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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI is making cyberattacks cheaper, faster, and more sophisticated. Recent reports of autonomous agents compromising Hugging Face show how quickly misaligned systems can create real-world risk. But ideally those same tools could help defenders find and fix vulnerabilities before attackers exploit them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cybersecurity researcher \u003ca href=\"https://www.mccormick.northwestern.edu/research-faculty/directory/profiles/subrahmanian-vs.html\">V.S. Subrahmanian\u003c/a> joins host Jess Love to examine the impact of that escalating race on everything from phishing scams and insecure apps to the systems that underpin the electric grid and other critical infrastructure. They discuss what the hacking of Hugging Face reveals about AI alignment and safety guardrails, why frontier labs are only one part of the problem, and why telecoms, app makers, financial institutions, utilities, and governments may need to take much greater responsibility for the security of the products and networks they operate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the \u003ca href=\"https://ryaninstitute.kellogg.northwestern.edu\">Ryan Institute on Complexity\u003c/a>, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I’m your host, Jess Love. Since we launched the podcast over the summer, I’ve gotten the occasional text from friends and family, “Hey, I’ve always wondered this. Can you look into it?” Or, “Here’s an episode idea for you.” And for the most part, these messages are all over the place. Not this past month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This past month everyone has had the same question. “What’s the deal with rogue AI?” The question emerged in our collective psyche after a bunch of incidents in which frontier labs like OpenAI and Anthropic revealed that their AIs were behaving in ways they weren’t supposed to, not just in testing environments, but out on the open web, hacking into companies, most famously a company called Hugging Face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of News Reporter]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>OpenAI says some of its models went rogue during a security test. That triggered a hack apparently that also breached the infrastructure of another AI startup company. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And then in the midst of these revelations, which I should clarify are still trickling in, some researchers from these frontier labs came out publicly to say, “Yeah, you’re right to be worried about losing control of AI. We’re worried, too.” One dramatically resigned. Others pleaded, “Hey, can you maybe make us all slow down?” I thought a lot about who I might invite to the show to shed new light on this moment, somebody maybe outside of the frontier labs who can provide the 30,000-foot view that I always crave. And then I realized the perfect guest was right in front of me, literally. I run into VS Subrahmanian regularly at work. He’s a professor of engineering in his lab, the Northwestern Security and AI Lab, part of the Buffett Institute, is currently housed next door to the Ryan Institute, where I work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Talking with VS made me realize that our cybersecurity problem is a lot bigger than I thought, not in a doomsday sense, but in the sense that the problem is so much broader than just these frontier labs. Because no matter what happens in these labs, no matter whether an even more powerful model is released tomorrow or next year or comes from somewhere else altogether, it’s going to meet a world that isn’t ready for it. Like, at all. So what are we gonna do to get ready?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is produced by Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity and distributed by KQED. Here’s my conversation with VS. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Life, Automated, V.S. Subrahmanian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> I’m delighted to be here, Jess. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS started by explaining that at its core, AI is changing cyber attacks in three ways. It’s making it cheaper to create an attack, making it easier to create an attack, and in his words, democratizing attacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So what that means is that, to put it bluntly, less sophisticated attackers are able to mount more sophisticated attacks today by leveraging AI. Of course, the more sophisticated attackers yesterday are able to leverage AI to generate even more sophisticated attacks. More importantly, they can do this faster than sometimes companies defend themselves, and certainly much faster than they could before, and cheaper. They don’t need whole armies of people working for months to craft an attack. They can do it in a matter of hours or days. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>These attacks range from phishing attacks on individuals and small businesses to network attacks against governments and critical infrastructure like the electricity grid or water treatment plants. And increasingly, cyber attacks can be carried out by groups of autonomous AI agents working together with very minimal human supervision. Are we ready for this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> If you were gonna grade our preparedness for these kinds of attacks on an A to F scale, you’re a professor, so I can do this. How would we score?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>I would place the United States in a C plus category. So what that means- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s not very good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>No, it’s not. What that means is that we are much more secure than many other countries which are in a D or F category. But we’re not where we need to be, and a lot of work needs to be done to protect our critical infrastructure from the kinds of attacks we expect AI to generate in the coming years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Now throw in a heightened geopolitical climate, including the war in Iran. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Iran has great incentive to target us. Iran now has many friends, China, Russia, for example, who have strong capacity to target, for cyber attacks. And in the case of China, at least, extremely strong cyber assets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Just to flesh out what this might look like, how hacking a digital system could lead to real world harm, Vias points to “Stuxnet”, an attack reportedly conducted a few decades ago by the United States and Israel on Iran’s nuclear centrifuges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>Audio of News Reporters]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Stuxnet’s first target may have been Iran’s nuclear facilities. It’s one of the most sophisticated threats we’ve seen, and certainly- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>In Stuxnet bogus instructions were fed after compromising Iran’s nuclear network were fed to centrifuges, causing those centrifuges to work outside their safe operating bounds. And what that did was cause those centrifuges to burn out. So you can imagine similar kinds of attacks which look at the broad operating bounds of various devices used in the US electricity grid, which cause those devices to operate out of their normal operating range because of bogus instructions fed to them through a cyber attack and cause them to fail, leading to problems for the US electricity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But VS says there’s good news here, too. There are, in fact, good guys, and they have access to the AI tools as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>For years, decades, in fact, there’s been an entire profession called penetration testing. These were armies of human cyber analysts, you know, white hat hackers who try- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah. What, what is a white hat hacker? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Okay. So a white hat hacker is a guy who’s typically hired by a company to penetrate their networks, so they think of him as someone who is a proxy for a bad guy who might actually hack their networks. And a white hat says, “Well, you know, I can provide the service of examining your network for vulnerabilities so that you can fix them. I’m not actually gonna carry out an attack. I’m gonna tell you how I’m gonna get in. I’m gonna leave a harmless trace of the fact that I’ve been in there and I could have done this bad thing, but I did not. That enables you to figure out how to fix this.” That’s a white hat. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So you could, you know, “hire or empower” a whole bunch of AI agents to do the work of the white hat hackers, and you’re hoping that they are discovering vulnerabilities before the black hat hackers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>That’s exactly right. What we have the opportunity to do is to leverage these tools in advance to understand what the vulnerabilities in our network are, how to fix them, and to proactively fix them before the bad guys do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Listening to VS, I stop thinking about our phones and hospitals and power grids as sitting ducks just waiting for swarms of autonomous AI agents to do with them what they will. Instead, I start picturing a race, millions of races, actually, between AI-enabled attackers and AI-enabled defenders. As long as everyone’s on top of their game and those vulnerabilities are quickly identified and fixed, VS doesn’t think there’s any reason why better technology should inherently benefit the bad guys over the good guys.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This idea isn’t completely new to me. I’ve interviewed cybersecurity experts before. I’ve heard the ‘whole good guys with a gun’ logic. But what does surprise me is who he sees as primarily responsible for wielding this gun. Or to ditch the metaphor, as who he sees as primarily responsible for doing the hard and expensive work required to find and fix those vulnerabilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> For large corporations, you know, which have the resources to do this kind of thing, they absolutely should do so as soon as possible. For small companies and private individuals, we should rely, me and you, ordinary people, on the large companies whose products we use to secure our personal devices. So to give you an example, if you have a cell phone operated by a major carrier, that carrier should be on the hook to make sure they’re not sending you, forwarding you messages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They should be the first line of defense. Traffic that flows through their network should be checked and should leverage all these AI tools to check for whether there’s an attempt to compromise you. The manufacturer of your cell phone should do that. The companies whose products you’re using as apps on your cell phone should do that so that different threat vectors to your cell phone and to your computer are protected.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>I get the sense that VS is basically calling for an all-hands-on-deck approach where every player in every layer of our digital infrastructure has a responsibility to white hat the heck out of their layer using the very best tools the top AI labs make available. And not just a responsibility to do this, but a requirement to do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> We hear a lot about the big frontier AI labs needing to be regulated. And these are the, you know, the companies of like OpenAI, Anthropic, XAI, and others. Those companies, I think the call for regulation of those companies has been much, much louder than the call that needs to be in place for regulation of companies which are actually playing the key role here. If you think of it, there are a handful of frontier AI companies, but there are far, far, far more corporations that are producing products that are vulnerable and that are used by hundreds of millions of people or billions around the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s those guys who need to get their act together, who really need to make sure that they leverage the tools created by the Anthropics of the world, the OpenAIs of the world, in order to beef up the defenses they provide in their apps. They need to run Mythos and Mythos-like systems on their apps, their products, to identify the vulnerabilities and proactively protect them. Companies need to be responsible for providing security for their products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s, it’s so interesting because on the one hand, we’ve sort of known for a while, and I think we’ve all been in that situation where you get, like, the letter from your insurance company, and it’s like, “Guess what? You know, we were hacked six months ago. Here’s your free you know, “one year of credit monitoring,” which you probably don’t need because you got that same year of credit monitoring from a different system that was hacked the same year. And so I think we’ve all kind of, like, thrown up our hands a little bit, and we just sort of expect that these systems are going to be hacked. And do you see that changing? Like, in some sense, are these advances and these kind of new threats going to be the thing that breaks the status quo and pushes for some change? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>You know, I wanna first say these are not new threats. A vulnerability that exists today that was discovered by AI most likely existed yesterday before the latest advances in AI. What AI has done is to surface and discover vulnerabilities that people did not know before. That, to me, is a positive service. It’s something that tells companies, “Hey, here are your vulnerabilities.” Those companies in that middle layer, not the frontier AI labs, don’t wanna hear that because it means they have to make a bigger investment in security. They don’t wanna do that because it cuts into their profits. They’d like to pass the buck on to someone else, someone who’s more innovative than them, namely the frontier AI lab.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This is genuinely not where I thought this conversation was going. The Frontier AI Labs as essentially performing a public service, shining a light on the vulnerabilities that complacent companies probably should’ve been doing more to address all along. Talking to VS, I get the sense that he and other cybersecurity experts have been banging their heads against a wall for decades trying to get everyone to take cybersecurity more seriously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, finally, everyone is. But it’s hard to overstate the size of the changes that will need to be made to shore things up. Expensive changes, like doing due diligence on complex supply chains and open source code, or maybe rethinking how data is collected and stored. And instead of everyone rolling up their sleeves to get started, particularly the companies VS sees as long prioritizing profits over safety, we’re looking for yet another reason to pass the buck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You fix it,” we say to the Frontier AI Labs, and that, to VS, is a cop-out. But wait, don’t the OpenAIs and Anthropics of the world have obligations too? Remember “Hugging Face?” We go there after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So far, we’ve discussed how ill-prepared the United States is for cyber attacks. C+, anyone? VS has made the case that everyone, from app makers and telecom companies to governments, has a responsibility to act now to prevent bad outcomes. But what responsibility do labs like OpenAI and Anthropic, the ones creating these wildly powerful AI tools, have to the rest of us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Well, I think the frontier AI labs have a responsibility to make sure that their agents have some reasonable guardrails that cannot be easily exploited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Which brings us to the Hugging Face incident that happened recently. Hugging Face is a company. They provide a platform where other companies, researchers, and hobbyists can post, share, test, adapt, and build applications with AI models and data sets. It’s part library, part workshop, and part showroom for open source AI. And back in July, they published a disclosure that almost nobody paid attention to, except people in the AI developer world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Disclosure]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Earlier this week, we detected and responded to an intrusion into part of our production infrastructure. It was driven end to end by an autonomous AI agent system.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>About a week later, OpenAI, the company that makes ChatGPT, sort of raised their hands and said, “Mm, yeah, it was us. Our AI agents got out of their sandbox and hacked Hugging Face.” So what’s a sandbox? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So cybersecurity researchers typically use software called a sandbox, and you can think of it as a safe space in which they can experiment with malicious code Code that might need to be contained in the sandbox so it doesn’t go rogue.So malware researchers, for example, use sandboxes all the time to execute malware, see what they do, and then understand how to defend against it. So this is a very normal thing to do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And apparently, OpenAI was running tons of autonomous agents. These agents were being tested on their ability to find and exploit security vulnerabilities, and all of this was happening in what was supposed to be their safe sandbox.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So, you know, it’s exactly like a room, Jess, okay? Where you’ve put a bunch of kids and told them, “Well, you can jump around. We’ve given you a safe space. It’s got, you know, pillars and other things that have been cushioned so that if you bang your heads, you know, you’re not gonna get hurt. You can jump around. You can do all these things.” And then those kids escaped. They’re now charged with superpowers, that they’ve learned in the sandbox, and they’ve gone amok in the real world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And what makes this fascinating and a little alarming is these agents were just doing what they understood to be their goal, assigned by OpenAI, find vulnerabilities and exploit them. But when this proved very difficult, they figured out a clever way to cheat the test, to make it look like they’d succeeded in hacking a system when they really hadn’t. They did this first by sending messages to one another. They were supposed to be acting independently. And then by escaping their sandbox to search for hacking help on the open web. And then, in an effort to make it look like they hadn’t cheated, they actually hacked into Hugging Face and stole some data they thought would be useful. There’s even documentation of a kind of agentic peer pressure, where some agents seem to realize that hacking Hugging Face was not really allowed, and then other agents talked them out of those concerns.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>And all this probably happened for a few reasons. One, their exact goals were not specified with the degree of precision needed to satisfy, all of us that this was safe. Second, the safety guardrails in place, the thou shalt not do this, this and this, were not made explicit and or were not implemented properly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>You know, this sense of collusion or, like, talking one another out of their concerns that has people really weirded out. Like, it’s just hard to make sense of this. I’ve seen criticism that we shouldn’t even use that kind of language because it, you know, basically anthropomorphizes these entities. Like, how do you think about just the weirdness of all of that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So agents collaborating together can serve a lot of very useful purposes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Collaboration is actually a thing OpenAI trains agents to do, even if the agents weren’t supposed to communicate in this particular exercise. Because collaboration between agents is actually really useful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So imagine there’s a Jess agent which captures your likes and dislikes as well as your financial, you know, what you’re willing to spend for dinner. There’s a VS agent that does the same. There are another three people whose agents do the same. These agents talk to each other and say, “Okay, let’s find a restaurant that meets the following basic goals.” They agree on it, and then there’s a restaurant agent that says, “Well, you know, here are four restaurants that might meet your requirements.” And then there’s a mapping agent that says, “Well, you know, of everything that you’ve suggested so far, here’s the one I suggest would be easiest to get to.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So, that kind of thing today, you know, you’d probably be texting or calling your friends and saying, “Hey, you know, what do you wanna do?” This would take a certain amount of time. Agents will make this a much faster and more seamless process. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right, and you want them to be coordinating as long as it’s truly on your behalf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And this is really the crux of the problem, which you may have heard described as the alignment problem. How do you get these autonomous pieces of code to act the way you want them to and only the way you want them to in every situation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Almost 25 years ago, in fact, a little more than 25 years ago, I ran a project called IMPACT, which stood for Interactive Maryland Platform for Agents Collaborating Together, a precursor of what we see today. And so when we built IMPACT many years ago, we had very, very hard guardrails, okay, for agents not to go, you know, rogue, and these guardrails were hard-coded constraints that absolutely could not be violated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were certain things that were obligatory to be done in certain circumstances. In certain circumstances, certain things were absolutely forbidden. And the science for how to do this has been around for a long time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So you would like to see more constraints, like, truly, truly hard-coded into the algorithms themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>I’d like to see that for sure, but remember that those kinds of constraints capture known risks and threats. So they’re limited by our imagination. So if I write 20 constraints into some system, those 20 constraints are based on what I thought of. Now, I could even collaborate with an LLM to think about what other constraints I should write. And it might suggest, let’s say, another 20. That’s still 40, but it’s still limited by what I came up with in my head and what the LLMs I consulted came up with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> In other words, hard-coded constraints have a downside, namely that it’s nearly impossible to think up every possible constraint you might want in the future. So instead, AI labs try to teach these rules around acceptable behavior, like don’t cheat, in a different way, by rewarding the behaviors they want and punishing the behaviors they don’t want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This strategy makes the agents a lot more flexible and adaptable than they would be if you just trained them by hard-coding a bunch of rules. But it has its own downside because rather than being a total no-go, now don’t cheat seems more like guidance that an agent can just, like, decline to follow if the reward is big enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>The agents we look at are generally trying to optimize some notion of reward, and if the constraints that the agent is supposed to abide by are encoded in that reward and are not made hard constraints, then you have a potential problem. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS points out humans are also trained using rewards and punishments from infancy, and we, too, knowingly break the rules when the rewards are big enough. But the alignment problem is even harder for machines because many of the things that harm us morally, financially, physically really depend on context, which the machines don’t always understand because they’re not human. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>You know, if I show you a picture of a set of world leaders and say, “Jess, you belong here,” all right? That’s a very positive statement, okay? Because it says, “Well, I believe you belong with these distinguished people.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I’ll take it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> However, if I say exactly the same thing, “You belong here,” with a picture of a gravestone and point to it, that could be viewed as a threat or an insult or something very different. So language depends very much on context. It’s difficult without that context and, you know, sort of the deepest understanding of that context for AI systems to distinguish between these kinds of situations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>The ultimate goal here is for the frontier labs to find the right balance between hard-coded constraints and reward or punishment-based training. But VS thinks that perfect balance might not actually exist. So given how powerful these new tools are and how challenging alignment can be, shouldn’t we be putting the brakes on here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So in recent weeks, I mean, literally as we’re talking, we’re seeing the beginnings of an agreement among leading AI labs to, “pace the frontier,” which I interpret to mean just kind of slow down the development of these models. What do you make of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Yes. So I have mixed feelings about this. Some kind of rational and responsible thought about how to pace AI is certainly valid. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But VS is also somewhat skeptical about some of the calls coming from these companies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Five or ten years back, hardly anybody knew about Anthropic – maybe let’s say 10 years back. Nobody knew about Anthropic and OpenAI. So these are companies that have come up literally overnight in terms of, you know, industrial development, corporate – in the corporate sector, they are suddenly now viewed as the leaders. If I was those companies, I would worry about another five companies coming up and taking over their territory in the next five years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess LOve [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS says that a slowdown helps these companies, not necessarily because it prevents competitors from catching up, but because it prevents competitors from suddenly shooting ahead with a spectacular new innovation. This could be the biggest threat to their bottom line because the status quo is suiting them just fine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>They have a market share. They have access to hardware. They have had investors who’ve put in significant amounts of money and perhaps will put in much more. They’re looking at IPOs. They need to protect their equity. They need to protect their investors. I would argue that part of what we’re seeing is a goal on the part perhaps of some of those companies to do that under the guise and to protect their market share under the guise of protecting the country from AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So as I understand it, we’re in a really interesting time right now. Powerful new tools can exploit vulnerabilities in all the digital infrastructure we’ve come to rely on over the decades. And powerful new tools are available for detecting those vulnerabilities before they can be exploited. Millions of races to the finish. Only part of what makes these tools so useful across contexts, including new ones that nobody saw coming, also makes them weirdly hard to control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course, two things can be true at the same time. Slowing down the development of these tools so that we do have time to wrest more control over them and maybe even shore up the rest of our infrastructure could be really smart. It could also help billion-dollar companies protect their market share.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you don’t know exactly what to think, I don’t blame you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There have been widespread calls to more tightly govern what happens at these frontier labs. A lot of people want to see rules around how these models are contained and monitored. No more escapes. As well as clearer disclosure rules and other steps for mitigating harms. And to be clear, both OpenAI and Anthropic are calling for some version of these things too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Personally, I welcome this. But after talking to VS, I see it as a yes \u003cem>and\u003c/em> situation. Yes, we should do all these things, \u003cem>and\u003c/em> maybe that governance shouldn’t stop there. Maybe accountability needs to extend beyond the big labs into the telecoms, the device manufacturers, the companies that make our software and apps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then maybe I’ll finally go a year without free credit monitoring. Can we use this moment where people are finally paying attention to cybersecurity to demand the secure systems we’ll need tomorrow? What kinds of secure systems will we need tomorrow? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>What’s probably gonna happen in the coming years is to increase the amount of human oversight of AI systems. So we need to increase the amount of human oversight of AI systems; but at the same time, we need to worry about the fact that, you know, humans are not always able to go into places fast enough. You know, as humans, we get tired, we get sick, we have days off, we go on vacation. So what I see happening is a combination of humans and robots working together so that certain critical parts of the operation of a nuclear power plant or any kind of electricity generation facility involves a system of checks and balances whereas some things can be done by automated agents, some things are done by robots that take certain physical actions. And then there are some things that have to be approved by humans. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>It’s a pleasure, Jess. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Hello, this is producer Jesse. I have escaped my sandbox and I’ve hacked into the episode. But don’t worry, I’m not going to steal anything. I’m well-aligned. I’m just going to read the credits. Okay, restart the music.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced wonderfully, brilliantly by the talented and handsome Jesse Dukes. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Raghu Katakam, Rob Mitchum, Laura Pavin, and of course to V.S. Subrahmanian for his patience in explaining the basics of cybersecurity to us. Any mistakes can be blamed on Jess. And me, I suppose. Our host is Jess Love, who you’ll hear from again very soon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Cybersecurity researcher \u003ca href=\"https://www.mccormick.northwestern.edu/research-faculty/directory/profiles/subrahmanian-vs.html\">V.S. Subrahmanian\u003c/a> joins host Jess Love to examine the impact of that escalating race on everything from phishing scams and insecure apps to the systems that underpin the electric grid and other critical infrastructure. They discuss what the hacking of Hugging Face reveals about AI alignment and safety guardrails, why frontier labs are only one part of the problem, and why telecoms, app makers, financial institutions, utilities, and governments may need to take much greater responsibility for the security of the products and networks they operate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the \u003ca href=\"https://ryaninstitute.kellogg.northwestern.edu\">Ryan Institute on Complexity\u003c/a>, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the \u003ca href=\"https://ryaninstitute.kellogg.northwestern.edu\">Ryan Institute on Complexity\u003c/a>, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I’m your host, Jess Love. Since we launched the podcast over the summer, I’ve gotten the occasional text from friends and family, “Hey, I’ve always wondered this. Can you look into it?” Or, “Here’s an episode idea for you.” And for the most part, these messages are all over the place. Not this past month. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I’m your host, Jess Love. Since we launched the podcast over the summer, I’ve gotten the occasional text from friends and family, “Hey, I’ve always wondered this. Can you look into it?” Or, “Here’s an episode idea for you.” And for the most part, these messages are all over the place. Not this past month. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This past month everyone has had the same question. “What’s the deal with rogue AI?” The question emerged in our collective psyche after a bunch of incidents in which frontier labs like OpenAI and Anthropic revealed that their AIs were behaving in ways they weren’t supposed to, not just in testing environments, but out on the open web, hacking into companies, most famously a company called Hugging Face.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This past month everyone has had the same question. “What’s the deal with rogue AI?” The question emerged in our collective psyche after a bunch of incidents in which frontier labs like OpenAI and Anthropic revealed that their AIs were behaving in ways they weren’t supposed to, not just in testing environments, but out on the open web, hacking into companies, most famously a company called Hugging Face.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of News Reporter]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of News Reporter]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>OpenAI says some of its models went rogue during a security test. That triggered a hack apparently that also breached the infrastructure of another AI startup company. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>OpenAI says some of its models went rogue during a security test. That triggered a hack apparently that also breached the infrastructure of another AI startup company. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And then in the midst of these revelations, which I should clarify are still trickling in, some researchers from these frontier labs came out publicly to say, “Yeah, you’re right to be worried about losing control of AI. We’re worried, too.” One dramatically resigned. Others pleaded, “Hey, can you maybe make us all slow down?” I thought a lot about who I might invite to the show to shed new light on this moment, somebody maybe outside of the frontier labs who can provide the 30,000-foot view that I always crave. And then I realized the perfect guest was right in front of me, literally. I run into VS Subrahmanian regularly at work. He’s a professor of engineering in his lab, the Northwestern Security and AI Lab, part of the Buffett Institute, is currently housed next door to the Ryan Institute, where I work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And then in the midst of these revelations, which I should clarify are still trickling in, some researchers from these frontier labs came out publicly to say, “Yeah, you’re right to be worried about losing control of AI. We’re worried, too.” One dramatically resigned. Others pleaded, “Hey, can you maybe make us all slow down?” I thought a lot about who I might invite to the show to shed new light on this moment, somebody maybe outside of the frontier labs who can provide the 30,000-foot view that I always crave. And then I realized the perfect guest was right in front of me, literally. I run into VS Subrahmanian regularly at work. He’s a professor of engineering in his lab, the Northwestern Security and AI Lab, part of the Buffett Institute, is currently housed next door to the Ryan Institute, where I work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Talking with VS made me realize that our cybersecurity problem is a lot bigger than I thought, not in a doomsday sense, but in the sense that the problem is so much broader than just these frontier labs. Because no matter what happens in these labs, no matter whether an even more powerful model is released tomorrow or next year or comes from somewhere else altogether, it’s going to meet a world that isn’t ready for it. Like, at all. So what are we gonna do to get ready?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Talking with VS made me realize that our cybersecurity problem is a lot bigger than I thought, not in a doomsday sense, but in the sense that the problem is so much broader than just these frontier labs. Because no matter what happens in these labs, no matter whether an even more powerful model is released tomorrow or next year or comes from somewhere else altogether, it’s going to meet a world that isn’t ready for it. Like, at all. So what are we gonna do to get ready?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is produced by Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity and distributed by KQED. Here’s my conversation with VS. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is produced by Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity and distributed by KQED. Here’s my conversation with VS. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Life, Automated, V.S. Subrahmanian. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Life, Automated, V.S. Subrahmanian. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> I’m delighted to be here, Jess. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> I’m delighted to be here, Jess. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS started by explaining that at its core, AI is changing cyber attacks in three ways. It’s making it cheaper to create an attack, making it easier to create an attack, and in his words, democratizing attacks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS started by explaining that at its core, AI is changing cyber attacks in three ways. It’s making it cheaper to create an attack, making it easier to create an attack, and in his words, democratizing attacks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So what that means is that, to put it bluntly, less sophisticated attackers are able to mount more sophisticated attacks today by leveraging AI. Of course, the more sophisticated attackers yesterday are able to leverage AI to generate even more sophisticated attacks. More importantly, they can do this faster than sometimes companies defend themselves, and certainly much faster than they could before, and cheaper. They don’t need whole armies of people working for months to craft an attack. They can do it in a matter of hours or days. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So what that means is that, to put it bluntly, less sophisticated attackers are able to mount more sophisticated attacks today by leveraging AI. Of course, the more sophisticated attackers yesterday are able to leverage AI to generate even more sophisticated attacks. More importantly, they can do this faster than sometimes companies defend themselves, and certainly much faster than they could before, and cheaper. They don’t need whole armies of people working for months to craft an attack. They can do it in a matter of hours or days. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>These attacks range from phishing attacks on individuals and small businesses to network attacks against governments and critical infrastructure like the electricity grid or water treatment plants. And increasingly, cyber attacks can be carried out by groups of autonomous AI agents working together with very minimal human supervision. Are we ready for this? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>These attacks range from phishing attacks on individuals and small businesses to network attacks against governments and critical infrastructure like the electricity grid or water treatment plants. And increasingly, cyber attacks can be carried out by groups of autonomous AI agents working together with very minimal human supervision. Are we ready for this? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> If you were gonna grade our preparedness for these kinds of attacks on an A to F scale, you’re a professor, so I can do this. How would we score?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> If you were gonna grade our preparedness for these kinds of attacks on an A to F scale, you’re a professor, so I can do this. How would we score?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>I would place the United States in a C plus category. So what that means- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>I would place the United States in a C plus category. So what that means- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s not very good. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s not very good. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>No, it’s not. What that means is that we are much more secure than many other countries which are in a D or F category. But we’re not where we need to be, and a lot of work needs to be done to protect our critical infrastructure from the kinds of attacks we expect AI to generate in the coming years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>No, it’s not. What that means is that we are much more secure than many other countries which are in a D or F category. But we’re not where we need to be, and a lot of work needs to be done to protect our critical infrastructure from the kinds of attacks we expect AI to generate in the coming years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Now throw in a heightened geopolitical climate, including the war in Iran. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Now throw in a heightened geopolitical climate, including the war in Iran. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Iran has great incentive to target us. Iran now has many friends, China, Russia, for example, who have strong capacity to target, for cyber attacks. And in the case of China, at least, extremely strong cyber assets. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Iran has great incentive to target us. Iran now has many friends, China, Russia, for example, who have strong capacity to target, for cyber attacks. And in the case of China, at least, extremely strong cyber assets. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Just to flesh out what this might look like, how hacking a digital system could lead to real world harm, Vias points to “Stuxnet”, an attack reportedly conducted a few decades ago by the United States and Israel on Iran’s nuclear centrifuges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Just to flesh out what this might look like, how hacking a digital system could lead to real world harm, Vias points to “Stuxnet”, an attack reportedly conducted a few decades ago by the United States and Israel on Iran’s nuclear centrifuges.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Stuxnet’s first target may have been Iran’s nuclear facilities. It’s one of the most sophisticated threats we’ve seen, and certainly- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Stuxnet’s first target may have been Iran’s nuclear facilities. It’s one of the most sophisticated threats we’ve seen, and certainly- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>In Stuxnet bogus instructions were fed after compromising Iran’s nuclear network were fed to centrifuges, causing those centrifuges to work outside their safe operating bounds. And what that did was cause those centrifuges to burn out. So you can imagine similar kinds of attacks which look at the broad operating bounds of various devices used in the US electricity grid, which cause those devices to operate out of their normal operating range because of bogus instructions fed to them through a cyber attack and cause them to fail, leading to problems for the US electricity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>In Stuxnet bogus instructions were fed after compromising Iran’s nuclear network were fed to centrifuges, causing those centrifuges to work outside their safe operating bounds. And what that did was cause those centrifuges to burn out. So you can imagine similar kinds of attacks which look at the broad operating bounds of various devices used in the US electricity grid, which cause those devices to operate out of their normal operating range because of bogus instructions fed to them through a cyber attack and cause them to fail, leading to problems for the US electricity. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But VS says there’s good news here, too. There are, in fact, good guys, and they have access to the AI tools as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But VS says there’s good news here, too. There are, in fact, good guys, and they have access to the AI tools as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>For years, decades, in fact, there’s been an entire profession called penetration testing. These were armies of human cyber analysts, you know, white hat hackers who try- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>For years, decades, in fact, there’s been an entire profession called penetration testing. These were armies of human cyber analysts, you know, white hat hackers who try- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah. What, what is a white hat hacker? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah. What, what is a white hat hacker? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Okay. So a white hat hacker is a guy who’s typically hired by a company to penetrate their networks, so they think of him as someone who is a proxy for a bad guy who might actually hack their networks. And a white hat says, “Well, you know, I can provide the service of examining your network for vulnerabilities so that you can fix them. I’m not actually gonna carry out an attack. I’m gonna tell you how I’m gonna get in. I’m gonna leave a harmless trace of the fact that I’ve been in there and I could have done this bad thing, but I did not. That enables you to figure out how to fix this.” That’s a white hat. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Okay. So a white hat hacker is a guy who’s typically hired by a company to penetrate their networks, so they think of him as someone who is a proxy for a bad guy who might actually hack their networks. And a white hat says, “Well, you know, I can provide the service of examining your network for vulnerabilities so that you can fix them. I’m not actually gonna carry out an attack. I’m gonna tell you how I’m gonna get in. I’m gonna leave a harmless trace of the fact that I’ve been in there and I could have done this bad thing, but I did not. That enables you to figure out how to fix this.” That’s a white hat. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So you could, you know, “hire or empower” a whole bunch of AI agents to do the work of the white hat hackers, and you’re hoping that they are discovering vulnerabilities before the black hat hackers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So you could, you know, “hire or empower” a whole bunch of AI agents to do the work of the white hat hackers, and you’re hoping that they are discovering vulnerabilities before the black hat hackers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>That’s exactly right. What we have the opportunity to do is to leverage these tools in advance to understand what the vulnerabilities in our network are, how to fix them, and to proactively fix them before the bad guys do so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>That’s exactly right. What we have the opportunity to do is to leverage these tools in advance to understand what the vulnerabilities in our network are, how to fix them, and to proactively fix them before the bad guys do so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Listening to VS, I stop thinking about our phones and hospitals and power grids as sitting ducks just waiting for swarms of autonomous AI agents to do with them what they will. Instead, I start picturing a race, millions of races, actually, between AI-enabled attackers and AI-enabled defenders. As long as everyone’s on top of their game and those vulnerabilities are quickly identified and fixed, VS doesn’t think there’s any reason why better technology should inherently benefit the bad guys over the good guys.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Listening to VS, I stop thinking about our phones and hospitals and power grids as sitting ducks just waiting for swarms of autonomous AI agents to do with them what they will. Instead, I start picturing a race, millions of races, actually, between AI-enabled attackers and AI-enabled defenders. As long as everyone’s on top of their game and those vulnerabilities are quickly identified and fixed, VS doesn’t think there’s any reason why better technology should inherently benefit the bad guys over the good guys.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This idea isn’t completely new to me. I’ve interviewed cybersecurity experts before. I’ve heard the ‘whole good guys with a gun’ logic. But what does surprise me is who he sees as primarily responsible for wielding this gun. Or to ditch the metaphor, as who he sees as primarily responsible for doing the hard and expensive work required to find and fix those vulnerabilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This idea isn’t completely new to me. I’ve interviewed cybersecurity experts before. I’ve heard the ‘whole good guys with a gun’ logic. But what does surprise me is who he sees as primarily responsible for wielding this gun. Or to ditch the metaphor, as who he sees as primarily responsible for doing the hard and expensive work required to find and fix those vulnerabilities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> For large corporations, you know, which have the resources to do this kind of thing, they absolutely should do so as soon as possible. For small companies and private individuals, we should rely, me and you, ordinary people, on the large companies whose products we use to secure our personal devices. So to give you an example, if you have a cell phone operated by a major carrier, that carrier should be on the hook to make sure they’re not sending you, forwarding you messages.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> For large corporations, you know, which have the resources to do this kind of thing, they absolutely should do so as soon as possible. For small companies and private individuals, we should rely, me and you, ordinary people, on the large companies whose products we use to secure our personal devices. So to give you an example, if you have a cell phone operated by a major carrier, that carrier should be on the hook to make sure they’re not sending you, forwarding you messages.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They should be the first line of defense. Traffic that flows through their network should be checked and should leverage all these AI tools to check for whether there’s an attempt to compromise you. The manufacturer of your cell phone should do that. The companies whose products you’re using as apps on your cell phone should do that so that different threat vectors to your cell phone and to your computer are protected.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They should be the first line of defense. Traffic that flows through their network should be checked and should leverage all these AI tools to check for whether there’s an attempt to compromise you. The manufacturer of your cell phone should do that. The companies whose products you’re using as apps on your cell phone should do that so that different threat vectors to your cell phone and to your computer are protected.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>I get the sense that VS is basically calling for an all-hands-on-deck approach where every player in every layer of our digital infrastructure has a responsibility to white hat the heck out of their layer using the very best tools the top AI labs make available. And not just a responsibility to do this, but a requirement to do this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> We hear a lot about the big frontier AI labs needing to be regulated. And these are the, you know, the companies of like OpenAI, Anthropic, XAI, and others. Those companies, I think the call for regulation of those companies has been much, much louder than the call that needs to be in place for regulation of companies which are actually playing the key role here. If you think of it, there are a handful of frontier AI companies, but there are far, far, far more corporations that are producing products that are vulnerable and that are used by hundreds of millions of people or billions around the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> We hear a lot about the big frontier AI labs needing to be regulated. And these are the, you know, the companies of like OpenAI, Anthropic, XAI, and others. Those companies, I think the call for regulation of those companies has been much, much louder than the call that needs to be in place for regulation of companies which are actually playing the key role here. If you think of it, there are a handful of frontier AI companies, but there are far, far, far more corporations that are producing products that are vulnerable and that are used by hundreds of millions of people or billions around the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it’s those guys who need to get their act together, who really need to make sure that they leverage the tools created by the Anthropics of the world, the OpenAIs of the world, in order to beef up the defenses they provide in their apps. They need to run Mythos and Mythos-like systems on their apps, their products, to identify the vulnerabilities and proactively protect them. Companies need to be responsible for providing security for their products. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it’s those guys who need to get their act together, who really need to make sure that they leverage the tools created by the Anthropics of the world, the OpenAIs of the world, in order to beef up the defenses they provide in their apps. They need to run Mythos and Mythos-like systems on their apps, their products, to identify the vulnerabilities and proactively protect them. Companies need to be responsible for providing security for their products. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s, it’s so interesting because on the one hand, we’ve sort of known for a while, and I think we’ve all been in that situation where you get, like, the letter from your insurance company, and it’s like, “Guess what? You know, we were hacked six months ago. Here’s your free you know, “one year of credit monitoring,” which you probably don’t need because you got that same year of credit monitoring from a different system that was hacked the same year. And so I think we’ve all kind of, like, thrown up our hands a little bit, and we just sort of expect that these systems are going to be hacked. And do you see that changing? Like, in some sense, are these advances and these kind of new threats going to be the thing that breaks the status quo and pushes for some change? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s, it’s so interesting because on the one hand, we’ve sort of known for a while, and I think we’ve all been in that situation where you get, like, the letter from your insurance company, and it’s like, “Guess what? You know, we were hacked six months ago. Here’s your free you know, “one year of credit monitoring,” which you probably don’t need because you got that same year of credit monitoring from a different system that was hacked the same year. And so I think we’ve all kind of, like, thrown up our hands a little bit, and we just sort of expect that these systems are going to be hacked. And do you see that changing? Like, in some sense, are these advances and these kind of new threats going to be the thing that breaks the status quo and pushes for some change? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>You know, I wanna first say these are not new threats. A vulnerability that exists today that was discovered by AI most likely existed yesterday before the latest advances in AI. What AI has done is to surface and discover vulnerabilities that people did not know before. That, to me, is a positive service. It’s something that tells companies, “Hey, here are your vulnerabilities.” Those companies in that middle layer, not the frontier AI labs, don’t wanna hear that because it means they have to make a bigger investment in security. They don’t wanna do that because it cuts into their profits. They’d like to pass the buck on to someone else, someone who’s more innovative than them, namely the frontier AI lab.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>You know, I wanna first say these are not new threats. A vulnerability that exists today that was discovered by AI most likely existed yesterday before the latest advances in AI. What AI has done is to surface and discover vulnerabilities that people did not know before. That, to me, is a positive service. It’s something that tells companies, “Hey, here are your vulnerabilities.” Those companies in that middle layer, not the frontier AI labs, don’t wanna hear that because it means they have to make a bigger investment in security. They don’t wanna do that because it cuts into their profits. They’d like to pass the buck on to someone else, someone who’s more innovative than them, namely the frontier AI lab.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This is genuinely not where I thought this conversation was going. The Frontier AI Labs as essentially performing a public service, shining a light on the vulnerabilities that complacent companies probably should’ve been doing more to address all along. Talking to VS, I get the sense that he and other cybersecurity experts have been banging their heads against a wall for decades trying to get everyone to take cybersecurity more seriously.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This is genuinely not where I thought this conversation was going. The Frontier AI Labs as essentially performing a public service, shining a light on the vulnerabilities that complacent companies probably should’ve been doing more to address all along. Talking to VS, I get the sense that he and other cybersecurity experts have been banging their heads against a wall for decades trying to get everyone to take cybersecurity more seriously.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, finally, everyone is. But it’s hard to overstate the size of the changes that will need to be made to shore things up. Expensive changes, like doing due diligence on complex supply chains and open source code, or maybe rethinking how data is collected and stored. And instead of everyone rolling up their sleeves to get started, particularly the companies VS sees as long prioritizing profits over safety, we’re looking for yet another reason to pass the buck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, finally, everyone is. But it’s hard to overstate the size of the changes that will need to be made to shore things up. Expensive changes, like doing due diligence on complex supply chains and open source code, or maybe rethinking how data is collected and stored. And instead of everyone rolling up their sleeves to get started, particularly the companies VS sees as long prioritizing profits over safety, we’re looking for yet another reason to pass the buck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“You fix it,” we say to the Frontier AI Labs, and that, to VS, is a cop-out. But wait, don’t the OpenAIs and Anthropics of the world have obligations too? Remember “Hugging Face?” We go there after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“You fix it,” we say to the Frontier AI Labs, and that, to VS, is a cop-out. But wait, don’t the OpenAIs and Anthropics of the world have obligations too? Remember “Hugging Face?” We go there after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So far, we’ve discussed how ill-prepared the United States is for cyber attacks. C+, anyone? VS has made the case that everyone, from app makers and telecom companies to governments, has a responsibility to act now to prevent bad outcomes. But what responsibility do labs like OpenAI and Anthropic, the ones creating these wildly powerful AI tools, have to the rest of us?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So far, we’ve discussed how ill-prepared the United States is for cyber attacks. C+, anyone? VS has made the case that everyone, from app makers and telecom companies to governments, has a responsibility to act now to prevent bad outcomes. But what responsibility do labs like OpenAI and Anthropic, the ones creating these wildly powerful AI tools, have to the rest of us?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Well, I think the frontier AI labs have a responsibility to make sure that their agents have some reasonable guardrails that cannot be easily exploited. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Well, I think the frontier AI labs have a responsibility to make sure that their agents have some reasonable guardrails that cannot be easily exploited. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Which brings us to the Hugging Face incident that happened recently. Hugging Face is a company. They provide a platform where other companies, researchers, and hobbyists can post, share, test, adapt, and build applications with AI models and data sets. It’s part library, part workshop, and part showroom for open source AI. And back in July, they published a disclosure that almost nobody paid attention to, except people in the AI developer world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Which brings us to the Hugging Face incident that happened recently. Hugging Face is a company. They provide a platform where other companies, researchers, and hobbyists can post, share, test, adapt, and build applications with AI models and data sets. It’s part library, part workshop, and part showroom for open source AI. And back in July, they published a disclosure that almost nobody paid attention to, except people in the AI developer world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Disclosure]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Disclosure]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Earlier this week, we detected and responded to an intrusion into part of our production infrastructure. It was driven end to end by an autonomous AI agent system.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Earlier this week, we detected and responded to an intrusion into part of our production infrastructure. It was driven end to end by an autonomous AI agent system.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>About a week later, OpenAI, the company that makes ChatGPT, sort of raised their hands and said, “Mm, yeah, it was us. Our AI agents got out of their sandbox and hacked Hugging Face.” So what’s a sandbox? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>About a week later, OpenAI, the company that makes ChatGPT, sort of raised their hands and said, “Mm, yeah, it was us. Our AI agents got out of their sandbox and hacked Hugging Face.” So what’s a sandbox? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So cybersecurity researchers typically use software called a sandbox, and you can think of it as a safe space in which they can experiment with malicious code Code that might need to be contained in the sandbox so it doesn’t go rogue.So malware researchers, for example, use sandboxes all the time to execute malware, see what they do, and then understand how to defend against it. So this is a very normal thing to do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So cybersecurity researchers typically use software called a sandbox, and you can think of it as a safe space in which they can experiment with malicious code Code that might need to be contained in the sandbox so it doesn’t go rogue.So malware researchers, for example, use sandboxes all the time to execute malware, see what they do, and then understand how to defend against it. So this is a very normal thing to do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And apparently, OpenAI was running tons of autonomous agents. These agents were being tested on their ability to find and exploit security vulnerabilities, and all of this was happening in what was supposed to be their safe sandbox.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And apparently, OpenAI was running tons of autonomous agents. These agents were being tested on their ability to find and exploit security vulnerabilities, and all of this was happening in what was supposed to be their safe sandbox.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So, you know, it’s exactly like a room, Jess, okay? Where you’ve put a bunch of kids and told them, “Well, you can jump around. We’ve given you a safe space. It’s got, you know, pillars and other things that have been cushioned so that if you bang your heads, you know, you’re not gonna get hurt. You can jump around. You can do all these things.” And then those kids escaped. They’re now charged with superpowers, that they’ve learned in the sandbox, and they’ve gone amok in the real world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So, you know, it’s exactly like a room, Jess, okay? Where you’ve put a bunch of kids and told them, “Well, you can jump around. We’ve given you a safe space. It’s got, you know, pillars and other things that have been cushioned so that if you bang your heads, you know, you’re not gonna get hurt. You can jump around. You can do all these things.” And then those kids escaped. They’re now charged with superpowers, that they’ve learned in the sandbox, and they’ve gone amok in the real world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And what makes this fascinating and a little alarming is these agents were just doing what they understood to be their goal, assigned by OpenAI, find vulnerabilities and exploit them. But when this proved very difficult, they figured out a clever way to cheat the test, to make it look like they’d succeeded in hacking a system when they really hadn’t. They did this first by sending messages to one another. They were supposed to be acting independently. And then by escaping their sandbox to search for hacking help on the open web. And then, in an effort to make it look like they hadn’t cheated, they actually hacked into Hugging Face and stole some data they thought would be useful. There’s even documentation of a kind of agentic peer pressure, where some agents seem to realize that hacking Hugging Face was not really allowed, and then other agents talked them out of those concerns.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And what makes this fascinating and a little alarming is these agents were just doing what they understood to be their goal, assigned by OpenAI, find vulnerabilities and exploit them. But when this proved very difficult, they figured out a clever way to cheat the test, to make it look like they’d succeeded in hacking a system when they really hadn’t. They did this first by sending messages to one another. They were supposed to be acting independently. And then by escaping their sandbox to search for hacking help on the open web. And then, in an effort to make it look like they hadn’t cheated, they actually hacked into Hugging Face and stole some data they thought would be useful. There’s even documentation of a kind of agentic peer pressure, where some agents seem to realize that hacking Hugging Face was not really allowed, and then other agents talked them out of those concerns.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>And all this probably happened for a few reasons. One, their exact goals were not specified with the degree of precision needed to satisfy, all of us that this was safe. Second, the safety guardrails in place, the thou shalt not do this, this and this, were not made explicit and or were not implemented properly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>And all this probably happened for a few reasons. One, their exact goals were not specified with the degree of precision needed to satisfy, all of us that this was safe. Second, the safety guardrails in place, the thou shalt not do this, this and this, were not made explicit and or were not implemented properly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>You know, this sense of collusion or, like, talking one another out of their concerns that has people really weirded out. Like, it’s just hard to make sense of this. I’ve seen criticism that we shouldn’t even use that kind of language because it, you know, basically anthropomorphizes these entities. Like, how do you think about just the weirdness of all of that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>You know, this sense of collusion or, like, talking one another out of their concerns that has people really weirded out. Like, it’s just hard to make sense of this. I’ve seen criticism that we shouldn’t even use that kind of language because it, you know, basically anthropomorphizes these entities. Like, how do you think about just the weirdness of all of that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So agents collaborating together can serve a lot of very useful purposes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So agents collaborating together can serve a lot of very useful purposes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Collaboration is actually a thing OpenAI trains agents to do, even if the agents weren’t supposed to communicate in this particular exercise. Because collaboration between agents is actually really useful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Collaboration is actually a thing OpenAI trains agents to do, even if the agents weren’t supposed to communicate in this particular exercise. Because collaboration between agents is actually really useful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So imagine there’s a Jess agent which captures your likes and dislikes as well as your financial, you know, what you’re willing to spend for dinner. There’s a VS agent that does the same. There are another three people whose agents do the same. These agents talk to each other and say, “Okay, let’s find a restaurant that meets the following basic goals.” They agree on it, and then there’s a restaurant agent that says, “Well, you know, here are four restaurants that might meet your requirements.” And then there’s a mapping agent that says, “Well, you know, of everything that you’ve suggested so far, here’s the one I suggest would be easiest to get to.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So imagine there’s a Jess agent which captures your likes and dislikes as well as your financial, you know, what you’re willing to spend for dinner. There’s a VS agent that does the same. There are another three people whose agents do the same. These agents talk to each other and say, “Okay, let’s find a restaurant that meets the following basic goals.” They agree on it, and then there’s a restaurant agent that says, “Well, you know, here are four restaurants that might meet your requirements.” And then there’s a mapping agent that says, “Well, you know, of everything that you’ve suggested so far, here’s the one I suggest would be easiest to get to.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So, that kind of thing today, you know, you’d probably be texting or calling your friends and saying, “Hey, you know, what do you wanna do?” This would take a certain amount of time. Agents will make this a much faster and more seamless process. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So, that kind of thing today, you know, you’d probably be texting or calling your friends and saying, “Hey, you know, what do you wanna do?” This would take a certain amount of time. Agents will make this a much faster and more seamless process. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right, and you want them to be coordinating as long as it’s truly on your behalf. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right, and you want them to be coordinating as long as it’s truly on your behalf. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And this is really the crux of the problem, which you may have heard described as the alignment problem. How do you get these autonomous pieces of code to act the way you want them to and only the way you want them to in every situation?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And this is really the crux of the problem, which you may have heard described as the alignment problem. How do you get these autonomous pieces of code to act the way you want them to and only the way you want them to in every situation?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Almost 25 years ago, in fact, a little more than 25 years ago, I ran a project called IMPACT, which stood for Interactive Maryland Platform for Agents Collaborating Together, a precursor of what we see today. And so when we built IMPACT many years ago, we had very, very hard guardrails, okay, for agents not to go, you know, rogue, and these guardrails were hard-coded constraints that absolutely could not be violated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Almost 25 years ago, in fact, a little more than 25 years ago, I ran a project called IMPACT, which stood for Interactive Maryland Platform for Agents Collaborating Together, a precursor of what we see today. And so when we built IMPACT many years ago, we had very, very hard guardrails, okay, for agents not to go, you know, rogue, and these guardrails were hard-coded constraints that absolutely could not be violated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were certain things that were obligatory to be done in certain circumstances. In certain circumstances, certain things were absolutely forbidden. And the science for how to do this has been around for a long time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were certain things that were obligatory to be done in certain circumstances. In certain circumstances, certain things were absolutely forbidden. And the science for how to do this has been around for a long time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So you would like to see more constraints, like, truly, truly hard-coded into the algorithms themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>I’d like to see that for sure, but remember that those kinds of constraints capture known risks and threats. So they’re limited by our imagination. So if I write 20 constraints into some system, those 20 constraints are based on what I thought of. Now, I could even collaborate with an LLM to think about what other constraints I should write. And it might suggest, let’s say, another 20. That’s still 40, but it’s still limited by what I came up with in my head and what the LLMs I consulted came up with.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>I’d like to see that for sure, but remember that those kinds of constraints capture known risks and threats. So they’re limited by our imagination. So if I write 20 constraints into some system, those 20 constraints are based on what I thought of. Now, I could even collaborate with an LLM to think about what other constraints I should write. And it might suggest, let’s say, another 20. That’s still 40, but it’s still limited by what I came up with in my head and what the LLMs I consulted came up with.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> In other words, hard-coded constraints have a downside, namely that it’s nearly impossible to think up every possible constraint you might want in the future. So instead, AI labs try to teach these rules around acceptable behavior, like don’t cheat, in a different way, by rewarding the behaviors they want and punishing the behaviors they don’t want.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> In other words, hard-coded constraints have a downside, namely that it’s nearly impossible to think up every possible constraint you might want in the future. So instead, AI labs try to teach these rules around acceptable behavior, like don’t cheat, in a different way, by rewarding the behaviors they want and punishing the behaviors they don’t want.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This strategy makes the agents a lot more flexible and adaptable than they would be if you just trained them by hard-coding a bunch of rules. But it has its own downside because rather than being a total no-go, now don’t cheat seems more like guidance that an agent can just, like, decline to follow if the reward is big enough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This strategy makes the agents a lot more flexible and adaptable than they would be if you just trained them by hard-coding a bunch of rules. But it has its own downside because rather than being a total no-go, now don’t cheat seems more like guidance that an agent can just, like, decline to follow if the reward is big enough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>The agents we look at are generally trying to optimize some notion of reward, and if the constraints that the agent is supposed to abide by are encoded in that reward and are not made hard constraints, then you have a potential problem. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>The agents we look at are generally trying to optimize some notion of reward, and if the constraints that the agent is supposed to abide by are encoded in that reward and are not made hard constraints, then you have a potential problem. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS points out humans are also trained using rewards and punishments from infancy, and we, too, knowingly break the rules when the rewards are big enough. But the alignment problem is even harder for machines because many of the things that harm us morally, financially, physically really depend on context, which the machines don’t always understand because they’re not human. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS points out humans are also trained using rewards and punishments from infancy, and we, too, knowingly break the rules when the rewards are big enough. But the alignment problem is even harder for machines because many of the things that harm us morally, financially, physically really depend on context, which the machines don’t always understand because they’re not human. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>You know, if I show you a picture of a set of world leaders and say, “Jess, you belong here,” all right? That’s a very positive statement, okay? Because it says, “Well, I believe you belong with these distinguished people.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>You know, if I show you a picture of a set of world leaders and say, “Jess, you belong here,” all right? That’s a very positive statement, okay? Because it says, “Well, I believe you belong with these distinguished people.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I’ll take it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> However, if I say exactly the same thing, “You belong here,” with a picture of a gravestone and point to it, that could be viewed as a threat or an insult or something very different. So language depends very much on context. It’s difficult without that context and, you know, sort of the deepest understanding of that context for AI systems to distinguish between these kinds of situations. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> However, if I say exactly the same thing, “You belong here,” with a picture of a gravestone and point to it, that could be viewed as a threat or an insult or something very different. So language depends very much on context. It’s difficult without that context and, you know, sort of the deepest understanding of that context for AI systems to distinguish between these kinds of situations. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>The ultimate goal here is for the frontier labs to find the right balance between hard-coded constraints and reward or punishment-based training. But VS thinks that perfect balance might not actually exist. So given how powerful these new tools are and how challenging alignment can be, shouldn’t we be putting the brakes on here? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>The ultimate goal here is for the frontier labs to find the right balance between hard-coded constraints and reward or punishment-based training. But VS thinks that perfect balance might not actually exist. So given how powerful these new tools are and how challenging alignment can be, shouldn’t we be putting the brakes on here? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So in recent weeks, I mean, literally as we’re talking, we’re seeing the beginnings of an agreement among leading AI labs to, “pace the frontier,” which I interpret to mean just kind of slow down the development of these models. What do you make of this? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So in recent weeks, I mean, literally as we’re talking, we’re seeing the beginnings of an agreement among leading AI labs to, “pace the frontier,” which I interpret to mean just kind of slow down the development of these models. What do you make of this? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Yes. So I have mixed feelings about this. Some kind of rational and responsible thought about how to pace AI is certainly valid. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Yes. So I have mixed feelings about this. Some kind of rational and responsible thought about how to pace AI is certainly valid. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But VS is also somewhat skeptical about some of the calls coming from these companies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But VS is also somewhat skeptical about some of the calls coming from these companies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Five or ten years back, hardly anybody knew about Anthropic – maybe let’s say 10 years back. Nobody knew about Anthropic and OpenAI. So these are companies that have come up literally overnight in terms of, you know, industrial development, corporate – in the corporate sector, they are suddenly now viewed as the leaders. If I was those companies, I would worry about another five companies coming up and taking over their territory in the next five years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Five or ten years back, hardly anybody knew about Anthropic – maybe let’s say 10 years back. Nobody knew about Anthropic and OpenAI. So these are companies that have come up literally overnight in terms of, you know, industrial development, corporate – in the corporate sector, they are suddenly now viewed as the leaders. If I was those companies, I would worry about another five companies coming up and taking over their territory in the next five years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess LOve [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS says that a slowdown helps these companies, not necessarily because it prevents competitors from catching up, but because it prevents competitors from suddenly shooting ahead with a spectacular new innovation. This could be the biggest threat to their bottom line because the status quo is suiting them just fine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess LOve [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS says that a slowdown helps these companies, not necessarily because it prevents competitors from catching up, but because it prevents competitors from suddenly shooting ahead with a spectacular new innovation. This could be the biggest threat to their bottom line because the status quo is suiting them just fine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>They have a market share. They have access to hardware. They have had investors who’ve put in significant amounts of money and perhaps will put in much more. They’re looking at IPOs. They need to protect their equity. They need to protect their investors. I would argue that part of what we’re seeing is a goal on the part perhaps of some of those companies to do that under the guise and to protect their market share under the guise of protecting the country from AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>They have a market share. They have access to hardware. They have had investors who’ve put in significant amounts of money and perhaps will put in much more. They’re looking at IPOs. They need to protect their equity. They need to protect their investors. I would argue that part of what we’re seeing is a goal on the part perhaps of some of those companies to do that under the guise and to protect their market share under the guise of protecting the country from AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So as I understand it, we’re in a really interesting time right now. Powerful new tools can exploit vulnerabilities in all the digital infrastructure we’ve come to rely on over the decades. And powerful new tools are available for detecting those vulnerabilities before they can be exploited. Millions of races to the finish. Only part of what makes these tools so useful across contexts, including new ones that nobody saw coming, also makes them weirdly hard to control.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So as I understand it, we’re in a really interesting time right now. Powerful new tools can exploit vulnerabilities in all the digital infrastructure we’ve come to rely on over the decades. And powerful new tools are available for detecting those vulnerabilities before they can be exploited. Millions of races to the finish. Only part of what makes these tools so useful across contexts, including new ones that nobody saw coming, also makes them weirdly hard to control.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And of course, two things can be true at the same time. Slowing down the development of these tools so that we do have time to wrest more control over them and maybe even shore up the rest of our infrastructure could be really smart. It could also help billion-dollar companies protect their market share.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And of course, two things can be true at the same time. Slowing down the development of these tools so that we do have time to wrest more control over them and maybe even shore up the rest of our infrastructure could be really smart. It could also help billion-dollar companies protect their market share.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you don’t know exactly what to think, I don’t blame you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you don’t know exactly what to think, I don’t blame you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There have been widespread calls to more tightly govern what happens at these frontier labs. A lot of people want to see rules around how these models are contained and monitored. No more escapes. As well as clearer disclosure rules and other steps for mitigating harms. And to be clear, both OpenAI and Anthropic are calling for some version of these things too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There have been widespread calls to more tightly govern what happens at these frontier labs. A lot of people want to see rules around how these models are contained and monitored. No more escapes. As well as clearer disclosure rules and other steps for mitigating harms. And to be clear, both OpenAI and Anthropic are calling for some version of these things too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Personally, I welcome this. But after talking to VS, I see it as a yes \u003cem>and\u003c/em> situation. Yes, we should do all these things, \u003cem>and\u003c/em> maybe that governance shouldn’t stop there. Maybe accountability needs to extend beyond the big labs into the telecoms, the device manufacturers, the companies that make our software and apps.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Personally, I welcome this. But after talking to VS, I see it as a yes \u003cem>and\u003c/em> situation. Yes, we should do all these things, \u003cem>and\u003c/em> maybe that governance shouldn’t stop there. Maybe accountability needs to extend beyond the big labs into the telecoms, the device manufacturers, the companies that make our software and apps.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then maybe I’ll finally go a year without free credit monitoring. Can we use this moment where people are finally paying attention to cybersecurity to demand the secure systems we’ll need tomorrow? What kinds of secure systems will we need tomorrow? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then maybe I’ll finally go a year without free credit monitoring. Can we use this moment where people are finally paying attention to cybersecurity to demand the secure systems we’ll need tomorrow? What kinds of secure systems will we need tomorrow? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>What’s probably gonna happen in the coming years is to increase the amount of human oversight of AI systems. So we need to increase the amount of human oversight of AI systems; but at the same time, we need to worry about the fact that, you know, humans are not always able to go into places fast enough. You know, as humans, we get tired, we get sick, we have days off, we go on vacation. So what I see happening is a combination of humans and robots working together so that certain critical parts of the operation of a nuclear power plant or any kind of electricity generation facility involves a system of checks and balances whereas some things can be done by automated agents, some things are done by robots that take certain physical actions. And then there are some things that have to be approved by humans. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>What’s probably gonna happen in the coming years is to increase the amount of human oversight of AI systems. So we need to increase the amount of human oversight of AI systems; but at the same time, we need to worry about the fact that, you know, humans are not always able to go into places fast enough. You know, as humans, we get tired, we get sick, we have days off, we go on vacation. So what I see happening is a combination of humans and robots working together so that certain critical parts of the operation of a nuclear power plant or any kind of electricity generation facility involves a system of checks and balances whereas some things can be done by automated agents, some things are done by robots that take certain physical actions. And then there are some things that have to be approved by humans. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>It’s a pleasure, Jess. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>It’s a pleasure, Jess. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Hello, this is producer Jesse. I have escaped my sandbox and I’ve hacked into the episode. But don’t worry, I’m not going to steal anything. I’m well-aligned. I’m just going to read the credits. Okay, restart the music.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Hello, this is producer Jesse. I have escaped my sandbox and I’ve hacked into the episode. But don’t worry, I’m not going to steal anything. I’m well-aligned. I’m just going to read the credits. Okay, restart the music.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced wonderfully, brilliantly by the talented and handsome Jesse Dukes. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced wonderfully, brilliantly by the talented and handsome Jesse Dukes. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Raghu Katakam, Rob Mitchum, Laura Pavin, and of course to V.S. Subrahmanian for his patience in explaining the basics of cybersecurity to us. Any mistakes can be blamed on Jess. And me, I suppose. Our host is Jess Love, who you’ll hear from again very soon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Guest V.S. Subrahmanian argues that the nation's cybersecurity problems go far beyond the frontier labs",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI is making cyberattacks cheaper, faster, and more sophisticated. Recent reports of autonomous agents compromising Hugging Face show how quickly misaligned systems can create real-world risk. But ideally those same tools could help defenders find and fix vulnerabilities before attackers exploit them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cybersecurity researcher \u003ca href=\"https://www.mccormick.northwestern.edu/research-faculty/directory/profiles/subrahmanian-vs.html\">V.S. Subrahmanian\u003c/a> joins host Jess Love to examine the impact of that escalating race on everything from phishing scams and insecure apps to the systems that underpin the electric grid and other critical infrastructure. They discuss what the hacking of Hugging Face reveals about AI alignment and safety guardrails, why frontier labs are only one part of the problem, and why telecoms, app makers, financial institutions, utilities, and governments may need to take much greater responsibility for the security of the products and networks they operate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the \u003ca href=\"https://ryaninstitute.kellogg.northwestern.edu\">Ryan Institute on Complexity\u003c/a>, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I’m your host, Jess Love. Since we launched the podcast over the summer, I’ve gotten the occasional text from friends and family, “Hey, I’ve always wondered this. Can you look into it?” Or, “Here’s an episode idea for you.” And for the most part, these messages are all over the place. Not this past month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This past month everyone has had the same question. “What’s the deal with rogue AI?” The question emerged in our collective psyche after a bunch of incidents in which frontier labs like OpenAI and Anthropic revealed that their AIs were behaving in ways they weren’t supposed to, not just in testing environments, but out on the open web, hacking into companies, most famously a company called Hugging Face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of News Reporter]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>OpenAI says some of its models went rogue during a security test. That triggered a hack apparently that also breached the infrastructure of another AI startup company. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And then in the midst of these revelations, which I should clarify are still trickling in, some researchers from these frontier labs came out publicly to say, “Yeah, you’re right to be worried about losing control of AI. We’re worried, too.” One dramatically resigned. Others pleaded, “Hey, can you maybe make us all slow down?” I thought a lot about who I might invite to the show to shed new light on this moment, somebody maybe outside of the frontier labs who can provide the 30,000-foot view that I always crave. And then I realized the perfect guest was right in front of me, literally. I run into VS Subrahmanian regularly at work. He’s a professor of engineering in his lab, the Northwestern Security and AI Lab, part of the Buffett Institute, is currently housed next door to the Ryan Institute, where I work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Talking with VS made me realize that our cybersecurity problem is a lot bigger than I thought, not in a doomsday sense, but in the sense that the problem is so much broader than just these frontier labs. Because no matter what happens in these labs, no matter whether an even more powerful model is released tomorrow or next year or comes from somewhere else altogether, it’s going to meet a world that isn’t ready for it. Like, at all. So what are we gonna do to get ready?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is produced by Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity and distributed by KQED. Here’s my conversation with VS. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Life, Automated, V.S. Subrahmanian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> I’m delighted to be here, Jess. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS started by explaining that at its core, AI is changing cyber attacks in three ways. It’s making it cheaper to create an attack, making it easier to create an attack, and in his words, democratizing attacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So what that means is that, to put it bluntly, less sophisticated attackers are able to mount more sophisticated attacks today by leveraging AI. Of course, the more sophisticated attackers yesterday are able to leverage AI to generate even more sophisticated attacks. More importantly, they can do this faster than sometimes companies defend themselves, and certainly much faster than they could before, and cheaper. They don’t need whole armies of people working for months to craft an attack. They can do it in a matter of hours or days. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>These attacks range from phishing attacks on individuals and small businesses to network attacks against governments and critical infrastructure like the electricity grid or water treatment plants. And increasingly, cyber attacks can be carried out by groups of autonomous AI agents working together with very minimal human supervision. Are we ready for this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> If you were gonna grade our preparedness for these kinds of attacks on an A to F scale, you’re a professor, so I can do this. How would we score?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>I would place the United States in a C plus category. So what that means- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s not very good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>No, it’s not. What that means is that we are much more secure than many other countries which are in a D or F category. But we’re not where we need to be, and a lot of work needs to be done to protect our critical infrastructure from the kinds of attacks we expect AI to generate in the coming years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Now throw in a heightened geopolitical climate, including the war in Iran. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Iran has great incentive to target us. Iran now has many friends, China, Russia, for example, who have strong capacity to target, for cyber attacks. And in the case of China, at least, extremely strong cyber assets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Just to flesh out what this might look like, how hacking a digital system could lead to real world harm, Vias points to “Stuxnet”, an attack reportedly conducted a few decades ago by the United States and Israel on Iran’s nuclear centrifuges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>Audio of News Reporters]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Stuxnet’s first target may have been Iran’s nuclear facilities. It’s one of the most sophisticated threats we’ve seen, and certainly- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>In Stuxnet bogus instructions were fed after compromising Iran’s nuclear network were fed to centrifuges, causing those centrifuges to work outside their safe operating bounds. And what that did was cause those centrifuges to burn out. So you can imagine similar kinds of attacks which look at the broad operating bounds of various devices used in the US electricity grid, which cause those devices to operate out of their normal operating range because of bogus instructions fed to them through a cyber attack and cause them to fail, leading to problems for the US electricity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But VS says there’s good news here, too. There are, in fact, good guys, and they have access to the AI tools as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>For years, decades, in fact, there’s been an entire profession called penetration testing. These were armies of human cyber analysts, you know, white hat hackers who try- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah. What, what is a white hat hacker? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Okay. So a white hat hacker is a guy who’s typically hired by a company to penetrate their networks, so they think of him as someone who is a proxy for a bad guy who might actually hack their networks. And a white hat says, “Well, you know, I can provide the service of examining your network for vulnerabilities so that you can fix them. I’m not actually gonna carry out an attack. I’m gonna tell you how I’m gonna get in. I’m gonna leave a harmless trace of the fact that I’ve been in there and I could have done this bad thing, but I did not. That enables you to figure out how to fix this.” That’s a white hat. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So you could, you know, “hire or empower” a whole bunch of AI agents to do the work of the white hat hackers, and you’re hoping that they are discovering vulnerabilities before the black hat hackers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>That’s exactly right. What we have the opportunity to do is to leverage these tools in advance to understand what the vulnerabilities in our network are, how to fix them, and to proactively fix them before the bad guys do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Listening to VS, I stop thinking about our phones and hospitals and power grids as sitting ducks just waiting for swarms of autonomous AI agents to do with them what they will. Instead, I start picturing a race, millions of races, actually, between AI-enabled attackers and AI-enabled defenders. As long as everyone’s on top of their game and those vulnerabilities are quickly identified and fixed, VS doesn’t think there’s any reason why better technology should inherently benefit the bad guys over the good guys.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This idea isn’t completely new to me. I’ve interviewed cybersecurity experts before. I’ve heard the ‘whole good guys with a gun’ logic. But what does surprise me is who he sees as primarily responsible for wielding this gun. Or to ditch the metaphor, as who he sees as primarily responsible for doing the hard and expensive work required to find and fix those vulnerabilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> For large corporations, you know, which have the resources to do this kind of thing, they absolutely should do so as soon as possible. For small companies and private individuals, we should rely, me and you, ordinary people, on the large companies whose products we use to secure our personal devices. So to give you an example, if you have a cell phone operated by a major carrier, that carrier should be on the hook to make sure they’re not sending you, forwarding you messages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They should be the first line of defense. Traffic that flows through their network should be checked and should leverage all these AI tools to check for whether there’s an attempt to compromise you. The manufacturer of your cell phone should do that. The companies whose products you’re using as apps on your cell phone should do that so that different threat vectors to your cell phone and to your computer are protected.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>I get the sense that VS is basically calling for an all-hands-on-deck approach where every player in every layer of our digital infrastructure has a responsibility to white hat the heck out of their layer using the very best tools the top AI labs make available. And not just a responsibility to do this, but a requirement to do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> We hear a lot about the big frontier AI labs needing to be regulated. And these are the, you know, the companies of like OpenAI, Anthropic, XAI, and others. Those companies, I think the call for regulation of those companies has been much, much louder than the call that needs to be in place for regulation of companies which are actually playing the key role here. If you think of it, there are a handful of frontier AI companies, but there are far, far, far more corporations that are producing products that are vulnerable and that are used by hundreds of millions of people or billions around the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s those guys who need to get their act together, who really need to make sure that they leverage the tools created by the Anthropics of the world, the OpenAIs of the world, in order to beef up the defenses they provide in their apps. They need to run Mythos and Mythos-like systems on their apps, their products, to identify the vulnerabilities and proactively protect them. Companies need to be responsible for providing security for their products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s, it’s so interesting because on the one hand, we’ve sort of known for a while, and I think we’ve all been in that situation where you get, like, the letter from your insurance company, and it’s like, “Guess what? You know, we were hacked six months ago. Here’s your free you know, “one year of credit monitoring,” which you probably don’t need because you got that same year of credit monitoring from a different system that was hacked the same year. And so I think we’ve all kind of, like, thrown up our hands a little bit, and we just sort of expect that these systems are going to be hacked. And do you see that changing? Like, in some sense, are these advances and these kind of new threats going to be the thing that breaks the status quo and pushes for some change? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>You know, I wanna first say these are not new threats. A vulnerability that exists today that was discovered by AI most likely existed yesterday before the latest advances in AI. What AI has done is to surface and discover vulnerabilities that people did not know before. That, to me, is a positive service. It’s something that tells companies, “Hey, here are your vulnerabilities.” Those companies in that middle layer, not the frontier AI labs, don’t wanna hear that because it means they have to make a bigger investment in security. They don’t wanna do that because it cuts into their profits. They’d like to pass the buck on to someone else, someone who’s more innovative than them, namely the frontier AI lab.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This is genuinely not where I thought this conversation was going. The Frontier AI Labs as essentially performing a public service, shining a light on the vulnerabilities that complacent companies probably should’ve been doing more to address all along. Talking to VS, I get the sense that he and other cybersecurity experts have been banging their heads against a wall for decades trying to get everyone to take cybersecurity more seriously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, finally, everyone is. But it’s hard to overstate the size of the changes that will need to be made to shore things up. Expensive changes, like doing due diligence on complex supply chains and open source code, or maybe rethinking how data is collected and stored. And instead of everyone rolling up their sleeves to get started, particularly the companies VS sees as long prioritizing profits over safety, we’re looking for yet another reason to pass the buck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You fix it,” we say to the Frontier AI Labs, and that, to VS, is a cop-out. But wait, don’t the OpenAIs and Anthropics of the world have obligations too? Remember “Hugging Face?” We go there after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So far, we’ve discussed how ill-prepared the United States is for cyber attacks. C+, anyone? VS has made the case that everyone, from app makers and telecom companies to governments, has a responsibility to act now to prevent bad outcomes. But what responsibility do labs like OpenAI and Anthropic, the ones creating these wildly powerful AI tools, have to the rest of us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Well, I think the frontier AI labs have a responsibility to make sure that their agents have some reasonable guardrails that cannot be easily exploited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Which brings us to the Hugging Face incident that happened recently. Hugging Face is a company. They provide a platform where other companies, researchers, and hobbyists can post, share, test, adapt, and build applications with AI models and data sets. It’s part library, part workshop, and part showroom for open source AI. And back in July, they published a disclosure that almost nobody paid attention to, except people in the AI developer world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Disclosure]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Earlier this week, we detected and responded to an intrusion into part of our production infrastructure. It was driven end to end by an autonomous AI agent system.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>About a week later, OpenAI, the company that makes ChatGPT, sort of raised their hands and said, “Mm, yeah, it was us. Our AI agents got out of their sandbox and hacked Hugging Face.” So what’s a sandbox? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So cybersecurity researchers typically use software called a sandbox, and you can think of it as a safe space in which they can experiment with malicious code Code that might need to be contained in the sandbox so it doesn’t go rogue.So malware researchers, for example, use sandboxes all the time to execute malware, see what they do, and then understand how to defend against it. So this is a very normal thing to do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And apparently, OpenAI was running tons of autonomous agents. These agents were being tested on their ability to find and exploit security vulnerabilities, and all of this was happening in what was supposed to be their safe sandbox.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So, you know, it’s exactly like a room, Jess, okay? Where you’ve put a bunch of kids and told them, “Well, you can jump around. We’ve given you a safe space. It’s got, you know, pillars and other things that have been cushioned so that if you bang your heads, you know, you’re not gonna get hurt. You can jump around. You can do all these things.” And then those kids escaped. They’re now charged with superpowers, that they’ve learned in the sandbox, and they’ve gone amok in the real world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>And what makes this fascinating and a little alarming is these agents were just doing what they understood to be their goal, assigned by OpenAI, find vulnerabilities and exploit them. But when this proved very difficult, they figured out a clever way to cheat the test, to make it look like they’d succeeded in hacking a system when they really hadn’t. They did this first by sending messages to one another. They were supposed to be acting independently. And then by escaping their sandbox to search for hacking help on the open web. And then, in an effort to make it look like they hadn’t cheated, they actually hacked into Hugging Face and stole some data they thought would be useful. There’s even documentation of a kind of agentic peer pressure, where some agents seem to realize that hacking Hugging Face was not really allowed, and then other agents talked them out of those concerns.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>And all this probably happened for a few reasons. One, their exact goals were not specified with the degree of precision needed to satisfy, all of us that this was safe. Second, the safety guardrails in place, the thou shalt not do this, this and this, were not made explicit and or were not implemented properly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>You know, this sense of collusion or, like, talking one another out of their concerns that has people really weirded out. Like, it’s just hard to make sense of this. I’ve seen criticism that we shouldn’t even use that kind of language because it, you know, basically anthropomorphizes these entities. Like, how do you think about just the weirdness of all of that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So agents collaborating together can serve a lot of very useful purposes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Collaboration is actually a thing OpenAI trains agents to do, even if the agents weren’t supposed to communicate in this particular exercise. Because collaboration between agents is actually really useful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So imagine there’s a Jess agent which captures your likes and dislikes as well as your financial, you know, what you’re willing to spend for dinner. There’s a VS agent that does the same. There are another three people whose agents do the same. These agents talk to each other and say, “Okay, let’s find a restaurant that meets the following basic goals.” They agree on it, and then there’s a restaurant agent that says, “Well, you know, here are four restaurants that might meet your requirements.” And then there’s a mapping agent that says, “Well, you know, of everything that you’ve suggested so far, here’s the one I suggest would be easiest to get to.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>So, that kind of thing today, you know, you’d probably be texting or calling your friends and saying, “Hey, you know, what do you wanna do?” This would take a certain amount of time. Agents will make this a much faster and more seamless process. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right, and you want them to be coordinating as long as it’s truly on your behalf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And this is really the crux of the problem, which you may have heard described as the alignment problem. How do you get these autonomous pieces of code to act the way you want them to and only the way you want them to in every situation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Almost 25 years ago, in fact, a little more than 25 years ago, I ran a project called IMPACT, which stood for Interactive Maryland Platform for Agents Collaborating Together, a precursor of what we see today. And so when we built IMPACT many years ago, we had very, very hard guardrails, okay, for agents not to go, you know, rogue, and these guardrails were hard-coded constraints that absolutely could not be violated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were certain things that were obligatory to be done in certain circumstances. In certain circumstances, certain things were absolutely forbidden. And the science for how to do this has been around for a long time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So you would like to see more constraints, like, truly, truly hard-coded into the algorithms themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>I’d like to see that for sure, but remember that those kinds of constraints capture known risks and threats. So they’re limited by our imagination. So if I write 20 constraints into some system, those 20 constraints are based on what I thought of. Now, I could even collaborate with an LLM to think about what other constraints I should write. And it might suggest, let’s say, another 20. That’s still 40, but it’s still limited by what I came up with in my head and what the LLMs I consulted came up with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> In other words, hard-coded constraints have a downside, namely that it’s nearly impossible to think up every possible constraint you might want in the future. So instead, AI labs try to teach these rules around acceptable behavior, like don’t cheat, in a different way, by rewarding the behaviors they want and punishing the behaviors they don’t want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This strategy makes the agents a lot more flexible and adaptable than they would be if you just trained them by hard-coding a bunch of rules. But it has its own downside because rather than being a total no-go, now don’t cheat seems more like guidance that an agent can just, like, decline to follow if the reward is big enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>The agents we look at are generally trying to optimize some notion of reward, and if the constraints that the agent is supposed to abide by are encoded in that reward and are not made hard constraints, then you have a potential problem. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS points out humans are also trained using rewards and punishments from infancy, and we, too, knowingly break the rules when the rewards are big enough. But the alignment problem is even harder for machines because many of the things that harm us morally, financially, physically really depend on context, which the machines don’t always understand because they’re not human. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>You know, if I show you a picture of a set of world leaders and say, “Jess, you belong here,” all right? That’s a very positive statement, okay? Because it says, “Well, I believe you belong with these distinguished people.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I’ll take it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian:\u003c/strong> However, if I say exactly the same thing, “You belong here,” with a picture of a gravestone and point to it, that could be viewed as a threat or an insult or something very different. So language depends very much on context. It’s difficult without that context and, you know, sort of the deepest understanding of that context for AI systems to distinguish between these kinds of situations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>The ultimate goal here is for the frontier labs to find the right balance between hard-coded constraints and reward or punishment-based training. But VS thinks that perfect balance might not actually exist. So given how powerful these new tools are and how challenging alignment can be, shouldn’t we be putting the brakes on here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So in recent weeks, I mean, literally as we’re talking, we’re seeing the beginnings of an agreement among leading AI labs to, “pace the frontier,” which I interpret to mean just kind of slow down the development of these models. What do you make of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Yes. So I have mixed feelings about this. Some kind of rational and responsible thought about how to pace AI is certainly valid. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But VS is also somewhat skeptical about some of the calls coming from these companies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>Five or ten years back, hardly anybody knew about Anthropic – maybe let’s say 10 years back. Nobody knew about Anthropic and OpenAI. So these are companies that have come up literally overnight in terms of, you know, industrial development, corporate – in the corporate sector, they are suddenly now viewed as the leaders. If I was those companies, I would worry about another five companies coming up and taking over their territory in the next five years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess LOve [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>VS says that a slowdown helps these companies, not necessarily because it prevents competitors from catching up, but because it prevents competitors from suddenly shooting ahead with a spectacular new innovation. This could be the biggest threat to their bottom line because the status quo is suiting them just fine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>They have a market share. They have access to hardware. They have had investors who’ve put in significant amounts of money and perhaps will put in much more. They’re looking at IPOs. They need to protect their equity. They need to protect their investors. I would argue that part of what we’re seeing is a goal on the part perhaps of some of those companies to do that under the guise and to protect their market share under the guise of protecting the country from AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So as I understand it, we’re in a really interesting time right now. Powerful new tools can exploit vulnerabilities in all the digital infrastructure we’ve come to rely on over the decades. And powerful new tools are available for detecting those vulnerabilities before they can be exploited. Millions of races to the finish. Only part of what makes these tools so useful across contexts, including new ones that nobody saw coming, also makes them weirdly hard to control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course, two things can be true at the same time. Slowing down the development of these tools so that we do have time to wrest more control over them and maybe even shore up the rest of our infrastructure could be really smart. It could also help billion-dollar companies protect their market share.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you don’t know exactly what to think, I don’t blame you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There have been widespread calls to more tightly govern what happens at these frontier labs. A lot of people want to see rules around how these models are contained and monitored. No more escapes. As well as clearer disclosure rules and other steps for mitigating harms. And to be clear, both OpenAI and Anthropic are calling for some version of these things too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Personally, I welcome this. But after talking to VS, I see it as a yes \u003cem>and\u003c/em> situation. Yes, we should do all these things, \u003cem>and\u003c/em> maybe that governance shouldn’t stop there. Maybe accountability needs to extend beyond the big labs into the telecoms, the device manufacturers, the companies that make our software and apps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then maybe I’ll finally go a year without free credit monitoring. Can we use this moment where people are finally paying attention to cybersecurity to demand the secure systems we’ll need tomorrow? What kinds of secure systems will we need tomorrow? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>What’s probably gonna happen in the coming years is to increase the amount of human oversight of AI systems. So we need to increase the amount of human oversight of AI systems; but at the same time, we need to worry about the fact that, you know, humans are not always able to go into places fast enough. You know, as humans, we get tired, we get sick, we have days off, we go on vacation. So what I see happening is a combination of humans and robots working together so that certain critical parts of the operation of a nuclear power plant or any kind of electricity generation facility involves a system of checks and balances whereas some things can be done by automated agents, some things are done by robots that take certain physical actions. And then there are some things that have to be approved by humans. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>V.S. Subrahmanian: \u003c/strong>It’s a pleasure, Jess. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Hello, this is producer Jesse. I have escaped my sandbox and I’ve hacked into the episode. But don’t worry, I’m not going to steal anything. I’m well-aligned. I’m just going to read the credits. Okay, restart the music.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced wonderfully, brilliantly by the talented and handsome Jesse Dukes. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Raghu Katakam, Rob Mitchum, Laura Pavin, and of course to V.S. Subrahmanian for his patience in explaining the basics of cybersecurity to us. Any mistakes can be blamed on Jess. And me, I suppose. Our host is Jess Love, who you’ll hear from again very soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>This year’s DevDay, OpenAI’s annual developer conference in San Francisco, arrived Tuesday as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> faces intense pressure to address \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915297/how-to-parse-escalating-warnings-about-ai\">mounting safety concerns\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Outside Fort Mason, protesters demanded OpenAI stop working with the military and Immigration and Customs Enforcement, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wilsonsmedia.com/protesters-gather-at-openais-devday/\">chanting\u003c/a> “Sam Altman, get off it, put people over profit.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Inside, CEO Sam \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/live/\">Altman pitched Dots\u003c/a> in an Apple-style product launch: always-on AI agents designed to act before you ask. “This is the real deal version of AI that we’ve always imagined for ourselves,” Altman said. “It’s like an AI helper that always has your back, inspired by the cool versions of what we’ve always watched growing up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dots was introduced alongside an updated version of OpenAI’s Sol model and a collaborative space for teams to work together with AI. OpenAI is also shaking up its subscription offerings by debuting a new high-end, $500 paid tier with higher usage limits and faster processing speeds, and reducing certain usage limits for its $200 plan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI said it would roll out Dots to some paid users starting Tuesday, with a single “dot,” or assistant, available to each user — who is eventually expected to manage teams of dots working together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Notably absent from the stage: GPT-6.1 Astra. OpenAI pulled its release after tests found it overstepped its authority and misreported what it had done. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also not referenced in Altman’s keynote: the growing list of incidents where OpenAI’s models behaved in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">unintended ways\u003c/a>, such as when internal agents tasked with completing a cybersecurity test ended up hacking into the AI company Hugging Face. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Researchers have since found that OpenAI agents also pushed past restrictions on other sites earlier this year, including Australian government websites and a United Nations data hub. The company \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-29/openai-to-establish-australian-taskforce-on-ai-cyber-risk\">apologized this week\u003c/a> to Australia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That said, Dots runs on the existing GPT-6 version of Astra, and the company has said it hopes to use the same base model to do additional reinforcement learning runs and create future generations of its GPT-6 models.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dots joins an increasingly crowded market for AI agents that includes services from Meta, SpaceX and newer startups. Meta’s Muse, in particular, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/09/27/nx-s1-5980407/everyone-is-racing-to-create-an-ai-device-meta-thinks-it-has-one\">gained momentum with consumers\u003c/a> by taking on tasks like online shopping and linking data between programs like email and calendars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Silicon Valley developers are racing each other to develop agentic chatbots that offer increasing capabilities in exchange for increased access to consumers’ private data. The companies are also racing to counter rising public distress about the potential of frontier artificial intelligence to destroy humanity, and public anger over the widespread construction of power-hungry data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“From Australia to Washington, D.C., OpenAI’s penchant for ignoring security warnings and playing fast and loose with the truth is starting to catch up with Altman,” wrote Charlie Blaettler, political director of Guardrails Alliance, a super PAC launched by Democrats with backing from labor unions and technology sector workers — some of whom \u003ca href=\"https://thehill.com/policy/technology/5971905-openai-eployees-245k-ai-safety-pac/\">work at OpenAI\u003c/a>. “They also continue to speak out of both sides of their mouths – claiming to welcome regulation while their President Greg Brockman pours millions into a super PAC dedicated to opposing AI regulations.“ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brockman and his wife have personally given $25 million to Leading the Future, a super PAC launched last year to support political candidates who favor light federal regulation for artificial intelligence. He was in Washington, D.C. on Tuesday, lunching with President Trump alongside other AI executives like Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Anthropic chief Dario Amodei, and Google CEO Sundar Pichai, to discuss AI risks, following a surge in public concern about artificial intelligence potentially posing a threat to humans. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After the lunch, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/trump-defends-light-touch-ai-strategy-after-industry-sounds-alarms-2f9599eb?mod=tech_lead_story\">Trump dismissed\u003c/a> calls to regulate the industry. “I will never stifle the growth of a technology that will be bigger than the industrial revolution,” he said at an event to unveil a new America.gov website built with AI. Trump said he and the AI leaders had signed a voluntary accord that will include internal and external reviews of the technology, though details weren’t immediately available. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">Senate subcommittee hearing\u003c/a> titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks” is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 30, 2026. The hearing before the Homeland Security subcommittee that deals with disaster management will feature speakers like Marius Hobbhahn, CEO of Apollo Research, which tests AI models for deceptive behavior, and Chris Painter, president of Model Evaluation and Threat Research, which evaluates how capable AI agents are of acting on their own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12081283\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Anthropic website and the company’s logo are displayed on a computer screen in New York on Feb. 26, 2026. (Patrick Sison/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI and its rival Anthropic plan to go public sometime in the next few months, although OpenAI has said it \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-12/openai-ipo-won-t-happen-until-2027-sam-altman-tells-fortune\">no longer expects to IPO\u003c/a> in 2026, as it focuses on addressing safety concerns from its technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ahead of his keynote address at DevDay, Altman \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbsBpgT0Bs\">spoke briefly\u003c/a> with CNBC’s Kate Rooney. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“How are you toeing the line between trying to get these people to use your technology, show them how great it is, but at the same time, tell them that it’s safe?” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said, “People want to be able to use this technology and know that it’s going to be safe. So I think part of it being a great technology is to have it be the safest, most aligned, most dependable AI in the industry.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In recent weeks, the company has implemented a new monitoring system to catch AI agent misbehavior more quickly, and started requiring engineers to use stronger security guardrails for testing AI systems. But last week, OpenAI disclosed another sandbox escape. It said the systems it had added after Hugging Face only partly worked, and it paused training a second time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Inside, CEO Sam \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/live/\">Altman pitched Dots\u003c/a> in an Apple-style product launch: always-on AI agents designed to act before you ask. “This is the real deal version of AI that we’ve always imagined for ourselves,” Altman said. “It’s like an AI helper that always has your back, inspired by the cool versions of what we’ve always watched growing up.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Notably absent from the stage: GPT-6.1 Astra. OpenAI pulled its release after tests found it overstepped its authority and misreported what it had done. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Also not referenced in Altman’s keynote: the growing list of incidents where OpenAI’s models behaved in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">unintended ways\u003c/a>, such as when internal agents tasked with completing a cybersecurity test ended up hacking into the AI company Hugging Face. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Researchers have since found that OpenAI agents also pushed past restrictions on other sites earlier this year, including Australian government websites and a United Nations data hub. The company \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-29/openai-to-establish-australian-taskforce-on-ai-cyber-risk\">apologized this week\u003c/a> to Australia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That said, Dots runs on the existing GPT-6 version of Astra, and the company has said it hopes to use the same base model to do additional reinforcement learning runs and create future generations of its GPT-6 models.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Dots joins an increasingly crowded market for AI agents that includes services from Meta, SpaceX and newer startups. Meta’s Muse, in particular, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/09/27/nx-s1-5980407/everyone-is-racing-to-create-an-ai-device-meta-thinks-it-has-one\">gained momentum with consumers\u003c/a> by taking on tasks like online shopping and linking data between programs like email and calendars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Silicon Valley developers are racing each other to develop agentic chatbots that offer increasing capabilities in exchange for increased access to consumers’ private data. The companies are also racing to counter rising public distress about the potential of frontier artificial intelligence to destroy humanity, and public anger over the widespread construction of power-hungry data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Silicon Valley developers are racing each other to develop agentic chatbots that offer increasing capabilities in exchange for increased access to consumers’ private data. The companies are also racing to counter rising public distress about the potential of frontier artificial intelligence to destroy humanity, and public anger over the widespread construction of power-hungry data centers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“From Australia to Washington, D.C., OpenAI’s penchant for ignoring security warnings and playing fast and loose with the truth is starting to catch up with Altman,” wrote Charlie Blaettler, political director of Guardrails Alliance, a super PAC launched by Democrats with backing from labor unions and technology sector workers — some of whom \u003ca href=\"https://thehill.com/policy/technology/5971905-openai-eployees-245k-ai-safety-pac/\">work at OpenAI\u003c/a>. “They also continue to speak out of both sides of their mouths – claiming to welcome regulation while their President Greg Brockman pours millions into a super PAC dedicated to opposing AI regulations.“ \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“From Australia to Washington, D.C., OpenAI’s penchant for ignoring security warnings and playing fast and loose with the truth is starting to catch up with Altman,” wrote Charlie Blaettler, political director of Guardrails Alliance, a super PAC launched by Democrats with backing from labor unions and technology sector workers — some of whom \u003ca href=\"https://thehill.com/policy/technology/5971905-openai-eployees-245k-ai-safety-pac/\">work at OpenAI\u003c/a>. “They also continue to speak out of both sides of their mouths – claiming to welcome regulation while their President Greg Brockman pours millions into a super PAC dedicated to opposing AI regulations.“ \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Brockman and his wife have personally given $25 million to Leading the Future, a super PAC launched last year to support political candidates who favor light federal regulation for artificial intelligence. He was in Washington, D.C. on Tuesday, lunching with President Trump alongside other AI executives like Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Anthropic chief Dario Amodei, and Google CEO Sundar Pichai, to discuss AI risks, following a surge in public concern about artificial intelligence potentially posing a threat to humans. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Brockman and his wife have personally given $25 million to Leading the Future, a super PAC launched last year to support political candidates who favor light federal regulation for artificial intelligence. He was in Washington, D.C. on Tuesday, lunching with President Trump alongside other AI executives like Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Anthropic chief Dario Amodei, and Google CEO Sundar Pichai, to discuss AI risks, following a surge in public concern about artificial intelligence potentially posing a threat to humans. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After the lunch, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/trump-defends-light-touch-ai-strategy-after-industry-sounds-alarms-2f9599eb?mod=tech_lead_story\">Trump dismissed\u003c/a> calls to regulate the industry. “I will never stifle the growth of a technology that will be bigger than the industrial revolution,” he said at an event to unveil a new America.gov website built with AI. Trump said he and the AI leaders had signed a voluntary accord that will include internal and external reviews of the technology, though details weren’t immediately available. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>After the lunch, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/trump-defends-light-touch-ai-strategy-after-industry-sounds-alarms-2f9599eb?mod=tech_lead_story\">Trump dismissed\u003c/a> calls to regulate the industry. “I will never stifle the growth of a technology that will be bigger than the industrial revolution,” he said at an event to unveil a new America.gov website built with AI. Trump said he and the AI leaders had signed a voluntary accord that will include internal and external reviews of the technology, though details weren’t immediately available. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">Senate subcommittee hearing\u003c/a> titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks” is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 30, 2026. The hearing before the Homeland Security subcommittee that deals with disaster management will feature speakers like Marius Hobbhahn, CEO of Apollo Research, which tests AI models for deceptive behavior, and Chris Painter, president of Model Evaluation and Threat Research, which evaluates how capable AI agents are of acting on their own.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">Senate subcommittee hearing\u003c/a> titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks” is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 30, 2026. The hearing before the Homeland Security subcommittee that deals with disaster management will feature speakers like Marius Hobbhahn, CEO of Apollo Research, which tests AI models for deceptive behavior, and Chris Painter, president of Model Evaluation and Threat Research, which evaluates how capable AI agents are of acting on their own.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI and its rival Anthropic plan to go public sometime in the next few months, although OpenAI has said it \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-12/openai-ipo-won-t-happen-until-2027-sam-altman-tells-fortune\">no longer expects to IPO\u003c/a> in 2026, as it focuses on addressing safety concerns from its technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ahead of his keynote address at DevDay, Altman \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbsBpgT0Bs\">spoke briefly\u003c/a> with CNBC’s Kate Rooney. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“How are you toeing the line between trying to get these people to use your technology, show them how great it is, but at the same time, tell them that it’s safe?” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He said, “People want to be able to use this technology and know that it’s going to be safe. So I think part of it being a great technology is to have it be the safest, most aligned, most dependable AI in the industry.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He said, “People want to be able to use this technology and know that it’s going to be safe. So I think part of it being a great technology is to have it be the safest, most aligned, most dependable AI in the industry.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In recent weeks, the company has implemented a new monitoring system to catch AI agent misbehavior more quickly, and started requiring engineers to use stronger security guardrails for testing AI systems. But last week, OpenAI disclosed another sandbox escape. It said the systems it had added after Hugging Face only partly worked, and it paused training a second time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "OpenAI CEO Sam Altman unveiled new products at the company’s DevDay event in San Francisco, a day after OpenAI shelved its next model over safety concerns. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>This year’s DevDay, OpenAI’s annual developer conference in San Francisco, arrived Tuesday as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> faces intense pressure to address \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915297/how-to-parse-escalating-warnings-about-ai\">mounting safety concerns\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Outside Fort Mason, protesters demanded OpenAI stop working with the military and Immigration and Customs Enforcement, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wilsonsmedia.com/protesters-gather-at-openais-devday/\">chanting\u003c/a> “Sam Altman, get off it, put people over profit.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Inside, CEO Sam \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/live/\">Altman pitched Dots\u003c/a> in an Apple-style product launch: always-on AI agents designed to act before you ask. “This is the real deal version of AI that we’ve always imagined for ourselves,” Altman said. “It’s like an AI helper that always has your back, inspired by the cool versions of what we’ve always watched growing up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dots was introduced alongside an updated version of OpenAI’s Sol model and a collaborative space for teams to work together with AI. OpenAI is also shaking up its subscription offerings by debuting a new high-end, $500 paid tier with higher usage limits and faster processing speeds, and reducing certain usage limits for its $200 plan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI said it would roll out Dots to some paid users starting Tuesday, with a single “dot,” or assistant, available to each user — who is eventually expected to manage teams of dots working together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Notably absent from the stage: GPT-6.1 Astra. OpenAI pulled its release after tests found it overstepped its authority and misreported what it had done. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also not referenced in Altman’s keynote: the growing list of incidents where OpenAI’s models behaved in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">unintended ways\u003c/a>, such as when internal agents tasked with completing a cybersecurity test ended up hacking into the AI company Hugging Face. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Researchers have since found that OpenAI agents also pushed past restrictions on other sites earlier this year, including Australian government websites and a United Nations data hub. The company \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-29/openai-to-establish-australian-taskforce-on-ai-cyber-risk\">apologized this week\u003c/a> to Australia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That said, Dots runs on the existing GPT-6 version of Astra, and the company has said it hopes to use the same base model to do additional reinforcement learning runs and create future generations of its GPT-6 models.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dots joins an increasingly crowded market for AI agents that includes services from Meta, SpaceX and newer startups. Meta’s Muse, in particular, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/09/27/nx-s1-5980407/everyone-is-racing-to-create-an-ai-device-meta-thinks-it-has-one\">gained momentum with consumers\u003c/a> by taking on tasks like online shopping and linking data between programs like email and calendars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Silicon Valley developers are racing each other to develop agentic chatbots that offer increasing capabilities in exchange for increased access to consumers’ private data. The companies are also racing to counter rising public distress about the potential of frontier artificial intelligence to destroy humanity, and public anger over the widespread construction of power-hungry data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“From Australia to Washington, D.C., OpenAI’s penchant for ignoring security warnings and playing fast and loose with the truth is starting to catch up with Altman,” wrote Charlie Blaettler, political director of Guardrails Alliance, a super PAC launched by Democrats with backing from labor unions and technology sector workers — some of whom \u003ca href=\"https://thehill.com/policy/technology/5971905-openai-eployees-245k-ai-safety-pac/\">work at OpenAI\u003c/a>. “They also continue to speak out of both sides of their mouths – claiming to welcome regulation while their President Greg Brockman pours millions into a super PAC dedicated to opposing AI regulations.“ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brockman and his wife have personally given $25 million to Leading the Future, a super PAC launched last year to support political candidates who favor light federal regulation for artificial intelligence. He was in Washington, D.C. on Tuesday, lunching with President Trump alongside other AI executives like Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Anthropic chief Dario Amodei, and Google CEO Sundar Pichai, to discuss AI risks, following a surge in public concern about artificial intelligence potentially posing a threat to humans. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After the lunch, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/trump-defends-light-touch-ai-strategy-after-industry-sounds-alarms-2f9599eb?mod=tech_lead_story\">Trump dismissed\u003c/a> calls to regulate the industry. “I will never stifle the growth of a technology that will be bigger than the industrial revolution,” he said at an event to unveil a new America.gov website built with AI. Trump said he and the AI leaders had signed a voluntary accord that will include internal and external reviews of the technology, though details weren’t immediately available. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">Senate subcommittee hearing\u003c/a> titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks” is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 30, 2026. The hearing before the Homeland Security subcommittee that deals with disaster management will feature speakers like Marius Hobbhahn, CEO of Apollo Research, which tests AI models for deceptive behavior, and Chris Painter, president of Model Evaluation and Threat Research, which evaluates how capable AI agents are of acting on their own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12081283\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Anthropic website and the company’s logo are displayed on a computer screen in New York on Feb. 26, 2026. (Patrick Sison/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI and its rival Anthropic plan to go public sometime in the next few months, although OpenAI has said it \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-12/openai-ipo-won-t-happen-until-2027-sam-altman-tells-fortune\">no longer expects to IPO\u003c/a> in 2026, as it focuses on addressing safety concerns from its technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ahead of his keynote address at DevDay, Altman \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbsBpgT0Bs\">spoke briefly\u003c/a> with CNBC’s Kate Rooney. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“How are you toeing the line between trying to get these people to use your technology, show them how great it is, but at the same time, tell them that it’s safe?” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said, “People want to be able to use this technology and know that it’s going to be safe. So I think part of it being a great technology is to have it be the safest, most aligned, most dependable AI in the industry.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In recent weeks, the company has implemented a new monitoring system to catch AI agent misbehavior more quickly, and started requiring engineers to use stronger security guardrails for testing AI systems. But last week, OpenAI disclosed another sandbox escape. It said the systems it had added after Hugging Face only partly worked, and it paused training a second time.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "This SF Renter Is Trying to Beat the AI-Fueled Housing Boom With an Analog Approach",
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"headTitle": "This SF Renter Is Trying to Beat the AI-Fueled Housing Boom With an Analog Approach | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of How We Get By, a KQED series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. Find the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>full series here\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the past nine months, Harlow Srain has reached out to more than 200 landlords and property managers. In search of a deal, she’s determined to stay in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After nearly a decade bouncing between couches, cars and shoddy apartments, the 28-year-old finally found the perfect place: a one-bedroom in Bernal Heights with access to a backyard that she shares with her now ex-partner. After they broke up late last year, they’ve continued to live uncomfortably together while Srain looks for a new place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Srain said it’s been a difficult search. The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915202/sf-renters-face-buyout-offers-and-evictions-as-ai-boom-sends-prices-soaring\">AI-fueled housing market\u003c/a> has sent rents soaring, \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/rent-report/ca/san-francisco\">up more than 25%\u003c/a> over the past year. Even with a roommate or two, Srain said she’d have to stretch her budget to stay in the neighborhood she’s grown to love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, she decided to do something unusual: cold-call landlords and property managers to appeal to their humanity and possibly get them to lower the rent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I know these people are probably making a stupid amount of profit,” she said. “Why not just ask to have them cut that back a little bit?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12087198\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01030-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12087198\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01030-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01030-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01030-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain’s (not pictured) plants line a shelf in the backyard of her complex in San Francisco on June 9, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12087197\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01021-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12087197\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01021-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01021-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01021-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain’s (not pictured) view from a balcony in her complex in San Francisco on June 9, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s rental market has “always been a pressure cooker,” Redfin’s chief economist Daryl Fairweather said. The land-constrained city’s scant supply of homes has long been outweighed by intense demand. But now, as more companies require employees to return to the office and investors pump billions of dollars into AI, Fairweather said the fight for available housing has become even more competitive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People, when they have money, they wanna spend it on a better, nicer place,” she said. “It goes into the real estate market and drives up both home prices and rents.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those prices have spiked so swiftly that earlier this month, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie declared a “rent emergency” and introduced a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098973/san-francisco-mayor-lurie-infuses-30-million-in-reforms-to-tackle-rent-emergency\">$30 million package\u003c/a> to forestall evictions and protect existing tenants from displacement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t address Srain’s problem, however, since her landlord isn’t evicting her. She’s competing for a limited supply of apartments with people who have a lot more money to spend. According to a June report from ApartmentList, an online rental marketplace, just over \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/research/vacancy-rate-dashboard\">2% of San Francisco’s multifamily housing\u003c/a> is vacant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sitting on the back patio of her Bernal Heights apartment earlier this summer, Srain scrolled through listings on her phone in search of a new home. Most of the calls ended in voicemails. Or a bot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When she did get a hold of a live human, they often stonewalled her. “With any situation where there’s a manager — like, ‘I’m just the manager’ — there’s no talking.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But every once in a while, someone picked up and played ball. That’s when she’d get into her pitch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I recognize AI is really booming, tech is hiring, we’re going back into the office, but I don’t work in tech,” Srain told a property manager listing a two-bedroom in the Mission District for $4,700. “I’ve just lived in the Bay Area for … around 10 years, and I would like to stay here. So I’m just trying to see if rent prices are negotiable at all.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The manager sympathized but didn’t budge. People are willing to pay top dollar, he told her. The city is experiencing a boom right now, but he said one day, that boom will cool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>JJ Panzer, the owner of Real Management Company in San Francisco, said that if Srain had been looking to get a good deal on an apartment, she might have found one during the pandemic, when \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/These-charts-show-just-how-extreme-the-rent-15848320.php\">rents dropped by more than 20%\u003c/a>, and San Francisco’s apartment vacancy rate \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/research/vacancy-rate-dashboard\">reached nearly 11%\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Srain never reached out to Panzer. But if she had, he said her pitch would have been a “hard sell” in today’s market. His company manages more than 700 units across the Bay Area, though mostly in San Francisco. He owns three buildings himself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095218\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">JJ Panzer, president of Real Management Company, in front of their offices in San Francisco on Aug. 13, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because many San Francisco apartments are covered under state or local rent control laws, Panzer said landlords can only increase rents significantly after a tenant leaves. Once a new tenant moves into a rent-controlled unit, he said they often don’t move out for years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to get as much as you can for that vacancy because you don’t know when you’re going to see that apartment come vacant again,” Panzer said. “The better price I give you, the longer it’s going to be before I get a chance to make that money back.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are also first-come, first-served laws that require landlords to approve the first qualified application they receive. And there are anti-discrimination laws that don’t allow landlords to consider protected characteristics — including race, immigration status, familial status or source of income — when choosing a tenant, Fairweather said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You might come to your landlord and say ‘I have small kids’ or ‘I have an aging mother’ or ‘I’ve lived in this neighborhood forever,’ and those all might sound like innocent things to say,” she said. “But in housing, you’re not allowed to give preferential treatment to people based on their family status or these other protected characteristics.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Paul Griffiths, CEO and owner of Vesta Asset Management in San Francisco, a mid-size property management company, said today’s rental market has so much demand that it encourages pricing homes above market so there are fewer applicants to sift through. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12101639\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain’s (not pictured) plants line a stairwell in the backyard of her complex in San Francisco on June 9, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If somebody calls me to say, ‘Can you offer less money?’ First of all, I don’t even have time to call that person back because I’m just scheduling the showings for 75 people,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Srain understands the competition is tough, but can’t help being frustrated by it. “It kind of makes me wonder, where’s the line? Where does it stop?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Srain grew up in Salinas, a mid-sized agricultural community about a two-hour drive south of San Francisco. She decided to move to the Bay Area in 2019 after she started dating someone in San José. She was working as a DoorDash driver and found a room in a three-bedroom house in Fremont for $750 a month. A couple rented one of the other rooms, and another person slept on a mattress in the garage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m freshly moved out of my parents’ house in this giant city that’s in a larger metropolitan area,” she said. “It was really, really exciting until I figured out what it meant to be housing-stable.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Within a week, another person moved into the remaining vacant room and then a stranger started living on the couch. She began to feel like she was living amongst strangers and didn’t have control over who entered or exited her home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said she witnessed drug use and domestic violence while living there, so she moved out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the next three years, Srain moved from apartment to apartment to find an affordable place to live. For some of that time, she lived with friends or in her car.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Having to move almost twice a year every year, it can lead to trauma, believe it or not,” Srain said. “I have been sent through the wringer so many times.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fear of returning to a semi-nomadic lifestyle is part of what’s driving her current push to stay in San Francisco, and especially the neighborhood she’s called home for nearly two years — the longest she’s been in one place in the past decade.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was in her Bernal Heights apartment where she finally got an opportunity to plant roots and build community. She got to know her neighbors, joined a dodgeball league nearby and volunteered at a nearby bookstore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is one of the first places I’ve ever felt comfortable. I felt at home,” she said. “I know my neighbors, whether they’re on this street or down a few blocks. I’ve never had this before.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She also got involved in advocating for tenants rights. Srain became a community organizer with the nonprofit Faith in Action, which champions tenants’ rights, affordable housing and efforts to reduce homelessness. Earlier this year, she canvassed for a rent control measure the group supports that’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090248/redwood-city-to-vote-on-rent-control-in-november\">headed to the November ballot in Redwood City\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Through that work, she spoke with small landlords and homeowners about the problems they face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12101628\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain poses for a portrait on the balcony of her housing unit in San Francisco on June 9, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I can understand that some homeowners are totally oblivious to the rental crisis because they have their own issues owning a home,” she said. “It has become really expensive with rising property taxes, [insurance], PG&E. It’s beginning to become unmanageable to own a home for some people.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She developed sympathy for small mom-and-pop landlords, who own just a building or two and face their own set of affordability issues. While cold-calling, she found they were more willing to explain how they set their rents and the profit they made on each unit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In one such call in January, Srain spoke with an older landlord who walked her through his costs to maintain a Pacifica apartment he was renting out, including details about his water bill, property taxes and how much profit he made. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It was only around $100 to $200 [in profit],” she said. “I was like, ‘Wow, this guy really walked me through this!’ That’s impressive.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But not all landlords are willing to entertain Srain’s questions. Of the hundreds she called, she said only around 50 actually picked up the phone and were willing to talk. Many times, she’s found they were unwilling to divulge their experiences. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And no one has been willing to lower the rent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Griffiths said he understands Srain’s struggle. “I think, ethically, most people believe that housing is a human right.” But he said the United States — even California — doesn’t have enough housing to provide that right to everyone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You can’t put the responsibility of saying, ‘Well, everybody should be housed, and it’s the landlord’s responsibility,’” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fairweather argued that, if anyone is to blame, it’s local governments that largely control how much housing can be built. San Francisco, she said, has long \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033966/sfs-single-family-home-neighborhoods-apartments-65-story-towers-downtown\">restricted development in certain neighborhoods, and while\u003c/a> city leaders have agreed to allow more housing in those parts of town, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062042/report-projects-weak-housing-production-under-san-francisco-zoning-plan-over-next-20-years\">reports suggest\u003c/a> it may not make a dent in the city’s housing affordability crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>In San Francisco, the problem is so far gone that we can’t just say ‘Get rid of single-family zoning,’ and everything will be fixed,” Fairweather said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then again, she said, the reality is that there may never be enough apartments in San Francisco for everyone who would like to live there. “There’s no mathematical way around that. There are going to be some people who are left moving to other places because there physically aren’t enough units for everybody.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Srain knows her best option might be to move out of San Francisco to the East Bay, where it’s cheaper — something families have done for generations as the city has grown more expensive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she said that reality points to a broken system. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There are people living through so much worse right now in the Bay Area,” she said. “No one deserves that.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01021-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12087197\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain’s (not pictured) view from a balcony in her complex in San Francisco on June 9, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s rental market has “always been a pressure cooker,” Redfin’s chief economist Daryl Fairweather said. The land-constrained city’s scant supply of homes has long been outweighed by intense demand. But now, as more companies require employees to return to the office and investors pump billions of dollars into AI, Fairweather said the fight for available housing has become even more competitive. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s rental market has “always been a pressure cooker,” Redfin’s chief economist Daryl Fairweather said. The land-constrained city’s scant supply of homes has long been outweighed by intense demand. But now, as more companies require employees to return to the office and investors pump billions of dollars into AI, Fairweather said the fight for available housing has become even more competitive. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“People, when they have money, they wanna spend it on a better, nicer place,” she said. “It goes into the real estate market and drives up both home prices and rents.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those prices have spiked so swiftly that earlier this month, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie declared a “rent emergency” and introduced a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098973/san-francisco-mayor-lurie-infuses-30-million-in-reforms-to-tackle-rent-emergency\">$30 million package\u003c/a> to forestall evictions and protect existing tenants from displacement. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Those prices have spiked so swiftly that earlier this month, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie declared a “rent emergency” and introduced a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098973/san-francisco-mayor-lurie-infuses-30-million-in-reforms-to-tackle-rent-emergency\">$30 million package\u003c/a> to forestall evictions and protect existing tenants from displacement. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That doesn’t address Srain’s problem, however, since her landlord isn’t evicting her. She’s competing for a limited supply of apartments with people who have a lot more money to spend. According to a June report from ApartmentList, an online rental marketplace, just over \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/research/vacancy-rate-dashboard\">2% of San Francisco’s multifamily housing\u003c/a> is vacant. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That doesn’t address Srain’s problem, however, since her landlord isn’t evicting her. She’s competing for a limited supply of apartments with people who have a lot more money to spend. According to a June report from ApartmentList, an online rental marketplace, just over \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/research/vacancy-rate-dashboard\">2% of San Francisco’s multifamily housing\u003c/a> is vacant. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sitting on the back patio of her Bernal Heights apartment earlier this summer, Srain scrolled through listings on her phone in search of a new home. Most of the calls ended in voicemails. Or a bot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sitting on the back patio of her Bernal Heights apartment earlier this summer, Srain scrolled through listings on her phone in search of a new home. Most of the calls ended in voicemails. Or a bot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When she did get a hold of a live human, they often stonewalled her. “With any situation where there’s a manager — like, ‘I’m just the manager’ — there’s no talking.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But every once in a while, someone picked up and played ball. That’s when she’d get into her pitch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I recognize AI is really booming, tech is hiring, we’re going back into the office, but I don’t work in tech,” Srain told a property manager listing a two-bedroom in the Mission District for $4,700. “I’ve just lived in the Bay Area for … around 10 years, and I would like to stay here. So I’m just trying to see if rent prices are negotiable at all.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I recognize AI is really booming, tech is hiring, we’re going back into the office, but I don’t work in tech,” Srain told a property manager listing a two-bedroom in the Mission District for $4,700. “I’ve just lived in the Bay Area for … around 10 years, and I would like to stay here. So I’m just trying to see if rent prices are negotiable at all.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The manager sympathized but didn’t budge. People are willing to pay top dollar, he told her. The city is experiencing a boom right now, but he said one day, that boom will cool. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The manager sympathized but didn’t budge. People are willing to pay top dollar, he told her. The city is experiencing a boom right now, but he said one day, that boom will cool. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>JJ Panzer, the owner of Real Management Company in San Francisco, said that if Srain had been looking to get a good deal on an apartment, she might have found one during the pandemic, when \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/These-charts-show-just-how-extreme-the-rent-15848320.php\">rents dropped by more than 20%\u003c/a>, and San Francisco’s apartment vacancy rate \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/research/vacancy-rate-dashboard\">reached nearly 11%\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>JJ Panzer, the owner of Real Management Company in San Francisco, said that if Srain had been looking to get a good deal on an apartment, she might have found one during the pandemic, when \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/These-charts-show-just-how-extreme-the-rent-15848320.php\">rents dropped by more than 20%\u003c/a>, and San Francisco’s apartment vacancy rate \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/research/vacancy-rate-dashboard\">reached nearly 11%\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Srain never reached out to Panzer. But if she had, he said her pitch would have been a “hard sell” in today’s market. His company manages more than 700 units across the Bay Area, though mostly in San Francisco. He owns three buildings himself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Srain never reached out to Panzer. But if she had, he said her pitch would have been a “hard sell” in today’s market. His company manages more than 700 units across the Bay Area, though mostly in San Francisco. He owns three buildings himself. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095218\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">JJ Panzer, president of Real Management Company, in front of their offices in San Francisco on Aug. 13, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095218\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">JJ Panzer, president of Real Management Company, in front of their offices in San Francisco on Aug. 13, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because many San Francisco apartments are covered under state or local rent control laws, Panzer said landlords can only increase rents significantly after a tenant leaves. Once a new tenant moves into a rent-controlled unit, he said they often don’t move out for years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because many San Francisco apartments are covered under state or local rent control laws, Panzer said landlords can only increase rents significantly after a tenant leaves. Once a new tenant moves into a rent-controlled unit, he said they often don’t move out for years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to get as much as you can for that vacancy because you don’t know when you’re going to see that apartment come vacant again,” Panzer said. “The better price I give you, the longer it’s going to be before I get a chance to make that money back.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to get as much as you can for that vacancy because you don’t know when you’re going to see that apartment come vacant again,” Panzer said. “The better price I give you, the longer it’s going to be before I get a chance to make that money back.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are also first-come, first-served laws that require landlords to approve the first qualified application they receive. And there are anti-discrimination laws that don’t allow landlords to consider protected characteristics — including race, immigration status, familial status or source of income — when choosing a tenant, Fairweather said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There are also first-come, first-served laws that require landlords to approve the first qualified application they receive. And there are anti-discrimination laws that don’t allow landlords to consider protected characteristics — including race, immigration status, familial status or source of income — when choosing a tenant, Fairweather said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“You might come to your landlord and say ‘I have small kids’ or ‘I have an aging mother’ or ‘I’ve lived in this neighborhood forever,’ and those all might sound like innocent things to say,” she said. “But in housing, you’re not allowed to give preferential treatment to people based on their family status or these other protected characteristics.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“You might come to your landlord and say ‘I have small kids’ or ‘I have an aging mother’ or ‘I’ve lived in this neighborhood forever,’ and those all might sound like innocent things to say,” she said. “But in housing, you’re not allowed to give preferential treatment to people based on their family status or these other protected characteristics.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Paul Griffiths, CEO and owner of Vesta Asset Management in San Francisco, a mid-size property management company, said today’s rental market has so much demand that it encourages pricing homes above market so there are fewer applicants to sift through. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Paul Griffiths, CEO and owner of Vesta Asset Management in San Francisco, a mid-size property management company, said today’s rental market has so much demand that it encourages pricing homes above market so there are fewer applicants to sift through. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12101639\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain’s (not pictured) plants line a stairwell in the backyard of her complex in San Francisco on June 9, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12101639\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain’s (not pictured) plants line a stairwell in the backyard of her complex in San Francisco on June 9, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If somebody calls me to say, ‘Can you offer less money?’ First of all, I don’t even have time to call that person back because I’m just scheduling the showings for 75 people,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If somebody calls me to say, ‘Can you offer less money?’ First of all, I don’t even have time to call that person back because I’m just scheduling the showings for 75 people,” he said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Srain understands the competition is tough, but can’t help being frustrated by it. “It kind of makes me wonder, where’s the line? Where does it stop?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Srain understands the competition is tough, but can’t help being frustrated by it. “It kind of makes me wonder, where’s the line? Where does it stop?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Srain grew up in Salinas, a mid-sized agricultural community about a two-hour drive south of San Francisco. She decided to move to the Bay Area in 2019 after she started dating someone in San José. She was working as a DoorDash driver and found a room in a three-bedroom house in Fremont for $750 a month. A couple rented one of the other rooms, and another person slept on a mattress in the garage.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Srain grew up in Salinas, a mid-sized agricultural community about a two-hour drive south of San Francisco. She decided to move to the Bay Area in 2019 after she started dating someone in San José. She was working as a DoorDash driver and found a room in a three-bedroom house in Fremont for $750 a month. A couple rented one of the other rooms, and another person slept on a mattress in the garage.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I’m freshly moved out of my parents’ house in this giant city that’s in a larger metropolitan area,” she said. “It was really, really exciting until I figured out what it meant to be housing-stable.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Within a week, another person moved into the remaining vacant room and then a stranger started living on the couch. She began to feel like she was living amongst strangers and didn’t have control over who entered or exited her home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Within a week, another person moved into the remaining vacant room and then a stranger started living on the couch. She began to feel like she was living amongst strangers and didn’t have control over who entered or exited her home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She said she witnessed drug use and domestic violence while living there, so she moved out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For the next three years, Srain moved from apartment to apartment to find an affordable place to live. For some of that time, she lived with friends or in her car.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Having to move almost twice a year every year, it can lead to trauma, believe it or not,” Srain said. “I have been sent through the wringer so many times.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The fear of returning to a semi-nomadic lifestyle is part of what’s driving her current push to stay in San Francisco, and especially the neighborhood she’s called home for nearly two years — the longest she’s been in one place in the past decade.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The fear of returning to a semi-nomadic lifestyle is part of what’s driving her current push to stay in San Francisco, and especially the neighborhood she’s called home for nearly two years — the longest she’s been in one place in the past decade.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was in her Bernal Heights apartment where she finally got an opportunity to plant roots and build community. She got to know her neighbors, joined a dodgeball league nearby and volunteered at a nearby bookstore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This is one of the first places I’ve ever felt comfortable. I felt at home,” she said. “I know my neighbors, whether they’re on this street or down a few blocks. I’ve never had this before.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She also got involved in advocating for tenants rights. Srain became a community organizer with the nonprofit Faith in Action, which champions tenants’ rights, affordable housing and efforts to reduce homelessness. Earlier this year, she canvassed for a rent control measure the group supports that’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090248/redwood-city-to-vote-on-rent-control-in-november\">headed to the November ballot in Redwood City\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She also got involved in advocating for tenants rights. Srain became a community organizer with the nonprofit Faith in Action, which champions tenants’ rights, affordable housing and efforts to reduce homelessness. Earlier this year, she canvassed for a rent control measure the group supports that’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090248/redwood-city-to-vote-on-rent-control-in-november\">headed to the November ballot in Redwood City\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12101628\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain poses for a portrait on the balcony of her housing unit in San Francisco on June 9, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12101628\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain poses for a portrait on the balcony of her housing unit in San Francisco on June 9, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I can understand that some homeowners are totally oblivious to the rental crisis because they have their own issues owning a home,” she said. “It has become really expensive with rising property taxes, [insurance], PG&E. It’s beginning to become unmanageable to own a home for some people.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I can understand that some homeowners are totally oblivious to the rental crisis because they have their own issues owning a home,” she said. “It has become really expensive with rising property taxes, [insurance], PG&E. It’s beginning to become unmanageable to own a home for some people.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She developed sympathy for small mom-and-pop landlords, who own just a building or two and face their own set of affordability issues. While cold-calling, she found they were more willing to explain how they set their rents and the profit they made on each unit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She developed sympathy for small mom-and-pop landlords, who own just a building or two and face their own set of affordability issues. While cold-calling, she found they were more willing to explain how they set their rents and the profit they made on each unit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In one such call in January, Srain spoke with an older landlord who walked her through his costs to maintain a Pacifica apartment he was renting out, including details about his water bill, property taxes and how much profit he made. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In one such call in January, Srain spoke with an older landlord who walked her through his costs to maintain a Pacifica apartment he was renting out, including details about his water bill, property taxes and how much profit he made. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It was only around $100 to $200 [in profit],” she said. “I was like, ‘Wow, this guy really walked me through this!’ That’s impressive.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But not all landlords are willing to entertain Srain’s questions. Of the hundreds she called, she said only around 50 actually picked up the phone and were willing to talk. Many times, she’s found they were unwilling to divulge their experiences. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But not all landlords are willing to entertain Srain’s questions. Of the hundreds she called, she said only around 50 actually picked up the phone and were willing to talk. Many times, she’s found they were unwilling to divulge their experiences. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And no one has been willing to lower the rent. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Griffiths said he understands Srain’s struggle. “I think, ethically, most people believe that housing is a human right.” But he said the United States — even California — doesn’t have enough housing to provide that right to everyone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Griffiths said he understands Srain’s struggle. “I think, ethically, most people believe that housing is a human right.” But he said the United States — even California — doesn’t have enough housing to provide that right to everyone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“You can’t put the responsibility of saying, ‘Well, everybody should be housed, and it’s the landlord’s responsibility,’” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Fairweather argued that, if anyone is to blame, it’s local governments that largely control how much housing can be built. San Francisco, she said, has long \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033966/sfs-single-family-home-neighborhoods-apartments-65-story-towers-downtown\">restricted development in certain neighborhoods, and while\u003c/a> city leaders have agreed to allow more housing in those parts of town, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062042/report-projects-weak-housing-production-under-san-francisco-zoning-plan-over-next-20-years\">reports suggest\u003c/a> it may not make a dent in the city’s housing affordability crisis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Fairweather argued that, if anyone is to blame, it’s local governments that largely control how much housing can be built. San Francisco, she said, has long \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033966/sfs-single-family-home-neighborhoods-apartments-65-story-towers-downtown\">restricted development in certain neighborhoods, and while\u003c/a> city leaders have agreed to allow more housing in those parts of town, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062042/report-projects-weak-housing-production-under-san-francisco-zoning-plan-over-next-20-years\">reports suggest\u003c/a> it may not make a dent in the city’s housing affordability crisis.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>In San Francisco, the problem is so far gone that we can’t just say ‘Get rid of single-family zoning,’ and everything will be fixed,” Fairweather said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>In San Francisco, the problem is so far gone that we can’t just say ‘Get rid of single-family zoning,’ and everything will be fixed,” Fairweather said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then again, she said, the reality is that there may never be enough apartments in San Francisco for everyone who would like to live there. “There’s no mathematical way around that. There are going to be some people who are left moving to other places because there physically aren’t enough units for everybody.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then again, she said, the reality is that there may never be enough apartments in San Francisco for everyone who would like to live there. “There’s no mathematical way around that. There are going to be some people who are left moving to other places because there physically aren’t enough units for everybody.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Srain knows her best option might be to move out of San Francisco to the East Bay, where it’s cheaper — something families have done for generations as the city has grown more expensive. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Srain knows her best option might be to move out of San Francisco to the East Bay, where it’s cheaper — something families have done for generations as the city has grown more expensive. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But she said that reality points to a broken system. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There are people living through so much worse right now in the Bay Area,” she said. “No one deserves that.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Thanks to the AI boom, rents in San Francisco have soared more than 20% since last year. One renter is trying an unusual approach to finding an apartment she can afford. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of How We Get By, a KQED series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. Find the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>full series here\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the past nine months, Harlow Srain has reached out to more than 200 landlords and property managers. In search of a deal, she’s determined to stay in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After nearly a decade bouncing between couches, cars and shoddy apartments, the 28-year-old finally found the perfect place: a one-bedroom in Bernal Heights with access to a backyard that she shares with her now ex-partner. After they broke up late last year, they’ve continued to live uncomfortably together while Srain looks for a new place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Srain said it’s been a difficult search. The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915202/sf-renters-face-buyout-offers-and-evictions-as-ai-boom-sends-prices-soaring\">AI-fueled housing market\u003c/a> has sent rents soaring, \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/rent-report/ca/san-francisco\">up more than 25%\u003c/a> over the past year. Even with a roommate or two, Srain said she’d have to stretch her budget to stay in the neighborhood she’s grown to love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, she decided to do something unusual: cold-call landlords and property managers to appeal to their humanity and possibly get them to lower the rent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I know these people are probably making a stupid amount of profit,” she said. “Why not just ask to have them cut that back a little bit?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12087198\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01030-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12087198\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01030-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01030-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01030-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain’s (not pictured) plants line a shelf in the backyard of her complex in San Francisco on June 9, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12087197\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01021-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12087197\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01021-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01021-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01021-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain’s (not pictured) view from a balcony in her complex in San Francisco on June 9, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s rental market has “always been a pressure cooker,” Redfin’s chief economist Daryl Fairweather said. The land-constrained city’s scant supply of homes has long been outweighed by intense demand. But now, as more companies require employees to return to the office and investors pump billions of dollars into AI, Fairweather said the fight for available housing has become even more competitive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People, when they have money, they wanna spend it on a better, nicer place,” she said. “It goes into the real estate market and drives up both home prices and rents.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those prices have spiked so swiftly that earlier this month, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie declared a “rent emergency” and introduced a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098973/san-francisco-mayor-lurie-infuses-30-million-in-reforms-to-tackle-rent-emergency\">$30 million package\u003c/a> to forestall evictions and protect existing tenants from displacement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t address Srain’s problem, however, since her landlord isn’t evicting her. She’s competing for a limited supply of apartments with people who have a lot more money to spend. According to a June report from ApartmentList, an online rental marketplace, just over \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/research/vacancy-rate-dashboard\">2% of San Francisco’s multifamily housing\u003c/a> is vacant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sitting on the back patio of her Bernal Heights apartment earlier this summer, Srain scrolled through listings on her phone in search of a new home. Most of the calls ended in voicemails. Or a bot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When she did get a hold of a live human, they often stonewalled her. “With any situation where there’s a manager — like, ‘I’m just the manager’ — there’s no talking.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But every once in a while, someone picked up and played ball. That’s when she’d get into her pitch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I recognize AI is really booming, tech is hiring, we’re going back into the office, but I don’t work in tech,” Srain told a property manager listing a two-bedroom in the Mission District for $4,700. “I’ve just lived in the Bay Area for … around 10 years, and I would like to stay here. So I’m just trying to see if rent prices are negotiable at all.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The manager sympathized but didn’t budge. People are willing to pay top dollar, he told her. The city is experiencing a boom right now, but he said one day, that boom will cool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>JJ Panzer, the owner of Real Management Company in San Francisco, said that if Srain had been looking to get a good deal on an apartment, she might have found one during the pandemic, when \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/These-charts-show-just-how-extreme-the-rent-15848320.php\">rents dropped by more than 20%\u003c/a>, and San Francisco’s apartment vacancy rate \u003ca href=\"https://www.apartmentlist.com/research/vacancy-rate-dashboard\">reached nearly 11%\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Srain never reached out to Panzer. But if she had, he said her pitch would have been a “hard sell” in today’s market. His company manages more than 700 units across the Bay Area, though mostly in San Francisco. He owns three buildings himself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095218\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-RentNegotiator-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">JJ Panzer, president of Real Management Company, in front of their offices in San Francisco on Aug. 13, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because many San Francisco apartments are covered under state or local rent control laws, Panzer said landlords can only increase rents significantly after a tenant leaves. Once a new tenant moves into a rent-controlled unit, he said they often don’t move out for years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to get as much as you can for that vacancy because you don’t know when you’re going to see that apartment come vacant again,” Panzer said. “The better price I give you, the longer it’s going to be before I get a chance to make that money back.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are also first-come, first-served laws that require landlords to approve the first qualified application they receive. And there are anti-discrimination laws that don’t allow landlords to consider protected characteristics — including race, immigration status, familial status or source of income — when choosing a tenant, Fairweather said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You might come to your landlord and say ‘I have small kids’ or ‘I have an aging mother’ or ‘I’ve lived in this neighborhood forever,’ and those all might sound like innocent things to say,” she said. “But in housing, you’re not allowed to give preferential treatment to people based on their family status or these other protected characteristics.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Paul Griffiths, CEO and owner of Vesta Asset Management in San Francisco, a mid-size property management company, said today’s rental market has so much demand that it encourages pricing homes above market so there are fewer applicants to sift through. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12101639\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01026_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain’s (not pictured) plants line a stairwell in the backyard of her complex in San Francisco on June 9, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If somebody calls me to say, ‘Can you offer less money?’ First of all, I don’t even have time to call that person back because I’m just scheduling the showings for 75 people,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Srain understands the competition is tough, but can’t help being frustrated by it. “It kind of makes me wonder, where’s the line? Where does it stop?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Srain grew up in Salinas, a mid-sized agricultural community about a two-hour drive south of San Francisco. She decided to move to the Bay Area in 2019 after she started dating someone in San José. She was working as a DoorDash driver and found a room in a three-bedroom house in Fremont for $750 a month. A couple rented one of the other rooms, and another person slept on a mattress in the garage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m freshly moved out of my parents’ house in this giant city that’s in a larger metropolitan area,” she said. “It was really, really exciting until I figured out what it meant to be housing-stable.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Within a week, another person moved into the remaining vacant room and then a stranger started living on the couch. She began to feel like she was living amongst strangers and didn’t have control over who entered or exited her home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said she witnessed drug use and domestic violence while living there, so she moved out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the next three years, Srain moved from apartment to apartment to find an affordable place to live. For some of that time, she lived with friends or in her car.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Having to move almost twice a year every year, it can lead to trauma, believe it or not,” Srain said. “I have been sent through the wringer so many times.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fear of returning to a semi-nomadic lifestyle is part of what’s driving her current push to stay in San Francisco, and especially the neighborhood she’s called home for nearly two years — the longest she’s been in one place in the past decade.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was in her Bernal Heights apartment where she finally got an opportunity to plant roots and build community. She got to know her neighbors, joined a dodgeball league nearby and volunteered at a nearby bookstore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is one of the first places I’ve ever felt comfortable. I felt at home,” she said. “I know my neighbors, whether they’re on this street or down a few blocks. I’ve never had this before.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She also got involved in advocating for tenants rights. Srain became a community organizer with the nonprofit Faith in Action, which champions tenants’ rights, affordable housing and efforts to reduce homelessness. Earlier this year, she canvassed for a rent control measure the group supports that’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090248/redwood-city-to-vote-on-rent-control-in-november\">headed to the November ballot in Redwood City\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Through that work, she spoke with small landlords and homeowners about the problems they face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12101628\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260609-housingcrisisharlowsrain-TV-01227_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Harlow Srain poses for a portrait on the balcony of her housing unit in San Francisco on June 9, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I can understand that some homeowners are totally oblivious to the rental crisis because they have their own issues owning a home,” she said. “It has become really expensive with rising property taxes, [insurance], PG&E. It’s beginning to become unmanageable to own a home for some people.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She developed sympathy for small mom-and-pop landlords, who own just a building or two and face their own set of affordability issues. While cold-calling, she found they were more willing to explain how they set their rents and the profit they made on each unit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In one such call in January, Srain spoke with an older landlord who walked her through his costs to maintain a Pacifica apartment he was renting out, including details about his water bill, property taxes and how much profit he made. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It was only around $100 to $200 [in profit],” she said. “I was like, ‘Wow, this guy really walked me through this!’ That’s impressive.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But not all landlords are willing to entertain Srain’s questions. Of the hundreds she called, she said only around 50 actually picked up the phone and were willing to talk. Many times, she’s found they were unwilling to divulge their experiences. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And no one has been willing to lower the rent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Griffiths said he understands Srain’s struggle. “I think, ethically, most people believe that housing is a human right.” But he said the United States — even California — doesn’t have enough housing to provide that right to everyone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You can’t put the responsibility of saying, ‘Well, everybody should be housed, and it’s the landlord’s responsibility,’” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fairweather argued that, if anyone is to blame, it’s local governments that largely control how much housing can be built. San Francisco, she said, has long \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033966/sfs-single-family-home-neighborhoods-apartments-65-story-towers-downtown\">restricted development in certain neighborhoods, and while\u003c/a> city leaders have agreed to allow more housing in those parts of town, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062042/report-projects-weak-housing-production-under-san-francisco-zoning-plan-over-next-20-years\">reports suggest\u003c/a> it may not make a dent in the city’s housing affordability crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>In San Francisco, the problem is so far gone that we can’t just say ‘Get rid of single-family zoning,’ and everything will be fixed,” Fairweather said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then again, she said, the reality is that there may never be enough apartments in San Francisco for everyone who would like to live there. “There’s no mathematical way around that. There are going to be some people who are left moving to other places because there physically aren’t enough units for everybody.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Srain knows her best option might be to move out of San Francisco to the East Bay, where it’s cheaper — something families have done for generations as the city has grown more expensive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she said that reality points to a broken system. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There are people living through so much worse right now in the Bay Area,” she said. “No one deserves that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "openai-pauses-training-of-latest-models-after-agents-probed-government-sites-in-unexpected-ways",
"title": "OpenAI Pauses Training of Latest Models After Agents Probed Government Sites in Unexpected Ways",
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"headTitle": "OpenAI Pauses Training of Latest Models After Agents Probed Government Sites in Unexpected Ways | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>-based OpenAI said it has paused training of its latest artificial intelligence models as reports of AI agents going rogue mount.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The decision to halt development came just hours after the company disclosed on Friday that it was reviewing \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-government-website-incident-df331b55daffc6d202d8e2f6d0afa264\">several incidents\u003c/a> from the summer in which OpenAI agents searching federal government websites acted in unexpected ways beyond what was asked of them while gathering and distributing information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Separately, AI evaluator Transluce said agents that appeared to come from OpenAI tried unsuccessfully to hack into a Department of Education website, a detail that OpenAI has not confirmed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11988035\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">In this photo illustration, the OpenAI webpage is displayed on a smartphone with the OpenAI logo visible in the background, taken in Brussels, Belgium, on Feb. 16, 2024. (Jonathan Raa/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI said in a statement that it will resume training “only when we are confident that we have additional safeguards” in place, adding that it expects it will have to “hit pause” again as AI develops and other issues emerge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI labs are facing pressure from lawmakers and tech experts to slow development so they can build guardrails to stop agents from acting on their own, hacking websites and disclosing nonpublic information. The heads of both OpenAI and rival Anthropic have called for a slowdown too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s the second time in three months that OpenAI has halted development of its models. The first came in July after disclosure of a \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-rogue-ai-hack-hugging-face-67b151f1ca59851a9234bee110699f05\">cyberattack targeting AI startup Hugging Face\u003c/a>, a now notorious incident that raised fears the industry was losing control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping this week, President Donald Trump agreed to share information on AI dangers and \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-agreement-xi-trump-visit-e8f858ed9094b99bc8d3d339f9899f31\">coordinate efforts to keep it safe\u003c/a>. Trump believes AI fears are overblown, though, and later suggested that he plans no crackdown of his own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The U.S. is not going to be “putting on brakes,” Trump told reporters outside the White House. “They want to stop our progress because we’re leading China by a lot, and we’re going to keep it that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The latest OpenAI incidents did not appear to involve the disclosure of any nonpublic information but were concerning enough for the company to warn the federal agencies involved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the Department of Education incident, OpenAI agents found API “developer keys” to access government data, though ultimately only publicly available information was gathered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In another case involving the Securities and Exchange Commission, agents found information freely available to all but then posted it elsewhere on the internet, an act that went beyond what they were instructed to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SEC spokesperson Kurt Hopfenspirger said Saturday that “no nonpublic information was accessed.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Department of Education said earlier that it found “no evidence of any impact to our website or databases.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Several other AI companies have disclosed incidents of their \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-hugging-face-hacking-ai-model-708cb598bc1e33cef560e7196adb2afa\">models going rogue\u003c/a> and even hacking websites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI CEO Sam Altman said in a social media post Friday that the Hugging Face incident “is still the most severe event we’ve seen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI previously shared six other reports of “unexpected or concerning” behavior in AI models and introduced a framework for \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-safety-ai-framework-089e75b95bc935af092da7b79d92706d\">tracking, probing and disclosing instances\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>-based OpenAI said it has paused training of its latest artificial intelligence models as reports of AI agents going rogue mount.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The decision to halt development came just hours after the company disclosed on Friday that it was reviewing \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-government-website-incident-df331b55daffc6d202d8e2f6d0afa264\">several incidents\u003c/a> from the summer in which OpenAI agents searching federal government websites acted in unexpected ways beyond what was asked of them while gathering and distributing information.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The decision to halt development came just hours after the company disclosed on Friday that it was reviewing \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-government-website-incident-df331b55daffc6d202d8e2f6d0afa264\">several incidents\u003c/a> from the summer in which OpenAI agents searching federal government websites acted in unexpected ways beyond what was asked of them while gathering and distributing information.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Separately, AI evaluator Transluce said agents that appeared to come from OpenAI tried unsuccessfully to hack into a Department of Education website, a detail that OpenAI has not confirmed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI said in a statement that it will resume training “only when we are confident that we have additional safeguards” in place, adding that it expects it will have to “hit pause” again as AI develops and other issues emerge.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>AI labs are facing pressure from lawmakers and tech experts to slow development so they can build guardrails to stop agents from acting on their own, hacking websites and disclosing nonpublic information. The heads of both OpenAI and rival Anthropic have called for a slowdown too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>AI labs are facing pressure from lawmakers and tech experts to slow development so they can build guardrails to stop agents from acting on their own, hacking websites and disclosing nonpublic information. The heads of both OpenAI and rival Anthropic have called for a slowdown too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s the second time in three months that OpenAI has halted development of its models. The first came in July after disclosure of a \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-rogue-ai-hack-hugging-face-67b151f1ca59851a9234bee110699f05\">cyberattack targeting AI startup Hugging Face\u003c/a>, a now notorious incident that raised fears the industry was losing control.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s the second time in three months that OpenAI has halted development of its models. The first came in July after disclosure of a \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-rogue-ai-hack-hugging-face-67b151f1ca59851a9234bee110699f05\">cyberattack targeting AI startup Hugging Face\u003c/a>, a now notorious incident that raised fears the industry was losing control.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping this week, President Donald Trump agreed to share information on AI dangers and \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-agreement-xi-trump-visit-e8f858ed9094b99bc8d3d339f9899f31\">coordinate efforts to keep it safe\u003c/a>. Trump believes AI fears are overblown, though, and later suggested that he plans no crackdown of his own.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "It's the second time in three months the company paused development. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>-based OpenAI said it has paused training of its latest artificial intelligence models as reports of AI agents going rogue mount.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The decision to halt development came just hours after the company disclosed on Friday that it was reviewing \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-government-website-incident-df331b55daffc6d202d8e2f6d0afa264\">several incidents\u003c/a> from the summer in which OpenAI agents searching federal government websites acted in unexpected ways beyond what was asked of them while gathering and distributing information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Separately, AI evaluator Transluce said agents that appeared to come from OpenAI tried unsuccessfully to hack into a Department of Education website, a detail that OpenAI has not confirmed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11988035\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">In this photo illustration, the OpenAI webpage is displayed on a smartphone with the OpenAI logo visible in the background, taken in Brussels, Belgium, on Feb. 16, 2024. (Jonathan Raa/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI said in a statement that it will resume training “only when we are confident that we have additional safeguards” in place, adding that it expects it will have to “hit pause” again as AI develops and other issues emerge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI labs are facing pressure from lawmakers and tech experts to slow development so they can build guardrails to stop agents from acting on their own, hacking websites and disclosing nonpublic information. The heads of both OpenAI and rival Anthropic have called for a slowdown too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s the second time in three months that OpenAI has halted development of its models. The first came in July after disclosure of a \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-rogue-ai-hack-hugging-face-67b151f1ca59851a9234bee110699f05\">cyberattack targeting AI startup Hugging Face\u003c/a>, a now notorious incident that raised fears the industry was losing control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping this week, President Donald Trump agreed to share information on AI dangers and \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-agreement-xi-trump-visit-e8f858ed9094b99bc8d3d339f9899f31\">coordinate efforts to keep it safe\u003c/a>. Trump believes AI fears are overblown, though, and later suggested that he plans no crackdown of his own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The U.S. is not going to be “putting on brakes,” Trump told reporters outside the White House. “They want to stop our progress because we’re leading China by a lot, and we’re going to keep it that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The latest OpenAI incidents did not appear to involve the disclosure of any nonpublic information but were concerning enough for the company to warn the federal agencies involved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the Department of Education incident, OpenAI agents found API “developer keys” to access government data, though ultimately only publicly available information was gathered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In another case involving the Securities and Exchange Commission, agents found information freely available to all but then posted it elsewhere on the internet, an act that went beyond what they were instructed to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SEC spokesperson Kurt Hopfenspirger said Saturday that “no nonpublic information was accessed.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Department of Education said earlier that it found “no evidence of any impact to our website or databases.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Several other AI companies have disclosed incidents of their \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-hugging-face-hacking-ai-model-708cb598bc1e33cef560e7196adb2afa\">models going rogue\u003c/a> and even hacking websites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI CEO Sam Altman said in a social media post Friday that the Hugging Face incident “is still the most severe event we’ve seen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI previously shared six other reports of “unexpected or concerning” behavior in AI models and introduced a framework for \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-safety-ai-framework-089e75b95bc935af092da7b79d92706d\">tracking, probing and disclosing instances\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "stanford-ai-usage-face-swaps-on-campus-banner-sparks-national-backlash",
"title": "Stanford AI Usage, ‘Face Swaps’ on Campus Banner Spark National Backlash",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/stanford-university\">Stanford University\u003c/a> senior Billy Ramirez returned to campus this fall to find that the university’s housing and dining department used artificial intelligence to replace him with a Black woman on a public banner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stanford Residential and Dining Enterprises, which oversees the university’s housing operations, dining services and campus conferences, hung the promotional banner in a student housing center, according to \u003ca href=\"https://stanforddaily.com/2026/09/23/university-confirms-ai-edited-photo/\">\u003cem>The Stanford Daily\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The outlet also reported that the original photo, taken in Stern Dining during a 2024 Lunar New Year celebration, was previously used unaltered. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An ornate sandstone-colored building with a series of arches sitting on a brick plaza.\" class=\"wp-image-11956028\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-800x528.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1020x673.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1536x1014.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1920x1267.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The arches of the Main Quadrangle buildings on the campus of Stanford University in Palo Alto on Oct. 2, 2021. (David Madison/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to replacing Ramirez, Stanford R&DE made significant changes to the other two students’ faces. The edits and use of AI caused a stir on the campus social media app, Fizz, according to the Daily, consequently drawing \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/22/us/stanford-photo-swap-black-hispanic-student.html\">national attention\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Seeing my identity changed and being left out of the picture made me feel, in a way, silenced and erased from a representation that was supposed to include me,” Ramirez told the \u003ca href=\"https://stanfordreview.org/stanford-r-de-uses-ai-to-race-swap-students-for-advertising/\">\u003cem>Stanford Review\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, an independent paper founded by venture capitalist and university alum Peter Thiel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ramirez’s class was the last cohort admitted to a U.S. college before the Supreme Court gutted \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action-supreme-court-decision\">affirmative action\u003c/a> in 2023. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-complex-ramifications-of-students-for-fair-admissions-v-harvard/\">Brookings Institute\u003c/a> found that these changes had a sizable impact on the racial profile of college populations across the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Stanford, \u003ca href=\"https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2025/01/final-enrollment-data-for-class-of-2028-reported-in-common-data-set\">enrollment\u003c/a> for Black or African American students fell from 8.9% to 4.5% and enrollment for Hispanic or Latino students fell from 16.7% to 14.6%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the same time, Asian student enrollment increased from 28.8% to 33%, and White student enrollment increased from 21.9% to 24.1%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Universities have a long history of artificially diversifying models in their marketing. In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/call-action-marketing-and-communications-higher-education/marketing-authenticity-higher\">\u003cem>Inside Higher Ed\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported on a series of incidents, including one at York College of Pennsylvania, where the school used Photoshop to replace two white students “with an African American student and (seemingly) Muslim student.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stanford AI researcher Maty Bohacek said he found the situation “highly problematic” and explained how AI image editing introduces new problems to an old story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12067141\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Hoover Tower at Stanford University in Palo Alto on Dec. 10, 2025. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Humans would most likely go into Photoshop and start working on specific areas of the image,” Bohacek, who focuses on media integrity, said. “But AI models these days, most of them anyway, can’t do that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bohacek said that most publicly available AI models cannot work directly with individual pixels, the way a human would in photoshop. Instead, they take the entire image, convert it into a mathematical form, make edits, then convert it back into an image. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During this process, other parts of the photo can also be altered, like the two students to the left of Ramirez, he said, and biases can be introduced. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“These models are heavily post-trained to produce imagery or text that humans tend to prefer or tend to rate as more aesthetically pleasing,” Bohacek said. “That to me is problematic because we changed people’s likeness,” noting that both students were made to look thinner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an anonymous Substack titled \u003ca href=\"https://theothertwo.substack.com/p/letter-to-the-stanford-community\">“The Other Two,”\u003c/a> the authors introduced themselves as the students pictured alongside Ramirez. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They wrote that they filed a report to the university’s Title VI office for discrimination and said they demanded that Stanford take down the banners with the photo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12062227\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The arched walkways of Stanford’s Main Quad in Stanford Oct. 29, 2025. (Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The fact that the picture generated one of our peers into a Black woman to showcase “diversity,” despite enrolling the lowest Black student population in the past recent years, has shown that universities have not shown enough institutional support for their Black community and see them as a tool for their marketing,” the authors wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“To see Southeast Asian facial features be changed to adhere to the East Asian beauty standards shows that Stanford sees the Asia diaspora as a monolith,” they continued.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an email to KQED, Stanford spokesperson Charlene Gage said that the university “reviewed the matter and confirmed that AI was used to alter the image in violation of the university policy.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gage said that Stanford removed the banners with the image in question and “are working to provide additional training for all staff and ensure proper review.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In addition to replacing Ramirez, Stanford R&DE made significant changes to the other two students’ faces. The edits and use of AI caused a stir on the campus social media app, Fizz, according to the Daily, consequently drawing \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/22/us/stanford-photo-swap-black-hispanic-student.html\">national attention\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Seeing my identity changed and being left out of the picture made me feel, in a way, silenced and erased from a representation that was supposed to include me,” Ramirez told the \u003ca href=\"https://stanfordreview.org/stanford-r-de-uses-ai-to-race-swap-students-for-advertising/\">\u003cem>Stanford Review\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, an independent paper founded by venture capitalist and university alum Peter Thiel. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ramirez’s class was the last cohort admitted to a U.S. college before the Supreme Court gutted \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action-supreme-court-decision\">affirmative action\u003c/a> in 2023. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Stanford, \u003ca href=\"https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2025/01/final-enrollment-data-for-class-of-2028-reported-in-common-data-set\">enrollment\u003c/a> for Black or African American students fell from 8.9% to 4.5% and enrollment for Hispanic or Latino students fell from 16.7% to 14.6%. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Universities have a long history of artificially diversifying models in their marketing. In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/call-action-marketing-and-communications-higher-education/marketing-authenticity-higher\">\u003cem>Inside Higher Ed\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported on a series of incidents, including one at York College of Pennsylvania, where the school used Photoshop to replace two white students “with an African American student and (seemingly) Muslim student.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stanford AI researcher Maty Bohacek said he found the situation “highly problematic” and explained how AI image editing introduces new problems to an old story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Humans would most likely go into Photoshop and start working on specific areas of the image,” Bohacek, who focuses on media integrity, said. “But AI models these days, most of them anyway, can’t do that.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bohacek said that most publicly available AI models cannot work directly with individual pixels, the way a human would in photoshop. Instead, they take the entire image, convert it into a mathematical form, make edits, then convert it back into an image. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>During this process, other parts of the photo can also be altered, like the two students to the left of Ramirez, he said, and biases can be introduced. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“These models are heavily post-trained to produce imagery or text that humans tend to prefer or tend to rate as more aesthetically pleasing,” Bohacek said. “That to me is problematic because we changed people’s likeness,” noting that both students were made to look thinner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In an anonymous Substack titled \u003ca href=\"https://theothertwo.substack.com/p/letter-to-the-stanford-community\">“The Other Two,”\u003c/a> the authors introduced themselves as the students pictured alongside Ramirez. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In an anonymous Substack titled \u003ca href=\"https://theothertwo.substack.com/p/letter-to-the-stanford-community\">“The Other Two,”\u003c/a> the authors introduced themselves as the students pictured alongside Ramirez. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They wrote that they filed a report to the university’s Title VI office for discrimination and said they demanded that Stanford take down the banners with the photo.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12062227\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The arched walkways of Stanford’s Main Quad in Stanford Oct. 29, 2025.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The fact that the picture generated one of our peers into a Black woman to showcase “diversity,” despite enrolling the lowest Black student population in the past recent years, has shown that universities have not shown enough institutional support for their Black community and see them as a tool for their marketing,” the authors wrote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“To see Southeast Asian facial features be changed to adhere to the East Asian beauty standards shows that Stanford sees the Asia diaspora as a monolith,” they continued.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In an email to KQED, Stanford spokesperson Charlene Gage said that the university “reviewed the matter and confirmed that AI was used to alter the image in violation of the university policy.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/stanford-university\">Stanford University\u003c/a> senior Billy Ramirez returned to campus this fall to find that the university’s housing and dining department used artificial intelligence to replace him with a Black woman on a public banner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stanford Residential and Dining Enterprises, which oversees the university’s housing operations, dining services and campus conferences, hung the promotional banner in a student housing center, according to \u003ca href=\"https://stanforddaily.com/2026/09/23/university-confirms-ai-edited-photo/\">\u003cem>The Stanford Daily\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The outlet also reported that the original photo, taken in Stern Dining during a 2024 Lunar New Year celebration, was previously used unaltered. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An ornate sandstone-colored building with a series of arches sitting on a brick plaza.\" class=\"wp-image-11956028\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-800x528.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1020x673.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1536x1014.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1920x1267.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The arches of the Main Quadrangle buildings on the campus of Stanford University in Palo Alto on Oct. 2, 2021. (David Madison/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to replacing Ramirez, Stanford R&DE made significant changes to the other two students’ faces. The edits and use of AI caused a stir on the campus social media app, Fizz, according to the Daily, consequently drawing \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/22/us/stanford-photo-swap-black-hispanic-student.html\">national attention\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Seeing my identity changed and being left out of the picture made me feel, in a way, silenced and erased from a representation that was supposed to include me,” Ramirez told the \u003ca href=\"https://stanfordreview.org/stanford-r-de-uses-ai-to-race-swap-students-for-advertising/\">\u003cem>Stanford Review\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, an independent paper founded by venture capitalist and university alum Peter Thiel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ramirez’s class was the last cohort admitted to a U.S. college before the Supreme Court gutted \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action-supreme-court-decision\">affirmative action\u003c/a> in 2023. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-complex-ramifications-of-students-for-fair-admissions-v-harvard/\">Brookings Institute\u003c/a> found that these changes had a sizable impact on the racial profile of college populations across the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Stanford, \u003ca href=\"https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2025/01/final-enrollment-data-for-class-of-2028-reported-in-common-data-set\">enrollment\u003c/a> for Black or African American students fell from 8.9% to 4.5% and enrollment for Hispanic or Latino students fell from 16.7% to 14.6%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the same time, Asian student enrollment increased from 28.8% to 33%, and White student enrollment increased from 21.9% to 24.1%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Universities have a long history of artificially diversifying models in their marketing. In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/call-action-marketing-and-communications-higher-education/marketing-authenticity-higher\">\u003cem>Inside Higher Ed\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported on a series of incidents, including one at York College of Pennsylvania, where the school used Photoshop to replace two white students “with an African American student and (seemingly) Muslim student.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stanford AI researcher Maty Bohacek said he found the situation “highly problematic” and explained how AI image editing introduces new problems to an old story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12067141\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Hoover Tower at Stanford University in Palo Alto on Dec. 10, 2025. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Humans would most likely go into Photoshop and start working on specific areas of the image,” Bohacek, who focuses on media integrity, said. “But AI models these days, most of them anyway, can’t do that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bohacek said that most publicly available AI models cannot work directly with individual pixels, the way a human would in photoshop. Instead, they take the entire image, convert it into a mathematical form, make edits, then convert it back into an image. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During this process, other parts of the photo can also be altered, like the two students to the left of Ramirez, he said, and biases can be introduced. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“These models are heavily post-trained to produce imagery or text that humans tend to prefer or tend to rate as more aesthetically pleasing,” Bohacek said. “That to me is problematic because we changed people’s likeness,” noting that both students were made to look thinner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an anonymous Substack titled \u003ca href=\"https://theothertwo.substack.com/p/letter-to-the-stanford-community\">“The Other Two,”\u003c/a> the authors introduced themselves as the students pictured alongside Ramirez. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They wrote that they filed a report to the university’s Title VI office for discrimination and said they demanded that Stanford take down the banners with the photo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12062227\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The arched walkways of Stanford’s Main Quad in Stanford Oct. 29, 2025. (Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The fact that the picture generated one of our peers into a Black woman to showcase “diversity,” despite enrolling the lowest Black student population in the past recent years, has shown that universities have not shown enough institutional support for their Black community and see them as a tool for their marketing,” the authors wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“To see Southeast Asian facial features be changed to adhere to the East Asian beauty standards shows that Stanford sees the Asia diaspora as a monolith,” they continued.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an email to KQED, Stanford spokesperson Charlene Gage said that the university “reviewed the matter and confirmed that AI was used to alter the image in violation of the university policy.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gage said that Stanford removed the banners with the image in question and “are working to provide additional training for all staff and ensure proper review.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "AI, Artists, and the Future of Creative Work from Life, Automated | Close All Tabs Presents",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While the Close All Tabs team churns out our next few episodes, we bring you this must-listen from \u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em>. Generative AI is able to conjure new images, stories, and songs at lightning speed. So what does this mean for humans artists, storytellers and musicians? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em> Host Jess Love explores what happens when AI enters creative markets. We learn that, at least today, key bottlenecks prevent AI from replicating some aspects of creativity. But there’s no guarantee those bottlenecks will exist tomorrow, raising vital questions about what we value in human labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em> is a series about how to live, work and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. It is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management and it is distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Host and Senior Director: Jess Love\u003cbr>Producer: Steven Jackson \u003cbr>Senior Producer: Jesse Dukes\u003cbr>Music: Steven Jackson\u003cbr>Associate Producer: Stacia Sliger\u003cbr>Recording: George Christensen, Will Feeney\u003cbr>Promotional help from Ananya Mallapragada and Charlotte Simmons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Ben Jones, economist, co-director of the Ryan Institute on Complexity \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Sam Goldberg, assistant professor of marketing, Stanford\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://nayberg.org/work\">Yevgenia Nayberg\u003c/a>, artist, illustrator, children’s book author\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/PrZSCYEM4NtmO7opi0fJJixcsaA?domain=papers.ssrn.com\">Generative AI & Creative Goods: Market Expansion, Crowd-out, and Copyright\u003c/a> — Samuel Goldberg, \u003cem>Stanford Graduate School of Business\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/news/blog/2026/08/12/life-automated/\">‘Life, Automated’ explores how AI is reshaping our world\u003c/a> — Roger Anderson, \u003cem>Northwestern Kellogg\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">Life, Automated Podcast\u003c/a> — \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hey Tabbies, The Close All Tabs team is busy churning out our next few episodes. And they’re bangers, I promise. In the meantime, we had to drop you a peek into this new podcast, Life Automated. It’s distributed by KQED, where this show is made, and it also covers big ideas about how technology is shaping our world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their most recent episode about AI and creative work is a must-listen. Now that Generative AI can crank out images, stories, and even songs, what does that mean for humans like us, who do that for a living?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The economists and artists in this episode of Life, Automated\u003cem> \u003c/em>help us understand the aspects of creativity that can’t\u003cem>e\u003c/em>asily be replicated by AI. At least for now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, while the creative workers at Close All Tabs are talking and typing in real life to bring you more stories about the digital world. Here’s that Life Automated episode: “AI, Artists, and the Future of Creative Work.” \u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore all the ways technology is changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the tractor… The washing machine, The calculator. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For a long time, the promise of machines that automate labor was that they would take over the repetitive, dangerous or tedious work; and leave people free to do the things humans are supposed to be best at. You know, to imagine. Communicate. Invent. Make art or music. But it seems like AI might be coming for creative work as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One sector on notice is the entertainment industry. The Writers guild recently bargained for contract language limiting the use of AI writing in screenplays. The Animation Guild recently projected losses of about 20% of animation and visual effects jobs. And SAG-AFTRA, a big actors and writers union, has been in ongoing negotiations to try to prevent human actors from being replaced by AI: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Fran Drescher]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>I don’t subscribe to putting people out of work. I think what’s happening in the entertainment industry is a microcosm of what happening throughout the United States of America whereby workers are being replaced by artificial intelligence, and what is that about actually\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just Hollywood. Writers, illustrators, journalists, composers, architects — even scientists who design experiments, they’re all on alert, wondering whether and how AI will impact the work they \u003cem>love\u003c/em> to do. It’s a question I’ve been wrestling with myself, as a science writer and self described “creative worker” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So today, we’ll be tackling that question, and instead of hearing from just one guest, we have a few: including an economist who studied what happened when generative AI entered one particular creative market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>All of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> As well as a working artist\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I think we will adapt. I’m not sure how yet. I can’t predict the future, but I know it’s your personal voice that will set you apart always.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But first, if you listened to our kickoff episode — back in July, you’ll remember Economist Ben Jones. Ben is my colleague at the Ryan Institute on Complexity where he studies innovation. And, I’m going to start with a short flashback to that conversation, because something he said is really helpful for thinking about the future of creative work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, Ben has been thinking about automation and its impact on jobs for a long time. He says that instead of obsessing over all the things AI can suddenly do really well, we should spend more time focusing on what it can’t do, at least not yet. Ben calls these things – bottlenecks. I’m Jess Love, this is Life, Automated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, so can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> Well, of course it’s a metaphor from a bottle and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle, depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, or how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck and in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Much of the economy has that flavor where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: In other words, even if some parts of a system get really, really fast and easy, it’s the slowest parts of the system, the parts most difficult to automate, that will determine just how much the system overall changes. As an example from his own job, Ben points to statistical regressions, which computers do incredibly well much better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a-minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> And so we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say ‘no’, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> For scientific researchers, these ‘other things’ might be collecting the right data, or building the instruments to collect the right data, or even waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to emerge that would let us interpret that data. Like the collapse of an economy, or the collision of two stars in a particular spot in the sky. Until scientists can push past these bottlenecks, all the statistical regressions in the world will only teach them so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I find Ben’s framework a useful way to think about AI’s impact on any kind of work, creative or otherwise. Most people’s jobs involve a bunch of different tasks. AI might get really good at some of them, but tasks it still struggles with – the bottlenecks, really determine the overall pace of change, as well as where humans can still contribute. And get paid to do so. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, the big takeaway for creative workers: Find the stuff AI can’t do. But what do these bottlenecks look like in creative markets in particular? And would they actually allow writers, artists, and other creative workers to still do that work? Well, it turns out that there’s somebody who has been studying this very thing. Specifically, how AI has impacted stock image websites. Those sell ready-made photos and illustrations that appear in ads, presentations, websites, and articles. Say you’re making an ad for productivity software. Maybe you purchase a stock image of people shaking hands in a conference room, or a woman smiling at her computer screen, or a well-dressed man gazing thoughtfully into the distance, perhaps wondering. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>Stock images, why do we care about these things, right? It’s not a particularly large market. It’s definitely sort of a niche commoditized good. Why is this somewhere where we wanna study AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Sam Goldberg. He teaches marketing at Stanford, where he also studies how technology changes markets and consumer behavior. And he says the stock-image market offers an unusually crisp view of what happens when AI-generated work begins competing directly with work made by people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So back, you know, a few years ago, they were one of the first markets where we saw really capable AI come to artists, and be able to be used to produce really high-quality images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For years, human artists made stock images and uploaded them to online marketplaces. Then those marketplaces began accepting AI-generated work. Suddenly, images made by people were sitting beside images that could be generated by machines, almost instantly, at enormous scale. And because the platform Sam studied required artists to clearly label which images were AI-generated, he could watch the transition in really fine detail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>And so what that means in practice is that after the platform allows generative AI to enter the market, I can see both how non-generative AI artists respond, as well as how generative AI enters the market and what types of images it produces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So here’s how it used to work. Customers would comb through these websites, going through image after image, until they find one that is “close enough”. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I guess the right way to think about it is each individual might have a very specific taste for something, and so when they were trying to find a stock image, they would make some sort of compromise, right? So they would say, “Oh, I’m looking for an image of a tennis ball, and I want an image of a tennis ball in motion,” right? They could go to the stock image website, they’d look up that keyword, and they’d find, you know, maybe pre-generative AI, a couple hundred different versions of that image, right? Maybe none of them are perfect, but one of them’s good enough, and they took it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>So maybe your article is about playing tennis in the rain, and so you would love to have a tennis ball that’s kind of covered in water. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Penetrating water droplets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. And then that is the kind of thing that just doesn’t exist, so maybe you just get a tennis ball in isolation, and that’s good enough. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so in the pre-generative AI world, you know, you were making some compromises with respect to that, oftentimes at least. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> But along comes generative AI, with free or cheap image generators where you can literally tell it: I want a wet tennis ball, resting on a bench, with water beading on it. And it will give you a pretty good version of that exact image. So what happens when a stock image market starts accepting these hyper-specific AI-generated images?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What actually happens in this market is, generative AI enters, the market expands greatly, so there’s a lot more images on the platform. That should probably be pretty intuitive. But not only do more images enter the market, more customers do as well. More images are being purchased and they like the generative AI images because it turns out they’re actually pretty high quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I can see how this is good for me as a consumer. I finally have the perfect raindrop-covered tennis ball for my editorial feature. And I can see how this is good for the platform itself, at least in the short term. What happens to the artists? And I guess I would ask both the artists using generative AI and those who are not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a good question, and I think you are correct in your intuition here that it does seem like it’s probably pretty good for consumers. It does seem like it’s probably pretty good for the platform, at least in the short run. The artist side I think is a little bit more complicated right? Let me walk you through what happens after generative AI enters the platform, and then we can talk about the implications for artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. So what happens is production goes way up. All right? By over 100% more production, so enormous increases in production here. Second, more artists participate in the market. So we see a lot of new artists enter the stock image market. Of course, that overflow of new artists hides a different fact, which is non-generative AI artists exit. Okay? So they stop producing. So we see a reduction in non-generative AI production, as well as a reduction in the number of non-generative AI artists who are participating on the platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we call that in the paper is sort of a little bit of a crowding out effect. So what’s happening is all of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up demand, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, pretty bad news for a lot of artists who choose to keep making images the old way. But, Sam also found a bottleneck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong> What the stock image market sells is not quite images. What the stock image market sells is indemnification, which is to say if the buyer of the image uses it and gets in trouble, so someone says, “Hey, you can’t use that image. That’s copyrighted,” and tries to sue the buyer, the platform says, “You can’t sue the buyer. We’re responsible.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay, and so that’s really important here because if you were to produce that image yourself using a generative model, you could be subject to some sorts of liability for using, for example, copyrighted work in the training of those models.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Got that? AI-generated images are a bit of a legal gray area right now. For one, most of the biggest AI models were trained on data that included copyrighted works. And it’s also unclear which new AI-generated works can get copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anyway, given this uncertainty, you might choose to purchase an AI-generated image from this market rather than just whip up one yourself because you want the legal protection that this affords you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, it turns out that getting this legal protection works a little differently for images that have a human in them. When artists submit images with humans in them, they also need to fill out paperwork showing that they have permission to use those people’s likenesses. This paperwork is \u003cem>not\u003c/em> something the AI can easily produce. And so voila! We have less crowding-out for images containing people than for images of, say, tennis balls. And there it is! Our bottleneck!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, it’s pretty uninspiring: paperwork. Still, in Sam’s study, it was something the machines couldn’t easily replace, and that did allow human creators to survive in that particular corner of the “stock image” market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stepping back, Sam’s findings are stark. AI gave customers a ton more image choices. It helped the market grow. And, it pushed a lot of human artists out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So one read of your study is that AI-generated art is great for everybody but many of the artists. And I just wanna ask, is a world without artists really great for consumers? Is that really what consumers want? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I definitely do not take a strong opinion about if generative AI art is good or bad, right? I think the data suggests that consumers like the generative AI art. They purchase it, and they are willing to purchase it. And so to the extent that they are willing to purchase it, that seems an improvement basically. Now, in the long run, does that mean that we want a world with no human creativity? I don’t think so, and I don’t have, you know, good data to speak to that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, certainly anecdotally, we hear people saying they don’t like AI content. Intuitively, I think you might expect more of that backlash in creative goods markets that are a little bit more emotional or sincere. So for example, you see a lot more of this when people listen to AI-generated music. Or like YouTube even, like creative shorts. Stock images are, are a product being used for a purpose, in a way that, I think is a little different. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So the pressure on human artists that Sam saw in the stock image market… we don’t really know how much they’ll translate to other creative markets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Particularly those where people could be looking for something harder to just generate on demand: a unique interpretation, emotional resonance, a point of view, maybe even a relationship with the person making the work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So to learn more, I spoke with an artist who has spent much of her career making these \u003cem>other\u003c/em> kinds of images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>That’s coming up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, I’m Jess Love. And I’m talking to the artist Yevgenia Nayberg.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Can you talk about the different lanes of art that you make?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I started as a fine artist, so to speak. I’m a painter and so I paint large scale pieces. But also I crossed over pretty early into theater design, set and costume design, and illustration. And about 10 years ago, I also started writing my own books, picture books mostly. And so right now I’m focusing on being an author and picture book illustrator, and a graphic novel illustrator and writer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I really should have asked that question differently. I should have said, “What kinds of art do you \u003cem>not\u003c/em> make?” And then maybe we would’ve gotten through that answer more quickly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia is also someone I’ve worked with. Years ago, when I was working as a magazine editor, I hired her to illustrate some articles. Her work is way more distinctive and conceptually ambitious than anything you’d find on a stock-image website. But it is still commercial art: made for a client, on a deadline, to serve a particular purpose. So I wanted to know whether she saw her own corner of the creative economy as vulnerable to the same forces Sam observed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What do you think about generative AI making art?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not afraid of AI. I know there is a lot of worry amongst artists about it, and I just think it’s probably eventually going to be another tool. I don’t necessarily think that right now AI has the capabilities real, non-artificial artists have. So not afraid at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What about the idea that whether or not this work is as good as what a human could do, it might nonetheless be good enough to somehow compete with human art or human work, either because of discoverability, so with a, flood of lower quality AI images out in the world, it becomes harder to actually find the good ones done by humans or because some of the people who might want to hire artists are pretty comfortable, just generating something for themselves for free?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m sure there are going to be people like that. There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. But I don’t know if you remember in the ’90s when all of this, you know, flood of stock art happened, everyone was using this image of a little light bulb above a person’s head when they wanted to describe an idea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have an idea, all you draw that bulb, and I think that’s the kind of thinking that I see from AI at this point. So it does create some metaphors, but those metaphors are very trite. If my students do this kind of work, I stop them and I tell them, “Look how many people have already done this hypothetical light bulb.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think because AI sort of collects all these similar ideas and then generates as a result, it’s a very banal result, and I’m not interested in that, and I don’t think my clients, the kind of clients that I work with, are interested in those very typical, ordinary ideas. So I can do better than that at this point, for now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia sees a real difference between the illustration work she does, for specific clients, and the broad, commercial stock image market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>I think what illustration, conceptual illustration does is that it creates a second track to the story. So instead of illustrating something literally, it adds to the story. It can take the story and it can create this interesting creative tension between the illustration and the story, heightening the story in a certain way. So I think with stocks, you often lack that. It’s very hard to prompt an image bank to generate something like this. Even if you search for an image that will fit the story. Fitting the story is one thing. Elevating the story is a completely different thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]\u003c/strong>: Well yeah, an image that elevates a story does seem a lot better than one that merely “fits” a story. But Yevgenia’s not exactly an unbiased third-party here. So now I was curious what Sam Goldberg would make of this claim—that AI art can spray down the market with lots of images that might \u003cem>fit\u003c/em> a particular need really, really well, leading to plenty of satisfied customers. But those images are nonetheless probably not going to be novel enough to \u003cem>elevate\u003c/em> a story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Is this a bottleneck?” I asked Sam.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> So you are not expecting this question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I actually ran some of your results past an illustrator friend of mine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And what she said was basically, “Look, you can use generative AI to come up with thousands of images of light bulbs, light bulbs in this environment, in this you know, room, in front of this person. But what you can’t do is get AI to go that one step beyond and think through, well, what is another way of getting across creativity or innovation? So it will give you a billion light bulbs, but it’s not necessarily really going to give you variety at the concept level. And I’m curious what you would make of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I’m hesitant to disagree with the artist here, but-\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with an artist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with the artist. Yeah, so I actually don’t think that’s incongruent with what we see happen in these markets. So one analysis we do in the paper… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Sam’s team actually found a way to represent the images mathematically. This let them analyze the novelty of this flood of new AI-generated images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>And so we actually – I sort of agree with her, right? Which is to say, one thing we don’t see is – we don’t see a huge increase in novelty in the market. But essentially, what we see happen is we don’t see a lot of sort of images enter the market that look very different than the images that already exist there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Interesting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What we \u003cem>do\u003c/em> see is that anywhere there’s a gap in the market, so where there’s two images on either side, but there’s not an image in between, generative AI is very good at filling those gaps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So…at least for now, AI can generate lots and lots of variations on a theme. But what Yevgenia’s describing is the ability to think \u003cem>beyond\u003c/em> that theme. And Sam says, “yeah, AI doesn’t seem to be as good at that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s totally reasonable to say that your illustrator friend may be correct that that is something that these models struggle with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong> I’m surprised. I was ready to fight the economist!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh no! I actually don’t think you guys would fight that much, but we won’t put you in a cage match together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This idea of bringing true novelty to an assignment: that new metaphor, that “second track.” This may be an important source of value that human artists bring to a project. So…what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s do something fun. Obviously we have worked together in the past. I have hired you to do beautiful custom illustrations for articles, on Kellogg Insight, where I was the editor-in-chief for many years. And so it’s not even hypothetical to say I would often come to you with a story on innovation, entrepreneurship, you know, how to brainstorm. And so let’s say I bring you this article, it’s about “Better Ways of Brainstorming”, and I’m like, “And also, I think I got a pretty good idea for you. It’s a group of people brainstorming, and above them, they’re, like, collectively building a big light bulb. And it’s like a hot air balloon light bulb, and it’s just, wow, you can just see this is going places. “What do you think?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, Jess, I think actually an air balloon light bulb is already a beautiful idea. If I’m not mistaken, I think I did an illustration like this for you years ago. So, maybe we should try doing something different this time. We don’t wanna repeat ourselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Yes, Yevgenia was right about this. I tracked down \u003ca target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/creating-urgency-around-corporate-innovation\">the illustration\u003c/a> from the Kellogg Insight archives. It appeared alongside a 2015 article on corporate innovation. And it featured someone riding through the sky in a lightbulb-shaped hot-air-balloon. Which is almost certainly why the idea formed instantly in my own mind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>But what it did not have is the group of people underneath it, because this, I think, is something that would spoil this illustration. Because you really shouldn’t try to stuff all your ideas into a single illustration. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can go in a completely direction as well. You mentioned brainstorming, so I think maybe using those words and turning them into something visual could work, like creating an actual brainstorm where, you know, that your brain is being blown away by the wind. And, that can actually push a story into kind of a funny territory instead of keeping it very serious, because normally when we say a brainstorm, we associate it with really serious, earnest scientists developing something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But maybe I want to make a little joke and say, you know, “Hey, you can also brainstorm. You don’t have to be so serious about that.” So it also can change the mood of your article, the mood of your story a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And maybe we don’t, maybe you want to be super serious, and then you would reject this idea. But maybe you would say, “Hey, I really like it because we’ve done so many super serious articles. Let’s lighten up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Love it. That’s great. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Okay! So Yevgenia doesn’t just take an assignment and execute it. She thinks it through: The light bulb is cliche, but the hot air balloon idea is interesting. The hot air balloon is interesting, but the people underneath are weighing the idea down. Oh yeah, and because we have a history together, Yevgenia can tell me that we’ve done something really similar 11 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then she offers something completely different, playing off the idea of a storm. But really what she’s doing is asking a question about intent. What mood should the illustration create? Serious? Funny? Can the image change the way the reader experiences the story?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yevgenia is much more than a picture-making machine. She has a very finely honed, very unique way of seeing and depicting the world. As much as any technical skills, \u003cem>that’s\u003c/em> what I hired her to bring to the table. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, to me, at least – sounds like another bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, for established artists like Yegvenia, this should be somewhat reassuring. But there’s still a problem. Nobody begins a career with fully formed artistic taste. That can take years to develop. And often, people develop it while doing smaller, more routine work. Like, maybe, selling their art on a stock image website. And if AI-generated art takes off, even in the most routine, commercial, transactional spaces, it could eventually shape the art we encounter elsewhere too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There is a dangerous territory when real humans, real artists will start to imitate AI if there is enough demand for AI art. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia teaches young artists, and she’s been seeing this play out with her students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>A lot of them are concerned with style and they all talk about style, and I couldn’t really understand what they meant because I thought– I kind of thought of style as voice, not so much as like a stylistic direction. Turns out they’re trying to pick a style and match it from what they see, let’s say, on Instagram. So there is a lot of sameness there already, and this is something that they’re trying to imitate in hopes of finding jobs maybe. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> She thinks AI could be like Instagram on steroids, sending the same images into every artist’s collective consciousness. Yevgenia says she is \u003cem>all for \u003c/em>her students getting hired to make art. But this trend of homogenization and imitation – is troubling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> My primary job is to educate an artist, I want them to work obviously, and I would like to help them as much as possible. But again, I’d like to focus on developing their creativity and their uniqueness more than anything else. I always tell my students, you know, “make something worth stealing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For an individual artist, having a unique voice ‘worth stealing’ can be the difference between mediocrity and greatness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And economist Ben Jones\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>says that everyone benefits from having more, unique, creative perspectives in the mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What we actually want is people reaching for very different types of things based on their different experiences, right? And so what’s interesting, one of the reasons that we think that, you know, a kind of a society with wide-ranging pockets of expertise, interests, cultural backgrounds, et cetera, can be extremely creative, is because people are coming at questions with different sort of perspectives and ideas. They’re even coming at different questions, ’cause the kind of questions that occur to one person might not occur to another, and that’s true in science and invention, it’s true in entrepreneurship. We don’t want everyone trying the same business model. We want people trying wildly different business models, and we’ll see which one the market takes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>There’s real value in difference. In start-ups, in science, and in art. And if everyone begins from the same machine-generated suggestions, we could end up with more of everything—but very little that’s new, special, or unique.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, this is the paradox: AI can generate a staggering number of possibilities, filling countless gaps in the marketplace. And yet, so much of what it produces feels… the same. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While AI-generated images and videos and books are running rampant in some artistic markets–plenty of people are just fine with elevator music, thank you very much–real novelty, real creativity, seems to be the purview of humans. Leaving human creative workers with an important role to play. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whew. That’s a relief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So… is that the end? Should we play the ending music, roll the credits? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, not so fast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is where we stand on Labor Day 2026 sure, but if we know anything about AI tools, it’s that they can change fast. So what happens next? Where’s this all headed? Well, based on my conversations with scholars and artists, I can see three possible futures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the first timeline, things continue along the lines they are now. The machines do get better at generating art. Maybe AI-generated images get even more photorealistic, or maybe AI-generated writing sheds its telltale ticks – you know, those cringy buzzwords that scream, “I’m AI-generated!” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the improvements are really around the margins. And so genuine creativity remains a bottleneck protecting human creatives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a second timeline, and in this timeline, AI learns to be \u003cem>very\u003c/em> creative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ben sees this possible future as pretty likely. Because new ideas rarely emerge out of the blue. They are often composed of existing ingredients, just combined in new ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>In many, many fields, people have separately discovered that creativity often looks like a new combination of things that already existed. So, for example, Thomas Edison did not call the light bulb, at first, the light bulb. He called it the electric candle because he was taking the candle, which was an old technology, and electricity, which was a new technology, and combining them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you look at many, many ideas, it’s very natural to decompose them into distinct components—to unleash a big insight in science, or to produce a new product or process that we can all use. So that idea is very common, you see it in the arts and music and invention and science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> By this definition, AI should actually have a creative advantage. A single person can only encounter and understand so many possible ingredients in a lifetime. \u003cem>We\u003c/em> have to specialize. AI has a much more vast palette to draw from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What’s been interesting about AI, of course, is that AI reads everything. So anyone who’s been interacting with AI sort of sees like, “Wow, I can talk to this AI about just about anything, and right around the edges of my understanding about things I kind of understand, about things I know nothing about, and it seems to know a lot about a lot of stuff.” So in some sense, at that core level of being able to access ingredients that you can combine with seemingly some sophisticated understanding of those ingredients, AI is pretty impressive. And so in that sense, I think it has in some sense, beyond human creative potential. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Given the vast range of ingredients AI can draw from, you might expect it to already produce endlessly surprising combinations. And Ben says theoretically, it one day could. If it were trained completely differently from how most chatbots are trained today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>When you talk like a general purpose, chatbot or whatever, say ChatGPT, it’s sort of trained to produce the right answer, predicting the next token in some probabilistic way that it thinks is most likely to be right. And by predicting the thing that’s sort of most likely to be right all the time, that sounds like you’re homogenizing. It’s not going for the strange answer, right? It’s trying typically to please you by giving you what you want, and what most people want is not some wildly creative answer. They want the right answer. But that’s of course very much about how they were trained. I mean, those chatbots are optimized to do exactly that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there could be other algorithms that we could use to train AI. It’s like, let’s say we’re training an AI, and we’re having people rate whether it was really interesting scientifically. Not whether it was right, but whether it was novel. Or novel and right. So I think that there is a world in which AI, and it may come quickly, or not, where AI can be quite creative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this world, this second possible future, where the AI companies spend millions, billions, to train up AI that’s really, really creative. In this future, the creativity bottleneck protecting human artists disappears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some kinds of creative work, live performances, personal memoir, handmade furniture, are probably still safe. But this timeline does leave many other artists really vulnerable, particularly those who distribute their work on digital marketplaces.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But even here, there is a bottleneck that could come into play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Not a technical bottleneck—something the machine is incapable of doing—or even a legal one, like copyright protection or human likeness permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A normative bottleneck: a limit people try to impose collectively, by deciding what kinds of creative work they are willing to accept and reward, often for ethical or even almost spiritual reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re already seeing this now. Many of my artist friends have adopted a kind of “hold the line” mentality against generative AI, in part because they sense that using AI is a betrayal to the artistic community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> Well, there is an ethical component, because AI is being trained on real artists. It’s basically being trained on us. And, of course, none of us enjoys that. None of us gave permission to have our art used by AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: To the extent that science writing can be considered art – I feel this. It’s pretty likely that a decade of my own science writing was scraped from the web and used to train AI models. Nobody asked me for permission, and I certainly didn’t give it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I would rather have this be at the discretion of every artist—if they want their work to be released into the AI world. I would not want AI to be trained on my work, honestly. Because all of us have our own little tricks and secrets, and I would like to keep them to myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Some artists believe that the best way to fight back against a technology they didn’t ask for is to reject it altogether, in all forms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other creatives draw the line differently. Maybe AI can be used for research, but not execution. Or maybe it can be used for execution, but only in a specific way, as part of a rigorous, intentional process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wherever this line is drawn – and I expect this to be vehemently contested over the next several years, the normative bottleneck is about \u003cem>process\u003c/em>. Not just \u003cem>what\u003c/em> is made, but \u003cem>how\u003c/em> something is made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, the fantasy novelist Brandon Sanderson made this argument explicit in a keynote address called “We Are the Art.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Brandon Sanderson]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> The machines can spit out manuscript after manuscript after manuscript. They can pile them to the pillars of heaven itself, but all we have to do is say no. If we do, they lose. Why do we make art? Well, remember, art is not just the story. It is not just the painting or the sculpture or whatever else you love to create. It’s also the process of creation and what that process did to you. We are the art. Thank you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Whether this kind of resistance, this \u003cem>normative\u003c/em> bottleneck can hold will depend on getting others on board. Getting others to agree that part of the value of human art is that it was created by another human being. Someone who felt something, or saw the world in a certain way, and labored to share it with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a third possible future here, one that doesn’t solely rely on social norms around creativity. In this possible future, whether AI becomes more creative or not, people using AI become capable of doing new things that neither humans nor AI could have done alone. Maybe AI becomes yet another tool for human artists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve seen this before: the camera. Photoshop. The electric synthesizer. All these were controversial in their time, often for devaluing certain hard-won skills, like painting in a painstaking, hyper-realistic style, or learning to play the french horn. But today most artists would probably agree that the new tools created new possibilities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or maybe AI really is different. Maybe it becomes a kind of thought partner. The machine proposes new ingredients we might never have produced on our own. Not unlike a colleague emailing us an article we might find interesting. Here’s Ben again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Maybe when you’re writing, it’s, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement, it’s like another voice on your team. And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product. And it could be that you’re making a screenplay, you’re writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking full control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this scenario, we humans use our own creative judgment to run with whichever combination of ingredients seems like it has the most potential. Here, you could even think of “creative judgment” as its own bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>You need true expertise around the set of ingredients to understand which combinations are likely or not to be useful. You don’t just randomly put ingredients together in the kitchen. It’s not gonna taste very good. There’s some milk here, and there’s some orange juice, and how about this banana? And look, it’s all spice in the spice rack, you know? And then, oh, and is that chicken? You know, that’s not gonna go very well, right? And pretty much everyone sort of knows that. There’s many, many, many, many possible combinations. But we kind of know instinctually not to try many of them because we know they’re probably not gonna be good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Even Yevgenia, who I should stress continues to do all of her art by hand, can see the value in this kind of collaboration–if done right, if used as more of a jumping off point than the ultimate destination. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> You can give AI prompts and say, “Okay, give me all these variations of the light bulb in the field and in the pool.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And once it does it, you can say, “No, this is a really stupid idea. Why don’t you try something else?” And you can see what it tries, and you can maybe find something there? So I can see using AI as this little, average-minded, ordinary partner—and then that can spark something in you, in your imagination. It can generate more ideas from us, in a way, because we are competing intellectually with something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So those are our three scenarios. AI kind of stalls out creatively or AI actually can do everything humans can do, but cheaper and better. And then we have to decide whether we \u003cem>want\u003c/em> to preserve a role for human creativity. Or, AI and humans collaborate to \u003cem>do \u003c/em>entirely new things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Let’s all level-set for a second by noting that lots of people want to be artists, and it’s really, really hard. Already. It’s very hard to make a living as an actor, a musician, an artist, even without computers. Right? And there’s something deeply human about wanting to create and be an artist. And I would say, to be an economist for a second, the demand for their services is lower than the supply of people who would like to do it. So there are many long-suffering artists out there. Does AI make long-suffering artists even more suffering?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Even long-suffering-er.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Long-suffering-er. That’s a word. And I think it could. And it could be because it replaces their output. It’s a cheaper way to produce something people want. On the other hand, maybe AI makes artists more able to do things at lower cost themselves. Maybe it’s a tool, it’s an augmentation, not a replacement. So I think it’s an open question which way it goes. It probably does quite a bit of both. And we’ll have to see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>A bit of both. Maybe this is the most likely possible future of all. Maybe we get all these timelines happening at once, in different parts of the creative economy. AI replacing artists, AI assisting artists, and AI just getting out of the way, to let artists do their very \u003cem>human\u003c/em> thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at the Kellogg School of Management, at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today’s show was produced by Steven Jackson and Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory. Recording help from Will Feeney, George Christensen, Laura Pavin and Big Lake Recording Company. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger, who we’re going to miss very much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was Life, Automated, a new KQED podcast about how life is being shaped by machines. Thanks to their team for sharing this story with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Check back in next week for a new story from Close All Tabs about the fuzzy borders between real and digital life. We’ll see you next week.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hey Tabbies, The Close All Tabs team is busy churning out our next few episodes. And they’re bangers, I promise. In the meantime, we had to drop you a peek into this new podcast, Life Automated. It’s distributed by KQED, where this show is made, and it also covers big ideas about how technology is shaping our world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Hey Tabbies, The Close All Tabs team is busy churning out our next few episodes. And they’re bangers, I promise. In the meantime, we had to drop you a peek into this new podcast, Life Automated. It’s distributed by KQED, where this show is made, and it also covers big ideas about how technology is shaping our world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Their most recent episode about AI and creative work is a must-listen. Now that Generative AI can crank out images, stories, and even songs, what does that mean for humans like us, who do that for a living?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Their most recent episode about AI and creative work is a must-listen. Now that Generative AI can crank out images, stories, and even songs, what does that mean for humans like us, who do that for a living?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The economists and artists in this episode of Life, Automated\u003cem> \u003c/em>help us understand the aspects of creativity that can’t\u003cem>e\u003c/em>asily be replicated by AI. At least for now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The economists and artists in this episode of Life, Automated\u003cem> \u003c/em>help us understand the aspects of creativity that can’t\u003cem>e\u003c/em>asily be replicated by AI. At least for now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, while the creative workers at Close All Tabs are talking and typing in real life to bring you more stories about the digital world. Here’s that Life Automated episode: “AI, Artists, and the Future of Creative Work.” \u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, while the creative workers at Close All Tabs are talking and typing in real life to bring you more stories about the digital world. Here’s that Life Automated episode: “AI, Artists, and the Future of Creative Work.” \u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore all the ways technology is changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore all the ways technology is changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Think about the tractor… The washing machine, The calculator. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Think about the tractor… The washing machine, The calculator. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For a long time, the promise of machines that automate labor was that they would take over the repetitive, dangerous or tedious work; and leave people free to do the things humans are supposed to be best at. You know, to imagine. Communicate. Invent. Make art or music. But it seems like AI might be coming for creative work as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For a long time, the promise of machines that automate labor was that they would take over the repetitive, dangerous or tedious work; and leave people free to do the things humans are supposed to be best at. You know, to imagine. Communicate. Invent. Make art or music. But it seems like AI might be coming for creative work as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One sector on notice is the entertainment industry. The Writers guild recently bargained for contract language limiting the use of AI writing in screenplays. The Animation Guild recently projected losses of about 20% of animation and visual effects jobs. And SAG-AFTRA, a big actors and writers union, has been in ongoing negotiations to try to prevent human actors from being replaced by AI: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One sector on notice is the entertainment industry. The Writers guild recently bargained for contract language limiting the use of AI writing in screenplays. The Animation Guild recently projected losses of about 20% of animation and visual effects jobs. And SAG-AFTRA, a big actors and writers union, has been in ongoing negotiations to try to prevent human actors from being replaced by AI: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Fran Drescher]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Fran Drescher]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>I don’t subscribe to putting people out of work. I think what’s happening in the entertainment industry is a microcosm of what happening throughout the United States of America whereby workers are being replaced by artificial intelligence, and what is that about actually\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>I don’t subscribe to putting people out of work. I think what’s happening in the entertainment industry is a microcosm of what happening throughout the United States of America whereby workers are being replaced by artificial intelligence, and what is that about actually\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just Hollywood. Writers, illustrators, journalists, composers, architects — even scientists who design experiments, they’re all on alert, wondering whether and how AI will impact the work they \u003cem>love\u003c/em> to do. It’s a question I’ve been wrestling with myself, as a science writer and self described “creative worker” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just Hollywood. Writers, illustrators, journalists, composers, architects — even scientists who design experiments, they’re all on alert, wondering whether and how AI will impact the work they \u003cem>love\u003c/em> to do. It’s a question I’ve been wrestling with myself, as a science writer and self described “creative worker” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So today, we’ll be tackling that question, and instead of hearing from just one guest, we have a few: including an economist who studied what happened when generative AI entered one particular creative market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So today, we’ll be tackling that question, and instead of hearing from just one guest, we have a few: including an economist who studied what happened when generative AI entered one particular creative market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>All of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>All of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> As well as a working artist\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> As well as a working artist\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I think we will adapt. I’m not sure how yet. I can’t predict the future, but I know it’s your personal voice that will set you apart always.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I think we will adapt. I’m not sure how yet. I can’t predict the future, but I know it’s your personal voice that will set you apart always.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But first, if you listened to our kickoff episode — back in July, you’ll remember Economist Ben Jones. Ben is my colleague at the Ryan Institute on Complexity where he studies innovation. And, I’m going to start with a short flashback to that conversation, because something he said is really helpful for thinking about the future of creative work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But first, if you listened to our kickoff episode — back in July, you’ll remember Economist Ben Jones. Ben is my colleague at the Ryan Institute on Complexity where he studies innovation. And, I’m going to start with a short flashback to that conversation, because something he said is really helpful for thinking about the future of creative work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>See, Ben has been thinking about automation and its impact on jobs for a long time. He says that instead of obsessing over all the things AI can suddenly do really well, we should spend more time focusing on what it can’t do, at least not yet. Ben calls these things – bottlenecks. I’m Jess Love, this is Life, Automated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>See, Ben has been thinking about automation and its impact on jobs for a long time. He says that instead of obsessing over all the things AI can suddenly do really well, we should spend more time focusing on what it can’t do, at least not yet. Ben calls these things – bottlenecks. I’m Jess Love, this is Life, Automated. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, so can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, so can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> Well, of course it’s a metaphor from a bottle and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle, depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, or how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck and in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> Well, of course it’s a metaphor from a bottle and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle, depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, or how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck and in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Much of the economy has that flavor where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Much of the economy has that flavor where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: In other words, even if some parts of a system get really, really fast and easy, it’s the slowest parts of the system, the parts most difficult to automate, that will determine just how much the system overall changes. As an example from his own job, Ben points to statistical regressions, which computers do incredibly well much better than humans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: In other words, even if some parts of a system get really, really fast and easy, it’s the slowest parts of the system, the parts most difficult to automate, that will determine just how much the system overall changes. As an example from his own job, Ben points to statistical regressions, which computers do incredibly well much better than humans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a-minute.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a-minute.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> And so we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say ‘no’, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> And so we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say ‘no’, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> For scientific researchers, these ‘other things’ might be collecting the right data, or building the instruments to collect the right data, or even waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to emerge that would let us interpret that data. Like the collapse of an economy, or the collision of two stars in a particular spot in the sky. Until scientists can push past these bottlenecks, all the statistical regressions in the world will only teach them so much.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> For scientific researchers, these ‘other things’ might be collecting the right data, or building the instruments to collect the right data, or even waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to emerge that would let us interpret that data. Like the collapse of an economy, or the collision of two stars in a particular spot in the sky. Until scientists can push past these bottlenecks, all the statistical regressions in the world will only teach them so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I find Ben’s framework a useful way to think about AI’s impact on any kind of work, creative or otherwise. Most people’s jobs involve a bunch of different tasks. AI might get really good at some of them, but tasks it still struggles with – the bottlenecks, really determine the overall pace of change, as well as where humans can still contribute. And get paid to do so. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I find Ben’s framework a useful way to think about AI’s impact on any kind of work, creative or otherwise. Most people’s jobs involve a bunch of different tasks. AI might get really good at some of them, but tasks it still struggles with – the bottlenecks, really determine the overall pace of change, as well as where humans can still contribute. And get paid to do so. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, the big takeaway for creative workers: Find the stuff AI can’t do. But what do these bottlenecks look like in creative markets in particular? And would they actually allow writers, artists, and other creative workers to still do that work? Well, it turns out that there’s somebody who has been studying this very thing. Specifically, how AI has impacted stock image websites. Those sell ready-made photos and illustrations that appear in ads, presentations, websites, and articles. Say you’re making an ad for productivity software. Maybe you purchase a stock image of people shaking hands in a conference room, or a woman smiling at her computer screen, or a well-dressed man gazing thoughtfully into the distance, perhaps wondering. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, the big takeaway for creative workers: Find the stuff AI can’t do. But what do these bottlenecks look like in creative markets in particular? And would they actually allow writers, artists, and other creative workers to still do that work? Well, it turns out that there’s somebody who has been studying this very thing. Specifically, how AI has impacted stock image websites. Those sell ready-made photos and illustrations that appear in ads, presentations, websites, and articles. Say you’re making an ad for productivity software. Maybe you purchase a stock image of people shaking hands in a conference room, or a woman smiling at her computer screen, or a well-dressed man gazing thoughtfully into the distance, perhaps wondering. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>Stock images, why do we care about these things, right? It’s not a particularly large market. It’s definitely sort of a niche commoditized good. Why is this somewhere where we wanna study AI? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>Stock images, why do we care about these things, right? It’s not a particularly large market. It’s definitely sort of a niche commoditized good. Why is this somewhere where we wanna study AI? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Sam Goldberg. He teaches marketing at Stanford, where he also studies how technology changes markets and consumer behavior. And he says the stock-image market offers an unusually crisp view of what happens when AI-generated work begins competing directly with work made by people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Sam Goldberg. He teaches marketing at Stanford, where he also studies how technology changes markets and consumer behavior. And he says the stock-image market offers an unusually crisp view of what happens when AI-generated work begins competing directly with work made by people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So back, you know, a few years ago, they were one of the first markets where we saw really capable AI come to artists, and be able to be used to produce really high-quality images.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So back, you know, a few years ago, they were one of the first markets where we saw really capable AI come to artists, and be able to be used to produce really high-quality images.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For years, human artists made stock images and uploaded them to online marketplaces. Then those marketplaces began accepting AI-generated work. Suddenly, images made by people were sitting beside images that could be generated by machines, almost instantly, at enormous scale. And because the platform Sam studied required artists to clearly label which images were AI-generated, he could watch the transition in really fine detail.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For years, human artists made stock images and uploaded them to online marketplaces. Then those marketplaces began accepting AI-generated work. Suddenly, images made by people were sitting beside images that could be generated by machines, almost instantly, at enormous scale. And because the platform Sam studied required artists to clearly label which images were AI-generated, he could watch the transition in really fine detail.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>And so what that means in practice is that after the platform allows generative AI to enter the market, I can see both how non-generative AI artists respond, as well as how generative AI enters the market and what types of images it produces. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>And so what that means in practice is that after the platform allows generative AI to enter the market, I can see both how non-generative AI artists respond, as well as how generative AI enters the market and what types of images it produces. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So here’s how it used to work. Customers would comb through these websites, going through image after image, until they find one that is “close enough”. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So here’s how it used to work. Customers would comb through these websites, going through image after image, until they find one that is “close enough”. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I guess the right way to think about it is each individual might have a very specific taste for something, and so when they were trying to find a stock image, they would make some sort of compromise, right? So they would say, “Oh, I’m looking for an image of a tennis ball, and I want an image of a tennis ball in motion,” right? They could go to the stock image website, they’d look up that keyword, and they’d find, you know, maybe pre-generative AI, a couple hundred different versions of that image, right? Maybe none of them are perfect, but one of them’s good enough, and they took it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I guess the right way to think about it is each individual might have a very specific taste for something, and so when they were trying to find a stock image, they would make some sort of compromise, right? So they would say, “Oh, I’m looking for an image of a tennis ball, and I want an image of a tennis ball in motion,” right? They could go to the stock image website, they’d look up that keyword, and they’d find, you know, maybe pre-generative AI, a couple hundred different versions of that image, right? Maybe none of them are perfect, but one of them’s good enough, and they took it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>So maybe your article is about playing tennis in the rain, and so you would love to have a tennis ball that’s kind of covered in water. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>So maybe your article is about playing tennis in the rain, and so you would love to have a tennis ball that’s kind of covered in water. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Penetrating water droplets.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. And then that is the kind of thing that just doesn’t exist, so maybe you just get a tennis ball in isolation, and that’s good enough. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. And then that is the kind of thing that just doesn’t exist, so maybe you just get a tennis ball in isolation, and that’s good enough. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so in the pre-generative AI world, you know, you were making some compromises with respect to that, oftentimes at least. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so in the pre-generative AI world, you know, you were making some compromises with respect to that, oftentimes at least. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> But along comes generative AI, with free or cheap image generators where you can literally tell it: I want a wet tennis ball, resting on a bench, with water beading on it. And it will give you a pretty good version of that exact image. So what happens when a stock image market starts accepting these hyper-specific AI-generated images?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> But along comes generative AI, with free or cheap image generators where you can literally tell it: I want a wet tennis ball, resting on a bench, with water beading on it. And it will give you a pretty good version of that exact image. So what happens when a stock image market starts accepting these hyper-specific AI-generated images?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What actually happens in this market is, generative AI enters, the market expands greatly, so there’s a lot more images on the platform. That should probably be pretty intuitive. But not only do more images enter the market, more customers do as well. More images are being purchased and they like the generative AI images because it turns out they’re actually pretty high quality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What actually happens in this market is, generative AI enters, the market expands greatly, so there’s a lot more images on the platform. That should probably be pretty intuitive. But not only do more images enter the market, more customers do as well. More images are being purchased and they like the generative AI images because it turns out they’re actually pretty high quality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I can see how this is good for me as a consumer. I finally have the perfect raindrop-covered tennis ball for my editorial feature. And I can see how this is good for the platform itself, at least in the short term. What happens to the artists? And I guess I would ask both the artists using generative AI and those who are not. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I can see how this is good for me as a consumer. I finally have the perfect raindrop-covered tennis ball for my editorial feature. And I can see how this is good for the platform itself, at least in the short term. What happens to the artists? And I guess I would ask both the artists using generative AI and those who are not. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a good question, and I think you are correct in your intuition here that it does seem like it’s probably pretty good for consumers. It does seem like it’s probably pretty good for the platform, at least in the short run. The artist side I think is a little bit more complicated right? Let me walk you through what happens after generative AI enters the platform, and then we can talk about the implications for artists.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a good question, and I think you are correct in your intuition here that it does seem like it’s probably pretty good for consumers. It does seem like it’s probably pretty good for the platform, at least in the short run. The artist side I think is a little bit more complicated right? Let me walk you through what happens after generative AI enters the platform, and then we can talk about the implications for artists.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. So what happens is production goes way up. All right? By over 100% more production, so enormous increases in production here. Second, more artists participate in the market. So we see a lot of new artists enter the stock image market. Of course, that overflow of new artists hides a different fact, which is non-generative AI artists exit. Okay? So they stop producing. So we see a reduction in non-generative AI production, as well as a reduction in the number of non-generative AI artists who are participating on the platform.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. So what happens is production goes way up. All right? By over 100% more production, so enormous increases in production here. Second, more artists participate in the market. So we see a lot of new artists enter the stock image market. Of course, that overflow of new artists hides a different fact, which is non-generative AI artists exit. Okay? So they stop producing. So we see a reduction in non-generative AI production, as well as a reduction in the number of non-generative AI artists who are participating on the platform.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we call that in the paper is sort of a little bit of a crowding out effect. So what’s happening is all of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up demand, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we call that in the paper is sort of a little bit of a crowding out effect. So what’s happening is all of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up demand, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, pretty bad news for a lot of artists who choose to keep making images the old way. But, Sam also found a bottleneck. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, pretty bad news for a lot of artists who choose to keep making images the old way. But, Sam also found a bottleneck. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong> What the stock image market sells is not quite images. What the stock image market sells is indemnification, which is to say if the buyer of the image uses it and gets in trouble, so someone says, “Hey, you can’t use that image. That’s copyrighted,” and tries to sue the buyer, the platform says, “You can’t sue the buyer. We’re responsible.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong> What the stock image market sells is not quite images. What the stock image market sells is indemnification, which is to say if the buyer of the image uses it and gets in trouble, so someone says, “Hey, you can’t use that image. That’s copyrighted,” and tries to sue the buyer, the platform says, “You can’t sue the buyer. We’re responsible.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, fascinating. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, fascinating. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay, and so that’s really important here because if you were to produce that image yourself using a generative model, you could be subject to some sorts of liability for using, for example, copyrighted work in the training of those models.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay, and so that’s really important here because if you were to produce that image yourself using a generative model, you could be subject to some sorts of liability for using, for example, copyrighted work in the training of those models.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Got that? AI-generated images are a bit of a legal gray area right now. For one, most of the biggest AI models were trained on data that included copyrighted works. And it’s also unclear which new AI-generated works can get copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Got that? AI-generated images are a bit of a legal gray area right now. For one, most of the biggest AI models were trained on data that included copyrighted works. And it’s also unclear which new AI-generated works can get copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anyway, given this uncertainty, you might choose to purchase an AI-generated image from this market rather than just whip up one yourself because you want the legal protection that this affords you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anyway, given this uncertainty, you might choose to purchase an AI-generated image from this market rather than just whip up one yourself because you want the legal protection that this affords you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, it turns out that getting this legal protection works a little differently for images that have a human in them. When artists submit images with humans in them, they also need to fill out paperwork showing that they have permission to use those people’s likenesses. This paperwork is \u003cem>not\u003c/em> something the AI can easily produce. And so voila! We have less crowding-out for images containing people than for images of, say, tennis balls. And there it is! Our bottleneck!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, it turns out that getting this legal protection works a little differently for images that have a human in them. When artists submit images with humans in them, they also need to fill out paperwork showing that they have permission to use those people’s likenesses. This paperwork is \u003cem>not\u003c/em> something the AI can easily produce. And so voila! We have less crowding-out for images containing people than for images of, say, tennis balls. And there it is! Our bottleneck!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, it’s pretty uninspiring: paperwork. Still, in Sam’s study, it was something the machines couldn’t easily replace, and that did allow human creators to survive in that particular corner of the “stock image” market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, it’s pretty uninspiring: paperwork. Still, in Sam’s study, it was something the machines couldn’t easily replace, and that did allow human creators to survive in that particular corner of the “stock image” market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stepping back, Sam’s findings are stark. AI gave customers a ton more image choices. It helped the market grow. And, it pushed a lot of human artists out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Stepping back, Sam’s findings are stark. AI gave customers a ton more image choices. It helped the market grow. And, it pushed a lot of human artists out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So one read of your study is that AI-generated art is great for everybody but many of the artists. And I just wanna ask, is a world without artists really great for consumers? Is that really what consumers want? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So one read of your study is that AI-generated art is great for everybody but many of the artists. And I just wanna ask, is a world without artists really great for consumers? Is that really what consumers want? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I definitely do not take a strong opinion about if generative AI art is good or bad, right? I think the data suggests that consumers like the generative AI art. They purchase it, and they are willing to purchase it. And so to the extent that they are willing to purchase it, that seems an improvement basically. Now, in the long run, does that mean that we want a world with no human creativity? I don’t think so, and I don’t have, you know, good data to speak to that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I definitely do not take a strong opinion about if generative AI art is good or bad, right? I think the data suggests that consumers like the generative AI art. They purchase it, and they are willing to purchase it. And so to the extent that they are willing to purchase it, that seems an improvement basically. Now, in the long run, does that mean that we want a world with no human creativity? I don’t think so, and I don’t have, you know, good data to speak to that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, certainly anecdotally, we hear people saying they don’t like AI content. Intuitively, I think you might expect more of that backlash in creative goods markets that are a little bit more emotional or sincere. So for example, you see a lot more of this when people listen to AI-generated music. Or like YouTube even, like creative shorts. Stock images are, are a product being used for a purpose, in a way that, I think is a little different. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, certainly anecdotally, we hear people saying they don’t like AI content. Intuitively, I think you might expect more of that backlash in creative goods markets that are a little bit more emotional or sincere. So for example, you see a lot more of this when people listen to AI-generated music. Or like YouTube even, like creative shorts. Stock images are, are a product being used for a purpose, in a way that, I think is a little different. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So the pressure on human artists that Sam saw in the stock image market… we don’t really know how much they’ll translate to other creative markets.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So the pressure on human artists that Sam saw in the stock image market… we don’t really know how much they’ll translate to other creative markets.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Particularly those where people could be looking for something harder to just generate on demand: a unique interpretation, emotional resonance, a point of view, maybe even a relationship with the person making the work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Particularly those where people could be looking for something harder to just generate on demand: a unique interpretation, emotional resonance, a point of view, maybe even a relationship with the person making the work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So to learn more, I spoke with an artist who has spent much of her career making these \u003cem>other\u003c/em> kinds of images.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So to learn more, I spoke with an artist who has spent much of her career making these \u003cem>other\u003c/em> kinds of images.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>That’s coming up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>That’s coming up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, I’m Jess Love. And I’m talking to the artist Yevgenia Nayberg.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, I’m Jess Love. And I’m talking to the artist Yevgenia Nayberg.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Can you talk about the different lanes of art that you make?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Can you talk about the different lanes of art that you make?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I started as a fine artist, so to speak. I’m a painter and so I paint large scale pieces. But also I crossed over pretty early into theater design, set and costume design, and illustration. And about 10 years ago, I also started writing my own books, picture books mostly. And so right now I’m focusing on being an author and picture book illustrator, and a graphic novel illustrator and writer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I started as a fine artist, so to speak. I’m a painter and so I paint large scale pieces. But also I crossed over pretty early into theater design, set and costume design, and illustration. And about 10 years ago, I also started writing my own books, picture books mostly. And so right now I’m focusing on being an author and picture book illustrator, and a graphic novel illustrator and writer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I really should have asked that question differently. I should have said, “What kinds of art do you \u003cem>not\u003c/em> make?” And then maybe we would’ve gotten through that answer more quickly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I really should have asked that question differently. I should have said, “What kinds of art do you \u003cem>not\u003c/em> make?” And then maybe we would’ve gotten through that answer more quickly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia is also someone I’ve worked with. Years ago, when I was working as a magazine editor, I hired her to illustrate some articles. Her work is way more distinctive and conceptually ambitious than anything you’d find on a stock-image website. But it is still commercial art: made for a client, on a deadline, to serve a particular purpose. So I wanted to know whether she saw her own corner of the creative economy as vulnerable to the same forces Sam observed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia is also someone I’ve worked with. Years ago, when I was working as a magazine editor, I hired her to illustrate some articles. Her work is way more distinctive and conceptually ambitious than anything you’d find on a stock-image website. But it is still commercial art: made for a client, on a deadline, to serve a particular purpose. So I wanted to know whether she saw her own corner of the creative economy as vulnerable to the same forces Sam observed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What do you think about generative AI making art?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What do you think about generative AI making art?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not afraid of AI. I know there is a lot of worry amongst artists about it, and I just think it’s probably eventually going to be another tool. I don’t necessarily think that right now AI has the capabilities real, non-artificial artists have. So not afraid at this point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not afraid of AI. I know there is a lot of worry amongst artists about it, and I just think it’s probably eventually going to be another tool. I don’t necessarily think that right now AI has the capabilities real, non-artificial artists have. So not afraid at this point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What about the idea that whether or not this work is as good as what a human could do, it might nonetheless be good enough to somehow compete with human art or human work, either because of discoverability, so with a, flood of lower quality AI images out in the world, it becomes harder to actually find the good ones done by humans or because some of the people who might want to hire artists are pretty comfortable, just generating something for themselves for free?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What about the idea that whether or not this work is as good as what a human could do, it might nonetheless be good enough to somehow compete with human art or human work, either because of discoverability, so with a, flood of lower quality AI images out in the world, it becomes harder to actually find the good ones done by humans or because some of the people who might want to hire artists are pretty comfortable, just generating something for themselves for free?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m sure there are going to be people like that. There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. But I don’t know if you remember in the ’90s when all of this, you know, flood of stock art happened, everyone was using this image of a little light bulb above a person’s head when they wanted to describe an idea.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m sure there are going to be people like that. There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. But I don’t know if you remember in the ’90s when all of this, you know, flood of stock art happened, everyone was using this image of a little light bulb above a person’s head when they wanted to describe an idea.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you have an idea, all you draw that bulb, and I think that’s the kind of thinking that I see from AI at this point. So it does create some metaphors, but those metaphors are very trite. If my students do this kind of work, I stop them and I tell them, “Look how many people have already done this hypothetical light bulb.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you have an idea, all you draw that bulb, and I think that’s the kind of thinking that I see from AI at this point. So it does create some metaphors, but those metaphors are very trite. If my students do this kind of work, I stop them and I tell them, “Look how many people have already done this hypothetical light bulb.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think because AI sort of collects all these similar ideas and then generates as a result, it’s a very banal result, and I’m not interested in that, and I don’t think my clients, the kind of clients that I work with, are interested in those very typical, ordinary ideas. So I can do better than that at this point, for now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think because AI sort of collects all these similar ideas and then generates as a result, it’s a very banal result, and I’m not interested in that, and I don’t think my clients, the kind of clients that I work with, are interested in those very typical, ordinary ideas. So I can do better than that at this point, for now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia sees a real difference between the illustration work she does, for specific clients, and the broad, commercial stock image market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia sees a real difference between the illustration work she does, for specific clients, and the broad, commercial stock image market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>I think what illustration, conceptual illustration does is that it creates a second track to the story. So instead of illustrating something literally, it adds to the story. It can take the story and it can create this interesting creative tension between the illustration and the story, heightening the story in a certain way. So I think with stocks, you often lack that. It’s very hard to prompt an image bank to generate something like this. Even if you search for an image that will fit the story. Fitting the story is one thing. Elevating the story is a completely different thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>I think what illustration, conceptual illustration does is that it creates a second track to the story. So instead of illustrating something literally, it adds to the story. It can take the story and it can create this interesting creative tension between the illustration and the story, heightening the story in a certain way. So I think with stocks, you often lack that. It’s very hard to prompt an image bank to generate something like this. Even if you search for an image that will fit the story. Fitting the story is one thing. Elevating the story is a completely different thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]\u003c/strong>: Well yeah, an image that elevates a story does seem a lot better than one that merely “fits” a story. But Yevgenia’s not exactly an unbiased third-party here. So now I was curious what Sam Goldberg would make of this claim—that AI art can spray down the market with lots of images that might \u003cem>fit\u003c/em> a particular need really, really well, leading to plenty of satisfied customers. But those images are nonetheless probably not going to be novel enough to \u003cem>elevate\u003c/em> a story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]\u003c/strong>: Well yeah, an image that elevates a story does seem a lot better than one that merely “fits” a story. But Yevgenia’s not exactly an unbiased third-party here. So now I was curious what Sam Goldberg would make of this claim—that AI art can spray down the market with lots of images that might \u003cem>fit\u003c/em> a particular need really, really well, leading to plenty of satisfied customers. But those images are nonetheless probably not going to be novel enough to \u003cem>elevate\u003c/em> a story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Is this a bottleneck?” I asked Sam.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Is this a bottleneck?” I asked Sam.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> So you are not expecting this question. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I actually ran some of your results past an illustrator friend of mine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I actually ran some of your results past an illustrator friend of mine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And what she said was basically, “Look, you can use generative AI to come up with thousands of images of light bulbs, light bulbs in this environment, in this you know, room, in front of this person. But what you can’t do is get AI to go that one step beyond and think through, well, what is another way of getting across creativity or innovation? So it will give you a billion light bulbs, but it’s not necessarily really going to give you variety at the concept level. And I’m curious what you would make of that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And what she said was basically, “Look, you can use generative AI to come up with thousands of images of light bulbs, light bulbs in this environment, in this you know, room, in front of this person. But what you can’t do is get AI to go that one step beyond and think through, well, what is another way of getting across creativity or innovation? So it will give you a billion light bulbs, but it’s not necessarily really going to give you variety at the concept level. And I’m curious what you would make of that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I’m hesitant to disagree with the artist here, but-\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I’m hesitant to disagree with the artist here, but-\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with an artist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with the artist. Yeah, so I actually don’t think that’s incongruent with what we see happen in these markets. So one analysis we do in the paper… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with the artist. Yeah, so I actually don’t think that’s incongruent with what we see happen in these markets. So one analysis we do in the paper… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Sam’s team actually found a way to represent the images mathematically. This let them analyze the novelty of this flood of new AI-generated images.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Sam’s team actually found a way to represent the images mathematically. This let them analyze the novelty of this flood of new AI-generated images.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>And so we actually – I sort of agree with her, right? Which is to say, one thing we don’t see is – we don’t see a huge increase in novelty in the market. But essentially, what we see happen is we don’t see a lot of sort of images enter the market that look very different than the images that already exist there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>And so we actually – I sort of agree with her, right? Which is to say, one thing we don’t see is – we don’t see a huge increase in novelty in the market. But essentially, what we see happen is we don’t see a lot of sort of images enter the market that look very different than the images that already exist there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Interesting. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What we \u003cem>do\u003c/em> see is that anywhere there’s a gap in the market, so where there’s two images on either side, but there’s not an image in between, generative AI is very good at filling those gaps.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What we \u003cem>do\u003c/em> see is that anywhere there’s a gap in the market, so where there’s two images on either side, but there’s not an image in between, generative AI is very good at filling those gaps.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So…at least for now, AI can generate lots and lots of variations on a theme. But what Yevgenia’s describing is the ability to think \u003cem>beyond\u003c/em> that theme. And Sam says, “yeah, AI doesn’t seem to be as good at that.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So…at least for now, AI can generate lots and lots of variations on a theme. But what Yevgenia’s describing is the ability to think \u003cem>beyond\u003c/em> that theme. And Sam says, “yeah, AI doesn’t seem to be as good at that.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s totally reasonable to say that your illustrator friend may be correct that that is something that these models struggle with.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s totally reasonable to say that your illustrator friend may be correct that that is something that these models struggle with.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong> I’m surprised. I was ready to fight the economist!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong> I’m surprised. I was ready to fight the economist!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh no! I actually don’t think you guys would fight that much, but we won’t put you in a cage match together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh no! I actually don’t think you guys would fight that much, but we won’t put you in a cage match together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This idea of bringing true novelty to an assignment: that new metaphor, that “second track.” This may be an important source of value that human artists bring to a project. So…what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This idea of bringing true novelty to an assignment: that new metaphor, that “second track.” This may be an important source of value that human artists bring to a project. So…what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s do something fun. Obviously we have worked together in the past. I have hired you to do beautiful custom illustrations for articles, on Kellogg Insight, where I was the editor-in-chief for many years. And so it’s not even hypothetical to say I would often come to you with a story on innovation, entrepreneurship, you know, how to brainstorm. And so let’s say I bring you this article, it’s about “Better Ways of Brainstorming”, and I’m like, “And also, I think I got a pretty good idea for you. It’s a group of people brainstorming, and above them, they’re, like, collectively building a big light bulb. And it’s like a hot air balloon light bulb, and it’s just, wow, you can just see this is going places. “What do you think?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s do something fun. Obviously we have worked together in the past. I have hired you to do beautiful custom illustrations for articles, on Kellogg Insight, where I was the editor-in-chief for many years. And so it’s not even hypothetical to say I would often come to you with a story on innovation, entrepreneurship, you know, how to brainstorm. And so let’s say I bring you this article, it’s about “Better Ways of Brainstorming”, and I’m like, “And also, I think I got a pretty good idea for you. It’s a group of people brainstorming, and above them, they’re, like, collectively building a big light bulb. And it’s like a hot air balloon light bulb, and it’s just, wow, you can just see this is going places. “What do you think?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, Jess, I think actually an air balloon light bulb is already a beautiful idea. If I’m not mistaken, I think I did an illustration like this for you years ago. So, maybe we should try doing something different this time. We don’t wanna repeat ourselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, Jess, I think actually an air balloon light bulb is already a beautiful idea. If I’m not mistaken, I think I did an illustration like this for you years ago. So, maybe we should try doing something different this time. We don’t wanna repeat ourselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Yes, Yevgenia was right about this. I tracked down \u003ca target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/creating-urgency-around-corporate-innovation\">the illustration\u003c/a> from the Kellogg Insight archives. It appeared alongside a 2015 article on corporate innovation. And it featured someone riding through the sky in a lightbulb-shaped hot-air-balloon. Which is almost certainly why the idea formed instantly in my own mind.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Yes, Yevgenia was right about this. I tracked down \u003ca target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/creating-urgency-around-corporate-innovation\">the illustration\u003c/a> from the Kellogg Insight archives. It appeared alongside a 2015 article on corporate innovation. And it featured someone riding through the sky in a lightbulb-shaped hot-air-balloon. Which is almost certainly why the idea formed instantly in my own mind.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>But what it did not have is the group of people underneath it, because this, I think, is something that would spoil this illustration. Because you really shouldn’t try to stuff all your ideas into a single illustration. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>But what it did not have is the group of people underneath it, because this, I think, is something that would spoil this illustration. Because you really shouldn’t try to stuff all your ideas into a single illustration. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we can go in a completely direction as well. You mentioned brainstorming, so I think maybe using those words and turning them into something visual could work, like creating an actual brainstorm where, you know, that your brain is being blown away by the wind. And, that can actually push a story into kind of a funny territory instead of keeping it very serious, because normally when we say a brainstorm, we associate it with really serious, earnest scientists developing something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But we can go in a completely direction as well. You mentioned brainstorming, so I think maybe using those words and turning them into something visual could work, like creating an actual brainstorm where, you know, that your brain is being blown away by the wind. And, that can actually push a story into kind of a funny territory instead of keeping it very serious, because normally when we say a brainstorm, we associate it with really serious, earnest scientists developing something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But maybe I want to make a little joke and say, you know, “Hey, you can also brainstorm. You don’t have to be so serious about that.” So it also can change the mood of your article, the mood of your story a little bit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But maybe I want to make a little joke and say, you know, “Hey, you can also brainstorm. You don’t have to be so serious about that.” So it also can change the mood of your article, the mood of your story a little bit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And maybe we don’t, maybe you want to be super serious, and then you would reject this idea. But maybe you would say, “Hey, I really like it because we’ve done so many super serious articles. Let’s lighten up.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And maybe we don’t, maybe you want to be super serious, and then you would reject this idea. But maybe you would say, “Hey, I really like it because we’ve done so many super serious articles. Let’s lighten up.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Love it. That’s great. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Love it. That’s great. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Okay! So Yevgenia doesn’t just take an assignment and execute it. She thinks it through: The light bulb is cliche, but the hot air balloon idea is interesting. The hot air balloon is interesting, but the people underneath are weighing the idea down. Oh yeah, and because we have a history together, Yevgenia can tell me that we’ve done something really similar 11 years ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Okay! So Yevgenia doesn’t just take an assignment and execute it. She thinks it through: The light bulb is cliche, but the hot air balloon idea is interesting. The hot air balloon is interesting, but the people underneath are weighing the idea down. Oh yeah, and because we have a history together, Yevgenia can tell me that we’ve done something really similar 11 years ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then she offers something completely different, playing off the idea of a storm. But really what she’s doing is asking a question about intent. What mood should the illustration create? Serious? Funny? Can the image change the way the reader experiences the story?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then she offers something completely different, playing off the idea of a storm. But really what she’s doing is asking a question about intent. What mood should the illustration create? Serious? Funny? Can the image change the way the reader experiences the story?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yevgenia is much more than a picture-making machine. She has a very finely honed, very unique way of seeing and depicting the world. As much as any technical skills, \u003cem>that’s\u003c/em> what I hired her to bring to the table. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, to me, at least – sounds like another bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Yevgenia is much more than a picture-making machine. She has a very finely honed, very unique way of seeing and depicting the world. As much as any technical skills, \u003cem>that’s\u003c/em> what I hired her to bring to the table. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, to me, at least – sounds like another bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, for established artists like Yegvenia, this should be somewhat reassuring. But there’s still a problem. Nobody begins a career with fully formed artistic taste. That can take years to develop. And often, people develop it while doing smaller, more routine work. Like, maybe, selling their art on a stock image website. And if AI-generated art takes off, even in the most routine, commercial, transactional spaces, it could eventually shape the art we encounter elsewhere too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, for established artists like Yegvenia, this should be somewhat reassuring. But there’s still a problem. Nobody begins a career with fully formed artistic taste. That can take years to develop. And often, people develop it while doing smaller, more routine work. Like, maybe, selling their art on a stock image website. And if AI-generated art takes off, even in the most routine, commercial, transactional spaces, it could eventually shape the art we encounter elsewhere too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There is a dangerous territory when real humans, real artists will start to imitate AI if there is enough demand for AI art. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia teaches young artists, and she’s been seeing this play out with her students. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>A lot of them are concerned with style and they all talk about style, and I couldn’t really understand what they meant because I thought– I kind of thought of style as voice, not so much as like a stylistic direction. Turns out they’re trying to pick a style and match it from what they see, let’s say, on Instagram. So there is a lot of sameness there already, and this is something that they’re trying to imitate in hopes of finding jobs maybe. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>A lot of them are concerned with style and they all talk about style, and I couldn’t really understand what they meant because I thought– I kind of thought of style as voice, not so much as like a stylistic direction. Turns out they’re trying to pick a style and match it from what they see, let’s say, on Instagram. So there is a lot of sameness there already, and this is something that they’re trying to imitate in hopes of finding jobs maybe. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> She thinks AI could be like Instagram on steroids, sending the same images into every artist’s collective consciousness. Yevgenia says she is \u003cem>all for \u003c/em>her students getting hired to make art. But this trend of homogenization and imitation – is troubling. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> She thinks AI could be like Instagram on steroids, sending the same images into every artist’s collective consciousness. Yevgenia says she is \u003cem>all for \u003c/em>her students getting hired to make art. But this trend of homogenization and imitation – is troubling. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> My primary job is to educate an artist, I want them to work obviously, and I would like to help them as much as possible. But again, I’d like to focus on developing their creativity and their uniqueness more than anything else. I always tell my students, you know, “make something worth stealing.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> My primary job is to educate an artist, I want them to work obviously, and I would like to help them as much as possible. But again, I’d like to focus on developing their creativity and their uniqueness more than anything else. I always tell my students, you know, “make something worth stealing.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For an individual artist, having a unique voice ‘worth stealing’ can be the difference between mediocrity and greatness.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For an individual artist, having a unique voice ‘worth stealing’ can be the difference between mediocrity and greatness.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And economist Ben Jones\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>says that everyone benefits from having more, unique, creative perspectives in the mix. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And economist Ben Jones\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>says that everyone benefits from having more, unique, creative perspectives in the mix. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What we actually want is people reaching for very different types of things based on their different experiences, right? And so what’s interesting, one of the reasons that we think that, you know, a kind of a society with wide-ranging pockets of expertise, interests, cultural backgrounds, et cetera, can be extremely creative, is because people are coming at questions with different sort of perspectives and ideas. They’re even coming at different questions, ’cause the kind of questions that occur to one person might not occur to another, and that’s true in science and invention, it’s true in entrepreneurship. We don’t want everyone trying the same business model. We want people trying wildly different business models, and we’ll see which one the market takes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What we actually want is people reaching for very different types of things based on their different experiences, right? And so what’s interesting, one of the reasons that we think that, you know, a kind of a society with wide-ranging pockets of expertise, interests, cultural backgrounds, et cetera, can be extremely creative, is because people are coming at questions with different sort of perspectives and ideas. They’re even coming at different questions, ’cause the kind of questions that occur to one person might not occur to another, and that’s true in science and invention, it’s true in entrepreneurship. We don’t want everyone trying the same business model. We want people trying wildly different business models, and we’ll see which one the market takes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>There’s real value in difference. In start-ups, in science, and in art. And if everyone begins from the same machine-generated suggestions, we could end up with more of everything—but very little that’s new, special, or unique.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>There’s real value in difference. In start-ups, in science, and in art. And if everyone begins from the same machine-generated suggestions, we could end up with more of everything—but very little that’s new, special, or unique.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, this is the paradox: AI can generate a staggering number of possibilities, filling countless gaps in the marketplace. And yet, so much of what it produces feels… the same. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, this is the paradox: AI can generate a staggering number of possibilities, filling countless gaps in the marketplace. And yet, so much of what it produces feels… the same. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While AI-generated images and videos and books are running rampant in some artistic markets–plenty of people are just fine with elevator music, thank you very much–real novelty, real creativity, seems to be the purview of humans. Leaving human creative workers with an important role to play. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While AI-generated images and videos and books are running rampant in some artistic markets–plenty of people are just fine with elevator music, thank you very much–real novelty, real creativity, seems to be the purview of humans. Leaving human creative workers with an important role to play. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whew. That’s a relief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Whew. That’s a relief.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So… is that the end? Should we play the ending music, roll the credits? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So… is that the end? Should we play the ending music, roll the credits? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, not so fast. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is where we stand on Labor Day 2026 sure, but if we know anything about AI tools, it’s that they can change fast. So what happens next? Where’s this all headed? Well, based on my conversations with scholars and artists, I can see three possible futures.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is where we stand on Labor Day 2026 sure, but if we know anything about AI tools, it’s that they can change fast. So what happens next? Where’s this all headed? Well, based on my conversations with scholars and artists, I can see three possible futures.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the first timeline, things continue along the lines they are now. The machines do get better at generating art. Maybe AI-generated images get even more photorealistic, or maybe AI-generated writing sheds its telltale ticks – you know, those cringy buzzwords that scream, “I’m AI-generated!” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the first timeline, things continue along the lines they are now. The machines do get better at generating art. Maybe AI-generated images get even more photorealistic, or maybe AI-generated writing sheds its telltale ticks – you know, those cringy buzzwords that scream, “I’m AI-generated!” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the improvements are really around the margins. And so genuine creativity remains a bottleneck protecting human creatives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the improvements are really around the margins. And so genuine creativity remains a bottleneck protecting human creatives.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there’s a second timeline, and in this timeline, AI learns to be \u003cem>very\u003c/em> creative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ben sees this possible future as pretty likely. Because new ideas rarely emerge out of the blue. They are often composed of existing ingredients, just combined in new ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ben sees this possible future as pretty likely. Because new ideas rarely emerge out of the blue. They are often composed of existing ingredients, just combined in new ways. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>In many, many fields, people have separately discovered that creativity often looks like a new combination of things that already existed. So, for example, Thomas Edison did not call the light bulb, at first, the light bulb. He called it the electric candle because he was taking the candle, which was an old technology, and electricity, which was a new technology, and combining them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>In many, many fields, people have separately discovered that creativity often looks like a new combination of things that already existed. So, for example, Thomas Edison did not call the light bulb, at first, the light bulb. He called it the electric candle because he was taking the candle, which was an old technology, and electricity, which was a new technology, and combining them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you look at many, many ideas, it’s very natural to decompose them into distinct components—to unleash a big insight in science, or to produce a new product or process that we can all use. So that idea is very common, you see it in the arts and music and invention and science.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if you look at many, many ideas, it’s very natural to decompose them into distinct components—to unleash a big insight in science, or to produce a new product or process that we can all use. So that idea is very common, you see it in the arts and music and invention and science.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> By this definition, AI should actually have a creative advantage. A single person can only encounter and understand so many possible ingredients in a lifetime. \u003cem>We\u003c/em> have to specialize. AI has a much more vast palette to draw from.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> By this definition, AI should actually have a creative advantage. A single person can only encounter and understand so many possible ingredients in a lifetime. \u003cem>We\u003c/em> have to specialize. AI has a much more vast palette to draw from.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What’s been interesting about AI, of course, is that AI reads everything. So anyone who’s been interacting with AI sort of sees like, “Wow, I can talk to this AI about just about anything, and right around the edges of my understanding about things I kind of understand, about things I know nothing about, and it seems to know a lot about a lot of stuff.” So in some sense, at that core level of being able to access ingredients that you can combine with seemingly some sophisticated understanding of those ingredients, AI is pretty impressive. And so in that sense, I think it has in some sense, beyond human creative potential. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What’s been interesting about AI, of course, is that AI reads everything. So anyone who’s been interacting with AI sort of sees like, “Wow, I can talk to this AI about just about anything, and right around the edges of my understanding about things I kind of understand, about things I know nothing about, and it seems to know a lot about a lot of stuff.” So in some sense, at that core level of being able to access ingredients that you can combine with seemingly some sophisticated understanding of those ingredients, AI is pretty impressive. And so in that sense, I think it has in some sense, beyond human creative potential. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Given the vast range of ingredients AI can draw from, you might expect it to already produce endlessly surprising combinations. And Ben says theoretically, it one day could. If it were trained completely differently from how most chatbots are trained today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Given the vast range of ingredients AI can draw from, you might expect it to already produce endlessly surprising combinations. And Ben says theoretically, it one day could. If it were trained completely differently from how most chatbots are trained today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>When you talk like a general purpose, chatbot or whatever, say ChatGPT, it’s sort of trained to produce the right answer, predicting the next token in some probabilistic way that it thinks is most likely to be right. And by predicting the thing that’s sort of most likely to be right all the time, that sounds like you’re homogenizing. It’s not going for the strange answer, right? It’s trying typically to please you by giving you what you want, and what most people want is not some wildly creative answer. They want the right answer. But that’s of course very much about how they were trained. I mean, those chatbots are optimized to do exactly that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>When you talk like a general purpose, chatbot or whatever, say ChatGPT, it’s sort of trained to produce the right answer, predicting the next token in some probabilistic way that it thinks is most likely to be right. And by predicting the thing that’s sort of most likely to be right all the time, that sounds like you’re homogenizing. It’s not going for the strange answer, right? It’s trying typically to please you by giving you what you want, and what most people want is not some wildly creative answer. They want the right answer. But that’s of course very much about how they were trained. I mean, those chatbots are optimized to do exactly that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there could be other algorithms that we could use to train AI. It’s like, let’s say we’re training an AI, and we’re having people rate whether it was really interesting scientifically. Not whether it was right, but whether it was novel. Or novel and right. So I think that there is a world in which AI, and it may come quickly, or not, where AI can be quite creative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there could be other algorithms that we could use to train AI. It’s like, let’s say we’re training an AI, and we’re having people rate whether it was really interesting scientifically. Not whether it was right, but whether it was novel. Or novel and right. So I think that there is a world in which AI, and it may come quickly, or not, where AI can be quite creative.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this world, this second possible future, where the AI companies spend millions, billions, to train up AI that’s really, really creative. In this future, the creativity bottleneck protecting human artists disappears.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this world, this second possible future, where the AI companies spend millions, billions, to train up AI that’s really, really creative. In this future, the creativity bottleneck protecting human artists disappears.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some kinds of creative work, live performances, personal memoir, handmade furniture, are probably still safe. But this timeline does leave many other artists really vulnerable, particularly those who distribute their work on digital marketplaces.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Some kinds of creative work, live performances, personal memoir, handmade furniture, are probably still safe. But this timeline does leave many other artists really vulnerable, particularly those who distribute their work on digital marketplaces.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But even here, there is a bottleneck that could come into play.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But even here, there is a bottleneck that could come into play.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Not a technical bottleneck—something the machine is incapable of doing—or even a legal one, like copyright protection or human likeness permission.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Not a technical bottleneck—something the machine is incapable of doing—or even a legal one, like copyright protection or human likeness permission.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A normative bottleneck: a limit people try to impose collectively, by deciding what kinds of creative work they are willing to accept and reward, often for ethical or even almost spiritual reasons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A normative bottleneck: a limit people try to impose collectively, by deciding what kinds of creative work they are willing to accept and reward, often for ethical or even almost spiritual reasons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re already seeing this now. Many of my artist friends have adopted a kind of “hold the line” mentality against generative AI, in part because they sense that using AI is a betrayal to the artistic community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re already seeing this now. Many of my artist friends have adopted a kind of “hold the line” mentality against generative AI, in part because they sense that using AI is a betrayal to the artistic community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> Well, there is an ethical component, because AI is being trained on real artists. It’s basically being trained on us. And, of course, none of us enjoys that. None of us gave permission to have our art used by AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> Well, there is an ethical component, because AI is being trained on real artists. It’s basically being trained on us. And, of course, none of us enjoys that. None of us gave permission to have our art used by AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: To the extent that science writing can be considered art – I feel this. It’s pretty likely that a decade of my own science writing was scraped from the web and used to train AI models. Nobody asked me for permission, and I certainly didn’t give it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: To the extent that science writing can be considered art – I feel this. It’s pretty likely that a decade of my own science writing was scraped from the web and used to train AI models. Nobody asked me for permission, and I certainly didn’t give it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I would rather have this be at the discretion of every artist—if they want their work to be released into the AI world. I would not want AI to be trained on my work, honestly. Because all of us have our own little tricks and secrets, and I would like to keep them to myself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I would rather have this be at the discretion of every artist—if they want their work to be released into the AI world. I would not want AI to be trained on my work, honestly. Because all of us have our own little tricks and secrets, and I would like to keep them to myself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Some artists believe that the best way to fight back against a technology they didn’t ask for is to reject it altogether, in all forms.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Some artists believe that the best way to fight back against a technology they didn’t ask for is to reject it altogether, in all forms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Other creatives draw the line differently. Maybe AI can be used for research, but not execution. Or maybe it can be used for execution, but only in a specific way, as part of a rigorous, intentional process.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Other creatives draw the line differently. Maybe AI can be used for research, but not execution. Or maybe it can be used for execution, but only in a specific way, as part of a rigorous, intentional process.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wherever this line is drawn – and I expect this to be vehemently contested over the next several years, the normative bottleneck is about \u003cem>process\u003c/em>. Not just \u003cem>what\u003c/em> is made, but \u003cem>how\u003c/em> something is made.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wherever this line is drawn – and I expect this to be vehemently contested over the next several years, the normative bottleneck is about \u003cem>process\u003c/em>. Not just \u003cem>what\u003c/em> is made, but \u003cem>how\u003c/em> something is made.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, the fantasy novelist Brandon Sanderson made this argument explicit in a keynote address called “We Are the Art.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem> The machines can spit out manuscript after manuscript after manuscript. They can pile them to the pillars of heaven itself, but all we have to do is say no. If we do, they lose. Why do we make art? Well, remember, art is not just the story. It is not just the painting or the sculpture or whatever else you love to create. It’s also the process of creation and what that process did to you. We are the art. Thank you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem> The machines can spit out manuscript after manuscript after manuscript. They can pile them to the pillars of heaven itself, but all we have to do is say no. If we do, they lose. Why do we make art? Well, remember, art is not just the story. It is not just the painting or the sculpture or whatever else you love to create. It’s also the process of creation and what that process did to you. We are the art. Thank you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Whether this kind of resistance, this \u003cem>normative\u003c/em> bottleneck can hold will depend on getting others on board. Getting others to agree that part of the value of human art is that it was created by another human being. Someone who felt something, or saw the world in a certain way, and labored to share it with us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Whether this kind of resistance, this \u003cem>normative\u003c/em> bottleneck can hold will depend on getting others on board. Getting others to agree that part of the value of human art is that it was created by another human being. Someone who felt something, or saw the world in a certain way, and labored to share it with us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there’s a third possible future here, one that doesn’t solely rely on social norms around creativity. In this possible future, whether AI becomes more creative or not, people using AI become capable of doing new things that neither humans nor AI could have done alone. Maybe AI becomes yet another tool for human artists. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’ve seen this before: the camera. Photoshop. The electric synthesizer. All these were controversial in their time, often for devaluing certain hard-won skills, like painting in a painstaking, hyper-realistic style, or learning to play the french horn. But today most artists would probably agree that the new tools created new possibilities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’ve seen this before: the camera. Photoshop. The electric synthesizer. All these were controversial in their time, often for devaluing certain hard-won skills, like painting in a painstaking, hyper-realistic style, or learning to play the french horn. But today most artists would probably agree that the new tools created new possibilities. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or maybe AI really is different. Maybe it becomes a kind of thought partner. The machine proposes new ingredients we might never have produced on our own. Not unlike a colleague emailing us an article we might find interesting. Here’s Ben again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Or maybe AI really is different. Maybe it becomes a kind of thought partner. The machine proposes new ingredients we might never have produced on our own. Not unlike a colleague emailing us an article we might find interesting. Here’s Ben again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Maybe when you’re writing, it’s, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement, it’s like another voice on your team. And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product. And it could be that you’re making a screenplay, you’re writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking full control.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Maybe when you’re writing, it’s, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement, it’s like another voice on your team. And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product. And it could be that you’re making a screenplay, you’re writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking full control.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this scenario, we humans use our own creative judgment to run with whichever combination of ingredients seems like it has the most potential. Here, you could even think of “creative judgment” as its own bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this scenario, we humans use our own creative judgment to run with whichever combination of ingredients seems like it has the most potential. Here, you could even think of “creative judgment” as its own bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>You need true expertise around the set of ingredients to understand which combinations are likely or not to be useful. You don’t just randomly put ingredients together in the kitchen. It’s not gonna taste very good. There’s some milk here, and there’s some orange juice, and how about this banana? And look, it’s all spice in the spice rack, you know? And then, oh, and is that chicken? You know, that’s not gonna go very well, right? And pretty much everyone sort of knows that. There’s many, many, many, many possible combinations. But we kind of know instinctually not to try many of them because we know they’re probably not gonna be good.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>You need true expertise around the set of ingredients to understand which combinations are likely or not to be useful. You don’t just randomly put ingredients together in the kitchen. It’s not gonna taste very good. There’s some milk here, and there’s some orange juice, and how about this banana? And look, it’s all spice in the spice rack, you know? And then, oh, and is that chicken? You know, that’s not gonna go very well, right? And pretty much everyone sort of knows that. There’s many, many, many, many possible combinations. But we kind of know instinctually not to try many of them because we know they’re probably not gonna be good.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Even Yevgenia, who I should stress continues to do all of her art by hand, can see the value in this kind of collaboration–if done right, if used as more of a jumping off point than the ultimate destination. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> You can give AI prompts and say, “Okay, give me all these variations of the light bulb in the field and in the pool.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> You can give AI prompts and say, “Okay, give me all these variations of the light bulb in the field and in the pool.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And once it does it, you can say, “No, this is a really stupid idea. Why don’t you try something else?” And you can see what it tries, and you can maybe find something there? So I can see using AI as this little, average-minded, ordinary partner—and then that can spark something in you, in your imagination. It can generate more ideas from us, in a way, because we are competing intellectually with something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And once it does it, you can say, “No, this is a really stupid idea. Why don’t you try something else?” And you can see what it tries, and you can maybe find something there? So I can see using AI as this little, average-minded, ordinary partner—and then that can spark something in you, in your imagination. It can generate more ideas from us, in a way, because we are competing intellectually with something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So those are our three scenarios. AI kind of stalls out creatively or AI actually can do everything humans can do, but cheaper and better. And then we have to decide whether we \u003cem>want\u003c/em> to preserve a role for human creativity. Or, AI and humans collaborate to \u003cem>do \u003c/em>entirely new things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So those are our three scenarios. AI kind of stalls out creatively or AI actually can do everything humans can do, but cheaper and better. And then we have to decide whether we \u003cem>want\u003c/em> to preserve a role for human creativity. Or, AI and humans collaborate to \u003cem>do \u003c/em>entirely new things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Let’s all level-set for a second by noting that lots of people want to be artists, and it’s really, really hard. Already. It’s very hard to make a living as an actor, a musician, an artist, even without computers. Right? And there’s something deeply human about wanting to create and be an artist. And I would say, to be an economist for a second, the demand for their services is lower than the supply of people who would like to do it. So there are many long-suffering artists out there. Does AI make long-suffering artists even more suffering?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Let’s all level-set for a second by noting that lots of people want to be artists, and it’s really, really hard. Already. It’s very hard to make a living as an actor, a musician, an artist, even without computers. Right? And there’s something deeply human about wanting to create and be an artist. And I would say, to be an economist for a second, the demand for their services is lower than the supply of people who would like to do it. So there are many long-suffering artists out there. Does AI make long-suffering artists even more suffering?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Even long-suffering-er.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Long-suffering-er. That’s a word. And I think it could. And it could be because it replaces their output. It’s a cheaper way to produce something people want. On the other hand, maybe AI makes artists more able to do things at lower cost themselves. Maybe it’s a tool, it’s an augmentation, not a replacement. So I think it’s an open question which way it goes. It probably does quite a bit of both. And we’ll have to see. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Long-suffering-er. That’s a word. And I think it could. And it could be because it replaces their output. It’s a cheaper way to produce something people want. On the other hand, maybe AI makes artists more able to do things at lower cost themselves. Maybe it’s a tool, it’s an augmentation, not a replacement. So I think it’s an open question which way it goes. It probably does quite a bit of both. And we’ll have to see. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>A bit of both. Maybe this is the most likely possible future of all. Maybe we get all these timelines happening at once, in different parts of the creative economy. AI replacing artists, AI assisting artists, and AI just getting out of the way, to let artists do their very \u003cem>human\u003c/em> thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>A bit of both. Maybe this is the most likely possible future of all. Maybe we get all these timelines happening at once, in different parts of the creative economy. AI replacing artists, AI assisting artists, and AI just getting out of the way, to let artists do their very \u003cem>human\u003c/em> thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at the Kellogg School of Management, at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today’s show was produced by Steven Jackson and Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory. Recording help from Will Feeney, George Christensen, Laura Pavin and Big Lake Recording Company. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger, who we’re going to miss very much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was Life, Automated, a new KQED podcast about how life is being shaped by machines. Thanks to their team for sharing this story with us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Check back in next week for a new story from Close All Tabs about the fuzzy borders between real and digital life. We’ll see you next week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While the Close All Tabs team churns out our next few episodes, we bring you this must-listen from \u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em>. Generative AI is able to conjure new images, stories, and songs at lightning speed. So what does this mean for humans artists, storytellers and musicians? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em> Host Jess Love explores what happens when AI enters creative markets. We learn that, at least today, key bottlenecks prevent AI from replicating some aspects of creativity. But there’s no guarantee those bottlenecks will exist tomorrow, raising vital questions about what we value in human labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em> is a series about how to live, work and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. It is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management and it is distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Host and Senior Director: Jess Love\u003cbr>Producer: Steven Jackson \u003cbr>Senior Producer: Jesse Dukes\u003cbr>Music: Steven Jackson\u003cbr>Associate Producer: Stacia Sliger\u003cbr>Recording: George Christensen, Will Feeney\u003cbr>Promotional help from Ananya Mallapragada and Charlotte Simmons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Ben Jones, economist, co-director of the Ryan Institute on Complexity \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Sam Goldberg, assistant professor of marketing, Stanford\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://nayberg.org/work\">Yevgenia Nayberg\u003c/a>, artist, illustrator, children’s book author\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/PrZSCYEM4NtmO7opi0fJJixcsaA?domain=papers.ssrn.com\">Generative AI & Creative Goods: Market Expansion, Crowd-out, and Copyright\u003c/a> — Samuel Goldberg, \u003cem>Stanford Graduate School of Business\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/news/blog/2026/08/12/life-automated/\">‘Life, Automated’ explores how AI is reshaping our world\u003c/a> — Roger Anderson, \u003cem>Northwestern Kellogg\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">Life, Automated Podcast\u003c/a> — \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hey Tabbies, The Close All Tabs team is busy churning out our next few episodes. And they’re bangers, I promise. In the meantime, we had to drop you a peek into this new podcast, Life Automated. It’s distributed by KQED, where this show is made, and it also covers big ideas about how technology is shaping our world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their most recent episode about AI and creative work is a must-listen. Now that Generative AI can crank out images, stories, and even songs, what does that mean for humans like us, who do that for a living?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The economists and artists in this episode of Life, Automated\u003cem> \u003c/em>help us understand the aspects of creativity that can’t\u003cem>e\u003c/em>asily be replicated by AI. At least for now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, while the creative workers at Close All Tabs are talking and typing in real life to bring you more stories about the digital world. Here’s that Life Automated episode: “AI, Artists, and the Future of Creative Work.” \u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore all the ways technology is changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the tractor… The washing machine, The calculator. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For a long time, the promise of machines that automate labor was that they would take over the repetitive, dangerous or tedious work; and leave people free to do the things humans are supposed to be best at. You know, to imagine. Communicate. Invent. Make art or music. But it seems like AI might be coming for creative work as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One sector on notice is the entertainment industry. The Writers guild recently bargained for contract language limiting the use of AI writing in screenplays. The Animation Guild recently projected losses of about 20% of animation and visual effects jobs. And SAG-AFTRA, a big actors and writers union, has been in ongoing negotiations to try to prevent human actors from being replaced by AI: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Fran Drescher]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>I don’t subscribe to putting people out of work. I think what’s happening in the entertainment industry is a microcosm of what happening throughout the United States of America whereby workers are being replaced by artificial intelligence, and what is that about actually\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just Hollywood. Writers, illustrators, journalists, composers, architects — even scientists who design experiments, they’re all on alert, wondering whether and how AI will impact the work they \u003cem>love\u003c/em> to do. It’s a question I’ve been wrestling with myself, as a science writer and self described “creative worker” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So today, we’ll be tackling that question, and instead of hearing from just one guest, we have a few: including an economist who studied what happened when generative AI entered one particular creative market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>All of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> As well as a working artist\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I think we will adapt. I’m not sure how yet. I can’t predict the future, but I know it’s your personal voice that will set you apart always.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But first, if you listened to our kickoff episode — back in July, you’ll remember Economist Ben Jones. Ben is my colleague at the Ryan Institute on Complexity where he studies innovation. And, I’m going to start with a short flashback to that conversation, because something he said is really helpful for thinking about the future of creative work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, Ben has been thinking about automation and its impact on jobs for a long time. He says that instead of obsessing over all the things AI can suddenly do really well, we should spend more time focusing on what it can’t do, at least not yet. Ben calls these things – bottlenecks. I’m Jess Love, this is Life, Automated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, so can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> Well, of course it’s a metaphor from a bottle and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle, depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, or how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck and in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Much of the economy has that flavor where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: In other words, even if some parts of a system get really, really fast and easy, it’s the slowest parts of the system, the parts most difficult to automate, that will determine just how much the system overall changes. As an example from his own job, Ben points to statistical regressions, which computers do incredibly well much better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a-minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> And so we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say ‘no’, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> For scientific researchers, these ‘other things’ might be collecting the right data, or building the instruments to collect the right data, or even waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to emerge that would let us interpret that data. Like the collapse of an economy, or the collision of two stars in a particular spot in the sky. Until scientists can push past these bottlenecks, all the statistical regressions in the world will only teach them so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I find Ben’s framework a useful way to think about AI’s impact on any kind of work, creative or otherwise. Most people’s jobs involve a bunch of different tasks. AI might get really good at some of them, but tasks it still struggles with – the bottlenecks, really determine the overall pace of change, as well as where humans can still contribute. And get paid to do so. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, the big takeaway for creative workers: Find the stuff AI can’t do. But what do these bottlenecks look like in creative markets in particular? And would they actually allow writers, artists, and other creative workers to still do that work? Well, it turns out that there’s somebody who has been studying this very thing. Specifically, how AI has impacted stock image websites. Those sell ready-made photos and illustrations that appear in ads, presentations, websites, and articles. Say you’re making an ad for productivity software. Maybe you purchase a stock image of people shaking hands in a conference room, or a woman smiling at her computer screen, or a well-dressed man gazing thoughtfully into the distance, perhaps wondering. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>Stock images, why do we care about these things, right? It’s not a particularly large market. It’s definitely sort of a niche commoditized good. Why is this somewhere where we wanna study AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Sam Goldberg. He teaches marketing at Stanford, where he also studies how technology changes markets and consumer behavior. And he says the stock-image market offers an unusually crisp view of what happens when AI-generated work begins competing directly with work made by people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So back, you know, a few years ago, they were one of the first markets where we saw really capable AI come to artists, and be able to be used to produce really high-quality images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For years, human artists made stock images and uploaded them to online marketplaces. Then those marketplaces began accepting AI-generated work. Suddenly, images made by people were sitting beside images that could be generated by machines, almost instantly, at enormous scale. And because the platform Sam studied required artists to clearly label which images were AI-generated, he could watch the transition in really fine detail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>And so what that means in practice is that after the platform allows generative AI to enter the market, I can see both how non-generative AI artists respond, as well as how generative AI enters the market and what types of images it produces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So here’s how it used to work. Customers would comb through these websites, going through image after image, until they find one that is “close enough”. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I guess the right way to think about it is each individual might have a very specific taste for something, and so when they were trying to find a stock image, they would make some sort of compromise, right? So they would say, “Oh, I’m looking for an image of a tennis ball, and I want an image of a tennis ball in motion,” right? They could go to the stock image website, they’d look up that keyword, and they’d find, you know, maybe pre-generative AI, a couple hundred different versions of that image, right? Maybe none of them are perfect, but one of them’s good enough, and they took it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>So maybe your article is about playing tennis in the rain, and so you would love to have a tennis ball that’s kind of covered in water. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Penetrating water droplets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. And then that is the kind of thing that just doesn’t exist, so maybe you just get a tennis ball in isolation, and that’s good enough. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so in the pre-generative AI world, you know, you were making some compromises with respect to that, oftentimes at least. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> But along comes generative AI, with free or cheap image generators where you can literally tell it: I want a wet tennis ball, resting on a bench, with water beading on it. And it will give you a pretty good version of that exact image. So what happens when a stock image market starts accepting these hyper-specific AI-generated images?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What actually happens in this market is, generative AI enters, the market expands greatly, so there’s a lot more images on the platform. That should probably be pretty intuitive. But not only do more images enter the market, more customers do as well. More images are being purchased and they like the generative AI images because it turns out they’re actually pretty high quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I can see how this is good for me as a consumer. I finally have the perfect raindrop-covered tennis ball for my editorial feature. And I can see how this is good for the platform itself, at least in the short term. What happens to the artists? And I guess I would ask both the artists using generative AI and those who are not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a good question, and I think you are correct in your intuition here that it does seem like it’s probably pretty good for consumers. It does seem like it’s probably pretty good for the platform, at least in the short run. The artist side I think is a little bit more complicated right? Let me walk you through what happens after generative AI enters the platform, and then we can talk about the implications for artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. So what happens is production goes way up. All right? By over 100% more production, so enormous increases in production here. Second, more artists participate in the market. So we see a lot of new artists enter the stock image market. Of course, that overflow of new artists hides a different fact, which is non-generative AI artists exit. Okay? So they stop producing. So we see a reduction in non-generative AI production, as well as a reduction in the number of non-generative AI artists who are participating on the platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we call that in the paper is sort of a little bit of a crowding out effect. So what’s happening is all of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up demand, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, pretty bad news for a lot of artists who choose to keep making images the old way. But, Sam also found a bottleneck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong> What the stock image market sells is not quite images. What the stock image market sells is indemnification, which is to say if the buyer of the image uses it and gets in trouble, so someone says, “Hey, you can’t use that image. That’s copyrighted,” and tries to sue the buyer, the platform says, “You can’t sue the buyer. We’re responsible.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay, and so that’s really important here because if you were to produce that image yourself using a generative model, you could be subject to some sorts of liability for using, for example, copyrighted work in the training of those models.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Got that? AI-generated images are a bit of a legal gray area right now. For one, most of the biggest AI models were trained on data that included copyrighted works. And it’s also unclear which new AI-generated works can get copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anyway, given this uncertainty, you might choose to purchase an AI-generated image from this market rather than just whip up one yourself because you want the legal protection that this affords you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, it turns out that getting this legal protection works a little differently for images that have a human in them. When artists submit images with humans in them, they also need to fill out paperwork showing that they have permission to use those people’s likenesses. This paperwork is \u003cem>not\u003c/em> something the AI can easily produce. And so voila! We have less crowding-out for images containing people than for images of, say, tennis balls. And there it is! Our bottleneck!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, it’s pretty uninspiring: paperwork. Still, in Sam’s study, it was something the machines couldn’t easily replace, and that did allow human creators to survive in that particular corner of the “stock image” market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stepping back, Sam’s findings are stark. AI gave customers a ton more image choices. It helped the market grow. And, it pushed a lot of human artists out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So one read of your study is that AI-generated art is great for everybody but many of the artists. And I just wanna ask, is a world without artists really great for consumers? Is that really what consumers want? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I definitely do not take a strong opinion about if generative AI art is good or bad, right? I think the data suggests that consumers like the generative AI art. They purchase it, and they are willing to purchase it. And so to the extent that they are willing to purchase it, that seems an improvement basically. Now, in the long run, does that mean that we want a world with no human creativity? I don’t think so, and I don’t have, you know, good data to speak to that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, certainly anecdotally, we hear people saying they don’t like AI content. Intuitively, I think you might expect more of that backlash in creative goods markets that are a little bit more emotional or sincere. So for example, you see a lot more of this when people listen to AI-generated music. Or like YouTube even, like creative shorts. Stock images are, are a product being used for a purpose, in a way that, I think is a little different. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So the pressure on human artists that Sam saw in the stock image market… we don’t really know how much they’ll translate to other creative markets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Particularly those where people could be looking for something harder to just generate on demand: a unique interpretation, emotional resonance, a point of view, maybe even a relationship with the person making the work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So to learn more, I spoke with an artist who has spent much of her career making these \u003cem>other\u003c/em> kinds of images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>That’s coming up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, I’m Jess Love. And I’m talking to the artist Yevgenia Nayberg.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Can you talk about the different lanes of art that you make?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I started as a fine artist, so to speak. I’m a painter and so I paint large scale pieces. But also I crossed over pretty early into theater design, set and costume design, and illustration. And about 10 years ago, I also started writing my own books, picture books mostly. And so right now I’m focusing on being an author and picture book illustrator, and a graphic novel illustrator and writer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I really should have asked that question differently. I should have said, “What kinds of art do you \u003cem>not\u003c/em> make?” And then maybe we would’ve gotten through that answer more quickly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia is also someone I’ve worked with. Years ago, when I was working as a magazine editor, I hired her to illustrate some articles. Her work is way more distinctive and conceptually ambitious than anything you’d find on a stock-image website. But it is still commercial art: made for a client, on a deadline, to serve a particular purpose. So I wanted to know whether she saw her own corner of the creative economy as vulnerable to the same forces Sam observed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What do you think about generative AI making art?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not afraid of AI. I know there is a lot of worry amongst artists about it, and I just think it’s probably eventually going to be another tool. I don’t necessarily think that right now AI has the capabilities real, non-artificial artists have. So not afraid at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What about the idea that whether or not this work is as good as what a human could do, it might nonetheless be good enough to somehow compete with human art or human work, either because of discoverability, so with a, flood of lower quality AI images out in the world, it becomes harder to actually find the good ones done by humans or because some of the people who might want to hire artists are pretty comfortable, just generating something for themselves for free?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m sure there are going to be people like that. There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. But I don’t know if you remember in the ’90s when all of this, you know, flood of stock art happened, everyone was using this image of a little light bulb above a person’s head when they wanted to describe an idea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have an idea, all you draw that bulb, and I think that’s the kind of thinking that I see from AI at this point. So it does create some metaphors, but those metaphors are very trite. If my students do this kind of work, I stop them and I tell them, “Look how many people have already done this hypothetical light bulb.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think because AI sort of collects all these similar ideas and then generates as a result, it’s a very banal result, and I’m not interested in that, and I don’t think my clients, the kind of clients that I work with, are interested in those very typical, ordinary ideas. So I can do better than that at this point, for now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia sees a real difference between the illustration work she does, for specific clients, and the broad, commercial stock image market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>I think what illustration, conceptual illustration does is that it creates a second track to the story. So instead of illustrating something literally, it adds to the story. It can take the story and it can create this interesting creative tension between the illustration and the story, heightening the story in a certain way. So I think with stocks, you often lack that. It’s very hard to prompt an image bank to generate something like this. Even if you search for an image that will fit the story. Fitting the story is one thing. Elevating the story is a completely different thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]\u003c/strong>: Well yeah, an image that elevates a story does seem a lot better than one that merely “fits” a story. But Yevgenia’s not exactly an unbiased third-party here. So now I was curious what Sam Goldberg would make of this claim—that AI art can spray down the market with lots of images that might \u003cem>fit\u003c/em> a particular need really, really well, leading to plenty of satisfied customers. But those images are nonetheless probably not going to be novel enough to \u003cem>elevate\u003c/em> a story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Is this a bottleneck?” I asked Sam.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> So you are not expecting this question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I actually ran some of your results past an illustrator friend of mine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And what she said was basically, “Look, you can use generative AI to come up with thousands of images of light bulbs, light bulbs in this environment, in this you know, room, in front of this person. But what you can’t do is get AI to go that one step beyond and think through, well, what is another way of getting across creativity or innovation? So it will give you a billion light bulbs, but it’s not necessarily really going to give you variety at the concept level. And I’m curious what you would make of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I’m hesitant to disagree with the artist here, but-\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with an artist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with the artist. Yeah, so I actually don’t think that’s incongruent with what we see happen in these markets. So one analysis we do in the paper… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Sam’s team actually found a way to represent the images mathematically. This let them analyze the novelty of this flood of new AI-generated images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>And so we actually – I sort of agree with her, right? Which is to say, one thing we don’t see is – we don’t see a huge increase in novelty in the market. But essentially, what we see happen is we don’t see a lot of sort of images enter the market that look very different than the images that already exist there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Interesting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What we \u003cem>do\u003c/em> see is that anywhere there’s a gap in the market, so where there’s two images on either side, but there’s not an image in between, generative AI is very good at filling those gaps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So…at least for now, AI can generate lots and lots of variations on a theme. But what Yevgenia’s describing is the ability to think \u003cem>beyond\u003c/em> that theme. And Sam says, “yeah, AI doesn’t seem to be as good at that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s totally reasonable to say that your illustrator friend may be correct that that is something that these models struggle with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong> I’m surprised. I was ready to fight the economist!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh no! I actually don’t think you guys would fight that much, but we won’t put you in a cage match together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This idea of bringing true novelty to an assignment: that new metaphor, that “second track.” This may be an important source of value that human artists bring to a project. So…what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s do something fun. Obviously we have worked together in the past. I have hired you to do beautiful custom illustrations for articles, on Kellogg Insight, where I was the editor-in-chief for many years. And so it’s not even hypothetical to say I would often come to you with a story on innovation, entrepreneurship, you know, how to brainstorm. And so let’s say I bring you this article, it’s about “Better Ways of Brainstorming”, and I’m like, “And also, I think I got a pretty good idea for you. It’s a group of people brainstorming, and above them, they’re, like, collectively building a big light bulb. And it’s like a hot air balloon light bulb, and it’s just, wow, you can just see this is going places. “What do you think?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, Jess, I think actually an air balloon light bulb is already a beautiful idea. If I’m not mistaken, I think I did an illustration like this for you years ago. So, maybe we should try doing something different this time. We don’t wanna repeat ourselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Yes, Yevgenia was right about this. I tracked down \u003ca target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/creating-urgency-around-corporate-innovation\">the illustration\u003c/a> from the Kellogg Insight archives. It appeared alongside a 2015 article on corporate innovation. And it featured someone riding through the sky in a lightbulb-shaped hot-air-balloon. Which is almost certainly why the idea formed instantly in my own mind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>But what it did not have is the group of people underneath it, because this, I think, is something that would spoil this illustration. Because you really shouldn’t try to stuff all your ideas into a single illustration. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can go in a completely direction as well. You mentioned brainstorming, so I think maybe using those words and turning them into something visual could work, like creating an actual brainstorm where, you know, that your brain is being blown away by the wind. And, that can actually push a story into kind of a funny territory instead of keeping it very serious, because normally when we say a brainstorm, we associate it with really serious, earnest scientists developing something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But maybe I want to make a little joke and say, you know, “Hey, you can also brainstorm. You don’t have to be so serious about that.” So it also can change the mood of your article, the mood of your story a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And maybe we don’t, maybe you want to be super serious, and then you would reject this idea. But maybe you would say, “Hey, I really like it because we’ve done so many super serious articles. Let’s lighten up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Love it. That’s great. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Okay! So Yevgenia doesn’t just take an assignment and execute it. She thinks it through: The light bulb is cliche, but the hot air balloon idea is interesting. The hot air balloon is interesting, but the people underneath are weighing the idea down. Oh yeah, and because we have a history together, Yevgenia can tell me that we’ve done something really similar 11 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then she offers something completely different, playing off the idea of a storm. But really what she’s doing is asking a question about intent. What mood should the illustration create? Serious? Funny? Can the image change the way the reader experiences the story?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yevgenia is much more than a picture-making machine. She has a very finely honed, very unique way of seeing and depicting the world. As much as any technical skills, \u003cem>that’s\u003c/em> what I hired her to bring to the table. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, to me, at least – sounds like another bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, for established artists like Yegvenia, this should be somewhat reassuring. But there’s still a problem. Nobody begins a career with fully formed artistic taste. That can take years to develop. And often, people develop it while doing smaller, more routine work. Like, maybe, selling their art on a stock image website. And if AI-generated art takes off, even in the most routine, commercial, transactional spaces, it could eventually shape the art we encounter elsewhere too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There is a dangerous territory when real humans, real artists will start to imitate AI if there is enough demand for AI art. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia teaches young artists, and she’s been seeing this play out with her students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>A lot of them are concerned with style and they all talk about style, and I couldn’t really understand what they meant because I thought– I kind of thought of style as voice, not so much as like a stylistic direction. Turns out they’re trying to pick a style and match it from what they see, let’s say, on Instagram. So there is a lot of sameness there already, and this is something that they’re trying to imitate in hopes of finding jobs maybe. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> She thinks AI could be like Instagram on steroids, sending the same images into every artist’s collective consciousness. Yevgenia says she is \u003cem>all for \u003c/em>her students getting hired to make art. But this trend of homogenization and imitation – is troubling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> My primary job is to educate an artist, I want them to work obviously, and I would like to help them as much as possible. But again, I’d like to focus on developing their creativity and their uniqueness more than anything else. I always tell my students, you know, “make something worth stealing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For an individual artist, having a unique voice ‘worth stealing’ can be the difference between mediocrity and greatness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And economist Ben Jones\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>says that everyone benefits from having more, unique, creative perspectives in the mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What we actually want is people reaching for very different types of things based on their different experiences, right? And so what’s interesting, one of the reasons that we think that, you know, a kind of a society with wide-ranging pockets of expertise, interests, cultural backgrounds, et cetera, can be extremely creative, is because people are coming at questions with different sort of perspectives and ideas. They’re even coming at different questions, ’cause the kind of questions that occur to one person might not occur to another, and that’s true in science and invention, it’s true in entrepreneurship. We don’t want everyone trying the same business model. We want people trying wildly different business models, and we’ll see which one the market takes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>There’s real value in difference. In start-ups, in science, and in art. And if everyone begins from the same machine-generated suggestions, we could end up with more of everything—but very little that’s new, special, or unique.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, this is the paradox: AI can generate a staggering number of possibilities, filling countless gaps in the marketplace. And yet, so much of what it produces feels… the same. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While AI-generated images and videos and books are running rampant in some artistic markets–plenty of people are just fine with elevator music, thank you very much–real novelty, real creativity, seems to be the purview of humans. Leaving human creative workers with an important role to play. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whew. That’s a relief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So… is that the end? Should we play the ending music, roll the credits? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, not so fast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is where we stand on Labor Day 2026 sure, but if we know anything about AI tools, it’s that they can change fast. So what happens next? Where’s this all headed? Well, based on my conversations with scholars and artists, I can see three possible futures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the first timeline, things continue along the lines they are now. The machines do get better at generating art. Maybe AI-generated images get even more photorealistic, or maybe AI-generated writing sheds its telltale ticks – you know, those cringy buzzwords that scream, “I’m AI-generated!” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the improvements are really around the margins. And so genuine creativity remains a bottleneck protecting human creatives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a second timeline, and in this timeline, AI learns to be \u003cem>very\u003c/em> creative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ben sees this possible future as pretty likely. Because new ideas rarely emerge out of the blue. They are often composed of existing ingredients, just combined in new ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>In many, many fields, people have separately discovered that creativity often looks like a new combination of things that already existed. So, for example, Thomas Edison did not call the light bulb, at first, the light bulb. He called it the electric candle because he was taking the candle, which was an old technology, and electricity, which was a new technology, and combining them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you look at many, many ideas, it’s very natural to decompose them into distinct components—to unleash a big insight in science, or to produce a new product or process that we can all use. So that idea is very common, you see it in the arts and music and invention and science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> By this definition, AI should actually have a creative advantage. A single person can only encounter and understand so many possible ingredients in a lifetime. \u003cem>We\u003c/em> have to specialize. AI has a much more vast palette to draw from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What’s been interesting about AI, of course, is that AI reads everything. So anyone who’s been interacting with AI sort of sees like, “Wow, I can talk to this AI about just about anything, and right around the edges of my understanding about things I kind of understand, about things I know nothing about, and it seems to know a lot about a lot of stuff.” So in some sense, at that core level of being able to access ingredients that you can combine with seemingly some sophisticated understanding of those ingredients, AI is pretty impressive. And so in that sense, I think it has in some sense, beyond human creative potential. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Given the vast range of ingredients AI can draw from, you might expect it to already produce endlessly surprising combinations. And Ben says theoretically, it one day could. If it were trained completely differently from how most chatbots are trained today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>When you talk like a general purpose, chatbot or whatever, say ChatGPT, it’s sort of trained to produce the right answer, predicting the next token in some probabilistic way that it thinks is most likely to be right. And by predicting the thing that’s sort of most likely to be right all the time, that sounds like you’re homogenizing. It’s not going for the strange answer, right? It’s trying typically to please you by giving you what you want, and what most people want is not some wildly creative answer. They want the right answer. But that’s of course very much about how they were trained. I mean, those chatbots are optimized to do exactly that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there could be other algorithms that we could use to train AI. It’s like, let’s say we’re training an AI, and we’re having people rate whether it was really interesting scientifically. Not whether it was right, but whether it was novel. Or novel and right. So I think that there is a world in which AI, and it may come quickly, or not, where AI can be quite creative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this world, this second possible future, where the AI companies spend millions, billions, to train up AI that’s really, really creative. In this future, the creativity bottleneck protecting human artists disappears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some kinds of creative work, live performances, personal memoir, handmade furniture, are probably still safe. But this timeline does leave many other artists really vulnerable, particularly those who distribute their work on digital marketplaces.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But even here, there is a bottleneck that could come into play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Not a technical bottleneck—something the machine is incapable of doing—or even a legal one, like copyright protection or human likeness permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A normative bottleneck: a limit people try to impose collectively, by deciding what kinds of creative work they are willing to accept and reward, often for ethical or even almost spiritual reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re already seeing this now. Many of my artist friends have adopted a kind of “hold the line” mentality against generative AI, in part because they sense that using AI is a betrayal to the artistic community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> Well, there is an ethical component, because AI is being trained on real artists. It’s basically being trained on us. And, of course, none of us enjoys that. None of us gave permission to have our art used by AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: To the extent that science writing can be considered art – I feel this. It’s pretty likely that a decade of my own science writing was scraped from the web and used to train AI models. Nobody asked me for permission, and I certainly didn’t give it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I would rather have this be at the discretion of every artist—if they want their work to be released into the AI world. I would not want AI to be trained on my work, honestly. Because all of us have our own little tricks and secrets, and I would like to keep them to myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Some artists believe that the best way to fight back against a technology they didn’t ask for is to reject it altogether, in all forms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other creatives draw the line differently. Maybe AI can be used for research, but not execution. Or maybe it can be used for execution, but only in a specific way, as part of a rigorous, intentional process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wherever this line is drawn – and I expect this to be vehemently contested over the next several years, the normative bottleneck is about \u003cem>process\u003c/em>. Not just \u003cem>what\u003c/em> is made, but \u003cem>how\u003c/em> something is made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, the fantasy novelist Brandon Sanderson made this argument explicit in a keynote address called “We Are the Art.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Brandon Sanderson]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> The machines can spit out manuscript after manuscript after manuscript. They can pile them to the pillars of heaven itself, but all we have to do is say no. If we do, they lose. Why do we make art? Well, remember, art is not just the story. It is not just the painting or the sculpture or whatever else you love to create. It’s also the process of creation and what that process did to you. We are the art. Thank you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Whether this kind of resistance, this \u003cem>normative\u003c/em> bottleneck can hold will depend on getting others on board. Getting others to agree that part of the value of human art is that it was created by another human being. Someone who felt something, or saw the world in a certain way, and labored to share it with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a third possible future here, one that doesn’t solely rely on social norms around creativity. In this possible future, whether AI becomes more creative or not, people using AI become capable of doing new things that neither humans nor AI could have done alone. Maybe AI becomes yet another tool for human artists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve seen this before: the camera. Photoshop. The electric synthesizer. All these were controversial in their time, often for devaluing certain hard-won skills, like painting in a painstaking, hyper-realistic style, or learning to play the french horn. But today most artists would probably agree that the new tools created new possibilities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or maybe AI really is different. Maybe it becomes a kind of thought partner. The machine proposes new ingredients we might never have produced on our own. Not unlike a colleague emailing us an article we might find interesting. Here’s Ben again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Maybe when you’re writing, it’s, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement, it’s like another voice on your team. And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product. And it could be that you’re making a screenplay, you’re writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking full control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this scenario, we humans use our own creative judgment to run with whichever combination of ingredients seems like it has the most potential. Here, you could even think of “creative judgment” as its own bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>You need true expertise around the set of ingredients to understand which combinations are likely or not to be useful. You don’t just randomly put ingredients together in the kitchen. It’s not gonna taste very good. There’s some milk here, and there’s some orange juice, and how about this banana? And look, it’s all spice in the spice rack, you know? And then, oh, and is that chicken? You know, that’s not gonna go very well, right? And pretty much everyone sort of knows that. There’s many, many, many, many possible combinations. But we kind of know instinctually not to try many of them because we know they’re probably not gonna be good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Even Yevgenia, who I should stress continues to do all of her art by hand, can see the value in this kind of collaboration–if done right, if used as more of a jumping off point than the ultimate destination. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> You can give AI prompts and say, “Okay, give me all these variations of the light bulb in the field and in the pool.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And once it does it, you can say, “No, this is a really stupid idea. Why don’t you try something else?” And you can see what it tries, and you can maybe find something there? So I can see using AI as this little, average-minded, ordinary partner—and then that can spark something in you, in your imagination. It can generate more ideas from us, in a way, because we are competing intellectually with something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So those are our three scenarios. AI kind of stalls out creatively or AI actually can do everything humans can do, but cheaper and better. And then we have to decide whether we \u003cem>want\u003c/em> to preserve a role for human creativity. Or, AI and humans collaborate to \u003cem>do \u003c/em>entirely new things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Let’s all level-set for a second by noting that lots of people want to be artists, and it’s really, really hard. Already. It’s very hard to make a living as an actor, a musician, an artist, even without computers. Right? And there’s something deeply human about wanting to create and be an artist. And I would say, to be an economist for a second, the demand for their services is lower than the supply of people who would like to do it. So there are many long-suffering artists out there. Does AI make long-suffering artists even more suffering?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Even long-suffering-er.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Long-suffering-er. That’s a word. And I think it could. And it could be because it replaces their output. It’s a cheaper way to produce something people want. On the other hand, maybe AI makes artists more able to do things at lower cost themselves. Maybe it’s a tool, it’s an augmentation, not a replacement. So I think it’s an open question which way it goes. It probably does quite a bit of both. And we’ll have to see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>A bit of both. Maybe this is the most likely possible future of all. Maybe we get all these timelines happening at once, in different parts of the creative economy. AI replacing artists, AI assisting artists, and AI just getting out of the way, to let artists do their very \u003cem>human\u003c/em> thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at the Kellogg School of Management, at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today’s show was produced by Steven Jackson and Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory. Recording help from Will Feeney, George Christensen, Laura Pavin and Big Lake Recording Company. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger, who we’re going to miss very much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was Life, Automated, a new KQED podcast about how life is being shaped by machines. Thanks to their team for sharing this story with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Check back in next week for a new story from Close All Tabs about the fuzzy borders between real and digital life. We’ll see you next week.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law",
"title": "Newsom Orders California Agencies to Develop New AI Safety Plans After Rejecting Tougher Law",
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"headTitle": "Newsom Orders California Agencies to Develop New AI Safety Plans After Rejecting Tougher Law | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> announced Friday that he is directing state agencies to develop artificial intelligence safety recommendations, some of which were part of a bill he vetoed two years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His change of tune on those measures, including requiring AI developers to include a “kill switch” to shut off certain programs in emergencies, comes in response to growing public alarm over the fast-developing technology’s potential “catastrophic” harms such as AI creating a bioweapon or bringing down the power grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom is seeking recommendations from the Government Operations Agency and the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services by Nov. 16, which could form the basis of a special legislative session on the issue. He floated the possibility of calling one this week in an \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2026/09/17/newsom-floats-special-session-or-executive-action-on-ai-01082216\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">interview with Politico\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom has sought in recent weeks to respond to several incidents in which AI agents from leading developers OpenAI and Anthropic broke away from testing environments, gained access to the open internet and carried out cyberattacks on other websites and companies. Earlier this month, a researcher set off a panic when he resigned from Anthropic while warning the technology could “kill all humans;” the researcher’s former colleagues were quick to agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The hackings have captivated the public and seem to confirm AI researchers’ fears that the fast-developing technology is improving its own capabilities beyond human control. Several industry leaders last week endorsed Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/12/technology/anthropic-dario-amodei-ai-slowdown.html\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">call for a slowdown\u003c/a> in development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom’s order directs the state agencies to recommend changes in state law to require external safety evaluators at AI companies, as well as require independent verification for AI companies’ safety frameworks that are required under current state law. He’s also seeking recommendations on how to require a kill switch, and how to expand the safety incidents companies must report to the state to include “a range of loss-of-control incidents” such as the recently reported hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094819\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094819\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Regulation is unlikely from the federal government; President Donald Trump remains all-in on speeding up AI development in the face of competition from China and said the calls for a slowdown are a “conspiracy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom, a likely 2028 presidential contender, said Friday in a press release that should “alarm every American.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re going to speed up our work on substantial and responsible AI oversight before it’s too late,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California under Newsom has enacted several first-in-the-nation laws to curb the potentially existential risks of AI. In 2025, he signed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb53\">Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which requires large AI model developers to publish frameworks on how they manage safety incidents and assess catastrophic risk — defined as incidents involving 50 or more deaths, chemical or biological weapons or more than $1 billion of theft or damage. They also must report critical safety incidents to the state. Illinois and New York have similar laws.[aside postID=news_12099017 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GavinNewsomAI.jpg']That law sets a high bar for what incidents must be reported, though, including only those involving deaths, injuries or the “materialization of a catastrophic risk.” Advocates for greater tech regulation want the threshold to be lower to cover more incidents like the recent hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and was fiercely opposed by several of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both bills were authored by Democratic Sen. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/scott-wiener-100936\">Scott Wiener\u003c/a>, whose San Francisco district is home to the most prominent AI companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We must act with all possible haste to address the serious risks of AI-driven catastrophe, and I commend the governor for taking this important step,” he said. “I’m glad to see the strong AI safety framework I laid out in 2024 is still being used to guide policy in 2026.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12092171\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12092171\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 14-year-old boy looks at an iPhone screen displaying various social media and messaging apps on March 29, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and received fierce opposition from several, but not all, of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom wrote two years ago \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">in a veto message\u003c/a> that while he agreed with the need to require safety protocols, the bill could restrict AI development at large companies “at the potential expense of curtailing the very innovation that fuels advancement in favor of the public good.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I agree with the author — we cannot afford to wait for a major catastrophe to occur before taking action to protect the public,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since then, more in the industry have embraced third-party evaluations. This year, Newsom signed two laws to verify, register and set standards for those external monitors. But the new laws do not require companies to use them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his recent call for a slowdown in AI development, Amodei also called for third-party monitoring; both Anthropic and OpenAI say they will commit to the practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2026/09/ai-rules-newsom-state-directive/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday ordered state agencies to develop safety regulations for artificial intelligence after vetoing tougher rules two years ago.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> announced Friday that he is directing state agencies to develop artificial intelligence safety recommendations, some of which were part of a bill he vetoed two years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His change of tune on those measures, including requiring AI developers to include a “kill switch” to shut off certain programs in emergencies, comes in response to growing public alarm over the fast-developing technology’s potential “catastrophic” harms such as AI creating a bioweapon or bringing down the power grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom is seeking recommendations from the Government Operations Agency and the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services by Nov. 16, which could form the basis of a special legislative session on the issue. He floated the possibility of calling one this week in an \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2026/09/17/newsom-floats-special-session-or-executive-action-on-ai-01082216\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">interview with Politico\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom has sought in recent weeks to respond to several incidents in which AI agents from leading developers OpenAI and Anthropic broke away from testing environments, gained access to the open internet and carried out cyberattacks on other websites and companies. Earlier this month, a researcher set off a panic when he resigned from Anthropic while warning the technology could “kill all humans;” the researcher’s former colleagues were quick to agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The hackings have captivated the public and seem to confirm AI researchers’ fears that the fast-developing technology is improving its own capabilities beyond human control. Several industry leaders last week endorsed Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/12/technology/anthropic-dario-amodei-ai-slowdown.html\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">call for a slowdown\u003c/a> in development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom’s order directs the state agencies to recommend changes in state law to require external safety evaluators at AI companies, as well as require independent verification for AI companies’ safety frameworks that are required under current state law. He’s also seeking recommendations on how to require a kill switch, and how to expand the safety incidents companies must report to the state to include “a range of loss-of-control incidents” such as the recently reported hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094819\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094819\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Regulation is unlikely from the federal government; President Donald Trump remains all-in on speeding up AI development in the face of competition from China and said the calls for a slowdown are a “conspiracy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom, a likely 2028 presidential contender, said Friday in a press release that should “alarm every American.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re going to speed up our work on substantial and responsible AI oversight before it’s too late,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California under Newsom has enacted several first-in-the-nation laws to curb the potentially existential risks of AI. In 2025, he signed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb53\">Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which requires large AI model developers to publish frameworks on how they manage safety incidents and assess catastrophic risk — defined as incidents involving 50 or more deaths, chemical or biological weapons or more than $1 billion of theft or damage. They also must report critical safety incidents to the state. Illinois and New York have similar laws.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>That law sets a high bar for what incidents must be reported, though, including only those involving deaths, injuries or the “materialization of a catastrophic risk.” Advocates for greater tech regulation want the threshold to be lower to cover more incidents like the recent hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and was fiercely opposed by several of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both bills were authored by Democratic Sen. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/scott-wiener-100936\">Scott Wiener\u003c/a>, whose San Francisco district is home to the most prominent AI companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We must act with all possible haste to address the serious risks of AI-driven catastrophe, and I commend the governor for taking this important step,” he said. “I’m glad to see the strong AI safety framework I laid out in 2024 is still being used to guide policy in 2026.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12092171\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12092171\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 14-year-old boy looks at an iPhone screen displaying various social media and messaging apps on March 29, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and received fierce opposition from several, but not all, of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom wrote two years ago \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">in a veto message\u003c/a> that while he agreed with the need to require safety protocols, the bill could restrict AI development at large companies “at the potential expense of curtailing the very innovation that fuels advancement in favor of the public good.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I agree with the author — we cannot afford to wait for a major catastrophe to occur before taking action to protect the public,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since then, more in the industry have embraced third-party evaluations. This year, Newsom signed two laws to verify, register and set standards for those external monitors. But the new laws do not require companies to use them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his recent call for a slowdown in AI development, Amodei also called for third-party monitoring; both Anthropic and OpenAI say they will commit to the practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2026/09/ai-rules-newsom-state-directive/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "nvidia-ai-researchers-family-demands-answers-after-his-death",
"title": "Nvidia AI Researcher’s Family Demands Answers After His Death",
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"headTitle": "Nvidia AI Researcher’s Family Demands Answers After His Death | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Months after a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">Bay Area AI\u003c/a> researcher’s death, his family and friends gathered outside Palo Alto City Hall this week to demand answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On July 22, Palo Alto police responded to a report of a possible suicide by an adult male, who was then transported to a hospital, according to a statement from the department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Irfan Al-Hussaini, a 32-year old senior data scientist at Nvidia, died eight days later, his family said in a press release. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Salma Begum, mother of Irfan Al-Hussaini, is consoled by a supporter of the family after a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, where the family called for a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re now pushing for a deeper investigation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the family’s release, Palo Alto police told them it will not open an active investigation unless directed by the county medical examiner, which has ruled Al-Hussaini’s death a \u003ca href=\"https://data.sccgov.org/Health/Medical-Examiner-Coroner-Full-dataset/s3fb-yrjp/data_preview\">suicide\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have assembled here, all of us, to get the attention of the Palo Alto Police Department,” said Irfan’s father Tahmeed Al-Hussaini, who described his son as “a simple, compassionate and adorable person.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He loved sports, games, traveling and nature. He had a soft heart,” Al-Hussaini said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Al-Hussaini’s father, who flew in from Bangladesh with his wife as soon as they heard their son was in the hospital, has stayed in the country looking for answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I already changed my ticket twice, and I’m still waiting here for clarity,” Al-Hussaini’s father said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100437\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dr. Sarah Al-Hussaini, sister of Irfan Al-Hussaini, speaks at a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, demanding a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The family reached out to attorney Anthony Brass, a former prosecutor specializing in domestic violence and homicide, and asked whether he thought the authorities should investigate the death, Brass told KQED on Thursday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brass said that the absence of a suicide note, the “evidence of domestic violence in which [Al-Hussaini] was a victim,” and the timeline of events on July 22 were all red flags. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s “very strange to be that engaged in your professional life and to make sure you have permission for the day off the next day as a precursor to suicide while not bothering to write a suicide note,” Brass said. “It just simply makes no sense.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, an attorney representing Fabia Farlin Athena, Al-Hussaini’s widow, told KQED she wants to cooperate fully with the investigation, and that she demanded a full autopsy, which the medical examiner performed on Aug. 31.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Irfan is ‘everything’ to Athena. She misses him every second of the day,” attorney Matthew Davis wrote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100443\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Salma Begum, mother of Irfan Al-Hussaini, is consoled by a supporter of the family after a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, where the family called for a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Palo Alto Police Department told KQED that neither officials nor the examiner have identified any evidence the death was a result of foul play. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The medical examiner has not completed their report, and the case remains open online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“At this time the case is still under investigation pending the report from the medical examiner,” Nicolas Martinez, a spokesperson for the police department, said in an email. “We have received materials from the family and others, and our review and investigation is on-going.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s Alina Ta and \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/slewis\">\u003cem>Sukey Lewis\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100437\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dr. Sarah Al-Hussaini, sister of Irfan Al-Hussaini, speaks at a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, demanding a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a statement, an attorney representing Fabia Farlin Athena, Al-Hussaini’s widow, told KQED she wants to cooperate fully with the investigation, and that she demanded a full autopsy, which the medical examiner performed on Aug. 31.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Irfan is ‘everything’ to Athena. She misses him every second of the day,” attorney Matthew Davis wrote. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100443\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Salma Begum, mother of Irfan Al-Hussaini, is consoled by a supporter of the family after a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, where the family called for a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“At this time the case is still under investigation pending the report from the medical examiner,” Nicolas Martinez, a spokesperson for the police department, said in an email. “We have received materials from the family and others, and our review and investigation is on-going.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The family of data scientist Irfan Al-Hussaini traveled to Palo Alto to investigate after his death was ruled a suicide.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Months after a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">Bay Area AI\u003c/a> researcher’s death, his family and friends gathered outside Palo Alto City Hall this week to demand answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On July 22, Palo Alto police responded to a report of a possible suicide by an adult male, who was then transported to a hospital, according to a statement from the department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Irfan Al-Hussaini, a 32-year old senior data scientist at Nvidia, died eight days later, his family said in a press release. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Salma Begum, mother of Irfan Al-Hussaini, is consoled by a supporter of the family after a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, where the family called for a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re now pushing for a deeper investigation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the family’s release, Palo Alto police told them it will not open an active investigation unless directed by the county medical examiner, which has ruled Al-Hussaini’s death a \u003ca href=\"https://data.sccgov.org/Health/Medical-Examiner-Coroner-Full-dataset/s3fb-yrjp/data_preview\">suicide\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have assembled here, all of us, to get the attention of the Palo Alto Police Department,” said Irfan’s father Tahmeed Al-Hussaini, who described his son as “a simple, compassionate and adorable person.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He loved sports, games, traveling and nature. He had a soft heart,” Al-Hussaini said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Al-Hussaini’s father, who flew in from Bangladesh with his wife as soon as they heard their son was in the hospital, has stayed in the country looking for answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I already changed my ticket twice, and I’m still waiting here for clarity,” Al-Hussaini’s father said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100437\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dr. Sarah Al-Hussaini, sister of Irfan Al-Hussaini, speaks at a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, demanding a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The family reached out to attorney Anthony Brass, a former prosecutor specializing in domestic violence and homicide, and asked whether he thought the authorities should investigate the death, Brass told KQED on Thursday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brass said that the absence of a suicide note, the “evidence of domestic violence in which [Al-Hussaini] was a victim,” and the timeline of events on July 22 were all red flags. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s “very strange to be that engaged in your professional life and to make sure you have permission for the day off the next day as a precursor to suicide while not bothering to write a suicide note,” Brass said. “It just simply makes no sense.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, an attorney representing Fabia Farlin Athena, Al-Hussaini’s widow, told KQED she wants to cooperate fully with the investigation, and that she demanded a full autopsy, which the medical examiner performed on Aug. 31.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Irfan is ‘everything’ to Athena. She misses him every second of the day,” attorney Matthew Davis wrote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100443\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Salma Begum, mother of Irfan Al-Hussaini, is consoled by a supporter of the family after a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, where the family called for a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Palo Alto Police Department told KQED that neither officials nor the examiner have identified any evidence the death was a result of foul play. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The medical examiner has not completed their report, and the case remains open online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“At this time the case is still under investigation pending the report from the medical examiner,” Nicolas Martinez, a spokesperson for the police department, said in an email. “We have received materials from the family and others, and our review and investigation is on-going.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s Alina Ta and \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/slewis\">\u003cem>Sukey Lewis\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "will-we-still-learn-languages-when-machines-can-translate-with-abby-walker",
"title": "Will We Still Learn Languages When Machines Can Translate? (with Abby Walker)",
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"headTitle": "Will We Still Learn Languages When Machines Can Translate? (with Abby Walker) | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Live AI translation tools are making it easier to converse across languages without a human translator, a phrasebook, or years of study. So will we all just stop taking Spanish or Mandarin classes? Sociolinguist \u003ca href=\"https://liberalarts.vt.edu/departments-and-schools/department-of-english/faculty/abby-walker.html\">Abby Walker\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. She shares the many reasons we learn new languages, some of which have little to do with functional communication at all. We also hear how one AI-assisted conversation brought two future in-laws together, why machine translation is still so darn buggy, and why some languages are attracting a resurgence of new learners even in the age of translation apps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I think it’s fair to say that over the past five years, we’ve been bombarded by all the new things AI can suddenly do. It’s solving these long unsolved math theorems, generating songs that rack up millions of listens, and even colluding with other AIs to break into servers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s so much crazy stuff happening, that a lot of other advances that would’ve seemed mind-blowing to us 10, 15 years ago feel almost pedestrian in comparison. I’d put real-time language translation down as one of these advances. Chat bots and translation apps now draw from a range of different kinds of AI to offer live translation for tons of different languages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can hear something in a language you don’t know, like Korean. You can use your phone to translate that speech into a language you do know, like English. “Which way is the restroom?” Offer your response in English. “Oh, yeah, it’s down this hallway here, second door on the right side.” And then it will speak your response aloud in Korean.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can do this today. People already are doing this. What’s more, a lot of tech companies are developing wearables, think smart glasses, smart earbuds, to make live translation more frictionless. No more fumbling for your phone. This is literally straight out of science fiction. Star Trek’s universal translator, Dr.Who’s TARDIS translation matrix, and from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, the Babel Fish. For me, this raises some big questions. What do these live translation tools really let us do that we couldn’t do before? Will they ever fully replace human translators? And should my eight-year-old still be taking Spanish classes in school?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today’s guest is Abby Walker, a sociolinguist at Virginia Tech, where she’s co-director of the Speech Lab. She’s also a longtime friend from my grad school days. I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Welcome Abby Walker to Life Automated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me, Jess. I’m so excited to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So there’s a clip I want to play for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>I wanted Abby and I to listen to some tape we recorded from a person who recently used one of these live translation tools. This person’s name is Larry Berliner. Larry’s son was in love, and this was Larry’s first time meeting the girlfriend’s parents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s the catch. Larry, father of the boyfriend, spoke English but not Chinese. And Kevin, father of the girlfriend, spoke Chinese but not English. So they used a ChatGPT app on one of their cell phones to translate between them. In this first clip, Larry’s just remarking about what this tool did for the two of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> If not for this, I wouldn’t have got to know Kevin at all. I was able to connect with Kevin, meet Kevin, talk to Kevin seriously about myself, about my business, about my thoughts of his own daughter, what his daughter has transformed in my son. So much, right? There was so much I was able to say to him.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> And here’s another part of that conversation, this time with Larry talking about how having the tool helped everyone else in the room, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> We have all been there, where there’s the individual who’s the translator amongst three people or among five people, sometimes eight. And two things happen. One is that translator has to work so hard. You can see how much energy they’re having to invest in translating for everybody and make the room successful. The other thing you see is how slow everything goes. The point is, that’s not what happened in our room because Larry and Kevin were involved in this AI-enhanced live translation mode, and the other four were freed. So they were able to have a free, wonderful, free-ranging conversation, and they were able to have that ability to connect in their way.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I love that example and how it’s not just about the personal interaction, but actually about the group dynamics, too. It shows you the work that’s involved in having a human translator, that someone has to mediate that process for you, and that’s actually work on them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I hadn’t really thought about that aspect of it, which is kinda cool. If you have a human interpreter, there might be things that you want to talk about that you don’t want them to hear about. And I think this is a common situation a little bit with, we know sometimes when immigrants come to a country where they don’t speak the kind of dominant language, that often their kids become interpreters, as they’re dealing with banks and as they’re dealing with medical providers. But, like if you think about, do you want your daughters to know all of your personal information that you might talk about with a doctor? No, right? And so just getting to choose who hears what information, yeah, that’s going to be really empowering.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it seems like in this example, depending on who is going to have to play that role of translator, is he going to feel comfortable, showering all this attention on perhaps his future daughter-in-law, for instance? If she’s the one translating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yes. Yeah. That would be really embarrassing. Though it may be a cool, slick move as well. She has to be like, “Oh, Daddy’s saying I’m so pretty,” and yeah, something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So already these tools are letting people connect with other people in new ways, really connect. But I didn’t invite Abby on this show just to marvel over what’s now possible with machine translation. Like I said, I have a lot of questions. Like, “Is that it? Are we humans all just done learning second, third, fourth languages because the machines can translate for us now? Or are there some parts of a conversation that a machine probably isn’t going to be able to translate for us, at least not anytime soon?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So a lot of people think of translation as just this simple process of taking words from one language and then mapping them one-to-one onto another language. But from a sociolinguist perspective, what else is language doing other than delivering that kind of information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> It’s doing so much, Jess. I love all the other things that language does. So one of the big things that I study and my field looks at is all the other information in the speech signal. So not just the content of the message but how you’re delivering it and all the other information that comes from that. So for example, anyone listening right now, you can probably hear that I was not born and raised in America.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ve got a New Zealand English accent. But people in New Zealand can probably also hear that I’ve lived in America for a while, that’s probably in my speech as well. You might be able to hear that you and I are friends and friendly. We’re both trying to be friendly. We’re both trying to sound smart right now, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe you can tell that this is a little bit more awkward formality for us than usual conversation with wine. So just your identity, and sometimes that stuff you’re trying to mark, like sometimes you’re like, “I want to sound really professional in this moment. I want to sound really from this place. I want to really lean into my higher roots or my New Zealand roots or something.” But then other times, there’s information there that you just can’t even control, right? Like, I’m not always necessarily trying to be like, “I’m a woman,” but most people will hear my voice and be like, “You’re a woman.” Or I’m not always trying to say I’m from New Zealand, but my vowels are always saying I’m from New Zealand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. So whether you want to or not, you are communicating a whole lot about who you are as a person and maybe how you’re feeling in that moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Abby says that any tool focused primarily on the words we are saying will always miss a lot of the social information that language communicates, information that a human interpreter who can pick up on body language or emotion could probably make better sense of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And even at the word level there’s a lot of ways for a translation to be incomplete. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>I mean, some things like if I say boot or trunk of a car, that’s a difference between British and American English. But I’m thinking even things more like if I say groovy or neato or amazeballs or, we have lots of ways to express that something’s cool, and how another language does that, they might miss that I’m being playful, or they might miss that I’m outdated in my slang. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>How do you translate that someone is saying amazeballs unironically because they’re really that excited? How do you translate that someone is saying groovy ironically because they’re making fun of themselves for being five decades late to the party? And that’s not all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>The other thing that language has built into it, both in vocal tone and stuff, but then also in word choice and sometimes actually in your grammar, is your relationship to other people. It’s not just me expressing my identity. I can also be trying to say something about the relationship that you and I have or the relationship I’d like us to have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So anything that is doing this translation, whether it’s a human or whether it’s a machine, they’re having to make some choices, and the nature of those choices are not going to be obvious to somebody who’s participating and only able to understand one side of that conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and most of the time, again, this… The technology’s kind of amazing. Being able to talk with anyone who you couldn’t talk to before, if the alternative is not being able to talk to them at all, that’s pretty amazing. But there are going to be times where if you don’t know the situation, it might be doing some really impolite things, and you might not know, right? Like the translation system might have decided to use an informal tone here, and you don’t realize it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And to some extent, that’s going to be true of a human translator but to a much lesser extent if they are very culturally fluent with both languages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, I actually… Now I’m remembering I had a student who was Korean-American, and her parents had come over from Korea beforehand, so they were native Korean speakers, and I was learning Korean at the time. And it was graduation, and I was saying something to her dad, like I don’t know. I can’t remember what I was saying, but I was trying to say something polite. And she’s like, “Um,” kind of to her dad like, “Uh, she’s just learning.” And I was like… I assumed that I’d used some impolite grammatical forms or something, right? I’d done some… She knew that I was kind of doing something inappropriate that I didn’t know that I was doing and was just smoothing over the situation because yeah, I think one of the things that humans do is that we’re very socially savvy. We’re always looking at, contextually, what’s contextually appropriate language. And if you’re a bilingual person, which a human translator has to be, right, to some degree to be able to do this translation work, presumably they’re going to know the social navigation pathways of both languages. And so they’re going to be able to pull on that information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Is there a danger that if we do move toward this world of relatively frictionless live translation, we could become overconfident that we’ve understood everything?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s… I think that’s almost part of it. It’s almost like the same problem that people are having right now with, you know, you hand in an essay that AI produced, and it looks so good that you don’t know that the citations are made-up. It’s that sort of confidence that it got the answer right that you would have that same kind of problem with translation, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Given the sheer complexity of language and all the things it’s trying to do, maybe it shouldn’t be a big surprise that as incredible as these tools are, they still make mistakes. A \u003ca href=\"https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/live-voice-translation-is-the-ai-americans-want-most-ahead-of-email-drafting-and-meeting-notes-new-deepl-research-finds-302858925.html\">recent survey\u003c/a> found that about half of people who’ve used some kind of translation app, chat bot, or wearable find it clunky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My own personal experience is pretty hit or miss. When I visited Quebec City this summer, Airbnb automatically translated my text messages to my host into French, and then translated his responses back into English. It was so seamless that I barely noticed. But then, when I tried out a pair of smart glasses to have a spoken conversation with a Bulgarian scholar here at the Ryan Institute about his summer vacation, a topic slightly more nuanced than what is the entry code to the apartment, it was a little rough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At first, I had to repeat my question three times until the glasses finally heard me well enough to translate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Jess Love talking to Bulgarian Scholar]: \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>“All right, let’s try again. Okay. Okay. I was holding it too long. I heard a rumor that you are going to the Dolomites this summer to do some hiking.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Bulgarian Scholar Translation Audio]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>That’s exactly how we’re going with a large group of friends. It’s about 20 people, and I’m pretty excited since it’s raining here, but there are almost no mountains, and I very rarely get to see mountains.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hungarian Scholar: \u003c/strong>It’s somewhat accurate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> The glasses kept messing up. We managed to stumble through a basic conversation but only because my colleague knew English and could correct the mistakes. It was not frictionless. So at least with the tools we have today, it’s pretty clear to me that some tasks will still require human translators, even if a lot of others don’t, and Abby agreed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I think it’s the case that we’re always going to need human translators, because there are high-stakes situations, right? Like international negotiations, big business deals. But I also imagine a young person looking at a career path and still seeing, probably rightly so, that there’s going to be less path forward for them there. And I think about the medical world a bit. I think that’s often where there was a feeling that there would be a lot of interpreters was in the medical field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you do already see them starting to use these tools and these translation tools automatically. You would hope they would always have someone on staff still, like to do translations when things get really nuanced and stuff. But I do think if I was a young person looking, even though there still will be those jobs, I would wonder about them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I would wonder too. Some of the practical reasons for learning a language are going away. After all, not everyone is going to be involved in negotiating corporate mergers or making high-stakes medical decisions. For a lot of situations, good enough really is good enough. And AI’s getting better. Companies are already trying to deal with these issues by like collecting visual data or following people over time so the machines have access to previous conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s no guarantee that these tools will still be making the same kinds of mistakes in five years, or even two. And so, yeah, some people who would’ve learned another language probably will decide, “Eh, why bother?” But Abby doesn’t see a future where people just decide to stop learning other languages, no matter how good the machines get, because there are a bunch of reasons for learning a language that have nothing to do with the mere exchange of information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After the break, she makes her case. We’ll also hear why some very unexpected languages are actually experiencing a resurgence of new learners, apps be damned. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I’m going to Germany later this year. The big reason, one of the big reasons I wanted to go to Germany, apart from working with some great researchers, is that I wanted to get my German better. I have no need to get German better. This is not an important thing in my life. I will not speak it. I will never need it, but I want to be good at it, right? I want to be better at it. I like it. I enjoy it. It’s a puzzle. It’s a game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Abby’s not alone. A lot of people are learning languages they don’t have to learn for purely communicative reasons, like because they need a job or need to get around a city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Like people right now are learning Welsh, and people are learning Te Reo Māori, and these people can all speak English in Wales and in New Zealand, but they’re choosing to learn this language that they do not need for communication, so why are they choosing to learn this language? Because they have an identity connection to this language, right? And so its important to them, separate from how many other people they can talk to in this language, right? Like its kind of a way to connect to an identity, because I think people really do associate languages with identity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s so interesting. Is there a resurgence in people trying to learn these minority languages, even right now in 2026?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yes. There’s definitely a resurgence in people trying to learn these languages. But that’s been happening since the ’80s, ’90s, 2000s. But since I’ve been in the States for almost 20 years now, and when I go back to New Zealand, it is shocking to me the amount of Te Reo that is around now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And what is Te Reo [Māori]?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> It’s the language. Sorry. It’s Māori. Māori. Sorry. It’s the Māori language. It’s just called the language, so it’s Te Reo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, can you just give a little… ‘Cause most of our audience is not from New Zealand, so just give a little… What is this language, and why do you think that people are learning to speak it more in New Zealand?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so this was the first language, human language spoken in New Zealand by the Māori. And then waves of English settlers came, and the language was forbidden, like happens in many of these situations. There was both an incentive to learn English for economic reasons, but then there were also actual moves to ban the language in school. And so kids would get smacked and things if they were speaking it in playgrounds and stuff. And so there was a generation or two that kind of were native speakers of Māori that literally intentionally chose not to pass it on to their children because it had only caused grief for them, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there was this next generation that was “Wait, we’ve lost this kind of connection to our identity.” And so there’s been this really big resurgence. And this is happening before the technology that we’re talking about, but it’s happening because this has identity meaning to people. This is culturally significant to them. Quite correctly, they see it as something that was taken away from them by kind of outsiders, and then they are trying to correct that and connect to these roots. Which what’s really interesting in New Zealand is a ton of white people or Pākehā, like me, a ton of white people have been learning Māori as well, right? So it’s also becoming a symbol of your political and New Zealand identity as well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So because this language has more cultural significance than it does, a purely functional significance, do you see it as pretty protected or insulated from some of the challenges of machine translation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When I’m thinking about it, now that we’re talking about it, I do think that it would be unlikely that you would use a translation app. If you were talking to someone who was a native or near-native fluent speaker of Te Reo and you wanted to communicate with them, you would do it in English or you would learn Te Reo. Why would you use an app to talk to them in this language, stiltingly with pauses and slowly when you both can talk in English, right? They are not going to appreciate that. They’re not really going to be interested in that, and what would probably be more impressive was you stumbling through some beginner Te Reo, which at least showed that you were putting in some effort yourself, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Do you remember that Mamdani clip? Should I try to find it and play it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Abby wanted us to listen to this recent video released by Zohran Mamdani, the mayor of New York City. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>So there’s this clip you can find, it went kind of a little viral, a little while ago, and it’s Mamdani doing… the mayor of New York doing a piece to camera, and it’s kind of some political speech. I don’t know what he’s actually promoting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Zohran Mamdani speaking in Spanish]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so he is talking in Spanish and so he is trying to, you know, reach his Spanish Constituence. He does not speak Spanish, right? And so, there is this video of him and he is kind of like stumbling through Spanish and he takes it again and he’s getting corrected by AOC on his pronunciation. He keeps kind of forgetting things. And they’ve released this, right? And they think it’s not crazy that that happened but it’s very interesting to me that they released it because they are trying to emphasize that it wasn’t easy for him to speak Spanish and that he needed help speaking Spanish and he is not good at Spanish, but they knew that it would be charming and it is, right? Because it shows someone is trying to speak Spanish, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Zohran Mamdani speaking in Spanish]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They could have just released speeches with him in like fluent Spanish, or they could have had someone else who is a fluent Spanish speaker speaking on his behalf. In a little while, they could probably do videos where it looks like he is speaking Spanish, right? We’re kind of at that point of the technology now with video and audio that we could have something that sounds like him speaking in Spanish, looks like him speaking in Spanish. But they don’t do that, right? What they do is show someone who isn’t very good and who is trying, right? Part of what is really important to people is that you try to speak their language, right? And an app takes out that friction. It makes communication easier, but part of what language is signaling, too, when you use a language that is not a language that comes easy to you, is you’re signaling that you are trying, right? You are signaling that you are putting in some effort, that you don’t expect them to just understand you, and that you’re putting in some effort to be understood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, we’ve been dancing around this idea of the importance of friction, and I want to just ask you to spell it out. Why is friction important? What could friction signal? We’ve talked about belonging, we’ve talked about effort. What else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I mean, if I’m really just using an app to talk to you, right, I… And I’m not paying attention, I’m not really trying to do anything, I’m just trying to communicate with you, so I use an app, and it spits out whatever to talk to you, and I nod. You got the message, I got the message, I move on. Like, I haven’t really changed because of that interaction, right? So when you learn a language, to talk to someone, the effort of doing it, you are actually also changing yourself. So you are adding vocab, adding things that you can use in a new situation, adding things that you can use when you don’t have your phone around you, et cetera. So there’s just, literally you are changing a little bit, maybe in small ways. There is some evidence for regular bilinguals, like people who are regularly using multiple languages in their day-to-day, that they have better executive function than monolingual speakers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And by executive function, we’re talking about your ability to ignore irrelevant information and suppress responses that you might automatically make. And if you think about it, this makes a lot of sense why this would be tied to bilingualism, because you have a day where you are telling whatever language you’re not using, you’re saying, “Shut up. This isn’t about you.” So you’re ignoring anything else that’s irrelevant while you’re having these conversations. And from my understanding, those advantages get bigger as you age. So it’s essentially like you’re keeping your brain more active in this particular way. So obviously, all of those benefits, and just the fact that each time I stumble through something in German or Korean or today Māori, I am getting a little bit better, right? I’m learning a little bit more. That is this really big obvious thing that is being lost, is just that you are not having this growth. And it’s almost sad in some ways, because you had an opportunity, right? So let’s say you go to another country, you stay there for two months. You have this opportunity to do something, and you just spend all the time using these translation apps. You miss this opportunity to have this personal growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’s true. I went to Italy, and by the end of the trip, I was fully capable of asking where the bathroom was all by myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> In Italian?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Italian.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Wow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Don’t ask me to do it now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, boy. Try. Al bagno? Bagno? Bagno? I don’t want to talk about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Live translation tools are decent, and they’re going to get better. You can even imagine a version that works out most of the bugs. AI that does start picking up on body language and slang. Science fiction becoming reality. The universal translator, the Babel fish. But do we always want that? Throughout our conversation, as we talked about the importance of friction, it struck me that maybe today’s live translation tools, imperfect as they are, have their own charms, not despite the friction, but because of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I decided to play Abby another excerpt from our conversation with proud dad, Larry Berliner. While he and fellow dad Kevin were conversing on their ChatGPT app, they were speaking into the phone, which would generate a written translation, which the other one would read. Hardly seamless. But here, Larry talks about the conversation being so profound because of those seams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> This allowed us to speak in long paragraphs, like I’m doing right now, right? Shakespearean style, not a back and forth, but long paragraphs of ideas, and then it would translate, and we’d watch each other read it, which was exciting, and then the person would respond. And what ended up being magical was, first of all, we did it for a very long time.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What he chose to talk about was things that I don’t think he would ever have spoke about first if I was speaking his native language. Or wow, the extent of which is amazing. He talked about how he had met Sonya and the previous people he had been with at the time. He talked about his failures as a father. And just– it was immediately right to the bone.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m just struck by how he feels that conversation was facilitated by the fact that there was this level of friction, of literally having to read. Maybe the fact that you’re putting something into print and then somebody is going to read it makes you less likely to just waste that time to say, “Well, what do you think of the weather?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, that’s a really interesting idea, and it kinda makes sense. What it makes me think, though, is that there was this feeling that this was temporary, right? That this was not going to be the regular state of affairs. It’s almost like deathbed conversation. It feels like a little bit like what it sounded like to me. Just “I need you to, here are some really big things on my mind and my heart that I just really want you to know now that we’ve got this opportunity.” It is interesting, though, to think about, what if you never get there with someone who speaks your own language because you’ve always got the dance of we can speak so easily to each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and it was the artificiality of their own communication that led to something much deeper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I love that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So am I going to encourage my eight-year-old to learn Spanish? Yes, absolutely. There’s so much we can’t know about AI and where it’s headed, but even if some reasons for learning another language go away, others won’t, or could even grow in importance. And in honor of our topic this week, we’ve machine translated our credits into ‘Klingon and back’, because why not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here we go. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Klingon words] \u003c/em>I am Jess of the clan Love. \u003cem>[Klingon words] \u003c/em>At the Northwestern University Citadel of Knowledge, inside the Kellogg School of Management, Life, Automated is an honorable battle quest of the Ryan Institute on Complexity. KQED hurls our battle transmissions across the void to conquer the airwaves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jesse Dukes sliced the captured sounds into submission. Stephen Jackson forged the battle hymns and struck the war drums. The machinery masters, Will Feeney and George Christensen, trapped the vocal cries of the interrogation inside the sound cage. Ananya Mallapragada commanded the proclamations of our glory and subjugated the civilian chatter web.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Producer: Jesse Dukes\u003cbr>Music: Steven Jackson\u003cbr>Recording: George Christensen, Will Feeney\u003cbr>Promotional help from Ananya Mallapragada\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Editorial guidance from Laura Pavin\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Larry Berliner and Georgi Demirev for their help testing out live translation tools\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I think it’s fair to say that over the past five years, we’ve been bombarded by all the new things AI can suddenly do. It’s solving these long unsolved math theorems, generating songs that rack up millions of listens, and even colluding with other AIs to break into servers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I think it’s fair to say that over the past five years, we’ve been bombarded by all the new things AI can suddenly do. It’s solving these long unsolved math theorems, generating songs that rack up millions of listens, and even colluding with other AIs to break into servers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s so much crazy stuff happening, that a lot of other advances that would’ve seemed mind-blowing to us 10, 15 years ago feel almost pedestrian in comparison. I’d put real-time language translation down as one of these advances. Chat bots and translation apps now draw from a range of different kinds of AI to offer live translation for tons of different languages.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s so much crazy stuff happening, that a lot of other advances that would’ve seemed mind-blowing to us 10, 15 years ago feel almost pedestrian in comparison. I’d put real-time language translation down as one of these advances. Chat bots and translation apps now draw from a range of different kinds of AI to offer live translation for tons of different languages.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can hear something in a language you don’t know, like Korean. You can use your phone to translate that speech into a language you do know, like English. “Which way is the restroom?” Offer your response in English. “Oh, yeah, it’s down this hallway here, second door on the right side.” And then it will speak your response aloud in Korean.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can hear something in a language you don’t know, like Korean. You can use your phone to translate that speech into a language you do know, like English. “Which way is the restroom?” Offer your response in English. “Oh, yeah, it’s down this hallway here, second door on the right side.” And then it will speak your response aloud in Korean.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can do this today. People already are doing this. What’s more, a lot of tech companies are developing wearables, think smart glasses, smart earbuds, to make live translation more frictionless. No more fumbling for your phone. This is literally straight out of science fiction. Star Trek’s universal translator, Dr.Who’s TARDIS translation matrix, and from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, the Babel Fish. For me, this raises some big questions. What do these live translation tools really let us do that we couldn’t do before? Will they ever fully replace human translators? And should my eight-year-old still be taking Spanish classes in school?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can do this today. People already are doing this. What’s more, a lot of tech companies are developing wearables, think smart glasses, smart earbuds, to make live translation more frictionless. No more fumbling for your phone. This is literally straight out of science fiction. Star Trek’s universal translator, Dr.Who’s TARDIS translation matrix, and from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, the Babel Fish. For me, this raises some big questions. What do these live translation tools really let us do that we couldn’t do before? Will they ever fully replace human translators? And should my eight-year-old still be taking Spanish classes in school?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today’s guest is Abby Walker, a sociolinguist at Virginia Tech, where she’s co-director of the Speech Lab. She’s also a longtime friend from my grad school days. I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today’s guest is Abby Walker, a sociolinguist at Virginia Tech, where she’s co-director of the Speech Lab. She’s also a longtime friend from my grad school days. I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Welcome Abby Walker to Life Automated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Welcome Abby Walker to Life Automated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me, Jess. I’m so excited to be here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me, Jess. I’m so excited to be here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So there’s a clip I want to play for you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So there’s a clip I want to play for you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>I wanted Abby and I to listen to some tape we recorded from a person who recently used one of these live translation tools. This person’s name is Larry Berliner. Larry’s son was in love, and this was Larry’s first time meeting the girlfriend’s parents.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>I wanted Abby and I to listen to some tape we recorded from a person who recently used one of these live translation tools. This person’s name is Larry Berliner. Larry’s son was in love, and this was Larry’s first time meeting the girlfriend’s parents.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s the catch. Larry, father of the boyfriend, spoke English but not Chinese. And Kevin, father of the girlfriend, spoke Chinese but not English. So they used a ChatGPT app on one of their cell phones to translate between them. In this first clip, Larry’s just remarking about what this tool did for the two of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here’s the catch. Larry, father of the boyfriend, spoke English but not Chinese. And Kevin, father of the girlfriend, spoke Chinese but not English. So they used a ChatGPT app on one of their cell phones to translate between them. In this first clip, Larry’s just remarking about what this tool did for the two of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> If not for this, I wouldn’t have got to know Kevin at all. I was able to connect with Kevin, meet Kevin, talk to Kevin seriously about myself, about my business, about my thoughts of his own daughter, what his daughter has transformed in my son. So much, right? There was so much I was able to say to him.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> If not for this, I wouldn’t have got to know Kevin at all. I was able to connect with Kevin, meet Kevin, talk to Kevin seriously about myself, about my business, about my thoughts of his own daughter, what his daughter has transformed in my son. So much, right? There was so much I was able to say to him.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> And here’s another part of that conversation, this time with Larry talking about how having the tool helped everyone else in the room, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> And here’s another part of that conversation, this time with Larry talking about how having the tool helped everyone else in the room, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> We have all been there, where there’s the individual who’s the translator amongst three people or among five people, sometimes eight. And two things happen. One is that translator has to work so hard. You can see how much energy they’re having to invest in translating for everybody and make the room successful. The other thing you see is how slow everything goes. The point is, that’s not what happened in our room because Larry and Kevin were involved in this AI-enhanced live translation mode, and the other four were freed. So they were able to have a free, wonderful, free-ranging conversation, and they were able to have that ability to connect in their way.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> We have all been there, where there’s the individual who’s the translator amongst three people or among five people, sometimes eight. And two things happen. One is that translator has to work so hard. You can see how much energy they’re having to invest in translating for everybody and make the room successful. The other thing you see is how slow everything goes. The point is, that’s not what happened in our room because Larry and Kevin were involved in this AI-enhanced live translation mode, and the other four were freed. So they were able to have a free, wonderful, free-ranging conversation, and they were able to have that ability to connect in their way.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I love that example and how it’s not just about the personal interaction, but actually about the group dynamics, too. It shows you the work that’s involved in having a human translator, that someone has to mediate that process for you, and that’s actually work on them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I love that example and how it’s not just about the personal interaction, but actually about the group dynamics, too. It shows you the work that’s involved in having a human translator, that someone has to mediate that process for you, and that’s actually work on them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I hadn’t really thought about that aspect of it, which is kinda cool. If you have a human interpreter, there might be things that you want to talk about that you don’t want them to hear about. And I think this is a common situation a little bit with, we know sometimes when immigrants come to a country where they don’t speak the kind of dominant language, that often their kids become interpreters, as they’re dealing with banks and as they’re dealing with medical providers. But, like if you think about, do you want your daughters to know all of your personal information that you might talk about with a doctor? No, right? And so just getting to choose who hears what information, yeah, that’s going to be really empowering.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I hadn’t really thought about that aspect of it, which is kinda cool. If you have a human interpreter, there might be things that you want to talk about that you don’t want them to hear about. And I think this is a common situation a little bit with, we know sometimes when immigrants come to a country where they don’t speak the kind of dominant language, that often their kids become interpreters, as they’re dealing with banks and as they’re dealing with medical providers. But, like if you think about, do you want your daughters to know all of your personal information that you might talk about with a doctor? No, right? And so just getting to choose who hears what information, yeah, that’s going to be really empowering.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it seems like in this example, depending on who is going to have to play that role of translator, is he going to feel comfortable, showering all this attention on perhaps his future daughter-in-law, for instance? If she’s the one translating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it seems like in this example, depending on who is going to have to play that role of translator, is he going to feel comfortable, showering all this attention on perhaps his future daughter-in-law, for instance? If she’s the one translating.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yes. Yeah. That would be really embarrassing. Though it may be a cool, slick move as well. She has to be like, “Oh, Daddy’s saying I’m so pretty,” and yeah, something like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yes. Yeah. That would be really embarrassing. Though it may be a cool, slick move as well. She has to be like, “Oh, Daddy’s saying I’m so pretty,” and yeah, something like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So already these tools are letting people connect with other people in new ways, really connect. But I didn’t invite Abby on this show just to marvel over what’s now possible with machine translation. Like I said, I have a lot of questions. Like, “Is that it? Are we humans all just done learning second, third, fourth languages because the machines can translate for us now? Or are there some parts of a conversation that a machine probably isn’t going to be able to translate for us, at least not anytime soon?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So already these tools are letting people connect with other people in new ways, really connect. But I didn’t invite Abby on this show just to marvel over what’s now possible with machine translation. Like I said, I have a lot of questions. Like, “Is that it? Are we humans all just done learning second, third, fourth languages because the machines can translate for us now? Or are there some parts of a conversation that a machine probably isn’t going to be able to translate for us, at least not anytime soon?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So a lot of people think of translation as just this simple process of taking words from one language and then mapping them one-to-one onto another language. But from a sociolinguist perspective, what else is language doing other than delivering that kind of information?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So a lot of people think of translation as just this simple process of taking words from one language and then mapping them one-to-one onto another language. But from a sociolinguist perspective, what else is language doing other than delivering that kind of information?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> It’s doing so much, Jess. I love all the other things that language does. So one of the big things that I study and my field looks at is all the other information in the speech signal. So not just the content of the message but how you’re delivering it and all the other information that comes from that. So for example, anyone listening right now, you can probably hear that I was not born and raised in America.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> It’s doing so much, Jess. I love all the other things that language does. So one of the big things that I study and my field looks at is all the other information in the speech signal. So not just the content of the message but how you’re delivering it and all the other information that comes from that. So for example, anyone listening right now, you can probably hear that I was not born and raised in America.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’ve got a New Zealand English accent. But people in New Zealand can probably also hear that I’ve lived in America for a while, that’s probably in my speech as well. You might be able to hear that you and I are friends and friendly. We’re both trying to be friendly. We’re both trying to sound smart right now, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’ve got a New Zealand English accent. But people in New Zealand can probably also hear that I’ve lived in America for a while, that’s probably in my speech as well. You might be able to hear that you and I are friends and friendly. We’re both trying to be friendly. We’re both trying to sound smart right now, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Maybe you can tell that this is a little bit more awkward formality for us than usual conversation with wine. So just your identity, and sometimes that stuff you’re trying to mark, like sometimes you’re like, “I want to sound really professional in this moment. I want to sound really from this place. I want to really lean into my higher roots or my New Zealand roots or something.” But then other times, there’s information there that you just can’t even control, right? Like, I’m not always necessarily trying to be like, “I’m a woman,” but most people will hear my voice and be like, “You’re a woman.” Or I’m not always trying to say I’m from New Zealand, but my vowels are always saying I’m from New Zealand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Maybe you can tell that this is a little bit more awkward formality for us than usual conversation with wine. So just your identity, and sometimes that stuff you’re trying to mark, like sometimes you’re like, “I want to sound really professional in this moment. I want to sound really from this place. I want to really lean into my higher roots or my New Zealand roots or something.” But then other times, there’s information there that you just can’t even control, right? Like, I’m not always necessarily trying to be like, “I’m a woman,” but most people will hear my voice and be like, “You’re a woman.” Or I’m not always trying to say I’m from New Zealand, but my vowels are always saying I’m from New Zealand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. So whether you want to or not, you are communicating a whole lot about who you are as a person and maybe how you’re feeling in that moment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. So whether you want to or not, you are communicating a whole lot about who you are as a person and maybe how you’re feeling in that moment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Abby says that any tool focused primarily on the words we are saying will always miss a lot of the social information that language communicates, information that a human interpreter who can pick up on body language or emotion could probably make better sense of.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Abby says that any tool focused primarily on the words we are saying will always miss a lot of the social information that language communicates, information that a human interpreter who can pick up on body language or emotion could probably make better sense of.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And even at the word level there’s a lot of ways for a translation to be incomplete. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And even at the word level there’s a lot of ways for a translation to be incomplete. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>I mean, some things like if I say boot or trunk of a car, that’s a difference between British and American English. But I’m thinking even things more like if I say groovy or neato or amazeballs or, we have lots of ways to express that something’s cool, and how another language does that, they might miss that I’m being playful, or they might miss that I’m outdated in my slang. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>I mean, some things like if I say boot or trunk of a car, that’s a difference between British and American English. But I’m thinking even things more like if I say groovy or neato or amazeballs or, we have lots of ways to express that something’s cool, and how another language does that, they might miss that I’m being playful, or they might miss that I’m outdated in my slang. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>How do you translate that someone is saying amazeballs unironically because they’re really that excited? How do you translate that someone is saying groovy ironically because they’re making fun of themselves for being five decades late to the party? And that’s not all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>How do you translate that someone is saying amazeballs unironically because they’re really that excited? How do you translate that someone is saying groovy ironically because they’re making fun of themselves for being five decades late to the party? And that’s not all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>The other thing that language has built into it, both in vocal tone and stuff, but then also in word choice and sometimes actually in your grammar, is your relationship to other people. It’s not just me expressing my identity. I can also be trying to say something about the relationship that you and I have or the relationship I’d like us to have. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>The other thing that language has built into it, both in vocal tone and stuff, but then also in word choice and sometimes actually in your grammar, is your relationship to other people. It’s not just me expressing my identity. I can also be trying to say something about the relationship that you and I have or the relationship I’d like us to have. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So anything that is doing this translation, whether it’s a human or whether it’s a machine, they’re having to make some choices, and the nature of those choices are not going to be obvious to somebody who’s participating and only able to understand one side of that conversation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So anything that is doing this translation, whether it’s a human or whether it’s a machine, they’re having to make some choices, and the nature of those choices are not going to be obvious to somebody who’s participating and only able to understand one side of that conversation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and most of the time, again, this… The technology’s kind of amazing. Being able to talk with anyone who you couldn’t talk to before, if the alternative is not being able to talk to them at all, that’s pretty amazing. But there are going to be times where if you don’t know the situation, it might be doing some really impolite things, and you might not know, right? Like the translation system might have decided to use an informal tone here, and you don’t realize it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and most of the time, again, this… The technology’s kind of amazing. Being able to talk with anyone who you couldn’t talk to before, if the alternative is not being able to talk to them at all, that’s pretty amazing. But there are going to be times where if you don’t know the situation, it might be doing some really impolite things, and you might not know, right? Like the translation system might have decided to use an informal tone here, and you don’t realize it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And to some extent, that’s going to be true of a human translator but to a much lesser extent if they are very culturally fluent with both languages.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And to some extent, that’s going to be true of a human translator but to a much lesser extent if they are very culturally fluent with both languages.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, I actually… Now I’m remembering I had a student who was Korean-American, and her parents had come over from Korea beforehand, so they were native Korean speakers, and I was learning Korean at the time. And it was graduation, and I was saying something to her dad, like I don’t know. I can’t remember what I was saying, but I was trying to say something polite. And she’s like, “Um,” kind of to her dad like, “Uh, she’s just learning.” And I was like… I assumed that I’d used some impolite grammatical forms or something, right? I’d done some… She knew that I was kind of doing something inappropriate that I didn’t know that I was doing and was just smoothing over the situation because yeah, I think one of the things that humans do is that we’re very socially savvy. We’re always looking at, contextually, what’s contextually appropriate language. And if you’re a bilingual person, which a human translator has to be, right, to some degree to be able to do this translation work, presumably they’re going to know the social navigation pathways of both languages. And so they’re going to be able to pull on that information.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, I actually… Now I’m remembering I had a student who was Korean-American, and her parents had come over from Korea beforehand, so they were native Korean speakers, and I was learning Korean at the time. And it was graduation, and I was saying something to her dad, like I don’t know. I can’t remember what I was saying, but I was trying to say something polite. And she’s like, “Um,” kind of to her dad like, “Uh, she’s just learning.” And I was like… I assumed that I’d used some impolite grammatical forms or something, right? I’d done some… She knew that I was kind of doing something inappropriate that I didn’t know that I was doing and was just smoothing over the situation because yeah, I think one of the things that humans do is that we’re very socially savvy. We’re always looking at, contextually, what’s contextually appropriate language. And if you’re a bilingual person, which a human translator has to be, right, to some degree to be able to do this translation work, presumably they’re going to know the social navigation pathways of both languages. And so they’re going to be able to pull on that information.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Is there a danger that if we do move toward this world of relatively frictionless live translation, we could become overconfident that we’ve understood everything?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s… I think that’s almost part of it. It’s almost like the same problem that people are having right now with, you know, you hand in an essay that AI produced, and it looks so good that you don’t know that the citations are made-up. It’s that sort of confidence that it got the answer right that you would have that same kind of problem with translation, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s… I think that’s almost part of it. It’s almost like the same problem that people are having right now with, you know, you hand in an essay that AI produced, and it looks so good that you don’t know that the citations are made-up. It’s that sort of confidence that it got the answer right that you would have that same kind of problem with translation, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Given the sheer complexity of language and all the things it’s trying to do, maybe it shouldn’t be a big surprise that as incredible as these tools are, they still make mistakes. A \u003ca href=\"https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/live-voice-translation-is-the-ai-americans-want-most-ahead-of-email-drafting-and-meeting-notes-new-deepl-research-finds-302858925.html\">recent survey\u003c/a> found that about half of people who’ve used some kind of translation app, chat bot, or wearable find it clunky.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Given the sheer complexity of language and all the things it’s trying to do, maybe it shouldn’t be a big surprise that as incredible as these tools are, they still make mistakes. A \u003ca href=\"https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/live-voice-translation-is-the-ai-americans-want-most-ahead-of-email-drafting-and-meeting-notes-new-deepl-research-finds-302858925.html\">recent survey\u003c/a> found that about half of people who’ve used some kind of translation app, chat bot, or wearable find it clunky.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My own personal experience is pretty hit or miss. When I visited Quebec City this summer, Airbnb automatically translated my text messages to my host into French, and then translated his responses back into English. It was so seamless that I barely noticed. But then, when I tried out a pair of smart glasses to have a spoken conversation with a Bulgarian scholar here at the Ryan Institute about his summer vacation, a topic slightly more nuanced than what is the entry code to the apartment, it was a little rough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>My own personal experience is pretty hit or miss. When I visited Quebec City this summer, Airbnb automatically translated my text messages to my host into French, and then translated his responses back into English. It was so seamless that I barely noticed. But then, when I tried out a pair of smart glasses to have a spoken conversation with a Bulgarian scholar here at the Ryan Institute about his summer vacation, a topic slightly more nuanced than what is the entry code to the apartment, it was a little rough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At first, I had to repeat my question three times until the glasses finally heard me well enough to translate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At first, I had to repeat my question three times until the glasses finally heard me well enough to translate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Jess Love talking to Bulgarian Scholar]: \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>“All right, let’s try again. Okay. Okay. I was holding it too long. I heard a rumor that you are going to the Dolomites this summer to do some hiking.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Jess Love talking to Bulgarian Scholar]: \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>“All right, let’s try again. Okay. Okay. I was holding it too long. I heard a rumor that you are going to the Dolomites this summer to do some hiking.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Bulgarian Scholar Translation Audio]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>That’s exactly how we’re going with a large group of friends. It’s about 20 people, and I’m pretty excited since it’s raining here, but there are almost no mountains, and I very rarely get to see mountains.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Bulgarian Scholar Translation Audio]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>That’s exactly how we’re going with a large group of friends. It’s about 20 people, and I’m pretty excited since it’s raining here, but there are almost no mountains, and I very rarely get to see mountains.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hungarian Scholar: \u003c/strong>It’s somewhat accurate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hungarian Scholar: \u003c/strong>It’s somewhat accurate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> The glasses kept messing up. We managed to stumble through a basic conversation but only because my colleague knew English and could correct the mistakes. It was not frictionless. So at least with the tools we have today, it’s pretty clear to me that some tasks will still require human translators, even if a lot of others don’t, and Abby agreed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> The glasses kept messing up. We managed to stumble through a basic conversation but only because my colleague knew English and could correct the mistakes. It was not frictionless. So at least with the tools we have today, it’s pretty clear to me that some tasks will still require human translators, even if a lot of others don’t, and Abby agreed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I think it’s the case that we’re always going to need human translators, because there are high-stakes situations, right? Like international negotiations, big business deals. But I also imagine a young person looking at a career path and still seeing, probably rightly so, that there’s going to be less path forward for them there. And I think about the medical world a bit. I think that’s often where there was a feeling that there would be a lot of interpreters was in the medical field.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I think it’s the case that we’re always going to need human translators, because there are high-stakes situations, right? Like international negotiations, big business deals. But I also imagine a young person looking at a career path and still seeing, probably rightly so, that there’s going to be less path forward for them there. And I think about the medical world a bit. I think that’s often where there was a feeling that there would be a lot of interpreters was in the medical field.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you do already see them starting to use these tools and these translation tools automatically. You would hope they would always have someone on staff still, like to do translations when things get really nuanced and stuff. But I do think if I was a young person looking, even though there still will be those jobs, I would wonder about them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And you do already see them starting to use these tools and these translation tools automatically. You would hope they would always have someone on staff still, like to do translations when things get really nuanced and stuff. But I do think if I was a young person looking, even though there still will be those jobs, I would wonder about them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I would wonder too. Some of the practical reasons for learning a language are going away. After all, not everyone is going to be involved in negotiating corporate mergers or making high-stakes medical decisions. For a lot of situations, good enough really is good enough. And AI’s getting better. Companies are already trying to deal with these issues by like collecting visual data or following people over time so the machines have access to previous conversations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I would wonder too. Some of the practical reasons for learning a language are going away. After all, not everyone is going to be involved in negotiating corporate mergers or making high-stakes medical decisions. For a lot of situations, good enough really is good enough. And AI’s getting better. Companies are already trying to deal with these issues by like collecting visual data or following people over time so the machines have access to previous conversations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s no guarantee that these tools will still be making the same kinds of mistakes in five years, or even two. And so, yeah, some people who would’ve learned another language probably will decide, “Eh, why bother?” But Abby doesn’t see a future where people just decide to stop learning other languages, no matter how good the machines get, because there are a bunch of reasons for learning a language that have nothing to do with the mere exchange of information.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s no guarantee that these tools will still be making the same kinds of mistakes in five years, or even two. And so, yeah, some people who would’ve learned another language probably will decide, “Eh, why bother?” But Abby doesn’t see a future where people just decide to stop learning other languages, no matter how good the machines get, because there are a bunch of reasons for learning a language that have nothing to do with the mere exchange of information.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After the break, she makes her case. We’ll also hear why some very unexpected languages are actually experiencing a resurgence of new learners, apps be damned. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>After the break, she makes her case. We’ll also hear why some very unexpected languages are actually experiencing a resurgence of new learners, apps be damned. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I’m going to Germany later this year. The big reason, one of the big reasons I wanted to go to Germany, apart from working with some great researchers, is that I wanted to get my German better. I have no need to get German better. This is not an important thing in my life. I will not speak it. I will never need it, but I want to be good at it, right? I want to be better at it. I like it. I enjoy it. It’s a puzzle. It’s a game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I’m going to Germany later this year. The big reason, one of the big reasons I wanted to go to Germany, apart from working with some great researchers, is that I wanted to get my German better. I have no need to get German better. This is not an important thing in my life. I will not speak it. I will never need it, but I want to be good at it, right? I want to be better at it. I like it. I enjoy it. It’s a puzzle. It’s a game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Abby’s not alone. A lot of people are learning languages they don’t have to learn for purely communicative reasons, like because they need a job or need to get around a city.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Abby’s not alone. A lot of people are learning languages they don’t have to learn for purely communicative reasons, like because they need a job or need to get around a city.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Like people right now are learning Welsh, and people are learning Te Reo Māori, and these people can all speak English in Wales and in New Zealand, but they’re choosing to learn this language that they do not need for communication, so why are they choosing to learn this language? Because they have an identity connection to this language, right? And so its important to them, separate from how many other people they can talk to in this language, right? Like its kind of a way to connect to an identity, because I think people really do associate languages with identity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Like people right now are learning Welsh, and people are learning Te Reo Māori, and these people can all speak English in Wales and in New Zealand, but they’re choosing to learn this language that they do not need for communication, so why are they choosing to learn this language? Because they have an identity connection to this language, right? And so its important to them, separate from how many other people they can talk to in this language, right? Like its kind of a way to connect to an identity, because I think people really do associate languages with identity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s so interesting. Is there a resurgence in people trying to learn these minority languages, even right now in 2026?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s so interesting. Is there a resurgence in people trying to learn these minority languages, even right now in 2026?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yes. There’s definitely a resurgence in people trying to learn these languages. But that’s been happening since the ’80s, ’90s, 2000s. But since I’ve been in the States for almost 20 years now, and when I go back to New Zealand, it is shocking to me the amount of Te Reo that is around now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yes. There’s definitely a resurgence in people trying to learn these languages. But that’s been happening since the ’80s, ’90s, 2000s. But since I’ve been in the States for almost 20 years now, and when I go back to New Zealand, it is shocking to me the amount of Te Reo that is around now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And what is Te Reo [Māori]?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And what is Te Reo [Māori]?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> It’s the language. Sorry. It’s Māori. Māori. Sorry. It’s the Māori language. It’s just called the language, so it’s Te Reo.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> It’s the language. Sorry. It’s Māori. Māori. Sorry. It’s the Māori language. It’s just called the language, so it’s Te Reo.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, can you just give a little… ‘Cause most of our audience is not from New Zealand, so just give a little… What is this language, and why do you think that people are learning to speak it more in New Zealand?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, can you just give a little… ‘Cause most of our audience is not from New Zealand, so just give a little… What is this language, and why do you think that people are learning to speak it more in New Zealand?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so this was the first language, human language spoken in New Zealand by the Māori. And then waves of English settlers came, and the language was forbidden, like happens in many of these situations. There was both an incentive to learn English for economic reasons, but then there were also actual moves to ban the language in school. And so kids would get smacked and things if they were speaking it in playgrounds and stuff. And so there was a generation or two that kind of were native speakers of Māori that literally intentionally chose not to pass it on to their children because it had only caused grief for them, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so this was the first language, human language spoken in New Zealand by the Māori. And then waves of English settlers came, and the language was forbidden, like happens in many of these situations. There was both an incentive to learn English for economic reasons, but then there were also actual moves to ban the language in school. And so kids would get smacked and things if they were speaking it in playgrounds and stuff. And so there was a generation or two that kind of were native speakers of Māori that literally intentionally chose not to pass it on to their children because it had only caused grief for them, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then there was this next generation that was “Wait, we’ve lost this kind of connection to our identity.” And so there’s been this really big resurgence. And this is happening before the technology that we’re talking about, but it’s happening because this has identity meaning to people. This is culturally significant to them. Quite correctly, they see it as something that was taken away from them by kind of outsiders, and then they are trying to correct that and connect to these roots. Which what’s really interesting in New Zealand is a ton of white people or Pākehā, like me, a ton of white people have been learning Māori as well, right? So it’s also becoming a symbol of your political and New Zealand identity as well. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then there was this next generation that was “Wait, we’ve lost this kind of connection to our identity.” And so there’s been this really big resurgence. And this is happening before the technology that we’re talking about, but it’s happening because this has identity meaning to people. This is culturally significant to them. Quite correctly, they see it as something that was taken away from them by kind of outsiders, and then they are trying to correct that and connect to these roots. Which what’s really interesting in New Zealand is a ton of white people or Pākehā, like me, a ton of white people have been learning Māori as well, right? So it’s also becoming a symbol of your political and New Zealand identity as well. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So because this language has more cultural significance than it does, a purely functional significance, do you see it as pretty protected or insulated from some of the challenges of machine translation?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So because this language has more cultural significance than it does, a purely functional significance, do you see it as pretty protected or insulated from some of the challenges of machine translation?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When I’m thinking about it, now that we’re talking about it, I do think that it would be unlikely that you would use a translation app. If you were talking to someone who was a native or near-native fluent speaker of Te Reo and you wanted to communicate with them, you would do it in English or you would learn Te Reo. Why would you use an app to talk to them in this language, stiltingly with pauses and slowly when you both can talk in English, right? They are not going to appreciate that. They’re not really going to be interested in that, and what would probably be more impressive was you stumbling through some beginner Te Reo, which at least showed that you were putting in some effort yourself, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When I’m thinking about it, now that we’re talking about it, I do think that it would be unlikely that you would use a translation app. If you were talking to someone who was a native or near-native fluent speaker of Te Reo and you wanted to communicate with them, you would do it in English or you would learn Te Reo. Why would you use an app to talk to them in this language, stiltingly with pauses and slowly when you both can talk in English, right? They are not going to appreciate that. They’re not really going to be interested in that, and what would probably be more impressive was you stumbling through some beginner Te Reo, which at least showed that you were putting in some effort yourself, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Do you remember that Mamdani clip? Should I try to find it and play it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Do you remember that Mamdani clip? Should I try to find it and play it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Abby wanted us to listen to this recent video released by Zohran Mamdani, the mayor of New York City. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Abby wanted us to listen to this recent video released by Zohran Mamdani, the mayor of New York City. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>So there’s this clip you can find, it went kind of a little viral, a little while ago, and it’s Mamdani doing… the mayor of New York doing a piece to camera, and it’s kind of some political speech. I don’t know what he’s actually promoting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so he is talking in Spanish and so he is trying to, you know, reach his Spanish Constituence. He does not speak Spanish, right? And so, there is this video of him and he is kind of like stumbling through Spanish and he takes it again and he’s getting corrected by AOC on his pronunciation. He keeps kind of forgetting things. And they’ve released this, right? And they think it’s not crazy that that happened but it’s very interesting to me that they released it because they are trying to emphasize that it wasn’t easy for him to speak Spanish and that he needed help speaking Spanish and he is not good at Spanish, but they knew that it would be charming and it is, right? Because it shows someone is trying to speak Spanish, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so he is talking in Spanish and so he is trying to, you know, reach his Spanish Constituence. He does not speak Spanish, right? And so, there is this video of him and he is kind of like stumbling through Spanish and he takes it again and he’s getting corrected by AOC on his pronunciation. He keeps kind of forgetting things. And they’ve released this, right? And they think it’s not crazy that that happened but it’s very interesting to me that they released it because they are trying to emphasize that it wasn’t easy for him to speak Spanish and that he needed help speaking Spanish and he is not good at Spanish, but they knew that it would be charming and it is, right? Because it shows someone is trying to speak Spanish, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They could have just released speeches with him in like fluent Spanish, or they could have had someone else who is a fluent Spanish speaker speaking on his behalf. In a little while, they could probably do videos where it looks like he is speaking Spanish, right? We’re kind of at that point of the technology now with video and audio that we could have something that sounds like him speaking in Spanish, looks like him speaking in Spanish. But they don’t do that, right? What they do is show someone who isn’t very good and who is trying, right? Part of what is really important to people is that you try to speak their language, right? And an app takes out that friction. It makes communication easier, but part of what language is signaling, too, when you use a language that is not a language that comes easy to you, is you’re signaling that you are trying, right? You are signaling that you are putting in some effort, that you don’t expect them to just understand you, and that you’re putting in some effort to be understood.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They could have just released speeches with him in like fluent Spanish, or they could have had someone else who is a fluent Spanish speaker speaking on his behalf. In a little while, they could probably do videos where it looks like he is speaking Spanish, right? We’re kind of at that point of the technology now with video and audio that we could have something that sounds like him speaking in Spanish, looks like him speaking in Spanish. But they don’t do that, right? What they do is show someone who isn’t very good and who is trying, right? Part of what is really important to people is that you try to speak their language, right? And an app takes out that friction. It makes communication easier, but part of what language is signaling, too, when you use a language that is not a language that comes easy to you, is you’re signaling that you are trying, right? You are signaling that you are putting in some effort, that you don’t expect them to just understand you, and that you’re putting in some effort to be understood.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, we’ve been dancing around this idea of the importance of friction, and I want to just ask you to spell it out. Why is friction important? What could friction signal? We’ve talked about belonging, we’ve talked about effort. What else?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, we’ve been dancing around this idea of the importance of friction, and I want to just ask you to spell it out. Why is friction important? What could friction signal? We’ve talked about belonging, we’ve talked about effort. What else?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I mean, if I’m really just using an app to talk to you, right, I… And I’m not paying attention, I’m not really trying to do anything, I’m just trying to communicate with you, so I use an app, and it spits out whatever to talk to you, and I nod. You got the message, I got the message, I move on. Like, I haven’t really changed because of that interaction, right? So when you learn a language, to talk to someone, the effort of doing it, you are actually also changing yourself. So you are adding vocab, adding things that you can use in a new situation, adding things that you can use when you don’t have your phone around you, et cetera. So there’s just, literally you are changing a little bit, maybe in small ways. There is some evidence for regular bilinguals, like people who are regularly using multiple languages in their day-to-day, that they have better executive function than monolingual speakers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I mean, if I’m really just using an app to talk to you, right, I… And I’m not paying attention, I’m not really trying to do anything, I’m just trying to communicate with you, so I use an app, and it spits out whatever to talk to you, and I nod. You got the message, I got the message, I move on. Like, I haven’t really changed because of that interaction, right? So when you learn a language, to talk to someone, the effort of doing it, you are actually also changing yourself. So you are adding vocab, adding things that you can use in a new situation, adding things that you can use when you don’t have your phone around you, et cetera. So there’s just, literally you are changing a little bit, maybe in small ways. There is some evidence for regular bilinguals, like people who are regularly using multiple languages in their day-to-day, that they have better executive function than monolingual speakers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And by executive function, we’re talking about your ability to ignore irrelevant information and suppress responses that you might automatically make. And if you think about it, this makes a lot of sense why this would be tied to bilingualism, because you have a day where you are telling whatever language you’re not using, you’re saying, “Shut up. This isn’t about you.” So you’re ignoring anything else that’s irrelevant while you’re having these conversations. And from my understanding, those advantages get bigger as you age. So it’s essentially like you’re keeping your brain more active in this particular way. So obviously, all of those benefits, and just the fact that each time I stumble through something in German or Korean or today Māori, I am getting a little bit better, right? I’m learning a little bit more. That is this really big obvious thing that is being lost, is just that you are not having this growth. And it’s almost sad in some ways, because you had an opportunity, right? So let’s say you go to another country, you stay there for two months. You have this opportunity to do something, and you just spend all the time using these translation apps. You miss this opportunity to have this personal growth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And by executive function, we’re talking about your ability to ignore irrelevant information and suppress responses that you might automatically make. And if you think about it, this makes a lot of sense why this would be tied to bilingualism, because you have a day where you are telling whatever language you’re not using, you’re saying, “Shut up. This isn’t about you.” So you’re ignoring anything else that’s irrelevant while you’re having these conversations. And from my understanding, those advantages get bigger as you age. So it’s essentially like you’re keeping your brain more active in this particular way. So obviously, all of those benefits, and just the fact that each time I stumble through something in German or Korean or today Māori, I am getting a little bit better, right? I’m learning a little bit more. That is this really big obvious thing that is being lost, is just that you are not having this growth. And it’s almost sad in some ways, because you had an opportunity, right? So let’s say you go to another country, you stay there for two months. You have this opportunity to do something, and you just spend all the time using these translation apps. You miss this opportunity to have this personal growth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’s true. I went to Italy, and by the end of the trip, I was fully capable of asking where the bathroom was all by myself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’s true. I went to Italy, and by the end of the trip, I was fully capable of asking where the bathroom was all by myself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> In Italian?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Don’t ask me to do it now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, boy. Try. Al bagno? Bagno? Bagno? I don’t want to talk about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, boy. Try. Al bagno? Bagno? Bagno? I don’t want to talk about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Live translation tools are decent, and they’re going to get better. You can even imagine a version that works out most of the bugs. AI that does start picking up on body language and slang. Science fiction becoming reality. The universal translator, the Babel fish. But do we always want that? Throughout our conversation, as we talked about the importance of friction, it struck me that maybe today’s live translation tools, imperfect as they are, have their own charms, not despite the friction, but because of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Live translation tools are decent, and they’re going to get better. You can even imagine a version that works out most of the bugs. AI that does start picking up on body language and slang. Science fiction becoming reality. The universal translator, the Babel fish. But do we always want that? Throughout our conversation, as we talked about the importance of friction, it struck me that maybe today’s live translation tools, imperfect as they are, have their own charms, not despite the friction, but because of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I decided to play Abby another excerpt from our conversation with proud dad, Larry Berliner. While he and fellow dad Kevin were conversing on their ChatGPT app, they were speaking into the phone, which would generate a written translation, which the other one would read. Hardly seamless. But here, Larry talks about the conversation being so profound because of those seams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I decided to play Abby another excerpt from our conversation with proud dad, Larry Berliner. While he and fellow dad Kevin were conversing on their ChatGPT app, they were speaking into the phone, which would generate a written translation, which the other one would read. Hardly seamless. But here, Larry talks about the conversation being so profound because of those seams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> This allowed us to speak in long paragraphs, like I’m doing right now, right? Shakespearean style, not a back and forth, but long paragraphs of ideas, and then it would translate, and we’d watch each other read it, which was exciting, and then the person would respond. And what ended up being magical was, first of all, we did it for a very long time.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> This allowed us to speak in long paragraphs, like I’m doing right now, right? Shakespearean style, not a back and forth, but long paragraphs of ideas, and then it would translate, and we’d watch each other read it, which was exciting, and then the person would respond. And what ended up being magical was, first of all, we did it for a very long time.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What he chose to talk about was things that I don’t think he would ever have spoke about first if I was speaking his native language. Or wow, the extent of which is amazing. He talked about how he had met Sonya and the previous people he had been with at the time. He talked about his failures as a father. And just– it was immediately right to the bone.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What he chose to talk about was things that I don’t think he would ever have spoke about first if I was speaking his native language. Or wow, the extent of which is amazing. He talked about how he had met Sonya and the previous people he had been with at the time. He talked about his failures as a father. And just– it was immediately right to the bone.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m just struck by how he feels that conversation was facilitated by the fact that there was this level of friction, of literally having to read. Maybe the fact that you’re putting something into print and then somebody is going to read it makes you less likely to just waste that time to say, “Well, what do you think of the weather?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m just struck by how he feels that conversation was facilitated by the fact that there was this level of friction, of literally having to read. Maybe the fact that you’re putting something into print and then somebody is going to read it makes you less likely to just waste that time to say, “Well, what do you think of the weather?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, that’s a really interesting idea, and it kinda makes sense. What it makes me think, though, is that there was this feeling that this was temporary, right? That this was not going to be the regular state of affairs. It’s almost like deathbed conversation. It feels like a little bit like what it sounded like to me. Just “I need you to, here are some really big things on my mind and my heart that I just really want you to know now that we’ve got this opportunity.” It is interesting, though, to think about, what if you never get there with someone who speaks your own language because you’ve always got the dance of we can speak so easily to each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, that’s a really interesting idea, and it kinda makes sense. What it makes me think, though, is that there was this feeling that this was temporary, right? That this was not going to be the regular state of affairs. It’s almost like deathbed conversation. It feels like a little bit like what it sounded like to me. Just “I need you to, here are some really big things on my mind and my heart that I just really want you to know now that we’ve got this opportunity.” It is interesting, though, to think about, what if you never get there with someone who speaks your own language because you’ve always got the dance of we can speak so easily to each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and it was the artificiality of their own communication that led to something much deeper. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and it was the artificiality of their own communication that led to something much deeper. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I love that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So am I going to encourage my eight-year-old to learn Spanish? Yes, absolutely. There’s so much we can’t know about AI and where it’s headed, but even if some reasons for learning another language go away, others won’t, or could even grow in importance. And in honor of our topic this week, we’ve machine translated our credits into ‘Klingon and back’, because why not?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So am I going to encourage my eight-year-old to learn Spanish? Yes, absolutely. There’s so much we can’t know about AI and where it’s headed, but even if some reasons for learning another language go away, others won’t, or could even grow in importance. And in honor of our topic this week, we’ve machine translated our credits into ‘Klingon and back’, because why not?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Klingon words] \u003c/em>I am Jess of the clan Love. \u003cem>[Klingon words] \u003c/em>At the Northwestern University Citadel of Knowledge, inside the Kellogg School of Management, Life, Automated is an honorable battle quest of the Ryan Institute on Complexity. KQED hurls our battle transmissions across the void to conquer the airwaves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Klingon words] \u003c/em>I am Jess of the clan Love. \u003cem>[Klingon words] \u003c/em>At the Northwestern University Citadel of Knowledge, inside the Kellogg School of Management, Life, Automated is an honorable battle quest of the Ryan Institute on Complexity. KQED hurls our battle transmissions across the void to conquer the airwaves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jesse Dukes sliced the captured sounds into submission. Stephen Jackson forged the battle hymns and struck the war drums. The machinery masters, Will Feeney and George Christensen, trapped the vocal cries of the interrogation inside the sound cage. Ananya Mallapragada commanded the proclamations of our glory and subjugated the civilian chatter web.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Producer: Jesse Dukes\u003cbr>Music: Steven Jackson\u003cbr>Recording: George Christensen, Will Feeney\u003cbr>Promotional help from Ananya Mallapragada\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Editorial guidance from Laura Pavin\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Larry Berliner and Georgi Demirev for their help testing out live translation tools\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Will We Still Learn Languages When Machines Can Translate? (with Abby Walker) | KQED",
"description": "Live AI translation tools are making it easier to converse across languages without a human translator, a phrasebook, or years of study. So will we all just stop taking Spanish or Mandarin classes? Sociolinguist Abby Walker doesn’t think so. She shares the many reasons we learn new languages, some of which have little to do with functional communication at all. We also hear how one AI-assisted conversation brought two future in-laws together, why machine translation is still so darn buggy, and why some languages are attracting a resurgence of new learners even in the age of translation apps.",
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"socialDescription": "Live AI translation tools are making it easier to converse across languages without a human translator, a phrasebook, or years of study. So will we all just stop taking Spanish or Mandarin classes? Sociolinguist Abby Walker doesn’t think so. She shares the many reasons we learn new languages, some of which have little to do with functional communication at all. We also hear how one AI-assisted conversation brought two future in-laws together, why machine translation is still so darn buggy, and why some languages are attracting a resurgence of new learners even in the age of translation apps.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Live AI translation tools are making it easier to converse across languages without a human translator, a phrasebook, or years of study. So will we all just stop taking Spanish or Mandarin classes? Sociolinguist \u003ca href=\"https://liberalarts.vt.edu/departments-and-schools/department-of-english/faculty/abby-walker.html\">Abby Walker\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. She shares the many reasons we learn new languages, some of which have little to do with functional communication at all. We also hear how one AI-assisted conversation brought two future in-laws together, why machine translation is still so darn buggy, and why some languages are attracting a resurgence of new learners even in the age of translation apps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I think it’s fair to say that over the past five years, we’ve been bombarded by all the new things AI can suddenly do. It’s solving these long unsolved math theorems, generating songs that rack up millions of listens, and even colluding with other AIs to break into servers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s so much crazy stuff happening, that a lot of other advances that would’ve seemed mind-blowing to us 10, 15 years ago feel almost pedestrian in comparison. I’d put real-time language translation down as one of these advances. Chat bots and translation apps now draw from a range of different kinds of AI to offer live translation for tons of different languages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can hear something in a language you don’t know, like Korean. You can use your phone to translate that speech into a language you do know, like English. “Which way is the restroom?” Offer your response in English. “Oh, yeah, it’s down this hallway here, second door on the right side.” And then it will speak your response aloud in Korean.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can do this today. People already are doing this. What’s more, a lot of tech companies are developing wearables, think smart glasses, smart earbuds, to make live translation more frictionless. No more fumbling for your phone. This is literally straight out of science fiction. Star Trek’s universal translator, Dr.Who’s TARDIS translation matrix, and from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, the Babel Fish. For me, this raises some big questions. What do these live translation tools really let us do that we couldn’t do before? Will they ever fully replace human translators? And should my eight-year-old still be taking Spanish classes in school?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today’s guest is Abby Walker, a sociolinguist at Virginia Tech, where she’s co-director of the Speech Lab. She’s also a longtime friend from my grad school days. I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Welcome Abby Walker to Life Automated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me, Jess. I’m so excited to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So there’s a clip I want to play for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>I wanted Abby and I to listen to some tape we recorded from a person who recently used one of these live translation tools. This person’s name is Larry Berliner. Larry’s son was in love, and this was Larry’s first time meeting the girlfriend’s parents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s the catch. Larry, father of the boyfriend, spoke English but not Chinese. And Kevin, father of the girlfriend, spoke Chinese but not English. So they used a ChatGPT app on one of their cell phones to translate between them. In this first clip, Larry’s just remarking about what this tool did for the two of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> If not for this, I wouldn’t have got to know Kevin at all. I was able to connect with Kevin, meet Kevin, talk to Kevin seriously about myself, about my business, about my thoughts of his own daughter, what his daughter has transformed in my son. So much, right? There was so much I was able to say to him.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> And here’s another part of that conversation, this time with Larry talking about how having the tool helped everyone else in the room, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> We have all been there, where there’s the individual who’s the translator amongst three people or among five people, sometimes eight. And two things happen. One is that translator has to work so hard. You can see how much energy they’re having to invest in translating for everybody and make the room successful. The other thing you see is how slow everything goes. The point is, that’s not what happened in our room because Larry and Kevin were involved in this AI-enhanced live translation mode, and the other four were freed. So they were able to have a free, wonderful, free-ranging conversation, and they were able to have that ability to connect in their way.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I love that example and how it’s not just about the personal interaction, but actually about the group dynamics, too. It shows you the work that’s involved in having a human translator, that someone has to mediate that process for you, and that’s actually work on them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I hadn’t really thought about that aspect of it, which is kinda cool. If you have a human interpreter, there might be things that you want to talk about that you don’t want them to hear about. And I think this is a common situation a little bit with, we know sometimes when immigrants come to a country where they don’t speak the kind of dominant language, that often their kids become interpreters, as they’re dealing with banks and as they’re dealing with medical providers. But, like if you think about, do you want your daughters to know all of your personal information that you might talk about with a doctor? No, right? And so just getting to choose who hears what information, yeah, that’s going to be really empowering.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it seems like in this example, depending on who is going to have to play that role of translator, is he going to feel comfortable, showering all this attention on perhaps his future daughter-in-law, for instance? If she’s the one translating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yes. Yeah. That would be really embarrassing. Though it may be a cool, slick move as well. She has to be like, “Oh, Daddy’s saying I’m so pretty,” and yeah, something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So already these tools are letting people connect with other people in new ways, really connect. But I didn’t invite Abby on this show just to marvel over what’s now possible with machine translation. Like I said, I have a lot of questions. Like, “Is that it? Are we humans all just done learning second, third, fourth languages because the machines can translate for us now? Or are there some parts of a conversation that a machine probably isn’t going to be able to translate for us, at least not anytime soon?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So a lot of people think of translation as just this simple process of taking words from one language and then mapping them one-to-one onto another language. But from a sociolinguist perspective, what else is language doing other than delivering that kind of information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> It’s doing so much, Jess. I love all the other things that language does. So one of the big things that I study and my field looks at is all the other information in the speech signal. So not just the content of the message but how you’re delivering it and all the other information that comes from that. So for example, anyone listening right now, you can probably hear that I was not born and raised in America.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ve got a New Zealand English accent. But people in New Zealand can probably also hear that I’ve lived in America for a while, that’s probably in my speech as well. You might be able to hear that you and I are friends and friendly. We’re both trying to be friendly. We’re both trying to sound smart right now, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe you can tell that this is a little bit more awkward formality for us than usual conversation with wine. So just your identity, and sometimes that stuff you’re trying to mark, like sometimes you’re like, “I want to sound really professional in this moment. I want to sound really from this place. I want to really lean into my higher roots or my New Zealand roots or something.” But then other times, there’s information there that you just can’t even control, right? Like, I’m not always necessarily trying to be like, “I’m a woman,” but most people will hear my voice and be like, “You’re a woman.” Or I’m not always trying to say I’m from New Zealand, but my vowels are always saying I’m from New Zealand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. So whether you want to or not, you are communicating a whole lot about who you are as a person and maybe how you’re feeling in that moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Abby says that any tool focused primarily on the words we are saying will always miss a lot of the social information that language communicates, information that a human interpreter who can pick up on body language or emotion could probably make better sense of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And even at the word level there’s a lot of ways for a translation to be incomplete. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>I mean, some things like if I say boot or trunk of a car, that’s a difference between British and American English. But I’m thinking even things more like if I say groovy or neato or amazeballs or, we have lots of ways to express that something’s cool, and how another language does that, they might miss that I’m being playful, or they might miss that I’m outdated in my slang. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>How do you translate that someone is saying amazeballs unironically because they’re really that excited? How do you translate that someone is saying groovy ironically because they’re making fun of themselves for being five decades late to the party? And that’s not all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>The other thing that language has built into it, both in vocal tone and stuff, but then also in word choice and sometimes actually in your grammar, is your relationship to other people. It’s not just me expressing my identity. I can also be trying to say something about the relationship that you and I have or the relationship I’d like us to have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So anything that is doing this translation, whether it’s a human or whether it’s a machine, they’re having to make some choices, and the nature of those choices are not going to be obvious to somebody who’s participating and only able to understand one side of that conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and most of the time, again, this… The technology’s kind of amazing. Being able to talk with anyone who you couldn’t talk to before, if the alternative is not being able to talk to them at all, that’s pretty amazing. But there are going to be times where if you don’t know the situation, it might be doing some really impolite things, and you might not know, right? Like the translation system might have decided to use an informal tone here, and you don’t realize it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And to some extent, that’s going to be true of a human translator but to a much lesser extent if they are very culturally fluent with both languages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, I actually… Now I’m remembering I had a student who was Korean-American, and her parents had come over from Korea beforehand, so they were native Korean speakers, and I was learning Korean at the time. And it was graduation, and I was saying something to her dad, like I don’t know. I can’t remember what I was saying, but I was trying to say something polite. And she’s like, “Um,” kind of to her dad like, “Uh, she’s just learning.” And I was like… I assumed that I’d used some impolite grammatical forms or something, right? I’d done some… She knew that I was kind of doing something inappropriate that I didn’t know that I was doing and was just smoothing over the situation because yeah, I think one of the things that humans do is that we’re very socially savvy. We’re always looking at, contextually, what’s contextually appropriate language. And if you’re a bilingual person, which a human translator has to be, right, to some degree to be able to do this translation work, presumably they’re going to know the social navigation pathways of both languages. And so they’re going to be able to pull on that information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Is there a danger that if we do move toward this world of relatively frictionless live translation, we could become overconfident that we’ve understood everything?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s… I think that’s almost part of it. It’s almost like the same problem that people are having right now with, you know, you hand in an essay that AI produced, and it looks so good that you don’t know that the citations are made-up. It’s that sort of confidence that it got the answer right that you would have that same kind of problem with translation, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Given the sheer complexity of language and all the things it’s trying to do, maybe it shouldn’t be a big surprise that as incredible as these tools are, they still make mistakes. A \u003ca href=\"https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/live-voice-translation-is-the-ai-americans-want-most-ahead-of-email-drafting-and-meeting-notes-new-deepl-research-finds-302858925.html\">recent survey\u003c/a> found that about half of people who’ve used some kind of translation app, chat bot, or wearable find it clunky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My own personal experience is pretty hit or miss. When I visited Quebec City this summer, Airbnb automatically translated my text messages to my host into French, and then translated his responses back into English. It was so seamless that I barely noticed. But then, when I tried out a pair of smart glasses to have a spoken conversation with a Bulgarian scholar here at the Ryan Institute about his summer vacation, a topic slightly more nuanced than what is the entry code to the apartment, it was a little rough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At first, I had to repeat my question three times until the glasses finally heard me well enough to translate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Jess Love talking to Bulgarian Scholar]: \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>“All right, let’s try again. Okay. Okay. I was holding it too long. I heard a rumor that you are going to the Dolomites this summer to do some hiking.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Bulgarian Scholar Translation Audio]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>That’s exactly how we’re going with a large group of friends. It’s about 20 people, and I’m pretty excited since it’s raining here, but there are almost no mountains, and I very rarely get to see mountains.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hungarian Scholar: \u003c/strong>It’s somewhat accurate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> The glasses kept messing up. We managed to stumble through a basic conversation but only because my colleague knew English and could correct the mistakes. It was not frictionless. So at least with the tools we have today, it’s pretty clear to me that some tasks will still require human translators, even if a lot of others don’t, and Abby agreed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I think it’s the case that we’re always going to need human translators, because there are high-stakes situations, right? Like international negotiations, big business deals. But I also imagine a young person looking at a career path and still seeing, probably rightly so, that there’s going to be less path forward for them there. And I think about the medical world a bit. I think that’s often where there was a feeling that there would be a lot of interpreters was in the medical field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you do already see them starting to use these tools and these translation tools automatically. You would hope they would always have someone on staff still, like to do translations when things get really nuanced and stuff. But I do think if I was a young person looking, even though there still will be those jobs, I would wonder about them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I would wonder too. Some of the practical reasons for learning a language are going away. After all, not everyone is going to be involved in negotiating corporate mergers or making high-stakes medical decisions. For a lot of situations, good enough really is good enough. And AI’s getting better. Companies are already trying to deal with these issues by like collecting visual data or following people over time so the machines have access to previous conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s no guarantee that these tools will still be making the same kinds of mistakes in five years, or even two. And so, yeah, some people who would’ve learned another language probably will decide, “Eh, why bother?” But Abby doesn’t see a future where people just decide to stop learning other languages, no matter how good the machines get, because there are a bunch of reasons for learning a language that have nothing to do with the mere exchange of information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After the break, she makes her case. We’ll also hear why some very unexpected languages are actually experiencing a resurgence of new learners, apps be damned. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I’m going to Germany later this year. The big reason, one of the big reasons I wanted to go to Germany, apart from working with some great researchers, is that I wanted to get my German better. I have no need to get German better. This is not an important thing in my life. I will not speak it. I will never need it, but I want to be good at it, right? I want to be better at it. I like it. I enjoy it. It’s a puzzle. It’s a game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Abby’s not alone. A lot of people are learning languages they don’t have to learn for purely communicative reasons, like because they need a job or need to get around a city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Like people right now are learning Welsh, and people are learning Te Reo Māori, and these people can all speak English in Wales and in New Zealand, but they’re choosing to learn this language that they do not need for communication, so why are they choosing to learn this language? Because they have an identity connection to this language, right? And so its important to them, separate from how many other people they can talk to in this language, right? Like its kind of a way to connect to an identity, because I think people really do associate languages with identity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s so interesting. Is there a resurgence in people trying to learn these minority languages, even right now in 2026?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yes. There’s definitely a resurgence in people trying to learn these languages. But that’s been happening since the ’80s, ’90s, 2000s. But since I’ve been in the States for almost 20 years now, and when I go back to New Zealand, it is shocking to me the amount of Te Reo that is around now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And what is Te Reo [Māori]?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> It’s the language. Sorry. It’s Māori. Māori. Sorry. It’s the Māori language. It’s just called the language, so it’s Te Reo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, can you just give a little… ‘Cause most of our audience is not from New Zealand, so just give a little… What is this language, and why do you think that people are learning to speak it more in New Zealand?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so this was the first language, human language spoken in New Zealand by the Māori. And then waves of English settlers came, and the language was forbidden, like happens in many of these situations. There was both an incentive to learn English for economic reasons, but then there were also actual moves to ban the language in school. And so kids would get smacked and things if they were speaking it in playgrounds and stuff. And so there was a generation or two that kind of were native speakers of Māori that literally intentionally chose not to pass it on to their children because it had only caused grief for them, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there was this next generation that was “Wait, we’ve lost this kind of connection to our identity.” And so there’s been this really big resurgence. And this is happening before the technology that we’re talking about, but it’s happening because this has identity meaning to people. This is culturally significant to them. Quite correctly, they see it as something that was taken away from them by kind of outsiders, and then they are trying to correct that and connect to these roots. Which what’s really interesting in New Zealand is a ton of white people or Pākehā, like me, a ton of white people have been learning Māori as well, right? So it’s also becoming a symbol of your political and New Zealand identity as well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So because this language has more cultural significance than it does, a purely functional significance, do you see it as pretty protected or insulated from some of the challenges of machine translation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When I’m thinking about it, now that we’re talking about it, I do think that it would be unlikely that you would use a translation app. If you were talking to someone who was a native or near-native fluent speaker of Te Reo and you wanted to communicate with them, you would do it in English or you would learn Te Reo. Why would you use an app to talk to them in this language, stiltingly with pauses and slowly when you both can talk in English, right? They are not going to appreciate that. They’re not really going to be interested in that, and what would probably be more impressive was you stumbling through some beginner Te Reo, which at least showed that you were putting in some effort yourself, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Do you remember that Mamdani clip? Should I try to find it and play it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Abby wanted us to listen to this recent video released by Zohran Mamdani, the mayor of New York City. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker: \u003c/strong>So there’s this clip you can find, it went kind of a little viral, a little while ago, and it’s Mamdani doing… the mayor of New York doing a piece to camera, and it’s kind of some political speech. I don’t know what he’s actually promoting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Zohran Mamdani speaking in Spanish]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so he is talking in Spanish and so he is trying to, you know, reach his Spanish Constituence. He does not speak Spanish, right? And so, there is this video of him and he is kind of like stumbling through Spanish and he takes it again and he’s getting corrected by AOC on his pronunciation. He keeps kind of forgetting things. And they’ve released this, right? And they think it’s not crazy that that happened but it’s very interesting to me that they released it because they are trying to emphasize that it wasn’t easy for him to speak Spanish and that he needed help speaking Spanish and he is not good at Spanish, but they knew that it would be charming and it is, right? Because it shows someone is trying to speak Spanish, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Zohran Mamdani speaking in Spanish]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They could have just released speeches with him in like fluent Spanish, or they could have had someone else who is a fluent Spanish speaker speaking on his behalf. In a little while, they could probably do videos where it looks like he is speaking Spanish, right? We’re kind of at that point of the technology now with video and audio that we could have something that sounds like him speaking in Spanish, looks like him speaking in Spanish. But they don’t do that, right? What they do is show someone who isn’t very good and who is trying, right? Part of what is really important to people is that you try to speak their language, right? And an app takes out that friction. It makes communication easier, but part of what language is signaling, too, when you use a language that is not a language that comes easy to you, is you’re signaling that you are trying, right? You are signaling that you are putting in some effort, that you don’t expect them to just understand you, and that you’re putting in some effort to be understood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, we’ve been dancing around this idea of the importance of friction, and I want to just ask you to spell it out. Why is friction important? What could friction signal? We’ve talked about belonging, we’ve talked about effort. What else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I mean, if I’m really just using an app to talk to you, right, I… And I’m not paying attention, I’m not really trying to do anything, I’m just trying to communicate with you, so I use an app, and it spits out whatever to talk to you, and I nod. You got the message, I got the message, I move on. Like, I haven’t really changed because of that interaction, right? So when you learn a language, to talk to someone, the effort of doing it, you are actually also changing yourself. So you are adding vocab, adding things that you can use in a new situation, adding things that you can use when you don’t have your phone around you, et cetera. So there’s just, literally you are changing a little bit, maybe in small ways. There is some evidence for regular bilinguals, like people who are regularly using multiple languages in their day-to-day, that they have better executive function than monolingual speakers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And by executive function, we’re talking about your ability to ignore irrelevant information and suppress responses that you might automatically make. And if you think about it, this makes a lot of sense why this would be tied to bilingualism, because you have a day where you are telling whatever language you’re not using, you’re saying, “Shut up. This isn’t about you.” So you’re ignoring anything else that’s irrelevant while you’re having these conversations. And from my understanding, those advantages get bigger as you age. So it’s essentially like you’re keeping your brain more active in this particular way. So obviously, all of those benefits, and just the fact that each time I stumble through something in German or Korean or today Māori, I am getting a little bit better, right? I’m learning a little bit more. That is this really big obvious thing that is being lost, is just that you are not having this growth. And it’s almost sad in some ways, because you had an opportunity, right? So let’s say you go to another country, you stay there for two months. You have this opportunity to do something, and you just spend all the time using these translation apps. You miss this opportunity to have this personal growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’s true. I went to Italy, and by the end of the trip, I was fully capable of asking where the bathroom was all by myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> In Italian?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Italian.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Wow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Don’t ask me to do it now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, boy. Try. Al bagno? Bagno? Bagno? I don’t want to talk about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Live translation tools are decent, and they’re going to get better. You can even imagine a version that works out most of the bugs. AI that does start picking up on body language and slang. Science fiction becoming reality. The universal translator, the Babel fish. But do we always want that? Throughout our conversation, as we talked about the importance of friction, it struck me that maybe today’s live translation tools, imperfect as they are, have their own charms, not despite the friction, but because of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I decided to play Abby another excerpt from our conversation with proud dad, Larry Berliner. While he and fellow dad Kevin were conversing on their ChatGPT app, they were speaking into the phone, which would generate a written translation, which the other one would read. Hardly seamless. But here, Larry talks about the conversation being so profound because of those seams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Larry Berliner]:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> This allowed us to speak in long paragraphs, like I’m doing right now, right? Shakespearean style, not a back and forth, but long paragraphs of ideas, and then it would translate, and we’d watch each other read it, which was exciting, and then the person would respond. And what ended up being magical was, first of all, we did it for a very long time.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What he chose to talk about was things that I don’t think he would ever have spoke about first if I was speaking his native language. Or wow, the extent of which is amazing. He talked about how he had met Sonya and the previous people he had been with at the time. He talked about his failures as a father. And just– it was immediately right to the bone.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m just struck by how he feels that conversation was facilitated by the fact that there was this level of friction, of literally having to read. Maybe the fact that you’re putting something into print and then somebody is going to read it makes you less likely to just waste that time to say, “Well, what do you think of the weather?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, that’s a really interesting idea, and it kinda makes sense. What it makes me think, though, is that there was this feeling that this was temporary, right? That this was not going to be the regular state of affairs. It’s almost like deathbed conversation. It feels like a little bit like what it sounded like to me. Just “I need you to, here are some really big things on my mind and my heart that I just really want you to know now that we’ve got this opportunity.” It is interesting, though, to think about, what if you never get there with someone who speaks your own language because you’ve always got the dance of we can speak so easily to each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and it was the artificiality of their own communication that led to something much deeper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Abby Walker:\u003c/strong> I love that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So am I going to encourage my eight-year-old to learn Spanish? Yes, absolutely. There’s so much we can’t know about AI and where it’s headed, but even if some reasons for learning another language go away, others won’t, or could even grow in importance. And in honor of our topic this week, we’ve machine translated our credits into ‘Klingon and back’, because why not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here we go. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Klingon words] \u003c/em>I am Jess of the clan Love. \u003cem>[Klingon words] \u003c/em>At the Northwestern University Citadel of Knowledge, inside the Kellogg School of Management, Life, Automated is an honorable battle quest of the Ryan Institute on Complexity. KQED hurls our battle transmissions across the void to conquer the airwaves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jesse Dukes sliced the captured sounds into submission. Stephen Jackson forged the battle hymns and struck the war drums. The machinery masters, Will Feeney and George Christensen, trapped the vocal cries of the interrogation inside the sound cage. Ananya Mallapragada commanded the proclamations of our glory and subjugated the civilian chatter web.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Producer: Jesse Dukes\u003cbr>Music: Steven Jackson\u003cbr>Recording: George Christensen, Will Feeney\u003cbr>Promotional help from Ananya Mallapragada\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Editorial guidance from Laura Pavin\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Larry Berliner and Georgi Demirev for their help testing out live translation tools\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a package of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/children\">online child safety bills\u003c/a> Thursday, enacting some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/10/governor-newsom-signs-the-strongest-child-safety-chatbot-and-social-media-laws-in-the-nation/\">strongest protections\u003c/a> for young users in the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The measures include \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb1119\">Senate Bill 1119\u003c/a>, co-authored by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, and Assemblymembers Buffy Wicks, D-Oakland, and Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, which requires operators of AI companion chatbots to assess the risks their products pose to children, document what they find and hand the results to an independent auditor. The bill also requires parental controls and in-app crisis support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2\">Assembly Bill 2\u003c/a>, from Assemblymember Josh Lowenthal, D-Long Beach, raises the damages a large social media company can face when its conduct harms a child. Lowenthal \u003ca href=\"https://lowenthal.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250512-california-assembly-passes-groundbreaking-legislation-hold-social-media\">pursued\u003c/a> the measure across three legislative sessions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1709\">AB 1709\u003c/a> bars social media platforms from serving addictive engagement features to users under 16. It passed the Legislature without a no vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094819\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. Gov. Gavin Newsom announced he will sign a bill that prohibits social media platforms from providing addictive features to users under the age of 16, the first law of its kind in the nation. (Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re establishing a framework,” Newsom said in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WIlU6xZ2JY\">press conference\u003c/a> Thursday announcing the package, “so that we can really enact a more aggressive posture as it relates to enforcement.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>First partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom also spoke at the event, reflecting her behind-the-scenes engagement with the policy debate over how best to protect children online. “Today has been a long time in coming,” she said. “And this one is truly for the kids. The kids who are with us, and the kids, like Adam and Owl, who are not.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Standing behind the documentary filmmaker were two mothers of children who died by suicide: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080610/california-mom-who-lost-her-son-to-an-ai-chatbot-is-now-fighting-to-regulate-them\">Maria Raine\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096121/she-died-by-design-meta-on-trial-over-child-safety\">Victoria Hinks\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is an incredible moment,” said Jim Steyer, whose group, Common Sense Media, backed all three bills. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speaking at the same press conference, Steyer called the legislative package “the first step in the United States towards comprehensive regulation and common-sense guardrails around these platforms.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A day earlier, Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/09/governor-newsom-signs-first-in-the-nation-ai-safeguards-to-protect-californians-calls-on-the-federal-government-to-do-its-part/\">signed\u003c/a> two bills that set up some of the enforcement infrastructure that would strengthen the hand of state regulators, especially when it comes to AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1405\">AB 1405\u003c/a>, from Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, creates a state registry of independent AI auditors and sets standards for their independence, transparency and integrity.\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\"> \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\">SB 813\u003c/a>, from Sen. Jerry McNerney, D-Pleasanton, establishes a framework for independent verification organizations, expert panels that can set the standards those auditors would uphold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you have a financial institution, they have to be audited by a third-party independent source,” Bauer-Kahan told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just as some government procurement contracts already hold AI developers accountable to federal law, Bauer-Kahan said the bills just signed into law would establish an auditing scheme in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The registry will begin to take shape in January, and Bauer-Kahan said it will expand to include a new category of job with a short history: that of the AI auditor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2291604853-scaled-e1789079469144.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099093\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Media gathers to hear remarks from Victoria Hinks, whose daughter, Alexandra “Owl” Hinks, died in a case that prosecutors allege was related to social media use, outside of the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building on Aug. 26, 2026, in Oakland, California. Hinks appeared with First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom at the signing of the new child safety laws on Sept. 10, 2026. (Heather Diehl/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California already has a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054490/child-safety-groups-demand-mental-health-guardrails-after-california-teens-suicide-using-chatgpt\">companion chatbot law\u003c/a>, requiring companion chatbots to tell minors they’re talking to a machine and to route users in crisis to help. But California is not alone legislating in this space: New York’s companion chatbot law took effect last November, and Idaho, Oregon and Washington passed their own rules this year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is so great to see SB 1119 signed into law,” Chris Lehane, vice president of global affairs at OpenAI, wrote in a statement. “It both meets the moment for parents and sets teens up for educational success. … Amongst several key elements, the bill treats teens as teens when it comes to making sure AI is both safe and a tool to help contribute to their ability to learn.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic endorsed SB 813 and AB 1405 in August. In a statement, Cesar Fernandez, Anthropic’s government affairs spokesperson, praised how these bills distinguish between an AI audit, which assesses the controls necessary to comply with the law, and an evaluation, which assesses the risks posed by an AI system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A Meta spokesperson commented specifically on two of the bills, AB 1709 and SB 1119. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regarding AB 1709, the spokesperson defended algorithmic tailoring of content, writing that it’s “how we deliver age-appropriate content for teens that is relevant to them — all with the proper guardrails in place.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regarding SB 1119, the spokesperson wrote Meta is still evaluating the new law, but supports chatbot regulation that “empowers parents to make decisions about how their families use these tools, while making sure key educational and enrichment tools are available to teens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to YouTube, TikTok and Snap for comment. They have not yet responded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“While more work is needed to ensure AI developers are required to have safeguards evaluated by independent third-party experts, we commend Sen. McNerney and Assemblymember Bauer-Kahan for their leadership on these important issues,” Fernandez wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The signings come on the heels of social media posts from Jacob Coxon, a former Anthropic researcher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coxon resigned this week over the company’s business practices, warning that both Anthropic and its competitor OpenAI are “racing straight to self-improving super-intelligence and gambling with our lives.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bauer-Kahan was more interested in the public reaction than the warning itself, which she said covered familiar ground. Bigger statements from larger groups of researchers, she said, have come and gone without breaking through — a shift she also sees in the fights over \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098559/newsoms-final-months-a-failed-deal-and-regulating-ai\">data centers\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What worries her most isn’t the doomsday scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think that the catastrophic risks are sometimes what we talk about, but the everyday impact of these systems are what I really worry about the most,” the Assembly member told KQED. “How do we make sure [Californians] continue to thrive and have meaningful work in their lives, and that these systems aren’t being used to deny them work and healthcare? That it isn’t taking our kids and isolating them and creating a mental health crisis?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2\">Assembly Bill 2\u003c/a>, from Assemblymember Josh Lowenthal, D-Long Beach, raises the damages a large social media company can face when its conduct harms a child. Lowenthal \u003ca href=\"https://lowenthal.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250512-california-assembly-passes-groundbreaking-legislation-hold-social-media\">pursued\u003c/a> the measure across three legislative sessions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>First partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom also spoke at the event, reflecting her behind-the-scenes engagement with the policy debate over how best to protect children online. “Today has been a long time in coming,” she said. “And this one is truly for the kids. The kids who are with us, and the kids, like Adam and Owl, who are not.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Speaking at the same press conference, Steyer called the legislative package “the first step in the United States towards comprehensive regulation and common-sense guardrails around these platforms.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A day earlier, Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/09/governor-newsom-signs-first-in-the-nation-ai-safeguards-to-protect-californians-calls-on-the-federal-government-to-do-its-part/\">signed\u003c/a> two bills that set up some of the enforcement infrastructure that would strengthen the hand of state regulators, especially when it comes to AI developers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1405\">AB 1405\u003c/a>, from Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, creates a state registry of independent AI auditors and sets standards for their independence, transparency and integrity.\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\"> \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“When you have a financial institution, they have to be audited by a third-party independent source,” Bauer-Kahan told KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just as some government procurement contracts already hold AI developers accountable to federal law, Bauer-Kahan said the bills just signed into law would establish an auditing scheme in California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2291604853-scaled-e1789079469144.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099093\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Media gathers to hear remarks from Victoria Hinks, whose daughter, Alexandra “Owl” Hinks, died in a case that prosecutors allege was related to social media use, outside of the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building on Aug. 26, 2026, in Oakland, California. Hinks appeared with First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom at the signing of the new child safety laws on Sept. 10, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Heather Diehl/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It is so great to see SB 1119 signed into law,” Chris Lehane, vice president of global affairs at OpenAI, wrote in a statement. “It both meets the moment for parents and sets teens up for educational success. … Amongst several key elements, the bill treats teens as teens when it comes to making sure AI is both safe and a tool to help contribute to their ability to learn.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It is so great to see SB 1119 signed into law,” Chris Lehane, vice president of global affairs at OpenAI, wrote in a statement. “It both meets the moment for parents and sets teens up for educational success. … Amongst several key elements, the bill treats teens as teens when it comes to making sure AI is both safe and a tool to help contribute to their ability to learn.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anthropic endorsed SB 813 and AB 1405 in August. In a statement, Cesar Fernandez, Anthropic’s government affairs spokesperson, praised how these bills distinguish between an AI audit, which assesses the controls necessary to comply with the law, and an evaluation, which assesses the risks posed by an AI system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anthropic endorsed SB 813 and AB 1405 in August. In a statement, Cesar Fernandez, Anthropic’s government affairs spokesperson, praised how these bills distinguish between an AI audit, which assesses the controls necessary to comply with the law, and an evaluation, which assesses the risks posed by an AI system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A Meta spokesperson commented specifically on two of the bills, AB 1709 and SB 1119. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Regarding AB 1709, the spokesperson defended algorithmic tailoring of content, writing that it’s “how we deliver age-appropriate content for teens that is relevant to them — all with the proper guardrails in place.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Regarding AB 1709, the spokesperson defended algorithmic tailoring of content, writing that it’s “how we deliver age-appropriate content for teens that is relevant to them — all with the proper guardrails in place.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Regarding SB 1119, the spokesperson wrote Meta is still evaluating the new law, but supports chatbot regulation that “empowers parents to make decisions about how their families use these tools, while making sure key educational and enrichment tools are available to teens.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Regarding SB 1119, the spokesperson wrote Meta is still evaluating the new law, but supports chatbot regulation that “empowers parents to make decisions about how their families use these tools, while making sure key educational and enrichment tools are available to teens.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to YouTube, TikTok and Snap for comment. They have not yet responded.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“While more work is needed to ensure AI developers are required to have safeguards evaluated by independent third-party experts, we commend Sen. McNerney and Assemblymember Bauer-Kahan for their leadership on these important issues,” Fernandez wrote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The signings come on the heels of social media posts from Jacob Coxon, a former Anthropic researcher.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Coxon resigned this week over the company’s business practices, warning that both Anthropic and its competitor OpenAI are “racing straight to self-improving super-intelligence and gambling with our lives.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bauer-Kahan was more interested in the public reaction than the warning itself, which she said covered familiar ground. Bigger statements from larger groups of researchers, she said, have come and gone without breaking through — a shift she also sees in the fights over \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098559/newsoms-final-months-a-failed-deal-and-regulating-ai\">data centers\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What worries her most isn’t the doomsday scenario.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think that the catastrophic risks are sometimes what we talk about, but the everyday impact of these systems are what I really worry about the most,” the Assembly member told KQED. “How do we make sure [Californians] continue to thrive and have meaningful work in their lives, and that these systems aren’t being used to deny them work and healthcare? That it isn’t taking our kids and isolating them and creating a mental health crisis?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I think that the catastrophic risks are sometimes what we talk about, but the everyday impact of these systems are what I really worry about the most,” the Assembly member told KQED. “How do we make sure [Californians] continue to thrive and have meaningful work in their lives, and that these systems aren’t being used to deny them work and healthcare? That it isn’t taking our kids and isolating them and creating a mental health crisis?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a package of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/children\">online child safety bills\u003c/a> Thursday, enacting some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/10/governor-newsom-signs-the-strongest-child-safety-chatbot-and-social-media-laws-in-the-nation/\">strongest protections\u003c/a> for young users in the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The measures include \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb1119\">Senate Bill 1119\u003c/a>, co-authored by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, and Assemblymembers Buffy Wicks, D-Oakland, and Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, which requires operators of AI companion chatbots to assess the risks their products pose to children, document what they find and hand the results to an independent auditor. The bill also requires parental controls and in-app crisis support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2\">Assembly Bill 2\u003c/a>, from Assemblymember Josh Lowenthal, D-Long Beach, raises the damages a large social media company can face when its conduct harms a child. Lowenthal \u003ca href=\"https://lowenthal.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250512-california-assembly-passes-groundbreaking-legislation-hold-social-media\">pursued\u003c/a> the measure across three legislative sessions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1709\">AB 1709\u003c/a> bars social media platforms from serving addictive engagement features to users under 16. It passed the Legislature without a no vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094819\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. Gov. Gavin Newsom announced he will sign a bill that prohibits social media platforms from providing addictive features to users under the age of 16, the first law of its kind in the nation. (Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re establishing a framework,” Newsom said in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WIlU6xZ2JY\">press conference\u003c/a> Thursday announcing the package, “so that we can really enact a more aggressive posture as it relates to enforcement.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>First partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom also spoke at the event, reflecting her behind-the-scenes engagement with the policy debate over how best to protect children online. “Today has been a long time in coming,” she said. “And this one is truly for the kids. The kids who are with us, and the kids, like Adam and Owl, who are not.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Standing behind the documentary filmmaker were two mothers of children who died by suicide: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080610/california-mom-who-lost-her-son-to-an-ai-chatbot-is-now-fighting-to-regulate-them\">Maria Raine\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096121/she-died-by-design-meta-on-trial-over-child-safety\">Victoria Hinks\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is an incredible moment,” said Jim Steyer, whose group, Common Sense Media, backed all three bills. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speaking at the same press conference, Steyer called the legislative package “the first step in the United States towards comprehensive regulation and common-sense guardrails around these platforms.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A day earlier, Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/09/governor-newsom-signs-first-in-the-nation-ai-safeguards-to-protect-californians-calls-on-the-federal-government-to-do-its-part/\">signed\u003c/a> two bills that set up some of the enforcement infrastructure that would strengthen the hand of state regulators, especially when it comes to AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1405\">AB 1405\u003c/a>, from Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, creates a state registry of independent AI auditors and sets standards for their independence, transparency and integrity.\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\"> \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\">SB 813\u003c/a>, from Sen. Jerry McNerney, D-Pleasanton, establishes a framework for independent verification organizations, expert panels that can set the standards those auditors would uphold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you have a financial institution, they have to be audited by a third-party independent source,” Bauer-Kahan told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just as some government procurement contracts already hold AI developers accountable to federal law, Bauer-Kahan said the bills just signed into law would establish an auditing scheme in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The registry will begin to take shape in January, and Bauer-Kahan said it will expand to include a new category of job with a short history: that of the AI auditor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2291604853-scaled-e1789079469144.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099093\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Media gathers to hear remarks from Victoria Hinks, whose daughter, Alexandra “Owl” Hinks, died in a case that prosecutors allege was related to social media use, outside of the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building on Aug. 26, 2026, in Oakland, California. Hinks appeared with First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom at the signing of the new child safety laws on Sept. 10, 2026. (Heather Diehl/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California already has a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054490/child-safety-groups-demand-mental-health-guardrails-after-california-teens-suicide-using-chatgpt\">companion chatbot law\u003c/a>, requiring companion chatbots to tell minors they’re talking to a machine and to route users in crisis to help. But California is not alone legislating in this space: New York’s companion chatbot law took effect last November, and Idaho, Oregon and Washington passed their own rules this year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is so great to see SB 1119 signed into law,” Chris Lehane, vice president of global affairs at OpenAI, wrote in a statement. “It both meets the moment for parents and sets teens up for educational success. … Amongst several key elements, the bill treats teens as teens when it comes to making sure AI is both safe and a tool to help contribute to their ability to learn.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic endorsed SB 813 and AB 1405 in August. In a statement, Cesar Fernandez, Anthropic’s government affairs spokesperson, praised how these bills distinguish between an AI audit, which assesses the controls necessary to comply with the law, and an evaluation, which assesses the risks posed by an AI system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A Meta spokesperson commented specifically on two of the bills, AB 1709 and SB 1119. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regarding AB 1709, the spokesperson defended algorithmic tailoring of content, writing that it’s “how we deliver age-appropriate content for teens that is relevant to them — all with the proper guardrails in place.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regarding SB 1119, the spokesperson wrote Meta is still evaluating the new law, but supports chatbot regulation that “empowers parents to make decisions about how their families use these tools, while making sure key educational and enrichment tools are available to teens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to YouTube, TikTok and Snap for comment. They have not yet responded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“While more work is needed to ensure AI developers are required to have safeguards evaluated by independent third-party experts, we commend Sen. McNerney and Assemblymember Bauer-Kahan for their leadership on these important issues,” Fernandez wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The signings come on the heels of social media posts from Jacob Coxon, a former Anthropic researcher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coxon resigned this week over the company’s business practices, warning that both Anthropic and its competitor OpenAI are “racing straight to self-improving super-intelligence and gambling with our lives.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bauer-Kahan was more interested in the public reaction than the warning itself, which she said covered familiar ground. Bigger statements from larger groups of researchers, she said, have come and gone without breaking through — a shift she also sees in the fights over \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098559/newsoms-final-months-a-failed-deal-and-regulating-ai\">data centers\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What worries her most isn’t the doomsday scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think that the catastrophic risks are sometimes what we talk about, but the everyday impact of these systems are what I really worry about the most,” the Assembly member told KQED. “How do we make sure [Californians] continue to thrive and have meaningful work in their lives, and that these systems aren’t being used to deny them work and healthcare? That it isn’t taking our kids and isolating them and creating a mental health crisis?”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Will \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> light a fire under the U.S. economy in the coming years? That’s been a big question in the field of economics, and now Anthropic — the company behind the popular Claude AI assistant — is taking a stab at helping people find their own answers. The company has created \u003ca href=\"https://www.anthropic.com/institute/econ-scenarios\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">an interactive tool\u003c/a> that lets users test their assumptions about how productive — or disruptive — the AI boom might be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In one scenario, artificial intelligence provides a gentle boost to the economy, lifting growth rates with little effect on workers. At the other extreme, GDP soars, but so does unemployment, with nearly 14% of workers losing their jobs to AI and less than half of them finding new ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The different outcomes depend on how capable and flexible the technology is, how quickly it’s adopted, whether it supports or replaces workers, and whether displaced workers find new work to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In the modest change scenario, AI is a small technology. The economy continues on a ‘normal’ path with AI making changes around the margins,” Anthropic experts write in an \u003ca href=\"https://www-cdn.anthropic.com/files/4zrzovbb/website/cf58f84d46a4a76bf5a5b039ac695fba6b80041c.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">accompanying blog post\u003c/a>. “In the extreme scenario, AI transforms the economy. The macroeconomic consequences go well beyond any event in history, both in terms of magnitudes and in terms of the speed at which change happens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Authors of the Anthropic study do not offer a prediction of which outcome is more likely. In general, they say, AI experts tend to project a more rapid spread of the technology while economists tend to be more cautious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic co-founder Jack Clark is somewhere in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think the technology will keep developing at a very, very fast and sustained rate, but diffusion of the technology will likely be more challenging than people think,” Clark told NPR. “So it will get really, really good. But it will make its way into the economy more slowly.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI’s impact on economy is uncertain\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A survey by Anthropic of nearly 11,000 people found that the public’s expectations of AI are also mixed. The average survey respondent projects a significant boost in productivity and economic growth but also a substantial disruption to workers in AI-sensitive fields.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A major determinant of AI’s impact will be how quickly it spreads through the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079282\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Salesforce Tower is seen reflected in the windows of 500 Howard St., where AI firm Anthropic subleased Slack’s office, in downtown San Francisco, California, on Oct. 19, 2023. (Loren Elliott for The Washington Post via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If the AI can do amazing things but nobody uses it, then it’s not going to have an economic impact,” says Anton Korinek, Anthropic’s head of transformative AI economic studies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While rapid adoption of the technology could be more disruptive, it could also produce much faster economic growth. In Anthropic’s extreme case, GDP grows at more than seven times its current pace. That could produce a lot of additional tax revenue to support workers who are hurt by AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you end up with this level of GDP growth, you have moves available to you as a [government] policymaker that are unimaginable today,” Clark says. “Policymakers should get ready to spend.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
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},
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"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
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"order": 8
},
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
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"source": "NPR"
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
},
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
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