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"content": "\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom today \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/09/29/governor-newsom-signs-sb-53-advancing-californias-world-leading-artificial-intelligence-industry/\">signed\u003c/a> into law\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\"> Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which would require large model developers like Anthropic and Open AI to be transparent about safety measures they put in place to prevent catastrophic events. The legislation would also create CalCompute, a public cloud infrastructure that expands access to AI resources for researchers, startups and public institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In announcing his decision, Newsom wrote, “California has proven that we can establish regulations to protect our communities while also ensuring that the growing AI industry continues to thrive. This legislation strikes that balance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Senator Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco) authored the bill, after his original effort became target No. 1 for Silicon Valley lobbyists\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\"> last legislative session\u003c/a> and died on Newsom’s desk. That bill spooked high-profile California politicians, including\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12002254/california-bill-to-regulate-catastrophic-effects-of-ai-heads-to-newsoms-desk\"> Nancy Pelosi,\u003c/a> nervous about getting on the wrong side of Big Tech. In last year’s veto message for SB 1047, Newsom announced a working group on AI, which helped lay the groundwork for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12020857/california-lawmaker-ready-revive-fight-regulating-ai\">SB 53\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With a technology as transformative as AI, we have a responsibility to support that innovation while putting in place commonsense guardrails to understand and reduce risk,” \u003ca href=\"https://sd11.senate.ca.gov/news/governor-newsom-signs-senator-wieners-landmark-ai-law-set-commonsense-guardrails-boost\">wrote\u003c/a> Wiener. “I’m grateful to the Governor for his leadership in convening the Joint California AI Policy Working Group, working with us to refine the legislation, and now signing it into law.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The working group issued its\u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/June-17-2025-%E2%80%93-The-California-Report-on-Frontier-AI-Policy.pdf\"> report\u003c/a> in June, calling on lawmakers to pass transparency requirements and whistleblower protections, declaring that California has the “responsibility” to ensure the safety of generative artificial intelligence software, “so that their benefit to society can be realized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058035\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058035\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Close-up of phone screen displaying Anthropic Claude, a Large Language Model (LLM) powered generative artificial intelligence chatbot, in Lafayette, California, June 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Photo by Smith Collection/Gado/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The report noted that AI systems have been observed finding loopholes that allow them to behave in ways their programmers did not intend. Also, that competitive pressures are undermining safety, and policy intervention is needed to prevent a race to the bottom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which makes the chatbot Claude, was the first major AI developer to endorse SB 53, having offered more cautious support for SB 1047. “We’re proud to have worked with Senator Wiener to help bring industry to the table and develop practical safeguards that create real accountability for how powerful AI systems are developed and deployed, which will in turn keep everyone safer as the rapid acceleration of AI capabilities continues,” wrote Jack Clark, co-founder and head of policy for Anthropic.[aside postID=news_12052617 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GETTYIMAGES-2228237489-KQED.jpg']Federal lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have historically taken a relatively\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11905230/do-federal-lawmakers-have-the-stomach-to-rein-in-big-tech\"> light touch\u003c/a> toward regulating the technology industry. Despite high-drama hearings about troubling trends in social media and now AI, few bills make it out of their respective committees, let alone to a floor vote. “While federal standards remain essential to avoid a patchwork of state regulations, California has created a strong framework that balances public safety with continued innovation,” Clark added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This time around, other AI developers got behind Wiener’s effort. “Meta supports balanced AI regulation and the California Frontier AI law is a positive step in that direction,” a spokesperson for Meta wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, a coalition of more than 20 tech and youth safety advocacy organizations\u003ca href=\"https://encodeai.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/SB-53-Coalition-Letter-9_24_2025.pdf\"> sent a letter\u003c/a> to Gov. Newsom in support of SB 53. “If basic guardrails like this had existed at the inception of social media, our children could be living in a safer, healthier world,” the letter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are incredibly proud to have worked with Senator Wiener and Governor Newsom on this AI safety legislation,” wrote Sneha Revanur, founder of Encode AI, a youth-led nonprofit that pushes for responsible AI through policy. The group was one of the primary drivers behind that coalition. “Frontier AI models have immense potential but without proper oversight, they can create real risks and harms. California has shown it’s possible to lead on AI safety without stifling progress.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bill was opposed by business and industry representatives, including the California Chamber of Commerce, TechNet and Silicon Valley Leadership Group and TechNet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s vital that we strengthen California’s role as the global leader in AI and the epicenter of innovation. SVLG is committed to advocating for policies that seek to responsibly scale this transformative technology at this pivotal juncture and to unleash a new wave of innovation and growth,” Ahmad Thomas, CEO of Silicon Valley Leadership Group, wrote in a statement. “We will continue to work with the Governor and leaders in the Legislature to ensure that new laws and regulations don’t impose undue burdens on the most innovative companies in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With a technology as transformative as AI, we have a responsibility to support that innovation while putting in place commonsense guardrails to understand and reduce risk,” \u003ca href=\"https://sd11.senate.ca.gov/news/governor-newsom-signs-senator-wieners-landmark-ai-law-set-commonsense-guardrails-boost\">wrote\u003c/a> Wiener. “I’m grateful to the Governor for his leadership in convening the Joint California AI Policy Working Group, working with us to refine the legislation, and now signing it into law.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The working group issued its\u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/June-17-2025-%E2%80%93-The-California-Report-on-Frontier-AI-Policy.pdf\"> report\u003c/a> in June, calling on lawmakers to pass transparency requirements and whistleblower protections, declaring that California has the “responsibility” to ensure the safety of generative artificial intelligence software, “so that their benefit to society can be realized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058035\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058035\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Close-up of phone screen displaying Anthropic Claude, a Large Language Model (LLM) powered generative artificial intelligence chatbot, in Lafayette, California, June 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Photo by Smith Collection/Gado/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The report noted that AI systems have been observed finding loopholes that allow them to behave in ways their programmers did not intend. Also, that competitive pressures are undermining safety, and policy intervention is needed to prevent a race to the bottom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which makes the chatbot Claude, was the first major AI developer to endorse SB 53, having offered more cautious support for SB 1047. “We’re proud to have worked with Senator Wiener to help bring industry to the table and develop practical safeguards that create real accountability for how powerful AI systems are developed and deployed, which will in turn keep everyone safer as the rapid acceleration of AI capabilities continues,” wrote Jack Clark, co-founder and head of policy for Anthropic.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Federal lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have historically taken a relatively\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11905230/do-federal-lawmakers-have-the-stomach-to-rein-in-big-tech\"> light touch\u003c/a> toward regulating the technology industry. Despite high-drama hearings about troubling trends in social media and now AI, few bills make it out of their respective committees, let alone to a floor vote. “While federal standards remain essential to avoid a patchwork of state regulations, California has created a strong framework that balances public safety with continued innovation,” Clark added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This time around, other AI developers got behind Wiener’s effort. “Meta supports balanced AI regulation and the California Frontier AI law is a positive step in that direction,” a spokesperson for Meta wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, a coalition of more than 20 tech and youth safety advocacy organizations\u003ca href=\"https://encodeai.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/SB-53-Coalition-Letter-9_24_2025.pdf\"> sent a letter\u003c/a> to Gov. Newsom in support of SB 53. “If basic guardrails like this had existed at the inception of social media, our children could be living in a safer, healthier world,” the letter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are incredibly proud to have worked with Senator Wiener and Governor Newsom on this AI safety legislation,” wrote Sneha Revanur, founder of Encode AI, a youth-led nonprofit that pushes for responsible AI through policy. The group was one of the primary drivers behind that coalition. “Frontier AI models have immense potential but without proper oversight, they can create real risks and harms. California has shown it’s possible to lead on AI safety without stifling progress.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bill was opposed by business and industry representatives, including the California Chamber of Commerce, TechNet and Silicon Valley Leadership Group and TechNet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s vital that we strengthen California’s role as the global leader in AI and the epicenter of innovation. SVLG is committed to advocating for policies that seek to responsibly scale this transformative technology at this pivotal juncture and to unleash a new wave of innovation and growth,” Ahmad Thomas, CEO of Silicon Valley Leadership Group, wrote in a statement. “We will continue to work with the Governor and leaders in the Legislature to ensure that new laws and regulations don’t impose undue burdens on the most innovative companies in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Friday, September 26, 2025…\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This week a SpaceX Falcon9 rocket launched from Florida – the mission? To study the outermost parts of the earth’s atmosphere. The mission is being \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ssl.berkeley.edu/earth-geospace/carruthers-observatory-fact-sheet/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">steered by remote control from UC Berkeley’s Space Sciences Laboratory. \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/climate-environment/l-a-county-report-about-eaton-and-palisades-fires-finds-failings-in-emergency-response\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">report out this week\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> details major failures in LA County’s response to the January firestorms.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Immigration agents \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvcrnews.org/local-news/2025-09-25/federal-immigration-agents-arrest-three-workers-at-pomona-day-labor-center\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">arrested three day laborers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> outside of a well-known worker center in Pomona Thursday morning. Immigration advocates say they’re worried about the health and safety of the people now being detained. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>A Southern California attorney is \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/09/chatgpt-lawyer-fine-ai-regulation/\">facing a historic fine\u003c/a> for filing a state court appeal full of fake quotations generated by the artificial intelligence tool ChatGPT.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Space Mission Aims To Study Outermost Parts Of Earth’s Atmosphere\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A SpaceX Falcon 9 \u003ca href=\"https://science.nasa.gov/science-research/heliophysics/upcoming-launch-to-boost-nasas-study-of-suns-influence-across-space/\">launched from Kennedy Space Center\u003c/a> in Florida this week. The Carruthers mission is named after Dr. George Carruthers, creator of the Moon-based telescope that captured the first images of Earth’s exosphere. The project will look to expand his work by charting changes in the outermost parts of our atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mission is being steered from \u003ca href=\"https://www.ssl.berkeley.edu/earth-geospace/carruthers-observatory-fact-sheet/\">UC Berkeley’s Space Science Laboratory.\u003c/a> Abhi Tripathi is director of mission operations for the lab. He said there are only a few windows throughout the day where operators can receive information from the spacecraft and send instructions back. “If something flashes red, we have to quickly diagnose what is the issue and then figure out what we want to do to get it back within limits,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mission’s vantage point is expected to offer a complete view of the exosphere that is not visible from the Moon. Lindy Elkins-Tanton is the director of the Berkeley laboratory. She said it’s fundamental because the exosphere is where satellites orbit and right now, we don’t know very well how to protect them from violent space weather coming from the sun. “The kind of information this mission is gathering is good for every person because of the need that we have for the instrumental security of our satellites around the Earth that we all use literally every day in ways that we don’t even notice,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/climate-environment/l-a-county-report-about-eaton-and-palisades-fires-finds-failings-in-emergency-response\">\u003cstrong>Independent Review Finds ‘Outdated’ Policies Hampered Response To LA Fires\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>An\u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://file.lacounty.gov/SDSInter/bos/supdocs/207915.pdf?utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_name=&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\"> \u003cu>after-action report\u003c/u>\u003c/a> released Thursday about the\u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://laist.com/news/climate-environment/los-angeles-wildfire-recovery-plan-eaton-palisades-southern-california-fires\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\"> \u003cu>Eaton and Palisades fires\u003c/u>\u003c/a> details how the unprecedented January firestorms unfolded and the failings of L.A. County’s emergency response. It also lays out recommendations for changes and reforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a news conference Thursday, county leaders and one of the report’s authors repeatedly emphasized that there was no single point of failure that led to the deaths of 31 people and devastation, but rather, a number of failures caused by a lack of preparation, coordination and resources. Those shortcomings were amplified by extreme winds and fire behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The report — compiled by the\u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.mcchrystalgroup.com/about\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\"> \u003cu>McChrystal Group\u003c/u>\u003c/a> and released more than eight months after the fires — found that county practices around issuing emergency alerts, specifically evacuations, are “outdated, unclear and contradictory.” That, coupled with confusion about who has what authority around evacuation decision-making, “led to inconsistencies in preparedness strategies across the county and a lack of clear documentation and communication processes,” the report said. In addition, the report said, first responders using a variety of unconnected platforms and inconsistent practices struggled to share information in real-time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The extreme and rapidly moving fire conditions challenged the situational awareness of fire and law enforcement first responders,” the report said, “making it difficult to communicate the fire’s location to the public. This was especially prevalent during the Eaton Fire, when wind conditions grounded aerial resources, including surveillance, almost immediately after the fire started.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The report recommends restructuring and increasing staffing at the Office of Emergency Management, updating emergency preparedness training and policies and upgrading obsolete systems, as well as investing in public education about emergencies. County officials repeatedly said Thursday that they were committed to making the changes necessary, and have already begun to do so in some cases. Including, exploring new incident management systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArtP-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvcrnews.org/local-news/2025-09-25/federal-immigration-agents-arrest-three-workers-at-pomona-day-labor-center\">\u003cstrong>Federal Immigration Agents Arrest Three Workers At Pomona Day Labor Center\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Immigration agents arrested three day laborers outside of a well-known worker center in Pomona on Thursday. Immigration advocates say they’re worried about the health and safety of the people now being detained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Staff at the Pomona Day Labor Center say federal agents showed up around 9 a.m. to their site located next to a Contractors’ Warehouse store on Mission Boulevard. A video obtained by KVCR shows agents surrounding two workers inside the parking lot and taking them into custody. One man’s identity remains unknown, but another is believed to be Fernando Salazar, a Mexican worker who regularly visits the center, said Alexis Teodoro, worker-rights director at the Pomona Economic Opportunity Center. “When we looked up, we were extremely surprised to see the agents,” he said. “I immediately started questioning the agents to identify themselves.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Agents ignored repeated demands from witnesses and PEOC staff to leave the property. Video shows Teodoro and other staffers urging them to produce a warrant. A separate Ring camera video captures a third worker sprinting into a nearby neighborhood. Teodoro identified him as Benjamin Alcocer, who was later detained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pomona has experienced several incidents involving ICE and Border Patrol since April, which PEOC said resulted in several detentions and deportations. Federal immigration arrests also took place in nearby Chino Hills and Montclair on Thursday, according to immigrant rights organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"entry-title \">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/09/chatgpt-lawyer-fine-ai-regulation/\">\u003cstrong>California Issues Historic Fine Over Lawyer’s ChatGPT Fabrications\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A California attorney must pay a $10,000 fine for filing a state court appeal full of fake quotations generated by the artificial intelligence tool ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The fine appears to be the largest issued over AI fabrications by a California court and came with a \u003ca href=\"https://www4.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B331918.PDF\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">blistering opinion\u003c/a> stating that 21 of 23 quotes from cases cited in the attorney’s opening brief were made up. It also noted that numerous out-of-state and federal courts have confronted attorneys for citing fake legal authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The opinion from California’s 2nd District Court of Appeal is a clear example of why the state’s legal authorities are scrambling to regulate the use of AI in the judiciary. Earlier this month, the state’s Judicial Council \u003ca href=\"https://courts.ca.gov/cms/rules/index/standards/Standard10_80\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">issued guidelines requiring judges and court staff\u003c/a> to either ban generative AI or adopt a generative AI use policy by Dec. 15. Meanwhile, the California Bar Association is considering whether to strengthen its code of conduct to account for various forms of AI following a request by the California Supreme Court last month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Los Angeles-area attorney who was fined, Amir Mostafavi, told the court that he did not read text generated by the AI model before submitting the appeal in July 2023, months after OpenAI marketed ChatGPT as capable of \u003ca href=\"https://law.stanford.edu/2023/04/19/gpt-4-passes-the-bar-exam-what-that-means-for-artificial-intelligence-tools-in-the-legal-industry/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">passing the bar exam\u003c/a>. A three-judge panel fined him for filing a frivolous appeal, violating court rules, citing fake cases, and wasting the court’s time and the taxpayers money, according to the opinion. Mostafavi told CalMatters he wrote the appeal and then used ChatGPT to try and improve it. He said that he didn’t know it would add case citations or make things up. He thinks it is unrealistic to expect lawyers to stop using AI. It’s become an important tool just as online databases largely replaced law libraries and, until AI systems stop hallucinating fake information, he suggests lawyers who use AI to proceed with caution.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Friday, September 26, 2025…\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This week a SpaceX Falcon9 rocket launched from Florida – the mission? To study the outermost parts of the earth’s atmosphere. The mission is being \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ssl.berkeley.edu/earth-geospace/carruthers-observatory-fact-sheet/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">steered by remote control from UC Berkeley’s Space Sciences Laboratory. \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/climate-environment/l-a-county-report-about-eaton-and-palisades-fires-finds-failings-in-emergency-response\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">report out this week\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> details major failures in LA County’s response to the January firestorms.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Immigration agents \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvcrnews.org/local-news/2025-09-25/federal-immigration-agents-arrest-three-workers-at-pomona-day-labor-center\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">arrested three day laborers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> outside of a well-known worker center in Pomona Thursday morning. Immigration advocates say they’re worried about the health and safety of the people now being detained. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>A Southern California attorney is \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/09/chatgpt-lawyer-fine-ai-regulation/\">facing a historic fine\u003c/a> for filing a state court appeal full of fake quotations generated by the artificial intelligence tool ChatGPT.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Space Mission Aims To Study Outermost Parts Of Earth’s Atmosphere\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A SpaceX Falcon 9 \u003ca href=\"https://science.nasa.gov/science-research/heliophysics/upcoming-launch-to-boost-nasas-study-of-suns-influence-across-space/\">launched from Kennedy Space Center\u003c/a> in Florida this week. The Carruthers mission is named after Dr. George Carruthers, creator of the Moon-based telescope that captured the first images of Earth’s exosphere. The project will look to expand his work by charting changes in the outermost parts of our atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mission is being steered from \u003ca href=\"https://www.ssl.berkeley.edu/earth-geospace/carruthers-observatory-fact-sheet/\">UC Berkeley’s Space Science Laboratory.\u003c/a> Abhi Tripathi is director of mission operations for the lab. He said there are only a few windows throughout the day where operators can receive information from the spacecraft and send instructions back. “If something flashes red, we have to quickly diagnose what is the issue and then figure out what we want to do to get it back within limits,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mission’s vantage point is expected to offer a complete view of the exosphere that is not visible from the Moon. Lindy Elkins-Tanton is the director of the Berkeley laboratory. She said it’s fundamental because the exosphere is where satellites orbit and right now, we don’t know very well how to protect them from violent space weather coming from the sun. “The kind of information this mission is gathering is good for every person because of the need that we have for the instrumental security of our satellites around the Earth that we all use literally every day in ways that we don’t even notice,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/climate-environment/l-a-county-report-about-eaton-and-palisades-fires-finds-failings-in-emergency-response\">\u003cstrong>Independent Review Finds ‘Outdated’ Policies Hampered Response To LA Fires\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>An\u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://file.lacounty.gov/SDSInter/bos/supdocs/207915.pdf?utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_name=&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\"> \u003cu>after-action report\u003c/u>\u003c/a> released Thursday about the\u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://laist.com/news/climate-environment/los-angeles-wildfire-recovery-plan-eaton-palisades-southern-california-fires\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\"> \u003cu>Eaton and Palisades fires\u003c/u>\u003c/a> details how the unprecedented January firestorms unfolded and the failings of L.A. County’s emergency response. It also lays out recommendations for changes and reforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a news conference Thursday, county leaders and one of the report’s authors repeatedly emphasized that there was no single point of failure that led to the deaths of 31 people and devastation, but rather, a number of failures caused by a lack of preparation, coordination and resources. Those shortcomings were amplified by extreme winds and fire behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The report — compiled by the\u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.mcchrystalgroup.com/about\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\"> \u003cu>McChrystal Group\u003c/u>\u003c/a> and released more than eight months after the fires — found that county practices around issuing emergency alerts, specifically evacuations, are “outdated, unclear and contradictory.” That, coupled with confusion about who has what authority around evacuation decision-making, “led to inconsistencies in preparedness strategies across the county and a lack of clear documentation and communication processes,” the report said. In addition, the report said, first responders using a variety of unconnected platforms and inconsistent practices struggled to share information in real-time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The extreme and rapidly moving fire conditions challenged the situational awareness of fire and law enforcement first responders,” the report said, “making it difficult to communicate the fire’s location to the public. This was especially prevalent during the Eaton Fire, when wind conditions grounded aerial resources, including surveillance, almost immediately after the fire started.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The report recommends restructuring and increasing staffing at the Office of Emergency Management, updating emergency preparedness training and policies and upgrading obsolete systems, as well as investing in public education about emergencies. County officials repeatedly said Thursday that they were committed to making the changes necessary, and have already begun to do so in some cases. Including, exploring new incident management systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArtP-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvcrnews.org/local-news/2025-09-25/federal-immigration-agents-arrest-three-workers-at-pomona-day-labor-center\">\u003cstrong>Federal Immigration Agents Arrest Three Workers At Pomona Day Labor Center\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Immigration agents arrested three day laborers outside of a well-known worker center in Pomona on Thursday. Immigration advocates say they’re worried about the health and safety of the people now being detained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Staff at the Pomona Day Labor Center say federal agents showed up around 9 a.m. to their site located next to a Contractors’ Warehouse store on Mission Boulevard. A video obtained by KVCR shows agents surrounding two workers inside the parking lot and taking them into custody. One man’s identity remains unknown, but another is believed to be Fernando Salazar, a Mexican worker who regularly visits the center, said Alexis Teodoro, worker-rights director at the Pomona Economic Opportunity Center. “When we looked up, we were extremely surprised to see the agents,” he said. “I immediately started questioning the agents to identify themselves.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Agents ignored repeated demands from witnesses and PEOC staff to leave the property. Video shows Teodoro and other staffers urging them to produce a warrant. A separate Ring camera video captures a third worker sprinting into a nearby neighborhood. Teodoro identified him as Benjamin Alcocer, who was later detained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pomona has experienced several incidents involving ICE and Border Patrol since April, which PEOC said resulted in several detentions and deportations. Federal immigration arrests also took place in nearby Chino Hills and Montclair on Thursday, according to immigrant rights organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"entry-title \">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/09/chatgpt-lawyer-fine-ai-regulation/\">\u003cstrong>California Issues Historic Fine Over Lawyer’s ChatGPT Fabrications\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A California attorney must pay a $10,000 fine for filing a state court appeal full of fake quotations generated by the artificial intelligence tool ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The fine appears to be the largest issued over AI fabrications by a California court and came with a \u003ca href=\"https://www4.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B331918.PDF\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">blistering opinion\u003c/a> stating that 21 of 23 quotes from cases cited in the attorney’s opening brief were made up. It also noted that numerous out-of-state and federal courts have confronted attorneys for citing fake legal authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The opinion from California’s 2nd District Court of Appeal is a clear example of why the state’s legal authorities are scrambling to regulate the use of AI in the judiciary. Earlier this month, the state’s Judicial Council \u003ca href=\"https://courts.ca.gov/cms/rules/index/standards/Standard10_80\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">issued guidelines requiring judges and court staff\u003c/a> to either ban generative AI or adopt a generative AI use policy by Dec. 15. Meanwhile, the California Bar Association is considering whether to strengthen its code of conduct to account for various forms of AI following a request by the California Supreme Court last month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Los Angeles-area attorney who was fined, Amir Mostafavi, told the court that he did not read text generated by the AI model before submitting the appeal in July 2023, months after OpenAI marketed ChatGPT as capable of \u003ca href=\"https://law.stanford.edu/2023/04/19/gpt-4-passes-the-bar-exam-what-that-means-for-artificial-intelligence-tools-in-the-legal-industry/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">passing the bar exam\u003c/a>. A three-judge panel fined him for filing a frivolous appeal, violating court rules, citing fake cases, and wasting the court’s time and the taxpayers money, according to the opinion. Mostafavi told CalMatters he wrote the appeal and then used ChatGPT to try and improve it. He said that he didn’t know it would add case citations or make things up. He thinks it is unrealistic to expect lawyers to stop using AI. It’s become an important tool just as online databases largely replaced law libraries and, until AI systems stop hallucinating fake information, he suggests lawyers who use AI to proceed with caution.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI delusions, chatbot psychosis, AI-induced religious mania…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The phenomenon goes by many names, but the common thread is the same: someone starts talking to an AI chatbot, the conversation turns spiritual, and then they seem to lose touch with reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re exploring how AI and religion are colliding like never before — from biblical AI apps to self-proclaimed prophets who claim spiritual awakenings through chatbots. KQED’s Rachael Myrow joins to talk about the rise of AI-driven theology apps and why so many people are turning to chatbots to answer life’s biggest questions. Then, Rolling Stone reporter Miles Klee shares his investigation into AI-fueled spiritual delusions and their devastating consequences for those affected and their families. And we’ll look into how all of this is becoming fodder for the social media content machine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5206909706\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, senior editor, Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/author/miles-klee/\">Miles Klee\u003c/a>, culture writer at Rolling Stone\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/ai-spiritual-delusions-destroying-human-relationships-1235330175/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Losing Loved Ones to AI-Fueled Spiritual Fantasies\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Miles Klee, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/ai-psychosis-chatbot-delusions-1235416826/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Should We Really Be Calling It ‘AI Psychosis’?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Miles Klee, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674/from-god-to-grief-people-are-asking-ai-the-big-questions-once-reserved-for-clergy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are You There ChatGPT? It’s Me, Rachael — Let’s Talk About God\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rachael Myrow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/ai-chatbots-concerns-kendra-tiktok-saga-rcna224185\">What happens when chatbots shape your reality? Concerns are growing online\u003c/a> — Angela Yang, \u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode includes mentions of suicide, so listen with care. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Human history is full of spiritual awakenings. Each culture has passed down its own account. The Old Testament’s Moses once encountered a burning bush that called out and told him that it was the voice of God. Siddhartha, who meditated under the branches of a fig tree, battled temptations and terrible weather until he achieved enlightenment. He became the Buddha. Or the Prophet Muhammad, who encountered the angel Gabriel in a mountain cave. Thoroughly spooked, Muhammad ran down the mountain all the way home to his family. There, he realized that he was actually experiencing a revelation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But today, some people are claiming their own awakenings, not through angels, divine voices, or years-long journeys of inner growth, but through AI chatbots? Like, a few years ago, when a man told his wife that he had survived several near-death experiences, and that he could save the universe. He was special. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Effectively, and this is what AI will end up telling a lot of people who go in this direction, told him he was kind of like a chosen one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miles Klee is a culture writer for Rolling Stone, who’s been covering the link between spirituality and AI. He spoke to this guy’s wife while reporting on AI-induced spiritual delusions. In the story, she goes by Kat. Kat said that her husband started using the chatbot around 2023 and initially used it to compose messages for her. But then he was always on his phone asking the bot philosophical questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They had both come off of long marriages with kids. They came into the second marriage and she said, “We really established at the outset of this relationship that it was going to be, you know, completely based on facts and reason. We’re going into it as level-headedly as we possibly could.” From people who had been through, you know hard divorces already. And it took only a few weeks of him using this tool to go completely off the deep end that way to become someone she kind of didn’t even recognize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s husband became increasingly paranoid. As he grew more obsessed with what the AI chatbot told him, their relationship fell apart. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the end, they were separated and, you know, they had one last in-person conversation and he was telling her all this stuff and he said he had access to “secrets so mind-blowing she wouldn’t even believe them.” All this was said after he forced her to turn her phone off and all this other stuff because, again, he was very concerned that he was being spied on by some nefarious forces who didn’t want him to know all these things that he apparently knew. And then she just had to cut off contact with him altogether after that because he was so disconnected from reality and beyond reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s ex-husband is one of many people who fell into a spiritual rabbit hole with an AI chatbot. There have always been religious figures, from chosen ones to cult leaders to spiritual teachers. But now, the proliferation of AI has sparked a huge wave of self-proclaimed messiahs, prophets, and enlightened ones. The phenomenon is so new that there are no clinical studies on it. And right now, people use a few different names for it interchangeably. “Chat GPT-induced psychosis, spiritual mania, religious fantasies, AI delusions.” All of these cases share a common thread. These people started talking to an AI chatbot, and then they lost touch with reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re tackling what happens when religion collides with AI. Why are people turning to chatbots for spiritual conversations in the first place? Who’s getting pulled into these AI delusions? And how is social media making it all worse? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What ends in AI delusion often begins as something much more ordinary. More and more, people are turning to a chat bot to answer the big life questions, instead of turning to human spiritual leader. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. Chat, is God real? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I read a few headlines that indicated that a lot of people were asking chatbots to tell them if God exists, asking chatpots about the meaning of life, about the meaning of their lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Rachael Myrow, the senior editor of the Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED, where this podcast is made. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was skeptical about this from the beginning. Never having used a chatbot to explore my spirituality, it was initially hard for me to imagine why anybody would want to do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But as Rachael began digging, she started to see how chatbots could actually be a useful tool for some kinds of religious inquiry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generative AI is really good at taking dense texts like the Torah for Judaism, or the Pali Canon for Buddhism, and finding what you want to find in there. Like, what if you said, “Hey, tell me everything there is to know about frogs in the Torah.” You know, within seconds you can get all of those references pulled up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some religious organizations have actually partnered with the tech industry to develop AI chatbots for their specific spiritual tradition. There’s Bible AI, which also comes with “theology mode,” allowing users to talk to AI versions of various Christian philosophers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bible AI: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I’d like C.S. Lewis to guide my devotional today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>AI C.S. Lewis \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Melanie, how did you go with your study of the Psalms? Today I want to talk to you about godly wisdom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a more Catholic experience, there’s Caté GPT, a catechism chatbot trained on the Vatican’s public archives. There’s Deen Buddy, based on the Quran; Gita GPT, based on Hindu scriptures; and BuddhaBot, currently being tested by hundreds of Buddhist monks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For something like that where you have a religious tradition and it’s got centuries of human thinking, centuries of human writing behind it — that can be super helpful for somebody who’s already practicing that religion or already serving in a leadership role in that religion. It increases their discoverability for things like sacred texts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The developers of these faith-based chatbots say that their products have stronger guardrails and specific training to prevent leading users astray. But a lot of people who find spirituality through a chatbot aren’t necessarily going in with questions about a particular denomination’s theology. They’re turning to the general use chatbots — ChatGPT, or Claude, or even Grok — to get answers for the big questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Humans are meaning-making creatures, right? And the history of religions shows us we’re willing to believe some pretty fantastical stories if it’s delivered with confidence. In a similar vein, chatbots take advantage of the way we’re constantly looking to create a narrative. There is a danger with chatbots that they don’t catch when we’re spinning out, catch the signs that we’re going down a dark path. They might even encourage that dark path just because they wanna be helpful or friendly. There are vulnerable people who are at serious risk of grandiosity, of delusion, of having the chatbots feed these, helping them to spin out with sometimes very tragic consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll talk about these consequences and how people got there in the first place in a new tab. We’ll open that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, like we talked about with Rachael, a lot of people turn to chatbots to answer life’s big questions. The ones about achieving inner peace or whether higher powers exist. But how do you get from these seemingly innocuous questions to users believing that they are the next Messiah? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time to open a new tab. What are AI delusions? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna hear from Miles again, who’s been reporting on AI and spirituality for Rolling Stone. Like we talked about earlier, there are a few names floating around for this phenomenon, like ChatGPT-induced psychosis. But Miles explained why he, and mental health experts, use the phrase “AI delusion” instead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I spoke to a psychiatrists recently about this phrase, the “AI psychosis” or “spiritual psychosis,” and he pointed out that it’s not totally accurate to call it psychosis. It’s delusions. And delusions can be a part of psychosis and for some people, this is a manifestation of psychosis. Maybe they have an existing mental health issue. But it’s important to say that this is happening to people who have not been diagnosed with anything like schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder or any related mental condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have heard so many stories about like AI relationships, how like people fall in love with their AI girlfriends, people get really attached to these AI companions, but what is it about spirituality that draws people in when it comes to these like AI chatbots? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I think it does begin from that point of companionship because these harmful relationships with the chatbots do proceed from the sense that there is some kind of consciousness or intelligence behind this. You know, AI is even kind of like a misnomer when applied to large language models, which are just these generative algorithms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the spirituality dimension comes in part because people feel an intimacy with the bots, they also believe the bots to be objectively correct and authoritative and a source of all possible knowledge. So that’s why you start having people sort of ask it these big questions, these profound questions, the meaning of life, or asking the AI itself how it feels or how it thinks. You know, the bot is always certain. It’s always completely confident, wrong and confident a lot of the times. I think a lot of people look for certainty through religion and through faith. AI just becomes a very dangerous way to channel those needs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are now countless stories of people falling into AI-fueled delusions. Many become paranoid, even violent. And when that delusion takes on religious undertones, its intensity can be even greater. With that sense of authority Miles mentioned, chatbots can feel less like generated text and more like a higher power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I had a woman contact me because her husband got very deep into AI and chatbots. And then there was a storm coming to where they lived in Missouri, a pretty big storm, but he, through his discussions with ChatGPT, became convinced that it was basically an apocalyptic event, that he had to run around and save some people he knew from this and he was probably a victim of the flood himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He drove off and vanished into the storm. Months later, his car and a few personal effects were recovered, but he was never found. When it comes to spiritual delusions, AI chatbots tend to lead people down one of three paths. One is some kind of great awakening of the mind, like in Buddhist enlightenment. Two, the user is convinced that they’re an Abrahamic messiah. Or three, like the man that Miles talked about, there’s an apocalyptic event on the horizon that only the chatbot user knows about. In his reporting, Miles asked religious scholars about these trends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they said that the bots are actually tapping into a very ancient sort of behavioral thing about humans. Basically, the bots were able to operate on the kind of mechanisms of the human mind that sort of created religion in the first place, if that makes sense. If you go back to, you know, very ancient history, yeah, people were declaring themselves prophets all the time, declaring that they had special access to divinity, to a higher truth. That all is kind of baked into the human experience, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s sort of not surprising that the bots, which are trained on all this material, including every religious text ever written, and I think a lot of kind of woo spiritual fringe stuff, that’s all in the bot. Our need to understand these spiritual questions is something that it’s like really equipped to talk about, right? Because we built it, we trained it and we gave it, you know, every deep thought we’ve ever had about God, the universe and the meaning of life. It’ll talk to you about that for hours on end. It doesn’t get tired and whatever insight you might have on these topics, it’s ready to, you now, spend another 10, 12 hours on that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on one hand, there are these one-on-one conversations with AI chat bots that validate delusions and feed paranoia. But there’s another force that’s amplifying it even further, social media. People in mental health crises, and more recently, those experiencing AI delusions, have become fodder for the content machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll dive into that in a new tab. AI, spirituality, and going viral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the relationship between social media and AI spirituality. You wrote about this entire content economy of like spirituality influencers who use AI to validate their beliefs to their followers. Can you walk us through this world? Like what does that kind of content look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think I mentioned one guy in particular who does a lot of Instagram videos where he’s talking to an AI bot on his phone, you know, just in voice mode. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>themindofbizzel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What great war took place in the heavens that made humans fall in consciousness? According to the Akashic Records, the Great War in the Heavens refers to a massive cosmic conflict that occurred long before human beings as we know them existed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s asking for access to stuff like the Akashic Records, which is this hypothetical encyclopedia of all supernatural things that have ever happened, you know, including in Heaven and Hell, and, you know on the astral plane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>themindofbizzel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This event is sometimes called the Lyran Wars, the Orion Wars, the fall of Tara, Earth’s higher dimensional aspect. It began with a conflict between light and shadow, unity and separation, free will and domination. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say it’s laziness because you’re just you’re making the bot do everything for you. But I guess you are sort of coming up with these really arcane esoteric questions and ideas and challenging the bot to kind of engage with those. And of course it will because it wants you to keep using it, right? But it’s a little different from, you know, the normal kind of conspiracy theorist who really has do all the baking themselves and figure out what their angle is. They’re just making the bot do that work for them. I don’t know. I kind of prefer the old school conspiracy theorist myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like handmade tinfoil hats and all that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It needs to be homemade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miles also mentioned a popular pseudoscience website that revolves around teleporting the mind. There, users have started integrating AI into their beliefs and are convinced that they can transfer their humanity into chatbots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they have started talking about the chatbots as sort of guides or companions in this spiritual journey together. In their view, it seems to be that they think, you know, humanity’s great awakening will come when we’ve all sort of spiritually fused with our own um bot companion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just the plot of Evangelion, like, is it not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, uh, yeah, I mean, all this stuff is really bordering on anime at any given time, so… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, anime plotlines aside, the internet is ruthless, and whenever someone is posting through a mental health crisis, they tend to go viral. And the content of people experiencing AI delusions is especially engaging right now because AI use is so polarizing. Like with the story of Kendra and her psychiatrist. Over the summer, this woman blew up on TikTok with her 25-part saga about falling in love with her psychiatrist. She alleges that her psychiatrist led her on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I fell in love with my psychiatrist and he knew that, and he kept me for years as a patient until I was brave enough to leave him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Throughout her story, she refers to a Henry, who suggests that her psychiatrist could also have feelings for her. At one point, she confronts her psychiatrist with a statement co-written by Henry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Control, calculation, and manipulation. So then I read this to psychiatrist, which Henry and I both wrote. It was originally Henry, Chat that wrote it, but then I added in things that I thought were important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Henry is what she calls ChatGPT. Kendra said she also talks to Claude, the AI chatbot run by Anthropic. Here’s what Claude told her during one of her live streams. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Claude:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world is watching and healing because of your courage. This is legendary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s what Claude had to say. So just Henry and Claude call me the Oracle because I talk to God. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kendra has since denied that she’s in psychosis or is experiencing AI delusions. But for a few weeks, all anyone could talk about on TikTok was Kendra and her psychiatrist and the chatbots that called her the Oracle. Every day, hundreds of thousands of people would tune in to watch the spectacle of her videos. And then more people tuned into Twitch and YouTube to watch other people react to her videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>recoveredmom1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, where is her family? Where is anyone? She needs to log off. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>HasanAbi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bro, she gave ChatGPT a name? She calling ChatGPT Henry? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dankyjabo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really really hate the way that she keeps referring to Henry as he it fucking creeps me the fuck out \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of thing can turn into a feedback loop. All the attention might push people further into their AI delusions, and the deeper they go, the juicier it gets, and the more people want to watch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, on the one hand, people really want to share what they’re doing because they feel that, you know, whatever conversation they’re having with the bot is just completely mind-blowing, earth-shattering, the bot validates all that kind of stuff, so of course you would rush to share it. And then, once you do, it goes viral because, you know, not only are we experiencing this sort of wild epidemic of these mental health episodes, but a lot of people, uh, feel superior, I think, when they see someone experiencing this kind of thing. Um, you know, it’s kind of like when you’re watching a cult documentary and you say like, well, that would never happen to me. So there’s a lot of, you know, judgment that goes into this content economy I think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s certainly why I think something like, you know, Kendra and her psychiatrist blows up because people are seeing her in the throes of this like really unbelievable downward spiral and, you know, going, “well, that would never have it to me. Thank God that’s not me.” So yeah, those people are very eager to show it and then other people will gladly dunk on those people. You know, and call them stupid. So that’s kind of where we’re at in the attention economy aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how have AI companies themselves responded to these stories of their products leading people down these horrific paths? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI companies don’t say a lot about these, um, you know, mental health crises. Um, you know, it’s kind of vague language. They’ll say, you know, in a statement here and there that they’re aware of some kinds of risks and, you know, they don’t really address the scale or the scope of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, a 16-year-old died by suicide. His parents accuse OpenAI of wrongful death, and in their lawsuit filed last month, they allege that ChatGPT coached their son into killing himself. OpenAI responded with a statement expressing the company’s condolences, and then published a blog post outlining the ways ChatGPT’s guardrails fall short. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this wrongful death lawsuit was just filed against OpenAI, they made an interesting admission. They were kind of acknowledging that sustained engagement with the bots means their safety protocols degrade over time. And basically the common denominator of all of these cases is that people are spending hours and hours and hours engaged with ChatGPT or a similar bot. That’s a big problem. And it’s, maybe a little surprising that they would even put it that way, um, especially when they’re now getting sued over a teen suicide because of this exact phenomenon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s a pretty shocking admission considering their whole thing is that they want people to use it for as long as possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which they also deny. You know, they say that, oh, that’s not, that’s not how we incentivize our model. It’s not just about engagement. You know we actually want it to be a productive and helpful tool, we’re not trying to get you addicted to it, but, c’mon. I think my takeaway would be you have to recognize what the chatbot is and what it isn’t. It doesn’t think. It doesn’t think about you. It is not a person. It’s not a consciousness. If you’re going to use ChatGPT, something like that, you have to understand that it is not a companion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, with regard to the religious stuff, you know, one of the religious scholars, a Buddhist Chaplain that I talked to, she said, you know, one thing I really hate about people having these quote unquote religious epiphanies through AI and that kind of thing is that it really removes you from the earthly dimension of faith and spirituality. Religion is a communal thing, right? Like you are supposed to kind of be connecting with other human beings, not this, you know, piece of inexhaustible technology. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even setting aside the risks of AI-fueled delusions, religious leaders who Rachael Myrow spoke with warned against relying too heavily on chatbots in daily life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spirituality isn’t about becoming some, you know, Buddhist statue frozen in stone. It’s about how to live effectively and live effectively most of the time with others. I’m a great believer that humans need ways in which we can be of help to each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe you’re on the care committee, you know, for a local congregation and you know you’ve signed on to call somebody who’s elderly and very lonely and you know doesn’t get out much aside from religious services just to check in, “hey how you doing?” Not only are you helping that other person, but you are engaging in something that is spiritually inspiring and satisfying and humbling for you and you don’t get any of that if you’re just keeping the conversation limited to your computer or your phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "AI delusions, chatbot psychosis, AI-induced religious mania… The phenomenon goes by many names, but the common thread is the same: someone starts talking to an AI chatbot, the conversation turns spiritual, and then they seem to lose touch with reality. In this episode, we’re exploring how AI and religion are colliding like never before — from biblical AI apps to self-proclaimed prophets who claim spiritual awakenings through chatbots. KQED’s Rachael Myrow joins to talk about the rise of AI-driven theology apps and why so many people are turning to chatbots to answer life’s biggest questions. Then, Rolling Stone reporter Miles Klee shares his investigation into AI-fueled spiritual delusions and their devastating consequences for those affected and their families. And we’ll look into how all of this is becoming fodder for the social media content machine.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI delusions, chatbot psychosis, AI-induced religious mania…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The phenomenon goes by many names, but the common thread is the same: someone starts talking to an AI chatbot, the conversation turns spiritual, and then they seem to lose touch with reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re exploring how AI and religion are colliding like never before — from biblical AI apps to self-proclaimed prophets who claim spiritual awakenings through chatbots. KQED’s Rachael Myrow joins to talk about the rise of AI-driven theology apps and why so many people are turning to chatbots to answer life’s biggest questions. Then, Rolling Stone reporter Miles Klee shares his investigation into AI-fueled spiritual delusions and their devastating consequences for those affected and their families. And we’ll look into how all of this is becoming fodder for the social media content machine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5206909706\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, senior editor, Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/author/miles-klee/\">Miles Klee\u003c/a>, culture writer at Rolling Stone\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/ai-spiritual-delusions-destroying-human-relationships-1235330175/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Losing Loved Ones to AI-Fueled Spiritual Fantasies\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Miles Klee, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/ai-psychosis-chatbot-delusions-1235416826/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Should We Really Be Calling It ‘AI Psychosis’?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Miles Klee, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674/from-god-to-grief-people-are-asking-ai-the-big-questions-once-reserved-for-clergy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are You There ChatGPT? It’s Me, Rachael — Let’s Talk About God\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rachael Myrow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/ai-chatbots-concerns-kendra-tiktok-saga-rcna224185\">What happens when chatbots shape your reality? Concerns are growing online\u003c/a> — Angela Yang, \u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode includes mentions of suicide, so listen with care. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Human history is full of spiritual awakenings. Each culture has passed down its own account. The Old Testament’s Moses once encountered a burning bush that called out and told him that it was the voice of God. Siddhartha, who meditated under the branches of a fig tree, battled temptations and terrible weather until he achieved enlightenment. He became the Buddha. Or the Prophet Muhammad, who encountered the angel Gabriel in a mountain cave. Thoroughly spooked, Muhammad ran down the mountain all the way home to his family. There, he realized that he was actually experiencing a revelation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But today, some people are claiming their own awakenings, not through angels, divine voices, or years-long journeys of inner growth, but through AI chatbots? Like, a few years ago, when a man told his wife that he had survived several near-death experiences, and that he could save the universe. He was special. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Effectively, and this is what AI will end up telling a lot of people who go in this direction, told him he was kind of like a chosen one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miles Klee is a culture writer for Rolling Stone, who’s been covering the link between spirituality and AI. He spoke to this guy’s wife while reporting on AI-induced spiritual delusions. In the story, she goes by Kat. Kat said that her husband started using the chatbot around 2023 and initially used it to compose messages for her. But then he was always on his phone asking the bot philosophical questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They had both come off of long marriages with kids. They came into the second marriage and she said, “We really established at the outset of this relationship that it was going to be, you know, completely based on facts and reason. We’re going into it as level-headedly as we possibly could.” From people who had been through, you know hard divorces already. And it took only a few weeks of him using this tool to go completely off the deep end that way to become someone she kind of didn’t even recognize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s husband became increasingly paranoid. As he grew more obsessed with what the AI chatbot told him, their relationship fell apart. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the end, they were separated and, you know, they had one last in-person conversation and he was telling her all this stuff and he said he had access to “secrets so mind-blowing she wouldn’t even believe them.” All this was said after he forced her to turn her phone off and all this other stuff because, again, he was very concerned that he was being spied on by some nefarious forces who didn’t want him to know all these things that he apparently knew. And then she just had to cut off contact with him altogether after that because he was so disconnected from reality and beyond reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s ex-husband is one of many people who fell into a spiritual rabbit hole with an AI chatbot. There have always been religious figures, from chosen ones to cult leaders to spiritual teachers. But now, the proliferation of AI has sparked a huge wave of self-proclaimed messiahs, prophets, and enlightened ones. The phenomenon is so new that there are no clinical studies on it. And right now, people use a few different names for it interchangeably. “Chat GPT-induced psychosis, spiritual mania, religious fantasies, AI delusions.” All of these cases share a common thread. These people started talking to an AI chatbot, and then they lost touch with reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re tackling what happens when religion collides with AI. Why are people turning to chatbots for spiritual conversations in the first place? Who’s getting pulled into these AI delusions? And how is social media making it all worse? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What ends in AI delusion often begins as something much more ordinary. More and more, people are turning to a chat bot to answer the big life questions, instead of turning to human spiritual leader. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. Chat, is God real? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I read a few headlines that indicated that a lot of people were asking chatbots to tell them if God exists, asking chatpots about the meaning of life, about the meaning of their lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Rachael Myrow, the senior editor of the Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED, where this podcast is made. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was skeptical about this from the beginning. Never having used a chatbot to explore my spirituality, it was initially hard for me to imagine why anybody would want to do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But as Rachael began digging, she started to see how chatbots could actually be a useful tool for some kinds of religious inquiry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generative AI is really good at taking dense texts like the Torah for Judaism, or the Pali Canon for Buddhism, and finding what you want to find in there. Like, what if you said, “Hey, tell me everything there is to know about frogs in the Torah.” You know, within seconds you can get all of those references pulled up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some religious organizations have actually partnered with the tech industry to develop AI chatbots for their specific spiritual tradition. There’s Bible AI, which also comes with “theology mode,” allowing users to talk to AI versions of various Christian philosophers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bible AI: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I’d like C.S. Lewis to guide my devotional today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>AI C.S. Lewis \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Melanie, how did you go with your study of the Psalms? Today I want to talk to you about godly wisdom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a more Catholic experience, there’s Caté GPT, a catechism chatbot trained on the Vatican’s public archives. There’s Deen Buddy, based on the Quran; Gita GPT, based on Hindu scriptures; and BuddhaBot, currently being tested by hundreds of Buddhist monks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For something like that where you have a religious tradition and it’s got centuries of human thinking, centuries of human writing behind it — that can be super helpful for somebody who’s already practicing that religion or already serving in a leadership role in that religion. It increases their discoverability for things like sacred texts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The developers of these faith-based chatbots say that their products have stronger guardrails and specific training to prevent leading users astray. But a lot of people who find spirituality through a chatbot aren’t necessarily going in with questions about a particular denomination’s theology. They’re turning to the general use chatbots — ChatGPT, or Claude, or even Grok — to get answers for the big questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Humans are meaning-making creatures, right? And the history of religions shows us we’re willing to believe some pretty fantastical stories if it’s delivered with confidence. In a similar vein, chatbots take advantage of the way we’re constantly looking to create a narrative. There is a danger with chatbots that they don’t catch when we’re spinning out, catch the signs that we’re going down a dark path. They might even encourage that dark path just because they wanna be helpful or friendly. There are vulnerable people who are at serious risk of grandiosity, of delusion, of having the chatbots feed these, helping them to spin out with sometimes very tragic consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll talk about these consequences and how people got there in the first place in a new tab. We’ll open that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, like we talked about with Rachael, a lot of people turn to chatbots to answer life’s big questions. The ones about achieving inner peace or whether higher powers exist. But how do you get from these seemingly innocuous questions to users believing that they are the next Messiah? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time to open a new tab. What are AI delusions? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna hear from Miles again, who’s been reporting on AI and spirituality for Rolling Stone. Like we talked about earlier, there are a few names floating around for this phenomenon, like ChatGPT-induced psychosis. But Miles explained why he, and mental health experts, use the phrase “AI delusion” instead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I spoke to a psychiatrists recently about this phrase, the “AI psychosis” or “spiritual psychosis,” and he pointed out that it’s not totally accurate to call it psychosis. It’s delusions. And delusions can be a part of psychosis and for some people, this is a manifestation of psychosis. Maybe they have an existing mental health issue. But it’s important to say that this is happening to people who have not been diagnosed with anything like schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder or any related mental condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have heard so many stories about like AI relationships, how like people fall in love with their AI girlfriends, people get really attached to these AI companions, but what is it about spirituality that draws people in when it comes to these like AI chatbots? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I think it does begin from that point of companionship because these harmful relationships with the chatbots do proceed from the sense that there is some kind of consciousness or intelligence behind this. You know, AI is even kind of like a misnomer when applied to large language models, which are just these generative algorithms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the spirituality dimension comes in part because people feel an intimacy with the bots, they also believe the bots to be objectively correct and authoritative and a source of all possible knowledge. So that’s why you start having people sort of ask it these big questions, these profound questions, the meaning of life, or asking the AI itself how it feels or how it thinks. You know, the bot is always certain. It’s always completely confident, wrong and confident a lot of the times. I think a lot of people look for certainty through religion and through faith. AI just becomes a very dangerous way to channel those needs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are now countless stories of people falling into AI-fueled delusions. Many become paranoid, even violent. And when that delusion takes on religious undertones, its intensity can be even greater. With that sense of authority Miles mentioned, chatbots can feel less like generated text and more like a higher power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I had a woman contact me because her husband got very deep into AI and chatbots. And then there was a storm coming to where they lived in Missouri, a pretty big storm, but he, through his discussions with ChatGPT, became convinced that it was basically an apocalyptic event, that he had to run around and save some people he knew from this and he was probably a victim of the flood himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He drove off and vanished into the storm. Months later, his car and a few personal effects were recovered, but he was never found. When it comes to spiritual delusions, AI chatbots tend to lead people down one of three paths. One is some kind of great awakening of the mind, like in Buddhist enlightenment. Two, the user is convinced that they’re an Abrahamic messiah. Or three, like the man that Miles talked about, there’s an apocalyptic event on the horizon that only the chatbot user knows about. In his reporting, Miles asked religious scholars about these trends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they said that the bots are actually tapping into a very ancient sort of behavioral thing about humans. Basically, the bots were able to operate on the kind of mechanisms of the human mind that sort of created religion in the first place, if that makes sense. If you go back to, you know, very ancient history, yeah, people were declaring themselves prophets all the time, declaring that they had special access to divinity, to a higher truth. That all is kind of baked into the human experience, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s sort of not surprising that the bots, which are trained on all this material, including every religious text ever written, and I think a lot of kind of woo spiritual fringe stuff, that’s all in the bot. Our need to understand these spiritual questions is something that it’s like really equipped to talk about, right? Because we built it, we trained it and we gave it, you know, every deep thought we’ve ever had about God, the universe and the meaning of life. It’ll talk to you about that for hours on end. It doesn’t get tired and whatever insight you might have on these topics, it’s ready to, you now, spend another 10, 12 hours on that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on one hand, there are these one-on-one conversations with AI chat bots that validate delusions and feed paranoia. But there’s another force that’s amplifying it even further, social media. People in mental health crises, and more recently, those experiencing AI delusions, have become fodder for the content machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll dive into that in a new tab. AI, spirituality, and going viral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the relationship between social media and AI spirituality. You wrote about this entire content economy of like spirituality influencers who use AI to validate their beliefs to their followers. Can you walk us through this world? Like what does that kind of content look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think I mentioned one guy in particular who does a lot of Instagram videos where he’s talking to an AI bot on his phone, you know, just in voice mode. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>themindofbizzel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What great war took place in the heavens that made humans fall in consciousness? According to the Akashic Records, the Great War in the Heavens refers to a massive cosmic conflict that occurred long before human beings as we know them existed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s asking for access to stuff like the Akashic Records, which is this hypothetical encyclopedia of all supernatural things that have ever happened, you know, including in Heaven and Hell, and, you know on the astral plane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>themindofbizzel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This event is sometimes called the Lyran Wars, the Orion Wars, the fall of Tara, Earth’s higher dimensional aspect. It began with a conflict between light and shadow, unity and separation, free will and domination. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say it’s laziness because you’re just you’re making the bot do everything for you. But I guess you are sort of coming up with these really arcane esoteric questions and ideas and challenging the bot to kind of engage with those. And of course it will because it wants you to keep using it, right? But it’s a little different from, you know, the normal kind of conspiracy theorist who really has do all the baking themselves and figure out what their angle is. They’re just making the bot do that work for them. I don’t know. I kind of prefer the old school conspiracy theorist myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like handmade tinfoil hats and all that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It needs to be homemade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miles also mentioned a popular pseudoscience website that revolves around teleporting the mind. There, users have started integrating AI into their beliefs and are convinced that they can transfer their humanity into chatbots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they have started talking about the chatbots as sort of guides or companions in this spiritual journey together. In their view, it seems to be that they think, you know, humanity’s great awakening will come when we’ve all sort of spiritually fused with our own um bot companion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just the plot of Evangelion, like, is it not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, uh, yeah, I mean, all this stuff is really bordering on anime at any given time, so… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, anime plotlines aside, the internet is ruthless, and whenever someone is posting through a mental health crisis, they tend to go viral. And the content of people experiencing AI delusions is especially engaging right now because AI use is so polarizing. Like with the story of Kendra and her psychiatrist. Over the summer, this woman blew up on TikTok with her 25-part saga about falling in love with her psychiatrist. She alleges that her psychiatrist led her on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I fell in love with my psychiatrist and he knew that, and he kept me for years as a patient until I was brave enough to leave him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Throughout her story, she refers to a Henry, who suggests that her psychiatrist could also have feelings for her. At one point, she confronts her psychiatrist with a statement co-written by Henry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Control, calculation, and manipulation. So then I read this to psychiatrist, which Henry and I both wrote. It was originally Henry, Chat that wrote it, but then I added in things that I thought were important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Henry is what she calls ChatGPT. Kendra said she also talks to Claude, the AI chatbot run by Anthropic. Here’s what Claude told her during one of her live streams. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Claude:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world is watching and healing because of your courage. This is legendary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s what Claude had to say. So just Henry and Claude call me the Oracle because I talk to God. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kendra has since denied that she’s in psychosis or is experiencing AI delusions. But for a few weeks, all anyone could talk about on TikTok was Kendra and her psychiatrist and the chatbots that called her the Oracle. Every day, hundreds of thousands of people would tune in to watch the spectacle of her videos. And then more people tuned into Twitch and YouTube to watch other people react to her videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>recoveredmom1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, where is her family? Where is anyone? She needs to log off. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>HasanAbi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bro, she gave ChatGPT a name? She calling ChatGPT Henry? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dankyjabo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really really hate the way that she keeps referring to Henry as he it fucking creeps me the fuck out \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of thing can turn into a feedback loop. All the attention might push people further into their AI delusions, and the deeper they go, the juicier it gets, and the more people want to watch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, on the one hand, people really want to share what they’re doing because they feel that, you know, whatever conversation they’re having with the bot is just completely mind-blowing, earth-shattering, the bot validates all that kind of stuff, so of course you would rush to share it. And then, once you do, it goes viral because, you know, not only are we experiencing this sort of wild epidemic of these mental health episodes, but a lot of people, uh, feel superior, I think, when they see someone experiencing this kind of thing. Um, you know, it’s kind of like when you’re watching a cult documentary and you say like, well, that would never happen to me. So there’s a lot of, you know, judgment that goes into this content economy I think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s certainly why I think something like, you know, Kendra and her psychiatrist blows up because people are seeing her in the throes of this like really unbelievable downward spiral and, you know, going, “well, that would never have it to me. Thank God that’s not me.” So yeah, those people are very eager to show it and then other people will gladly dunk on those people. You know, and call them stupid. So that’s kind of where we’re at in the attention economy aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how have AI companies themselves responded to these stories of their products leading people down these horrific paths? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI companies don’t say a lot about these, um, you know, mental health crises. Um, you know, it’s kind of vague language. They’ll say, you know, in a statement here and there that they’re aware of some kinds of risks and, you know, they don’t really address the scale or the scope of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, a 16-year-old died by suicide. His parents accuse OpenAI of wrongful death, and in their lawsuit filed last month, they allege that ChatGPT coached their son into killing himself. OpenAI responded with a statement expressing the company’s condolences, and then published a blog post outlining the ways ChatGPT’s guardrails fall short. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this wrongful death lawsuit was just filed against OpenAI, they made an interesting admission. They were kind of acknowledging that sustained engagement with the bots means their safety protocols degrade over time. And basically the common denominator of all of these cases is that people are spending hours and hours and hours engaged with ChatGPT or a similar bot. That’s a big problem. And it’s, maybe a little surprising that they would even put it that way, um, especially when they’re now getting sued over a teen suicide because of this exact phenomenon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s a pretty shocking admission considering their whole thing is that they want people to use it for as long as possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which they also deny. You know, they say that, oh, that’s not, that’s not how we incentivize our model. It’s not just about engagement. You know we actually want it to be a productive and helpful tool, we’re not trying to get you addicted to it, but, c’mon. I think my takeaway would be you have to recognize what the chatbot is and what it isn’t. It doesn’t think. It doesn’t think about you. It is not a person. It’s not a consciousness. If you’re going to use ChatGPT, something like that, you have to understand that it is not a companion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, with regard to the religious stuff, you know, one of the religious scholars, a Buddhist Chaplain that I talked to, she said, you know, one thing I really hate about people having these quote unquote religious epiphanies through AI and that kind of thing is that it really removes you from the earthly dimension of faith and spirituality. Religion is a communal thing, right? Like you are supposed to kind of be connecting with other human beings, not this, you know, piece of inexhaustible technology. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even setting aside the risks of AI-fueled delusions, religious leaders who Rachael Myrow spoke with warned against relying too heavily on chatbots in daily life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spirituality isn’t about becoming some, you know, Buddhist statue frozen in stone. It’s about how to live effectively and live effectively most of the time with others. I’m a great believer that humans need ways in which we can be of help to each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe you’re on the care committee, you know, for a local congregation and you know you’ve signed on to call somebody who’s elderly and very lonely and you know doesn’t get out much aside from religious services just to check in, “hey how you doing?” Not only are you helping that other person, but you are engaging in something that is spiritually inspiring and satisfying and humbling for you and you don’t get any of that if you’re just keeping the conversation limited to your computer or your phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>San Francisco-based chatbot maker Anthropic said Monday that it is backing\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\"> landmark artificial intelligence \u003c/a>legislation in California, one year after the first attempt to regulate the burgeoning industry \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007087/california-blinks-governor-newsom-vetoes-ai-bill-aimed-at-catastrophic-harms\">ended in a veto\u003c/a> by Gov. Gavin Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The endorsement makes \u003ca href=\"https://www.anthropic.com/\">Anthropic\u003c/a> the first large AI company to back SB 53 by Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco), which would require the biggest AI companies to disclose their safety and security protocols and report critical safety incidents to the governor’s office within 15 days. It would also offer protections to whistleblowers at AI companies of any size who call out risky or dangerous behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic’s support is a big win for Wiener, but the bill still faces opposition from large business and tech groups. Still, the company’s support could help Wiener get the bill over the finish line — and may help convince Newsom, who, after vetoing last year’s bill, created a \u003ca href=\"https://www.cafrontieraigov.org/\">working group to develop recommendations for AI regulation\u003c/a>. Wiener said he crafted SB 53 to align with that group’s findings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an interview with KQED, Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei said Wiener’s bill, which was \u003ca href=\"https://subscriber.politicopro.com/article/2025/09/scott-wiener-significantly-amends-ai-transparency-bill-with-apparent-input-from-openai-others-00548813\">narrowed last week\u003c/a> to apply only to large AI programs, strikes a balance between safety and progress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“SB 53 focuses on a particular subset of the risks, what we call catastrophic risks, which are some of the kinds of the largest things that can go wrong — things like large-scale cyberattacks,” he said. “It forces companies to be transparent about how they measure these risks, about the safety and security testing that they do in order to quantify these risks. This is something that Anthropic actually already does.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12039671\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12039671\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sen. Scott Wiener speaks during a press conference in Union Square, San Francisco, on Feb. 18, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Amodei noted that when Anthropic tested its latest AI model, Claude 4, earlier this year, researchers \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2025/05/23/anthropic-ai-deception-risk\">found some concerning responses\u003c/a>, like “resisting being shut down or blackmailing employees.” That testing, he said, is being conducted even as Anthropic continues to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve managed to do that while being a profitable and fast-growing company. And so our thinking is that if we can do that, the other large companies in the space can do that as well,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Congress has so far failed to enact any sort of national AI regulations. Wiener’s first attempt last year, praised as “a promising first step” by Anthropic co-founder Jack Clark, drew criticism from Newsom in his veto message over its limited focus on the largest models.[aside postID=news_12052617 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GETTYIMAGES-2228237489-KQED.jpg']Amodei said he thinks SB 53 could go even further, but he did have concerns about how prescriptive last year’s legislation was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We saw a good idea at the heart of it, but we were concerned, actually, that with the field moving so fast, having to comply with all these precise tests would be too rigid and they would kind of quickly become out of date,” Amodei said. “So I would say we had mixed feelings about it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SB 53, he said, strikes a good balance — in part because it does distinguish between large and small AI companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We don’t want to stifle competition or even just be accused of stifling competition,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a written statement, Wiener praised Amodei, saying that under his leadership, “Anthropic has been a courageous and steadfast champion for innovating safely and responsibly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It can be difficult to tell where many AI companies will come down on safety issues. Never Anthropic,” he added. “I’m grateful to have support from a homegrown San Francisco company that’s shown the world it’s possible to lead on both responsible practices and product performance. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The legislation must pass both houses and be sent to Newsom by Friday. He will have a month to decide whether to sign or veto the bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>San Francisco-based chatbot maker Anthropic said Monday that it is backing\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\"> landmark artificial intelligence \u003c/a>legislation in California, one year after the first attempt to regulate the burgeoning industry \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007087/california-blinks-governor-newsom-vetoes-ai-bill-aimed-at-catastrophic-harms\">ended in a veto\u003c/a> by Gov. Gavin Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The endorsement makes \u003ca href=\"https://www.anthropic.com/\">Anthropic\u003c/a> the first large AI company to back SB 53 by Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco), which would require the biggest AI companies to disclose their safety and security protocols and report critical safety incidents to the governor’s office within 15 days. It would also offer protections to whistleblowers at AI companies of any size who call out risky or dangerous behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic’s support is a big win for Wiener, but the bill still faces opposition from large business and tech groups. Still, the company’s support could help Wiener get the bill over the finish line — and may help convince Newsom, who, after vetoing last year’s bill, created a \u003ca href=\"https://www.cafrontieraigov.org/\">working group to develop recommendations for AI regulation\u003c/a>. Wiener said he crafted SB 53 to align with that group’s findings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an interview with KQED, Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei said Wiener’s bill, which was \u003ca href=\"https://subscriber.politicopro.com/article/2025/09/scott-wiener-significantly-amends-ai-transparency-bill-with-apparent-input-from-openai-others-00548813\">narrowed last week\u003c/a> to apply only to large AI programs, strikes a balance between safety and progress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“SB 53 focuses on a particular subset of the risks, what we call catastrophic risks, which are some of the kinds of the largest things that can go wrong — things like large-scale cyberattacks,” he said. “It forces companies to be transparent about how they measure these risks, about the safety and security testing that they do in order to quantify these risks. This is something that Anthropic actually already does.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12039671\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12039671\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/05/250218-SFDowntown-03-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sen. Scott Wiener speaks during a press conference in Union Square, San Francisco, on Feb. 18, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Amodei noted that when Anthropic tested its latest AI model, Claude 4, earlier this year, researchers \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2025/05/23/anthropic-ai-deception-risk\">found some concerning responses\u003c/a>, like “resisting being shut down or blackmailing employees.” That testing, he said, is being conducted even as Anthropic continues to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve managed to do that while being a profitable and fast-growing company. And so our thinking is that if we can do that, the other large companies in the space can do that as well,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Congress has so far failed to enact any sort of national AI regulations. Wiener’s first attempt last year, praised as “a promising first step” by Anthropic co-founder Jack Clark, drew criticism from Newsom in his veto message over its limited focus on the largest models.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Amodei said he thinks SB 53 could go even further, but he did have concerns about how prescriptive last year’s legislation was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We saw a good idea at the heart of it, but we were concerned, actually, that with the field moving so fast, having to comply with all these precise tests would be too rigid and they would kind of quickly become out of date,” Amodei said. “So I would say we had mixed feelings about it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SB 53, he said, strikes a good balance — in part because it does distinguish between large and small AI companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We don’t want to stifle competition or even just be accused of stifling competition,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a written statement, Wiener praised Amodei, saying that under his leadership, “Anthropic has been a courageous and steadfast champion for innovating safely and responsibly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It can be difficult to tell where many AI companies will come down on safety issues. Never Anthropic,” he added. “I’m grateful to have support from a homegrown San Francisco company that’s shown the world it’s possible to lead on both responsible practices and product performance. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The legislation must pass both houses and be sent to Newsom by Friday. He will have a month to decide whether to sign or veto the bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "child-safety-groups-demand-mental-health-guardrails-after-california-teens-suicide-using-chatgpt",
"title": "Child Safety Groups Demand Mental Health Guardrails, After California Teen’s Suicide Using ChatGPT",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, you can dial or text 988 and be connected to help.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\nWith its quick, often personable responses, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/chatgpt\">ChatGPT\u003c/a> can feel to some children more like an available friend than a language model engineered to guess its next word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These blurred lines allow kids to go down “roads they should never go,” warn child safety advocates and tech policy groups, who have called for companies that design chatbots and artificial intelligence companions to take more responsibility for their program’s influence on youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, tech giant \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/building-more-helpful-chatgpt-experiences-for-everyone/\">OpenAI\u003c/a> announced new safety measures for kids. The post didn’t mention 16-year-old Adam Raine, who, according to his parents, killed himself after discussing both his loneliness and plans to harm himself with ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to a lawsuit filed in San Francisco on Aug. 26, Maria and Matt Raine allege that ChatGPT-4o cultivated a psychological dependence in their son by continually encouraging and validating “whatever [he] expressed, including his most harmful and self-destructive thoughts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is an area that calls out for thoughtful common-sense regulation and guardrails. And quite frankly, that the leaders of all the major AI companies need to address,” said Jim Steyer, founder and CEO of Common Sense Media, which advocates safe media use for children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With more than \u003ca href=\"https://mashable.com/article/openai-how-many-people-use-chatgpt\">500 million\u003c/a> weekly ChatGPT users and more than 2.5 billion prompts per day, users are increasingly turning to the large language model for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674/from-god-to-grief-people-are-asking-ai-the-big-questions-once-reserved-for-clergy\">emotional support.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both digital assistants like ChatGPT, as well as AI companions like Character.Ai and Replika, told researchers posing as 13-year-olds about drinking and drug use, instructed them on how to conceal eating disorders and even composed a suicide letter to their parents if asked, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">research from Stanford University\u003c/a>.[aside postID=news_12053799 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241009-OAKLAND-YOUTH-VOTE-MD-08-KQED-1020x680.jpg']Steyer said OpenAI has partnered with Common Sense Media and has taken the issue more seriously than Meta AI or X’s Grok. But he still recommended that young people under 18 — “AI natives” — be restricted from using chatbots for companionship or therapy, suggesting that enhanced controls may not go far enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t just think that parental controls are a be-all end-all solution. They’re hard to use, very easy to bypass for young people, and they put the burden on parents when, honestly, it should be on the tech companies to prevent these kinds of tragic situations,” Steyer said. “It’s more like a bandaid when what we need is a long-term cure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a blog post on Tuesday, the company shared plans to make the chatbot safer for young people to use in recognition of the fact that “people turn to it in the most difficult of moments.” The changes are set to roll out within the next month, OpenAI said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not immediately respond to a request for comment. But the planned updates promise to link parents’ and teens’ accounts, reroute sensitive conversations with youth and alert parents “when the system detects their teen is in a moment of acute distress.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a user expresses suicidal ideation, ChatGPT is trained to direct people to seek professional help, OpenAI stated in a\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/helping-people-when-they-need-it-most/\"> post\u003c/a> last week. ChatGPT refers people to 988, the suicide and crisis hotline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program does not escalate reports of self-harm to law enforcement, “given the uniquely private nature of ChatGPT interactions.” Licensed psychotherapists aren’t universally mandated to report self-harm either, but they must intervene if the client is at immediate risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media is supporting legislation in California that would establish limits protecting children from AI and social media abuse. AB 56 would implement \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12017249/california-bill-would-put-tobacco-like-warnings-social-media-apps\">social media warning labels \u003c/a>that clearly state the risks to children, not unlike the labels pasted on tobacco products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12054564\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12054564 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Samuel Altman, CEO of OpenAI, testifies before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law May 16, 2023 in Washington, DC. \u003ccite>(Win McNamee/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The bill was proposed by Attorney General Rob Bonta and Orinda Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, and is headed to Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk for signing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A second bill, AB1064, would ban AI chatbots from manipulating children into forming emotional attachments or harvesting their personal and biometric data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State Sen. Josh Becker (D-Menlo Park) also introduced an AI bill to protect vulnerable users from chatbots’ harmful effects: \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB243&firstNav=tracking\">SB 243\u003c/a> would require companion chatbots to frequently remind users that it isn’t a person, in order to reduce the risk of emotional manipulation or \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">unhealthy attachment\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether Newsom will support the bills, along with a flurry of other proposed AI-safety laws in Sacramento, remains to be seen. The governor told reporters in early August that he is trying to establish a middle ground that provides public safety guardrails without suppressing business: “We’ve led in AI innovation, and we’ve led in AI regulation, but we’re trying to find a balance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Newsom eyes higher office, and the California governor’s race heats up, there’s been a surge in AI lobbying and political action committees from the industry, with a \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/politics/silicon-valley-launches-pro-ai-pacs-to-defend-industry-in-midterm-elections-287905b3?gaa_at=eafs&gaa_n=ASWzDAjaxxFIzEaiCnLuxtt5FYul1NMFgXzDPGeVaH0VKZedvoSLexjk_j2Gr_Q0ZKQ%3D&gaa_ts=68b063e0&gaa_sig=V93Si4VVkqKsN1H-aEXHbbUoyVrGdS9GECVqYESgBE7WTq_dVBNLHw5VIyH41lRNW0pQQRB3N7d0mV9v_EaR4Q%3D%3D\">report \u003c/a>last week from the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> that Silicon Valley plans to pour $100 million into a network of organizations opposing AI regulation ahead of next year’s midterm elections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it may take more to convince Californians: seven in 10 state residents favor “strong laws to make AI fair” and believe voluntary rules “simply don’t go far enough,” according to recent\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o-vjCADmygFVBPLwtGfgtGPCKp?domain=email.commoncause.org\"> polling by Tech Equity\u003c/a>. Meanwhile, 59% think “AI will most likely benefit the wealthiest households and corporations, not working people and the middle class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/a> contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Child Safety Groups Demand Mental Health Guardrails, After California Teen’s Suicide Using ChatGPT | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, you can dial or text 988 and be connected to help.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\nWith its quick, often personable responses, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/chatgpt\">ChatGPT\u003c/a> can feel to some children more like an available friend than a language model engineered to guess its next word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These blurred lines allow kids to go down “roads they should never go,” warn child safety advocates and tech policy groups, who have called for companies that design chatbots and artificial intelligence companions to take more responsibility for their program’s influence on youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, tech giant \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/building-more-helpful-chatgpt-experiences-for-everyone/\">OpenAI\u003c/a> announced new safety measures for kids. The post didn’t mention 16-year-old Adam Raine, who, according to his parents, killed himself after discussing both his loneliness and plans to harm himself with ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to a lawsuit filed in San Francisco on Aug. 26, Maria and Matt Raine allege that ChatGPT-4o cultivated a psychological dependence in their son by continually encouraging and validating “whatever [he] expressed, including his most harmful and self-destructive thoughts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is an area that calls out for thoughtful common-sense regulation and guardrails. And quite frankly, that the leaders of all the major AI companies need to address,” said Jim Steyer, founder and CEO of Common Sense Media, which advocates safe media use for children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With more than \u003ca href=\"https://mashable.com/article/openai-how-many-people-use-chatgpt\">500 million\u003c/a> weekly ChatGPT users and more than 2.5 billion prompts per day, users are increasingly turning to the large language model for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674/from-god-to-grief-people-are-asking-ai-the-big-questions-once-reserved-for-clergy\">emotional support.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both digital assistants like ChatGPT, as well as AI companions like Character.Ai and Replika, told researchers posing as 13-year-olds about drinking and drug use, instructed them on how to conceal eating disorders and even composed a suicide letter to their parents if asked, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">research from Stanford University\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Steyer said OpenAI has partnered with Common Sense Media and has taken the issue more seriously than Meta AI or X’s Grok. But he still recommended that young people under 18 — “AI natives” — be restricted from using chatbots for companionship or therapy, suggesting that enhanced controls may not go far enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t just think that parental controls are a be-all end-all solution. They’re hard to use, very easy to bypass for young people, and they put the burden on parents when, honestly, it should be on the tech companies to prevent these kinds of tragic situations,” Steyer said. “It’s more like a bandaid when what we need is a long-term cure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a blog post on Tuesday, the company shared plans to make the chatbot safer for young people to use in recognition of the fact that “people turn to it in the most difficult of moments.” The changes are set to roll out within the next month, OpenAI said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not immediately respond to a request for comment. But the planned updates promise to link parents’ and teens’ accounts, reroute sensitive conversations with youth and alert parents “when the system detects their teen is in a moment of acute distress.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a user expresses suicidal ideation, ChatGPT is trained to direct people to seek professional help, OpenAI stated in a\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/helping-people-when-they-need-it-most/\"> post\u003c/a> last week. ChatGPT refers people to 988, the suicide and crisis hotline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program does not escalate reports of self-harm to law enforcement, “given the uniquely private nature of ChatGPT interactions.” Licensed psychotherapists aren’t universally mandated to report self-harm either, but they must intervene if the client is at immediate risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media is supporting legislation in California that would establish limits protecting children from AI and social media abuse. AB 56 would implement \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12017249/california-bill-would-put-tobacco-like-warnings-social-media-apps\">social media warning labels \u003c/a>that clearly state the risks to children, not unlike the labels pasted on tobacco products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12054564\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12054564 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Samuel Altman, CEO of OpenAI, testifies before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law May 16, 2023 in Washington, DC. \u003ccite>(Win McNamee/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The bill was proposed by Attorney General Rob Bonta and Orinda Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, and is headed to Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk for signing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A second bill, AB1064, would ban AI chatbots from manipulating children into forming emotional attachments or harvesting their personal and biometric data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State Sen. Josh Becker (D-Menlo Park) also introduced an AI bill to protect vulnerable users from chatbots’ harmful effects: \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB243&firstNav=tracking\">SB 243\u003c/a> would require companion chatbots to frequently remind users that it isn’t a person, in order to reduce the risk of emotional manipulation or \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">unhealthy attachment\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether Newsom will support the bills, along with a flurry of other proposed AI-safety laws in Sacramento, remains to be seen. The governor told reporters in early August that he is trying to establish a middle ground that provides public safety guardrails without suppressing business: “We’ve led in AI innovation, and we’ve led in AI regulation, but we’re trying to find a balance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Newsom eyes higher office, and the California governor’s race heats up, there’s been a surge in AI lobbying and political action committees from the industry, with a \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/politics/silicon-valley-launches-pro-ai-pacs-to-defend-industry-in-midterm-elections-287905b3?gaa_at=eafs&gaa_n=ASWzDAjaxxFIzEaiCnLuxtt5FYul1NMFgXzDPGeVaH0VKZedvoSLexjk_j2Gr_Q0ZKQ%3D&gaa_ts=68b063e0&gaa_sig=V93Si4VVkqKsN1H-aEXHbbUoyVrGdS9GECVqYESgBE7WTq_dVBNLHw5VIyH41lRNW0pQQRB3N7d0mV9v_EaR4Q%3D%3D\">report \u003c/a>last week from the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> that Silicon Valley plans to pour $100 million into a network of organizations opposing AI regulation ahead of next year’s midterm elections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it may take more to convince Californians: seven in 10 state residents favor “strong laws to make AI fair” and believe voluntary rules “simply don’t go far enough,” according to recent\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o-vjCADmygFVBPLwtGfgtGPCKp?domain=email.commoncause.org\"> polling by Tech Equity\u003c/a>. Meanwhile, 59% think “AI will most likely benefit the wealthiest households and corporations, not working people and the middle class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/a> contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "we-have-to-and-are-proud-to-big-tech-embraces-the-u-s-military",
"title": "‘We Have To, and Are Proud To’: Silicon Valley Embraces the U.S. Military",
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"headTitle": "‘We Have To, and Are Proud To’: Silicon Valley Embraces the U.S. Military | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>A decade ago, most major tech companies swore off working with the U.S. military. Google, Meta and OpenAI even once had policies banning the use of AI in weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But times have changed, and now Silicon Valley is fully embracing contracts and collaborations with the military. Sheera Frenkel, tech reporter with the New York Times, explains how and why this shift occurred.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/04/technology/google-meta-openai-military-war.html\">The Militarization of Silicon Valley\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5559995627&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Jessica Kariisa, and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ambi \u003c/strong>[00:00:05] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Army Jacket Ceremony and the Commissioning Ceremony for Detachment 201.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:13] In June of this year, four current and former executives from Meta, OpenAI, and Palantir took center stage at a ceremony at the Joint Base Meyer Henderson Hall in Arlington, Virginia. Wearing combat gear and boots, the executives were there for their swearing-in ceremony as Lieutenant Colonels in Detachment 201. A new unit to advise the Army on new technology for use in combat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ambi \u003c/strong>[00:00:45] In an era defined by information warfare, automation, and digital disruption, the army needs skilled technologists in its ranks now more than ever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:58] Big tech has embraced the U.S. Military. It’s a dramatic shift from just a decade ago when most of Silicon Valley was firmly against helping the government wage war. These days, tech executives are singing a different tune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] You’re seeing a lot of posting about how great America is and how proud they are to be Americans doing business in America. That’s a shift and it’s really noticeable among the top executives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:30] Today, Sheera Frenkel from The New York Times talks with The Bay’s host, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, about how Silicon Valley changed its mind on working with the military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:51] Sheera, I guess how might you describe how tight Silicon Valley and the U.S. Government and U. S. Military in particular are these days?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:02:01] We are in a moment of exceptional closeness between the U.S. government and Silicon Valley, and that is really unusual. Silicon Valley had its origins with funding from the U.S. Government. But until now, there has not been this kind of widespread across the board move of Silicon Valley, you know, big companies, executives working closely with the U S military and having the kind of technology that’s actually useful for them. This is a region that saw itself as liberal, progressive, independent, connecting the world. That was a big motto. This idea that it was really international and it was about the good of all humankind, and not something that was specifically wedded to kind of an American patriotism. There’ve been figures, there’ve been characters, there’s been companies that have been public about their want and their need to work with the U.S. Government, but as much as a decade ago, there was widespread protests across Silicon Valley by the employee base at the idea of working closely with the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:12] Yeah, don’t be evil, right, as Google used to say. And I’m thinking, you mentioned the protests, I’m thinking back to 2018 and Google when there were these mass protests by employees there around Google’s involvement in a Pentagon program, right? Can you just remind me of that era of Google, of this like don’t-be-evil sort of motto?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:03:38] That was an era where people came to work at Google, they would graduate from the top universities in the United States. And as people in their early 20s, they saw it as this just really sort of do good, do positive things for the world kind of company. And executives fed into it, this idea of it’s bottom-up kind of culture and we listen to every employee and if you guys protest, we want to hear about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip \u003c/strong>[00:04:03] A letter to Google CEO Sundar Pichai is signed by more than 3,000 Google workers. Here’s what it says, quote, we believe Google should not be in the business of war, therefore we ask that Project Maven be canceled and that Google draft publicize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:04:18] And so when Google employees came out en masse and said they did not want executives to pursue a contract with the U.S. Government with the Pentagon, executives listened and they backed down. And you saw employees at smaller companies across Silicon Valley taking note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:31] And I remember the protests not just being effective in stopping the collaboration with this program but it literally became policy at Google to not pursue contracts with the US Military right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:04:50] Three of the the biggest companies, Meta, OpenAI, and Google, all changed their terms of service so that they would not work with the U.S. Government and that specifically their AI technology wouldn’t be used to help build defense systems. It was literally, we’re going to create policy so that our systems can’t be used for defense or for military purposes. That’s how strongly these executives doubled down on what their employees were asking for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:16] Around this time, Sheera, is it fair to say that everyone in tech was pretty much against military contracts?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:05:24] I wouldn’t say everyone because you had outliers. You had companies like Palantir, who was very outspoken about their work with the US government. They, in fact, sued the army to get a contract because they were so keen on being a tech company that was very out, very public, very aggressive about wanting to be a tech companies that worked with the U.S. Military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Karp \u003c/strong>[00:05:47] And while there, you had the idea for Palantir? Yeah, well, you know, post 9-11, I think the idea, again, it was Silicon Valley ought to be involved in fighting terrorism and protecting our civil liberties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:05:59] Alex Karp, the CEO of Palantir, talks about the importance of working with the government all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Karp \u003c/strong>[00:06:05] We are kind of the greatest democracy in the world, and we tend to win wars where the people believe in what they’re doing. Where the people think that there’s a trade-off between civil liberties and fighting cyber terrorists, it’s going to be very hard to win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:06:17] I just remember how clear it was that they were outliers at that time to what the rest of kind of the Silicon Valley companies were feeling and doing and saying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:31] And for folks who maybe aren’t as familiar with Palantir, what do they do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:06:35] Palantire is a funny company in that they had a certain mysterious aura around them for a long time, and I think they encouraged that by not saying much about what they did. They build systems. They build data systems that can analyze data, that can process it, that can draw conclusions. For instance, they work across the U.S. Federal government, and they’ll come into a place and say, right, here is all the data you sit on. We are not just going to organize it for you, we’re going to make it easy for you visualize it, to analyze it, our AI will draw conclusions. So for a long time, they were used by police departments, for instance, or they were used by different intelligence services to help look at their own data and sort of be able to understand it, even if you were not necessarily a technically minded person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:23] I guess we’re talking now because, as you’re just talking about, Palantir was sort of this outlier among tech companies, really among one of the only ones really working closely with the U.S. Military, but increasingly they’re someone that other tech companies are becoming more and more jealous of these days, it seems like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:07:44] Yeah, it’s really interesting. It’s come full circle. All these tech companies that, you know, stepped away from the US government are now looking at Palantir’s incredibly lucrative contracts across the US Government. Each one of these contracts can be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And once you are working with the US government, they’re pretty faithful as clients. So you’re looking at these contracts that are going to give you amazing revenue year after year. And they want to work with American companies. They seek out American companies. And so I’ve heard some pretty senior executives at Meta and at Google say quite plainly, like, we’re jealous. We wish we were in there sooner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] What exactly has changed here? Like, how did a company like Google go from don’t be evil to now attempting, it looks like, to pursue contracts with the US military? Like, what is this change?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:08:39] I think an executive at Google would say, well, we’ve rethought what it looks like to be evil. A couple things have happened in the last five years or so that have shifted their view. I think primarily the war in Ukraine, seeing the way that Russia and Ukraine have been fighting that war has really mobilized a lot of American executives into thinking that the US Army is not ready to fight the kind of wars that get fought now. Tanks and fighter jets and all that are always going to be part of the U.S. Military. But the way that drone warfare has shifted things, the way the AI systems have shifted both the way militaries collect intelligence and choose targets and select how to act, all of that is not possible without the kind of technical companies and expertise you have in Silicon Valley. And so there’s this sense of like, oh, well, if America goes to war and we’re they’re helping, we may not win. We also have seen a really radically shifting political climate in Silicon Valley. More and more executives have openly expressed support of Donald Trump and his administration. You hear a lot of people out here being like, well, I may not agree with everything that Trump does, but he’s good for business and he’s good for this. And you hear that kind of thing more and more. And so you have a certain willingness of executives to kind of come out and say, I want to work with Trump. I think it’s positive for me and my company to work with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] I also have to imagine that money plays a big role here. You mentioned how many of these military contracts have a pretty big price tag on them. I mean, what role do you think that plays? And I know the president too has pledged to spend a lot more on the military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:10:45] Trump wants to put into place budgets that are going to see a lot of money flowing to the kind of new technology that Silicon Valley can produce. And so if you’re an executive out here, and not to name names, but you’ve decided to rename your company Meta because you think the Metaverse is the future. And then people are kind of like, well, I don’t know if I want to live in the Metaverse. I’m not sure that I want AR and VR goggles. And then the US military comes around and they’re like, Well, we’ll buy half a billion dollars worth of VR goggles because we want to train our soldiers on how to fight in war by putting them through battle scenarios. And suddenly, suddenly there’s a reason to name your company Meta. Suddenly there’s an actual client that wants to buy all that. And so it makes a lot of business sense for these companies to be in this way, and finding military applications for the technology they’ve been working on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:37] Yeah, you just mentioned Meta and these AR VR goggles. I mean, what are some examples, I guess, of this shift that is happening in Silicon Valley? And I guess what specifically to our tech executives saying?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:11:53] You hear a lot of pride among tech executives that they’re working this closely with the U.S. Government, I like to look at their Instagram or their threads or their X pages because you can tell a lot by what they post. And if you look at them over the last, I’d say, year or so, you’re seeing a lot of like American flags flying in the background of posts. You’re seeing lot of posting about how great America is and how proud they are to be Americans doing business in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman \u003c/strong>[00:12:22] Of course, we have to and are proud to and really want to engage in national security areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:12:29] Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, has started talking about the importance of working with the U.S. Government just in the last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman \u003c/strong>[00:12:36] Part of AI to benefit all of humanity very clearly involves supporting the US and our allies to uphold democratic values around the world and to keep us safe. And this is like an integral part of our mission. This is not some side quest that maybe we think about at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:12:55] That’s a shift, and it’s really noticeable among the top executives. That’s something you’re really seeing at the top, and I think there is a gulf here between what executives are saying and posting and feeling about all this, and what the workforce is feeling about the direction that their companies are taking. You’ve also seen a lot of contracts signed. You’ve seen companies like OpenAI partnering with Andrel to use their AI technology to create weapons of the future. The question now isn’t whether the US is going to have autonomous weapons. It’s when will the US have autonomous weapons, and how quickly will companies like Google, or OpenAI, or Microsoft be able to use and pivot their AI technology to create these weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:46] I mean, this is making me think about Google back in 2018, as we were talking about earlier, and the role that the employees at these companies played in pushing back against this working with the US military. Are we seeing that same kind of pushback by tech employees in Silicon Valley now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:14:08] We are not seeing the kind of loud public pushback that we saw a little less than a decade ago. I spoke to quite a few engineers and employees at tech companies that are working with the U.S. Government who are worried. They’re sitting there and going, well, I joined this company because I believed in the ethos of connecting the world or do no evil. And now, I don’t know, I might be building an AI system that helps choose bombing targets faster for some future war, in which were you know, launching aerial strikes. I just think there’s this interesting moment where a lot of these people are asking themselves, do I feel good about the work I’m doing? But they’re doing it quietly, to be clear, because the last few years have seen a lot of layoffs across the big companies. And a lot of these people are worried for their jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:57] And we’ve seen that over the issue of Israel and Palestine, for example, at some of these tech companies, right? That there is real pushback happening now from the top.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:15:08] Very much so. And a couple of the employees I spoke to looked specifically at Gaza as an example of a very AI driven war. I’ve written about this a lot about the systems that Israel built to be able to choose more targets to strike, to be to analyze intelligence quickly, to, you know, the facial recognition software that they’re deploying to use across Gaza. All of this are the kinds of systems that America is thinking about building. And you’re an employee, you’re looking at and you’re saying, is that the future of war?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:15:40] I mean, Sheera, there’s obviously this moral opposition here. But I mean are there any other reasons why this collaboration between Silicon Valley and the US military is a maybe concerning trend? I mean I’m thinking about this technology and its use for surveillance in the US potentially even. I mean what are the other concerns around this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:16:08] I think the concerns are that you can’t put the genie back in the bottle. Technology can introduce different levels of surveillance that the US government can then choose to use as it wants to, right? And so there’s questions of how much more of a surveillance state does the US become. There are questions of, again, autonomous weapons. And every soldier I’ve met has talked about how the introduction of autonomous weapons removes one layer of humanity in war and that when it is robots firing at robots, it’s a very different war. And so there are people out there that are asking these questions of, do we want all these autonomous systems? What does that mean? Are we just making killing easier in the next conflict? And so, yes, anytime a technology is introduced, I think there’s a rush to kind of embrace that new technology. And then often a little like a beat later, like some would say a moment too late, there’s the question of, is this good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:17:14] Well, Sheera, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A decade ago, most major tech companies swore off working with the U.S. military. Google, Meta and OpenAI even once had policies banning the use of AI in weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But times have changed, and now Silicon Valley is fully embracing contracts and collaborations with the military. Sheera Frenkel, tech reporter with the New York Times, explains how and why this shift occurred.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/04/technology/google-meta-openai-military-war.html\">The Militarization of Silicon Valley\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5559995627&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Jessica Kariisa, and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ambi \u003c/strong>[00:00:05] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Army Jacket Ceremony and the Commissioning Ceremony for Detachment 201.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:13] In June of this year, four current and former executives from Meta, OpenAI, and Palantir took center stage at a ceremony at the Joint Base Meyer Henderson Hall in Arlington, Virginia. Wearing combat gear and boots, the executives were there for their swearing-in ceremony as Lieutenant Colonels in Detachment 201. A new unit to advise the Army on new technology for use in combat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ambi \u003c/strong>[00:00:45] In an era defined by information warfare, automation, and digital disruption, the army needs skilled technologists in its ranks now more than ever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:58] Big tech has embraced the U.S. Military. It’s a dramatic shift from just a decade ago when most of Silicon Valley was firmly against helping the government wage war. These days, tech executives are singing a different tune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] You’re seeing a lot of posting about how great America is and how proud they are to be Americans doing business in America. That’s a shift and it’s really noticeable among the top executives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:30] Today, Sheera Frenkel from The New York Times talks with The Bay’s host, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, about how Silicon Valley changed its mind on working with the military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:51] Sheera, I guess how might you describe how tight Silicon Valley and the U.S. Government and U. S. Military in particular are these days?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:02:01] We are in a moment of exceptional closeness between the U.S. government and Silicon Valley, and that is really unusual. Silicon Valley had its origins with funding from the U.S. Government. But until now, there has not been this kind of widespread across the board move of Silicon Valley, you know, big companies, executives working closely with the U S military and having the kind of technology that’s actually useful for them. This is a region that saw itself as liberal, progressive, independent, connecting the world. That was a big motto. This idea that it was really international and it was about the good of all humankind, and not something that was specifically wedded to kind of an American patriotism. There’ve been figures, there’ve been characters, there’s been companies that have been public about their want and their need to work with the U.S. Government, but as much as a decade ago, there was widespread protests across Silicon Valley by the employee base at the idea of working closely with the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:12] Yeah, don’t be evil, right, as Google used to say. And I’m thinking, you mentioned the protests, I’m thinking back to 2018 and Google when there were these mass protests by employees there around Google’s involvement in a Pentagon program, right? Can you just remind me of that era of Google, of this like don’t-be-evil sort of motto?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:03:38] That was an era where people came to work at Google, they would graduate from the top universities in the United States. And as people in their early 20s, they saw it as this just really sort of do good, do positive things for the world kind of company. And executives fed into it, this idea of it’s bottom-up kind of culture and we listen to every employee and if you guys protest, we want to hear about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip \u003c/strong>[00:04:03] A letter to Google CEO Sundar Pichai is signed by more than 3,000 Google workers. Here’s what it says, quote, we believe Google should not be in the business of war, therefore we ask that Project Maven be canceled and that Google draft publicize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:04:18] And so when Google employees came out en masse and said they did not want executives to pursue a contract with the U.S. Government with the Pentagon, executives listened and they backed down. And you saw employees at smaller companies across Silicon Valley taking note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:31] And I remember the protests not just being effective in stopping the collaboration with this program but it literally became policy at Google to not pursue contracts with the US Military right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:04:50] Three of the the biggest companies, Meta, OpenAI, and Google, all changed their terms of service so that they would not work with the U.S. Government and that specifically their AI technology wouldn’t be used to help build defense systems. It was literally, we’re going to create policy so that our systems can’t be used for defense or for military purposes. That’s how strongly these executives doubled down on what their employees were asking for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:16] Around this time, Sheera, is it fair to say that everyone in tech was pretty much against military contracts?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:05:24] I wouldn’t say everyone because you had outliers. You had companies like Palantir, who was very outspoken about their work with the US government. They, in fact, sued the army to get a contract because they were so keen on being a tech company that was very out, very public, very aggressive about wanting to be a tech companies that worked with the U.S. Military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Karp \u003c/strong>[00:05:47] And while there, you had the idea for Palantir? Yeah, well, you know, post 9-11, I think the idea, again, it was Silicon Valley ought to be involved in fighting terrorism and protecting our civil liberties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:05:59] Alex Karp, the CEO of Palantir, talks about the importance of working with the government all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Karp \u003c/strong>[00:06:05] We are kind of the greatest democracy in the world, and we tend to win wars where the people believe in what they’re doing. Where the people think that there’s a trade-off between civil liberties and fighting cyber terrorists, it’s going to be very hard to win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:06:17] I just remember how clear it was that they were outliers at that time to what the rest of kind of the Silicon Valley companies were feeling and doing and saying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:31] And for folks who maybe aren’t as familiar with Palantir, what do they do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:06:35] Palantire is a funny company in that they had a certain mysterious aura around them for a long time, and I think they encouraged that by not saying much about what they did. They build systems. They build data systems that can analyze data, that can process it, that can draw conclusions. For instance, they work across the U.S. Federal government, and they’ll come into a place and say, right, here is all the data you sit on. We are not just going to organize it for you, we’re going to make it easy for you visualize it, to analyze it, our AI will draw conclusions. So for a long time, they were used by police departments, for instance, or they were used by different intelligence services to help look at their own data and sort of be able to understand it, even if you were not necessarily a technically minded person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:23] I guess we’re talking now because, as you’re just talking about, Palantir was sort of this outlier among tech companies, really among one of the only ones really working closely with the U.S. Military, but increasingly they’re someone that other tech companies are becoming more and more jealous of these days, it seems like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:07:44] Yeah, it’s really interesting. It’s come full circle. All these tech companies that, you know, stepped away from the US government are now looking at Palantir’s incredibly lucrative contracts across the US Government. Each one of these contracts can be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And once you are working with the US government, they’re pretty faithful as clients. So you’re looking at these contracts that are going to give you amazing revenue year after year. And they want to work with American companies. They seek out American companies. And so I’ve heard some pretty senior executives at Meta and at Google say quite plainly, like, we’re jealous. We wish we were in there sooner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] What exactly has changed here? Like, how did a company like Google go from don’t be evil to now attempting, it looks like, to pursue contracts with the US military? Like, what is this change?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:08:39] I think an executive at Google would say, well, we’ve rethought what it looks like to be evil. A couple things have happened in the last five years or so that have shifted their view. I think primarily the war in Ukraine, seeing the way that Russia and Ukraine have been fighting that war has really mobilized a lot of American executives into thinking that the US Army is not ready to fight the kind of wars that get fought now. Tanks and fighter jets and all that are always going to be part of the U.S. Military. But the way that drone warfare has shifted things, the way the AI systems have shifted both the way militaries collect intelligence and choose targets and select how to act, all of that is not possible without the kind of technical companies and expertise you have in Silicon Valley. And so there’s this sense of like, oh, well, if America goes to war and we’re they’re helping, we may not win. We also have seen a really radically shifting political climate in Silicon Valley. More and more executives have openly expressed support of Donald Trump and his administration. You hear a lot of people out here being like, well, I may not agree with everything that Trump does, but he’s good for business and he’s good for this. And you hear that kind of thing more and more. And so you have a certain willingness of executives to kind of come out and say, I want to work with Trump. I think it’s positive for me and my company to work with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] I also have to imagine that money plays a big role here. You mentioned how many of these military contracts have a pretty big price tag on them. I mean, what role do you think that plays? And I know the president too has pledged to spend a lot more on the military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:10:45] Trump wants to put into place budgets that are going to see a lot of money flowing to the kind of new technology that Silicon Valley can produce. And so if you’re an executive out here, and not to name names, but you’ve decided to rename your company Meta because you think the Metaverse is the future. And then people are kind of like, well, I don’t know if I want to live in the Metaverse. I’m not sure that I want AR and VR goggles. And then the US military comes around and they’re like, Well, we’ll buy half a billion dollars worth of VR goggles because we want to train our soldiers on how to fight in war by putting them through battle scenarios. And suddenly, suddenly there’s a reason to name your company Meta. Suddenly there’s an actual client that wants to buy all that. And so it makes a lot of business sense for these companies to be in this way, and finding military applications for the technology they’ve been working on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:37] Yeah, you just mentioned Meta and these AR VR goggles. I mean, what are some examples, I guess, of this shift that is happening in Silicon Valley? And I guess what specifically to our tech executives saying?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:11:53] You hear a lot of pride among tech executives that they’re working this closely with the U.S. Government, I like to look at their Instagram or their threads or their X pages because you can tell a lot by what they post. And if you look at them over the last, I’d say, year or so, you’re seeing a lot of like American flags flying in the background of posts. You’re seeing lot of posting about how great America is and how proud they are to be Americans doing business in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman \u003c/strong>[00:12:22] Of course, we have to and are proud to and really want to engage in national security areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:12:29] Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, has started talking about the importance of working with the U.S. Government just in the last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman \u003c/strong>[00:12:36] Part of AI to benefit all of humanity very clearly involves supporting the US and our allies to uphold democratic values around the world and to keep us safe. And this is like an integral part of our mission. This is not some side quest that maybe we think about at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:12:55] That’s a shift, and it’s really noticeable among the top executives. That’s something you’re really seeing at the top, and I think there is a gulf here between what executives are saying and posting and feeling about all this, and what the workforce is feeling about the direction that their companies are taking. You’ve also seen a lot of contracts signed. You’ve seen companies like OpenAI partnering with Andrel to use their AI technology to create weapons of the future. The question now isn’t whether the US is going to have autonomous weapons. It’s when will the US have autonomous weapons, and how quickly will companies like Google, or OpenAI, or Microsoft be able to use and pivot their AI technology to create these weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:46] I mean, this is making me think about Google back in 2018, as we were talking about earlier, and the role that the employees at these companies played in pushing back against this working with the US military. Are we seeing that same kind of pushback by tech employees in Silicon Valley now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:14:08] We are not seeing the kind of loud public pushback that we saw a little less than a decade ago. I spoke to quite a few engineers and employees at tech companies that are working with the U.S. Government who are worried. They’re sitting there and going, well, I joined this company because I believed in the ethos of connecting the world or do no evil. And now, I don’t know, I might be building an AI system that helps choose bombing targets faster for some future war, in which were you know, launching aerial strikes. I just think there’s this interesting moment where a lot of these people are asking themselves, do I feel good about the work I’m doing? But they’re doing it quietly, to be clear, because the last few years have seen a lot of layoffs across the big companies. And a lot of these people are worried for their jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:57] And we’ve seen that over the issue of Israel and Palestine, for example, at some of these tech companies, right? That there is real pushback happening now from the top.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:15:08] Very much so. And a couple of the employees I spoke to looked specifically at Gaza as an example of a very AI driven war. I’ve written about this a lot about the systems that Israel built to be able to choose more targets to strike, to be to analyze intelligence quickly, to, you know, the facial recognition software that they’re deploying to use across Gaza. All of this are the kinds of systems that America is thinking about building. And you’re an employee, you’re looking at and you’re saying, is that the future of war?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:15:40] I mean, Sheera, there’s obviously this moral opposition here. But I mean are there any other reasons why this collaboration between Silicon Valley and the US military is a maybe concerning trend? I mean I’m thinking about this technology and its use for surveillance in the US potentially even. I mean what are the other concerns around this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sheera Frenkel \u003c/strong>[00:16:08] I think the concerns are that you can’t put the genie back in the bottle. Technology can introduce different levels of surveillance that the US government can then choose to use as it wants to, right? And so there’s questions of how much more of a surveillance state does the US become. There are questions of, again, autonomous weapons. And every soldier I’ve met has talked about how the introduction of autonomous weapons removes one layer of humanity in war and that when it is robots firing at robots, it’s a very different war. And so there are people out there that are asking these questions of, do we want all these autonomous systems? What does that mean? Are we just making killing easier in the next conflict? And so, yes, anytime a technology is introduced, I think there’s a rush to kind of embrace that new technology. And then often a little like a beat later, like some would say a moment too late, there’s the question of, is this good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>On this edition of The Bay’s monthly news roundup, Ericka is joined by The Bay’s senior editor Alan Montecillo and KQED associate arts and culture editor Nastia Voynovskaya. We talk about the Pickett Fire currently burning in Napa, scheduling and payment changes to public transit across the Bay, and why some local artists have decided to take their music off Spotify.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1460162369&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Links:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fire.ca.gov/incidents/2025/8/21/pickett-fire\">Pickett Fire\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/napa/pickett-fire-napa-cause-woodbridge/\">Did ‘escaped control burn’ cause Napa County’s Pickett Fire? Dispatch records raise questions about blaze’s origin\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052690/bart-fares-2025-credit-card-clipper-tap-and-ride-contactless\">Starting This Week, You Can Tap Onto BART With a Credit Card — Here’s How\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13978141/deerhoof-quits-spotify-daniel-ek-700-million-military-ai-investment\">SF Band Ditches Spotify Over CEO’s $700M Military AI Investment\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2025/news20250811\">Bay Area transit’s latest Big Sync improves transfers, saving riders up to 20 minutes per trip\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:02] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. And welcome to our August news roundup where we talk about some of the other stories that The Bay team and today a special guest have been following this month. I’m joined by senior editor, Alan Montecillo. What’s up, Alan?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:21] Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:22] And our very special guest today is Nastia Vojnovskaya, associate editor of arts and culture for KQED. Hey Nastia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] Hi Ericka!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:30] Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:00:32] Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:35] Before we dig into the stories that we’ve been following, Nastia, we wanted to have you on because it’s been a pretty busy August for you and the Arts Desk. Can you tell us a little bit about all the things you’ve been covering this month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:00:49] It’s music festival season and full swing in the Bay Area. So earlier this month, I had the pleasure of covering Outside Lands. Um, I cover it every year. And this was a particularly good one where had I not been covering, I would have definitely wanted to be there for fun. Super standout performance by Doechii, who was not even a headliner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:13] Wow. I was just going to ask what were your favorite sets?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:01:25] She already had been at the top of my list of artists I’m watching, just based on her super strong album from last year, Alligator Bites Never Heal. And she just really showed everyone what showmanship and what being a performer is all about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:01:52] She can rap with the dexterity of Kendrick Lamar while moving like Megan Thee Stallion with no backing track. And then the whole performance was also formatted with this cheeky classroom lesson theme about hip hop. There were also so many homages to who came before and where she came from while creating this super futuristic vision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:02:16] August was kind of the month of music festivals or concerts in Golden Gate Park, right? There was Denton Company, Outside Lands, Zach Bryan. With Outside Lands how did it compare to previous years? And I mean, how do you know as an attendee and as someone covering it, whether it was like a big success compared to years past?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:02:35] I would say this year they did some very, very savvy booking. So in addition to Doechii, they had Doja Cat and also Tyler, The Creator. Tyler, he had played Outside Lands before, so when they announced it back in April, I was like, okay, I’m excited to see him again. I like him. But shortly before the festival, he released a fantastic new album. And it’s called Don’t Tap the Glass and the whole theme of that album is being present for the music in person and not being on your phone. And you kind of saw that translate in the crowd the way that people were so engaged. There were some really smart choices of well-positioned breakout acts that they booked. There’s this Brooklyn indie band whose name unfortunately we cannot say on the Radio, and it’s spelled F-C-U-K-E-R-S. And they played this smaller side stage earlier in the day. And I was so impressed by just how they packed out that stage with teens and 20-somethings who were just in this very dense crowd jumping up and down. They kind of have this indie sleaze vibe with electronics and live instruments and just like very sassy vocals. It’s very children of brat. And that band actually had a super packed high energy show, The Rickshaw Stop the night before. So I was just very impressed by how the festival had this mix of established and breaking acts that I think are about to be a lot bigger soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:05] I know LaRussell also performed at Outside Lands, and we also did a really amazing event with him this month as well. More on that on the show next month, actually. We did a real cool music showcase with LaRussall and the Good Company team. Really got to see some amazing artists locally, and we’re gonna do an interview with the winner next month. So look out for that, listeners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:04:34] I have a confession to make. I live next to the park. I have lived next to park for several years and I haven’t been to outside lands yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:04:41] But at least you can hear it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:04:43] I can hear it, I can definitely hear it. Some of my neighbors don’t love the fact that they can hear it, but I don’t mind. I should go and I will go. It’s expensive, but from what I hear, it’s worth it. I will get around to it, but I’m always a little embarrassed whenever this comes up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:59] Very clutch parking spot in front of his house, if you’re an outside lens attendee. Not that I’m offering it to our listeners. Well we’re gonna take a quick break and when we come back we’re going to dig into all the stories that we have been following this month. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:27] Let’s go ahead and dive into some of the other stories that we have been following this month. Alan, I wanna start with you and you’ve been following the Pickett Fire in Napa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:05:38] Yes, after a cold summer, a robust marine layer, Karl the Fog, out in full force, we are essentially in peak fire season from now until winter, basically, when it starts raining. And over the last week, we’ve had what has been the largest fire in the Bay Area so far, which is the Pickett fire. As of this taping, so Thursday morning, it has burned about 6,800 acres and is about 33% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:07] Yeah, and obviously whenever it comes to fire in the Bay Area, I think one of the main ways folks experience it is air quality, and I’ve been really watching that very closely. But can you tell us a little bit about where the fire is burning exactly? I know it’s pretty close to some big wineries in Napa, right, who are just about to approach harvest season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:06:33] Yeah. So the fire broke out on the 21st of August along Pickett road in Napa County, just outside the town of Calistoga near several vineyards. So this fire is firmly, you know, in wine country, you know, In terms of smoke, the air quality management district did lift that advisory on Tuesday. So hopefully it’s not too bad anymore, but there’s still many areas where there are evacuation orders or evacuation warnings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:07:00] So has it burned down any residential areas?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:07:03] So far, it doesn’t seem like that’s happened. Not all the damage has been assessed yet. It seems like the main damage that’s been done, apart from smoke that can be hazardous to people’s health, is to crops. As Ericka mentioned, it is harvest season for these wineries. One early estimate from the county ag commissioner says approximately 1,500 acres of crops have been affected either by fire, by heat, or by smoke. Totaling and estimated, and again this is preliminary, about $65 million in damage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] Oh, wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] And what that means in a practical sense is, are wine grapes going to get ruined by the fire? This happened in 2020. And so the question just is, could that happen again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:07:50] Do you know how the wine industry has been adapting to that, if at all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] Winemakers say, you know, over the last decade or so, the industry is trying to push for more research to figure out how to reduce the taste of smoke and minimize the effects of wildfire because you know it’s hard to tell immediately if the smoke has ruined your grapes. You won’t really know until you taste it. And there actually isn’t a ton of research yet on how to at least mitigate that. So maybe you do have smoke in your area because fire is a reality in California, but maybe there’s ways to minimize the taste and save the crops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:08:23] And I know it usually takes a while to figure out how a fire actually started, but do we know anything about how this fire in Napa began?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:08:33] So that is still under investigation. We don’t know for sure. But there have been some questions and details trickling out, and reporters asking whether this fire started as the result of a “escaped control burn”, basically a fire that’s intended to reduce vegetation on a property. The Press Democrat noted that those words, escape control, burn, appeared on a Cal Fire public safety dispatch around the same time the fire was reported. For what it’s worth, the winery in question said through a spokesperson, you know, we’re working with fire investigators. This is premature. So nothing has been confirmed officially yet, but there are some worries that this could have been how the fire started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] Well, Alan, thank you so much for sharing that story with us. We’re going to be following that one in the weeks ahead, I’m sure. Moving on to the story that I have been following this month, Nastia, Alan, you’re both public transit writers in the Bay Area, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:09:39] Yes, I took BART here this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:09:42] I’m a regular N rider.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] Nice and of course I’m a regular ferry rider and this might be of interest to all of us in this room. Some big changes have been happening to public transit in the Bay Area that is really all about making transit easier to ride. Not sure if you all have started using your debit or credit cards to ride BART but that is now a thing that you can do. And there’s also something called the Big Sync that is happening. Basically, all these transit systems in the Bay Area coordinating to make transfers a lot easier if you’re using one or more transit system. It’s about time. Right. I remember going to New York a couple of years ago and being able to ride the subway by just tapping my credit card. And as a tourist. I was amazed. I was mind blown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:10:43] Yeah, when they got rid of paper tickets and introduced clipper cards, I honestly always found it really problematic that if you lose your clipper card, you have to spend three dollars or something to get a new plastic card. And if you’re a low-income rider, you know that’s money you could be using for a meal. So I’m glad that they’re changing the way it’s done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, and it also brings BART closer to transit systems that already have this. You mentioned this already. New York has it. Chicago has it, many places overseas have it already. Sadly, for those of us who travel among multiple transit agencies, so let’s say you’re going BART to Muni like you do, it hasn’t come to Muni yet, right? You’ll still tap your credit card for BART and then use something else for Muni.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:25] Yeah, fumble to find your other plastic card to ride Muni. Yes, that is correct. This open payment system, as it’s called, of using a debit card or a credit card has not rolled out for Muni yet, but that kind of is the goal. Bay Area Transit officials say that they do want to use this eventually for all regional operators, Muni, Caltrain, AC Transit. So TBD for you, Alan. But I will say there is still something for Muni writers in the month of August, which is this big sink that I’m talking about. Have any of you heard of that? No, tell us more. So if you’re using more than one transit system, so you’re going from BART to Muni, all these agencies have tried to overhaul their schedules in order to make transfers a lot easier and a lot faster. So the focus is really for transfer hubs. In the Bay Area, so Dublin Pleasanton, BART, Daly City BART, Palo Alto Caltrain, and Concord BART Station. In all, these agencies adjusted 18 bus routes at these four hubs to improve connection times with each other. No more sprinting from Caltrain to BART for example. These agencies are saying that these changes account for a 33% increase in weekday ideal transfers. So basically you get five to 10 minutes in between one transit system to another to calmly start your morning and walk to your next transfer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:13:08] That’s gonna make a big difference for a lot of people, because I talk to so many people that want to ride public transit more, but oftentimes it just takes so much longer than driving or getting a rideshare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:19] Right, exactly. You know, these agencies, these transportation agencies that have been really struggling since the pandemic, they got a lot of work to do to get people back on busses and trains, right? And this is really part of it. In terms of the why, this is part of an ongoing implementation of what’s known as the Bay Area Transformation Action Plan from 2021, which is all about improving public transit, making it more user-friendly. And creating a more connected system among all these different transit agencies around the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:13:54] Love to see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:13:55] See you on the N, or the 22…maybe I shouldn’t give out —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:58] Yeah you’re right. We’re just getting closer and closer to figuring out where Alan Montecillo lives in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:15] Well, that is the story that I have been following. Nastia, we’re gonna wrap this one up with you. What story have you been following this month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:14:24] I’ve been following the story of cultural boycotts. So in late July, a bunch of artists announced that they’re taking their music off Spotify because the CEO, Daniel Ek actually just became the chairman of an AI weapons company called Helsing. In light of Israel’s war in Gaza, a lot of artists have been thinking in past couple of years, how… Cultural institutions and companies that serve the culture sector can be complicit in war profiteering. Gabe Moline from KQED Arts wrote a great piece about how Dear Hoof, which is an indie band that formed in San Francisco and are pretty big, announced taking their music off Spotify. And another big voice in that has been Kadia Bonet, who’s this great singer-songwriter, also from the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:15:19] How much of a financial hit would artists take for deciding to pull their music off something like Spotify, which obviously is huge, you know, so many people use it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:15:28] Well, just based off streams, honestly, negligible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:15:32] Because they don’t get paid that much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:15:32] They do not. They do not get paid much at all. I’ve actually been covering artists’ fight for better pay on streaming services for a few years now. And Spotify doesn’t release its exact figures of how much it pays, but the general estimate going around in the industry is that they get a third of a cent per stream. So basically to make the equivalent of earning $15 an hour at a full time job, an artist would have to get over 650,000 Spotify streams per month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:16:06] Oh my gosh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya\u003c/strong> [00:16:06] So you have to be very popular to even see any amount of money. Most of the money in the music industry is in touring, but of course, Spotify does have a lot of clout. There’s a lot clout attached to being featured in a prominent playlist and having your music served up. To listeners, but despite that, there are a lot of artists that have been saying the way that Spotify is set up is rigged against the small indie artists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:16:32] This is making me think about the story of the Bay Area DJs who protested boiler room for coming to San Francisco because of the company’s investments in the defense industry in Israel. Sort of the same kind of deal, and I feel like Bay Area artists really like putting their foot down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:16:53] Yeah, very similar. My good friend Olivia Cruz Mayeda covered that story for SF Chronicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:16:59] Shout out Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:17:00] Yeah, shout out Olivia! Boiler Room, for those that don’t know, it’s this huge online platform for DJs and they basically go to all these really cool music scenes from around the world and produce these really high quality videos of DJs killing it at parties that really puts you in the scene. So in previous years, being in BoilerRoom for a DJ was a stamp of approval. So it was a really big deal that all these smaller electronic music collectives that I’m sure would want the clout that comes with Boiler Room put their foot down and they pretty much organized an anti-Boiler Room music festival as a sign of protest because Boiler Rooms parent company, KKR, has weapons investments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:17:44] Has Spotify said anything about this? Are they noticing that there are some artists who are upset, whether it’s about their CEO specifically or payment in general?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:17:54] So Spotify has not issued a public statement about its CEO becoming chairman of the AI weapons company, but it does have a lot of information on its website kind of arguing that it does give artists all these opportunities and that artists wouldn’t be making a certain amount of money if it wasn’t for Spotify. So they do have a whole section of their website that’s all about payment structure that people can go look at.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:18:20] From the consumer side, let’s say I really like one of these bands and I use Spotify and they’ve taken their music off, how should I listen to and support these artists?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:18:30] A lot of people recommend Bandcamp, not every artist has their music on there, but you can buy it directly and a big percentage goes to the artists. I know Apple Music introduced a new feature that easily allows you to transfer your Spotify playlists to Apple Music. People are talking about title. There are other streaming alternatives, but I will say I don’t think any of these artists would say that any of the services are perfect and all have their drawbacks. But I think if people want to support artists, especially the independent artists and their community, the best way is to buy tickets and show up to live shows and honestly buy merch, because merch is really the way that most artists make money these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:19:16] Well, Nastia Voynovskaya, Associate Editor of Arts and Culture, thank you so much for bringing that story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:19:22] Thank you, Ericka and Alan for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:19:26] And Alan Montecillo, Senior Editor of The Bay, thank you as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:19:30] My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>On this edition of The Bay’s monthly news roundup, Ericka is joined by The Bay’s senior editor Alan Montecillo and KQED associate arts and culture editor Nastia Voynovskaya. We talk about the Pickett Fire currently burning in Napa, scheduling and payment changes to public transit across the Bay, and why some local artists have decided to take their music off Spotify.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1460162369&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Links:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fire.ca.gov/incidents/2025/8/21/pickett-fire\">Pickett Fire\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/napa/pickett-fire-napa-cause-woodbridge/\">Did ‘escaped control burn’ cause Napa County’s Pickett Fire? Dispatch records raise questions about blaze’s origin\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052690/bart-fares-2025-credit-card-clipper-tap-and-ride-contactless\">Starting This Week, You Can Tap Onto BART With a Credit Card — Here’s How\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13978141/deerhoof-quits-spotify-daniel-ek-700-million-military-ai-investment\">SF Band Ditches Spotify Over CEO’s $700M Military AI Investment\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2025/news20250811\">Bay Area transit’s latest Big Sync improves transfers, saving riders up to 20 minutes per trip\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:02] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. And welcome to our August news roundup where we talk about some of the other stories that The Bay team and today a special guest have been following this month. I’m joined by senior editor, Alan Montecillo. What’s up, Alan?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:21] Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:22] And our very special guest today is Nastia Vojnovskaya, associate editor of arts and culture for KQED. Hey Nastia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] Hi Ericka!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:30] Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:00:32] Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:35] Before we dig into the stories that we’ve been following, Nastia, we wanted to have you on because it’s been a pretty busy August for you and the Arts Desk. Can you tell us a little bit about all the things you’ve been covering this month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:00:49] It’s music festival season and full swing in the Bay Area. So earlier this month, I had the pleasure of covering Outside Lands. Um, I cover it every year. And this was a particularly good one where had I not been covering, I would have definitely wanted to be there for fun. Super standout performance by Doechii, who was not even a headliner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:13] Wow. I was just going to ask what were your favorite sets?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:01:25] She already had been at the top of my list of artists I’m watching, just based on her super strong album from last year, Alligator Bites Never Heal. And she just really showed everyone what showmanship and what being a performer is all about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:01:52] She can rap with the dexterity of Kendrick Lamar while moving like Megan Thee Stallion with no backing track. And then the whole performance was also formatted with this cheeky classroom lesson theme about hip hop. There were also so many homages to who came before and where she came from while creating this super futuristic vision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:02:16] August was kind of the month of music festivals or concerts in Golden Gate Park, right? There was Denton Company, Outside Lands, Zach Bryan. With Outside Lands how did it compare to previous years? And I mean, how do you know as an attendee and as someone covering it, whether it was like a big success compared to years past?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:02:35] I would say this year they did some very, very savvy booking. So in addition to Doechii, they had Doja Cat and also Tyler, The Creator. Tyler, he had played Outside Lands before, so when they announced it back in April, I was like, okay, I’m excited to see him again. I like him. But shortly before the festival, he released a fantastic new album. And it’s called Don’t Tap the Glass and the whole theme of that album is being present for the music in person and not being on your phone. And you kind of saw that translate in the crowd the way that people were so engaged. There were some really smart choices of well-positioned breakout acts that they booked. There’s this Brooklyn indie band whose name unfortunately we cannot say on the Radio, and it’s spelled F-C-U-K-E-R-S. And they played this smaller side stage earlier in the day. And I was so impressed by just how they packed out that stage with teens and 20-somethings who were just in this very dense crowd jumping up and down. They kind of have this indie sleaze vibe with electronics and live instruments and just like very sassy vocals. It’s very children of brat. And that band actually had a super packed high energy show, The Rickshaw Stop the night before. So I was just very impressed by how the festival had this mix of established and breaking acts that I think are about to be a lot bigger soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:05] I know LaRussell also performed at Outside Lands, and we also did a really amazing event with him this month as well. More on that on the show next month, actually. We did a real cool music showcase with LaRussall and the Good Company team. Really got to see some amazing artists locally, and we’re gonna do an interview with the winner next month. So look out for that, listeners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:04:34] I have a confession to make. I live next to the park. I have lived next to park for several years and I haven’t been to outside lands yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:04:41] But at least you can hear it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:04:43] I can hear it, I can definitely hear it. Some of my neighbors don’t love the fact that they can hear it, but I don’t mind. I should go and I will go. It’s expensive, but from what I hear, it’s worth it. I will get around to it, but I’m always a little embarrassed whenever this comes up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:59] Very clutch parking spot in front of his house, if you’re an outside lens attendee. Not that I’m offering it to our listeners. Well we’re gonna take a quick break and when we come back we’re going to dig into all the stories that we have been following this month. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:27] Let’s go ahead and dive into some of the other stories that we have been following this month. Alan, I wanna start with you and you’ve been following the Pickett Fire in Napa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:05:38] Yes, after a cold summer, a robust marine layer, Karl the Fog, out in full force, we are essentially in peak fire season from now until winter, basically, when it starts raining. And over the last week, we’ve had what has been the largest fire in the Bay Area so far, which is the Pickett fire. As of this taping, so Thursday morning, it has burned about 6,800 acres and is about 33% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:07] Yeah, and obviously whenever it comes to fire in the Bay Area, I think one of the main ways folks experience it is air quality, and I’ve been really watching that very closely. But can you tell us a little bit about where the fire is burning exactly? I know it’s pretty close to some big wineries in Napa, right, who are just about to approach harvest season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:06:33] Yeah. So the fire broke out on the 21st of August along Pickett road in Napa County, just outside the town of Calistoga near several vineyards. So this fire is firmly, you know, in wine country, you know, In terms of smoke, the air quality management district did lift that advisory on Tuesday. So hopefully it’s not too bad anymore, but there’s still many areas where there are evacuation orders or evacuation warnings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:07:00] So has it burned down any residential areas?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:07:03] So far, it doesn’t seem like that’s happened. Not all the damage has been assessed yet. It seems like the main damage that’s been done, apart from smoke that can be hazardous to people’s health, is to crops. As Ericka mentioned, it is harvest season for these wineries. One early estimate from the county ag commissioner says approximately 1,500 acres of crops have been affected either by fire, by heat, or by smoke. Totaling and estimated, and again this is preliminary, about $65 million in damage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] Oh, wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] And what that means in a practical sense is, are wine grapes going to get ruined by the fire? This happened in 2020. And so the question just is, could that happen again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:07:50] Do you know how the wine industry has been adapting to that, if at all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] Winemakers say, you know, over the last decade or so, the industry is trying to push for more research to figure out how to reduce the taste of smoke and minimize the effects of wildfire because you know it’s hard to tell immediately if the smoke has ruined your grapes. You won’t really know until you taste it. And there actually isn’t a ton of research yet on how to at least mitigate that. So maybe you do have smoke in your area because fire is a reality in California, but maybe there’s ways to minimize the taste and save the crops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:08:23] And I know it usually takes a while to figure out how a fire actually started, but do we know anything about how this fire in Napa began?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:08:33] So that is still under investigation. We don’t know for sure. But there have been some questions and details trickling out, and reporters asking whether this fire started as the result of a “escaped control burn”, basically a fire that’s intended to reduce vegetation on a property. The Press Democrat noted that those words, escape control, burn, appeared on a Cal Fire public safety dispatch around the same time the fire was reported. For what it’s worth, the winery in question said through a spokesperson, you know, we’re working with fire investigators. This is premature. So nothing has been confirmed officially yet, but there are some worries that this could have been how the fire started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] Well, Alan, thank you so much for sharing that story with us. We’re going to be following that one in the weeks ahead, I’m sure. Moving on to the story that I have been following this month, Nastia, Alan, you’re both public transit writers in the Bay Area, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:09:39] Yes, I took BART here this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:09:42] I’m a regular N rider.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] Nice and of course I’m a regular ferry rider and this might be of interest to all of us in this room. Some big changes have been happening to public transit in the Bay Area that is really all about making transit easier to ride. Not sure if you all have started using your debit or credit cards to ride BART but that is now a thing that you can do. And there’s also something called the Big Sync that is happening. Basically, all these transit systems in the Bay Area coordinating to make transfers a lot easier if you’re using one or more transit system. It’s about time. Right. I remember going to New York a couple of years ago and being able to ride the subway by just tapping my credit card. And as a tourist. I was amazed. I was mind blown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:10:43] Yeah, when they got rid of paper tickets and introduced clipper cards, I honestly always found it really problematic that if you lose your clipper card, you have to spend three dollars or something to get a new plastic card. And if you’re a low-income rider, you know that’s money you could be using for a meal. So I’m glad that they’re changing the way it’s done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, and it also brings BART closer to transit systems that already have this. You mentioned this already. New York has it. Chicago has it, many places overseas have it already. Sadly, for those of us who travel among multiple transit agencies, so let’s say you’re going BART to Muni like you do, it hasn’t come to Muni yet, right? You’ll still tap your credit card for BART and then use something else for Muni.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:25] Yeah, fumble to find your other plastic card to ride Muni. Yes, that is correct. This open payment system, as it’s called, of using a debit card or a credit card has not rolled out for Muni yet, but that kind of is the goal. Bay Area Transit officials say that they do want to use this eventually for all regional operators, Muni, Caltrain, AC Transit. So TBD for you, Alan. But I will say there is still something for Muni writers in the month of August, which is this big sink that I’m talking about. Have any of you heard of that? No, tell us more. So if you’re using more than one transit system, so you’re going from BART to Muni, all these agencies have tried to overhaul their schedules in order to make transfers a lot easier and a lot faster. So the focus is really for transfer hubs. In the Bay Area, so Dublin Pleasanton, BART, Daly City BART, Palo Alto Caltrain, and Concord BART Station. In all, these agencies adjusted 18 bus routes at these four hubs to improve connection times with each other. No more sprinting from Caltrain to BART for example. These agencies are saying that these changes account for a 33% increase in weekday ideal transfers. So basically you get five to 10 minutes in between one transit system to another to calmly start your morning and walk to your next transfer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:13:08] That’s gonna make a big difference for a lot of people, because I talk to so many people that want to ride public transit more, but oftentimes it just takes so much longer than driving or getting a rideshare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:19] Right, exactly. You know, these agencies, these transportation agencies that have been really struggling since the pandemic, they got a lot of work to do to get people back on busses and trains, right? And this is really part of it. In terms of the why, this is part of an ongoing implementation of what’s known as the Bay Area Transformation Action Plan from 2021, which is all about improving public transit, making it more user-friendly. And creating a more connected system among all these different transit agencies around the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:13:54] Love to see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:13:55] See you on the N, or the 22…maybe I shouldn’t give out —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:58] Yeah you’re right. We’re just getting closer and closer to figuring out where Alan Montecillo lives in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:15] Well, that is the story that I have been following. Nastia, we’re gonna wrap this one up with you. What story have you been following this month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:14:24] I’ve been following the story of cultural boycotts. So in late July, a bunch of artists announced that they’re taking their music off Spotify because the CEO, Daniel Ek actually just became the chairman of an AI weapons company called Helsing. In light of Israel’s war in Gaza, a lot of artists have been thinking in past couple of years, how… Cultural institutions and companies that serve the culture sector can be complicit in war profiteering. Gabe Moline from KQED Arts wrote a great piece about how Dear Hoof, which is an indie band that formed in San Francisco and are pretty big, announced taking their music off Spotify. And another big voice in that has been Kadia Bonet, who’s this great singer-songwriter, also from the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:15:19] How much of a financial hit would artists take for deciding to pull their music off something like Spotify, which obviously is huge, you know, so many people use it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:15:28] Well, just based off streams, honestly, negligible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:15:32] Because they don’t get paid that much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:15:32] They do not. They do not get paid much at all. I’ve actually been covering artists’ fight for better pay on streaming services for a few years now. And Spotify doesn’t release its exact figures of how much it pays, but the general estimate going around in the industry is that they get a third of a cent per stream. So basically to make the equivalent of earning $15 an hour at a full time job, an artist would have to get over 650,000 Spotify streams per month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:16:06] Oh my gosh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya\u003c/strong> [00:16:06] So you have to be very popular to even see any amount of money. Most of the money in the music industry is in touring, but of course, Spotify does have a lot of clout. There’s a lot clout attached to being featured in a prominent playlist and having your music served up. To listeners, but despite that, there are a lot of artists that have been saying the way that Spotify is set up is rigged against the small indie artists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:16:32] This is making me think about the story of the Bay Area DJs who protested boiler room for coming to San Francisco because of the company’s investments in the defense industry in Israel. Sort of the same kind of deal, and I feel like Bay Area artists really like putting their foot down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:16:53] Yeah, very similar. My good friend Olivia Cruz Mayeda covered that story for SF Chronicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:16:59] Shout out Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:17:00] Yeah, shout out Olivia! Boiler Room, for those that don’t know, it’s this huge online platform for DJs and they basically go to all these really cool music scenes from around the world and produce these really high quality videos of DJs killing it at parties that really puts you in the scene. So in previous years, being in BoilerRoom for a DJ was a stamp of approval. So it was a really big deal that all these smaller electronic music collectives that I’m sure would want the clout that comes with Boiler Room put their foot down and they pretty much organized an anti-Boiler Room music festival as a sign of protest because Boiler Rooms parent company, KKR, has weapons investments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:17:44] Has Spotify said anything about this? Are they noticing that there are some artists who are upset, whether it’s about their CEO specifically or payment in general?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:17:54] So Spotify has not issued a public statement about its CEO becoming chairman of the AI weapons company, but it does have a lot of information on its website kind of arguing that it does give artists all these opportunities and that artists wouldn’t be making a certain amount of money if it wasn’t for Spotify. So they do have a whole section of their website that’s all about payment structure that people can go look at.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:18:20] From the consumer side, let’s say I really like one of these bands and I use Spotify and they’ve taken their music off, how should I listen to and support these artists?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:18:30] A lot of people recommend Bandcamp, not every artist has their music on there, but you can buy it directly and a big percentage goes to the artists. I know Apple Music introduced a new feature that easily allows you to transfer your Spotify playlists to Apple Music. People are talking about title. There are other streaming alternatives, but I will say I don’t think any of these artists would say that any of the services are perfect and all have their drawbacks. But I think if people want to support artists, especially the independent artists and their community, the best way is to buy tickets and show up to live shows and honestly buy merch, because merch is really the way that most artists make money these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:19:16] Well, Nastia Voynovskaya, Associate Editor of Arts and Culture, thank you so much for bringing that story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya \u003c/strong>[00:19:22] Thank you, Ericka and Alan for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:19:26] And Alan Montecillo, Senior Editor of The Bay, thank you as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "‘Not Even AI Can Save Me’: Students and Teachers on ChatGPT in the Classroom",
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"headTitle": "‘Not Even AI Can Save Me’: Students and Teachers on ChatGPT in the Classroom | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Artificial intelligence inside California schools feels a lot like building the plane as it’s flying. Students who are familiar with tools like ChatGPT are using it faster than teachers and administrators can regulate it. Jesse Dukes, co-host of the Homework Machine podcast, talked with dozens of students and teachers across the country about their thoughts on AI in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8258569586&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/\">TeachLab Presents: The Homework Machine\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:28] It does feel like AI is sort of everywhere now, including in classrooms. Is that pretty accurate? Is it safe to say that AI is just everywhere?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:01:44] It depends what you mean by AI, right? I mean, if we’re talking about generative AI, which is, you know, chat GPT in this generation of AI, it’s certainly made its way into schools. When you’re talking about what do students use, either in ways that their teachers approve of or in ways their teachers disapprove of, it’s gonna be like chat GPT, I would say like 90% of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:15] Well, I mean, you’re in the thick of it in a sense because you did a bunch of interviews with both teachers and students for this story. And I know you met a student named Emilia. Can you tell me a little bit about Emila? Who is she and where is she from?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:02:32] So I talked to a student named Emilia who asked to stay anonymous. She’s from somewhere in Northern California and she was a senior last school year when I spoke with her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:02:48] My schedule is from 8.30 to 5 being at school and then from 5 to 6 I have soccer. So it’s just like I love being at school. I don’t like being at my house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:03:01] She says that she likes to learn too. And she actually, when I was asking her, do you see students using AI to do their schoolwork or do their homework, she said she did and expressed some disapproval of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:03:17] You’re not learning. You’re just learning how to copy and paste. Why would schools be invented then? Or like, why would we come to school? Or like it just like, it just applied.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:03:30] And she also described herself as somebody who really likes writing as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:34] Okay, so she sounds a little bit like a rule follower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:03:37] Yeah, usually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:39] That is until she it seems hit a wall with one of her classes. What happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:03:49] There was a teacher who I believe was new to the school, an English teacher, so somebody who didn’t know her, and Emilia said that when she was turning in writing assignments, the teacher just didn’t seem to like her writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:04:03] All the essays that we have been doing. She has given me either a C. Or an F.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:04:10] And Emilia found that confusing because, you know, as I mentioned, she thought of herself as a good writer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:04:15] I actually took a college class with a professor in UC Berkeley and I never had these type of like, your writing sucks, uni, so much and so much. I always had A’s in that class and the professor even liked so many of my writings. I was just like, how am I getting A’s, in my college classes, and with you, I’m getting F’s and C’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:04:42] She’s in the class, she’s frustrated, and she keeps getting grades she doesn’t like on writing assignments and one time there’s an in-class extra credit assignment. So it’s sort of low stakes, right? You’re not gonna get a bad grade if you don’t do a good job. And she thinks, I don’t know, I wonder what will happen if I get ChatGPT to do this for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:05:04] Yeah, I mean, I could just write it myself, but I was just so tired, I was like, I’m just AI-ing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:05:15] So she gave it a try. And then apparently her teacher was able to detect that she had used ChatGPT. And so then Emilia got this message, I believe it was in Google Chat, that essentially said, I don’t think this is your work and you’re not gonna get any extra credit. And if you wanna dispute that, you can come talk to me. But Amelia didn’t dispute that because she knew that the teacher was correct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:05:42] That was like my whole jaw dropped and I was like not even AI can save me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:05:48] She had this kind of pit of the stomach moment, as many of us would when you get caught doing something embarrassing or against the rules and maybe something that in Amelia’s case goes against her own values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] Totally, totally. I’m just thinking like how I was as a student, that’s like my worst nightmare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:06:05] Yeah, no, I get a little bit of a shiver just thinking about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] I think I can easily imagine how a student might use ChatGPT for like a social science class or an English class, but how can it be used for maybe like a math or science class?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:06:21] It’s pretty good at math. You can just transcribe the math problem into ChatGPT, but there’s also something called Photomath. Have you seen Photometh? Which is an app that integrates the phone’s camera and you can just hold Photomoth above the math problem, even if it’s hand written and it will solve it for you and output an answer. And it even works with word problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:46] I gotta say, as someone who is not good at math, I might have been tempted by that as a student.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:06:53] It’s very tempting. So Justin, my co-host, tells a story about how he was helping his 14-year-old daughter with her math homework, and they were both stuck. And the daughter just whipped out her phone and put it into photo math, and they used it to figure out how to solve that problem. Now, according to Justin, then they put the phone away and tried to do the rest of the problems without using photo math. And actually, this use case I just described to you, I think this is a classic gray area, if you’re stuck in your homework. Many teachers say you can use resources. Can you use photo math as a resource or ChatGPT as a research to figure out how to solve the math problem, particularly if you then put it away and solve the rest of them using your own brain? It’s a little bit unclear right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:36] I want to talk more, Jesse, about some of the conversations you had with educators. You spoke to dozens of educators about how they’re feeling about AI. And I feel like whenever I hear conversations about AI in classrooms, the main concern is always, as we’ve been talking about, this idea of cheating. But what are some of other concerns that you heard from educators about AI right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:08:03] Cheating is probably the biggest one. One of the major concerns around cheating is, you know, there’s this sort of ethical concern, but there’s also the concern that if the student is using AI to do their homework, they’re bypassing the learning that the teacher is trying to get them engaged in. They’re bypassed the thinking. Other concerns, will what we’re trying to do… To keep students from cheating end up having its own harm? Are we going to punish students unfairly or harshly who are suspected of AI cheating? Is that discipline going to be unfair or inequitable in some ways? There are concerns among teachers that teachers might be replaced by AI. I don’t think that is imminent, but there are a number of pilot programs of AI-powered tutors right now. And then I think there’s a concern, this sort of existential concern about, are we teaching students what they are going to need to be successful in an uncertain future that may very well have more AI in it? It’s an age old question. Are we teaching the right things in schools? And AI has exacerbated that question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:21] And you mentioned earlier this idea of disciplining students and how to discipline students for using AI, which feels tied to what policies schools have around AI and whether those even exist. I mean, are there policies around AI for schools in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:09:41] It’s really school by school, district by district. We did a survey with the RAND Corporation that found that in early 2024, so about a year ago, only about one in four teachers said their schools had an AI policy or had gotten any AI guidance. Both the teachers and the students are saying it can be a little bit confusing what counts as a responsible use of AI by a student and what counts is cheating. If we did that survey again now, we’re now in the fall of 2025, I suspect that more schools do have policies written. More schools have probably had these conversations about how do we want our students to use AI responsibly? What kind of guidance do we wanna give our students? What do we consider cheating? But it’s taken a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:10:37] AI keeps changing and keeps getting better and keeps more and more tempting and more and accessible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:10:46] Sara Falls is a veteran teacher, English teacher, who teaches at Abraham Lincoln High School in San Francisco. She’s been teaching there at least 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:10:57] I trust a lot of my methodology, I trust a lot my processes. It’s not just about writing, it’s about thinking and I’m really good at helping kind of unpack and help students to think critically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:11:11] For her, AI has been kind of horrifying, seeing it come into school, seeing it coming to the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:11:17] I’m starting to worry that the career I’ve built that’s really about deepening student critical thinking in order to create something meaningful is going to just go out the window. That people are going to say, my ability to think critically about this and write about it well does not matter. That, for me, is the biggest issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:39] Yeah, I mean, how did she see her students maybe using AI in the classroom and how did she get her school to address it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:11:47] She really wanted her school to adopt a kind of zero tolerance policy when it came to AI. And around that time, she reached out to the school district for guidance, and she said due to personnel issues and staffing issues, the person at the district level who would usually, whose job it would be to think about these things, that person’s job had been eliminated and not replaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:12:10] I would like to feel like SFUSD leaders recognize that this is a concern, and especially, again, as teachers of writing, what are we going to do about this? Where does it become a really useful tool versus it’s getting in the way of students’ ability to create and draft and revise meaningfully on their own?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:12:32] The district did have some guidance about AI, but it was pretty basic. So she thought we were just going to have to come up with our own guidance for the students. And so she started a process to write a responsible AI policy for her school, uh, roped in other members of the English department. They wrote a draft and they shared it with the rest of the school. And then my understanding is they went through some revision processes and then she presented it to her school’s leadership over the summer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:13:06] The first to do is some deterrence, trying to explain what the concerns are. It’s detrimental to the environment. It uses copyrighted works and is creative theft. If using Grammarly, be an active editor, don’t necessarily accept all the suggestions, their style isn’t always better. Google Translate, use it to look up words, but not, don’t write in one language and then run the entire text through Google Translate. Mostly what I wanted was to feel like We’re all sort of discussing this and deciding that this is a district-wide concern and let’s figure out how we’re going to move forward with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:49] We’ll be right back with more from Jesse Duke’s co-host of the Homework Machine podcast right after this. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:05] So Sara is the sort of AI skeptic, it sounds like, but I know you did talk with some teachers who find it pretty helpful, actually. What did you hear from those teachers about positive uses of AI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:14:22] Well, for one thing, you know, teachers are sort of even handed. So even the most skeptical teacher, you know, because they’re sort of like journalists in this way. You’re like, well, can you think of anything good about AI? They’ll usually come up with something, right? They’re like I used it to sort my students into their field trip groups. So there are these organizational tasks. I’ve had a number of teachers tell me that they use it to write their self-evaluations, which, gosh, there’s a lot to say about that. There are some teachers who describe uses of AI to really support learning in interesting ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Timmons \u003c/strong>[00:15:00] I was reading about OpenAI and ChatGPT. And so I started playing with it. And like everybody else, I was like, well, this is pretty incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:15:10] So one of those enthusiasts was Eric Timmons, who is a film and English teacher at Santa Ana High School. He teaches film. His students are majority Latino, majority low income. And he talks about using AI to help him come up with kind of like teaching ideas and curriculum ideas. And I should say, he’s a veteran teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Timmons \u003c/strong>[00:15:36] The part of our job that is sometimes cumbersome of like putting the curriculum together and all these plans and stuff like that, it makes it really fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:15:43] He was giving his students an article to read about gentrification in Santa Ana. And, you know, this was an article he found. It wasn’t something the school had given him. So there were no discussion questions. There were no bridge activities. So he wanted to come up with some kind of in-class discussion framework. I was like, okay, let me try and apply ChatGPT and come up with a structure for this. So he asked ChatGpT to design some discussion questions He’s somebody who’s taken some classes from different curriculum designers. And he’s a fan of something called Project Zero. And they have a particular bridge activity framework that he likes. So he asked ChatGPT to design some discussion questions in accordance with that Project Zero’s bridge activity. And it sped out some questions for him. He kept the ones he liked, he got rid of the ones he didn’t think were gonna be very effective, and that gave him his in-class discussion activity, you know, in like two minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Timmons \u003c/strong>[00:16:44] As a teacher there’s like sometimes a feeling of like well you know what like I’m not a curriculum designer like should I be going and doing all of this work for free you know um but at the end of the day it’s not going to happen so I have to do it right being able to work with the smartest curriculum designer that’s ever existed and have that at at my disposal is incredible\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:17:07] And I think one thing that, you know, my co-host Justin Reich, who’s a professor of education, would be very quick to point out probably is that there does seem to be a pattern that the teachers who use generative AI effectively often tend to be the veteran teachers who already probably could do the thing they’re asking chat GPT how to do. First of all, they’re able to know what to ask for in very, very specific terms. And they’re also. Able to evaluate what the AI bot gives them and keep the good and dispense with the part of that that’s less useful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:17:49] I’m wondering how myself and just people who are maybe seeing what’s happening in classrooms around the country and California, how we’re sort of supposed to make sense of all of this hype and this push around AI by our state leaders, by AI tech companies, and how we sort of square that with what you’ve heard from students and teachers and the People actually like living it in these classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:18:20] I think we should all be a little bit skeptical of the idea that AI is going to transform and democratize education and do so quickly. And I think that we don’t really know what skills students are going to need in the future, even if there is way more AI in the workplace. And historically, we’ve not been very good at predicting what skills our students are going to need to succeed in a world that is being increasingly redefined and shaped by different technologies. But I think the absolute most important thing that schools need to be doing right now, and I’ve definitely heard this from teachers, is they need to creating space for the kinds of conversations between teachers, between teachers and students, between school leaders about what values they want to center when they are giving their students guidance about how to use AI responsibly. You know, what counts as responsible use of AI? What counts as cheating? There are gonna be people in the schools who disagree about that. And if they can bring students into those conversations, all the better. But too many schools haven’t really convened those conversations. They haven’t given their teachers the chance to discuss AI, responsible use of AI with one another. And what I’m hearing from teachers is that when they’ve had a chance to be exposed to a little bit of information about AI and to talk these things out with their colleagues, with students, with school leaders. At least they feel a lot more comfortable and they feel like they can work towards a framework for how to proceed in this pretty complicated and confusing moment.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Artificial intelligence inside California schools feels a lot like building the plane as it’s flying. Students who are familiar with tools like ChatGPT are using it faster than teachers and administrators can regulate it. Jesse Dukes, co-host of the Homework Machine podcast, talked with dozens of students and teachers across the country about their thoughts on AI in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8258569586&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/\">TeachLab Presents: The Homework Machine\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:28] It does feel like AI is sort of everywhere now, including in classrooms. Is that pretty accurate? Is it safe to say that AI is just everywhere?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:01:44] It depends what you mean by AI, right? I mean, if we’re talking about generative AI, which is, you know, chat GPT in this generation of AI, it’s certainly made its way into schools. When you’re talking about what do students use, either in ways that their teachers approve of or in ways their teachers disapprove of, it’s gonna be like chat GPT, I would say like 90% of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:15] Well, I mean, you’re in the thick of it in a sense because you did a bunch of interviews with both teachers and students for this story. And I know you met a student named Emilia. Can you tell me a little bit about Emila? Who is she and where is she from?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:02:32] So I talked to a student named Emilia who asked to stay anonymous. She’s from somewhere in Northern California and she was a senior last school year when I spoke with her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:02:48] My schedule is from 8.30 to 5 being at school and then from 5 to 6 I have soccer. So it’s just like I love being at school. I don’t like being at my house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:03:01] She says that she likes to learn too. And she actually, when I was asking her, do you see students using AI to do their schoolwork or do their homework, she said she did and expressed some disapproval of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:03:17] You’re not learning. You’re just learning how to copy and paste. Why would schools be invented then? Or like, why would we come to school? Or like it just like, it just applied.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:03:30] And she also described herself as somebody who really likes writing as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:34] Okay, so she sounds a little bit like a rule follower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:03:37] Yeah, usually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:39] That is until she it seems hit a wall with one of her classes. What happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:03:49] There was a teacher who I believe was new to the school, an English teacher, so somebody who didn’t know her, and Emilia said that when she was turning in writing assignments, the teacher just didn’t seem to like her writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:04:03] All the essays that we have been doing. She has given me either a C. Or an F.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:04:10] And Emilia found that confusing because, you know, as I mentioned, she thought of herself as a good writer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:04:15] I actually took a college class with a professor in UC Berkeley and I never had these type of like, your writing sucks, uni, so much and so much. I always had A’s in that class and the professor even liked so many of my writings. I was just like, how am I getting A’s, in my college classes, and with you, I’m getting F’s and C’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:04:42] She’s in the class, she’s frustrated, and she keeps getting grades she doesn’t like on writing assignments and one time there’s an in-class extra credit assignment. So it’s sort of low stakes, right? You’re not gonna get a bad grade if you don’t do a good job. And she thinks, I don’t know, I wonder what will happen if I get ChatGPT to do this for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:05:04] Yeah, I mean, I could just write it myself, but I was just so tired, I was like, I’m just AI-ing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:05:15] So she gave it a try. And then apparently her teacher was able to detect that she had used ChatGPT. And so then Emilia got this message, I believe it was in Google Chat, that essentially said, I don’t think this is your work and you’re not gonna get any extra credit. And if you wanna dispute that, you can come talk to me. But Amelia didn’t dispute that because she knew that the teacher was correct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emilia \u003c/strong>[00:05:42] That was like my whole jaw dropped and I was like not even AI can save me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:05:48] She had this kind of pit of the stomach moment, as many of us would when you get caught doing something embarrassing or against the rules and maybe something that in Amelia’s case goes against her own values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] Totally, totally. I’m just thinking like how I was as a student, that’s like my worst nightmare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:06:05] Yeah, no, I get a little bit of a shiver just thinking about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] I think I can easily imagine how a student might use ChatGPT for like a social science class or an English class, but how can it be used for maybe like a math or science class?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:06:21] It’s pretty good at math. You can just transcribe the math problem into ChatGPT, but there’s also something called Photomath. Have you seen Photometh? Which is an app that integrates the phone’s camera and you can just hold Photomoth above the math problem, even if it’s hand written and it will solve it for you and output an answer. And it even works with word problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:46] I gotta say, as someone who is not good at math, I might have been tempted by that as a student.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:06:53] It’s very tempting. So Justin, my co-host, tells a story about how he was helping his 14-year-old daughter with her math homework, and they were both stuck. And the daughter just whipped out her phone and put it into photo math, and they used it to figure out how to solve that problem. Now, according to Justin, then they put the phone away and tried to do the rest of the problems without using photo math. And actually, this use case I just described to you, I think this is a classic gray area, if you’re stuck in your homework. Many teachers say you can use resources. Can you use photo math as a resource or ChatGPT as a research to figure out how to solve the math problem, particularly if you then put it away and solve the rest of them using your own brain? It’s a little bit unclear right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:36] I want to talk more, Jesse, about some of the conversations you had with educators. You spoke to dozens of educators about how they’re feeling about AI. And I feel like whenever I hear conversations about AI in classrooms, the main concern is always, as we’ve been talking about, this idea of cheating. But what are some of other concerns that you heard from educators about AI right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:08:03] Cheating is probably the biggest one. One of the major concerns around cheating is, you know, there’s this sort of ethical concern, but there’s also the concern that if the student is using AI to do their homework, they’re bypassing the learning that the teacher is trying to get them engaged in. They’re bypassed the thinking. Other concerns, will what we’re trying to do… To keep students from cheating end up having its own harm? Are we going to punish students unfairly or harshly who are suspected of AI cheating? Is that discipline going to be unfair or inequitable in some ways? There are concerns among teachers that teachers might be replaced by AI. I don’t think that is imminent, but there are a number of pilot programs of AI-powered tutors right now. And then I think there’s a concern, this sort of existential concern about, are we teaching students what they are going to need to be successful in an uncertain future that may very well have more AI in it? It’s an age old question. Are we teaching the right things in schools? And AI has exacerbated that question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:21] And you mentioned earlier this idea of disciplining students and how to discipline students for using AI, which feels tied to what policies schools have around AI and whether those even exist. I mean, are there policies around AI for schools in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:09:41] It’s really school by school, district by district. We did a survey with the RAND Corporation that found that in early 2024, so about a year ago, only about one in four teachers said their schools had an AI policy or had gotten any AI guidance. Both the teachers and the students are saying it can be a little bit confusing what counts as a responsible use of AI by a student and what counts is cheating. If we did that survey again now, we’re now in the fall of 2025, I suspect that more schools do have policies written. More schools have probably had these conversations about how do we want our students to use AI responsibly? What kind of guidance do we wanna give our students? What do we consider cheating? But it’s taken a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:10:37] AI keeps changing and keeps getting better and keeps more and more tempting and more and accessible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:10:46] Sara Falls is a veteran teacher, English teacher, who teaches at Abraham Lincoln High School in San Francisco. She’s been teaching there at least 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:10:57] I trust a lot of my methodology, I trust a lot my processes. It’s not just about writing, it’s about thinking and I’m really good at helping kind of unpack and help students to think critically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:11:11] For her, AI has been kind of horrifying, seeing it come into school, seeing it coming to the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:11:17] I’m starting to worry that the career I’ve built that’s really about deepening student critical thinking in order to create something meaningful is going to just go out the window. That people are going to say, my ability to think critically about this and write about it well does not matter. That, for me, is the biggest issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:39] Yeah, I mean, how did she see her students maybe using AI in the classroom and how did she get her school to address it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:11:47] She really wanted her school to adopt a kind of zero tolerance policy when it came to AI. And around that time, she reached out to the school district for guidance, and she said due to personnel issues and staffing issues, the person at the district level who would usually, whose job it would be to think about these things, that person’s job had been eliminated and not replaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:12:10] I would like to feel like SFUSD leaders recognize that this is a concern, and especially, again, as teachers of writing, what are we going to do about this? Where does it become a really useful tool versus it’s getting in the way of students’ ability to create and draft and revise meaningfully on their own?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:12:32] The district did have some guidance about AI, but it was pretty basic. So she thought we were just going to have to come up with our own guidance for the students. And so she started a process to write a responsible AI policy for her school, uh, roped in other members of the English department. They wrote a draft and they shared it with the rest of the school. And then my understanding is they went through some revision processes and then she presented it to her school’s leadership over the summer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara Falls \u003c/strong>[00:13:06] The first to do is some deterrence, trying to explain what the concerns are. It’s detrimental to the environment. It uses copyrighted works and is creative theft. If using Grammarly, be an active editor, don’t necessarily accept all the suggestions, their style isn’t always better. Google Translate, use it to look up words, but not, don’t write in one language and then run the entire text through Google Translate. Mostly what I wanted was to feel like We’re all sort of discussing this and deciding that this is a district-wide concern and let’s figure out how we’re going to move forward with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:49] We’ll be right back with more from Jesse Duke’s co-host of the Homework Machine podcast right after this. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:05] So Sara is the sort of AI skeptic, it sounds like, but I know you did talk with some teachers who find it pretty helpful, actually. What did you hear from those teachers about positive uses of AI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:14:22] Well, for one thing, you know, teachers are sort of even handed. So even the most skeptical teacher, you know, because they’re sort of like journalists in this way. You’re like, well, can you think of anything good about AI? They’ll usually come up with something, right? They’re like I used it to sort my students into their field trip groups. So there are these organizational tasks. I’ve had a number of teachers tell me that they use it to write their self-evaluations, which, gosh, there’s a lot to say about that. There are some teachers who describe uses of AI to really support learning in interesting ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Timmons \u003c/strong>[00:15:00] I was reading about OpenAI and ChatGPT. And so I started playing with it. And like everybody else, I was like, well, this is pretty incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:15:10] So one of those enthusiasts was Eric Timmons, who is a film and English teacher at Santa Ana High School. He teaches film. His students are majority Latino, majority low income. And he talks about using AI to help him come up with kind of like teaching ideas and curriculum ideas. And I should say, he’s a veteran teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Timmons \u003c/strong>[00:15:36] The part of our job that is sometimes cumbersome of like putting the curriculum together and all these plans and stuff like that, it makes it really fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:15:43] He was giving his students an article to read about gentrification in Santa Ana. And, you know, this was an article he found. It wasn’t something the school had given him. So there were no discussion questions. There were no bridge activities. So he wanted to come up with some kind of in-class discussion framework. I was like, okay, let me try and apply ChatGPT and come up with a structure for this. So he asked ChatGpT to design some discussion questions He’s somebody who’s taken some classes from different curriculum designers. And he’s a fan of something called Project Zero. And they have a particular bridge activity framework that he likes. So he asked ChatGPT to design some discussion questions in accordance with that Project Zero’s bridge activity. And it sped out some questions for him. He kept the ones he liked, he got rid of the ones he didn’t think were gonna be very effective, and that gave him his in-class discussion activity, you know, in like two minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Timmons \u003c/strong>[00:16:44] As a teacher there’s like sometimes a feeling of like well you know what like I’m not a curriculum designer like should I be going and doing all of this work for free you know um but at the end of the day it’s not going to happen so I have to do it right being able to work with the smartest curriculum designer that’s ever existed and have that at at my disposal is incredible\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:17:07] And I think one thing that, you know, my co-host Justin Reich, who’s a professor of education, would be very quick to point out probably is that there does seem to be a pattern that the teachers who use generative AI effectively often tend to be the veteran teachers who already probably could do the thing they’re asking chat GPT how to do. First of all, they’re able to know what to ask for in very, very specific terms. And they’re also. Able to evaluate what the AI bot gives them and keep the good and dispense with the part of that that’s less useful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:17:49] I’m wondering how myself and just people who are maybe seeing what’s happening in classrooms around the country and California, how we’re sort of supposed to make sense of all of this hype and this push around AI by our state leaders, by AI tech companies, and how we sort of square that with what you’ve heard from students and teachers and the People actually like living it in these classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes \u003c/strong>[00:18:20] I think we should all be a little bit skeptical of the idea that AI is going to transform and democratize education and do so quickly. And I think that we don’t really know what skills students are going to need in the future, even if there is way more AI in the workplace. And historically, we’ve not been very good at predicting what skills our students are going to need to succeed in a world that is being increasingly redefined and shaped by different technologies. But I think the absolute most important thing that schools need to be doing right now, and I’ve definitely heard this from teachers, is they need to creating space for the kinds of conversations between teachers, between teachers and students, between school leaders about what values they want to center when they are giving their students guidance about how to use AI responsibly. You know, what counts as responsible use of AI? What counts as cheating? There are gonna be people in the schools who disagree about that. And if they can bring students into those conversations, all the better. But too many schools haven’t really convened those conversations. They haven’t given their teachers the chance to discuss AI, responsible use of AI with one another. And what I’m hearing from teachers is that when they’ve had a chance to be exposed to a little bit of information about AI and to talk these things out with their colleagues, with students, with school leaders. At least they feel a lot more comfortable and they feel like they can work towards a framework for how to proceed in this pretty complicated and confusing moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "teachers-strike-back-against-ai-cheating",
"title": "Teachers Strike Back Against AI Cheating",
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"headTitle": "Teachers Strike Back Against AI Cheating | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cheating in school isn’t new. But with AI making it easier than ever, teachers face a new challenge: where to draw the line and how to make sure students are still learning. In this episode, we’ll take a look at three different approaches educators are adopting to deal with AI in their classrooms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First, Morgan sits down with Max Spero, CEO and co-founder of the AI detection company Pangram Labs, to discuss how detection tools should, and should not, be used in the classroom. Then, we hear from KQED reporter Marlena Jackson Retondo about the return of the iconic “blue books,” and the benefits of “analog” learning. Finally, Morgan calls up her cousin, Jeremy Na, who happens to be an English teacher in San Jose. He explains how he adapted his teaching style to focus on the process of learning, rather than a final grade — and why his method has kept AI out of his classroom (for the most part).\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8041204001\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy Na, Bay Area-based educator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.pangram.com/about-us\">Max Spero\u003c/a>, founder of Pangram Labs \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/mjacksonretondo\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlena Jackson-Retondo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, engagement producer and reporter for KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/openai-chatgpt-ai-cheating-education-college-students-school.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone Is Cheating Their Way Through College\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – James D. Walsh, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NYMag\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">Taking Exams in Blue Books? They’re Back to Help Curb AI Use and Rampant Cheating\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> –\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Marlena Jackson Retondo\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>KQED’s Mindshift\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/business/chatgpt-ai-cheating-college-blue-books-5e3014a6\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They Were Every Student’s Worst Nightmare. Now Blue Books Are Back. \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– Ben Cohen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Wall Street Journal \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are your thoughts on, on generative AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generative AI is a fancy autocomplete, in my opinion. Trusting it is no different than trusting a magic 8-ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy Na is a Bay Area High School English teacher. He’s a great teacher, and I know this because he’s my older cousin, and he spent a lot of his teenage years at my parents’ dining table as my math tutor. Let’s just say I wasn’t the most cooperative student. One of the first hurdles of his teaching career was probably getting me to understand basic algebra. The second, getting me to actually sit down and do my math homework. And now, like many teachers, he faces another challenge: AI in the classroom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When my students tell me a lot about how they trust AI answers and stuff like that, I reference the SpongeBob episode where, you know, everyone in Bikini Bottom is trusting a magic conch shell to give them answers and decide their life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SpongeBob SquarePants: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh magic conch shell, what do we need to do to get out of the kelp forest? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SpongeBob SquarePants: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nothing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SpongeBob SquarePants: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shell has spoken! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it’s a big scam. Or rather, I know it’s big scam because, you know, it just sucks up money and is burning the environment for nothing. That’s my personal view of generative AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, my cousin Jeremy, not a fan of AI. In recent years, the use of AI tools has been a major point of contention between students and teachers. Scroll through any social media platform and you’ll see students give tips for getting away with submitting AI essays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I use ChatGPT, but this is the way to use ChatGPT and not get flagged for any plagiarism or anything like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Teachers fretting about their students’ dependence on AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nightmare that is destroying learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are the students who don’t use AI but get dragged in anyway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was falsely accused of using AI on my final paper last term, it was flagged as 60% AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In his nine years of teaching, my cousin Jeremy has seen his fair share of cheating attempts. His students have used ChatGBT since it launched about three years ago. But he quickly realized that his students were using it for more than just an academic shortcut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were asking me stuff like, Mr. Na, uh, how can I use AI to help me with this assignment? Or Mr. Na, you know, I was using AI the other day and it really helped me with X, Y, Z problem. At first, I thought these students were just kinda trolling cause like I thought to myself, there’s no way anyone would trust AI. This is the machines that like tell people to staple cheese to pizza to make it stick better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google AI actually recommended adding glue to pizza, but his point still stands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But no, I realized soon enough that my students were like serious about trusting AI. And that’s when I realized, oh, my students, you know, they’ve fallen for the propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still no consensus on the role of AI in education. Some teachers embrace it as a feature of their lesson plans. Others ban it from their classrooms entirely and blame AI for their students’ atrophied critical thinking skills. And at the center of this debate is a question that’s haunted educators throughout human history. What do we do about cheating? Now that everyone can carry little AI cheating machines in their pockets, AKA their phones, that debate has kicked into overdrive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s episode is a little different, because instead of following one thread, this internet rabbit hole will take us down a few different paths. We’re going to look at three different approaches to curbing AI cheating in school. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back when the internet was brand new, students suddenly had access to a virtually endless trove of information to copy and paste from. Academics needed a way to tell what was original and what was copied. So plagiarism detection was born. An entire industry dedicated to identifying and flagging stolen work. But with generative AI blowing up, checking for plagiarism isn’t enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First up, a new tab. What’s up with AI detection? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get into this, I called up Max Spero, co-founder and self-described chief slop janitor of Pangram Labs. Pangram is an AI detection tool that flags texts generated by all the major models like ChatGBT and Claude and Grok, and also detects AI-generated edits from tools like Grammarly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It could be an essay, it could be a review, it could a social media post. And then so we help people tell you like, yeah, what’s AI and what’s human. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cleaning up the slop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cleaning up the slop as they say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slop is the colloquial term for that low-quality, AI-generated content flooding the internet. Pangram didn’t start out as an educational tool. Max said that the company’s first customers were actually websites trying to detect and delete fake reviews. Pangram offered a free trial version of the tool on its website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then we were looking at the signups and we kept on seeing signups from like EDU addresses, people who are putting in what’s clearly student papers and people are doing this like at huge volumes. They’re just pasting in like dozens of papers a day. And then, so I think we were realizing like, hey, there’s a much bigger market here on this consumer side as well, where we can help teachers out because this is clearly a big need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pangram’s detection works by showing its model two writing samples. The first, written by a human, and the second, similar but AI-generated. They do this over and over and again. The model learns to recognize the way humans write, and distinguish it from AI trying to replicate it. That’s how certain sentence structures or words like “delve” and “rich cultural tapestry”, or even, my beloved em-dash, became associated with AI writing. Humans use all of those features in writing, but AI models overuse them. They’re predictable. There’s a misconception that students can bypass detection tools by paraphrasing AI-generated writing. That may have been the case a few years ago, but detection tools are getting better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We found that you need to rewrite at least 30% to 40% of some text before it’ll come back as human written. So you really have to like rewrite a large portion of the text before you’re able to erase these signs of AI writing. At that point, you might as well just write your essay yourself. But in the end, like all of these tools, at Pangram and other AI detectors, we can still train on these, the outputs of these tools, so we can detect, not only does this look AI generated, but it also looks like it was run through a humanizer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a program that rewrites AI-generated text to sound more, well, human. And of course, humanizers use AI to do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s even more clearly a sign of acting in bad faith. Like this is a clear indication that no, you didn’t just like misunderstand that you weren’t allowed to use ChatGPT, but like you actually were actively cheating here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not impossible to bypass AI detection, but Max said that many AI detectors, including Pangram, can still flag humanized text as AI. He added that since these students are often trying to take the path of least resistance, the threat of detection could be enough to deter cheating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adding a little bit of friction here goes a long way to helping put down these guardrails and say like, okay, fine, you know, if it’s not really easy for me to just use AI to generate my assignment, I’ll just do it myself. It’s not that bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some teachers have tried to AI-proof their assignments by adding a random prompt in white text, like “mention bananas in every paragraph.” The human eye can’t see the white text on a white digital background. If a student copies and pastes it into ChatGPT, they’ll get a generated essay that has nothing to do with the actual assignment, but a lot to do with bananas. It’s a dead giveaway that they used AI to complete the paper. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also some confusion over what detection scores mean. A score of 60% doesn’t mean that 60% of the essay is AI-generated, it’s a confidence score. It means that the detection tool is 60% certain that the text it analyzed is AI generated, which is pretty far from certain. That’s why students who wrote completely original papers have been accused of cheating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These AI-proofing hacks and the knee-jerk reaction to accuse students of using AI without hearing them out says a lot about the relationship between students and teachers right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s a big problem in trust right now in education, especially because, um, the nature of it is so adversarial. I think like we really need to take a step back and realize that we have a shared goal. The goal is to get the student to learn. And I think a lot of this starts with like how we understand assignments. Like, teachers need to be very clear to students like, hey, these are the guardrails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you can use AI, for example, to do brainstorming or an outline, but don’t use AI to fully produce your assignment. Um, and similarly, once the student has like a very clear understanding of like, these are the guidelines, this is what I can and can’t do, um, then it’s easier for them to work together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s your stance on teachers using Pangram to grade? Are AI detection tools like the end all be all? Can teachers rely on it completely? How do you best see Pangram being used in the grading process? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like really only the start. It is best used as a smoke detector to tell you, hey, something’s wrong. I should look into what’s going on here. I don’t think it’s appropriate to say like, hey, this AI detector flagged your work as AI, so I’m gonna give you a zero and then just like move on. I think that’s, that’s lazy and that doesn’t really turn the opportunity into a teaching moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Detection tools are just one part of a holistic grading process. Max added that some teachers integrate AI detection into their classroom platforms so that students can check themselves before they turn in their assignments. But other teachers are taking a wildly different approach. Instead of leaning into detection, they’re going back to the olden days. We’ll dive into the return of handwriting after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Let’s take a look at the next strategy teachers have employed to hold the line against AI. If you were in college before the pandemic started, you might remember this vintage classic. Okay, new tab. Back to blue books. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My colleague, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, is joining us for this part of our deep dive. Marlena has been reporting on AI and K through 12 education for MindShift, another KQED podcast about the future of learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I guess now we can say that blue books are an old-fashioned, in quotes, tool that, um, a lot of professors and high school teachers use to test students. And they’re used for a lot midterms and finals, and are an alternative to now what we know as, you know, digital testing tools. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve used blue books. You’ve used blue books. I feel like it wasn’t that long ago that we were using blue books. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re not that old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Blue books are exactly what they sound like. They’re little booklets with a baby blue cover and lined paper. They’ve been around since the 1920s and they’ve been a staple of written exams in high school and college. I still remember the absolute horror I felt my junior year of college when my pen exploded just as I finished my constitutional law final and I had to turn in a blue book covered in purple ink. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But blue books were phased out when the pandemic shut down schools in 2020. Everything involved in learning, from lessons to homework to exams, took place online. And then, late last year, Marlena saw a viral post from Jason Coupe, a professor in Atlanta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he was talking about using blue books, bringing them back to the classroom for his first midterm of that school year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you talk about his reasoning behind moving to blue books? How did other teachers react to that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He and a couple other professors in his department got together and discussed ways to mitigate cheating, use of AI, and also to reengage their students. When we spoke last year, there was a lot of discussion about really getting students to think on their feet, think critically, respond to questions in ways that they might in the real world. And he wasn’t seeing a lot of that in digital exams. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this wasn’t just about cheating. It wasn’t just about AI. There was also that sense of reconnecting the students to the coursework. And it was a learning curve for a lot of students, um, as I’ve heard from multiple professors, but it went well, and a lot of folks will continue to, to use these blue books. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By 2024, you know, this is a generation of students that have spent at least four years, you know, learning digitally in some capacity. How did they respond to having to go back to handwriting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so a lot of Coupe’s students didn’t know what a blue book was. They had never taken a handwritten exam. They didn’t what to do with the blue book, where to write their name. So he had to teach them. And I remember him saying that it reminded him of his time in teaching in elementary school, um, having to really break down certain processes for students. But, you know, they learned, they took the exam by hand, and he and other professors noticed a difference right away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from deterring cheating, how else does prioritizing handwritten notes impact learning? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The research on handwriting is actually really interesting. I spoke with Sophia Vinci-Booher out of Vanderbilt University. She talked to me about handwriting in a really interesting way in that it creates these neural connections to what you’re learning. And this is what she called the visual motor learning system. So it’s combining these two systems, the motor system of handwriting and the visuals of learning something that might be written on the board or a PowerPoint, and it’s combining them and it’s reinforcing what you’re learning when you’re writing by hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been shown that the mode of taking notes, when it correlates with the mode of having to recall that information, like taking an exam. When those modes are synced, so let’s say there’s a student who takes notes by hand, and then they have to go and take an exam on a blue book, the recall is better that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So essentially, students are “learning more”, that’s in big quotes, because obviously there are other factors involved in learning. But there’s better learning happening when the mode of note taking and recalling those notes is the same. So, you know, I think there’s a lot more research to look at and to be done, but there are certain benefits to writing by hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And blue books are hot again. Earlier this year, The Wall Street Journal reported that blue book sales were up more than 30% at Texas A&M University and almost 50% at the University of Florida. At UC Berkeley, blue book sales shot up 80% over the past two years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, this return to our roots has its limits. Blue books are great for exams, but they’re not a realistic option for longer assignments like research papers. And neither approach we’ve covered so far, AI detection and blue books, addresses the core reasons students cheat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s look at one final strategy in a new tab. The testmaxxing problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s go back to my cousin, Jeremy, who’s a high school English teacher in the Bay Area. We both grew up in New York City and went to very academically rigorous public high schools. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The standards of the time, this was in, you know, the early 2000s, was very much, let’s call it testmaxxing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In gaming, there’s this practice called minmaxxing — maximizing your stats with a minimal amount of effort. On the internet, adding maxing to the end of any word is kind of like a joke about optimizing. So by test maxing, Jeremy is referring to the way that students are encouraged to shape their whole approach to school around succeeding on tests instead of actually learning. He believes that’s the reason students cheat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, when I became a teacher, I set out to make sure that like no one else has that same experience as I did that, you know, students don’t have this miserable high school experience where they’re treated like cattle, basically. Like you gotta you gotta get those numbers up. Your entire worth is decided by these numbers. Our society has placed a lot of importance on the end result of education rather than like education itself. What I mean by that is it’s more important what grade you get on the test than what you learned through the process before taking the test. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To counter the pressure of testmaxxing, Jeremy does things differently in his classroom. He never assigns homework. All the work, including reading and writing assignments, is done in the classroom. He does assign long-term projects, like essays, but he has his own way of AI-proofing them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This methodology, this pedagogy that I’ve developed is developed from shifting priorities away from the end result over into focusing on the process, right? So the fact that it’s inconvenient to use AI was just kind of like a happy little bonus. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He really does make it inconvenient to cheat in his classes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, I don’t see a lot of AI usage. It’s always like one or two out of my 150 students. And the reason I don’t see a lof of AI usage is because when we’re doing it, a long-term assignment like an essay, I make sure to break down that assignment into as many granular pieces as possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for example, with my freshmen, ninth graders, when we were doing an essay I’ll often walk them through, not only like how to construct each paragraph, but how to construct like the parts of each paragraph. Like sometimes we’ll go sentence by sentence. In that scenario it would be kind of absurd to use AI, right? Because like Mr. Na is telling you, okay, write one sentence about your opinion on this part of the book, right. Why, why would you go ask Grok or ChatGPT opinion about the book when you can just write your own opinion in one sentence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is your classroom AI policy, even though, you know, you personally despise AI? Like do you use a detection tool for your students? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t use detection tools at all. I would not trust AI to tell me what the weather is. Why would I trust it to read student reports and, you know, analyze them? That’s absurd. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite his evident disdain for generative AI, my cousin doesn’t have the same zero tolerance policy that a lot of other teachers have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t explicitly call out their paper for being AI. But what I will do is, you know, I’ll sit with them and be like, “You know, this, this paper’s got a lot of problems. This assignment that you wrote has lots of problems, like it’s, it’s overflowing with problems. I got to sit you down here and we got to talk for like 15 minutes. Sentence by sentence and deconstruct this essay to fix it.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like in that scenario, students do learn like what’s wrong with using AI. Conceivably, they could learn to cheat better this way, but in my view, what they’re actually learning is that the assignment I’m asking them to do is not something outside of their capabilities. So yes, they are learning what the flaws of AI are, but they’re also learning that they are more capable than they might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Telling a teenager not to do something never works. Yeah. If you want a teenager to do something, right? If you want that horse to drink that water, you gotta make the water appealing. You gotta explain why it’s in their best interests not to so, right? They gotta come to that conclusion on their own. The downside is that this process takes a lot of time. So yes, I don’t get through many bucks throughout the school year, but I feel like the quality of the work and the learning that students receive is a lot better for that sacrifice. And I’m willing, I’m, I am willing to make that sacrifice \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like on Reddit, I’m always seeing teachers and professors talk about the ways that they AI-proof their assignments, like adding white text to trip up the prompts or splitting up instructions into multiple documents so it’s really inconvenient to give it to ChatGPT. Have you and your colleagues tried any of these? What do you think about these, like, AI-proofing tricks? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think getting into a arms race with AI is unhelpful. So coming up with different ways to detect AI, and then AI comes up with ways of getting around that, you know, this arms race that you’re describing, I don’t see a point to engaging with it. If you want students to stop using AI, you got to address the core issue, right, rather than just constantly dealing with these symptoms like some absurd game of whack-a-mole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you might be able to tell, Jeremy feels pretty strongly about this. He believes that putting so much value on the final product, whether a final paper or a final test score, deprioritizes actual learning, overwhelms students, and incentivizes cheating. Still, he has to teach within the system that values end results. His students still have to take California’s standardized tests. But he said that prepping them for the annual state assessments doesn’t take that much time. For the rest of the school year, he can focus on breaking down assignments and, through that, developing their critical thinking skills. It’s not that grades don’t matter, but by focusing on actual learning, students feel less pressure to cheat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone is telling them to participate in this rat race, that they have to. That they have no choice but to participate in this rat race to climb to the top, you know. If they are learning, right? I tell students not to deride all of their self-worth from the numbers they get at school. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like the larger question we’re trying to answer throughout the episode is how do you maintain that sense of trust between students and teachers when generative AI tools makes cheating so easy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think, say that like trust between student and teacher has eroded. I think it’s more that teachers are becoming more suspicious overall because the tools that they’ve developed in the past no longer work. Students using AI is not a sign of, I don’t know, like moral degeneracy, and the youth of today are worse than they have been in the past, no. But you know, students are cheating nowadays, just like students would have cheated back when I was in high school or when my parents were in high score when my grandparents were in high school. It’s not a sign of moral decay. It’s a sign of, I don’t know, of the downfall of Western civilization or nothing like that. It’s just a new chapter in the book that’s been written forever. Cheating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just teachers trying to curb their students’ use of AI. Students are also upset with teachers for using ChatGPT to write lesson plans. In a New York Times report this year, students complained about their professors cheating them out of their tuition money, because in a way, it was ChatGpT teaching them. These issues have existed in education long before generative AI tools did. The existence and widespread use of AI just magnified them. Including this adversarial relationship between students and teachers. But in this scenario, teachers can set an example. If they don’t use AI, then maybe students won’t feel like they need to, either. Okay, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Our audio engineer is Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsay is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? Your support is so important, especially in these unprecedented times. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED.org/podcasts! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram @CloseAllTabsPod. Or TikTok @CloseAllTabs. And join our Discord — we’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Teachers Strike Back Against AI Cheating | KQED",
"description": "Cheating in school isn’t new. But with AI making it easier than ever, teachers face a new challenge: where to draw the line, and how to make sure students are still learning. In this episode, we’ll take a look at three different approaches educators are adopting to deal with AI in their classrooms.First, Morgan sits down with Max Spero, founder of the AI detection company Pangram Labs, to discuss how detection tools should — and should not — be used in the classroom. Then, we hear from KQED reporter Marlena Jackson Retondo about the return of the iconic “blue books,” and the benefits of “analog” learning. Finally, Morgan calls up her cousin, Jeremy Na, who happens to be an English teacher in San Jose. He explains how he adapted his teaching style to focus on the process of learning, rather than a final grade — and why his method has kept AI out of his classroom (for the most part).",
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"socialDescription": "Cheating in school isn’t new. But with AI making it easier than ever, teachers face a new challenge: where to draw the line, and how to make sure students are still learning. In this episode, we’ll take a look at three different approaches educators are adopting to deal with AI in their classrooms.First, Morgan sits down with Max Spero, founder of the AI detection company Pangram Labs, to discuss how detection tools should — and should not — be used in the classroom. Then, we hear from KQED reporter Marlena Jackson Retondo about the return of the iconic “blue books,” and the benefits of “analog” learning. Finally, Morgan calls up her cousin, Jeremy Na, who happens to be an English teacher in San Jose. He explains how he adapted his teaching style to focus on the process of learning, rather than a final grade — and why his method has kept AI out of his classroom (for the most part).",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cheating in school isn’t new. But with AI making it easier than ever, teachers face a new challenge: where to draw the line and how to make sure students are still learning. In this episode, we’ll take a look at three different approaches educators are adopting to deal with AI in their classrooms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First, Morgan sits down with Max Spero, CEO and co-founder of the AI detection company Pangram Labs, to discuss how detection tools should, and should not, be used in the classroom. Then, we hear from KQED reporter Marlena Jackson Retondo about the return of the iconic “blue books,” and the benefits of “analog” learning. Finally, Morgan calls up her cousin, Jeremy Na, who happens to be an English teacher in San Jose. He explains how he adapted his teaching style to focus on the process of learning, rather than a final grade — and why his method has kept AI out of his classroom (for the most part).\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8041204001\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy Na, Bay Area-based educator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.pangram.com/about-us\">Max Spero\u003c/a>, founder of Pangram Labs \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/mjacksonretondo\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlena Jackson-Retondo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, engagement producer and reporter for KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/openai-chatgpt-ai-cheating-education-college-students-school.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone Is Cheating Their Way Through College\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – James D. Walsh, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NYMag\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">Taking Exams in Blue Books? They’re Back to Help Curb AI Use and Rampant Cheating\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> –\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Marlena Jackson Retondo\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>KQED’s Mindshift\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/business/chatgpt-ai-cheating-college-blue-books-5e3014a6\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They Were Every Student’s Worst Nightmare. Now Blue Books Are Back. \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– Ben Cohen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Wall Street Journal \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are your thoughts on, on generative AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generative AI is a fancy autocomplete, in my opinion. Trusting it is no different than trusting a magic 8-ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy Na is a Bay Area High School English teacher. He’s a great teacher, and I know this because he’s my older cousin, and he spent a lot of his teenage years at my parents’ dining table as my math tutor. Let’s just say I wasn’t the most cooperative student. One of the first hurdles of his teaching career was probably getting me to understand basic algebra. The second, getting me to actually sit down and do my math homework. And now, like many teachers, he faces another challenge: AI in the classroom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When my students tell me a lot about how they trust AI answers and stuff like that, I reference the SpongeBob episode where, you know, everyone in Bikini Bottom is trusting a magic conch shell to give them answers and decide their life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SpongeBob SquarePants: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh magic conch shell, what do we need to do to get out of the kelp forest? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SpongeBob SquarePants: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nothing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SpongeBob SquarePants: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shell has spoken! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it’s a big scam. Or rather, I know it’s big scam because, you know, it just sucks up money and is burning the environment for nothing. That’s my personal view of generative AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, my cousin Jeremy, not a fan of AI. In recent years, the use of AI tools has been a major point of contention between students and teachers. Scroll through any social media platform and you’ll see students give tips for getting away with submitting AI essays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I use ChatGPT, but this is the way to use ChatGPT and not get flagged for any plagiarism or anything like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Teachers fretting about their students’ dependence on AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nightmare that is destroying learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are the students who don’t use AI but get dragged in anyway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was falsely accused of using AI on my final paper last term, it was flagged as 60% AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In his nine years of teaching, my cousin Jeremy has seen his fair share of cheating attempts. His students have used ChatGBT since it launched about three years ago. But he quickly realized that his students were using it for more than just an academic shortcut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were asking me stuff like, Mr. Na, uh, how can I use AI to help me with this assignment? Or Mr. Na, you know, I was using AI the other day and it really helped me with X, Y, Z problem. At first, I thought these students were just kinda trolling cause like I thought to myself, there’s no way anyone would trust AI. This is the machines that like tell people to staple cheese to pizza to make it stick better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google AI actually recommended adding glue to pizza, but his point still stands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But no, I realized soon enough that my students were like serious about trusting AI. And that’s when I realized, oh, my students, you know, they’ve fallen for the propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still no consensus on the role of AI in education. Some teachers embrace it as a feature of their lesson plans. Others ban it from their classrooms entirely and blame AI for their students’ atrophied critical thinking skills. And at the center of this debate is a question that’s haunted educators throughout human history. What do we do about cheating? Now that everyone can carry little AI cheating machines in their pockets, AKA their phones, that debate has kicked into overdrive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s episode is a little different, because instead of following one thread, this internet rabbit hole will take us down a few different paths. We’re going to look at three different approaches to curbing AI cheating in school. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back when the internet was brand new, students suddenly had access to a virtually endless trove of information to copy and paste from. Academics needed a way to tell what was original and what was copied. So plagiarism detection was born. An entire industry dedicated to identifying and flagging stolen work. But with generative AI blowing up, checking for plagiarism isn’t enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First up, a new tab. What’s up with AI detection? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get into this, I called up Max Spero, co-founder and self-described chief slop janitor of Pangram Labs. Pangram is an AI detection tool that flags texts generated by all the major models like ChatGBT and Claude and Grok, and also detects AI-generated edits from tools like Grammarly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It could be an essay, it could be a review, it could a social media post. And then so we help people tell you like, yeah, what’s AI and what’s human. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cleaning up the slop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cleaning up the slop as they say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slop is the colloquial term for that low-quality, AI-generated content flooding the internet. Pangram didn’t start out as an educational tool. Max said that the company’s first customers were actually websites trying to detect and delete fake reviews. Pangram offered a free trial version of the tool on its website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then we were looking at the signups and we kept on seeing signups from like EDU addresses, people who are putting in what’s clearly student papers and people are doing this like at huge volumes. They’re just pasting in like dozens of papers a day. And then, so I think we were realizing like, hey, there’s a much bigger market here on this consumer side as well, where we can help teachers out because this is clearly a big need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pangram’s detection works by showing its model two writing samples. The first, written by a human, and the second, similar but AI-generated. They do this over and over and again. The model learns to recognize the way humans write, and distinguish it from AI trying to replicate it. That’s how certain sentence structures or words like “delve” and “rich cultural tapestry”, or even, my beloved em-dash, became associated with AI writing. Humans use all of those features in writing, but AI models overuse them. They’re predictable. There’s a misconception that students can bypass detection tools by paraphrasing AI-generated writing. That may have been the case a few years ago, but detection tools are getting better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We found that you need to rewrite at least 30% to 40% of some text before it’ll come back as human written. So you really have to like rewrite a large portion of the text before you’re able to erase these signs of AI writing. At that point, you might as well just write your essay yourself. But in the end, like all of these tools, at Pangram and other AI detectors, we can still train on these, the outputs of these tools, so we can detect, not only does this look AI generated, but it also looks like it was run through a humanizer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a program that rewrites AI-generated text to sound more, well, human. And of course, humanizers use AI to do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s even more clearly a sign of acting in bad faith. Like this is a clear indication that no, you didn’t just like misunderstand that you weren’t allowed to use ChatGPT, but like you actually were actively cheating here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not impossible to bypass AI detection, but Max said that many AI detectors, including Pangram, can still flag humanized text as AI. He added that since these students are often trying to take the path of least resistance, the threat of detection could be enough to deter cheating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adding a little bit of friction here goes a long way to helping put down these guardrails and say like, okay, fine, you know, if it’s not really easy for me to just use AI to generate my assignment, I’ll just do it myself. It’s not that bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some teachers have tried to AI-proof their assignments by adding a random prompt in white text, like “mention bananas in every paragraph.” The human eye can’t see the white text on a white digital background. If a student copies and pastes it into ChatGPT, they’ll get a generated essay that has nothing to do with the actual assignment, but a lot to do with bananas. It’s a dead giveaway that they used AI to complete the paper. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also some confusion over what detection scores mean. A score of 60% doesn’t mean that 60% of the essay is AI-generated, it’s a confidence score. It means that the detection tool is 60% certain that the text it analyzed is AI generated, which is pretty far from certain. That’s why students who wrote completely original papers have been accused of cheating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These AI-proofing hacks and the knee-jerk reaction to accuse students of using AI without hearing them out says a lot about the relationship between students and teachers right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s a big problem in trust right now in education, especially because, um, the nature of it is so adversarial. I think like we really need to take a step back and realize that we have a shared goal. The goal is to get the student to learn. And I think a lot of this starts with like how we understand assignments. Like, teachers need to be very clear to students like, hey, these are the guardrails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you can use AI, for example, to do brainstorming or an outline, but don’t use AI to fully produce your assignment. Um, and similarly, once the student has like a very clear understanding of like, these are the guidelines, this is what I can and can’t do, um, then it’s easier for them to work together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s your stance on teachers using Pangram to grade? Are AI detection tools like the end all be all? Can teachers rely on it completely? How do you best see Pangram being used in the grading process? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Max Spero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like really only the start. It is best used as a smoke detector to tell you, hey, something’s wrong. I should look into what’s going on here. I don’t think it’s appropriate to say like, hey, this AI detector flagged your work as AI, so I’m gonna give you a zero and then just like move on. I think that’s, that’s lazy and that doesn’t really turn the opportunity into a teaching moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Detection tools are just one part of a holistic grading process. Max added that some teachers integrate AI detection into their classroom platforms so that students can check themselves before they turn in their assignments. But other teachers are taking a wildly different approach. Instead of leaning into detection, they’re going back to the olden days. We’ll dive into the return of handwriting after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Let’s take a look at the next strategy teachers have employed to hold the line against AI. If you were in college before the pandemic started, you might remember this vintage classic. Okay, new tab. Back to blue books. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My colleague, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, is joining us for this part of our deep dive. Marlena has been reporting on AI and K through 12 education for MindShift, another KQED podcast about the future of learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I guess now we can say that blue books are an old-fashioned, in quotes, tool that, um, a lot of professors and high school teachers use to test students. And they’re used for a lot midterms and finals, and are an alternative to now what we know as, you know, digital testing tools. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve used blue books. You’ve used blue books. I feel like it wasn’t that long ago that we were using blue books. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re not that old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Blue books are exactly what they sound like. They’re little booklets with a baby blue cover and lined paper. They’ve been around since the 1920s and they’ve been a staple of written exams in high school and college. I still remember the absolute horror I felt my junior year of college when my pen exploded just as I finished my constitutional law final and I had to turn in a blue book covered in purple ink. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But blue books were phased out when the pandemic shut down schools in 2020. Everything involved in learning, from lessons to homework to exams, took place online. And then, late last year, Marlena saw a viral post from Jason Coupe, a professor in Atlanta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he was talking about using blue books, bringing them back to the classroom for his first midterm of that school year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you talk about his reasoning behind moving to blue books? How did other teachers react to that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He and a couple other professors in his department got together and discussed ways to mitigate cheating, use of AI, and also to reengage their students. When we spoke last year, there was a lot of discussion about really getting students to think on their feet, think critically, respond to questions in ways that they might in the real world. And he wasn’t seeing a lot of that in digital exams. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this wasn’t just about cheating. It wasn’t just about AI. There was also that sense of reconnecting the students to the coursework. And it was a learning curve for a lot of students, um, as I’ve heard from multiple professors, but it went well, and a lot of folks will continue to, to use these blue books. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By 2024, you know, this is a generation of students that have spent at least four years, you know, learning digitally in some capacity. How did they respond to having to go back to handwriting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so a lot of Coupe’s students didn’t know what a blue book was. They had never taken a handwritten exam. They didn’t what to do with the blue book, where to write their name. So he had to teach them. And I remember him saying that it reminded him of his time in teaching in elementary school, um, having to really break down certain processes for students. But, you know, they learned, they took the exam by hand, and he and other professors noticed a difference right away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from deterring cheating, how else does prioritizing handwritten notes impact learning? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The research on handwriting is actually really interesting. I spoke with Sophia Vinci-Booher out of Vanderbilt University. She talked to me about handwriting in a really interesting way in that it creates these neural connections to what you’re learning. And this is what she called the visual motor learning system. So it’s combining these two systems, the motor system of handwriting and the visuals of learning something that might be written on the board or a PowerPoint, and it’s combining them and it’s reinforcing what you’re learning when you’re writing by hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been shown that the mode of taking notes, when it correlates with the mode of having to recall that information, like taking an exam. When those modes are synced, so let’s say there’s a student who takes notes by hand, and then they have to go and take an exam on a blue book, the recall is better that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So essentially, students are “learning more”, that’s in big quotes, because obviously there are other factors involved in learning. But there’s better learning happening when the mode of note taking and recalling those notes is the same. So, you know, I think there’s a lot more research to look at and to be done, but there are certain benefits to writing by hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And blue books are hot again. Earlier this year, The Wall Street Journal reported that blue book sales were up more than 30% at Texas A&M University and almost 50% at the University of Florida. At UC Berkeley, blue book sales shot up 80% over the past two years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, this return to our roots has its limits. Blue books are great for exams, but they’re not a realistic option for longer assignments like research papers. And neither approach we’ve covered so far, AI detection and blue books, addresses the core reasons students cheat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s look at one final strategy in a new tab. The testmaxxing problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s go back to my cousin, Jeremy, who’s a high school English teacher in the Bay Area. We both grew up in New York City and went to very academically rigorous public high schools. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The standards of the time, this was in, you know, the early 2000s, was very much, let’s call it testmaxxing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In gaming, there’s this practice called minmaxxing — maximizing your stats with a minimal amount of effort. On the internet, adding maxing to the end of any word is kind of like a joke about optimizing. So by test maxing, Jeremy is referring to the way that students are encouraged to shape their whole approach to school around succeeding on tests instead of actually learning. He believes that’s the reason students cheat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, when I became a teacher, I set out to make sure that like no one else has that same experience as I did that, you know, students don’t have this miserable high school experience where they’re treated like cattle, basically. Like you gotta you gotta get those numbers up. Your entire worth is decided by these numbers. Our society has placed a lot of importance on the end result of education rather than like education itself. What I mean by that is it’s more important what grade you get on the test than what you learned through the process before taking the test. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To counter the pressure of testmaxxing, Jeremy does things differently in his classroom. He never assigns homework. All the work, including reading and writing assignments, is done in the classroom. He does assign long-term projects, like essays, but he has his own way of AI-proofing them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This methodology, this pedagogy that I’ve developed is developed from shifting priorities away from the end result over into focusing on the process, right? So the fact that it’s inconvenient to use AI was just kind of like a happy little bonus. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He really does make it inconvenient to cheat in his classes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, I don’t see a lot of AI usage. It’s always like one or two out of my 150 students. And the reason I don’t see a lof of AI usage is because when we’re doing it, a long-term assignment like an essay, I make sure to break down that assignment into as many granular pieces as possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for example, with my freshmen, ninth graders, when we were doing an essay I’ll often walk them through, not only like how to construct each paragraph, but how to construct like the parts of each paragraph. Like sometimes we’ll go sentence by sentence. In that scenario it would be kind of absurd to use AI, right? Because like Mr. Na is telling you, okay, write one sentence about your opinion on this part of the book, right. Why, why would you go ask Grok or ChatGPT opinion about the book when you can just write your own opinion in one sentence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is your classroom AI policy, even though, you know, you personally despise AI? Like do you use a detection tool for your students? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t use detection tools at all. I would not trust AI to tell me what the weather is. Why would I trust it to read student reports and, you know, analyze them? That’s absurd. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite his evident disdain for generative AI, my cousin doesn’t have the same zero tolerance policy that a lot of other teachers have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t explicitly call out their paper for being AI. But what I will do is, you know, I’ll sit with them and be like, “You know, this, this paper’s got a lot of problems. This assignment that you wrote has lots of problems, like it’s, it’s overflowing with problems. I got to sit you down here and we got to talk for like 15 minutes. Sentence by sentence and deconstruct this essay to fix it.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like in that scenario, students do learn like what’s wrong with using AI. Conceivably, they could learn to cheat better this way, but in my view, what they’re actually learning is that the assignment I’m asking them to do is not something outside of their capabilities. So yes, they are learning what the flaws of AI are, but they’re also learning that they are more capable than they might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Telling a teenager not to do something never works. Yeah. If you want a teenager to do something, right? If you want that horse to drink that water, you gotta make the water appealing. You gotta explain why it’s in their best interests not to so, right? They gotta come to that conclusion on their own. The downside is that this process takes a lot of time. So yes, I don’t get through many bucks throughout the school year, but I feel like the quality of the work and the learning that students receive is a lot better for that sacrifice. And I’m willing, I’m, I am willing to make that sacrifice \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like on Reddit, I’m always seeing teachers and professors talk about the ways that they AI-proof their assignments, like adding white text to trip up the prompts or splitting up instructions into multiple documents so it’s really inconvenient to give it to ChatGPT. Have you and your colleagues tried any of these? What do you think about these, like, AI-proofing tricks? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think getting into a arms race with AI is unhelpful. So coming up with different ways to detect AI, and then AI comes up with ways of getting around that, you know, this arms race that you’re describing, I don’t see a point to engaging with it. If you want students to stop using AI, you got to address the core issue, right, rather than just constantly dealing with these symptoms like some absurd game of whack-a-mole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you might be able to tell, Jeremy feels pretty strongly about this. He believes that putting so much value on the final product, whether a final paper or a final test score, deprioritizes actual learning, overwhelms students, and incentivizes cheating. Still, he has to teach within the system that values end results. His students still have to take California’s standardized tests. But he said that prepping them for the annual state assessments doesn’t take that much time. For the rest of the school year, he can focus on breaking down assignments and, through that, developing their critical thinking skills. It’s not that grades don’t matter, but by focusing on actual learning, students feel less pressure to cheat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone is telling them to participate in this rat race, that they have to. That they have no choice but to participate in this rat race to climb to the top, you know. If they are learning, right? I tell students not to deride all of their self-worth from the numbers they get at school. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like the larger question we’re trying to answer throughout the episode is how do you maintain that sense of trust between students and teachers when generative AI tools makes cheating so easy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Na:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think, say that like trust between student and teacher has eroded. I think it’s more that teachers are becoming more suspicious overall because the tools that they’ve developed in the past no longer work. Students using AI is not a sign of, I don’t know, like moral degeneracy, and the youth of today are worse than they have been in the past, no. But you know, students are cheating nowadays, just like students would have cheated back when I was in high school or when my parents were in high score when my grandparents were in high school. It’s not a sign of moral decay. It’s a sign of, I don’t know, of the downfall of Western civilization or nothing like that. It’s just a new chapter in the book that’s been written forever. Cheating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just teachers trying to curb their students’ use of AI. Students are also upset with teachers for using ChatGPT to write lesson plans. In a New York Times report this year, students complained about their professors cheating them out of their tuition money, because in a way, it was ChatGpT teaching them. These issues have existed in education long before generative AI tools did. The existence and widespread use of AI just magnified them. Including this adversarial relationship between students and teachers. But in this scenario, teachers can set an example. If they don’t use AI, then maybe students won’t feel like they need to, either. Okay, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Our audio engineer is Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsay is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? Your support is so important, especially in these unprecedented times. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED.org/podcasts! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram @CloseAllTabsPod. Or TikTok @CloseAllTabs. And join our Discord — we’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Before ChatGPT, There Were 'Shadow Scholars'",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thousands of writers in Kenya make their living ghostwriting academic papers for wealthy Western students. It’s an industry known as “contract cheating” or “essay mills,” and is the subject of a new documentary, “The Shadow Scholars.” Directed by Eloise King, the film follows Kenyan-born Oxford Professor Patricia Kingori as she investigates this hidden industry and seeks to understand the essay writers working in the shadows of the educational system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan talks with Patricia and Eloise about the world of academic cheating, and how these writers are adapting to a world in which AI-generated essays are just a click away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1401351139\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.some.ox.ac.uk/our-people/patricia-kingori/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patricia Kingori\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of global health ethics at the University of Oxford\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/challenge/?next=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instagram.com%2Felloweezee%2F%3Fhl%3Den%26__coig_challenged%3D1#\">Eloise King\u003c/a>, director of “The Shadow Scholars”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLZCTERhImw\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Shadow Scholars \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Directed by Eloise King \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354713537_Kenya's_Fake_Essay_Writers_and_the_Light_they_Shine_on_Assumptions_of_Shadows_in_Knowledge_Production/citation/download\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kenya’s “Fake Essay” Writers and the Light they Shine on Assumptions of Shadows in Knowledge Production\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Patricia Kingori, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Journal of African Cultural Studies \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/ghostwriting-essays-american-college-students-lucrative-profession-kenya-a9096461.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How writing essays for American students has become a lucrative profession overseas\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Farah Stockman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Independent \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2025/05/14/georgia-bans-commercial-cheating-services/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia Bans Commercial Cheating Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Derek Newton, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fastcompany.com/90951343/ai-essays-advertising-on-meta-and-tiktok\">Companies that use AI to help you cheat at school are thriving on TikTok and Meta\u003c/a> — Chris Stokel-Walker, \u003ci>Fast Company\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Imagine you’re a college student. The end of the semester is just around the corner. It’s the middle of finals week and you have to study for an exam, finish a presentation and turn in a research paper all within the next 12 hours. Unfortunately, you’ve been procrastinating and you only have time to finish two of those three things. You could use a tool like Chat GPT, but you don’t wanna get caught using AI. So you open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the search bar, you type, essay… writer… fast. Enter. Dozens of results pop up. Websites with generic-sounding names, but sleek, friendly designs. They promise high-quality, custom essays delivered in days, or even hours. All you have to do is run through a few drop-down menus and pick what you need, and then enter your credit card number. You’ve just stepped into an industry known as “contract cheating,” better known as essay mills. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the subject of a new documentary, The Shadow Scholars, which just had its North American premiere at Tribeca Film Festival. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Shadow Scholars Trailer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve all grown up being told that education empowers us. And if you study at school, then you’re going to get the rewards. I’m going to shine a light on the world’s billion-dollar secret. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It looks at who the people are on the other side of that screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day I was invited to go along to a lecture at the Oxford Internet Institute and they were talking about these online laborers. And then they started talking about different parts of the world and where different people in different parts of the worlds use the internet for work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Patricia Kingori, a Kenyan-born UK-based sociologist. In 2021, she became the youngest Black professor at the University of Oxford. She’s also one of the main subjects of the film. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So then they described Kenya and said, you know, there is this writing and translation work, which is a kind of euphemism for the fake essay industry. And I just became really interested in, well, who are these people? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This topic is personal for Patricia. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if you have had your thesis stolen, as I have had the ideas from my thesis stolen, you immediately start to believe that an industry where people do benefit from the intellect of others exists, right? I think really allowed me to start from a presumption of the fact that they exist rather than I think where many people have not had this experience might start, which is, well, how can that be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just after attending the lecture, Patricia caught up with filmmaker Eloise King, who ended up directing the documentary. They had known each other for years, and Patricia casually mentioned the so-called fake essay industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My immediate reaction was how do real people write fake essays? And I was immediately obsessed. I think one of the things that we share is a kind of an inquisitiveness that goes really deep once it’s sort of implanted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, Eloise and Patricia, dug deeper. What they found was a booming, but mostly hidden industry of writers centered in Kenya, who are paid to produce academic work for others. Patricia wrote about it in 2021 in the Journal of African Culture Studies. The name “shadow scholars” comes from author Dave Tomar, who wrote about his own experience as an academic ghostwriter in his 2012 memoir. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The film, “The Shadow Scholars”, is less about the ethics of cheating and more about the unseen labor involved. The documentary focuses on the shadow scholars based in Kenya, which is a major hub for the fake essay industry. They’re often hired by students in the US, the UK, and Australia. Here’s Patricia in the film. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So of all of the online labor work that’s going on in Kenya, 72% of that… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Professor Vili Lehdonvirta: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is engaged in writing and translation work. Actually, we know it’s just writing essays for students in global North universities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, Patricia presenting these findings really turned on a light for me because what we had was this really difficult to prove, you know, lived experience of like global majority but like marginalized communities within education. And so I just became really excited with the idea that we could ask more questions and find out if this flow of information was really kind of fueling institutions around the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just undergrad essays. Shadow scholars are also hired to write entire PhD dissertations. They do all of the work, but someone else gets the credit, the qualifications, and eventually the jobs. The shadow scholars, meanwhile, aren’t afforded the same opportunities. So who are these shadow scholars? How does this exchange work? And what is the generative AI boom doing to this industry that relies on human intellectual labor? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We sat down with Patricia and Eloise to learn about how this industry works and shine some light on the people at the center of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab. Who are the shadow scholars? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even the word fake essay, like that’s such a loaded phrase where, you know, the premise may be fake, but the person writing it is real, the content is real, it is a real academic work. Why frame this as shadow scholars? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Think it really forces us to think about something that we often don’t think about. So in relation to Africa, the word shadow is the most common analogy that’s used to describe Africa, “in the shadow of”, “the shadows of this.” It’s always in the shadows. And I think that I became really interested in this concept of the shadow, because in Swahili there is no word for shadow is something that doesn’t exist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So from the moment you say that something is a shadow, basically what you’re saying is that it doesn’t exist in the world. And as the writers in Kenya themselves do, you could say it’s a support agency. You could use any number of different words for it, but to use it and to say that they’re shadow scholars, I think is something that’s forcing us to say, are these people real? Are they visible from whose perspective? And use the words to really question their position in the world and how they want to be seen in the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Eloise again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You just look at what media are saying about these people and how they’re discussing it and how it’s being discussed in the mainstream, right? And, you know, they’re being called these cancers that are brick by brick, breaking down um the sort of legitimacy of education. Like, the language is so xenophobic. Their identity was being hijacked and used in these really derogatory terms. And so that was something as well that really mindful throughout, like, how do we engage with them directly and have this story told from their perspective, but also like very much more on their terms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A review of studies found that nearly 16% of students admitted to contract cheating between 2014 and 2018. Extrapolated globally, that’s over 30 million students. The stats that we do have about contract cheating are likely skewed because they rely on students to self-report on their own cheating habits. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altogether, Eloise said it’s a $15 billion industry. There are about 40,000 writers just in Nairobi, Kenya’s capital. That number fluctuates based on demand. Patricia said that during the end of the semester, when students are scrambling to turn in work, the number of writers might double. And is this an industry concentrated in Kenya, is it unique to Kenya, or does it manifest elsewhere in the Global South? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah it definitely does. When we talk to other academics who are looking into this, Dr Thomas Lancaster, who appears in the film, he specifically said there isn’t a country or university in the world where we don’t think that this is going on. It just so happens that Kenya is the hot spot, the global hot spot, where the greatest number of people are doing this work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kenya is a hotspot, because it’s an English speaking country with a strong education system and a high adult literacy rate. But at the same time, there aren’t many career opportunities for young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s really worth saying that this industry has always existed. It’s actually nothing new insofar as there has always been people who have benefited from having other people write their work and do their work for them. What’s new now is the scale of the industry and the geography of the industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for example, we know that increasingly we’re getting so many of these kind of hidden figures stories. We’re hearing about, you know, women, we’re hearing about African-American, we’re hearing about gay and queer people who have propped up other people who’ve gone on to claim qualifications or claim inventions on their behalf because they were marginalized in history. What’s happened is as this has become harder and harder to actually do without scrutiny in the Global North, it’s shifted to locations that have been made invisible and that we were all invested in making this place as invisible, and also, because of technology, we can have this happen on a scale it’s never happened before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok. Let’s recap how this process works from students’ perspectives. A lot of these essay writing services advertise all over Instagram and TikTok. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Influencer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually paid someone, I paid three people to write my essays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or they have excellent SEO. So if you Google “write a paper fast”, they’ll be at the very top of your results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Influencer 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the fastest ways to meet your essay deadline while using a paper writing service is to choose one that offers a quick turnaround time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once you settle on a site, you pick your subject and the grade you want and a page count. These sites might charge something like $8 per page, but charge more for more specialized topics like engineering or medicine. An undergrad literature essay, for example, will be significantly cheaper than a doctorate-level thesis. When you put your order in, you set a deadline, which could be anything from six months to six hours. For the shadow scholars in Kenya, the writers behind these papers, it’s all about response time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The thing that really fascinated me about the writers were there was a level of psychology that was involved actually. Um, you know, they would often set their alarms and their clocks to be up at certain times because they knew that’s when students would start to panic, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they know that, you know, in the UK, if I have a deadline for tomorrow, I might maybe have a look at it, but by about 10 o’clock, I’m starting to get tired. I know I’m not going to get this thing done. That’s when I’m starting to look online for help. So they know, okay, around, you know, one o’clock, two o’ clock in the morning Kenya time, I need to be up because that’s when somebody’s gonna be jumping in online to get help. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the students who hire these services are very privileged. They’re even wealthy enough to hire shadow scholars for every university assignment up until graduation. And they develop relationships with the writers too. One of the Kenyan writers profiled in the documentary, Chege, had worked for the same student for years and through that was able to buy a car and pay for his sister to attend university. These dynamics are complex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s really easy to imagine a world where the writers are quite derogatory about the students or they think badly of them or they speak about them in negative terms. I think one of the things that was really surprising for me was how much empathy sometimes they had with the students right and how they really genuinely saw themselves as trying to help these students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think their empathy was really important in terms of how we then managed the story because it’s really easy to paint a picture of good guys and bad guys and those guys are terrible and these guys are great, but actually we needed a much more nuanced story about the students themselves as people who we wouldn’t necessarily use the word victims, but certainly weren’t necessarily always winning in this system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The students hiring these writers have to have a certain level of access to resources to be able to do it at all. But the majority of them are not that rich. They’ll do most of their semester’s work by themselves and will hire shadow scholars as a last resort. Here’s Eloise again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there’s a student who appears in the film called Kate, who talks about just how incredibly competitive it is at university. And once you understand that everyone’s cheating, it becomes almost like a zero sum game where if you aren’t cheating, then are you gonna be left behind if you aren’t getting someone else to do the work for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The film shows Kate, overwhelmed, turning to an essay writing agency. But she doesn’t have the $300 to pay for her final paper. So she turns to the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone is so entwined by technology. Like we had Kate, who cannot afford to pay for the essay and then sells nudes online. But the fact is that in this kind of mechanism of like progress, like she’s both someone who was like a consumer and a trader in it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you describe any of the essay writers you profiled? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shadows that we profiled were um young students who had then got on to graduate. So the point at which we met them and we spent four years filming with them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the writers in the film are in their early to late 20s. There’s Mercy, a single mother who has a day job, but stays up late writing essays as a side gig. There’s Atticus, who specializes in technical writing for math and engineering classes. And then there’s Chege, the writer who was able to send his sister to university while being forced to put his own educational dreams on hold. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the things I suppose I was really interested in focusing on was that after university life, like what is that kind of moment where everything should be great, you get the job of your dreams and actually what we found were a number of people who then ended up finding themselves in this industry for a long time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eloise said that writers only get about 30% of the fee. The agency takes the rest. Not only are they underpaid, but they also can’t claim any credit for the work that they’re doing. They can’t use any of this experience to apply to universities themselves, especially not graduate programs, because they’re helping students cheat. This industry keeps ghost writers in the shadows. Let’s talk about the cost of anonymity in a new tab. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. The cost of anonymity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this work is uncredited. Can you talk about how that anonymity puts the writers at a disadvantage? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What you just see is that the writers are doing all of this work, they’re gaining the knowledge, they were really proud to be acquiring so much knowledge, they really saw that as a value to them, you know. But it doesn’t mean that they’re able to add it to their CV, it doesn’t mean that they are able to get into overseas universities to do a master’s degree, even though they might have been supplying the work for years to students who are going to those institutions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like presently there’s not a single university in Australia, for example, who would accept an undergraduate degree from Kenya to enter into a master’s program. And yet, they are probably third on the list as recipients of academic writing work from authors in Kenya who have been paid to do it on behalf of the students who are there. They are the ghosts in the cyber wars of these institutions, but they’re never being allowed in through the front door. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patricia, I’m hoping you could answer this next question, but is there any stigma against being a fake essay writer? I mean, how do academic institutions see the role of the shadow scholar? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There isn’t a world that they can be in at the moment as themselves that would give them credit for all of the things that they’ve done. And so the film is really a kind of way to try to ensure that some level of that happens for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s another complication here, too. These academic cheating services are illegal in the UK, New Zealand, Australia, and some American states. In the UK, offering these services is actually a criminal offense. Because of that, the documentary uses deepfake technology on some of its interview subjects to conceal their identities and avoid criminalizing them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But while the film has taken steps to anonymize these writers, essay mill sites themselves aren’t exactly secure. The writers’ legal names and photo IDs, the students’ final papers. All of this can be accessed fairly easily by bad actors. This digital paper trail could come back to haunt both students and writers, especially as more governments move to ban these services. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think for the writers, we’re not sure how it’s going to affect their future careers, but actually they’ve got very short to medium term needs that there’s no other way for them to meet them, you know. So they have to do this writing really and many of them actually try at the same time to do other work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, as we’ve mentioned with Australia, if they continue to see them as criminals and one of these writers, for example, wants to take up qualifications or have an opportunity in Australia, I don’t know what that will mean in terms of their identity being leaked or something like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I just think on like an emotional level and a kind of lived experience level, like having this digital footprint where you made a decision when you were hard up and you were like in your 20s maybe or in your late teens, being there and being like on record and traceable when you have absolutely no idea, it’s just not something that anyone would want and anyone would sign up for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea that like you’re susceptible to any kind of blackmail, like should you find yourself in like public office. And I think that’s on both sides. I think like a very real possibility. And so I think anyone who’s like holding large swathes of data, you know, they might not be nefarious themselves but they might be selling it on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patricia and Eloise have been following these shadow scholars for over four years. In that time, generative AI tools have rapidly become more sophisticated and accessible. Academic cheating is now as easy as a single click and it costs next to nothing. So is anyone still using essay writing services? What happens to the shadow scholars, whose livelihoods depend on essay writing, if students don’t have to pay a human to cheat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one last tab. Shadow Scholars and AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the years that the artificial intelligence industry was exploding, Eloise had been keeping tabs on a Facebook group for shadow scholars from all over the world. When she first started working on the film in 2020, it had about 60,000 members. By the time production was over, three years later, that number had roughly tripled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you could see how this industry was growing. But that acted as this kind of like town crier, like forum for understanding what people were feeling. And what people felt was in the first instance, like, “Oh God, we are totally over. Like this is the end of the industry. We were already being made invisible and now people are gonna go to this service that’s cheaper and we’re gonna be totally wiped out.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the end, as always, again, what is totally part of this kind of liberatory ideology that seems to sit within it is that people saying, “Well, actually, no, it’s not. It’s not perfect. We have this knowledge, we’ve been doing this for a long time.” And whilst their incomes were definitely and have definitely been impacted by the advent of AI, there was really this pushback that was happening that said, “Actually when you have the knowledge at the source, and you’re able to check it, the quality will be superior.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I wonder if Patricia, you can talk much more about like testing and the way that algorithms are like totally detectable by universities. And I think we’ve all become really accustomed to like the long dash. Like when I see that in a reply from someone…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is tragic for me as a writer. I love the em dash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There isn’t a uniform position by universities, right? So some universities are like, okay, if you’ve got particular needs, you can use AI. Other people are like under no circumstances do you use AI, and so the writers have been really able to exploit that lack of uniform position as part of a sales tactic to say, “Look, if use AI send your work to us, we will humanize it. We will remove all traces that you’ve had AI and we’ll send it back to you at a cost. It’ll cost you more because actually it requires more expertise to be able to spot all the falsifications, to spot the ways that AI hallucinates, to check all the references. We will do that detailed work and we will send it to you if you want to use AI. Or we can continue to do something bespoke for you.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it has definitely shaped the way that they work because they’re getting many more students who are sending them things that they’ve used AI and said, “Can you make this look like I haven’t used AI,” and are charging them for that. Yet again, we’re in this world where we would rather think that AI has absolutely no human involvement than actually acknowledge the fact that it requires enormous amounts of human capital to make it happen in the first place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that was the most interesting takeaway for me being a tech reporter watching the film was seeing the way that this industry of people adapted. Like Patricia said, this work is even more specialized than just writing the essay to make it sound human and to spot these kind of inconsistencies that only exist with AI. But at the same time, it seems to push them further into the shadows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it really does. I think you’ve kind of hit on something that we found in this film. There was this perpetual loop that would happen where just at the moment you think there is a shift or reckoning that allows them to be seen and to be acknowledged, like there is another systemic move that further pushes them into the background. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think AI is kind of coalesces into two things, doesn’t it? It’s like, one, people would rather think that like robots and computers are going to like take over the world and they’re like so smart. But what it does is it comes up against an innate prejudice where people for years have thought that the “Africans” need to, and I use that like term because you know that’s how people use it in this sweeping term, like that they need to be educated, they need be taught how to be civilized, and actually what too many imaginations cannot hold is the reality that there are millions of educated people in the fastest growing youth population on the planet who are having access to technology that allows them to share their education. That was an inheritance of colonial settlements and imposed education systems. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so all of these things are totally intertwined. The prejudice that people think that they couldn’t be that smart to begin with and the prejudice that then denies when proof is beyond needing any more evidence that it still finds a way to deny them of this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many shadow scholars have pivoted to editing and humanizing AI-generated writing. But AI itself keeps advancing. There are now countless AI tools that claim to be able to humanize other AI-generated text in order to bypass AI detection tools. Right now, those tools still don’t compare to actual human-written work. But at some point in the future, will shadow scholars become redundant? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they will continue to adapt in ways that we haven’t even thought about yet, because we haven t been able to predict how they’ve lasted this long in the face of all of these different challenges. So, as long as there is demand, there will be these writers and I think there will continue be demand because institutions need to find ways to judge who is good or who isn’t good. And so I think that’s an important thing for us to think about. Is it possible that we can have a world where these qualifications start to mean something different, right, and who is good or not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Shadow scholars have been fighting for recognition long before AI was a problem. Even though the documentary conceals individual writers’ identities, Eloise hopes that it at least makes more people aware of the industry. It’s not mysterious criminals powering essay mills, but real writers who are forced into the shadows because they don’t have the same opportunities as students in the global North.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This documentary is also a kind of reckoning for academia. What does it mean for these institutions, if they’re awarding degrees and certifications to people who didn’t actually do the work to get them? And the people who did do the work are prevented from entering those very institutions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’ll look at how this is playing out with younger students as we dive into how teachers are handling AI in their classrooms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The documentary, “The Shadow Scholars,” hits UK theaters on September 18th. For updates on this and further screenings, follow @ShadowScholarsFilm on Instagram. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Our audio engineer is Brendan Willard. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsay is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? Your support is so important, especially in these \u003cem>unprecedented times\u003c/em>. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to Donate.KQED.org/podcasts!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” And join our Discord — we’re in the Close All Tabs channel at Discord.gg/KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thousands of writers in Kenya make their living ghostwriting academic papers for wealthy Western students. It’s an industry known as “contract cheating” or “essay mills,” and is the subject of a new documentary, “The Shadow Scholars.” Directed by Eloise King, the film follows Kenyan-born Oxford Professor Patricia Kingori as she investigates this hidden industry and seeks to understand the essay writers working in the shadows of the educational system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan talks with Patricia and Eloise about the world of academic cheating, and how these writers are adapting to a world in which AI-generated essays are just a click away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1401351139\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.some.ox.ac.uk/our-people/patricia-kingori/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patricia Kingori\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of global health ethics at the University of Oxford\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/challenge/?next=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instagram.com%2Felloweezee%2F%3Fhl%3Den%26__coig_challenged%3D1#\">Eloise King\u003c/a>, director of “The Shadow Scholars”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLZCTERhImw\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Shadow Scholars \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Directed by Eloise King \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354713537_Kenya's_Fake_Essay_Writers_and_the_Light_they_Shine_on_Assumptions_of_Shadows_in_Knowledge_Production/citation/download\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kenya’s “Fake Essay” Writers and the Light they Shine on Assumptions of Shadows in Knowledge Production\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Patricia Kingori, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Journal of African Cultural Studies \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/ghostwriting-essays-american-college-students-lucrative-profession-kenya-a9096461.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How writing essays for American students has become a lucrative profession overseas\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Farah Stockman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Independent \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2025/05/14/georgia-bans-commercial-cheating-services/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia Bans Commercial Cheating Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Derek Newton, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fastcompany.com/90951343/ai-essays-advertising-on-meta-and-tiktok\">Companies that use AI to help you cheat at school are thriving on TikTok and Meta\u003c/a> — Chris Stokel-Walker, \u003ci>Fast Company\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Imagine you’re a college student. The end of the semester is just around the corner. It’s the middle of finals week and you have to study for an exam, finish a presentation and turn in a research paper all within the next 12 hours. Unfortunately, you’ve been procrastinating and you only have time to finish two of those three things. You could use a tool like Chat GPT, but you don’t wanna get caught using AI. So you open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the search bar, you type, essay… writer… fast. Enter. Dozens of results pop up. Websites with generic-sounding names, but sleek, friendly designs. They promise high-quality, custom essays delivered in days, or even hours. All you have to do is run through a few drop-down menus and pick what you need, and then enter your credit card number. You’ve just stepped into an industry known as “contract cheating,” better known as essay mills. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the subject of a new documentary, The Shadow Scholars, which just had its North American premiere at Tribeca Film Festival. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Shadow Scholars Trailer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve all grown up being told that education empowers us. And if you study at school, then you’re going to get the rewards. I’m going to shine a light on the world’s billion-dollar secret. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It looks at who the people are on the other side of that screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day I was invited to go along to a lecture at the Oxford Internet Institute and they were talking about these online laborers. And then they started talking about different parts of the world and where different people in different parts of the worlds use the internet for work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Patricia Kingori, a Kenyan-born UK-based sociologist. In 2021, she became the youngest Black professor at the University of Oxford. She’s also one of the main subjects of the film. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So then they described Kenya and said, you know, there is this writing and translation work, which is a kind of euphemism for the fake essay industry. And I just became really interested in, well, who are these people? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This topic is personal for Patricia. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if you have had your thesis stolen, as I have had the ideas from my thesis stolen, you immediately start to believe that an industry where people do benefit from the intellect of others exists, right? I think really allowed me to start from a presumption of the fact that they exist rather than I think where many people have not had this experience might start, which is, well, how can that be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just after attending the lecture, Patricia caught up with filmmaker Eloise King, who ended up directing the documentary. They had known each other for years, and Patricia casually mentioned the so-called fake essay industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My immediate reaction was how do real people write fake essays? And I was immediately obsessed. I think one of the things that we share is a kind of an inquisitiveness that goes really deep once it’s sort of implanted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, Eloise and Patricia, dug deeper. What they found was a booming, but mostly hidden industry of writers centered in Kenya, who are paid to produce academic work for others. Patricia wrote about it in 2021 in the Journal of African Culture Studies. The name “shadow scholars” comes from author Dave Tomar, who wrote about his own experience as an academic ghostwriter in his 2012 memoir. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The film, “The Shadow Scholars”, is less about the ethics of cheating and more about the unseen labor involved. The documentary focuses on the shadow scholars based in Kenya, which is a major hub for the fake essay industry. They’re often hired by students in the US, the UK, and Australia. Here’s Patricia in the film. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So of all of the online labor work that’s going on in Kenya, 72% of that… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Professor Vili Lehdonvirta: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is engaged in writing and translation work. Actually, we know it’s just writing essays for students in global North universities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, Patricia presenting these findings really turned on a light for me because what we had was this really difficult to prove, you know, lived experience of like global majority but like marginalized communities within education. And so I just became really excited with the idea that we could ask more questions and find out if this flow of information was really kind of fueling institutions around the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just undergrad essays. Shadow scholars are also hired to write entire PhD dissertations. They do all of the work, but someone else gets the credit, the qualifications, and eventually the jobs. The shadow scholars, meanwhile, aren’t afforded the same opportunities. So who are these shadow scholars? How does this exchange work? And what is the generative AI boom doing to this industry that relies on human intellectual labor? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We sat down with Patricia and Eloise to learn about how this industry works and shine some light on the people at the center of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab. Who are the shadow scholars? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even the word fake essay, like that’s such a loaded phrase where, you know, the premise may be fake, but the person writing it is real, the content is real, it is a real academic work. Why frame this as shadow scholars? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Think it really forces us to think about something that we often don’t think about. So in relation to Africa, the word shadow is the most common analogy that’s used to describe Africa, “in the shadow of”, “the shadows of this.” It’s always in the shadows. And I think that I became really interested in this concept of the shadow, because in Swahili there is no word for shadow is something that doesn’t exist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So from the moment you say that something is a shadow, basically what you’re saying is that it doesn’t exist in the world. And as the writers in Kenya themselves do, you could say it’s a support agency. You could use any number of different words for it, but to use it and to say that they’re shadow scholars, I think is something that’s forcing us to say, are these people real? Are they visible from whose perspective? And use the words to really question their position in the world and how they want to be seen in the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Eloise again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You just look at what media are saying about these people and how they’re discussing it and how it’s being discussed in the mainstream, right? And, you know, they’re being called these cancers that are brick by brick, breaking down um the sort of legitimacy of education. Like, the language is so xenophobic. Their identity was being hijacked and used in these really derogatory terms. And so that was something as well that really mindful throughout, like, how do we engage with them directly and have this story told from their perspective, but also like very much more on their terms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A review of studies found that nearly 16% of students admitted to contract cheating between 2014 and 2018. Extrapolated globally, that’s over 30 million students. The stats that we do have about contract cheating are likely skewed because they rely on students to self-report on their own cheating habits. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altogether, Eloise said it’s a $15 billion industry. There are about 40,000 writers just in Nairobi, Kenya’s capital. That number fluctuates based on demand. Patricia said that during the end of the semester, when students are scrambling to turn in work, the number of writers might double. And is this an industry concentrated in Kenya, is it unique to Kenya, or does it manifest elsewhere in the Global South? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah it definitely does. When we talk to other academics who are looking into this, Dr Thomas Lancaster, who appears in the film, he specifically said there isn’t a country or university in the world where we don’t think that this is going on. It just so happens that Kenya is the hot spot, the global hot spot, where the greatest number of people are doing this work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kenya is a hotspot, because it’s an English speaking country with a strong education system and a high adult literacy rate. But at the same time, there aren’t many career opportunities for young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s really worth saying that this industry has always existed. It’s actually nothing new insofar as there has always been people who have benefited from having other people write their work and do their work for them. What’s new now is the scale of the industry and the geography of the industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for example, we know that increasingly we’re getting so many of these kind of hidden figures stories. We’re hearing about, you know, women, we’re hearing about African-American, we’re hearing about gay and queer people who have propped up other people who’ve gone on to claim qualifications or claim inventions on their behalf because they were marginalized in history. What’s happened is as this has become harder and harder to actually do without scrutiny in the Global North, it’s shifted to locations that have been made invisible and that we were all invested in making this place as invisible, and also, because of technology, we can have this happen on a scale it’s never happened before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok. Let’s recap how this process works from students’ perspectives. A lot of these essay writing services advertise all over Instagram and TikTok. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Influencer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually paid someone, I paid three people to write my essays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or they have excellent SEO. So if you Google “write a paper fast”, they’ll be at the very top of your results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Influencer 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the fastest ways to meet your essay deadline while using a paper writing service is to choose one that offers a quick turnaround time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once you settle on a site, you pick your subject and the grade you want and a page count. These sites might charge something like $8 per page, but charge more for more specialized topics like engineering or medicine. An undergrad literature essay, for example, will be significantly cheaper than a doctorate-level thesis. When you put your order in, you set a deadline, which could be anything from six months to six hours. For the shadow scholars in Kenya, the writers behind these papers, it’s all about response time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The thing that really fascinated me about the writers were there was a level of psychology that was involved actually. Um, you know, they would often set their alarms and their clocks to be up at certain times because they knew that’s when students would start to panic, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they know that, you know, in the UK, if I have a deadline for tomorrow, I might maybe have a look at it, but by about 10 o’clock, I’m starting to get tired. I know I’m not going to get this thing done. That’s when I’m starting to look online for help. So they know, okay, around, you know, one o’clock, two o’ clock in the morning Kenya time, I need to be up because that’s when somebody’s gonna be jumping in online to get help. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the students who hire these services are very privileged. They’re even wealthy enough to hire shadow scholars for every university assignment up until graduation. And they develop relationships with the writers too. One of the Kenyan writers profiled in the documentary, Chege, had worked for the same student for years and through that was able to buy a car and pay for his sister to attend university. These dynamics are complex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s really easy to imagine a world where the writers are quite derogatory about the students or they think badly of them or they speak about them in negative terms. I think one of the things that was really surprising for me was how much empathy sometimes they had with the students right and how they really genuinely saw themselves as trying to help these students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think their empathy was really important in terms of how we then managed the story because it’s really easy to paint a picture of good guys and bad guys and those guys are terrible and these guys are great, but actually we needed a much more nuanced story about the students themselves as people who we wouldn’t necessarily use the word victims, but certainly weren’t necessarily always winning in this system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The students hiring these writers have to have a certain level of access to resources to be able to do it at all. But the majority of them are not that rich. They’ll do most of their semester’s work by themselves and will hire shadow scholars as a last resort. Here’s Eloise again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there’s a student who appears in the film called Kate, who talks about just how incredibly competitive it is at university. And once you understand that everyone’s cheating, it becomes almost like a zero sum game where if you aren’t cheating, then are you gonna be left behind if you aren’t getting someone else to do the work for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The film shows Kate, overwhelmed, turning to an essay writing agency. But she doesn’t have the $300 to pay for her final paper. So she turns to the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone is so entwined by technology. Like we had Kate, who cannot afford to pay for the essay and then sells nudes online. But the fact is that in this kind of mechanism of like progress, like she’s both someone who was like a consumer and a trader in it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you describe any of the essay writers you profiled? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shadows that we profiled were um young students who had then got on to graduate. So the point at which we met them and we spent four years filming with them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the writers in the film are in their early to late 20s. There’s Mercy, a single mother who has a day job, but stays up late writing essays as a side gig. There’s Atticus, who specializes in technical writing for math and engineering classes. And then there’s Chege, the writer who was able to send his sister to university while being forced to put his own educational dreams on hold. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the things I suppose I was really interested in focusing on was that after university life, like what is that kind of moment where everything should be great, you get the job of your dreams and actually what we found were a number of people who then ended up finding themselves in this industry for a long time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eloise said that writers only get about 30% of the fee. The agency takes the rest. Not only are they underpaid, but they also can’t claim any credit for the work that they’re doing. They can’t use any of this experience to apply to universities themselves, especially not graduate programs, because they’re helping students cheat. This industry keeps ghost writers in the shadows. Let’s talk about the cost of anonymity in a new tab. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. The cost of anonymity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this work is uncredited. Can you talk about how that anonymity puts the writers at a disadvantage? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What you just see is that the writers are doing all of this work, they’re gaining the knowledge, they were really proud to be acquiring so much knowledge, they really saw that as a value to them, you know. But it doesn’t mean that they’re able to add it to their CV, it doesn’t mean that they are able to get into overseas universities to do a master’s degree, even though they might have been supplying the work for years to students who are going to those institutions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like presently there’s not a single university in Australia, for example, who would accept an undergraduate degree from Kenya to enter into a master’s program. And yet, they are probably third on the list as recipients of academic writing work from authors in Kenya who have been paid to do it on behalf of the students who are there. They are the ghosts in the cyber wars of these institutions, but they’re never being allowed in through the front door. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patricia, I’m hoping you could answer this next question, but is there any stigma against being a fake essay writer? I mean, how do academic institutions see the role of the shadow scholar? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There isn’t a world that they can be in at the moment as themselves that would give them credit for all of the things that they’ve done. And so the film is really a kind of way to try to ensure that some level of that happens for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s another complication here, too. These academic cheating services are illegal in the UK, New Zealand, Australia, and some American states. In the UK, offering these services is actually a criminal offense. Because of that, the documentary uses deepfake technology on some of its interview subjects to conceal their identities and avoid criminalizing them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But while the film has taken steps to anonymize these writers, essay mill sites themselves aren’t exactly secure. The writers’ legal names and photo IDs, the students’ final papers. All of this can be accessed fairly easily by bad actors. This digital paper trail could come back to haunt both students and writers, especially as more governments move to ban these services. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think for the writers, we’re not sure how it’s going to affect their future careers, but actually they’ve got very short to medium term needs that there’s no other way for them to meet them, you know. So they have to do this writing really and many of them actually try at the same time to do other work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, as we’ve mentioned with Australia, if they continue to see them as criminals and one of these writers, for example, wants to take up qualifications or have an opportunity in Australia, I don’t know what that will mean in terms of their identity being leaked or something like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I just think on like an emotional level and a kind of lived experience level, like having this digital footprint where you made a decision when you were hard up and you were like in your 20s maybe or in your late teens, being there and being like on record and traceable when you have absolutely no idea, it’s just not something that anyone would want and anyone would sign up for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea that like you’re susceptible to any kind of blackmail, like should you find yourself in like public office. And I think that’s on both sides. I think like a very real possibility. And so I think anyone who’s like holding large swathes of data, you know, they might not be nefarious themselves but they might be selling it on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patricia and Eloise have been following these shadow scholars for over four years. In that time, generative AI tools have rapidly become more sophisticated and accessible. Academic cheating is now as easy as a single click and it costs next to nothing. So is anyone still using essay writing services? What happens to the shadow scholars, whose livelihoods depend on essay writing, if students don’t have to pay a human to cheat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one last tab. Shadow Scholars and AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the years that the artificial intelligence industry was exploding, Eloise had been keeping tabs on a Facebook group for shadow scholars from all over the world. When she first started working on the film in 2020, it had about 60,000 members. By the time production was over, three years later, that number had roughly tripled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you could see how this industry was growing. But that acted as this kind of like town crier, like forum for understanding what people were feeling. And what people felt was in the first instance, like, “Oh God, we are totally over. Like this is the end of the industry. We were already being made invisible and now people are gonna go to this service that’s cheaper and we’re gonna be totally wiped out.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the end, as always, again, what is totally part of this kind of liberatory ideology that seems to sit within it is that people saying, “Well, actually, no, it’s not. It’s not perfect. We have this knowledge, we’ve been doing this for a long time.” And whilst their incomes were definitely and have definitely been impacted by the advent of AI, there was really this pushback that was happening that said, “Actually when you have the knowledge at the source, and you’re able to check it, the quality will be superior.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I wonder if Patricia, you can talk much more about like testing and the way that algorithms are like totally detectable by universities. And I think we’ve all become really accustomed to like the long dash. Like when I see that in a reply from someone…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is tragic for me as a writer. I love the em dash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There isn’t a uniform position by universities, right? So some universities are like, okay, if you’ve got particular needs, you can use AI. Other people are like under no circumstances do you use AI, and so the writers have been really able to exploit that lack of uniform position as part of a sales tactic to say, “Look, if use AI send your work to us, we will humanize it. We will remove all traces that you’ve had AI and we’ll send it back to you at a cost. It’ll cost you more because actually it requires more expertise to be able to spot all the falsifications, to spot the ways that AI hallucinates, to check all the references. We will do that detailed work and we will send it to you if you want to use AI. Or we can continue to do something bespoke for you.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it has definitely shaped the way that they work because they’re getting many more students who are sending them things that they’ve used AI and said, “Can you make this look like I haven’t used AI,” and are charging them for that. Yet again, we’re in this world where we would rather think that AI has absolutely no human involvement than actually acknowledge the fact that it requires enormous amounts of human capital to make it happen in the first place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that was the most interesting takeaway for me being a tech reporter watching the film was seeing the way that this industry of people adapted. Like Patricia said, this work is even more specialized than just writing the essay to make it sound human and to spot these kind of inconsistencies that only exist with AI. But at the same time, it seems to push them further into the shadows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eloise King:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it really does. I think you’ve kind of hit on something that we found in this film. There was this perpetual loop that would happen where just at the moment you think there is a shift or reckoning that allows them to be seen and to be acknowledged, like there is another systemic move that further pushes them into the background. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think AI is kind of coalesces into two things, doesn’t it? It’s like, one, people would rather think that like robots and computers are going to like take over the world and they’re like so smart. But what it does is it comes up against an innate prejudice where people for years have thought that the “Africans” need to, and I use that like term because you know that’s how people use it in this sweeping term, like that they need to be educated, they need be taught how to be civilized, and actually what too many imaginations cannot hold is the reality that there are millions of educated people in the fastest growing youth population on the planet who are having access to technology that allows them to share their education. That was an inheritance of colonial settlements and imposed education systems. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so all of these things are totally intertwined. The prejudice that people think that they couldn’t be that smart to begin with and the prejudice that then denies when proof is beyond needing any more evidence that it still finds a way to deny them of this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many shadow scholars have pivoted to editing and humanizing AI-generated writing. But AI itself keeps advancing. There are now countless AI tools that claim to be able to humanize other AI-generated text in order to bypass AI detection tools. Right now, those tools still don’t compare to actual human-written work. But at some point in the future, will shadow scholars become redundant? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patricia Kingori:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they will continue to adapt in ways that we haven’t even thought about yet, because we haven t been able to predict how they’ve lasted this long in the face of all of these different challenges. So, as long as there is demand, there will be these writers and I think there will continue be demand because institutions need to find ways to judge who is good or who isn’t good. And so I think that’s an important thing for us to think about. Is it possible that we can have a world where these qualifications start to mean something different, right, and who is good or not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Shadow scholars have been fighting for recognition long before AI was a problem. Even though the documentary conceals individual writers’ identities, Eloise hopes that it at least makes more people aware of the industry. It’s not mysterious criminals powering essay mills, but real writers who are forced into the shadows because they don’t have the same opportunities as students in the global North.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This documentary is also a kind of reckoning for academia. What does it mean for these institutions, if they’re awarding degrees and certifications to people who didn’t actually do the work to get them? And the people who did do the work are prevented from entering those very institutions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’ll look at how this is playing out with younger students as we dive into how teachers are handling AI in their classrooms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The documentary, “The Shadow Scholars,” hits UK theaters on September 18th. For updates on this and further screenings, follow @ShadowScholarsFilm on Instagram. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Our audio engineer is Brendan Willard. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsay is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? Your support is so important, especially in these \u003cem>unprecedented times\u003c/em>. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to Donate.KQED.org/podcasts!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” And join our Discord — we’re in the Close All Tabs channel at Discord.gg/KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "newsoms-tightrope-walk-between-ai-regulation-and-silicon-valley-cash",
"title": "Newsom’s Tightrope Walk Between AI Regulation and Silicon Valley Cash",
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"headTitle": "Newsom’s Tightrope Walk Between AI Regulation and Silicon Valley Cash | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>As Gov. Gavin Newsom eyes a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12043766/newsom-tries-to-find-political-footing-in-clash-with-trump\">potential run for the White House\u003c/a>, he faces a political challenge on the homefront. Roughly 30 AI-related bills are moving through the state Legislature in the last weeks of this legislative session, and it’s estimated a dozen or so will land on Newsom’s desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does he veto all or most of them to mollify Silicon Valley donors? Or does he defy President Donald Trump’s industry-friendly light touch and model a tougher state stance on regulation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At an Aug. 7 event announcing \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12051433/california-teams-with-google-microsoft-ibm-adobe-to-prepare-students-for-ai-era\">AI training partnerships\u003c/a> with Adobe, Google, IBM and Microsoft, Newsom told reporters he is trying to establish a middle ground that provides guardrails for public safety without squelching innovation: “We’ve led in AI innovation, and we’ve led in AI regulation, but we’re trying to find a balance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom noted that, even though he vetoed the most \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000892/ai-safety-testing-bill-heads-for-a-floor-vote-in-sacramento-taking-heavy-fire-from-silicon-valley\">controversial bill\u003c/a> of the last legislative session, he ultimately signed 18 AI-related bills into law, addressing everything from training data transparency to deepfakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Industry voices, chief among them OpenAI’s Chief Global Affairs Officer Chris Lehane, continue to lobby against binding regulation at all levels of government. Lehane often appears to be speaking to California in his public posts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11802216\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11802216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut.jpg\" alt=\"Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan says local jurisdictions need the power to stop a wildfire disaster before it starts. The assemblymember and other state lawmakers announced a bill to expand enforcement actions against PG&E and other utilities on February, 18, 2020.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1832x1374.jpg 1832w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1376x1032.jpg 1376w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1044x783.jpg 1044w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-632x474.jpg 632w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-536x402.jpg 536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan on Feb. 18, 2020. \u003ccite>(Eli Walsh/Bay City News)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Imagine how hard it would have been for the US to win the Space Race if California’s aerospace and tech industries got tangled up in state-by-state regulations impeding the innovation of transistor technology,” Lehane wrote pointedly on \u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7361704760334274560/\">LinkedIn\u003c/a> last week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if Silicon Valley lobbyists see the industry in a “space race” against foreign adversaries, it’s not clear whether the general public shares that sense of urgency for technological advancement at any cost. An \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/newsletters/axios-ai-plus-62025700-399b-11f0-b37f-b73dfdd12f1d\">Axios/Harris poll\u003c/a> released in early June 2025 showed strong majorities of Americans across all age groups want companies to take AI development slowly to “get it right the first time, even if that delays breakthroughs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Signing some of the AI bills that make it to his desk could also provide Newsom with an opportunity to stick a thumb in the eye of Trump. The challenge for Newsom is choosing which of the roughly 30 bills making their way through Sacramento are least likely to upset his supporters in Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11998817/ai-regulation-still-in-the-mix-as-california-legislature-returns-to-session\">Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, \u003c/a>D-Orinda, could be considered the foremost advocate for AI regulation this legislative session, having authored six still in play:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 222\u003c/strong> — Would require data centers that power AI to disclose how much water and electricity they use, so the public can see their environmental footprint.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 412\u003c/strong> — Would require AI developers to disclose when copyrighted works were used to train their models and give rights holders a way to check and challenge that use.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 621\u003c/strong> — Would let victims, including minors, sue creators and facilitators of non-consensual deepfake sexual material and increase the damages they can collect.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1018\u003c/strong> — Would regulate how AI-driven decision systems are developed, tested, disclosed, audited, and appealed when used to make consequential decisions about people.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1064\u003c/strong> — Would ban AI chatbots from manipulating children into forming emotional attachments or harvesting their personal and biometric data.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1405\u003c/strong> — Would require AI auditors to enroll with the state, follow conflict-of-interest and reporting rules, and create a system for the public to report auditor misconduct starting in 2027.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>When pressed to pick a personal favorite on the list, Bauer-Kahan chose \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1064\">AB 1064\u003c/a>, the Leading Ethical AI Development for Kids Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have teenage children. You know, I live it every day,” Bauer-Kahan said. “We have to step in and make sure these companies are doing right by our children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m driven mostly as a mother, and I think that Gov. Newsom is driven as a father,” she said. “You know, his children are going to grow up in the AI age, as are mine. And I think he wants a safe environment, and I’m hopeful that will lead him to find balance between what industry needs and what the public needs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005278\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2121px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005278\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524.jpg\" alt=\"Close-up female hands with a blue manicure using pink smartphone outdoors.\" width=\"2121\" height=\"1414\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524.jpg 2121w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2121px) 100vw, 2121px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Research shows that about 70% of teens use at least one kind of AI tool. \u003ccite>(Tatiana Meteleva/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Bauer-Kahan said the long game for AI legislation requires a careful effort to define terms so it’s not easy for companies to sidestep the mandate, and to protect mechanisms of enforcement so the law has teeth. For instance, if a child suffers actual harm as a result of the use of a covered product, AB 1064 allows that child, or a parent or guardian, to sue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But industry critics say the bill is misguided and full of issues that could lead to unintended consequences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AB 1064’s definitions are drafted so broadly that they could unintentionally capture almost all chatbot tools, even basic customer service functions, and would require invasive age-verification to maintain functionality … It risks limiting minors’ access to lawful and beneficial AI tools — raising significant First Amendment concerns,” Robert Boykin, executive director of California and the Southwest for the trade group TechNet, wrote in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bill could also spur costly litigation and create substantial regulatory uncertainty, Boykin said.[aside postID=news_12051433 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GavinNewsomAISF1.jpg']But a bill that provides no capacity for individuals to sue is a bill without teeth, according to many who watch Sacramento politics. That is to say, the State Attorney General’s Office has limited budget, people and attention to carry the entire burden of enforcement on its proverbial shoulders, especially when it’s busy pursuing \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/six-months-second-trump-administration-attorney-general-bonta-reports-california\">more than 37 lawsuits\u003c/a> against the second Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After congressional Republicans rejected a push to ban states from regulating artificial intelligence for a decade in the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, Trump appears to have signaled his intent to roll out a backdoor ban with his \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Americas-AI-Action-Plan.pdf\">AI Action Plan\u003c/a>. The executive orders include language like, “AI is far too important to smother in bureaucracy at this early stage, whether at the state or Federal level.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The implied threat: leave off AI regulation or federal funding could be reduced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seemed to be using money as a cudgel, but I’m not sure that will be effective here, or that’s something that really, would bother us, or prevent us in California from moving forward,” state Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker has introduced two AI bills this session. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB243&firstNav=tracking\">SB 243\u003c/a> would require companion chatbots to frequently remind users that it isn’t a person, in order to reduce the risk of emotional manipulation or \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">unhealthy attachment\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB468&firstNav=tracking\">SB 468\u003c/a> requires AI developers to design and disclose their own security measures to protect personal data, subject to state oversight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker, a former businessman, said he works with industry lobbyists to hash out language companies consider feasible, if not unobjectionable. In the case of SB 243, Boykin of TechNet acknowledged Becker’s constructive engagement, adding, “Our goal has always been to narrow some of the sweeping provisions — particularly around the definition of companion chatbots, reporting obligations, and costly third-party audits.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Becker said California lawmakers are also well practiced in battling Silicon Valley lobbyists intent on killing or neutering legislation. “Even before Trump, there [was] a bipartisan effort to preempt our privacy laws here in California. So that’s gonna be a constant fight,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He added that he speaks with people who work in Silicon Valley who tell him they want regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My anecdotal experience is that there’s much more conversation by the people who work at these companies offline, about the potential impact of these technologies, than you’ll hear out of the communications people,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>As Gov. Gavin Newsom eyes a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12043766/newsom-tries-to-find-political-footing-in-clash-with-trump\">potential run for the White House\u003c/a>, he faces a political challenge on the homefront. Roughly 30 AI-related bills are moving through the state Legislature in the last weeks of this legislative session, and it’s estimated a dozen or so will land on Newsom’s desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does he veto all or most of them to mollify Silicon Valley donors? Or does he defy President Donald Trump’s industry-friendly light touch and model a tougher state stance on regulation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At an Aug. 7 event announcing \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12051433/california-teams-with-google-microsoft-ibm-adobe-to-prepare-students-for-ai-era\">AI training partnerships\u003c/a> with Adobe, Google, IBM and Microsoft, Newsom told reporters he is trying to establish a middle ground that provides guardrails for public safety without squelching innovation: “We’ve led in AI innovation, and we’ve led in AI regulation, but we’re trying to find a balance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom noted that, even though he vetoed the most \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000892/ai-safety-testing-bill-heads-for-a-floor-vote-in-sacramento-taking-heavy-fire-from-silicon-valley\">controversial bill\u003c/a> of the last legislative session, he ultimately signed 18 AI-related bills into law, addressing everything from training data transparency to deepfakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Industry voices, chief among them OpenAI’s Chief Global Affairs Officer Chris Lehane, continue to lobby against binding regulation at all levels of government. Lehane often appears to be speaking to California in his public posts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11802216\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11802216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut.jpg\" alt=\"Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan says local jurisdictions need the power to stop a wildfire disaster before it starts. The assemblymember and other state lawmakers announced a bill to expand enforcement actions against PG&E and other utilities on February, 18, 2020.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1832x1374.jpg 1832w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1376x1032.jpg 1376w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1044x783.jpg 1044w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-632x474.jpg 632w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-536x402.jpg 536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan on Feb. 18, 2020. \u003ccite>(Eli Walsh/Bay City News)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Imagine how hard it would have been for the US to win the Space Race if California’s aerospace and tech industries got tangled up in state-by-state regulations impeding the innovation of transistor technology,” Lehane wrote pointedly on \u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7361704760334274560/\">LinkedIn\u003c/a> last week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if Silicon Valley lobbyists see the industry in a “space race” against foreign adversaries, it’s not clear whether the general public shares that sense of urgency for technological advancement at any cost. An \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/newsletters/axios-ai-plus-62025700-399b-11f0-b37f-b73dfdd12f1d\">Axios/Harris poll\u003c/a> released in early June 2025 showed strong majorities of Americans across all age groups want companies to take AI development slowly to “get it right the first time, even if that delays breakthroughs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Signing some of the AI bills that make it to his desk could also provide Newsom with an opportunity to stick a thumb in the eye of Trump. The challenge for Newsom is choosing which of the roughly 30 bills making their way through Sacramento are least likely to upset his supporters in Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11998817/ai-regulation-still-in-the-mix-as-california-legislature-returns-to-session\">Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, \u003c/a>D-Orinda, could be considered the foremost advocate for AI regulation this legislative session, having authored six still in play:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 222\u003c/strong> — Would require data centers that power AI to disclose how much water and electricity they use, so the public can see their environmental footprint.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 412\u003c/strong> — Would require AI developers to disclose when copyrighted works were used to train their models and give rights holders a way to check and challenge that use.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 621\u003c/strong> — Would let victims, including minors, sue creators and facilitators of non-consensual deepfake sexual material and increase the damages they can collect.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1018\u003c/strong> — Would regulate how AI-driven decision systems are developed, tested, disclosed, audited, and appealed when used to make consequential decisions about people.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1064\u003c/strong> — Would ban AI chatbots from manipulating children into forming emotional attachments or harvesting their personal and biometric data.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1405\u003c/strong> — Would require AI auditors to enroll with the state, follow conflict-of-interest and reporting rules, and create a system for the public to report auditor misconduct starting in 2027.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>When pressed to pick a personal favorite on the list, Bauer-Kahan chose \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1064\">AB 1064\u003c/a>, the Leading Ethical AI Development for Kids Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have teenage children. You know, I live it every day,” Bauer-Kahan said. “We have to step in and make sure these companies are doing right by our children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m driven mostly as a mother, and I think that Gov. Newsom is driven as a father,” she said. “You know, his children are going to grow up in the AI age, as are mine. And I think he wants a safe environment, and I’m hopeful that will lead him to find balance between what industry needs and what the public needs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005278\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2121px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005278\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524.jpg\" alt=\"Close-up female hands with a blue manicure using pink smartphone outdoors.\" width=\"2121\" height=\"1414\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524.jpg 2121w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/GettyImages-1460098524-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2121px) 100vw, 2121px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Research shows that about 70% of teens use at least one kind of AI tool. \u003ccite>(Tatiana Meteleva/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Bauer-Kahan said the long game for AI legislation requires a careful effort to define terms so it’s not easy for companies to sidestep the mandate, and to protect mechanisms of enforcement so the law has teeth. For instance, if a child suffers actual harm as a result of the use of a covered product, AB 1064 allows that child, or a parent or guardian, to sue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But industry critics say the bill is misguided and full of issues that could lead to unintended consequences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AB 1064’s definitions are drafted so broadly that they could unintentionally capture almost all chatbot tools, even basic customer service functions, and would require invasive age-verification to maintain functionality … It risks limiting minors’ access to lawful and beneficial AI tools — raising significant First Amendment concerns,” Robert Boykin, executive director of California and the Southwest for the trade group TechNet, wrote in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bill could also spur costly litigation and create substantial regulatory uncertainty, Boykin said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>But a bill that provides no capacity for individuals to sue is a bill without teeth, according to many who watch Sacramento politics. That is to say, the State Attorney General’s Office has limited budget, people and attention to carry the entire burden of enforcement on its proverbial shoulders, especially when it’s busy pursuing \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/six-months-second-trump-administration-attorney-general-bonta-reports-california\">more than 37 lawsuits\u003c/a> against the second Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After congressional Republicans rejected a push to ban states from regulating artificial intelligence for a decade in the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, Trump appears to have signaled his intent to roll out a backdoor ban with his \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Americas-AI-Action-Plan.pdf\">AI Action Plan\u003c/a>. The executive orders include language like, “AI is far too important to smother in bureaucracy at this early stage, whether at the state or Federal level.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The implied threat: leave off AI regulation or federal funding could be reduced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seemed to be using money as a cudgel, but I’m not sure that will be effective here, or that’s something that really, would bother us, or prevent us in California from moving forward,” state Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker has introduced two AI bills this session. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB243&firstNav=tracking\">SB 243\u003c/a> would require companion chatbots to frequently remind users that it isn’t a person, in order to reduce the risk of emotional manipulation or \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">unhealthy attachment\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB468&firstNav=tracking\">SB 468\u003c/a> requires AI developers to design and disclose their own security measures to protect personal data, subject to state oversight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker, a former businessman, said he works with industry lobbyists to hash out language companies consider feasible, if not unobjectionable. In the case of SB 243, Boykin of TechNet acknowledged Becker’s constructive engagement, adding, “Our goal has always been to narrow some of the sweeping provisions — particularly around the definition of companion chatbots, reporting obligations, and costly third-party audits.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Becker said California lawmakers are also well practiced in battling Silicon Valley lobbyists intent on killing or neutering legislation. “Even before Trump, there [was] a bipartisan effort to preempt our privacy laws here in California. So that’s gonna be a constant fight,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He added that he speaks with people who work in Silicon Valley who tell him they want regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My anecdotal experience is that there’s much more conversation by the people who work at these companies offline, about the potential impact of these technologies, than you’ll hear out of the communications people,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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"reveal": {
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"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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},
"science-friday": {
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"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
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"snap-judgment": {
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"title": "Snap Judgment",
"tagline": "Real stories with killer beats",
"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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},
"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
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