that she can document and compare against a control. And lastly, Taylor tries to make contact with whatever might be haunting the doll. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So everybody communicates with spirit slightly differently. For me, the way that works best for me personally is a spirit box. What a spirit box is, is essentially, it is an intentionally broken radio, okay? So basically it rapidly sweeps through radio stations and they can manipulate the radio signals to be able to communicate with you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She often posts spirit box sessions with her dolls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So that’s something you’re still trying to understand about 2026? The men awful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did you hear, “The men awful?” Or did you hear a jumble of static? Skeptics say the audio fragments that are picked up by spirit boxes are random and that it’s confirmation bias and pareidolia that leads investigators to find meaning in the sounds. Taylor, however, says it’s more reliable than other methods. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> There are other tools like Pendulum and Ouija Board, for example, and those things your hands are involved. And for me, like my hands being involved in something, it doesn’t feel like quite as valid of evidence to me. So I really like Spirit Box because my hands are not involved in that. I can’t control what comes out of that box. I have no involvement in that so I like the personal removal from it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the investigation is a bust. Taylor told me about this time her friends thought she bought a haunted doll. So she brought it over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Pulled out a spirit box and I’m like, “Hey, like if anybody’s there, like can we talk?” And I got nothing for a long time. You know, I’m like, “Maybe they’re shy.” So I keep asking questions. Nothing is happening. I’m like, “Okay.” Not even like a little bit — not even like a hesitation — nothing. And I’m looking at my friend and I am like, “We’re not getting anything.” And then the spirit box starts talking. And I am thinking, “Oh, maybe they finally decided to show up.” No. Um, it’s Omi, who’s down here in the blue, she’s hilarious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed to a doll behind her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And she comes on and she’s like, “There’s nothing there.” And I’m like, “It’s not haunted, is it?” And she’s, like, “No.” And I’m like, “Thanks!” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Here’s the tea: the paranormal makes for really good content. This was a very niche hobby until a few years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So, in my opinion, I think the COVID pandemic just shot haunted doll sales up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is around the same time “witchtok” took off — the corner of TikTok dedicated to modern witchcraft. Videos of spell jar recipes, algorithmically recommended tarot readings, and ghost hunting all overlapped with the same audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And I think that is largely due to the fact that people were home and they were bored out of their mind and they were looking for something to do. And I think a lot of people were also doom scrolling at that time. Everybody was sitting on TikTok and YouTube all day long watching videos and so people had haunted dolls or making more videos about their haunted dolls than usual because they’re at home all day with them and it was just a perfect storm for like a lot more people who like were not involved in the paranormal or anything to just kind of like decide to try something different. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The more sensational the paranormal content, the better it did online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And one of the party tricks that I see a lot is with EMF meters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These are handheld devices that detect and measure electromagnetic activity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They are not ghost metal detectors. Everybody just sees the EMF spike and they assume, “Oh, that’s a ghost,” but they don’t think about all of the other things that set off an EMF meter. Well, we’re in 2026. We have smartwatches that are setting off EMF meters, Wi-Fi, your cell phone — those things are set off by any form of electricity and all of our houses and all these locations are full of electricity, right? But a lot of people will, you know, share proof that their doll is haunted by essentially putting their phone right up to a doll that has an EMF meter on its lap and the EMF is going off and it’s hitting red and everybody’s forgetting that the phone that they’re filming that video on is what is triggering it. So when I see an account where the whole page is just EMF up to a cell phone and nothing else, I’m suspicious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> By becoming so trendy, Taylor says the paranormal community has become less about making contact with the other side and more about making content out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I think it’s social media and it’s not just haunted dolls, it’s the whole overall paranormal community. You know, the people that are into the paranormal will chase it to the end of the earth. I mean, some of these locations will charge you, you know, hundreds, thousands of dollars to go investigate there for the night. It’s extremely lucrative. Investigators are seeking evidence. They are interested, obviously. But there’s also, I think, the social media pressure. Content creators, especially, it’s like they, you know, want to — to get content out and they want to keep going so they have to go to more haunted locations and you know, have to have more experiences, because they’re sharing the experiences with the public and people are expecting to see it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And as this genre of content took off, the market for haunted objects suddenly became very lucrative. EBay, Etsy, and Facebook Marketplace technically do allow for sales of haunted or occult objects, as long as the listing includes a disclaimer that it’s for entertainment purposes only. But that disclaimer also means that you can get away with anything. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> People want to have a paranormal experience. People are interested in that now. It didn’t used to be. Everybody didn’t wanna have a paranormal experience before, but now it’s like, people are chasing an experience. So people have learned — there are people who will pay anything to get to have this happen. I think that people have caught on to that. It’s trendy right now, it’s in right now and everybody’s looking for a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so, people have learned like, okay, before I could go to like, buy one of those empty storage lockers and I could sell everything for $10 a piece, whatever, but if the haunted doll people pay 200 bucks for that, that’s what I’m going to charge. Um, and the fact of the matter is, when people buy it, people will sell it because there’s a demand for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like the dybbuk box that duped countless people 20 years ago, many of these listings have elaborate descriptions recounting tales of supernatural, otherworldly encounters. And dolls, especially, can go for way more than what they’re typically worth if they’re labeled “haunted.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I mean, I’ve seen in the thousands, multiple times. I always tell people the higher the price doesn’t mean that it’s more haunted than the ones that are a lower price. Like, a spirit is a spirit. There’s no such thing as like, this spirit is more spirity than this other spirit. My rule of thumb that I always tell people is like, “You can’t put a price on the paranormal,” right? Paranormal experiences are not guaranteed. Paranormal experiences are not scientific fact. So for me, ethically, I believe that the object should be priced similarly to the price that their vessel or their doll is worth. So if you have a doll that is like a collector’s item and worth $300 — yeah, list it for $300. If you have a doll that’s worth $50, list it for $50. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The dybbuk box eBay listing was such a novelty at the time. Now, haunted doll listings are a dime a dozen. On eBay today, I scrolled through listings for haunted dolls, haunted clip-on earrings, haunted keys, haunted cargo pants, haunted labubus and — not joking — a quote, haunted by curious dybbuk box. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I am not cut out for the haunted doll life, but if you were to buy one, how are you supposed to sift through all the haunted scams? Taylor actually makes haunted doll guides and recently started focusing more on creating seller checklists so her followers can vet listings for themselves. She’s wary of any seller that makes content of EMF readings. She’s also suspicious of large-scale listings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> You go on their page and they have a hundred Haunted Dolls listed and nearly all of them have the same story. I mean, spirits are — they’re people and every person is different. So how do you have a 100 spirits who all are the same person basically with a different name and like slightly changed details? So that’s a red flag. The other thing is if the facts don’t line up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So I have seen — this happens a lot. This is a big one. The story will say, “Oh, this doll is haunted by so-and-so and so-and-so owned this doll when they were alive and it was very meaningful to them, so they chose to keep it with them in the afterlife.” And you source the year on the vessel, and the vessel — the doll itself — was made in 1980. It says that the spirit is from the 1800s. That’s impossible. They couldn’t have owned the doll in the 1800s when the doll was made in the 1980s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok is full of complaints and warnings of haunted scams. This is especially frustrating to Taylor, who really sees spirit keeping as a lifelong commitment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Seeing people repeatedly getting things that are fake. One, obviously it’s a waste of money. I mean, obviously that’s irritating. Financial scamming is no joke and pisses me off. But it goes beyond that into, you know, those are people that could give an actual spirit a really nice place to live. And getting scammed over and over again chases them away from this hobby. I may be able to change, you know, the quality of afterlife for the spirits in my home. I can help a finite number of spirits, but I can help a lot more spirits if I can teach other people to do what I’m doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m still not sure what my relationship to the paranormal is. I want objective evidence. Data. A clear, unequivocal answer that explains why things are the way that they are. But throughout the interview, I kept catching glimpses of Jeremiah over Taylor’s shoulder with his fluffy teddy bear ears and little legs dangling over the edge of the shelf. And when Taylor talked about taking care of spirits in the afterlife, I swear, I saw him perk up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That’s it for Close All Tabs’ special spooky storytime. We’ll have a fresh deep dive for you next week, but if you’re dying to open more tabs about the tales we told today, check out the episode description for some suggested reading. Or stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. It was engineered by Brendan Willard and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production support by Cayla Mihalovich. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Special thanks to Hallie Tut, Ted Hegemann, Craig Groshek, Rena Lee, and Paranormal Teej for sharing their stories with us. This episode includes clips and archive tape from Hallie Tut, Eli Unique, Paranomal Teej, and Villains Wiki.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Apple Maker Hi-75 keyboard with Foggered in Red Samurai keycaps and Gator on Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So when it comes to buying and selling, they don’t really care about the concept of it. Their primary focus is always like, “Am I going somewhere where somebody is going to be nice to me or not?” That’s what they care about — is like, “Am I going to a good home?” But the one thing I know they don’t like is the shipping. They don’t like shipping. I hear complaints about shipping all the time. So. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, yeah, you can’t, you, can’t yeah, kind of out of your control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I’m like, “Sorry.” \u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "behind-the-viral-nun-podcast",
"title": "“Sister, yesss!” What’s Behind the Viral Nun Podcast?",
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"content": "\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This year’s internet breakout star was an order of Catholic sisters with a podcast. Within weeks of launching, Dominican Sisters Open Mic went mega viral. Clips and fan edits of host Sister Miriam saying “Sister, yesss!” spread across social media. Secular women’s magazines and Catholic media alike dubbed this year a “nun girl summer.” At the same time, some have criticized the order behind the podcast for the conservative ideology baked into its educational content. In this episode, we explore how the Dominican Sisters of Mary rose to viral fame, the beliefs behind their easy charm and infectious laughter, and what it all says about the cultural moment we’re in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests: \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Paul Dailey, director of marketing at Openlight Media\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cara.georgetown.edu/sr-thu-t-do-lhc-phd\">Sister Thu T. Do\u003c/a>, Sister of the Lovers of the Holy Cross of Hanoi and Research Associate at the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, Georgetown University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://triciabruce.com/\">Dr. Tricia Bruce\u003c/a>, Sociology of Religion and Director of Social Science Research, Institute for Advanced Catholic Studies\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://matthewremski.com/wordpress/\">Matthew Remski\u003c/a>, religion and politics journalist, co-host of Conspirituality and author of \u003cem>Antifascist Dad: Urgent Conversations with Young People in Chaotic Times\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/28/style/nuns-podcast-ultimate-frisbee-tiktok.html\">Don’t Call Them Nuns. They’re Podcasters.\u003c/a> — Madison Malone Kircher, \u003cem>NYT\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/2026/08/dominican-sisters-podcast/688395/\">Why Are So Many People Listening to a Podcast About Living in a Convent?\u003c/a> — Luis Parrales, \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a71668183/tiktok-nuns/\">The TikTok Nuns Have Everyone in a Chokehold\u003c/a> — Christen A. Johnson, \u003cem>Cosmopolitan\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nun-girl-summer-rules_uk_6a55fbfee4b0ac1765ef704f\">The Next Hot Trend Might Just Be ‘Nun Girl Summer’\u003c/a> — Amy Glover, \u003cem>Huffington Post\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, tell your frenemies, stir up some drama and while you’re at it, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year’s internet breakout star was not a family vlogger, or a fashion influencer, or a Hype House type creator collective, but an order of Catholic nuns with a podcast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister 1: Mary is so uncomplicated and we are.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister 2: Sister, yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Dominican Sisters Open Mic, a podcast from the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist. They’re an order based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Within weeks of launching their podcast, they went mega viral. I personally cannot stop saying, Sister, yessss, whenever I agree with a friend’s take. Just like the host Sister Miriam does in this iconic clip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: Cooking\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, yes!\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: I love cooking!\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, teach me your ways!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That phrase is the internet earworm of the year. It has its own fan edits. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok User@whsprtz]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: Cooking.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And fan reenactments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @whoismikecentanni]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Person 1: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>Person 2: Cooking.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>Person 1: Sister, Yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, they technically aren’t nuns, since they aren’t cloistered in a convent. Here’s Sister Louise Marie explaining it in another viral clip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Louise Marie: We go out and teach, so we’re not just remaining in the convent and so we’re called Sister.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But still, both secular women’s magazines and Catholic media alike dubbed this year a nun-girl summer, undoubtedly thanks to the popularity of these religious sisters. One commenter claimed, “They sound like a healed, regulated nervous system.” Others pointed out how the clips of these joyful and relaxed sisters are conspicuously devoid of men. But, at its core their popularity seems to stem from the fact that so many people online yearn for the life these sisters portray in their podcast clips. They talk about cooking dinner for each other. They play ultimate frisbee together. They’re always supporting their fellow sisters and complimenting each other’s virtues. Who wouldn’t want a joyful communal living experience like that? But the full story isn’t so simple. Their virality comes at a really unique moment for both secular culture and the Catholic Church. Under that shiny, wholesome exterior, some critics have questioned the political motivations of the Sisters’ religious order. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@antifascistdad]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Matthew Remski: Whenever I’m charmed, I try to see what the catch is, and so I went beyond the clips to see what they’re doing politically. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, who are the Dominican Sisters of Mary? Why is everyone obsessed with them? Today, we’re looking at how they rose to viral fame, what that says about the cultural moment we’re in, and what some critics see behind their infectious laughter. Ready? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> As usual, let’s open a new tab. Who are the Dominican Sisters of Mary? To understand the sisters, we have to understand charisms. In Catholicism, a charism is a divine spiritual gift given by God so that a person can serve others and the church. It’s the driving force behind their mission, and Catholic orders are often organized around them. Some are focused on running community hospitals. Others are focused missionary outreach. And many, like the Dominican Sisters, work in education. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> So, Dominican sisters follow the Dominican charism, which was established by Saint Dominic. And Dominicans place a lot of emphasis on virtue and virtue. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Paul Dailey, the Director of Marketing for Open Light Media, the communications arm for the order. It’s the media company that produces the Sisters’ podcast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They are supposed to be teachers and preachers spreading the word of God, how to teach future generations how to live a virtuous life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This specific order behind Open Light Media—the Dominican Sisters of Mary, mother of the Eucharist—is actually relatively young for a Catholic order. Their mission began in July 1996, when Pope John Paul II called for sisters and priests to be more present in local communities. So four Dominican Sisters from Nashville started looking for a place to establish a new order. Dailey says their origins can be traced back to pizza. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> I think it was Sister Joseph Andrew who saw a USA Today article. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They were visiting friends in Chicago when, stopping for gas, she saw a photo of Tom Monaghan, the founder of Domino’s Pizza. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> She said, we should just go talk to him because he certainly seems like he would have maybe some money to help us establish an order. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Monaghan was a devout Catholic and already deeply involved in Catholic philanthropy. One of the sisters actually knew him through a Catholic business network that he founded. The sisters were enroute to New York, and the Domino’s headquarters were on the way. So they decided to stop by and say hello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And so they just went and without really scheduling a call or anything, walked into his office and ended up meeting with Tom Monaghan, the CEO of Domino’s Pizza. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And he was interested in establishing some Catholic schools in his hometown of Ann Arbor, Michigan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And who better to run your Catholic schools than a bunch of Dominican Sisters. So that was how it ended up in Ann Arbor, and it’s grown to, I believe we’re at over 140 sisters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Daly says that while their mission has remained consistent over the years, how they approach it has evolved. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> Their goal is to preach in the town square, right? And today, it’s not like you have a physical town square that you go to and everybody’s there listening to what’s going on. The internet has really become the town square. It’s not too often you see a religious sister pop up on TikTok, but that’s the whole point is you’re not supposed to just talk to people who believe the same things as you. You’re supposed to go out there into the public square and talk to everybody. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which is why they saw an opportunity to spread their religious message through a podcast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Maria: I wonder if Mary, she would ever mess with Jesus when he was little, you know, like joke around? Come on, she had to. Every mother does. Like she’d go, where did Messiah go? There he is! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: My all time favorite, this is an outdoor game, but in the summers when we’re all home together is playing ultimate frisbee.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister and you are so good at that. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: I heard of one sister for Lent, she tried to drive the speed limit like the whole time.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: So she gave up speeding? \u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: Yeah, she gave up speeding. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We weren’t able to sit down with any of the Dominican Sisters of Mary, but we did talk to Sister Thu Do, a research associate for the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University, CARA for short. Sister Thu theorizes that the reason the podcast is so popular is because it shatters stereotypes people have about religious sisterhood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> Popular culture, uh, has painted religious life as like somber or rigid, uh, for far too long. So by projecting authentic joy, the sisters show single women that giving your life to God doesn’t mean losing your personality or joy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And it offers an alternative vision to the isolation many people feel today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> Showing the beauty of community living makes the vocation feel human, touchable and, of course, deeply attractive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The podcast launched in February this year, and within a couple of weeks, the first viral clip took off. Back in June, Cosmopolitan reported that Dominican Sisters Open Mic listenership is up 3500% since launch, according to Spotify. Millennials and Gen Z make up 84% of the podcast’s audience on the platform. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> This has been a total shock. Sister Miriam always jokes. She said, “when we first started, I told myself, at least my mom will watch this.” She really did not know if anybody was gonna be interested. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But as it turns out, everyone loves these sisters. I mean, the diva edits speak for themselves. These are the fan-made videos remixing clips from the podcast with sick beats and sparkly filters. Fans usually make these edits for pop stars, but in this case, it’s Catholic Sisters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@enzoiio]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>[music] Do you have a hobby? Cooking. Sister, yesss! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They’re so authentically kind and they make you feel like you’re the only person in the whole world even though you know that they interact with like hundreds or thousands of people and yet they’ll still remember fun facts about you. And that just speaks to who they are and the way that they live. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> I think it really captured the imagination of folks who suddenly see these women laughing and saw them as very human and relatable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Dr. Trisha Bruce, a sociologist of religion who studies Catholicism and social change. She pointed out that the average age of religious sisters in the U.S. is around 80 years old. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> This group is not like that. These are younger women. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The sisters interviewed on the podcast are typically in their 30s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> These are women who were thinking about the here and now and the future. They’re influencers, but they don’t live a life or act like influencers other than having the influence that they have. So there are all sorts of contradictions and unique things about them that I think really spark curiosity and attention and intrigue. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> According to Dr. Bruce, it’s also… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Showcasing a different story for what religion is or also for how, in this case, younger women for whom this is a deeply meaningful experience. So I think they show something in a bright light that has otherwise been fairly treated with skepticism and uncertainty for so many years, given all of the trouble, of course, that religion has been in, too, in different ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Women have always been part of the Catholic media landscape, from developing programming to managing communications to helping write and distribute diocese newspapers. Back in 1981, Mother Angelica established the Catholic Media Empire by launching EWTN, which turned into a global religious broadcasting network. She herself appeared in broadcasts, answering questions and giving advice from her rocking chair. Her show was revolutionary because it was so casual. The vibe wasn’t that different from what the Dominican Sisters are doing with their podcasts today. Mother Angelica was so influential that she herself has gotten the diva edit TikTok treatment, years after her passing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from TikTok user @giramoficiall]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Mother Angelica: I’ve always said, God was very, very good to some man when he gave me a religious vocation. [laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Mother Angelica was an outlier. Dr. Bruce says that historically, men were front and center in Catholic media. They were the voices of the church, speaking on Catholic radio, writing Catholic op-eds, and appearing on Catholic television broadcasts. Today, media has evolved, drastically. The great shift to digital has given others a chance to share their voices too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> And I think we’re seeing here an example of a group of religious sisters who has very wisely seen, ah, there’s a gap, there is an opening. The people are here, the messaging is over here. So we need to take the message and put it into these new spaces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Dominican Sisters have actually been working on their media presence for years. The podcast is just the latest in several efforts they’ve made to spread their message and fundraise, using the media to their advantage, like going on the Oprah Winfrey Show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Oprah correspondent Lisa Ling: Why did you want to pursue this life? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is a clip from their first appearance on Oprah in 2010. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister: God wanted me here, and he made it very clear to me.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lisa Ling: How do you know? Like, do you hear a voice?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister: It’s right here.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Five years after that appearance, Oprah aired an update and interviewed the Dominican Sisters of Mary. Some of them were actually viewers. They said they were inspired to answer the call after watching that first segment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister: Now we’re known as the Oprah nuns, so if you put into Google or any search engine the Oprah Nuns, we will come right up. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Obviously, virality is not a Catholic charism. The Dominican Sisters’ ultimate mission goes beyond getting on Oprah or building a TikTok following. They’re really focused on education and they’ve been incredibly digitally adept in that field too. They run Open Light Media, a subscription platform of Catholic educational content. And this is where things start to get complicated. Matthew Remski was also taken by the Sisters’ easy charm and joyful conversations. But as a cradle Catholic and writer who reports on religion and authoritarian extremism, he had to dig deeper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I think they really offer a fantastic package, and then they also hide what they believe too, and they have to, because if you really scratch the surface on what fairly conservative Catholic nuns believe, it’s not going to be appealing to a lot of the women that are actually really thrilled by contemplating this communal life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what isn’t reflected in the podcast clips going viral on TikTok? After the break, we’re driving into open light media and some of the ideology baked into its educational content. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. When we’re back, we are getting into the politics behind the clips. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab. What do the Dominican Sisters believe? While the sisters have definitely gotten a lot of attention for their viral success, others are looking beyond the charm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@antifascistdad]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Matthew Remski: Now the press coverage has focused on the vibes without a single question raised about their politics. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Matthew Remski again, a researcher and writer who reports on authoritarian extremism, spiritual influence, and religion. He’s critiqued the sisters on his own show, the Conspirituality Podcast, and on TikTok. He, too, grew up Catholic, in a very particular school of Catholic thought. That experience shaped his viewpoint on organized religion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> There’s a pugnacious part of me that says, yeah, I’m absolutely still Catholic, but I’m the kind of Catholic that I learned how to be initially when I was introduced to the church through liberation theology back in the 1970s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Liberation theology is a religious movement. It emphasizes not just serving the poor, but also dismantling social injustice and economic inequality. It’s a very political approach to religion. It actually originated in Latin American Marxist movements. And this is important, because this is central to Matthew’s criticism of Dominican Sisters Open Mic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I think that they’ve done an incredible job at providing people, women especially, younger women especially with a vision of, you know, productivity and communal life and shared purpose in the world that is also, you now, about shared resources. And I think they really put together an attractive vision of an alternative to the precarious. Uh, an alternative to, um, you know, Instagram and tech talk life. I also knew at the same time that they were, uh, concealing what they’re really about, uh in a particular way that, that I wanted to make clear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Because while the sisters talk about playing frisbee and cooking and the joys of communal living for a higher purpose, Matthew has qualms about the ideology of the Catholic order they serve under. Chief among his concerns is Open Light Media, the media company that produces their podcast. The podcast is actually just a side project. Open Light’s main focus is producing educational content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> If you look at their product page, that is their main output, right? They sell these courses to Catholic educators and homeschoolers. It is an anti-public education, anti-secular industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Open Light Media produces a faith-based Catholic alternative to something called social emotional learning. Social emotional learning is an educational framework that revolves around teaching children relationship building skills, responsible decision making, and emotional regulation. This method has been widely adopted by American public schools, many of which implement classroom-wide life skill lessons and daily check-ins, as well as individualized behavioral support for students who need it. There’s a lot of focus on identifying feelings, empathy for others, and affirmation, which has been criticized by some conservatives, including many Catholic organizations, who say \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> Look, you know, all of this touchy-feely, no-God-centered, secular, psychological stuff that you guys are doing with kids are really leaving them unanchored. They’re leading kids astray. They are not giving them a grounding of the truth of the gospel, which is that there are two genders or, you can’t really change your sex or whatever, or that it’s not really natural to be queer. If you’re going to be a queer, you can’t really act on it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They actually addressed this in the very first episode of Dominican Sisters Open Mic, when one sister interviewed Catholic psychologists about the dangers of secular education. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: I think Tik Tok was essentially responsible for this kind of transgender movement.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Brett Salkeld: Right.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: And creating a generation that had been manipulated\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Brett Salkeld: Right\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: to think about gender in this very relative way. We’re just leaving them in this state of confusion because they’ve been manipulated in this way.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Brett Salkeld: Right. And then, and then when we put them in this state, and then we affirm. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of affirmation culture, as one of the podcast guests put it, Open Light’s educational programs focus on virtues and faith. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski:\u003c/strong> Which they believe should replace the secular version of social-emotional learning in public schools because they believe that social- emotional learning in public school is the kind of thing that just allows kids to explore themselves in a way that might make them understand that they’re trans. Like they’re using a kind of quasi-intellectual take on an educational practice to try to persuade people that in order to be a well-rounded teacher who nurtures well-rounded children, you really have to give them a kind of social-emotional context that’s based in God. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Of course, this conservative religious ideology isn’t obvious from the clips going viral on TikTok. As Matthew noted, the podcast didn’t blow up until Sister Miriam took the reins as host, and they pivoted from lengthy discussions on Catholic education to one-on-one interviews with other sisters about their own lives. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Andre: Some people like to play scripture roulette, right? Do the, like, flip through the Bible and like finger point. I mean, that’s one way. Actually, sometimes God has really spoken to me in that way. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some people on ex-Catholic forums on Reddit have questioned the authenticity of the sisters’ joy. Commenters have speculated that they’re under pressure to come off as fun and that the podcast is just propaganda. And while Matthew agrees that the clips are propaganda for the Catholic Church, he doesn’t agree with all of the detractors’ assumptions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I don’t want to dismiss them personally because they seem like really lovely people who, you know, I would love to hang out with. And I don’t t get any sense that anybody is trying to be deceptive or anybody is trying to be, you know, manipulative and recruiting. I think they are really presenting their best lives and I don t know how conscious they are of, you know, concealing the ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But what does bother him is that this portrayal of Catholicism is what consistently goes viral, a palatable version that isn’t upfront about a belief system that younger viewers on social media might find far less appealing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> And while they’re doing that, they are not, to my knowledge, engaging in any of the social justice work that generations of prior religious women in the United States have been engaged in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Religious sisters have taken on different types of social justice work throughout modern American history. In 1965, a group of Catholic sisters marched with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in Selma, Alabama to support voting rights for all. During the peak of the AIDS epidemic, Catholic sisters in Oakland fought to build affordable housing for patients who needed live-in medical care. In 2012, sisters known as the Nuns on the Bus traveled across the country in protest of federal budget cuts that would have affected vulnerable, low-income Americans. And more recently, religious sisters have been fighting ICE deportation efforts across the country, funding passports for children who’ve been separated from their deported parents. And organizing demonstrations outside of ICE detention centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> This is the liberation theology legacy that exists within Catholic religious life, which has now become a kind of minority demographic and now which is being outshadowed by the high production values of, you know, convents and monastic communities that have better social media skills and, you now, may well be supported by conservative Catholics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that glitzy, polished Catholic media costs money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> You need support for that. You need cultural support for that. And we also know that, you know, especially in the United States, wealthy Catholics are responsible for supporting all kinds of politicized reactionary religious efforts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We asked Paul Daly, Open Light Media’s Director of Marketing, about some of the critiques of the organization’s ideology. He wasn’t surprised. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> I mean, no matter what, if you’re going into the public space in any way, there’s going to be critiques, right? If somebody disagrees with something that the sisters say, the whole point is that the sisters are not saying necessarily that you have to agree with them in order to still listen to them. And keep in mind, a majority of these sisters are teachers. And so, they’re out throughout the country working at different schools. And of course, they work at Catholic schools, but you don’t have to be Catholic to go to Catholic school. So, they have tons of students, you know, who have different viewpoints. And so, they’re very used to interacting with people who disagree with them, even dislike them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But he did acknowledge that religious sisterhood is deeper than what viewers see in short vertical video clips. Committing to religious life is far from an easy choice. And for many, it comes with great personal sacrifice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They are joyful and happy and you know, but we also don’t want to, you know, sell short just how hard they work. Cause it really is definitely not just hanging out playing frisbee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We followed up with Paul after our interview, giving him another opportunity to respond to critiques of Open Light Media and asking him whether the Dominican Sisters of Mary have engaged in any type of social justice work. We didn’t hear back though. So what does the sisters’ virality say about religious life in the U.S. though? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s a new tab. What is “nun girl summer” really about? While the Dominican Sisters of Mary kicked off “nun girl summer” earlier this year, Catholic influence appears to have made waves in pop culture across America, both on and offline. Convents in New York are reporting long waitlists for prayer retreats. Birkenstock rolled out these stop-motion ads this summer, featuring nuns doing hopscotch in slides. Catholic Kitsch has made a comeback. Cutesy, nostalgic, novelty prayer candles and glittery Jesus statues are prime meme material. In other words, Catholicism is really up right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> My mom, a baby boomer, she grew up in a very Catholic world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Tricia Bruce again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> And I think for a lot of Catholics who grew up in that world, your neighborhood was Catholic. You called your neighborhood by the name of your parish. Oftentimes, this was very intertwined with ethnic identity. religion, Catholicism was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Fast forward, and religious life in the US looks very different now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Many kids today, of course, are being raised in non-religious households, non- religious families. So. Religion is less of a forefront reality in home, in the neighborhood, in the broader culture. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If organized religion is no longer mainstream, then… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> It makes it feel countercultural. It makes that look different. It makes it feels intriguing and mysterious or maybe even a way to connect to something bigger than oneself in a world that feels so isolating and lonely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Think about the vintage marketplace today. For some, their grail is a 90s-era purse that someone’s grandma probably has in her closet. For others, it’s a mid-century table lamp that was once common in every university library. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> They’re a treasure to one generation. They get thrown out as trash to the next. And then suddenly, another generation looks around and is like, oh, this is super cool. There’s something here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’re trying to dig around for something authentic and real. And in that, there becomes… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> An opening there for an intrigue around religion that I think is likewise helping to give Catholicism this kind of moment. It is certainly an invitation to learn more and for some to take action. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Bruce says that people have been distrustful and skeptical of religion and religious institutions for valid reasons. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Because, of course, you have instances of abuse or discrimination or inauthenticity that have really been a reckoning for many institutions. And I think now the religion and other institutions are undergoing a massive project to rebuild trust and people talk about looking for authenticity. And so I think the podcast by these Dominican sisters is in some ways a reflection of authenticity or a desire to showcase a more transparent experience and message around religion and a re-invitation to see as trustworthy, something like religion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sister Thu agrees. In her research at CARA at Georgetown, she’s found that Millennials and Gen Z are reporting historic levels of isolation and anxiety. The Dominican Sisters podcast emerged in the midst of that cold. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> It is responding directly to a hunger for belonging and meaning, especially among the younger generations, as they always search for meaning and real connection. We are seeing a remarkable spiritual surge. Dioceses and campus ministries across the country reported significant surges in baptisms and new candidates last Easter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She says that what the sisters are doing with their podcast is really in line with what the whole universal Catholic Church is doing. CARA reports that adults 18 to 35 spend hours online searching for connection, so it makes sense to reach them where they’re at. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> And that is the digital evangelization tool in the modern town square, which today happens to be TikTok and YouTube feeds. Right, so by showing up in these digital spaces, the sisters fulfill their religious mandate to meet believers, you know, seekers and non-believers alike where they already spend their time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Is it actually bringing anyone into religious sisterhood though? Well, it takes a really long time to become a sister. It’s a years long process. But while it’s too early to tell if podcast listeners will be inspired to join the Catholic order, like Oprah viewers were 16 years ago, there is a lot of interest in it. Paul from Open Light Media said that after going viral, the Dominican sisters have seen an uptick in young women reaching out for discernment. That’s a process of examining whether it’s God’s will to do something, like becoming a nun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And there’s actually a link specifically for that because we saw that happening on our link tree. The process of becoming a sister is very drawn out. It takes years to become a fully professed sister. I anticipate that 10, 15 years down the line, we will probably have a handful of sisters who first heard about the order from the podcast. I really do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Matthew Remski urges people to look beyond the viral clips, the fan edits, and the esthetic mood boards, to really investigate what religious sisterhood means and what the organization, the viral content is coming from, stands for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> Religious life is punk rock. There’s something really cool about it. And let’s just be clear about what it all entails, right? I would say that what they are showing is the delight they have in communal life. And they’re not showing what the ideological price is for that. Like, I think most people will watch the clip about Ultimate Frisbee or any other activity that they have or like Bingo Night or Games Night or whatever they’re talking about, they’re talking how much fun they have together. And that’s really wonderful and heartwarming. But I think that when you understand that, oh, they actually have a straightforward Catholic ideology that’s driving their faith and their intellectual output and you learn what that ideology teaches and you learned that it’s exclusionary, the conviviality, the thing that people are attracted to, I just wanna say it comes at a price and you gotta know what the price is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This doesn’t mean that you can’t watch the sisters’ content or find solace in their joy. Will I stop saying, ‘sister, yes’ every time I agree with my literal sister? No. But it is worth considering where the content on your feed really comes from and digging deeper beyond viral clips, even if their laughter is infectious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>[Laughter] Sister, yes! [laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> With that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon, additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode includes clips from Open Light Media and Matthew Remske, AKA Anti-Fascist Dad, and the Oprah Winfrey Show. It also includes clips from the TikTok accounts @Whsprtz, @whoismikecentanni, @Rag_dti, @thawestt, @editzz103d, @enzoiio, and @giramoficial. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran. And recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> It’s really meant for people who, maybe they grew up Catholic and they just don’t really go to church anymore. Maybe they grew up without any religion at all and they see a sister pop up in their TikTok feed and they’re like, I didn’t realize that nuns had podcasts, which is a pretty common comment that we get.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This year’s internet breakout star was an order of Catholic sisters with a podcast. Within weeks of launching, Dominican Sisters Open Mic went mega viral. Clips and fan edits of host Sister Miriam saying “Sister, yesss!” spread across social media. Secular women’s magazines and Catholic media alike dubbed this year a “nun girl summer.” At the same time, some have criticized the order behind the podcast for the conservative ideology baked into its educational content. In this episode, we explore how the Dominican Sisters of Mary rose to viral fame, the beliefs behind their easy charm and infectious laughter, and what it all says about the cultural moment we’re in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This year’s internet breakout star was an order of Catholic sisters with a podcast. Within weeks of launching, Dominican Sisters Open Mic went mega viral. Clips and fan edits of host Sister Miriam saying “Sister, yesss!” spread across social media. Secular women’s magazines and Catholic media alike dubbed this year a “nun girl summer.” At the same time, some have criticized the order behind the podcast for the conservative ideology baked into its educational content. In this episode, we explore how the Dominican Sisters of Mary rose to viral fame, the beliefs behind their easy charm and infectious laughter, and what it all says about the cultural moment we’re in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cara.georgetown.edu/sr-thu-t-do-lhc-phd\">Sister Thu T. Do\u003c/a>, Sister of the Lovers of the Holy Cross of Hanoi and Research Associate at the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, Georgetown University\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cara.georgetown.edu/sr-thu-t-do-lhc-phd\">Sister Thu T. Do\u003c/a>, Sister of the Lovers of the Holy Cross of Hanoi and Research Associate at the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, Georgetown University\u003c/li>\n"
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"Don’t Call Them Nuns. They’re Podcasters. — Madison Malone Kircher, NYT",
"Why Are So Many People Listening to a Podcast About Living in a Convent? — Luis Parrales, The Atlantic",
"The TikTok Nuns Have Everyone in a Chokehold — Christen A. Johnson, Cosmopolitan",
"The Next Hot Trend Might Just Be ‘Nun Girl Summer’ — Amy Glover, Huffington Post"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/28/style/nuns-podcast-ultimate-frisbee-tiktok.html\">Don’t Call Them Nuns. They’re Podcasters.\u003c/a> — Madison Malone Kircher, \u003cem>NYT\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a71668183/tiktok-nuns/\">The TikTok Nuns Have Everyone in a Chokehold\u003c/a> — Christen A. Johnson, \u003cem>Cosmopolitan\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nun-girl-summer-rules_uk_6a55fbfee4b0ac1765ef704f\">The Next Hot Trend Might Just Be ‘Nun Girl Summer’\u003c/a> — Amy Glover, \u003cem>Huffington Post\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, tell your frenemies, stir up some drama and while you’re at it, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, tell your frenemies, stir up some drama and while you’re at it, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year’s internet breakout star was not a family vlogger, or a fashion influencer, or a Hype House type creator collective, but an order of Catholic nuns with a podcast. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year’s internet breakout star was not a family vlogger, or a fashion influencer, or a Hype House type creator collective, but an order of Catholic nuns with a podcast. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister 1: Mary is so uncomplicated and we are.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister 2: Sister, yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister 1: Mary is so uncomplicated and we are.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister 2: Sister, yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Dominican Sisters Open Mic, a podcast from the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist. They’re an order based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Within weeks of launching their podcast, they went mega viral. I personally cannot stop saying, Sister, yessss, whenever I agree with a friend’s take. Just like the host Sister Miriam does in this iconic clip. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Dominican Sisters Open Mic, a podcast from the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist. They’re an order based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Within weeks of launching their podcast, they went mega viral. I personally cannot stop saying, Sister, yessss, whenever I agree with a friend’s take. Just like the host Sister Miriam does in this iconic clip. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: Cooking\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, yes!\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: I love cooking!\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, teach me your ways!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: Cooking\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, yes!\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: I love cooking!\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, teach me your ways!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That phrase is the internet earworm of the year. It has its own fan edits. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That phrase is the internet earworm of the year. It has its own fan edits. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok User@whsprtz]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: Cooking.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok User@whsprtz]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: Cooking.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And fan reenactments. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And fan reenactments. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @whoismikecentanni]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Person 1: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>Person 2: Cooking.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>Person 1: Sister, Yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @whoismikecentanni]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Person 1: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>Person 2: Cooking.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>Person 1: Sister, Yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, they technically aren’t nuns, since they aren’t cloistered in a convent. Here’s Sister Louise Marie explaining it in another viral clip. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, they technically aren’t nuns, since they aren’t cloistered in a convent. Here’s Sister Louise Marie explaining it in another viral clip. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Louise Marie: We go out and teach, so we’re not just remaining in the convent and so we’re called Sister.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Louise Marie: We go out and teach, so we’re not just remaining in the convent and so we’re called Sister.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But still, both secular women’s magazines and Catholic media alike dubbed this year a nun-girl summer, undoubtedly thanks to the popularity of these religious sisters. One commenter claimed, “They sound like a healed, regulated nervous system.” Others pointed out how the clips of these joyful and relaxed sisters are conspicuously devoid of men. But, at its core their popularity seems to stem from the fact that so many people online yearn for the life these sisters portray in their podcast clips. They talk about cooking dinner for each other. They play ultimate frisbee together. They’re always supporting their fellow sisters and complimenting each other’s virtues. Who wouldn’t want a joyful communal living experience like that? But the full story isn’t so simple. Their virality comes at a really unique moment for both secular culture and the Catholic Church. Under that shiny, wholesome exterior, some critics have questioned the political motivations of the Sisters’ religious order. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But still, both secular women’s magazines and Catholic media alike dubbed this year a nun-girl summer, undoubtedly thanks to the popularity of these religious sisters. One commenter claimed, “They sound like a healed, regulated nervous system.” Others pointed out how the clips of these joyful and relaxed sisters are conspicuously devoid of men. But, at its core their popularity seems to stem from the fact that so many people online yearn for the life these sisters portray in their podcast clips. They talk about cooking dinner for each other. They play ultimate frisbee together. They’re always supporting their fellow sisters and complimenting each other’s virtues. Who wouldn’t want a joyful communal living experience like that? But the full story isn’t so simple. Their virality comes at a really unique moment for both secular culture and the Catholic Church. Under that shiny, wholesome exterior, some critics have questioned the political motivations of the Sisters’ religious order. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@antifascistdad]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Matthew Remski: Whenever I’m charmed, I try to see what the catch is, and so I went beyond the clips to see what they’re doing politically. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@antifascistdad]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Matthew Remski: Whenever I’m charmed, I try to see what the catch is, and so I went beyond the clips to see what they’re doing politically. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, who are the Dominican Sisters of Mary? Why is everyone obsessed with them? Today, we’re looking at how they rose to viral fame, what that says about the cultural moment we’re in, and what some critics see behind their infectious laughter. Ready? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, who are the Dominican Sisters of Mary? Why is everyone obsessed with them? Today, we’re looking at how they rose to viral fame, what that says about the cultural moment we’re in, and what some critics see behind their infectious laughter. Ready? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> As usual, let’s open a new tab. Who are the Dominican Sisters of Mary? To understand the sisters, we have to understand charisms. In Catholicism, a charism is a divine spiritual gift given by God so that a person can serve others and the church. It’s the driving force behind their mission, and Catholic orders are often organized around them. Some are focused on running community hospitals. Others are focused missionary outreach. And many, like the Dominican Sisters, work in education. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> As usual, let’s open a new tab. Who are the Dominican Sisters of Mary? To understand the sisters, we have to understand charisms. In Catholicism, a charism is a divine spiritual gift given by God so that a person can serve others and the church. It’s the driving force behind their mission, and Catholic orders are often organized around them. Some are focused on running community hospitals. Others are focused missionary outreach. And many, like the Dominican Sisters, work in education. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> So, Dominican sisters follow the Dominican charism, which was established by Saint Dominic. And Dominicans place a lot of emphasis on virtue and virtue. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> So, Dominican sisters follow the Dominican charism, which was established by Saint Dominic. And Dominicans place a lot of emphasis on virtue and virtue. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Paul Dailey, the Director of Marketing for Open Light Media, the communications arm for the order. It’s the media company that produces the Sisters’ podcast. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Paul Dailey, the Director of Marketing for Open Light Media, the communications arm for the order. It’s the media company that produces the Sisters’ podcast. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They are supposed to be teachers and preachers spreading the word of God, how to teach future generations how to live a virtuous life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They are supposed to be teachers and preachers spreading the word of God, how to teach future generations how to live a virtuous life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This specific order behind Open Light Media—the Dominican Sisters of Mary, mother of the Eucharist—is actually relatively young for a Catholic order. Their mission began in July 1996, when Pope John Paul II called for sisters and priests to be more present in local communities. So four Dominican Sisters from Nashville started looking for a place to establish a new order. Dailey says their origins can be traced back to pizza. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This specific order behind Open Light Media—the Dominican Sisters of Mary, mother of the Eucharist—is actually relatively young for a Catholic order. Their mission began in July 1996, when Pope John Paul II called for sisters and priests to be more present in local communities. So four Dominican Sisters from Nashville started looking for a place to establish a new order. Dailey says their origins can be traced back to pizza. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> I think it was Sister Joseph Andrew who saw a USA Today article. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> I think it was Sister Joseph Andrew who saw a USA Today article. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They were visiting friends in Chicago when, stopping for gas, she saw a photo of Tom Monaghan, the founder of Domino’s Pizza. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They were visiting friends in Chicago when, stopping for gas, she saw a photo of Tom Monaghan, the founder of Domino’s Pizza. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> She said, we should just go talk to him because he certainly seems like he would have maybe some money to help us establish an order. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> She said, we should just go talk to him because he certainly seems like he would have maybe some money to help us establish an order. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Monaghan was a devout Catholic and already deeply involved in Catholic philanthropy. One of the sisters actually knew him through a Catholic business network that he founded. The sisters were enroute to New York, and the Domino’s headquarters were on the way. So they decided to stop by and say hello. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Monaghan was a devout Catholic and already deeply involved in Catholic philanthropy. One of the sisters actually knew him through a Catholic business network that he founded. The sisters were enroute to New York, and the Domino’s headquarters were on the way. So they decided to stop by and say hello. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And so they just went and without really scheduling a call or anything, walked into his office and ended up meeting with Tom Monaghan, the CEO of Domino’s Pizza. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And so they just went and without really scheduling a call or anything, walked into his office and ended up meeting with Tom Monaghan, the CEO of Domino’s Pizza. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And he was interested in establishing some Catholic schools in his hometown of Ann Arbor, Michigan. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And he was interested in establishing some Catholic schools in his hometown of Ann Arbor, Michigan. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And who better to run your Catholic schools than a bunch of Dominican Sisters. So that was how it ended up in Ann Arbor, and it’s grown to, I believe we’re at over 140 sisters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And who better to run your Catholic schools than a bunch of Dominican Sisters. So that was how it ended up in Ann Arbor, and it’s grown to, I believe we’re at over 140 sisters. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Daly says that while their mission has remained consistent over the years, how they approach it has evolved. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> Their goal is to preach in the town square, right? And today, it’s not like you have a physical town square that you go to and everybody’s there listening to what’s going on. The internet has really become the town square. It’s not too often you see a religious sister pop up on TikTok, but that’s the whole point is you’re not supposed to just talk to people who believe the same things as you. You’re supposed to go out there into the public square and talk to everybody. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> Their goal is to preach in the town square, right? And today, it’s not like you have a physical town square that you go to and everybody’s there listening to what’s going on. The internet has really become the town square. It’s not too often you see a religious sister pop up on TikTok, but that’s the whole point is you’re not supposed to just talk to people who believe the same things as you. You’re supposed to go out there into the public square and talk to everybody. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which is why they saw an opportunity to spread their religious message through a podcast. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Maria: I wonder if Mary, she would ever mess with Jesus when he was little, you know, like joke around? Come on, she had to. Every mother does. Like she’d go, where did Messiah go? There he is! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Maria: I wonder if Mary, she would ever mess with Jesus when he was little, you know, like joke around? Come on, she had to. Every mother does. Like she’d go, where did Messiah go? There he is! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: My all time favorite, this is an outdoor game, but in the summers when we’re all home together is playing ultimate frisbee.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister and you are so good at that. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: My all time favorite, this is an outdoor game, but in the summers when we’re all home together is playing ultimate frisbee.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister and you are so good at that. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: I heard of one sister for Lent, she tried to drive the speed limit like the whole time.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: So she gave up speeding? \u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: Yeah, she gave up speeding. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: I heard of one sister for Lent, she tried to drive the speed limit like the whole time.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: So she gave up speeding? \u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: Yeah, she gave up speeding. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We weren’t able to sit down with any of the Dominican Sisters of Mary, but we did talk to Sister Thu Do, a research associate for the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University, CARA for short. Sister Thu theorizes that the reason the podcast is so popular is because it shatters stereotypes people have about religious sisterhood.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We weren’t able to sit down with any of the Dominican Sisters of Mary, but we did talk to Sister Thu Do, a research associate for the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University, CARA for short. Sister Thu theorizes that the reason the podcast is so popular is because it shatters stereotypes people have about religious sisterhood.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> Popular culture, uh, has painted religious life as like somber or rigid, uh, for far too long. So by projecting authentic joy, the sisters show single women that giving your life to God doesn’t mean losing your personality or joy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> Popular culture, uh, has painted religious life as like somber or rigid, uh, for far too long. So by projecting authentic joy, the sisters show single women that giving your life to God doesn’t mean losing your personality or joy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And it offers an alternative vision to the isolation many people feel today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And it offers an alternative vision to the isolation many people feel today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> Showing the beauty of community living makes the vocation feel human, touchable and, of course, deeply attractive. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> Showing the beauty of community living makes the vocation feel human, touchable and, of course, deeply attractive. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The podcast launched in February this year, and within a couple of weeks, the first viral clip took off. Back in June, Cosmopolitan reported that Dominican Sisters Open Mic listenership is up 3500% since launch, according to Spotify. Millennials and Gen Z make up 84% of the podcast’s audience on the platform. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The podcast launched in February this year, and within a couple of weeks, the first viral clip took off. Back in June, Cosmopolitan reported that Dominican Sisters Open Mic listenership is up 3500% since launch, according to Spotify. Millennials and Gen Z make up 84% of the podcast’s audience on the platform. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> This has been a total shock. Sister Miriam always jokes. She said, “when we first started, I told myself, at least my mom will watch this.” She really did not know if anybody was gonna be interested. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> This has been a total shock. Sister Miriam always jokes. She said, “when we first started, I told myself, at least my mom will watch this.” She really did not know if anybody was gonna be interested. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But as it turns out, everyone loves these sisters. I mean, the diva edits speak for themselves. These are the fan-made videos remixing clips from the podcast with sick beats and sparkly filters. Fans usually make these edits for pop stars, but in this case, it’s Catholic Sisters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But as it turns out, everyone loves these sisters. I mean, the diva edits speak for themselves. These are the fan-made videos remixing clips from the podcast with sick beats and sparkly filters. Fans usually make these edits for pop stars, but in this case, it’s Catholic Sisters. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@enzoiio]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>[music] Do you have a hobby? Cooking. Sister, yesss! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@enzoiio]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>[music] Do you have a hobby? Cooking. Sister, yesss! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They’re so authentically kind and they make you feel like you’re the only person in the whole world even though you know that they interact with like hundreds or thousands of people and yet they’ll still remember fun facts about you. And that just speaks to who they are and the way that they live. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They’re so authentically kind and they make you feel like you’re the only person in the whole world even though you know that they interact with like hundreds or thousands of people and yet they’ll still remember fun facts about you. And that just speaks to who they are and the way that they live. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> I think it really captured the imagination of folks who suddenly see these women laughing and saw them as very human and relatable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> I think it really captured the imagination of folks who suddenly see these women laughing and saw them as very human and relatable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Dr. Trisha Bruce, a sociologist of religion who studies Catholicism and social change. She pointed out that the average age of religious sisters in the U.S. is around 80 years old. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Dr. Trisha Bruce, a sociologist of religion who studies Catholicism and social change. She pointed out that the average age of religious sisters in the U.S. is around 80 years old. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> This group is not like that. These are younger women. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> This group is not like that. These are younger women. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The sisters interviewed on the podcast are typically in their 30s. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The sisters interviewed on the podcast are typically in their 30s. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> These are women who were thinking about the here and now and the future. They’re influencers, but they don’t live a life or act like influencers other than having the influence that they have. So there are all sorts of contradictions and unique things about them that I think really spark curiosity and attention and intrigue. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> These are women who were thinking about the here and now and the future. They’re influencers, but they don’t live a life or act like influencers other than having the influence that they have. So there are all sorts of contradictions and unique things about them that I think really spark curiosity and attention and intrigue. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> According to Dr. Bruce, it’s also… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> According to Dr. Bruce, it’s also… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Showcasing a different story for what religion is or also for how, in this case, younger women for whom this is a deeply meaningful experience. So I think they show something in a bright light that has otherwise been fairly treated with skepticism and uncertainty for so many years, given all of the trouble, of course, that religion has been in, too, in different ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Showcasing a different story for what religion is or also for how, in this case, younger women for whom this is a deeply meaningful experience. So I think they show something in a bright light that has otherwise been fairly treated with skepticism and uncertainty for so many years, given all of the trouble, of course, that religion has been in, too, in different ways. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Women have always been part of the Catholic media landscape, from developing programming to managing communications to helping write and distribute diocese newspapers. Back in 1981, Mother Angelica established the Catholic Media Empire by launching EWTN, which turned into a global religious broadcasting network. She herself appeared in broadcasts, answering questions and giving advice from her rocking chair. Her show was revolutionary because it was so casual. The vibe wasn’t that different from what the Dominican Sisters are doing with their podcasts today. Mother Angelica was so influential that she herself has gotten the diva edit TikTok treatment, years after her passing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Women have always been part of the Catholic media landscape, from developing programming to managing communications to helping write and distribute diocese newspapers. Back in 1981, Mother Angelica established the Catholic Media Empire by launching EWTN, which turned into a global religious broadcasting network. She herself appeared in broadcasts, answering questions and giving advice from her rocking chair. Her show was revolutionary because it was so casual. The vibe wasn’t that different from what the Dominican Sisters are doing with their podcasts today. Mother Angelica was so influential that she herself has gotten the diva edit TikTok treatment, years after her passing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from TikTok user @giramoficiall]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Mother Angelica: I’ve always said, God was very, very good to some man when he gave me a religious vocation. [laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from TikTok user @giramoficiall]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Mother Angelica: I’ve always said, God was very, very good to some man when he gave me a religious vocation. [laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Mother Angelica was an outlier. Dr. Bruce says that historically, men were front and center in Catholic media. They were the voices of the church, speaking on Catholic radio, writing Catholic op-eds, and appearing on Catholic television broadcasts. Today, media has evolved, drastically. The great shift to digital has given others a chance to share their voices too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Mother Angelica was an outlier. Dr. Bruce says that historically, men were front and center in Catholic media. They were the voices of the church, speaking on Catholic radio, writing Catholic op-eds, and appearing on Catholic television broadcasts. Today, media has evolved, drastically. The great shift to digital has given others a chance to share their voices too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> And I think we’re seeing here an example of a group of religious sisters who has very wisely seen, ah, there’s a gap, there is an opening. The people are here, the messaging is over here. So we need to take the message and put it into these new spaces. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> And I think we’re seeing here an example of a group of religious sisters who has very wisely seen, ah, there’s a gap, there is an opening. The people are here, the messaging is over here. So we need to take the message and put it into these new spaces. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Dominican Sisters have actually been working on their media presence for years. The podcast is just the latest in several efforts they’ve made to spread their message and fundraise, using the media to their advantage, like going on the Oprah Winfrey Show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Dominican Sisters have actually been working on their media presence for years. The podcast is just the latest in several efforts they’ve made to spread their message and fundraise, using the media to their advantage, like going on the Oprah Winfrey Show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Oprah correspondent Lisa Ling: Why did you want to pursue this life? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Oprah correspondent Lisa Ling: Why did you want to pursue this life? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is a clip from their first appearance on Oprah in 2010. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is a clip from their first appearance on Oprah in 2010. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister: God wanted me here, and he made it very clear to me.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lisa Ling: How do you know? Like, do you hear a voice?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister: It’s right here.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister: God wanted me here, and he made it very clear to me.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lisa Ling: How do you know? Like, do you hear a voice?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister: It’s right here.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Five years after that appearance, Oprah aired an update and interviewed the Dominican Sisters of Mary. Some of them were actually viewers. They said they were inspired to answer the call after watching that first segment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Five years after that appearance, Oprah aired an update and interviewed the Dominican Sisters of Mary. Some of them were actually viewers. They said they were inspired to answer the call after watching that first segment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister: Now we’re known as the Oprah nuns, so if you put into Google or any search engine the Oprah Nuns, we will come right up. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister: Now we’re known as the Oprah nuns, so if you put into Google or any search engine the Oprah Nuns, we will come right up. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Obviously, virality is not a Catholic charism. The Dominican Sisters’ ultimate mission goes beyond getting on Oprah or building a TikTok following. They’re really focused on education and they’ve been incredibly digitally adept in that field too. They run Open Light Media, a subscription platform of Catholic educational content. And this is where things start to get complicated. Matthew Remski was also taken by the Sisters’ easy charm and joyful conversations. But as a cradle Catholic and writer who reports on religion and authoritarian extremism, he had to dig deeper. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Obviously, virality is not a Catholic charism. The Dominican Sisters’ ultimate mission goes beyond getting on Oprah or building a TikTok following. They’re really focused on education and they’ve been incredibly digitally adept in that field too. They run Open Light Media, a subscription platform of Catholic educational content. And this is where things start to get complicated. Matthew Remski was also taken by the Sisters’ easy charm and joyful conversations. But as a cradle Catholic and writer who reports on religion and authoritarian extremism, he had to dig deeper. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I think they really offer a fantastic package, and then they also hide what they believe too, and they have to, because if you really scratch the surface on what fairly conservative Catholic nuns believe, it’s not going to be appealing to a lot of the women that are actually really thrilled by contemplating this communal life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I think they really offer a fantastic package, and then they also hide what they believe too, and they have to, because if you really scratch the surface on what fairly conservative Catholic nuns believe, it’s not going to be appealing to a lot of the women that are actually really thrilled by contemplating this communal life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what isn’t reflected in the podcast clips going viral on TikTok? After the break, we’re driving into open light media and some of the ideology baked into its educational content. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. When we’re back, we are getting into the politics behind the clips. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what isn’t reflected in the podcast clips going viral on TikTok? After the break, we’re driving into open light media and some of the ideology baked into its educational content. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. When we’re back, we are getting into the politics behind the clips. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab. What do the Dominican Sisters believe? While the sisters have definitely gotten a lot of attention for their viral success, others are looking beyond the charm. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab. What do the Dominican Sisters believe? While the sisters have definitely gotten a lot of attention for their viral success, others are looking beyond the charm. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@antifascistdad]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Matthew Remski: Now the press coverage has focused on the vibes without a single question raised about their politics. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@antifascistdad]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Matthew Remski: Now the press coverage has focused on the vibes without a single question raised about their politics. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Matthew Remski again, a researcher and writer who reports on authoritarian extremism, spiritual influence, and religion. He’s critiqued the sisters on his own show, the Conspirituality Podcast, and on TikTok. He, too, grew up Catholic, in a very particular school of Catholic thought. That experience shaped his viewpoint on organized religion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Matthew Remski again, a researcher and writer who reports on authoritarian extremism, spiritual influence, and religion. He’s critiqued the sisters on his own show, the Conspirituality Podcast, and on TikTok. He, too, grew up Catholic, in a very particular school of Catholic thought. That experience shaped his viewpoint on organized religion. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> There’s a pugnacious part of me that says, yeah, I’m absolutely still Catholic, but I’m the kind of Catholic that I learned how to be initially when I was introduced to the church through liberation theology back in the 1970s. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> There’s a pugnacious part of me that says, yeah, I’m absolutely still Catholic, but I’m the kind of Catholic that I learned how to be initially when I was introduced to the church through liberation theology back in the 1970s. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Liberation theology is a religious movement. It emphasizes not just serving the poor, but also dismantling social injustice and economic inequality. It’s a very political approach to religion. It actually originated in Latin American Marxist movements. And this is important, because this is central to Matthew’s criticism of Dominican Sisters Open Mic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Liberation theology is a religious movement. It emphasizes not just serving the poor, but also dismantling social injustice and economic inequality. It’s a very political approach to religion. It actually originated in Latin American Marxist movements. And this is important, because this is central to Matthew’s criticism of Dominican Sisters Open Mic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I think that they’ve done an incredible job at providing people, women especially, younger women especially with a vision of, you know, productivity and communal life and shared purpose in the world that is also, you now, about shared resources. And I think they really put together an attractive vision of an alternative to the precarious. Uh, an alternative to, um, you know, Instagram and tech talk life. I also knew at the same time that they were, uh, concealing what they’re really about, uh in a particular way that, that I wanted to make clear. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I think that they’ve done an incredible job at providing people, women especially, younger women especially with a vision of, you know, productivity and communal life and shared purpose in the world that is also, you now, about shared resources. And I think they really put together an attractive vision of an alternative to the precarious. Uh, an alternative to, um, you know, Instagram and tech talk life. I also knew at the same time that they were, uh, concealing what they’re really about, uh in a particular way that, that I wanted to make clear. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Because while the sisters talk about playing frisbee and cooking and the joys of communal living for a higher purpose, Matthew has qualms about the ideology of the Catholic order they serve under. Chief among his concerns is Open Light Media, the media company that produces their podcast. The podcast is actually just a side project. Open Light’s main focus is producing educational content. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Because while the sisters talk about playing frisbee and cooking and the joys of communal living for a higher purpose, Matthew has qualms about the ideology of the Catholic order they serve under. Chief among his concerns is Open Light Media, the media company that produces their podcast. The podcast is actually just a side project. Open Light’s main focus is producing educational content. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> If you look at their product page, that is their main output, right? They sell these courses to Catholic educators and homeschoolers. It is an anti-public education, anti-secular industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> If you look at their product page, that is their main output, right? They sell these courses to Catholic educators and homeschoolers. It is an anti-public education, anti-secular industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Open Light Media produces a faith-based Catholic alternative to something called social emotional learning. Social emotional learning is an educational framework that revolves around teaching children relationship building skills, responsible decision making, and emotional regulation. This method has been widely adopted by American public schools, many of which implement classroom-wide life skill lessons and daily check-ins, as well as individualized behavioral support for students who need it. There’s a lot of focus on identifying feelings, empathy for others, and affirmation, which has been criticized by some conservatives, including many Catholic organizations, who say \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Open Light Media produces a faith-based Catholic alternative to something called social emotional learning. Social emotional learning is an educational framework that revolves around teaching children relationship building skills, responsible decision making, and emotional regulation. This method has been widely adopted by American public schools, many of which implement classroom-wide life skill lessons and daily check-ins, as well as individualized behavioral support for students who need it. There’s a lot of focus on identifying feelings, empathy for others, and affirmation, which has been criticized by some conservatives, including many Catholic organizations, who say \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> Look, you know, all of this touchy-feely, no-God-centered, secular, psychological stuff that you guys are doing with kids are really leaving them unanchored. They’re leading kids astray. They are not giving them a grounding of the truth of the gospel, which is that there are two genders or, you can’t really change your sex or whatever, or that it’s not really natural to be queer. If you’re going to be a queer, you can’t really act on it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> Look, you know, all of this touchy-feely, no-God-centered, secular, psychological stuff that you guys are doing with kids are really leaving them unanchored. They’re leading kids astray. They are not giving them a grounding of the truth of the gospel, which is that there are two genders or, you can’t really change your sex or whatever, or that it’s not really natural to be queer. If you’re going to be a queer, you can’t really act on it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They actually addressed this in the very first episode of Dominican Sisters Open Mic, when one sister interviewed Catholic psychologists about the dangers of secular education. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They actually addressed this in the very first episode of Dominican Sisters Open Mic, when one sister interviewed Catholic psychologists about the dangers of secular education. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: I think Tik Tok was essentially responsible for this kind of transgender movement.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Brett Salkeld: Right.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: And creating a generation that had been manipulated\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Brett Salkeld: Right\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: to think about gender in this very relative way. We’re just leaving them in this state of confusion because they’ve been manipulated in this way.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Brett Salkeld: Right. And then, and then when we put them in this state, and then we affirm. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: I think Tik Tok was essentially responsible for this kind of transgender movement.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Brett Salkeld: Right.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: And creating a generation that had been manipulated\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Brett Salkeld: Right\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: to think about gender in this very relative way. We’re just leaving them in this state of confusion because they’ve been manipulated in this way.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Brett Salkeld: Right. And then, and then when we put them in this state, and then we affirm. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of affirmation culture, as one of the podcast guests put it, Open Light’s educational programs focus on virtues and faith. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of affirmation culture, as one of the podcast guests put it, Open Light’s educational programs focus on virtues and faith. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski:\u003c/strong> Which they believe should replace the secular version of social-emotional learning in public schools because they believe that social- emotional learning in public school is the kind of thing that just allows kids to explore themselves in a way that might make them understand that they’re trans. Like they’re using a kind of quasi-intellectual take on an educational practice to try to persuade people that in order to be a well-rounded teacher who nurtures well-rounded children, you really have to give them a kind of social-emotional context that’s based in God. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski:\u003c/strong> Which they believe should replace the secular version of social-emotional learning in public schools because they believe that social- emotional learning in public school is the kind of thing that just allows kids to explore themselves in a way that might make them understand that they’re trans. Like they’re using a kind of quasi-intellectual take on an educational practice to try to persuade people that in order to be a well-rounded teacher who nurtures well-rounded children, you really have to give them a kind of social-emotional context that’s based in God. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Of course, this conservative religious ideology isn’t obvious from the clips going viral on TikTok. As Matthew noted, the podcast didn’t blow up until Sister Miriam took the reins as host, and they pivoted from lengthy discussions on Catholic education to one-on-one interviews with other sisters about their own lives. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Of course, this conservative religious ideology isn’t obvious from the clips going viral on TikTok. As Matthew noted, the podcast didn’t blow up until Sister Miriam took the reins as host, and they pivoted from lengthy discussions on Catholic education to one-on-one interviews with other sisters about their own lives. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Andre: Some people like to play scripture roulette, right? Do the, like, flip through the Bible and like finger point. I mean, that’s one way. Actually, sometimes God has really spoken to me in that way. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Andre: Some people like to play scripture roulette, right? Do the, like, flip through the Bible and like finger point. I mean, that’s one way. Actually, sometimes God has really spoken to me in that way. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some people on ex-Catholic forums on Reddit have questioned the authenticity of the sisters’ joy. Commenters have speculated that they’re under pressure to come off as fun and that the podcast is just propaganda. And while Matthew agrees that the clips are propaganda for the Catholic Church, he doesn’t agree with all of the detractors’ assumptions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some people on ex-Catholic forums on Reddit have questioned the authenticity of the sisters’ joy. Commenters have speculated that they’re under pressure to come off as fun and that the podcast is just propaganda. And while Matthew agrees that the clips are propaganda for the Catholic Church, he doesn’t agree with all of the detractors’ assumptions. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I don’t want to dismiss them personally because they seem like really lovely people who, you know, I would love to hang out with. And I don’t t get any sense that anybody is trying to be deceptive or anybody is trying to be, you know, manipulative and recruiting. I think they are really presenting their best lives and I don t know how conscious they are of, you know, concealing the ideology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I don’t want to dismiss them personally because they seem like really lovely people who, you know, I would love to hang out with. And I don’t t get any sense that anybody is trying to be deceptive or anybody is trying to be, you know, manipulative and recruiting. I think they are really presenting their best lives and I don t know how conscious they are of, you know, concealing the ideology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But what does bother him is that this portrayal of Catholicism is what consistently goes viral, a palatable version that isn’t upfront about a belief system that younger viewers on social media might find far less appealing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But what does bother him is that this portrayal of Catholicism is what consistently goes viral, a palatable version that isn’t upfront about a belief system that younger viewers on social media might find far less appealing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> And while they’re doing that, they are not, to my knowledge, engaging in any of the social justice work that generations of prior religious women in the United States have been engaged in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> And while they’re doing that, they are not, to my knowledge, engaging in any of the social justice work that generations of prior religious women in the United States have been engaged in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Religious sisters have taken on different types of social justice work throughout modern American history. In 1965, a group of Catholic sisters marched with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in Selma, Alabama to support voting rights for all. During the peak of the AIDS epidemic, Catholic sisters in Oakland fought to build affordable housing for patients who needed live-in medical care. In 2012, sisters known as the Nuns on the Bus traveled across the country in protest of federal budget cuts that would have affected vulnerable, low-income Americans. And more recently, religious sisters have been fighting ICE deportation efforts across the country, funding passports for children who’ve been separated from their deported parents. And organizing demonstrations outside of ICE detention centers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Religious sisters have taken on different types of social justice work throughout modern American history. In 1965, a group of Catholic sisters marched with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in Selma, Alabama to support voting rights for all. During the peak of the AIDS epidemic, Catholic sisters in Oakland fought to build affordable housing for patients who needed live-in medical care. In 2012, sisters known as the Nuns on the Bus traveled across the country in protest of federal budget cuts that would have affected vulnerable, low-income Americans. And more recently, religious sisters have been fighting ICE deportation efforts across the country, funding passports for children who’ve been separated from their deported parents. And organizing demonstrations outside of ICE detention centers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> This is the liberation theology legacy that exists within Catholic religious life, which has now become a kind of minority demographic and now which is being outshadowed by the high production values of, you know, convents and monastic communities that have better social media skills and, you now, may well be supported by conservative Catholics. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> This is the liberation theology legacy that exists within Catholic religious life, which has now become a kind of minority demographic and now which is being outshadowed by the high production values of, you know, convents and monastic communities that have better social media skills and, you now, may well be supported by conservative Catholics. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that glitzy, polished Catholic media costs money. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that glitzy, polished Catholic media costs money. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> You need support for that. You need cultural support for that. And we also know that, you know, especially in the United States, wealthy Catholics are responsible for supporting all kinds of politicized reactionary religious efforts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> You need support for that. You need cultural support for that. And we also know that, you know, especially in the United States, wealthy Catholics are responsible for supporting all kinds of politicized reactionary religious efforts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We asked Paul Daly, Open Light Media’s Director of Marketing, about some of the critiques of the organization’s ideology. He wasn’t surprised. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We asked Paul Daly, Open Light Media’s Director of Marketing, about some of the critiques of the organization’s ideology. He wasn’t surprised. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> I mean, no matter what, if you’re going into the public space in any way, there’s going to be critiques, right? If somebody disagrees with something that the sisters say, the whole point is that the sisters are not saying necessarily that you have to agree with them in order to still listen to them. And keep in mind, a majority of these sisters are teachers. And so, they’re out throughout the country working at different schools. And of course, they work at Catholic schools, but you don’t have to be Catholic to go to Catholic school. So, they have tons of students, you know, who have different viewpoints. And so, they’re very used to interacting with people who disagree with them, even dislike them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> I mean, no matter what, if you’re going into the public space in any way, there’s going to be critiques, right? If somebody disagrees with something that the sisters say, the whole point is that the sisters are not saying necessarily that you have to agree with them in order to still listen to them. And keep in mind, a majority of these sisters are teachers. And so, they’re out throughout the country working at different schools. And of course, they work at Catholic schools, but you don’t have to be Catholic to go to Catholic school. So, they have tons of students, you know, who have different viewpoints. And so, they’re very used to interacting with people who disagree with them, even dislike them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But he did acknowledge that religious sisterhood is deeper than what viewers see in short vertical video clips. Committing to religious life is far from an easy choice. And for many, it comes with great personal sacrifice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But he did acknowledge that religious sisterhood is deeper than what viewers see in short vertical video clips. Committing to religious life is far from an easy choice. And for many, it comes with great personal sacrifice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They are joyful and happy and you know, but we also don’t want to, you know, sell short just how hard they work. Cause it really is definitely not just hanging out playing frisbee. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They are joyful and happy and you know, but we also don’t want to, you know, sell short just how hard they work. Cause it really is definitely not just hanging out playing frisbee. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We followed up with Paul after our interview, giving him another opportunity to respond to critiques of Open Light Media and asking him whether the Dominican Sisters of Mary have engaged in any type of social justice work. We didn’t hear back though. So what does the sisters’ virality say about religious life in the U.S. though? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s a new tab. What is “nun girl summer” really about? While the Dominican Sisters of Mary kicked off “nun girl summer” earlier this year, Catholic influence appears to have made waves in pop culture across America, both on and offline. Convents in New York are reporting long waitlists for prayer retreats. Birkenstock rolled out these stop-motion ads this summer, featuring nuns doing hopscotch in slides. Catholic Kitsch has made a comeback. Cutesy, nostalgic, novelty prayer candles and glittery Jesus statues are prime meme material. In other words, Catholicism is really up right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s a new tab. What is “nun girl summer” really about? While the Dominican Sisters of Mary kicked off “nun girl summer” earlier this year, Catholic influence appears to have made waves in pop culture across America, both on and offline. Convents in New York are reporting long waitlists for prayer retreats. Birkenstock rolled out these stop-motion ads this summer, featuring nuns doing hopscotch in slides. Catholic Kitsch has made a comeback. Cutesy, nostalgic, novelty prayer candles and glittery Jesus statues are prime meme material. In other words, Catholicism is really up right now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> My mom, a baby boomer, she grew up in a very Catholic world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> And I think for a lot of Catholics who grew up in that world, your neighborhood was Catholic. You called your neighborhood by the name of your parish. Oftentimes, this was very intertwined with ethnic identity. religion, Catholicism was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> And I think for a lot of Catholics who grew up in that world, your neighborhood was Catholic. You called your neighborhood by the name of your parish. Oftentimes, this was very intertwined with ethnic identity. religion, Catholicism was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Fast forward, and religious life in the US looks very different now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Many kids today, of course, are being raised in non-religious households, non- religious families. So. Religion is less of a forefront reality in home, in the neighborhood, in the broader culture. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Many kids today, of course, are being raised in non-religious households, non- religious families. So. Religion is less of a forefront reality in home, in the neighborhood, in the broader culture. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> It makes it feel countercultural. It makes that look different. It makes it feels intriguing and mysterious or maybe even a way to connect to something bigger than oneself in a world that feels so isolating and lonely. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> It makes it feel countercultural. It makes that look different. It makes it feels intriguing and mysterious or maybe even a way to connect to something bigger than oneself in a world that feels so isolating and lonely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Think about the vintage marketplace today. For some, their grail is a 90s-era purse that someone’s grandma probably has in her closet. For others, it’s a mid-century table lamp that was once common in every university library. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Think about the vintage marketplace today. For some, their grail is a 90s-era purse that someone’s grandma probably has in her closet. For others, it’s a mid-century table lamp that was once common in every university library. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> They’re a treasure to one generation. They get thrown out as trash to the next. And then suddenly, another generation looks around and is like, oh, this is super cool. There’s something here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> They’re a treasure to one generation. They get thrown out as trash to the next. And then suddenly, another generation looks around and is like, oh, this is super cool. There’s something here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’re trying to dig around for something authentic and real. And in that, there becomes… \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> An opening there for an intrigue around religion that I think is likewise helping to give Catholicism this kind of moment. It is certainly an invitation to learn more and for some to take action. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> An opening there for an intrigue around religion that I think is likewise helping to give Catholicism this kind of moment. It is certainly an invitation to learn more and for some to take action. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Bruce says that people have been distrustful and skeptical of religion and religious institutions for valid reasons. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Bruce says that people have been distrustful and skeptical of religion and religious institutions for valid reasons. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Because, of course, you have instances of abuse or discrimination or inauthenticity that have really been a reckoning for many institutions. And I think now the religion and other institutions are undergoing a massive project to rebuild trust and people talk about looking for authenticity. And so I think the podcast by these Dominican sisters is in some ways a reflection of authenticity or a desire to showcase a more transparent experience and message around religion and a re-invitation to see as trustworthy, something like religion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Because, of course, you have instances of abuse or discrimination or inauthenticity that have really been a reckoning for many institutions. And I think now the religion and other institutions are undergoing a massive project to rebuild trust and people talk about looking for authenticity. And so I think the podcast by these Dominican sisters is in some ways a reflection of authenticity or a desire to showcase a more transparent experience and message around religion and a re-invitation to see as trustworthy, something like religion. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sister Thu agrees. In her research at CARA at Georgetown, she’s found that Millennials and Gen Z are reporting historic levels of isolation and anxiety. The Dominican Sisters podcast emerged in the midst of that cold. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sister Thu agrees. In her research at CARA at Georgetown, she’s found that Millennials and Gen Z are reporting historic levels of isolation and anxiety. The Dominican Sisters podcast emerged in the midst of that cold. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> It is responding directly to a hunger for belonging and meaning, especially among the younger generations, as they always search for meaning and real connection. We are seeing a remarkable spiritual surge. Dioceses and campus ministries across the country reported significant surges in baptisms and new candidates last Easter. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> It is responding directly to a hunger for belonging and meaning, especially among the younger generations, as they always search for meaning and real connection. We are seeing a remarkable spiritual surge. Dioceses and campus ministries across the country reported significant surges in baptisms and new candidates last Easter. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She says that what the sisters are doing with their podcast is really in line with what the whole universal Catholic Church is doing. CARA reports that adults 18 to 35 spend hours online searching for connection, so it makes sense to reach them where they’re at. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She says that what the sisters are doing with their podcast is really in line with what the whole universal Catholic Church is doing. CARA reports that adults 18 to 35 spend hours online searching for connection, so it makes sense to reach them where they’re at. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> And that is the digital evangelization tool in the modern town square, which today happens to be TikTok and YouTube feeds. Right, so by showing up in these digital spaces, the sisters fulfill their religious mandate to meet believers, you know, seekers and non-believers alike where they already spend their time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> And that is the digital evangelization tool in the modern town square, which today happens to be TikTok and YouTube feeds. Right, so by showing up in these digital spaces, the sisters fulfill their religious mandate to meet believers, you know, seekers and non-believers alike where they already spend their time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Is it actually bringing anyone into religious sisterhood though? Well, it takes a really long time to become a sister. It’s a years long process. But while it’s too early to tell if podcast listeners will be inspired to join the Catholic order, like Oprah viewers were 16 years ago, there is a lot of interest in it. Paul from Open Light Media said that after going viral, the Dominican sisters have seen an uptick in young women reaching out for discernment. That’s a process of examining whether it’s God’s will to do something, like becoming a nun. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Is it actually bringing anyone into religious sisterhood though? Well, it takes a really long time to become a sister. It’s a years long process. But while it’s too early to tell if podcast listeners will be inspired to join the Catholic order, like Oprah viewers were 16 years ago, there is a lot of interest in it. Paul from Open Light Media said that after going viral, the Dominican sisters have seen an uptick in young women reaching out for discernment. That’s a process of examining whether it’s God’s will to do something, like becoming a nun. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And there’s actually a link specifically for that because we saw that happening on our link tree. The process of becoming a sister is very drawn out. It takes years to become a fully professed sister. I anticipate that 10, 15 years down the line, we will probably have a handful of sisters who first heard about the order from the podcast. I really do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And there’s actually a link specifically for that because we saw that happening on our link tree. The process of becoming a sister is very drawn out. It takes years to become a fully professed sister. I anticipate that 10, 15 years down the line, we will probably have a handful of sisters who first heard about the order from the podcast. I really do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Matthew Remski urges people to look beyond the viral clips, the fan edits, and the esthetic mood boards, to really investigate what religious sisterhood means and what the organization, the viral content is coming from, stands for. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Matthew Remski urges people to look beyond the viral clips, the fan edits, and the esthetic mood boards, to really investigate what religious sisterhood means and what the organization, the viral content is coming from, stands for. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> Religious life is punk rock. There’s something really cool about it. And let’s just be clear about what it all entails, right? I would say that what they are showing is the delight they have in communal life. And they’re not showing what the ideological price is for that. Like, I think most people will watch the clip about Ultimate Frisbee or any other activity that they have or like Bingo Night or Games Night or whatever they’re talking about, they’re talking how much fun they have together. And that’s really wonderful and heartwarming. But I think that when you understand that, oh, they actually have a straightforward Catholic ideology that’s driving their faith and their intellectual output and you learn what that ideology teaches and you learned that it’s exclusionary, the conviviality, the thing that people are attracted to, I just wanna say it comes at a price and you gotta know what the price is. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> Religious life is punk rock. There’s something really cool about it. And let’s just be clear about what it all entails, right? I would say that what they are showing is the delight they have in communal life. And they’re not showing what the ideological price is for that. Like, I think most people will watch the clip about Ultimate Frisbee or any other activity that they have or like Bingo Night or Games Night or whatever they’re talking about, they’re talking how much fun they have together. And that’s really wonderful and heartwarming. But I think that when you understand that, oh, they actually have a straightforward Catholic ideology that’s driving their faith and their intellectual output and you learn what that ideology teaches and you learned that it’s exclusionary, the conviviality, the thing that people are attracted to, I just wanna say it comes at a price and you gotta know what the price is. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This doesn’t mean that you can’t watch the sisters’ content or find solace in their joy. Will I stop saying, ‘sister, yes’ every time I agree with my literal sister? No. But it is worth considering where the content on your feed really comes from and digging deeper beyond viral clips, even if their laughter is infectious. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This doesn’t mean that you can’t watch the sisters’ content or find solace in their joy. Will I stop saying, ‘sister, yes’ every time I agree with my literal sister? No. But it is worth considering where the content on your feed really comes from and digging deeper beyond viral clips, even if their laughter is infectious. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter] Sister, yes! [laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter] Sister, yes! [laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> With that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> With that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon, additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon, additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode includes clips from Open Light Media and Matthew Remske, AKA Anti-Fascist Dad, and the Oprah Winfrey Show. It also includes clips from the TikTok accounts @Whsprtz, @whoismikecentanni, @Rag_dti, @thawestt, @editzz103d, @enzoiio, and @giramoficial. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran. And recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode includes clips from Open Light Media and Matthew Remske, AKA Anti-Fascist Dad, and the Oprah Winfrey Show. It also includes clips from the TikTok accounts @Whsprtz, @whoismikecentanni, @Rag_dti, @thawestt, @editzz103d, @enzoiio, and @giramoficial. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran. And recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> It’s really meant for people who, maybe they grew up Catholic and they just don’t really go to church anymore. Maybe they grew up without any religion at all and they see a sister pop up in their TikTok feed and they’re like, I didn’t realize that nuns had podcasts, which is a pretty common comment that we get.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This year’s internet breakout star was an order of Catholic sisters with a podcast. Within weeks of launching, Dominican Sisters Open Mic went mega viral. Clips and fan edits of host Sister Miriam saying “Sister, yesss!” spread across social media. Secular women’s magazines and Catholic media alike dubbed this year a “nun girl summer.” At the same time, some have criticized the order behind the podcast for the conservative ideology baked into its educational content. In this episode, we explore how the Dominican Sisters of Mary rose to viral fame, the beliefs behind their easy charm and infectious laughter, and what it all says about the cultural moment we’re in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests: \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Paul Dailey, director of marketing at Openlight Media\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cara.georgetown.edu/sr-thu-t-do-lhc-phd\">Sister Thu T. Do\u003c/a>, Sister of the Lovers of the Holy Cross of Hanoi and Research Associate at the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, Georgetown University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://triciabruce.com/\">Dr. Tricia Bruce\u003c/a>, Sociology of Religion and Director of Social Science Research, Institute for Advanced Catholic Studies\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://matthewremski.com/wordpress/\">Matthew Remski\u003c/a>, religion and politics journalist, co-host of Conspirituality and author of \u003cem>Antifascist Dad: Urgent Conversations with Young People in Chaotic Times\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/28/style/nuns-podcast-ultimate-frisbee-tiktok.html\">Don’t Call Them Nuns. They’re Podcasters.\u003c/a> — Madison Malone Kircher, \u003cem>NYT\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/2026/08/dominican-sisters-podcast/688395/\">Why Are So Many People Listening to a Podcast About Living in a Convent?\u003c/a> — Luis Parrales, \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a71668183/tiktok-nuns/\">The TikTok Nuns Have Everyone in a Chokehold\u003c/a> — Christen A. Johnson, \u003cem>Cosmopolitan\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nun-girl-summer-rules_uk_6a55fbfee4b0ac1765ef704f\">The Next Hot Trend Might Just Be ‘Nun Girl Summer’\u003c/a> — Amy Glover, \u003cem>Huffington Post\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, tell your frenemies, stir up some drama and while you’re at it, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year’s internet breakout star was not a family vlogger, or a fashion influencer, or a Hype House type creator collective, but an order of Catholic nuns with a podcast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister 1: Mary is so uncomplicated and we are.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister 2: Sister, yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Dominican Sisters Open Mic, a podcast from the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist. They’re an order based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Within weeks of launching their podcast, they went mega viral. I personally cannot stop saying, Sister, yessss, whenever I agree with a friend’s take. Just like the host Sister Miriam does in this iconic clip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: Cooking\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, yes!\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: I love cooking!\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, teach me your ways!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That phrase is the internet earworm of the year. It has its own fan edits. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok User@whsprtz]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mercedes: Cooking.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister, yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And fan reenactments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user @whoismikecentanni]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Person 1: Do you have a hobby?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>Person 2: Cooking.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>Person 1: Sister, Yes! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, they technically aren’t nuns, since they aren’t cloistered in a convent. Here’s Sister Louise Marie explaining it in another viral clip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Louise Marie: We go out and teach, so we’re not just remaining in the convent and so we’re called Sister.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But still, both secular women’s magazines and Catholic media alike dubbed this year a nun-girl summer, undoubtedly thanks to the popularity of these religious sisters. One commenter claimed, “They sound like a healed, regulated nervous system.” Others pointed out how the clips of these joyful and relaxed sisters are conspicuously devoid of men. But, at its core their popularity seems to stem from the fact that so many people online yearn for the life these sisters portray in their podcast clips. They talk about cooking dinner for each other. They play ultimate frisbee together. They’re always supporting their fellow sisters and complimenting each other’s virtues. Who wouldn’t want a joyful communal living experience like that? But the full story isn’t so simple. Their virality comes at a really unique moment for both secular culture and the Catholic Church. Under that shiny, wholesome exterior, some critics have questioned the political motivations of the Sisters’ religious order. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@antifascistdad]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Matthew Remski: Whenever I’m charmed, I try to see what the catch is, and so I went beyond the clips to see what they’re doing politically. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, who are the Dominican Sisters of Mary? Why is everyone obsessed with them? Today, we’re looking at how they rose to viral fame, what that says about the cultural moment we’re in, and what some critics see behind their infectious laughter. Ready? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> As usual, let’s open a new tab. Who are the Dominican Sisters of Mary? To understand the sisters, we have to understand charisms. In Catholicism, a charism is a divine spiritual gift given by God so that a person can serve others and the church. It’s the driving force behind their mission, and Catholic orders are often organized around them. Some are focused on running community hospitals. Others are focused missionary outreach. And many, like the Dominican Sisters, work in education. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> So, Dominican sisters follow the Dominican charism, which was established by Saint Dominic. And Dominicans place a lot of emphasis on virtue and virtue. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Paul Dailey, the Director of Marketing for Open Light Media, the communications arm for the order. It’s the media company that produces the Sisters’ podcast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They are supposed to be teachers and preachers spreading the word of God, how to teach future generations how to live a virtuous life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This specific order behind Open Light Media—the Dominican Sisters of Mary, mother of the Eucharist—is actually relatively young for a Catholic order. Their mission began in July 1996, when Pope John Paul II called for sisters and priests to be more present in local communities. So four Dominican Sisters from Nashville started looking for a place to establish a new order. Dailey says their origins can be traced back to pizza. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> I think it was Sister Joseph Andrew who saw a USA Today article. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They were visiting friends in Chicago when, stopping for gas, she saw a photo of Tom Monaghan, the founder of Domino’s Pizza. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> She said, we should just go talk to him because he certainly seems like he would have maybe some money to help us establish an order. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Monaghan was a devout Catholic and already deeply involved in Catholic philanthropy. One of the sisters actually knew him through a Catholic business network that he founded. The sisters were enroute to New York, and the Domino’s headquarters were on the way. So they decided to stop by and say hello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And so they just went and without really scheduling a call or anything, walked into his office and ended up meeting with Tom Monaghan, the CEO of Domino’s Pizza. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And he was interested in establishing some Catholic schools in his hometown of Ann Arbor, Michigan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And who better to run your Catholic schools than a bunch of Dominican Sisters. So that was how it ended up in Ann Arbor, and it’s grown to, I believe we’re at over 140 sisters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Daly says that while their mission has remained consistent over the years, how they approach it has evolved. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> Their goal is to preach in the town square, right? And today, it’s not like you have a physical town square that you go to and everybody’s there listening to what’s going on. The internet has really become the town square. It’s not too often you see a religious sister pop up on TikTok, but that’s the whole point is you’re not supposed to just talk to people who believe the same things as you. You’re supposed to go out there into the public square and talk to everybody. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which is why they saw an opportunity to spread their religious message through a podcast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Maria: I wonder if Mary, she would ever mess with Jesus when he was little, you know, like joke around? Come on, she had to. Every mother does. Like she’d go, where did Messiah go? There he is! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: My all time favorite, this is an outdoor game, but in the summers when we’re all home together is playing ultimate frisbee.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: Sister and you are so good at that. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: I heard of one sister for Lent, she tried to drive the speed limit like the whole time.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Miriam: So she gave up speeding? \u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister Mary Bethany: Yeah, she gave up speeding. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We weren’t able to sit down with any of the Dominican Sisters of Mary, but we did talk to Sister Thu Do, a research associate for the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University, CARA for short. Sister Thu theorizes that the reason the podcast is so popular is because it shatters stereotypes people have about religious sisterhood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> Popular culture, uh, has painted religious life as like somber or rigid, uh, for far too long. So by projecting authentic joy, the sisters show single women that giving your life to God doesn’t mean losing your personality or joy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And it offers an alternative vision to the isolation many people feel today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> Showing the beauty of community living makes the vocation feel human, touchable and, of course, deeply attractive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The podcast launched in February this year, and within a couple of weeks, the first viral clip took off. Back in June, Cosmopolitan reported that Dominican Sisters Open Mic listenership is up 3500% since launch, according to Spotify. Millennials and Gen Z make up 84% of the podcast’s audience on the platform. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> This has been a total shock. Sister Miriam always jokes. She said, “when we first started, I told myself, at least my mom will watch this.” She really did not know if anybody was gonna be interested. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But as it turns out, everyone loves these sisters. I mean, the diva edits speak for themselves. These are the fan-made videos remixing clips from the podcast with sick beats and sparkly filters. Fans usually make these edits for pop stars, but in this case, it’s Catholic Sisters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@enzoiio]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>[music] Do you have a hobby? Cooking. Sister, yesss! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They’re so authentically kind and they make you feel like you’re the only person in the whole world even though you know that they interact with like hundreds or thousands of people and yet they’ll still remember fun facts about you. And that just speaks to who they are and the way that they live. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> I think it really captured the imagination of folks who suddenly see these women laughing and saw them as very human and relatable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Dr. Trisha Bruce, a sociologist of religion who studies Catholicism and social change. She pointed out that the average age of religious sisters in the U.S. is around 80 years old. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> This group is not like that. These are younger women. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The sisters interviewed on the podcast are typically in their 30s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> These are women who were thinking about the here and now and the future. They’re influencers, but they don’t live a life or act like influencers other than having the influence that they have. So there are all sorts of contradictions and unique things about them that I think really spark curiosity and attention and intrigue. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> According to Dr. Bruce, it’s also… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Showcasing a different story for what religion is or also for how, in this case, younger women for whom this is a deeply meaningful experience. So I think they show something in a bright light that has otherwise been fairly treated with skepticism and uncertainty for so many years, given all of the trouble, of course, that religion has been in, too, in different ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Women have always been part of the Catholic media landscape, from developing programming to managing communications to helping write and distribute diocese newspapers. Back in 1981, Mother Angelica established the Catholic Media Empire by launching EWTN, which turned into a global religious broadcasting network. She herself appeared in broadcasts, answering questions and giving advice from her rocking chair. Her show was revolutionary because it was so casual. The vibe wasn’t that different from what the Dominican Sisters are doing with their podcasts today. Mother Angelica was so influential that she herself has gotten the diva edit TikTok treatment, years after her passing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from TikTok user @giramoficiall]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Mother Angelica: I’ve always said, God was very, very good to some man when he gave me a religious vocation. [laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Mother Angelica was an outlier. Dr. Bruce says that historically, men were front and center in Catholic media. They were the voices of the church, speaking on Catholic radio, writing Catholic op-eds, and appearing on Catholic television broadcasts. Today, media has evolved, drastically. The great shift to digital has given others a chance to share their voices too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> And I think we’re seeing here an example of a group of religious sisters who has very wisely seen, ah, there’s a gap, there is an opening. The people are here, the messaging is over here. So we need to take the message and put it into these new spaces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Dominican Sisters have actually been working on their media presence for years. The podcast is just the latest in several efforts they’ve made to spread their message and fundraise, using the media to their advantage, like going on the Oprah Winfrey Show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Oprah correspondent Lisa Ling: Why did you want to pursue this life? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is a clip from their first appearance on Oprah in 2010. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister: God wanted me here, and he made it very clear to me.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lisa Ling: How do you know? Like, do you hear a voice?\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sister: It’s right here.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Five years after that appearance, Oprah aired an update and interviewed the Dominican Sisters of Mary. Some of them were actually viewers. They said they were inspired to answer the call after watching that first segment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Oprah Show]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister: Now we’re known as the Oprah nuns, so if you put into Google or any search engine the Oprah Nuns, we will come right up. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Obviously, virality is not a Catholic charism. The Dominican Sisters’ ultimate mission goes beyond getting on Oprah or building a TikTok following. They’re really focused on education and they’ve been incredibly digitally adept in that field too. They run Open Light Media, a subscription platform of Catholic educational content. And this is where things start to get complicated. Matthew Remski was also taken by the Sisters’ easy charm and joyful conversations. But as a cradle Catholic and writer who reports on religion and authoritarian extremism, he had to dig deeper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I think they really offer a fantastic package, and then they also hide what they believe too, and they have to, because if you really scratch the surface on what fairly conservative Catholic nuns believe, it’s not going to be appealing to a lot of the women that are actually really thrilled by contemplating this communal life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what isn’t reflected in the podcast clips going viral on TikTok? After the break, we’re driving into open light media and some of the ideology baked into its educational content. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. When we’re back, we are getting into the politics behind the clips. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab. What do the Dominican Sisters believe? While the sisters have definitely gotten a lot of attention for their viral success, others are looking beyond the charm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from TikTok user@antifascistdad]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Matthew Remski: Now the press coverage has focused on the vibes without a single question raised about their politics. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Matthew Remski again, a researcher and writer who reports on authoritarian extremism, spiritual influence, and religion. He’s critiqued the sisters on his own show, the Conspirituality Podcast, and on TikTok. He, too, grew up Catholic, in a very particular school of Catholic thought. That experience shaped his viewpoint on organized religion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> There’s a pugnacious part of me that says, yeah, I’m absolutely still Catholic, but I’m the kind of Catholic that I learned how to be initially when I was introduced to the church through liberation theology back in the 1970s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Liberation theology is a religious movement. It emphasizes not just serving the poor, but also dismantling social injustice and economic inequality. It’s a very political approach to religion. It actually originated in Latin American Marxist movements. And this is important, because this is central to Matthew’s criticism of Dominican Sisters Open Mic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I think that they’ve done an incredible job at providing people, women especially, younger women especially with a vision of, you know, productivity and communal life and shared purpose in the world that is also, you now, about shared resources. And I think they really put together an attractive vision of an alternative to the precarious. Uh, an alternative to, um, you know, Instagram and tech talk life. I also knew at the same time that they were, uh, concealing what they’re really about, uh in a particular way that, that I wanted to make clear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Because while the sisters talk about playing frisbee and cooking and the joys of communal living for a higher purpose, Matthew has qualms about the ideology of the Catholic order they serve under. Chief among his concerns is Open Light Media, the media company that produces their podcast. The podcast is actually just a side project. Open Light’s main focus is producing educational content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> If you look at their product page, that is their main output, right? They sell these courses to Catholic educators and homeschoolers. It is an anti-public education, anti-secular industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Open Light Media produces a faith-based Catholic alternative to something called social emotional learning. Social emotional learning is an educational framework that revolves around teaching children relationship building skills, responsible decision making, and emotional regulation. This method has been widely adopted by American public schools, many of which implement classroom-wide life skill lessons and daily check-ins, as well as individualized behavioral support for students who need it. There’s a lot of focus on identifying feelings, empathy for others, and affirmation, which has been criticized by some conservatives, including many Catholic organizations, who say \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> Look, you know, all of this touchy-feely, no-God-centered, secular, psychological stuff that you guys are doing with kids are really leaving them unanchored. They’re leading kids astray. They are not giving them a grounding of the truth of the gospel, which is that there are two genders or, you can’t really change your sex or whatever, or that it’s not really natural to be queer. If you’re going to be a queer, you can’t really act on it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They actually addressed this in the very first episode of Dominican Sisters Open Mic, when one sister interviewed Catholic psychologists about the dangers of secular education. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: I think Tik Tok was essentially responsible for this kind of transgender movement.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Brett Salkeld: Right.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: And creating a generation that had been manipulated\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Brett Salkeld: Right\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Dr. Karen Villa: to think about gender in this very relative way. We’re just leaving them in this state of confusion because they’ve been manipulated in this way.\u003c/em> \u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Brett Salkeld: Right. And then, and then when we put them in this state, and then we affirm. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of affirmation culture, as one of the podcast guests put it, Open Light’s educational programs focus on virtues and faith. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski:\u003c/strong> Which they believe should replace the secular version of social-emotional learning in public schools because they believe that social- emotional learning in public school is the kind of thing that just allows kids to explore themselves in a way that might make them understand that they’re trans. Like they’re using a kind of quasi-intellectual take on an educational practice to try to persuade people that in order to be a well-rounded teacher who nurtures well-rounded children, you really have to give them a kind of social-emotional context that’s based in God. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Of course, this conservative religious ideology isn’t obvious from the clips going viral on TikTok. As Matthew noted, the podcast didn’t blow up until Sister Miriam took the reins as host, and they pivoted from lengthy discussions on Catholic education to one-on-one interviews with other sisters about their own lives. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic]\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sister Mary Andre: Some people like to play scripture roulette, right? Do the, like, flip through the Bible and like finger point. I mean, that’s one way. Actually, sometimes God has really spoken to me in that way. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some people on ex-Catholic forums on Reddit have questioned the authenticity of the sisters’ joy. Commenters have speculated that they’re under pressure to come off as fun and that the podcast is just propaganda. And while Matthew agrees that the clips are propaganda for the Catholic Church, he doesn’t agree with all of the detractors’ assumptions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> I don’t want to dismiss them personally because they seem like really lovely people who, you know, I would love to hang out with. And I don’t t get any sense that anybody is trying to be deceptive or anybody is trying to be, you know, manipulative and recruiting. I think they are really presenting their best lives and I don t know how conscious they are of, you know, concealing the ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But what does bother him is that this portrayal of Catholicism is what consistently goes viral, a palatable version that isn’t upfront about a belief system that younger viewers on social media might find far less appealing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> And while they’re doing that, they are not, to my knowledge, engaging in any of the social justice work that generations of prior religious women in the United States have been engaged in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Religious sisters have taken on different types of social justice work throughout modern American history. In 1965, a group of Catholic sisters marched with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in Selma, Alabama to support voting rights for all. During the peak of the AIDS epidemic, Catholic sisters in Oakland fought to build affordable housing for patients who needed live-in medical care. In 2012, sisters known as the Nuns on the Bus traveled across the country in protest of federal budget cuts that would have affected vulnerable, low-income Americans. And more recently, religious sisters have been fighting ICE deportation efforts across the country, funding passports for children who’ve been separated from their deported parents. And organizing demonstrations outside of ICE detention centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> This is the liberation theology legacy that exists within Catholic religious life, which has now become a kind of minority demographic and now which is being outshadowed by the high production values of, you know, convents and monastic communities that have better social media skills and, you now, may well be supported by conservative Catholics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that glitzy, polished Catholic media costs money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> You need support for that. You need cultural support for that. And we also know that, you know, especially in the United States, wealthy Catholics are responsible for supporting all kinds of politicized reactionary religious efforts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We asked Paul Daly, Open Light Media’s Director of Marketing, about some of the critiques of the organization’s ideology. He wasn’t surprised. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> I mean, no matter what, if you’re going into the public space in any way, there’s going to be critiques, right? If somebody disagrees with something that the sisters say, the whole point is that the sisters are not saying necessarily that you have to agree with them in order to still listen to them. And keep in mind, a majority of these sisters are teachers. And so, they’re out throughout the country working at different schools. And of course, they work at Catholic schools, but you don’t have to be Catholic to go to Catholic school. So, they have tons of students, you know, who have different viewpoints. And so, they’re very used to interacting with people who disagree with them, even dislike them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But he did acknowledge that religious sisterhood is deeper than what viewers see in short vertical video clips. Committing to religious life is far from an easy choice. And for many, it comes with great personal sacrifice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> They are joyful and happy and you know, but we also don’t want to, you know, sell short just how hard they work. Cause it really is definitely not just hanging out playing frisbee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We followed up with Paul after our interview, giving him another opportunity to respond to critiques of Open Light Media and asking him whether the Dominican Sisters of Mary have engaged in any type of social justice work. We didn’t hear back though. So what does the sisters’ virality say about religious life in the U.S. though? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s a new tab. What is “nun girl summer” really about? While the Dominican Sisters of Mary kicked off “nun girl summer” earlier this year, Catholic influence appears to have made waves in pop culture across America, both on and offline. Convents in New York are reporting long waitlists for prayer retreats. Birkenstock rolled out these stop-motion ads this summer, featuring nuns doing hopscotch in slides. Catholic Kitsch has made a comeback. Cutesy, nostalgic, novelty prayer candles and glittery Jesus statues are prime meme material. In other words, Catholicism is really up right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> My mom, a baby boomer, she grew up in a very Catholic world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Tricia Bruce again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> And I think for a lot of Catholics who grew up in that world, your neighborhood was Catholic. You called your neighborhood by the name of your parish. Oftentimes, this was very intertwined with ethnic identity. religion, Catholicism was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Fast forward, and religious life in the US looks very different now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Many kids today, of course, are being raised in non-religious households, non- religious families. So. Religion is less of a forefront reality in home, in the neighborhood, in the broader culture. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If organized religion is no longer mainstream, then… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> It makes it feel countercultural. It makes that look different. It makes it feels intriguing and mysterious or maybe even a way to connect to something bigger than oneself in a world that feels so isolating and lonely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Think about the vintage marketplace today. For some, their grail is a 90s-era purse that someone’s grandma probably has in her closet. For others, it’s a mid-century table lamp that was once common in every university library. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> They’re a treasure to one generation. They get thrown out as trash to the next. And then suddenly, another generation looks around and is like, oh, this is super cool. There’s something here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’re trying to dig around for something authentic and real. And in that, there becomes… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> An opening there for an intrigue around religion that I think is likewise helping to give Catholicism this kind of moment. It is certainly an invitation to learn more and for some to take action. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Bruce says that people have been distrustful and skeptical of religion and religious institutions for valid reasons. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Tricia Bruce:\u003c/strong> Because, of course, you have instances of abuse or discrimination or inauthenticity that have really been a reckoning for many institutions. And I think now the religion and other institutions are undergoing a massive project to rebuild trust and people talk about looking for authenticity. And so I think the podcast by these Dominican sisters is in some ways a reflection of authenticity or a desire to showcase a more transparent experience and message around religion and a re-invitation to see as trustworthy, something like religion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sister Thu agrees. In her research at CARA at Georgetown, she’s found that Millennials and Gen Z are reporting historic levels of isolation and anxiety. The Dominican Sisters podcast emerged in the midst of that cold. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> It is responding directly to a hunger for belonging and meaning, especially among the younger generations, as they always search for meaning and real connection. We are seeing a remarkable spiritual surge. Dioceses and campus ministries across the country reported significant surges in baptisms and new candidates last Easter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She says that what the sisters are doing with their podcast is really in line with what the whole universal Catholic Church is doing. CARA reports that adults 18 to 35 spend hours online searching for connection, so it makes sense to reach them where they’re at. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sister Thu:\u003c/strong> And that is the digital evangelization tool in the modern town square, which today happens to be TikTok and YouTube feeds. Right, so by showing up in these digital spaces, the sisters fulfill their religious mandate to meet believers, you know, seekers and non-believers alike where they already spend their time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Is it actually bringing anyone into religious sisterhood though? Well, it takes a really long time to become a sister. It’s a years long process. But while it’s too early to tell if podcast listeners will be inspired to join the Catholic order, like Oprah viewers were 16 years ago, there is a lot of interest in it. Paul from Open Light Media said that after going viral, the Dominican sisters have seen an uptick in young women reaching out for discernment. That’s a process of examining whether it’s God’s will to do something, like becoming a nun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> And there’s actually a link specifically for that because we saw that happening on our link tree. The process of becoming a sister is very drawn out. It takes years to become a fully professed sister. I anticipate that 10, 15 years down the line, we will probably have a handful of sisters who first heard about the order from the podcast. I really do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But Matthew Remski urges people to look beyond the viral clips, the fan edits, and the esthetic mood boards, to really investigate what religious sisterhood means and what the organization, the viral content is coming from, stands for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Matthew Remski: \u003c/strong> Religious life is punk rock. There’s something really cool about it. And let’s just be clear about what it all entails, right? I would say that what they are showing is the delight they have in communal life. And they’re not showing what the ideological price is for that. Like, I think most people will watch the clip about Ultimate Frisbee or any other activity that they have or like Bingo Night or Games Night or whatever they’re talking about, they’re talking how much fun they have together. And that’s really wonderful and heartwarming. But I think that when you understand that, oh, they actually have a straightforward Catholic ideology that’s driving their faith and their intellectual output and you learn what that ideology teaches and you learned that it’s exclusionary, the conviviality, the thing that people are attracted to, I just wanna say it comes at a price and you gotta know what the price is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This doesn’t mean that you can’t watch the sisters’ content or find solace in their joy. Will I stop saying, ‘sister, yes’ every time I agree with my literal sister? No. But it is worth considering where the content on your feed really comes from and digging deeper beyond viral clips, even if their laughter is infectious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>[Clip from Dominican Sisters Open Mic] \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>[Laughter] Sister, yes! [laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> With that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon, additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is executive director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode includes clips from Open Light Media and Matthew Remske, AKA Anti-Fascist Dad, and the Oprah Winfrey Show. It also includes clips from the TikTok accounts @Whsprtz, @whoismikecentanni, @Rag_dti, @thawestt, @editzz103d, @enzoiio, and @giramoficial. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran. And recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paul Dailey:\u003c/strong> It’s really meant for people who, maybe they grew up Catholic and they just don’t really go to church anymore. Maybe they grew up without any religion at all and they see a sister pop up in their TikTok feed and they’re like, I didn’t realize that nuns had podcasts, which is a pretty common comment that we get.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, KQED’s series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guest:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ameliagmiller.com/\">Amelia Miller\u003c/a>, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101795/are-chatbots-harming-our-relationships\">Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/a> — Lesley McClurg, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s \u003cem>Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/em> From Inside Love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships? — Lesley McClurg, KQED"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101795/are-chatbots-harming-our-relationships\">Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/a> — Lesley McClurg, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s \u003cem>Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/em> From Inside Love. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"title": "Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships? | Close All Tabs Presents | KQED",
"description": "Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, KQED’s series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guest:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ameliagmiller.com/\">Amelia Miller\u003c/a>, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101795/are-chatbots-harming-our-relationships\">Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/a> — Lesley McClurg, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s \u003cem>Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/em> From Inside Love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"headTitle": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk? | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"Dr. Sungat Grewal, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr. — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, STAT News",
"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains — Katie Berohn, ELLE",
"Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning — Savannah Sobrevilla, GQ ",
"Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained — Carly Mallenbaum, Axios",
"Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug — Sara Kitnick, LA Times Studios",
"The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry — Kara Nesvig, Allure",
"The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, Skin Cancer Foundation"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Morgan Sung: What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "Gentrification is changing cities across America, forcing people from neighborhoods they have long called home. Call them the displaced. Now those priced out of the Bay Area are looking for a better life in an unlikely place. American Suburb follows this migration to one California town along the Delta, 45 miles from San Francisco. But is this once sleepy suburb ready for them?",
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},
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"id": "baycurious",
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"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
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},
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},
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},
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"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
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"order": 8
},
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},
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"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"order": 1
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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}
},
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"meta": {
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"source": "WNYC"
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
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]
}
},
"restaurantDataById": {},
"restaurantIdsSorted": [],
"error": null
},
"userAgentReducer": {
"userAgent": "Mozilla/5.0 AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko; compatible; ClaudeBot/1.0; +claudebot@anthropic.com)",
"isBot": true
},
"requestOutcomesReducer": {
"notFound": []
},
"navPromosReducer": {
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"fetchFailed": false,
"hasFetched": true,
"promos": {
"news": {},
"podcasts-radio": {},
"video-tv": {},
"events": {},
"support": {}
}
}
}