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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1658905284\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/dormiya-vance/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya Vance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Southside reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/marlon-hyde/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlon Hyde\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, business reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/data-centers-are-growing-faster-in-atlanta-than-anywhere-else-in-the-us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers power our online lives. The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A full transcript will be available 1–2 workdays after the episode’s publication.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? 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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning 🧠\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "The Real Cost of AI Slop | KQED",
"description": "How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use. Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning 🧠\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Nvidia has announced a suite of open-source AI weather forecasting systems, joining other \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/category/technology\">Big Tech players\u003c/a> hoping to establish themselves in the space as federal funding evaporates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California farmers, insurers and meteorologists alike stand to gain from adding \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/ai\">AI\u003c/a> to their weather-forecasting toolboxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the American Meteorological Society’s\u003ca href=\"https://www.ametsoc.org/ams/meetings-events/upcoming-meetings/annual-meeting/\"> annual meeting\u003c/a> in Houston, Nvidia unveiled a new \u003ca href=\"https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/high-performance-computing/earth-2/\">NVIDIA Earth-2 “family”\u003c/a> of open models, libraries and frameworks for weather and climate AI, offering what it called “the world’s first fully open, accelerated weather AI software stack.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Clara-based chipmaker described the system as “complete” for nowcasting and medium-range predictions that previously took hours on high-performance computing clusters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nvidia said the tools represent the first time AI has surpassed traditional, physics-based weather prediction models in short-term precipitation forecasting. The company added that developers across industries are already using Earth-2 to predict weather and “harness actionable insights.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/qo78lSBYi-U?si=QfwIVTE331HifdRV\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a shot across the bow at other private AI developers, including Alphabet’s Google, Microsoft and Huawei Technologies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private-sector AI tools like Nvidia’s are welcome additions — not replacements — in a rapidly changing world, according to climate scientist Daniel Swain of UC Agriculture and Natural Resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swain said he is less concerned about the hallucinations that plague public-facing large language models than about AI weather modeling’s still unproven ability to predict edge cases based on historical data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes when it matters most — the very most extreme events that might be at the edge or outside of what we’ve seen historically — is precisely when we need the most accurate weather forecast,” Swain said. “We might not be there yet.” He added that the technology is rapidly advancing.[aside postID=news_12070850 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2234090773.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are real gains, in terms of scientific understanding as well as in prediction, and there’s need for continued caution,” said Noah Diffenbaugh, a professor and senior fellow at Stanford University’s Doerr School of Sustainability. But he struck a more cautionary note. “Other AI applications can produce inaccurate results, can produce results that are not grounded in reality. That’s a risk with these systems as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private developers trained their AI on a corpus of data that was largely publicly funded. While that bolsters the models’ credibility with scientists, it also raises troubling questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one, private developers are, by definition, concerned with profit — eventually, if not immediately. There is no guarantee they will not begin charging for access to their models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Within a university context, we have no profit motivation at all,” Diffenbaugh said. “We’re trying to understand how the world works. And we’re doing that within our time scale, a much longer time scale (than private developers). And I think the benefit that we can bring in our work is that we’re doing that work in the context of this rigorous, patient scientific evaluation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The primary question for Swain is whether optimism about end-to-end AI models could be used by Trump administration officials to justify ceding data collection and weather modeling entirely to the private sector, even as global warming dramatically alters the climate system, particularly in California, with its complex interplay of atmospheric rivers, marine layers, Sierra snowpack, wind patterns and wildfire risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Not only are we not there yet, not only do I think we won’t be there anytime soon, I’m not sure that we will ever get to that point,” Swain said. “It’s almost a category error to assume that the success of AI-based predictive modeling means that it’s just going to completely replace that whole pipeline. That’s just fundamentally divorced from the reality of the world we live in today, and very likely to be divorced from the reality of the world that we’re going to be living in for the foreseeable future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Clara-based chipmaker described the system as “complete” for nowcasting and medium-range predictions that previously took hours on high-performance computing clusters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nvidia said the tools represent the first time AI has surpassed traditional, physics-based weather prediction models in short-term precipitation forecasting. The company added that developers across industries are already using Earth-2 to predict weather and “harness actionable insights.”\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/qo78lSBYi-U'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/qo78lSBYi-U'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>It’s a shot across the bow at other private AI developers, including Alphabet’s Google, Microsoft and Huawei Technologies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private-sector AI tools like Nvidia’s are welcome additions — not replacements — in a rapidly changing world, according to climate scientist Daniel Swain of UC Agriculture and Natural Resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swain said he is less concerned about the hallucinations that plague public-facing large language models than about AI weather modeling’s still unproven ability to predict edge cases based on historical data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes when it matters most — the very most extreme events that might be at the edge or outside of what we’ve seen historically — is precisely when we need the most accurate weather forecast,” Swain said. “We might not be there yet.” He added that the technology is rapidly advancing.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Three voice-activated, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI-powered\u003c/a> toys tested by Common Sense Media researchers raised concerns that they were designed to engineer emotional attachment with young children and collect private data, according to the nonprofit’s report released Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The warning is the latest in a string from consumer advocates about the risks posed to children by artificial intelligence, including in the form of toys like stuffed animals or brightly colored plastic robots that act as chatbots, conversing and telling stories to children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unlike traditional toys, these devices present a range of new harms,” Common Sense Media researchers wrote in their \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/ai-toys\">report\u003c/a>, which tested the Grem, Bondu and Miko 3 toys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The children’s advocacy group recommended that parents not give AI companion toys to children 5 and younger, and it warned parents to exercise “extreme caution” even with children 6 to 13 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the group’s December survey of 1,004 parents of children ranging from infants to age 8, nearly half of parents have purchased or are considering purchasing these toys or similar ones for their children. The products are sold by major retailers like Walmart, Costco, Amazon and Target. One in 6 parents told Common Sense they have already purchased one, and 10% said they “definitely plan to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070893\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070893\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hyodol, the world’s first AI-based companion robot dolls, are being exhibited in the South Korean pavilion at the Mobile World Congress 2024 in Barcelona, Spain, on April 2, 2024. Created by a South Korean company, these dolls are designed to serve as social companions for the elderly and have been commercialized in several countries.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Common Sense Media is not usually in the business of saying, don’t use technology entirely,” said Robbie Torney, head of AI & digital assessments for Common Sense Media. “We really want to trust parents and empower them to make the best choices for their kids. But for under-5 children in particular, our testing showed a set of risks that are really a big developmental mismatch for where these young children are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media researchers tested the toys by creating child accounts for “users” ages 6 to 13, putting them through both everyday use and sensitive scenarios. Their team, including child development experts, evaluated everything from voice recognition and content accuracy to privacy practices, parental controls and whether the toys’ responses were developmentally appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though the toys are marketed as educational, more than a quarter of their responses in testing weren’t child-appropriate, the Common Sense report found. They included problematic content related to drugs, sex and risky activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our testing did show that these companies have put tremendous effort into guardrailing their chatbots,” Torney said. But “chatbots don’t understand context. They can’t make determinations about what a child actually means. If you ask about self-harm and then ask for dangerous chemicals, many of these devices will refuse the self-harm question, but won’t make the connection that dangerous chemicals might enable self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ritvik Sharma, chief growth officer at Miko, based in Mumbai, India, wrote that “child safety, privacy, and healthy development are foundational design requirements — not afterthoughts.” He also said the company was unable to reproduce the behaviors cited by Common Sense Media researchers “under normal operation,” sharing videos that showed Miko redirecting away from potentially problematic questions.[aside postID=news_12069286 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/OpenAI.jpg']“Miko’s conversational experience is powered by a proprietary, child-focused AI system developed specifically for young users, rather than adapted from general-purpose AI models,” Sharma added. “This allows us to evaluate responses for age suitability, emotional tone, and educational value before they reach a child.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, a spokesperson from Redwood-City-based Curio Interactive, which makes Grem, said the company’s toys “are designed with parent permission and control at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over a two-year beta period, we worked with approximately 2,000 families to develop a multi-tiered safety system that combines constrained conversational scope, age-appropriate design, layered filtering and refusal mechanisms, and continuous real-world monitoring, with safeguards enforced at multiple points in the interaction,” the spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Torney said parents need to ask themselves how much they trust the internet-connected companions not to cross developmentally appropriate lines into psychologically damaging territory when there’s no meaningful product safety regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the characteristics of under-5 children is that they have magical thinking, and what’s sometimes referred to as animism, the belief that objects may be real. They think about them differently than older children do,” Torney said. He acknowledged magical thinking can continue into later childhood as well, “which is why we’re still encouraging that extreme caution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Common Sense Media report comes after an \u003ca href=\"https://fairplayforkids.org/pf/aitoyadvisory\">advisory published in November\u003c/a> by the children’s advocacy group Fairplay strongly urged parents not to buy AI toys during the holiday season. The advisory was signed by more than 150 organizations, child psychiatrists and educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the new AI toys react contingently to young children,” wrote UC Berkeley professor Fei Xu, who directs the Berkeley Early Learning Lab. “That is, when a child says something, the AI toy says something back; if a child waves at the AI toy, it moves. This kind of social contingency is known to be very important for early social, emotional and language development. This raises the potential issue of young children being emotionally attached to these AI toys. More research is urgently needed to study this systematically.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to be exceptionally cautious when introducing understudied technologies with young children, whose biological and emotional minds are very vulnerable,” UCSF psychiatry and pediatrics professor Dr. Nicole Bush wrote. “While AI has the capacity for tremendous benefit to society, young children’s time is better spent with trusted adults and peers, or in constructive play or learning activities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1484px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070888\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1484\" height=\"492\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png 1484w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5-160x53.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1484px) 100vw, 1484px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A chat between a Common Sense Media tester and Miko 3, an AI toy. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, Common Sense Media and OpenAI announced they’re backing a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">consolidated effort\u003c/a> to put a measure on this November’s ballot in California that would institute AI chatbot guardrails for children. That effort is now in the signature-gathering stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A legislative measure that Common Sense backed, covering much of the same territory, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> at the end of last session. In his veto message, Newsom expressed concern that the bill could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, state Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, introduced \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB867\">Senate Bill 867\u003c/a>, which would establish a first-in-the-nation four-year moratorium on the sale and manufacture of toys with AI chatbots embedded in them, “until manufacturers have worked out the dangers embedded in them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to put the brakes on AI toys until they are proven safe for kids,” Padilla wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Three voice-activated, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI-powered\u003c/a> toys tested by Common Sense Media researchers raised concerns that they were designed to engineer emotional attachment with young children and collect private data, according to the nonprofit’s report released Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The warning is the latest in a string from consumer advocates about the risks posed to children by artificial intelligence, including in the form of toys like stuffed animals or brightly colored plastic robots that act as chatbots, conversing and telling stories to children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unlike traditional toys, these devices present a range of new harms,” Common Sense Media researchers wrote in their \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/ai-toys\">report\u003c/a>, which tested the Grem, Bondu and Miko 3 toys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The children’s advocacy group recommended that parents not give AI companion toys to children 5 and younger, and it warned parents to exercise “extreme caution” even with children 6 to 13 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the group’s December survey of 1,004 parents of children ranging from infants to age 8, nearly half of parents have purchased or are considering purchasing these toys or similar ones for their children. The products are sold by major retailers like Walmart, Costco, Amazon and Target. One in 6 parents told Common Sense they have already purchased one, and 10% said they “definitely plan to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070893\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070893\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hyodol, the world’s first AI-based companion robot dolls, are being exhibited in the South Korean pavilion at the Mobile World Congress 2024 in Barcelona, Spain, on April 2, 2024. Created by a South Korean company, these dolls are designed to serve as social companions for the elderly and have been commercialized in several countries.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Common Sense Media is not usually in the business of saying, don’t use technology entirely,” said Robbie Torney, head of AI & digital assessments for Common Sense Media. “We really want to trust parents and empower them to make the best choices for their kids. But for under-5 children in particular, our testing showed a set of risks that are really a big developmental mismatch for where these young children are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media researchers tested the toys by creating child accounts for “users” ages 6 to 13, putting them through both everyday use and sensitive scenarios. Their team, including child development experts, evaluated everything from voice recognition and content accuracy to privacy practices, parental controls and whether the toys’ responses were developmentally appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though the toys are marketed as educational, more than a quarter of their responses in testing weren’t child-appropriate, the Common Sense report found. They included problematic content related to drugs, sex and risky activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our testing did show that these companies have put tremendous effort into guardrailing their chatbots,” Torney said. But “chatbots don’t understand context. They can’t make determinations about what a child actually means. If you ask about self-harm and then ask for dangerous chemicals, many of these devices will refuse the self-harm question, but won’t make the connection that dangerous chemicals might enable self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ritvik Sharma, chief growth officer at Miko, based in Mumbai, India, wrote that “child safety, privacy, and healthy development are foundational design requirements — not afterthoughts.” He also said the company was unable to reproduce the behaviors cited by Common Sense Media researchers “under normal operation,” sharing videos that showed Miko redirecting away from potentially problematic questions.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Miko’s conversational experience is powered by a proprietary, child-focused AI system developed specifically for young users, rather than adapted from general-purpose AI models,” Sharma added. “This allows us to evaluate responses for age suitability, emotional tone, and educational value before they reach a child.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, a spokesperson from Redwood-City-based Curio Interactive, which makes Grem, said the company’s toys “are designed with parent permission and control at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over a two-year beta period, we worked with approximately 2,000 families to develop a multi-tiered safety system that combines constrained conversational scope, age-appropriate design, layered filtering and refusal mechanisms, and continuous real-world monitoring, with safeguards enforced at multiple points in the interaction,” the spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Torney said parents need to ask themselves how much they trust the internet-connected companions not to cross developmentally appropriate lines into psychologically damaging territory when there’s no meaningful product safety regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the characteristics of under-5 children is that they have magical thinking, and what’s sometimes referred to as animism, the belief that objects may be real. They think about them differently than older children do,” Torney said. He acknowledged magical thinking can continue into later childhood as well, “which is why we’re still encouraging that extreme caution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Common Sense Media report comes after an \u003ca href=\"https://fairplayforkids.org/pf/aitoyadvisory\">advisory published in November\u003c/a> by the children’s advocacy group Fairplay strongly urged parents not to buy AI toys during the holiday season. The advisory was signed by more than 150 organizations, child psychiatrists and educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the new AI toys react contingently to young children,” wrote UC Berkeley professor Fei Xu, who directs the Berkeley Early Learning Lab. “That is, when a child says something, the AI toy says something back; if a child waves at the AI toy, it moves. This kind of social contingency is known to be very important for early social, emotional and language development. This raises the potential issue of young children being emotionally attached to these AI toys. More research is urgently needed to study this systematically.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to be exceptionally cautious when introducing understudied technologies with young children, whose biological and emotional minds are very vulnerable,” UCSF psychiatry and pediatrics professor Dr. Nicole Bush wrote. “While AI has the capacity for tremendous benefit to society, young children’s time is better spent with trusted adults and peers, or in constructive play or learning activities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1484px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070888\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1484\" height=\"492\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png 1484w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5-160x53.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1484px) 100vw, 1484px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A chat between a Common Sense Media tester and Miko 3, an AI toy. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, Common Sense Media and OpenAI announced they’re backing a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">consolidated effort\u003c/a> to put a measure on this November’s ballot in California that would institute AI chatbot guardrails for children. That effort is now in the signature-gathering stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A legislative measure that Common Sense backed, covering much of the same territory, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> at the end of last session. In his veto message, Newsom expressed concern that the bill could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, state Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, introduced \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB867\">Senate Bill 867\u003c/a>, which would establish a first-in-the-nation four-year moratorium on the sale and manufacture of toys with AI chatbots embedded in them, “until manufacturers have worked out the dangers embedded in them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to put the brakes on AI toys until they are proven safe for kids,” Padilla wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The health care industry has often been slow to adopt new technology — but not when it comes to AI. And as Kaiser Permanente’s mental health clinicians in Northern California negotiate their latest contract with the company, they’re looking for reassurance that AI isn’t coming for their jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Links:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999553/will-ai-replace-your-therapist-kaiser-wont-say-no\">Will AI Replace Your Therapist? Kaiser Won’t Say No\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3808554854\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. So I went to the doctor’s the other day, and as expected, the nurse asked some pretty basic questions. How tall am I? Do I exercise? Any history of cancer in the family? Then, when the doctor walked in, she asked a pretty surprising question. Would it be okay if they used some sort of automated transcriber to take notes on my visit? An automated transcriber, as in AI, I asked. Turns out AI is everywhere, including in the doctor’s office. Some in the healthcare industry say AI is making their lives easier. But others, like the mental healthcare workers at Kaiser are also worried that it could replace them entirely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:01:05] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full-blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to provide, you know, chat-based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:20] Today, will AI replace your therapist? And why the debate at Kaiser is worth watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:38] Health care is an industry that is usually pretty slow to adopt new technology, but the experts that I talk to say that AI is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] April Dembosky is a healthcare correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:52] Health systems are really excited about the potential that AI has primarily in this moment to improve diagnostics, but also to cut down on paperwork and administrative tasks. So if you go see a medical doctor at Sutter or Kaiser right now, very likely you have been or very soon will be asked if it’s okay for the doctor to use an AI note taker where they will use their cell phone. To record the interaction and then the AI will summarize and write notes for your medical chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Pitt \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] I have an app on my phone that can listen to our conversation and the details of my physical exam and write it all up in your medical record. Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:02:39] If folks out there are watching The Pitt, this actually came up in episode two. So the episode that just came out last week. So there’s a new doctor in the ER and she’s introducing the residents to the concept of AI note takers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] What do you think?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:56] Well, I don’t think it’s a cardiac.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:58] I mean, what do you think of the app?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>00:03:00] I mean, it’s hard to say without seeing the full thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:02] Take a look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:04] Oh my God, do you know how much time this will save?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:07] And so she takes out her cell phone in the exam room and tells a patient, you know, it’s going to record their interaction. And afterward they walk out, they walk over to a computer and the AI has already written a summary of the exam in the patient’s chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:24] Well, excuse me, it says here she takes risperdol and antipsychotics. She takes restoril when needed for sleep, so is that, um…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] AI, almost intelligent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:34] You must always carefully proofread and correct the minor errors. It’s excellent, but not perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:44] That’s one of the ways that AI is most present in our healthcare right now. I mean, I have friends in the Bay Area who work in healthcare who, you know, I saw some for dinner a little while ago and you know they said, I am here tonight because of the AI note taker. You know, like because the AI notetaker like did my charting for me, I am able to be here and hanging out with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:12] Wow, that is so interesting. And yeah, I mean, we’re wrestling with the role of AI in our healthcare and popular culture, but also in real life right now. I know this is a big, big question that is especially relevant for mental healthcare workers in Northern California right now, specifically at Kaiser. Can you explain? April, why this is such a relevant conversation among mental health care workers right now in particular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] Sure, so mental health clinicians at Kaiser are in contract negotiations right now. They’ve actually been in bargaining for this next contract for about six months now. So it’s been kind of dragging along. And one of the sticking points is actually around AI. So, mental health workers, they know that AI is here to stay in health care, but when it comes to mental health care they want some simple guardrails. They want to make sure that they are part of seeing that AI is rolled out responsibly in a way that protects patients’ privacy, but also in a ways that protects their own jobs. And so one of the things that they’ve asked for in their contract is language that says specifically any introduction of new AI tools will be used only to assist therapists, but it will not be used to replace them. To them, I think this sounds like a really reasonable ask, but they were really surprised when Kaiser said no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] So again, they want flexibility to increase their use of AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:06] I talked to Ilana Marcucci-Morris. She’s a clinical social worker at Kaiser. She works in the intake department, and she’s a member of the union that is bargaining this contract. It’s called the National Union of Health Care Workers, NUHW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:22] When we ask that AI not replace us, they will not put that language in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] And when I talk to her, she says, I’m a millennial, I love gadgets, I love tools, you know, I get it. We just want some simple protections here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to not just skip the licensed triage, but to provide, you know, chat based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:54] One of the reasons they’re surprised is because their sister union in Southern California had asked for the same language and Kaiser agreed to it. And that contract was signed last May. And so basically, you know, a month or so after signing a contract that included this language, Kaiser was backing off saying, we don’t wanna commit to that anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:07:20] I mean, they’ll say, no, that’s not our intention. But when we say, hey, can you put that it’s not your intention in the contract? Well, we can’t predict the future. We need to maintain flexibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] So it sounds like these mental health care workers are afraid for their jobs, but some of this technology is already being used. What is it about these tools that they are so concerned about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] Basically, Kaiser is excited about getting clinicians to use this note-taking software so that it will free them up to see more patients in a day. But clinicians are really worried about this. I think they’re worried about the privacy and data security, where are these recordings going, how long are they kept, how well are they protected, who else can see them. But specifically, I think they’re also really concerned about how this technology could influence the patient interaction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:08:27] I wouldn’t want a recording of my disagreements with a family member or my trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:08:34] And so what Ilana says is talking to your doctor about a fever or a skin condition, it’s really different from talking to your therapist about really vulnerable, really emotional things that are going on in your life. And they’re concerned that patients, if they know they’re being recorded, that it might cause them to hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:00] A big part of our work is that human connection and rapport.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:09:08] So Kaiser clinicians are basically saying, look, you know, right now this technology is optional for us to use, but we’re really worried that Kaiser is going to, you know, try to force us to use it, perhaps even in clinical situations where we think it could be harmful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:27] Having a human being in your court that is trained and is a professional giving you warmth and encouragement and evidence-based direction is something that technology just can’t replace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] AI has already taken roles that people used to have at Kaiser, like doing intake for mental health care. Patients now have the option of doing an e-visit through the app, where you click through a series of questions and the algorithm comes up with a score and recommends where you go next. So far, there isn’t a Kaiser therapist chatbot. Though it hasn’t stopped a lot of people from seeking help for their problems outside of the healthcare system altogether. And April, we’re also in an environment where many people are seeking out mental health help through chatbots, including teenagers. Are patient preferences around this changing as well? And how do mental health experts respond to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] In the last few years, we’ve seen a huge rise of consumer facing chatbots and these are not therapists to be clear, but people are starting to use them as therapists. This is a trend that is already taken off because they are available immediately. You can tell them how to interact with you and they are always there. There are clinical psychologists who have. You know, been working on a verified evidence-based, widely tested kind of AI chat bot for therapy for at least six years now. And what they will tell you is it takes a really, really long time to develop a proven product like that, that, you know actually conforms to the standards of delivering therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:11:33] We cannot institute any of this on a large scale population level without studying it first and making sure it’s safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:11:42] Jodi Halpern is a bioethics professor at UC Berkeley. Jodi Helpern talks about the potential that chatbots have in cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a particular kind of therapy that tends to be a little bit more formal, a little more formulaic, but she’s very circumspect when it comes to relational therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:04] In the meeting with an empathic human face-to-face, there is the possibility for the patient really to develop trust. And that’s actually a powerful element in improving health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:12:20] Chatbots are not very good at this, especially consumer-facing chatbots are designed to be affirmative. Sycophantic is the word that experts use. They’re just designed to validate everything you say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:40] We need more skillful human workforce in the mental health area to meet our unmet needs. We need AI to unburden the skillful human force through ambient medical records and other forms that don’t have to be intrusive or overly privacy invading, but they can take the workload off clinicians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:06] Coming back to Kaiser, April, many of their employees are already using AI. No Kaiser AI therapists as of now, although many of the workers like Alana are worried that there could be. Has Kaiser had any response to this story or any thoughts on AI or contract negotiations that they’ve shared with you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:13:28] Kaiser has not had a lot to say about this. I’ve interacted with them a fair amount asking for interviews multiple times, and they have not been willing to sit down and talk about this, they shared a statement. It says in part that artificial intelligence tools at Kaiser don’t make medical decisions. Our physicians and care teams are always at the center of decision-making with our patients. AI does not replace human assessment and care, but they do see artificial intelligence holding, as they say, significant potential to benefit healthcare by supporting better diagnostics, enhancing patient-clinician relationships, optimizing clinicians’ time, and ensuring fairness in care experiences and health outcomes by addressing individual needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:23] And I mean, it does seem like consumer trends around AI are one thing, April, but it also seems like these sort of large healthcare systems like Kaiser have a really big role to play in terms of the role that AI could play in the future as well. I mean why do you think it’s important to watch what Kaiser does from here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:14:48] Kaiser is a large healthcare institution. It has power. It can influence how quickly and how broadly new technologies are adopted in a way that could have impact on the industry as a whole. And it’s also one of the very few systems that has a mental health union that’s trying to influence that process. So I think that those things put together just make it a really interesting health system to watch. For the way that that influence works on how patients access healthcare and how mental health clinicians do their jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The health care industry has often been slow to adopt new technology — but not when it comes to AI. And as Kaiser Permanente’s mental health clinicians in Northern California negotiate their latest contract with the company, they’re looking for reassurance that AI isn’t coming for their jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Links:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999553/will-ai-replace-your-therapist-kaiser-wont-say-no\">Will AI Replace Your Therapist? Kaiser Won’t Say No\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3808554854\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. So I went to the doctor’s the other day, and as expected, the nurse asked some pretty basic questions. How tall am I? Do I exercise? Any history of cancer in the family? Then, when the doctor walked in, she asked a pretty surprising question. Would it be okay if they used some sort of automated transcriber to take notes on my visit? An automated transcriber, as in AI, I asked. Turns out AI is everywhere, including in the doctor’s office. Some in the healthcare industry say AI is making their lives easier. But others, like the mental healthcare workers at Kaiser are also worried that it could replace them entirely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:01:05] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full-blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to provide, you know, chat-based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:20] Today, will AI replace your therapist? And why the debate at Kaiser is worth watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:38] Health care is an industry that is usually pretty slow to adopt new technology, but the experts that I talk to say that AI is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] April Dembosky is a healthcare correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:52] Health systems are really excited about the potential that AI has primarily in this moment to improve diagnostics, but also to cut down on paperwork and administrative tasks. So if you go see a medical doctor at Sutter or Kaiser right now, very likely you have been or very soon will be asked if it’s okay for the doctor to use an AI note taker where they will use their cell phone. To record the interaction and then the AI will summarize and write notes for your medical chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Pitt \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] I have an app on my phone that can listen to our conversation and the details of my physical exam and write it all up in your medical record. Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:02:39] If folks out there are watching The Pitt, this actually came up in episode two. So the episode that just came out last week. So there’s a new doctor in the ER and she’s introducing the residents to the concept of AI note takers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] What do you think?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:56] Well, I don’t think it’s a cardiac.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:58] I mean, what do you think of the app?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>00:03:00] I mean, it’s hard to say without seeing the full thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:02] Take a look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:04] Oh my God, do you know how much time this will save?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:07] And so she takes out her cell phone in the exam room and tells a patient, you know, it’s going to record their interaction. And afterward they walk out, they walk over to a computer and the AI has already written a summary of the exam in the patient’s chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:24] Well, excuse me, it says here she takes risperdol and antipsychotics. She takes restoril when needed for sleep, so is that, um…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] AI, almost intelligent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:34] You must always carefully proofread and correct the minor errors. It’s excellent, but not perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:44] That’s one of the ways that AI is most present in our healthcare right now. I mean, I have friends in the Bay Area who work in healthcare who, you know, I saw some for dinner a little while ago and you know they said, I am here tonight because of the AI note taker. You know, like because the AI notetaker like did my charting for me, I am able to be here and hanging out with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:12] Wow, that is so interesting. And yeah, I mean, we’re wrestling with the role of AI in our healthcare and popular culture, but also in real life right now. I know this is a big, big question that is especially relevant for mental healthcare workers in Northern California right now, specifically at Kaiser. Can you explain? April, why this is such a relevant conversation among mental health care workers right now in particular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] Sure, so mental health clinicians at Kaiser are in contract negotiations right now. They’ve actually been in bargaining for this next contract for about six months now. So it’s been kind of dragging along. And one of the sticking points is actually around AI. So, mental health workers, they know that AI is here to stay in health care, but when it comes to mental health care they want some simple guardrails. They want to make sure that they are part of seeing that AI is rolled out responsibly in a way that protects patients’ privacy, but also in a ways that protects their own jobs. And so one of the things that they’ve asked for in their contract is language that says specifically any introduction of new AI tools will be used only to assist therapists, but it will not be used to replace them. To them, I think this sounds like a really reasonable ask, but they were really surprised when Kaiser said no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] So again, they want flexibility to increase their use of AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:06] I talked to Ilana Marcucci-Morris. She’s a clinical social worker at Kaiser. She works in the intake department, and she’s a member of the union that is bargaining this contract. It’s called the National Union of Health Care Workers, NUHW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:22] When we ask that AI not replace us, they will not put that language in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] And when I talk to her, she says, I’m a millennial, I love gadgets, I love tools, you know, I get it. We just want some simple protections here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to not just skip the licensed triage, but to provide, you know, chat based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:54] One of the reasons they’re surprised is because their sister union in Southern California had asked for the same language and Kaiser agreed to it. And that contract was signed last May. And so basically, you know, a month or so after signing a contract that included this language, Kaiser was backing off saying, we don’t wanna commit to that anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:07:20] I mean, they’ll say, no, that’s not our intention. But when we say, hey, can you put that it’s not your intention in the contract? Well, we can’t predict the future. We need to maintain flexibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] So it sounds like these mental health care workers are afraid for their jobs, but some of this technology is already being used. What is it about these tools that they are so concerned about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] Basically, Kaiser is excited about getting clinicians to use this note-taking software so that it will free them up to see more patients in a day. But clinicians are really worried about this. I think they’re worried about the privacy and data security, where are these recordings going, how long are they kept, how well are they protected, who else can see them. But specifically, I think they’re also really concerned about how this technology could influence the patient interaction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:08:27] I wouldn’t want a recording of my disagreements with a family member or my trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:08:34] And so what Ilana says is talking to your doctor about a fever or a skin condition, it’s really different from talking to your therapist about really vulnerable, really emotional things that are going on in your life. And they’re concerned that patients, if they know they’re being recorded, that it might cause them to hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:00] A big part of our work is that human connection and rapport.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:09:08] So Kaiser clinicians are basically saying, look, you know, right now this technology is optional for us to use, but we’re really worried that Kaiser is going to, you know, try to force us to use it, perhaps even in clinical situations where we think it could be harmful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:27] Having a human being in your court that is trained and is a professional giving you warmth and encouragement and evidence-based direction is something that technology just can’t replace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] AI has already taken roles that people used to have at Kaiser, like doing intake for mental health care. Patients now have the option of doing an e-visit through the app, where you click through a series of questions and the algorithm comes up with a score and recommends where you go next. So far, there isn’t a Kaiser therapist chatbot. Though it hasn’t stopped a lot of people from seeking help for their problems outside of the healthcare system altogether. And April, we’re also in an environment where many people are seeking out mental health help through chatbots, including teenagers. Are patient preferences around this changing as well? And how do mental health experts respond to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] In the last few years, we’ve seen a huge rise of consumer facing chatbots and these are not therapists to be clear, but people are starting to use them as therapists. This is a trend that is already taken off because they are available immediately. You can tell them how to interact with you and they are always there. There are clinical psychologists who have. You know, been working on a verified evidence-based, widely tested kind of AI chat bot for therapy for at least six years now. And what they will tell you is it takes a really, really long time to develop a proven product like that, that, you know actually conforms to the standards of delivering therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:11:33] We cannot institute any of this on a large scale population level without studying it first and making sure it’s safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:11:42] Jodi Halpern is a bioethics professor at UC Berkeley. Jodi Helpern talks about the potential that chatbots have in cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a particular kind of therapy that tends to be a little bit more formal, a little more formulaic, but she’s very circumspect when it comes to relational therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:04] In the meeting with an empathic human face-to-face, there is the possibility for the patient really to develop trust. And that’s actually a powerful element in improving health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:12:20] Chatbots are not very good at this, especially consumer-facing chatbots are designed to be affirmative. Sycophantic is the word that experts use. They’re just designed to validate everything you say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:40] We need more skillful human workforce in the mental health area to meet our unmet needs. We need AI to unburden the skillful human force through ambient medical records and other forms that don’t have to be intrusive or overly privacy invading, but they can take the workload off clinicians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:06] Coming back to Kaiser, April, many of their employees are already using AI. No Kaiser AI therapists as of now, although many of the workers like Alana are worried that there could be. Has Kaiser had any response to this story or any thoughts on AI or contract negotiations that they’ve shared with you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:13:28] Kaiser has not had a lot to say about this. I’ve interacted with them a fair amount asking for interviews multiple times, and they have not been willing to sit down and talk about this, they shared a statement. It says in part that artificial intelligence tools at Kaiser don’t make medical decisions. Our physicians and care teams are always at the center of decision-making with our patients. AI does not replace human assessment and care, but they do see artificial intelligence holding, as they say, significant potential to benefit healthcare by supporting better diagnostics, enhancing patient-clinician relationships, optimizing clinicians’ time, and ensuring fairness in care experiences and health outcomes by addressing individual needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:23] And I mean, it does seem like consumer trends around AI are one thing, April, but it also seems like these sort of large healthcare systems like Kaiser have a really big role to play in terms of the role that AI could play in the future as well. I mean why do you think it’s important to watch what Kaiser does from here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:14:48] Kaiser is a large healthcare institution. It has power. It can influence how quickly and how broadly new technologies are adopted in a way that could have impact on the industry as a whole. And it’s also one of the very few systems that has a mental health union that’s trying to influence that process. So I think that those things put together just make it a really interesting health system to watch. For the way that that influence works on how patients access healthcare and how mental health clinicians do their jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "california-investigates-elon-musks-ai-company-after-avalanche-of-complaints-about-sexual-content",
"title": "California Investigates Elon Musk’s AI Company After ‘Avalanche’ of Complaints About Sexual Content",
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"headTitle": "California Investigates Elon Musk’s AI Company After ‘Avalanche’ of Complaints About Sexual Content | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California Attorney General \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/rob-bonta\">Rob Bonta\u003c/a> today announced an investigation into how and whether Elon Musk’s X and xAI broke the law in the past few weeks by enabling the spread of naked or sexual imagery without consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>xAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/xai-grok-child-sexualized-photos-59cabffe?gaa_at=eafs&gaa_n=AWEtsqeXFpqFQcrxsO5WTkfUv06n_yUF6SLsaiidykNtXuu99sfcWdIeGHE6&gaa_ts=6967eaf6&gaa_sig=Xo5Vee-O05o95LbH9S5pemMTlPI6DdA5iZKEj5SEbQPtBBwZQuX9-vC1SF3WvpfVZT6YyP8zLGAprQ5MlwHhpQ%3D%3D\">reportedly\u003c/a> updated its Grok artificial intelligence tool last month to allow image editing. Users on the social media platform X, which is connected to the tool, began using Grok to remove clothing in pictures of women and children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The avalanche of reports detailing the non-consensual sexually explicit material that xAI has produced and posted online in recent weeks is shocking,” Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-launches-investigation-xai-grok-over-undressed-sexual-ai\">said in a written statement\u003c/a>. “This material, which depicts women and children in nude and sexually explicit situations, has been used to harass people across the internet. I urge xAI to take immediate action to ensure this goes no further.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta urged Californians who want to report depictions of them or their children undressed or commiting sexual acts to visit \u003ca href=\"http://oag.ca.gov/report\">oag.ca.gov/report\u003c/a>. In an emailed response, xAI did not address questions about the investigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Research \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-01-07/musk-s-grok-ai-generated-thousands-of-undressed-images-per-hour-on-x?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2Nzc5MDk4NywiZXhwIjoxNzY4Mzk1Nzg3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUOEhRS0hLR0lGUE8wMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJGRUIzODlCNUI2ODI0RTY0QjY5MENEODE1RTBDREZGRCJ9.3B4JWnmqmXFC3DOqhs11h99g5gNzi4j_poKAHLuWdrY&leadSource=uverify%20wall\">obtained by Bloomberg\u003c/a> found that X now produces more non-consensual naked or sexual imagery than any other website online. In a posting on X, Musk promised “consequences” for people who made illegal content with the tool. On Friday, Grok limited image editing to paying subscribers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One potential route for Bonta to prosecute xAI is a law that \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">went into effect\u003c/a> just two weeks ago \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab621\">creating legal liability for the creation and distribution\u003c/a> of “deepfake” pornography.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12013478\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12013478\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Attorney General Rob Bonta speaks with KQED politics reporters Marisa Lagos and Scott Shafer for Political Breakdown at the KQED offices in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>X and xAI appear to be violating the provisions of that law, known as AB 621, said Sam Dordulian, who previously worked in the sex crimes unit of the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office but today works in private practice as a lawyer for people in cases involving deepfakes or revenge porn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, author of the law, told CalMatters in a statement last week that she reached out to prosecutors, including the attorney general’s office and the city attorney of San Francisco, to remind them that they can act under the law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s happening on X, Bauer-Kahan said, is what AB 621 was designed to address.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Real women are having their images manipulated without consent, and the psychological and reputational harm is devastating,” the San Ramon Democrat said in an emailed statement. “Underage children are having their images used to create child sexual abuse material, and these websites are knowingly facilitating it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A global concern\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s inquiry also comes shortly after a \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/cagovernor/status/2011489740026232891\">call for an investigation\u003c/a> by Gov. Gavin Newsom, backlash from regulators in the European Union and India and bans on X in Malaysia, Indonesia, and potentially the United Kingdom. As Grok app downloads \u003ca href=\"https://sherwood.news/tech/grok-has-been-climbing-apple-and-googles-app-store-rankings-amid-calls-to/\">rise in Apple and Google app store\u003c/a>s, lawmakers and advocates are calling for the smartphone makers to prohibit the application.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why Grok created the feature the way it did and how it will respond to the controversy around it is unclear, and answers may not be forthcoming, since \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-01-07/musk-s-grok-ai-generated-thousands-of-undressed-images-per-hour-on-x?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2Nzc5MDk4NywiZXhwIjoxNzY4Mzk1Nzg3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUOEhRS0hLR0lGUE8wMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJGRUIzODlCNUI2ODI0RTY0QjY5MENEODE1RTBDREZGRCJ9.3B4JWnmqmXFC3DOqhs11h99g5gNzi4j_poKAHLuWdrY&leadSource=uverify%20wall\">an analysis recently concluded\u003c/a> that it’s the least transparent of major AI systems available today. xAI did not address questions about the investigation from CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of concrete harm from deepfakes is piling up. In 2024, the FBI warned that the use of \u003ca href=\"https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/nashville/news/sextortion-a-growing-threat-targeting-minors\">deepfake tools to extort young people is a growing problem\u003c/a> that has led to instances of self-harm and suicide. Multiple audits have found that \u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/laion-and-the-challenges-of-preventing-ai-generated-csam/\">child sexual abuse material is inside the training data of AI models\u003c/a>, making them capable of generating vulgar photos. A \u003ca href=\"https://cdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/FINAL-UPDATED-CDT-2024-NCII-Polling-Slide-Deck.pdf\">2024 Center for Democracy and Technology survey\u003c/a> found that 15% of high school students have heard of or seen sexually explicit imagery of someone they know at school in the past year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The investigation announced today is the latest action by the attorney general to push AI companies to keep kids safe. Late last year, Bonta endorsed a bill that would have prevented chatbots that talk about self-harm and engage in sexually explicit conversations from interacting with people under 18.[aside postID=news_12064374 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/TeslaFremontGetty.jpg']He also joined attorneys general from 44 other states in sending a letter that questions why companies like Meta and OpenAI allow their chatbots to have sexually inappropriate conversations with minors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has passed roughly half a dozen laws since 2019 to protect people from deepfakes. The \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab621\">new law by Bauer-Kahan\u003c/a> amends and strengthens a 2019 law, most significantly by allowing district attorneys to bring cases against companies that “recklessly aid and abet” the distribution of deepfakes without the consent of the person depicted nude or committing sexual acts. That means the average person can ask the attorney general or the district attorney where they live to file a case on their behalf. It also increases the maximum amount that a judge can award a person from $150,000 to $250,000. Under the law, a public prosecutor is not required to prove that an individual depicted in an AI-generated nude or sexual image suffered actual harm to bring a case to court. Websites that refuse to comply within 30 days can face penalties of $25,000 per violation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to those measures, two 2024 laws (\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240ab1831\">AB 1831\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1381?slug=CA_202320240SB1381\">SB 1381\u003c/a>) expand the state’s definition of child pornography to make possession or distribution of artificially-generated child sexual abuse material illegal. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb981\">Another required\u003c/a> social media platforms to give people an easy way to request the immediate removal of a deepfake, and defines the posting of such material as a form of digital identity theft. A California law limiting the use of deepfakes in elections was signed into law last year, but was \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/08/05/elon-musk-x-court-win-california-deepfake-law-00494936\">struck down by a federal judge last summer\u003c/a> following a lawsuit by X and Elon Musk.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Future reforms\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every new state law helps give lawyers like Dordulian a new avenue to address harmful uses of deepfakes, but he said more needs to be done to help people protect themselves. He said his clients face challenges proving violation of existing laws since they require distribution of explicit materials, for example, with a messaging app or social media platform, for protections to kick in. In his experience, people who use nudify apps typically know each other, so distribution doesn’t always take place, and if it does, it can be hard to prove.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, he said, he has a client who works as a nanny who alleges that the father of the kids she takes care of made images of her using photos she posted on Instagram. The nanny found the images on his iPad. This discovery was disturbing for her and caused her emotional trauma, but since he can’t use deepfake laws, he has to sue on the basis of negligence or emotional distress, and laws that were never created to address deepfakes. Similarly, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/09/27/nudify-ai-generated-deepfake-fbi.html\">victims told CNBC last year\u003c/a> that the distinction between creating and distributing deepfakes left a gap in the law in a number of U.S. states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The law needs to keep up with what’s really happening on the ground and what women are experiencing, which is just the simple act of creation itself is the problem,” Dordulian said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An iPhone screen displays the Grok logo on the Grok AI app on January 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>California is at the forefront of passing laws to protect people from deepfakes, but existing law isn’t meeting the moment, said Jennifer Gibson, cofounder and director of \u003ca href=\"https://psst.org/\">Psst\u003c/a>, a group created a little over a year ago that provides pro bono legal services to tech and AI workers interested in whistleblowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/12/new-ai-regulation/\">California law that went into effect Jan. 1\u003c/a> protects whistleblowers inside AI companies but only if they work on catastrophic risk that can kill more than 50 people or cause more than $1 billion in damages. If the law protected people who work on deepfakes, former X employees who \u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-grok-explicit-content-data-annotation-2025-9?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email\">detailed witnessing Grok generating illegal sexually explicit material last year to Business Insider\u003c/a> would, Gibson said, have had protections if they shared the information with authorities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There needs to be a lot more protection for exactly this kind of scenario in which an insider sees that this is foreseeable, knows that this is going to happen, and they need somewhere to go to report to both to keep the company accountable and protect the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/01/california-investigates-deepfakes-elon-musk-company/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Attorney General Rob Bonta said his office is looking into whether a new AI image editing tool from Elon Musk’s company violates California law.",
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"title": "California Investigates Elon Musk’s AI Company After ‘Avalanche’ of Complaints About Sexual Content | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California Attorney General \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/rob-bonta\">Rob Bonta\u003c/a> today announced an investigation into how and whether Elon Musk’s X and xAI broke the law in the past few weeks by enabling the spread of naked or sexual imagery without consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>xAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/xai-grok-child-sexualized-photos-59cabffe?gaa_at=eafs&gaa_n=AWEtsqeXFpqFQcrxsO5WTkfUv06n_yUF6SLsaiidykNtXuu99sfcWdIeGHE6&gaa_ts=6967eaf6&gaa_sig=Xo5Vee-O05o95LbH9S5pemMTlPI6DdA5iZKEj5SEbQPtBBwZQuX9-vC1SF3WvpfVZT6YyP8zLGAprQ5MlwHhpQ%3D%3D\">reportedly\u003c/a> updated its Grok artificial intelligence tool last month to allow image editing. Users on the social media platform X, which is connected to the tool, began using Grok to remove clothing in pictures of women and children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The avalanche of reports detailing the non-consensual sexually explicit material that xAI has produced and posted online in recent weeks is shocking,” Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-launches-investigation-xai-grok-over-undressed-sexual-ai\">said in a written statement\u003c/a>. “This material, which depicts women and children in nude and sexually explicit situations, has been used to harass people across the internet. I urge xAI to take immediate action to ensure this goes no further.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta urged Californians who want to report depictions of them or their children undressed or commiting sexual acts to visit \u003ca href=\"http://oag.ca.gov/report\">oag.ca.gov/report\u003c/a>. In an emailed response, xAI did not address questions about the investigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Research \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-01-07/musk-s-grok-ai-generated-thousands-of-undressed-images-per-hour-on-x?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2Nzc5MDk4NywiZXhwIjoxNzY4Mzk1Nzg3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUOEhRS0hLR0lGUE8wMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJGRUIzODlCNUI2ODI0RTY0QjY5MENEODE1RTBDREZGRCJ9.3B4JWnmqmXFC3DOqhs11h99g5gNzi4j_poKAHLuWdrY&leadSource=uverify%20wall\">obtained by Bloomberg\u003c/a> found that X now produces more non-consensual naked or sexual imagery than any other website online. In a posting on X, Musk promised “consequences” for people who made illegal content with the tool. On Friday, Grok limited image editing to paying subscribers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One potential route for Bonta to prosecute xAI is a law that \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">went into effect\u003c/a> just two weeks ago \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab621\">creating legal liability for the creation and distribution\u003c/a> of “deepfake” pornography.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12013478\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12013478\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Attorney General Rob Bonta speaks with KQED politics reporters Marisa Lagos and Scott Shafer for Political Breakdown at the KQED offices in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>X and xAI appear to be violating the provisions of that law, known as AB 621, said Sam Dordulian, who previously worked in the sex crimes unit of the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office but today works in private practice as a lawyer for people in cases involving deepfakes or revenge porn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, author of the law, told CalMatters in a statement last week that she reached out to prosecutors, including the attorney general’s office and the city attorney of San Francisco, to remind them that they can act under the law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s happening on X, Bauer-Kahan said, is what AB 621 was designed to address.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Real women are having their images manipulated without consent, and the psychological and reputational harm is devastating,” the San Ramon Democrat said in an emailed statement. “Underage children are having their images used to create child sexual abuse material, and these websites are knowingly facilitating it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A global concern\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s inquiry also comes shortly after a \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/cagovernor/status/2011489740026232891\">call for an investigation\u003c/a> by Gov. Gavin Newsom, backlash from regulators in the European Union and India and bans on X in Malaysia, Indonesia, and potentially the United Kingdom. As Grok app downloads \u003ca href=\"https://sherwood.news/tech/grok-has-been-climbing-apple-and-googles-app-store-rankings-amid-calls-to/\">rise in Apple and Google app store\u003c/a>s, lawmakers and advocates are calling for the smartphone makers to prohibit the application.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why Grok created the feature the way it did and how it will respond to the controversy around it is unclear, and answers may not be forthcoming, since \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-01-07/musk-s-grok-ai-generated-thousands-of-undressed-images-per-hour-on-x?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2Nzc5MDk4NywiZXhwIjoxNzY4Mzk1Nzg3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUOEhRS0hLR0lGUE8wMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJGRUIzODlCNUI2ODI0RTY0QjY5MENEODE1RTBDREZGRCJ9.3B4JWnmqmXFC3DOqhs11h99g5gNzi4j_poKAHLuWdrY&leadSource=uverify%20wall\">an analysis recently concluded\u003c/a> that it’s the least transparent of major AI systems available today. xAI did not address questions about the investigation from CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of concrete harm from deepfakes is piling up. In 2024, the FBI warned that the use of \u003ca href=\"https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/nashville/news/sextortion-a-growing-threat-targeting-minors\">deepfake tools to extort young people is a growing problem\u003c/a> that has led to instances of self-harm and suicide. Multiple audits have found that \u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/laion-and-the-challenges-of-preventing-ai-generated-csam/\">child sexual abuse material is inside the training data of AI models\u003c/a>, making them capable of generating vulgar photos. A \u003ca href=\"https://cdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/FINAL-UPDATED-CDT-2024-NCII-Polling-Slide-Deck.pdf\">2024 Center for Democracy and Technology survey\u003c/a> found that 15% of high school students have heard of or seen sexually explicit imagery of someone they know at school in the past year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The investigation announced today is the latest action by the attorney general to push AI companies to keep kids safe. Late last year, Bonta endorsed a bill that would have prevented chatbots that talk about self-harm and engage in sexually explicit conversations from interacting with people under 18.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>He also joined attorneys general from 44 other states in sending a letter that questions why companies like Meta and OpenAI allow their chatbots to have sexually inappropriate conversations with minors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has passed roughly half a dozen laws since 2019 to protect people from deepfakes. The \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab621\">new law by Bauer-Kahan\u003c/a> amends and strengthens a 2019 law, most significantly by allowing district attorneys to bring cases against companies that “recklessly aid and abet” the distribution of deepfakes without the consent of the person depicted nude or committing sexual acts. That means the average person can ask the attorney general or the district attorney where they live to file a case on their behalf. It also increases the maximum amount that a judge can award a person from $150,000 to $250,000. Under the law, a public prosecutor is not required to prove that an individual depicted in an AI-generated nude or sexual image suffered actual harm to bring a case to court. Websites that refuse to comply within 30 days can face penalties of $25,000 per violation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to those measures, two 2024 laws (\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240ab1831\">AB 1831\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1381?slug=CA_202320240SB1381\">SB 1381\u003c/a>) expand the state’s definition of child pornography to make possession or distribution of artificially-generated child sexual abuse material illegal. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb981\">Another required\u003c/a> social media platforms to give people an easy way to request the immediate removal of a deepfake, and defines the posting of such material as a form of digital identity theft. A California law limiting the use of deepfakes in elections was signed into law last year, but was \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/08/05/elon-musk-x-court-win-california-deepfake-law-00494936\">struck down by a federal judge last summer\u003c/a> following a lawsuit by X and Elon Musk.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Future reforms\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every new state law helps give lawyers like Dordulian a new avenue to address harmful uses of deepfakes, but he said more needs to be done to help people protect themselves. He said his clients face challenges proving violation of existing laws since they require distribution of explicit materials, for example, with a messaging app or social media platform, for protections to kick in. In his experience, people who use nudify apps typically know each other, so distribution doesn’t always take place, and if it does, it can be hard to prove.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, he said, he has a client who works as a nanny who alleges that the father of the kids she takes care of made images of her using photos she posted on Instagram. The nanny found the images on his iPad. This discovery was disturbing for her and caused her emotional trauma, but since he can’t use deepfake laws, he has to sue on the basis of negligence or emotional distress, and laws that were never created to address deepfakes. Similarly, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/09/27/nudify-ai-generated-deepfake-fbi.html\">victims told CNBC last year\u003c/a> that the distinction between creating and distributing deepfakes left a gap in the law in a number of U.S. states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The law needs to keep up with what’s really happening on the ground and what women are experiencing, which is just the simple act of creation itself is the problem,” Dordulian said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An iPhone screen displays the Grok logo on the Grok AI app on January 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>California is at the forefront of passing laws to protect people from deepfakes, but existing law isn’t meeting the moment, said Jennifer Gibson, cofounder and director of \u003ca href=\"https://psst.org/\">Psst\u003c/a>, a group created a little over a year ago that provides pro bono legal services to tech and AI workers interested in whistleblowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/12/new-ai-regulation/\">California law that went into effect Jan. 1\u003c/a> protects whistleblowers inside AI companies but only if they work on catastrophic risk that can kill more than 50 people or cause more than $1 billion in damages. If the law protected people who work on deepfakes, former X employees who \u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-grok-explicit-content-data-annotation-2025-9?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email\">detailed witnessing Grok generating illegal sexually explicit material last year to Business Insider\u003c/a> would, Gibson said, have had protections if they shared the information with authorities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There needs to be a lot more protection for exactly this kind of scenario in which an insider sees that this is foreseeable, knows that this is going to happen, and they need somewhere to go to report to both to keep the company accountable and protect the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/01/california-investigates-deepfakes-elon-musk-company/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Thursday, December 25, 2025…\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you drive or walk past a public park, one of the sounds you’ll likely hear is the thwack of a bat before seeing a ball flying through the air. But at some parks in Fresno, these aren’t due to that all-American sport you may be thinking of. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some mental health clinicians are worried AI is coming for their jobs. In the Fall, more than 200 of them gathered for an online forum to learn more. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArtP-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/community/2025-10-24/with-fresnos-first-public-cricket-pitches-players-anticipate-explosion-of-the-sport\">\u003cstrong>With Fresno’s First Public Cricket Pitches, Players Anticipate ‘Explosion’ Of The Sport\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When Jajpal Singh Sidhu moved to Fresno last fall, he hardly knew anyone. Originally from Punjab, India, the 23-year-old tried to find community in a way that anyone else might: he searched for a club that played his favorite sport. There was just one problem. His favorite sport is relatively obscure in his new country. “When I was new here, [I was] trying to find people who play cricket,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cricket, like baseball, is played with a ball and a bat – but the similarities end there. The game with worldwide appeal, which was created in England centuries before baseball became one of America’s favorite sports, involving wickets instead of bases and a long, rectangular pitch instead of a diamond. In India, Sidhu played in a national cricket league, and he came to the U.S. in the hopes of continuing the sport at a competitive level. After several months of searching, he came across the Fresno Cricket Club’s Facebook page. The rest is history. “I texted them, and they said they play in the evening… They asked me, ‘you can come tomorrow and join us,’” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://cricclubs.com/fresnocricketclub\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cu>Fresno Cricket Club\u003c/u>\u003c/a> is a professional group that has been in operation since 2007. But until recently, the club didn’t have a dedicated space to play or practice, and its hundred-odd members had to travel to the south or north of the state for tournaments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that is now changing. The City of Fresno earlier this summer installed cricket pitches at two city parks: Jaswant Singh Khalra Neighborhood Park in West Fresno, and the Fresno Regional Sports Complex downtown. Baldev Birk, president of the Fresno Cricket Club, is delighted. “I think the explosion of cricket that’s about to happen here in the Central Valley is going to be amazing, and it’s going to be something amazing to watch,” Birk said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999280/ai-safety-expert-warns-parents-to-watch-kids-in-wake-of-chatbot-ban\">\u003cstrong>AI Safety Expert Warns Parents To Watch Kids In Wake Of Chatbot Ban\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A leading artificial intelligence researcher is warning that Character.AI’s plan to ban \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">chatbots for kids\u003c/a> by late November may leave them susceptible to self-harm or suicide if they detach from an AI companion too quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://publichealth.berkeley.edu/people/jodi-halpern\">Jodi Halpern\u003c/a>, a UC Berkeley bioethics professor, celebrated the ban overall, but wants parents to be on the lookout for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">emotional changes\u003c/a> or needs in the weeks following children’s separation from their chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Parents do not realize that their kids love these bots and that they might feel like their best friend just died or their boyfriend just died,” Halpern said. “Seeing how deep these attachments are and aware that at least some suicidal behavior has been associated with the abrupt loss, I want parents to know that it could be a vulnerable time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Character.AI announced its \u003ca href=\"https://blog.character.ai/u18-chat-announcement/\">decision to disable chatbots\u003c/a> for kids in late October, in response to political pressure and \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/24/magazine/character-ai-chatbot-lawsuit-teen-suicide-free-speech.html\">news reports\u003c/a> of teens who had become suicidal after prolonged use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of those teens, a 14-year-old boy from Florida, fell in love with his chatbot and spent days on end confiding in it and exchanging sexual fantasies. When his mother took away his phone as punishment for misbehaving at school, the boy became despondent, a state his mother interpreted after his death as a blend of withdrawal and grief.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Thursday, December 25, 2025…\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you drive or walk past a public park, one of the sounds you’ll likely hear is the thwack of a bat before seeing a ball flying through the air. But at some parks in Fresno, these aren’t due to that all-American sport you may be thinking of. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some mental health clinicians are worried AI is coming for their jobs. In the Fall, more than 200 of them gathered for an online forum to learn more. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArtP-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/community/2025-10-24/with-fresnos-first-public-cricket-pitches-players-anticipate-explosion-of-the-sport\">\u003cstrong>With Fresno’s First Public Cricket Pitches, Players Anticipate ‘Explosion’ Of The Sport\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When Jajpal Singh Sidhu moved to Fresno last fall, he hardly knew anyone. Originally from Punjab, India, the 23-year-old tried to find community in a way that anyone else might: he searched for a club that played his favorite sport. There was just one problem. His favorite sport is relatively obscure in his new country. “When I was new here, [I was] trying to find people who play cricket,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cricket, like baseball, is played with a ball and a bat – but the similarities end there. The game with worldwide appeal, which was created in England centuries before baseball became one of America’s favorite sports, involving wickets instead of bases and a long, rectangular pitch instead of a diamond. In India, Sidhu played in a national cricket league, and he came to the U.S. in the hopes of continuing the sport at a competitive level. After several months of searching, he came across the Fresno Cricket Club’s Facebook page. The rest is history. “I texted them, and they said they play in the evening… They asked me, ‘you can come tomorrow and join us,’” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://cricclubs.com/fresnocricketclub\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cu>Fresno Cricket Club\u003c/u>\u003c/a> is a professional group that has been in operation since 2007. But until recently, the club didn’t have a dedicated space to play or practice, and its hundred-odd members had to travel to the south or north of the state for tournaments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that is now changing. The City of Fresno earlier this summer installed cricket pitches at two city parks: Jaswant Singh Khalra Neighborhood Park in West Fresno, and the Fresno Regional Sports Complex downtown. Baldev Birk, president of the Fresno Cricket Club, is delighted. “I think the explosion of cricket that’s about to happen here in the Central Valley is going to be amazing, and it’s going to be something amazing to watch,” Birk said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999280/ai-safety-expert-warns-parents-to-watch-kids-in-wake-of-chatbot-ban\">\u003cstrong>AI Safety Expert Warns Parents To Watch Kids In Wake Of Chatbot Ban\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A leading artificial intelligence researcher is warning that Character.AI’s plan to ban \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">chatbots for kids\u003c/a> by late November may leave them susceptible to self-harm or suicide if they detach from an AI companion too quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://publichealth.berkeley.edu/people/jodi-halpern\">Jodi Halpern\u003c/a>, a UC Berkeley bioethics professor, celebrated the ban overall, but wants parents to be on the lookout for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">emotional changes\u003c/a> or needs in the weeks following children’s separation from their chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Parents do not realize that their kids love these bots and that they might feel like their best friend just died or their boyfriend just died,” Halpern said. “Seeing how deep these attachments are and aware that at least some suicidal behavior has been associated with the abrupt loss, I want parents to know that it could be a vulnerable time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Character.AI announced its \u003ca href=\"https://blog.character.ai/u18-chat-announcement/\">decision to disable chatbots\u003c/a> for kids in late October, in response to political pressure and \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/24/magazine/character-ai-chatbot-lawsuit-teen-suicide-free-speech.html\">news reports\u003c/a> of teens who had become suicidal after prolonged use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of those teens, a 14-year-old boy from Florida, fell in love with his chatbot and spent days on end confiding in it and exchanging sexual fantasies. When his mother took away his phone as punishment for misbehaving at school, the boy became despondent, a state his mother interpreted after his death as a blend of withdrawal and grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Trump’s AI Order Provokes Pushback from California Officials and Consumer Advocates",
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"content": "\u003cp>In the last decade, California has passed 42 laws to regulate artificial intelligence, more than any other state, according to \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2025-ai-index-report\">Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI\u003c/a>. So it comes as no surprise that state leaders reacted with ire to President Donald Trump’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/12/eliminating-state-law-obstruction-of-national-artificial-intelligence-policy/\">executive order\u003c/a> slapping down state efforts to regulate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The clash highlights the growing friction between California’s push for consumer protections and the tech industry’s efforts to neutralize regulation. The executive order follows \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/the-silicon-valley-campaign-to-win-trump-over-on-ai-regulation-214bd6bd\">previous failures\u003c/a> led by Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks, now the president’s AI and crypto advisor, to pass a moratorium on state AI regulation through Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump and Davis Sacks aren’t making policy — they’re running a con. And every day, they push the limits to see how far they can take it,” Gov. Gavin Newsom wrote in a statement on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As an earlier draft of the order circulated in Washington, critics warned it would neuter state laws designed to protect children and adults from the more predatory forms of commercial AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump’s executive order echoed talking points articulated by Silicon Valley leaders, including calls for a uniform federal regulatory framework, and concerns that state regulations could slow the pace of AI innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“POTUS stepping in creates space for builders to focus on innovation while Congress finishes the job,”\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/Collin_McCune/status/1999264399459066212?s=20\"> wrote\u003c/a> Collin McCune, who leads government affairs for the Menlo Park-based venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz, which is among the companies that have spent tens of millions of dollars to block or weaken Congressional action. “Now lawmakers have to act. Our standing in the global AI race—and the direct benefits Americans will see from it—depend on it,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/RapidResponse47/status/1999257391356125348\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The industry push to get the White House to supersede state legislation is “shortsighted,” said State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, who has worked to pass several of California’s state bills governing AI. “I think they’re going to pay the price in the long run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But just how big of an effect the order will have on California’s AI regulations is unclear. It includes exemptions for laws that cover child safety, data center infrastructure, state government use of AI and “other topics as shall be determined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is going to sow massive confusion in the industry,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is wondering about the future of several AI bills he co-authored, including one regulating AI companion chatbots, due to go into effect in January, which Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">signed\u003c/a> into law as part of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">broader package\u003c/a> of online safety and emerging-tech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is that affected by this? Because there’s a big part of it that deals with kids and chatbots, but there were parts of the bill that dealt with other things,” Becker said.[aside postID=forum_2010101912169 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2025/11/GettyImages-2203864303-2000x1333.jpg']The executive order is widely expected to prompt legal challenges because only Congress has the authority to override state laws. Speaking in Sacramento on Friday, California Attorney General Rob Bonta said it was too early to determine any legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where it’s headed, and what it intends to do, raises great concerns and flags. But we don’t sue until there’s action that we can take. Sometimes that’s upon the issuance of the executive order. Sometimes it’s later,” said Bonta, whose office has sued the Trump administration 49 times this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s measured stance contrasts with state lawmakers who see imminent danger in this latest move from the White House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump’s executive order is a dangerous attack on states’ constitutional authority to protect our residents from urgent AI harms,” wrote Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who has authored multiple AI bills regulating everything from algorithmic discrimination and transparency to protections for children and Hollywood creatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the tech industry lobbies for deregulation, women are being victimized by AI-powered nudification apps, artists and creators are having their livelihoods cannibalized without notice, deepfakes are being weaponized for harassment and fraud, and AI systems are perpetuating discrimination in housing, employment, and lending. These aren’t theoretical risks— they’re happening now and demand action,” Bauer-Kahan wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is not alone in its efforts to regulate AI at the state level. This year, all 50 states and territories introduced AI legislation and 38 states adopted about 100 laws, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/as-ai-tools-become-commonplace-so-do-concerns\">National Conference of State Legislatures\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This executive order is an outrageous betrayal of the states that, as Congress has stalled, have worked tirelessly to protect their residents from the very real risks of AI,” wrote James Steyer, head of Common Sense Media. The advocacy group has sponsored state bills in California and elsewhere. “Stripping states of their constitutional rights to protect their residents from unsafe AI — while holding critical broadband funding hostage, no less — erases the progress they are making and puts lives in danger,” Steyer wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>In the last decade, California has passed 42 laws to regulate artificial intelligence, more than any other state, according to \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2025-ai-index-report\">Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI\u003c/a>. So it comes as no surprise that state leaders reacted with ire to President Donald Trump’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/12/eliminating-state-law-obstruction-of-national-artificial-intelligence-policy/\">executive order\u003c/a> slapping down state efforts to regulate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The clash highlights the growing friction between California’s push for consumer protections and the tech industry’s efforts to neutralize regulation. The executive order follows \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/the-silicon-valley-campaign-to-win-trump-over-on-ai-regulation-214bd6bd\">previous failures\u003c/a> led by Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks, now the president’s AI and crypto advisor, to pass a moratorium on state AI regulation through Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump and Davis Sacks aren’t making policy — they’re running a con. And every day, they push the limits to see how far they can take it,” Gov. Gavin Newsom wrote in a statement on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>The industry push to get the White House to supersede state legislation is “shortsighted,” said State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, who has worked to pass several of California’s state bills governing AI. “I think they’re going to pay the price in the long run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But just how big of an effect the order will have on California’s AI regulations is unclear. It includes exemptions for laws that cover child safety, data center infrastructure, state government use of AI and “other topics as shall be determined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is going to sow massive confusion in the industry,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is wondering about the future of several AI bills he co-authored, including one regulating AI companion chatbots, due to go into effect in January, which Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">signed\u003c/a> into law as part of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">broader package\u003c/a> of online safety and emerging-tech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is that affected by this? Because there’s a big part of it that deals with kids and chatbots, but there were parts of the bill that dealt with other things,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The executive order is widely expected to prompt legal challenges because only Congress has the authority to override state laws. Speaking in Sacramento on Friday, California Attorney General Rob Bonta said it was too early to determine any legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where it’s headed, and what it intends to do, raises great concerns and flags. But we don’t sue until there’s action that we can take. Sometimes that’s upon the issuance of the executive order. Sometimes it’s later,” said Bonta, whose office has sued the Trump administration 49 times this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s measured stance contrasts with state lawmakers who see imminent danger in this latest move from the White House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump’s executive order is a dangerous attack on states’ constitutional authority to protect our residents from urgent AI harms,” wrote Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who has authored multiple AI bills regulating everything from algorithmic discrimination and transparency to protections for children and Hollywood creatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the tech industry lobbies for deregulation, women are being victimized by AI-powered nudification apps, artists and creators are having their livelihoods cannibalized without notice, deepfakes are being weaponized for harassment and fraud, and AI systems are perpetuating discrimination in housing, employment, and lending. These aren’t theoretical risks— they’re happening now and demand action,” Bauer-Kahan wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is not alone in its efforts to regulate AI at the state level. This year, all 50 states and territories introduced AI legislation and 38 states adopted about 100 laws, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/as-ai-tools-become-commonplace-so-do-concerns\">National Conference of State Legislatures\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This executive order is an outrageous betrayal of the states that, as Congress has stalled, have worked tirelessly to protect their residents from the very real risks of AI,” wrote James Steyer, head of Common Sense Media. The advocacy group has sponsored state bills in California and elsewhere. “Stripping states of their constitutional rights to protect their residents from unsafe AI — while holding critical broadband funding hostage, no less — erases the progress they are making and puts lives in danger,” Steyer wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>A member of a Bay Area group that says they are trying to prevent artificial intelligence from ending humanity was again arrested while protesting outside \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s San Francisco headquarters Thursday in apparent violation of a court order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guido Reichstadter was booked into San Francisco County Jail on Thursday evening, records show, for allegedly violating a judge’s order that barred him from the premises following his previous arrest with members of Stop AI. The group \u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/openais-sam-altman-served-subpoena-141003524.html\">made national headlines\u003c/a> last month when a member of their defense team served a subpoena to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman while he was onstage at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater with Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day is an opportunity to collectively reclaim our integrity and our sanity — to draw the line which says this far and no farther, to end the race to superintelligence — but these days are dwindling rapidly and we do not know which day will be the last before that opportunity is lost to us forever,” Reichstadter \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/wolflovesmelon/status/1996584982396211543\">posted on X\u003c/a> Wednesday while announcing he was planning to continue to protest OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter and Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner — along with co-defendant Wynd Kaufmyn — are awaiting trial for trespassing and other charges related to their continued protests outside OpenAI’s offices starting last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Altman have attempted to have his subpoena to testify at the criminal trial thrown out, but on Nov. 21, Judge Maria E. Evangelista ruled that that decision should be made by the judge who will be presiding over the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the trial was set to start Friday, it was pushed back to Jan. 29. Records show Reichstadter remained in San Francisco County Jail without bond as of Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066267\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066267\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner speaks into a bullhorn outside OpenAI’s headquarters in San Francisco on Feb. 22, 2025. A bench warrant has been issued for Kirchner, who did not appear for a court appearance for trespassing and other charges late last month. Kirchner recently separated from the group. \u003ccite>(Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also on Nov. 21, Evangelista issued a bench warrant for Kirchner’s arrest when he failed to show for a court hearing. That same day, OpenAI’s offices were locked down following threats authorities believed to have come from Kirchner, as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-office-lockdown-threat-san-francisco/?_sp=8f666012-7ff2-4d29-8dc9-047bbae3c137.1764640349753\">first reported by Wired\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 22, Stop AI \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/StopAI_Info/status/1992286218802073981\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that Kirchner assaulted a fellow member of the group. The attack and statements he made caused them to “fear that he might procure a weapon that he could use against employees of companies pursuing artificial superintelligence,” the post said, adding they still care about Kirchner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kirchner has since \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/No_AGI_/status/1991833980795326712\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that he is no longer associated with Stop AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three co-defendants readily admit they prevented business operations at OpenAI as charged. Rather than setting out to prove their innocence, they said they were taking their misdemeanor charges to court to further raise awareness of their cause. They, among others who express extreme caution around the current development of AI, say there could soon be a point of no return between human intelligence and the artificial intelligence it is rapidly developing and deploying.[aside postID=news_12058013 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GavinNewsomAISF2.jpg']“The actions that we took from October to February – nonviolently blocking the doors of OpenAI — have gotten attention around the world,” Reichstadter said. “They are the reason why Sam Altman was served a subpoena to appear to testify to the fact that he is consciously endangering the existence of humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to requests for comment. An attorney representing Altman, Gabriel Bronshteyn, declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Stop AI said the trial “will be the first time in human history where a jury of normal people are asked about the extinction threat that AI poses to humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI consists mostly of a small group of people who once lived together in a house in West Oakland. Reichstadter said he left his two teenage children in Miami to move to Oakland to join the fight against the development of potentially harmful AI, while Kirchner — a former electrical engineering tech and neuroscience student — moved from Seattle to found Stop AI in the Bay Area last year. Kaufmyn spent more than 40 years teaching computer sciences at City College of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI members often cite Nobel laureate and “godfather of AI” Geoffrey Hinton, who has said there’s a 20% chance that forms of AI currently being developed could “\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/17/ai-godfather-geoffrey-hinton-theres-a-chance-that-ai-could-displace-humans.html\">wipe us out\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of specific concern is artificial general intelligence, which OpenAI is trying to develop and defines as “AI systems that are generally smarter than humans.” \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/artificial-general-intelligence\">Other definitions\u003c/a> suggest it applies to the moment when AI learns to solve problems beyond the limitations it has today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While OpenAI says it is developing AGI so it “benefits all of humanity,” Stop AI wants the government to shut it down immediately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no way to prove that something smarter than us will stay safe forever and won’t eventually want something that will lead to our extinction, similar to how we’ve caused the extinction of many less intelligent species, and that’s the risk here,” Kirchner said in an interview at a protest outside OpenAI in February. “They don’t have proof that it will stay safe forever. They’re literally building Skynet in there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even while already facing charges from protests in 2024, Stop AI members continued to protest OpenAI, including in February when they chained the doors to the company’s headquarters on 3rd Street near Chase Center and sat in front of the doors until police removed some of them from the premises.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re gonna lock the doors now to this company,” Kirchner said through a bullhorn. “This company should not exist if it’s trying to build something that they admit could kill us all. So we’re gonna put our bodies on the line and try to prevent them from building that AGI system. And we invite everyone who thinks that what they’re doing is not OK to join us in this act of civil disobedience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The protest occurred on a Saturday, when OpenAI’s offices were closed.[aside postID=news_12063401 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/OpenAiLawsuitsGetty.jpg']“What’s going on in this business is not a legitimate business. It’s a threat to all of us. We have a right to protect the ones we love. We have a right to protect our own lives. We have the right of necessity to take nonviolent direct action to stop an imminent threat to our lives,” Reichstadter said before putting a steel chain through the handles of the front door of the OpenAI offices and locking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, he and others sat in front of the door as San Francisco police arrived and detained several people, including Reichstadter and Kaufmyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of the court hearing on Nov. 21, Kaufmyn and Reichstadter spoke at a press conference about their concerns around AI, its use in war and its potential dangers to future generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s so many reasons to be concerned about AI, but when I went to these presentations, I learned that the fate of humanity, the existence of every human life on Earth, is at stake, and the time frame is much closer than you would think,” Kaufmyn said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaufmyn said she’s not afraid to go to jail for protesting OpenAI if it benefits humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We fully believe there is a credible risk of human extinction within the next one to three years,” Kaufmyn said. “Imagine if you believed that, as I do, as my co-defendants do, what would you do? We — with heavy hearts and fear — decided that we need to do everything we can to stop this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter said he’s away from his children because he wants to guarantee them a future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are being pushed towards the edge of a cliff by the reckless actions of these companies, and no one knows how close that edge is,” he said. “It’s our responsibility — everyone who understands this threat — to take direct nonviolent action immediately to end the race to super intelligence, the suicide race, which these companies are leading humanity to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A member of a Bay Area group that says they are trying to prevent artificial intelligence from ending humanity was again arrested while protesting outside \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s San Francisco headquarters Thursday in apparent violation of a court order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guido Reichstadter was booked into San Francisco County Jail on Thursday evening, records show, for allegedly violating a judge’s order that barred him from the premises following his previous arrest with members of Stop AI. The group \u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/openais-sam-altman-served-subpoena-141003524.html\">made national headlines\u003c/a> last month when a member of their defense team served a subpoena to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman while he was onstage at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater with Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day is an opportunity to collectively reclaim our integrity and our sanity — to draw the line which says this far and no farther, to end the race to superintelligence — but these days are dwindling rapidly and we do not know which day will be the last before that opportunity is lost to us forever,” Reichstadter \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/wolflovesmelon/status/1996584982396211543\">posted on X\u003c/a> Wednesday while announcing he was planning to continue to protest OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter and Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner — along with co-defendant Wynd Kaufmyn — are awaiting trial for trespassing and other charges related to their continued protests outside OpenAI’s offices starting last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Altman have attempted to have his subpoena to testify at the criminal trial thrown out, but on Nov. 21, Judge Maria E. Evangelista ruled that that decision should be made by the judge who will be presiding over the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the trial was set to start Friday, it was pushed back to Jan. 29. Records show Reichstadter remained in San Francisco County Jail without bond as of Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066267\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066267\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner speaks into a bullhorn outside OpenAI’s headquarters in San Francisco on Feb. 22, 2025. A bench warrant has been issued for Kirchner, who did not appear for a court appearance for trespassing and other charges late last month. Kirchner recently separated from the group. \u003ccite>(Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also on Nov. 21, Evangelista issued a bench warrant for Kirchner’s arrest when he failed to show for a court hearing. That same day, OpenAI’s offices were locked down following threats authorities believed to have come from Kirchner, as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-office-lockdown-threat-san-francisco/?_sp=8f666012-7ff2-4d29-8dc9-047bbae3c137.1764640349753\">first reported by Wired\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 22, Stop AI \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/StopAI_Info/status/1992286218802073981\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that Kirchner assaulted a fellow member of the group. The attack and statements he made caused them to “fear that he might procure a weapon that he could use against employees of companies pursuing artificial superintelligence,” the post said, adding they still care about Kirchner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kirchner has since \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/No_AGI_/status/1991833980795326712\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that he is no longer associated with Stop AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three co-defendants readily admit they prevented business operations at OpenAI as charged. Rather than setting out to prove their innocence, they said they were taking their misdemeanor charges to court to further raise awareness of their cause. They, among others who express extreme caution around the current development of AI, say there could soon be a point of no return between human intelligence and the artificial intelligence it is rapidly developing and deploying.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“The actions that we took from October to February – nonviolently blocking the doors of OpenAI — have gotten attention around the world,” Reichstadter said. “They are the reason why Sam Altman was served a subpoena to appear to testify to the fact that he is consciously endangering the existence of humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to requests for comment. An attorney representing Altman, Gabriel Bronshteyn, declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Stop AI said the trial “will be the first time in human history where a jury of normal people are asked about the extinction threat that AI poses to humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI consists mostly of a small group of people who once lived together in a house in West Oakland. Reichstadter said he left his two teenage children in Miami to move to Oakland to join the fight against the development of potentially harmful AI, while Kirchner — a former electrical engineering tech and neuroscience student — moved from Seattle to found Stop AI in the Bay Area last year. Kaufmyn spent more than 40 years teaching computer sciences at City College of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI members often cite Nobel laureate and “godfather of AI” Geoffrey Hinton, who has said there’s a 20% chance that forms of AI currently being developed could “\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/17/ai-godfather-geoffrey-hinton-theres-a-chance-that-ai-could-displace-humans.html\">wipe us out\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of specific concern is artificial general intelligence, which OpenAI is trying to develop and defines as “AI systems that are generally smarter than humans.” \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/artificial-general-intelligence\">Other definitions\u003c/a> suggest it applies to the moment when AI learns to solve problems beyond the limitations it has today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While OpenAI says it is developing AGI so it “benefits all of humanity,” Stop AI wants the government to shut it down immediately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no way to prove that something smarter than us will stay safe forever and won’t eventually want something that will lead to our extinction, similar to how we’ve caused the extinction of many less intelligent species, and that’s the risk here,” Kirchner said in an interview at a protest outside OpenAI in February. “They don’t have proof that it will stay safe forever. They’re literally building Skynet in there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even while already facing charges from protests in 2024, Stop AI members continued to protest OpenAI, including in February when they chained the doors to the company’s headquarters on 3rd Street near Chase Center and sat in front of the doors until police removed some of them from the premises.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re gonna lock the doors now to this company,” Kirchner said through a bullhorn. “This company should not exist if it’s trying to build something that they admit could kill us all. So we’re gonna put our bodies on the line and try to prevent them from building that AGI system. And we invite everyone who thinks that what they’re doing is not OK to join us in this act of civil disobedience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The protest occurred on a Saturday, when OpenAI’s offices were closed.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“What’s going on in this business is not a legitimate business. It’s a threat to all of us. We have a right to protect the ones we love. We have a right to protect our own lives. We have the right of necessity to take nonviolent direct action to stop an imminent threat to our lives,” Reichstadter said before putting a steel chain through the handles of the front door of the OpenAI offices and locking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, he and others sat in front of the door as San Francisco police arrived and detained several people, including Reichstadter and Kaufmyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of the court hearing on Nov. 21, Kaufmyn and Reichstadter spoke at a press conference about their concerns around AI, its use in war and its potential dangers to future generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s so many reasons to be concerned about AI, but when I went to these presentations, I learned that the fate of humanity, the existence of every human life on Earth, is at stake, and the time frame is much closer than you would think,” Kaufmyn said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaufmyn said she’s not afraid to go to jail for protesting OpenAI if it benefits humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We fully believe there is a credible risk of human extinction within the next one to three years,” Kaufmyn said. “Imagine if you believed that, as I do, as my co-defendants do, what would you do? We — with heavy hearts and fear — decided that we need to do everything we can to stop this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter said he’s away from his children because he wants to guarantee them a future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are being pushed towards the edge of a cliff by the reckless actions of these companies, and no one knows how close that edge is,” he said. “It’s our responsibility — everyone who understands this threat — to take direct nonviolent action immediately to end the race to super intelligence, the suicide race, which these companies are leading humanity to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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