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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAG-AFTRA is beginning its second week of contract negotiations with Hollywood studios. The union, representing actors and performers, is hoping to avoid a repeat of 2023, when talks broke down and a strike lasted more than a hundred days. AI is expected to be one of the main focuses of the talks.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A new bill in the California legislature aims to improve the safety of e-bikes. It would require owners of certain types of e-bikes to register with the DMV and display a license plate.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Hollywood studios, SAG-AFTRA return to negotiating table\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>SAG-AFTRA is in a second week of contract talks with Hollywood studios. And one of the biggest topics this time around is the use of Artificial Intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2026/film/news/sag-aftra-amptp-studio-talks-media-blackout-1236657118/\">“SAG-AFTRA was way out in front on this topic, way back in 2018, 2019,”\u003c/a> said Variety Senior Media Reporter Gene Maddaus. “They’ve been warning about what this could mean for performers and now it’s only gotten more urgent with all of the developments that have occurred in the last months. These advances in AI are just coming leaps and bounds and it creates a real problem for workers. Performers having potentially viable careers in an era where you can just sort of push a button and create a performance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the last contract negotiations, SAG-AFTRA, the union representing actors and performers, received some safeguards from AI. “Really, the focus in 2023 was on consent and compensation, and what they were sort of going for was if you’re going to use my image, my likeness, then it’s going to be with my permission and I’m going to get a cut of it,” Maddaus said. “What they didn’t get was really any protection around a synthetic actor — that would be a performer that doesn’t resemble any actor, a living person. And so that has become more of an issue as the technology has advanced. Now they can sort of put all the performances in the world and into a soup and create a performance out of that that doesn’t really resemble any one person. The question is — do SAG-AFTRA members have any compensation for that and that’s what I think they’re driving at now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the last contract talks in 2023, things broke down and SAG-AFTRA union members went on strike for more than 100 days.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Proposed bill aims to improve e-bike safety\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A proposal in Sacramento \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">would require owners of certain types of e-bikes to register with the Department of Motor Vehicles and display a license plate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Area Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan is the bill’s author. “The statewide integrated traffic record system shows that between 2018 and 2023, e-bike incidents in California increased 18 fold in five years,” she said.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The proposal would apply to \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Class 2 and Class 3 e-bikes, which have either a throttle or the capability to go faster than 20 miles per hour. “If they’re riding on our streets at 70 miles per hour, if they’re on our trails putting our bike riders, our pedestrians at risk, we don’t need to chase them. They will be held accountable. The license plate will be clear. We ‘ll know who violated the rules of the road. And we’ll be able to hold them accountable. And honestly, I think we’ll have to hold them accountable less because I think the ability to know who it is will in and of itself be a deterrent,” said Bauer-Kahan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"datePublished": "2026-02-17T10:00:31-08:00",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAG-AFTRA is beginning its second week of contract negotiations with Hollywood studios. The union, representing actors and performers, is hoping to avoid a repeat of 2023, when talks broke down and a strike lasted more than a hundred days. AI is expected to be one of the main focuses of the talks.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A new bill in the California legislature aims to improve the safety of e-bikes. It would require owners of certain types of e-bikes to register with the DMV and display a license plate.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Hollywood studios, SAG-AFTRA return to negotiating table\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>SAG-AFTRA is in a second week of contract talks with Hollywood studios. And one of the biggest topics this time around is the use of Artificial Intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2026/film/news/sag-aftra-amptp-studio-talks-media-blackout-1236657118/\">“SAG-AFTRA was way out in front on this topic, way back in 2018, 2019,”\u003c/a> said Variety Senior Media Reporter Gene Maddaus. “They’ve been warning about what this could mean for performers and now it’s only gotten more urgent with all of the developments that have occurred in the last months. These advances in AI are just coming leaps and bounds and it creates a real problem for workers. Performers having potentially viable careers in an era where you can just sort of push a button and create a performance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the last contract negotiations, SAG-AFTRA, the union representing actors and performers, received some safeguards from AI. “Really, the focus in 2023 was on consent and compensation, and what they were sort of going for was if you’re going to use my image, my likeness, then it’s going to be with my permission and I’m going to get a cut of it,” Maddaus said. “What they didn’t get was really any protection around a synthetic actor — that would be a performer that doesn’t resemble any actor, a living person. And so that has become more of an issue as the technology has advanced. Now they can sort of put all the performances in the world and into a soup and create a performance out of that that doesn’t really resemble any one person. The question is — do SAG-AFTRA members have any compensation for that and that’s what I think they’re driving at now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the last contract talks in 2023, things broke down and SAG-AFTRA union members went on strike for more than 100 days.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Proposed bill aims to improve e-bike safety\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A proposal in Sacramento \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">would require owners of certain types of e-bikes to register with the Department of Motor Vehicles and display a license plate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Area Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan is the bill’s author. “The statewide integrated traffic record system shows that between 2018 and 2023, e-bike incidents in California increased 18 fold in five years,” she said.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The proposal would apply to \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Class 2 and Class 3 e-bikes, which have either a throttle or the capability to go faster than 20 miles per hour. “If they’re riding on our streets at 70 miles per hour, if they’re on our trails putting our bike riders, our pedestrians at risk, we don’t need to chase them. They will be held accountable. The license plate will be clear. We ‘ll know who violated the rules of the road. And we’ll be able to hold them accountable. And honestly, I think we’ll have to hold them accountable less because I think the ability to know who it is will in and of itself be a deterrent,” said Bauer-Kahan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "love-in-the-time-of-doom-scrolling",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8381904068\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Avgitidis Pyrgiotakis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Matchmaker and CEO of Agapematch\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@thisshouldbeatrend\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Musician and content creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friends of Close All Tabs: Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Anna Iovine, Tanya Chen, Amanda Silberling, Harriet Weber, and Taj Weaver\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/03/technology/ai-dating-apps.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Don’t Need to Swipe Right. A.I. Is Transforming Dating Apps\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eli Tan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/25/podcasts/location-sharing-relationships.html\">To Share or Not to Share? How Location Sharing Is Changing Our Relationships\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Modern Love Podcast\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/perfection-without-connection-how-ai-is-becoming-digital-wingman-2025-10-04/\">‘Perfection without the connection’: How AI is becoming a digital wingman\u003c/a> — Hani Richter, \u003ci>Reuters\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theatlantic.com/family/2025/09/ai-matchmaking-online-dating/684386/\">The Doomed Dream of an AI Matchmaker\u003c/a> — Faith Hill, \u003ci>The Atlantic\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/book\">Ask A Matchmaker: Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love\u003c/a> — Maria Avgitidis, \u003ci>Matchmaker Maria\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bustle.com/articles/157064-is-u-hauling-real-heres-whats-behind-the-lesbian-stereotype\">Is U-Hauling Real? Here’s What’s Behind The Lesbian Stereotype \u003c/a>— Lea Rose Emery, \u003ci>Bustle\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pagingdrlesbian.com/p/whats-the-deal-with-u-haul-lesbians\">What’s The Deal With U-Haul Lesbians?\u003c/a> — Kira Deshler,\u003ci> Paging Dr. Lesbian\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, covering what we cover on this show, things right now can feel pretty bleak — surveillance culture, environmental injustice, the erosion of constitutional rights, the way algorithms silo and divide us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At a time when it feels like the machines are taking over, we thought we could spend an episode reminding all of you of what makes us most human: Love. And what better time to do that than a commercialized holiday designed to sell mass-produced chocolate? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to our Valentine’s Day episode! Today, we have a little heart shaped box of chocolates for you: three stories about how we connect as humans … even in this modern digital hellscape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether it’s through a human matchmaker, in a sea of AI-powered dating apps, or stumbling across a comment thread of hot singles in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or, literally finding the one and that involves unpacking a very thorny relationship debate: Do you share your location with your partner? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into our first story today. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, dating apps have been part of the romance ecosystem for over a decade. And they can be exhausting. But, we live so much of our lives online these days, and it’s not easy to meet someone in real life either. So some people have taken it upon themselves to play digital matchmaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open up a new tab: Doom scroll speed date. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So picture this: It’s late at night, you’re doomscrolling. Just consuming content until your brain shuts down and you can finally fall asleep. And then you come across a guy who also appears to be laying in bed, in the dark, in the same situation as you. And he starts talking directly to you, through the screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, hi. It appears as though we’re both doom scrolling at the same time right now. Uh, how, how’s it going? What the hell’s going on on your feed right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are doomscroll dates. It’s like a meet-cute, in the middle of the night when neither person should be awake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Actually, you know what? Don’t answer that. Um, it’s getting late. You should probably go to bed and I should probably go to bed, so it was cool bumping into you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joseph Manzo, also known as Jojo Manzo, also known by his TikTok handle, ThisShouldBeATrend, started his TikTok account as marketing research for his job. Then last year, on a whim, Jojo started a series where he pretended to take viewers on dates in the middle of a doom scrolling session.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People started really responding to his series. And Jojo realized that he could use his platform to play matchmaker. So he put together what he calls the doomscroll speed date. I’ll let Jojo tell the story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I noticed how many people in the comment sections of the doom scroll date videos that I was putting out. I, I feel like everyone’s just like craving connection, you know? Speaking for myself, I love being the matchmaker. Like I, I really want to put a bunch of people in a room just to see what happens and hope that some of them fall in love or some of them like connect in some way, shape, or form.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Jojo posted a video asking his audience to respond with comments, and laid out some instructions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, basically the ground rules of this, uh, doom scroll, speed date, is what I called it, is basically post a photo of yourself or a meme that you really like, and then your age and where you’re from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once people did that. Other users were encouraged to leave a reply underneath with a photo of themselves or another meme that might match the energy, and whoever left the original comment, was the only person that is allowed to reach out to someone who replied to them. So that way it kind of respected boundaries on everyone’s parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments poured in, gym selfies, polished headshots, goofy unposed photos that you probably wouldn’t find on a typical dating app profile and lots of memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This user said Dallas, Texas with a meme of a very nefarious cartoon just kind of sticking out their tongue, all like, and then someone said, ain’t too far drive for me with the eye emojis. But as this user, so absolutely put, “I don’t have a meme, but I did see this cool apple in the store the other day. This is flirting, right? Why does this feel like a better dating opportunity than hinge? “\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone decided to post a photo of them on Halloween, dressed as Benjamin Franklin, and yes, this is a woman dressed as Benjamin Franklin, uh, with a 0.5 camera selfie, and also put some of their music taste \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo’s doom scroll speed date video got thousands of comments overnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that post resonated with people so well is because I was almost selling them on a pitch to be like. H Hinge and Bumble aren’t working, but TikTok might work Dating app algorithms are very much like Instagram, like everyone really curates their profiles, whereas I feel like people on TikTok are. A lot more comfortable in being careless. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That kind of just develops this opportunity for people to not feel like there’s so much pressure. like it is a casual interaction. You either connect or you don’t \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: While a lot of people \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">did\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> put themselves out there in the comments, they weren’t getting many replies … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the comments that were coming in were largely women:, \u003c/span>\u003cb>“\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments are full of baddies, but I’m not seeing a male in New York City.” The straight men were not making moves. I actually left a reply to somebody who had asked, “Where are all the men at?” And I think one of my comments verbatim was, “Yo! Respectfully, y’all aren’t flirting enough.” And that comment got lit up with likes and then a lot of replies started coming in for the people who already posted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “38-year-old anime nerd in Columbus, Ohio. Forgive the gym photo, don’t have a lot of full body pictures.” And it’s, it’s a dude in the gym, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, that this person sent high with five eyes and a classic smiley face really, really cheesing. Aw, she’s so cute. With a little cardigan on and the glasses. Aw, I hope they work out. I hope they get to meet up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did not follow up with anyone. Quite frankly, there are thousands of comments on that post that I would have to, I would have to doom scroll the comment section that that’s how many there are and that’s how much time it would take. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think some of the, these ones, like I just mentioned, might have a little bit of merit and I’ll need to reach out to them on the side. Just be like, so, uh, you guys meet up yet? and then there were a lot of, there was actually a lot of requests for me to do this again, but to do it by city, which I haven’t done yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really do think this experiment was a success. I mean, my head canon is that there’s at least one potential couple now, you know, I, I really do feel like. This was a good exercise for people to put themselves out there and, um, for either starting the conversation or to drive the conversation. Um, and man, I really, really hope that I can be invited to somebody’s wedding someday\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo tapped into people’s frustration with dating apps and swipe fatigue and tried to DIY a solution. Like he said, he likes playing matchmaker. Tech companies also say they have a solution, with the hottest feature in dating apps right now: AI matchmakers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But will they actually help? Well, let’s open a new tab. What are AI matchmakers missing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, these aren’t AI companions that would replace human dates. These are AI-powered features to help users connect with dates. Like one called Amata, that talks to users, and then describes them to potential matches. Or Rizz, the digital wingman that analyzes screenshots of messages, and generates a quippy, conversation-sparking response. Sliding into DMs? You can outsource your flirting! There are now dozens of apps that offer AI-powered relationship advice. A dating coach in your pocket, available 24/7. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these features are designed to alleviate swipe fatigue: the mental, emotional, and physical burnout of modern dating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I wanted to hear from a human matchmaker about why she’s so suspicious of integrating AI features into dating apps, and what it really takes to find a match. What’s the secret sauce to meeting new people?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Matchmaker Maria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am Maria Avgitidis better known as Matchmaker Maria, and I am the founder of Agape Match, which is a matchmaking service based out of New York City. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s also an author, and the host of the podcast Ask A Matchmaker. Maria comes from a long line of matchmakers. Before her, her grandmother, her great grandmother, and her great great grandmother were matchmakers in Greece. These previous generations lived through times of famine and political unrest. So back then, matchmaking was really more about building alliances between families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so when I say alliance, you have to think about bartering and trade. And you know, if my family makes milk and your family makes glass bottles, that’s a pretty good match. So these are the things that they were thinking about.They weren’t thinking about are these two people in love? They were thinking about are these families gonna get on. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when my grandmother was matchmaking, first of all, there’s no computers, let alone the internet, let alone mobile phones where we would swipe on potential soulmates while sitting on the couch. And a lot of my clientele now in 2026 and didn’t just start now, it started, I wanna say 11 years ago. In 2015 we started getting the new audience of people who just felt a lot of dating fatigue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it, they didn’t have problem going on dates, you know, they could open up an app, but if it takes too long to go from online to offline, you can feel a bit of dating fatigue. But in 2026 what I see the biggest difference in singles is how the algorithm and also how an AI can reaffirm things that might not necessarily be the right thing for us. And I think about that a lot because, there is a rise in AI in dating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m so glad you brought up AI because that’s what we’re here to talk about today. the biggest trend in, in dating app tech right now is so-called AI matchmaking. Everyone’s trying to get their LLMs to be the next cupid. Um, a lot of them use AI chatbots to basically ask users questions and then match them with other users based on their answers so that they don’t have to build a profile, they don’t have to swipe, removing a lot of that friction, you know, what do you make of this trend?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, first of all, I resent the fact that it’s called matchmaker. just because I’m maybe a generational matchmaker. I know what it takes to be a professional matchmaker. It’s so much about community building. At the end of the day, you know, matchmaking is considered one of the oldest professions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It ranks up there with a midwife and uh, and sex work and, The reason why matchmaking has always existed is because dating is a communal activity. You know, don’t look at yourself right now if you are single, laying on the couch, swiping while an episode of Friends or Big Bang Theory playing in the background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not what dating, that’s not what courtship is supposed to be like. It’s supposed to be your parents meddling. It’s supposed to be your cousin setting up with their friends. It’s your friends setting you up with their friends and you meeting their coworkers at a barbecue. Like dating is a communal effort, ’cause we were not meant to date alone. Humans have this instinct to connect. So that’s the first part, but now what is it exactly doing? And it goes back to my suspicions of, you know, what algorithms and AI can do. I’m not saying that they’re not helpful in certain elements of our jobs, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I just actually put the privacy policy of a social media site on my ChatGPT to be like, what am I, what’s wrong with it? You know, and like, let me know so I don’t have to read the whole privacy policy. So I’m not saying that there’s not some really great benefits with having ai, um, help us, but I do feel like people have a very poor perception of who they actually are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when you talk to an AI, you wanna say really good things about yourself. You’re not necessarily being tasked to look at yourself critically and. Because the AI is built to reaffirm you, even if you’re making a very bad decision. So now take it to dating, what questions are these apps asking to really get to know you, to really understand what kind of partner you will be? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a chat bot can do a really great job at making some assumptions on your horoscope or numerology or your Enneagram because a lot of content in on the internet already exists, where it pulls from. I wonder what kind of content it would pull from to help someone who is experiencing extreme loneliness. And then it goes back to the end of who is this for? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No one’s building an AI matchmaking company from the goodness of their heart. There’s probably gonna be investors, there’s probably gonna be shareholders. There’s probably a company that wants to buy it and someone’s gonna profit. And I’m not saying that a dating company or a dating service provider should not get paid for the work that they do. They should absolutely get paid. I’ll be the first to say it. Hello!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I, as a human matchmaker, have a motivation to get my client into a relationship as quickly as possible, because as a human being, I don’t wanna talk to my clients longer than I have to. Right? Like, I really want them in relationships because I want them to leave me alone. That’s not, that’s an optimistic way of looking at it. Right? I wanna be good at my job. I wanna be a good matchmaker. Right? But dating companies, they don’t have that, they can tell us, oh, you know, it’s not just about shareholders.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, we wanna help people fall in love. Okay. But you, you, you’re not creating apps that are providing that safe environment. Women are looking for. And you are showing men, women that don’t wanna date them, so they’re having a terrible dating experience and all this because they get to pay every month their subscription to make the shareholders happy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a lot of these dating apps or a lot of these, I, I know you hate the term, but that’s what they’re calling themselves, AI matchmakers, um, report to. Yeah. Just take that kind of friction out of, swiping,out of like having to sift through all these new people and all these new profiles. I mean, Facebook’s dating assistant for example, it works by basically telling the chat bot, uh, a bunch of unique traits that you’re looking for in a partner and they will present you with matches. And the example that meta itself used was find me a Brooklyn girl in tech and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The chatbot will present profiles of Brooklyn Girls in Tech. I, it’s not dissimilar to what you do, but also, you know, it’s, it seems to be the final evolution of everything that people have been complaining about when it comes to dating apps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are all living pretty frictionless lives in 2026 in the United States. What I mean by that is you do most things that you need to do on technology on your phone. You can order food through Uber Eats. You can order a car through Lyft you can go to the Starbucks checkout line and actually use the app, not have to interact with a barista at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so when you look at dating, I just said before that, you know, dating was never meant to be done, like solo. It’s supposed to be a communal thing because at the end of the day, should you two work out, the alliance of family is still there. And it, that is important because family is what determines our long-term values, even the ones we don’t agree with. that is where our attachment comes from.That is where our initial beliefs, our initial philosophies in life come from. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like it’s all developed from these families that we are a part of and what we might create, so for dating apps or AI matchmakers, which I hate that I’m even using that word, but whatever, um, what I find really shocking is that it’s because the environment is so frictionless that people are experiencing dating fatigue. Why would you make it even more frictionless? Like, I don’t know how that helps people. and by the way, I’m not anti dating app, but we, we, you don’t have to participate in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a world out there where you could use. An an online tool to get offline. And those tools are called Eventbrite. There’s also social clubs in New York. The fastest growing social club is New York City Backgammon Club. Uh, people, hundreds of people show up to play an ancient game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They put their phones away. And I know that sounds for some people it’s like, ‘oh my God, you want me to go out?’ But you wouldn’t be thinking, this is weird. If it was 2016 or if it was 2006. But now that we have worked from home, now that we have these hybrid work schedules, which again, I’m not against, I think these are fantastic opportunities, but if you’re gonna work from home,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that means you have to put in even more effort to actually be involved in social events.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’ve really talked about how friction is necessary for. Community. You need to be a little uncomfortable to meet people, and that community is the secret to relationships. Can you expand on that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The reason why I say that you have to fill up a social calendar is because it’s not just romantic relationships, but friendships. We have this idea that friendship is supposed to be organic, but romantic relationships are supposed to be intentional. And it’s actually the reverse. Your friendships have always been intentional, right? The friendships you made in high school or in elementary school, it wasn’t your intention, but your parents intended to live in that neighborhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You and your group of friends went to the same school and you met, and through proximity, you became friends. You see this with your college friends, you see this with your work friends. You see this with most adult friendships, that these were intentional choices that had you meet this person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to think that friendship is now organic, it really collapses like how we make friends, because you typically don’t make friends just walking in the supermarket. more than half of you’re wearing AirPods when you go in there. So you know, no one’s really talking to you either. So. The way to create any sort of relationship is we have to have the baseline foundation of friendship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, friendship can only happen with two things in this formula, proximity and familiarity. If your algorithm is only showing you one single race, one single body type, one single lifestyle, then that is what you’re familiar with. And I can understand when people say to me, I’m just not attracted to this, or I’m not attracted to that. I, I get it. Your, your own upbringing is going to influence what you are familiar with. Right? But then there’s that proximity and that re, you know, proximity is also about repetition. You have to have that time invested in that person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you were to develop friendships, if you really put that as your goal in 2026, the odds of you getting a relationship through this friendship circle, through this brand new social circle would exponentially grow. Because the people that are going to have the most influence over what your future looks like at this point is whoever is new to that social circle that you’re developing, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember when I met my spouse, my husband, the people that introduced us, who I intentionally met, I actively did things to meet these people. I had only met them three months before and they completely changed my life and I will forever be grateful for them. But that’s it though, is why did that friendship flourish? Familiarity, proximity. I was constantly seeing them, so that way when I met the rest of their friendship circle. I was familiar with the values that both my spouse and our mutual friend shared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What my grandmother, her mother, and her grandmother did really well was build community and they also understood that marriage was a long term commitment, not necessarily by just two people, but by two families because you know, they had a village and that village has to be there for each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Matchmaker Maria, the host of the podcast Ask a Matchmaker and author of the book, Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ve been talking about how to find someone online and in real life — and hate to break it to you, but sometimes that does involve going outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But once you’ve found the one do you keep tabs on them? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this episode is all about finding love in this very online landscape. And so far, we’ve heard about how people are finding connection — whether it’s through a matchmaker, an AI-powered dating app, or a doom scroll speed date. Now, for the last chocolate in our Valentine’s Day assortment, it’s time for a story about literally finding your love … Or at least, finding your love’s location. And this one’s personal for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? How about opening one last tab?: Did I digitally u-haul?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Chinese folklore, there is the Red Thread of Fate. It’s a magical red cord that connects lovers who are destined to be together, no matter what happens. The lore says that the old god of matchmaking binds the couple together by tying the cord around their ankles or their pinkies, depending on who you ask. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although the cord might twist and tangle, it’ll never break. They’ll always find their way back to each other in the end. Today, we just have Find My Friends. With this nifty little app, you can see all your loved ones as little dots on a map, whenever you want! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with over a dozen people — family members, close friends, and my partner. Over the holidays, a relative who isn’t much older than me was shocked that I’m so cavalier about sharing my location with others. Especially because we just put out an episode on digital hygiene and personal security. And their reaction made me reevaluate some of my online habits: Am I a digital u-hauler? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you aren’t familiar with this, u-hauling is a lesbian stereotype. Many queer women are inclined to develop intense emotional bonds and commit to new relationships, very quickly. So quickly, they move in together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from TikTok account @Madeitoutpodcast]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A u-haul! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was comedian Lea DeLaria recently retelling her 30-year old joke. She first told it during her comedy special in the 90s, and the u-haul lesbian has been a community-defining punchline ever since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, the so-called “urge to merge” is influencing digital habits, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have managed to avoid the stereotype of actually u-hauling. It took me well over a year of dating, and before that, eight years of friendship, to move in with my partner. And in previous relationships, I’d always been adamant that we really know each other before sharing a home. In fact, I didn’t even want to share an Instagram grid. Up until my partner and I got together, I had never hard launched a girlfriend. I always had very firm boundaries in relationships. But when it comes to sharing my location? Maybe it’s a different story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m definitely not the first queer person to hop into the proverbial digital u-haul. For this story, our team asked people to send voice notes about their experiences with location sharing and romance. Our producer Maya Cueva got this voice note from her friend, Taj. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I sent this person, who I was dating, my location and I thought that was fine. They shared their location with me uh, really early on, like probably in the first, like month or two. And at the time I shared locations with all my friends, like 15 people at this time, like, I didn’t think anything of it. Did it early on. Had no idea it was called digital U-Hauling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Ok, it’s not really a thing. I made it up, because I’ve done it so often. \u003cb> \u003c/b>I may not be a serial u-hauler, but I am definitely guilty of \u003ci>digital\u003c/i> u-hauling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it may be a surprise that I myself am guilty of this, because, as a tech journalist you’d think that I’d be more guarded about this. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sharing my location like that felt like wearing my heart on my sleeve. Here! I’m giving you access to my whereabouts all the time! I’m trusting you to find me, but only when it’s socially appropriate! And I would never expect the object of my very trackable affections to send me \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">their \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">location — although, whenever they did reciprocate, it was always like, a nice affirmation that we were on the same page. And more importantly, it was convenient. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Tanya, though, has a completely different approach to this than I do. Tanya is a tech journalist too, and she takes privacy pretty seriously. She sent me this voice note: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s not that I refuse to share my location, especially with, close, uh, trusted friends and family and I have, it’s just something I really prioritize just to be unsearchable and unknowable, just to kind of like be able to exist freely without people knowing where I am. Or bothering me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do not like knowing, you know, where I am. I do like knowing where you are though, but you can’t have a one way situation, uh, relationship as it turns out like that. so if I were to offer my own thoughts on this yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to be really precious about like who you share it with, I mean, for the obvious reason, like precarious stalking stuff. Right? it’s an absolute right. And even, um, now something that’s kind of rare to just like, not have anyone find you. Um, love you. Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> U-hauling may be a lesbian stereotype, but the practice of sharing locations is of course, not exclusive to sapphic relationships. And It’s not always a philosophical debate about privacy and personal freedom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times, it’s just a matter of practicality. Like, I have these friends, Mandy and Jackson. They’re engaged now, been together for six and a half years, and they’ve been sharing their location for most of their relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jackson only shares his location with me, but I actually share my location with 14 people, including my mom. I just, I like to look at my little sims and see where my friends are. When do you check my location? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackson Maxwell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s pretty rare that I do, uh, Mandy recently had a foot surgery a few months ago, and, uh, getting around, uh, with limited mobility on the New York City subway system, really not easy. Uh, getting around on the streets also not easy, so I would just double check \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and similar, I mean, Jackson making sure I’m okay. but Jackson used to have. seizures. and so if he was out like taking a walk or running errands and I hadn’t heard from him for a while, it gave me a lot of peace of mind to be able to see where he was and know that if something happened and he was stuck somewhere, that I would be able to come find him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of our long-term partnership or any long-term partnership as being like the buddy system in school. Like you always have to know, be with your buddy and know where your buddy is. And that’s what, that’s what having a fiance is, is the buddy system. so I just gotta be able to check on my buddy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Location sharing in relationships has been a decade long debate at this point. It’s super polarizing. Some see it as another form of surveillance, while others can’t trust their partners without location sharing. Like, for my friend Amanda, location sharing is a sticking point. Not between Amanda and her boyfriend, but between the couple and everyone else they know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am very online. I am an internet culture reporter. I am professionally, very online. I share my location with a bunch of people, but I don’t have my boyfriend’s location.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is interesting to me how some friends, when I’ve told them I don’t have his location, they’re like, what are you doing? That’s a red flag. Like, is that okay? And I’m like, I don’t think he’s hiding anything. and I don’t think that we should assume that not sharing your location means you’re hiding something. Because like. Like, I think it’s very reasonable to not want someone to know where you are at all times of the day, like as long as he texts me when he gets home, if he’s out late, I don’t really care that I don’t have his location. But then it’s funny because some of our other friends have been like, I would be worried if you did have your, that their location, like that’s a sign of distrust. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s almost like a micro generational gap where people born in like 1998 think it’s weird that I don’t have my boyfriend’s location and people born in like 1994 are like, it would be really weird if you had it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are legitimate reasons to hide or obscure your location, and it’s not always to hide cheating or anything nefarious. On this show, we’re always talking about the surveillance state, and how our right to privacy is getting chipped away every day. Big tech companies are collecting all of our data and selling it off to the highest bidder, all the time. And at the individual level, people do abuse these apps to stalk and monitor and control others. My friend Anna is a journalist who’s covered sex and relationships for years, so I consider her an expert in the realm of love and the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m pretty ambivalent about location sharing because it’s absolutely a tool to surveil people and I ultimately think that breeds more paranoia and, honestly hiding things that don’t need to be hidden. I generally think that more surveillance doesn’t work and just like encourages people to find loopholes.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, Anna and her fiancee, Kat, do share their locations with each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I prefer it that way. I think it’s a great utility. And I ultimately think if someone, if you share your location and someone’s doing something nefarious, they will figure out a way to, um, not be seen. And even in like other ways where you don’t really want someone to know what you’re doing. Like last year when I was. Planning on proposing, um, a week before Kat had plans. So I went to the location and I swapped the location of my device to my iPad. So if Kat did check my location, in that instance I was like, oh, I need her to see that I’m home. So I changed my location. Bu that was like, so galaxy-brained. I was like, what am I doing? But hey, she didn’t find out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a degree of vulnerability involved in sharing locations, especially in a new relationship. In a way, it’s like giving a piece of yourself to another person. Screw the predestined red thread of fate! With a couple of taps, you can give someone\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the other end of a digital tether to yourself. No old god of matchmaking needed! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But not everyone is comfortable with that. My friend Harriet has the complete opposite approach to new relationships than I did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would need to build a lot of trust with someone before wanting to do that. It, it was even a big deal to me to share my location with friends. Um, and I only started doing that because I’ve been going on dates, uh, with total strangers. So if you’re my friend and I’ve shared my location with you, that is a big deal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m honored to be one of the select few that Harriet does share her location with. We swapped locations when she got back on the apps, and wanted to make sure that her friends knew that she got home safe. And since then, it has been really convenient. Like, having each others’ locations came in handy when we were trying to find each other in a crowded park during Pride. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many other people in this story, Harriet is also a tech journalist. Hey, a lot of my friends are, ok? And I, as well as a lot of my friends, are hyperaware of the fact that convenience often comes at the cost of personal privacy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something I have feelings on myself is, um, the feeling of being surveilled. It’s so abstracted that it’s not really in my face, like a camera would be in my face. For example. If, if a camera’s in your face, you’re gonna act a little different, um, regardless of what you’re doing. There’s just something about it that reminds me a little bit too much of like, spyware.I guess it just makes me a little bit uncomfortable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something I had grappled with, amid all of my digital u-hauling antics. You’re giving the other person the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">option\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to surveil you, sure, but you’re also trusting that they won’t. The social contract dictates that location sharing is a sacred bond. When you opt in, you’re agreeing that you’ll only use that connection when it’s appropriate. To me, the inherent vulnerability in location sharing is what makes it feel like such a romantic gesture. I mean, it’s commitment, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t recommend it. Clearly, I think it is a little too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Taj again. They had shared their location after just a month of dating their new girlfriend. Long story short, they aren’t together anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it put a lot of stress in like, I don’t know, a weird surveillance on the relationship and there was a few times where it was like, okay, she could see my location. And she’s like, oh, like, ‘what’s up? You haven’t hit me,’ versus like, oh, maybe you’re just at home focusing on yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It only takes one weird experience to drain the romance out of location sharing. Years ago, amid a breakup, I felt that exact sense of surveillance that Taj was talking about. The whole thing made me a lot more parsimonious about sharing my location especially when there are romantic stakes involved. When it came to finding my dates in crowded places, I had become a big fan of the “share for one hour” option. The other person can see where you are, but that link expires. You get all the convenience, without any of the commitment or vulnerability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then when \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the right time to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">permanently\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> share locations? When do you take that leap of faith? My friend Anna weighed in on this again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t remember having a discussion like, oh, are we gonna share locations now? Or, oh, can I have your location? I’m sure it was an instance where, like, oh, the subway’s down and I’m gonna be late, so why don’t, I’m gonna give you my location so you can see where I am. It definitely felt good. It didn’t feel like as significant as, say, becoming girlfriends or obviously like moving in together or something like that. But it felt nice. It’s like an even deeper level of trust.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My days of digital u-hauling, of sharing and then un-sharing with new people, came to an end three years ago, when my partner and I got together. We were best friends for nearly a decade at that point, and had each others’ locations the entire time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time we finally started dating, we had already established a routine of following the other person’s little blue dot to find each other — at concerts, at the farmer’s market, and yes, even as friends at the giant IKEA in Burbank, California. In fact, I didn’t know her address for a good year, because I would just drive to her location on Find My Friends. Although we didn’t \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">literally\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> u-haul, we were already sharing this hugely vulnerable connection. I don’t remember when we actually \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">started\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> sharing our locations with each other. But I like to think that the red thread of fate bound us together long before an app ever did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In all of my digital u-hauling, things would end, and I would inevitably cut that tether — digital and emotional. But this time, I know it won’t break. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Special thanks to our friends for sending us their location sharing stories: Taj Weaver, Tanya Chen, Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Amanda Silberling, Anna lovine, and Harriet Weber. If there’s anything I love more than love stories, it’s a juicy voice note. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, happy Valentine’s day, lovers. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, with support from Gabriela Glueck. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOur team includes editor Chris Hambrick and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.KQED.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8381904068\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Avgitidis Pyrgiotakis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Matchmaker and CEO of Agapematch\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@thisshouldbeatrend\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Musician and content creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friends of Close All Tabs: Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Anna Iovine, Tanya Chen, Amanda Silberling, Harriet Weber, and Taj Weaver\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/03/technology/ai-dating-apps.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Don’t Need to Swipe Right. A.I. Is Transforming Dating Apps\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eli Tan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/25/podcasts/location-sharing-relationships.html\">To Share or Not to Share? How Location Sharing Is Changing Our Relationships\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Modern Love Podcast\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/perfection-without-connection-how-ai-is-becoming-digital-wingman-2025-10-04/\">‘Perfection without the connection’: How AI is becoming a digital wingman\u003c/a> — Hani Richter, \u003ci>Reuters\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theatlantic.com/family/2025/09/ai-matchmaking-online-dating/684386/\">The Doomed Dream of an AI Matchmaker\u003c/a> — Faith Hill, \u003ci>The Atlantic\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/book\">Ask A Matchmaker: Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love\u003c/a> — Maria Avgitidis, \u003ci>Matchmaker Maria\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bustle.com/articles/157064-is-u-hauling-real-heres-whats-behind-the-lesbian-stereotype\">Is U-Hauling Real? Here’s What’s Behind The Lesbian Stereotype \u003c/a>— Lea Rose Emery, \u003ci>Bustle\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pagingdrlesbian.com/p/whats-the-deal-with-u-haul-lesbians\">What’s The Deal With U-Haul Lesbians?\u003c/a> — Kira Deshler,\u003ci> Paging Dr. Lesbian\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, covering what we cover on this show, things right now can feel pretty bleak — surveillance culture, environmental injustice, the erosion of constitutional rights, the way algorithms silo and divide us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At a time when it feels like the machines are taking over, we thought we could spend an episode reminding all of you of what makes us most human: Love. And what better time to do that than a commercialized holiday designed to sell mass-produced chocolate? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to our Valentine’s Day episode! Today, we have a little heart shaped box of chocolates for you: three stories about how we connect as humans … even in this modern digital hellscape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether it’s through a human matchmaker, in a sea of AI-powered dating apps, or stumbling across a comment thread of hot singles in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or, literally finding the one and that involves unpacking a very thorny relationship debate: Do you share your location with your partner? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into our first story today. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, dating apps have been part of the romance ecosystem for over a decade. And they can be exhausting. But, we live so much of our lives online these days, and it’s not easy to meet someone in real life either. So some people have taken it upon themselves to play digital matchmaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open up a new tab: Doom scroll speed date. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So picture this: It’s late at night, you’re doomscrolling. Just consuming content until your brain shuts down and you can finally fall asleep. And then you come across a guy who also appears to be laying in bed, in the dark, in the same situation as you. And he starts talking directly to you, through the screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, hi. It appears as though we’re both doom scrolling at the same time right now. Uh, how, how’s it going? What the hell’s going on on your feed right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are doomscroll dates. It’s like a meet-cute, in the middle of the night when neither person should be awake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Actually, you know what? Don’t answer that. Um, it’s getting late. You should probably go to bed and I should probably go to bed, so it was cool bumping into you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joseph Manzo, also known as Jojo Manzo, also known by his TikTok handle, ThisShouldBeATrend, started his TikTok account as marketing research for his job. Then last year, on a whim, Jojo started a series where he pretended to take viewers on dates in the middle of a doom scrolling session.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People started really responding to his series. And Jojo realized that he could use his platform to play matchmaker. So he put together what he calls the doomscroll speed date. I’ll let Jojo tell the story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I noticed how many people in the comment sections of the doom scroll date videos that I was putting out. I, I feel like everyone’s just like craving connection, you know? Speaking for myself, I love being the matchmaker. Like I, I really want to put a bunch of people in a room just to see what happens and hope that some of them fall in love or some of them like connect in some way, shape, or form.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Jojo posted a video asking his audience to respond with comments, and laid out some instructions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, basically the ground rules of this, uh, doom scroll, speed date, is what I called it, is basically post a photo of yourself or a meme that you really like, and then your age and where you’re from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once people did that. Other users were encouraged to leave a reply underneath with a photo of themselves or another meme that might match the energy, and whoever left the original comment, was the only person that is allowed to reach out to someone who replied to them. So that way it kind of respected boundaries on everyone’s parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments poured in, gym selfies, polished headshots, goofy unposed photos that you probably wouldn’t find on a typical dating app profile and lots of memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This user said Dallas, Texas with a meme of a very nefarious cartoon just kind of sticking out their tongue, all like, and then someone said, ain’t too far drive for me with the eye emojis. But as this user, so absolutely put, “I don’t have a meme, but I did see this cool apple in the store the other day. This is flirting, right? Why does this feel like a better dating opportunity than hinge? “\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone decided to post a photo of them on Halloween, dressed as Benjamin Franklin, and yes, this is a woman dressed as Benjamin Franklin, uh, with a 0.5 camera selfie, and also put some of their music taste \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo’s doom scroll speed date video got thousands of comments overnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that post resonated with people so well is because I was almost selling them on a pitch to be like. H Hinge and Bumble aren’t working, but TikTok might work Dating app algorithms are very much like Instagram, like everyone really curates their profiles, whereas I feel like people on TikTok are. A lot more comfortable in being careless. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That kind of just develops this opportunity for people to not feel like there’s so much pressure. like it is a casual interaction. You either connect or you don’t \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: While a lot of people \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">did\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> put themselves out there in the comments, they weren’t getting many replies … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the comments that were coming in were largely women:, \u003c/span>\u003cb>“\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments are full of baddies, but I’m not seeing a male in New York City.” The straight men were not making moves. I actually left a reply to somebody who had asked, “Where are all the men at?” And I think one of my comments verbatim was, “Yo! Respectfully, y’all aren’t flirting enough.” And that comment got lit up with likes and then a lot of replies started coming in for the people who already posted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “38-year-old anime nerd in Columbus, Ohio. Forgive the gym photo, don’t have a lot of full body pictures.” And it’s, it’s a dude in the gym, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, that this person sent high with five eyes and a classic smiley face really, really cheesing. Aw, she’s so cute. With a little cardigan on and the glasses. Aw, I hope they work out. I hope they get to meet up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did not follow up with anyone. Quite frankly, there are thousands of comments on that post that I would have to, I would have to doom scroll the comment section that that’s how many there are and that’s how much time it would take. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think some of the, these ones, like I just mentioned, might have a little bit of merit and I’ll need to reach out to them on the side. Just be like, so, uh, you guys meet up yet? and then there were a lot of, there was actually a lot of requests for me to do this again, but to do it by city, which I haven’t done yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really do think this experiment was a success. I mean, my head canon is that there’s at least one potential couple now, you know, I, I really do feel like. This was a good exercise for people to put themselves out there and, um, for either starting the conversation or to drive the conversation. Um, and man, I really, really hope that I can be invited to somebody’s wedding someday\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo tapped into people’s frustration with dating apps and swipe fatigue and tried to DIY a solution. Like he said, he likes playing matchmaker. Tech companies also say they have a solution, with the hottest feature in dating apps right now: AI matchmakers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But will they actually help? Well, let’s open a new tab. What are AI matchmakers missing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, these aren’t AI companions that would replace human dates. These are AI-powered features to help users connect with dates. Like one called Amata, that talks to users, and then describes them to potential matches. Or Rizz, the digital wingman that analyzes screenshots of messages, and generates a quippy, conversation-sparking response. Sliding into DMs? You can outsource your flirting! There are now dozens of apps that offer AI-powered relationship advice. A dating coach in your pocket, available 24/7. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these features are designed to alleviate swipe fatigue: the mental, emotional, and physical burnout of modern dating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I wanted to hear from a human matchmaker about why she’s so suspicious of integrating AI features into dating apps, and what it really takes to find a match. What’s the secret sauce to meeting new people?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Matchmaker Maria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am Maria Avgitidis better known as Matchmaker Maria, and I am the founder of Agape Match, which is a matchmaking service based out of New York City. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s also an author, and the host of the podcast Ask A Matchmaker. Maria comes from a long line of matchmakers. Before her, her grandmother, her great grandmother, and her great great grandmother were matchmakers in Greece. These previous generations lived through times of famine and political unrest. So back then, matchmaking was really more about building alliances between families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so when I say alliance, you have to think about bartering and trade. And you know, if my family makes milk and your family makes glass bottles, that’s a pretty good match. So these are the things that they were thinking about.They weren’t thinking about are these two people in love? They were thinking about are these families gonna get on. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when my grandmother was matchmaking, first of all, there’s no computers, let alone the internet, let alone mobile phones where we would swipe on potential soulmates while sitting on the couch. And a lot of my clientele now in 2026 and didn’t just start now, it started, I wanna say 11 years ago. In 2015 we started getting the new audience of people who just felt a lot of dating fatigue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it, they didn’t have problem going on dates, you know, they could open up an app, but if it takes too long to go from online to offline, you can feel a bit of dating fatigue. But in 2026 what I see the biggest difference in singles is how the algorithm and also how an AI can reaffirm things that might not necessarily be the right thing for us. And I think about that a lot because, there is a rise in AI in dating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m so glad you brought up AI because that’s what we’re here to talk about today. the biggest trend in, in dating app tech right now is so-called AI matchmaking. Everyone’s trying to get their LLMs to be the next cupid. Um, a lot of them use AI chatbots to basically ask users questions and then match them with other users based on their answers so that they don’t have to build a profile, they don’t have to swipe, removing a lot of that friction, you know, what do you make of this trend?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, first of all, I resent the fact that it’s called matchmaker. just because I’m maybe a generational matchmaker. I know what it takes to be a professional matchmaker. It’s so much about community building. At the end of the day, you know, matchmaking is considered one of the oldest professions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It ranks up there with a midwife and uh, and sex work and, The reason why matchmaking has always existed is because dating is a communal activity. You know, don’t look at yourself right now if you are single, laying on the couch, swiping while an episode of Friends or Big Bang Theory playing in the background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not what dating, that’s not what courtship is supposed to be like. It’s supposed to be your parents meddling. It’s supposed to be your cousin setting up with their friends. It’s your friends setting you up with their friends and you meeting their coworkers at a barbecue. Like dating is a communal effort, ’cause we were not meant to date alone. Humans have this instinct to connect. So that’s the first part, but now what is it exactly doing? And it goes back to my suspicions of, you know, what algorithms and AI can do. I’m not saying that they’re not helpful in certain elements of our jobs, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I just actually put the privacy policy of a social media site on my ChatGPT to be like, what am I, what’s wrong with it? You know, and like, let me know so I don’t have to read the whole privacy policy. So I’m not saying that there’s not some really great benefits with having ai, um, help us, but I do feel like people have a very poor perception of who they actually are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when you talk to an AI, you wanna say really good things about yourself. You’re not necessarily being tasked to look at yourself critically and. Because the AI is built to reaffirm you, even if you’re making a very bad decision. So now take it to dating, what questions are these apps asking to really get to know you, to really understand what kind of partner you will be? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a chat bot can do a really great job at making some assumptions on your horoscope or numerology or your Enneagram because a lot of content in on the internet already exists, where it pulls from. I wonder what kind of content it would pull from to help someone who is experiencing extreme loneliness. And then it goes back to the end of who is this for? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No one’s building an AI matchmaking company from the goodness of their heart. There’s probably gonna be investors, there’s probably gonna be shareholders. There’s probably a company that wants to buy it and someone’s gonna profit. And I’m not saying that a dating company or a dating service provider should not get paid for the work that they do. They should absolutely get paid. I’ll be the first to say it. Hello!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I, as a human matchmaker, have a motivation to get my client into a relationship as quickly as possible, because as a human being, I don’t wanna talk to my clients longer than I have to. Right? Like, I really want them in relationships because I want them to leave me alone. That’s not, that’s an optimistic way of looking at it. Right? I wanna be good at my job. I wanna be a good matchmaker. Right? But dating companies, they don’t have that, they can tell us, oh, you know, it’s not just about shareholders.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, we wanna help people fall in love. Okay. But you, you, you’re not creating apps that are providing that safe environment. Women are looking for. And you are showing men, women that don’t wanna date them, so they’re having a terrible dating experience and all this because they get to pay every month their subscription to make the shareholders happy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a lot of these dating apps or a lot of these, I, I know you hate the term, but that’s what they’re calling themselves, AI matchmakers, um, report to. Yeah. Just take that kind of friction out of, swiping,out of like having to sift through all these new people and all these new profiles. I mean, Facebook’s dating assistant for example, it works by basically telling the chat bot, uh, a bunch of unique traits that you’re looking for in a partner and they will present you with matches. And the example that meta itself used was find me a Brooklyn girl in tech and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The chatbot will present profiles of Brooklyn Girls in Tech. I, it’s not dissimilar to what you do, but also, you know, it’s, it seems to be the final evolution of everything that people have been complaining about when it comes to dating apps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are all living pretty frictionless lives in 2026 in the United States. What I mean by that is you do most things that you need to do on technology on your phone. You can order food through Uber Eats. You can order a car through Lyft you can go to the Starbucks checkout line and actually use the app, not have to interact with a barista at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so when you look at dating, I just said before that, you know, dating was never meant to be done, like solo. It’s supposed to be a communal thing because at the end of the day, should you two work out, the alliance of family is still there. And it, that is important because family is what determines our long-term values, even the ones we don’t agree with. that is where our attachment comes from.That is where our initial beliefs, our initial philosophies in life come from. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like it’s all developed from these families that we are a part of and what we might create, so for dating apps or AI matchmakers, which I hate that I’m even using that word, but whatever, um, what I find really shocking is that it’s because the environment is so frictionless that people are experiencing dating fatigue. Why would you make it even more frictionless? Like, I don’t know how that helps people. and by the way, I’m not anti dating app, but we, we, you don’t have to participate in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a world out there where you could use. An an online tool to get offline. And those tools are called Eventbrite. There’s also social clubs in New York. The fastest growing social club is New York City Backgammon Club. Uh, people, hundreds of people show up to play an ancient game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They put their phones away. And I know that sounds for some people it’s like, ‘oh my God, you want me to go out?’ But you wouldn’t be thinking, this is weird. If it was 2016 or if it was 2006. But now that we have worked from home, now that we have these hybrid work schedules, which again, I’m not against, I think these are fantastic opportunities, but if you’re gonna work from home,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that means you have to put in even more effort to actually be involved in social events.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’ve really talked about how friction is necessary for. Community. You need to be a little uncomfortable to meet people, and that community is the secret to relationships. Can you expand on that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The reason why I say that you have to fill up a social calendar is because it’s not just romantic relationships, but friendships. We have this idea that friendship is supposed to be organic, but romantic relationships are supposed to be intentional. And it’s actually the reverse. Your friendships have always been intentional, right? The friendships you made in high school or in elementary school, it wasn’t your intention, but your parents intended to live in that neighborhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You and your group of friends went to the same school and you met, and through proximity, you became friends. You see this with your college friends, you see this with your work friends. You see this with most adult friendships, that these were intentional choices that had you meet this person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to think that friendship is now organic, it really collapses like how we make friends, because you typically don’t make friends just walking in the supermarket. more than half of you’re wearing AirPods when you go in there. So you know, no one’s really talking to you either. So. The way to create any sort of relationship is we have to have the baseline foundation of friendship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, friendship can only happen with two things in this formula, proximity and familiarity. If your algorithm is only showing you one single race, one single body type, one single lifestyle, then that is what you’re familiar with. And I can understand when people say to me, I’m just not attracted to this, or I’m not attracted to that. I, I get it. Your, your own upbringing is going to influence what you are familiar with. Right? But then there’s that proximity and that re, you know, proximity is also about repetition. You have to have that time invested in that person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you were to develop friendships, if you really put that as your goal in 2026, the odds of you getting a relationship through this friendship circle, through this brand new social circle would exponentially grow. Because the people that are going to have the most influence over what your future looks like at this point is whoever is new to that social circle that you’re developing, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember when I met my spouse, my husband, the people that introduced us, who I intentionally met, I actively did things to meet these people. I had only met them three months before and they completely changed my life and I will forever be grateful for them. But that’s it though, is why did that friendship flourish? Familiarity, proximity. I was constantly seeing them, so that way when I met the rest of their friendship circle. I was familiar with the values that both my spouse and our mutual friend shared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What my grandmother, her mother, and her grandmother did really well was build community and they also understood that marriage was a long term commitment, not necessarily by just two people, but by two families because you know, they had a village and that village has to be there for each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Matchmaker Maria, the host of the podcast Ask a Matchmaker and author of the book, Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ve been talking about how to find someone online and in real life — and hate to break it to you, but sometimes that does involve going outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But once you’ve found the one do you keep tabs on them? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this episode is all about finding love in this very online landscape. And so far, we’ve heard about how people are finding connection — whether it’s through a matchmaker, an AI-powered dating app, or a doom scroll speed date. Now, for the last chocolate in our Valentine’s Day assortment, it’s time for a story about literally finding your love … Or at least, finding your love’s location. And this one’s personal for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? How about opening one last tab?: Did I digitally u-haul?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Chinese folklore, there is the Red Thread of Fate. It’s a magical red cord that connects lovers who are destined to be together, no matter what happens. The lore says that the old god of matchmaking binds the couple together by tying the cord around their ankles or their pinkies, depending on who you ask. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although the cord might twist and tangle, it’ll never break. They’ll always find their way back to each other in the end. Today, we just have Find My Friends. With this nifty little app, you can see all your loved ones as little dots on a map, whenever you want! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with over a dozen people — family members, close friends, and my partner. Over the holidays, a relative who isn’t much older than me was shocked that I’m so cavalier about sharing my location with others. Especially because we just put out an episode on digital hygiene and personal security. And their reaction made me reevaluate some of my online habits: Am I a digital u-hauler? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you aren’t familiar with this, u-hauling is a lesbian stereotype. Many queer women are inclined to develop intense emotional bonds and commit to new relationships, very quickly. So quickly, they move in together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from TikTok account @Madeitoutpodcast]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A u-haul! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was comedian Lea DeLaria recently retelling her 30-year old joke. She first told it during her comedy special in the 90s, and the u-haul lesbian has been a community-defining punchline ever since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, the so-called “urge to merge” is influencing digital habits, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have managed to avoid the stereotype of actually u-hauling. It took me well over a year of dating, and before that, eight years of friendship, to move in with my partner. And in previous relationships, I’d always been adamant that we really know each other before sharing a home. In fact, I didn’t even want to share an Instagram grid. Up until my partner and I got together, I had never hard launched a girlfriend. I always had very firm boundaries in relationships. But when it comes to sharing my location? Maybe it’s a different story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m definitely not the first queer person to hop into the proverbial digital u-haul. For this story, our team asked people to send voice notes about their experiences with location sharing and romance. Our producer Maya Cueva got this voice note from her friend, Taj. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I sent this person, who I was dating, my location and I thought that was fine. They shared their location with me uh, really early on, like probably in the first, like month or two. And at the time I shared locations with all my friends, like 15 people at this time, like, I didn’t think anything of it. Did it early on. Had no idea it was called digital U-Hauling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Ok, it’s not really a thing. I made it up, because I’ve done it so often. \u003cb> \u003c/b>I may not be a serial u-hauler, but I am definitely guilty of \u003ci>digital\u003c/i> u-hauling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it may be a surprise that I myself am guilty of this, because, as a tech journalist you’d think that I’d be more guarded about this. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sharing my location like that felt like wearing my heart on my sleeve. Here! I’m giving you access to my whereabouts all the time! I’m trusting you to find me, but only when it’s socially appropriate! And I would never expect the object of my very trackable affections to send me \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">their \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">location — although, whenever they did reciprocate, it was always like, a nice affirmation that we were on the same page. And more importantly, it was convenient. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Tanya, though, has a completely different approach to this than I do. Tanya is a tech journalist too, and she takes privacy pretty seriously. She sent me this voice note: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s not that I refuse to share my location, especially with, close, uh, trusted friends and family and I have, it’s just something I really prioritize just to be unsearchable and unknowable, just to kind of like be able to exist freely without people knowing where I am. Or bothering me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do not like knowing, you know, where I am. I do like knowing where you are though, but you can’t have a one way situation, uh, relationship as it turns out like that. so if I were to offer my own thoughts on this yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to be really precious about like who you share it with, I mean, for the obvious reason, like precarious stalking stuff. Right? it’s an absolute right. And even, um, now something that’s kind of rare to just like, not have anyone find you. Um, love you. Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> U-hauling may be a lesbian stereotype, but the practice of sharing locations is of course, not exclusive to sapphic relationships. And It’s not always a philosophical debate about privacy and personal freedom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times, it’s just a matter of practicality. Like, I have these friends, Mandy and Jackson. They’re engaged now, been together for six and a half years, and they’ve been sharing their location for most of their relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jackson only shares his location with me, but I actually share my location with 14 people, including my mom. I just, I like to look at my little sims and see where my friends are. When do you check my location? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackson Maxwell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s pretty rare that I do, uh, Mandy recently had a foot surgery a few months ago, and, uh, getting around, uh, with limited mobility on the New York City subway system, really not easy. Uh, getting around on the streets also not easy, so I would just double check \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and similar, I mean, Jackson making sure I’m okay. but Jackson used to have. seizures. and so if he was out like taking a walk or running errands and I hadn’t heard from him for a while, it gave me a lot of peace of mind to be able to see where he was and know that if something happened and he was stuck somewhere, that I would be able to come find him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of our long-term partnership or any long-term partnership as being like the buddy system in school. Like you always have to know, be with your buddy and know where your buddy is. And that’s what, that’s what having a fiance is, is the buddy system. so I just gotta be able to check on my buddy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Location sharing in relationships has been a decade long debate at this point. It’s super polarizing. Some see it as another form of surveillance, while others can’t trust their partners without location sharing. Like, for my friend Amanda, location sharing is a sticking point. Not between Amanda and her boyfriend, but between the couple and everyone else they know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am very online. I am an internet culture reporter. I am professionally, very online. I share my location with a bunch of people, but I don’t have my boyfriend’s location.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is interesting to me how some friends, when I’ve told them I don’t have his location, they’re like, what are you doing? That’s a red flag. Like, is that okay? And I’m like, I don’t think he’s hiding anything. and I don’t think that we should assume that not sharing your location means you’re hiding something. Because like. Like, I think it’s very reasonable to not want someone to know where you are at all times of the day, like as long as he texts me when he gets home, if he’s out late, I don’t really care that I don’t have his location. But then it’s funny because some of our other friends have been like, I would be worried if you did have your, that their location, like that’s a sign of distrust. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s almost like a micro generational gap where people born in like 1998 think it’s weird that I don’t have my boyfriend’s location and people born in like 1994 are like, it would be really weird if you had it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are legitimate reasons to hide or obscure your location, and it’s not always to hide cheating or anything nefarious. On this show, we’re always talking about the surveillance state, and how our right to privacy is getting chipped away every day. Big tech companies are collecting all of our data and selling it off to the highest bidder, all the time. And at the individual level, people do abuse these apps to stalk and monitor and control others. My friend Anna is a journalist who’s covered sex and relationships for years, so I consider her an expert in the realm of love and the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m pretty ambivalent about location sharing because it’s absolutely a tool to surveil people and I ultimately think that breeds more paranoia and, honestly hiding things that don’t need to be hidden. I generally think that more surveillance doesn’t work and just like encourages people to find loopholes.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, Anna and her fiancee, Kat, do share their locations with each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I prefer it that way. I think it’s a great utility. And I ultimately think if someone, if you share your location and someone’s doing something nefarious, they will figure out a way to, um, not be seen. And even in like other ways where you don’t really want someone to know what you’re doing. Like last year when I was. Planning on proposing, um, a week before Kat had plans. So I went to the location and I swapped the location of my device to my iPad. So if Kat did check my location, in that instance I was like, oh, I need her to see that I’m home. So I changed my location. Bu that was like, so galaxy-brained. I was like, what am I doing? But hey, she didn’t find out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a degree of vulnerability involved in sharing locations, especially in a new relationship. In a way, it’s like giving a piece of yourself to another person. Screw the predestined red thread of fate! With a couple of taps, you can give someone\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the other end of a digital tether to yourself. No old god of matchmaking needed! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But not everyone is comfortable with that. My friend Harriet has the complete opposite approach to new relationships than I did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would need to build a lot of trust with someone before wanting to do that. It, it was even a big deal to me to share my location with friends. Um, and I only started doing that because I’ve been going on dates, uh, with total strangers. So if you’re my friend and I’ve shared my location with you, that is a big deal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m honored to be one of the select few that Harriet does share her location with. We swapped locations when she got back on the apps, and wanted to make sure that her friends knew that she got home safe. And since then, it has been really convenient. Like, having each others’ locations came in handy when we were trying to find each other in a crowded park during Pride. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many other people in this story, Harriet is also a tech journalist. Hey, a lot of my friends are, ok? And I, as well as a lot of my friends, are hyperaware of the fact that convenience often comes at the cost of personal privacy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something I have feelings on myself is, um, the feeling of being surveilled. It’s so abstracted that it’s not really in my face, like a camera would be in my face. For example. If, if a camera’s in your face, you’re gonna act a little different, um, regardless of what you’re doing. There’s just something about it that reminds me a little bit too much of like, spyware.I guess it just makes me a little bit uncomfortable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something I had grappled with, amid all of my digital u-hauling antics. You’re giving the other person the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">option\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to surveil you, sure, but you’re also trusting that they won’t. The social contract dictates that location sharing is a sacred bond. When you opt in, you’re agreeing that you’ll only use that connection when it’s appropriate. To me, the inherent vulnerability in location sharing is what makes it feel like such a romantic gesture. I mean, it’s commitment, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t recommend it. Clearly, I think it is a little too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Taj again. They had shared their location after just a month of dating their new girlfriend. Long story short, they aren’t together anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it put a lot of stress in like, I don’t know, a weird surveillance on the relationship and there was a few times where it was like, okay, she could see my location. And she’s like, oh, like, ‘what’s up? You haven’t hit me,’ versus like, oh, maybe you’re just at home focusing on yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It only takes one weird experience to drain the romance out of location sharing. Years ago, amid a breakup, I felt that exact sense of surveillance that Taj was talking about. The whole thing made me a lot more parsimonious about sharing my location especially when there are romantic stakes involved. When it came to finding my dates in crowded places, I had become a big fan of the “share for one hour” option. The other person can see where you are, but that link expires. You get all the convenience, without any of the commitment or vulnerability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then when \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the right time to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">permanently\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> share locations? When do you take that leap of faith? My friend Anna weighed in on this again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t remember having a discussion like, oh, are we gonna share locations now? Or, oh, can I have your location? I’m sure it was an instance where, like, oh, the subway’s down and I’m gonna be late, so why don’t, I’m gonna give you my location so you can see where I am. It definitely felt good. It didn’t feel like as significant as, say, becoming girlfriends or obviously like moving in together or something like that. But it felt nice. It’s like an even deeper level of trust.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My days of digital u-hauling, of sharing and then un-sharing with new people, came to an end three years ago, when my partner and I got together. We were best friends for nearly a decade at that point, and had each others’ locations the entire time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time we finally started dating, we had already established a routine of following the other person’s little blue dot to find each other — at concerts, at the farmer’s market, and yes, even as friends at the giant IKEA in Burbank, California. In fact, I didn’t know her address for a good year, because I would just drive to her location on Find My Friends. Although we didn’t \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">literally\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> u-haul, we were already sharing this hugely vulnerable connection. I don’t remember when we actually \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">started\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> sharing our locations with each other. But I like to think that the red thread of fate bound us together long before an app ever did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In all of my digital u-hauling, things would end, and I would inevitably cut that tether — digital and emotional. But this time, I know it won’t break. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Special thanks to our friends for sending us their location sharing stories: Taj Weaver, Tanya Chen, Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Amanda Silberling, Anna lovine, and Harriet Weber. If there’s anything I love more than love stories, it’s a juicy voice note. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, happy Valentine’s day, lovers. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, with support from Gabriela Glueck. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOur team includes editor Chris Hambrick and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.KQED.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1658905284\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/dormiya-vance/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya Vance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Southside reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/marlon-hyde/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlon Hyde\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, business reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/data-centers-are-growing-faster-in-atlanta-than-anywhere-else-in-the-us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers power our online lives. The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A full transcript will be available 1–2 workdays after the episode’s publication.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1658905284\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/dormiya-vance/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya Vance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Southside reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/marlon-hyde/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlon Hyde\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, business reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/data-centers-are-growing-faster-in-atlanta-than-anywhere-else-in-the-us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers power our online lives. The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-real-cost-of-ai-slop",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning 🧠\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "The Real Cost of AI Slop | KQED",
"description": "How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use. Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning 🧠\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Nvidia has announced a suite of open-source AI weather forecasting systems, joining other \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/category/technology\">Big Tech players\u003c/a> hoping to establish themselves in the space as federal funding evaporates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California farmers, insurers and meteorologists alike stand to gain from adding \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/ai\">AI\u003c/a> to their weather-forecasting toolboxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the American Meteorological Society’s\u003ca href=\"https://www.ametsoc.org/ams/meetings-events/upcoming-meetings/annual-meeting/\"> annual meeting\u003c/a> in Houston, Nvidia unveiled a new \u003ca href=\"https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/high-performance-computing/earth-2/\">NVIDIA Earth-2 “family”\u003c/a> of open models, libraries and frameworks for weather and climate AI, offering what it called “the world’s first fully open, accelerated weather AI software stack.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Clara-based chipmaker described the system as “complete” for nowcasting and medium-range predictions that previously took hours on high-performance computing clusters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nvidia said the tools represent the first time AI has surpassed traditional, physics-based weather prediction models in short-term precipitation forecasting. The company added that developers across industries are already using Earth-2 to predict weather and “harness actionable insights.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/qo78lSBYi-U?si=QfwIVTE331HifdRV\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a shot across the bow at other private AI developers, including Alphabet’s Google, Microsoft and Huawei Technologies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private-sector AI tools like Nvidia’s are welcome additions — not replacements — in a rapidly changing world, according to climate scientist Daniel Swain of UC Agriculture and Natural Resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swain said he is less concerned about the hallucinations that plague public-facing large language models than about AI weather modeling’s still unproven ability to predict edge cases based on historical data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes when it matters most — the very most extreme events that might be at the edge or outside of what we’ve seen historically — is precisely when we need the most accurate weather forecast,” Swain said. “We might not be there yet.” He added that the technology is rapidly advancing.[aside postID=news_12070850 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2234090773.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are real gains, in terms of scientific understanding as well as in prediction, and there’s need for continued caution,” said Noah Diffenbaugh, a professor and senior fellow at Stanford University’s Doerr School of Sustainability. But he struck a more cautionary note. “Other AI applications can produce inaccurate results, can produce results that are not grounded in reality. That’s a risk with these systems as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private developers trained their AI on a corpus of data that was largely publicly funded. While that bolsters the models’ credibility with scientists, it also raises troubling questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one, private developers are, by definition, concerned with profit — eventually, if not immediately. There is no guarantee they will not begin charging for access to their models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Within a university context, we have no profit motivation at all,” Diffenbaugh said. “We’re trying to understand how the world works. And we’re doing that within our time scale, a much longer time scale (than private developers). And I think the benefit that we can bring in our work is that we’re doing that work in the context of this rigorous, patient scientific evaluation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The primary question for Swain is whether optimism about end-to-end AI models could be used by Trump administration officials to justify ceding data collection and weather modeling entirely to the private sector, even as global warming dramatically alters the climate system, particularly in California, with its complex interplay of atmospheric rivers, marine layers, Sierra snowpack, wind patterns and wildfire risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Not only are we not there yet, not only do I think we won’t be there anytime soon, I’m not sure that we will ever get to that point,” Swain said. “It’s almost a category error to assume that the success of AI-based predictive modeling means that it’s just going to completely replace that whole pipeline. That’s just fundamentally divorced from the reality of the world we live in today, and very likely to be divorced from the reality of the world that we’re going to be living in for the foreseeable future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Clara-based chipmaker described the system as “complete” for nowcasting and medium-range predictions that previously took hours on high-performance computing clusters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nvidia said the tools represent the first time AI has surpassed traditional, physics-based weather prediction models in short-term precipitation forecasting. The company added that developers across industries are already using Earth-2 to predict weather and “harness actionable insights.”\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/qo78lSBYi-U'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/qo78lSBYi-U'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>It’s a shot across the bow at other private AI developers, including Alphabet’s Google, Microsoft and Huawei Technologies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private-sector AI tools like Nvidia’s are welcome additions — not replacements — in a rapidly changing world, according to climate scientist Daniel Swain of UC Agriculture and Natural Resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swain said he is less concerned about the hallucinations that plague public-facing large language models than about AI weather modeling’s still unproven ability to predict edge cases based on historical data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes when it matters most — the very most extreme events that might be at the edge or outside of what we’ve seen historically — is precisely when we need the most accurate weather forecast,” Swain said. “We might not be there yet.” He added that the technology is rapidly advancing.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are real gains, in terms of scientific understanding as well as in prediction, and there’s need for continued caution,” said Noah Diffenbaugh, a professor and senior fellow at Stanford University’s Doerr School of Sustainability. But he struck a more cautionary note. “Other AI applications can produce inaccurate results, can produce results that are not grounded in reality. That’s a risk with these systems as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private developers trained their AI on a corpus of data that was largely publicly funded. While that bolsters the models’ credibility with scientists, it also raises troubling questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one, private developers are, by definition, concerned with profit — eventually, if not immediately. There is no guarantee they will not begin charging for access to their models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Within a university context, we have no profit motivation at all,” Diffenbaugh said. “We’re trying to understand how the world works. And we’re doing that within our time scale, a much longer time scale (than private developers). And I think the benefit that we can bring in our work is that we’re doing that work in the context of this rigorous, patient scientific evaluation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The primary question for Swain is whether optimism about end-to-end AI models could be used by Trump administration officials to justify ceding data collection and weather modeling entirely to the private sector, even as global warming dramatically alters the climate system, particularly in California, with its complex interplay of atmospheric rivers, marine layers, Sierra snowpack, wind patterns and wildfire risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Not only are we not there yet, not only do I think we won’t be there anytime soon, I’m not sure that we will ever get to that point,” Swain said. “It’s almost a category error to assume that the success of AI-based predictive modeling means that it’s just going to completely replace that whole pipeline. That’s just fundamentally divorced from the reality of the world we live in today, and very likely to be divorced from the reality of the world that we’re going to be living in for the foreseeable future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Steer Clear of AI Companion Toys for Kids, Another Advocacy Group Warns",
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"content": "\u003cp>Three voice-activated, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI-powered\u003c/a> toys tested by Common Sense Media researchers raised concerns that they were designed to engineer emotional attachment with young children and collect private data, according to the nonprofit’s report released Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The warning is the latest in a string from consumer advocates about the risks posed to children by artificial intelligence, including in the form of toys like stuffed animals or brightly colored plastic robots that act as chatbots, conversing and telling stories to children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unlike traditional toys, these devices present a range of new harms,” Common Sense Media researchers wrote in their \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/ai-toys\">report\u003c/a>, which tested the Grem, Bondu and Miko 3 toys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The children’s advocacy group recommended that parents not give AI companion toys to children 5 and younger, and it warned parents to exercise “extreme caution” even with children 6 to 13 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the group’s December survey of 1,004 parents of children ranging from infants to age 8, nearly half of parents have purchased or are considering purchasing these toys or similar ones for their children. The products are sold by major retailers like Walmart, Costco, Amazon and Target. One in 6 parents told Common Sense they have already purchased one, and 10% said they “definitely plan to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070893\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070893\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hyodol, the world’s first AI-based companion robot dolls, are being exhibited in the South Korean pavilion at the Mobile World Congress 2024 in Barcelona, Spain, on April 2, 2024. Created by a South Korean company, these dolls are designed to serve as social companions for the elderly and have been commercialized in several countries.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Common Sense Media is not usually in the business of saying, don’t use technology entirely,” said Robbie Torney, head of AI & digital assessments for Common Sense Media. “We really want to trust parents and empower them to make the best choices for their kids. But for under-5 children in particular, our testing showed a set of risks that are really a big developmental mismatch for where these young children are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media researchers tested the toys by creating child accounts for “users” ages 6 to 13, putting them through both everyday use and sensitive scenarios. Their team, including child development experts, evaluated everything from voice recognition and content accuracy to privacy practices, parental controls and whether the toys’ responses were developmentally appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though the toys are marketed as educational, more than a quarter of their responses in testing weren’t child-appropriate, the Common Sense report found. They included problematic content related to drugs, sex and risky activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our testing did show that these companies have put tremendous effort into guardrailing their chatbots,” Torney said. But “chatbots don’t understand context. They can’t make determinations about what a child actually means. If you ask about self-harm and then ask for dangerous chemicals, many of these devices will refuse the self-harm question, but won’t make the connection that dangerous chemicals might enable self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ritvik Sharma, chief growth officer at Miko, based in Mumbai, India, wrote that “child safety, privacy, and healthy development are foundational design requirements — not afterthoughts.” He also said the company was unable to reproduce the behaviors cited by Common Sense Media researchers “under normal operation,” sharing videos that showed Miko redirecting away from potentially problematic questions.[aside postID=news_12069286 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/OpenAI.jpg']“Miko’s conversational experience is powered by a proprietary, child-focused AI system developed specifically for young users, rather than adapted from general-purpose AI models,” Sharma added. “This allows us to evaluate responses for age suitability, emotional tone, and educational value before they reach a child.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, a spokesperson from Redwood-City-based Curio Interactive, which makes Grem, said the company’s toys “are designed with parent permission and control at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over a two-year beta period, we worked with approximately 2,000 families to develop a multi-tiered safety system that combines constrained conversational scope, age-appropriate design, layered filtering and refusal mechanisms, and continuous real-world monitoring, with safeguards enforced at multiple points in the interaction,” the spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Torney said parents need to ask themselves how much they trust the internet-connected companions not to cross developmentally appropriate lines into psychologically damaging territory when there’s no meaningful product safety regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the characteristics of under-5 children is that they have magical thinking, and what’s sometimes referred to as animism, the belief that objects may be real. They think about them differently than older children do,” Torney said. He acknowledged magical thinking can continue into later childhood as well, “which is why we’re still encouraging that extreme caution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Common Sense Media report comes after an \u003ca href=\"https://fairplayforkids.org/pf/aitoyadvisory\">advisory published in November\u003c/a> by the children’s advocacy group Fairplay strongly urged parents not to buy AI toys during the holiday season. The advisory was signed by more than 150 organizations, child psychiatrists and educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the new AI toys react contingently to young children,” wrote UC Berkeley professor Fei Xu, who directs the Berkeley Early Learning Lab. “That is, when a child says something, the AI toy says something back; if a child waves at the AI toy, it moves. This kind of social contingency is known to be very important for early social, emotional and language development. This raises the potential issue of young children being emotionally attached to these AI toys. More research is urgently needed to study this systematically.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to be exceptionally cautious when introducing understudied technologies with young children, whose biological and emotional minds are very vulnerable,” UCSF psychiatry and pediatrics professor Dr. Nicole Bush wrote. “While AI has the capacity for tremendous benefit to society, young children’s time is better spent with trusted adults and peers, or in constructive play or learning activities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1484px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070888\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1484\" height=\"492\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png 1484w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5-160x53.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1484px) 100vw, 1484px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A chat between a Common Sense Media tester and Miko 3, an AI toy. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, Common Sense Media and OpenAI announced they’re backing a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">consolidated effort\u003c/a> to put a measure on this November’s ballot in California that would institute AI chatbot guardrails for children. That effort is now in the signature-gathering stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A legislative measure that Common Sense backed, covering much of the same territory, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> at the end of last session. In his veto message, Newsom expressed concern that the bill could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, state Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, introduced \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB867\">Senate Bill 867\u003c/a>, which would establish a first-in-the-nation four-year moratorium on the sale and manufacture of toys with AI chatbots embedded in them, “until manufacturers have worked out the dangers embedded in them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to put the brakes on AI toys until they are proven safe for kids,” Padilla wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Three voice-activated, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI-powered\u003c/a> toys tested by Common Sense Media researchers raised concerns that they were designed to engineer emotional attachment with young children and collect private data, according to the nonprofit’s report released Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The warning is the latest in a string from consumer advocates about the risks posed to children by artificial intelligence, including in the form of toys like stuffed animals or brightly colored plastic robots that act as chatbots, conversing and telling stories to children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unlike traditional toys, these devices present a range of new harms,” Common Sense Media researchers wrote in their \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/ai-toys\">report\u003c/a>, which tested the Grem, Bondu and Miko 3 toys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The children’s advocacy group recommended that parents not give AI companion toys to children 5 and younger, and it warned parents to exercise “extreme caution” even with children 6 to 13 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the group’s December survey of 1,004 parents of children ranging from infants to age 8, nearly half of parents have purchased or are considering purchasing these toys or similar ones for their children. The products are sold by major retailers like Walmart, Costco, Amazon and Target. One in 6 parents told Common Sense they have already purchased one, and 10% said they “definitely plan to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070893\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070893\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hyodol, the world’s first AI-based companion robot dolls, are being exhibited in the South Korean pavilion at the Mobile World Congress 2024 in Barcelona, Spain, on April 2, 2024. Created by a South Korean company, these dolls are designed to serve as social companions for the elderly and have been commercialized in several countries.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Common Sense Media is not usually in the business of saying, don’t use technology entirely,” said Robbie Torney, head of AI & digital assessments for Common Sense Media. “We really want to trust parents and empower them to make the best choices for their kids. But for under-5 children in particular, our testing showed a set of risks that are really a big developmental mismatch for where these young children are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media researchers tested the toys by creating child accounts for “users” ages 6 to 13, putting them through both everyday use and sensitive scenarios. Their team, including child development experts, evaluated everything from voice recognition and content accuracy to privacy practices, parental controls and whether the toys’ responses were developmentally appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though the toys are marketed as educational, more than a quarter of their responses in testing weren’t child-appropriate, the Common Sense report found. They included problematic content related to drugs, sex and risky activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our testing did show that these companies have put tremendous effort into guardrailing their chatbots,” Torney said. But “chatbots don’t understand context. They can’t make determinations about what a child actually means. If you ask about self-harm and then ask for dangerous chemicals, many of these devices will refuse the self-harm question, but won’t make the connection that dangerous chemicals might enable self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ritvik Sharma, chief growth officer at Miko, based in Mumbai, India, wrote that “child safety, privacy, and healthy development are foundational design requirements — not afterthoughts.” He also said the company was unable to reproduce the behaviors cited by Common Sense Media researchers “under normal operation,” sharing videos that showed Miko redirecting away from potentially problematic questions.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Miko’s conversational experience is powered by a proprietary, child-focused AI system developed specifically for young users, rather than adapted from general-purpose AI models,” Sharma added. “This allows us to evaluate responses for age suitability, emotional tone, and educational value before they reach a child.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, a spokesperson from Redwood-City-based Curio Interactive, which makes Grem, said the company’s toys “are designed with parent permission and control at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over a two-year beta period, we worked with approximately 2,000 families to develop a multi-tiered safety system that combines constrained conversational scope, age-appropriate design, layered filtering and refusal mechanisms, and continuous real-world monitoring, with safeguards enforced at multiple points in the interaction,” the spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Torney said parents need to ask themselves how much they trust the internet-connected companions not to cross developmentally appropriate lines into psychologically damaging territory when there’s no meaningful product safety regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the characteristics of under-5 children is that they have magical thinking, and what’s sometimes referred to as animism, the belief that objects may be real. They think about them differently than older children do,” Torney said. He acknowledged magical thinking can continue into later childhood as well, “which is why we’re still encouraging that extreme caution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Common Sense Media report comes after an \u003ca href=\"https://fairplayforkids.org/pf/aitoyadvisory\">advisory published in November\u003c/a> by the children’s advocacy group Fairplay strongly urged parents not to buy AI toys during the holiday season. The advisory was signed by more than 150 organizations, child psychiatrists and educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the new AI toys react contingently to young children,” wrote UC Berkeley professor Fei Xu, who directs the Berkeley Early Learning Lab. “That is, when a child says something, the AI toy says something back; if a child waves at the AI toy, it moves. This kind of social contingency is known to be very important for early social, emotional and language development. This raises the potential issue of young children being emotionally attached to these AI toys. More research is urgently needed to study this systematically.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to be exceptionally cautious when introducing understudied technologies with young children, whose biological and emotional minds are very vulnerable,” UCSF psychiatry and pediatrics professor Dr. Nicole Bush wrote. “While AI has the capacity for tremendous benefit to society, young children’s time is better spent with trusted adults and peers, or in constructive play or learning activities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1484px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070888\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1484\" height=\"492\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png 1484w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5-160x53.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1484px) 100vw, 1484px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A chat between a Common Sense Media tester and Miko 3, an AI toy. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, Common Sense Media and OpenAI announced they’re backing a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">consolidated effort\u003c/a> to put a measure on this November’s ballot in California that would institute AI chatbot guardrails for children. That effort is now in the signature-gathering stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A legislative measure that Common Sense backed, covering much of the same territory, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> at the end of last session. In his veto message, Newsom expressed concern that the bill could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, state Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, introduced \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB867\">Senate Bill 867\u003c/a>, which would establish a first-in-the-nation four-year moratorium on the sale and manufacture of toys with AI chatbots embedded in them, “until manufacturers have worked out the dangers embedded in them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to put the brakes on AI toys until they are proven safe for kids,” Padilla wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The health care industry has often been slow to adopt new technology — but not when it comes to AI. And as Kaiser Permanente’s mental health clinicians in Northern California negotiate their latest contract with the company, they’re looking for reassurance that AI isn’t coming for their jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Links:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999553/will-ai-replace-your-therapist-kaiser-wont-say-no\">Will AI Replace Your Therapist? Kaiser Won’t Say No\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3808554854\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. So I went to the doctor’s the other day, and as expected, the nurse asked some pretty basic questions. How tall am I? Do I exercise? Any history of cancer in the family? Then, when the doctor walked in, she asked a pretty surprising question. Would it be okay if they used some sort of automated transcriber to take notes on my visit? An automated transcriber, as in AI, I asked. Turns out AI is everywhere, including in the doctor’s office. Some in the healthcare industry say AI is making their lives easier. But others, like the mental healthcare workers at Kaiser are also worried that it could replace them entirely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:01:05] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full-blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to provide, you know, chat-based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:20] Today, will AI replace your therapist? And why the debate at Kaiser is worth watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:38] Health care is an industry that is usually pretty slow to adopt new technology, but the experts that I talk to say that AI is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] April Dembosky is a healthcare correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:52] Health systems are really excited about the potential that AI has primarily in this moment to improve diagnostics, but also to cut down on paperwork and administrative tasks. So if you go see a medical doctor at Sutter or Kaiser right now, very likely you have been or very soon will be asked if it’s okay for the doctor to use an AI note taker where they will use their cell phone. To record the interaction and then the AI will summarize and write notes for your medical chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Pitt \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] I have an app on my phone that can listen to our conversation and the details of my physical exam and write it all up in your medical record. Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:02:39] If folks out there are watching The Pitt, this actually came up in episode two. So the episode that just came out last week. So there’s a new doctor in the ER and she’s introducing the residents to the concept of AI note takers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] What do you think?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:56] Well, I don’t think it’s a cardiac.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:58] I mean, what do you think of the app?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>00:03:00] I mean, it’s hard to say without seeing the full thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:02] Take a look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:04] Oh my God, do you know how much time this will save?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:07] And so she takes out her cell phone in the exam room and tells a patient, you know, it’s going to record their interaction. And afterward they walk out, they walk over to a computer and the AI has already written a summary of the exam in the patient’s chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:24] Well, excuse me, it says here she takes risperdol and antipsychotics. She takes restoril when needed for sleep, so is that, um…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] AI, almost intelligent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:34] You must always carefully proofread and correct the minor errors. It’s excellent, but not perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:44] That’s one of the ways that AI is most present in our healthcare right now. I mean, I have friends in the Bay Area who work in healthcare who, you know, I saw some for dinner a little while ago and you know they said, I am here tonight because of the AI note taker. You know, like because the AI notetaker like did my charting for me, I am able to be here and hanging out with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:12] Wow, that is so interesting. And yeah, I mean, we’re wrestling with the role of AI in our healthcare and popular culture, but also in real life right now. I know this is a big, big question that is especially relevant for mental healthcare workers in Northern California right now, specifically at Kaiser. Can you explain? April, why this is such a relevant conversation among mental health care workers right now in particular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] Sure, so mental health clinicians at Kaiser are in contract negotiations right now. They’ve actually been in bargaining for this next contract for about six months now. So it’s been kind of dragging along. And one of the sticking points is actually around AI. So, mental health workers, they know that AI is here to stay in health care, but when it comes to mental health care they want some simple guardrails. They want to make sure that they are part of seeing that AI is rolled out responsibly in a way that protects patients’ privacy, but also in a ways that protects their own jobs. And so one of the things that they’ve asked for in their contract is language that says specifically any introduction of new AI tools will be used only to assist therapists, but it will not be used to replace them. To them, I think this sounds like a really reasonable ask, but they were really surprised when Kaiser said no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] So again, they want flexibility to increase their use of AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:06] I talked to Ilana Marcucci-Morris. She’s a clinical social worker at Kaiser. She works in the intake department, and she’s a member of the union that is bargaining this contract. It’s called the National Union of Health Care Workers, NUHW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:22] When we ask that AI not replace us, they will not put that language in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] And when I talk to her, she says, I’m a millennial, I love gadgets, I love tools, you know, I get it. We just want some simple protections here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to not just skip the licensed triage, but to provide, you know, chat based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:54] One of the reasons they’re surprised is because their sister union in Southern California had asked for the same language and Kaiser agreed to it. And that contract was signed last May. And so basically, you know, a month or so after signing a contract that included this language, Kaiser was backing off saying, we don’t wanna commit to that anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:07:20] I mean, they’ll say, no, that’s not our intention. But when we say, hey, can you put that it’s not your intention in the contract? Well, we can’t predict the future. We need to maintain flexibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] So it sounds like these mental health care workers are afraid for their jobs, but some of this technology is already being used. What is it about these tools that they are so concerned about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] Basically, Kaiser is excited about getting clinicians to use this note-taking software so that it will free them up to see more patients in a day. But clinicians are really worried about this. I think they’re worried about the privacy and data security, where are these recordings going, how long are they kept, how well are they protected, who else can see them. But specifically, I think they’re also really concerned about how this technology could influence the patient interaction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:08:27] I wouldn’t want a recording of my disagreements with a family member or my trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:08:34] And so what Ilana says is talking to your doctor about a fever or a skin condition, it’s really different from talking to your therapist about really vulnerable, really emotional things that are going on in your life. And they’re concerned that patients, if they know they’re being recorded, that it might cause them to hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:00] A big part of our work is that human connection and rapport.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:09:08] So Kaiser clinicians are basically saying, look, you know, right now this technology is optional for us to use, but we’re really worried that Kaiser is going to, you know, try to force us to use it, perhaps even in clinical situations where we think it could be harmful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:27] Having a human being in your court that is trained and is a professional giving you warmth and encouragement and evidence-based direction is something that technology just can’t replace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] AI has already taken roles that people used to have at Kaiser, like doing intake for mental health care. Patients now have the option of doing an e-visit through the app, where you click through a series of questions and the algorithm comes up with a score and recommends where you go next. So far, there isn’t a Kaiser therapist chatbot. Though it hasn’t stopped a lot of people from seeking help for their problems outside of the healthcare system altogether. And April, we’re also in an environment where many people are seeking out mental health help through chatbots, including teenagers. Are patient preferences around this changing as well? And how do mental health experts respond to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] In the last few years, we’ve seen a huge rise of consumer facing chatbots and these are not therapists to be clear, but people are starting to use them as therapists. This is a trend that is already taken off because they are available immediately. You can tell them how to interact with you and they are always there. There are clinical psychologists who have. You know, been working on a verified evidence-based, widely tested kind of AI chat bot for therapy for at least six years now. And what they will tell you is it takes a really, really long time to develop a proven product like that, that, you know actually conforms to the standards of delivering therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:11:33] We cannot institute any of this on a large scale population level without studying it first and making sure it’s safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:11:42] Jodi Halpern is a bioethics professor at UC Berkeley. Jodi Helpern talks about the potential that chatbots have in cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a particular kind of therapy that tends to be a little bit more formal, a little more formulaic, but she’s very circumspect when it comes to relational therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:04] In the meeting with an empathic human face-to-face, there is the possibility for the patient really to develop trust. And that’s actually a powerful element in improving health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:12:20] Chatbots are not very good at this, especially consumer-facing chatbots are designed to be affirmative. Sycophantic is the word that experts use. They’re just designed to validate everything you say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:40] We need more skillful human workforce in the mental health area to meet our unmet needs. We need AI to unburden the skillful human force through ambient medical records and other forms that don’t have to be intrusive or overly privacy invading, but they can take the workload off clinicians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:06] Coming back to Kaiser, April, many of their employees are already using AI. No Kaiser AI therapists as of now, although many of the workers like Alana are worried that there could be. Has Kaiser had any response to this story or any thoughts on AI or contract negotiations that they’ve shared with you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:13:28] Kaiser has not had a lot to say about this. I’ve interacted with them a fair amount asking for interviews multiple times, and they have not been willing to sit down and talk about this, they shared a statement. It says in part that artificial intelligence tools at Kaiser don’t make medical decisions. Our physicians and care teams are always at the center of decision-making with our patients. AI does not replace human assessment and care, but they do see artificial intelligence holding, as they say, significant potential to benefit healthcare by supporting better diagnostics, enhancing patient-clinician relationships, optimizing clinicians’ time, and ensuring fairness in care experiences and health outcomes by addressing individual needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:23] And I mean, it does seem like consumer trends around AI are one thing, April, but it also seems like these sort of large healthcare systems like Kaiser have a really big role to play in terms of the role that AI could play in the future as well. I mean why do you think it’s important to watch what Kaiser does from here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:14:48] Kaiser is a large healthcare institution. It has power. It can influence how quickly and how broadly new technologies are adopted in a way that could have impact on the industry as a whole. And it’s also one of the very few systems that has a mental health union that’s trying to influence that process. So I think that those things put together just make it a really interesting health system to watch. For the way that that influence works on how patients access healthcare and how mental health clinicians do their jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The health care industry has often been slow to adopt new technology — but not when it comes to AI. And as Kaiser Permanente’s mental health clinicians in Northern California negotiate their latest contract with the company, they’re looking for reassurance that AI isn’t coming for their jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Links:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999553/will-ai-replace-your-therapist-kaiser-wont-say-no\">Will AI Replace Your Therapist? Kaiser Won’t Say No\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3808554854\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. So I went to the doctor’s the other day, and as expected, the nurse asked some pretty basic questions. How tall am I? Do I exercise? Any history of cancer in the family? Then, when the doctor walked in, she asked a pretty surprising question. Would it be okay if they used some sort of automated transcriber to take notes on my visit? An automated transcriber, as in AI, I asked. Turns out AI is everywhere, including in the doctor’s office. Some in the healthcare industry say AI is making their lives easier. But others, like the mental healthcare workers at Kaiser are also worried that it could replace them entirely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:01:05] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full-blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to provide, you know, chat-based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:20] Today, will AI replace your therapist? And why the debate at Kaiser is worth watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:38] Health care is an industry that is usually pretty slow to adopt new technology, but the experts that I talk to say that AI is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] April Dembosky is a healthcare correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:52] Health systems are really excited about the potential that AI has primarily in this moment to improve diagnostics, but also to cut down on paperwork and administrative tasks. So if you go see a medical doctor at Sutter or Kaiser right now, very likely you have been or very soon will be asked if it’s okay for the doctor to use an AI note taker where they will use their cell phone. To record the interaction and then the AI will summarize and write notes for your medical chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Pitt \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] I have an app on my phone that can listen to our conversation and the details of my physical exam and write it all up in your medical record. Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:02:39] If folks out there are watching The Pitt, this actually came up in episode two. So the episode that just came out last week. So there’s a new doctor in the ER and she’s introducing the residents to the concept of AI note takers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] What do you think?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:56] Well, I don’t think it’s a cardiac.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:58] I mean, what do you think of the app?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>00:03:00] I mean, it’s hard to say without seeing the full thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:02] Take a look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:04] Oh my God, do you know how much time this will save?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:07] And so she takes out her cell phone in the exam room and tells a patient, you know, it’s going to record their interaction. And afterward they walk out, they walk over to a computer and the AI has already written a summary of the exam in the patient’s chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:24] Well, excuse me, it says here she takes risperdol and antipsychotics. She takes restoril when needed for sleep, so is that, um…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] AI, almost intelligent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:34] You must always carefully proofread and correct the minor errors. It’s excellent, but not perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:44] That’s one of the ways that AI is most present in our healthcare right now. I mean, I have friends in the Bay Area who work in healthcare who, you know, I saw some for dinner a little while ago and you know they said, I am here tonight because of the AI note taker. You know, like because the AI notetaker like did my charting for me, I am able to be here and hanging out with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:12] Wow, that is so interesting. And yeah, I mean, we’re wrestling with the role of AI in our healthcare and popular culture, but also in real life right now. I know this is a big, big question that is especially relevant for mental healthcare workers in Northern California right now, specifically at Kaiser. Can you explain? April, why this is such a relevant conversation among mental health care workers right now in particular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] Sure, so mental health clinicians at Kaiser are in contract negotiations right now. They’ve actually been in bargaining for this next contract for about six months now. So it’s been kind of dragging along. And one of the sticking points is actually around AI. So, mental health workers, they know that AI is here to stay in health care, but when it comes to mental health care they want some simple guardrails. They want to make sure that they are part of seeing that AI is rolled out responsibly in a way that protects patients’ privacy, but also in a ways that protects their own jobs. And so one of the things that they’ve asked for in their contract is language that says specifically any introduction of new AI tools will be used only to assist therapists, but it will not be used to replace them. To them, I think this sounds like a really reasonable ask, but they were really surprised when Kaiser said no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] So again, they want flexibility to increase their use of AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:06] I talked to Ilana Marcucci-Morris. She’s a clinical social worker at Kaiser. She works in the intake department, and she’s a member of the union that is bargaining this contract. It’s called the National Union of Health Care Workers, NUHW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:22] When we ask that AI not replace us, they will not put that language in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] And when I talk to her, she says, I’m a millennial, I love gadgets, I love tools, you know, I get it. We just want some simple protections here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to not just skip the licensed triage, but to provide, you know, chat based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:54] One of the reasons they’re surprised is because their sister union in Southern California had asked for the same language and Kaiser agreed to it. And that contract was signed last May. And so basically, you know, a month or so after signing a contract that included this language, Kaiser was backing off saying, we don’t wanna commit to that anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:07:20] I mean, they’ll say, no, that’s not our intention. But when we say, hey, can you put that it’s not your intention in the contract? Well, we can’t predict the future. We need to maintain flexibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] So it sounds like these mental health care workers are afraid for their jobs, but some of this technology is already being used. What is it about these tools that they are so concerned about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] Basically, Kaiser is excited about getting clinicians to use this note-taking software so that it will free them up to see more patients in a day. But clinicians are really worried about this. I think they’re worried about the privacy and data security, where are these recordings going, how long are they kept, how well are they protected, who else can see them. But specifically, I think they’re also really concerned about how this technology could influence the patient interaction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:08:27] I wouldn’t want a recording of my disagreements with a family member or my trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:08:34] And so what Ilana says is talking to your doctor about a fever or a skin condition, it’s really different from talking to your therapist about really vulnerable, really emotional things that are going on in your life. And they’re concerned that patients, if they know they’re being recorded, that it might cause them to hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:00] A big part of our work is that human connection and rapport.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:09:08] So Kaiser clinicians are basically saying, look, you know, right now this technology is optional for us to use, but we’re really worried that Kaiser is going to, you know, try to force us to use it, perhaps even in clinical situations where we think it could be harmful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:27] Having a human being in your court that is trained and is a professional giving you warmth and encouragement and evidence-based direction is something that technology just can’t replace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] AI has already taken roles that people used to have at Kaiser, like doing intake for mental health care. Patients now have the option of doing an e-visit through the app, where you click through a series of questions and the algorithm comes up with a score and recommends where you go next. So far, there isn’t a Kaiser therapist chatbot. Though it hasn’t stopped a lot of people from seeking help for their problems outside of the healthcare system altogether. And April, we’re also in an environment where many people are seeking out mental health help through chatbots, including teenagers. Are patient preferences around this changing as well? And how do mental health experts respond to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] In the last few years, we’ve seen a huge rise of consumer facing chatbots and these are not therapists to be clear, but people are starting to use them as therapists. This is a trend that is already taken off because they are available immediately. You can tell them how to interact with you and they are always there. There are clinical psychologists who have. You know, been working on a verified evidence-based, widely tested kind of AI chat bot for therapy for at least six years now. And what they will tell you is it takes a really, really long time to develop a proven product like that, that, you know actually conforms to the standards of delivering therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:11:33] We cannot institute any of this on a large scale population level without studying it first and making sure it’s safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:11:42] Jodi Halpern is a bioethics professor at UC Berkeley. Jodi Helpern talks about the potential that chatbots have in cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a particular kind of therapy that tends to be a little bit more formal, a little more formulaic, but she’s very circumspect when it comes to relational therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:04] In the meeting with an empathic human face-to-face, there is the possibility for the patient really to develop trust. And that’s actually a powerful element in improving health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:12:20] Chatbots are not very good at this, especially consumer-facing chatbots are designed to be affirmative. Sycophantic is the word that experts use. They’re just designed to validate everything you say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:40] We need more skillful human workforce in the mental health area to meet our unmet needs. We need AI to unburden the skillful human force through ambient medical records and other forms that don’t have to be intrusive or overly privacy invading, but they can take the workload off clinicians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:06] Coming back to Kaiser, April, many of their employees are already using AI. No Kaiser AI therapists as of now, although many of the workers like Alana are worried that there could be. Has Kaiser had any response to this story or any thoughts on AI or contract negotiations that they’ve shared with you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:13:28] Kaiser has not had a lot to say about this. I’ve interacted with them a fair amount asking for interviews multiple times, and they have not been willing to sit down and talk about this, they shared a statement. It says in part that artificial intelligence tools at Kaiser don’t make medical decisions. Our physicians and care teams are always at the center of decision-making with our patients. AI does not replace human assessment and care, but they do see artificial intelligence holding, as they say, significant potential to benefit healthcare by supporting better diagnostics, enhancing patient-clinician relationships, optimizing clinicians’ time, and ensuring fairness in care experiences and health outcomes by addressing individual needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:23] And I mean, it does seem like consumer trends around AI are one thing, April, but it also seems like these sort of large healthcare systems like Kaiser have a really big role to play in terms of the role that AI could play in the future as well. I mean why do you think it’s important to watch what Kaiser does from here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:14:48] Kaiser is a large healthcare institution. It has power. It can influence how quickly and how broadly new technologies are adopted in a way that could have impact on the industry as a whole. And it’s also one of the very few systems that has a mental health union that’s trying to influence that process. So I think that those things put together just make it a really interesting health system to watch. For the way that that influence works on how patients access healthcare and how mental health clinicians do their jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "california-investigates-elon-musks-ai-company-after-avalanche-of-complaints-about-sexual-content",
"title": "California Investigates Elon Musk’s AI Company After ‘Avalanche’ of Complaints About Sexual Content",
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"headTitle": "California Investigates Elon Musk’s AI Company After ‘Avalanche’ of Complaints About Sexual Content | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California Attorney General \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/rob-bonta\">Rob Bonta\u003c/a> today announced an investigation into how and whether Elon Musk’s X and xAI broke the law in the past few weeks by enabling the spread of naked or sexual imagery without consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>xAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/xai-grok-child-sexualized-photos-59cabffe?gaa_at=eafs&gaa_n=AWEtsqeXFpqFQcrxsO5WTkfUv06n_yUF6SLsaiidykNtXuu99sfcWdIeGHE6&gaa_ts=6967eaf6&gaa_sig=Xo5Vee-O05o95LbH9S5pemMTlPI6DdA5iZKEj5SEbQPtBBwZQuX9-vC1SF3WvpfVZT6YyP8zLGAprQ5MlwHhpQ%3D%3D\">reportedly\u003c/a> updated its Grok artificial intelligence tool last month to allow image editing. Users on the social media platform X, which is connected to the tool, began using Grok to remove clothing in pictures of women and children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The avalanche of reports detailing the non-consensual sexually explicit material that xAI has produced and posted online in recent weeks is shocking,” Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-launches-investigation-xai-grok-over-undressed-sexual-ai\">said in a written statement\u003c/a>. “This material, which depicts women and children in nude and sexually explicit situations, has been used to harass people across the internet. I urge xAI to take immediate action to ensure this goes no further.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta urged Californians who want to report depictions of them or their children undressed or commiting sexual acts to visit \u003ca href=\"http://oag.ca.gov/report\">oag.ca.gov/report\u003c/a>. In an emailed response, xAI did not address questions about the investigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Research \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-01-07/musk-s-grok-ai-generated-thousands-of-undressed-images-per-hour-on-x?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2Nzc5MDk4NywiZXhwIjoxNzY4Mzk1Nzg3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUOEhRS0hLR0lGUE8wMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJGRUIzODlCNUI2ODI0RTY0QjY5MENEODE1RTBDREZGRCJ9.3B4JWnmqmXFC3DOqhs11h99g5gNzi4j_poKAHLuWdrY&leadSource=uverify%20wall\">obtained by Bloomberg\u003c/a> found that X now produces more non-consensual naked or sexual imagery than any other website online. In a posting on X, Musk promised “consequences” for people who made illegal content with the tool. On Friday, Grok limited image editing to paying subscribers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One potential route for Bonta to prosecute xAI is a law that \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">went into effect\u003c/a> just two weeks ago \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab621\">creating legal liability for the creation and distribution\u003c/a> of “deepfake” pornography.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12013478\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12013478\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Attorney General Rob Bonta speaks with KQED politics reporters Marisa Lagos and Scott Shafer for Political Breakdown at the KQED offices in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>X and xAI appear to be violating the provisions of that law, known as AB 621, said Sam Dordulian, who previously worked in the sex crimes unit of the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office but today works in private practice as a lawyer for people in cases involving deepfakes or revenge porn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, author of the law, told CalMatters in a statement last week that she reached out to prosecutors, including the attorney general’s office and the city attorney of San Francisco, to remind them that they can act under the law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s happening on X, Bauer-Kahan said, is what AB 621 was designed to address.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Real women are having their images manipulated without consent, and the psychological and reputational harm is devastating,” the San Ramon Democrat said in an emailed statement. “Underage children are having their images used to create child sexual abuse material, and these websites are knowingly facilitating it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A global concern\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s inquiry also comes shortly after a \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/cagovernor/status/2011489740026232891\">call for an investigation\u003c/a> by Gov. Gavin Newsom, backlash from regulators in the European Union and India and bans on X in Malaysia, Indonesia, and potentially the United Kingdom. As Grok app downloads \u003ca href=\"https://sherwood.news/tech/grok-has-been-climbing-apple-and-googles-app-store-rankings-amid-calls-to/\">rise in Apple and Google app store\u003c/a>s, lawmakers and advocates are calling for the smartphone makers to prohibit the application.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why Grok created the feature the way it did and how it will respond to the controversy around it is unclear, and answers may not be forthcoming, since \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-01-07/musk-s-grok-ai-generated-thousands-of-undressed-images-per-hour-on-x?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2Nzc5MDk4NywiZXhwIjoxNzY4Mzk1Nzg3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUOEhRS0hLR0lGUE8wMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJGRUIzODlCNUI2ODI0RTY0QjY5MENEODE1RTBDREZGRCJ9.3B4JWnmqmXFC3DOqhs11h99g5gNzi4j_poKAHLuWdrY&leadSource=uverify%20wall\">an analysis recently concluded\u003c/a> that it’s the least transparent of major AI systems available today. xAI did not address questions about the investigation from CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of concrete harm from deepfakes is piling up. In 2024, the FBI warned that the use of \u003ca href=\"https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/nashville/news/sextortion-a-growing-threat-targeting-minors\">deepfake tools to extort young people is a growing problem\u003c/a> that has led to instances of self-harm and suicide. Multiple audits have found that \u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/laion-and-the-challenges-of-preventing-ai-generated-csam/\">child sexual abuse material is inside the training data of AI models\u003c/a>, making them capable of generating vulgar photos. A \u003ca href=\"https://cdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/FINAL-UPDATED-CDT-2024-NCII-Polling-Slide-Deck.pdf\">2024 Center for Democracy and Technology survey\u003c/a> found that 15% of high school students have heard of or seen sexually explicit imagery of someone they know at school in the past year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The investigation announced today is the latest action by the attorney general to push AI companies to keep kids safe. Late last year, Bonta endorsed a bill that would have prevented chatbots that talk about self-harm and engage in sexually explicit conversations from interacting with people under 18.[aside postID=news_12064374 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/TeslaFremontGetty.jpg']He also joined attorneys general from 44 other states in sending a letter that questions why companies like Meta and OpenAI allow their chatbots to have sexually inappropriate conversations with minors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has passed roughly half a dozen laws since 2019 to protect people from deepfakes. The \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab621\">new law by Bauer-Kahan\u003c/a> amends and strengthens a 2019 law, most significantly by allowing district attorneys to bring cases against companies that “recklessly aid and abet” the distribution of deepfakes without the consent of the person depicted nude or committing sexual acts. That means the average person can ask the attorney general or the district attorney where they live to file a case on their behalf. It also increases the maximum amount that a judge can award a person from $150,000 to $250,000. Under the law, a public prosecutor is not required to prove that an individual depicted in an AI-generated nude or sexual image suffered actual harm to bring a case to court. Websites that refuse to comply within 30 days can face penalties of $25,000 per violation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to those measures, two 2024 laws (\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240ab1831\">AB 1831\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1381?slug=CA_202320240SB1381\">SB 1381\u003c/a>) expand the state’s definition of child pornography to make possession or distribution of artificially-generated child sexual abuse material illegal. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb981\">Another required\u003c/a> social media platforms to give people an easy way to request the immediate removal of a deepfake, and defines the posting of such material as a form of digital identity theft. A California law limiting the use of deepfakes in elections was signed into law last year, but was \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/08/05/elon-musk-x-court-win-california-deepfake-law-00494936\">struck down by a federal judge last summer\u003c/a> following a lawsuit by X and Elon Musk.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Future reforms\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every new state law helps give lawyers like Dordulian a new avenue to address harmful uses of deepfakes, but he said more needs to be done to help people protect themselves. He said his clients face challenges proving violation of existing laws since they require distribution of explicit materials, for example, with a messaging app or social media platform, for protections to kick in. In his experience, people who use nudify apps typically know each other, so distribution doesn’t always take place, and if it does, it can be hard to prove.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, he said, he has a client who works as a nanny who alleges that the father of the kids she takes care of made images of her using photos she posted on Instagram. The nanny found the images on his iPad. This discovery was disturbing for her and caused her emotional trauma, but since he can’t use deepfake laws, he has to sue on the basis of negligence or emotional distress, and laws that were never created to address deepfakes. Similarly, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/09/27/nudify-ai-generated-deepfake-fbi.html\">victims told CNBC last year\u003c/a> that the distinction between creating and distributing deepfakes left a gap in the law in a number of U.S. states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The law needs to keep up with what’s really happening on the ground and what women are experiencing, which is just the simple act of creation itself is the problem,” Dordulian said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An iPhone screen displays the Grok logo on the Grok AI app on January 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>California is at the forefront of passing laws to protect people from deepfakes, but existing law isn’t meeting the moment, said Jennifer Gibson, cofounder and director of \u003ca href=\"https://psst.org/\">Psst\u003c/a>, a group created a little over a year ago that provides pro bono legal services to tech and AI workers interested in whistleblowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/12/new-ai-regulation/\">California law that went into effect Jan. 1\u003c/a> protects whistleblowers inside AI companies but only if they work on catastrophic risk that can kill more than 50 people or cause more than $1 billion in damages. If the law protected people who work on deepfakes, former X employees who \u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-grok-explicit-content-data-annotation-2025-9?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email\">detailed witnessing Grok generating illegal sexually explicit material last year to Business Insider\u003c/a> would, Gibson said, have had protections if they shared the information with authorities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There needs to be a lot more protection for exactly this kind of scenario in which an insider sees that this is foreseeable, knows that this is going to happen, and they need somewhere to go to report to both to keep the company accountable and protect the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/01/california-investigates-deepfakes-elon-musk-company/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California Attorney General \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/rob-bonta\">Rob Bonta\u003c/a> today announced an investigation into how and whether Elon Musk’s X and xAI broke the law in the past few weeks by enabling the spread of naked or sexual imagery without consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>xAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/xai-grok-child-sexualized-photos-59cabffe?gaa_at=eafs&gaa_n=AWEtsqeXFpqFQcrxsO5WTkfUv06n_yUF6SLsaiidykNtXuu99sfcWdIeGHE6&gaa_ts=6967eaf6&gaa_sig=Xo5Vee-O05o95LbH9S5pemMTlPI6DdA5iZKEj5SEbQPtBBwZQuX9-vC1SF3WvpfVZT6YyP8zLGAprQ5MlwHhpQ%3D%3D\">reportedly\u003c/a> updated its Grok artificial intelligence tool last month to allow image editing. Users on the social media platform X, which is connected to the tool, began using Grok to remove clothing in pictures of women and children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The avalanche of reports detailing the non-consensual sexually explicit material that xAI has produced and posted online in recent weeks is shocking,” Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-launches-investigation-xai-grok-over-undressed-sexual-ai\">said in a written statement\u003c/a>. “This material, which depicts women and children in nude and sexually explicit situations, has been used to harass people across the internet. I urge xAI to take immediate action to ensure this goes no further.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta urged Californians who want to report depictions of them or their children undressed or commiting sexual acts to visit \u003ca href=\"http://oag.ca.gov/report\">oag.ca.gov/report\u003c/a>. In an emailed response, xAI did not address questions about the investigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Research \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-01-07/musk-s-grok-ai-generated-thousands-of-undressed-images-per-hour-on-x?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2Nzc5MDk4NywiZXhwIjoxNzY4Mzk1Nzg3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUOEhRS0hLR0lGUE8wMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJGRUIzODlCNUI2ODI0RTY0QjY5MENEODE1RTBDREZGRCJ9.3B4JWnmqmXFC3DOqhs11h99g5gNzi4j_poKAHLuWdrY&leadSource=uverify%20wall\">obtained by Bloomberg\u003c/a> found that X now produces more non-consensual naked or sexual imagery than any other website online. In a posting on X, Musk promised “consequences” for people who made illegal content with the tool. On Friday, Grok limited image editing to paying subscribers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One potential route for Bonta to prosecute xAI is a law that \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">went into effect\u003c/a> just two weeks ago \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab621\">creating legal liability for the creation and distribution\u003c/a> of “deepfake” pornography.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12013478\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12013478\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/241107-ATTORNEYGENERALBONTA-09-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Attorney General Rob Bonta speaks with KQED politics reporters Marisa Lagos and Scott Shafer for Political Breakdown at the KQED offices in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>X and xAI appear to be violating the provisions of that law, known as AB 621, said Sam Dordulian, who previously worked in the sex crimes unit of the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office but today works in private practice as a lawyer for people in cases involving deepfakes or revenge porn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, author of the law, told CalMatters in a statement last week that she reached out to prosecutors, including the attorney general’s office and the city attorney of San Francisco, to remind them that they can act under the law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s happening on X, Bauer-Kahan said, is what AB 621 was designed to address.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Real women are having their images manipulated without consent, and the psychological and reputational harm is devastating,” the San Ramon Democrat said in an emailed statement. “Underage children are having their images used to create child sexual abuse material, and these websites are knowingly facilitating it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A global concern\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s inquiry also comes shortly after a \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/cagovernor/status/2011489740026232891\">call for an investigation\u003c/a> by Gov. Gavin Newsom, backlash from regulators in the European Union and India and bans on X in Malaysia, Indonesia, and potentially the United Kingdom. As Grok app downloads \u003ca href=\"https://sherwood.news/tech/grok-has-been-climbing-apple-and-googles-app-store-rankings-amid-calls-to/\">rise in Apple and Google app store\u003c/a>s, lawmakers and advocates are calling for the smartphone makers to prohibit the application.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why Grok created the feature the way it did and how it will respond to the controversy around it is unclear, and answers may not be forthcoming, since \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-01-07/musk-s-grok-ai-generated-thousands-of-undressed-images-per-hour-on-x?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2Nzc5MDk4NywiZXhwIjoxNzY4Mzk1Nzg3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUOEhRS0hLR0lGUE8wMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJGRUIzODlCNUI2ODI0RTY0QjY5MENEODE1RTBDREZGRCJ9.3B4JWnmqmXFC3DOqhs11h99g5gNzi4j_poKAHLuWdrY&leadSource=uverify%20wall\">an analysis recently concluded\u003c/a> that it’s the least transparent of major AI systems available today. xAI did not address questions about the investigation from CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of concrete harm from deepfakes is piling up. In 2024, the FBI warned that the use of \u003ca href=\"https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/nashville/news/sextortion-a-growing-threat-targeting-minors\">deepfake tools to extort young people is a growing problem\u003c/a> that has led to instances of self-harm and suicide. Multiple audits have found that \u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/laion-and-the-challenges-of-preventing-ai-generated-csam/\">child sexual abuse material is inside the training data of AI models\u003c/a>, making them capable of generating vulgar photos. A \u003ca href=\"https://cdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/FINAL-UPDATED-CDT-2024-NCII-Polling-Slide-Deck.pdf\">2024 Center for Democracy and Technology survey\u003c/a> found that 15% of high school students have heard of or seen sexually explicit imagery of someone they know at school in the past year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The investigation announced today is the latest action by the attorney general to push AI companies to keep kids safe. Late last year, Bonta endorsed a bill that would have prevented chatbots that talk about self-harm and engage in sexually explicit conversations from interacting with people under 18.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>He also joined attorneys general from 44 other states in sending a letter that questions why companies like Meta and OpenAI allow their chatbots to have sexually inappropriate conversations with minors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has passed roughly half a dozen laws since 2019 to protect people from deepfakes. The \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab621\">new law by Bauer-Kahan\u003c/a> amends and strengthens a 2019 law, most significantly by allowing district attorneys to bring cases against companies that “recklessly aid and abet” the distribution of deepfakes without the consent of the person depicted nude or committing sexual acts. That means the average person can ask the attorney general or the district attorney where they live to file a case on their behalf. It also increases the maximum amount that a judge can award a person from $150,000 to $250,000. Under the law, a public prosecutor is not required to prove that an individual depicted in an AI-generated nude or sexual image suffered actual harm to bring a case to court. Websites that refuse to comply within 30 days can face penalties of $25,000 per violation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to those measures, two 2024 laws (\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240ab1831\">AB 1831\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1381?slug=CA_202320240SB1381\">SB 1381\u003c/a>) expand the state’s definition of child pornography to make possession or distribution of artificially-generated child sexual abuse material illegal. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb981\">Another required\u003c/a> social media platforms to give people an easy way to request the immediate removal of a deepfake, and defines the posting of such material as a form of digital identity theft. A California law limiting the use of deepfakes in elections was signed into law last year, but was \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/08/05/elon-musk-x-court-win-california-deepfake-law-00494936\">struck down by a federal judge last summer\u003c/a> following a lawsuit by X and Elon Musk.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Future reforms\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every new state law helps give lawyers like Dordulian a new avenue to address harmful uses of deepfakes, but he said more needs to be done to help people protect themselves. He said his clients face challenges proving violation of existing laws since they require distribution of explicit materials, for example, with a messaging app or social media platform, for protections to kick in. In his experience, people who use nudify apps typically know each other, so distribution doesn’t always take place, and if it does, it can be hard to prove.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, he said, he has a client who works as a nanny who alleges that the father of the kids she takes care of made images of her using photos she posted on Instagram. The nanny found the images on his iPad. This discovery was disturbing for her and caused her emotional trauma, but since he can’t use deepfake laws, he has to sue on the basis of negligence or emotional distress, and laws that were never created to address deepfakes. Similarly, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/09/27/nudify-ai-generated-deepfake-fbi.html\">victims told CNBC last year\u003c/a> that the distinction between creating and distributing deepfakes left a gap in the law in a number of U.S. states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The law needs to keep up with what’s really happening on the ground and what women are experiencing, which is just the simple act of creation itself is the problem,” Dordulian said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2255688657-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An iPhone screen displays the Grok logo on the Grok AI app on January 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>California is at the forefront of passing laws to protect people from deepfakes, but existing law isn’t meeting the moment, said Jennifer Gibson, cofounder and director of \u003ca href=\"https://psst.org/\">Psst\u003c/a>, a group created a little over a year ago that provides pro bono legal services to tech and AI workers interested in whistleblowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/12/new-ai-regulation/\">California law that went into effect Jan. 1\u003c/a> protects whistleblowers inside AI companies but only if they work on catastrophic risk that can kill more than 50 people or cause more than $1 billion in damages. If the law protected people who work on deepfakes, former X employees who \u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-grok-explicit-content-data-annotation-2025-9?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email\">detailed witnessing Grok generating illegal sexually explicit material last year to Business Insider\u003c/a> would, Gibson said, have had protections if they shared the information with authorities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There needs to be a lot more protection for exactly this kind of scenario in which an insider sees that this is foreseeable, knows that this is going to happen, and they need somewhere to go to report to both to keep the company accountable and protect the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/01/california-investigates-deepfakes-elon-musk-company/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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},
"closealltabs": {
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
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"meta": {
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
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"source": "NPR"
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"hyphenacion": {
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"order": 15
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"jerrybrown": {
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"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 18
},
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"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
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"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
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"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
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},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
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},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
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"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
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