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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirty years ago, video games were predominantly marketed to boys. Nintendo and Sega ran TV ads featuring boys proclaiming how “awesome” and “powerful” the latest system was. And the biggest computer games tended to revolve around male-coded activities like shooting or combat. But in the late ‘90s, a small indie game studio called Purple Moon set out to change that — creating story-rich, emotionally complex games designed to welcome girls into the world of computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva looks back on her own childhood experience with Purple Moon and talks with founder Brenda Laurel about the company’s legacy, its impact on girls in tech, and how it all came to an abrupt end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Editor’s note: We updated one line to add context about a character in one of the Purple Moon games, which may affect how the character is understood.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6059143811\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://neogaian.org/wp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, interactive games designer, creator and founder of Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/girl-games-90s-fun-feminist/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Girl Games’ of the ’90s Were Fun and Feminist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Drew Dakessian, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/conscious-ux-leading-human-centered-design-in-the-age-of-ai-designing-the-future-of-artificial-intelligence-with-compassion-inclusion-and-openness_brenda-laurel_rikki-teeters/56629353/#edition=74110991&idiq=86310248\">Conscious UX: Leading Human-Centered Design in the Age of AI: Designing the Future of Artificial Intelligence with Compassion, Inclusion, and Openness \u003c/a>— Rikki Teeters, Don Norman, Brenda Laurel \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.si.edu/media/NMAH/NMAH-AC1498_Transcript_BrendaLaurel.pdf\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Weaver, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Smithsonian Institution, Lemelson Center for The Study of Invention and Innovation \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lifewire.com/women-in-video-games-11690645\">Trailblazing Women in Video Gaming: Meet the Pioneers Who Shaped Design History\u003c/a> — D.S. Cohen, \u003ci>Lifewire\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fighting over access to the family computer is a core childhood memory for Zillennials. Millennials too. I would spend hours on the living room PC playing games like Neopets and Club Penguin and Toontown. In the 90s and early 2000s, computer games from Oregon Trail to The Sims were super popular. But a lot of computer games were targeted toward young boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. That is, until Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon was an American developer of girls’ computer games based in Mountain View, California. The company was created in the 90s to disrupt the assumption that girls aren’t gamers. And it was really successful. In fact, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva played Purple Moon computer games all the time as a little girl. Until the company vanished completely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m passing this episode off to our producer Maya, who’s gonna take us back to the 90s, before the whole girls and stem push was a thing. We’re gonna check out Purple Moon when it was an upstart little game studio, when its founder had an entirely new vision for what computer games could be. And we’ll try to get to the bottom of what really happened to Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon\u003c/b>\u003cb> Intro: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My sister Olivia and I are watching a video on Youtube of our favorite computer game that we used to love as kids. From the 90s. This one is called the Starfire Soccer challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pass the ball, Fireflies! Please! Look, I’m begging you, pass! Would you please pass? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you remember any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We tried to find a way to actually play the games, but no luck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we can’t play them, but we can watch the videos. We can watch the YouTube replays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, like most old computer games, we’re stuck experiencing them vicariously through someone else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s out of the center. Pass it here. Pass it over here. I’m open. That means you Dana, pass the ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computer game follows the character Ginger and her teammates of the Fireflies soccer team as they prepare for the end-of-the-season game against their rival team, the Bulldogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fireflies, Fireflies, go team! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was younger, the game’s animation seems so advanced. But visually, it’s actually pretty basic. It looks like an interactive comic. The images flip like a storybook, and the characters’ mouths don’t move when they talk. It is effective though. Animated soccer players rush towards each other, dashing down a green field surrounded by rowdy fans. The sound design is really immersive too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Charla, you played really well today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh she’s so nice. So you learn how to be a good friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Starfire Soccer Challenge was just one of the games from Purple Moon. Purple Moon was a company that developed games targeted at young girls. They wanted to get girls into tech. And as a kid, I was obsessed with these games. They’re what got me into computer games in the first place. I still remember turning on my family’s PC in the basement, the humming sound of the computer starting up, and the excitement I felt putting the Purple Moon disk into the CD drive. Then the logo would play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just hearing that intro gets me excited. These games shaped how I connected with computers and gaming. They expanded my imagination and put me in scenarios where I could choose my own adventure, from competing to win the Starfire Soccer Championship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starfire soccer challenge! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To exploring trails and a magical forest. There was even a game called Adventure Maker, which allowed you to make up your own scenarios and scenes in the game. For that era, it was kind of a revolutionary idea, especially to have that kind of decision making geared towards young girls. In the 90s, gaming was definitely seen as a space for boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Super Nintendo Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you decide to step up to this kind of power, this kind of challenge, there’s only one place to come. The games of Super Nintendo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sega Genesis Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Young Bobby Angles has a problem. He needs to earn the respect of his peers. So he gets Sega Genesis, the ultimate action system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While young girls were primarily marketed Barbie games. Although I can’t lie, I did love this one Barbie fashion game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barbie Fashion Designer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Making clothes for me is really easy and fun. Let me show you around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another Barbie detective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Detective Barbie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re glad you’re here. You can help us find Ken. We’ve got a few tools that will help us do some super sleuthing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But mostly, these Barbie games felt like they were teaching us that girls should just love to dress up and to ride horses. With the Purple Moon computer games, I had a universe to play in that actually felt like it was for young girls. In one of the games, Secret Paths in the Forest, you learn about each character’s life and the insecurities and real traumas they were going through as teenage girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Secret Paths in The Forest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom’s gone, and now birthdays just aren’t the same anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved these games as a kid. And then, Purple Moon just stopped making new games. And without more games I could relate to, my love for gaming faded as I got older. So now, in my 30s and often nostalgic for my childhood, I got curious what happened to these games that had such an impact on me? And what did Purple Moon do for girl gamers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I did a little research. Let’s start with the first tab. Who created Purple Moon and where are they now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After some Googling, I was able to track down the creator of the Purple Moon computer games, Brenda Laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s always thrilling to meet someone whose lives were touched by the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda is in her 70s now and was a pioneer in the tech world. I wondered how hard it must have been to work in a male-dominated field in the 90s, especially creating games that weren’t meant for guys. So when she agreed to sit down with me for an interview, I geeked out a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I’ve mentioned, you know, I’ve been a big fan of the games since I was little, of all the Purple Moon games. Like all of these games were so important to me. I think also just in me becoming like a storyteller, too, because of just how the games were presented. You know, it’s so exciting for me to get to talk to you. I think my inner child is like, “oh my God!” Fan girling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it’s great. I think we we did get some things right about narrative and storytelling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda’s introduction to the gaming industry happened completely by chance. In the 70s, before she ever dreamt up Purple Moon, Brenda was studying theater at Ohio State University. That’s when one of her friends decided to start a personal computer company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was studying for my PhD generals looking for work and and they said, why don’t you come over and help us do some interactive fairy tales for this little machine with 2K of RAM? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This early tech was all new to Brenda, but she fell in love with it immediately. This same friend went on to create computer games through a company called Cybervision. Brenda’s experience in theater made her a perfect candidate for the type of games they were working on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was the period of time in the theater where actors were interacting with audiences in in productions like Hair and Dionysus in ’69. I had just directed uh uh pretty improvisational version of Robin Hood where the troupe went around and, you know, and kids would talk to them. And if an audience member suggested something, they would be required to change what they were doing to accommodate it. So it was kind of like a group improv. For me, that was a model that I could immediately and directly use in thinking about how to construct an interactive game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Working at Cybervision felt like a dream for Brenda. She got to combine her theatrical training with a newfound love of technology, all within a supportive workplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody was lovely. There wasn’t an a a drop of sexism anywhere. People were incredibly kind and smart and I treasured them all. So I was fortunate in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After working at Cybervision, she landed at Atari in the 1980s. Atari was a pioneering video game and computer company. They made some of the OG arcade hits like Pong and Space Invaders. This was the beginning of the tech boom and early tech innovation, and very much a boys club. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was extremely male dominated and there were subcultures of males inside of that culture that were even harder to deal with. You know, I had to, I remember my first day at Atari, I had to kick the boys out of the women’s room because that’s where they were smoking weed. And I said, you know what? There’s a woman in the house, I need to use the bathroom. Could you guys clear, you know? I learned to be pretty bitchy to great positive effect, I will add. Dropping the occasional F bomb at a at a staff meeting was always good for getting people’s attention in those days. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Atari, Brenda went on to work at various tech companies, including Activision and even Apple. But at almost every stop, Brenda felt like games were targeted for boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. So she began to ask herself — how could she get more girls interested in computers? That’s a new tab. How Purple Moon changed the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1992, Brenda got a job at Interval Research, a research and technology incubator. Brenda was able to convince management to do a study on girls and games. At the time, research showed that parents were much more likely to buy computers for boys than for girls, even if girls expressed interest. And female gamers in the 90s were only about 10 to 25% of the gaming population, depending on the country. So there was a large gap in computer literacy for young girls. Brenda wanted to learn why. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally speaking, you didn’t see little girls putting their hands on the machine because they would say, “I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake. I don’t want to touch it. It’s for boys.” So there were gender biases built into the way girls thought about how they might relate to technology. And our thinking as we spoke about it was as we move into a more technological world, they’ve got to get comfortable with it so that they have access to the power and help and joy, you know, that they might get from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, as we went out and started interviewing little girls, what we discovered was we couldn’t ask what’s your favorite computer game because there weren’t any for them, and they weren’t really playing. So we changed the question to how do girls and boys play and how is it different? What we learned in the course of talking with these girls is that it’s a hell of a hard time of life to be a tween girl. There’s all kinds of social stuff coming from the way women and girls relate to each other in same sex groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so they had issues, not just about technology, but about life that we were seeing, you know, writ large and everything they said didn’t matter what city we were in, we were hearing the same thing. “I feel like everything happens and I can’t do anything about it. I don’t know who I am yet. I don’t know how to help people. Oh, I wish I hadn’t made that decision.” You know, there’s a lot of negative stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after interviewing over a thousand young girls and about 500 young boys on their real life experiences navigating their pre-teen and teenage years, Brenda had an idea. What if she could develop a game that was entirely meant for young girls through their eyes? One that could have a positive impact on their lives. And so the idea for Purple Moon was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t easy to get into the computer gaming market with games geared for girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In those days, these boys games were sold to boys in stores that were frequented by boys and you know, you just weren’t gonna put it in front of a kid unless you could get it into a toy store or some other kind of retail establishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many hands helped launch Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure it takes a village, when I say my games or I designed this, I mean me and, you know, sixty other people who were sitting in the studio or we had wonderful writers and artists and thinkers and researchers and programmers. Uh so yeah, we worked together like a well-oiled machine, except when we didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon eventually became an independent company. The first Purple Moon game was released in 1997 and called Rockett’s New School. Visually, it had the same animated comic strip vibe as the other Purple Moon games that would come later. The game allows you to play as the character, Rockett Movado, on her first day of eighth grade at her new school. A PA announcement greets you as the game begins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome, students. It’s another fantastic year at Whistling Pines Junior High! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi. Listen, I’m sorry to just kind of intrude, but I’m pretty sure you’re new, right? Yeah, I am. My name’s Rockett. Wow, really? Well anyway, I’m Jessie. So you wanna walk in with me, Rockett? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea was with Rockett that you could make a choice. Something unfolds and you have a moment. How do I feel about this? We called it emotional navigation. And so you would click on thought bubbles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Venturing into the cafeteria scene alone could be fun. This is terrible. Not even a single friend to sit with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, I feel terrible, I want to cry. Why don’t I make up with her? Hey, maybe Charla can help. You pick one of those, the thing plays out. If you don’t like what happens, you can go back and change it and see what happens instead. So this kind of social and emotional flexibility is incredibly important to girls that age. And having a sense of personal agency and a sense that you can make choices that matter and change your mind. These are really important milestones in that hard journey from being a little girl to a teenager. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my mission sort of changed from a tech equity one to a how can I build something here, design something here that will help little girls have a better time in their lives and achieve greater self-esteem and feel the sense of personal agency coming to life. So that’s really why I did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that. I mean, that’s why I really think I love the game so much is because you also were able to choose your own adventure and kind of have autonomy with your choice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I think even even though I was so young, I still felt like I felt power you know, I felt empowered by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worked. It worked! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, I don’t think I realized how the ability to choose my own adventures in the Purple Moon games helped shape some of my decision making as a young girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the idea was not so much choose your own adventure, but choose your own response. Choose your path of navigation through this relatively complex social situation. I’m so proud that just about every scenario you see in any of those games comes from the girls we talk to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another way Purple Moon was way ahead of its time was with its website. Through it, they found entirely new ways to engage girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tools for making a website were not easily available. So putting that together, Christy Rosenthal led that team inside of Purple Moon and um was an astoundingly successful website. We were beating Disney.com for hits and dwell time for at least the first six months of our lives as a company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Yeah, I don’t think I ever went on the website. I just always had the CD-ROM games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a whole different world over there. You could write articles for the Whistling Pines newspaper and then we would, you know, incorporate ideas into the storyline. So we were having a kind of narrative conversation with girls on the web, getting ideas for what we might do in the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Purple Moon website was pretty popular, and one reporter for Wired described it as an online space where she could make friends and be herself. It was like an early social networking site just for girls, where they could send each other online postcards and learn about new characters. Like I mentioned earlier, the Purple Moon games weren’t exactly visually advanced. I asked Brenda what it was like to design these games with the limited technology of the 90s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were pretty much animated comic strips. And the reason for that was that we didn’t have the processing power to do good enough lip sync animation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And uh and the computers that were around that day. And we could never get it right. It would always lag just enough to make you crazy. I mean we really tried it, but we couldn’t get there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While a considerable amount of research went into making the Purple Moon games, not everyone liked the direction the games took. There were definitely some critics at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got blowback on these games both from men who thought they were stupid and from hardcore feminists who thought girls ought to behave differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll get into that. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time for a new tab. Purple moon gets pushback. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after the first Purple Moon game, Rockett’s New School was released, a reporter for the New York Times gave a scathing review. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The guy who reviewed the games in the New York Times thought they were just silly. Like, why would you care about who you’re going to be friends with in high school? You know, boys have a very different way of establishing social status in peer groups, generally speaking, we’re all, you know, we’re talking about averages, not everybody, but there’s a very different method. And so when a man looked at it, it’s like, what? Where’s the competition? You know, nobody’s shooting anybody. There are no monsters, no racing cars. What are you thinking? You know, it was that kind of stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it just delighted me. I thought, I have alienated the right person. One of our strategies here with the whole branding of the games as it evolved was to make sure that they gave boys cooties. We didn’t want boys to play them. The reason was that if your big brother played it and had the same response as the New York Times critic did and said, “this game is really lame”. You’d probably go, “Oh, I better not play it in front of John. ” You know, “oh, it’s not cool. I guess I shouldn’t do it.” That happens, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what we wanted was for to present something that girls said, “I own this. You know, I own this. And and you don’t get to tell me whether it’s any good or not.” So, we we made purple packaging, you know, we did all kinds of stuff to to alienate male players from picking it up and buying it because of that business of judgment coming from boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Male critics of the games didn’t surprise Brenda. What did surprise her was criticism from some women and feminists who didn’t like the games either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were silly ones and there were reasonably good ones. You know, there’s an issue about girls behaving in a way that’s considered to be badly. Um, Gossip, exclusion, breaking of affiliations. These are the ways that girls covertly establish their social position, generally speaking. Those are tools that girls and women use. So that was part of it. They didn’t see queer people. Well, in 1995, ’96, we weren’t talking about queer people eleven years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that that was a step too far. We didn’t have religion in the game either for the same reason. And it was just like stuff you didn’t talk about yet. Today, if I were doing it today, I would certainly deal with gender fluidity, with trans kids. I all of that stuff would come into play. But in in that period of time, that wasn’t possible. And yet, generally speaking, there was nothing but praise from women and educators and coaches and stuff like that. And and the sales were great. We were beating John Madden football for the first quarter that we were out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics also had issues with the research conducted to create Purple Moon. Some thought that the girls they interviewed may have already internalized gender stereotypes about what girls should like based on their age. They felt that Brenda and her team were just perpetuating the same gender tropes from their data. There was also criticism surrounding racial stereotypes in the games. One article I found stated that the game used cliches, quote, “such as the snobby popular blonde girl and the smart Asian with glasses.” Brenda felt differently about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I look at the games, I don’t see no racial stereotyping. And it certainly didn’t cause us to make any changes because, you know, we looked at it, we took it seriously, we evaluated it. And we came to the decision that it was incorrect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While watching the replay of my favorite game, the Starfire Soccer Challenge on YouTube, I did notice how Miko, one of the characters in the game who is Asian, is depicted as a Samurai with a sword as she runs down the soccer field. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re scared now. They’re intimidated. They’re ugh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll be honest, I cringed a bit at first at this image. But I later learned that the “Samurai Miko” character was actually designed by an Asian-American artist named Grace Chen, which definitely adds important context. While I don’t think the games are perfect, I do admire that Brenda and her team did extensive research with real young girls at the time to hear about what they were actually going through. And some articles stated that the Starfire Soccer Challenge game was beneficial. One even called it, quote, “an outstanding example of digital technology supporting positive emotional development.” I wonder what the games could look like now if they were created today. What would young girls, boys, or non-binary players desire to see in the games? And how could developers correct some of the cliches seen in the games in the 90s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They wouldn’t be the same. We might get to some of the same emotional and ethical places that we did in the original games. It would take a boatload of new research because just as those girls I interviewed weren’t me at 10, um, the girls today aren’t you. And we need to go out and talk to them, learn what their lives are like, you know, figure it out. And I’d be tempted the second time around to build a game for little boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda never got the opportunity to make a game for boys. In 1999, after only three years, the company folded. But why did this happen? That’s a new tab. What happened to Purple Moon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1999, Purple Moon’s biggest funder, Paul Allen, decided to shift his focus to the e-commerce sector, which was beginning to take off at the time. Ultimately, he decided to take his money out of Purple Moon. This had very serious consequences for the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got the news from the board that they were gonna shut us down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We we had eighty people expecting their paycheck that day. They had frozen our bank accounts. My CEO Nancy Deyo and I got in the car with the CFO. We remembered that we’d made a deposit on our office space with a different bank. So we got in the car, raced over there, took that money out in cash and gave everybody their pay. And they ended up selling the the company to Mattel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the board decided to shut Purple Moon down, Brenda and others were terminated from the company. Then, once Mattel bought the gaming studio, the Purple Moon games eventually stopped being created for good. Brenda was devastated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Took me about a year to recover personally from that. After we shut down the website, we put a goodbye message on the on the front so if you logged into it, it would say, “Hi, we’ve had to leave. We’re so sorry we’ll miss you. ” Well, it turns out that if you were already on the site, if you didn’t leave, if you just sort of kept that window open, your friends could come into the site and join. We had like 300 kids joining Purple Moon after it was shut down because they were sneaking into the side door of the website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though Purple Moon’s closure was bittersweet, Brenda felt that the company had accomplished what it set out to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely feel like we hit the goal of making games that would enrich and enhance the lives of little girls. I feel like it was, you know, act of love from all of us, um who worked on it creatively. And I feel like we succeeded. I know that because I hear from people like you who tell me this changed my life. That’s what we wanted to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, girls would have ended up getting literate with computers anyway, as soon as the internet became something you could actually get to uh easily. A lot of the “I’m afraid to put my hands on the keyboard” stuff went away. I mean, we probably helped with that transition. And it wasn’t very long until females were at least half, if not more than half, of of the audience on the web for everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda began envisioning Purple Moon at a time when computer games weren’t designed with girls in mind. Since the 90s, the percentage of female gamers has grown to 47% in the US. Brenda wouldn’t claim credit for that entire change, but it’s hard to deny Purple Moon’s influence on girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe my love for gaming started because the Purple Moon games felt accessible. And maybe it ended because CD-ROMs eventually became obsolete, and I never quite felt like the video game universe was meant for me. Whatever the case, the world of Purple Moon was a place I felt like I belonged, where I had agency. And for young Maya, that was everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Brenda. This was so great to get to talk to you. I feel like little Maya is so happy right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give little Maya a hug from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported and produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirty years ago, video games were predominantly marketed to boys. Nintendo and Sega ran TV ads featuring boys proclaiming how “awesome” and “powerful” the latest system was. And the biggest computer games tended to revolve around male-coded activities like shooting or combat. But in the late ‘90s, a small indie game studio called Purple Moon set out to change that — creating story-rich, emotionally complex games designed to welcome girls into the world of computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva looks back on her own childhood experience with Purple Moon and talks with founder Brenda Laurel about the company’s legacy, its impact on girls in tech, and how it all came to an abrupt end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Editor’s note: We updated one line to add context about a character in one of the Purple Moon games, which may affect how the character is understood.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6059143811\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://neogaian.org/wp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, interactive games designer, creator and founder of Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/girl-games-90s-fun-feminist/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Girl Games’ of the ’90s Were Fun and Feminist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Drew Dakessian, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/conscious-ux-leading-human-centered-design-in-the-age-of-ai-designing-the-future-of-artificial-intelligence-with-compassion-inclusion-and-openness_brenda-laurel_rikki-teeters/56629353/#edition=74110991&idiq=86310248\">Conscious UX: Leading Human-Centered Design in the Age of AI: Designing the Future of Artificial Intelligence with Compassion, Inclusion, and Openness \u003c/a>— Rikki Teeters, Don Norman, Brenda Laurel \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.si.edu/media/NMAH/NMAH-AC1498_Transcript_BrendaLaurel.pdf\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Weaver, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Smithsonian Institution, Lemelson Center for The Study of Invention and Innovation \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lifewire.com/women-in-video-games-11690645\">Trailblazing Women in Video Gaming: Meet the Pioneers Who Shaped Design History\u003c/a> — D.S. Cohen, \u003ci>Lifewire\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fighting over access to the family computer is a core childhood memory for Zillennials. Millennials too. I would spend hours on the living room PC playing games like Neopets and Club Penguin and Toontown. In the 90s and early 2000s, computer games from Oregon Trail to The Sims were super popular. But a lot of computer games were targeted toward young boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. That is, until Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon was an American developer of girls’ computer games based in Mountain View, California. The company was created in the 90s to disrupt the assumption that girls aren’t gamers. And it was really successful. In fact, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva played Purple Moon computer games all the time as a little girl. Until the company vanished completely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m passing this episode off to our producer Maya, who’s gonna take us back to the 90s, before the whole girls and stem push was a thing. We’re gonna check out Purple Moon when it was an upstart little game studio, when its founder had an entirely new vision for what computer games could be. And we’ll try to get to the bottom of what really happened to Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon\u003c/b>\u003cb> Intro: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My sister Olivia and I are watching a video on Youtube of our favorite computer game that we used to love as kids. From the 90s. This one is called the Starfire Soccer challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pass the ball, Fireflies! Please! Look, I’m begging you, pass! Would you please pass? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you remember any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We tried to find a way to actually play the games, but no luck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we can’t play them, but we can watch the videos. We can watch the YouTube replays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, like most old computer games, we’re stuck experiencing them vicariously through someone else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s out of the center. Pass it here. Pass it over here. I’m open. That means you Dana, pass the ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computer game follows the character Ginger and her teammates of the Fireflies soccer team as they prepare for the end-of-the-season game against their rival team, the Bulldogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fireflies, Fireflies, go team! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was younger, the game’s animation seems so advanced. But visually, it’s actually pretty basic. It looks like an interactive comic. The images flip like a storybook, and the characters’ mouths don’t move when they talk. It is effective though. Animated soccer players rush towards each other, dashing down a green field surrounded by rowdy fans. The sound design is really immersive too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Charla, you played really well today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh she’s so nice. So you learn how to be a good friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Starfire Soccer Challenge was just one of the games from Purple Moon. Purple Moon was a company that developed games targeted at young girls. They wanted to get girls into tech. And as a kid, I was obsessed with these games. They’re what got me into computer games in the first place. I still remember turning on my family’s PC in the basement, the humming sound of the computer starting up, and the excitement I felt putting the Purple Moon disk into the CD drive. Then the logo would play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just hearing that intro gets me excited. These games shaped how I connected with computers and gaming. They expanded my imagination and put me in scenarios where I could choose my own adventure, from competing to win the Starfire Soccer Championship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starfire soccer challenge! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To exploring trails and a magical forest. There was even a game called Adventure Maker, which allowed you to make up your own scenarios and scenes in the game. For that era, it was kind of a revolutionary idea, especially to have that kind of decision making geared towards young girls. In the 90s, gaming was definitely seen as a space for boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Super Nintendo Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you decide to step up to this kind of power, this kind of challenge, there’s only one place to come. The games of Super Nintendo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sega Genesis Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Young Bobby Angles has a problem. He needs to earn the respect of his peers. So he gets Sega Genesis, the ultimate action system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While young girls were primarily marketed Barbie games. Although I can’t lie, I did love this one Barbie fashion game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barbie Fashion Designer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Making clothes for me is really easy and fun. Let me show you around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another Barbie detective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Detective Barbie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re glad you’re here. You can help us find Ken. We’ve got a few tools that will help us do some super sleuthing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But mostly, these Barbie games felt like they were teaching us that girls should just love to dress up and to ride horses. With the Purple Moon computer games, I had a universe to play in that actually felt like it was for young girls. In one of the games, Secret Paths in the Forest, you learn about each character’s life and the insecurities and real traumas they were going through as teenage girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Secret Paths in The Forest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom’s gone, and now birthdays just aren’t the same anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved these games as a kid. And then, Purple Moon just stopped making new games. And without more games I could relate to, my love for gaming faded as I got older. So now, in my 30s and often nostalgic for my childhood, I got curious what happened to these games that had such an impact on me? And what did Purple Moon do for girl gamers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I did a little research. Let’s start with the first tab. Who created Purple Moon and where are they now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After some Googling, I was able to track down the creator of the Purple Moon computer games, Brenda Laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s always thrilling to meet someone whose lives were touched by the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda is in her 70s now and was a pioneer in the tech world. I wondered how hard it must have been to work in a male-dominated field in the 90s, especially creating games that weren’t meant for guys. So when she agreed to sit down with me for an interview, I geeked out a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I’ve mentioned, you know, I’ve been a big fan of the games since I was little, of all the Purple Moon games. Like all of these games were so important to me. I think also just in me becoming like a storyteller, too, because of just how the games were presented. You know, it’s so exciting for me to get to talk to you. I think my inner child is like, “oh my God!” Fan girling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it’s great. I think we we did get some things right about narrative and storytelling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda’s introduction to the gaming industry happened completely by chance. In the 70s, before she ever dreamt up Purple Moon, Brenda was studying theater at Ohio State University. That’s when one of her friends decided to start a personal computer company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was studying for my PhD generals looking for work and and they said, why don’t you come over and help us do some interactive fairy tales for this little machine with 2K of RAM? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This early tech was all new to Brenda, but she fell in love with it immediately. This same friend went on to create computer games through a company called Cybervision. Brenda’s experience in theater made her a perfect candidate for the type of games they were working on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was the period of time in the theater where actors were interacting with audiences in in productions like Hair and Dionysus in ’69. I had just directed uh uh pretty improvisational version of Robin Hood where the troupe went around and, you know, and kids would talk to them. And if an audience member suggested something, they would be required to change what they were doing to accommodate it. So it was kind of like a group improv. For me, that was a model that I could immediately and directly use in thinking about how to construct an interactive game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Working at Cybervision felt like a dream for Brenda. She got to combine her theatrical training with a newfound love of technology, all within a supportive workplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody was lovely. There wasn’t an a a drop of sexism anywhere. People were incredibly kind and smart and I treasured them all. So I was fortunate in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After working at Cybervision, she landed at Atari in the 1980s. Atari was a pioneering video game and computer company. They made some of the OG arcade hits like Pong and Space Invaders. This was the beginning of the tech boom and early tech innovation, and very much a boys club. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was extremely male dominated and there were subcultures of males inside of that culture that were even harder to deal with. You know, I had to, I remember my first day at Atari, I had to kick the boys out of the women’s room because that’s where they were smoking weed. And I said, you know what? There’s a woman in the house, I need to use the bathroom. Could you guys clear, you know? I learned to be pretty bitchy to great positive effect, I will add. Dropping the occasional F bomb at a at a staff meeting was always good for getting people’s attention in those days. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Atari, Brenda went on to work at various tech companies, including Activision and even Apple. But at almost every stop, Brenda felt like games were targeted for boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. So she began to ask herself — how could she get more girls interested in computers? That’s a new tab. How Purple Moon changed the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1992, Brenda got a job at Interval Research, a research and technology incubator. Brenda was able to convince management to do a study on girls and games. At the time, research showed that parents were much more likely to buy computers for boys than for girls, even if girls expressed interest. And female gamers in the 90s were only about 10 to 25% of the gaming population, depending on the country. So there was a large gap in computer literacy for young girls. Brenda wanted to learn why. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally speaking, you didn’t see little girls putting their hands on the machine because they would say, “I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake. I don’t want to touch it. It’s for boys.” So there were gender biases built into the way girls thought about how they might relate to technology. And our thinking as we spoke about it was as we move into a more technological world, they’ve got to get comfortable with it so that they have access to the power and help and joy, you know, that they might get from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, as we went out and started interviewing little girls, what we discovered was we couldn’t ask what’s your favorite computer game because there weren’t any for them, and they weren’t really playing. So we changed the question to how do girls and boys play and how is it different? What we learned in the course of talking with these girls is that it’s a hell of a hard time of life to be a tween girl. There’s all kinds of social stuff coming from the way women and girls relate to each other in same sex groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so they had issues, not just about technology, but about life that we were seeing, you know, writ large and everything they said didn’t matter what city we were in, we were hearing the same thing. “I feel like everything happens and I can’t do anything about it. I don’t know who I am yet. I don’t know how to help people. Oh, I wish I hadn’t made that decision.” You know, there’s a lot of negative stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after interviewing over a thousand young girls and about 500 young boys on their real life experiences navigating their pre-teen and teenage years, Brenda had an idea. What if she could develop a game that was entirely meant for young girls through their eyes? One that could have a positive impact on their lives. And so the idea for Purple Moon was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t easy to get into the computer gaming market with games geared for girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In those days, these boys games were sold to boys in stores that were frequented by boys and you know, you just weren’t gonna put it in front of a kid unless you could get it into a toy store or some other kind of retail establishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many hands helped launch Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure it takes a village, when I say my games or I designed this, I mean me and, you know, sixty other people who were sitting in the studio or we had wonderful writers and artists and thinkers and researchers and programmers. Uh so yeah, we worked together like a well-oiled machine, except when we didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon eventually became an independent company. The first Purple Moon game was released in 1997 and called Rockett’s New School. Visually, it had the same animated comic strip vibe as the other Purple Moon games that would come later. The game allows you to play as the character, Rockett Movado, on her first day of eighth grade at her new school. A PA announcement greets you as the game begins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome, students. It’s another fantastic year at Whistling Pines Junior High! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi. Listen, I’m sorry to just kind of intrude, but I’m pretty sure you’re new, right? Yeah, I am. My name’s Rockett. Wow, really? Well anyway, I’m Jessie. So you wanna walk in with me, Rockett? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea was with Rockett that you could make a choice. Something unfolds and you have a moment. How do I feel about this? We called it emotional navigation. And so you would click on thought bubbles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Venturing into the cafeteria scene alone could be fun. This is terrible. Not even a single friend to sit with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, I feel terrible, I want to cry. Why don’t I make up with her? Hey, maybe Charla can help. You pick one of those, the thing plays out. If you don’t like what happens, you can go back and change it and see what happens instead. So this kind of social and emotional flexibility is incredibly important to girls that age. And having a sense of personal agency and a sense that you can make choices that matter and change your mind. These are really important milestones in that hard journey from being a little girl to a teenager. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my mission sort of changed from a tech equity one to a how can I build something here, design something here that will help little girls have a better time in their lives and achieve greater self-esteem and feel the sense of personal agency coming to life. So that’s really why I did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that. I mean, that’s why I really think I love the game so much is because you also were able to choose your own adventure and kind of have autonomy with your choice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I think even even though I was so young, I still felt like I felt power you know, I felt empowered by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worked. It worked! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, I don’t think I realized how the ability to choose my own adventures in the Purple Moon games helped shape some of my decision making as a young girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the idea was not so much choose your own adventure, but choose your own response. Choose your path of navigation through this relatively complex social situation. I’m so proud that just about every scenario you see in any of those games comes from the girls we talk to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another way Purple Moon was way ahead of its time was with its website. Through it, they found entirely new ways to engage girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tools for making a website were not easily available. So putting that together, Christy Rosenthal led that team inside of Purple Moon and um was an astoundingly successful website. We were beating Disney.com for hits and dwell time for at least the first six months of our lives as a company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Yeah, I don’t think I ever went on the website. I just always had the CD-ROM games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a whole different world over there. You could write articles for the Whistling Pines newspaper and then we would, you know, incorporate ideas into the storyline. So we were having a kind of narrative conversation with girls on the web, getting ideas for what we might do in the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Purple Moon website was pretty popular, and one reporter for Wired described it as an online space where she could make friends and be herself. It was like an early social networking site just for girls, where they could send each other online postcards and learn about new characters. Like I mentioned earlier, the Purple Moon games weren’t exactly visually advanced. I asked Brenda what it was like to design these games with the limited technology of the 90s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were pretty much animated comic strips. And the reason for that was that we didn’t have the processing power to do good enough lip sync animation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And uh and the computers that were around that day. And we could never get it right. It would always lag just enough to make you crazy. I mean we really tried it, but we couldn’t get there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While a considerable amount of research went into making the Purple Moon games, not everyone liked the direction the games took. There were definitely some critics at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got blowback on these games both from men who thought they were stupid and from hardcore feminists who thought girls ought to behave differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll get into that. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time for a new tab. Purple moon gets pushback. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after the first Purple Moon game, Rockett’s New School was released, a reporter for the New York Times gave a scathing review. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The guy who reviewed the games in the New York Times thought they were just silly. Like, why would you care about who you’re going to be friends with in high school? You know, boys have a very different way of establishing social status in peer groups, generally speaking, we’re all, you know, we’re talking about averages, not everybody, but there’s a very different method. And so when a man looked at it, it’s like, what? Where’s the competition? You know, nobody’s shooting anybody. There are no monsters, no racing cars. What are you thinking? You know, it was that kind of stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it just delighted me. I thought, I have alienated the right person. One of our strategies here with the whole branding of the games as it evolved was to make sure that they gave boys cooties. We didn’t want boys to play them. The reason was that if your big brother played it and had the same response as the New York Times critic did and said, “this game is really lame”. You’d probably go, “Oh, I better not play it in front of John. ” You know, “oh, it’s not cool. I guess I shouldn’t do it.” That happens, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what we wanted was for to present something that girls said, “I own this. You know, I own this. And and you don’t get to tell me whether it’s any good or not.” So, we we made purple packaging, you know, we did all kinds of stuff to to alienate male players from picking it up and buying it because of that business of judgment coming from boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Male critics of the games didn’t surprise Brenda. What did surprise her was criticism from some women and feminists who didn’t like the games either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were silly ones and there were reasonably good ones. You know, there’s an issue about girls behaving in a way that’s considered to be badly. Um, Gossip, exclusion, breaking of affiliations. These are the ways that girls covertly establish their social position, generally speaking. Those are tools that girls and women use. So that was part of it. They didn’t see queer people. Well, in 1995, ’96, we weren’t talking about queer people eleven years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that that was a step too far. We didn’t have religion in the game either for the same reason. And it was just like stuff you didn’t talk about yet. Today, if I were doing it today, I would certainly deal with gender fluidity, with trans kids. I all of that stuff would come into play. But in in that period of time, that wasn’t possible. And yet, generally speaking, there was nothing but praise from women and educators and coaches and stuff like that. And and the sales were great. We were beating John Madden football for the first quarter that we were out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics also had issues with the research conducted to create Purple Moon. Some thought that the girls they interviewed may have already internalized gender stereotypes about what girls should like based on their age. They felt that Brenda and her team were just perpetuating the same gender tropes from their data. There was also criticism surrounding racial stereotypes in the games. One article I found stated that the game used cliches, quote, “such as the snobby popular blonde girl and the smart Asian with glasses.” Brenda felt differently about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I look at the games, I don’t see no racial stereotyping. And it certainly didn’t cause us to make any changes because, you know, we looked at it, we took it seriously, we evaluated it. And we came to the decision that it was incorrect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While watching the replay of my favorite game, the Starfire Soccer Challenge on YouTube, I did notice how Miko, one of the characters in the game who is Asian, is depicted as a Samurai with a sword as she runs down the soccer field. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re scared now. They’re intimidated. They’re ugh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll be honest, I cringed a bit at first at this image. But I later learned that the “Samurai Miko” character was actually designed by an Asian-American artist named Grace Chen, which definitely adds important context. While I don’t think the games are perfect, I do admire that Brenda and her team did extensive research with real young girls at the time to hear about what they were actually going through. And some articles stated that the Starfire Soccer Challenge game was beneficial. One even called it, quote, “an outstanding example of digital technology supporting positive emotional development.” I wonder what the games could look like now if they were created today. What would young girls, boys, or non-binary players desire to see in the games? And how could developers correct some of the cliches seen in the games in the 90s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They wouldn’t be the same. We might get to some of the same emotional and ethical places that we did in the original games. It would take a boatload of new research because just as those girls I interviewed weren’t me at 10, um, the girls today aren’t you. And we need to go out and talk to them, learn what their lives are like, you know, figure it out. And I’d be tempted the second time around to build a game for little boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda never got the opportunity to make a game for boys. In 1999, after only three years, the company folded. But why did this happen? That’s a new tab. What happened to Purple Moon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1999, Purple Moon’s biggest funder, Paul Allen, decided to shift his focus to the e-commerce sector, which was beginning to take off at the time. Ultimately, he decided to take his money out of Purple Moon. This had very serious consequences for the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got the news from the board that they were gonna shut us down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We we had eighty people expecting their paycheck that day. They had frozen our bank accounts. My CEO Nancy Deyo and I got in the car with the CFO. We remembered that we’d made a deposit on our office space with a different bank. So we got in the car, raced over there, took that money out in cash and gave everybody their pay. And they ended up selling the the company to Mattel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the board decided to shut Purple Moon down, Brenda and others were terminated from the company. Then, once Mattel bought the gaming studio, the Purple Moon games eventually stopped being created for good. Brenda was devastated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Took me about a year to recover personally from that. After we shut down the website, we put a goodbye message on the on the front so if you logged into it, it would say, “Hi, we’ve had to leave. We’re so sorry we’ll miss you. ” Well, it turns out that if you were already on the site, if you didn’t leave, if you just sort of kept that window open, your friends could come into the site and join. We had like 300 kids joining Purple Moon after it was shut down because they were sneaking into the side door of the website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though Purple Moon’s closure was bittersweet, Brenda felt that the company had accomplished what it set out to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely feel like we hit the goal of making games that would enrich and enhance the lives of little girls. I feel like it was, you know, act of love from all of us, um who worked on it creatively. And I feel like we succeeded. I know that because I hear from people like you who tell me this changed my life. That’s what we wanted to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, girls would have ended up getting literate with computers anyway, as soon as the internet became something you could actually get to uh easily. A lot of the “I’m afraid to put my hands on the keyboard” stuff went away. I mean, we probably helped with that transition. And it wasn’t very long until females were at least half, if not more than half, of of the audience on the web for everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda began envisioning Purple Moon at a time when computer games weren’t designed with girls in mind. Since the 90s, the percentage of female gamers has grown to 47% in the US. Brenda wouldn’t claim credit for that entire change, but it’s hard to deny Purple Moon’s influence on girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe my love for gaming started because the Purple Moon games felt accessible. And maybe it ended because CD-ROMs eventually became obsolete, and I never quite felt like the video game universe was meant for me. Whatever the case, the world of Purple Moon was a place I felt like I belonged, where I had agency. And for young Maya, that was everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Brenda. This was so great to get to talk to you. I feel like little Maya is so happy right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give little Maya a hug from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported and produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "meet-ukraines-geeks-of-war",
"title": "Meet Ukraine’s ‘Geeks of War’",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Ukraine-Russia war has been called the most technologically advanced war in history. Ukrainian citizens receive notifications about incoming missile and drone attacks through apps on their phones; remote-controlled drones swarm the front lines; and volunteer cyberwarfare units target Russian digital infrastructure. It’s all part of what some have dubbed Ukraine’s “Geeks of War.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, investigative reporter Erica Hellerstein takes us to the digital front line. On a recent trip to Ukraine, she met a husband-and-wife duo running a DIY nonprofit that supplies tech to defense forces, toured the recently-bombed headquarters of one of the country’s biggest tech companies, and explored how a swarm of online accounts with Shiba Inu avatars is countering Russian propaganda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout, she looks at how Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation — and its surprising ties to Silicon Valley — are fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5459549472\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ericahellerstein.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Erica Hellerstein\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, investigative journalist and feature writer\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/tnyradiohour/articles/dexter-filkins-on-drones-and-the-future-of-warfare?tab=transcript\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dexter Filkins on Drones and the Future of Warfare\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Howard, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WNYC\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kyivpost.com/post/47836\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lessons From the World’s First Full-Scale Cyberwar\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Kirichenko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kyiv Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/30/technology/russia-propaganda-video-games.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia Takes Its Ukraine Information War Into Video Games\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Steven Lee Myers and Kellen Browning, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/08/27/ukraine-drones-war-russia-00514712?utm_source=perplexity\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Ukraine remains the world’s most innovative war machine\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ibrahim Naber, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politico\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/03/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-drones-deaths.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Thousand Snipers in the Sky: The New War in Ukraine\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marc Santora, Lara Jakes, Andrew E. Kramer, Marco Hernandez and Liubov Sholudko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here on Close All Tabs, we cover all different sides of tech and the internet — the good, the bad, and the gray areas in between. Today, we’re doing something different, and taking our deep dive abroad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tech industry is increasingly intertwined with global conflict. Like how Silicon Valley’s AI obsession has fueled the automated warfare in Israel’s attacks on Gaza, or US bomb strikes in Iraq and Syria. So-called “defense tech” startups are attracting billions in funding. And like we’ve talked about on this show before, the Pentagon’s Cold War investments actually built Silicon Valley. This startup approach to weaponry has some pretty concerning implications for the future of war. And we’ve seen, in real time, the way these advancements in surveillance and automated warfare are being used to oppress people — like Palestinians in Gaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time in another region plagued by conflict, Ukraine, tech culture has become a vital part of the country’s resistance against Russian aggression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the kind of story that Erica Hellerstein stumbled upon, as she prepared for her own trip to Ukraine. Erica is a Bay Area investigative journalist who reports on human rights, politics, and tech. Back in June, she spent three weeks around Kyiv on a reporting trip, working on a project about her own family’s roots in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just before her trip, she heard a story about a Ukrainian engineer who had worked for a Bay Area tech company, but left his job to join his country’s defense forces. It got her thinking about the connection between Silicon Valley and the Ukrainian fight against Russian occupation. She started digging and according to the people she talked to, the tech sector is part of the reason Ukraine is still standing today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the Geeks of War — that’s what one Ukrainian drone operator nicknamed the group. Ukraine actually has a long history of technological innovation that is still alive today, and is fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this special episode, Erica will introduce us to a few of these “Geeks” and we’ll explore how this new generation is blurring the lines between the digital and physical battlefield — reshaping the next generation of conflict, and maybe even the future of war itself. I’ll let Erica take it from here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein, Reporter\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s around 11:55 pm when the first alarm goes off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Alarm sounding from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The noise shatters any illusion I had that my first night in Kyiv would be quiet or peaceful. I’ve been doomscrolling on my phone in a bomb shelter connected to my hotel in Kyiv. It’s surprisingly nice, with wifi, beverages, even bean bag chairs. On heavy nights of bombardment, like tonight, these sirens can go off multiple times and last for hours. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But most of the time I’m in Ukraine, I’m hearing these alarms digitally through an app on my phone called Air Alert. The Ukrainian government developed the app towards the beginning of the war, and it’s now been downloaded at least 27 million times. That’s in a country of 39 million people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Air Alert sounds a loud, jarring alarm whenever a Russian missile strike, or drone attack is detected in your region. And the voice telling you to find the nearest shelter? None other than Jedi master Luke Skywalker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attention. Air raid alert. Proceed to the nearest shelter. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Or rather, Mark Hamill, the actor who \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">played\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the beloved character in Star Wars. Hamill’s a vocal supporter of Ukraine so he pitched in to voice the English language version of the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t be careless. Your overconfidence is your weakness.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: I’ve learned, though, that the app only gives you basic information. To get details, I go to a different app, Telegram, where I follow a volunteer-run channel that gives updates about what kinds of missiles, or drones, are in the air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As if two apps aren’t enough, I’m also on WhatsApp messaging a group of journalists who are also in Kyiv. Some are in the same hotel shelter, others are sheltering in the hallways of their apartment buildings or metro stations. Everyone is sharing updates. “Drone flew right over our roof,” someone writes around 1 am. Another, two minutes later: “Loud explosion not far from my place.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, around 6am, another alert goes off. Once again, I hear a familiar voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attention. The air alert is over. May the Force be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That means, at least for now, the skies in Kyiv are safe. But as dawn breaks, the scale of the destruction starts to come into focus. About two miles from where I’m staying, an apartment building was hit by a ballistic missile and reduced to rubble – there are reports of people still trapped inside. A Kyiv metro station and university were also hit. All told, ten people, including a child, were killed in the onslaught.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This has become a regular occurrence in Ukraine. People have been living through these kinds of attacks for years. Unable to sleep through the wails of the sirens, reading news about buildings blown up, civilians killed and then somehow, still managing to go about their daily lives – going to work, picking up their kids, celebrating birthday parties, getting married.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the apps like Air Alert, technology has become a centerpiece in this war — hacking software, killer drones, medical robots delivering supplies to the frontlines. It’s transforming how people experience war. Now, every aspect of our lives, including conflict, is mediated by our digital world. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the people behind the screens can be a little mysterious. I wanted to learn more about them. To understand the workers and whizzes changing what warfare looks like, with major implications for the rest of the world. I wanted to meet the self-styled “Geeks of War.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for that, we’ll need to open a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet the Geeks\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: My first guide to the geeks is a couple I met in Lviv, which is a Western city in Ukraine. Dimko and Iryna Zhluktenko. They’re the co-founders of Dzyga’s Paw. It’s a Ukrainian nonprofit that donates defense technology to the frontlines. Both Iryna and Dimko used to work in tech. Dimko was a software engineer, Iryna a product analyst for the San Francisco-based tech company, JustAnswer. But after Russia invaded Ukraine, they quit their jobs and threw themselves into Dzyga’s Paw, which, by the way, is named after their adorable little fox-faced pup, Dzyga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I stop by the organization’s headquarters one night. They greet me with a tour of the space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can just come like this. So we used to live here, so this is actually, like a normal house location, but very old one is from 1906, so it’s more than 100 years old, and here you have our main working, like a little open space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: There’s a small party happening, with some women playing an intimidating-looking card game in the kitchen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The girls are playing [inaudible] Do you know this game? No, you should try. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I’m horrible at cards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We pass an entire wall full of framed thank you letters from different military units. There’s another wall, too, full of patches from soldiers and volunteer fighters, some coming from the other side of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow, I see Argentina. That’s far.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s from, yeah, from international volunteer who’s fighting here in Ukraine, from Argentina. This is a Estonian one from Estonian cyber defense forces. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iryna shows me another decoration tacked to the wall: A downed Russian drone. And it’s in really good shape. So she decides to give it a whirl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me try to do it. So it turns on. And if I had a controller, if I had a like TX controller, I could launch it and start it, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is like a war treasure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looted from Russians. Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once I tear myself away from the shiny objects, I sit down with Dimko, Iryna, and of course, Dzyga, who has extreme zoomies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She is the boss of the operation.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Dzyga barks]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They tell me that the project came about in the early months of the war. Of course, like so many other Ukrainians, they wanted to help. And they started to think about what they could bring to the table. And that’s when Dimko and Iryna, had their \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a-ha\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> moment. “We’re nerds!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ve decided that well, we might just use our, uh, tech experience, our tech geekiness, uh, to, uh, innovate. Some of the approaches on the battlefield.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We figured out, okay, we can help better when our expertise is. So basically we started looking more into more advanced equipment. We started looking into drone and things like that and because we had friends in the military, uh, it was like our first point of contact because like we had people we could trust. And we started, you know, buying and supplying some tech devices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They started with what their friends in the military really needed: equipment. Drones, Starlink units — which provide remote internet access – long-range encrypted radios, thermal cameras. Dzyga’s paw has since grown from a scrappy idea into a multi-million dollar nonprofit. In October alone, they delivered over $230,000 worth of equipment to the military, according to the organization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And all of this high tech gear goes to soldiers and drone operators who are stationed near the frontlines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They often work in hideouts, or command centers, miles from the front, flying drones by remote control while wearing a headset that shows exactly what the device sees through its camera. Other soldiers sit beside them, watching live maps on screens, calling out targets and coordinates in real time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dimko explains what these command centers look like in action.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Basically an underground shelter with, uh, tons of, uh, big ass four screen TVs or something. Uh, and guys looking like they just finished the MIT or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So literally geeks of the war, sitting in those command centers and analyzing what is happening at the battlefield, and then suggesting what decisions should be taken to be the most effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> About a year ago, Dimko also enlisted as a drone operator for a Ukrainian military unit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because this is my chance to, uh, well defend my home, defend my family, and, uh, in the end defend my country.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically the job is to do the reconnaissance. Um, you have this big UAV that, uh, like a fixed wing kind of a thing that you launch in the air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drone warfare has quickly become one of the defining characteristics of this conflict. The kind Dimko pilots are called UAVs — or unmanned aerial vehicles. They look like small airplanes, and like Dimko said, they’re mainly used for reconnaissance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has the radio connection, so you have the radio signal link, uh, to it. And, uh, you have the live stream from that, you stream that footage into one of the IT systems that we have, uh, in the armed forces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of the people interested in the situation in the area. Can watch that live stream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there’s this other kind of drone, called an FPV. That stands for first-person-view. They’re some of the most common drones on the battlefield right now. Once upon a time, these drones were mainly the toys of hobbyists and creatives. You know that insufferable wedding reel you saw on Instagram? Probably shot on an FPV drone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Russia invaded, the Ukrainian military started rolling them out on a massive scale. They cost next to nothing. They’re endlessly scalable, and for a country like Ukraine, with far fewer resources and manpower than Russia, they’ve been a game-changer. Drones that can be bought for just a few hundred dollars are now taking out Russian tanks and artillery worth millions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are swarms of these things buzzing around now on the front, some with cameras for spying, others loaded with explosives to detonate on their targets. And they’re responsible for massive damage. Drones now account for as much as seventy percent of casualties on both sides, according to Ukrainian officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Experts are already warning that this rapid, wide-scale shift could dramatically change the future of conflict. Other countries are likely to learn from or maybe adopt the technologies and tactics deployed in this war. And It’s not just militaries that can repurpose these technologies. Paramilitaries, militias, and extremist groups can all easily purchase and deploy drone technology. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As drone warfare becomes more lethal on the battlefield, Dimko tells me that his work is also getting more treacherous as the war progresses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is very and very dangerous because the kill zone is getting wider and wider because of the danger of FPV drones there in our direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have a lot of, uh, Russian groups there, specifically hunting pilots like us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But even though Dimko is now an official member of the Ukrainian military, the organization he helps run, Dzyga’s Paw, started completely outside of that system as a grassroots, volunteer mission. And now it’s directly helping units like his and this is really common. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine is heavily dependent on volunteers. People like the Dzyga’s Paw team, delivering supplies to the frontlines, volunteer air defense groups that shoot down Russian drones in the middle of the night, or Ukrainian tech companies building safety apps for civilians. All of this experimentation, this volunteer work – it’s been a really important part of Ukraine’s survival. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a classic battlefield, it’d fail. But, um, it’s a constant competition of technology again and I still feel we are more rapid. We are more fast in terms of inventing something new. I wanna believe at least that, um, it all comes from our initial desire to survive and to fight for our country ’cause uh, there were many different people with different careers and professions, but, uh, huge part of them switched to thinking in this direction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this bottom-up, grassroots approach represents a fundamental difference between how Ukraine and Russia operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Compared to Russia, it’s like they don’t have a, they like, everything is very like, top down. It’s controlled from the,yeah, from the state. So, indeed they have great engineers, but they are given like a task to develop something, to come up with a solution. While in Ukraine, it’s more of a like, grassroots thing and sometimes something brilliant just comes out of nowhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So how did Ukraine get here to this nimble and adaptive space for innovation and experimentation? And why does it all remind me so much of the tech culture in the Bay Area? We’ll get into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To help us understand Ukraine’s tech culture, we’re taking a visit to MacPaw — one of the most successful tech companies to come out of Ukraine before the war. They created the CleanMyMac software. I’m at the company’s headquarters in Kyiv.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This building was actually hit by a Russian missile back in December. There are still some traces of the attack around the building: Window glass damaged, parts of the exterior crumbling. Here’s MacPaw CEO Oleksandr Kosovan describing that day:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The rockets were very powerful so they destroyed all the facade of the building. All the windows were shattered. A lot of damage inside the office, but nothing super critical. We were very lucky in that none of our employees were injured. It was scary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> MacPaw has built several digital tools to support Ukraine during the war, including an app to help Ukrainian companies check on employees after attacks, software that helps computers identify Russian malware, and a special VPN to help people in occupied territories circumvent Russian censorship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While getting a tour of the MacPaw office, something catches my eye. It’s a wall filled with a collection of old Apple products from across the ages. It’s got ancient looking grey computers, and those bulky, colorful desktops that always felt to me like the computer version of a jolly rancher. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember having these in school. It brings me back. Very nostalgic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oleksandr created this wall as an homage to Apple, which has always been an inspiration to him. Before the war, he wanted to create a museum full of the company’s products. For now, this wall is a little shrine in the middle of the MacPaw office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a Bay Area resident, it’s kind of funny, being here and seeing traces of where I’m from all over the tech industry here. Granted, Silicon Valley is hugely influential but what surprises me is just how intertwined Silicon Valley and Ukraine’s tech industries are. Like how Iryna of Dzyga’s Paw worked for a San Francisco startup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is not unusual I’m learning. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For years, tech companies from San Francisco to San Jose have relied on Ukrainian engineers for their technical skills, English fluency, and lower labor costs. Companies like Google, Grammarly (which was founded by Ukrainians), Ring, JetBridge, and Caspio all had employees based in Ukraine when Russia began its full-scale invasion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a general cultural ethos here that feels familiar to my Bay Area sensibilities, like the food trucks, ping pong tables, and hoodies I see all over tech campuses in Kyiv. There was one friendship bracelet-wearing tech worker I talk to who tells me all about her recent ayahuasca healing journey in South America. I felt like I was back at home.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are all the personal connections I notice with the Ukrainians I meet. Some worked for Bay Area companies. Or, have friends who live there for work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And since the war began, these transnational ties have become a quiet but meaningful network of support for Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Silicon Valley–based nonprofit Nova Ukraine, which was co-founded by a former Facebook and Google employee from Kharkiv, has raised over $160 million in humanitarian aid.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iryna’s old employer, JustAnswer, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">has expanded its Ukrainian workforce. It funded a pediatric mental health center in the country as well. Caspio \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">helped relocate dozens of Ukrainian staffers safely out of the country, and\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> continues supporting staff remotely. Sometimes, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">company Zoom calls will be interrupted by the wail of a siren telling Ukrainian workers to go to a bomb shelter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While there’s a lot of overlap between these two parts of the world, the innovation mindset that runs through Ukraine’s tech sector has deep roots. It started long before Steve Jobs or Silicon Valley exploded onto the global scene, like, decades before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1951, when Ukraine was still part of the USSR, engineers on the outskirts of Kyiv developed the first computer in all of Europe. They worked around the clock, under tough conditions, in a crumbling old building that was ravaged by bombing during WWII. The people who made this computer, they’re considered the godfathers of Ukrainian IT. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oleksandr again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the, uh [inaudible] or IT on that era was actually originated from Ukraine. And um, beside that, there were like so many engineers, like my father was an engineer. There are so, so many great engineers that were working for this industry back then. And, and this basically were like the birth of the modern IT industry in Ukraine. So when the USSR collapsed, this talent and this, uh, uh, knowledge, uh, stayed in, in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And today, the industry those engineers helped to create now plays a significant role in Ukraine’s economy. In 2024, Ukraine’s IT sector contributed 3.4% to Ukraine’s GDP, behind only the agricultural industry, according to a report published by the IT Association of Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literally hundreds of thousands of people joined, uh, Ukrainian army. They started to bring their experience and their, like, creative, uh, vision and approach, uh, to the Army. And they started to apply, uh, some changes from, from bottom up. Uh, because, uh, these generals here, they probably know how to, uh, find the war of previous era, uh, but they don’t, uh, definitely understand how they can apply these technologies in order to, to receive some, some advantage. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To this point, we’ve been mostly talking about the physical battlefield, like drones attacking targets in the real world. But a new frontline has emerged in this war — the internet. And the tools and tactics needed to fight in these spaces look completely different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The new digital battlefield.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our guide to this world is David Kirichenko, a fellow journalist who splits his time between the U.S. and Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m a war journalist and since 2022, I’ve been working on the front lines, um, in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But he’s also been reporting on another front: the digital fight between the two countries. Because the information space between Russia and Ukraine has become its own proxy war, with each vying for support at home and abroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It certainly has, I think, a very big impact on what goes on the physical battlefield just from the amount of influence and impact that you can have. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia’s a country long known for its sophisticated cyber warfare campaigns. In the current conflict, it’s been deploying vast amounts of disinformation online to weaken support for Ukraine around the world — on social media, fake news sites, even video games. This practice, as David points out, has deep roots, going back to the Cold War.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even since the 1980s, the Russians first started out by building like a newspaper in India. It prints a fake story and then you have a, a more slightly more credible one, print that, and then everyone just starts citing it and it circulates around the world. And an MIT study showed that, um, like the fake news it it spreads like six, seven times faster than the truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Enter: The Fellas. They’re a niche online community that has come together to fight Russian disinformation. They call themselves the North Atlantic Fellas Organization, or NAFO, for short. And because it’s the internet, their entire social media “army” has adopted the likeness of one very good boy: A Shiba Inu.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The members of this online battalion, who like to be called the Fellas, usually identify themselves on Twitter, or X, with a cartoon Shiba avatar. And they have one major purpose: To take up digital arms against Russian propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When a pro-Russian narrative pops up on social media, The Fellas leap into action. Their objective is to distract, mock and debunk the Kremlin’s talking points. Politico called the group “a sh*t posting, Twitter-trolling, dog-deploying social media army taking on Putin one meme at a time.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are now thousands of Fellas out there in the digital dog fight. They’re an organic phenomenon, borne out of internet culture. And they make anyone who earnestly tries to engage with their trolling look ridiculous. “Oh, you’re fighting with a cartoon Shiba at 3 pm on a Tuesday? Don’t you have anything better to do?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The best way to counter Russia propaganda is by mocking it, ridiculing it, and showing that like, this is how ridiculous it is. And like you just make a joke at it yourself by sharing it. Just the fact that, you know, over the years you had all these high-ranking Russian and then other officials engaging with cartoon dogs on, on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A less cheeky example of digital warfare is the IT Army of Ukraine. They’re a collective of volunteer hackers around the world who coordinate cyber attacks against Russia. They’ve attacked thousands of targets since the war began, from Russian banks to media outlets, and power grids. In June 2024, the group claimed responsibility for a large-scale cyberattack against Russia’s banking system, reportedly causing outages on banking websites, apps, and payment systems. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The IT Army of Ukraine isn’t a traditional military unit. It’s a sprawling, loosely organized network that runs primarily online. They post updates and send communications on their Telegram channel, where they have nearly 115,000 subscribers. They also have a website that lays out more information about their work and how to get involved. One page, for example, is titled: “Instructions for setting up attacks on the enemy country.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David has also been reporting on this group. The IT Army’s spokesperson told him last year that its volunteer hackers had caused something like a billion dollars in damage from these attacks. David explains the anatomy of an attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You typically have people that you have the toolkit installed so it doesn’t interfere with your, your Netflix or slow down your internet. You couldn’t set it to, I want to run from like 12:00 AM to 6:00 PM, I’m gonna leave my computer on. So if the IT army, like, runs the botnet and wants to direct an attack, it has the access to the compute to be able to run it and send pings from a lot of different places to overwhelm, um, a system. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so they like posted the, the toolkit onto their website so anyone’s able to go and, and download it. And it’s pretty, pretty simple to install it. And, uh, all you gotta do is just make sure that your computer is running and contributing your compute power to the botnet so that it’s overwhelming, like services when the attack begins.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve met people that said like, even my 12-year-old child is like doing these, uh, cyber attacks against Russia. They just download the toolkit and, you know, you set, you can even set a timer, allow your computer to participate in this botnet\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But these IT soldiers operate in a legally murky zone. There’s obviously something troubling about kids participating in cyberwar against another country. And, if someone participates in an attack from their couch on the other side of the world, are they breaking any laws?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is a gray space. How do governments prepare to legislate for this. Like, are you a combatant If you’re engaging in like cyber warfare? Are you breaking any laws? Should governments build a cyber reserve or some sort of like legal framework for their, like, people to be able to participate in this stuff? I mean, it, you know what, if you’re in Poland and then you’re conducting some cyber attacks and the Russians are very upset and they can launch a missile and they claim that you’re an enemy combatant. And yeah, just it’s, it’s a very challenging space and for I think lawmakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For all the reasons he just laid out, most of the people I spoke with wouldn’t talk openly about participating in the IT Army. Though one person told me that “literally everyone with a laptop did.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless, all these IT Army volunteers are having a real impact, David says. And this theme of a decentralized, grassroots approach as part of Ukraine’s strategy — chaotic with flashes of ingenuity — it keeps coming up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It ties back to Ukraine’s, wider story of, it’s a volunteer driven war effort. Like Ukrainian soldiers across the frontline are just dependent on online communities and, and volunteers. And so just people around the world have had such a big impact, both in information space, getting supplies to soldiers. Um, and one of the other ways has been on the cyber realm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This grassroots system is pretty much the opposite of how \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> does things. Which is centralized, top down, structured. Just a few solutions, scaled across every single military unit. They’re two competing philosophies fueling this technological arms race between Russia and Ukraine. A war of who’s quicker to out-innovate the other side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ukraine is so decentralized, it’s kind of its biggest strength and biggest weaknesses. You have a zoo of solutions of every volunteer group. They’re making, they’re iterating, but then there’s so many different technologies and, and weapons, that everyone’s using different things and it’s hard to standardize, but then it also makes it very effective. But then the Russians learn what’s working and over time they can steer \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the whole war machine to focus on a, on a few things, and it’s sharing those lessons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And no matter how things end, what they’re coming up with is changing what war looks like altogether. With major implications.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drones dominate not just the, the frontline itself, but it’s changed like naval warfare. Ukrainians’ naval drones have helped to neutralize a third of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, and they’re basically blockading Russia’s fleet that had to retreat from occupied Crimea. Ukraine has built, right, these ground robots that are becoming like mechanical medics, and the naval drones help shoot down multiple Russian helicopters, a couple of fighter jets. And those two fighter jets that were lost in Mayra, um, each like 50 million. So you can have a sea drone worth like 200, $300,000 with the, uh, missile worth that much or less, shooting down something that’s $50 million.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we’re going to continue to see the proliferation of like, cheaper, faster tech. And we gotta learn what, you know, how do we prepare for that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Technology is fundamentally a gray area. It’s built on these bursts of genius and promise, and also shows up in our modern world in dark and scary ways. It’s that first European computer, created out of the ashes of a bombed-out building in the Soviet Union. It’s Silicon Valley revolutionizing the world we now inhabit. For better, in some ways and in many ways, for worse: consolidating power, money, data, and influence, on an unimaginable scale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s the real story of the geeks of war. There are the lifesaving apps, like Air Alert, Telegram channels with real-time information about missiles and drones, VPNs connecting people in occupied territories to a bigger, broader, information ecosystem- Tools that are keeping people safe, connected and alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there are also new technologies that are killing people, and the potentially catastrophic consequences of cyber saber-rattling. Destroyer drones, yes, they can give an underdog country like Ukraine an edge, but when you stop and think about their capabilities, the damage that can be unleashed with a tool literally anyone can buy for just a few hundred dollars, it’s terrifying. And then of course, there’s cyberwarfare, which can take down a whole country’s infrastructure, cripple power grids, communication networks, financial systems and thrust us all into completely uncharted geopolitical territory. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It reminds me of the early days of social media. When Google was still telling us not to be evil. When social networks were described as a revolutionary, democratizing force, helping to topple authoritarian regimes, organize mass protest, connect people all over the world. But we all know what actually happened was a lot more complicated than Big Tech’s aspirational mottos. The lens flipped. The narrative cracked. And now we’re living on the other side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what will be the story we tell about all these tools 10, 20 years from now? The technology we’re seeing in this war is opening up a new frontier. But who knows where it will be deployed next: What it will look like, who it will target. The geeks are showing us the future we just don’t know where it will lead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Erica Hellerstein for her reporting and collaboration on this episode. Erica’s reporting was supported by a fellowship through the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Women on the Ground: Reporting from Ukraine’s Unseen Frontlines Initiative in partnership with the Howard G. Buffett Foundation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With that, it’s time to close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios in San Francisco, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Hambrick is our editor. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "The Ukraine-Russia war has been called the most technologically advanced war in history. Ukrainian citizens receive notifications about incoming missile and drone attacks through apps on their phones; remote-controlled drones swarm the front lines; and volunteer cyberwarfare units target Russian digital infrastructure. It’s all part of what some have dubbed Ukraine’s “Geeks of War.”In this episode, investigative reporter Erica Hellerstein takes us to the digital front line. On a recent trip to Ukraine, she met a husband-and-wife duo running a DIY nonprofit that supplies tech to defense forces, toured the recently-bombed headquarters of one of the country’s biggest tech companies, and explored how a swarm of online accounts with Shiba Inu avatars is countering Russian propaganda. Throughout, she looks at how Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation — and its surprising ties to Silicon Valley — are fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Ukraine-Russia war has been called the most technologically advanced war in history. Ukrainian citizens receive notifications about incoming missile and drone attacks through apps on their phones; remote-controlled drones swarm the front lines; and volunteer cyberwarfare units target Russian digital infrastructure. It’s all part of what some have dubbed Ukraine’s “Geeks of War.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, investigative reporter Erica Hellerstein takes us to the digital front line. On a recent trip to Ukraine, she met a husband-and-wife duo running a DIY nonprofit that supplies tech to defense forces, toured the recently-bombed headquarters of one of the country’s biggest tech companies, and explored how a swarm of online accounts with Shiba Inu avatars is countering Russian propaganda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout, she looks at how Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation — and its surprising ties to Silicon Valley — are fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5459549472\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ericahellerstein.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Erica Hellerstein\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, investigative journalist and feature writer\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/tnyradiohour/articles/dexter-filkins-on-drones-and-the-future-of-warfare?tab=transcript\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dexter Filkins on Drones and the Future of Warfare\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Howard, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WNYC\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kyivpost.com/post/47836\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lessons From the World’s First Full-Scale Cyberwar\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Kirichenko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kyiv Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/30/technology/russia-propaganda-video-games.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia Takes Its Ukraine Information War Into Video Games\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Steven Lee Myers and Kellen Browning, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/08/27/ukraine-drones-war-russia-00514712?utm_source=perplexity\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Ukraine remains the world’s most innovative war machine\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ibrahim Naber, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politico\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/03/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-drones-deaths.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Thousand Snipers in the Sky: The New War in Ukraine\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marc Santora, Lara Jakes, Andrew E. Kramer, Marco Hernandez and Liubov Sholudko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here on Close All Tabs, we cover all different sides of tech and the internet — the good, the bad, and the gray areas in between. Today, we’re doing something different, and taking our deep dive abroad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tech industry is increasingly intertwined with global conflict. Like how Silicon Valley’s AI obsession has fueled the automated warfare in Israel’s attacks on Gaza, or US bomb strikes in Iraq and Syria. So-called “defense tech” startups are attracting billions in funding. And like we’ve talked about on this show before, the Pentagon’s Cold War investments actually built Silicon Valley. This startup approach to weaponry has some pretty concerning implications for the future of war. And we’ve seen, in real time, the way these advancements in surveillance and automated warfare are being used to oppress people — like Palestinians in Gaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time in another region plagued by conflict, Ukraine, tech culture has become a vital part of the country’s resistance against Russian aggression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the kind of story that Erica Hellerstein stumbled upon, as she prepared for her own trip to Ukraine. Erica is a Bay Area investigative journalist who reports on human rights, politics, and tech. Back in June, she spent three weeks around Kyiv on a reporting trip, working on a project about her own family’s roots in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just before her trip, she heard a story about a Ukrainian engineer who had worked for a Bay Area tech company, but left his job to join his country’s defense forces. It got her thinking about the connection between Silicon Valley and the Ukrainian fight against Russian occupation. She started digging and according to the people she talked to, the tech sector is part of the reason Ukraine is still standing today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the Geeks of War — that’s what one Ukrainian drone operator nicknamed the group. Ukraine actually has a long history of technological innovation that is still alive today, and is fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this special episode, Erica will introduce us to a few of these “Geeks” and we’ll explore how this new generation is blurring the lines between the digital and physical battlefield — reshaping the next generation of conflict, and maybe even the future of war itself. I’ll let Erica take it from here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein, Reporter\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s around 11:55 pm when the first alarm goes off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Alarm sounding from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The noise shatters any illusion I had that my first night in Kyiv would be quiet or peaceful. I’ve been doomscrolling on my phone in a bomb shelter connected to my hotel in Kyiv. It’s surprisingly nice, with wifi, beverages, even bean bag chairs. On heavy nights of bombardment, like tonight, these sirens can go off multiple times and last for hours. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But most of the time I’m in Ukraine, I’m hearing these alarms digitally through an app on my phone called Air Alert. The Ukrainian government developed the app towards the beginning of the war, and it’s now been downloaded at least 27 million times. That’s in a country of 39 million people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Air Alert sounds a loud, jarring alarm whenever a Russian missile strike, or drone attack is detected in your region. And the voice telling you to find the nearest shelter? None other than Jedi master Luke Skywalker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attention. Air raid alert. Proceed to the nearest shelter. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Or rather, Mark Hamill, the actor who \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">played\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the beloved character in Star Wars. Hamill’s a vocal supporter of Ukraine so he pitched in to voice the English language version of the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t be careless. Your overconfidence is your weakness.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: I’ve learned, though, that the app only gives you basic information. To get details, I go to a different app, Telegram, where I follow a volunteer-run channel that gives updates about what kinds of missiles, or drones, are in the air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As if two apps aren’t enough, I’m also on WhatsApp messaging a group of journalists who are also in Kyiv. Some are in the same hotel shelter, others are sheltering in the hallways of their apartment buildings or metro stations. Everyone is sharing updates. “Drone flew right over our roof,” someone writes around 1 am. Another, two minutes later: “Loud explosion not far from my place.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, around 6am, another alert goes off. Once again, I hear a familiar voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attention. The air alert is over. May the Force be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That means, at least for now, the skies in Kyiv are safe. But as dawn breaks, the scale of the destruction starts to come into focus. About two miles from where I’m staying, an apartment building was hit by a ballistic missile and reduced to rubble – there are reports of people still trapped inside. A Kyiv metro station and university were also hit. All told, ten people, including a child, were killed in the onslaught.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This has become a regular occurrence in Ukraine. People have been living through these kinds of attacks for years. Unable to sleep through the wails of the sirens, reading news about buildings blown up, civilians killed and then somehow, still managing to go about their daily lives – going to work, picking up their kids, celebrating birthday parties, getting married.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the apps like Air Alert, technology has become a centerpiece in this war — hacking software, killer drones, medical robots delivering supplies to the frontlines. It’s transforming how people experience war. Now, every aspect of our lives, including conflict, is mediated by our digital world. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the people behind the screens can be a little mysterious. I wanted to learn more about them. To understand the workers and whizzes changing what warfare looks like, with major implications for the rest of the world. I wanted to meet the self-styled “Geeks of War.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for that, we’ll need to open a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet the Geeks\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: My first guide to the geeks is a couple I met in Lviv, which is a Western city in Ukraine. Dimko and Iryna Zhluktenko. They’re the co-founders of Dzyga’s Paw. It’s a Ukrainian nonprofit that donates defense technology to the frontlines. Both Iryna and Dimko used to work in tech. Dimko was a software engineer, Iryna a product analyst for the San Francisco-based tech company, JustAnswer. But after Russia invaded Ukraine, they quit their jobs and threw themselves into Dzyga’s Paw, which, by the way, is named after their adorable little fox-faced pup, Dzyga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I stop by the organization’s headquarters one night. They greet me with a tour of the space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can just come like this. So we used to live here, so this is actually, like a normal house location, but very old one is from 1906, so it’s more than 100 years old, and here you have our main working, like a little open space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: There’s a small party happening, with some women playing an intimidating-looking card game in the kitchen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The girls are playing [inaudible] Do you know this game? No, you should try. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I’m horrible at cards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We pass an entire wall full of framed thank you letters from different military units. There’s another wall, too, full of patches from soldiers and volunteer fighters, some coming from the other side of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow, I see Argentina. That’s far.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s from, yeah, from international volunteer who’s fighting here in Ukraine, from Argentina. This is a Estonian one from Estonian cyber defense forces. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iryna shows me another decoration tacked to the wall: A downed Russian drone. And it’s in really good shape. So she decides to give it a whirl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me try to do it. So it turns on. And if I had a controller, if I had a like TX controller, I could launch it and start it, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is like a war treasure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looted from Russians. Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once I tear myself away from the shiny objects, I sit down with Dimko, Iryna, and of course, Dzyga, who has extreme zoomies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She is the boss of the operation.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Dzyga barks]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They tell me that the project came about in the early months of the war. Of course, like so many other Ukrainians, they wanted to help. And they started to think about what they could bring to the table. And that’s when Dimko and Iryna, had their \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a-ha\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> moment. “We’re nerds!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ve decided that well, we might just use our, uh, tech experience, our tech geekiness, uh, to, uh, innovate. Some of the approaches on the battlefield.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We figured out, okay, we can help better when our expertise is. So basically we started looking more into more advanced equipment. We started looking into drone and things like that and because we had friends in the military, uh, it was like our first point of contact because like we had people we could trust. And we started, you know, buying and supplying some tech devices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They started with what their friends in the military really needed: equipment. Drones, Starlink units — which provide remote internet access – long-range encrypted radios, thermal cameras. Dzyga’s paw has since grown from a scrappy idea into a multi-million dollar nonprofit. In October alone, they delivered over $230,000 worth of equipment to the military, according to the organization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And all of this high tech gear goes to soldiers and drone operators who are stationed near the frontlines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They often work in hideouts, or command centers, miles from the front, flying drones by remote control while wearing a headset that shows exactly what the device sees through its camera. Other soldiers sit beside them, watching live maps on screens, calling out targets and coordinates in real time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dimko explains what these command centers look like in action.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Basically an underground shelter with, uh, tons of, uh, big ass four screen TVs or something. Uh, and guys looking like they just finished the MIT or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So literally geeks of the war, sitting in those command centers and analyzing what is happening at the battlefield, and then suggesting what decisions should be taken to be the most effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> About a year ago, Dimko also enlisted as a drone operator for a Ukrainian military unit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because this is my chance to, uh, well defend my home, defend my family, and, uh, in the end defend my country.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically the job is to do the reconnaissance. Um, you have this big UAV that, uh, like a fixed wing kind of a thing that you launch in the air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drone warfare has quickly become one of the defining characteristics of this conflict. The kind Dimko pilots are called UAVs — or unmanned aerial vehicles. They look like small airplanes, and like Dimko said, they’re mainly used for reconnaissance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has the radio connection, so you have the radio signal link, uh, to it. And, uh, you have the live stream from that, you stream that footage into one of the IT systems that we have, uh, in the armed forces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of the people interested in the situation in the area. Can watch that live stream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there’s this other kind of drone, called an FPV. That stands for first-person-view. They’re some of the most common drones on the battlefield right now. Once upon a time, these drones were mainly the toys of hobbyists and creatives. You know that insufferable wedding reel you saw on Instagram? Probably shot on an FPV drone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Russia invaded, the Ukrainian military started rolling them out on a massive scale. They cost next to nothing. They’re endlessly scalable, and for a country like Ukraine, with far fewer resources and manpower than Russia, they’ve been a game-changer. Drones that can be bought for just a few hundred dollars are now taking out Russian tanks and artillery worth millions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are swarms of these things buzzing around now on the front, some with cameras for spying, others loaded with explosives to detonate on their targets. And they’re responsible for massive damage. Drones now account for as much as seventy percent of casualties on both sides, according to Ukrainian officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Experts are already warning that this rapid, wide-scale shift could dramatically change the future of conflict. Other countries are likely to learn from or maybe adopt the technologies and tactics deployed in this war. And It’s not just militaries that can repurpose these technologies. Paramilitaries, militias, and extremist groups can all easily purchase and deploy drone technology. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As drone warfare becomes more lethal on the battlefield, Dimko tells me that his work is also getting more treacherous as the war progresses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is very and very dangerous because the kill zone is getting wider and wider because of the danger of FPV drones there in our direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have a lot of, uh, Russian groups there, specifically hunting pilots like us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But even though Dimko is now an official member of the Ukrainian military, the organization he helps run, Dzyga’s Paw, started completely outside of that system as a grassroots, volunteer mission. And now it’s directly helping units like his and this is really common. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine is heavily dependent on volunteers. People like the Dzyga’s Paw team, delivering supplies to the frontlines, volunteer air defense groups that shoot down Russian drones in the middle of the night, or Ukrainian tech companies building safety apps for civilians. All of this experimentation, this volunteer work – it’s been a really important part of Ukraine’s survival. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a classic battlefield, it’d fail. But, um, it’s a constant competition of technology again and I still feel we are more rapid. We are more fast in terms of inventing something new. I wanna believe at least that, um, it all comes from our initial desire to survive and to fight for our country ’cause uh, there were many different people with different careers and professions, but, uh, huge part of them switched to thinking in this direction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this bottom-up, grassroots approach represents a fundamental difference between how Ukraine and Russia operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Compared to Russia, it’s like they don’t have a, they like, everything is very like, top down. It’s controlled from the,yeah, from the state. So, indeed they have great engineers, but they are given like a task to develop something, to come up with a solution. While in Ukraine, it’s more of a like, grassroots thing and sometimes something brilliant just comes out of nowhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So how did Ukraine get here to this nimble and adaptive space for innovation and experimentation? And why does it all remind me so much of the tech culture in the Bay Area? We’ll get into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To help us understand Ukraine’s tech culture, we’re taking a visit to MacPaw — one of the most successful tech companies to come out of Ukraine before the war. They created the CleanMyMac software. I’m at the company’s headquarters in Kyiv.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This building was actually hit by a Russian missile back in December. There are still some traces of the attack around the building: Window glass damaged, parts of the exterior crumbling. Here’s MacPaw CEO Oleksandr Kosovan describing that day:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The rockets were very powerful so they destroyed all the facade of the building. All the windows were shattered. A lot of damage inside the office, but nothing super critical. We were very lucky in that none of our employees were injured. It was scary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> MacPaw has built several digital tools to support Ukraine during the war, including an app to help Ukrainian companies check on employees after attacks, software that helps computers identify Russian malware, and a special VPN to help people in occupied territories circumvent Russian censorship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While getting a tour of the MacPaw office, something catches my eye. It’s a wall filled with a collection of old Apple products from across the ages. It’s got ancient looking grey computers, and those bulky, colorful desktops that always felt to me like the computer version of a jolly rancher. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember having these in school. It brings me back. Very nostalgic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oleksandr created this wall as an homage to Apple, which has always been an inspiration to him. Before the war, he wanted to create a museum full of the company’s products. For now, this wall is a little shrine in the middle of the MacPaw office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a Bay Area resident, it’s kind of funny, being here and seeing traces of where I’m from all over the tech industry here. Granted, Silicon Valley is hugely influential but what surprises me is just how intertwined Silicon Valley and Ukraine’s tech industries are. Like how Iryna of Dzyga’s Paw worked for a San Francisco startup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is not unusual I’m learning. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For years, tech companies from San Francisco to San Jose have relied on Ukrainian engineers for their technical skills, English fluency, and lower labor costs. Companies like Google, Grammarly (which was founded by Ukrainians), Ring, JetBridge, and Caspio all had employees based in Ukraine when Russia began its full-scale invasion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a general cultural ethos here that feels familiar to my Bay Area sensibilities, like the food trucks, ping pong tables, and hoodies I see all over tech campuses in Kyiv. There was one friendship bracelet-wearing tech worker I talk to who tells me all about her recent ayahuasca healing journey in South America. I felt like I was back at home.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are all the personal connections I notice with the Ukrainians I meet. Some worked for Bay Area companies. Or, have friends who live there for work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And since the war began, these transnational ties have become a quiet but meaningful network of support for Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Silicon Valley–based nonprofit Nova Ukraine, which was co-founded by a former Facebook and Google employee from Kharkiv, has raised over $160 million in humanitarian aid.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iryna’s old employer, JustAnswer, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">has expanded its Ukrainian workforce. It funded a pediatric mental health center in the country as well. Caspio \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">helped relocate dozens of Ukrainian staffers safely out of the country, and\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> continues supporting staff remotely. Sometimes, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">company Zoom calls will be interrupted by the wail of a siren telling Ukrainian workers to go to a bomb shelter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While there’s a lot of overlap between these two parts of the world, the innovation mindset that runs through Ukraine’s tech sector has deep roots. It started long before Steve Jobs or Silicon Valley exploded onto the global scene, like, decades before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1951, when Ukraine was still part of the USSR, engineers on the outskirts of Kyiv developed the first computer in all of Europe. They worked around the clock, under tough conditions, in a crumbling old building that was ravaged by bombing during WWII. The people who made this computer, they’re considered the godfathers of Ukrainian IT. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oleksandr again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the, uh [inaudible] or IT on that era was actually originated from Ukraine. And um, beside that, there were like so many engineers, like my father was an engineer. There are so, so many great engineers that were working for this industry back then. And, and this basically were like the birth of the modern IT industry in Ukraine. So when the USSR collapsed, this talent and this, uh, uh, knowledge, uh, stayed in, in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And today, the industry those engineers helped to create now plays a significant role in Ukraine’s economy. In 2024, Ukraine’s IT sector contributed 3.4% to Ukraine’s GDP, behind only the agricultural industry, according to a report published by the IT Association of Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literally hundreds of thousands of people joined, uh, Ukrainian army. They started to bring their experience and their, like, creative, uh, vision and approach, uh, to the Army. And they started to apply, uh, some changes from, from bottom up. Uh, because, uh, these generals here, they probably know how to, uh, find the war of previous era, uh, but they don’t, uh, definitely understand how they can apply these technologies in order to, to receive some, some advantage. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To this point, we’ve been mostly talking about the physical battlefield, like drones attacking targets in the real world. But a new frontline has emerged in this war — the internet. And the tools and tactics needed to fight in these spaces look completely different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The new digital battlefield.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our guide to this world is David Kirichenko, a fellow journalist who splits his time between the U.S. and Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m a war journalist and since 2022, I’ve been working on the front lines, um, in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But he’s also been reporting on another front: the digital fight between the two countries. Because the information space between Russia and Ukraine has become its own proxy war, with each vying for support at home and abroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It certainly has, I think, a very big impact on what goes on the physical battlefield just from the amount of influence and impact that you can have. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia’s a country long known for its sophisticated cyber warfare campaigns. In the current conflict, it’s been deploying vast amounts of disinformation online to weaken support for Ukraine around the world — on social media, fake news sites, even video games. This practice, as David points out, has deep roots, going back to the Cold War.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even since the 1980s, the Russians first started out by building like a newspaper in India. It prints a fake story and then you have a, a more slightly more credible one, print that, and then everyone just starts citing it and it circulates around the world. And an MIT study showed that, um, like the fake news it it spreads like six, seven times faster than the truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Enter: The Fellas. They’re a niche online community that has come together to fight Russian disinformation. They call themselves the North Atlantic Fellas Organization, or NAFO, for short. And because it’s the internet, their entire social media “army” has adopted the likeness of one very good boy: A Shiba Inu.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The members of this online battalion, who like to be called the Fellas, usually identify themselves on Twitter, or X, with a cartoon Shiba avatar. And they have one major purpose: To take up digital arms against Russian propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When a pro-Russian narrative pops up on social media, The Fellas leap into action. Their objective is to distract, mock and debunk the Kremlin’s talking points. Politico called the group “a sh*t posting, Twitter-trolling, dog-deploying social media army taking on Putin one meme at a time.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are now thousands of Fellas out there in the digital dog fight. They’re an organic phenomenon, borne out of internet culture. And they make anyone who earnestly tries to engage with their trolling look ridiculous. “Oh, you’re fighting with a cartoon Shiba at 3 pm on a Tuesday? Don’t you have anything better to do?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The best way to counter Russia propaganda is by mocking it, ridiculing it, and showing that like, this is how ridiculous it is. And like you just make a joke at it yourself by sharing it. Just the fact that, you know, over the years you had all these high-ranking Russian and then other officials engaging with cartoon dogs on, on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A less cheeky example of digital warfare is the IT Army of Ukraine. They’re a collective of volunteer hackers around the world who coordinate cyber attacks against Russia. They’ve attacked thousands of targets since the war began, from Russian banks to media outlets, and power grids. In June 2024, the group claimed responsibility for a large-scale cyberattack against Russia’s banking system, reportedly causing outages on banking websites, apps, and payment systems. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The IT Army of Ukraine isn’t a traditional military unit. It’s a sprawling, loosely organized network that runs primarily online. They post updates and send communications on their Telegram channel, where they have nearly 115,000 subscribers. They also have a website that lays out more information about their work and how to get involved. One page, for example, is titled: “Instructions for setting up attacks on the enemy country.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David has also been reporting on this group. The IT Army’s spokesperson told him last year that its volunteer hackers had caused something like a billion dollars in damage from these attacks. David explains the anatomy of an attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You typically have people that you have the toolkit installed so it doesn’t interfere with your, your Netflix or slow down your internet. You couldn’t set it to, I want to run from like 12:00 AM to 6:00 PM, I’m gonna leave my computer on. So if the IT army, like, runs the botnet and wants to direct an attack, it has the access to the compute to be able to run it and send pings from a lot of different places to overwhelm, um, a system. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so they like posted the, the toolkit onto their website so anyone’s able to go and, and download it. And it’s pretty, pretty simple to install it. And, uh, all you gotta do is just make sure that your computer is running and contributing your compute power to the botnet so that it’s overwhelming, like services when the attack begins.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve met people that said like, even my 12-year-old child is like doing these, uh, cyber attacks against Russia. They just download the toolkit and, you know, you set, you can even set a timer, allow your computer to participate in this botnet\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But these IT soldiers operate in a legally murky zone. There’s obviously something troubling about kids participating in cyberwar against another country. And, if someone participates in an attack from their couch on the other side of the world, are they breaking any laws?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is a gray space. How do governments prepare to legislate for this. Like, are you a combatant If you’re engaging in like cyber warfare? Are you breaking any laws? Should governments build a cyber reserve or some sort of like legal framework for their, like, people to be able to participate in this stuff? I mean, it, you know what, if you’re in Poland and then you’re conducting some cyber attacks and the Russians are very upset and they can launch a missile and they claim that you’re an enemy combatant. And yeah, just it’s, it’s a very challenging space and for I think lawmakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For all the reasons he just laid out, most of the people I spoke with wouldn’t talk openly about participating in the IT Army. Though one person told me that “literally everyone with a laptop did.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless, all these IT Army volunteers are having a real impact, David says. And this theme of a decentralized, grassroots approach as part of Ukraine’s strategy — chaotic with flashes of ingenuity — it keeps coming up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It ties back to Ukraine’s, wider story of, it’s a volunteer driven war effort. Like Ukrainian soldiers across the frontline are just dependent on online communities and, and volunteers. And so just people around the world have had such a big impact, both in information space, getting supplies to soldiers. Um, and one of the other ways has been on the cyber realm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This grassroots system is pretty much the opposite of how \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> does things. Which is centralized, top down, structured. Just a few solutions, scaled across every single military unit. They’re two competing philosophies fueling this technological arms race between Russia and Ukraine. A war of who’s quicker to out-innovate the other side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ukraine is so decentralized, it’s kind of its biggest strength and biggest weaknesses. You have a zoo of solutions of every volunteer group. They’re making, they’re iterating, but then there’s so many different technologies and, and weapons, that everyone’s using different things and it’s hard to standardize, but then it also makes it very effective. But then the Russians learn what’s working and over time they can steer \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the whole war machine to focus on a, on a few things, and it’s sharing those lessons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And no matter how things end, what they’re coming up with is changing what war looks like altogether. With major implications.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drones dominate not just the, the frontline itself, but it’s changed like naval warfare. Ukrainians’ naval drones have helped to neutralize a third of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, and they’re basically blockading Russia’s fleet that had to retreat from occupied Crimea. Ukraine has built, right, these ground robots that are becoming like mechanical medics, and the naval drones help shoot down multiple Russian helicopters, a couple of fighter jets. And those two fighter jets that were lost in Mayra, um, each like 50 million. So you can have a sea drone worth like 200, $300,000 with the, uh, missile worth that much or less, shooting down something that’s $50 million.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we’re going to continue to see the proliferation of like, cheaper, faster tech. And we gotta learn what, you know, how do we prepare for that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Technology is fundamentally a gray area. It’s built on these bursts of genius and promise, and also shows up in our modern world in dark and scary ways. It’s that first European computer, created out of the ashes of a bombed-out building in the Soviet Union. It’s Silicon Valley revolutionizing the world we now inhabit. For better, in some ways and in many ways, for worse: consolidating power, money, data, and influence, on an unimaginable scale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s the real story of the geeks of war. There are the lifesaving apps, like Air Alert, Telegram channels with real-time information about missiles and drones, VPNs connecting people in occupied territories to a bigger, broader, information ecosystem- Tools that are keeping people safe, connected and alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there are also new technologies that are killing people, and the potentially catastrophic consequences of cyber saber-rattling. Destroyer drones, yes, they can give an underdog country like Ukraine an edge, but when you stop and think about their capabilities, the damage that can be unleashed with a tool literally anyone can buy for just a few hundred dollars, it’s terrifying. And then of course, there’s cyberwarfare, which can take down a whole country’s infrastructure, cripple power grids, communication networks, financial systems and thrust us all into completely uncharted geopolitical territory. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It reminds me of the early days of social media. When Google was still telling us not to be evil. When social networks were described as a revolutionary, democratizing force, helping to topple authoritarian regimes, organize mass protest, connect people all over the world. But we all know what actually happened was a lot more complicated than Big Tech’s aspirational mottos. The lens flipped. The narrative cracked. And now we’re living on the other side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what will be the story we tell about all these tools 10, 20 years from now? The technology we’re seeing in this war is opening up a new frontier. But who knows where it will be deployed next: What it will look like, who it will target. The geeks are showing us the future we just don’t know where it will lead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Erica Hellerstein for her reporting and collaboration on this episode. Erica’s reporting was supported by a fellowship through the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Women on the Ground: Reporting from Ukraine’s Unseen Frontlines Initiative in partnership with the Howard G. Buffett Foundation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With that, it’s time to close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios in San Francisco, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Hambrick is our editor. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Ubisoft, publisher of the sprawling open-world racing game \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Crew\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> shut down the game’s servers, cutting off access to even its single-player mode, fans were outraged. The moment tapped into their decades of frustration with the gaming industry’s push toward online-only content — and what some now call the growing epidemic of “game death.” In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by Ross Scott, a filmmaker and YouTube creator who launched the “Stop Killing Games” campaign. They’ll cover the push for new regulations requiring publishers to plan for the end of their games’ lifespans. Then, Morgan talks with gaming journalist Nicole Carpenter about the passionate community that formed around the mobile game \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kim Kardashian: Hollywood\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and how gamers grieve the loss of their favorite virtual worlds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8671440434\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@Accursed_Farms\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross Scott\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, filmmaker, creator, and founder of the Stop Killing Games movement\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/sweetpotatoes?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nicole Carpenter\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, freelance reporter\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/anthem-server-shutdown-trying-for-the-first-time-bioware-ea/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With Anthem’s Impending Server Shutdown, I’m Trying It For The First Time\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aftermath\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.polygon.com/24152760/kim-kardashian-hollywood-glu-mobile-game-legacy/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kim Kardashian: Hollywood has an unlikely, lasting place in gaming history\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polygon\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcmag.com/news/stop-killing-games-campaign-closes-in-on-getting-eu-regulators-to-intervene\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Stop Killing Games’ Campaign Closes in on Getting EU Regulators to Intervene\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jon Martindale, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">PC Mag\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/stop-killing-games-demands-for-game-ownership-must-also-include-workers-rights-262774\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Stop Killing Games’: Demands for game ownership must also include workers’ rights\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Louis-Etienne Dubois and Miikka J. Lehtonen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Conversation\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/w70Xc9CStoE?si=-lmbSPUoeyXVYxa1\">The largest campaign ever to stop publishers destroying games\u003c/a> — Ross Scott, \u003ci>Accursed Farms (YouTube) \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/strong> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2014, Ubisoft launched a racing game called The Crew. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Driving sounds from The Crew video game]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All units, there’s a dangerous driver in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The crew has a real fast and furious vibe to it. You play as a guy who’s been framed for the murder of his brother, who takes a deal with the FBI to infiltrate and take down a corrupt criminal organization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Driving sounds from The Crew video game]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All units, rollover in place. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to work your way to the top, you have to drive a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving games, they’re less common as they used to be. So the ones that are good or semi-decent tend to have a lingering fan base now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Ross Scott, a filmmaker who runs the YouTube channel Accursed Farms. He’s also a gamer and was a huge fan of The Crew. The game had an intriguing story, cool missions to complete, and all of these ways to customize your car to make it feel like it’s really yours. But what Ross loved most about the game was the driving. The Crew was an open world game and he spent hours exploring. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it still is the second largest driving game ever made and it contains kind of a miniaturized version of the continental United States where you can literally drive for hours in it and see the different landscapes like the Rockies in the west or swamps in the south. They kind of had miniaturized versions of different cities in there too. So you have San Francisco, LA, New York, Miami. Like, you can go by the Pentagon and you can go by Mount Rushmore. It’s exactly the sort of game you would hope to see from a big company with lots of resources to throw at something. It is just so huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, there is this one aspect of the game that always bugged Ross. You needed an internet connection to play, which meant that The Crew would only remain playable as long as Ubisoft kept its servers running, even in single player mode. That meant that if the company ever decided to pull the plug, the game would be dead. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literally no one can ever play it again. It’s just not even possible no matter how much you do want to play it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s exactly what happened to The Crew. In the spring of 2024, about a decade after launching the game, Ubisoft shut down the crew’s servers. The company said that the shutdown was due to, “upcoming server infrastructure and licensing constraints.” Most of the time, when a product is discontinued, it’s removed from the shelves. But if you already owned that product, you can generally keep using it. But in this case, Ubisoft made it impossible to play The Crew at all. The company even revoked digital licenses for the game, preventing players from setting up private servers, which would have allowed them to continue playing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a seasoned gamer, Ross knew that The Crew was fragile and susceptible to game death, but it didn’t make the shutdown any less infuriating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The closest real world analogy I can think of would be printers. Say you buy a printer for your computer, but then after two years it just stops. And then you find out, oh, that’s because it was connecting to the server. Well, it still has ink. It can still run, I mean, physically run, but it just won’t print anything because it was depending on that signal from the company. And they just decided to cut it and you can’t use your printer now. That’s essentially what’s happening with these games. And they can say, well, we designed it that way. It’s like, yeah, but you didn’t have to, and it’s still very capable of printing things without you doing this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As someone who started gaming decades ago, Ross has experienced game death over and over again. The Crew was his last straw and spurred him to start the Stop Killing Games movement, which has sparked global debate about the issue.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re exploring what happens when games die, how the industry got here, why gamers are up in arms about it, and whether there’s any right way to let a game die gracefully. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. How do games die? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get to the bottom of this, we’re calling up an industry expert, Nicole Carpenter. She’s a journalist who’s been covering the games industry for years. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to start off, like, what goes into the decision to take a game offline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, let me take a step back. Because when we’re talking about games that are being taken offline, we’re taking about games that are multiplayer, usually, and online games, so games with an online component. Like, a game that you purchased for the Nintendo 64 back in the day, that game’s always gonna be there. But for a game with an on-line component, it relies on servers that the company controls, and they can take those servers down at any time they want. And usually, it’s related to money. When a game has a player base that is really small or a game that isn’t generating enough money to make it worth it for the corporation that is running this game, that’s often when you will see a game go offline. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, let’s look at one specific game as a case study and it’s one that I really loved like, when it first launched: Kim Kardashian Hollywood. Kim Kardashian Hollywood was a free-to-play mobile game set in a cartoon version of Los Angeles. Once you level up enough and pay real-world money for in-game perks, you could take your private jet around the world, photoshoots in Paris, vacationing in Bora Bora, Fashion Week in New York. You get the idea. It was an animated slice of the real Kim Kardashian’s life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This game was about rising through the Hollywood rankings. You’re trying to get to the A list, but you’re like really far down in the alphabet. You meet Kim Kardashian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood] I need something cute but super quick. Can you help me find something? I could really use your help. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she helps you like rise through the influencer, social media celebrity ranking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood]: This is super cute. Thank you so much for your help.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game was based around a storyline that follows you throughout that journey, but it was also largely about fashion, collecting fashion items, and building up this amazing library of clothes… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood]: You look stunning. Welcome to the A-List!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…doing it you know with Kim Kardashian as your best friend. It was interesting because it was tapping into culture. You could go on dates, photoshoots. You can visit your friends, and it got frequent updates and it referenced things that were happening in the world, both in Kim Kardashian’s life, but also just kind of like cultural moments as as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember they responded like in real time to real-world fashion trends like when off-the-shoulder tops were in they had off- the-shoulders tops in Kim Kardashian Hollywood. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. A thing that was also really interesting about this game is that it was funny. It kind of saw how ridiculous, absurd this idea is. You know, you’re Kim Kardashian’s best friend. It’s very self-aware in its humor. And that was another draw for people, is that it was really earnest, but it was also self- aware. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it was like, playing on this kind of parasocial relationship with like, Kim Kardashian, the real person, and then also Kim Kardashian your in-game friend. Yeah. What was the emotional investment here? Like, why were people so into this game beyond the fashion and the glam of Kim Kardashian? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a game that updates so frequently, it becomes like a ritualized experience and you are coming into this day knowing that like, there are going to be things for you to do and to check off on this game. And so it really becomes embedded in a person’s life in a way, because you expect there’s something new to do in that game. And I think that is part of what made this game such a big part of people’s lives is because it became that sort of daily habit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 1] When I tell you I am a A plus plus plus member in the top 100 of the game world, number 11, if we want to be exact, 595.7 million fans. Baby, I take this game very seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also the community around it. Kim Kardashian: Hollywood is not a multiplayer game, but online, a community built around it, people who are sharing the creations that they made, sharing their fashion, talking about the storylines, talking about the characters, and you’re able to build a community from something like, that isn’t multiplayer game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Players were, you know, getting emotionally attached to the game, but they also, to get all these outfits, to get these fun little accessories, they had to spend real money. Can you talk about the kind of like monetary investment people were making into this game? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were spending a lot of money. People were spending thousands of dollars on this sort of thing. And the fashion was compelling enough that it was worth it for a lot of people and they spent so much. This game generated hundreds of millions of dollars. I believe the total was around $600 million over the course of its lifetime, maybe more. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite making so much money, in 2024, the studio decided to shut down Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. Nicole said it was a combination of diminishing returns, a complicated licensing agreement with Kim Kardashian herself, and a larger move away from mobile gaming by the parent Studio EA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it was announced that this game was going offline, the community was so, so sad. One of the things that popped up almost instantly was people creating funeral outfits. People were creating like the most fabulous, amazing, all-black, just like, funeral garb to wear to the Kim Kardashian: Hollywood funeral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 2] Kim Kardashian, are you okay with this? What is going on? Please do not take this game. What am I supposed to do? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 3] Because I worked hard to get to level 26 and it’s being ripped away from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 4] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I tell you I have invested so much time and money, it’s ridiculous. I have purchased so many outfits, jewelry, makeup, blemish, all of that. Kim, I need my money back or you can send me my outfits in the mail, whichever one you prefer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The community was devastated. They were so devastated that some people immediately started spinning up like, so where are we going next? What game are we moving on to? Some fans are even working on creating a new game to replace Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. I mean, let’s talk about the industry factors here in taking a game offline. Who’s making this decision to pull the plug? I would say it’s a mixture of the publishers and developers that are making these decisions and that for the majority of games, it is largely coming down to: is this making enough money to make the cost of the servers worth it? And a lot of the times they have been running these servers for years, like decades, and the player base has diminished. In other cases, these games have been running for weeks and the players have diminished and they pull the plug.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like now a lot of games are taken offline before they even have a chance to like build a fanbase. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah. There’s one game that came out recently, it’s called Concord, and it just didn’t hit with people. It was released and it never had that surge of players and just immediately started declining. It was turned off weeks into its release. I’m not sure why you would shut a game down after just weeks, you know, it it’s kind of ridiculous because there isn’t even a chance for the developers to improve a game, to make patches, to keep updating a game. Because there are instances where a game is released, it is released poorly, and then it can gain an audience back. And for a game like Concord, it shut down just weeks after. There isn’t even that chance. Games take a really long time to make, and there’s a lot of money that goes into that as well and for that to get thrown away so quickly without giving it a chance is like, pretty sad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Nicole explained, there are a lot of industry factors that affect whether or not a game stays online. And now the odds are stacked against any new game that has to compete in this market. Is game death inevitable? Is there any way to future-proof our favorite online games? We’ll try to answer those questions after the break. Okay, we’re back. So, is game death inevitable? Well, the tides may finally be turning against the practice of pulling the plug on games. Time for a new tab. What is Stop Killing Games? For the most part, the issue of game death boils down to something called digital rights management, or DRM. We don’t technically own digital downloads, and even if you paid for it, your access to this content can be revoked at the whims of publishers. This goes for e-books, digital movies, TV shows, and, of course, games. And this DRM issue really bothers Ross, the YouTuber we heard from earlier. He says it wasn’t always like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the transition where things really started shifting, in my opinion, I think was around 2004, 2005. That’s when you could buy games as a one-time purchase, but then you would still have to connect to the publisher in order for it to run. You don’t own the contents of what’s on the disk, you just own the piece of plastic. I’d say around the mid-2000s is when you started seeing a shift that, no, even if you bought that game, even if it was a physical copy at some point in the future, it became impossible to play it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross was upset when The Crew shut down, but he wasn’t surprised. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Me liking the game was actually just a coincidence. I would have done this for any game because this issue has bothered me for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He has been sounding the alarm since 2019, when he went viral with a video essay about game ownership.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ross Scott in Youtube Speech]: Now I’ll warn you, this video is gonna be long and could get boring in spots, but it’s necessary. See, this is my declaration of war on games as a service.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Games as a service, or live service games, are typically online only, include microtransactions or subscription fees, and are continuously updated with new features. But what it really boils down to is the fact that players don’t control their access to the game. They depend on the company to keep it afloat. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross posted that video six years ago, and he was already fed up back then. By the time Ubisoft killed The Crew, after years of watching beloved games bite the dust. He was ready to fight back. In April of last year, right after The Crew went down for good, Ross launched a campaign he called Stop Killing Games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games has been me just trying to work backwards from my conclusion, which is, I want to try and stop games being effectively killed this way. This was not hardly the first game that this sort of thing had happened to, but…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier this year, Ross and a handful of Stop Killing Games volunteers conducted an informal report on the playability of 731 online-only games. Of those 731 games, nearly 70% were either dead or at risk of game death because publishers had no public plans for preserving them. The Crew is just one of many in a long line of dead and potentially doomed games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realized if we don’t act on this game, yeah, there’s gonna be others, but this is about as good as it gets to try and test this because it was a relatively large game. It had, I think, a maximum of 12 million owners. It was also kind of black and white what happened where no one could run it again. Just the whole thing was gone. And the publisher was located in France, which has many more consumer protection laws than many other countries. So it would kind of maximize our chances that something could be done about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He posted his campaign manifesto on YouTube. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ross Scott in Youtube Speech] Honestly, everything about what I’ve been doing has been an amateur effort. I don’t even want to be doing this. But if you care about this issue, I’m what you’re stuck with, because nobody else has stepped up. And I guess there is one thing that makes me a good candidate for this, and that, at least with me, you’re getting maximum hustle. I have decades worth of resentment on this issue. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games started as a website, guiding gamers on how to petition their local governments and hold game companies to a higher standard. Then it became a movement. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realized that we could try to submit this to consumer protection agencies in various countries because it had so many players. We could still get, we did end up getting several thousand complaints sent. That meant a lot of people still had proof of purchase of it. I kind of saw this as my only chance, momentum-wise, to do anything about this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games organized government petitions and consumer agency complaints in Canada, the UK, Australia, and throughout Europe. They’ve had mixed results introducing legislation, but they might have some actual movement in the EU. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big one ended up being a European citizens initiative where if enough people signed it, then that could be brought before the EU commission to create new law on it. I called it the moonshot. I wasn’t sure if it was realistic or not. And we ended up passing the signature threshold and now it’s kind of going through the government procedures. And I’m somewhat optimistic because if this practice of you know selling someone a game, then disabling it at an undisclosed date later, but keeping the money, if that was all completely legal, it’s been over a year since we submitted that. I would think they’d be able to give an answer by now saying, sorry, but this is lawful and you don’t have any case on this. I think what’s happening is this is a giant gray area in the law and they’re trying to unravel it all. If you have no idea how long a game you’re buying is going to last, I think that’s pretty relevant information. Because the span of online-only games, the shortest we’re aware of was a game called The Culling 2. It lasted eight days before shutting down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the longest that was made as a one-time purchase, so, you know, not a subscription, is Guild Wars, which is still going. So if you bought the disk in 2005 and never got around to playing it, you can still play it now, even though it’s online only. So that’s no standard at all for what consumer expectations are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How did other people respond to you saying like, hey, we should do something about this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the majority of people thought, yeah, that’s a good idea because it’s kind of common sense that if you buy something, you should be able to keep it. This was never really codified in the laws, whether this was legal. It’s just that it had never been tested. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like the most potential for real legislation here is in the EU. Do you think that could work in the US? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have talked to some US lawyers on it, they all agree that the only way to fix this is through an act of Congress. So I’m pretty pessimistic about being able to influence anything along those lines. That said, I think most of the world will get the benefits downstream if we win in a big enough country. Like, there’s actually a real world example of this sort of thing. In 2014, Australia’s consumer protection agency sued Valve for not allowing refunds of games people bought on Steam. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Valve started as a game developer and now owns Steam, the biggest digital platform for PC games. It’s where the majority of PC games are bought and sold, all digitally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Valve lost that case so afterwards, rather than just allowing Australians to refund their games, they just made that global policy because I think they just didn’t want to deal with this in more countries and have more legal fees. And now that’s kind of common practice that you can refund a game if you only played a five minutes or something like that. The cost of basically not destroying a game and having some sort of end of life plan for it once the company’s done does not have to be that much if it’s planned for from the beginning. It’s just one step out of hundreds of making a game. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think what would happen is if they realize that there’s gonna be fines or some penalty for not having that, if they wanna sell in the EU, which has something like 450 million people. It’s a sizable market. We’ll decide, okay, when we shut down the game, we’ll release an end of life patch so people can keep playing it, but we don’t have to support anything. They may as well roll it out globally afterwards. So just because they’ll have already done the work on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It doesn’t always have to be this way. Since Ross and the Stop Killing Games volunteers put together that playability report, they found that over 250 games survived after publishers took them offline. Let’s talk about these possible solutions in a new tab. Is there life after game death? That playability report from Ross and the Stop Killing Games volunteers, they found that over 230 games survived because of fan preservation projects. Another 30 are still playable thanks to their developers making end-of-life plans. What does that really mean? What does end- of-life care for a game look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our initiative is structured this way in that we’re actually trying to leave maximum flexibility to publishers and developers and how they solve it. Every game is different. If there’s just one thing to do, it’s have an end-of-life plan for when you have to end support to the game so that it’s not impossible to play it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, the most common way to do that might be to just, if it’s a single-player one, have an offline mode. If it’s smaller scale game, maybe allow like, private servers that people can host. If it was a big complex one, like an MMO, then maybe having something where they release like a version of the server software that customers can maybe run separately. But we’re not mandating any one solution, but just realize that you won’t be able to support your game forever. That’s kind of inevitable. And as long as that’s planned for, it really doesn’t become a problem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most games are already compliant with what we’re asking for. And ironically, a lot of online multiplayer games from the late 90s, early 2000s are still playable today, even if the companies don’t exist anymore, because they planned ahead for that. This is not some undiscovered formula for how to do this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gamers get a bad rap for being reactive and angry and complaining all the time. Sometimes it’s deserved. They can be annoying. And sometimes all that complaining can be channeled into something actually productive, like changing the games industry. In the meantime, there are some smaller efforts underway to make it more clear to customers whether the game they’re buying could eventually go away, like The Crew did. Here’s Nicole again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re playing a game that has a single player component, usually if the multiplayer component goes away, you can still access the single player. The Crew didn’t have that at all. So for people who purchased this game after it was released in 2014, there’s no more access there. This comes down to a problem with the idea of licensing versus ownership. So when you are buying a game with an online component, you are licensing the game and you are not outright purchasing it. So you are paying the company for access and they can take that away at any time. And so there has been a movement to change some laws, specifically in California, when you’re buying a game there has to be some kind of like a label that’s like you don’t own this you’re licensing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of January this year, California law requires digital stores, like game platforms such as Steam, to disclose what the buyer is really getting when they pay for something. They can’t prompt you to buy or purchase a game if you’re only getting a license that can be yanked back at any time. Do you think a, like, “you don’t own this” kind of label on a game is satisfying to players?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, absolutely not. Like it’s not satisfying to players at all. Like, people want it to be like it used to be like, when you buy something, you own it. It’s a problem with ebooks. It’s a problem with music. It’s problem with the games collectively, like in your Steam library. I wrote a story about, you know, where do your Steam games go when you die because of these licensing issues. That you’d like legally can’t pass those games down to anyone, you know, they’re just like stuck in your account because they’re yours, not theirs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there any way for companies to let games die gracefully? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think there is. I don’t know, however, if big corporations are willing to do the things necessary to allow this to happen. Some players are hoping that studios and developers could go open source and so like, hand over some of the file’s code arts to the player base because if they’re not going to invest into it anymore, you know, they’re necessarily like, losing out on money by going open source, um, and so handing it over to like, a dedicated fan base could be a way to keep those servers running at like no additional cost to the developer. And that is a possibility. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if fans are crafty enough, they might be able to figure out how to keep playing their favorite games, even if publishers aren’t cooperating. And that’s what happened with The Crew. Players have recently reverse engineered the digital key that unlocks the game. As of September this year, the game is back. It’s not exactly the same, but this fan effort managed to breathe new life into a game that was previously dead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the exception to the rule, and I’m thankful it has happened. What’s really going on with most of these games is a whole lot of the content is on the customer system or their disk or, you know, like the textures, models, sounds, and everything. And usually the part that’s held by the company is code for kind of managing how that all connects and it’s runs. So it’s kind of like having a locked car in your garage and you can’t get open, but they have the keys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what will happen sometimes is you have these, honestly, geniuses reverse engineering how that game worked and trying to take their best guess at figuring it out. This almost always takes years of work with people who really know what they’re doing, they’re experts in the field. I’ve compared it to like reconstructing a photograph from the ashes that has been burned. But sometimes with enough time and effort, they can do it. In fact, in one video, I compared it to trying to crack the code the Germans were doing at World War II in terms of complexity, only to have people comment saying, no, it’s more complicated than that. A group that’s been working on it a little under two years managed to do that for The Crew, and now it is back. If you bought the original for PC, you can run it again now, offline and online. It’s the sort of thing where it took them a little over two years, and that’s honestly a best-case scenario. If they had access to the relevant code, they probably could have done it in a day or two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s incredible that they were able to reverse engineer this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, I think it’s gonna be an even better experience than when it was being supported because now it also allows for lots of modifications to it. And there were things I wanted like adjusting the field of view or brighter headlights in the game. Whereas if you were to do that when it’s being supported, that would be detected as a hack because it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there still more work left to be done in keeping games alive? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I never really wanted to be doing any of this. I’m just trying to do as much as I can to try to stop this practice and then just kind of be done with it. I guess I am glad that it seems like we’re not in the minority that people don’t like seeing things they’ve bought destroyed. It can feel like a Twilight Zone episode sometimes where you have to convince people that no, maybe this isn’t a good practice to just destroy things that you pay for when we can prevent it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some rare cases, there is life after death, game death, at least. But for the majority of online games that shut down without an end of life plan, the best we can do is mourn them. Sometimes that looks like fondly watching old gameplay footage on YouTube. Or it might look like slaying a funeral fit and sharing screenshots with other players on Reddit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, it’s a memorial segment at the end of your favorite podcast. Let’s take a moment to remember a few of the games that didn’t survive and the games that are on their way out: The Sims Mobile, Anthem, Battleborn, Concord, Babylon’s Fall, Dear Hunter Classic, House of Newerth, Overwatch 1, MapleStory 2, Skyforge, and the one and only Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Francesca Fenzi and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our senior editor and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Springer is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more. It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too, or even your enemies or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When Ubisoft, publisher of the sprawling open-world racing game The Crew shut down the game’s servers, cutting off access to even its single-player mode, fans were outraged. The moment tapped into their decades of frustration with the gaming industry’s push toward online-only content — and what some now call the growing epidemic of “game death.” In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by Ross Scott, a filmmaker and YouTube creator who launched the “Stop Killing Games” campaign. They’ll cover the push for new regulations requiring publishers to plan for the end of their games’ lifespans. Then, Morgan talks with gaming journalist Nicole Carpenter about the passionate community that formed around the mobile game Kim Kardashian: Hollywood, and how gamers grieve the loss of their favorite virtual worlds.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Ubisoft, publisher of the sprawling open-world racing game \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Crew\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> shut down the game’s servers, cutting off access to even its single-player mode, fans were outraged. The moment tapped into their decades of frustration with the gaming industry’s push toward online-only content — and what some now call the growing epidemic of “game death.” In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by Ross Scott, a filmmaker and YouTube creator who launched the “Stop Killing Games” campaign. They’ll cover the push for new regulations requiring publishers to plan for the end of their games’ lifespans. Then, Morgan talks with gaming journalist Nicole Carpenter about the passionate community that formed around the mobile game \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kim Kardashian: Hollywood\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and how gamers grieve the loss of their favorite virtual worlds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8671440434\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@Accursed_Farms\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross Scott\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, filmmaker, creator, and founder of the Stop Killing Games movement\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/sweetpotatoes?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nicole Carpenter\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, freelance reporter\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/anthem-server-shutdown-trying-for-the-first-time-bioware-ea/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With Anthem’s Impending Server Shutdown, I’m Trying It For The First Time\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aftermath\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.polygon.com/24152760/kim-kardashian-hollywood-glu-mobile-game-legacy/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kim Kardashian: Hollywood has an unlikely, lasting place in gaming history\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polygon\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcmag.com/news/stop-killing-games-campaign-closes-in-on-getting-eu-regulators-to-intervene\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Stop Killing Games’ Campaign Closes in on Getting EU Regulators to Intervene\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jon Martindale, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">PC Mag\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/stop-killing-games-demands-for-game-ownership-must-also-include-workers-rights-262774\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Stop Killing Games’: Demands for game ownership must also include workers’ rights\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Louis-Etienne Dubois and Miikka J. Lehtonen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Conversation\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/w70Xc9CStoE?si=-lmbSPUoeyXVYxa1\">The largest campaign ever to stop publishers destroying games\u003c/a> — Ross Scott, \u003ci>Accursed Farms (YouTube) \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/strong> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2014, Ubisoft launched a racing game called The Crew. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Driving sounds from The Crew video game]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All units, there’s a dangerous driver in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The crew has a real fast and furious vibe to it. You play as a guy who’s been framed for the murder of his brother, who takes a deal with the FBI to infiltrate and take down a corrupt criminal organization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Driving sounds from The Crew video game]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All units, rollover in place. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to work your way to the top, you have to drive a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving games, they’re less common as they used to be. So the ones that are good or semi-decent tend to have a lingering fan base now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Ross Scott, a filmmaker who runs the YouTube channel Accursed Farms. He’s also a gamer and was a huge fan of The Crew. The game had an intriguing story, cool missions to complete, and all of these ways to customize your car to make it feel like it’s really yours. But what Ross loved most about the game was the driving. The Crew was an open world game and he spent hours exploring. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it still is the second largest driving game ever made and it contains kind of a miniaturized version of the continental United States where you can literally drive for hours in it and see the different landscapes like the Rockies in the west or swamps in the south. They kind of had miniaturized versions of different cities in there too. So you have San Francisco, LA, New York, Miami. Like, you can go by the Pentagon and you can go by Mount Rushmore. It’s exactly the sort of game you would hope to see from a big company with lots of resources to throw at something. It is just so huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, there is this one aspect of the game that always bugged Ross. You needed an internet connection to play, which meant that The Crew would only remain playable as long as Ubisoft kept its servers running, even in single player mode. That meant that if the company ever decided to pull the plug, the game would be dead. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literally no one can ever play it again. It’s just not even possible no matter how much you do want to play it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s exactly what happened to The Crew. In the spring of 2024, about a decade after launching the game, Ubisoft shut down the crew’s servers. The company said that the shutdown was due to, “upcoming server infrastructure and licensing constraints.” Most of the time, when a product is discontinued, it’s removed from the shelves. But if you already owned that product, you can generally keep using it. But in this case, Ubisoft made it impossible to play The Crew at all. The company even revoked digital licenses for the game, preventing players from setting up private servers, which would have allowed them to continue playing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a seasoned gamer, Ross knew that The Crew was fragile and susceptible to game death, but it didn’t make the shutdown any less infuriating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The closest real world analogy I can think of would be printers. Say you buy a printer for your computer, but then after two years it just stops. And then you find out, oh, that’s because it was connecting to the server. Well, it still has ink. It can still run, I mean, physically run, but it just won’t print anything because it was depending on that signal from the company. And they just decided to cut it and you can’t use your printer now. That’s essentially what’s happening with these games. And they can say, well, we designed it that way. It’s like, yeah, but you didn’t have to, and it’s still very capable of printing things without you doing this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As someone who started gaming decades ago, Ross has experienced game death over and over again. The Crew was his last straw and spurred him to start the Stop Killing Games movement, which has sparked global debate about the issue.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re exploring what happens when games die, how the industry got here, why gamers are up in arms about it, and whether there’s any right way to let a game die gracefully. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. How do games die? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get to the bottom of this, we’re calling up an industry expert, Nicole Carpenter. She’s a journalist who’s been covering the games industry for years. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to start off, like, what goes into the decision to take a game offline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, let me take a step back. Because when we’re talking about games that are being taken offline, we’re taking about games that are multiplayer, usually, and online games, so games with an online component. Like, a game that you purchased for the Nintendo 64 back in the day, that game’s always gonna be there. But for a game with an on-line component, it relies on servers that the company controls, and they can take those servers down at any time they want. And usually, it’s related to money. When a game has a player base that is really small or a game that isn’t generating enough money to make it worth it for the corporation that is running this game, that’s often when you will see a game go offline. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, let’s look at one specific game as a case study and it’s one that I really loved like, when it first launched: Kim Kardashian Hollywood. Kim Kardashian Hollywood was a free-to-play mobile game set in a cartoon version of Los Angeles. Once you level up enough and pay real-world money for in-game perks, you could take your private jet around the world, photoshoots in Paris, vacationing in Bora Bora, Fashion Week in New York. You get the idea. It was an animated slice of the real Kim Kardashian’s life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This game was about rising through the Hollywood rankings. You’re trying to get to the A list, but you’re like really far down in the alphabet. You meet Kim Kardashian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood] I need something cute but super quick. Can you help me find something? I could really use your help. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she helps you like rise through the influencer, social media celebrity ranking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood]: This is super cute. Thank you so much for your help.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game was based around a storyline that follows you throughout that journey, but it was also largely about fashion, collecting fashion items, and building up this amazing library of clothes… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood]: You look stunning. Welcome to the A-List!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…doing it you know with Kim Kardashian as your best friend. It was interesting because it was tapping into culture. You could go on dates, photoshoots. You can visit your friends, and it got frequent updates and it referenced things that were happening in the world, both in Kim Kardashian’s life, but also just kind of like cultural moments as as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember they responded like in real time to real-world fashion trends like when off-the-shoulder tops were in they had off- the-shoulders tops in Kim Kardashian Hollywood. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. A thing that was also really interesting about this game is that it was funny. It kind of saw how ridiculous, absurd this idea is. You know, you’re Kim Kardashian’s best friend. It’s very self-aware in its humor. And that was another draw for people, is that it was really earnest, but it was also self- aware. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it was like, playing on this kind of parasocial relationship with like, Kim Kardashian, the real person, and then also Kim Kardashian your in-game friend. Yeah. What was the emotional investment here? Like, why were people so into this game beyond the fashion and the glam of Kim Kardashian? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a game that updates so frequently, it becomes like a ritualized experience and you are coming into this day knowing that like, there are going to be things for you to do and to check off on this game. And so it really becomes embedded in a person’s life in a way, because you expect there’s something new to do in that game. And I think that is part of what made this game such a big part of people’s lives is because it became that sort of daily habit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 1] When I tell you I am a A plus plus plus member in the top 100 of the game world, number 11, if we want to be exact, 595.7 million fans. Baby, I take this game very seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also the community around it. Kim Kardashian: Hollywood is not a multiplayer game, but online, a community built around it, people who are sharing the creations that they made, sharing their fashion, talking about the storylines, talking about the characters, and you’re able to build a community from something like, that isn’t multiplayer game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Players were, you know, getting emotionally attached to the game, but they also, to get all these outfits, to get these fun little accessories, they had to spend real money. Can you talk about the kind of like monetary investment people were making into this game? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were spending a lot of money. People were spending thousands of dollars on this sort of thing. And the fashion was compelling enough that it was worth it for a lot of people and they spent so much. This game generated hundreds of millions of dollars. I believe the total was around $600 million over the course of its lifetime, maybe more. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite making so much money, in 2024, the studio decided to shut down Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. Nicole said it was a combination of diminishing returns, a complicated licensing agreement with Kim Kardashian herself, and a larger move away from mobile gaming by the parent Studio EA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it was announced that this game was going offline, the community was so, so sad. One of the things that popped up almost instantly was people creating funeral outfits. People were creating like the most fabulous, amazing, all-black, just like, funeral garb to wear to the Kim Kardashian: Hollywood funeral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 2] Kim Kardashian, are you okay with this? What is going on? Please do not take this game. What am I supposed to do? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 3] Because I worked hard to get to level 26 and it’s being ripped away from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 4] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I tell you I have invested so much time and money, it’s ridiculous. I have purchased so many outfits, jewelry, makeup, blemish, all of that. Kim, I need my money back or you can send me my outfits in the mail, whichever one you prefer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The community was devastated. They were so devastated that some people immediately started spinning up like, so where are we going next? What game are we moving on to? Some fans are even working on creating a new game to replace Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. I mean, let’s talk about the industry factors here in taking a game offline. Who’s making this decision to pull the plug? I would say it’s a mixture of the publishers and developers that are making these decisions and that for the majority of games, it is largely coming down to: is this making enough money to make the cost of the servers worth it? And a lot of the times they have been running these servers for years, like decades, and the player base has diminished. In other cases, these games have been running for weeks and the players have diminished and they pull the plug.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like now a lot of games are taken offline before they even have a chance to like build a fanbase. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah. There’s one game that came out recently, it’s called Concord, and it just didn’t hit with people. It was released and it never had that surge of players and just immediately started declining. It was turned off weeks into its release. I’m not sure why you would shut a game down after just weeks, you know, it it’s kind of ridiculous because there isn’t even a chance for the developers to improve a game, to make patches, to keep updating a game. Because there are instances where a game is released, it is released poorly, and then it can gain an audience back. And for a game like Concord, it shut down just weeks after. There isn’t even that chance. Games take a really long time to make, and there’s a lot of money that goes into that as well and for that to get thrown away so quickly without giving it a chance is like, pretty sad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Nicole explained, there are a lot of industry factors that affect whether or not a game stays online. And now the odds are stacked against any new game that has to compete in this market. Is game death inevitable? Is there any way to future-proof our favorite online games? We’ll try to answer those questions after the break. Okay, we’re back. So, is game death inevitable? Well, the tides may finally be turning against the practice of pulling the plug on games. Time for a new tab. What is Stop Killing Games? For the most part, the issue of game death boils down to something called digital rights management, or DRM. We don’t technically own digital downloads, and even if you paid for it, your access to this content can be revoked at the whims of publishers. This goes for e-books, digital movies, TV shows, and, of course, games. And this DRM issue really bothers Ross, the YouTuber we heard from earlier. He says it wasn’t always like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the transition where things really started shifting, in my opinion, I think was around 2004, 2005. That’s when you could buy games as a one-time purchase, but then you would still have to connect to the publisher in order for it to run. You don’t own the contents of what’s on the disk, you just own the piece of plastic. I’d say around the mid-2000s is when you started seeing a shift that, no, even if you bought that game, even if it was a physical copy at some point in the future, it became impossible to play it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross was upset when The Crew shut down, but he wasn’t surprised. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Me liking the game was actually just a coincidence. I would have done this for any game because this issue has bothered me for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He has been sounding the alarm since 2019, when he went viral with a video essay about game ownership.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ross Scott in Youtube Speech]: Now I’ll warn you, this video is gonna be long and could get boring in spots, but it’s necessary. See, this is my declaration of war on games as a service.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Games as a service, or live service games, are typically online only, include microtransactions or subscription fees, and are continuously updated with new features. But what it really boils down to is the fact that players don’t control their access to the game. They depend on the company to keep it afloat. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross posted that video six years ago, and he was already fed up back then. By the time Ubisoft killed The Crew, after years of watching beloved games bite the dust. He was ready to fight back. In April of last year, right after The Crew went down for good, Ross launched a campaign he called Stop Killing Games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games has been me just trying to work backwards from my conclusion, which is, I want to try and stop games being effectively killed this way. This was not hardly the first game that this sort of thing had happened to, but…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier this year, Ross and a handful of Stop Killing Games volunteers conducted an informal report on the playability of 731 online-only games. Of those 731 games, nearly 70% were either dead or at risk of game death because publishers had no public plans for preserving them. The Crew is just one of many in a long line of dead and potentially doomed games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realized if we don’t act on this game, yeah, there’s gonna be others, but this is about as good as it gets to try and test this because it was a relatively large game. It had, I think, a maximum of 12 million owners. It was also kind of black and white what happened where no one could run it again. Just the whole thing was gone. And the publisher was located in France, which has many more consumer protection laws than many other countries. So it would kind of maximize our chances that something could be done about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He posted his campaign manifesto on YouTube. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ross Scott in Youtube Speech] Honestly, everything about what I’ve been doing has been an amateur effort. I don’t even want to be doing this. But if you care about this issue, I’m what you’re stuck with, because nobody else has stepped up. And I guess there is one thing that makes me a good candidate for this, and that, at least with me, you’re getting maximum hustle. I have decades worth of resentment on this issue. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games started as a website, guiding gamers on how to petition their local governments and hold game companies to a higher standard. Then it became a movement. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realized that we could try to submit this to consumer protection agencies in various countries because it had so many players. We could still get, we did end up getting several thousand complaints sent. That meant a lot of people still had proof of purchase of it. I kind of saw this as my only chance, momentum-wise, to do anything about this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games organized government petitions and consumer agency complaints in Canada, the UK, Australia, and throughout Europe. They’ve had mixed results introducing legislation, but they might have some actual movement in the EU. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big one ended up being a European citizens initiative where if enough people signed it, then that could be brought before the EU commission to create new law on it. I called it the moonshot. I wasn’t sure if it was realistic or not. And we ended up passing the signature threshold and now it’s kind of going through the government procedures. And I’m somewhat optimistic because if this practice of you know selling someone a game, then disabling it at an undisclosed date later, but keeping the money, if that was all completely legal, it’s been over a year since we submitted that. I would think they’d be able to give an answer by now saying, sorry, but this is lawful and you don’t have any case on this. I think what’s happening is this is a giant gray area in the law and they’re trying to unravel it all. If you have no idea how long a game you’re buying is going to last, I think that’s pretty relevant information. Because the span of online-only games, the shortest we’re aware of was a game called The Culling 2. It lasted eight days before shutting down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the longest that was made as a one-time purchase, so, you know, not a subscription, is Guild Wars, which is still going. So if you bought the disk in 2005 and never got around to playing it, you can still play it now, even though it’s online only. So that’s no standard at all for what consumer expectations are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How did other people respond to you saying like, hey, we should do something about this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the majority of people thought, yeah, that’s a good idea because it’s kind of common sense that if you buy something, you should be able to keep it. This was never really codified in the laws, whether this was legal. It’s just that it had never been tested. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like the most potential for real legislation here is in the EU. Do you think that could work in the US? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have talked to some US lawyers on it, they all agree that the only way to fix this is through an act of Congress. So I’m pretty pessimistic about being able to influence anything along those lines. That said, I think most of the world will get the benefits downstream if we win in a big enough country. Like, there’s actually a real world example of this sort of thing. In 2014, Australia’s consumer protection agency sued Valve for not allowing refunds of games people bought on Steam. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Valve started as a game developer and now owns Steam, the biggest digital platform for PC games. It’s where the majority of PC games are bought and sold, all digitally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Valve lost that case so afterwards, rather than just allowing Australians to refund their games, they just made that global policy because I think they just didn’t want to deal with this in more countries and have more legal fees. And now that’s kind of common practice that you can refund a game if you only played a five minutes or something like that. The cost of basically not destroying a game and having some sort of end of life plan for it once the company’s done does not have to be that much if it’s planned for from the beginning. It’s just one step out of hundreds of making a game. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think what would happen is if they realize that there’s gonna be fines or some penalty for not having that, if they wanna sell in the EU, which has something like 450 million people. It’s a sizable market. We’ll decide, okay, when we shut down the game, we’ll release an end of life patch so people can keep playing it, but we don’t have to support anything. They may as well roll it out globally afterwards. So just because they’ll have already done the work on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It doesn’t always have to be this way. Since Ross and the Stop Killing Games volunteers put together that playability report, they found that over 250 games survived after publishers took them offline. Let’s talk about these possible solutions in a new tab. Is there life after game death? That playability report from Ross and the Stop Killing Games volunteers, they found that over 230 games survived because of fan preservation projects. Another 30 are still playable thanks to their developers making end-of-life plans. What does that really mean? What does end- of-life care for a game look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our initiative is structured this way in that we’re actually trying to leave maximum flexibility to publishers and developers and how they solve it. Every game is different. If there’s just one thing to do, it’s have an end-of-life plan for when you have to end support to the game so that it’s not impossible to play it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, the most common way to do that might be to just, if it’s a single-player one, have an offline mode. If it’s smaller scale game, maybe allow like, private servers that people can host. If it was a big complex one, like an MMO, then maybe having something where they release like a version of the server software that customers can maybe run separately. But we’re not mandating any one solution, but just realize that you won’t be able to support your game forever. That’s kind of inevitable. And as long as that’s planned for, it really doesn’t become a problem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most games are already compliant with what we’re asking for. And ironically, a lot of online multiplayer games from the late 90s, early 2000s are still playable today, even if the companies don’t exist anymore, because they planned ahead for that. This is not some undiscovered formula for how to do this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gamers get a bad rap for being reactive and angry and complaining all the time. Sometimes it’s deserved. They can be annoying. And sometimes all that complaining can be channeled into something actually productive, like changing the games industry. In the meantime, there are some smaller efforts underway to make it more clear to customers whether the game they’re buying could eventually go away, like The Crew did. Here’s Nicole again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re playing a game that has a single player component, usually if the multiplayer component goes away, you can still access the single player. The Crew didn’t have that at all. So for people who purchased this game after it was released in 2014, there’s no more access there. This comes down to a problem with the idea of licensing versus ownership. So when you are buying a game with an online component, you are licensing the game and you are not outright purchasing it. So you are paying the company for access and they can take that away at any time. And so there has been a movement to change some laws, specifically in California, when you’re buying a game there has to be some kind of like a label that’s like you don’t own this you’re licensing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of January this year, California law requires digital stores, like game platforms such as Steam, to disclose what the buyer is really getting when they pay for something. They can’t prompt you to buy or purchase a game if you’re only getting a license that can be yanked back at any time. Do you think a, like, “you don’t own this” kind of label on a game is satisfying to players?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, absolutely not. Like it’s not satisfying to players at all. Like, people want it to be like it used to be like, when you buy something, you own it. It’s a problem with ebooks. It’s a problem with music. It’s problem with the games collectively, like in your Steam library. I wrote a story about, you know, where do your Steam games go when you die because of these licensing issues. That you’d like legally can’t pass those games down to anyone, you know, they’re just like stuck in your account because they’re yours, not theirs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there any way for companies to let games die gracefully? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think there is. I don’t know, however, if big corporations are willing to do the things necessary to allow this to happen. Some players are hoping that studios and developers could go open source and so like, hand over some of the file’s code arts to the player base because if they’re not going to invest into it anymore, you know, they’re necessarily like, losing out on money by going open source, um, and so handing it over to like, a dedicated fan base could be a way to keep those servers running at like no additional cost to the developer. And that is a possibility. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if fans are crafty enough, they might be able to figure out how to keep playing their favorite games, even if publishers aren’t cooperating. And that’s what happened with The Crew. Players have recently reverse engineered the digital key that unlocks the game. As of September this year, the game is back. It’s not exactly the same, but this fan effort managed to breathe new life into a game that was previously dead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the exception to the rule, and I’m thankful it has happened. What’s really going on with most of these games is a whole lot of the content is on the customer system or their disk or, you know, like the textures, models, sounds, and everything. And usually the part that’s held by the company is code for kind of managing how that all connects and it’s runs. So it’s kind of like having a locked car in your garage and you can’t get open, but they have the keys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what will happen sometimes is you have these, honestly, geniuses reverse engineering how that game worked and trying to take their best guess at figuring it out. This almost always takes years of work with people who really know what they’re doing, they’re experts in the field. I’ve compared it to like reconstructing a photograph from the ashes that has been burned. But sometimes with enough time and effort, they can do it. In fact, in one video, I compared it to trying to crack the code the Germans were doing at World War II in terms of complexity, only to have people comment saying, no, it’s more complicated than that. A group that’s been working on it a little under two years managed to do that for The Crew, and now it is back. If you bought the original for PC, you can run it again now, offline and online. It’s the sort of thing where it took them a little over two years, and that’s honestly a best-case scenario. If they had access to the relevant code, they probably could have done it in a day or two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s incredible that they were able to reverse engineer this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, I think it’s gonna be an even better experience than when it was being supported because now it also allows for lots of modifications to it. And there were things I wanted like adjusting the field of view or brighter headlights in the game. Whereas if you were to do that when it’s being supported, that would be detected as a hack because it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there still more work left to be done in keeping games alive? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I never really wanted to be doing any of this. I’m just trying to do as much as I can to try to stop this practice and then just kind of be done with it. I guess I am glad that it seems like we’re not in the minority that people don’t like seeing things they’ve bought destroyed. It can feel like a Twilight Zone episode sometimes where you have to convince people that no, maybe this isn’t a good practice to just destroy things that you pay for when we can prevent it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some rare cases, there is life after death, game death, at least. But for the majority of online games that shut down without an end of life plan, the best we can do is mourn them. Sometimes that looks like fondly watching old gameplay footage on YouTube. Or it might look like slaying a funeral fit and sharing screenshots with other players on Reddit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, it’s a memorial segment at the end of your favorite podcast. Let’s take a moment to remember a few of the games that didn’t survive and the games that are on their way out: The Sims Mobile, Anthem, Battleborn, Concord, Babylon’s Fall, Dear Hunter Classic, House of Newerth, Overwatch 1, MapleStory 2, Skyforge, and the one and only Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Francesca Fenzi and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our senior editor and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Springer is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more. It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too, or even your enemies or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When wildfire engulfed much of Los Angeles earlier this year, artist and game designer Alice Bucknell found themselves stuck inside, replaying “Firewatch,” a quiet game about exploring the wilderness in anticipation of an impending wildfire. It helped them process emotions that felt too overwhelming in real life. “Firewatch,” and other games like it that focus on exploration rather than fighting or competing, are known as walking simulators. Throughout their career, Alice has used this approach to craft exploratory games that invite players to stretch their imagination and emotional capacity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Morgan talks with Alice about how walking simulators and other virtual worlds can reframe our understanding of failure, climate grief, and our connection to one another. From simulating life as a moth to wandering through abandoned metaverses like Second Life, they explore how digital spaces can become sites of mourning, reflection, and hope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7727580366\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://alicebucknell.com/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAadPwBfOdoEUHmveOWOdXMqeOP3Ddvc7aVzOWBCFOIpE-3ogrm1q-u-_rZRrMg_aem_3c6B9f5aAuVP86uTOvuZwA\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice Bucknell\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, artist, writer, and game designer\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hcn.org/issues/57-3/the-video-game-that-makes-the-climate-apocalypse-look-good/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video game that makes the climate apocalypse look good\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Erin X. Wong, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">High Country News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.documentjournal.com/2024/05/second-life-virtual-world-gamer-furry-identity-world/\">Second Life’s loyal users embrace its decaying software and no-fun imperfections\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Alice Bucknell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Document Journal\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.upress.umn.edu/9781517900250/playing-with-feelings/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Playing with Feelings: Video Games and Affect\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Aubrey Anable, University of Minnesota Press\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of this year, wildfires ravaged Los Angeles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember like when the fires broke out, like it was a. At least one of them. Um, the end of the fire was like two miles from my place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice Bucknell is an artist, writer, and educator who specializes in video games. Like many LA residents, Alice jumped in to volunteer with mutual aid and cleanup efforts. But before it was safe to leave their home, they were stuck inside … waiting and watching the city burn. So while waiting, they turned to a game they’ve played over and over again: Firewatch. It’s set in the Wyoming wilderness, and, as you might have guessed, deals with wildfires.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even just the kind of color palettes of the game, like felt sickeningly familiar, um, after and during the whole process of the wildfires, like waking up in the daytime and going outside and the sky being like orange, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the game, you play as a park ranger on fire lookout duty. A lot of the game revolves around exploring the wilderness, which is under threat of being wiped out by wildfire. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While the real fire kept them inside, Alice wandered around this game world, racing time to explore before the fire could take it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> for them, it was a meditative experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I cried a lot playing that game, especially the most recent play through. Um, but the game is so beautiful as well because like what games can do is they can toggle across scales in a way that I don’t think any other medium really can. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Firewatch is what’s known as a “walking simulator.” Walking sims are games that revolve around exploring instead of competing or fighting. There’s a lot of focus on character development and maybe the occasional puzzle, instead of flashy combat. In a lot of walking sims, you, the player, have to interact with the world around you to drive the plot forward, like collecting pieces of a scattered puzzle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Walking sims are pretty controversial. They started getting popular around 2016, after Firewatch came out, and for the last decade, more traditional gamers have decried the genre as tedious and lacking actual gameplay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term walking simulator was used as an insult initially. You know, the, the kind of conventional way we think of video games has largely trended towards, um, high grossing games like war simulators or first person shooters, like these are historically the games that have made the most profit. Walking Sims are really different. Like there’s very little that can be done better, faster, harder than anyone else. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like the game rewards a certain slowing down and paying very close attention to the world around you. Because the nature of their mechanics are so simplistic and paired back, it actually allows them to get into really complex topics like grief or death or dying or mourning or ecological meltdown. Big complex topics can actually be paradoxically easily explored in, in my opinion, through the walking sim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the focus of a lot of Alice’s work: unpacking complicated, emotionally charged topics through game worlds. They don’t exclusively make walking sims, but their work usually involves building a world that’s meant to be explored. Like playing as a pack of wolves, roaming what’s left of urban LA after an ecological disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really interested in thinking about the game engine as this space for exploring and play testing the limits of human knowledge, [laughs] where different kinds of intelligence or different kinds of relationships can be experimented with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how does exploring these virtual spaces make overwhelming concepts, like climate apocalypse, more approachable? In this episode, we explore the art of exploring, what goes into building these game worlds, what they can offer to players that the real world can’t, and why we keep coming back to them. Alice is going to guide us through it and maybe even make the case for walking sims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know we start off. Let’s open a new tab, building a game world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice’s background is in anthropology and architecture, and they had always been interested in building virtual worlds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really came to it through an interest in storytelling and like specifically sci-fi and speculative fiction. I wanted to tell stories\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">around politics, society, culture, non-human intelligence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before they got into making games, Alice made animated short films. These films centered on dystopian climate disasters. In one, an arctic bird tells the story of humanity fleeing Earth, while flying over a frigid, flooded wasteland of submerged skyscrapers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Earthseed film]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bird: In 2090, humanity achieved its destiny. I watched from here as the spaceship took off, lighting up the night sky. They were on their way to colonize planet B.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instead of using animation software, Alice built this frozen landscape using a game engine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game engine is basically just, you know, a fancy way of saying the software that people use to build video games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of their films focused on the idea of agency in an uncertain future, whether the main characters were human or animals or plants. And Alice realized that viewer participation was a significant part of understanding these concepts. So they pivoted from using a game engine to create short films — to actually building games themselves. Letting the audience step into that world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Something really magical has to happen where the viewer has to become a player. You’re going from a passive audience to an active audience. Like they have to sort of work together. I mean, especially the games I, I make. They’re mostly two player games or multiplayer games. It felt like it, using the medium of gaming, which requires active participation, just felt like the way to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, exploring is usually so secondary in a lot of games. Um, but can you make the case for exploring these worlds, even if it’s not the focus of the game? Like what can this practice of exploration like offer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I love games that are kind of, yeah, like wandering games or open world games. Like I feel like as a kid, uh, these are always the games that I was most attracted to. Um, I think that they become a bit of like a mirror. Like they kind of maybe reflect back to us some of our own desires or ways of like, moving through the world, like offline or offscreen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think of these spaces as being really generative, like places to almost like, like rehearse or play test are reality as we know it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, how do you build a space that encourages exploration?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think by not telling people the rules,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think, yeah, having things be kind of freaky and open-ended. I do like creating conditions or, or environments where maybe the player thinks they know what’s going on, but then something will just come out of nowhere and like totally trip them up.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I like kind of messing with people’s expectations of like the power or like agency they have over the environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There’s something about like encouraging this kind of curiosity we don’t get to really use as adults, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, exactly. I think failing in games is really important and like a lot of people have written a lot of really cool books around that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People like Aubrey Anable have written really nicely about failure recently, thinking about games as a place not just for to experience individual failure, but to experience, like, systems collapsing. Like, what if failure isn’t naturally just this like individual shortcoming, but maybe failure could be extended to like an entire political or social system and maybe how we get to explore different kinds of failure in game worlds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice tackles systemic failure in their game, The Alluvials. It imagines a version of Los Angeles devastated by the climate apocalypse, once again inhabited by the critters native to Southern California. Even P-22 makes an appearance — he was the beloved mountain lion who settled in Griffith Park after somehow crossing two major freeways. P-22 became a symbol of human encroachment on the natural world. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice imagines Los Angeles’ future, without any human perspectives. In The Alluvials, all of the playable characters are non-human. But imagining the world from the perspective of a moth, or the wildfire itself, challenges players to confront difficult feelings of climate anxiety and grief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think when people play my games oftentimes they’re like, oh, this is so dystopian. Like, this is so melancholic. Like, this feels like you know, end of the world vibes. But I feel like for me, it’s also about trying to find moments of optimism or resilience or beauty or hope or pleasure. Yes, it’s a game about the politics of drought and water scarcity in LA it’s also trying to maybe get us out of this doom spiral of, like, thinking that like a big wildfire is like the apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, in fact, one of the levels you actually get to play as wildfire. And\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in that level I was really interested actually in maybe pushing back against this idea that fire is always necessarily a destructive force.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you look at forestry and like ecological studies, like there’s all this evidence proving that actually fire kind of has to happen every now and again because it clears the canopy. So it allows like new, uh, species to grow on the ground. It creates biodiversity. It creates resilience. It removes pests. So there’s all these really positive aspects of fire. And largely like California’s relationship to fire is largely a story of like private property ownership and people not wanting to practice controlled burning so then you end up getting the situation where there are these like mega fires because we haven’t practiced controlled burning. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, I mean, I think the game is trying to get people into a place maybe. Where some of the assumptions they make about the natural world, or how we fear or how we like certain natural events or entities, like maybe make us question why we feel that way. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, another one of the levels of the game of The Alluvials is what I call a pollination simulator. Um, and in this level, which is set in like a dried up near future version of the Hoover Dam, actually get to play either as a Joshua tree or a yucca moth. And these are two species in ecology studies, It’s called extreme symbiosis where basically what happens is these two species have evolved in such a way that they’ve become entirely codependent on each other, like, all of their other pollinators have died out. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I kind of think about the Joshua Tree and yucca moths as these sort of. lovers at the end of the world, you know, like, even if they exist in this incredibly precarious state, like there’s still something so beautiful about the ways that they sort of like support each other and keep each other alive, despite like all the odds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Navigating these virtual landscapes can help us explore deeper relationships. Not just the relationship between two creatures in a desert ecosystem, but complex, messy human relationships too. That’s after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back! And we’re opening a new tab, using game worlds to explore emotions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Through their game The Alluvials, Alice flipped the human relationship to the environment on its head and they did it playfully. Imagining these devastating outcomes through playful scenarios, like a yucca moth getting love drunk from pollinating Joshua trees, helps players find hope in an uncertain future. But what about when we go into games without the goal of play? These spaces can be powerful tools to experience and make peace with difficult emotions in our human relationships, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Video games can be a very productive place for processing grief or processing trauma. There’s a lot of game scholars, uh, people like Aubrey Anable or Bo Ruberg that talk about this notion of difficult gaming games that are kind of enabling us to experience other emotions, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">han just pleasure or happiness or the delight of sort of beating someone or, or beating a game,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice said that Firewatch, the game they played while waiting out the LA fires, is a perfect example of “difficult gaming.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I mean, Fire Watch for instance, it’s a game about anticipatory grief for the climate. Like, it’s a game where you’re playing as a park ranger and basically decided to leave your wife who has a terminal disease. Uh, but instead of being with her, you’ve decided to go take a job, uh, national forest. so you’re grieving and you’re heartbroken and you’re dealing with yeah, this guilt that you have for abandoning your partner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then simultaneously you’re dealing with the grief of an entire planet, like a planet scale, grief. And you’re dealing with a kind of feeling that something bad is gonna happen. Kind of the big fire, right, that’s definitely gonna happen at some point, but you don’t know exactly when. 90% of the game is just waiting, like, waiting for that disaster to happen. And I think that in a way, games can do this thing where, yeah, you’re able to sort of toggle between futures pasts and presents.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Games like Firewatch, you’re like waiting for something bad to happen and that thing is kind of always forever on the horizon. And I think that that was a feeling that everyone had in COVID as well, like knowing this thing was really rough, but not knowing the edges of it, like not knowing when it was going to end, the kind of anticipation of like, the world never being the same again, like, when we do get to go back outside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Games can kind of create that like, it’s almost like a primer or like a way to sort of experience the heaviness and the complexity of those feelings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What is it about exploring these virtual spaces that allow us to access feelings that we maybe won’t have more trouble processing in the real physical world?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think about maybe some, some kinds of virtual game space or virtual worlds, like the ones in Roblox or Second Life a sort of, um, non-place. Like, Marc Augé, this French anthropologist had talked about this idea of the non place, and he was kind of referring to it as places like train stations or fast food restaurants or airport terminals, like places that feel kind of dislocated from any physical, like, coordinates.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, he’s really talking about this feeling of like, in betweenness. And I think that, you know, for anyone who’s like, been at an airport and, like, struck up a conversation with a stranger, um, maybe like revealed something, look personal, ’cause it’s like, oh, I’m never gonna see this person again, like whatever. Uh, there’s kind like, I feel like sometimes you also get that in like virtual environments. Like I do feel like these virtual worlds open up i’s a bit like a, a role play where you feel like you can kind of be whoever you wanna be, or maybe you, you can, you can try out like a different personality or like a different kind of intimacy maybe than what you’re used to practicing in your quote unquote, like real life. We already kind of know that, that feeling of, like, an airport bar and like maybe how that would also open you up in a way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice plays with the concept of non-human entities in their game, Nightcrawlers. They describe it as a pollination simulator. It’s a two-player where one person plays as a flower, and the other plays as a bat. Players have to use echolocation and non-verbal communication to find each other, and when they do, play notes in sync to pollinate. It’s meant to challenge players to deepen their relationships with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, a game, you know, where you’re playing as a bat and you have to like, use sonar to find flower or if you’re playing as flower and you have to sort of dig under the ground and like fling yourself, like a slingshot across your own root system so you can pop up somewhere else in the world. These are very kind of like psychedelic experiences. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s asking you to kind of take on a form of intelligence that’s just so different from like how you move about the world in your day-to-day life, like, all the behaviors that you just do automatically walking around planet earth. I love the feeling of like playing a, a new game for the first time, uh, where you basically respond into the world and you’re kind of like a baby. Like you just don’t know anything. Like you’re waiting for the lore to load in. You’re waiting for like, you know, someone to tell you the reason that you’re there, someone to tell you how to move around, someone to tell you like what you should be desiring or what you should be working towards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s Alice’s game Small Void, a queer dating sim where players work together as matter and antimatter, two halves of the same object. The mechanics of the game are inspired by black hole paradoxes. Alice worked on it during their residency at the European Center for Nuclear Research. The two players have to catch each other, but when they do, they risk opening a black hole and starting the chase from scratch. In a way, it’s also a love story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Anything is possible and like, um, having to kind of relearn your relationship to the world from scratch. It can be frustrating ’cause sometimes you’re just like, tell me what to do, I don’t know what’s going on, like, help. But it can also be ,like, really joyful and like really, I would say like a bit child, like childlike feeling of this, like, sense of wonder of possibility. And I think it’s even more fun when you’re playing the game with someone because you can both like be tripping up and messing up and being confused and disoriented and, um, playing hide and seek together, you know, inside of a black hole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once the feeling of failure is removed, then it kind of opens us up to like all of these different, uh, possible ways of playing together. and what’s really cool for me as well is thinking about how that openness can be carried into real life, like when you put the controller down. Maybe that makes us a little less rigid in like our day-to-day routines and interactions too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Game worlds provide the space for processing, exploring, and relationship building that we can’t always find in the real world. We see this a lot in the sims. Like, how so many sims players — myself included — explored queerness through in-game relationships before they were ready for real-world ones. Or like during the LA wildfires, when Alice confronted their anxiety and grief by replaying Firewatch when they couldn’t go outside. For many, game worlds are a space for community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of my favorite examples of that, um was in the pandemic. A lot of people would be meeting up on multiplayer online games, games that nowadays have, like, incredibly sophisticated and beautiful landscapes. Of course, the point of mogs is not to admire the landscape, it’s to kind of engage with other players and maybe collaborate or fight each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in the pandemic, when we were all so nature starved and locked at home, uh, people were really gravitating towards multiplayer online games, not just as a point of social communication but actually as a place to even like, appreciate simulated nature together. So it was not uncommon for people to basically go onto Halo or other games and like basically just use the sort of structure of the game engine itself as a bit of like a national park or a nature watch and like meet up with their friends and go on these long walks together into the sunset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, just like spaces in the real world, sometimes a once-bustling locale can fizzle out. Its popularity dwindles and it starts feeling.. abandoned. What happens to these virtual worlds when players stop visiting? What’s the appeal of these multiplayer spaces, if the community has moved on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab, Is Second Life a dead game?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Second Life launched in 2003 as an expansive online world where you could be anyone, and do anything. It was the metaverse before all the tech nerds were obsessed with the metaverse. To this day, you can meet other players, fall in love, get married, buy property, get a job, adopt another player, be adopted by other players, pick up a new hobby … all of course, in game, and through a series of micro-transactions that require real money. You can literally live a second life online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world is huge but now, it’s empty. Second Life’s active user base peaked in 2010. But there are still players who are committed to showing up. Alice spent three weeks in the game last year while writing an anthropological report of Second Life for Document Journal. What they found was a digitally crumbling, desolate world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was playing around in Second Life. I think I felt like quite frustrated and I also felt quite alone. Um, because it is like, you get the feeling that it’s just this like gigantic,constellation of thousands of different worlds that are all custom made by someone real. These nightclubs or islands or places you can go and like maybe meet, meet people and talk to, talk to people, but then you, you, you portal into these worlds and there’s just no one there. It’s quite like, I would say almost like melancholic, um, I would say like the feeling of, of being inside of this world that once had such a kind of following I guess, and such a kind of, uh, busy crowd. Um, and now it’s sort of been abandoned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe it’s not so far from like the non place I was talking about earlier or the, the feeling of being in transit, um, because it feels a bit like you’re in this world that has been like forsaken. Like, it feels a bit like a archeological exercise. Like you’re trying to sort of like, uncover the kind of history of this place and try to find little clues in the landscape.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I think about online games, I assume that most people keep going back to them for the relationships they have with other players. But in games like Second Life, there’s like no one there. And you wrote about running into like one solitary person in this pretty much abandoned, like wasteland of a game. Why do you think people keep coming back to these virtual world if, even if there’s no one else there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, it’s by and large a wasteland. Yes, it’s like been forsaken, left for dead. Um, but I also think that because the odds of finding someone also exploring this world are so low, um, there is this feeling of like, magic when it does happen, that you do meet someone. And also, like, for some of these users, they really like the idea that they’re able to kind of hang out in this, like, otherwise, like, abandoned space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think when a lot of people talk about the reason they love games is usually like the storyline, or like the relationships they build with other players, the characters. But do you have any thoughts on, like, the relationships we build to the game worlds themselves and like these virtual spaces?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people get really attached. I think that’s not something that studios think about a lot either. I guess like, uh, it was one of the expansions of World of Warcraft, in which, um, they scrubbed like a lot of the, uh, areas of the world. Like, they just, they just cut ’em out basically to create more space, I guess, for better, like more optimized level design. Um, and there was this like Reddit forum where everyone was like, mourning. I mean, this is before the upgrade even happened, um, so this is before the levels had, had been erased for good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, but people were like, already, sort of, like, mourning and complaining that like these levels are gonna disappear. And like, people were like, ‘okay, I’m gonna go archive this patch.’ Like, ‘if you go archive that patch, just like take video walkthroughs, like, take, just like record your game, like record your screen. Like we need to like assemble an archive.’\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I feel like, you know, everyone has different reasons for forming attachments to, to anything really. Um, but I do think that these virtual worlds can be almost like time capsules or like diaries. They do kind of reflect back to us like a certain period of our lives, maybe, like a certain moment, um, that we remember or a certain feeling we remember ourselves having in a certain world. And like, when people were mourning the future loss of their favorite World of Warcraft worlds, like, people were, like, ‘this level like reminded me of, like, when I had, like, just had my first, like girlfriend or something.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I don’t know, like it is like where they were in their like particular point in their life, like when they first encountered that world. I mean this is just such a human factor. We earmark and we tag and we superimpose like our own narratives onto place. And for me, it’s not a surprise that people would have that similar attachment to virtual worlds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when we lose access to these virtual worlds that we come to love? Sometimes, like in the case of Second Life, these spaces are abandoned by their former inhabitants, who’ve moved on to newer and less glitchy metaverses. But that’s not the only way to think about game death. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some virtual worlds blink out of existence before they have time to be abandoned, when game companies decide to pull the plug. Grieving these games that are suddenly taken offline can be a complicated process. And sometimes, it’s about grieving past lives of a game. Like in the World of Warcraft example Alice mentioned, when players restored a version that still included areas that had been wiped in the update. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it can be really challenging. It can be really tough. In that specific anecdote, I was curious so I actually, I started, uh, combing through the Reddit thread and like was going to some of the YouTube links and, um, reading some of like the subreddit like discourse. And people were like, you know, ‘thank you so much for preserving this. like, I felt sick to my stomach, like when I woke up with the update and like, I realized my, like, favorite world was gone. I was like having a panic attack. I was crying like, this has like, brought me back, you know, like, this has, like saved me.’\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, this kind of attachment can get really intense for a lot of people. Um, but I think that one of the cool things about that anecdote is like, the element of like collectivity, like, that goes into building these worlds and also maintaining them. But also a sort of, um, how do you say, almost like a death doula for virtual worlds, like, when they do come offline. It’s like, what are the, what’s the kind of rituals or forms of care we need to create together in order to, like, make sure that\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the memory of this world is defended and like, maintained and held. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I was really moved by the ways in which people were protecting the memories of these worlds for strangers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll explore this idea of game “death” more next week — and hear how a few online game communities have reacted to the loss of their virtual worlds. Some gamers have started a movement, calling on publishers to stop killing games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that’s a deep dive for next time. For now, we’re closing all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>This episode was produced by Francesca Fenzi and Chris Egusa, who is also our Senior Editor. It was edited by Chris Hambrick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Theme song and credits music by Chris Egusa, with additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gatoron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends to, or even your enemies or frenemies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you really like close all tabs and want to support public media, go to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.KQED.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Alice Bucknell on How Virtual Spaces Help Us Cope With Reality | KQED",
"description": "When wildfire engulfed much of Los Angeles earlier this year, artist and game designer Alice Bucknell found themselves stuck inside, replaying “Firewatch,” a quiet game about exploring the wilderness in anticipation of an impending wildfire. It helped them process emotions that felt too overwhelming in real life. “Firewatch,” and other games like it that focus on exploration rather than fighting or competing, are known as walking simulators. Throughout their career, Alice has used this approach to craft exploratory games that invite players to stretch their imagination and emotional capacity.In this episode, Morgan talks with Alice about how walking simulators and other virtual worlds can reframe our understanding of failure, climate grief, and our connection to one another. From simulating life as a moth to wandering through abandoned metaverses like Second Life, they explore how digital spaces can become sites of mourning, reflection, and hope.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When wildfire engulfed much of Los Angeles earlier this year, artist and game designer Alice Bucknell found themselves stuck inside, replaying “Firewatch,” a quiet game about exploring the wilderness in anticipation of an impending wildfire. It helped them process emotions that felt too overwhelming in real life. “Firewatch,” and other games like it that focus on exploration rather than fighting or competing, are known as walking simulators. Throughout their career, Alice has used this approach to craft exploratory games that invite players to stretch their imagination and emotional capacity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Morgan talks with Alice about how walking simulators and other virtual worlds can reframe our understanding of failure, climate grief, and our connection to one another. From simulating life as a moth to wandering through abandoned metaverses like Second Life, they explore how digital spaces can become sites of mourning, reflection, and hope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7727580366\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://alicebucknell.com/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAadPwBfOdoEUHmveOWOdXMqeOP3Ddvc7aVzOWBCFOIpE-3ogrm1q-u-_rZRrMg_aem_3c6B9f5aAuVP86uTOvuZwA\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice Bucknell\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, artist, writer, and game designer\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hcn.org/issues/57-3/the-video-game-that-makes-the-climate-apocalypse-look-good/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video game that makes the climate apocalypse look good\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Erin X. Wong, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">High Country News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.documentjournal.com/2024/05/second-life-virtual-world-gamer-furry-identity-world/\">Second Life’s loyal users embrace its decaying software and no-fun imperfections\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Alice Bucknell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Document Journal\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.upress.umn.edu/9781517900250/playing-with-feelings/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Playing with Feelings: Video Games and Affect\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Aubrey Anable, University of Minnesota Press\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of this year, wildfires ravaged Los Angeles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember like when the fires broke out, like it was a. At least one of them. Um, the end of the fire was like two miles from my place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice Bucknell is an artist, writer, and educator who specializes in video games. Like many LA residents, Alice jumped in to volunteer with mutual aid and cleanup efforts. But before it was safe to leave their home, they were stuck inside … waiting and watching the city burn. So while waiting, they turned to a game they’ve played over and over again: Firewatch. It’s set in the Wyoming wilderness, and, as you might have guessed, deals with wildfires.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even just the kind of color palettes of the game, like felt sickeningly familiar, um, after and during the whole process of the wildfires, like waking up in the daytime and going outside and the sky being like orange, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the game, you play as a park ranger on fire lookout duty. A lot of the game revolves around exploring the wilderness, which is under threat of being wiped out by wildfire. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While the real fire kept them inside, Alice wandered around this game world, racing time to explore before the fire could take it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> for them, it was a meditative experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I cried a lot playing that game, especially the most recent play through. Um, but the game is so beautiful as well because like what games can do is they can toggle across scales in a way that I don’t think any other medium really can. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Firewatch is what’s known as a “walking simulator.” Walking sims are games that revolve around exploring instead of competing or fighting. There’s a lot of focus on character development and maybe the occasional puzzle, instead of flashy combat. In a lot of walking sims, you, the player, have to interact with the world around you to drive the plot forward, like collecting pieces of a scattered puzzle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Walking sims are pretty controversial. They started getting popular around 2016, after Firewatch came out, and for the last decade, more traditional gamers have decried the genre as tedious and lacking actual gameplay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term walking simulator was used as an insult initially. You know, the, the kind of conventional way we think of video games has largely trended towards, um, high grossing games like war simulators or first person shooters, like these are historically the games that have made the most profit. Walking Sims are really different. Like there’s very little that can be done better, faster, harder than anyone else. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like the game rewards a certain slowing down and paying very close attention to the world around you. Because the nature of their mechanics are so simplistic and paired back, it actually allows them to get into really complex topics like grief or death or dying or mourning or ecological meltdown. Big complex topics can actually be paradoxically easily explored in, in my opinion, through the walking sim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the focus of a lot of Alice’s work: unpacking complicated, emotionally charged topics through game worlds. They don’t exclusively make walking sims, but their work usually involves building a world that’s meant to be explored. Like playing as a pack of wolves, roaming what’s left of urban LA after an ecological disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really interested in thinking about the game engine as this space for exploring and play testing the limits of human knowledge, [laughs] where different kinds of intelligence or different kinds of relationships can be experimented with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how does exploring these virtual spaces make overwhelming concepts, like climate apocalypse, more approachable? In this episode, we explore the art of exploring, what goes into building these game worlds, what they can offer to players that the real world can’t, and why we keep coming back to them. Alice is going to guide us through it and maybe even make the case for walking sims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know we start off. Let’s open a new tab, building a game world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice’s background is in anthropology and architecture, and they had always been interested in building virtual worlds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really came to it through an interest in storytelling and like specifically sci-fi and speculative fiction. I wanted to tell stories\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">around politics, society, culture, non-human intelligence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before they got into making games, Alice made animated short films. These films centered on dystopian climate disasters. In one, an arctic bird tells the story of humanity fleeing Earth, while flying over a frigid, flooded wasteland of submerged skyscrapers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Earthseed film]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bird: In 2090, humanity achieved its destiny. I watched from here as the spaceship took off, lighting up the night sky. They were on their way to colonize planet B.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instead of using animation software, Alice built this frozen landscape using a game engine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game engine is basically just, you know, a fancy way of saying the software that people use to build video games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of their films focused on the idea of agency in an uncertain future, whether the main characters were human or animals or plants. And Alice realized that viewer participation was a significant part of understanding these concepts. So they pivoted from using a game engine to create short films — to actually building games themselves. Letting the audience step into that world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Something really magical has to happen where the viewer has to become a player. You’re going from a passive audience to an active audience. Like they have to sort of work together. I mean, especially the games I, I make. They’re mostly two player games or multiplayer games. It felt like it, using the medium of gaming, which requires active participation, just felt like the way to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, exploring is usually so secondary in a lot of games. Um, but can you make the case for exploring these worlds, even if it’s not the focus of the game? Like what can this practice of exploration like offer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I love games that are kind of, yeah, like wandering games or open world games. Like I feel like as a kid, uh, these are always the games that I was most attracted to. Um, I think that they become a bit of like a mirror. Like they kind of maybe reflect back to us some of our own desires or ways of like, moving through the world, like offline or offscreen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think of these spaces as being really generative, like places to almost like, like rehearse or play test are reality as we know it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, how do you build a space that encourages exploration?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think by not telling people the rules,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think, yeah, having things be kind of freaky and open-ended. I do like creating conditions or, or environments where maybe the player thinks they know what’s going on, but then something will just come out of nowhere and like totally trip them up.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I like kind of messing with people’s expectations of like the power or like agency they have over the environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There’s something about like encouraging this kind of curiosity we don’t get to really use as adults, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, exactly. I think failing in games is really important and like a lot of people have written a lot of really cool books around that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People like Aubrey Anable have written really nicely about failure recently, thinking about games as a place not just for to experience individual failure, but to experience, like, systems collapsing. Like, what if failure isn’t naturally just this like individual shortcoming, but maybe failure could be extended to like an entire political or social system and maybe how we get to explore different kinds of failure in game worlds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice tackles systemic failure in their game, The Alluvials. It imagines a version of Los Angeles devastated by the climate apocalypse, once again inhabited by the critters native to Southern California. Even P-22 makes an appearance — he was the beloved mountain lion who settled in Griffith Park after somehow crossing two major freeways. P-22 became a symbol of human encroachment on the natural world. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice imagines Los Angeles’ future, without any human perspectives. In The Alluvials, all of the playable characters are non-human. But imagining the world from the perspective of a moth, or the wildfire itself, challenges players to confront difficult feelings of climate anxiety and grief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think when people play my games oftentimes they’re like, oh, this is so dystopian. Like, this is so melancholic. Like, this feels like you know, end of the world vibes. But I feel like for me, it’s also about trying to find moments of optimism or resilience or beauty or hope or pleasure. Yes, it’s a game about the politics of drought and water scarcity in LA it’s also trying to maybe get us out of this doom spiral of, like, thinking that like a big wildfire is like the apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, in fact, one of the levels you actually get to play as wildfire. And\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in that level I was really interested actually in maybe pushing back against this idea that fire is always necessarily a destructive force.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you look at forestry and like ecological studies, like there’s all this evidence proving that actually fire kind of has to happen every now and again because it clears the canopy. So it allows like new, uh, species to grow on the ground. It creates biodiversity. It creates resilience. It removes pests. So there’s all these really positive aspects of fire. And largely like California’s relationship to fire is largely a story of like private property ownership and people not wanting to practice controlled burning so then you end up getting the situation where there are these like mega fires because we haven’t practiced controlled burning. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, I mean, I think the game is trying to get people into a place maybe. Where some of the assumptions they make about the natural world, or how we fear or how we like certain natural events or entities, like maybe make us question why we feel that way. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, another one of the levels of the game of The Alluvials is what I call a pollination simulator. Um, and in this level, which is set in like a dried up near future version of the Hoover Dam, actually get to play either as a Joshua tree or a yucca moth. And these are two species in ecology studies, It’s called extreme symbiosis where basically what happens is these two species have evolved in such a way that they’ve become entirely codependent on each other, like, all of their other pollinators have died out. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I kind of think about the Joshua Tree and yucca moths as these sort of. lovers at the end of the world, you know, like, even if they exist in this incredibly precarious state, like there’s still something so beautiful about the ways that they sort of like support each other and keep each other alive, despite like all the odds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Navigating these virtual landscapes can help us explore deeper relationships. Not just the relationship between two creatures in a desert ecosystem, but complex, messy human relationships too. That’s after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back! And we’re opening a new tab, using game worlds to explore emotions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Through their game The Alluvials, Alice flipped the human relationship to the environment on its head and they did it playfully. Imagining these devastating outcomes through playful scenarios, like a yucca moth getting love drunk from pollinating Joshua trees, helps players find hope in an uncertain future. But what about when we go into games without the goal of play? These spaces can be powerful tools to experience and make peace with difficult emotions in our human relationships, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Video games can be a very productive place for processing grief or processing trauma. There’s a lot of game scholars, uh, people like Aubrey Anable or Bo Ruberg that talk about this notion of difficult gaming games that are kind of enabling us to experience other emotions, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">han just pleasure or happiness or the delight of sort of beating someone or, or beating a game,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice said that Firewatch, the game they played while waiting out the LA fires, is a perfect example of “difficult gaming.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I mean, Fire Watch for instance, it’s a game about anticipatory grief for the climate. Like, it’s a game where you’re playing as a park ranger and basically decided to leave your wife who has a terminal disease. Uh, but instead of being with her, you’ve decided to go take a job, uh, national forest. so you’re grieving and you’re heartbroken and you’re dealing with yeah, this guilt that you have for abandoning your partner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then simultaneously you’re dealing with the grief of an entire planet, like a planet scale, grief. And you’re dealing with a kind of feeling that something bad is gonna happen. Kind of the big fire, right, that’s definitely gonna happen at some point, but you don’t know exactly when. 90% of the game is just waiting, like, waiting for that disaster to happen. And I think that in a way, games can do this thing where, yeah, you’re able to sort of toggle between futures pasts and presents.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Games like Firewatch, you’re like waiting for something bad to happen and that thing is kind of always forever on the horizon. And I think that that was a feeling that everyone had in COVID as well, like knowing this thing was really rough, but not knowing the edges of it, like not knowing when it was going to end, the kind of anticipation of like, the world never being the same again, like, when we do get to go back outside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Games can kind of create that like, it’s almost like a primer or like a way to sort of experience the heaviness and the complexity of those feelings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What is it about exploring these virtual spaces that allow us to access feelings that we maybe won’t have more trouble processing in the real physical world?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think about maybe some, some kinds of virtual game space or virtual worlds, like the ones in Roblox or Second Life a sort of, um, non-place. Like, Marc Augé, this French anthropologist had talked about this idea of the non place, and he was kind of referring to it as places like train stations or fast food restaurants or airport terminals, like places that feel kind of dislocated from any physical, like, coordinates.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, he’s really talking about this feeling of like, in betweenness. And I think that, you know, for anyone who’s like, been at an airport and, like, struck up a conversation with a stranger, um, maybe like revealed something, look personal, ’cause it’s like, oh, I’m never gonna see this person again, like whatever. Uh, there’s kind like, I feel like sometimes you also get that in like virtual environments. Like I do feel like these virtual worlds open up i’s a bit like a, a role play where you feel like you can kind of be whoever you wanna be, or maybe you, you can, you can try out like a different personality or like a different kind of intimacy maybe than what you’re used to practicing in your quote unquote, like real life. We already kind of know that, that feeling of, like, an airport bar and like maybe how that would also open you up in a way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice plays with the concept of non-human entities in their game, Nightcrawlers. They describe it as a pollination simulator. It’s a two-player where one person plays as a flower, and the other plays as a bat. Players have to use echolocation and non-verbal communication to find each other, and when they do, play notes in sync to pollinate. It’s meant to challenge players to deepen their relationships with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, a game, you know, where you’re playing as a bat and you have to like, use sonar to find flower or if you’re playing as flower and you have to sort of dig under the ground and like fling yourself, like a slingshot across your own root system so you can pop up somewhere else in the world. These are very kind of like psychedelic experiences. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s asking you to kind of take on a form of intelligence that’s just so different from like how you move about the world in your day-to-day life, like, all the behaviors that you just do automatically walking around planet earth. I love the feeling of like playing a, a new game for the first time, uh, where you basically respond into the world and you’re kind of like a baby. Like you just don’t know anything. Like you’re waiting for the lore to load in. You’re waiting for like, you know, someone to tell you the reason that you’re there, someone to tell you how to move around, someone to tell you like what you should be desiring or what you should be working towards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s Alice’s game Small Void, a queer dating sim where players work together as matter and antimatter, two halves of the same object. The mechanics of the game are inspired by black hole paradoxes. Alice worked on it during their residency at the European Center for Nuclear Research. The two players have to catch each other, but when they do, they risk opening a black hole and starting the chase from scratch. In a way, it’s also a love story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Anything is possible and like, um, having to kind of relearn your relationship to the world from scratch. It can be frustrating ’cause sometimes you’re just like, tell me what to do, I don’t know what’s going on, like, help. But it can also be ,like, really joyful and like really, I would say like a bit child, like childlike feeling of this, like, sense of wonder of possibility. And I think it’s even more fun when you’re playing the game with someone because you can both like be tripping up and messing up and being confused and disoriented and, um, playing hide and seek together, you know, inside of a black hole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once the feeling of failure is removed, then it kind of opens us up to like all of these different, uh, possible ways of playing together. and what’s really cool for me as well is thinking about how that openness can be carried into real life, like when you put the controller down. Maybe that makes us a little less rigid in like our day-to-day routines and interactions too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Game worlds provide the space for processing, exploring, and relationship building that we can’t always find in the real world. We see this a lot in the sims. Like, how so many sims players — myself included — explored queerness through in-game relationships before they were ready for real-world ones. Or like during the LA wildfires, when Alice confronted their anxiety and grief by replaying Firewatch when they couldn’t go outside. For many, game worlds are a space for community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of my favorite examples of that, um was in the pandemic. A lot of people would be meeting up on multiplayer online games, games that nowadays have, like, incredibly sophisticated and beautiful landscapes. Of course, the point of mogs is not to admire the landscape, it’s to kind of engage with other players and maybe collaborate or fight each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in the pandemic, when we were all so nature starved and locked at home, uh, people were really gravitating towards multiplayer online games, not just as a point of social communication but actually as a place to even like, appreciate simulated nature together. So it was not uncommon for people to basically go onto Halo or other games and like basically just use the sort of structure of the game engine itself as a bit of like a national park or a nature watch and like meet up with their friends and go on these long walks together into the sunset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, just like spaces in the real world, sometimes a once-bustling locale can fizzle out. Its popularity dwindles and it starts feeling.. abandoned. What happens to these virtual worlds when players stop visiting? What’s the appeal of these multiplayer spaces, if the community has moved on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab, Is Second Life a dead game?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Second Life launched in 2003 as an expansive online world where you could be anyone, and do anything. It was the metaverse before all the tech nerds were obsessed with the metaverse. To this day, you can meet other players, fall in love, get married, buy property, get a job, adopt another player, be adopted by other players, pick up a new hobby … all of course, in game, and through a series of micro-transactions that require real money. You can literally live a second life online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world is huge but now, it’s empty. Second Life’s active user base peaked in 2010. But there are still players who are committed to showing up. Alice spent three weeks in the game last year while writing an anthropological report of Second Life for Document Journal. What they found was a digitally crumbling, desolate world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was playing around in Second Life. I think I felt like quite frustrated and I also felt quite alone. Um, because it is like, you get the feeling that it’s just this like gigantic,constellation of thousands of different worlds that are all custom made by someone real. These nightclubs or islands or places you can go and like maybe meet, meet people and talk to, talk to people, but then you, you, you portal into these worlds and there’s just no one there. It’s quite like, I would say almost like melancholic, um, I would say like the feeling of, of being inside of this world that once had such a kind of following I guess, and such a kind of, uh, busy crowd. Um, and now it’s sort of been abandoned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe it’s not so far from like the non place I was talking about earlier or the, the feeling of being in transit, um, because it feels a bit like you’re in this world that has been like forsaken. Like, it feels a bit like a archeological exercise. Like you’re trying to sort of like, uncover the kind of history of this place and try to find little clues in the landscape.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I think about online games, I assume that most people keep going back to them for the relationships they have with other players. But in games like Second Life, there’s like no one there. And you wrote about running into like one solitary person in this pretty much abandoned, like wasteland of a game. Why do you think people keep coming back to these virtual world if, even if there’s no one else there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, it’s by and large a wasteland. Yes, it’s like been forsaken, left for dead. Um, but I also think that because the odds of finding someone also exploring this world are so low, um, there is this feeling of like, magic when it does happen, that you do meet someone. And also, like, for some of these users, they really like the idea that they’re able to kind of hang out in this, like, otherwise, like, abandoned space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think when a lot of people talk about the reason they love games is usually like the storyline, or like the relationships they build with other players, the characters. But do you have any thoughts on, like, the relationships we build to the game worlds themselves and like these virtual spaces?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people get really attached. I think that’s not something that studios think about a lot either. I guess like, uh, it was one of the expansions of World of Warcraft, in which, um, they scrubbed like a lot of the, uh, areas of the world. Like, they just, they just cut ’em out basically to create more space, I guess, for better, like more optimized level design. Um, and there was this like Reddit forum where everyone was like, mourning. I mean, this is before the upgrade even happened, um, so this is before the levels had, had been erased for good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, but people were like, already, sort of, like, mourning and complaining that like these levels are gonna disappear. And like, people were like, ‘okay, I’m gonna go archive this patch.’ Like, ‘if you go archive that patch, just like take video walkthroughs, like, take, just like record your game, like record your screen. Like we need to like assemble an archive.’\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I feel like, you know, everyone has different reasons for forming attachments to, to anything really. Um, but I do think that these virtual worlds can be almost like time capsules or like diaries. They do kind of reflect back to us like a certain period of our lives, maybe, like a certain moment, um, that we remember or a certain feeling we remember ourselves having in a certain world. And like, when people were mourning the future loss of their favorite World of Warcraft worlds, like, people were, like, ‘this level like reminded me of, like, when I had, like, just had my first, like girlfriend or something.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I don’t know, like it is like where they were in their like particular point in their life, like when they first encountered that world. I mean this is just such a human factor. We earmark and we tag and we superimpose like our own narratives onto place. And for me, it’s not a surprise that people would have that similar attachment to virtual worlds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when we lose access to these virtual worlds that we come to love? Sometimes, like in the case of Second Life, these spaces are abandoned by their former inhabitants, who’ve moved on to newer and less glitchy metaverses. But that’s not the only way to think about game death. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some virtual worlds blink out of existence before they have time to be abandoned, when game companies decide to pull the plug. Grieving these games that are suddenly taken offline can be a complicated process. And sometimes, it’s about grieving past lives of a game. Like in the World of Warcraft example Alice mentioned, when players restored a version that still included areas that had been wiped in the update. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it can be really challenging. It can be really tough. In that specific anecdote, I was curious so I actually, I started, uh, combing through the Reddit thread and like was going to some of the YouTube links and, um, reading some of like the subreddit like discourse. And people were like, you know, ‘thank you so much for preserving this. like, I felt sick to my stomach, like when I woke up with the update and like, I realized my, like, favorite world was gone. I was like having a panic attack. I was crying like, this has like, brought me back, you know, like, this has, like saved me.’\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, this kind of attachment can get really intense for a lot of people. Um, but I think that one of the cool things about that anecdote is like, the element of like collectivity, like, that goes into building these worlds and also maintaining them. But also a sort of, um, how do you say, almost like a death doula for virtual worlds, like, when they do come offline. It’s like, what are the, what’s the kind of rituals or forms of care we need to create together in order to, like, make sure that\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the memory of this world is defended and like, maintained and held. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I was really moved by the ways in which people were protecting the memories of these worlds for strangers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll explore this idea of game “death” more next week — and hear how a few online game communities have reacted to the loss of their virtual worlds. Some gamers have started a movement, calling on publishers to stop killing games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that’s a deep dive for next time. For now, we’re closing all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>This episode was produced by Francesca Fenzi and Chris Egusa, who is also our Senior Editor. It was edited by Chris Hambrick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Theme song and credits music by Chris Egusa, with additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gatoron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends to, or even your enemies or frenemies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you really like close all tabs and want to support public media, go to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.KQED.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "a-political-reckoning-for-twitch",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TwitchCon, Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming, is facing heightened scrutiny after streamer Emiru was assaulted there during a meet-and-greet. The incident occurred after a series of streamers pulled out of the event over safety concerns and the growing specter of political violence. All of this has highlighted questions about the role of political commentary on Twitch — a genre that’s exploded in the last few years, transforming the platform into much more than a gaming site. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by author and reporter Nathan Grayson and political streamer Denims to explore Twitch’s rise as a hub for political speech, the company’s inconsistent handling of backlash against political creators, and whether any real alternatives exist for this new wave of commentators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6693258081\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/author/nathan-grayson\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nathan Grayson\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, co-founder and reporter at Aftermath \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/denims\">Denims,\u003c/a> political streamer on Twitch\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/twitch-twitchcon-2025-security-emiru-assault-irl-streamers\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beefed Up TwitchCon Security Couldn’t Stop The Internet’s Issues From Spilling Over Into Real Life\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nathan Grayson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aftermath\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.usermag.co/p/can-twitch-survive-ceo-dan-clancy-at-twitchcon-interview\">Can Twitch Survive? CEO Dan Clancy at Twitchcon\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Taylor Lorenz\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>User Mag\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Stream-Big/Nathan-Grayson/9781982156763\">Stream Big: The Triumphs and Turmoils of Twitch and the Stars Behind the Screen\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nathan Grayson\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mashable.com/article/twitchcon-unsafe-for-streamers\">Why is TwitchCon so uniquely unsafe for streamers?\u003c/a> — Christianna Silva, \u003ci>Mashable\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$ speaking to a crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get a hell yeah!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hell yeah!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>bbno$:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Twitchcon!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitchcon!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right click! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two weekends ago, the live streaming platform Twitch held its 10th annual TwitchCon. That’s Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming. And the tape you just heard was the rapper turned cosplayer, bbno$, performing at one of the creator after parties. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">F*ck yeah, TwitchCon! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I went into this weekend’s planning to cover Twitch’s evolution as an influential platform for political speech. These creators have massive audiences and have the potential to educate and inspire entire generations into civic engagement. And my quest to talk to them brought me here… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right click! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TwitchCon has had its controversies in the past, from the infamous foam pit that severely injured multiple attendees to streamers from the rival platform Kick sneaking in to harass Twitch creators. But this time, the event was held in the shadow of this country’s mounting political violence, most notably the recent assassination of right-wing political commentator Charlie Kirk. In the weeks leading up to the convention, high-profile streamers like Hasan Piker dropped out of the event citing concern over public safety and political violence. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking during a livestream: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m worried about the safety of others. I don’t want to put them in the f*cking crosshairs if some psycho freak decides like, I’m gonna go there. I’m very publicly not going to TwitchCon for that reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And concerns about safety boiled over completely when, on the first day of the event, a streamer named Emiru was assaulted during her Twitch-organized meet and greet. A man was able to cross multiple barriers through other creators’ meet and greet lines before he grabbed Emiru and tried to forcibly kiss her. In a statement, Twitch said that, “Law enforcement and event security were on site and responded to the incident.” But Emiru said that event staff didn’t step in to stop him. It was her own private security that intervened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emiru speaking to an audience : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, if you watch the clip, the security guard who pushes the guy away is my security, the woman who pulls me to the back, my manager. If you’re a small streamer and you don’t have those resources or someone in your line is not filming, what the f*ck do you do? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitch did significantly beef up security before this year’s event. We’re talking more surveillance, more bodyguards, the whole nine yards. Still, the assault haunted TwitchCon all weekend. Other streamers, the overwhelming majority of whom were women, posted that they were nervous about going to the convention center. Some hired their own private security last minute, or even canceled their meet and greets. Several posted about getting harassed by fans and other male streamers during the event. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the last day of the convention, Twitch hosted an open Q&A for streamers and fans to talk directly to the company’s CEO, Dan Clancy. Finally, in the middle of the panel, an attendee stepped up to the mic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Q&A Attendee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How’s it going? I’ve been coming to TwitchCon since 2016. I love Twitch’s platform. I think the elephant in the room right now is just like there’s a lot of big creators that don’t necessarily feel that this is the safest space in person or necessarily online and I was just curious as to the additional steps that Twitch is going to take to make that, to change that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Clancy during Q&A: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Livestreaming offers some advantages in terms of the ability to control your community, but it’s still this issue that people of all sizes, it’s not just, you know, women of course have a challenge, but also underrepresented groups often have this problem of harassment online. And it’s something we care deeply about and we’re always looking for how we continue to invest to help protect creators as they go on their journey. So thanks for the question. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This weekend was a reckoning for Twitch. The streaming community has been embroiled in debate over the culture of misogyny on the platform and the parasocial relationships that endanger creators. And it highlighted questions about the role of political commentary in streaming, a genre of content that’s exploded in the last few years, establishing Twitch as more than a gaming site. Now it’s a legitimate platform for political discourse and not everyone is happy about that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into Twitch, political speech online, and whether creators have anywhere else to go if they can’t talk about it on Twitch. This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many people associate political commentary with traditional formats, like broadcast talk shows and op-eds, that kind of thing. But over the last few election cycles, an alternative information ecosystem has been growing across social media, including Twitch. But throughout its growth, Twitch hasn’t figured out how to handle this kind of content, from moderation to responding to public backlash. And as commentary streamers gain more influence Twitch has faced increasing scrutiny from both Democratic and Republican lawmakers who aren’t thrilled about this growing sphere of leftist discussion. Some are pushing Twitch to crack down on political speech and after the Charlie Kirk shooting, that pressure has been kicked into overdrive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand how we got here, let’s go back to the very beginning by opening a new tab. When did Twitch get so political? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get into this, let’s talk to my friend Nathan Grayson, co-founder and reporter at Aftermath. It’s a worker-owned publication reporting on video games. He’s also the author of Stream Big, which explains the history of Twitch by profiling nine different streamers. Twitch has changed and morphed many times since it spun off from the live streaming site Justin.tv in 2011. And for much of that time, Twitch had a singular focus, gaming.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a long time in Twitch’s history, you were required to be playing a video game while streaming, like that was a rule and people tried to get around it and all these like really funny ways. Like there was an era where somebody would like invert kind of the size of their camera views. So instead of the game being really big and them being small, they’d be huge and there’d be a tiny little like bit of gameplay in the corner. That wasn’t technically allowed so people would get in trouble for it. But yeah, so it was that kind of a thing. And so it was pretty hard, you know, to like be a political commentator when you also had to be like, keeping up with a League of Legends match and Twitch finally said like, ‘Hey, you know, you guys clearly want to just talk to your audiences. We hear you, we’re going to let you.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2017, Twitch launched two new categories, Just Chatting and IRL, short for in real life. They paved the way for a new type of streamer, a chronically online talk show host. Hasan Piker, who was then a producer for the Young Turks, started streaming on Twitch the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking to a livestream audience: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s going on, everybody? I’m going to get really quickly into it. OK, today we have an awesome episode… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He started getting big around 2019, you know, it was like, he started that year with like a hundred thousand followers and ended it with like close to half a million. And so 2020, I think definitely, especially like, allowed us all to take off because we were all stuck inside as a result of the pandemic and there’s an election. The internet, when it comes to politics, especially, and then these like major events in the political landscape, like elections, it’s just chaos. There’s so much happening. And the role that somebody like Hasan serves is that they curate it for you, you know? And they do it in a language that you, as somebody who regularly like browses the internet, can understand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking to a livestream audience: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So let me like walk you through it. The reason why you push for a shutdown in this situation is to really highlight what you are seeking to protect, okay? And what you’re seeking to protect in this circumstance is $800 billion of cuts for Medicaid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is it about this particular moment in internet history that made political streams so popular on Twitch, beyond just Hassan? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, one of the things is a pandemic. You cannot understate the importance of that moment in that I would say that is when everybody’s world inverted. Before that, real life was the main thing and the internet was supplementary to it. And then with everybody stuck inside because of the pandemic, suddenly the internet became the real thing and real life with supplementary to it. And we never really went back. And as a result, I mean like, you know, the pandemic itself is heavily politicized. Um, there was a big election that year, you know, Trump and Biden, which was going to decide the future of America. Um, not long after January 6th happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these landmark political events as like, you now, Gen Z in particular was coming of age, they were becoming kind of, I guess, like politically activated in that moment. And these are the people doing the job because, you know, the old institutions were failing them. A lot of news networks were not covering this moment, um, accurately or usefully. And then you had people like a Hasan step and be like, okay, ‘well I’m gonna tell you how things are actually as I see them’ as opposed to like, you know, it’s business as usual because it clearly wasn’t. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there is this pivotal moment for pandemic-era politics online, the Among Us stream. In 2020, in the weeks leading up to the election, representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar hosted a voter outreach event entirely on stream. They invited popular creators to play Among Us, a game that had become a phenomenon during the pandemic. Everyone plays as cute little characters, but one of them is a secret killer. If you’ve ever played Mafia, you get the idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Game play conversation]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker 1: Ilhan you need to vote. You need to click on AOC and then… AOC: Are you, are you really gonna do this to me, Ilhan? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ilhan: No, I’m not voting for Alex. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AOC: Thank you. Thank you very much. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Among Us was the game at that time because Among Us allowed people to, you know, have a place to play together during this time of intense separation. And so it blew up and like, they capitalized on that zeitgeist and they’re like, yeah, as a politician, I’m going to play it with a bunch of people that you’ve heard of. So I’m gonna reach these new audiences, maybe you’ve of me, but like, don’t really know me that well and aren’t that into politics. And these streamers definitely are political streamers, aside from Hasan. Most of them are semi-progressive, but they’re not like experts in the field. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, yeah, they, they pulled, you know, hundreds of thousands of viewers, um, and just generally managed to do something that nobody really had before, at least in that space. And I think at the time, a lot of people saw that and they said, okay, you know this is it, this is the new politics meta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hasan’s popularity and influence, and all of the other political streamers that followed in his footsteps, launched Twitch into the spotlight. But all of that attention comes with a hefty dose of criticism. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s something Denims has become very familiar with. She’s a political streamer who basically runs a morning talk show on Twitch, streaming five days a week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think Hassan really put Twitch on the radar in a more general sense because prior to that it was just like, oh, isn’t that some gaming website if you even knew about it at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How has your experience as a political content creator changed on Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people were a lot more lackadaisical with how they would stream and I think I’ve noticed myself as well as a lot other people be a lot cautious with the things that they talk about because there are a lot bad faith actors that do want to see left-wing voices silenced. I mean, under the Trumpian era, he’s practically just saying if you have an opinion that isn’t pro-me, I don’t want you on the air. That’s the reason Kimmel got off the air. Because Donald Trump didn’t want him on the air because he didn’t like the things that he was saying because he was making fun of Donald Trump. So yeah, it does feel like everyone has to be more cautious on Twitch because there’s a bigger magnifier on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s political climate is very different from the one that Hasan began streaming in. The vibe has shifted, and the stakes are higher. What does this mean for Twitch? And more importantly, what does it tell us about the state of political speech online? We’re diving into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time to open another tab. Is political speech still allowed on Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politicians have been trying to capitalize on Twitch’s popularity among young voters for years, with mixed results. Former Congressman Matt Gaetz, for instance, streamed on Twitch and peaked at six viewers. Then you have Senator Bernie Sanders going on stream and learning a lot about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Bernie Sanders livestream]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Poki: Mr. Sanders, my name’s Poki. So nice to meet you. I’m a big fan, as you can tell. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bernie Sanders: Thank you very much. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: I’m Saikuno. Do you know what a VTuber is? Have you heard of a Vtuber before? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bernie Sanders: Nope. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: No.? That’s all right. I’m the first one.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: Yeah, it’s the first one. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: Thank you so much for supporting Vtubers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s California governor Gavin Newsom showing off his elite gaming skills. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Connor Eats Pants: Gavin press press the press the X button or Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: Oh, yeah, where am I man? Where are we? No, sorry. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last clip is from a few weeks ago, when Newsom joined Fortnite Friday, a weekly show in which a streamer who goes by Connor Eats Pants interviews guests while they play Fortnite. The quality of the guests’ play varies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: Jesus Christ, I closed things out. See, I don’t like this Nintendo Switch stuff. I’m back in, man. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Aftermath reporter Nathan again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of those are not necessarily political streamers, political content creators and so if you do it right, you’re reaching people you would never otherwise reach. And the way that you do that is a little different than like, you know, I’m gonna go on this debate and talk about my policies. It’s, I’m going to talk to this person that, you know, other people find relatable, and I’m just gonna like, hang out, laugh, tell jokes, get a little bit more personal with things, or at least appear more personal. You know, that the ConnorEatsPants stream with Gavin Newsom is illustrative because I think that Gavin Newsom talked a very big game and then, you know, a few days later vetoed a bunch of pro-trans legislation after being like… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: You know, you’re talking to a guy who’s been a champion of LGBT rights. I take a backseat to no one in signing more bills for the community. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that we’re also seeing, like, at least in the case of somebody like Connor, you know, these people who came up on the internet, pretty young, like growing up. And even as he was like, kind of decamping from the Gavin Newsom stream, he was talking about how like, he’s had to kind of become better versed in a lot of these things as he’s talked to more and more political figures. He’s also interviewed people like George Santos. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people were asking him why he didn’t push harder on a couple subjects and he was like, ‘I just didn’t feel like I was informed enough to do it well, and I want to do it right instead of, you know, like stumbling through it and then letting him off easy,’ Um, but he still did a crazy good job. I mean, like, I don’t know if anyone has held Gavin Newsom’s feet to the fire on like Israel Palestine stuff that well, he just like kept him on track. It was really impressive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While playing Fortnite, it was incredible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s good at Fortnite too. Gavin Newsom is not good at Fortnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ConnorEatsPants: \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You closed out of it on the switch. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. I don’t like this. I can’t, this switch is not \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">suboptimal.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ConnorEatsPants: You gotta get a Switch 2, they fixed it. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it seems like political streamers on Twitch have faced constant backlash in the last few years. What was the turning point for this? Like, when did they suddenly become so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, Israel/Palestine, um, and in particular Hasan being pro-Palestinian because then you had all of these other people trying to bring him down because he’s such an outspoken and like visible pro-Palestinian voice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few years ago, Hasan collaborated with another YouTuber, Ethan Klein, on a weekly politics and culture podcast called Leftovers. They don’t work together anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">October 7th occurred and they started to drift in terms of their viewpoints.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For context, Ethan’s wife is Israeli. Hasan and Ethan did one last very emotional, hours-long episode of Leftovers together, in which they try to explain their opposing views to each other. But they ultimately put the show on hiatus. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since their breakup, Ethan has gone from criticizing Hasan’s political stances to making frequent personal attacks about Hasan and anyone critical of Israel. Hasan, meanwhile, started gaining more mainstream attention and viewership, and has rarely acknowledged Ethan since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then Ethan was like, well, then I’m gonna come after people that you know. And that’s like what resulted in those streamers getting banned after the TwitchCon panel and all that. And ever since then, it’s been much more personal and much more of a back and forth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Nathan says ‘streamers getting banned after a TwitchCon panel,’ he’s actually referring to an incident with denims. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got banned for 30 days for a tier list about who can say the word habibi, which is just the arab word for like love or like my love. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Denims participated in a panel, organized by Twitch, with other Arab-American creators. They made a tier list—it’s a meme format for ranking things. At the top of the list were creators who Denims and the other panelists deemed worthy of saying Habibi. The tiers ranked from Arab, Arab-coded, asks permission to say Habibi, thinks the word is a slur and then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the bottom of the list, it says “loves Sabra”, because sabra is a sh*tty type of hummus that’s not good. And anyone who’s had Sabra and had actual good hummus, you know that Sabra’s got this bitter taste. It’s like buying freezer pie. It’s just not good. Like, you should just make it from scratch. And so if you love Sabra hummus you’re like, this is my favorite hummus, you do not get the pass, you don’t get the pass. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Analysts placed Ethan Klein in the loves Sabra category. He very quickly posted his response. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Twitch Has a Major Problem Youtube post]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Klein: I mean, it’s kind of just Arab good, Jew bad. I mean I’m having a hard time seeing this any other way. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some critics claim that it was deeper, because Sabra, the hummus brand, was a boycott target over its parent company’s support of the IDF. Then others pointed out that the word Sabra, a prickly pear cactus fruit, has been used to describe Jewish people born in Israel. One of the panelists was Jewish, but that didn’t stop the accusations of antisemitism. Clips of the panel went viral, kicking off a frenzy of backlash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We make multiple references to hummus on that panel. So we’re very clearly talking about hummus. But there was this massive campaign to pretend like, no, we were making this Jew to Arab tier list, which is insane. It doesn’t make any sense because we put a bunch of people who weren’t Jewish, myself included in the bottom tier list. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that all five of the creators on that panel are left-leaning and make content about supporting progressive political issues. And they’re all vocally pro-Palestine.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and Twitch caved and banned us for 30 days, which was insane because again, you’re just telling the platform, you’re telling everyone on that platform, hey, if you pressure us hard enough we’ll just cave and wrongfully ban anyone you want which is not, it’s not good for the health of the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nathan described Twitch’s approach to moderating political content as haphazard. The site was relatively left-leaning until recently, thanks to Hasan’s influence and the platform’s strict policies against harassment and hate speech. These violations are pretty clear-cut when a streamer says a slur, for example. But Twitch has struggled to draw clear boundaries around political speech. Critics say the company tends to cave to backlash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitch is always reactive when it comes to this stuff. They are not proactive. They don’t really know how to moderate this. I think that they don’t mind that because it gives them legitimacy, but they also don’t want to engage with the full ramifications of it. So they’re just sort of flying by the seat of their pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Denims, for one, has been frustrated by this inconsistency. She and the other panelists received 30-day bans for last year’s Twitch con tier list. Asmongold, a right-wing political streamer, was banned for 14 days for violating Twitch’s hateful conduct policy with a racist tirade against Palestinians. Denims noted that other creators have been allowed to return to the platform, even though they’ve received multiple bans for saying slurs on stream. But streamers who talk about politics, even if it’s just explaining a news story, are under more\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s sad because it doesn’t actually matter what you’re doing on Twitch. You can do basically anything on Twitch and you won’t get banned for it, almost anything, as long as there isn’t anyone actively trying to organize a campaign to get you banned. They’re in desperate need of help on figuring out how to handle politics on Twitch \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Klein’s efforts to pick fights with Hasan, and anyone associated with him, have also been picked up by actual elected officials. Like last year, when Congressman Ritchie Torres penned an open letter to Twitch executives, calling on them to rein in anti-Semitism on the platform. He cited Hasan’s comments criticizing Israel, which Hasan said were clipped and taken out of context. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash against progressive voices on Twitch has been mounting since Trump took office. Charlie Kirk’s death only intensified it. The accused shooter Tyler Robinson had made references to memes and video games in his Discord messages and on the bullet casings. In the days following the shooting, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee requested the attendance of the CEOs of Discord, Steam, Reddit, and Twitch at a hearing on radicalization and extremism on their sites. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The hearing was postponed because of the government shutdown, but the increased criticism of online political speech has made talking about current events especially complicated for streamers like Denims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Twitch, if you say anything and there are any people hate-watching, they will try as hard as they can to clip you, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clipping as\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in literally pulling clips from streams and posting them on Twitter or TikTok and sites like that. Sometimes viewers will go out of their way to post clips out of context. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think I’ve just gotten, again, so internet brainrotted that when I speak, I will speak in full sentences and like, reiterate points over and over and over again. So, like, during the Charlie Kirk assassination, I said multiple times, like every two sentences I was saying, ‘I don’t condone the assassinating of any political content creators or political media influencers, or any of these any pundits.’ Like, because you have to because you can’t say any sentences without immediately having that because you wanna make it as hard as possible to be clipped for anything you say to be posted. Cause even the few things that I have been clipped for, it’s like you play for like another 20 seconds and there’s context there. What I will say is it’s just more frustrating than it is anything else because we should collectively be able to talk about issues without worrying whether or not there was enough context in a 30 second clip. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But would Twitch ever really ban political content? And if they did, is there any space on the internet to still engage in these conversations? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab. Where can you stream besides Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s super unlikely that any creator would be able to launch and maintain their own version of Twitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Creating a site like that is easier said than done because streaming is super expensive. You know, this has been Twitch’s own problem over the years. Twitch is not profitable, has not been profitable because there’s just so much bandwidth involved and when you are a streaming platform, your operation becomes more expensive as it gets bigger. And so in some ways it’s bad to grow, but, you know, it’ll be interesting to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adding to the economic complexity is the fact that political content on Twitch rarely has ads. That’s because last year, Twitch rolled out a label for politics and sensitive social issues. Streamers have to label their content if they include former or current politicians talking about policies, coverage of elections, discussions of foreign policy, and any commentary and topics like gender, race, sexuality, or religion in a, “polarizing or inflammatory manner.” Basically, it lets advertisers opt out of advertising next to anything political and it also silos this kind of content. I asked Denims if she’d ever jump ship if Twitch continues to demonetize political speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not really, no, because your alternatives are like streaming on YouTube, streaming on TikTok, which I don’t know to be fair, how good or bad TikTok live streaming is. I genuinely just like, I struggle to use the platform because I’m just not Zoomer enough yet for it. And then what’s the alternative like Kick? Yeah, you can be right next to the other 1700 gambling streamers. So there isn’t really, like, another place that I think a lot of people could call home. I think most people would end up just going to YouTube, which again should incentivize Twitch to improve their platform because why would you want to lose a bunch of creators to YouTube? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. After the shooting and after the response and all these crackdowns, a lot of people were speculating that Twitch would just ban political content in response to that. Do you ever see that happening? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I don’t think Twitch will ever ban political content. I think that they understand that it’s too lucrative is the wrong word, but that it legitimizes the platform too much for them to remove it. It’s the same reason that YouTube would rather go through all of these proceedings with Congress than ever take down political content on YouTube because they enjoy the hegemony that they have over media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s the thing with Twitch. Twitch doesn’t wanna lose its spot as being like the number one live streaming platform because they decided they couldn’t handle the heat of politics. I think that they want it. And I think they want that market share. I think that they just don’t know how to thread the needle just yet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like there’s been a massive pushback against general right-wing restriction of freedom of speech. And so I feel on Twitch, yeah, people are more cautious, but I think also people want to see other people fight and people want to fight. I mean, at one point, was it four million people canceled their like Disney subscription because Kimmel got put off the shelf? Like, that’s insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The congressional hearing on radicalization and online extremism was supposed to happen earlier this month. It’s unclear when or if the hearing will be rescheduled. The pressure to crack down on political speech isn’t unique to Twitch. Like we’ve talked about on the show before, this suppression is happening all over the internet. So then, what does the future of political streaming look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s hard to say. I think that if Twitch has its way, things won’t change too much, which of course, I don’t think they want anything to really change. They just wanna keep adding more layers of monetization to the site. But, you know, the hearing could go any number of ways and so at least in some regard, it will decide that future. If Hasan gets banned, then that’s an entirely different set of circumstances. That’s like a whole different reality. You know it’s the flap of the butterfly’s wings. Like we’ll see. I cannot predict that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The uncertainty hasn’t discouraged Denims from streaming. She’s been sued, doxed, harassed, and threatened, but she’s determined to keep her morning show going. For her, it’s about more than free speech than politics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I just believe in what I say and I want to say what I believe and I think what I believe is empathy driven and it’s encouraging a world that makes everyone’s life better. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless of whether or not I agree with you, I still want you to have health care. Whether or I agree, I still want you have housing. I still want you to have clean water, clean air. I think it’s cowardly to stop fighting for that, especially from, like, the comfort of my own home. Even if it, like, means a bunch of people will hate me, I don’t really care. It’s hard to care when I know that what I’m talking about is just improving everyone’s lives. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s happening on Twitch is a case study on the political content creator sphere as a whole. Across social media, across all the apps, these creators have amassed influence. The new generation of political pundits has proven that this niche can be lucrative. These content creators are incredibly valuable for social media companies if they’re making money, and also valuable to political figures to access new audiences. That is, until people use platforms like TikTok and Twitch to express dissent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And yet… People love to post, and they love consuming content. There will always be a demand for this kind of commentary, especially as younger generations rely on political content creators to explain the news. So we don’t know what the future of political streaming looks like, but it’s clear that it’s not going away anytime soon. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode is produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Tovin-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAlltabspod or TikTok @Closealltabs. And join our Discord. We’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "TwitchCon, Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming, is facing heightened scrutiny after streamer Emiru was assaulted there during a meet-and-greet. The incident occurred after a series of streamers pulled out of the event over safety concerns and the growing specter of political violence. All of this has highlighted questions about the role of political commentary on Twitch — a genre that's exploded in the last few years, transforming the platform into much more than a gaming site. In this episode, Morgan is joined by author and reporter Nathan Grayson and political streamer Denims to explore Twitch’s rise as a hub for political speech, the company’s inconsistent handling of backlash against political creators, and whether any real alternatives exist for this new wave of commentators.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TwitchCon, Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming, is facing heightened scrutiny after streamer Emiru was assaulted there during a meet-and-greet. The incident occurred after a series of streamers pulled out of the event over safety concerns and the growing specter of political violence. All of this has highlighted questions about the role of political commentary on Twitch — a genre that’s exploded in the last few years, transforming the platform into much more than a gaming site. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by author and reporter Nathan Grayson and political streamer Denims to explore Twitch’s rise as a hub for political speech, the company’s inconsistent handling of backlash against political creators, and whether any real alternatives exist for this new wave of commentators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6693258081\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/author/nathan-grayson\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nathan Grayson\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, co-founder and reporter at Aftermath \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/denims\">Denims,\u003c/a> political streamer on Twitch\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/twitch-twitchcon-2025-security-emiru-assault-irl-streamers\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beefed Up TwitchCon Security Couldn’t Stop The Internet’s Issues From Spilling Over Into Real Life\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nathan Grayson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aftermath\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.usermag.co/p/can-twitch-survive-ceo-dan-clancy-at-twitchcon-interview\">Can Twitch Survive? CEO Dan Clancy at Twitchcon\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Taylor Lorenz\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>User Mag\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Stream-Big/Nathan-Grayson/9781982156763\">Stream Big: The Triumphs and Turmoils of Twitch and the Stars Behind the Screen\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nathan Grayson\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mashable.com/article/twitchcon-unsafe-for-streamers\">Why is TwitchCon so uniquely unsafe for streamers?\u003c/a> — Christianna Silva, \u003ci>Mashable\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$ speaking to a crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get a hell yeah!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hell yeah!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>bbno$:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Twitchcon!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitchcon!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right click! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two weekends ago, the live streaming platform Twitch held its 10th annual TwitchCon. That’s Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming. And the tape you just heard was the rapper turned cosplayer, bbno$, performing at one of the creator after parties. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">F*ck yeah, TwitchCon! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I went into this weekend’s planning to cover Twitch’s evolution as an influential platform for political speech. These creators have massive audiences and have the potential to educate and inspire entire generations into civic engagement. And my quest to talk to them brought me here… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right click! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TwitchCon has had its controversies in the past, from the infamous foam pit that severely injured multiple attendees to streamers from the rival platform Kick sneaking in to harass Twitch creators. But this time, the event was held in the shadow of this country’s mounting political violence, most notably the recent assassination of right-wing political commentator Charlie Kirk. In the weeks leading up to the convention, high-profile streamers like Hasan Piker dropped out of the event citing concern over public safety and political violence. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking during a livestream: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m worried about the safety of others. I don’t want to put them in the f*cking crosshairs if some psycho freak decides like, I’m gonna go there. I’m very publicly not going to TwitchCon for that reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And concerns about safety boiled over completely when, on the first day of the event, a streamer named Emiru was assaulted during her Twitch-organized meet and greet. A man was able to cross multiple barriers through other creators’ meet and greet lines before he grabbed Emiru and tried to forcibly kiss her. In a statement, Twitch said that, “Law enforcement and event security were on site and responded to the incident.” But Emiru said that event staff didn’t step in to stop him. It was her own private security that intervened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emiru speaking to an audience : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, if you watch the clip, the security guard who pushes the guy away is my security, the woman who pulls me to the back, my manager. If you’re a small streamer and you don’t have those resources or someone in your line is not filming, what the f*ck do you do? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitch did significantly beef up security before this year’s event. We’re talking more surveillance, more bodyguards, the whole nine yards. Still, the assault haunted TwitchCon all weekend. Other streamers, the overwhelming majority of whom were women, posted that they were nervous about going to the convention center. Some hired their own private security last minute, or even canceled their meet and greets. Several posted about getting harassed by fans and other male streamers during the event. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the last day of the convention, Twitch hosted an open Q&A for streamers and fans to talk directly to the company’s CEO, Dan Clancy. Finally, in the middle of the panel, an attendee stepped up to the mic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Q&A Attendee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How’s it going? I’ve been coming to TwitchCon since 2016. I love Twitch’s platform. I think the elephant in the room right now is just like there’s a lot of big creators that don’t necessarily feel that this is the safest space in person or necessarily online and I was just curious as to the additional steps that Twitch is going to take to make that, to change that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Clancy during Q&A: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Livestreaming offers some advantages in terms of the ability to control your community, but it’s still this issue that people of all sizes, it’s not just, you know, women of course have a challenge, but also underrepresented groups often have this problem of harassment online. And it’s something we care deeply about and we’re always looking for how we continue to invest to help protect creators as they go on their journey. So thanks for the question. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This weekend was a reckoning for Twitch. The streaming community has been embroiled in debate over the culture of misogyny on the platform and the parasocial relationships that endanger creators. And it highlighted questions about the role of political commentary in streaming, a genre of content that’s exploded in the last few years, establishing Twitch as more than a gaming site. Now it’s a legitimate platform for political discourse and not everyone is happy about that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into Twitch, political speech online, and whether creators have anywhere else to go if they can’t talk about it on Twitch. This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many people associate political commentary with traditional formats, like broadcast talk shows and op-eds, that kind of thing. But over the last few election cycles, an alternative information ecosystem has been growing across social media, including Twitch. But throughout its growth, Twitch hasn’t figured out how to handle this kind of content, from moderation to responding to public backlash. And as commentary streamers gain more influence Twitch has faced increasing scrutiny from both Democratic and Republican lawmakers who aren’t thrilled about this growing sphere of leftist discussion. Some are pushing Twitch to crack down on political speech and after the Charlie Kirk shooting, that pressure has been kicked into overdrive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand how we got here, let’s go back to the very beginning by opening a new tab. When did Twitch get so political? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get into this, let’s talk to my friend Nathan Grayson, co-founder and reporter at Aftermath. It’s a worker-owned publication reporting on video games. He’s also the author of Stream Big, which explains the history of Twitch by profiling nine different streamers. Twitch has changed and morphed many times since it spun off from the live streaming site Justin.tv in 2011. And for much of that time, Twitch had a singular focus, gaming.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a long time in Twitch’s history, you were required to be playing a video game while streaming, like that was a rule and people tried to get around it and all these like really funny ways. Like there was an era where somebody would like invert kind of the size of their camera views. So instead of the game being really big and them being small, they’d be huge and there’d be a tiny little like bit of gameplay in the corner. That wasn’t technically allowed so people would get in trouble for it. But yeah, so it was that kind of a thing. And so it was pretty hard, you know, to like be a political commentator when you also had to be like, keeping up with a League of Legends match and Twitch finally said like, ‘Hey, you know, you guys clearly want to just talk to your audiences. We hear you, we’re going to let you.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2017, Twitch launched two new categories, Just Chatting and IRL, short for in real life. They paved the way for a new type of streamer, a chronically online talk show host. Hasan Piker, who was then a producer for the Young Turks, started streaming on Twitch the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking to a livestream audience: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s going on, everybody? I’m going to get really quickly into it. OK, today we have an awesome episode… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He started getting big around 2019, you know, it was like, he started that year with like a hundred thousand followers and ended it with like close to half a million. And so 2020, I think definitely, especially like, allowed us all to take off because we were all stuck inside as a result of the pandemic and there’s an election. The internet, when it comes to politics, especially, and then these like major events in the political landscape, like elections, it’s just chaos. There’s so much happening. And the role that somebody like Hasan serves is that they curate it for you, you know? And they do it in a language that you, as somebody who regularly like browses the internet, can understand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking to a livestream audience: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So let me like walk you through it. The reason why you push for a shutdown in this situation is to really highlight what you are seeking to protect, okay? And what you’re seeking to protect in this circumstance is $800 billion of cuts for Medicaid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is it about this particular moment in internet history that made political streams so popular on Twitch, beyond just Hassan? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, one of the things is a pandemic. You cannot understate the importance of that moment in that I would say that is when everybody’s world inverted. Before that, real life was the main thing and the internet was supplementary to it. And then with everybody stuck inside because of the pandemic, suddenly the internet became the real thing and real life with supplementary to it. And we never really went back. And as a result, I mean like, you know, the pandemic itself is heavily politicized. Um, there was a big election that year, you know, Trump and Biden, which was going to decide the future of America. Um, not long after January 6th happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these landmark political events as like, you now, Gen Z in particular was coming of age, they were becoming kind of, I guess, like politically activated in that moment. And these are the people doing the job because, you know, the old institutions were failing them. A lot of news networks were not covering this moment, um, accurately or usefully. And then you had people like a Hasan step and be like, okay, ‘well I’m gonna tell you how things are actually as I see them’ as opposed to like, you know, it’s business as usual because it clearly wasn’t. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there is this pivotal moment for pandemic-era politics online, the Among Us stream. In 2020, in the weeks leading up to the election, representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar hosted a voter outreach event entirely on stream. They invited popular creators to play Among Us, a game that had become a phenomenon during the pandemic. Everyone plays as cute little characters, but one of them is a secret killer. If you’ve ever played Mafia, you get the idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Game play conversation]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker 1: Ilhan you need to vote. You need to click on AOC and then… AOC: Are you, are you really gonna do this to me, Ilhan? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ilhan: No, I’m not voting for Alex. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AOC: Thank you. Thank you very much. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Among Us was the game at that time because Among Us allowed people to, you know, have a place to play together during this time of intense separation. And so it blew up and like, they capitalized on that zeitgeist and they’re like, yeah, as a politician, I’m going to play it with a bunch of people that you’ve heard of. So I’m gonna reach these new audiences, maybe you’ve of me, but like, don’t really know me that well and aren’t that into politics. And these streamers definitely are political streamers, aside from Hasan. Most of them are semi-progressive, but they’re not like experts in the field. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, yeah, they, they pulled, you know, hundreds of thousands of viewers, um, and just generally managed to do something that nobody really had before, at least in that space. And I think at the time, a lot of people saw that and they said, okay, you know this is it, this is the new politics meta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hasan’s popularity and influence, and all of the other political streamers that followed in his footsteps, launched Twitch into the spotlight. But all of that attention comes with a hefty dose of criticism. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s something Denims has become very familiar with. She’s a political streamer who basically runs a morning talk show on Twitch, streaming five days a week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think Hassan really put Twitch on the radar in a more general sense because prior to that it was just like, oh, isn’t that some gaming website if you even knew about it at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How has your experience as a political content creator changed on Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people were a lot more lackadaisical with how they would stream and I think I’ve noticed myself as well as a lot other people be a lot cautious with the things that they talk about because there are a lot bad faith actors that do want to see left-wing voices silenced. I mean, under the Trumpian era, he’s practically just saying if you have an opinion that isn’t pro-me, I don’t want you on the air. That’s the reason Kimmel got off the air. Because Donald Trump didn’t want him on the air because he didn’t like the things that he was saying because he was making fun of Donald Trump. So yeah, it does feel like everyone has to be more cautious on Twitch because there’s a bigger magnifier on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s political climate is very different from the one that Hasan began streaming in. The vibe has shifted, and the stakes are higher. What does this mean for Twitch? And more importantly, what does it tell us about the state of political speech online? We’re diving into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time to open another tab. Is political speech still allowed on Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politicians have been trying to capitalize on Twitch’s popularity among young voters for years, with mixed results. Former Congressman Matt Gaetz, for instance, streamed on Twitch and peaked at six viewers. Then you have Senator Bernie Sanders going on stream and learning a lot about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Bernie Sanders livestream]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Poki: Mr. Sanders, my name’s Poki. So nice to meet you. I’m a big fan, as you can tell. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bernie Sanders: Thank you very much. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: I’m Saikuno. Do you know what a VTuber is? Have you heard of a Vtuber before? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bernie Sanders: Nope. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: No.? That’s all right. I’m the first one.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: Yeah, it’s the first one. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: Thank you so much for supporting Vtubers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s California governor Gavin Newsom showing off his elite gaming skills. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Connor Eats Pants: Gavin press press the press the X button or Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: Oh, yeah, where am I man? Where are we? No, sorry. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last clip is from a few weeks ago, when Newsom joined Fortnite Friday, a weekly show in which a streamer who goes by Connor Eats Pants interviews guests while they play Fortnite. The quality of the guests’ play varies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: Jesus Christ, I closed things out. See, I don’t like this Nintendo Switch stuff. I’m back in, man. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Aftermath reporter Nathan again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of those are not necessarily political streamers, political content creators and so if you do it right, you’re reaching people you would never otherwise reach. And the way that you do that is a little different than like, you know, I’m gonna go on this debate and talk about my policies. It’s, I’m going to talk to this person that, you know, other people find relatable, and I’m just gonna like, hang out, laugh, tell jokes, get a little bit more personal with things, or at least appear more personal. You know, that the ConnorEatsPants stream with Gavin Newsom is illustrative because I think that Gavin Newsom talked a very big game and then, you know, a few days later vetoed a bunch of pro-trans legislation after being like… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: You know, you’re talking to a guy who’s been a champion of LGBT rights. I take a backseat to no one in signing more bills for the community. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that we’re also seeing, like, at least in the case of somebody like Connor, you know, these people who came up on the internet, pretty young, like growing up. And even as he was like, kind of decamping from the Gavin Newsom stream, he was talking about how like, he’s had to kind of become better versed in a lot of these things as he’s talked to more and more political figures. He’s also interviewed people like George Santos. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people were asking him why he didn’t push harder on a couple subjects and he was like, ‘I just didn’t feel like I was informed enough to do it well, and I want to do it right instead of, you know, like stumbling through it and then letting him off easy,’ Um, but he still did a crazy good job. I mean, like, I don’t know if anyone has held Gavin Newsom’s feet to the fire on like Israel Palestine stuff that well, he just like kept him on track. It was really impressive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While playing Fortnite, it was incredible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s good at Fortnite too. Gavin Newsom is not good at Fortnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ConnorEatsPants: \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You closed out of it on the switch. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. I don’t like this. I can’t, this switch is not \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">suboptimal.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ConnorEatsPants: You gotta get a Switch 2, they fixed it. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it seems like political streamers on Twitch have faced constant backlash in the last few years. What was the turning point for this? Like, when did they suddenly become so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, Israel/Palestine, um, and in particular Hasan being pro-Palestinian because then you had all of these other people trying to bring him down because he’s such an outspoken and like visible pro-Palestinian voice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few years ago, Hasan collaborated with another YouTuber, Ethan Klein, on a weekly politics and culture podcast called Leftovers. They don’t work together anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">October 7th occurred and they started to drift in terms of their viewpoints.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For context, Ethan’s wife is Israeli. Hasan and Ethan did one last very emotional, hours-long episode of Leftovers together, in which they try to explain their opposing views to each other. But they ultimately put the show on hiatus. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since their breakup, Ethan has gone from criticizing Hasan’s political stances to making frequent personal attacks about Hasan and anyone critical of Israel. Hasan, meanwhile, started gaining more mainstream attention and viewership, and has rarely acknowledged Ethan since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then Ethan was like, well, then I’m gonna come after people that you know. And that’s like what resulted in those streamers getting banned after the TwitchCon panel and all that. And ever since then, it’s been much more personal and much more of a back and forth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Nathan says ‘streamers getting banned after a TwitchCon panel,’ he’s actually referring to an incident with denims. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got banned for 30 days for a tier list about who can say the word habibi, which is just the arab word for like love or like my love. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Denims participated in a panel, organized by Twitch, with other Arab-American creators. They made a tier list—it’s a meme format for ranking things. At the top of the list were creators who Denims and the other panelists deemed worthy of saying Habibi. The tiers ranked from Arab, Arab-coded, asks permission to say Habibi, thinks the word is a slur and then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the bottom of the list, it says “loves Sabra”, because sabra is a sh*tty type of hummus that’s not good. And anyone who’s had Sabra and had actual good hummus, you know that Sabra’s got this bitter taste. It’s like buying freezer pie. It’s just not good. Like, you should just make it from scratch. And so if you love Sabra hummus you’re like, this is my favorite hummus, you do not get the pass, you don’t get the pass. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Analysts placed Ethan Klein in the loves Sabra category. He very quickly posted his response. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Twitch Has a Major Problem Youtube post]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Klein: I mean, it’s kind of just Arab good, Jew bad. I mean I’m having a hard time seeing this any other way. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some critics claim that it was deeper, because Sabra, the hummus brand, was a boycott target over its parent company’s support of the IDF. Then others pointed out that the word Sabra, a prickly pear cactus fruit, has been used to describe Jewish people born in Israel. One of the panelists was Jewish, but that didn’t stop the accusations of antisemitism. Clips of the panel went viral, kicking off a frenzy of backlash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We make multiple references to hummus on that panel. So we’re very clearly talking about hummus. But there was this massive campaign to pretend like, no, we were making this Jew to Arab tier list, which is insane. It doesn’t make any sense because we put a bunch of people who weren’t Jewish, myself included in the bottom tier list. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that all five of the creators on that panel are left-leaning and make content about supporting progressive political issues. And they’re all vocally pro-Palestine.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and Twitch caved and banned us for 30 days, which was insane because again, you’re just telling the platform, you’re telling everyone on that platform, hey, if you pressure us hard enough we’ll just cave and wrongfully ban anyone you want which is not, it’s not good for the health of the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nathan described Twitch’s approach to moderating political content as haphazard. The site was relatively left-leaning until recently, thanks to Hasan’s influence and the platform’s strict policies against harassment and hate speech. These violations are pretty clear-cut when a streamer says a slur, for example. But Twitch has struggled to draw clear boundaries around political speech. Critics say the company tends to cave to backlash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitch is always reactive when it comes to this stuff. They are not proactive. They don’t really know how to moderate this. I think that they don’t mind that because it gives them legitimacy, but they also don’t want to engage with the full ramifications of it. So they’re just sort of flying by the seat of their pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Denims, for one, has been frustrated by this inconsistency. She and the other panelists received 30-day bans for last year’s Twitch con tier list. Asmongold, a right-wing political streamer, was banned for 14 days for violating Twitch’s hateful conduct policy with a racist tirade against Palestinians. Denims noted that other creators have been allowed to return to the platform, even though they’ve received multiple bans for saying slurs on stream. But streamers who talk about politics, even if it’s just explaining a news story, are under more\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s sad because it doesn’t actually matter what you’re doing on Twitch. You can do basically anything on Twitch and you won’t get banned for it, almost anything, as long as there isn’t anyone actively trying to organize a campaign to get you banned. They’re in desperate need of help on figuring out how to handle politics on Twitch \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Klein’s efforts to pick fights with Hasan, and anyone associated with him, have also been picked up by actual elected officials. Like last year, when Congressman Ritchie Torres penned an open letter to Twitch executives, calling on them to rein in anti-Semitism on the platform. He cited Hasan’s comments criticizing Israel, which Hasan said were clipped and taken out of context. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash against progressive voices on Twitch has been mounting since Trump took office. Charlie Kirk’s death only intensified it. The accused shooter Tyler Robinson had made references to memes and video games in his Discord messages and on the bullet casings. In the days following the shooting, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee requested the attendance of the CEOs of Discord, Steam, Reddit, and Twitch at a hearing on radicalization and extremism on their sites. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The hearing was postponed because of the government shutdown, but the increased criticism of online political speech has made talking about current events especially complicated for streamers like Denims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Twitch, if you say anything and there are any people hate-watching, they will try as hard as they can to clip you, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clipping as\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in literally pulling clips from streams and posting them on Twitter or TikTok and sites like that. Sometimes viewers will go out of their way to post clips out of context. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think I’ve just gotten, again, so internet brainrotted that when I speak, I will speak in full sentences and like, reiterate points over and over and over again. So, like, during the Charlie Kirk assassination, I said multiple times, like every two sentences I was saying, ‘I don’t condone the assassinating of any political content creators or political media influencers, or any of these any pundits.’ Like, because you have to because you can’t say any sentences without immediately having that because you wanna make it as hard as possible to be clipped for anything you say to be posted. Cause even the few things that I have been clipped for, it’s like you play for like another 20 seconds and there’s context there. What I will say is it’s just more frustrating than it is anything else because we should collectively be able to talk about issues without worrying whether or not there was enough context in a 30 second clip. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But would Twitch ever really ban political content? And if they did, is there any space on the internet to still engage in these conversations? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab. Where can you stream besides Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s super unlikely that any creator would be able to launch and maintain their own version of Twitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Creating a site like that is easier said than done because streaming is super expensive. You know, this has been Twitch’s own problem over the years. Twitch is not profitable, has not been profitable because there’s just so much bandwidth involved and when you are a streaming platform, your operation becomes more expensive as it gets bigger. And so in some ways it’s bad to grow, but, you know, it’ll be interesting to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adding to the economic complexity is the fact that political content on Twitch rarely has ads. That’s because last year, Twitch rolled out a label for politics and sensitive social issues. Streamers have to label their content if they include former or current politicians talking about policies, coverage of elections, discussions of foreign policy, and any commentary and topics like gender, race, sexuality, or religion in a, “polarizing or inflammatory manner.” Basically, it lets advertisers opt out of advertising next to anything political and it also silos this kind of content. I asked Denims if she’d ever jump ship if Twitch continues to demonetize political speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not really, no, because your alternatives are like streaming on YouTube, streaming on TikTok, which I don’t know to be fair, how good or bad TikTok live streaming is. I genuinely just like, I struggle to use the platform because I’m just not Zoomer enough yet for it. And then what’s the alternative like Kick? Yeah, you can be right next to the other 1700 gambling streamers. So there isn’t really, like, another place that I think a lot of people could call home. I think most people would end up just going to YouTube, which again should incentivize Twitch to improve their platform because why would you want to lose a bunch of creators to YouTube? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. After the shooting and after the response and all these crackdowns, a lot of people were speculating that Twitch would just ban political content in response to that. Do you ever see that happening? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I don’t think Twitch will ever ban political content. I think that they understand that it’s too lucrative is the wrong word, but that it legitimizes the platform too much for them to remove it. It’s the same reason that YouTube would rather go through all of these proceedings with Congress than ever take down political content on YouTube because they enjoy the hegemony that they have over media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s the thing with Twitch. Twitch doesn’t wanna lose its spot as being like the number one live streaming platform because they decided they couldn’t handle the heat of politics. I think that they want it. And I think they want that market share. I think that they just don’t know how to thread the needle just yet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like there’s been a massive pushback against general right-wing restriction of freedom of speech. And so I feel on Twitch, yeah, people are more cautious, but I think also people want to see other people fight and people want to fight. I mean, at one point, was it four million people canceled their like Disney subscription because Kimmel got put off the shelf? Like, that’s insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The congressional hearing on radicalization and online extremism was supposed to happen earlier this month. It’s unclear when or if the hearing will be rescheduled. The pressure to crack down on political speech isn’t unique to Twitch. Like we’ve talked about on the show before, this suppression is happening all over the internet. So then, what does the future of political streaming look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s hard to say. I think that if Twitch has its way, things won’t change too much, which of course, I don’t think they want anything to really change. They just wanna keep adding more layers of monetization to the site. But, you know, the hearing could go any number of ways and so at least in some regard, it will decide that future. If Hasan gets banned, then that’s an entirely different set of circumstances. That’s like a whole different reality. You know it’s the flap of the butterfly’s wings. Like we’ll see. I cannot predict that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The uncertainty hasn’t discouraged Denims from streaming. She’s been sued, doxed, harassed, and threatened, but she’s determined to keep her morning show going. For her, it’s about more than free speech than politics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I just believe in what I say and I want to say what I believe and I think what I believe is empathy driven and it’s encouraging a world that makes everyone’s life better. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless of whether or not I agree with you, I still want you to have health care. Whether or I agree, I still want you have housing. I still want you to have clean water, clean air. I think it’s cowardly to stop fighting for that, especially from, like, the comfort of my own home. Even if it, like, means a bunch of people will hate me, I don’t really care. It’s hard to care when I know that what I’m talking about is just improving everyone’s lives. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s happening on Twitch is a case study on the political content creator sphere as a whole. Across social media, across all the apps, these creators have amassed influence. The new generation of political pundits has proven that this niche can be lucrative. These content creators are incredibly valuable for social media companies if they’re making money, and also valuable to political figures to access new audiences. That is, until people use platforms like TikTok and Twitch to express dissent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And yet… People love to post, and they love consuming content. There will always be a demand for this kind of commentary, especially as younger generations rely on political content creators to explain the news. So we don’t know what the future of political streaming looks like, but it’s clear that it’s not going away anytime soon. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode is produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Tovin-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAlltabspod or TikTok @Closealltabs. And join our Discord. We’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do colorful and plush Labubu dolls have in common with Mesopotamian mythology? If you believe some viral TikToks, everything. Recent conspiracy theories have linked the toys to everything from ancient demonic spirits to Satan worship. But behind those ideas flooding online feeds is something older and darker: the return of moral panic. In this episode, host Morgan Sung digs into how a new generation of “satanic panic” has gone digital, from fears of occult rituals in song to online crusades against queer and trans people. Journalist Sarah Marshall, host of the new podcast series The Devil You Know, joins Morgan to help trace how misinformation and moral outrage keep recycling the same fears — just with new villains. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7641922375\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.remembersarahmarshall.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sarah Marshall\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, journalist and host of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re Wrong About \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://app.magellan.ai/listen_links/Qub2Qv\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CBC Podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://yourewrongabout.buzzsprout.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re Wrong About\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah Marshall\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vox.com/culture/23025505/leftist-groomers-homophobia-satanic-panic-explained\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The right’s moral panic over “grooming” invokes age-old homophobia\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Aja Romano, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vox\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cbc.ca/arts/satan-wants-you-filmmakers-q-a-sean-horlor-steve-j-adams-1.6822213\">The strange origins of the Satanic Panic: How one Canadian book started a worldwide witch hunt\u003c/a> — Leah Collins, \u003ci>CBC Arts\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Host, Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note – this episode includes mentions of sexual abuse, so listen with care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Labubus blew up this year, right? They’re the super trendy, colorful little blind box plushies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The dolls, which are usually listed for $22 are now in some cases fetching hundreds of dollars on resale sites.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But is there something darker hiding behind these collectible plushies? Something demonic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look beyond the little sharp teeth, the little mischievous grin and those little eyes, these names can be linked to ancient spirits.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On top of that, there’s an actual demon named Pezuzu, which sounds very similar to Labubu.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a real demon from Mesopotamian mythology. It’s about plagues, chaos, and fear.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y’all, when I say different toys that give you the hey jeebies or you feel that nudge in your spirit, it is warning you to not open up the door and allow that demonic spirit into your home.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have gone super viral by claiming that they unwittingly bought their child a little boo boo, only for it to spiritually terrorize their family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Others are pulling up Bible verses about Satan’s disguises, which apparently now includes super trendy collectibles with exorbitant resale value.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. That particular verse means that he doesn’t come with horns or fire, but he can come marketed and gift wrapped and trendy just as these dolls do.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of moral fear mongering is not new. Back in the 80s, it was known as the satanic panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Members of satanic or occult groups share common traits such as the access to perform perverted sex acts, such as homosexuality, bisexuality, sodomy, bestiality, and necrophilia. All of these acts are carried out in the name of Satan.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KABC Devil Worship \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When kids will do their, their sacrificing and their animal mutilation, they’ll do it within a pentagram, and allow the blood to drip into some kind of container because they use it for bathing in or drinking.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re seeing the same moral fear mongering take place online. Once, some people thought Furbys were the devil’s toy. Now it’s Labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Journalist Sarah Marshall has been trying to understand why these cycles keep repeating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest, Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Sarah Marshall. I host a podcast called You’re Wrong About\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about misremembered history.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And now she has a new show called The Devil You Know. It’s a CBC podcast miniseries about the satanic panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, do you think Labubus are demonic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it depends on how you use the word demonic. I think one of the questions that I try to look at in the show and also want us all to look at in this time of rolling satanic panics is like, what are people using the words Satan to mean?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because there’s a good solid slice of that pie chart, I think throughout history is anything that we don’t like and want to vilify as strongly and as quickly as we possibly can.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so at the time I was first learning about this, it felt like something the country hadn’t reckoned with yet, and it was very shocking to me, and feels much less shocking now because we’re doing it again after all this time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sarah’s new miniseries got me thinking about what satanic panic looks like in the digital age, beyond Labubu conspiracy theories. As somewhat of an expert in this particular moment in history, Sarah is going to explain how satanic panic spread so quickly. And what to look out for to avoid falling for it again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand the way fear mongering spreads online and targets innocent people, we have to go back in time by opening a new tab: What was the satanic panic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this: The year is 1980. The North American Mall is thriving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the golden age of arcades, VCRs are the hot new thing, and there’s big hair and acid washed jeans. Oh, and seems like Satan is lurking around every corner, because a rapidly spreading fear is taking hold of North America, that satanic cults are indoctrinating and ritually abusing children.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a bunch of kind of roots to that phenomenon, but a really big moment is the publication of a book in 1980 called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michelle Remembers,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where a woman goes through what I have always imagined to be hypnotherapy. I have no confirmation of this, but she ends up in some kind of trance-like state that her therapist puts her in. And he develops the idea very quickly that she has been abused by a satanic coven.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ultimately, the story ends up being a very sensational bestseller, and then it’s treated as a textbook by police and by therapists and so on who are learning how to recognize child abuse and who are told that satanic abuse is the kind they should really be looking for and things really take off from there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like you said, there are these major cultural flashpoints that sparked this massive panic. There was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michelle Remembers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and then there’s the McMartin preschool trial, which is this highly publicized case investigating claims of child sexual abuse in the 80s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Newsclip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The allegations went beyond sexual molestation. They were tales of satanic rites, of pornographic pictures, of the mutilation of animals to frighten the children into silence.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But from the beginning, the defendants in the case, the teachers, have insisted that they were the victims of a latter day witch hunt.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then throughout the series, you also connect the spread of satanic panic to the progressive direction that culture was moving in. How did marginalized groups gaining rights suddenly lead to satanic panic? Like, what’s the bigger cultural context here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, ironically, so much of this appears actually to be a backlash to the idea of people getting out from under the thumb of some of the more dangerous aspects of American Christianity, you know, and this idea of women’s liberation is a very recent phenomenon. We’ve successfully struck down the ERA in the United States, of course, but it was still, still a real concern as the 80s started that women might get real rights at some point.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By ERA, Sarah’s talking about the Equal Rights Amendment, a proposed amendment to prohibit sex-based discrimination.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was passed by Congress in 1972, but then it was sent to the states to be ratified. Religious groups and conservatives stalled the process.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gay liberation is also a movement that’s underway, and so I think it’s always pretty easy to sell to people the idea, like, wouldn’t it be nice if you didn’t have to accept your kid as who they were? Wouldn’t it be great if you could just say that the Satanists were making them do that? You know, I think that’s a big part of the sales point for this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That explains some of the cultural context.The media landscape also played a huge part in fueling satanic panic. In 1987, the fairness doctrine ended.That was the FCC policy that required broadcasters to present different perspectives when reporting on any issues of public importance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When the fairness doctrine ended, local TV stations went all out with sensationalized reporting and pretty much no fact checking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of them is that historically, you know, to my understanding, if you’re, if you’re working in media really at any level locally or nationally, you have been allowed to say, well, the police said this, so that’s probably true, you know, like only very recently has it become, I think, to any degree normalized to even early on in the conversation, be like, well, the police say this, but they’re just one of many sources, you know, by, by American journalism for quite a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was an area in Ohio where law enforcement wasted an astounding amount of money searching for the mass grave of satanic sacrifices that they believe just had to be there because somebody had found a little piece of red thread hanging off a tree limb and was like, well, that’s got to be Satanists.Who else could, no non-Satanist could put thread in a tree like this. And there’s, you know, and they didn’t find anything, arguably because there was nothing there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of a horror story about what happens when we give the police too much power and credibility. And also, as you can imagine, and it’s hard in many ways to fault people for this-In…if you’re working in media and you’ve got to try and get your story on air and maybe, you know, you’re trying to advance your career, you’re trying to get places, there is nothing that will make people stay on your channel more than saying satanic sacrifice, you know, it’s just, it’s hard to beat that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, how profitable was the satanic panic machine?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Man, I don’t have numbers in front of me, but I mean, if you look at the kind of media that was on TV throughout the 80s and into the 90s, it just spread like wildfire through, through primetime news and also through daytime TV because this is a time of like many competing talk shows on TV. Oprah was kind of getting her sea legs at this point, and I think every single one of them covered satanic cults at some point in the 80s. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, the author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Satan’s Underground \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was uncovered very thoroughly. As an acknowledged fraudster who once she got tired of pretending to be a satanic abuse survivor, started pretending to be a Holocaust survivor. Um, and so it also became over time like really fertile ground for con artists. So it’s just there’s kind of something for everyone in this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are pure of heart, it gives you something really important to put your energy behind and if you just want to scam people or get attention, you can also do that. And if you want to scare adults, you can paint a pentagram on something you can have that as well, and boy did they freak out when they saw those.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Satanic panic often targeted people who didn’t fit into society’s mold, who didn’t abide by traditional values. They weren’t into the occults, they were just different. And more often than not, the targets of satanic panic were queer, like in the case of the San Antonio Four. That was a group of four friends who were all openly lesbian in Texas in the mid-90s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the women hosted her two nieces for a weeklong visit in 1994.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The nieces, who were 7 and 9 at the time, accused the group of sexually abusing them as part of a satanic ritual. The ensuing media frenzy and the prosecutors portrayed the group as a perverse lesbian cult, indoctrinating and sacrificing little girls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The women were convicted and spent nearly 15 years in prison before one of the nieces recanted her testimony. She admitted that she had been coached into accusing her aunt and her friends because her family was upset that her aunt was a lesbian. Satanic panic was laced with homophobia from the start, and that was true in the case of the San Antonio Four.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, at the core of this case, we have this, to me, just so intensely bittersweet story of these four young women who are able to kind of create a safe home for each other and their children and who were accused of organized and ritualistic child abuse by a male family member who had a grudge against one of these young women for resisting his advances, you know. And so I think one of the things it shows is that by the 1990s, when this case took place, and into the 2000s, but when all this began, you could argue that, some men might have figured out that accusing a woman who got in your way or who didn’t do what you wanted her to, especially a queer woman, of child abuse or ritualistic abuse or satanism, that that was maybe going to be very useful to you, because we had created through the satanic panic, this idea that if you were queer, you are much more likely to be one of these Satanists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um and again, that was also a way for mainstream culture to Pretend to not notice that the majority of people committing child sexual abuse are men who the child knows already. We had to sort of figure out an opposite direction to put our energy in so we could keep ignoring the real problem, I think, in some ways. And so it’s just It becomes a very useful myth, and it’s very scary to see that in action.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does any of this sound familiar to you: Scary gay people, grooming and indoctrinating children?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[News Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics are tearing into a drag story time for toddlers held at a public library.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[News Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The library told a local news site that there wasn’t any sexualized content planned for this drag storytime.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We don’t always call it the satanic panic today, but this moral fear mongering and backlash against marginalized communities isn’t all that different. We’ll dive into that after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The San Antonio 4 case started just before I was born, and the openly lesbian women who were wrongfully accused and convicted of satanic ritual abuse, weren’t exonerated until I was in my 20s. In pop culture, satanic panic seems like an era of cultural history that happened decades ago, before it was neatly wrapped up and put to rest. But in reality, echoes of satanic panic still exist today, and thanks to the internet, that fear mongering is more insidious than ever. Let’s talk about what it looks like in a new tab: The new satanic panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Did satanic panic ever really die out?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a time when I would have said it did, and now I’m like, no, yeah, it’s still there. It’s like when you go camping and they’re like, please dowse your campfires. Please just pour so much water on them and stare at them for a long time. And sometimes, you know, the American legal system is like, I think that’s fine, let’s just go home. And then it just sort of like just keeps smoldering away. And I think that nothing has been more helpful in its desire to to spread and grow and become as big as it once was, than the Trump administration, as, as you might imagine. Surprise!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let’s cover the satanic panic of today. I mean, there’s obviously the conservative backlash to provocative art, like, I’m thinking of Cynthia Erivo playing Jesus and Jesus Christ Superstar, and then it goes a little further where people were convinced that Lady Gaga’s Coachella performance, which had like occult references and biblical imagery.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lady Gaga has been blaspheming Jesus for basically her entire career.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lady Gaga is a practicing witch and has been very open about the spell that she is casting and the hex that she is casting in her song Abracadabra.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People genuinely thought that was a satanic ritual, but moral panics aren’t always as overt as that. I mean, they’re not, oh my God, this thing is demonic, this labubu equals Pazuzu kind of situation. What are the more subtle moral panics you’ve seen recently?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of them that seems, and this is my personal diagnosis of a moral panic, or kind of an aspect of our satanic panic of today, because the anxiety parents feel over trans kids in school sports, which is something that I, you know, personally believe politicians whipped up out of really the clear blue sky in order to give them something to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this idea that your child is somehow more in danger from another child on their soccer team than they are from, again, the adult men in the world generally who they already know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s so interesting that we always have the search for theoretical Satanists who are always just kind of right out of reach when megalomaniacal white men have always been right there, front and center.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, in the series, you dive into this concept of moral entrepreneurship. What is that? And how does that connect to the kind of more insidious, quieter moral panic that we’re seeing today, that isn’t strictly like, look at Satan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, you know, a classic example that many of us have probably seen at this point is one of these like very cheesy 80s, how to spot Satanism in your community, you know, law enforcement training videos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Law Enforcement Guide to Satanic Cults\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In satanic occultism, that which is good is bad and that which is bad is good, and as you view this learning and educational tape, pay attention to notice the reverse of everything that is normal becoming abnormal.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think one of the things the satanic panic did that I think we’re seeing today and what pops to mind for me is, you know, some of the really fraudulent businesses that have been built around our fear of human trafficking and sort of creating in people the idea that human trafficking, you know, and which in reality is about wage theft and about undocumented workers, you know, being enslaved essentially, and that’s typically how it, I think happens statistically most often. But which is reinvented into a theory that, like, 37 year old white women such as myself are going to get kidnapped at Michael’s, you know, and, and be put on a slave ship, which is something white women love to think about ourselves inexplicably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think that there’s, there’s this idea in the 80s satanic panic and that we’re very much seeing today that it’s so nice to be able to get rich and be the ultimate hero protecting women and children from violence and Satanism. At the same time, it offers what feels like a virtuous heroic way to make so much money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, speaking of those anti-trafficking videos or those like warning, there’s a creepy guy in the Michael’s parking lot stalking women. Like I, I always watch so many of those and like I, it gets to the end, you know, they’re showing all the different ways to protect yourself against these scary faceless people, and it gets to the end and I’m like, oh, it was an ad. You’re selling me, you’re selling me a product to supposedly protect myself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen those too, yes, and that’s so depressing that they, yeah, that there’s a real, real push to commodify women’s fear. And yeah, and it’s always like if if you come back to your car and someone’s taped a banana to the door, never eat that banana, it’s like, well, I could have known that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So how do moral panic spread today? What goes into feeding them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, things were volatile enough in the 80s when we had at the time, this what felt very instantaneous form of spread of information through cable news and through magazines and papers and and things like that. And now, of course, I mean, our, the lifespan of all of our trends is like 20 minutes, you know, and so we, the way that misinformation can spread around the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it feels to me like there’s some kind of unwritten law that misinformation must always be faster than information. And I don’t know why, but there is, there is the adage that, you know, a lie can spread around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. And now that time is, is even shorter, I would say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think it’s, you know, just in social media, whether people are attempting to tell the truth or not, there’s a real bias towards what we know will get people’s attention, and, you know, if it bleeds it leads famously. And if it bleeds from a little Satanist dagger, then then that’s even better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think to me, one of the big problems, and this does feel very different from the satanic panic of the 80s, is that we now exist in our very own little media worlds most of the time, you know. It’s one of the things that’s so unsettling about the satanic panic of the 80s, is that everybody was watching the same nightly news and hearing the same stories, but I think, currently it worries me even more that today you have, you know, people walking around in their very own pockets of information and not even having to consume the same media as each other. So if I want to get really deep into a conspiracy theory, I can, and I don’t have to see anything that’s critical of it necessarily. And the sort of the way that people can shield themselves from information today, I don’t like it. I don’t like that part.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, we really are just all in our own little bubbles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and I think that, you know, one of the things, probably the most meaningful thing that helps us to realize that we’re not the only person who exists in the world is not what we consume, but how we interact with each other. And that feels like something that a lot of people have to put real effort in trying to just be around other human beings. Um, and I guess that’s the promise of Satanism too, you know, they’re just, they’re like always getting large groups of people together to do a hobby. It’s really very impressive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Pickleball really is just Satanism. That’ll be the new danger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the takeaway from this conversation. Yeah, look, anything that people adopt that quickly, I do feel a little suspicious about. I got to be honest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So queer people are still largely the target of these moral panic campaigns, particularly trans people. And back then the panic was over children and satanic ritual abuse cults, and now it’s over children who have access to gender affirming care. What Mechanisms are being rehashed here, like, what nachos are being reheated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God, not very bad nachos, just stay away from the nachos. But I, I mean, I think that what’s, what’s kind of interesting is that in many ways we’ve cut out the middle man and taught people not to fear for their child, but just to fear their child, you know, and to feel that, if your child starts living as as their identity tells them to, in terms of gender or in terms of any aspect of belief, questioning your belief system, then they become your enemy, it seems like in a lot of the rhetoric that we’re seeing today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this idea that your child who you love, that that love you feel for them is allowed culturally and really encouraged, I think at this point to become weaponized, into that same amount of anger if they don’t become the person that you’re trying to mold them into. That to me is so scary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like to think that some of these people know that what they’re doing is wrong, because like the the degree of child abuse sanctioned by some Christian religious authorities in this country has been absolutely shocking, puts, you know, the satanic panic stories to shame and it’s led to the death of like an appreciable number of children, you know. And I like to think that you have to at least maybe know what you’re doing is wrong in order to become so obsessed with accusing Satanists of it, but I’ve always overestimated the American mind when it comes to self-awareness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What advice do you have for people to avoid falling into the same moral panic cycle?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I will say that none of us are above moral panicking, you know, it’s, there’s a, there’s a lot worth panicking about, but I would say just by staying curious, you know. I think that a lot of how the satanic panic spread and had people as credulous as it did is that it really discouraged any kind of asking of questions even about very reasonable concrete things that were seemingly impossible in many cases, but through the magic of Satan, you know. There’s never any physical evidence. Why? Satan, OK.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s so much more likely that it’s the person who’s right there in society, in a, in a position of relative power who’s, who’s doing harm than some perhaps mythical figure off in the shadows somewhere. We just, we have enough to cope with with the, with the people we can already see, you know. And there’s a, there’s a lot of, of, people in power who get to stay in power longer by making it seem like there’s a bigger threat to our safety than they actively are while in Congress or whatever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So are Labubus demonic tools of Satan’s witchcraft? No. Fear mongering over trendy dolls is easy to write off as a silly harmless conspiracy theory, but it’s part of a larger, more pervasive moral panic that incites fear and anger and hate at any perceived threat to the status quo. And like the satanic panic 40 years ago, the so-called threats are more often than not, queer and trans people.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you peel back the layers, the fear of children bringing home demonic plushies isn’t that different from the fear of drag queens reading picture books to children. What we’re seeing play out today isn’t necessarily a new satanic panic. It’s the same tactics preying on the same fear of breaking from tradition. It’s just packaged a little differently and adapted for the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are real consequences to acting on this fear. What starts as seemingly harmless can expand and become extremely destructive. We’re seeing how this fear continues to endanger and disenfranchise queer people today. But we’ve seen how satanic panic spread, and we don’t have to fall for it again and that starts by learning how to spot the signs of it, from silly Labubu conspiracy theories to the videos that prey on our fears and anxieties in order to go viral.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, now let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sarah’s series, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Devil You Know\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, is out now! For me, as someone who loves horror movies, learning about this era of history was fascinating, and it’s out just in time for Halloween. Turns out the real horror was … well, you’ll find out more when you listen. You can find \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Devil You Know\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> wherever you get your podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our theme song and credits are by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our Audio Engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, we want to hear from you! Send us an email at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod, or on TikTok @CloseAllTabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "What do colorful and plush Labubu dolls have in common with Mesopotamian mythology? If you believe some viral TikToks, everything. Recent conspiracy theories have linked the toys to everything from ancient demonic spirits to Satan worship. But behind those ideas flooding online feeds is something older and darker: the return of moral panic. In this episode, host Morgan Sung digs into how a new generation of “satanic panic” has gone digital, from fears of occult rituals in song to online crusades against queer and trans people. Journalist Sarah Marshall, host of the new podcast series The Devil You Know, joins Morgan to help trace how misinformation and moral outrage keep recycling the same fears — just with new villains.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do colorful and plush Labubu dolls have in common with Mesopotamian mythology? If you believe some viral TikToks, everything. Recent conspiracy theories have linked the toys to everything from ancient demonic spirits to Satan worship. But behind those ideas flooding online feeds is something older and darker: the return of moral panic. In this episode, host Morgan Sung digs into how a new generation of “satanic panic” has gone digital, from fears of occult rituals in song to online crusades against queer and trans people. Journalist Sarah Marshall, host of the new podcast series The Devil You Know, joins Morgan to help trace how misinformation and moral outrage keep recycling the same fears — just with new villains. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7641922375\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.remembersarahmarshall.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sarah Marshall\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, journalist and host of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re Wrong About \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://app.magellan.ai/listen_links/Qub2Qv\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CBC Podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://yourewrongabout.buzzsprout.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re Wrong About\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah Marshall\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vox.com/culture/23025505/leftist-groomers-homophobia-satanic-panic-explained\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The right’s moral panic over “grooming” invokes age-old homophobia\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Aja Romano, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vox\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cbc.ca/arts/satan-wants-you-filmmakers-q-a-sean-horlor-steve-j-adams-1.6822213\">The strange origins of the Satanic Panic: How one Canadian book started a worldwide witch hunt\u003c/a> — Leah Collins, \u003ci>CBC Arts\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Host, Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note – this episode includes mentions of sexual abuse, so listen with care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Labubus blew up this year, right? They’re the super trendy, colorful little blind box plushies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The dolls, which are usually listed for $22 are now in some cases fetching hundreds of dollars on resale sites.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But is there something darker hiding behind these collectible plushies? Something demonic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look beyond the little sharp teeth, the little mischievous grin and those little eyes, these names can be linked to ancient spirits.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On top of that, there’s an actual demon named Pezuzu, which sounds very similar to Labubu.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a real demon from Mesopotamian mythology. It’s about plagues, chaos, and fear.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y’all, when I say different toys that give you the hey jeebies or you feel that nudge in your spirit, it is warning you to not open up the door and allow that demonic spirit into your home.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have gone super viral by claiming that they unwittingly bought their child a little boo boo, only for it to spiritually terrorize their family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Others are pulling up Bible verses about Satan’s disguises, which apparently now includes super trendy collectibles with exorbitant resale value.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. That particular verse means that he doesn’t come with horns or fire, but he can come marketed and gift wrapped and trendy just as these dolls do.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of moral fear mongering is not new. Back in the 80s, it was known as the satanic panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Members of satanic or occult groups share common traits such as the access to perform perverted sex acts, such as homosexuality, bisexuality, sodomy, bestiality, and necrophilia. All of these acts are carried out in the name of Satan.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KABC Devil Worship \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When kids will do their, their sacrificing and their animal mutilation, they’ll do it within a pentagram, and allow the blood to drip into some kind of container because they use it for bathing in or drinking.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re seeing the same moral fear mongering take place online. Once, some people thought Furbys were the devil’s toy. Now it’s Labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Journalist Sarah Marshall has been trying to understand why these cycles keep repeating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest, Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Sarah Marshall. I host a podcast called You’re Wrong About\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about misremembered history.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And now she has a new show called The Devil You Know. It’s a CBC podcast miniseries about the satanic panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, do you think Labubus are demonic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it depends on how you use the word demonic. I think one of the questions that I try to look at in the show and also want us all to look at in this time of rolling satanic panics is like, what are people using the words Satan to mean?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because there’s a good solid slice of that pie chart, I think throughout history is anything that we don’t like and want to vilify as strongly and as quickly as we possibly can.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so at the time I was first learning about this, it felt like something the country hadn’t reckoned with yet, and it was very shocking to me, and feels much less shocking now because we’re doing it again after all this time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sarah’s new miniseries got me thinking about what satanic panic looks like in the digital age, beyond Labubu conspiracy theories. As somewhat of an expert in this particular moment in history, Sarah is going to explain how satanic panic spread so quickly. And what to look out for to avoid falling for it again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand the way fear mongering spreads online and targets innocent people, we have to go back in time by opening a new tab: What was the satanic panic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this: The year is 1980. The North American Mall is thriving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the golden age of arcades, VCRs are the hot new thing, and there’s big hair and acid washed jeans. Oh, and seems like Satan is lurking around every corner, because a rapidly spreading fear is taking hold of North America, that satanic cults are indoctrinating and ritually abusing children.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a bunch of kind of roots to that phenomenon, but a really big moment is the publication of a book in 1980 called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michelle Remembers,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where a woman goes through what I have always imagined to be hypnotherapy. I have no confirmation of this, but she ends up in some kind of trance-like state that her therapist puts her in. And he develops the idea very quickly that she has been abused by a satanic coven.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ultimately, the story ends up being a very sensational bestseller, and then it’s treated as a textbook by police and by therapists and so on who are learning how to recognize child abuse and who are told that satanic abuse is the kind they should really be looking for and things really take off from there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like you said, there are these major cultural flashpoints that sparked this massive panic. There was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michelle Remembers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and then there’s the McMartin preschool trial, which is this highly publicized case investigating claims of child sexual abuse in the 80s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Newsclip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The allegations went beyond sexual molestation. They were tales of satanic rites, of pornographic pictures, of the mutilation of animals to frighten the children into silence.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But from the beginning, the defendants in the case, the teachers, have insisted that they were the victims of a latter day witch hunt.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then throughout the series, you also connect the spread of satanic panic to the progressive direction that culture was moving in. How did marginalized groups gaining rights suddenly lead to satanic panic? Like, what’s the bigger cultural context here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, ironically, so much of this appears actually to be a backlash to the idea of people getting out from under the thumb of some of the more dangerous aspects of American Christianity, you know, and this idea of women’s liberation is a very recent phenomenon. We’ve successfully struck down the ERA in the United States, of course, but it was still, still a real concern as the 80s started that women might get real rights at some point.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By ERA, Sarah’s talking about the Equal Rights Amendment, a proposed amendment to prohibit sex-based discrimination.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was passed by Congress in 1972, but then it was sent to the states to be ratified. Religious groups and conservatives stalled the process.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gay liberation is also a movement that’s underway, and so I think it’s always pretty easy to sell to people the idea, like, wouldn’t it be nice if you didn’t have to accept your kid as who they were? Wouldn’t it be great if you could just say that the Satanists were making them do that? You know, I think that’s a big part of the sales point for this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That explains some of the cultural context.The media landscape also played a huge part in fueling satanic panic. In 1987, the fairness doctrine ended.That was the FCC policy that required broadcasters to present different perspectives when reporting on any issues of public importance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When the fairness doctrine ended, local TV stations went all out with sensationalized reporting and pretty much no fact checking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of them is that historically, you know, to my understanding, if you’re, if you’re working in media really at any level locally or nationally, you have been allowed to say, well, the police said this, so that’s probably true, you know, like only very recently has it become, I think, to any degree normalized to even early on in the conversation, be like, well, the police say this, but they’re just one of many sources, you know, by, by American journalism for quite a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was an area in Ohio where law enforcement wasted an astounding amount of money searching for the mass grave of satanic sacrifices that they believe just had to be there because somebody had found a little piece of red thread hanging off a tree limb and was like, well, that’s got to be Satanists.Who else could, no non-Satanist could put thread in a tree like this. And there’s, you know, and they didn’t find anything, arguably because there was nothing there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of a horror story about what happens when we give the police too much power and credibility. And also, as you can imagine, and it’s hard in many ways to fault people for this-In…if you’re working in media and you’ve got to try and get your story on air and maybe, you know, you’re trying to advance your career, you’re trying to get places, there is nothing that will make people stay on your channel more than saying satanic sacrifice, you know, it’s just, it’s hard to beat that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, how profitable was the satanic panic machine?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Man, I don’t have numbers in front of me, but I mean, if you look at the kind of media that was on TV throughout the 80s and into the 90s, it just spread like wildfire through, through primetime news and also through daytime TV because this is a time of like many competing talk shows on TV. Oprah was kind of getting her sea legs at this point, and I think every single one of them covered satanic cults at some point in the 80s. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, the author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Satan’s Underground \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was uncovered very thoroughly. As an acknowledged fraudster who once she got tired of pretending to be a satanic abuse survivor, started pretending to be a Holocaust survivor. Um, and so it also became over time like really fertile ground for con artists. So it’s just there’s kind of something for everyone in this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are pure of heart, it gives you something really important to put your energy behind and if you just want to scam people or get attention, you can also do that. And if you want to scare adults, you can paint a pentagram on something you can have that as well, and boy did they freak out when they saw those.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Satanic panic often targeted people who didn’t fit into society’s mold, who didn’t abide by traditional values. They weren’t into the occults, they were just different. And more often than not, the targets of satanic panic were queer, like in the case of the San Antonio Four. That was a group of four friends who were all openly lesbian in Texas in the mid-90s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the women hosted her two nieces for a weeklong visit in 1994.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The nieces, who were 7 and 9 at the time, accused the group of sexually abusing them as part of a satanic ritual. The ensuing media frenzy and the prosecutors portrayed the group as a perverse lesbian cult, indoctrinating and sacrificing little girls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The women were convicted and spent nearly 15 years in prison before one of the nieces recanted her testimony. She admitted that she had been coached into accusing her aunt and her friends because her family was upset that her aunt was a lesbian. Satanic panic was laced with homophobia from the start, and that was true in the case of the San Antonio Four.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, at the core of this case, we have this, to me, just so intensely bittersweet story of these four young women who are able to kind of create a safe home for each other and their children and who were accused of organized and ritualistic child abuse by a male family member who had a grudge against one of these young women for resisting his advances, you know. And so I think one of the things it shows is that by the 1990s, when this case took place, and into the 2000s, but when all this began, you could argue that, some men might have figured out that accusing a woman who got in your way or who didn’t do what you wanted her to, especially a queer woman, of child abuse or ritualistic abuse or satanism, that that was maybe going to be very useful to you, because we had created through the satanic panic, this idea that if you were queer, you are much more likely to be one of these Satanists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um and again, that was also a way for mainstream culture to Pretend to not notice that the majority of people committing child sexual abuse are men who the child knows already. We had to sort of figure out an opposite direction to put our energy in so we could keep ignoring the real problem, I think, in some ways. And so it’s just It becomes a very useful myth, and it’s very scary to see that in action.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does any of this sound familiar to you: Scary gay people, grooming and indoctrinating children?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[News Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics are tearing into a drag story time for toddlers held at a public library.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[News Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The library told a local news site that there wasn’t any sexualized content planned for this drag storytime.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We don’t always call it the satanic panic today, but this moral fear mongering and backlash against marginalized communities isn’t all that different. We’ll dive into that after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The San Antonio 4 case started just before I was born, and the openly lesbian women who were wrongfully accused and convicted of satanic ritual abuse, weren’t exonerated until I was in my 20s. In pop culture, satanic panic seems like an era of cultural history that happened decades ago, before it was neatly wrapped up and put to rest. But in reality, echoes of satanic panic still exist today, and thanks to the internet, that fear mongering is more insidious than ever. Let’s talk about what it looks like in a new tab: The new satanic panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Did satanic panic ever really die out?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a time when I would have said it did, and now I’m like, no, yeah, it’s still there. It’s like when you go camping and they’re like, please dowse your campfires. Please just pour so much water on them and stare at them for a long time. And sometimes, you know, the American legal system is like, I think that’s fine, let’s just go home. And then it just sort of like just keeps smoldering away. And I think that nothing has been more helpful in its desire to to spread and grow and become as big as it once was, than the Trump administration, as, as you might imagine. Surprise!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let’s cover the satanic panic of today. I mean, there’s obviously the conservative backlash to provocative art, like, I’m thinking of Cynthia Erivo playing Jesus and Jesus Christ Superstar, and then it goes a little further where people were convinced that Lady Gaga’s Coachella performance, which had like occult references and biblical imagery.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lady Gaga has been blaspheming Jesus for basically her entire career.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lady Gaga is a practicing witch and has been very open about the spell that she is casting and the hex that she is casting in her song Abracadabra.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People genuinely thought that was a satanic ritual, but moral panics aren’t always as overt as that. I mean, they’re not, oh my God, this thing is demonic, this labubu equals Pazuzu kind of situation. What are the more subtle moral panics you’ve seen recently?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of them that seems, and this is my personal diagnosis of a moral panic, or kind of an aspect of our satanic panic of today, because the anxiety parents feel over trans kids in school sports, which is something that I, you know, personally believe politicians whipped up out of really the clear blue sky in order to give them something to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this idea that your child is somehow more in danger from another child on their soccer team than they are from, again, the adult men in the world generally who they already know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s so interesting that we always have the search for theoretical Satanists who are always just kind of right out of reach when megalomaniacal white men have always been right there, front and center.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, in the series, you dive into this concept of moral entrepreneurship. What is that? And how does that connect to the kind of more insidious, quieter moral panic that we’re seeing today, that isn’t strictly like, look at Satan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, you know, a classic example that many of us have probably seen at this point is one of these like very cheesy 80s, how to spot Satanism in your community, you know, law enforcement training videos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Law Enforcement Guide to Satanic Cults\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In satanic occultism, that which is good is bad and that which is bad is good, and as you view this learning and educational tape, pay attention to notice the reverse of everything that is normal becoming abnormal.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think one of the things the satanic panic did that I think we’re seeing today and what pops to mind for me is, you know, some of the really fraudulent businesses that have been built around our fear of human trafficking and sort of creating in people the idea that human trafficking, you know, and which in reality is about wage theft and about undocumented workers, you know, being enslaved essentially, and that’s typically how it, I think happens statistically most often. But which is reinvented into a theory that, like, 37 year old white women such as myself are going to get kidnapped at Michael’s, you know, and, and be put on a slave ship, which is something white women love to think about ourselves inexplicably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think that there’s, there’s this idea in the 80s satanic panic and that we’re very much seeing today that it’s so nice to be able to get rich and be the ultimate hero protecting women and children from violence and Satanism. At the same time, it offers what feels like a virtuous heroic way to make so much money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, speaking of those anti-trafficking videos or those like warning, there’s a creepy guy in the Michael’s parking lot stalking women. Like I, I always watch so many of those and like I, it gets to the end, you know, they’re showing all the different ways to protect yourself against these scary faceless people, and it gets to the end and I’m like, oh, it was an ad. You’re selling me, you’re selling me a product to supposedly protect myself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen those too, yes, and that’s so depressing that they, yeah, that there’s a real, real push to commodify women’s fear. And yeah, and it’s always like if if you come back to your car and someone’s taped a banana to the door, never eat that banana, it’s like, well, I could have known that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So how do moral panic spread today? What goes into feeding them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, things were volatile enough in the 80s when we had at the time, this what felt very instantaneous form of spread of information through cable news and through magazines and papers and and things like that. And now, of course, I mean, our, the lifespan of all of our trends is like 20 minutes, you know, and so we, the way that misinformation can spread around the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it feels to me like there’s some kind of unwritten law that misinformation must always be faster than information. And I don’t know why, but there is, there is the adage that, you know, a lie can spread around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. And now that time is, is even shorter, I would say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think it’s, you know, just in social media, whether people are attempting to tell the truth or not, there’s a real bias towards what we know will get people’s attention, and, you know, if it bleeds it leads famously. And if it bleeds from a little Satanist dagger, then then that’s even better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think to me, one of the big problems, and this does feel very different from the satanic panic of the 80s, is that we now exist in our very own little media worlds most of the time, you know. It’s one of the things that’s so unsettling about the satanic panic of the 80s, is that everybody was watching the same nightly news and hearing the same stories, but I think, currently it worries me even more that today you have, you know, people walking around in their very own pockets of information and not even having to consume the same media as each other. So if I want to get really deep into a conspiracy theory, I can, and I don’t have to see anything that’s critical of it necessarily. And the sort of the way that people can shield themselves from information today, I don’t like it. I don’t like that part.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, we really are just all in our own little bubbles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and I think that, you know, one of the things, probably the most meaningful thing that helps us to realize that we’re not the only person who exists in the world is not what we consume, but how we interact with each other. And that feels like something that a lot of people have to put real effort in trying to just be around other human beings. Um, and I guess that’s the promise of Satanism too, you know, they’re just, they’re like always getting large groups of people together to do a hobby. It’s really very impressive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Pickleball really is just Satanism. That’ll be the new danger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the takeaway from this conversation. Yeah, look, anything that people adopt that quickly, I do feel a little suspicious about. I got to be honest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So queer people are still largely the target of these moral panic campaigns, particularly trans people. And back then the panic was over children and satanic ritual abuse cults, and now it’s over children who have access to gender affirming care. What Mechanisms are being rehashed here, like, what nachos are being reheated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God, not very bad nachos, just stay away from the nachos. But I, I mean, I think that what’s, what’s kind of interesting is that in many ways we’ve cut out the middle man and taught people not to fear for their child, but just to fear their child, you know, and to feel that, if your child starts living as as their identity tells them to, in terms of gender or in terms of any aspect of belief, questioning your belief system, then they become your enemy, it seems like in a lot of the rhetoric that we’re seeing today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this idea that your child who you love, that that love you feel for them is allowed culturally and really encouraged, I think at this point to become weaponized, into that same amount of anger if they don’t become the person that you’re trying to mold them into. That to me is so scary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like to think that some of these people know that what they’re doing is wrong, because like the the degree of child abuse sanctioned by some Christian religious authorities in this country has been absolutely shocking, puts, you know, the satanic panic stories to shame and it’s led to the death of like an appreciable number of children, you know. And I like to think that you have to at least maybe know what you’re doing is wrong in order to become so obsessed with accusing Satanists of it, but I’ve always overestimated the American mind when it comes to self-awareness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What advice do you have for people to avoid falling into the same moral panic cycle?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Marshall: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I will say that none of us are above moral panicking, you know, it’s, there’s a, there’s a lot worth panicking about, but I would say just by staying curious, you know. I think that a lot of how the satanic panic spread and had people as credulous as it did is that it really discouraged any kind of asking of questions even about very reasonable concrete things that were seemingly impossible in many cases, but through the magic of Satan, you know. There’s never any physical evidence. Why? Satan, OK.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s so much more likely that it’s the person who’s right there in society, in a, in a position of relative power who’s, who’s doing harm than some perhaps mythical figure off in the shadows somewhere. We just, we have enough to cope with with the, with the people we can already see, you know. And there’s a, there’s a lot of, of, people in power who get to stay in power longer by making it seem like there’s a bigger threat to our safety than they actively are while in Congress or whatever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So are Labubus demonic tools of Satan’s witchcraft? No. Fear mongering over trendy dolls is easy to write off as a silly harmless conspiracy theory, but it’s part of a larger, more pervasive moral panic that incites fear and anger and hate at any perceived threat to the status quo. And like the satanic panic 40 years ago, the so-called threats are more often than not, queer and trans people.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you peel back the layers, the fear of children bringing home demonic plushies isn’t that different from the fear of drag queens reading picture books to children. What we’re seeing play out today isn’t necessarily a new satanic panic. It’s the same tactics preying on the same fear of breaking from tradition. It’s just packaged a little differently and adapted for the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are real consequences to acting on this fear. What starts as seemingly harmless can expand and become extremely destructive. We’re seeing how this fear continues to endanger and disenfranchise queer people today. But we’ve seen how satanic panic spread, and we don’t have to fall for it again and that starts by learning how to spot the signs of it, from silly Labubu conspiracy theories to the videos that prey on our fears and anxieties in order to go viral.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, now let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sarah’s series, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Devil You Know\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, is out now! For me, as someone who loves horror movies, learning about this era of history was fascinating, and it’s out just in time for Halloween. Turns out the real horror was … well, you’ll find out more when you listen. You can find \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Devil You Know\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> wherever you get your podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our theme song and credits are by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our Audio Engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, we want to hear from you! Send us an email at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod, or on TikTok @CloseAllTabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "beyond-the-ai-hype-machine",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When ChatGPT launched in 2022, it kicked off what some have called the “AI hype machine” — a frenzy of promotion and investment that has sent some tech companies’ valuations soaring to record heights. Meanwhile, computational linguist Emily M. Bender and AI researcher and sociologist Alex Hanna have proudly worn the titles of “AI hype busters,” critiquing the industry’s loftiest claims and pointing out the real-world harms behind this wave of excitement. What began as a satirical podcast is now a book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In this episode, Alex and Emily explain why the very term “AI” is misleading, how AI boosters and doomers are really flip sides of the same coin, and why we should question the AI inevitability narrative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5696998106\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/emilymbender.bsky.social\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Bender\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of linguistics the University of Washington\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/alexhanna.bsky.social\">Alex Hanna\u003c/a>, director of research at the Distributed AI Research Institute\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con: How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dair-institute.org/maiht3k/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Mystery AI Hype Theater 3000 Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/ai-hurts-consumers-and-workers-and-isnt-intelligent/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“AI” Hurts Consumers and Workers — and Isn’t Intelligent\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tech Policy Press\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/on-the-very-real-dangers-of-the-artificial-intelligence-hype-machine/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the Very Real Dangers of the Artificial Intelligence Hype Machine: Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna Explore AI History, the Cold War, and a Fatally Overhyped Idea \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Emily M. Bender, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LitHub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/sora-2-content-violation-guardrails-error/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Crashing Out Over Sora 2’s New Guardrails\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Samantha Cole, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/sora-2-financial-problem\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sora 2 Has a Huge Financial Problem\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Victor Tangermann, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Futurism\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James O’Donnell and Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, OpenAI launched an app, Sora. It’s a vertical video social platform, similar to TikTok, except all the videos are generated by the company’s AI image generator, Sora 2. Within days, the app was a copyright infringement nightmare. There were videos of SpongeBob cooking meth, unsanctioned Rick and Morty ads for crypto startups, and many, many videos of open AI CEO Sam Altman doing depraved things to copyrighted characters. Like the one where he brutally barbecues and carves up Pikachu. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[AI CEO Sam Altman] Pikachu on the grill here. It’s already got a beautiful char and it smells like somebody plugged in a chicken. Let’s give it a flip. I’m gonna carve it into some thick steaks. Look at that. Crust on the outside, pink and juicy in the middle. Cheers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these 10 second videos require an immense amount of computing power, which is extremely costly to maintain. In a blog post, Sam Altman admitted that the company still needs to figure out how to make money off of Sora. He wrote, “People are generating much more than we expected per user, and a lot of videos are being generated for very small audiences.” Facing heat from copyright holders like Disney and Nintendo, Altman also announced extra guardrails for the app to curb infringement. Now, users are complaining that everything they try to generate using Sora 2 gets flagged as a violation of the copyrighted content policy. They’re already getting bored of the app. This whole cycle has been described as the AI hype machine. Big investments are made based on big promises of innovation, disruption, revolution. This hype fuels more investment, which, in turn, fuels the hype. The cycle continues when a new product launches. Meta, for example, launched its own AI social video app, called Vibes, last month too, which was quickly forgotten about when Sora launched. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI hype is effectively premised on fear of missing out. It is the fear that if you don’t get onto this new technology, you are going to be left behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Alex Hanna, a sociologist and the Director of Research at the Distributed AI Research Institute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re a corporate manager, you’re going to have your competitors just leave you in the dust. If you are a teacher, you are doing a disservice to your students by not preparing them for the job market of the future. If you were a student, you were going to miss out on all the skills and all your classmates are going to be outperforming you. And as a worker, you will be doing things the old way, the analog way, and everyone is going to be outpacing you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and her co-author, Emily M. Bender, recently published a book, The AI Con, How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want. Emily runs the computational linguistics program at the University of Washington. This is a field of study that combines human language with machine learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I often get asked the question, well aren’t you worried that students are going to get left behind? Etc. And my answer to that is often, where is everybody going? Like, this metaphor of left behind suggests that people are running off into some brilliant future. I just don’t see it, you know, setting aside the fact that the technology doesn’t do what it’s being sold to do, but that is overhyped and over promised. The idea that we’d be better off with instead of interacting with people at all stages, interacting with screens that that’s just not the future that I want. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re talking about the AI hype machine, when it started, how it’s fed, and why a growing corner of critics say they see right through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, like we always do, we’re starting by opening a new tab. What is P-Doom? In their book, The AI Con, Alex and Emily talk about these two groups. There are the AI boosters, the people who are optimistic that AI will pave the way to our utopian future. Then there are the AI doomers: the people that catastrophize, and believe that AI progress will usher in an era of societal collapse and human extinction. It’s very Matrix. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from the film “The Matrix] The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But before we break this down further, let’s start by defining our terms. Here’s Emily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artificial intelligence does not refer to a coherent set of technologies, and it has throughout its history, since it was coined by John McCarthy in 1955, basically been used to sell this idea of some magic do-everything technology in order to get money. Initially, it was research funding and then DOD money and now a lot of it is venture capital money. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and the way that this has proliferated in the modern day is that so many things get called AI. So that could be automated decision-making systems used for determining whether someone gets social services. And so that gets looped in, and then we also get recommendation systems, things like the TikTok algorithm, the Instagram Reels algorithm, pick your short-form video. But then, it’s really manifest in these large language models and diffusion models that are looped into the category of generative AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start this book from this one moment in 2023, when Chuck Schumer at the time, the Senate majority leader, held a series of forums around AI. Can you take us back to that moment and like set the scene for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, late 2023, Chuck Schumer is convening the eighth of total nine Senate Insight forums around AI, and he asks folks, this is very weird, he asks, “what is folks’ probability of doom?” And this is abbreviated as P(doom), and for this instance, it’s an audio platform, that is P, open parentheses, doom, closed parentheses. And he also asked, “what people’s pee hope is.” So this means what is your probability that there’s going to be some kind of a doom scenario, in which through, you know, hook or crook, some kind of thing called AI is going to outperform or outsmart humans and take over and lead to human extinction. And in the book, we start and we say, well, this is the wrong question. But also if you’re looking at harms that are happening in the here and now, there are many that exist, whether that be deep fake porn being made out of non-consensual adults and children, the use of automated decision-making and weapons targeting, especially in Gaza, and then we also talk about students having their exams effectively being judged by these automated tools. So talking about P(doom) in this register is asking the wrong question and focusing on the wrong things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But oftentimes it looks like the doomers, the people with a high P(doom) value, the people who take that question seriously in the first place, um, and the boosters, the people who say this is gonna solve all our problems, are like the opposite ends of a spectrum. And that is how these people present themselves, it is how the media often presents what’s going on, and it is very misleading. I think that one of the points that we make is that doomerism is another kind of AI hype, because it’s saying, our system is very powerful. It’s so powerful, it’s going to kill us all, is a way of saying it’s very powerful, but also we make the point that the doomers and the boosters are two sides of the same coin. And it, I think, becomes very clear if you look at it this way, which is to say, the doomers say, “AI is a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it’s gonna kill us all.” And the boosters say, “AI’s a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it is gonna solve all of our problems.” And it’s pretty easy to see these are the same position with just a different twist at the end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the funny thing about this boosterism, doomerism dichotomy is that these are many of the same people or they run in many of same circles. So, you know, there was this document that was put out called AI 2027, in which it ends with humanity dying and the kind of choose your own adventure. There’s only two endings here. The choose your own adventure and one of them, you know everyone dies. But the lead author of this works at OpenAI. And there’s many such cases of people who are working on quote unquote, “AI alignment”, who are in these industries. So, it’s again not as if they’re against the building of AI, or we should just say no, it’s actually a very narrow segment of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You described this industry as the AI hype machine, the modern AI hype machine, what does it look like? I mean, who are the players? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the players are many of the big tech players that we know. So Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Meta, but with some new entrants, OpenAI being the most significant one. Um, and along with OpenAI, a few offshoots, so Anthropic is kind of the most notable one. And then the company that’s creating the shovels for the gold rush, so that’s your Nvidia, and then your Taiwanese semiconductor manufacturing company, abbreviated as TSMC. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to say that we see AI hype not just originating from those big players, like that is a large source of it. Also we hear over and over and again about people working in various businesses being told by their higher ups that they have to try this new AI thing. And so there’s this sort of secondary promulgation of hype that comes from middle management and up that have been sold on the idea that this is going to, you know, really increase productivity. And, you know, on the one hand, it’s a very useful excuse for doing layoffs that they may have otherwise already wanted to do, but then on the other hand, some people seem to have really bought into the idea. So they tell the people working for them, you have to spend time figuring out how to make yourself more productive by using these so-called AI tools, because everyone’s telling me that that’s the way of the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the obvious way people are, these players, are feeding into the AI hype machine is by extolling the virtues of AI, or, you know, kind of spreading this very doomerous sci-fi rhetoric. But what other strategies are being used to feed this machine? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one important strategy is what I sometimes call citations to the future. So people will say, yeah, yeah. It’s got problems now, but it’s going to do all of these things. And I think it really is the only technology that we are expected to evaluate based on promises of what it will be doing, right? That car that I just bought only gets, you know, 35 miles to the gallon. But that’s OK, because the later one’s going to get 50. We don’t talk about it that way, except with the so-called AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, citations to the future is one big strategy and another one is anthropomorphizing language, talking about things that have happened as if the computer systems themselves did it of their own volition and autonomously instead of people having used the system to do it or done something in order to build the system. So it’ll be something like, AI needs lots and lots of data. Well, no, people who want to build the system that they’re calling AI are amassing lots and lots of data in order to build them, or AI is thirsty, it needs lots of water, or AI was able to identify, you know, something in a blurry image. It’s like — in no sense, right? \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People used XYZ tool in order do a thing, or in order to build these tools, they are using lots of of water and so on. So this anthropomorphizing language sort of shifts the people out of the frame and hides a bunch of accountability, and at the same time, makes the systems sound cooler than they are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and Emily also pointed out that players in the AI industry push this adoption of AI into our everyday lives by really trying to humanize the product. We’re gonna dive into that in a new tab. First, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab! Are we really just meat machines?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the technology itself, like the way people talk about large language models as AI, um, ChatGPT, Claude, Grok. Many people understand that these models are basically predicting the words that most often go together. But can you break it down further? Like, what’s really going on under the hood there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the first very important lesson is that when we say word, we’re actually talking about two things. We’re talking about the way the word is spelled and pronounced and what it is used to mean. And one thing that makes that hard to keep in mind is that as proficient speakers of the languages we speak, pretty much anytime we encounter the spelling or sound of a word, we are also encountering what the person using it is using it to talk about. And so we always experience the form and meaning together. But a language model, so that the core component of something like Gemini or Grok or Claude or ChatGPT is literally a system for modeling which bits of words go with which other bits of words in whatever the input collection of text was to create that model. And so what we have are models that are very good at putting literally like spellings of parts of words next to each other in a way that looks like something somebody might say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex have come up with a few phrases that illustrate what large language models really are, which also describe the limitations of this tech. We’ve got synthetic text extruding machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The choice of the word extrude is very intentional because it’s a little gross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Racist pile of linear algebra. Spicy autocomplete. And one phrase that really took off, stochastic parrot. Emily coined the phrase in a research paper she co-authored in 2020. Parrots can mimic human speech, but whether they can really comprehend it, that’s dubious. Stochastic comes from probability theory. It means randomly determined. So a stochastic parrot essentially mimics language in a random order and does so convincingly, but it doesn’t understand it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting with OpenAI’s GPT-2 and GPT3, they were using it to create synthetic text. And so one of the things we worried about in that paper is what happens if someone comes across synthetic text and doesn’t know that it was synthetic? What we didn’t realize at the time is that people would be happy to look at synthetic text while knowing that it’s synthetic. That is very surprising to me. And so the phrase stochastic parrots was this attempt to make vivid what’s going on, to help people understand why the output of a language model run to repeatedly answer the question, what’s a likely next word, is not the same thing as text produced by a person or group of people with something to communicate. And what’s happened, it’s been fascinating as a linguist to watch that phrase go out into the world, so for the first little while, it was people referring to the paper, and then it sort of became people talking about, um, that claim that large language models are not understanding, they’re just repeatedly predicting a likely next word. And then it got picked up or interpreted as an insult, which is surprising to me because in order for it to be an insult, the thing that it’s being applied to would have to the kind of thing that could be insulted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then in 2022, Sam Altman tweeted, I am a stochastic parrot and so are you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what happens when Sam Altman picks it up and tweets that is that it is, on the one hand, sort of an attempt to reclaim what is understood as an insult or slur by people in that mindset, but also, and very importantly, it is about minimizing what it is to be human, so that he can claim that the system that he’s built is as good as a person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex say this concept of comparing humans to, essentially, flesh machines is a classic move in the AI hype machine playbook. It’s reducing humanity and what it means to be human to programming, like Eliza in the 60s. Eliza was an early natural language processing program designed to mimic a therapist. Think of it as a great, great, great, grand chatbot of ChatGPT. A lot of people, from academics to government leaders to tech industry giants, bought into the Eliza hype. And that freaked out Eliza’s own creator, Joseph Weizenbaum. In a book he published in the 70s, Weizenbaum warned that machines would never be able to make the same decisions that humans make because they don’t have human empathy. His criticism of AI caused a stir in the research community. And decades later, AI boosters are still making that same claim. That humans and machines aren’t that different. But what does this devaluing of humanity really mean for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it means a lot of things. It really seems to emphasize that there is, kind of, aspects of human behavior that can just be reduced to our observable outputs, right? Humans are just things that output language or output actions, when that’s not true. Humans have a much more vivid internal life. Um, we think about others. Uh, we think about, kind of, co-presence, but it’s more about saying how we’re comparing ourselves to machines that are programmed by people and those people in those institutions have particular types of incentives to make machines that behave as such. So that’s the kind of implications that it has and it also has the implications of other kinds of moves into humanism, dehumanization and what that does and how we treat people and with regards to dignity and propriety of rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you also give concrete examples of where we see this kind of, uh, devaluing of humans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think if we say that humans can be reduced to their outputs, that that leads to lots of problems. And one is we end up saying, you know, the form of, or the words that teachers and students say in the classroom is the learning situation. And so we can replace the teacher with a system for outputting words and then those students will get as much and maybe it’ll be personalized and it’ll better. And that is dehumanizing to teachers clearly and also to students because it removes, you know, everything that is about the student and teacher’s internal life and about their relationship and about their community from the situation. But I think it’s also really important in terms of the workforce more generally, that basically if we say, well, humans like large language models are systems for outputting words, then it’s a very small step to basically saying the whole value of this person is how many words they can output and doing a very, very dehumanizing work environment to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also see this in other domains like the Amazon work floor and the ways that these mini robots flit from place to place and the so-called quote unquote pickers. People on Amazon work warehouses have to pick things and then deliver them. So there’s a lot of implications for that and I think also in seeing the humanity in other folks and how we treat other folks. You know, if they’re merely meat machines, then what does it say about how we view them with respect to, kind of, personal rights and human rights and what kind of rights they should be afforded? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This idea of human beings just being walking meat machines is chilling. It definitely creeped me out. What are the other real world consequences of this thinking? Let’s open a new tab. Who’s really harmed by AI hype? Alex and Emily have said that their goal with writing the AI con is to reduce the harm caused by AI hype. Automation, for example, doesn’t just replace jobs. Healthcare providers are increasingly relying on AI products for medical triage to decide which patients to see first. Free legal representation, a guaranteed right in criminal cases, can be replaced by a lawyer using a chat bot. All of this potentially lowers the quality of these services. And introduces bias into these systems. Artists and other creatives, meanwhile, are struggling to make ends meet as AI generators, sometimes trained on their own work, are used as a cheaper, faster alternative. And then there’s how large language models are disrupting our whole information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a metaphor we use in the book, the idea that information is being output from these models and results in information ecosystem spills, like toxic spills that really can’t be cleaned up. There’s not really a reliable way to detect synthetic text. And so you’re having to deal with and navigate and try to understand whether something on the internet is actually reflective of truth claims that are being made and perhaps researched more deeply by human individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve written that the strongest critiques against AI boosterism come from black, brown, poor, queer, and disabled scholars and activists. Can you talk about some examples of these critiques and why these groups specifically are so uniquely positioned to make them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we wrote about that in the register of thinking about the ways in which systems, in here, I want to say data-driven systems, not just large language models, but even different systems just don’t work for black, brown communities, queer, and trans people, and then people like refugees and people on the move. The kind of pioneering work of Drs. Temnit Gebru and Joy Buolamwini in their paper Gender Shades talks about facial analysis systems, specifically the way that facial analysis systems do very poorly on darker-skinned women and that there’s a huge delta between darker-skinned women and lighter-skinned men. Sasha Costanza-Chock talks about how tools like TSA scanners do very poorly on trans people. Typically flagging genitals as anomalies or chest areas as anomalities, and then the kind of disparities of how systems talk about women. So there’s been a few papers talking about the ways in which different tools, in this case a word embedding space, makes associations between people and occupation. So, man is to doctor, women is to… typically, the completion is nurse, so it makes presuppositions of this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this stuff effectively happens in large-language models [laughter] and happens in image generation models as well. There’s some great research by the Bloomberg data team that shows that if you input something like a nurse, uh, typically or a housekeeper, it outputs a kind of a phenotypically looking darker-skinned woman. If you type in CEO, white man. And so those kinds of elements are the bias element of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ruha Benjamin sums it up really nicely in this beautiful essay called The New Artificial Intelligentsia that appeared in the LA Review of Books in 2024. And she’s talking about these ideas of transhumanism and merging with the machines. She says this zealous desire to transcend humanity ignores the fact that we have not all had the chance to be fully human. My interpretation of what she’s saying is that the people that society does not accord full humanity to have a very different experience of technology, both in the ways, as Alex is saying, it’s being used on them, in the ways that doesn’t work well for them and just in the way that it intrudes on their life. And so people who have the privilege of not experiencing any of that tend to be less sensitized to what’s going on and to have a less informed perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this less-informed perspective encourages AI boosters, who continue to fuel the hype machine. This means investing in and launching new products at a breakneck pace, often overlooking the real-world impact. The MIT Technology Review recently reported that generating one 5-second AI video uses about 3.4 million joules, the equivalent of running a microwave for over an hour. At scale this amount of energy consumption is devastating for the environment. And running all of this comes at a steep price for AI companies, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like we talked about earlier, OpenAI’s Sora app is proving to be wildly expensive, with more users generating videos than actually watching them. And after the copyright fiasco and subsequent new guardrails, it seems like some initial adopters are already moving on. Can the hype machine sustain this kind of frenzied investment with such limited return? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re opening one last tab. Is the height machine breaking? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think the AI hype bubble is going to burst? I mean, like, are there economic critiques? You’ve heard the social ones, but is there anything pointing to the AI height bubble possibly at least deflating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, the problem is that there’s so much capital expenditure going into building things like data centers, and they’re going into these massive data center build out where, you know, the kind of projections and how much OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and Meta are spending on this all is astronomical. I mean, hundreds of billions of dollars, just some of the largest technological infrastructure projects that we’ve ever seen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, OpenAI again, the company that has the most queries to Chat GPT, people using most of its products, is making revenue on the order of maybe $10 billion a year. So it’s just orders of magnitude less. And the kind of metaphor that’s being used as well, we have to build the railroads first, and then once the rail roads get going, we can put rail cars in them. But that metaphor doesn’t work at all. People are already using the product. And, you know, companies are already saying, we’re not getting a lot of value out of this. You know, there was an, something that was coming out of MIT, which said 95% of companies just haven’t really gained value from quote unquote AI. So what’s happening? This is very bubble shaped, you now, and I don’t know how the story ends, but it’s very alarming that these four to seven companies are propping up the US and world economy right now, so what happens when the bubble deflates or bursts, it’s not going to be good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you said, um, you finished this book in September 2024. The AI industry has only grown since then. What have you learned about the state of the AI hype machine from the reception to your book? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say what I’ve learned the most about is about the resilience of people and the importance of connection and community. So the antidote to the hype is a variety of things, one is ridicule as praxis, as we say in the book, and also solidarity and labor movements, but also just sort of connection. And one form of that connection is that there’s a lot of people who are, who feel isolated in a workplace or a social circle where everyone around them seems just completely gaga for this technology and they’re the odd one out. And so one of the joys of both our podcasts and this book has been to find those people and be found by those people who say, oh, so glad I’m not the only one. And then they can form community with other people who have the same reaction and I think that that is super important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things we grapple a lot just like within Close All Tabs is where to draw the line with AI use, you know. And again, that’s complicated. What is AI? For example, we don’t use ChatGPT, but we use an AI transcription tool for our interviews. Are there conditions under which using large language models, AI tools, are reasonable or justified, appropriate? And then what’s your message to the average listener who maybe uses ChatGPT in their daily but they’re not necessarily AI boosters and not necessarily AI doomers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Um, so to the first question, I would say I never call it an AI transcription tool. I would say automatic transcription, right? And that is a use case where, you know, you want to look at the labor conditions of the people who produced it, where the training data come from. And it’s also a use case where you are well positioned to check the output and see if it’s working well for you, right. You’ve got something that has been recorded, you’ve got an automatically produced transcript, you’re presumably going through and correcting it. And if it is wrong all the time, or if you have one that is particularly bad for non-Anglo names, for example, you might start looking for something that’s better. So that is a case of automation that I think can be okay. You still want to look into who produced it. Are there privacy implications? Can I use this tool without uploading my data to somebody else and so on? But there’s reasonable uses and reasonable ways to produce automatic transcription. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re talking about chat bots of the form of ChatGPT, I don’t see reasonable use cases there. And partially we know that the labor and environmental costs are extraordinarily high, that this is not produced ethically. But even setting that aside, every time you turn to ChatGPT for information, you’re cutting yourself off from important sense-making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the examples I like to use, if you think about an old fashioned search engine that gave you back, you know, the 10 blue links and you’ve got a medical query, what might come back in those links is a link to, you know something like the Mayo Clinic and then your regional university medical center, so in the Bay area, you know UCSF. And you might get a link to Dr. Oz’s page and you might get a link to a discussion forum where people with the same medical questions are talking to each other. And you can then look at those and understand the information that’s there based on what you know about the Mayo Clinic and UCSF and Dr. Oz and discussion forums. But that also helps you continue to update what you know, about those kinds of sites. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whereas if you asked a chatbot and you got back something that was just sort of some paper mache made up out of some combination of what’s in those sites, you not only don’t know how to contextualize what you’ve seen, but you’re also cut off from ability to continue to understand the information environment. And then very importantly, if you think about that discussion forum, any given, you know, sentence from that discussion forum interpreted as information, you’re going to want to take with a big grain of salt. But the chance to connect with people who are going through the same medical journey is priceless. And there’s a, the scholar Chris Gilliard describes these technologies as technologies of isolation. And I think it’s really important to think about anytime you might turn to a chat bot- what would you have done three years ago? What would you have done when ChatGPT was not in your world and what are you missing out on by not doing that now? The connections that you would make with people, the ongoing maintenance of relationships, the building of community, the deeper sense of what’s going on in the world around you, all of these are precious and I think not to be thrown away for the semblance of convenience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I think the final thing that I would say is look out for, identify, and reject the inevitability narrative. So the tech companies would like us to believe that AI is the future, it’s definitely coming. Even if you don’t like it, you have to resign yourself to it. And you’ll get people saying, well, it’s here to stay, we have to learn what to live with it. And I refuse that. I say that is also a bid to steal our agency because the future is not written. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are all my questions. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a pleasure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who’s KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod, or TikTok at Close All Tabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When ChatGPT launched in 2022, it kicked off what some have called the “AI hype machine” — a frenzy of promotion and investment that has sent some tech companies’ valuations soaring to record heights. Meanwhile, computational linguist Emily M. Bender and AI researcher and sociologist Alex Hanna have proudly worn the titles of “AI hype busters,” critiquing the industry’s loftiest claims and pointing out the real-world harms behind this wave of excitement. What began as a satirical podcast is now a book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In this episode, Alex and Emily explain why the very term “AI” is misleading, how AI boosters and doomers are really flip sides of the same coin, and why we should question the AI inevitability narrative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5696998106\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/emilymbender.bsky.social\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Bender\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of linguistics the University of Washington\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/alexhanna.bsky.social\">Alex Hanna\u003c/a>, director of research at the Distributed AI Research Institute\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con: How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dair-institute.org/maiht3k/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Mystery AI Hype Theater 3000 Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/ai-hurts-consumers-and-workers-and-isnt-intelligent/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“AI” Hurts Consumers and Workers — and Isn’t Intelligent\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tech Policy Press\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/on-the-very-real-dangers-of-the-artificial-intelligence-hype-machine/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the Very Real Dangers of the Artificial Intelligence Hype Machine: Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna Explore AI History, the Cold War, and a Fatally Overhyped Idea \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Emily M. Bender, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LitHub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/sora-2-content-violation-guardrails-error/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Crashing Out Over Sora 2’s New Guardrails\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Samantha Cole, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/sora-2-financial-problem\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sora 2 Has a Huge Financial Problem\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Victor Tangermann, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Futurism\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James O’Donnell and Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, OpenAI launched an app, Sora. It’s a vertical video social platform, similar to TikTok, except all the videos are generated by the company’s AI image generator, Sora 2. Within days, the app was a copyright infringement nightmare. There were videos of SpongeBob cooking meth, unsanctioned Rick and Morty ads for crypto startups, and many, many videos of open AI CEO Sam Altman doing depraved things to copyrighted characters. Like the one where he brutally barbecues and carves up Pikachu. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[AI CEO Sam Altman] Pikachu on the grill here. It’s already got a beautiful char and it smells like somebody plugged in a chicken. Let’s give it a flip. I’m gonna carve it into some thick steaks. Look at that. Crust on the outside, pink and juicy in the middle. Cheers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these 10 second videos require an immense amount of computing power, which is extremely costly to maintain. In a blog post, Sam Altman admitted that the company still needs to figure out how to make money off of Sora. He wrote, “People are generating much more than we expected per user, and a lot of videos are being generated for very small audiences.” Facing heat from copyright holders like Disney and Nintendo, Altman also announced extra guardrails for the app to curb infringement. Now, users are complaining that everything they try to generate using Sora 2 gets flagged as a violation of the copyrighted content policy. They’re already getting bored of the app. This whole cycle has been described as the AI hype machine. Big investments are made based on big promises of innovation, disruption, revolution. This hype fuels more investment, which, in turn, fuels the hype. The cycle continues when a new product launches. Meta, for example, launched its own AI social video app, called Vibes, last month too, which was quickly forgotten about when Sora launched. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI hype is effectively premised on fear of missing out. It is the fear that if you don’t get onto this new technology, you are going to be left behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Alex Hanna, a sociologist and the Director of Research at the Distributed AI Research Institute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re a corporate manager, you’re going to have your competitors just leave you in the dust. If you are a teacher, you are doing a disservice to your students by not preparing them for the job market of the future. If you were a student, you were going to miss out on all the skills and all your classmates are going to be outperforming you. And as a worker, you will be doing things the old way, the analog way, and everyone is going to be outpacing you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and her co-author, Emily M. Bender, recently published a book, The AI Con, How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want. Emily runs the computational linguistics program at the University of Washington. This is a field of study that combines human language with machine learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I often get asked the question, well aren’t you worried that students are going to get left behind? Etc. And my answer to that is often, where is everybody going? Like, this metaphor of left behind suggests that people are running off into some brilliant future. I just don’t see it, you know, setting aside the fact that the technology doesn’t do what it’s being sold to do, but that is overhyped and over promised. The idea that we’d be better off with instead of interacting with people at all stages, interacting with screens that that’s just not the future that I want. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re talking about the AI hype machine, when it started, how it’s fed, and why a growing corner of critics say they see right through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, like we always do, we’re starting by opening a new tab. What is P-Doom? In their book, The AI Con, Alex and Emily talk about these two groups. There are the AI boosters, the people who are optimistic that AI will pave the way to our utopian future. Then there are the AI doomers: the people that catastrophize, and believe that AI progress will usher in an era of societal collapse and human extinction. It’s very Matrix. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from the film “The Matrix] The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But before we break this down further, let’s start by defining our terms. Here’s Emily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artificial intelligence does not refer to a coherent set of technologies, and it has throughout its history, since it was coined by John McCarthy in 1955, basically been used to sell this idea of some magic do-everything technology in order to get money. Initially, it was research funding and then DOD money and now a lot of it is venture capital money. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and the way that this has proliferated in the modern day is that so many things get called AI. So that could be automated decision-making systems used for determining whether someone gets social services. And so that gets looped in, and then we also get recommendation systems, things like the TikTok algorithm, the Instagram Reels algorithm, pick your short-form video. But then, it’s really manifest in these large language models and diffusion models that are looped into the category of generative AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start this book from this one moment in 2023, when Chuck Schumer at the time, the Senate majority leader, held a series of forums around AI. Can you take us back to that moment and like set the scene for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, late 2023, Chuck Schumer is convening the eighth of total nine Senate Insight forums around AI, and he asks folks, this is very weird, he asks, “what is folks’ probability of doom?” And this is abbreviated as P(doom), and for this instance, it’s an audio platform, that is P, open parentheses, doom, closed parentheses. And he also asked, “what people’s pee hope is.” So this means what is your probability that there’s going to be some kind of a doom scenario, in which through, you know, hook or crook, some kind of thing called AI is going to outperform or outsmart humans and take over and lead to human extinction. And in the book, we start and we say, well, this is the wrong question. But also if you’re looking at harms that are happening in the here and now, there are many that exist, whether that be deep fake porn being made out of non-consensual adults and children, the use of automated decision-making and weapons targeting, especially in Gaza, and then we also talk about students having their exams effectively being judged by these automated tools. So talking about P(doom) in this register is asking the wrong question and focusing on the wrong things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But oftentimes it looks like the doomers, the people with a high P(doom) value, the people who take that question seriously in the first place, um, and the boosters, the people who say this is gonna solve all our problems, are like the opposite ends of a spectrum. And that is how these people present themselves, it is how the media often presents what’s going on, and it is very misleading. I think that one of the points that we make is that doomerism is another kind of AI hype, because it’s saying, our system is very powerful. It’s so powerful, it’s going to kill us all, is a way of saying it’s very powerful, but also we make the point that the doomers and the boosters are two sides of the same coin. And it, I think, becomes very clear if you look at it this way, which is to say, the doomers say, “AI is a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it’s gonna kill us all.” And the boosters say, “AI’s a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it is gonna solve all of our problems.” And it’s pretty easy to see these are the same position with just a different twist at the end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the funny thing about this boosterism, doomerism dichotomy is that these are many of the same people or they run in many of same circles. So, you know, there was this document that was put out called AI 2027, in which it ends with humanity dying and the kind of choose your own adventure. There’s only two endings here. The choose your own adventure and one of them, you know everyone dies. But the lead author of this works at OpenAI. And there’s many such cases of people who are working on quote unquote, “AI alignment”, who are in these industries. So, it’s again not as if they’re against the building of AI, or we should just say no, it’s actually a very narrow segment of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You described this industry as the AI hype machine, the modern AI hype machine, what does it look like? I mean, who are the players? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the players are many of the big tech players that we know. So Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Meta, but with some new entrants, OpenAI being the most significant one. Um, and along with OpenAI, a few offshoots, so Anthropic is kind of the most notable one. And then the company that’s creating the shovels for the gold rush, so that’s your Nvidia, and then your Taiwanese semiconductor manufacturing company, abbreviated as TSMC. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to say that we see AI hype not just originating from those big players, like that is a large source of it. Also we hear over and over and again about people working in various businesses being told by their higher ups that they have to try this new AI thing. And so there’s this sort of secondary promulgation of hype that comes from middle management and up that have been sold on the idea that this is going to, you know, really increase productivity. And, you know, on the one hand, it’s a very useful excuse for doing layoffs that they may have otherwise already wanted to do, but then on the other hand, some people seem to have really bought into the idea. So they tell the people working for them, you have to spend time figuring out how to make yourself more productive by using these so-called AI tools, because everyone’s telling me that that’s the way of the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the obvious way people are, these players, are feeding into the AI hype machine is by extolling the virtues of AI, or, you know, kind of spreading this very doomerous sci-fi rhetoric. But what other strategies are being used to feed this machine? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one important strategy is what I sometimes call citations to the future. So people will say, yeah, yeah. It’s got problems now, but it’s going to do all of these things. And I think it really is the only technology that we are expected to evaluate based on promises of what it will be doing, right? That car that I just bought only gets, you know, 35 miles to the gallon. But that’s OK, because the later one’s going to get 50. We don’t talk about it that way, except with the so-called AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, citations to the future is one big strategy and another one is anthropomorphizing language, talking about things that have happened as if the computer systems themselves did it of their own volition and autonomously instead of people having used the system to do it or done something in order to build the system. So it’ll be something like, AI needs lots and lots of data. Well, no, people who want to build the system that they’re calling AI are amassing lots and lots of data in order to build them, or AI is thirsty, it needs lots of water, or AI was able to identify, you know, something in a blurry image. It’s like — in no sense, right? \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People used XYZ tool in order do a thing, or in order to build these tools, they are using lots of of water and so on. So this anthropomorphizing language sort of shifts the people out of the frame and hides a bunch of accountability, and at the same time, makes the systems sound cooler than they are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and Emily also pointed out that players in the AI industry push this adoption of AI into our everyday lives by really trying to humanize the product. We’re gonna dive into that in a new tab. First, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab! Are we really just meat machines?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the technology itself, like the way people talk about large language models as AI, um, ChatGPT, Claude, Grok. Many people understand that these models are basically predicting the words that most often go together. But can you break it down further? Like, what’s really going on under the hood there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the first very important lesson is that when we say word, we’re actually talking about two things. We’re talking about the way the word is spelled and pronounced and what it is used to mean. And one thing that makes that hard to keep in mind is that as proficient speakers of the languages we speak, pretty much anytime we encounter the spelling or sound of a word, we are also encountering what the person using it is using it to talk about. And so we always experience the form and meaning together. But a language model, so that the core component of something like Gemini or Grok or Claude or ChatGPT is literally a system for modeling which bits of words go with which other bits of words in whatever the input collection of text was to create that model. And so what we have are models that are very good at putting literally like spellings of parts of words next to each other in a way that looks like something somebody might say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex have come up with a few phrases that illustrate what large language models really are, which also describe the limitations of this tech. We’ve got synthetic text extruding machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The choice of the word extrude is very intentional because it’s a little gross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Racist pile of linear algebra. Spicy autocomplete. And one phrase that really took off, stochastic parrot. Emily coined the phrase in a research paper she co-authored in 2020. Parrots can mimic human speech, but whether they can really comprehend it, that’s dubious. Stochastic comes from probability theory. It means randomly determined. So a stochastic parrot essentially mimics language in a random order and does so convincingly, but it doesn’t understand it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting with OpenAI’s GPT-2 and GPT3, they were using it to create synthetic text. And so one of the things we worried about in that paper is what happens if someone comes across synthetic text and doesn’t know that it was synthetic? What we didn’t realize at the time is that people would be happy to look at synthetic text while knowing that it’s synthetic. That is very surprising to me. And so the phrase stochastic parrots was this attempt to make vivid what’s going on, to help people understand why the output of a language model run to repeatedly answer the question, what’s a likely next word, is not the same thing as text produced by a person or group of people with something to communicate. And what’s happened, it’s been fascinating as a linguist to watch that phrase go out into the world, so for the first little while, it was people referring to the paper, and then it sort of became people talking about, um, that claim that large language models are not understanding, they’re just repeatedly predicting a likely next word. And then it got picked up or interpreted as an insult, which is surprising to me because in order for it to be an insult, the thing that it’s being applied to would have to the kind of thing that could be insulted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then in 2022, Sam Altman tweeted, I am a stochastic parrot and so are you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what happens when Sam Altman picks it up and tweets that is that it is, on the one hand, sort of an attempt to reclaim what is understood as an insult or slur by people in that mindset, but also, and very importantly, it is about minimizing what it is to be human, so that he can claim that the system that he’s built is as good as a person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex say this concept of comparing humans to, essentially, flesh machines is a classic move in the AI hype machine playbook. It’s reducing humanity and what it means to be human to programming, like Eliza in the 60s. Eliza was an early natural language processing program designed to mimic a therapist. Think of it as a great, great, great, grand chatbot of ChatGPT. A lot of people, from academics to government leaders to tech industry giants, bought into the Eliza hype. And that freaked out Eliza’s own creator, Joseph Weizenbaum. In a book he published in the 70s, Weizenbaum warned that machines would never be able to make the same decisions that humans make because they don’t have human empathy. His criticism of AI caused a stir in the research community. And decades later, AI boosters are still making that same claim. That humans and machines aren’t that different. But what does this devaluing of humanity really mean for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it means a lot of things. It really seems to emphasize that there is, kind of, aspects of human behavior that can just be reduced to our observable outputs, right? Humans are just things that output language or output actions, when that’s not true. Humans have a much more vivid internal life. Um, we think about others. Uh, we think about, kind of, co-presence, but it’s more about saying how we’re comparing ourselves to machines that are programmed by people and those people in those institutions have particular types of incentives to make machines that behave as such. So that’s the kind of implications that it has and it also has the implications of other kinds of moves into humanism, dehumanization and what that does and how we treat people and with regards to dignity and propriety of rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you also give concrete examples of where we see this kind of, uh, devaluing of humans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think if we say that humans can be reduced to their outputs, that that leads to lots of problems. And one is we end up saying, you know, the form of, or the words that teachers and students say in the classroom is the learning situation. And so we can replace the teacher with a system for outputting words and then those students will get as much and maybe it’ll be personalized and it’ll better. And that is dehumanizing to teachers clearly and also to students because it removes, you know, everything that is about the student and teacher’s internal life and about their relationship and about their community from the situation. But I think it’s also really important in terms of the workforce more generally, that basically if we say, well, humans like large language models are systems for outputting words, then it’s a very small step to basically saying the whole value of this person is how many words they can output and doing a very, very dehumanizing work environment to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also see this in other domains like the Amazon work floor and the ways that these mini robots flit from place to place and the so-called quote unquote pickers. People on Amazon work warehouses have to pick things and then deliver them. So there’s a lot of implications for that and I think also in seeing the humanity in other folks and how we treat other folks. You know, if they’re merely meat machines, then what does it say about how we view them with respect to, kind of, personal rights and human rights and what kind of rights they should be afforded? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This idea of human beings just being walking meat machines is chilling. It definitely creeped me out. What are the other real world consequences of this thinking? Let’s open a new tab. Who’s really harmed by AI hype? Alex and Emily have said that their goal with writing the AI con is to reduce the harm caused by AI hype. Automation, for example, doesn’t just replace jobs. Healthcare providers are increasingly relying on AI products for medical triage to decide which patients to see first. Free legal representation, a guaranteed right in criminal cases, can be replaced by a lawyer using a chat bot. All of this potentially lowers the quality of these services. And introduces bias into these systems. Artists and other creatives, meanwhile, are struggling to make ends meet as AI generators, sometimes trained on their own work, are used as a cheaper, faster alternative. And then there’s how large language models are disrupting our whole information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a metaphor we use in the book, the idea that information is being output from these models and results in information ecosystem spills, like toxic spills that really can’t be cleaned up. There’s not really a reliable way to detect synthetic text. And so you’re having to deal with and navigate and try to understand whether something on the internet is actually reflective of truth claims that are being made and perhaps researched more deeply by human individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve written that the strongest critiques against AI boosterism come from black, brown, poor, queer, and disabled scholars and activists. Can you talk about some examples of these critiques and why these groups specifically are so uniquely positioned to make them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we wrote about that in the register of thinking about the ways in which systems, in here, I want to say data-driven systems, not just large language models, but even different systems just don’t work for black, brown communities, queer, and trans people, and then people like refugees and people on the move. The kind of pioneering work of Drs. Temnit Gebru and Joy Buolamwini in their paper Gender Shades talks about facial analysis systems, specifically the way that facial analysis systems do very poorly on darker-skinned women and that there’s a huge delta between darker-skinned women and lighter-skinned men. Sasha Costanza-Chock talks about how tools like TSA scanners do very poorly on trans people. Typically flagging genitals as anomalies or chest areas as anomalities, and then the kind of disparities of how systems talk about women. So there’s been a few papers talking about the ways in which different tools, in this case a word embedding space, makes associations between people and occupation. So, man is to doctor, women is to… typically, the completion is nurse, so it makes presuppositions of this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this stuff effectively happens in large-language models [laughter] and happens in image generation models as well. There’s some great research by the Bloomberg data team that shows that if you input something like a nurse, uh, typically or a housekeeper, it outputs a kind of a phenotypically looking darker-skinned woman. If you type in CEO, white man. And so those kinds of elements are the bias element of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ruha Benjamin sums it up really nicely in this beautiful essay called The New Artificial Intelligentsia that appeared in the LA Review of Books in 2024. And she’s talking about these ideas of transhumanism and merging with the machines. She says this zealous desire to transcend humanity ignores the fact that we have not all had the chance to be fully human. My interpretation of what she’s saying is that the people that society does not accord full humanity to have a very different experience of technology, both in the ways, as Alex is saying, it’s being used on them, in the ways that doesn’t work well for them and just in the way that it intrudes on their life. And so people who have the privilege of not experiencing any of that tend to be less sensitized to what’s going on and to have a less informed perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this less-informed perspective encourages AI boosters, who continue to fuel the hype machine. This means investing in and launching new products at a breakneck pace, often overlooking the real-world impact. The MIT Technology Review recently reported that generating one 5-second AI video uses about 3.4 million joules, the equivalent of running a microwave for over an hour. At scale this amount of energy consumption is devastating for the environment. And running all of this comes at a steep price for AI companies, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like we talked about earlier, OpenAI’s Sora app is proving to be wildly expensive, with more users generating videos than actually watching them. And after the copyright fiasco and subsequent new guardrails, it seems like some initial adopters are already moving on. Can the hype machine sustain this kind of frenzied investment with such limited return? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re opening one last tab. Is the height machine breaking? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think the AI hype bubble is going to burst? I mean, like, are there economic critiques? You’ve heard the social ones, but is there anything pointing to the AI height bubble possibly at least deflating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, the problem is that there’s so much capital expenditure going into building things like data centers, and they’re going into these massive data center build out where, you know, the kind of projections and how much OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and Meta are spending on this all is astronomical. I mean, hundreds of billions of dollars, just some of the largest technological infrastructure projects that we’ve ever seen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, OpenAI again, the company that has the most queries to Chat GPT, people using most of its products, is making revenue on the order of maybe $10 billion a year. So it’s just orders of magnitude less. And the kind of metaphor that’s being used as well, we have to build the railroads first, and then once the rail roads get going, we can put rail cars in them. But that metaphor doesn’t work at all. People are already using the product. And, you know, companies are already saying, we’re not getting a lot of value out of this. You know, there was an, something that was coming out of MIT, which said 95% of companies just haven’t really gained value from quote unquote AI. So what’s happening? This is very bubble shaped, you now, and I don’t know how the story ends, but it’s very alarming that these four to seven companies are propping up the US and world economy right now, so what happens when the bubble deflates or bursts, it’s not going to be good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you said, um, you finished this book in September 2024. The AI industry has only grown since then. What have you learned about the state of the AI hype machine from the reception to your book? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say what I’ve learned the most about is about the resilience of people and the importance of connection and community. So the antidote to the hype is a variety of things, one is ridicule as praxis, as we say in the book, and also solidarity and labor movements, but also just sort of connection. And one form of that connection is that there’s a lot of people who are, who feel isolated in a workplace or a social circle where everyone around them seems just completely gaga for this technology and they’re the odd one out. And so one of the joys of both our podcasts and this book has been to find those people and be found by those people who say, oh, so glad I’m not the only one. And then they can form community with other people who have the same reaction and I think that that is super important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things we grapple a lot just like within Close All Tabs is where to draw the line with AI use, you know. And again, that’s complicated. What is AI? For example, we don’t use ChatGPT, but we use an AI transcription tool for our interviews. Are there conditions under which using large language models, AI tools, are reasonable or justified, appropriate? And then what’s your message to the average listener who maybe uses ChatGPT in their daily but they’re not necessarily AI boosters and not necessarily AI doomers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Um, so to the first question, I would say I never call it an AI transcription tool. I would say automatic transcription, right? And that is a use case where, you know, you want to look at the labor conditions of the people who produced it, where the training data come from. And it’s also a use case where you are well positioned to check the output and see if it’s working well for you, right. You’ve got something that has been recorded, you’ve got an automatically produced transcript, you’re presumably going through and correcting it. And if it is wrong all the time, or if you have one that is particularly bad for non-Anglo names, for example, you might start looking for something that’s better. So that is a case of automation that I think can be okay. You still want to look into who produced it. Are there privacy implications? Can I use this tool without uploading my data to somebody else and so on? But there’s reasonable uses and reasonable ways to produce automatic transcription. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re talking about chat bots of the form of ChatGPT, I don’t see reasonable use cases there. And partially we know that the labor and environmental costs are extraordinarily high, that this is not produced ethically. But even setting that aside, every time you turn to ChatGPT for information, you’re cutting yourself off from important sense-making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the examples I like to use, if you think about an old fashioned search engine that gave you back, you know, the 10 blue links and you’ve got a medical query, what might come back in those links is a link to, you know something like the Mayo Clinic and then your regional university medical center, so in the Bay area, you know UCSF. And you might get a link to Dr. Oz’s page and you might get a link to a discussion forum where people with the same medical questions are talking to each other. And you can then look at those and understand the information that’s there based on what you know about the Mayo Clinic and UCSF and Dr. Oz and discussion forums. But that also helps you continue to update what you know, about those kinds of sites. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whereas if you asked a chatbot and you got back something that was just sort of some paper mache made up out of some combination of what’s in those sites, you not only don’t know how to contextualize what you’ve seen, but you’re also cut off from ability to continue to understand the information environment. And then very importantly, if you think about that discussion forum, any given, you know, sentence from that discussion forum interpreted as information, you’re going to want to take with a big grain of salt. But the chance to connect with people who are going through the same medical journey is priceless. And there’s a, the scholar Chris Gilliard describes these technologies as technologies of isolation. And I think it’s really important to think about anytime you might turn to a chat bot- what would you have done three years ago? What would you have done when ChatGPT was not in your world and what are you missing out on by not doing that now? The connections that you would make with people, the ongoing maintenance of relationships, the building of community, the deeper sense of what’s going on in the world around you, all of these are precious and I think not to be thrown away for the semblance of convenience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I think the final thing that I would say is look out for, identify, and reject the inevitability narrative. So the tech companies would like us to believe that AI is the future, it’s definitely coming. Even if you don’t like it, you have to resign yourself to it. And you’ll get people saying, well, it’s here to stay, we have to learn what to live with it. And I refuse that. I say that is also a bid to steal our agency because the future is not written. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are all my questions. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a pleasure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who’s KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod, or TikTok at Close All Tabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens to dating when every misstep has the potential to go viral? That’s what happened when social media posts warning about a few bad dates with a man named “West Elm Caleb” blew up on TikTok in 2022, and became a cautionary tale on the culture of public shaming. In this episode, Morgan speaks with tech journalist Tanya Chen and culture writer Magdalene Taylor about the rise of the “dating panopticon” — a world in which love, gossip, and surveillance collide. From ghosting to the hacked “Tea App,” they explore how online whisper networks meant to protect women have turned into digital minefields, and what it takes to opt out of turning our romantic lives into content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8574284943\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/magdajtaylor?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene Taylor\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, writer, culture critic, and senior editor at Playboy\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/tanyachen\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tanya Tianyi Chen\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, independent tech writer and editor\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sexual-culture.com/p/reject-the-digital-dating-panopticon\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reject the Digital Dating Panopticon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Magdalene J. Taylor, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many Such Cases\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sexual-culture.com/p/gender-relations-have-made-dating\">Gender Relations Have Made Dating a Hostile Act\u003c/a> — Magdalene J. Taylor, \u003ci>Many Such Cases\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/cyber-security/714750/tea-hack-breach\">Women’s ‘red flag’ app Tea is a privacy nightmare\u003c/a> — Tanya Tianyi Chen, \u003ci>The Verge \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2022/01/west-elm-caleb-tiktok-explained.html\">West Elm Caleb: The TikTok mob’s latest target might not deserve its wrath.\u003c/a> — Madison Malone Kircher, \u003ci>Slate\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me tell you an ancient cautionary tale about a man known as West Elm Caleb. Okay, this story is not that ancient. It took place in 2022, but in internet time, that’s eons ago. Caleb was a 20-something-year-old guy who lived in New York City, purportedly worked at the super trendy furniture company, West Elm, and became the poster child of everything wrong with dating app culture. It started on TikTok, when a woman named Mimi posted a video venting about getting ghosted by a man named Caleb. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimi Shou: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wasn’t going to make a video about this, but I feel like it’s my duty as your Asian older sister to warn my New York City girls about this Caleb from West Elm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple other women commented, West Elm Caleb? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw somebody talking about West Elm Caleb. Tall man, works at the same place, same name. This is a little too coincidental. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever been personally victimized by West Elm Caleb? I’ve got the perfect f***ing song for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As it turned out, Mimi was talking about a completely different man. But those other women realized that they had all briefly dated the same guy, a 20-something mustachioed West Elm designer named Caleb. And they started talking about their unpleasant experiences with so-called West Elm Caleb. So here’s what West Elm Caleb has been accused of. He was a serial ghoster. He allegedly sent an unsolicited nude. He dated several women at once, sometimes seeing them back-to-back on the same day. And he sent multiple women supposedly customized playlists of romantic songs, only for them to find out that he had actually recycled the same one. It’s one of the gravest offenses in dating. For a few weeks, this man was the internet’s public enemy number one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I believe he lost his job due to this. You know, it was just a few women who dated him who really didn’t like it. And they just were sharing their stories and it grew so out of hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Tanya Chen, an internet and tech reporter and my very online friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that was deeply unfortunate for Caleb, for West Elm Caleb. I do often wonder how he’s doing and where he is and how that whole experience shaped him forever. And again, I think we caveat to say, Morgan and I, we’re friends and we’re women and we’ve dated men. This is not to say that men should not be called out and should not have their feet held to the fire for their conduct. But how we do it and how things get out of hand is absolutely, I don’t think it justifies the crime in this case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This culture of public shaming as punishment for bad behavior on dating apps is becoming more and more common. Whisper networks, meant to warn other women about dangerous men, have been twisted to harass people for the smallest offenses, like ghosting or refusing to commit to a relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to dating, there’s so many difficult intimacy gaps and things happening between people. I’m sure we all have done things that we regret. We all have behaved in a way that we did not want to when it come to dating. And so for those extremely vulnerable and embarrassing moments to be then shared on such a public stage. It’s an incredibly unnerving experience, and I think it’s leading to a new host of behavioral and psychological problems, especially with young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, these whisper networks have been infiltrated and turned against the women trying to keep each other safe. Like what happened with the Tea App. Tea Dating Advice, better known as the Tea App, went super viral over the summer as an app that has been described as Yelp for Men. It’s a closed, women-only platform that allows users to post about the red flags in men they’ve dated. The app was already contentious. Some people thought it violated men’s privacy. Then the app was hacked, twice, and user information like their driver’s licenses and private messages were spread online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This practice of monitoring and tattling on each other and of turning these intimate experiences into content is really just surveillance. The landscape of modern romance has changed dramatically in recent years, which has had devastating effects on the way people connect with each other. So what do we do about it? Today, we’re diving into the dating panopticon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll come back to Tanya, West Elm Caleb, and the Tea App later. First, how did we get here anyway? Let’s open our first tab. What is the dating panopticon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the 1700s, this philosopher, Jeremy Bentham, came up with a concept of a circular prison. Jail cells line the perimeter of the building, and they all face a single watchtower looming in the center. The design is called a panopticon and comes from the Greek word for all seeing. The idea is that prisoners would behave because they think they’re being watched at all times. Today, the word panopticon is typically used as a metaphor for surveillance. And social media introduces a whole new dimension to the system. So to dive into this, we’re gonna talk to Magdalene Taylor, a sex and culture writer and senior editor at Playboy. Earlier this year, she wrote about the state of surveillance in modern romance in her newsletter, Many Such Cases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to me, the dating panopticon, it’s very much digitally focused, but it’s this pervasive sense that you are constantly being watched in your romantic interactions and that other people are constantly watching you. And with that, there’s a sense of surveillance and even sort of punishment involved. And we see a lot of this play out on dating apps, in Facebook groups, on just regular social media, Twitter, but then also in recent months, it’s really been distilled in apps like the Tea App. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene started thinking about the dating panopticon while watching another dating scandal unfold online. Back in the spring, then 22-year-old political influencer Harry Sisson was accused of leading on multiple women. They all thought they were dating him exclusively, via Snapchat, only to find out that he was allegedly sexting all of them at once. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While it’s obviously bad behavior on his part to be flirting with multiple women at a time on Snapchat, especially if these women were sending intimate photos and believing that they were the only one doing this, at the same time, I personally don’t find it all that unexpected or really newsworthy that a young 20-something-year-old man would be somewhat sexually active and perhaps even a little bit promiscuous. But something that the dating panopticon does is it distills these moments into a viral moment for everybody else to dissect and engage with and really play into the drama of. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When did you notice this shift in this culture of like public shaming and surveillance?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To me, it really felt like the social media element of it all really blew up post-COVID and the immediate aftermath of being liberated from lockdowns. I think that we sort of momentarily lost touch with what normal human behavior and human interaction looks like, just the general ability to have a conversation with each other. And so going back into the dating world for a lot of people, I think was a very jarring experience. And with that, I think over the period of lockdown, a lot us probably got a lot more online. We probably got lot more hooked to our phones and became far more accustomed to filtering our lives through that lens specifically. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene also pointed to the MeToo movement, which took off in 2017 as survivors came forward with their experiences of sexual violence and harassment in Hollywood. It started with women sharing stories of abuse and mistreatment, offering support and solidarity to each other. When the pandemic shut everything down and TikTok blew up, a lot of human interaction was reduced to content. YouTubers and other influencers have been doing this for years. But with the pandemic? Everyone was online. And everyone could post and consume content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it did trickle down in a way where, in addition to sharing crimes that people have committed, it also kind of veered in a different direction for some people in sharing just bad date stories and more misbehavior type things like ghosting somebody or going on a couple of early dates with women at a time or something like that. And so I think that all of these factors kind of converge together in 2021 or so and made for an environment where sharing these stories, whether it be your personal testament or whether it just be gossip, is now a very popular thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, in a lot of these cases, it seems like these incidents of bad behavior, whether it’s ghosting or seeing multiple women at once before any relationship is exclusive, is often conflated with the actual abuse and violence that the Me Too movement was about. Why do these two very different relationship dynamics get conflated in this dating panopticon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, so I think that at the core of the dating panopticon is the fact that we are constantly looking for new content to consume and new drama to unfold. And a lot of us are on our phones way too much. That’s again our primary source of entertainment and social interaction. I think it’s an entertainment value thing that we’re looking for something else to capture our attention. And periodically that means resorting to kind of high school level romantic drama. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How has different tech surveillance made this prominent other than just, you know, like public shaming? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The dating panopticon exists because the data history of all of our dating lives exists through apps and through social media. But then there’s also this culture of our smartphones have made it so that you can discreetly film somebody anytime, basically, and more than that, share that to Instagram, share that Twitter. But what the dating panopticon has done is that it has transformed all of us into the surveillers and our phones are really the tool through which we’re doing that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are other ways you’ve seen this kind of surveillance culture manifest in modern dating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think unfortunately there’s a lot of fearfulness in dating right now, and I think it’s possible to argue that something like the sex recession or, you know, any of the various statistics that suggest that people are forming relationships less or dating less or otherwise just spending more time alone. I think that it’s possible to argue that all of that is connected to the dating panopticon. It’s my belief personally that the dating panopticon is causing a portion of the retreat from interpersonal life that we’re seeing among young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just content that’s fueling the dating panopticon. The whisper networks are now being twisted for surveillance. That’s what happened with the Tea App. And we’ll break down the story of that privacy nightmare in a new tab. But first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what’s up with the Tea App? Let’s open a new tab. The Tea App scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tea App launched in 2023, but really started gaining traction over the summer when a new wave of users were approved to join. On TikTok, women started posting about their experiences on the app, from realizing that their boyfriends were cheating to warning others about a creepy date they had. As those stories blew up, more people joined the app. Like one person who shared her story with us. To protect her identity, we’re just going to refer to this person as N. She’s a single woman in her 20s, and like a lot of young women, has had some iffy experiences with dating. So, out of curiosity, she went on the Tea App. As she scrolled through the feed, she saw a familiar face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I click on it, and it is the person that I thought it was. And it turned out to be this guy that I had been talking to for a little bit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user had posted about him after he slid into her DMs. She asked other Tea App users if anyone had information about him. So N responded from her anonymous account. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s not something where I can say like, oh, he like cheated or oh, it’s nothing like that, you know? But it was just a sign of, I don’t know, it’s just like, dang, like, dude, you could have just, like, we talked about it, like you could’ve just told me to my face, you know, and just been honest about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They exchanged a few messages and another girl jumped in and said this guy had also tried to hit on her and was pretty bummed out but she moved on. She stopped seeing the guy and then a couple of weeks later she got a text from an unknown number. This was outside of the app, directly to her phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were just saying that I’m basically, I’m trying to like paint him out to be this really bad guy and that he’s like the only good guy left in the city. And that I’m trying to mess his reputation up and all this stuff and that I’m trying to like mess up his family and that he’s actually a nice person and all of this stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the thread on the Tea App multiple other users had responded to her, accusing her of lying about this guy. She eventually realized that one of his friends had probably seen the comments, figured out it was her, and sent the post to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just deleted the app. I deleted everything. I was like, just leave me out of it. This experience has completely changed my perspective, not just on dating, just even in social media, just as a whole. I guess I’m like a Gen Z-er, so I’ve grown up with social media my whole life, but if I can go back and not post a response to that girl, I 100% would go back and erase that. I would not have posted on the app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as it turns out, the Tea App itself was riddled with security blind spots. Let’s go back to my friend Tanya. She’s a tech journalist who recently covered the Tea App for The Verge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The M.O. was to create this network online on the app that would essentially help women share stories, cues, protect each other from dating otherwise toxic, red-flaggy men. And we’ve seen this iteration in more unofficial online campaigns, like with, “are we dating the same guy” Facebook groups that sprouted up and gained popularity. So this was like the most official kind of wrangled in-app way that this has been done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tea App was supposed to be a giant global version of these local “are we dating the same guy” Facebook groups, like a background check database. Only women were allowed to join the app. And at first, potential users had to submit a photo of a government ID, like their driver’s license. They’ve since phased that out though, and just require selfies. The app says that these images are deleted after the user is verified. However, someone found an unsecured database of about 72,000 user images, including some 13,000 selfies and pictures of IDs. An anonymous user posted this database to 4chan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the idea, the intent from these 4chan users was to shame and show how unprotected it was, but mostly to shame women who are posting on there because they felt really threatened by the app’s function. And from that 4chan post, tons of other 4chan users were able to access and download sensitive information and data. And even post them online. It was, I imagine, pretty, pretty stressful for everyone involved. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A week later, the Tea App was hacked again. The breach exposed over a million private messages, which included discussions of abortions and the phone numbers users sent each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s deeply concerning, I think for anyone who is not online. Imagine just someone being able to go through, rummage your stuff and print a picture of your image and staple it to a traffic light or something. It’s very violating. It is so hard to control. It’s so hard wrangle once you have that out there. I think that’s been the big lesson in all of this. Beyond, you know, the kind of social-cultural ramifications of doing this, there’s the deep concerning privacy issue that we’re still litigating out in society, in government. There are no laws, policies that protect anyone, users from protecting their own identities and their own likenesses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response to the Tea App’s popularity, developers launched TeaOnHer, the men’s version of the Tea App to gossip about women. It turns out that TeaOnHer was also a privacy nightmare and also leaked users’ private information and government IDs. It wasn’t the only so-called Tea App for men.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of them got pulled down immediately because men resorted to revenge porn and you know incredibly illegal and exploitative and damaging ways that weren’t just to protect their fellow brethren. It was to again shame women, right. In this kind of discourse we do kind of see, you know, the disparities in how men and women date and how they perceive threats and how they respond to criticism, it is deeply fascinating and not at all surprising. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of whisper networks meant to keep other people safe, other marginalized people safe, they’re within closed circles, whether it’s a close friend story or text or like a group chat between friends. How does bringing that online suddenly make it a tool of surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love discussing surveillance culture in the panopticon. I think of all of us who are like extremely weary of the eyes online, the eyes on us. It’s just such a source of anxiety for so many of us when, yeah, how someone perceives you or represents you or their own narrative about you can make you feel seen in kind of a bad way or make you feels seen in a way that doesn’t give you, you know, good feelings or closure or healing. Surveillance culture is typically a destructive and perilous and anxiety-inducing experience. Someone has put you on the stage and you are being seen at 360 around you without your consent. And oftentimes you are muted. You don’t have the platform that you think you do and people are just kind of watching you and sometimes waiting for you to mess up so that they can report you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what can you do about this constant surveillance? Can you trust modern love when the internet is always watching? We’re going back to Magdalene and opening one last tab, rejecting the dating panopticon. How is this kind of culture of surveillance, this dating panopticon, how is that impacting the way people date and connect to each other and seek out new connections? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think that the dating panopticon has jaded a lot of people who are still willing to engage in dating life at all. I think that it has made people fearful and suspicious of each other. I think that made a lot people afraid of each other and suspicious of their intentions and what harms could befall them for pursuing dating. And so I think that there’s all these little points of evidence to suggest that people are trying to get away from this sort of watchful eye of digital life in dating, but we’re not fully there yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your essay was titled, Rejecting the Dating Panopticon. What does it mean to you to reject this kind of culture of surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it means choosing to not engage with this culture of surveillance, whether that be you yourself decide to not post an awkward message that you received on Tinder or you choose to not comment on the latest TikTok thread of somebody in a state that you’re not in, the people you don’t even know having some kind of dating scandal among them. I hate to really go back to very simple platitudes of, you know, treat others how you want to be treated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think that a lot of us need to think about how we’re engaging with social media and deciding that we shouldn’t be using other people’s vulnerability and romantic pursuits as content. And, you know, it can be difficult to parse these things out because like we’ve been saying this whole time, cheating on women is bad, ghosting is bad. All of these things are examples of bad behavior. But it’s so easy for these things to go back to a much more basic level of we are going to publicly shame a guy for sliding into somebody’s DMs at all. These things can so quickly turn into us embarrassing each other for social media points. We have to be a bit more selective and we have to intentionally decide that that’s not how we want to live our lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that intentions are important thing to keep in mind here and that the dating panopticon encourages women not just to warn each other about bad behavior, but to make content because your brain likes notifications now because we’ve been hardwired to receive dopamine when our phone lights up. We can all do a little bit of a better job of understanding what our desire is in posting something. And are we posting about somebody because we actually want to warn other women, or are we posting about the shitty dates we went on because TikTok has incentivized us to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Remember N? She’s the woman who tried to give other users a heads up about the guy she was seeing, only to be harassed for it. N said that the experience has made her more cautious, not just about dating, but also about trusting what she thought was a safe space online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I first started using the app, yeah because it was anonymous, I did feel safe and just knowing I can share whatever information I wanted without people knowing that it was me. But after the situation that happened, the world is just a lot smaller than you think and people are a lot more connected than you’d think. I just realized that anything you put out there, is there’s always going to be a chance of it potentially coming back, whether it be good, bad, or whatever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, maybe keep the whisper networks offline, or at least confined to a very, very trusted group chat. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs’ Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Audio engineering by Brendan Willard and Brian Douglas. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens to dating when every misstep has the potential to go viral? That’s what happened when social media posts warning about a few bad dates with a man named “West Elm Caleb” blew up on TikTok in 2022, and became a cautionary tale on the culture of public shaming. In this episode, Morgan speaks with tech journalist Tanya Chen and culture writer Magdalene Taylor about the rise of the “dating panopticon” — a world in which love, gossip, and surveillance collide. From ghosting to the hacked “Tea App,” they explore how online whisper networks meant to protect women have turned into digital minefields, and what it takes to opt out of turning our romantic lives into content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8574284943\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/magdajtaylor?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene Taylor\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, writer, culture critic, and senior editor at Playboy\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/tanyachen\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tanya Tianyi Chen\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, independent tech writer and editor\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sexual-culture.com/p/reject-the-digital-dating-panopticon\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reject the Digital Dating Panopticon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Magdalene J. Taylor, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many Such Cases\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sexual-culture.com/p/gender-relations-have-made-dating\">Gender Relations Have Made Dating a Hostile Act\u003c/a> — Magdalene J. Taylor, \u003ci>Many Such Cases\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/cyber-security/714750/tea-hack-breach\">Women’s ‘red flag’ app Tea is a privacy nightmare\u003c/a> — Tanya Tianyi Chen, \u003ci>The Verge \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2022/01/west-elm-caleb-tiktok-explained.html\">West Elm Caleb: The TikTok mob’s latest target might not deserve its wrath.\u003c/a> — Madison Malone Kircher, \u003ci>Slate\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me tell you an ancient cautionary tale about a man known as West Elm Caleb. Okay, this story is not that ancient. It took place in 2022, but in internet time, that’s eons ago. Caleb was a 20-something-year-old guy who lived in New York City, purportedly worked at the super trendy furniture company, West Elm, and became the poster child of everything wrong with dating app culture. It started on TikTok, when a woman named Mimi posted a video venting about getting ghosted by a man named Caleb. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimi Shou: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wasn’t going to make a video about this, but I feel like it’s my duty as your Asian older sister to warn my New York City girls about this Caleb from West Elm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple other women commented, West Elm Caleb? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw somebody talking about West Elm Caleb. Tall man, works at the same place, same name. This is a little too coincidental. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever been personally victimized by West Elm Caleb? I’ve got the perfect f***ing song for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As it turned out, Mimi was talking about a completely different man. But those other women realized that they had all briefly dated the same guy, a 20-something mustachioed West Elm designer named Caleb. And they started talking about their unpleasant experiences with so-called West Elm Caleb. So here’s what West Elm Caleb has been accused of. He was a serial ghoster. He allegedly sent an unsolicited nude. He dated several women at once, sometimes seeing them back-to-back on the same day. And he sent multiple women supposedly customized playlists of romantic songs, only for them to find out that he had actually recycled the same one. It’s one of the gravest offenses in dating. For a few weeks, this man was the internet’s public enemy number one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I believe he lost his job due to this. You know, it was just a few women who dated him who really didn’t like it. And they just were sharing their stories and it grew so out of hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Tanya Chen, an internet and tech reporter and my very online friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that was deeply unfortunate for Caleb, for West Elm Caleb. I do often wonder how he’s doing and where he is and how that whole experience shaped him forever. And again, I think we caveat to say, Morgan and I, we’re friends and we’re women and we’ve dated men. This is not to say that men should not be called out and should not have their feet held to the fire for their conduct. But how we do it and how things get out of hand is absolutely, I don’t think it justifies the crime in this case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This culture of public shaming as punishment for bad behavior on dating apps is becoming more and more common. Whisper networks, meant to warn other women about dangerous men, have been twisted to harass people for the smallest offenses, like ghosting or refusing to commit to a relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to dating, there’s so many difficult intimacy gaps and things happening between people. I’m sure we all have done things that we regret. We all have behaved in a way that we did not want to when it come to dating. And so for those extremely vulnerable and embarrassing moments to be then shared on such a public stage. It’s an incredibly unnerving experience, and I think it’s leading to a new host of behavioral and psychological problems, especially with young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, these whisper networks have been infiltrated and turned against the women trying to keep each other safe. Like what happened with the Tea App. Tea Dating Advice, better known as the Tea App, went super viral over the summer as an app that has been described as Yelp for Men. It’s a closed, women-only platform that allows users to post about the red flags in men they’ve dated. The app was already contentious. Some people thought it violated men’s privacy. Then the app was hacked, twice, and user information like their driver’s licenses and private messages were spread online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This practice of monitoring and tattling on each other and of turning these intimate experiences into content is really just surveillance. The landscape of modern romance has changed dramatically in recent years, which has had devastating effects on the way people connect with each other. So what do we do about it? Today, we’re diving into the dating panopticon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll come back to Tanya, West Elm Caleb, and the Tea App later. First, how did we get here anyway? Let’s open our first tab. What is the dating panopticon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the 1700s, this philosopher, Jeremy Bentham, came up with a concept of a circular prison. Jail cells line the perimeter of the building, and they all face a single watchtower looming in the center. The design is called a panopticon and comes from the Greek word for all seeing. The idea is that prisoners would behave because they think they’re being watched at all times. Today, the word panopticon is typically used as a metaphor for surveillance. And social media introduces a whole new dimension to the system. So to dive into this, we’re gonna talk to Magdalene Taylor, a sex and culture writer and senior editor at Playboy. Earlier this year, she wrote about the state of surveillance in modern romance in her newsletter, Many Such Cases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to me, the dating panopticon, it’s very much digitally focused, but it’s this pervasive sense that you are constantly being watched in your romantic interactions and that other people are constantly watching you. And with that, there’s a sense of surveillance and even sort of punishment involved. And we see a lot of this play out on dating apps, in Facebook groups, on just regular social media, Twitter, but then also in recent months, it’s really been distilled in apps like the Tea App. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene started thinking about the dating panopticon while watching another dating scandal unfold online. Back in the spring, then 22-year-old political influencer Harry Sisson was accused of leading on multiple women. They all thought they were dating him exclusively, via Snapchat, only to find out that he was allegedly sexting all of them at once. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While it’s obviously bad behavior on his part to be flirting with multiple women at a time on Snapchat, especially if these women were sending intimate photos and believing that they were the only one doing this, at the same time, I personally don’t find it all that unexpected or really newsworthy that a young 20-something-year-old man would be somewhat sexually active and perhaps even a little bit promiscuous. But something that the dating panopticon does is it distills these moments into a viral moment for everybody else to dissect and engage with and really play into the drama of. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When did you notice this shift in this culture of like public shaming and surveillance?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To me, it really felt like the social media element of it all really blew up post-COVID and the immediate aftermath of being liberated from lockdowns. I think that we sort of momentarily lost touch with what normal human behavior and human interaction looks like, just the general ability to have a conversation with each other. And so going back into the dating world for a lot of people, I think was a very jarring experience. And with that, I think over the period of lockdown, a lot us probably got a lot more online. We probably got lot more hooked to our phones and became far more accustomed to filtering our lives through that lens specifically. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene also pointed to the MeToo movement, which took off in 2017 as survivors came forward with their experiences of sexual violence and harassment in Hollywood. It started with women sharing stories of abuse and mistreatment, offering support and solidarity to each other. When the pandemic shut everything down and TikTok blew up, a lot of human interaction was reduced to content. YouTubers and other influencers have been doing this for years. But with the pandemic? Everyone was online. And everyone could post and consume content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it did trickle down in a way where, in addition to sharing crimes that people have committed, it also kind of veered in a different direction for some people in sharing just bad date stories and more misbehavior type things like ghosting somebody or going on a couple of early dates with women at a time or something like that. And so I think that all of these factors kind of converge together in 2021 or so and made for an environment where sharing these stories, whether it be your personal testament or whether it just be gossip, is now a very popular thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, in a lot of these cases, it seems like these incidents of bad behavior, whether it’s ghosting or seeing multiple women at once before any relationship is exclusive, is often conflated with the actual abuse and violence that the Me Too movement was about. Why do these two very different relationship dynamics get conflated in this dating panopticon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, so I think that at the core of the dating panopticon is the fact that we are constantly looking for new content to consume and new drama to unfold. And a lot of us are on our phones way too much. That’s again our primary source of entertainment and social interaction. I think it’s an entertainment value thing that we’re looking for something else to capture our attention. And periodically that means resorting to kind of high school level romantic drama. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How has different tech surveillance made this prominent other than just, you know, like public shaming? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The dating panopticon exists because the data history of all of our dating lives exists through apps and through social media. But then there’s also this culture of our smartphones have made it so that you can discreetly film somebody anytime, basically, and more than that, share that to Instagram, share that Twitter. But what the dating panopticon has done is that it has transformed all of us into the surveillers and our phones are really the tool through which we’re doing that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are other ways you’ve seen this kind of surveillance culture manifest in modern dating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think unfortunately there’s a lot of fearfulness in dating right now, and I think it’s possible to argue that something like the sex recession or, you know, any of the various statistics that suggest that people are forming relationships less or dating less or otherwise just spending more time alone. I think that it’s possible to argue that all of that is connected to the dating panopticon. It’s my belief personally that the dating panopticon is causing a portion of the retreat from interpersonal life that we’re seeing among young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just content that’s fueling the dating panopticon. The whisper networks are now being twisted for surveillance. That’s what happened with the Tea App. And we’ll break down the story of that privacy nightmare in a new tab. But first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what’s up with the Tea App? Let’s open a new tab. The Tea App scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tea App launched in 2023, but really started gaining traction over the summer when a new wave of users were approved to join. On TikTok, women started posting about their experiences on the app, from realizing that their boyfriends were cheating to warning others about a creepy date they had. As those stories blew up, more people joined the app. Like one person who shared her story with us. To protect her identity, we’re just going to refer to this person as N. She’s a single woman in her 20s, and like a lot of young women, has had some iffy experiences with dating. So, out of curiosity, she went on the Tea App. As she scrolled through the feed, she saw a familiar face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I click on it, and it is the person that I thought it was. And it turned out to be this guy that I had been talking to for a little bit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user had posted about him after he slid into her DMs. She asked other Tea App users if anyone had information about him. So N responded from her anonymous account. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s not something where I can say like, oh, he like cheated or oh, it’s nothing like that, you know? But it was just a sign of, I don’t know, it’s just like, dang, like, dude, you could have just, like, we talked about it, like you could’ve just told me to my face, you know, and just been honest about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They exchanged a few messages and another girl jumped in and said this guy had also tried to hit on her and was pretty bummed out but she moved on. She stopped seeing the guy and then a couple of weeks later she got a text from an unknown number. This was outside of the app, directly to her phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were just saying that I’m basically, I’m trying to like paint him out to be this really bad guy and that he’s like the only good guy left in the city. And that I’m trying to mess his reputation up and all this stuff and that I’m trying to like mess up his family and that he’s actually a nice person and all of this stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the thread on the Tea App multiple other users had responded to her, accusing her of lying about this guy. She eventually realized that one of his friends had probably seen the comments, figured out it was her, and sent the post to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just deleted the app. I deleted everything. I was like, just leave me out of it. This experience has completely changed my perspective, not just on dating, just even in social media, just as a whole. I guess I’m like a Gen Z-er, so I’ve grown up with social media my whole life, but if I can go back and not post a response to that girl, I 100% would go back and erase that. I would not have posted on the app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as it turns out, the Tea App itself was riddled with security blind spots. Let’s go back to my friend Tanya. She’s a tech journalist who recently covered the Tea App for The Verge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The M.O. was to create this network online on the app that would essentially help women share stories, cues, protect each other from dating otherwise toxic, red-flaggy men. And we’ve seen this iteration in more unofficial online campaigns, like with, “are we dating the same guy” Facebook groups that sprouted up and gained popularity. So this was like the most official kind of wrangled in-app way that this has been done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tea App was supposed to be a giant global version of these local “are we dating the same guy” Facebook groups, like a background check database. Only women were allowed to join the app. And at first, potential users had to submit a photo of a government ID, like their driver’s license. They’ve since phased that out though, and just require selfies. The app says that these images are deleted after the user is verified. However, someone found an unsecured database of about 72,000 user images, including some 13,000 selfies and pictures of IDs. An anonymous user posted this database to 4chan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the idea, the intent from these 4chan users was to shame and show how unprotected it was, but mostly to shame women who are posting on there because they felt really threatened by the app’s function. And from that 4chan post, tons of other 4chan users were able to access and download sensitive information and data. And even post them online. It was, I imagine, pretty, pretty stressful for everyone involved. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A week later, the Tea App was hacked again. The breach exposed over a million private messages, which included discussions of abortions and the phone numbers users sent each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s deeply concerning, I think for anyone who is not online. Imagine just someone being able to go through, rummage your stuff and print a picture of your image and staple it to a traffic light or something. It’s very violating. It is so hard to control. It’s so hard wrangle once you have that out there. I think that’s been the big lesson in all of this. Beyond, you know, the kind of social-cultural ramifications of doing this, there’s the deep concerning privacy issue that we’re still litigating out in society, in government. There are no laws, policies that protect anyone, users from protecting their own identities and their own likenesses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response to the Tea App’s popularity, developers launched TeaOnHer, the men’s version of the Tea App to gossip about women. It turns out that TeaOnHer was also a privacy nightmare and also leaked users’ private information and government IDs. It wasn’t the only so-called Tea App for men.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of them got pulled down immediately because men resorted to revenge porn and you know incredibly illegal and exploitative and damaging ways that weren’t just to protect their fellow brethren. It was to again shame women, right. In this kind of discourse we do kind of see, you know, the disparities in how men and women date and how they perceive threats and how they respond to criticism, it is deeply fascinating and not at all surprising. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of whisper networks meant to keep other people safe, other marginalized people safe, they’re within closed circles, whether it’s a close friend story or text or like a group chat between friends. How does bringing that online suddenly make it a tool of surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love discussing surveillance culture in the panopticon. I think of all of us who are like extremely weary of the eyes online, the eyes on us. It’s just such a source of anxiety for so many of us when, yeah, how someone perceives you or represents you or their own narrative about you can make you feel seen in kind of a bad way or make you feels seen in a way that doesn’t give you, you know, good feelings or closure or healing. Surveillance culture is typically a destructive and perilous and anxiety-inducing experience. Someone has put you on the stage and you are being seen at 360 around you without your consent. And oftentimes you are muted. You don’t have the platform that you think you do and people are just kind of watching you and sometimes waiting for you to mess up so that they can report you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what can you do about this constant surveillance? Can you trust modern love when the internet is always watching? We’re going back to Magdalene and opening one last tab, rejecting the dating panopticon. How is this kind of culture of surveillance, this dating panopticon, how is that impacting the way people date and connect to each other and seek out new connections? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think that the dating panopticon has jaded a lot of people who are still willing to engage in dating life at all. I think that it has made people fearful and suspicious of each other. I think that made a lot people afraid of each other and suspicious of their intentions and what harms could befall them for pursuing dating. And so I think that there’s all these little points of evidence to suggest that people are trying to get away from this sort of watchful eye of digital life in dating, but we’re not fully there yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your essay was titled, Rejecting the Dating Panopticon. What does it mean to you to reject this kind of culture of surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it means choosing to not engage with this culture of surveillance, whether that be you yourself decide to not post an awkward message that you received on Tinder or you choose to not comment on the latest TikTok thread of somebody in a state that you’re not in, the people you don’t even know having some kind of dating scandal among them. I hate to really go back to very simple platitudes of, you know, treat others how you want to be treated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think that a lot of us need to think about how we’re engaging with social media and deciding that we shouldn’t be using other people’s vulnerability and romantic pursuits as content. And, you know, it can be difficult to parse these things out because like we’ve been saying this whole time, cheating on women is bad, ghosting is bad. All of these things are examples of bad behavior. But it’s so easy for these things to go back to a much more basic level of we are going to publicly shame a guy for sliding into somebody’s DMs at all. These things can so quickly turn into us embarrassing each other for social media points. We have to be a bit more selective and we have to intentionally decide that that’s not how we want to live our lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that intentions are important thing to keep in mind here and that the dating panopticon encourages women not just to warn each other about bad behavior, but to make content because your brain likes notifications now because we’ve been hardwired to receive dopamine when our phone lights up. We can all do a little bit of a better job of understanding what our desire is in posting something. And are we posting about somebody because we actually want to warn other women, or are we posting about the shitty dates we went on because TikTok has incentivized us to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Remember N? She’s the woman who tried to give other users a heads up about the guy she was seeing, only to be harassed for it. N said that the experience has made her more cautious, not just about dating, but also about trusting what she thought was a safe space online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I first started using the app, yeah because it was anonymous, I did feel safe and just knowing I can share whatever information I wanted without people knowing that it was me. But after the situation that happened, the world is just a lot smaller than you think and people are a lot more connected than you’d think. I just realized that anything you put out there, is there’s always going to be a chance of it potentially coming back, whether it be good, bad, or whatever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, maybe keep the whisper networks offline, or at least confined to a very, very trusted group chat. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs’ Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Audio engineering by Brendan Willard and Brian Douglas. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Clacky,” “Poppy,” and “Thocky” may sound like the latest cereal elves, but they’re actually terms to describe the sounds of typing on a mechanical keyboard. What started as a niche hobby blew up during the pandemic, with a huge influx of creators posting tutorials, reviews, and soothing ASMR videos on social media. Many hobbyists are so enthusiastic about achieving the perfect sound, feel and response from their personal keyboards that they design and build their own, sometimes spending hundreds of dollars on custom parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lately though, the industry has been hitting some serious roadblocks. In this episode Morgan examines how the mechanical keyboard craze took off, and why it may now be starting to fade. We’ll hear from creators about how tariffs and the end of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">de minimis\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> rule are affecting everyone — from consumers to indie designers, to content creators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7054753045\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/enomooshikey/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank Lee\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, keyboard streamer and organizer of KeebLife\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/c/hipyotech\">Hipyo Tech\u003c/a>, YouTube creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@SwitchandClickOfficial\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty Van\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, YouTube creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/29/21112581/taeha-types-mechanical-keyboards-custom-twitch-tfue-fortnite-streaming\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Twitch streamer behind Tfue’s custom $3,500 mechanical keyboard \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Nick Statt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/04/looming-tariffs-are-making-it-extra-hard-to-be-a-tech-geek/\">Looming tariffs are making it extra hard to be a tech geek \u003c/a>— Scharon Harding, \u003ci>Ars Technica\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Kaylee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each of these are all linear switches, but this one has the deepest sound, my cat keyboard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kaylee, a mechanical keyboard builder and content creator who also goes by Sad Girl Types. She’s showing me one of her favorite builds, a cat-themed keyboard complete with a fuzzy calico cover. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has fur on it, so you can pet it. It is the color of a calico cat, and all of the keycaps are also calico colored. Yeah, that’s it. It’s a cat keyboard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently spent my Saturday afternoon wandering around a crowded convention hall ballroom, tapping and typing on so many keyboards that I lost count. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Typing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was Keeb Life, an annual meetup for custom mechanical keyboard enthusiasts. On the edges of the ballroom, vendors sold unique keycaps and switches and other keyboard accessories. In the center of the room were rows and rows of folding tables, where attendees showed off their own custom builds. Each keyboard was accompanied by a card labeled with the builder’s Discord username and the details of their keyboard, literally down to each individual part. The cards also noted whether attendees were allowed to touch and pick up the keyboard. Each board was unique, and I tried almost all of them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In case you haven’t noticed, Close All Tabs has a running bit about mechanical keyboards. At the end of each episode, we credit the keyboards that we use whenever we open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan in clips from previous episodes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white EpoMaker High 75 keyboard….white and blue Epo-Maker Aula F99 keyboard…Gateron Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: We have fun here. The mechanical keyboard hobby took off in the mainstream fairly recently. From the satisfying ASMR typing videos to lull you to sleep, to the enviable color-coordinated custom builds all over Instagram, to the endless budget keyboard reviews that flood your For You page, mechanical keyboards are the content gift that keeps on giving. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been in a Keeb renaissance between the content and the sheer amount of affordable keyboard products on the market. But the mechanical keyboard market is changing, which means the whole hobby is changing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re jumping into the world of mechanical keyboards. Where did this hobby come from? Why are people so into it anyway? And what’s up with the tariffs? Buckle up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how this goes. Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to build a mechanical keyboard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name is Wonho Frank Lee and I love custom mechanical keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Frank often jokes that his photography career funds his mechanical keyboard hobby. He’s designed and built dozens of keyboards for his friends, for his fellow enthusiasts that he met online, and of course, for himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m ashamed to say this, but I have over 30 keyboards. So it’s not just about… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I only have four, so…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey\u003c/span>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Four is great! People talk about, like, why are we spending so much money on the keyboard? And I just usually tell them, like how much of your day do you really sit in front of the computer and use your keyboard? Like how much time are you actually typing? Do you think you spend more time on your keyboard or in your car? If you’re going to spend a lot of time on it, might as well make it fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank also organizes KeebLife, the annual mechanical keyboard meetup I went to. And the rest of the year, he streams his builds on Twitch and runs Keeblife’s Discord server. His fellow enthusiasts have been called keebeheads, mechies, keebers, typebeasts, mechheads, keyaboos, and many, many more names. No matter what they’re called, this hobby is very community oriented. People turn to each other for advice, reviews, and to go in on group buys. Those are like mini Kickstarters for small batches of products. People pay up front, and sometimes it can take more than six months of manufacturing and shipping before they receive it. But for a lot of Keebheads, the exclusivity of getting a limited edition small batch keyboard makes the wait worth it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also the big keyboard subreddit, r/MechanicalKeyboards, with more than 1.3 million members. And then more niche ones, like r/keebgirlies, r/BudgetKeebs, and the myriad of mechanical keyboard subreddits for specific countries. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank, for one, got into it in 2020 through a friend who is also a keyboard builder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was really into custom keyboards. He was getting into it too at the time. I kind of scoffed at it, like, why would you want to spend so much money on a keyboard? Like, I got a keyboard that works, that’s fine. But as I was part of his Discord server, and he was just always talking about keyboards with other people, I was like, ooh, okay, that kind of cool. Maybe I’ll get something. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He bought a very basic secondhand keyboard. Nothing special, but he customized it with some cheap knockoff Star Wars themed keycaps. The friend who introduced him to keyboards helped him add a few other custom parts. And that’s when Frank got really into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seeing how he built it, how he soldered everything, it really got me like, excited. I’m like, oh my god, that’s kind of cool. The whole process of it was more exciting than the keyboard itself at one point. And as someone who loves Lego, uh, there was like a, oh wow, this is another level. Like, you can put things together. You just feel very accomplished afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mechanical keyboards are known for their onomatopoeia labels, like the very popular creamy boards. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The deeper, reverberating thocky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The bright, bouncy poppy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even lighter, staccato clicky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the loud, ostentatious clacky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they all sounded the same to you, you might just not be deep enough into the hobby yet. But Frank fell in love with the idea of chasing these sounds. He had a small following on Twitch from building Legos on stream during quarantine. So when Frank built his first ever mechanical keyboard from scratch, he did it over the course of a four hour live stream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was also getting a lot of help from the community members who were in the chat too. But once I was done, when I was doing the typing on stream, man…felt good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since then, Frank has built countless custom mechanical keyboards and he gave me a quick keyboard 101. There are a lot of components in a keyboard, all of which can affect the final sound and feel of the board. But let’s hit the highlights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s start with the size: full boards have 104 keys, including a number pad on the side. But most people don’t use that, so they opt for smaller sizes. 75% boards are especially popular since they drop the number pad and a few other lesser used keys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The benefit of this is you get more desk space. Now, why is that important? Well, gamers like to move their mouse quite a lot. And the keyboard layout gets even smaller than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a 60% board which drops the arrow keys. Then they get smaller and even more compact. Sometimes to the point of absurdity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve even seen like 10%, which is almost a joke. But some people kind of use it as a challenge, which is also kind of a fun thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keycaps are usually the first thing you notice about a keyboard. A lot of the builder’s personality shines through the keycaps, like the color combinations they use. The keycap profile or the way that it’s shaped and angled toward the typer also affects how comfortable the board is to use. At the heart of the board are the switches, the mechanical, spring-loaded part that tells your computer that you just pressed a key. The most popular ones are called linear. They’re smooth and ideal for really fast typing. Tactile switches require some more force to press, but a lot of people find that feedback satisfying. Then there’s Frank’s favorite: clicky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here we go. I’m going to click it for you guys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like higher pitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It clicks higher pitch. And the difference between this switch and, for example, the MX Blue is MX Blue only clicks when you press it down. This one clicks both way up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clicking sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how did this hobby get so big in the first place? That’s a new tab, but we’ll save opening that for after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when did mechanical keyboards become such a thing? Time for a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The golden age of keyboard content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The mechanical keyboard hobby would not be as popular as it is today without YouTube. So to guide us through this part of the deep dive is a YouTuber who has a lot of keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Hipyo Tech. I am a keyboard content creator and general tech creator, YouTuber, whatever you want to call it. I’ve spent the last five years making videos and making custom keyboards and teaching the whole entire world how they could get into this crazy weird niche of a hobby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so I am going to ask you a bit of a personal question, so I hope you’re ready. How many keyboards do you have? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dang! Um, right now? Probably about 200. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that’s because like at the end of last year, I got rid of about 80. So…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is you paring down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is me pretty paired down, but usually five to six keyboards end up at my door. Like you can see there’s a pile of keyboards behind me in my video. These just arrived this week. And yeah, it’s it’s almost a nightmare, but really cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Building and modifying mechanical keyboards was once a relatively niche hobby. In the 1990s tech companies had phased out mechanical keyboards and rolled out cheaper, sleeker versions. Those had a squishy rubber dome under each key instead of springs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The original key heads sought to recreate the experience of using vintage keyboards. By the early 2000s, mechanical keyboard parts hit the markets and enthusiasts got really into experimenting with different materials to optimize the sound. Then in the 2010s, gaming companies rolled out pre-built mechanical keyboards, which were designed for more satisfying tactile feedback while furiously gaming. Keyboard hobbyists started going in on group buys together. Mechanical keyboards gained popularity as people flocked to blogs and then reddit to trade notes. Creators built a steady audience on YouTube and Twitch, where they documented their custom builds. Typing ASMR became a thriving genre of content. But it was pricey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back then, all the parts needed for a custom mechanical keyboard, from the circuitry to the switches, could cost around $600. And that didn’t even include the labor costs involved in putting it together. The hobby wasn’t exactly mainstream until five years ago. And then it blew up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TaehaTypes in Clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the typing test of Tfue’s multi-thousand dollar keyboard. [Typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In January 2020, YouTuber TaehaTypes streams the process of building a custom luxury mechanical keyboard for Tfue, a Fortnite streamer. The keyboard was housed in an iridescent aluminum and stainless steel frame that flashed fuchsia and cerulean and electric purple. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the stream, Taeha donned a delicate set of cloth gloves to unbox the casing from the manufacturer’s packaging. He meticulously lubed components with a thin paintbrush. Then with tranquil jazz playing in the background, he pulled out slender, angled tweezers and talked viewers through the process of preparing the circuit board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TaehaTypes in Clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m going across the PCB and I am essentially closing the loop between the switch. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watching the precision involved in building the board was mesmerizing. And then Taeha posted an ASMR video featuring him typing on the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing Sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people had never heard anything like it. Frank Lee, who we heard from earlier, said that was the moment that mechanical keyboards went mainstream. And Hipyo pointed out that Taeha’s glitzy keyboard introduced a whole new audience to the hobby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was the spark where it was like, he had started to get big at the perfect point to just pull everybody into the hobby. He was almost everybody’s like, first, like, oh, whoa, keyboards are cool kind of moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty Van, another keyboard YouTuber who runs a channel, Switch and Click, also pointed to that same moment in internet history\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the Fortnite players learning about that keyboard and then 60% keyboards becoming more popular with gamers, too like that started this big thing of like keyboards for gamers. But also people started working from home, so keyboards for office people. It’s like two groups at once that it’s just really big. It’s like an explosion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s Hipyo again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, everybody was like, wait, you can have a keyboard that sounds good, started funneling into the hobby, which kind of boosted up all of these burgeoning creators who are just kind of into this weird niche and making videos. So 2021, there was tons of creators that got the YouTube algorithm rocket, we were all making videos together. It was insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like when you first got into it in 2020, a lot of the hobby was more about tinkering, customizing, and it seems now a lot more of it is like collecting. Was it always that way or is it, is that relatively new? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of shifted a little bit more consumer-y, which is kind of a bummer because the tinkering was the funnest aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Manufacturers in China noticed the uptick in mechanical keyboard interest and started to produce pre-built keyboards designed and assembled en masse in-house. So instead of spending upwards of $700 on custom parts to build their own, buyers could now grab a decent one off the shelf for $200. All they had to do was plug it in. Here’s Frank again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That movement really changed everything since then, in my opinion. The custom keyboard hobby that I knew and I got into has shrunk quite a bit in a sense because of so many keyboards that are coming in now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Hippio said this shift also affected the kind of content people want to watch. When he started out on YouTube in 2020, his videos ranged from in-depth switch reviews to building keyboards with wacky modifications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Hipyo Tech in clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re filling this bad boy with some Play-Doh, which I don’t necessarily recommend, but I felt like doing it. So here we are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now, people aren’t as interested in building a keyboard from scratch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What made keyboards so interesting as a hobby is that they were fundamentally flawed. Like, people hadn’t quite figured out how to make the aluminum cases not sound really pingy and terrible, or they hadn’t figured out factory lubrication on switches that made them feel really smooth and buttery. So you kind of had to do all that stuff yourself, where it’s like people had figured out, hey, if I take this switch apart and I spend four hours lubing a whole batch of switches, my keyboard will sound and feel better. That was like a really great way to get you in like engaging in the hobby and tinkering with like, oh, maybe this lube will feel different. Or maybe if I swap this spring out, my switch will feel differently. And most of that’s been solved now at like, the production level, where you could buy a keyboard for 100 bucks nowadays that would give you a better experience than a keyboard that might have cost you 400 bucks back in 2020. It’s like, it’s almost solved in a weird way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, obviously, the tinkering aspect is a huge part of your content and also your creator origin story. How do you feel about that part of the hobby becoming less popular? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s really bittersweet. Like, I mean, you spend five years screaming at brands to make better keyboards and you’re tinkering with keyboards to make them better. And then suddenly they’re all listening, which means that you don’t need to tinker with keyboards. It like, it’s everything that I was asking for brands are now doing like, even Asus and Razer and Corsair, like all of these huge gaming brands where I’m like talking to their teams behind the scenes. You guys, if you literally just got one machine that could lubricate your switches, they’d be so much better. And they’re like, oh, no, it’s not, there’s no demand. And suddenly they’re doing it now. It’s like, wait, I hurt myself. Like, there’s still people out there that are really passionately modding keyboards. But for the vast majority of people now, there’s like almost no point. So it’s really bittersweet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty has actually shifted the content of her channel entirely. One of the main reasons is this dip in custom keyboard popularity. She still makes keyboard videos, but the videos that do well are typically reviews of pre-built budget keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like economically, there’s been less views on just specific keyboard content. Like before, if some company released a keyboard and we talked about it, it would get more views and more people would buy it or there’d be more interest in the product. But nowadays, I think everyone already has a good enough keyboard that they’re not necessarily interested in looking for their next upgrade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">there’s another factor that complicates just about everything in the hobby. It’s another reason Betty’s team has switched to more general tech content. Tariffs. One more tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is de minimis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, following what President Trump dubbed Liberation Day, all imports into the US were slapped with a minimum 10% tariff. It’s been months of back and forth with other countries of retaliatory fees and tenuous deals and debates over the legality of all of this. But throughout it all, there was still the de minimis exemption. That’s a special rule, which said that shipments valued under a certain amount could enter the US without tariffs or much oversight. Until recently, that threshold was $800. But that rule ended August 29th of this year, which means that buying anything from abroad just got a lot more expensive. And it’s consumers and business owners taking the hit. Because of the uncertainty, many companies paused all shipping to the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At KeebLife, I talked to a keyboard enthusiast who goes by Jazzzster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jazzzster\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was actually visiting China recently. I actually asked the person that was designing the board…I was like, can I pick up this keyboard, since I’m here? I know that you’re not shipping it out to people in the US, but can you help me have the keyboard now?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, so you bought, you like preordered it in the U.S. and then… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jazzzster\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I was, like, I think it’s going to be done being manufactured about right now, right? I’m luckily here at the same time. Can I pick it up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The keyboard brand Osume also suspended U.S. orders in February. The company is based in Canada and warned customers that existing shipments could be hit with an additional 10 to 35 percent tariff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clement Cheung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was basically almost impossible to have our products delivered from Canada to the States. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Clement Cheung, Osume’s revenue analyst. In August, the company opened a special U.S. based warehouse and resumed shipping to American customers. The caveat? They had to raise prices. A keyboard that used to be $170 is now $220. Although the U.S. Warehouse has worked out so far, Clement said moving manufacturing from China to the U.S. just to avoid tariffs would be very unrealistic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clement Cheung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">China has years of experience building and manufacturing keycaps in a really specific environment. And that environment changes everything about a keyboard: the sound, the quality, as well as the longevity. Compared to if we were to do it in the States, to replicate that consistency and quality is very difficult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Newbies, custom DIYers, and the vast majority of mechanical keyboard enthusiasts still rely on products made in China. Now, it’s further complicated by the end of de minimis. Those extra fees can make a reasonably priced purchase suddenly unaffordable. Some consumers have paid more in tariffs than what they paid for the item itself. It’s really affecting independent designers, like Frank, who designed a custom keyboard as a passion project. He sourced a vendor in China to help with manufacturing all the parts, set up a group buy, and found a few other enthusiasts to go in on it. The tariff announcement came in just before they started production. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For some people, $300 for this particular keyboard sounded really good value. But if they end up having to pay 400 bucks, it’s not really a good value anymore. So who takes the hit in that case, you know? And in a smaller group buy, like me, where I literally have just over 100 units sold, that impact is even bigger. Because I wasn’t doing this to make money to begin with. If I get hit with this, I don’t have a lot of buffer to pay for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some small batch keyboards don’t even make it to the market, or they’re hit with long delays, like one brand that Betty recently tried to work with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this one moment where we were going to cover a keyboard that was going to launch on Kickstarter. And the brand had told us, like, this is going to release on this date. So we scheduled our video like, right before the date that it would launch. But it didn’t launch because the tariffs were announced and they were like, we’re going to push back the launch. But we released the video anyways, and that video didn’t do as well, mostly because, well, no one could buy the keyboard, for one. So it was like a really unquestionable time in this space. So like there’s been internal discussions on our team about like, hey, we need to branch out. Like we need to experiment with our content to find something else that’s going to hit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hipyo said these\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">unpredictable extra fees have been devastating for the hobby, which was built on group buys and supporting other enthusiasts’ creativity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The de minimis exemption allowed a lot of these small brands to start up. You could buy a keyboard. It would ship to you. No import tariffs. So great! What a novel idea. And now I’ve heard from, I talked to a couple big companies that I worked with before, like, this interview, just to see, like, how is this affecting you guys? It was way worse than I thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How so? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they’re having so many customers just deny packages and return packages because the customer doesn’t know what tariffs they’re going to be paying. The brand doesn’t how much in tariffs the customers are going to be paying. There’s some people getting hit with a $150 tariffs on a $100 keyboard order. Like that…that doesn’t make any sense! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. How is it affecting creators like yourself specifically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For me this year, like I’ve had many, many sponsors tell me, like, hey, we just don’t have the budget for videos anymore because we had to spend all of our budget on paying import taxes to start up U.S. Warehouses because a lot of these companies are like ‘we have to start a U. S. Warehouse because nobody’s going to buy our products and pay these tariffs.’ And there’s so many unknowns floating around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But on top of that, I mean, I personally paid, I think over three thousand dollars in tariffs this year …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …just from brands sending me unsolicited keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know it’s coming, but then I get hit with, ‘oh, hey, DHL says you have to pay $150 to get this keyboard’…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and they’re like declaring real…yeah. So for me it’s I mean, it’s business expense, whatever. But yeah, it it’s real. It’s very real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, with the current economic climate, with a state of tariffs, like with what consumers are looking for now, like, is that affecting your content and the kind of videos you’re making? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I mean, I can tell you from my personal experience, like, if I make a video on a keyboard that’s more than $100, way less interest than if it’s a budget focused keyboard, because in general, consumers are just feeling really, really strained right now. And that’s ignoring tariffs. Like, that’s just focusing on stuff from Amazon because in general, now somebody doesn’t want to buy a keyboard from China if it means that they’re going to get hit with these tariffs. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s truly a nightmare for so many small businesses. Like, it’s insane. It’s made it so small businesses can’t experiment very much because you have to just really play it safe. Like we used to experiment by having a ton of different key cap sets and a ton of different desk mats, and it didn’t matter as much what did great because like, everything kept the boat floating. But when the stakes are like so much higher now, it’s reducing innovation. It’s adding so much more uncertainty. And like there’s been a couple other keyboard companies that are like, ‘we might just pull out like we might just stop making keyboards.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I can’t say those brands. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because everything is moving toward pre-built and all that and like, there’s less incentive to innovate. Do you think people will go back to that kind of mentality of tinkering and of customizing because the companies aren’t willing to take risks anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really hope so. Like, I hope it’s kind of cyclical where it’s like people will go back to just like, having a little bit less options and kind of enjoying the craft of it more because building keyboards is still so fun. And the idea of customizing a tool that you use every day is so fulfilling. But like, when all of the economic forces are kind of making you buy a pre-built keyboard, it’s, you don’t really have a choice. So I really do hope that it moves that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the custom keyboard world, people are always searching for their endgame: the keyboard that’s so perfect, so tailored to their specific preferences that they’ll never have to buy or build another keyboard again. It’s a constant process of trial and error and experimenting with different modifications. A lot of hobbyists have put that endgame hunt on hold thanks to the tariffs and uncertainty of trade relations. Frank, for one, is over the idea of chasing an endgame. For now, he’s finding joy in the collection that he already has. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The beauty of custom is that you can have so many different kinds of things, not just one thing that you just like. And I love that. So I have a bunch of different layouts, different colors and keycaps. I have different switches and typing feels on all my keyboards. I have a rotation. I go through every day, I kind of change up, that’s like, one of my rituals. Like before I get to my computer, I bring out another keyboard. Oh, yeah, I feel like using this. There’s really no endgame for me. I would say my goal is to always have a collection that I am very happy with. And I’m kind of happy with that right now. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether your keeb is a luxury custom build or a pre-built budget find, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Sound design by Chris Egusa, additional music by APM, audio engineering by Brendan Willard and Brian Douglas. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. Keyboard sounds in this episode were submitted by Frank Lee, including his Geonwerks F1-K Bingsu Edition, DNworks Ryujin and HHHH Salamander PC keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know it’s a podcast cliche, but it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Clacky,” “Poppy,” and “Thocky” may sound like the latest cereal elves, but they’re actually terms to describe the sounds of typing on a mechanical keyboard. What started as a niche hobby blew up during the pandemic, with a huge influx of creators posting tutorials, reviews, and soothing ASMR videos on social media. Many hobbyists are so enthusiastic about achieving the perfect sound, feel and response from their personal keyboards that they design and build their own, sometimes spending hundreds of dollars on custom parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lately though, the industry has been hitting some serious roadblocks. In this episode Morgan examines how the mechanical keyboard craze took off, and why it may now be starting to fade. We’ll hear from creators about how tariffs and the end of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">de minimis\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> rule are affecting everyone — from consumers to indie designers, to content creators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7054753045\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/enomooshikey/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank Lee\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, keyboard streamer and organizer of KeebLife\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/c/hipyotech\">Hipyo Tech\u003c/a>, YouTube creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@SwitchandClickOfficial\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty Van\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, YouTube creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/29/21112581/taeha-types-mechanical-keyboards-custom-twitch-tfue-fortnite-streaming\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Twitch streamer behind Tfue’s custom $3,500 mechanical keyboard \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Nick Statt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/04/looming-tariffs-are-making-it-extra-hard-to-be-a-tech-geek/\">Looming tariffs are making it extra hard to be a tech geek \u003c/a>— Scharon Harding, \u003ci>Ars Technica\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Kaylee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each of these are all linear switches, but this one has the deepest sound, my cat keyboard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kaylee, a mechanical keyboard builder and content creator who also goes by Sad Girl Types. She’s showing me one of her favorite builds, a cat-themed keyboard complete with a fuzzy calico cover. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has fur on it, so you can pet it. It is the color of a calico cat, and all of the keycaps are also calico colored. Yeah, that’s it. It’s a cat keyboard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently spent my Saturday afternoon wandering around a crowded convention hall ballroom, tapping and typing on so many keyboards that I lost count. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Typing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was Keeb Life, an annual meetup for custom mechanical keyboard enthusiasts. On the edges of the ballroom, vendors sold unique keycaps and switches and other keyboard accessories. In the center of the room were rows and rows of folding tables, where attendees showed off their own custom builds. Each keyboard was accompanied by a card labeled with the builder’s Discord username and the details of their keyboard, literally down to each individual part. The cards also noted whether attendees were allowed to touch and pick up the keyboard. Each board was unique, and I tried almost all of them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In case you haven’t noticed, Close All Tabs has a running bit about mechanical keyboards. At the end of each episode, we credit the keyboards that we use whenever we open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan in clips from previous episodes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white EpoMaker High 75 keyboard….white and blue Epo-Maker Aula F99 keyboard…Gateron Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: We have fun here. The mechanical keyboard hobby took off in the mainstream fairly recently. From the satisfying ASMR typing videos to lull you to sleep, to the enviable color-coordinated custom builds all over Instagram, to the endless budget keyboard reviews that flood your For You page, mechanical keyboards are the content gift that keeps on giving. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been in a Keeb renaissance between the content and the sheer amount of affordable keyboard products on the market. But the mechanical keyboard market is changing, which means the whole hobby is changing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re jumping into the world of mechanical keyboards. Where did this hobby come from? Why are people so into it anyway? And what’s up with the tariffs? Buckle up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how this goes. Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to build a mechanical keyboard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name is Wonho Frank Lee and I love custom mechanical keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Frank often jokes that his photography career funds his mechanical keyboard hobby. He’s designed and built dozens of keyboards for his friends, for his fellow enthusiasts that he met online, and of course, for himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m ashamed to say this, but I have over 30 keyboards. So it’s not just about… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I only have four, so…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey\u003c/span>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Four is great! People talk about, like, why are we spending so much money on the keyboard? And I just usually tell them, like how much of your day do you really sit in front of the computer and use your keyboard? Like how much time are you actually typing? Do you think you spend more time on your keyboard or in your car? If you’re going to spend a lot of time on it, might as well make it fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank also organizes KeebLife, the annual mechanical keyboard meetup I went to. And the rest of the year, he streams his builds on Twitch and runs Keeblife’s Discord server. His fellow enthusiasts have been called keebeheads, mechies, keebers, typebeasts, mechheads, keyaboos, and many, many more names. No matter what they’re called, this hobby is very community oriented. People turn to each other for advice, reviews, and to go in on group buys. Those are like mini Kickstarters for small batches of products. People pay up front, and sometimes it can take more than six months of manufacturing and shipping before they receive it. But for a lot of Keebheads, the exclusivity of getting a limited edition small batch keyboard makes the wait worth it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also the big keyboard subreddit, r/MechanicalKeyboards, with more than 1.3 million members. And then more niche ones, like r/keebgirlies, r/BudgetKeebs, and the myriad of mechanical keyboard subreddits for specific countries. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank, for one, got into it in 2020 through a friend who is also a keyboard builder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was really into custom keyboards. He was getting into it too at the time. I kind of scoffed at it, like, why would you want to spend so much money on a keyboard? Like, I got a keyboard that works, that’s fine. But as I was part of his Discord server, and he was just always talking about keyboards with other people, I was like, ooh, okay, that kind of cool. Maybe I’ll get something. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He bought a very basic secondhand keyboard. Nothing special, but he customized it with some cheap knockoff Star Wars themed keycaps. The friend who introduced him to keyboards helped him add a few other custom parts. And that’s when Frank got really into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seeing how he built it, how he soldered everything, it really got me like, excited. I’m like, oh my god, that’s kind of cool. The whole process of it was more exciting than the keyboard itself at one point. And as someone who loves Lego, uh, there was like a, oh wow, this is another level. Like, you can put things together. You just feel very accomplished afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mechanical keyboards are known for their onomatopoeia labels, like the very popular creamy boards. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The deeper, reverberating thocky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The bright, bouncy poppy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even lighter, staccato clicky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the loud, ostentatious clacky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they all sounded the same to you, you might just not be deep enough into the hobby yet. But Frank fell in love with the idea of chasing these sounds. He had a small following on Twitch from building Legos on stream during quarantine. So when Frank built his first ever mechanical keyboard from scratch, he did it over the course of a four hour live stream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was also getting a lot of help from the community members who were in the chat too. But once I was done, when I was doing the typing on stream, man…felt good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since then, Frank has built countless custom mechanical keyboards and he gave me a quick keyboard 101. There are a lot of components in a keyboard, all of which can affect the final sound and feel of the board. But let’s hit the highlights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s start with the size: full boards have 104 keys, including a number pad on the side. But most people don’t use that, so they opt for smaller sizes. 75% boards are especially popular since they drop the number pad and a few other lesser used keys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The benefit of this is you get more desk space. Now, why is that important? Well, gamers like to move their mouse quite a lot. And the keyboard layout gets even smaller than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a 60% board which drops the arrow keys. Then they get smaller and even more compact. Sometimes to the point of absurdity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve even seen like 10%, which is almost a joke. But some people kind of use it as a challenge, which is also kind of a fun thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keycaps are usually the first thing you notice about a keyboard. A lot of the builder’s personality shines through the keycaps, like the color combinations they use. The keycap profile or the way that it’s shaped and angled toward the typer also affects how comfortable the board is to use. At the heart of the board are the switches, the mechanical, spring-loaded part that tells your computer that you just pressed a key. The most popular ones are called linear. They’re smooth and ideal for really fast typing. Tactile switches require some more force to press, but a lot of people find that feedback satisfying. Then there’s Frank’s favorite: clicky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here we go. I’m going to click it for you guys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like higher pitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It clicks higher pitch. And the difference between this switch and, for example, the MX Blue is MX Blue only clicks when you press it down. This one clicks both way up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clicking sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how did this hobby get so big in the first place? That’s a new tab, but we’ll save opening that for after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when did mechanical keyboards become such a thing? Time for a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The golden age of keyboard content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The mechanical keyboard hobby would not be as popular as it is today without YouTube. So to guide us through this part of the deep dive is a YouTuber who has a lot of keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Hipyo Tech. I am a keyboard content creator and general tech creator, YouTuber, whatever you want to call it. I’ve spent the last five years making videos and making custom keyboards and teaching the whole entire world how they could get into this crazy weird niche of a hobby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so I am going to ask you a bit of a personal question, so I hope you’re ready. How many keyboards do you have? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dang! Um, right now? Probably about 200. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that’s because like at the end of last year, I got rid of about 80. So…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is you paring down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is me pretty paired down, but usually five to six keyboards end up at my door. Like you can see there’s a pile of keyboards behind me in my video. These just arrived this week. And yeah, it’s it’s almost a nightmare, but really cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Building and modifying mechanical keyboards was once a relatively niche hobby. In the 1990s tech companies had phased out mechanical keyboards and rolled out cheaper, sleeker versions. Those had a squishy rubber dome under each key instead of springs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The original key heads sought to recreate the experience of using vintage keyboards. By the early 2000s, mechanical keyboard parts hit the markets and enthusiasts got really into experimenting with different materials to optimize the sound. Then in the 2010s, gaming companies rolled out pre-built mechanical keyboards, which were designed for more satisfying tactile feedback while furiously gaming. Keyboard hobbyists started going in on group buys together. Mechanical keyboards gained popularity as people flocked to blogs and then reddit to trade notes. Creators built a steady audience on YouTube and Twitch, where they documented their custom builds. Typing ASMR became a thriving genre of content. But it was pricey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back then, all the parts needed for a custom mechanical keyboard, from the circuitry to the switches, could cost around $600. And that didn’t even include the labor costs involved in putting it together. The hobby wasn’t exactly mainstream until five years ago. And then it blew up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TaehaTypes in Clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the typing test of Tfue’s multi-thousand dollar keyboard. [Typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In January 2020, YouTuber TaehaTypes streams the process of building a custom luxury mechanical keyboard for Tfue, a Fortnite streamer. The keyboard was housed in an iridescent aluminum and stainless steel frame that flashed fuchsia and cerulean and electric purple. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the stream, Taeha donned a delicate set of cloth gloves to unbox the casing from the manufacturer’s packaging. He meticulously lubed components with a thin paintbrush. Then with tranquil jazz playing in the background, he pulled out slender, angled tweezers and talked viewers through the process of preparing the circuit board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TaehaTypes in Clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m going across the PCB and I am essentially closing the loop between the switch. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watching the precision involved in building the board was mesmerizing. And then Taeha posted an ASMR video featuring him typing on the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing Sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people had never heard anything like it. Frank Lee, who we heard from earlier, said that was the moment that mechanical keyboards went mainstream. And Hipyo pointed out that Taeha’s glitzy keyboard introduced a whole new audience to the hobby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was the spark where it was like, he had started to get big at the perfect point to just pull everybody into the hobby. He was almost everybody’s like, first, like, oh, whoa, keyboards are cool kind of moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty Van, another keyboard YouTuber who runs a channel, Switch and Click, also pointed to that same moment in internet history\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the Fortnite players learning about that keyboard and then 60% keyboards becoming more popular with gamers, too like that started this big thing of like keyboards for gamers. But also people started working from home, so keyboards for office people. It’s like two groups at once that it’s just really big. It’s like an explosion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s Hipyo again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, everybody was like, wait, you can have a keyboard that sounds good, started funneling into the hobby, which kind of boosted up all of these burgeoning creators who are just kind of into this weird niche and making videos. So 2021, there was tons of creators that got the YouTube algorithm rocket, we were all making videos together. It was insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like when you first got into it in 2020, a lot of the hobby was more about tinkering, customizing, and it seems now a lot more of it is like collecting. Was it always that way or is it, is that relatively new? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of shifted a little bit more consumer-y, which is kind of a bummer because the tinkering was the funnest aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Manufacturers in China noticed the uptick in mechanical keyboard interest and started to produce pre-built keyboards designed and assembled en masse in-house. So instead of spending upwards of $700 on custom parts to build their own, buyers could now grab a decent one off the shelf for $200. All they had to do was plug it in. Here’s Frank again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That movement really changed everything since then, in my opinion. The custom keyboard hobby that I knew and I got into has shrunk quite a bit in a sense because of so many keyboards that are coming in now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Hippio said this shift also affected the kind of content people want to watch. When he started out on YouTube in 2020, his videos ranged from in-depth switch reviews to building keyboards with wacky modifications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Hipyo Tech in clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re filling this bad boy with some Play-Doh, which I don’t necessarily recommend, but I felt like doing it. So here we are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now, people aren’t as interested in building a keyboard from scratch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What made keyboards so interesting as a hobby is that they were fundamentally flawed. Like, people hadn’t quite figured out how to make the aluminum cases not sound really pingy and terrible, or they hadn’t figured out factory lubrication on switches that made them feel really smooth and buttery. So you kind of had to do all that stuff yourself, where it’s like people had figured out, hey, if I take this switch apart and I spend four hours lubing a whole batch of switches, my keyboard will sound and feel better. That was like a really great way to get you in like engaging in the hobby and tinkering with like, oh, maybe this lube will feel different. Or maybe if I swap this spring out, my switch will feel differently. And most of that’s been solved now at like, the production level, where you could buy a keyboard for 100 bucks nowadays that would give you a better experience than a keyboard that might have cost you 400 bucks back in 2020. It’s like, it’s almost solved in a weird way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, obviously, the tinkering aspect is a huge part of your content and also your creator origin story. How do you feel about that part of the hobby becoming less popular? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s really bittersweet. Like, I mean, you spend five years screaming at brands to make better keyboards and you’re tinkering with keyboards to make them better. And then suddenly they’re all listening, which means that you don’t need to tinker with keyboards. It like, it’s everything that I was asking for brands are now doing like, even Asus and Razer and Corsair, like all of these huge gaming brands where I’m like talking to their teams behind the scenes. You guys, if you literally just got one machine that could lubricate your switches, they’d be so much better. And they’re like, oh, no, it’s not, there’s no demand. And suddenly they’re doing it now. It’s like, wait, I hurt myself. Like, there’s still people out there that are really passionately modding keyboards. But for the vast majority of people now, there’s like almost no point. So it’s really bittersweet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty has actually shifted the content of her channel entirely. One of the main reasons is this dip in custom keyboard popularity. She still makes keyboard videos, but the videos that do well are typically reviews of pre-built budget keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like economically, there’s been less views on just specific keyboard content. Like before, if some company released a keyboard and we talked about it, it would get more views and more people would buy it or there’d be more interest in the product. But nowadays, I think everyone already has a good enough keyboard that they’re not necessarily interested in looking for their next upgrade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">there’s another factor that complicates just about everything in the hobby. It’s another reason Betty’s team has switched to more general tech content. Tariffs. One more tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is de minimis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, following what President Trump dubbed Liberation Day, all imports into the US were slapped with a minimum 10% tariff. It’s been months of back and forth with other countries of retaliatory fees and tenuous deals and debates over the legality of all of this. But throughout it all, there was still the de minimis exemption. That’s a special rule, which said that shipments valued under a certain amount could enter the US without tariffs or much oversight. Until recently, that threshold was $800. But that rule ended August 29th of this year, which means that buying anything from abroad just got a lot more expensive. And it’s consumers and business owners taking the hit. Because of the uncertainty, many companies paused all shipping to the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At KeebLife, I talked to a keyboard enthusiast who goes by Jazzzster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jazzzster\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was actually visiting China recently. I actually asked the person that was designing the board…I was like, can I pick up this keyboard, since I’m here? I know that you’re not shipping it out to people in the US, but can you help me have the keyboard now?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, so you bought, you like preordered it in the U.S. and then… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jazzzster\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I was, like, I think it’s going to be done being manufactured about right now, right? I’m luckily here at the same time. Can I pick it up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The keyboard brand Osume also suspended U.S. orders in February. The company is based in Canada and warned customers that existing shipments could be hit with an additional 10 to 35 percent tariff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clement Cheung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was basically almost impossible to have our products delivered from Canada to the States. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Clement Cheung, Osume’s revenue analyst. In August, the company opened a special U.S. based warehouse and resumed shipping to American customers. The caveat? They had to raise prices. A keyboard that used to be $170 is now $220. Although the U.S. Warehouse has worked out so far, Clement said moving manufacturing from China to the U.S. just to avoid tariffs would be very unrealistic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clement Cheung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">China has years of experience building and manufacturing keycaps in a really specific environment. And that environment changes everything about a keyboard: the sound, the quality, as well as the longevity. Compared to if we were to do it in the States, to replicate that consistency and quality is very difficult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Newbies, custom DIYers, and the vast majority of mechanical keyboard enthusiasts still rely on products made in China. Now, it’s further complicated by the end of de minimis. Those extra fees can make a reasonably priced purchase suddenly unaffordable. Some consumers have paid more in tariffs than what they paid for the item itself. It’s really affecting independent designers, like Frank, who designed a custom keyboard as a passion project. He sourced a vendor in China to help with manufacturing all the parts, set up a group buy, and found a few other enthusiasts to go in on it. The tariff announcement came in just before they started production. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For some people, $300 for this particular keyboard sounded really good value. But if they end up having to pay 400 bucks, it’s not really a good value anymore. So who takes the hit in that case, you know? And in a smaller group buy, like me, where I literally have just over 100 units sold, that impact is even bigger. Because I wasn’t doing this to make money to begin with. If I get hit with this, I don’t have a lot of buffer to pay for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some small batch keyboards don’t even make it to the market, or they’re hit with long delays, like one brand that Betty recently tried to work with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this one moment where we were going to cover a keyboard that was going to launch on Kickstarter. And the brand had told us, like, this is going to release on this date. So we scheduled our video like, right before the date that it would launch. But it didn’t launch because the tariffs were announced and they were like, we’re going to push back the launch. But we released the video anyways, and that video didn’t do as well, mostly because, well, no one could buy the keyboard, for one. So it was like a really unquestionable time in this space. So like there’s been internal discussions on our team about like, hey, we need to branch out. Like we need to experiment with our content to find something else that’s going to hit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hipyo said these\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">unpredictable extra fees have been devastating for the hobby, which was built on group buys and supporting other enthusiasts’ creativity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The de minimis exemption allowed a lot of these small brands to start up. You could buy a keyboard. It would ship to you. No import tariffs. So great! What a novel idea. And now I’ve heard from, I talked to a couple big companies that I worked with before, like, this interview, just to see, like, how is this affecting you guys? It was way worse than I thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How so? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they’re having so many customers just deny packages and return packages because the customer doesn’t know what tariffs they’re going to be paying. The brand doesn’t how much in tariffs the customers are going to be paying. There’s some people getting hit with a $150 tariffs on a $100 keyboard order. Like that…that doesn’t make any sense! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. How is it affecting creators like yourself specifically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For me this year, like I’ve had many, many sponsors tell me, like, hey, we just don’t have the budget for videos anymore because we had to spend all of our budget on paying import taxes to start up U.S. Warehouses because a lot of these companies are like ‘we have to start a U. S. Warehouse because nobody’s going to buy our products and pay these tariffs.’ And there’s so many unknowns floating around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But on top of that, I mean, I personally paid, I think over three thousand dollars in tariffs this year …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …just from brands sending me unsolicited keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know it’s coming, but then I get hit with, ‘oh, hey, DHL says you have to pay $150 to get this keyboard’…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and they’re like declaring real…yeah. So for me it’s I mean, it’s business expense, whatever. But yeah, it it’s real. It’s very real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, with the current economic climate, with a state of tariffs, like with what consumers are looking for now, like, is that affecting your content and the kind of videos you’re making? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I mean, I can tell you from my personal experience, like, if I make a video on a keyboard that’s more than $100, way less interest than if it’s a budget focused keyboard, because in general, consumers are just feeling really, really strained right now. And that’s ignoring tariffs. Like, that’s just focusing on stuff from Amazon because in general, now somebody doesn’t want to buy a keyboard from China if it means that they’re going to get hit with these tariffs. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s truly a nightmare for so many small businesses. Like, it’s insane. It’s made it so small businesses can’t experiment very much because you have to just really play it safe. Like we used to experiment by having a ton of different key cap sets and a ton of different desk mats, and it didn’t matter as much what did great because like, everything kept the boat floating. But when the stakes are like so much higher now, it’s reducing innovation. It’s adding so much more uncertainty. And like there’s been a couple other keyboard companies that are like, ‘we might just pull out like we might just stop making keyboards.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I can’t say those brands. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because everything is moving toward pre-built and all that and like, there’s less incentive to innovate. Do you think people will go back to that kind of mentality of tinkering and of customizing because the companies aren’t willing to take risks anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really hope so. Like, I hope it’s kind of cyclical where it’s like people will go back to just like, having a little bit less options and kind of enjoying the craft of it more because building keyboards is still so fun. And the idea of customizing a tool that you use every day is so fulfilling. But like, when all of the economic forces are kind of making you buy a pre-built keyboard, it’s, you don’t really have a choice. So I really do hope that it moves that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the custom keyboard world, people are always searching for their endgame: the keyboard that’s so perfect, so tailored to their specific preferences that they’ll never have to buy or build another keyboard again. It’s a constant process of trial and error and experimenting with different modifications. A lot of hobbyists have put that endgame hunt on hold thanks to the tariffs and uncertainty of trade relations. Frank, for one, is over the idea of chasing an endgame. For now, he’s finding joy in the collection that he already has. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The beauty of custom is that you can have so many different kinds of things, not just one thing that you just like. And I love that. So I have a bunch of different layouts, different colors and keycaps. I have different switches and typing feels on all my keyboards. I have a rotation. I go through every day, I kind of change up, that’s like, one of my rituals. Like before I get to my computer, I bring out another keyboard. Oh, yeah, I feel like using this. There’s really no endgame for me. I would say my goal is to always have a collection that I am very happy with. And I’m kind of happy with that right now. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether your keeb is a luxury custom build or a pre-built budget find, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Sound design by Chris Egusa, additional music by APM, audio engineering by Brendan Willard and Brian Douglas. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. Keyboard sounds in this episode were submitted by Frank Lee, including his Geonwerks F1-K Bingsu Edition, DNworks Ryujin and HHHH Salamander PC keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know it’s a podcast cliche, but it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"order": 10
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
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"live-from-here-highlights": {
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"title": "Live from Here Highlights",
"info": "Chris Thile steps to the mic as the host of Live from Here (formerly A Prairie Home Companion), a live public radio variety show. Download Chris’s Song of the Week plus other highlights from the broadcast. Produced by American Public Media.",
"airtime": "SAT 6pm-8pm, SUN 11am-1pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Live-From-Here-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"link": "/radio/program/live-from-here-highlights",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/a-prairie-home-companion-highlights/rss/rss"
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 13
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"onourwatch": {
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"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 12
},
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
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"our-body-politic": {
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"title": "Our Body Politic",
"info": "Presented by KQED, KCRW and KPCC, and created and hosted by award-winning journalist Farai Chideya, Our Body Politic is unapologetically centered on reporting on not just how women of color experience the major political events of today, but how they’re impacting those very issues.",
"airtime": "SAT 6pm-7pm, SUN 1am-2am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Our-Body-Politic-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/our-body-politic",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9feGFQaHMxcw",
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},
"perspectives": {
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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