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At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A full transcript will be available 1–2 workdays after the episode’s publication.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "death-robotaxis-and-a-cat-named-kitkat",
"title": "Death, Robotaxis, and a Cat Named KitKat",
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"headTitle": "Death, Robotaxis, and a Cat Named KitKat | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5106693547\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/sjohnson\">Sydney Johnson\u003c/a>, reporter at KQED \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/author/oscarp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/joe-eskenazi/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe Eskenazi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, managing editor at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/10/kitkat-mission-liquor-store-mascot-and-16th-st-ambassador-killed-on-monday/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat, liquor store mascot and ‘16th St. ambassador,’ killed — allegedly by Waymo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Oscar Palma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">San Francisco Supervisor Calls for Robotaxi Reform After Waymo Kills Neighborhood Cat \u003c/a>\u003ci>— Sydney Johnson, \u003ci>KQED\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/05/us/waymo-kit-kat-san-francisco.html\">How Kit Kat Was Killed: Video Shows What a Waymo Couldn’t See \u003c/a>— Heather Knight, \u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/12/30/1222083720/driverless-cars-gm-cruise-waymo-san-francisco-accidents\">Driverless car startup Cruise’s no good, terrible year\u003c/a> — Dara Kerr, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2024/11/14/cruise-fine-investigation-dragging-robotaxi/\">Cruise admits lying to feds about dragging woman in San Francisco\u003c/a> — Kevin Truong, \u003ci>The San Francisco Standard\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/12/waymo-confirms-its-car-hit-dog-in-western-addition/\">Waymo hits dog in S.F. weeks after killing Mission bodega cat\u003c/a> — Kelly Waldron, \u003ci>Mission Local\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kron4.com/news/technology-ai/dog-hit-by-waymo-in-sf-put-down-by-family-after-suffering-severe-pelvic-trauma/\">Dog hit by Waymo in SF put down by family after suffering ‘severe pelvic trauma’\u003c/a> — Alex Baker, \u003ci>KRON4\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/business/2025/11/24/the-self-driving-taxi-revolution-begins-at-last\">The self-driving taxi revolution begins at last\u003c/a> — \u003ci>The Economist \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat! KitKat!” ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, KQED reporter Sydney Johnson covered an event in her neighborhood, that was part memorial service, part rally, in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of residents gathered in front of Randa’s Market to remember KitKat, the store’s beloved 9-year-old tabby cat. KitKat was more than a bodega cat — he was known as the Mayor of 16th street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There were dozens of people there, you know, chitchatting. uh, many of them lived in the neighborhood and were giving each other hugs and, you know, talking about memories that they had of walking by the market after a late night and petting KitKat or, you know, maybe on their way to work and, and giving him a little scratch, uh, when they popped in for a drink in the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death was particularly devastating for the neighborhood, because it wasn’t old age, or sickness, or even human cruelty that killed him. It was a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s the autonomous rideshare service, also known as a robotaxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’d say the vibe of this event was, you know, both. Mournful and, and somber. but also really angry and, and focused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat was struck and killed in late October, and in the days after, locals mourned him by turning the tree in front of Randa’s Market into a makeshift shrine. Someone had attached a framed photo of KitKat to the tree, and others adorned the frame with flowers and a cat-sized crown. The base of the tree was overflowing with candles, bouquets, handwritten messages, and of course, cat treats. People even scattered KitKat’s namesake candy around the shrine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the rally happened a week later, grief had become anger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But our local supervisor, you know, took some of that anger and outrage and. Really just said, this is a moment where we have to think about these technologies that are being deployed all around us \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder at the rally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jackie Fielder at Rally]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The future of autonomous vehicles should be decided by people, not tech, oligarchs and their politicians. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience Member: Yes!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackie Fielder: Thank you all so much and rest in peace, KitKat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death sparked nationwide outrage. He’s become the face of resistance to robotaxis, AI, and the tech industry as a whole. In death, he’s become a viral sensation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Australia News]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a new social justice movement in San Francisco, sparked by the death of a beloved neighborhood cat that was killed by a driverless car.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Inside Edition] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now fans of the adored feline are taking to social media demanding hashtag justice for Kit Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Tiktok]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are mourning a true pillar of the community and who they call the mayor of 16th Street,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo, meanwhile, recently announced its expansion across California. The company has plans to deploy its robotaxis in San Diego, Sacramento, and lots in between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it kind of became, you know, more than just this cat who died. This is actually now something where people who have been, you know, nervous or uneasy about autonomous vehicles, uh, really had a moment where they were saying, Hey, let’s actually think about how we can avoid this kind of tragedy, uh, especially if it could get even worse in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo says its autonomous vehicles are safer than human drivers — at least, they have a lower crash rate. But these cars aren’t infallible. KitKat may be the most viral victim of a robotaxi crash, but he’s not the only one. His death has raised some major concerns about safety, especially as Waymo and other robotaxi companies vie to compete with human-driven rideshares. The loss of this little bodega cat might have sparked a movement … but can these giant tech companies really be reined in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymos, and robotaxis as a whole, have been pretty controversial since they started hitting streets in 2020. While robotaxi supporters praise the convenience and supposed safety of self-driving cars, detractors have real concerns. They threaten jobs, they disrupt traffic, they can’t make the same decisions that a human driver can, which makes them a nuisance at best and at worst, a public safety hazard. Plus, they represent the tech industry’s rapid encroachment on local communities. Like we covered in one of our very first episodes of this show, it’s what makes Waymos so easy to vandalize: they’re a physical, tangible outlet for this collective anxiety and rage against Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Los Angeles, Dodgers fans celebrated their team’s World Series win by spray painting and smashing Waymos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the vandalized cars went viral, with captions like “Justice for KitKat” and “Revenge for the bodega cat.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why did this particular incident kick off such a firestorm? To unpack that, we need to return to the night KitKat was killed. What do we know, and what don’t we know, about what happened? Time to open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Oscar Palma, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Every time I go to the Roxy, I would always make a point to stop by and then say hi to Kit Kat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Oscar Palma, a reporter at Mission Local, a news site that covers San Francisco. He was one of the first journalists to break the news of KitKat’s death. The Roxie is a local theater that shows indie and arthouse films. This area is a bustling social hub — there are bars, restaurants, comedy clubs and KitKat lived in the heart of it, in the corner store right next to the Roxie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were laughing and saying we call him the boss because he was checking on everyone, making sure that everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the night of the incident, KitKat was doing what he did best: sauntering up and down the street, greeting bar patrons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was Monday night. I believe it was 11:40 pm and two witnesses who came up to me and they say, “Hey, we saw everything that happened.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They came out of the bar, and so they saw the Waymo was picking up some passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> While the Waymo idled at the curb, KitKat darted under the hood, settling in front of the car’s front tire. A bystander noticed the cat, and rushed over to lure him out. She recounted the night in an interview with the New York Times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Meg Brigman in TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bent down, his ears were back. He looked very stressed. I said, “KitKat, come here, come here.” Being so close to the car, I didn’t expect it to drive away.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that KitKat stood in front of the tire for about seven seconds, before he got spooked and retreated further under the car. The Waymo didn’t appear to sense KitKat, or the person crouched in front of the car. Instead, as surveillance footage obtained by the New York Times shows, the Waymo pulled forward. Here’s Oscar again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he ran over, um, half of his body. And so Kit Kat, um, made it on its own back to the sidewalk. But, um, our witnesses saw everything and they describe a very awful sight to see. Uh, pretty much seeing the last moment of KitKat being alive, and they say that the Waymo never really stopped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat dragged himself to the sidewalk, but was gravely injured and spitting blood. A bartender called KitKat’s owner and rushed the cat to a nearby animal hospital, where he died.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that Mission Local requested a copy of Waymo’s footage from the accident, but the company didn’t respond. Here’s Joe Eskenazi, managing editor at Mission Local. He joined us for the conversation with Oscar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So clearly, you know, the witnesses told Oscar that the cat had been idling in front of the car for seven seconds. Waymo simply said, the cat darted underneath the car. Both of those things can be true, but by omitting the first part, you’re not telling the full story. So, you know, presumably it’s all on film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo touts its safety record as significantly better than human drivers. The company reported that throughout June 2025, Waymos had 80% fewer injury-causing crashes. But autonomous vehicles aren’t able to replicate human thinking and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For their story, Mission Local spoke with several experts on autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the problem, is that human beings have what’s known as object permanence. When you hide your face from a baby, you know the baby is surprised to see that you can take your \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fa\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hand away and, and your face is still there. But you know, children who are even very young understand that your face doesn’t disappear. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo cars don’t know that. Waymo cars don’t have the computational power, as amazing as they are, to know that the cat that, uh, was in front of the car for seven seconds and then walked under the car where there are not sensors is still a factor. You can’t really have the sensors on the bottom of the car because they get dirtied up so quickly. If you’ve ever touched the tires on your car, they’re really dirty, so they get dirtied up so quickly that you can’t really have sensors there. So, you know, these cars are susceptible to small objects like this being underneath the car.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat is not a one-off incident. Earlier this month, just weeks after a Waymo killed KitKat, another Waymo ran over an unleashed dog in San Francisco, about ten minutes from where KitKat was struck and killed. The dog’s owners decided to put him down due to severe pelvic injuries. Waymo reportedly offered to assist with the dog’s medical expenses, and offered to cover the cost of adopting a new pet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People can say that human beings don’t drive as well as these vehicles. But we can also say that we’re seeing a pattern here of the autonomous vehicles being susceptible to small objects underneath them or even large objects underneath them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A similar incident happened with Cruise just a few years ago. If this is your first time hearing about Cruise, it’s probably because the company shut down last year.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cruise was the robotaxi service owned by General Motors. They were actually the first company to receive California’s Driverless Deployment Permit, in 2022. They had a modest fleet, a couple hundred cars in San Francisco, and planned to expand to other cities. They were actually bigger than Waymo back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until, in 2023, when one of Cruise’s driverless cars hit a pedestrian. Instead of stopping, the car ran her over and continued driving, dragging her for about 20 feet until it finally stopped at a curb , still on top of the pedestrian. She was critically injured in the crash. The California DMV revoked Cruise’s license and ordered the company to suspend operations in the state. That was in late 2023 and Waymo opened to the public in California in 2024. But KitKat’s death rehashes the same concerns that people had over Cruise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These incidents are, you know, kind of like, uh, a broad daylight shooting in a suburban neighborhood. It’s something that is unusual. We have seen that the cars are not infallible and what’s worse there, there are holes in the technology. Not knowing there’s a person, or in this case, a small animal under your car, strikes me as something that you could improve on. It strikes me as a safety hazard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Waymo’s been facing a bit of a PR crisis over KitKat’s death. It doesn’t help that on the same day of the accident, just hours before KitKat was fatally struck by a Waymo, the company’s co-CEO Tekedra Mawakana appeared on TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage. This exchange went viral: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirsten Korosec: Will society accept a death potentially caused by a robot? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Takedra Mawakana: I think that society will, I think the challenge for us is making sure that society has a high enough bar on safety that companies are held to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after those comments, the company faced immense backlash when news of KitKat’s death broke. Waymo made a statement four days after KitKat died. They apologized and said they’d make a donation to a local animal rights organization in KitKat’s honor. But skepticism about the safety risks of autonomous technology has only continued to build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those are all things to be concerned about, regardless of how many cats are struck by human drivers every day. And regardless of how safe Waymo is, by and large. Uh, frankly, I have to tell you, I’ve been more than a little disappointed by the simplistic whataboutism of people who simply wanna shrug their shoulders and say ‘They’re safer than humans. What do you want?’ I think that it could do better. I think that both the corporation and the vehicles could do better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out a lot of other people feel the same way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What sparks anger and movements is not always what you think it is. In this case, yes, a cat was run over, which happens all the time, every day. But you know, this strikes me as being, uh, a tipping point type situation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This backlash is coming at a time when Waymo is really expanding. In parts of the Bay Area and Southern California, they’re even allowed on freeways. Last month, amid the KitKat backlash, Waymo launched in Miami, with plans to roll out its cars in ten more cities over the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear there’s a lot of buzz around Waymos. But the critics are gaining some steam, thanks to the tragedy that befell KitKat. And that brings us back to the rally, in front of Randa’s Market, a week after KitKat was killed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat, KitKat, KitKat”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how are organizers, advocates, and politicians using the momentum from this incident to push back against the ever-expanding reach of self-driving car companies?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok we’re back. Let’s open a new tab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat the tech martyr\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a week after KitKat’s death, San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder hosted the memorial rally for KitKat, in front of the corner store he’d called home for years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Jackie Fielder: Local communities deserve a say over our streets and over the technologies that affect us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Fielder was one of several speakers at the makeshift podium. An officer from the local Teamsters chapter raised concerns about autonomous vehicles taking human jobs. A public transit advocate questioned why the city was investing so heavily in robotaxis, while San Francisco’s trains and buses face a huge funding deficit. And a few spoke out about the safety issues. They came from different backgrounds, but shared the same point: why didn’t their community get a say in allowing Waymos?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s how Justin Dole, a bar owner and president of the organization Small Business Forward, put it when it was his turn to speak at the rally: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>Justin Dole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s why people have been so profoundly disturbed by KitKat’s death. The mayor of this space, as he was known, was taken from us by a technology that none of us asked for and crucially, to the point of this resolution, none of us consented to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s at the heart of a new legislative push from Supervisor Fielder. KQED reporter Sydney Johnson, who we heard from at the top of the episode, has been reporting on the rideshare industry here in California. She actually lives in the Mission — KitKat’s home turf. Sydney’s going to walk us through this legislative battle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been no shortage of, you know, efforts in Sacramento to try and carve out laws around robotaxis, which is this really relatively new technology and, and area of law also. And a lot of those have faced, you know, lobbying and have just had a pretty difficult time getting through the legislature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the rally, our local supervisor, Jackie Fielder, along with other community and labor leaders were calling on state lawmakers to revisit legislation that was actually proposed last year, but failed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sydney’s talking about SB-915, a California senate bill that would have allowed local cities to vote on whether to allow robotaxis on their streets. Supporters said that it gives residents more agency. Critics of the bill said that it would make rides between different towns or municipalities an absolute nightmare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest, uh, points of opposition to that piece of legislation was that it would create this, you know, really messy patchwork of different policies where maybe you have a robo taxi that can get you around one tiny city, but you can’t actually get to your destination, which is two towns over because this city in the middle voted against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So that ultimately failed. It did not get the support it needed to pass. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">owever, there was still a lot of interest in finding a way to still provide some, you know, democratic framework for this technology, which currently for robotaxi companies, they only need to receive permits from the state level in order to operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they’ve received that for multiple cities and California and a few other places around the country. But these lawmakers who were supporting, uh, this law last year and, and now Jackie Fielder who’s asking lawmakers to revisit it, wanna see the effort not completely die since it didn’t work around city to city regulation, but are hoping to kind of broaden that a little bit at looking at the county level. So having the county of San Francisco or the county of Alameda, you know, these various kind of larger jurisdictions, voters there can decide whether robo taxis can operate on their streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a city supervisor, Jackie Fielder can’t introduce state legislation herself, but she’s still using this moment to shine a spotlight on the issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you talk about how lawmakers and public transit advocates are using this momentum from this cat’s death to push for new action around Waymo’s and other Robotaxis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s interesting about this story and about Kit Kat is it seems to have gotten bigger than California, and certainly bigger than San Francisco where this happened. Um. There were stories about KitKat in the Washington Post, in the New York Times. We were seeing stories on CNN about this cat who was killed by a Waymo and just the heartbreak that came as a result of that. And so local lawmakers here in San Francisco really latched onto that. You know, we, we see this with all different types of legislation when there’s a viral moment and a lawmaker might try to attach some sort of policy idea to that moment and, and, you know, kind of ride some of the energy and life that that story has via that virality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and we certainly saw that here with KitKat and how supervisor Jackie Fielder said, Hey, we need to start talking about this again before things get worse. But, you know, some tragedy has already happened here. And voters, at least who were showing up to this rally, uh, were pretty open about the fact that they wanted to see some sort of either restrictions or at least have the option to vote on whether Waymo’s can operate and, and roam the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, It still remains to be seen if lawmakers in Sacramento are going to pick this up. Um, but certainly here there’s been some, uh, support bubbling for it. I think that it has really just become a symbol for so many different things. Whether it’s concerns about AI taking jobs or safety, or sustainability with transit. You know, I think a lot of people have been able to impress their message onto KitKat’s death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These critiques of automated technology have been around for decades. But it’s only recently that they’ve taken a hold in mainstream, public conversation as autonomous vehicles advance and spread across the country. Waymo may be leading the race, but competitors are sprinting to cash in on the robotaxi wars. Uber, Zoox, Nvdia, Tesla, and like, every car manufacturer are all investing in and testing and launching their own versions of a driverless ride service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe, the managing editor at Mission Local, says KitKat became a flashpoint for these larger tensions playing out in San Francisco and beyond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just on the base level, this, what you’re describing here is a proxy war between the technology companies and the Teamsters unions. And so you can basically see, you know, which politicians are more aligned with the big money tech companies. And Waymo is owned by Google, which, you know, uh, draws a lot of water in this town to use the Big Lebowski line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, they’re, they are, they are big players, you know, with, with no small amount of lobbying money and no small amount of interest in this state and in this county San Francisco. Is it possible that in the future this legislation could be adopted? I get the sad feeling that something terrible needs to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oscar, the Mission Local reporter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, I, I think about just in my everyday life, um, like a cyclist usually has to die for the city to build the proper infrastructure, um, in a section of the city. And it’s, it’s sad that we have to get to that point to, to see the changes that a lot of us want to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So clearly, KitKat has become a symbol of something bigger — let’s talk about what his death means. How about one last tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard typing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s legacy \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This month, Randa’s Market welcomed a new bodega cat: Coco, a white six-month-old kitten, with a black nose and ink-tipped ears. She was a gift, from a neighbor to the store’s owner. But KitKat hasn’t been forgotten — if anything, he’s remembered as a folk hero, who represented a version of San Francisco that doesn’t exist anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, talking to people who lived on 16th Street, talking to bartenders around there, you know, people who just feel like their community has been changing, you know, for decades really, but especially in the last few years it’s felt like so much has really accelerated and just seeing this clash of this hyper new technology. These like, you know, sleek driverless cars, quite literally crush a bodega cat is just such a stark image of seeing, you know, this sort of San Francisco that wants to resist all the ways that technology is now quite literally displacing people, animals, you know, a, a city that was once affordable to artists and creatives and teachers and, you know, working class folks.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole story really kind of characterized I think some of that disappointment and sadness that people have about having no say or no control over the quote unquote progress that’s happening around them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, knowing that, there’s a real ironic twist to this story. KitKat, the adorable face of resistance to encroaching tech, is now also a meme coin. And yes for the uninitiated, that’s a cryptocurrency thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now you know there is an altar on 16th Street for KitKat, but he will forever be immortalized on the blockchain as a crypto coin also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KITKATCOIN launched without the knowledge of KitKat’s actual family, but the store owner’s son has since taken over. He says he donated the first $10,000 of proceeds to an animal rights group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I believe that it hit its peak on Halloween, which was just a few days after KitKat’s death. Um, but pretty shortly after that the value of this crypto coin just plummeted. Uh, which if you’ve followed these meme coins before is a pretty typical story. But I think with this, you know, it really. Just sort of epitomizes the virality of this story and how it took on a life of its own online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s KitKat the tech martyr and KitKat the meme coin, immortalized on the blockchain. In the Mission, locals just remember KitKat the bodega cat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people would remember him first as a friend, uh, second as a member of that community. I think KitKat encompassed everything that this, like one block of resistance,in the mission, um, against, um, waves of gentrification. I always think about this block in a very romantic old school San Francisco way. You have this like feeling of like people mourning this loss together and this like very, um, deep connection that everyone had with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like I went to report the next night. Uh, and I went to Delirium and people were taking shots for KitKat. You know, like Delirium is right next to the liquor store. if you had been there, you would’ve seen the mood in the bar that night. Everyone was really quiet. Everyone was really sad, and people were taking shots for KitKat left and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pour one out for KitKat. We’d usually close all these tabs, but today? Let’s leave his open a little longer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the way — Close All Tabs is taking a break for the holidays. We’ll see you in the new year, with brand new deep dives! For now, we’re wrapping up this year — in honor of our friend KitKat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva, Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Death, Robotaxis, and a Cat Named KitKat | KQED",
"description": "When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.",
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"socialDescription": "When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5106693547\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/sjohnson\">Sydney Johnson\u003c/a>, reporter at KQED \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/author/oscarp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/joe-eskenazi/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe Eskenazi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, managing editor at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/10/kitkat-mission-liquor-store-mascot-and-16th-st-ambassador-killed-on-monday/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat, liquor store mascot and ‘16th St. ambassador,’ killed — allegedly by Waymo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Oscar Palma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">San Francisco Supervisor Calls for Robotaxi Reform After Waymo Kills Neighborhood Cat \u003c/a>\u003ci>— Sydney Johnson, \u003ci>KQED\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/05/us/waymo-kit-kat-san-francisco.html\">How Kit Kat Was Killed: Video Shows What a Waymo Couldn’t See \u003c/a>— Heather Knight, \u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/12/30/1222083720/driverless-cars-gm-cruise-waymo-san-francisco-accidents\">Driverless car startup Cruise’s no good, terrible year\u003c/a> — Dara Kerr, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2024/11/14/cruise-fine-investigation-dragging-robotaxi/\">Cruise admits lying to feds about dragging woman in San Francisco\u003c/a> — Kevin Truong, \u003ci>The San Francisco Standard\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/12/waymo-confirms-its-car-hit-dog-in-western-addition/\">Waymo hits dog in S.F. weeks after killing Mission bodega cat\u003c/a> — Kelly Waldron, \u003ci>Mission Local\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kron4.com/news/technology-ai/dog-hit-by-waymo-in-sf-put-down-by-family-after-suffering-severe-pelvic-trauma/\">Dog hit by Waymo in SF put down by family after suffering ‘severe pelvic trauma’\u003c/a> — Alex Baker, \u003ci>KRON4\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/business/2025/11/24/the-self-driving-taxi-revolution-begins-at-last\">The self-driving taxi revolution begins at last\u003c/a> — \u003ci>The Economist \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat! KitKat!” ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, KQED reporter Sydney Johnson covered an event in her neighborhood, that was part memorial service, part rally, in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of residents gathered in front of Randa’s Market to remember KitKat, the store’s beloved 9-year-old tabby cat. KitKat was more than a bodega cat — he was known as the Mayor of 16th street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There were dozens of people there, you know, chitchatting. uh, many of them lived in the neighborhood and were giving each other hugs and, you know, talking about memories that they had of walking by the market after a late night and petting KitKat or, you know, maybe on their way to work and, and giving him a little scratch, uh, when they popped in for a drink in the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death was particularly devastating for the neighborhood, because it wasn’t old age, or sickness, or even human cruelty that killed him. It was a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s the autonomous rideshare service, also known as a robotaxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’d say the vibe of this event was, you know, both. Mournful and, and somber. but also really angry and, and focused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat was struck and killed in late October, and in the days after, locals mourned him by turning the tree in front of Randa’s Market into a makeshift shrine. Someone had attached a framed photo of KitKat to the tree, and others adorned the frame with flowers and a cat-sized crown. The base of the tree was overflowing with candles, bouquets, handwritten messages, and of course, cat treats. People even scattered KitKat’s namesake candy around the shrine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the rally happened a week later, grief had become anger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But our local supervisor, you know, took some of that anger and outrage and. Really just said, this is a moment where we have to think about these technologies that are being deployed all around us \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder at the rally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jackie Fielder at Rally]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The future of autonomous vehicles should be decided by people, not tech, oligarchs and their politicians. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience Member: Yes!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackie Fielder: Thank you all so much and rest in peace, KitKat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death sparked nationwide outrage. He’s become the face of resistance to robotaxis, AI, and the tech industry as a whole. In death, he’s become a viral sensation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Australia News]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a new social justice movement in San Francisco, sparked by the death of a beloved neighborhood cat that was killed by a driverless car.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Inside Edition] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now fans of the adored feline are taking to social media demanding hashtag justice for Kit Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Tiktok]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are mourning a true pillar of the community and who they call the mayor of 16th Street,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo, meanwhile, recently announced its expansion across California. The company has plans to deploy its robotaxis in San Diego, Sacramento, and lots in between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it kind of became, you know, more than just this cat who died. This is actually now something where people who have been, you know, nervous or uneasy about autonomous vehicles, uh, really had a moment where they were saying, Hey, let’s actually think about how we can avoid this kind of tragedy, uh, especially if it could get even worse in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo says its autonomous vehicles are safer than human drivers — at least, they have a lower crash rate. But these cars aren’t infallible. KitKat may be the most viral victim of a robotaxi crash, but he’s not the only one. His death has raised some major concerns about safety, especially as Waymo and other robotaxi companies vie to compete with human-driven rideshares. The loss of this little bodega cat might have sparked a movement … but can these giant tech companies really be reined in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymos, and robotaxis as a whole, have been pretty controversial since they started hitting streets in 2020. While robotaxi supporters praise the convenience and supposed safety of self-driving cars, detractors have real concerns. They threaten jobs, they disrupt traffic, they can’t make the same decisions that a human driver can, which makes them a nuisance at best and at worst, a public safety hazard. Plus, they represent the tech industry’s rapid encroachment on local communities. Like we covered in one of our very first episodes of this show, it’s what makes Waymos so easy to vandalize: they’re a physical, tangible outlet for this collective anxiety and rage against Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Los Angeles, Dodgers fans celebrated their team’s World Series win by spray painting and smashing Waymos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the vandalized cars went viral, with captions like “Justice for KitKat” and “Revenge for the bodega cat.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why did this particular incident kick off such a firestorm? To unpack that, we need to return to the night KitKat was killed. What do we know, and what don’t we know, about what happened? Time to open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Oscar Palma, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Every time I go to the Roxy, I would always make a point to stop by and then say hi to Kit Kat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Oscar Palma, a reporter at Mission Local, a news site that covers San Francisco. He was one of the first journalists to break the news of KitKat’s death. The Roxie is a local theater that shows indie and arthouse films. This area is a bustling social hub — there are bars, restaurants, comedy clubs and KitKat lived in the heart of it, in the corner store right next to the Roxie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were laughing and saying we call him the boss because he was checking on everyone, making sure that everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the night of the incident, KitKat was doing what he did best: sauntering up and down the street, greeting bar patrons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was Monday night. I believe it was 11:40 pm and two witnesses who came up to me and they say, “Hey, we saw everything that happened.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They came out of the bar, and so they saw the Waymo was picking up some passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> While the Waymo idled at the curb, KitKat darted under the hood, settling in front of the car’s front tire. A bystander noticed the cat, and rushed over to lure him out. She recounted the night in an interview with the New York Times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Meg Brigman in TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bent down, his ears were back. He looked very stressed. I said, “KitKat, come here, come here.” Being so close to the car, I didn’t expect it to drive away.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that KitKat stood in front of the tire for about seven seconds, before he got spooked and retreated further under the car. The Waymo didn’t appear to sense KitKat, or the person crouched in front of the car. Instead, as surveillance footage obtained by the New York Times shows, the Waymo pulled forward. Here’s Oscar again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he ran over, um, half of his body. And so Kit Kat, um, made it on its own back to the sidewalk. But, um, our witnesses saw everything and they describe a very awful sight to see. Uh, pretty much seeing the last moment of KitKat being alive, and they say that the Waymo never really stopped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat dragged himself to the sidewalk, but was gravely injured and spitting blood. A bartender called KitKat’s owner and rushed the cat to a nearby animal hospital, where he died.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that Mission Local requested a copy of Waymo’s footage from the accident, but the company didn’t respond. Here’s Joe Eskenazi, managing editor at Mission Local. He joined us for the conversation with Oscar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So clearly, you know, the witnesses told Oscar that the cat had been idling in front of the car for seven seconds. Waymo simply said, the cat darted underneath the car. Both of those things can be true, but by omitting the first part, you’re not telling the full story. So, you know, presumably it’s all on film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo touts its safety record as significantly better than human drivers. The company reported that throughout June 2025, Waymos had 80% fewer injury-causing crashes. But autonomous vehicles aren’t able to replicate human thinking and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For their story, Mission Local spoke with several experts on autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the problem, is that human beings have what’s known as object permanence. When you hide your face from a baby, you know the baby is surprised to see that you can take your \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fa\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hand away and, and your face is still there. But you know, children who are even very young understand that your face doesn’t disappear. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo cars don’t know that. Waymo cars don’t have the computational power, as amazing as they are, to know that the cat that, uh, was in front of the car for seven seconds and then walked under the car where there are not sensors is still a factor. You can’t really have the sensors on the bottom of the car because they get dirtied up so quickly. If you’ve ever touched the tires on your car, they’re really dirty, so they get dirtied up so quickly that you can’t really have sensors there. So, you know, these cars are susceptible to small objects like this being underneath the car.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat is not a one-off incident. Earlier this month, just weeks after a Waymo killed KitKat, another Waymo ran over an unleashed dog in San Francisco, about ten minutes from where KitKat was struck and killed. The dog’s owners decided to put him down due to severe pelvic injuries. Waymo reportedly offered to assist with the dog’s medical expenses, and offered to cover the cost of adopting a new pet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People can say that human beings don’t drive as well as these vehicles. But we can also say that we’re seeing a pattern here of the autonomous vehicles being susceptible to small objects underneath them or even large objects underneath them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A similar incident happened with Cruise just a few years ago. If this is your first time hearing about Cruise, it’s probably because the company shut down last year.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cruise was the robotaxi service owned by General Motors. They were actually the first company to receive California’s Driverless Deployment Permit, in 2022. They had a modest fleet, a couple hundred cars in San Francisco, and planned to expand to other cities. They were actually bigger than Waymo back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until, in 2023, when one of Cruise’s driverless cars hit a pedestrian. Instead of stopping, the car ran her over and continued driving, dragging her for about 20 feet until it finally stopped at a curb , still on top of the pedestrian. She was critically injured in the crash. The California DMV revoked Cruise’s license and ordered the company to suspend operations in the state. That was in late 2023 and Waymo opened to the public in California in 2024. But KitKat’s death rehashes the same concerns that people had over Cruise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These incidents are, you know, kind of like, uh, a broad daylight shooting in a suburban neighborhood. It’s something that is unusual. We have seen that the cars are not infallible and what’s worse there, there are holes in the technology. Not knowing there’s a person, or in this case, a small animal under your car, strikes me as something that you could improve on. It strikes me as a safety hazard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Waymo’s been facing a bit of a PR crisis over KitKat’s death. It doesn’t help that on the same day of the accident, just hours before KitKat was fatally struck by a Waymo, the company’s co-CEO Tekedra Mawakana appeared on TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage. This exchange went viral: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirsten Korosec: Will society accept a death potentially caused by a robot? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Takedra Mawakana: I think that society will, I think the challenge for us is making sure that society has a high enough bar on safety that companies are held to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after those comments, the company faced immense backlash when news of KitKat’s death broke. Waymo made a statement four days after KitKat died. They apologized and said they’d make a donation to a local animal rights organization in KitKat’s honor. But skepticism about the safety risks of autonomous technology has only continued to build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those are all things to be concerned about, regardless of how many cats are struck by human drivers every day. And regardless of how safe Waymo is, by and large. Uh, frankly, I have to tell you, I’ve been more than a little disappointed by the simplistic whataboutism of people who simply wanna shrug their shoulders and say ‘They’re safer than humans. What do you want?’ I think that it could do better. I think that both the corporation and the vehicles could do better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out a lot of other people feel the same way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What sparks anger and movements is not always what you think it is. In this case, yes, a cat was run over, which happens all the time, every day. But you know, this strikes me as being, uh, a tipping point type situation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This backlash is coming at a time when Waymo is really expanding. In parts of the Bay Area and Southern California, they’re even allowed on freeways. Last month, amid the KitKat backlash, Waymo launched in Miami, with plans to roll out its cars in ten more cities over the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear there’s a lot of buzz around Waymos. But the critics are gaining some steam, thanks to the tragedy that befell KitKat. And that brings us back to the rally, in front of Randa’s Market, a week after KitKat was killed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat, KitKat, KitKat”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how are organizers, advocates, and politicians using the momentum from this incident to push back against the ever-expanding reach of self-driving car companies?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok we’re back. Let’s open a new tab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat the tech martyr\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a week after KitKat’s death, San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder hosted the memorial rally for KitKat, in front of the corner store he’d called home for years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Jackie Fielder: Local communities deserve a say over our streets and over the technologies that affect us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Fielder was one of several speakers at the makeshift podium. An officer from the local Teamsters chapter raised concerns about autonomous vehicles taking human jobs. A public transit advocate questioned why the city was investing so heavily in robotaxis, while San Francisco’s trains and buses face a huge funding deficit. And a few spoke out about the safety issues. They came from different backgrounds, but shared the same point: why didn’t their community get a say in allowing Waymos?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s how Justin Dole, a bar owner and president of the organization Small Business Forward, put it when it was his turn to speak at the rally: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>Justin Dole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s why people have been so profoundly disturbed by KitKat’s death. The mayor of this space, as he was known, was taken from us by a technology that none of us asked for and crucially, to the point of this resolution, none of us consented to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s at the heart of a new legislative push from Supervisor Fielder. KQED reporter Sydney Johnson, who we heard from at the top of the episode, has been reporting on the rideshare industry here in California. She actually lives in the Mission — KitKat’s home turf. Sydney’s going to walk us through this legislative battle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been no shortage of, you know, efforts in Sacramento to try and carve out laws around robotaxis, which is this really relatively new technology and, and area of law also. And a lot of those have faced, you know, lobbying and have just had a pretty difficult time getting through the legislature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the rally, our local supervisor, Jackie Fielder, along with other community and labor leaders were calling on state lawmakers to revisit legislation that was actually proposed last year, but failed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sydney’s talking about SB-915, a California senate bill that would have allowed local cities to vote on whether to allow robotaxis on their streets. Supporters said that it gives residents more agency. Critics of the bill said that it would make rides between different towns or municipalities an absolute nightmare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest, uh, points of opposition to that piece of legislation was that it would create this, you know, really messy patchwork of different policies where maybe you have a robo taxi that can get you around one tiny city, but you can’t actually get to your destination, which is two towns over because this city in the middle voted against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So that ultimately failed. It did not get the support it needed to pass. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">owever, there was still a lot of interest in finding a way to still provide some, you know, democratic framework for this technology, which currently for robotaxi companies, they only need to receive permits from the state level in order to operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they’ve received that for multiple cities and California and a few other places around the country. But these lawmakers who were supporting, uh, this law last year and, and now Jackie Fielder who’s asking lawmakers to revisit it, wanna see the effort not completely die since it didn’t work around city to city regulation, but are hoping to kind of broaden that a little bit at looking at the county level. So having the county of San Francisco or the county of Alameda, you know, these various kind of larger jurisdictions, voters there can decide whether robo taxis can operate on their streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a city supervisor, Jackie Fielder can’t introduce state legislation herself, but she’s still using this moment to shine a spotlight on the issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you talk about how lawmakers and public transit advocates are using this momentum from this cat’s death to push for new action around Waymo’s and other Robotaxis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s interesting about this story and about Kit Kat is it seems to have gotten bigger than California, and certainly bigger than San Francisco where this happened. Um. There were stories about KitKat in the Washington Post, in the New York Times. We were seeing stories on CNN about this cat who was killed by a Waymo and just the heartbreak that came as a result of that. And so local lawmakers here in San Francisco really latched onto that. You know, we, we see this with all different types of legislation when there’s a viral moment and a lawmaker might try to attach some sort of policy idea to that moment and, and, you know, kind of ride some of the energy and life that that story has via that virality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and we certainly saw that here with KitKat and how supervisor Jackie Fielder said, Hey, we need to start talking about this again before things get worse. But, you know, some tragedy has already happened here. And voters, at least who were showing up to this rally, uh, were pretty open about the fact that they wanted to see some sort of either restrictions or at least have the option to vote on whether Waymo’s can operate and, and roam the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, It still remains to be seen if lawmakers in Sacramento are going to pick this up. Um, but certainly here there’s been some, uh, support bubbling for it. I think that it has really just become a symbol for so many different things. Whether it’s concerns about AI taking jobs or safety, or sustainability with transit. You know, I think a lot of people have been able to impress their message onto KitKat’s death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These critiques of automated technology have been around for decades. But it’s only recently that they’ve taken a hold in mainstream, public conversation as autonomous vehicles advance and spread across the country. Waymo may be leading the race, but competitors are sprinting to cash in on the robotaxi wars. Uber, Zoox, Nvdia, Tesla, and like, every car manufacturer are all investing in and testing and launching their own versions of a driverless ride service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe, the managing editor at Mission Local, says KitKat became a flashpoint for these larger tensions playing out in San Francisco and beyond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just on the base level, this, what you’re describing here is a proxy war between the technology companies and the Teamsters unions. And so you can basically see, you know, which politicians are more aligned with the big money tech companies. And Waymo is owned by Google, which, you know, uh, draws a lot of water in this town to use the Big Lebowski line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, they’re, they are, they are big players, you know, with, with no small amount of lobbying money and no small amount of interest in this state and in this county San Francisco. Is it possible that in the future this legislation could be adopted? I get the sad feeling that something terrible needs to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oscar, the Mission Local reporter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, I, I think about just in my everyday life, um, like a cyclist usually has to die for the city to build the proper infrastructure, um, in a section of the city. And it’s, it’s sad that we have to get to that point to, to see the changes that a lot of us want to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So clearly, KitKat has become a symbol of something bigger — let’s talk about what his death means. How about one last tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard typing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s legacy \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This month, Randa’s Market welcomed a new bodega cat: Coco, a white six-month-old kitten, with a black nose and ink-tipped ears. She was a gift, from a neighbor to the store’s owner. But KitKat hasn’t been forgotten — if anything, he’s remembered as a folk hero, who represented a version of San Francisco that doesn’t exist anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, talking to people who lived on 16th Street, talking to bartenders around there, you know, people who just feel like their community has been changing, you know, for decades really, but especially in the last few years it’s felt like so much has really accelerated and just seeing this clash of this hyper new technology. These like, you know, sleek driverless cars, quite literally crush a bodega cat is just such a stark image of seeing, you know, this sort of San Francisco that wants to resist all the ways that technology is now quite literally displacing people, animals, you know, a, a city that was once affordable to artists and creatives and teachers and, you know, working class folks.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole story really kind of characterized I think some of that disappointment and sadness that people have about having no say or no control over the quote unquote progress that’s happening around them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, knowing that, there’s a real ironic twist to this story. KitKat, the adorable face of resistance to encroaching tech, is now also a meme coin. And yes for the uninitiated, that’s a cryptocurrency thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now you know there is an altar on 16th Street for KitKat, but he will forever be immortalized on the blockchain as a crypto coin also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KITKATCOIN launched without the knowledge of KitKat’s actual family, but the store owner’s son has since taken over. He says he donated the first $10,000 of proceeds to an animal rights group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I believe that it hit its peak on Halloween, which was just a few days after KitKat’s death. Um, but pretty shortly after that the value of this crypto coin just plummeted. Uh, which if you’ve followed these meme coins before is a pretty typical story. But I think with this, you know, it really. Just sort of epitomizes the virality of this story and how it took on a life of its own online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s KitKat the tech martyr and KitKat the meme coin, immortalized on the blockchain. In the Mission, locals just remember KitKat the bodega cat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people would remember him first as a friend, uh, second as a member of that community. I think KitKat encompassed everything that this, like one block of resistance,in the mission, um, against, um, waves of gentrification. I always think about this block in a very romantic old school San Francisco way. You have this like feeling of like people mourning this loss together and this like very, um, deep connection that everyone had with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like I went to report the next night. Uh, and I went to Delirium and people were taking shots for KitKat. You know, like Delirium is right next to the liquor store. if you had been there, you would’ve seen the mood in the bar that night. Everyone was really quiet. Everyone was really sad, and people were taking shots for KitKat left and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pour one out for KitKat. We’d usually close all these tabs, but today? Let’s leave his open a little longer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the way — Close All Tabs is taking a break for the holidays. We’ll see you in the new year, with brand new deep dives! For now, we’re wrapping up this year — in honor of our friend KitKat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva, Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"headTitle": "One Year Later, The Internet’s Still Talking About Luigi Mangione | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On December 4, 2024, United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot and killed outside a Midtown New York hotel. The subsequent arrest of 26-year-old Luigi Mangione set off a frenzy far beyond a typical breaking news story. Almost immediately, supporters emerged, detractors pushed back and then something stranger took hold: a devoted fandom that treated Mangione not just as a suspect, but as a symbol.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One year later, we look at how a single crime became a cultural flashpoint and how narratives built around Magione are shaping public perception. Investigative journalist Melkorka Licea unpacks the different factions of Mangione’s online supporters. Then, legal expert Daniel Medwed helps Morgan understand the challenges of selecting a fair jury in an era when high-profile cases unfold in real time across millions of screens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5854827992\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://muckrack.com/melkorka-licea\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka Licea\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, investigative journalist \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://law.northeastern.edu/faculty/medwed/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Daniel Medwed\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of law at Northeastern University\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/inside-the-contentious-world-of-luigi-mangione-supporters/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inside the Contentious World of Luigi Mangione Supporters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka Licea, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/luigi-mangione-new-york-hearing-1235474867/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi Mangione Hearing Hits on 3D Gun, Never-Before-Heard 911 Call, Comparisons to the Unabomber\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lorena O’Neil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://fortune.com/2024/12/05/unitedhealthcare-ceo-brian-thompson-lawsuits-social-media-reaction-motive/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slain UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson’s tenure was marked by rocketing profits—and accusations of insider trading and coverage denial\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sasha Rogelberg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortune\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/luigi-mangione-is-currently-reading-what-can-we-really-learn-about-the-uhc-ceos-killer-based-on-the-books-hes-read/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi is Currently Reading: What Can We Really Learn About the UHC CEO’s Alleged Killer Based on the Books He’s Read?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James Folta, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literary Hub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://wwd.com/pop-culture/culture-news/luigi-mangione-loafers-outfit-ankles-sweater-courtroom-1236968836/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi Mangione’s ‘Loafers,’ ‘Outfit’ and ‘Ankles’ Go Viral as His Unexpected Fashion Influence Persists After Latest Court Appearance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Renan Botelho, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WWD\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/meet-cougars-for-luigi-mangione-and-new-fans-of-the-alleged-killer-v7cqjzc3b\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet the ‘Cougars for Luigi Mangione’ — and new fans of the alleged killer\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Josie Ensor, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/10/us/jury-nullification-luigi-mangione-defense\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is jury nullification and what does it mean for Luigi Mangione’s defense?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eric Levenson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CNN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/emmett-till-grand-jury-woman-accusations-led-to-killing-2022-8\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grand jury declines to indict the 88-year-old white woman whose false accusations led to Emmett Till’s death in 1955\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Haven Orecchio-Egresitz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in February, a dancer at the Los Angeles strip club Jumbo’s Clown Room put on a very special performance. She wore 8-inch platform heels and a black string bikini, but on top, an unexpected accessory: a big t-shirt printed with Luigi Mangione’s mugshot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, uh, at one point she put this t-shirt up with his face and wrapped it around her face so it looked like Luigi was dancing\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is investigative journalist Melkorka Licea. She described the performance in a story she wrote for Wired — a deep dive reporting on Luigi’s rapidly growing fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and then another point she ripped the shirt off and like put it on the ground and started riding on him and the crowd went wild and everyone started chanting “Free Luigi! , ” So it was quite the scene. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just over a year ago, on December 9, 2024, then-26 year old Luigi Mangione was arrested at a McDonald’s in Altoona, Pennsylvania, under suspicion for the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Thompson had been shot on the sidewalk outside the Hilton in midtown Manhattan just days before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His death was an immediate cultural flashpoint, sparking online debate and discussion about the US’s dysfunctional healthcare system. But after Luigi was arrested, and his face was made public, the narrative shifted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tiktok clip from @dearmedia ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw the mugshot and then I saw the picture in the cell, and I’m like, they need to stop releasing his photos, everyone’s too horny.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tiktok clip from @ meyechelgossipsdeluxe]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I don’t even think the Joker got this kind of treatment. I also feel like … did he get a haircut? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @michellearezouross]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We, the people, want Luigi free! We, the people, want Luigi free! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fanfare around Luigi is unprecedented. He’s become the face of protest against the broken medical system — and to add to that? He’s kind of a sex symbol. Many of his supporters think he’s innocent. Plenty of them say they don’t condone violence, but are vocal about his right to a fair trial. Others believe he stands for something bigger, and that he should walk free regardless of whether or not he did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Either way, over the last year, Luigi has gained a massive following. Even if you weren’t a supporter, it was nearly impossible to escape the flood of content about him on social media … and that makes his case incredibly complicated when it comes to legal proceedings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi faces charges in three different jurisdictions — there’s a state court case on gun and fake ID charges in Pennsylvania, and two New York cases for murder: one state and one federal. And though the buzz around him has quieted down from its initial level, at the pre-trial hearing for the New York state case just two weeks ago, supporters still packed into the back rows of the courtroom. Many of them wore green, inspired by the viral emerald knit sweater that he wore at one of his first hearings.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, a year after his arrest, how does Luigi’s robust fanbase complicate all of this? And what can the last year of viral chatter tell us about the future of extremely public criminal cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into the phenomenon of Luigi Mangione … how the flood of content about him, and the fracturing of the fandom, could make the process of jury selection in any trial unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we really get into it, it’s been a long year, ok? A lot has happened. Let’s get a little refresher on the early days of this case. And for that, we’re opening a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why did Luigi go viral?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s go back in time to December 4, 2025. 50-year-old Brian Thompson, the CEO of one of the biggest health insurance companies in the United States, was about to enter a Midtown hotel. He was scheduled to speak at an investor meeting later that morning. But then he was fatally shot in the back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@abc7NY\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eyewitness News ABC7NY\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was in Manhattan for an annual conference at the Hilton when his life was cut short this morning by a murderer in Midtown. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The masked shooter initially fled on foot, and then hopped on a Citibike, kicking off a nationwide manhunt. Later that day, the NYPD held a conference about the attack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fox 4 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@abc7NY\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New Y\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ork]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Early this morning, 50-year-old Brian Thompson the CEO of United Healthcare was shot and killed in what appears, at this early stage of our investigation, to be a brazen, targeted attack. This does not appear to be a random act of violence.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, United Healthcare, like many other health insurers, has faced immense criticism for the way it handles claims. And it had been in the news. About a month before the shooting, a ProPublica investigation revealed that United Healthcare had cut some mental health treatments by using an algorithm. That’s a practice that California, Massachusetts, and New York have since deemed illegal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">United Healthcare’s claim denial rate last year hit 32% — the industry average is 16. A Senate Majority Report on Medicare coverage last year found that United Healthcare in particular denied coverage for care and support services needed after hospitalization.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The company’s profits, meanwhile, had skyrocketed under Thompson’s leadership. He had become the face of United Healthcare’s successes, and all of the grievances people had with the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, police found three words engraved on the bullet casings used to kill Bryan Thompson: Deny. Defend. Depose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They appear to reference the phrase “Delay, Deny, Defend” — the tactics that insurers use to avoid paying for claims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, it seemed like there was a motive. Online, people started to sympathize with the suspect. Some people did celebrate the murder, but for others, it wasn’t about condoning violence Anyone who’d had experience with their health insurance company might imagine how someone could be pushed to the extremes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This story had become a cultural moment way before anyone knew anything about the suspect. It was a uniquely American story. Like, this was a segment on the Daily Show, the day after the shooting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @thedailyshow]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now the cops just need to narrow down the list of suspects to anyone in America who hates their healthcare plan and has access to guns [laughter] It should be solved in no time! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The next few days were consumed by the nationwide manhunt. Authorities released a grainy shot of a, “person of interest” grinning, under a hooded jacket and thick eyebrows. The police announced that they discovered a backpack that allegedly belonged to the shooter. No firearm, but inside: a jacket, and a stack of Monopoly money. This was another viral moment, because it seemed like the suspect was trolling. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, after five days, local police in Altoona, Pennsylvania arrested Luigi Mangione. A McDonald’s employee had called in, and said they noticed similarities between a young man in their store, and the person of interest that the NYPD posted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The photos of Luigi Mangione after he was arrested blew up online. Here’s journalist Melkorka Licea again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It started as just sort of a healthcare related story, right? And then once that photo of Luigi was released and he had his, you know, thick eyebrows and a very attractive face. Suddenly the narrative really shifted from solely just a person perhaps avenging some type of healthcare related issue to just like, ‘oh, he’s, he’s maybe a hero. He’s hot and he did something good for the world.’ And that’s I think when it really started to like spin off into a whole nother dimension online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shell casings matched the 3D-printed gun that police said they found on Luigi, along with a fake New Jersey driver’s license, and a handwritten document about American healthcare. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t just his looks. As soon as his name was released to the public, internet sleuths dug up a Goodreads account that appeared to belong to him — same name, same face. This account logged books that are pretty typical of a mid-twenties software engineer, like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 4-Hour Work Week\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atomic Habits.\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The account gave \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lorax\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> five stars, and the Unabomber’s manifesto four. But it also listed a few books about chronic pain and an X account that matched Luigi’s name and face had posted an X-ray after back surgery, with screws in the lower spine. This digital trail, even if it didn’t belong to Luigi, garnered sympathy from social media users. A lot of people could identify with debilitating chronic pain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On December 19, Luigi was transported from Pennsylvania to New York. When he arrived, a swarm of heavily armed officers and then New York Mayor Eric Adams escorted him. This super publicized perp walk was another major viral moment. He was an instant meme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @reyahthelastdragon]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, Luigi turned that perp walk into his catwalk, ok? One thing about him? He’s gonna serve. This man does not take any bad photos. And, hell, this photo in question looks like it should be on the cover of album of the year.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Hawk’s Podcast Youtube Channel]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were cheering from windows as they marched him through the streets. It was a f*cking parade, it wasn’t a perp walk. I’ve never seen anything like this before! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from @ \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Priscilla Boye\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube Channel]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hate to say it, might be unpopular. But honestly, this only made him look cooler. Like, let’s be so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On social media across the country and internationally, people compared the photos to Renaissance paintings of Jesus and scenes from superhero movies. Typically, perp walks are meant to cast the suspect in a sinister light. Clearly, this didn’t go according to plan. If anything, the spectacle of the perp walk gave his supporters more material to edit and repost. And this was the foundation for the Luigi Mangione fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was on TikTok, Instagram reels, everything. It was truly exploding with like, fangirl type of content, I would say. TikToks with like hearts surrounding him, calling him like the hottest hero, and just a lot of like thirsty, for lack of a better word, content out there. But everyone, at least what I was seeing online, was very on his side for the most part, like viewing it as he was this Robin Hood hero. I remember the internet was saturated with this content around Christmas time. And everyone, I think, was like, off work or had more free time and was just scrolling, making these TikToks for a couple of weeks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So by the holidays, Luigi Mangione had already amassed a huge following. But his supporters didn’t stay united for long. Any fandom online, whether it’s Marvel shows or teen vampire romances, is bound to have rifts. But with a criminal trial, fandom infighting has actual stakes. We’ll get into that in a new tab: The rifts in the Luigi Mangione fandom. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka started reporting on Luigi Mangione’s fan base this spring. She wanted to understand why his supporters were so passionate, beyond just his looks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I started reaching out to people and talking to people, I realized very quickly that some people were very upset that I would reach out to them asking about healthcare and that, you know, I was part of the problem as the part of the media. And so I was like, Hey, look, um, I didn’t know about this, uh, can you fill me in? I’d love to to learn more. And that’s when I really started to understand that there was actually a lot of this infighting going on online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, based on Melkorka’s reporting, there are three main factions within the Luigi fandom. The first, they think he’s a hero, standing against the broken healthcare system, regardless of whether he did it. The second faction believes he’s innocent, and they don’t like associating him with healthcare causes because that narrative makes him look guilty. And finally, the thirst accounts. Melkorka is going to walk us through these three factions. Let’s talk about the first one. The group that is that’s using this momentum to raise awareness of the broken healthcare system. Can you explain their motivations? Like how do they see Luigi? How are they portraying him on social media?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because, you know, Brian Thompson was the CEO of United Healthcare. There was not exactly a motive released right away after this crime happened. But a lot of you know evidence seems to point to Luigi having suffered through a very difficult healthcare journey himself. And I think that really resonated with so many people that they wanted to use this conversation that was going on online to further reform and to, you know, bring more awareness and, you know, hopefully change the healthcare system for the better and create a more accessible system for folks. A lot of them use personal examples or are highlighting very awful experiences that some people have had. One group they put a giant billboard truck outside of the courthouse that scrolled through all these different cases, wrongful death lawsuits. So a lot of them have started Instagram accounts, a lot of them have TikToks as well, where they create reels or slideshows that again highlight cases where people were wronged by the healthcare system, talk about Luigi and you know, the information that’s come out about his personal journey with the healthcare system and how it relates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How did this event act as like a conduit for people’s just universal rage against the system on an emotional level?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I think it gave people a lot of empowerment to get on the internet and share their stories, to be angry about what they’ve gone through. Of course, when people are pushed, especially physically in ways that is painful, they don’t have access, you know, it’s putting them out of money. I think it did make people feel like, Hey, yeah, I feel like I’m being pushed to violence, or maybe I’m being pushed this far too. And and maybe let’s talk about it, because it’s not okay and it’s not normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there are the fans who believe that Luigi is totally innocent. Why don’t they get along with the healthcare advocates? How would you describe the way that they post?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those folks believe that by tying a healthcare message to this case at all, um, and tying that to Luigi at all already implies that he’s guilty. So by talking about, you know, Luigi’s past with healthcare, that is insinuating his guilt. And they feel that Luigi is genuinely innocent, that he should not be tied at all to any sort of healthcare message because he had no healthcare message.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and that he’s a young man who is essentially being framed for this crime. So they feel that, although of course, that the healthcare message is something that a lot of them believe in, um, they think that it has no business, uh, being tied to this case whatsoever.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How do they post online? What, what is their reach, um, how do they interact with the internet at large?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say, you know, they’re less known. Obviously, as I went in, I also myself did not know about them. But the more I sort of learned about who they are, I started noticing them more often. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they also create Instagram accounts and as well as TikToks, but they really only push the message of like Luigi is innocent, here’s why. They really like to present a lot of evidence that they feel points to his innocence, instances where police may have done something where they tainted evidence, for example, or you know, did something along those lines. And then another kind of bigger aspect of I think their fighting online is they very much go to the healthcare people and sort of spark debate in the comment section, in you know, messaging, sometimes I think in person as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They go, you know, show up to the court cases where there’s a lot of Luigi fandom outside or supporters outside, and they, you know, engage in conversation with them as well. So yeah, I think I’ve heard some instances where it’s gotten pretty heated between some of them. Um, I think the majority of it does take place, you know, on DMs.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there is one interaction between one of my sources and one of the healthcare people where the healthcare person was saying, ‘Hey, can you stop posting about this? Because most of the donors to Luigi’s case or have the healthcare message and you are actually getting in the way of him receiving money for fighting his case.’ So yeah, there’s certainly some interesting points and back and forth with, from both sides. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Finally, uh, the third group, um, are the fan accounts that will post any update or photo of Luigi. And I love the way that you phrased it in your Wired article. You said that they are “click driven, thirst forward.” What are their motivations? Like, how do they post?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a lot of those types of posters, they’re just posting like cute pictures of Luigi with, you know, cute filters on top and uh, you know, talking about how he’s so sexy and that they love him. Um, and I do think for many of those posters, they do feel a connection to the healthcare movement and that is why, you know, I think he’s so glamorized, that’s part of it for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But most of it is very just like they are thirsting for Luigi. He is a good looking guy. He also is, to many of them, a very good person. They really like to go into his narrative of just like, how sweet of a guy he is. He was always helping his friends. He was just a good human being. You know, a good student. So the thirsters like to build him up as kind of this prince charming type of guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You had also mentioned this kind of competitive nature when it comes to posting about Luigi. Can you explain that? Like how is that impacting the way that people consume information about him?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think just like journalists where we are trying to get scoops, it’s the same thing for some Luigi posters where you know, whoever can get their hands on this detail about Luigi’s trip somewhere from a family member or, you know, maybe they got access to court documents first and get to post it first. And that will lead to more followers and more engagement. And I think for some of them, in their eyes, that could lead to potentially getting closer to Luigi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to sum it up — the healthcare advocates believe Luigi is the face of resistance to a broken system. But the supporters who believe he’s innocent think the healthcare advocates are implicating his guilt by projecting a motive onto him. And both groups are frustrated by the thirst accounts, because they think that by fixating on his looks, it discredits the work of real supporters who just want him to have a fair trial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a kind of clout aspect that muddies this up even more. Melkorka said some accounts are incentivized to keep posting and driving up engagement, in hopes of getting Luigi’s attention. It’s not dissimilar to a fan account trying to get their favorite celebrity to respond to a post. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For his 27th birthday, Luigi put out a public letter, listing 27 things he was grateful for. Number 9: His cellmate. Number 26: Free speech. And Number 16: Latinas For Mangione. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Instagram account Latinasformangione took credit for that one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I messaged the account before the letter came out. And then I saw, you know, after the letter came out and they amassed like tens of thousands of followers. So something like that can really springboard a supporter into the public eye um, perhaps like receiving more opportunities, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think for a lot of these supporters just being acknowledged by Luigi is a huge deal. He’s someone that they really, really love and care about. So one of their heroes just acknowledged their existence. That’s major. Um, and also he receives lots of letters in prison. So the chances that he would read your letter and, and address you, I think is really, um, massive for a lot of these followers and supporters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Earlier this year, um, on the show we covered this kind of online censorship following the killing of Charlie Kirk. How did Charlie Kirk’s death impact the online discourse around Luigi specifically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It definitely impacted it. So, you know, many of the Luigi supporters do put Luigi Mangione and Charlie Kirk’s shooter in the same bucket of people who maybe had a bigger idea of for why they committed the crime that they committed, a driving justice motivator, whether it’s political, whether it’s healthcare reform. But they sort of see both of them as Robin Hood-esque vigilantes who, you know, weren’t just shooting to kill somebody, but were doing it for a much larger cause that a lot of people felt that they could identify with. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did speak to some of my sources afterward the Charlie Kirk incident, and they have sort of moved away from the Mangione fandom a bit because they felt that the Charlie Kirk discourse was taken too far. It made them uncomfortable. You know, before it was Luigi and his case, and it was sort of an isolated thing, and now it’s being turned into like a quote unquote pattern. And I think for some of them it was just too far and they didn’t want to continue supporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then on the other hand, um, you know, the backlash against people who spoke out against Charlie Kirk following his death. Did that discourage any of the Luigi Mangione fan accounts from posting? I mean, have they changed their strategy because of the way that..yeah, just like the backlash has gotten so severe?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they actually sort of welcome it, uh, for a lot of them. Even negative engagement is good engagement. A lot of them enjoy sort of getting into the comments and, and get fighting and, and getting into these arguments. Um, so I don’t think it’s really discouraged them honestly. Um, if anything, it might open more doors for them to make more points and create more content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How would you describe the current content ecosystem around Luigi Mangione today? I mean has it changed from a year ago?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, certainly. I think that the thirsting has died down a lot, that it had a big moment. You know, right after, but that it’s, it’s died down and now it’s become a lot more, um, serious and, uh, the more serious accounts that really are fighting for, you know, healthcare reform and also his innocence,they’re the ones that are really continuing the work they do, putting in that work every day. Um, of course the thirst content doesn’t go away, but it’s just much, much less. Um, although I imagine that it will certainly pick up again in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a documented link between criminal trials and fandom, like serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy. They attracted groupies way, way before the internet existed. But what is it about Luigi’s case and the support system that he’s built that’s different?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s because it involves, you know, a justice issue, where it’s not just a good-looking serial killer who killed, you know, innocent women. It’s someone who a lot of people feel killed someone who maybe deserved it, which is very dark, but I think it represents a much more Robin Hood-esque movement than any of the other people who attracted groupies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think it’s interesting looking at fandoms for people like the serial killers you mentioned, because they did not have the internet at the time. And it was more about sending letters and kind of creating this fantasy world with this person in your mind. Whereas now we kind of have this big collective fandom that becomes a huge movement. I find it really interesting how the internet fuels that. Yeah, I wonder, I’m very curious to see how the, if we, you know get to trial, what how the jury will be chosen? Like, how are they gonna, how are they gonna choose those people? I genuinely don’t know. Like, how do you avoid this? You can’t, you, people don’t live under a rock. Like, how do you, how do you manage to find people that don’t probably already have like a preconceived notion about him? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s gonna be a really interesting process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. We’re going to answer those exact questions after a break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re back! Let’s open a new tab: Jury selection in the age of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To dive into this, we need to hear from a legal expert, Daniel Medwed, professor of law at Northeastern University. He specializes in criminal law and wrongful convictions, so he’s been following this case pretty closely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There is so much content about Luigi Mangione online, you know, both positive and negative. Why might this flood of content make the possibility of a trial even more complicated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it makes it more complicated for the following reasons, not just that almost every juror knows about this case, but almost every juror has some preconceived idea about the virtue of his behavior or the lack of virtue, or some idea about him as a person.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in our system of law, the goal is to find not necessarily jurors who’ve never heard of the case, but jurors who can be fair and impartial.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the goal of the lawyers and the judge is to figure out who within that group can put aside their preexisting information and belief and look at the evidence with equanimity, look at the evidence, uh fairly. This almost more than any case in recent imagination, is gonna put that principle to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How does jury selection usually play out in high profile cases, even if they aren’t nearly as high profile as this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens in most trials, Morgan, is that the lawyers and the judges will ask questions of the jurors who are there to be selected. So you sort of winnow down this huge pool of prospective jurors into the 12 jurors and two alternates typically that are ultimately impaneled for the jury. And those questions are designed to ferret out jurors that might be biased or not a good fit for the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So both the prosecution and the defense typically have two different ways of ferreting out these jurors. One is called a challenge for cause and there is typically no cap on the number of challenges for cause that you can raise. So let’s just say there’s a juror who is like, knee deep in the Luigi fandom, uh, world and has posted a lot about how much that person loves Luigi and supports Luigi. A prosecutor could probably strike that person for cause, say that person is biased, really can’t be objective and fair in the case. And, and like likewise, right? A defense lawyer could maybe, um, strike somebody for, cause who’s made it clear on social media or elsewhere that they believe that what Luigi Mangione did was completely without justification and abhorrent and, you know, he should be given, uh, the severest sanction possible. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the second mechanism, and I think this is what’s gonna be really interesting, Morgan, it’s called a peremptory challenge. And both sides, each side has a set number of peremptory challenges depending on the jurisdiction and the type of case. And what a peremptory challenge is, is you can strike somebody without articulating the basis for striking them. You don’t have to say, ‘I think they’re biased,’ you’ll just say ‘I don’t want number 12. I don’t want number 26.’ And the idea here is maybe you don’t have anything concrete to hang your head on to suggest that the person is biased against your case, but you have a sneaking suspicion that they wouldn’t be good for your side, and so you’ll end up using your peremptory challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a case like this, Morgan, I think peremptory challenges are gonna be the name of the game because the lawyers are really gonna try to ferret out and figure out who within the pool is gonna really, you know, steer the jury in one way, way or the other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there’s this social media challenge where like there are so much just like content about Luigi, good and bad, but then there’s this other thing offline, and it’s the fact that a lot of people in the US have been screwed over by health insurance. How does that affect this, this kind of jury selection process?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Most Americans have to, at some point in their lives, deal with hospitals, health insurance, doctors, and many of us are frustrated by how health insurance companies respond to our claims. And so the idea of potentially exacting revenge against someone from a very profitable high profile health insurance company is something that a lot of people could relate to, not necessarily in terms of inflicting violence. I hope that’s not something people can relate to, but the idea of expressing extreme displeasure with how big insurance companies treat their clients, clients who are often in the throes of medical crises and have mounting bills. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think the way that this could affect jury selection, Morgan, is there are gonna be lots of questions, especially from the prosecution of prospective jurors: What is your experience with the insurance industry? Have you ever filed a claim that was denied, right? What is your view of vigilante justice? If you are upset about how somebody has treated you or a loved one, do you think the appropriate mechanism is to go to law enforcement or to inflict revenge, um, at a private level? So I think there’ll be lots of questions that are, that are designed to probe into whether a witness is biased.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like you said, there are pretty clear cut examples here of, uh, reasons why someone might be, you know, cut out from the jury. And that could be, you know, running a thirst account for Luigi, uh, be running a healthcare reform account, or even just being like very vocally anti Luigi. But then those are all people who are posting online. What about internet consumption habits? Like, how does that play a role here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So one thing that’s happened more and more in the last decade or so in high profile cases is the judges are asking jurors, prospective jurors, and the litigants are asking prospective jurors about their media consumption habits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Back in the day before the internet took off, some of these questions would relate to newspaper and television consumption habits. You know, do you read the New York Times? Do you watch ABC news, things like that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now what we’re seeing is judges and litigants asking prospective jurors: What news media do you consume online? What websites do you go to? Are you active on social media? What have you seen on social media? And sometimes the failure of a judge to do this in a high profile case can create problems down the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is there any precedent for this? Like, what was the turning point for, uh, for lawyers to actually pay attention to potential jurors’ internet habits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think the turning point Morgan, was the Boston Marathon bombing case. So the Boston Marathon bombing occurred back in 2013, pretty long ago. Um, and the one man who was charged with the crime, Jahar \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tsarnaev\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, went to trial in federal court in Boston, very high profile case. So what happened, and the reason why I’m thinking of this case, Morgan, is the judge didn’t do a great a job of ferreting out the online presence of the jurors. And ultimately, that caused problems on appeal because the defense said…it turned out that some of the jurors had consumed a lot of information and seen a lot about Jahar \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tsarnaev\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and they hadn’t disclosed that during jury selection, in part, because they hadn’t been asked thoroughly. And it created all sorts of problems that delayed the resolution of the case. So I look at that case as one, as sort of a bellwether, um, or like a canary in the coal mine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it’s one thing to ask, you know, like what news sites do you read? How many hours a day do you spend on TikTok? But it’s, it’s another thing to ask like, what subreddits do you visit? Do you read fan fiction? You know, like these, it all seems a bit invasive. Where do you like, where is the line here? Like, what will people actually fess up to?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know where the line is. The judge will probably probe and prod as far as possible, but that doesn’t necessarily ensure, as you suggest, that the jurors will be forthcoming. And what’s especially kind of complicated here is the fact that Luigi Mangione is this, this sex symbol.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I imagine that some of these sites, um, have sexual or sexual adjacent, if that’s even a word, content. And so jurors who have visited those sites might be reluctant, they might be embarrassed to admit that they go to those sites, but yet that information might be relevant to the lawyers and the judge in figuring out whether the juror can be fair and impartial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s fair to say that the judges and the lawyers are gonna push the line as close as possible to invading the privacy and autonomy of the prospective jurors. Some jurors are gonna push back and there aren’t that many great mechanisms for figuring out whether the juror is not being completely honest and transparent in their answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, looking forward, once a jury has been selected, despite all of the challenges that Daniel just laid out, prosecutors might still face another hurdle. Let’s open one more tab: What is jury nullification? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If one of these three pending, uh, cases does go to trial, people keep throwing around this word: jury nullification. What is that and why is it relevant to this case specifically?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So here’s what jury nullification is: Iit’s an ancient power. It dates back to ye old England, Morgan, that basically says the jury may reject the law, they may reject the facts, and they may acquit the defendant. Even if under the law, the government has proven the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually what jurors are told to do, and usually what I hope or presume they do, is they act in a fair fashion and if they think the evidence proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, in a criminal case, they vote to convict. And if they think it doesn’t, they vote to acquit. Jury nullification is when the jury is so moved by the defendant and by the defendant’s cause and by the circumstances that they basically ignore the law, they ignore the facts, and they try to send a message to society by acquitting the defendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you give any examples of how this has played out in the past in also similar high profile cases?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. I mean, jury nullification is, it’s like a stick of dynamite. It’s very, very dangerous because it is a way, to use sort of the dynamite analogy, for a jury to blow up the case. To just blow it up because they believe based on their own conscience, their own ideology, their own ethical or moral compasses, that that’s the right thing to do. And depending on your vantage point, what’s right for one person might not be right for the other person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, for instance, one notorious example of jury nullification, which history does not view kindly for good reason related to the trial in Mississippi of the men who killed Emmett Till. And a lot of people think of this as the case that that triggered or sparked the civil rights movement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emmett Till was a 14-year-old Black boy from Chicago. In 1955, while Emmett was visiting relatives in Mississippi, he and a few other boys stopped at a grocery store to buy candy. There, a white woman accused him of whistling at her. There are conflicting witness reports of what happened, but remember, this was the South during Jim Crow. In retaliation, a group of white men kidnapped Emmett from his great-uncle’s home and brutally beat him to death. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They were not sheepish about this. They were bragging about the role in killing Emmett Till. And those men faced murder charges and an all white jury nullified, even though they had confessed to the crime. All the physical evidence, all the direct and circumstantial evidence pointed to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So during nullification, when, when people talk about it. They often think about it in a way that will sort of vindicate the good person, vindicate somebody who has done something noble, even if, uh, it’s technically a crime. But it can also sometimes be used to excuse morally abhorrent conduct.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the case of Luigi Mangione, there’s just so much content about him, good and bad, but you know, just a lot of content. How might that influence a jury to nullify, even if they’re, you know, picked to be fair and impartial? Even then, how might this current content dichotomy influence that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s fair to say, it seems as though the vast majority of the online content is favorable to Mangione, right? Lots of fans. Lots of fans of his sort of Robin Hood-like behavior, taking on big insurance. Lots of fans of how he looks right and how he acts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that makes me think that there could be some stealth jurors, folks who get onto the jury who maybe haven’t quite disclosed the full extent of their fandom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or even if there aren’t stealth jurors, there are just people who have a passing understanding of the case and they can be fair. But when they’re sitting there and they’re really thinking about the case. It’s quite possible they could nullify. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, again, it’s one thing in the abstract to think about someone’s behavior and hold it high, to consider it to be noble, to consider it to be justified. It’s one thing that we can all do. But then when you’re in the courtroom and you’re seeing that person every day sitting at defense table and you’re listening to the evidence documenting in excruciating detail what he did in premeditated and deliberate fashion, kill a person he had never met and had no personal beef with, it might become a little bit harder to nullify \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Looking back at the last year and watching Luigi Mancini’s case unfold, what can we learn about the future of criminal law and criminal cases in the age of big content? Like do you have any predictions?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s both good and bad. In terms of the, the good, I think increasing access to information in general is a good thing. I mean, one thing I don’t know, that I bet you know and a lot of your peers know, is whether people are more informed about the criminal legal process because of cases like Luigi Mangione. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In other words, are there people who are fans of Luigi Mangione and as a part of their fandom have learned about the law, learned about criminal justice, learned about the difference between state court and federal court, learned about how the, the death penalty works or doesn’t work? That’s a good thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, the bad thing, of course, is for one, could it breed copycats? If people are putting Luigi Mangione up on a pedestal, are there other people out there thinking, hey, vigilante justice is okay? My issue is X. Maybe I should kill someone to advance the conversation in X. That would be a very, very bad thing, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In addition, another bad thing is, um, the meme isn’t always accurate. The description online isn’t always accurate. One thing we know has been a real issue in recent years is how do we figure out fact from something that’s not a fact? How do we verify the legitimacy of information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Well thanks so much for joining us, Daniel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you, Morgan. It was my pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s where Luigi Mangione’s case stands today. During the first week of December, around the one year anniversary of the shooting, Luigi appeared in New York state court, where he faces murder charges. This pre-trial hearing determined whether the evidence gathered during his arrest could be used in trial. His defense team argued that his backpack was searched without a warrant and therefore the 3D printed gun and handwritten notes allegedly found when he was arrested should be excluded. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His most ardent supporters came prepared. Some of them have been attending his court appearances since last December. For this recent hearing, some fans began camping in front of the courthouse days in advance. They wore sashes that said “Free Luigi” and traded handmade beaded friendship bracelets, like Swifties did during the Eras tour. Those who couldn’t get into the courtroom rallied outside, even as temperatures dipped below freezing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi is scheduled to appear in New York’s federal court in January. Prosecutors in that case are seeking the death penalty. We’ll be keeping an eye on the proceedings, but even if we close these tabs today, his fans, at least, will keep theirs open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, and edited by Jen Chien.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our senior editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Also, we want to hear from you. Email us at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or TikTok @CloseAllTabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "One Year Later, The Internet’s Still Talking About Luigi Mangione | KQED",
"description": "On December 4, 2024, United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot and killed outside a Midtown New York hotel. The subsequent arrest of 26-year-old Luigi Mangione set off a frenzy far beyond a typical breaking news story. Almost immediately, supporters emerged, detractors pushed back and then something stranger took hold: a devoted fandom that treated Mangione not just as a suspect, but as a symbol. One year later, we look at how a single crime became a cultural flashpoint and how narratives built around Magione are shaping public perception. Investigative journalist Melokorka Licea unpacks the different factions of Mangione’s online supporters. Then, legal expert Daniel Medwed helps Morgan understand the challenges of selecting a fair jury in an era when high-profile cases unfold in real time across millions of screens.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On December 4, 2024, United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot and killed outside a Midtown New York hotel. The subsequent arrest of 26-year-old Luigi Mangione set off a frenzy far beyond a typical breaking news story. Almost immediately, supporters emerged, detractors pushed back and then something stranger took hold: a devoted fandom that treated Mangione not just as a suspect, but as a symbol.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One year later, we look at how a single crime became a cultural flashpoint and how narratives built around Magione are shaping public perception. Investigative journalist Melkorka Licea unpacks the different factions of Mangione’s online supporters. Then, legal expert Daniel Medwed helps Morgan understand the challenges of selecting a fair jury in an era when high-profile cases unfold in real time across millions of screens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5854827992\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://muckrack.com/melkorka-licea\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka Licea\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, investigative journalist \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://law.northeastern.edu/faculty/medwed/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Daniel Medwed\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of law at Northeastern University\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/inside-the-contentious-world-of-luigi-mangione-supporters/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inside the Contentious World of Luigi Mangione Supporters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka Licea, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/luigi-mangione-new-york-hearing-1235474867/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi Mangione Hearing Hits on 3D Gun, Never-Before-Heard 911 Call, Comparisons to the Unabomber\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lorena O’Neil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://fortune.com/2024/12/05/unitedhealthcare-ceo-brian-thompson-lawsuits-social-media-reaction-motive/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slain UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson’s tenure was marked by rocketing profits—and accusations of insider trading and coverage denial\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sasha Rogelberg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortune\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/luigi-mangione-is-currently-reading-what-can-we-really-learn-about-the-uhc-ceos-killer-based-on-the-books-hes-read/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi is Currently Reading: What Can We Really Learn About the UHC CEO’s Alleged Killer Based on the Books He’s Read?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James Folta, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literary Hub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://wwd.com/pop-culture/culture-news/luigi-mangione-loafers-outfit-ankles-sweater-courtroom-1236968836/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi Mangione’s ‘Loafers,’ ‘Outfit’ and ‘Ankles’ Go Viral as His Unexpected Fashion Influence Persists After Latest Court Appearance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Renan Botelho, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WWD\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/meet-cougars-for-luigi-mangione-and-new-fans-of-the-alleged-killer-v7cqjzc3b\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet the ‘Cougars for Luigi Mangione’ — and new fans of the alleged killer\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Josie Ensor, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/10/us/jury-nullification-luigi-mangione-defense\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is jury nullification and what does it mean for Luigi Mangione’s defense?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eric Levenson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CNN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/emmett-till-grand-jury-woman-accusations-led-to-killing-2022-8\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grand jury declines to indict the 88-year-old white woman whose false accusations led to Emmett Till’s death in 1955\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Haven Orecchio-Egresitz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in February, a dancer at the Los Angeles strip club Jumbo’s Clown Room put on a very special performance. She wore 8-inch platform heels and a black string bikini, but on top, an unexpected accessory: a big t-shirt printed with Luigi Mangione’s mugshot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, uh, at one point she put this t-shirt up with his face and wrapped it around her face so it looked like Luigi was dancing\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is investigative journalist Melkorka Licea. She described the performance in a story she wrote for Wired — a deep dive reporting on Luigi’s rapidly growing fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and then another point she ripped the shirt off and like put it on the ground and started riding on him and the crowd went wild and everyone started chanting “Free Luigi! , ” So it was quite the scene. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just over a year ago, on December 9, 2024, then-26 year old Luigi Mangione was arrested at a McDonald’s in Altoona, Pennsylvania, under suspicion for the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Thompson had been shot on the sidewalk outside the Hilton in midtown Manhattan just days before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His death was an immediate cultural flashpoint, sparking online debate and discussion about the US’s dysfunctional healthcare system. But after Luigi was arrested, and his face was made public, the narrative shifted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tiktok clip from @dearmedia ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw the mugshot and then I saw the picture in the cell, and I’m like, they need to stop releasing his photos, everyone’s too horny.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tiktok clip from @ meyechelgossipsdeluxe]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I don’t even think the Joker got this kind of treatment. I also feel like … did he get a haircut? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @michellearezouross]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We, the people, want Luigi free! We, the people, want Luigi free! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fanfare around Luigi is unprecedented. He’s become the face of protest against the broken medical system — and to add to that? He’s kind of a sex symbol. Many of his supporters think he’s innocent. Plenty of them say they don’t condone violence, but are vocal about his right to a fair trial. Others believe he stands for something bigger, and that he should walk free regardless of whether or not he did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Either way, over the last year, Luigi has gained a massive following. Even if you weren’t a supporter, it was nearly impossible to escape the flood of content about him on social media … and that makes his case incredibly complicated when it comes to legal proceedings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi faces charges in three different jurisdictions — there’s a state court case on gun and fake ID charges in Pennsylvania, and two New York cases for murder: one state and one federal. And though the buzz around him has quieted down from its initial level, at the pre-trial hearing for the New York state case just two weeks ago, supporters still packed into the back rows of the courtroom. Many of them wore green, inspired by the viral emerald knit sweater that he wore at one of his first hearings.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, a year after his arrest, how does Luigi’s robust fanbase complicate all of this? And what can the last year of viral chatter tell us about the future of extremely public criminal cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into the phenomenon of Luigi Mangione … how the flood of content about him, and the fracturing of the fandom, could make the process of jury selection in any trial unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we really get into it, it’s been a long year, ok? A lot has happened. Let’s get a little refresher on the early days of this case. And for that, we’re opening a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why did Luigi go viral?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s go back in time to December 4, 2025. 50-year-old Brian Thompson, the CEO of one of the biggest health insurance companies in the United States, was about to enter a Midtown hotel. He was scheduled to speak at an investor meeting later that morning. But then he was fatally shot in the back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@abc7NY\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eyewitness News ABC7NY\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was in Manhattan for an annual conference at the Hilton when his life was cut short this morning by a murderer in Midtown. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The masked shooter initially fled on foot, and then hopped on a Citibike, kicking off a nationwide manhunt. Later that day, the NYPD held a conference about the attack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fox 4 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@abc7NY\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New Y\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ork]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Early this morning, 50-year-old Brian Thompson the CEO of United Healthcare was shot and killed in what appears, at this early stage of our investigation, to be a brazen, targeted attack. This does not appear to be a random act of violence.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, United Healthcare, like many other health insurers, has faced immense criticism for the way it handles claims. And it had been in the news. About a month before the shooting, a ProPublica investigation revealed that United Healthcare had cut some mental health treatments by using an algorithm. That’s a practice that California, Massachusetts, and New York have since deemed illegal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">United Healthcare’s claim denial rate last year hit 32% — the industry average is 16. A Senate Majority Report on Medicare coverage last year found that United Healthcare in particular denied coverage for care and support services needed after hospitalization.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The company’s profits, meanwhile, had skyrocketed under Thompson’s leadership. He had become the face of United Healthcare’s successes, and all of the grievances people had with the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, police found three words engraved on the bullet casings used to kill Bryan Thompson: Deny. Defend. Depose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They appear to reference the phrase “Delay, Deny, Defend” — the tactics that insurers use to avoid paying for claims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, it seemed like there was a motive. Online, people started to sympathize with the suspect. Some people did celebrate the murder, but for others, it wasn’t about condoning violence Anyone who’d had experience with their health insurance company might imagine how someone could be pushed to the extremes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This story had become a cultural moment way before anyone knew anything about the suspect. It was a uniquely American story. Like, this was a segment on the Daily Show, the day after the shooting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @thedailyshow]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now the cops just need to narrow down the list of suspects to anyone in America who hates their healthcare plan and has access to guns [laughter] It should be solved in no time! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The next few days were consumed by the nationwide manhunt. Authorities released a grainy shot of a, “person of interest” grinning, under a hooded jacket and thick eyebrows. The police announced that they discovered a backpack that allegedly belonged to the shooter. No firearm, but inside: a jacket, and a stack of Monopoly money. This was another viral moment, because it seemed like the suspect was trolling. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, after five days, local police in Altoona, Pennsylvania arrested Luigi Mangione. A McDonald’s employee had called in, and said they noticed similarities between a young man in their store, and the person of interest that the NYPD posted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The photos of Luigi Mangione after he was arrested blew up online. Here’s journalist Melkorka Licea again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It started as just sort of a healthcare related story, right? And then once that photo of Luigi was released and he had his, you know, thick eyebrows and a very attractive face. Suddenly the narrative really shifted from solely just a person perhaps avenging some type of healthcare related issue to just like, ‘oh, he’s, he’s maybe a hero. He’s hot and he did something good for the world.’ And that’s I think when it really started to like spin off into a whole nother dimension online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shell casings matched the 3D-printed gun that police said they found on Luigi, along with a fake New Jersey driver’s license, and a handwritten document about American healthcare. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t just his looks. As soon as his name was released to the public, internet sleuths dug up a Goodreads account that appeared to belong to him — same name, same face. This account logged books that are pretty typical of a mid-twenties software engineer, like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 4-Hour Work Week\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atomic Habits.\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The account gave \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lorax\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> five stars, and the Unabomber’s manifesto four. But it also listed a few books about chronic pain and an X account that matched Luigi’s name and face had posted an X-ray after back surgery, with screws in the lower spine. This digital trail, even if it didn’t belong to Luigi, garnered sympathy from social media users. A lot of people could identify with debilitating chronic pain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On December 19, Luigi was transported from Pennsylvania to New York. When he arrived, a swarm of heavily armed officers and then New York Mayor Eric Adams escorted him. This super publicized perp walk was another major viral moment. He was an instant meme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @reyahthelastdragon]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, Luigi turned that perp walk into his catwalk, ok? One thing about him? He’s gonna serve. This man does not take any bad photos. And, hell, this photo in question looks like it should be on the cover of album of the year.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Hawk’s Podcast Youtube Channel]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were cheering from windows as they marched him through the streets. It was a f*cking parade, it wasn’t a perp walk. I’ve never seen anything like this before! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from @ \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Priscilla Boye\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube Channel]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hate to say it, might be unpopular. But honestly, this only made him look cooler. Like, let’s be so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On social media across the country and internationally, people compared the photos to Renaissance paintings of Jesus and scenes from superhero movies. Typically, perp walks are meant to cast the suspect in a sinister light. Clearly, this didn’t go according to plan. If anything, the spectacle of the perp walk gave his supporters more material to edit and repost. And this was the foundation for the Luigi Mangione fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was on TikTok, Instagram reels, everything. It was truly exploding with like, fangirl type of content, I would say. TikToks with like hearts surrounding him, calling him like the hottest hero, and just a lot of like thirsty, for lack of a better word, content out there. But everyone, at least what I was seeing online, was very on his side for the most part, like viewing it as he was this Robin Hood hero. I remember the internet was saturated with this content around Christmas time. And everyone, I think, was like, off work or had more free time and was just scrolling, making these TikToks for a couple of weeks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So by the holidays, Luigi Mangione had already amassed a huge following. But his supporters didn’t stay united for long. Any fandom online, whether it’s Marvel shows or teen vampire romances, is bound to have rifts. But with a criminal trial, fandom infighting has actual stakes. We’ll get into that in a new tab: The rifts in the Luigi Mangione fandom. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka started reporting on Luigi Mangione’s fan base this spring. She wanted to understand why his supporters were so passionate, beyond just his looks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I started reaching out to people and talking to people, I realized very quickly that some people were very upset that I would reach out to them asking about healthcare and that, you know, I was part of the problem as the part of the media. And so I was like, Hey, look, um, I didn’t know about this, uh, can you fill me in? I’d love to to learn more. And that’s when I really started to understand that there was actually a lot of this infighting going on online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, based on Melkorka’s reporting, there are three main factions within the Luigi fandom. The first, they think he’s a hero, standing against the broken healthcare system, regardless of whether he did it. The second faction believes he’s innocent, and they don’t like associating him with healthcare causes because that narrative makes him look guilty. And finally, the thirst accounts. Melkorka is going to walk us through these three factions. Let’s talk about the first one. The group that is that’s using this momentum to raise awareness of the broken healthcare system. Can you explain their motivations? Like how do they see Luigi? How are they portraying him on social media?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because, you know, Brian Thompson was the CEO of United Healthcare. There was not exactly a motive released right away after this crime happened. But a lot of you know evidence seems to point to Luigi having suffered through a very difficult healthcare journey himself. And I think that really resonated with so many people that they wanted to use this conversation that was going on online to further reform and to, you know, bring more awareness and, you know, hopefully change the healthcare system for the better and create a more accessible system for folks. A lot of them use personal examples or are highlighting very awful experiences that some people have had. One group they put a giant billboard truck outside of the courthouse that scrolled through all these different cases, wrongful death lawsuits. So a lot of them have started Instagram accounts, a lot of them have TikToks as well, where they create reels or slideshows that again highlight cases where people were wronged by the healthcare system, talk about Luigi and you know, the information that’s come out about his personal journey with the healthcare system and how it relates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How did this event act as like a conduit for people’s just universal rage against the system on an emotional level?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I think it gave people a lot of empowerment to get on the internet and share their stories, to be angry about what they’ve gone through. Of course, when people are pushed, especially physically in ways that is painful, they don’t have access, you know, it’s putting them out of money. I think it did make people feel like, Hey, yeah, I feel like I’m being pushed to violence, or maybe I’m being pushed this far too. And and maybe let’s talk about it, because it’s not okay and it’s not normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there are the fans who believe that Luigi is totally innocent. Why don’t they get along with the healthcare advocates? How would you describe the way that they post?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those folks believe that by tying a healthcare message to this case at all, um, and tying that to Luigi at all already implies that he’s guilty. So by talking about, you know, Luigi’s past with healthcare, that is insinuating his guilt. And they feel that Luigi is genuinely innocent, that he should not be tied at all to any sort of healthcare message because he had no healthcare message.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and that he’s a young man who is essentially being framed for this crime. So they feel that, although of course, that the healthcare message is something that a lot of them believe in, um, they think that it has no business, uh, being tied to this case whatsoever.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How do they post online? What, what is their reach, um, how do they interact with the internet at large?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say, you know, they’re less known. Obviously, as I went in, I also myself did not know about them. But the more I sort of learned about who they are, I started noticing them more often. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they also create Instagram accounts and as well as TikToks, but they really only push the message of like Luigi is innocent, here’s why. They really like to present a lot of evidence that they feel points to his innocence, instances where police may have done something where they tainted evidence, for example, or you know, did something along those lines. And then another kind of bigger aspect of I think their fighting online is they very much go to the healthcare people and sort of spark debate in the comment section, in you know, messaging, sometimes I think in person as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They go, you know, show up to the court cases where there’s a lot of Luigi fandom outside or supporters outside, and they, you know, engage in conversation with them as well. So yeah, I think I’ve heard some instances where it’s gotten pretty heated between some of them. Um, I think the majority of it does take place, you know, on DMs.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there is one interaction between one of my sources and one of the healthcare people where the healthcare person was saying, ‘Hey, can you stop posting about this? Because most of the donors to Luigi’s case or have the healthcare message and you are actually getting in the way of him receiving money for fighting his case.’ So yeah, there’s certainly some interesting points and back and forth with, from both sides. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Finally, uh, the third group, um, are the fan accounts that will post any update or photo of Luigi. And I love the way that you phrased it in your Wired article. You said that they are “click driven, thirst forward.” What are their motivations? Like, how do they post?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a lot of those types of posters, they’re just posting like cute pictures of Luigi with, you know, cute filters on top and uh, you know, talking about how he’s so sexy and that they love him. Um, and I do think for many of those posters, they do feel a connection to the healthcare movement and that is why, you know, I think he’s so glamorized, that’s part of it for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But most of it is very just like they are thirsting for Luigi. He is a good looking guy. He also is, to many of them, a very good person. They really like to go into his narrative of just like, how sweet of a guy he is. He was always helping his friends. He was just a good human being. You know, a good student. So the thirsters like to build him up as kind of this prince charming type of guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You had also mentioned this kind of competitive nature when it comes to posting about Luigi. Can you explain that? Like how is that impacting the way that people consume information about him?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think just like journalists where we are trying to get scoops, it’s the same thing for some Luigi posters where you know, whoever can get their hands on this detail about Luigi’s trip somewhere from a family member or, you know, maybe they got access to court documents first and get to post it first. And that will lead to more followers and more engagement. And I think for some of them, in their eyes, that could lead to potentially getting closer to Luigi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to sum it up — the healthcare advocates believe Luigi is the face of resistance to a broken system. But the supporters who believe he’s innocent think the healthcare advocates are implicating his guilt by projecting a motive onto him. And both groups are frustrated by the thirst accounts, because they think that by fixating on his looks, it discredits the work of real supporters who just want him to have a fair trial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a kind of clout aspect that muddies this up even more. Melkorka said some accounts are incentivized to keep posting and driving up engagement, in hopes of getting Luigi’s attention. It’s not dissimilar to a fan account trying to get their favorite celebrity to respond to a post. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For his 27th birthday, Luigi put out a public letter, listing 27 things he was grateful for. Number 9: His cellmate. Number 26: Free speech. And Number 16: Latinas For Mangione. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Instagram account Latinasformangione took credit for that one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I messaged the account before the letter came out. And then I saw, you know, after the letter came out and they amassed like tens of thousands of followers. So something like that can really springboard a supporter into the public eye um, perhaps like receiving more opportunities, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think for a lot of these supporters just being acknowledged by Luigi is a huge deal. He’s someone that they really, really love and care about. So one of their heroes just acknowledged their existence. That’s major. Um, and also he receives lots of letters in prison. So the chances that he would read your letter and, and address you, I think is really, um, massive for a lot of these followers and supporters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Earlier this year, um, on the show we covered this kind of online censorship following the killing of Charlie Kirk. How did Charlie Kirk’s death impact the online discourse around Luigi specifically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It definitely impacted it. So, you know, many of the Luigi supporters do put Luigi Mangione and Charlie Kirk’s shooter in the same bucket of people who maybe had a bigger idea of for why they committed the crime that they committed, a driving justice motivator, whether it’s political, whether it’s healthcare reform. But they sort of see both of them as Robin Hood-esque vigilantes who, you know, weren’t just shooting to kill somebody, but were doing it for a much larger cause that a lot of people felt that they could identify with. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did speak to some of my sources afterward the Charlie Kirk incident, and they have sort of moved away from the Mangione fandom a bit because they felt that the Charlie Kirk discourse was taken too far. It made them uncomfortable. You know, before it was Luigi and his case, and it was sort of an isolated thing, and now it’s being turned into like a quote unquote pattern. And I think for some of them it was just too far and they didn’t want to continue supporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then on the other hand, um, you know, the backlash against people who spoke out against Charlie Kirk following his death. Did that discourage any of the Luigi Mangione fan accounts from posting? I mean, have they changed their strategy because of the way that..yeah, just like the backlash has gotten so severe?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they actually sort of welcome it, uh, for a lot of them. Even negative engagement is good engagement. A lot of them enjoy sort of getting into the comments and, and get fighting and, and getting into these arguments. Um, so I don’t think it’s really discouraged them honestly. Um, if anything, it might open more doors for them to make more points and create more content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How would you describe the current content ecosystem around Luigi Mangione today? I mean has it changed from a year ago?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, certainly. I think that the thirsting has died down a lot, that it had a big moment. You know, right after, but that it’s, it’s died down and now it’s become a lot more, um, serious and, uh, the more serious accounts that really are fighting for, you know, healthcare reform and also his innocence,they’re the ones that are really continuing the work they do, putting in that work every day. Um, of course the thirst content doesn’t go away, but it’s just much, much less. Um, although I imagine that it will certainly pick up again in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a documented link between criminal trials and fandom, like serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy. They attracted groupies way, way before the internet existed. But what is it about Luigi’s case and the support system that he’s built that’s different?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s because it involves, you know, a justice issue, where it’s not just a good-looking serial killer who killed, you know, innocent women. It’s someone who a lot of people feel killed someone who maybe deserved it, which is very dark, but I think it represents a much more Robin Hood-esque movement than any of the other people who attracted groupies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think it’s interesting looking at fandoms for people like the serial killers you mentioned, because they did not have the internet at the time. And it was more about sending letters and kind of creating this fantasy world with this person in your mind. Whereas now we kind of have this big collective fandom that becomes a huge movement. I find it really interesting how the internet fuels that. Yeah, I wonder, I’m very curious to see how the, if we, you know get to trial, what how the jury will be chosen? Like, how are they gonna, how are they gonna choose those people? I genuinely don’t know. Like, how do you avoid this? You can’t, you, people don’t live under a rock. Like, how do you, how do you manage to find people that don’t probably already have like a preconceived notion about him? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s gonna be a really interesting process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. We’re going to answer those exact questions after a break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re back! Let’s open a new tab: Jury selection in the age of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To dive into this, we need to hear from a legal expert, Daniel Medwed, professor of law at Northeastern University. He specializes in criminal law and wrongful convictions, so he’s been following this case pretty closely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There is so much content about Luigi Mangione online, you know, both positive and negative. Why might this flood of content make the possibility of a trial even more complicated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it makes it more complicated for the following reasons, not just that almost every juror knows about this case, but almost every juror has some preconceived idea about the virtue of his behavior or the lack of virtue, or some idea about him as a person.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in our system of law, the goal is to find not necessarily jurors who’ve never heard of the case, but jurors who can be fair and impartial.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the goal of the lawyers and the judge is to figure out who within that group can put aside their preexisting information and belief and look at the evidence with equanimity, look at the evidence, uh fairly. This almost more than any case in recent imagination, is gonna put that principle to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How does jury selection usually play out in high profile cases, even if they aren’t nearly as high profile as this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens in most trials, Morgan, is that the lawyers and the judges will ask questions of the jurors who are there to be selected. So you sort of winnow down this huge pool of prospective jurors into the 12 jurors and two alternates typically that are ultimately impaneled for the jury. And those questions are designed to ferret out jurors that might be biased or not a good fit for the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So both the prosecution and the defense typically have two different ways of ferreting out these jurors. One is called a challenge for cause and there is typically no cap on the number of challenges for cause that you can raise. So let’s just say there’s a juror who is like, knee deep in the Luigi fandom, uh, world and has posted a lot about how much that person loves Luigi and supports Luigi. A prosecutor could probably strike that person for cause, say that person is biased, really can’t be objective and fair in the case. And, and like likewise, right? A defense lawyer could maybe, um, strike somebody for, cause who’s made it clear on social media or elsewhere that they believe that what Luigi Mangione did was completely without justification and abhorrent and, you know, he should be given, uh, the severest sanction possible. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the second mechanism, and I think this is what’s gonna be really interesting, Morgan, it’s called a peremptory challenge. And both sides, each side has a set number of peremptory challenges depending on the jurisdiction and the type of case. And what a peremptory challenge is, is you can strike somebody without articulating the basis for striking them. You don’t have to say, ‘I think they’re biased,’ you’ll just say ‘I don’t want number 12. I don’t want number 26.’ And the idea here is maybe you don’t have anything concrete to hang your head on to suggest that the person is biased against your case, but you have a sneaking suspicion that they wouldn’t be good for your side, and so you’ll end up using your peremptory challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a case like this, Morgan, I think peremptory challenges are gonna be the name of the game because the lawyers are really gonna try to ferret out and figure out who within the pool is gonna really, you know, steer the jury in one way, way or the other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there’s this social media challenge where like there are so much just like content about Luigi, good and bad, but then there’s this other thing offline, and it’s the fact that a lot of people in the US have been screwed over by health insurance. How does that affect this, this kind of jury selection process?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Most Americans have to, at some point in their lives, deal with hospitals, health insurance, doctors, and many of us are frustrated by how health insurance companies respond to our claims. And so the idea of potentially exacting revenge against someone from a very profitable high profile health insurance company is something that a lot of people could relate to, not necessarily in terms of inflicting violence. I hope that’s not something people can relate to, but the idea of expressing extreme displeasure with how big insurance companies treat their clients, clients who are often in the throes of medical crises and have mounting bills. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think the way that this could affect jury selection, Morgan, is there are gonna be lots of questions, especially from the prosecution of prospective jurors: What is your experience with the insurance industry? Have you ever filed a claim that was denied, right? What is your view of vigilante justice? If you are upset about how somebody has treated you or a loved one, do you think the appropriate mechanism is to go to law enforcement or to inflict revenge, um, at a private level? So I think there’ll be lots of questions that are, that are designed to probe into whether a witness is biased.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like you said, there are pretty clear cut examples here of, uh, reasons why someone might be, you know, cut out from the jury. And that could be, you know, running a thirst account for Luigi, uh, be running a healthcare reform account, or even just being like very vocally anti Luigi. But then those are all people who are posting online. What about internet consumption habits? Like, how does that play a role here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So one thing that’s happened more and more in the last decade or so in high profile cases is the judges are asking jurors, prospective jurors, and the litigants are asking prospective jurors about their media consumption habits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Back in the day before the internet took off, some of these questions would relate to newspaper and television consumption habits. You know, do you read the New York Times? Do you watch ABC news, things like that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now what we’re seeing is judges and litigants asking prospective jurors: What news media do you consume online? What websites do you go to? Are you active on social media? What have you seen on social media? And sometimes the failure of a judge to do this in a high profile case can create problems down the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is there any precedent for this? Like, what was the turning point for, uh, for lawyers to actually pay attention to potential jurors’ internet habits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think the turning point Morgan, was the Boston Marathon bombing case. So the Boston Marathon bombing occurred back in 2013, pretty long ago. Um, and the one man who was charged with the crime, Jahar \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tsarnaev\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, went to trial in federal court in Boston, very high profile case. So what happened, and the reason why I’m thinking of this case, Morgan, is the judge didn’t do a great a job of ferreting out the online presence of the jurors. And ultimately, that caused problems on appeal because the defense said…it turned out that some of the jurors had consumed a lot of information and seen a lot about Jahar \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tsarnaev\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and they hadn’t disclosed that during jury selection, in part, because they hadn’t been asked thoroughly. And it created all sorts of problems that delayed the resolution of the case. So I look at that case as one, as sort of a bellwether, um, or like a canary in the coal mine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it’s one thing to ask, you know, like what news sites do you read? How many hours a day do you spend on TikTok? But it’s, it’s another thing to ask like, what subreddits do you visit? Do you read fan fiction? You know, like these, it all seems a bit invasive. Where do you like, where is the line here? Like, what will people actually fess up to?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know where the line is. The judge will probably probe and prod as far as possible, but that doesn’t necessarily ensure, as you suggest, that the jurors will be forthcoming. And what’s especially kind of complicated here is the fact that Luigi Mangione is this, this sex symbol.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I imagine that some of these sites, um, have sexual or sexual adjacent, if that’s even a word, content. And so jurors who have visited those sites might be reluctant, they might be embarrassed to admit that they go to those sites, but yet that information might be relevant to the lawyers and the judge in figuring out whether the juror can be fair and impartial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s fair to say that the judges and the lawyers are gonna push the line as close as possible to invading the privacy and autonomy of the prospective jurors. Some jurors are gonna push back and there aren’t that many great mechanisms for figuring out whether the juror is not being completely honest and transparent in their answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, looking forward, once a jury has been selected, despite all of the challenges that Daniel just laid out, prosecutors might still face another hurdle. Let’s open one more tab: What is jury nullification? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If one of these three pending, uh, cases does go to trial, people keep throwing around this word: jury nullification. What is that and why is it relevant to this case specifically?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So here’s what jury nullification is: Iit’s an ancient power. It dates back to ye old England, Morgan, that basically says the jury may reject the law, they may reject the facts, and they may acquit the defendant. Even if under the law, the government has proven the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually what jurors are told to do, and usually what I hope or presume they do, is they act in a fair fashion and if they think the evidence proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, in a criminal case, they vote to convict. And if they think it doesn’t, they vote to acquit. Jury nullification is when the jury is so moved by the defendant and by the defendant’s cause and by the circumstances that they basically ignore the law, they ignore the facts, and they try to send a message to society by acquitting the defendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you give any examples of how this has played out in the past in also similar high profile cases?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. I mean, jury nullification is, it’s like a stick of dynamite. It’s very, very dangerous because it is a way, to use sort of the dynamite analogy, for a jury to blow up the case. To just blow it up because they believe based on their own conscience, their own ideology, their own ethical or moral compasses, that that’s the right thing to do. And depending on your vantage point, what’s right for one person might not be right for the other person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, for instance, one notorious example of jury nullification, which history does not view kindly for good reason related to the trial in Mississippi of the men who killed Emmett Till. And a lot of people think of this as the case that that triggered or sparked the civil rights movement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emmett Till was a 14-year-old Black boy from Chicago. In 1955, while Emmett was visiting relatives in Mississippi, he and a few other boys stopped at a grocery store to buy candy. There, a white woman accused him of whistling at her. There are conflicting witness reports of what happened, but remember, this was the South during Jim Crow. In retaliation, a group of white men kidnapped Emmett from his great-uncle’s home and brutally beat him to death. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They were not sheepish about this. They were bragging about the role in killing Emmett Till. And those men faced murder charges and an all white jury nullified, even though they had confessed to the crime. All the physical evidence, all the direct and circumstantial evidence pointed to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So during nullification, when, when people talk about it. They often think about it in a way that will sort of vindicate the good person, vindicate somebody who has done something noble, even if, uh, it’s technically a crime. But it can also sometimes be used to excuse morally abhorrent conduct.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the case of Luigi Mangione, there’s just so much content about him, good and bad, but you know, just a lot of content. How might that influence a jury to nullify, even if they’re, you know, picked to be fair and impartial? Even then, how might this current content dichotomy influence that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s fair to say, it seems as though the vast majority of the online content is favorable to Mangione, right? Lots of fans. Lots of fans of his sort of Robin Hood-like behavior, taking on big insurance. Lots of fans of how he looks right and how he acts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that makes me think that there could be some stealth jurors, folks who get onto the jury who maybe haven’t quite disclosed the full extent of their fandom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or even if there aren’t stealth jurors, there are just people who have a passing understanding of the case and they can be fair. But when they’re sitting there and they’re really thinking about the case. It’s quite possible they could nullify. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, again, it’s one thing in the abstract to think about someone’s behavior and hold it high, to consider it to be noble, to consider it to be justified. It’s one thing that we can all do. But then when you’re in the courtroom and you’re seeing that person every day sitting at defense table and you’re listening to the evidence documenting in excruciating detail what he did in premeditated and deliberate fashion, kill a person he had never met and had no personal beef with, it might become a little bit harder to nullify \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Looking back at the last year and watching Luigi Mancini’s case unfold, what can we learn about the future of criminal law and criminal cases in the age of big content? Like do you have any predictions?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s both good and bad. In terms of the, the good, I think increasing access to information in general is a good thing. I mean, one thing I don’t know, that I bet you know and a lot of your peers know, is whether people are more informed about the criminal legal process because of cases like Luigi Mangione. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In other words, are there people who are fans of Luigi Mangione and as a part of their fandom have learned about the law, learned about criminal justice, learned about the difference between state court and federal court, learned about how the, the death penalty works or doesn’t work? That’s a good thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, the bad thing, of course, is for one, could it breed copycats? If people are putting Luigi Mangione up on a pedestal, are there other people out there thinking, hey, vigilante justice is okay? My issue is X. Maybe I should kill someone to advance the conversation in X. That would be a very, very bad thing, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In addition, another bad thing is, um, the meme isn’t always accurate. The description online isn’t always accurate. One thing we know has been a real issue in recent years is how do we figure out fact from something that’s not a fact? How do we verify the legitimacy of information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Well thanks so much for joining us, Daniel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you, Morgan. It was my pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s where Luigi Mangione’s case stands today. During the first week of December, around the one year anniversary of the shooting, Luigi appeared in New York state court, where he faces murder charges. This pre-trial hearing determined whether the evidence gathered during his arrest could be used in trial. His defense team argued that his backpack was searched without a warrant and therefore the 3D printed gun and handwritten notes allegedly found when he was arrested should be excluded. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His most ardent supporters came prepared. Some of them have been attending his court appearances since last December. For this recent hearing, some fans began camping in front of the courthouse days in advance. They wore sashes that said “Free Luigi” and traded handmade beaded friendship bracelets, like Swifties did during the Eras tour. Those who couldn’t get into the courtroom rallied outside, even as temperatures dipped below freezing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi is scheduled to appear in New York’s federal court in January. Prosecutors in that case are seeking the death penalty. We’ll be keeping an eye on the proceedings, but even if we close these tabs today, his fans, at least, will keep theirs open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, and edited by Jen Chien.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our senior editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Also, we want to hear from you. Email us at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or TikTok @CloseAllTabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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"radiolab": {
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"reveal": {
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"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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},
"science-friday": {
"id": "science-friday",
"title": "Science Friday",
"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
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},
"snap-judgment": {
"id": "snap-judgment",
"title": "Snap Judgment",
"tagline": "Real stories with killer beats",
"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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},
"soldout": {
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