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"content": "\n\u003cp>At the center of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> boom, candidates looking to represent San Francisco in Washington appear aligned on a common goal: AI must be regulated. But how to do that is where the debate really heats up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>State Sen. Scott Wiener and San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan are vying for Rep. Nancy Pelosi’s seat in Congress as the former House speaker prepares to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062796/nancy-pelosi-leaves-congress-after-38-years-defining-generations-of-democratic-power\">retire\u003c/a> after nearly four decades. They’re competing for votes at a time when concerns are rising around AI, from mass job loss to automated data privacy hacks and computer-driven nuclear war. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Consumers have not seen such rapid change with any new technology. I mean, you could look to the internet, you could to railroads, you can go all the way back and look at industrialization in the 1800s, but we’ve just never seen this sort of rapid development,” said Michele Neitz, a professor of law, technology and social transformation at the University of San Francisco School of Law. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Currently, there is no comprehensive federal framework regulating AI, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">experts following AI\u003c/a> development closely say it’s time for lawmakers in Washington to set up guardrails even as President Donald Trump has suggested \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12103983/ai-founders-cheer-trumps-calls-for-the-industry-to-police-itself-on-safety\">AI companies will regulate themselves\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/kqed-debate-1-copy-2-scaled-e1790958307792.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102554\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">State Sen. Scott Wiener during a debate with San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan at KQED in San Francisco on Thursday, Oct. 1, 2026. The two Democrats are running for California’s 11th District, a seat Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is leaving. KQED and the San Francisco Chronicle co-hosted the debate. (Santiago Mejia/S.F. Chronicle/Pool)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That rapid development is happening more quickly than our political system can keep up,” Neitz said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wiener has long been vocal about the need to regulate and increase transparency around AI, and authored the country’s first \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">AI transparency bill\u003c/a>, which California passed in 2025. His first attempt at an AI safety bill included a “kill-switch” for disastrous scenarios and other safeguards; however, that bill was vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The bill that did pass, SB 53, has since been adapted around the country, including by New York City, and other places like Connecticut have gone on to add even more comprehensive AI legislation focused on areas like education and workforce mandates. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Along the campaign trail, Wiener has leaned into that legislative experience and touted being an early advocate for AI safety. His vision for Congress is to create a federal regulatory body to oversee AI security, increase guardrails and protect whistleblowers, and expand unemployment to brace for waves of job displacement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a video advertisement, Wiener tells viewers that “AI is getting more powerful by the day, and the risks are very real.” He said that in Washington, he would continue to seek the kill-switch approach, along with more legal liability and safety standards and cooperation with other countries on AI safety.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wiener has also said that AI data centers should pick up the tab for their environmental costs, and he supports transitioning data centers towards greener energy, rather than a full ban on new facilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Chan meanwhile has taken what Neitz said is the more “populist” approach, calling for a full moratorium on data centers and giving unions and AI workers a voice in regulation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In her own video on the topic, Chan pointed to a $3.9 billion tax break that Meta received last year to build data centers. “We’re going to regulate artificial intelligence to make sure we can protect our workforce and prioritize safety for the American people,” she said. “No more tax breaks for these billionaires and tech corporations.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She’s also criticized her opponent’s AI safety bill, calling it “watered down” and influenced by big tech interests. The bill also did not prevent major cyberattacks this year, where AI models \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">hacked into other platforms\u003c/a> and breached government websites. Chan said the companies overseeing the models, OpenAI and Anthropic, should “absolutely” be held liable for the attacks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Instead of waiting for something catastrophic to happen and to have a so-called kill switch, it is important to have human oversight during the developmental phase of the technology,” Chan said at a debate this week hosted by \u003cem>Mission Local\u003c/em> and the \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>. “Can we trust the AI industries to police and regulate themselves? And can we trust any politicians who are bankrolled by the AI industry? I say no.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The advocacy group Public First Action, which is pushing for more AI regulation and has received money from the AI company Anthropic, has poured $3 million into Abundant Future, an independent expenditure committee supporting Wiener, Punchbowl News first reported. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/kqed-debate-3-scaled-e1790958264709.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102556\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan during her debate with state Sen. Scott Wiener at KQED in San Francisco on Thursday, Oct. 1, 2026. The two Democrats are running for California’s 11th District, a seat Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is leaving. KQED and the San Francisco Chronicle co-hosted the debate. (Santiago Mejia/S.F. Chronicle/Pool)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wiener, in the debate this week, said, “That PAC supports candidates who are pro-AI regulation, and because I have actually regulated AI and will lead in regulating AI in Congress, that is my understanding of why that PAC is supporting me.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He went on to defend his record, saying he “went to war with big tech to pass AI regulation in California.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In September, tech titans including Anthropic’s Dario Amodei and OpenAI’s Sam Altman, both leading San Francisco-based companies, made headlines for sounding the alarm about potentially devastating impacts of AI on humanity and called for regulations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But AI CEOs are not all in agreement on the issue. Others are advocating for self-regulation in order not to hinder development of the technology or risk falling behind China’s AI advancements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1618\" height=\"1078\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103984\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000.jpg 1618w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1618px) 100vw, 1618px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">President Donald Trump, center, next to Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang, left, and Elon Musk, right, speaks in the East Room of the White House in Washington on Sept. 29, 2026, surrounded by top executives of AI firms including, from top left, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, Greg Brockman, President of OpenAI, House Speaker Mike Johnson, AMD CEO Lisa Su, Palo Alto Networks Chief Executive Nikesh Arora and David Sacks. (Jacquelyn Martin/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump has pushed back against regulatory guardrails for AI, previously calling doomsday threats a “hoax.” In September, he signed a document with executives at Google, Anthropic, Meta, OpenAI, Nvidia and SpaceX that calls for “robust internal processes and controls to ensure that their technology behaves as intended.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both Chan and Wiener don’t trust the idea. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We must not allow the tech companies to write their own self-regulation,” Wiener said. “We need Congress to step up and regulate tech to make sure technology is serving the public and not harming the public, and that will be a priority for me.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slowing down AI development has become the biggest political issue for many in the Bay Area. Wynd Kaufman, a retired former engineering teacher at City College of San Francisco, was one of several protesters arrested outside of the OpenAI headquarters last year, months before its CEO came out warning about the technology’s potential downsides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Politicians are realizing that people do not want AI. We don’t want our environment degradation. We don’t want our rivers to run dry. We want our humanity and our privacy,” she said at an anti-AI protest on Thursday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Local politicians are weighing, too. In San Francisco, the Board of Supervisors recently \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099583/san-francisco-supervisors-push-for-moratorium-on-new-data-centers\">passed a 45-day moratorium\u003c/a> on allowing new data centers, which use tremendous amounts of energy to train and run AI models. The board’s decision followed nationwide trends where communities have pushed back on opening up new data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But negative sentiment around AI has put San Francisco leaders in a bind, particularly business-friendly leaders who are banking on the AI industry to revive the city’s local economy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Bay Area region has added more than 20,000 AI jobs over the past year, even amid massive waves of layoffs and overall contraction of the tech industry, according to CBRE’s 2026 Scoring Tech Talent report.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The concentration of talent, venture capital, leading universities and innovative companies continues to make the Bay Area the premier destination for AI development and investment,” said Colin Yasukochi, executive director of CBRE Tech Insights.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For whichever candidate wins, the questions around AI safety are not likely going away soon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to Neitz, “2027 is going to be a big year in AI legislation regardless of the outcome of the midterms because the people are clamoring for it and Congress will need to respond.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Consumers have not seen such rapid change with any new technology. I mean, you could look to the internet, you could to railroads, you can go all the way back and look at industrialization in the 1800s, but we’ve just never seen this sort of rapid development,” said Michele Neitz, a professor of law, technology and social transformation at the University of San Francisco School of Law. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Currently, there is no comprehensive federal framework regulating AI, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">experts following AI\u003c/a> development closely say it’s time for lawmakers in Washington to set up guardrails even as President Donald Trump has suggested \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12103983/ai-founders-cheer-trumps-calls-for-the-industry-to-police-itself-on-safety\">AI companies will regulate themselves\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/kqed-debate-1-copy-2-scaled-e1790958307792.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102554\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">State Sen. Scott Wiener during a debate with San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan at KQED in San Francisco on Thursday, Oct. 1, 2026. The two Democrats are running for California’s 11th District, a seat Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is leaving. KQED and the San Francisco Chronicle co-hosted the debate.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Santiago Mejia/S.F. Chronicle/Pool)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/kqed-debate-1-copy-2-scaled-e1790958307792.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102554\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">State Sen. Scott Wiener during a debate with San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan at KQED in San Francisco on Thursday, Oct. 1, 2026. The two Democrats are running for California’s 11th District, a seat Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is leaving. KQED and the San Francisco Chronicle co-hosted the debate.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Santiago Mejia/S.F. Chronicle/Pool)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“That rapid development is happening more quickly than our political system can keep up,” Neitz said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wiener has long been vocal about the need to regulate and increase transparency around AI, and authored the country’s first \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">AI transparency bill\u003c/a>, which California passed in 2025. His first attempt at an AI safety bill included a “kill-switch” for disastrous scenarios and other safeguards; however, that bill was vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wiener has long been vocal about the need to regulate and increase transparency around AI, and authored the country’s first \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">AI transparency bill\u003c/a>, which California passed in 2025. His first attempt at an AI safety bill included a “kill-switch” for disastrous scenarios and other safeguards; however, that bill was vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The bill that did pass, SB 53, has since been adapted around the country, including by New York City, and other places like Connecticut have gone on to add even more comprehensive AI legislation focused on areas like education and workforce mandates. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The bill that did pass, SB 53, has since been adapted around the country, including by New York City, and other places like Connecticut have gone on to add even more comprehensive AI legislation focused on areas like education and workforce mandates. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Along the campaign trail, Wiener has leaned into that legislative experience and touted being an early advocate for AI safety. His vision for Congress is to create a federal regulatory body to oversee AI security, increase guardrails and protect whistleblowers, and expand unemployment to brace for waves of job displacement. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a video advertisement, Wiener tells viewers that “AI is getting more powerful by the day, and the risks are very real.” He said that in Washington, he would continue to seek the kill-switch approach, along with more legal liability and safety standards and cooperation with other countries on AI safety.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In a video advertisement, Wiener tells viewers that “AI is getting more powerful by the day, and the risks are very real.” He said that in Washington, he would continue to seek the kill-switch approach, along with more legal liability and safety standards and cooperation with other countries on AI safety.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wiener has also said that AI data centers should pick up the tab for their environmental costs, and he supports transitioning data centers towards greener energy, rather than a full ban on new facilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Chan meanwhile has taken what Neitz said is the more “populist” approach, calling for a full moratorium on data centers and giving unions and AI workers a voice in regulation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In her own video on the topic, Chan pointed to a $3.9 billion tax break that Meta received last year to build data centers. “We’re going to regulate artificial intelligence to make sure we can protect our workforce and prioritize safety for the American people,” she said. “No more tax breaks for these billionaires and tech corporations.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In her own video on the topic, Chan pointed to a $3.9 billion tax break that Meta received last year to build data centers. “We’re going to regulate artificial intelligence to make sure we can protect our workforce and prioritize safety for the American people,” she said. “No more tax breaks for these billionaires and tech corporations.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She’s also criticized her opponent’s AI safety bill, calling it “watered down” and influenced by big tech interests. The bill also did not prevent major cyberattacks this year, where AI models \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">hacked into other platforms\u003c/a> and breached government websites. Chan said the companies overseeing the models, OpenAI and Anthropic, should “absolutely” be held liable for the attacks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She’s also criticized her opponent’s AI safety bill, calling it “watered down” and influenced by big tech interests. The bill also did not prevent major cyberattacks this year, where AI models \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">hacked into other platforms\u003c/a> and breached government websites. Chan said the companies overseeing the models, OpenAI and Anthropic, should “absolutely” be held liable for the attacks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Instead of waiting for something catastrophic to happen and to have a so-called kill switch, it is important to have human oversight during the developmental phase of the technology,” Chan said at a debate this week hosted by \u003cem>Mission Local\u003c/em> and the \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>. “Can we trust the AI industries to police and regulate themselves? And can we trust any politicians who are bankrolled by the AI industry? I say no.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The advocacy group Public First Action, which is pushing for more AI regulation and has received money from the AI company Anthropic, has poured $3 million into Abundant Future, an independent expenditure committee supporting Wiener, Punchbowl News first reported. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The advocacy group Public First Action, which is pushing for more AI regulation and has received money from the AI company Anthropic, has poured $3 million into Abundant Future, an independent expenditure committee supporting Wiener, Punchbowl News first reported. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/kqed-debate-3-scaled-e1790958264709.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102556\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan during her debate with state Sen. Scott Wiener at KQED in San Francisco on Thursday, Oct. 1, 2026. The two Democrats are running for California’s 11th District, a seat Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is leaving. KQED and the San Francisco Chronicle co-hosted the debate.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Santiago Mejia/S.F. Chronicle/Pool)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/kqed-debate-3-scaled-e1790958264709.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102556\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan during her debate with state Sen. Scott Wiener at KQED in San Francisco on Thursday, Oct. 1, 2026. The two Democrats are running for California’s 11th District, a seat Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is leaving. KQED and the San Francisco Chronicle co-hosted the debate.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Santiago Mejia/S.F. Chronicle/Pool)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wiener, in the debate this week, said, “That PAC supports candidates who are pro-AI regulation, and because I have actually regulated AI and will lead in regulating AI in Congress, that is my understanding of why that PAC is supporting me.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wiener, in the debate this week, said, “That PAC supports candidates who are pro-AI regulation, and because I have actually regulated AI and will lead in regulating AI in Congress, that is my understanding of why that PAC is supporting me.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He went on to defend his record, saying he “went to war with big tech to pass AI regulation in California.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In September, tech titans including Anthropic’s Dario Amodei and OpenAI’s Sam Altman, both leading San Francisco-based companies, made headlines for sounding the alarm about potentially devastating impacts of AI on humanity and called for regulations. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In September, tech titans including Anthropic’s Dario Amodei and OpenAI’s Sam Altman, both leading San Francisco-based companies, made headlines for sounding the alarm about potentially devastating impacts of AI on humanity and called for regulations. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But AI CEOs are not all in agreement on the issue. Others are advocating for self-regulation in order not to hinder development of the technology or risk falling behind China’s AI advancements. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But AI CEOs are not all in agreement on the issue. Others are advocating for self-regulation in order not to hinder development of the technology or risk falling behind China’s AI advancements. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103984\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000.jpg 1618w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">President Donald Trump, center, next to Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang, left, and Elon Musk, right, speaks in the East Room of the White House in Washington on Sept. 29, 2026, surrounded by top executives of AI firms including, from top left, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, Greg Brockman, President of OpenAI, House Speaker Mike Johnson, AMD CEO Lisa Su, Palo Alto Networks Chief Executive Nikesh Arora and David Sacks. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Jacquelyn Martin/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump has pushed back against regulatory guardrails for AI, previously calling doomsday threats a “hoax.” In September, he signed a document with executives at Google, Anthropic, Meta, OpenAI, Nvidia and SpaceX that calls for “robust internal processes and controls to ensure that their technology behaves as intended.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Both Chan and Wiener don’t trust the idea. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We must not allow the tech companies to write their own self-regulation,” Wiener said. “We need Congress to step up and regulate tech to make sure technology is serving the public and not harming the public, and that will be a priority for me.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Slowing down AI development has become the biggest political issue for many in the Bay Area. Wynd Kaufman, a retired former engineering teacher at City College of San Francisco, was one of several protesters arrested outside of the OpenAI headquarters last year, months before its CEO came out warning about the technology’s potential downsides. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Politicians are realizing that people do not want AI. We don’t want our environment degradation. We don’t want our rivers to run dry. We want our humanity and our privacy,” she said at an anti-AI protest on Thursday. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Local politicians are weighing, too. In San Francisco, the Board of Supervisors recently \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099583/san-francisco-supervisors-push-for-moratorium-on-new-data-centers\">passed a 45-day moratorium\u003c/a> on allowing new data centers, which use tremendous amounts of energy to train and run AI models. The board’s decision followed nationwide trends where communities have pushed back on opening up new data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But negative sentiment around AI has put San Francisco leaders in a bind, particularly business-friendly leaders who are banking on the AI industry to revive the city’s local economy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Bay Area region has added more than 20,000 AI jobs over the past year, even amid massive waves of layoffs and overall contraction of the tech industry, according to CBRE’s 2026 Scoring Tech Talent report.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to Neitz, “2027 is going to be a big year in AI legislation regardless of the outcome of the midterms because the people are clamoring for it and Congress will need to respond.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Experts following artificial intelligence development closely say it's time for lawmakers in Washington to set up guardrails.",
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"title": "San Francisco Is Ground Zero for AI. How Would Congressional Candidates Push for Regulation? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>At the center of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> boom, candidates looking to represent San Francisco in Washington appear aligned on a common goal: AI must be regulated. But how to do that is where the debate really heats up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>State Sen. Scott Wiener and San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan are vying for Rep. Nancy Pelosi’s seat in Congress as the former House speaker prepares to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062796/nancy-pelosi-leaves-congress-after-38-years-defining-generations-of-democratic-power\">retire\u003c/a> after nearly four decades. They’re competing for votes at a time when concerns are rising around AI, from mass job loss to automated data privacy hacks and computer-driven nuclear war. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Consumers have not seen such rapid change with any new technology. I mean, you could look to the internet, you could to railroads, you can go all the way back and look at industrialization in the 1800s, but we’ve just never seen this sort of rapid development,” said Michele Neitz, a professor of law, technology and social transformation at the University of San Francisco School of Law. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Currently, there is no comprehensive federal framework regulating AI, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">experts following AI\u003c/a> development closely say it’s time for lawmakers in Washington to set up guardrails even as President Donald Trump has suggested \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12103983/ai-founders-cheer-trumps-calls-for-the-industry-to-police-itself-on-safety\">AI companies will regulate themselves\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/kqed-debate-1-copy-2-scaled-e1790958307792.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102554\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">State Sen. Scott Wiener during a debate with San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan at KQED in San Francisco on Thursday, Oct. 1, 2026. The two Democrats are running for California’s 11th District, a seat Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is leaving. KQED and the San Francisco Chronicle co-hosted the debate. (Santiago Mejia/S.F. Chronicle/Pool)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That rapid development is happening more quickly than our political system can keep up,” Neitz said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wiener has long been vocal about the need to regulate and increase transparency around AI, and authored the country’s first \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">AI transparency bill\u003c/a>, which California passed in 2025. His first attempt at an AI safety bill included a “kill-switch” for disastrous scenarios and other safeguards; however, that bill was vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The bill that did pass, SB 53, has since been adapted around the country, including by New York City, and other places like Connecticut have gone on to add even more comprehensive AI legislation focused on areas like education and workforce mandates. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Along the campaign trail, Wiener has leaned into that legislative experience and touted being an early advocate for AI safety. His vision for Congress is to create a federal regulatory body to oversee AI security, increase guardrails and protect whistleblowers, and expand unemployment to brace for waves of job displacement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a video advertisement, Wiener tells viewers that “AI is getting more powerful by the day, and the risks are very real.” He said that in Washington, he would continue to seek the kill-switch approach, along with more legal liability and safety standards and cooperation with other countries on AI safety.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wiener has also said that AI data centers should pick up the tab for their environmental costs, and he supports transitioning data centers towards greener energy, rather than a full ban on new facilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Chan meanwhile has taken what Neitz said is the more “populist” approach, calling for a full moratorium on data centers and giving unions and AI workers a voice in regulation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In her own video on the topic, Chan pointed to a $3.9 billion tax break that Meta received last year to build data centers. “We’re going to regulate artificial intelligence to make sure we can protect our workforce and prioritize safety for the American people,” she said. “No more tax breaks for these billionaires and tech corporations.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She’s also criticized her opponent’s AI safety bill, calling it “watered down” and influenced by big tech interests. The bill also did not prevent major cyberattacks this year, where AI models \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">hacked into other platforms\u003c/a> and breached government websites. Chan said the companies overseeing the models, OpenAI and Anthropic, should “absolutely” be held liable for the attacks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Instead of waiting for something catastrophic to happen and to have a so-called kill switch, it is important to have human oversight during the developmental phase of the technology,” Chan said at a debate this week hosted by \u003cem>Mission Local\u003c/em> and the \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>. “Can we trust the AI industries to police and regulate themselves? And can we trust any politicians who are bankrolled by the AI industry? I say no.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The advocacy group Public First Action, which is pushing for more AI regulation and has received money from the AI company Anthropic, has poured $3 million into Abundant Future, an independent expenditure committee supporting Wiener, Punchbowl News first reported. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/kqed-debate-3-scaled-e1790958264709.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102556\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan during her debate with state Sen. Scott Wiener at KQED in San Francisco on Thursday, Oct. 1, 2026. The two Democrats are running for California’s 11th District, a seat Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is leaving. KQED and the San Francisco Chronicle co-hosted the debate. (Santiago Mejia/S.F. Chronicle/Pool)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wiener, in the debate this week, said, “That PAC supports candidates who are pro-AI regulation, and because I have actually regulated AI and will lead in regulating AI in Congress, that is my understanding of why that PAC is supporting me.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He went on to defend his record, saying he “went to war with big tech to pass AI regulation in California.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In September, tech titans including Anthropic’s Dario Amodei and OpenAI’s Sam Altman, both leading San Francisco-based companies, made headlines for sounding the alarm about potentially devastating impacts of AI on humanity and called for regulations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But AI CEOs are not all in agreement on the issue. Others are advocating for self-regulation in order not to hinder development of the technology or risk falling behind China’s AI advancements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1618\" height=\"1078\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103984\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000.jpg 1618w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/AP26272702876598-c2e61000-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1618px) 100vw, 1618px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">President Donald Trump, center, next to Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang, left, and Elon Musk, right, speaks in the East Room of the White House in Washington on Sept. 29, 2026, surrounded by top executives of AI firms including, from top left, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, Greg Brockman, President of OpenAI, House Speaker Mike Johnson, AMD CEO Lisa Su, Palo Alto Networks Chief Executive Nikesh Arora and David Sacks. (Jacquelyn Martin/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump has pushed back against regulatory guardrails for AI, previously calling doomsday threats a “hoax.” In September, he signed a document with executives at Google, Anthropic, Meta, OpenAI, Nvidia and SpaceX that calls for “robust internal processes and controls to ensure that their technology behaves as intended.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both Chan and Wiener don’t trust the idea. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We must not allow the tech companies to write their own self-regulation,” Wiener said. “We need Congress to step up and regulate tech to make sure technology is serving the public and not harming the public, and that will be a priority for me.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slowing down AI development has become the biggest political issue for many in the Bay Area. Wynd Kaufman, a retired former engineering teacher at City College of San Francisco, was one of several protesters arrested outside of the OpenAI headquarters last year, months before its CEO came out warning about the technology’s potential downsides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Politicians are realizing that people do not want AI. We don’t want our environment degradation. We don’t want our rivers to run dry. We want our humanity and our privacy,” she said at an anti-AI protest on Thursday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Local politicians are weighing, too. In San Francisco, the Board of Supervisors recently \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099583/san-francisco-supervisors-push-for-moratorium-on-new-data-centers\">passed a 45-day moratorium\u003c/a> on allowing new data centers, which use tremendous amounts of energy to train and run AI models. The board’s decision followed nationwide trends where communities have pushed back on opening up new data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But negative sentiment around AI has put San Francisco leaders in a bind, particularly business-friendly leaders who are banking on the AI industry to revive the city’s local economy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Bay Area region has added more than 20,000 AI jobs over the past year, even amid massive waves of layoffs and overall contraction of the tech industry, according to CBRE’s 2026 Scoring Tech Talent report.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The concentration of talent, venture capital, leading universities and innovative companies continues to make the Bay Area the premier destination for AI development and investment,” said Colin Yasukochi, executive director of CBRE Tech Insights.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For whichever candidate wins, the questions around AI safety are not likely going away soon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to Neitz, “2027 is going to be a big year in AI legislation regardless of the outcome of the midterms because the people are clamoring for it and Congress will need to respond.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "dont-skip-the-school-board-races-on-your-ballot-heres-why-they-could-be-pivotal",
"title": "Don’t Skip the School Board Races on Your Ballot. Here’s Why They Could Be Pivotal",
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"headTitle": "Don’t Skip the School Board Races on Your Ballot. Here’s Why They Could Be Pivotal | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>In \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/educationnews\">school districts\u003c/a> across the Bay Area, years of declining enrollment are forcing major cuts and closures; students’ math and reading scores are in a \u003ca href=\"https://cepr.harvard.edu/news/2026/05/why-us-test-scores-are-generation-long-decline\">free fall\u003c/a>; and campuses are being confronted with many of our major political fights, from transgender rights to AI regulation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in many cases, the people elected to navigate these challenges earn that significant power by a margin as small as a couple hundred votes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>More than half of school board candidates across the U.S. run uncontested in an average election cycle, and voter turnout hovers between 5% and 10%. And school board races tend to be “low information,” meaning voters know little about who the candidates are or where they stand on key issues, many of which are similar across districts throughout the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED asked \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">390 candidates vying for 109 school board seats\u003c/a> across the nine-county Bay Area in November for their stance on some of these topics, from potential school closures to cellphone use — information voters can use at a time that education experts say is pivotal to public schools’ success. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have some unambiguously big problems for schools,” said Jon Valant, who directs the Brown Center on Education Policy at the Brookings Institution. “You can have a big impact, and you can have a big impact at a time when schools are facing a lot of important questions.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What do school boards actually do?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>School boards oversee large budgets, act as major employers and make policy and curriculum decisions that affect thousands of young people — and have rippling impacts on their wider communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“[Public schools] are the primary institutions that we have for preparing people to be contributing members of our society, democracy and economy,” Valant said. “When you’re participating in a school board election, you’re really having a say in the structure of our society more broadly.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094191\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A classroom at Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. Mission Bay School is the first new public SFUSD school to open in 20 years. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The bodies have a few main functions: approving a school district’s budget — which for an urban district like San Francisco, tops $1.36 billion — and hiring and evaluating a superintendent, the person “who’s really responsible for running the system,” according to Julie Marsh, a faculty director at Policy Analysis for California Education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>School boards set priorities, such as student outcome goals and community values, that are supposed to guide decision-making by the superintendent and district staff. They also approve curriculum and labor contracts and can steer high-level policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Culture war battlegrounds\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Less officially, school boards have also become political arenas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Schools and particularly school boards have really become some of the country’s main battlegrounds for its culture wars,” Valant said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He traces the trend back to the COVID-19 pandemic, when some groups of parents began organizing and rallying against masking and vaccine mandates.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1571\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103881\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437-160x126.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437-1536x1207.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Martha Aguilera, left, with Karen Frost of Moms for Liberty, speaks at the California Policy Center and PERK (Protection of the Educational Rights of Kids) event, “A Line in the Sand, A Rally for Parental Rights,” at Rancho Madera Community Park in Simi Valley, California, on Sept. 26, 2023. (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Around the same time, groups like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101904708/conservative-mothers-as-a-political-force-in-california\">Moms for Liberty\u003c/a> were on the rise, advocating against curriculum that teaches about LGBTQ rights and race and ethnicity. They began running school board candidates and establishing a sustained presence at school board meetings, sowing fear that public schools are pushing “woke indoctrination.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen far-right leaders who have been quite successful with this approach where they run well-funded groups, organize and run a candidate on an ideological platform,” Marsh said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She and other experts said the rise of candidates running for the nonpartisan roles backed by political interest groups became especially prominent in the early 2020s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While these groups’ influence on school board races seems to be dying down in California, Valant said a recent national Brookings survey found that school board members still feel their governance has become more political and partisan in recent years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marsh said that conservative groups have also used the tactic to upend trust in school systems more broadly and “mobilize their base.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s a whole strategy of creating a bench for potential candidates for higher office,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1372\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086196\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1-1536x1054.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Sonja Shaw, Chino Valley Unified School District Board President, speaks at the California Policy Center and PERK (Protection of the Educational Rights of Kids) event, “A Line in the Sand: A Rally for Parental Rights,” at Rancho Madera Community Park in Simi Valley, California, on Sept. 26, 2023. (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sonja Shaw, who is in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086044/conservative-activist-sonja-shaw-advances-in-state-superintendent-race\">runoff election for California state superintendent\u003c/a> this November, rose to notoriety as Chino Valley’s school board president in 2023, when she pushed for a policy that would require school staff to notify parents of any change in their children’s gender identity. Shaw made headlines after current state Superintendent Tony Thurmond was heckled and removed from her district’s board meeting after he expressed opposition to the policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The policy was permanently halted in 2024, after a lawsuit from Attorney General Rob Bonta, along with similar campaigns to implement “forced outing” in Rocklin and counties in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump also harnessed fear surrounding schools’ policies around LGBTQ students in the final stretch of his 2024 reelection campaign, telling a crowd of about 20,000 at Madison Square Garden, “we will get … transgender insanity the hell out of our schools.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He repeatedly told voters: “your kid goes to school and comes home a few days later with an operation,” changing their sex.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">‘Big, big issues’\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While “culture war politics” draw attention and tend to spur single-issue candidates to run for school boards, Valant said, “we need really to be focused on some of the core issues in education.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“[Artificial intelligence] has kind of landed on schools’ laps, and questions about how technology should be embedded into the school day,” he said. “We’ve seen achievement declines across the country and growing gaps between the highest- and lowest-scoring students. We’ve seen chronic absenteeism and enrollment declines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And, we’ve seen a growing attack on public education across the country,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Nick Melvoin, Member of the Los Angeles Unified School District, speaks during a board meeting at the LAUSD headquarters on April 21, 2026, in Los Angeles, California. The LAUSD met to discuss a resolution calling for development of a Screen Time Policy setting time limits by grade, including elimination of student digital devices for early education through first grade, prohibiting device use by elementary and middle school students during passing periods, lunch and recess. The board unanimously voted to approve Board Member Melvoin’s Resolution to limit student screen time. (Kayla Bartkowski/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the boards elected this November will be tasked with deciding how their districts will weather shrinking student bodies, and whether to close schools as part of that process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/school-closures\">closure process\u003c/a> is almost always met with strong opposition from families and teachers, but how districts approach it can significantly change how it affects enrollment and trust.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s former superintendent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12010008/sf-schools-crisis-is-spiraling-with-top-official-to-resign-heres-all-thats-happened\">resigned under pressure\u003c/a> in 2024 after a botched closure process that strained relationships with the district’s labor unions and many families. But earlier this year, the school board \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095382/as-sfusd-welcomes-back-students-officials-plan-to-revamp-enrollment-consider-closures\">reopened the question of school consolidations\u003c/a>, giving Superintendent Maria Su a strict deadline of 2030 to decide whether campuses should shutter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The board — including the three members who will be elected this fall — will have final approval over her plan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Campus closures can upend longstanding school communities, and National School Board Association president Verjeana McCotter-Jacobs said they have rippling effects on nearby businesses, property values and neighborhood populations if they spur families to move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Of the 140 Bay Area school board candidates who responded to KQED’s question about school closures, 57% said they would consider supporting a proposal from their district to close schools, while 43% said they would oppose the practice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Boards are also setting the course for the future of technology in classrooms, as parent-led backlash expands across the country, blaming overreliance on screens and artificial intelligence for poor learning outcomes. According to a joint Education Scorecard project from researchers at Stanford, Harvard and Dartmouth universities, falling test scores reflect a \u003ca href=\"https://cepr.harvard.edu/news/2026/05/why-us-test-scores-are-generation-long-decline\">decadelong “learning recession.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the spring, the Los Angeles Unified School District board passed a slate of historic tech-limiting policies, proposed by board member Nick Melvoin, with advocacy group Schools Beyond Screens. Districts across the country have moved quickly to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096557/a-chromebook-in-the-hand-of-every-child-did-schools-go-too-far\">replicate their model\u003c/a>, including in the Bay Area, from San José to Marin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last week, the Oakland school board approved new technology restrictions, proposed by board member Rachel Latta, that prohibit students from using individual devices during lunch and passing periods, and mandate training for teachers to reduce 1:1 device use by the fall of 2027. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other districts in San Francisco, San Mateo and Palo Alto have formed ad hoc committees or working groups to consider stricter tech policies, which will be presented to their new boards in the spring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s public school district is relatively behind on limiting tech use — the current board allowed administrators to punt on a stricter cellphone policy last spring, and it uses a controversial AI-assisted reading assessment and tutoring tool with kindergarteners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Combatting federal attacks\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Voters aren’t just choosing who will make major instructional decisions at their local school districts; Valant said voting in school board elections this November will send an important message amid what he calls a “federal attack” on public schools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Staying engaged with school boards, with education, with your local public school, is just really important in communicating that public schools are institutions that mean a lot to this country,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since taking office last year, Trump has signed an executive order directing the dismantling of the Department of Education and created a federal \u003ca href=\"https://www.ed.gov/media/document/education-freedom-tax-credit-fact-sheet-113147.pdf\">Education Freedom Scholarship Program\u003c/a>, which aims to expand parents’ school choice by allowing them to receive tax credits up to $1,700 that can be used to pay for private school tuition, home-schooling costs, and other educational support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2285787606-scaled-e1791586238561.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091600\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump addresses the nation from the East Room of the White House on July 16, 2026, in Washington, D.C. (Saul Loeb/Pool via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Those together are the biggest change in school policy since at least the early 1990s,” said professor Doug Harris, the director of the National Center for Research on Education Access and Choice at Tulane University. “The idea of open access or universal access to schools is upended. Public education has always involved some public governance, and this eliminates [that].”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Valant called the universal private school choice policies, adopted by more than half of U.S. states, not including California, “intentionally hostile to public schools.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While the federal government has suggested that school choice increases competition and will improve public schools, Valant and others worry it will siphon funds away from the public system and toward schools that are able to select which students they serve — and often teach religious material.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Trump administration has also threatened to withhold federal dollars from school districts that teach about diversity, equity and inclusion, or promote policies that protect transgender students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In June, the Department of Education launched compliance reviews into SFUSD and three Monterey County school districts over their policies and materials related to gender identity and sexual orientation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MariaSuAP2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MariaSuAP2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MariaSuAP2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MariaSuAP2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Unified School District Superintendent Dr. Maria Su testifies during a House Education and Workforce Committee hearing on parental rights and school content policies, on June 10, 2026, in Washington. (Kevin Wolf/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Later that month, San Francisco Superintendent Su was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086522/congress-to-grill-san-francisco-schools-chief-maria-su-about-gender-ethnic-studies\">called to testify\u003c/a> before Congress about parental rights and “inappropriate” course curriculum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All of that adds up to a current moment that Marsh described as an attack on public education and democracy at large, adding that voting is essential to maintain those institutions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A democracy that focuses on the common good … actually requires people to look out for other kids, not just their own families,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“School boards are one of our few local institutions that are both defending democracy and public education,” she said. “The federal government can’t do anything about our boards — the school board system is well established, and I think we need to defend that.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/educationnews\">school districts\u003c/a> across the Bay Area, years of declining enrollment are forcing major cuts and closures; students’ math and reading scores are in a \u003ca href=\"https://cepr.harvard.edu/news/2026/05/why-us-test-scores-are-generation-long-decline\">free fall\u003c/a>; and campuses are being confronted with many of our major political fights, from transgender rights to AI regulation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>More than half of school board candidates across the U.S. run uncontested in an average election cycle, and voter turnout hovers between 5% and 10%. And school board races tend to be “low information,” meaning voters know little about who the candidates are or where they stand on key issues, many of which are similar across districts throughout the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>More than half of school board candidates across the U.S. run uncontested in an average election cycle, and voter turnout hovers between 5% and 10%. And school board races tend to be “low information,” meaning voters know little about who the candidates are or where they stand on key issues, many of which are similar across districts throughout the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED asked \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">390 candidates vying for 109 school board seats\u003c/a> across the nine-county Bay Area in November for their stance on some of these topics, from potential school closures to cellphone use — information voters can use at a time that education experts say is pivotal to public schools’ success. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>KQED asked \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">390 candidates vying for 109 school board seats\u003c/a> across the nine-county Bay Area in November for their stance on some of these topics, from potential school closures to cellphone use — information voters can use at a time that education experts say is pivotal to public schools’ success. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We have some unambiguously big problems for schools,” said Jon Valant, who directs the Brown Center on Education Policy at the Brookings Institution. “You can have a big impact, and you can have a big impact at a time when schools are facing a lot of important questions.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We have some unambiguously big problems for schools,” said Jon Valant, who directs the Brown Center on Education Policy at the Brookings Institution. “You can have a big impact, and you can have a big impact at a time when schools are facing a lot of important questions.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What do school boards actually do?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>School boards oversee large budgets, act as major employers and make policy and curriculum decisions that affect thousands of young people — and have rippling impacts on their wider communities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>School boards oversee large budgets, act as major employers and make policy and curriculum decisions that affect thousands of young people — and have rippling impacts on their wider communities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“[Public schools] are the primary institutions that we have for preparing people to be contributing members of our society, democracy and economy,” Valant said. “When you’re participating in a school board election, you’re really having a say in the structure of our society more broadly.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“[Public schools] are the primary institutions that we have for preparing people to be contributing members of our society, democracy and economy,” Valant said. “When you’re participating in a school board election, you’re really having a say in the structure of our society more broadly.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094191\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A classroom at Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. Mission Bay School is the first new public SFUSD school to open in 20 years.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094191\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A classroom at Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. Mission Bay School is the first new public SFUSD school to open in 20 years.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The bodies have a few main functions: approving a school district’s budget — which for an urban district like San Francisco, tops $1.36 billion — and hiring and evaluating a superintendent, the person “who’s really responsible for running the system,” according to Julie Marsh, a faculty director at Policy Analysis for California Education.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The bodies have a few main functions: approving a school district’s budget — which for an urban district like San Francisco, tops $1.36 billion — and hiring and evaluating a superintendent, the person “who’s really responsible for running the system,” according to Julie Marsh, a faculty director at Policy Analysis for California Education.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>School boards set priorities, such as student outcome goals and community values, that are supposed to guide decision-making by the superintendent and district staff. They also approve curriculum and labor contracts and can steer high-level policy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>School boards set priorities, such as student outcome goals and community values, that are supposed to guide decision-making by the superintendent and district staff. They also approve curriculum and labor contracts and can steer high-level policy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Less officially, school boards have also become political arenas.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Schools and particularly school boards have really become some of the country’s main battlegrounds for its culture wars,” Valant said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He traces the trend back to the COVID-19 pandemic, when some groups of parents began organizing and rallying against masking and vaccine mandates.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He traces the trend back to the COVID-19 pandemic, when some groups of parents began organizing and rallying against masking and vaccine mandates.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103881\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437-160x126.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437-1536x1207.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Martha Aguilera, left, with Karen Frost of Moms for Liberty, speaks at the California Policy Center and PERK (Protection of the Educational Rights of Kids) event, “A Line in the Sand, A Rally for Parental Rights,” at Rancho Madera Community Park in Simi Valley, California, on Sept. 26, 2023.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103881\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Martha Aguilera, left, with Karen Frost of Moms for Liberty, speaks at the California Policy Center and PERK (Protection of the Educational Rights of Kids) event, “A Line in the Sand, A Rally for Parental Rights,” at Rancho Madera Community Park in Simi Valley, California, on Sept. 26, 2023.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Around the same time, groups like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101904708/conservative-mothers-as-a-political-force-in-california\">Moms for Liberty\u003c/a> were on the rise, advocating against curriculum that teaches about LGBTQ rights and race and ethnicity. They began running school board candidates and establishing a sustained presence at school board meetings, sowing fear that public schools are pushing “woke indoctrination.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen far-right leaders who have been quite successful with this approach where they run well-funded groups, organize and run a candidate on an ideological platform,” Marsh said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She and other experts said the rise of candidates running for the nonpartisan roles backed by political interest groups became especially prominent in the early 2020s. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While these groups’ influence on school board races seems to be dying down in California, Valant said a recent national Brookings survey found that school board members still feel their governance has become more political and partisan in recent years. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Marsh said that conservative groups have also used the tactic to upend trust in school systems more broadly and “mobilize their base.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There’s a whole strategy of creating a bench for potential candidates for higher office,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086196\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1-1536x1054.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Sonja Shaw, Chino Valley Unified School District Board President, speaks at the California Policy Center and PERK (Protection of the Educational Rights of Kids) event, “A Line in the Sand: A Rally for Parental Rights,” at Rancho Madera Community Park in Simi Valley, California, on Sept. 26, 2023.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086196\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Sonja Shaw, Chino Valley Unified School District Board President, speaks at the California Policy Center and PERK (Protection of the Educational Rights of Kids) event, “A Line in the Sand: A Rally for Parental Rights,” at Rancho Madera Community Park in Simi Valley, California, on Sept. 26, 2023.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sonja Shaw, who is in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086044/conservative-activist-sonja-shaw-advances-in-state-superintendent-race\">runoff election for California state superintendent\u003c/a> this November, rose to notoriety as Chino Valley’s school board president in 2023, when she pushed for a policy that would require school staff to notify parents of any change in their children’s gender identity. Shaw made headlines after current state Superintendent Tony Thurmond was heckled and removed from her district’s board meeting after he expressed opposition to the policy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sonja Shaw, who is in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086044/conservative-activist-sonja-shaw-advances-in-state-superintendent-race\">runoff election for California state superintendent\u003c/a> this November, rose to notoriety as Chino Valley’s school board president in 2023, when she pushed for a policy that would require school staff to notify parents of any change in their children’s gender identity. Shaw made headlines after current state Superintendent Tony Thurmond was heckled and removed from her district’s board meeting after he expressed opposition to the policy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The policy was permanently halted in 2024, after a lawsuit from Attorney General Rob Bonta, along with similar campaigns to implement “forced outing” in Rocklin and counties in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The policy was permanently halted in 2024, after a lawsuit from Attorney General Rob Bonta, along with similar campaigns to implement “forced outing” in Rocklin and counties in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump also harnessed fear surrounding schools’ policies around LGBTQ students in the final stretch of his 2024 reelection campaign, telling a crowd of about 20,000 at Madison Square Garden, “we will get … transgender insanity the hell out of our schools.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump also harnessed fear surrounding schools’ policies around LGBTQ students in the final stretch of his 2024 reelection campaign, telling a crowd of about 20,000 at Madison Square Garden, “we will get … transgender insanity the hell out of our schools.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He repeatedly told voters: “your kid goes to school and comes home a few days later with an operation,” changing their sex.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While “culture war politics” draw attention and tend to spur single-issue candidates to run for school boards, Valant said, “we need really to be focused on some of the core issues in education.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“[Artificial intelligence] has kind of landed on schools’ laps, and questions about how technology should be embedded into the school day,” he said. “We’ve seen achievement declines across the country and growing gaps between the highest- and lowest-scoring students. We’ve seen chronic absenteeism and enrollment declines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“[Artificial intelligence] has kind of landed on schools’ laps, and questions about how technology should be embedded into the school day,” he said. “We’ve seen achievement declines across the country and growing gaps between the highest- and lowest-scoring students. We’ve seen chronic absenteeism and enrollment declines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“And, we’ve seen a growing attack on public education across the country,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Nick Melvoin, Member of the Los Angeles Unified School District, speaks during a board meeting at the LAUSD headquarters on April 21, 2026, in Los Angeles, California. The LAUSD met to discuss a resolution calling for development of a Screen Time Policy setting time limits by grade, including elimination of student digital devices for early education through first grade, prohibiting device use by elementary and middle school students during passing periods, lunch and recess. The board unanimously voted to approve Board Member Melvoin’s Resolution to limit student screen time.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Kayla Bartkowski/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103883\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Nick Melvoin, Member of the Los Angeles Unified School District, speaks during a board meeting at the LAUSD headquarters on April 21, 2026, in Los Angeles, California. The LAUSD met to discuss a resolution calling for development of a Screen Time Policy setting time limits by grade, including elimination of student digital devices for early education through first grade, prohibiting device use by elementary and middle school students during passing periods, lunch and recess. The board unanimously voted to approve Board Member Melvoin’s Resolution to limit student screen time.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Kayla Bartkowski/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many of the boards elected this November will be tasked with deciding how their districts will weather shrinking student bodies, and whether to close schools as part of that process.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Many of the boards elected this November will be tasked with deciding how their districts will weather shrinking student bodies, and whether to close schools as part of that process.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/school-closures\">closure process\u003c/a> is almost always met with strong opposition from families and teachers, but how districts approach it can significantly change how it affects enrollment and trust.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/school-closures\">closure process\u003c/a> is almost always met with strong opposition from families and teachers, but how districts approach it can significantly change how it affects enrollment and trust.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s former superintendent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12010008/sf-schools-crisis-is-spiraling-with-top-official-to-resign-heres-all-thats-happened\">resigned under pressure\u003c/a> in 2024 after a botched closure process that strained relationships with the district’s labor unions and many families. But earlier this year, the school board \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095382/as-sfusd-welcomes-back-students-officials-plan-to-revamp-enrollment-consider-closures\">reopened the question of school consolidations\u003c/a>, giving Superintendent Maria Su a strict deadline of 2030 to decide whether campuses should shutter. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The board — including the three members who will be elected this fall — will have final approval over her plan.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Campus closures can upend longstanding school communities, and National School Board Association president Verjeana McCotter-Jacobs said they have rippling effects on nearby businesses, property values and neighborhood populations if they spur families to move.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Campus closures can upend longstanding school communities, and National School Board Association president Verjeana McCotter-Jacobs said they have rippling effects on nearby businesses, property values and neighborhood populations if they spur families to move.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Of the 140 Bay Area school board candidates who responded to KQED’s question about school closures, 57% said they would consider supporting a proposal from their district to close schools, while 43% said they would oppose the practice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Of the 140 Bay Area school board candidates who responded to KQED’s question about school closures, 57% said they would consider supporting a proposal from their district to close schools, while 43% said they would oppose the practice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Boards are also setting the course for the future of technology in classrooms, as parent-led backlash expands across the country, blaming overreliance on screens and artificial intelligence for poor learning outcomes. According to a joint Education Scorecard project from researchers at Stanford, Harvard and Dartmouth universities, falling test scores reflect a \u003ca href=\"https://cepr.harvard.edu/news/2026/05/why-us-test-scores-are-generation-long-decline\">decadelong “learning recession.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Boards are also setting the course for the future of technology in classrooms, as parent-led backlash expands across the country, blaming overreliance on screens and artificial intelligence for poor learning outcomes. According to a joint Education Scorecard project from researchers at Stanford, Harvard and Dartmouth universities, falling test scores reflect a \u003ca href=\"https://cepr.harvard.edu/news/2026/05/why-us-test-scores-are-generation-long-decline\">decadelong “learning recession.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the spring, the Los Angeles Unified School District board passed a slate of historic tech-limiting policies, proposed by board member Nick Melvoin, with advocacy group Schools Beyond Screens. Districts across the country have moved quickly to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096557/a-chromebook-in-the-hand-of-every-child-did-schools-go-too-far\">replicate their model\u003c/a>, including in the Bay Area, from San José to Marin.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the spring, the Los Angeles Unified School District board passed a slate of historic tech-limiting policies, proposed by board member Nick Melvoin, with advocacy group Schools Beyond Screens. Districts across the country have moved quickly to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096557/a-chromebook-in-the-hand-of-every-child-did-schools-go-too-far\">replicate their model\u003c/a>, including in the Bay Area, from San José to Marin.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Last week, the Oakland school board approved new technology restrictions, proposed by board member Rachel Latta, that prohibit students from using individual devices during lunch and passing periods, and mandate training for teachers to reduce 1:1 device use by the fall of 2027. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Last week, the Oakland school board approved new technology restrictions, proposed by board member Rachel Latta, that prohibit students from using individual devices during lunch and passing periods, and mandate training for teachers to reduce 1:1 device use by the fall of 2027. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Other districts in San Francisco, San Mateo and Palo Alto have formed ad hoc committees or working groups to consider stricter tech policies, which will be presented to their new boards in the spring.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s public school district is relatively behind on limiting tech use — the current board allowed administrators to punt on a stricter cellphone policy last spring, and it uses a controversial AI-assisted reading assessment and tutoring tool with kindergarteners.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s public school district is relatively behind on limiting tech use — the current board allowed administrators to punt on a stricter cellphone policy last spring, and it uses a controversial AI-assisted reading assessment and tutoring tool with kindergarteners.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Voters aren’t just choosing who will make major instructional decisions at their local school districts; Valant said voting in school board elections this November will send an important message amid what he calls a “federal attack” on public schools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Voters aren’t just choosing who will make major instructional decisions at their local school districts; Valant said voting in school board elections this November will send an important message amid what he calls a “federal attack” on public schools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Staying engaged with school boards, with education, with your local public school, is just really important in communicating that public schools are institutions that mean a lot to this country,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since taking office last year, Trump has signed an executive order directing the dismantling of the Department of Education and created a federal \u003ca href=\"https://www.ed.gov/media/document/education-freedom-tax-credit-fact-sheet-113147.pdf\">Education Freedom Scholarship Program\u003c/a>, which aims to expand parents’ school choice by allowing them to receive tax credits up to $1,700 that can be used to pay for private school tuition, home-schooling costs, and other educational support.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Since taking office last year, Trump has signed an executive order directing the dismantling of the Department of Education and created a federal \u003ca href=\"https://www.ed.gov/media/document/education-freedom-tax-credit-fact-sheet-113147.pdf\">Education Freedom Scholarship Program\u003c/a>, which aims to expand parents’ school choice by allowing them to receive tax credits up to $1,700 that can be used to pay for private school tuition, home-schooling costs, and other educational support.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2285787606-scaled-e1791586238561.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091600\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump addresses the nation from the East Room of the White House on July 16, 2026, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Saul Loeb/Pool via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2285787606-scaled-e1791586238561.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091600\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump addresses the nation from the East Room of the White House on July 16, 2026, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Saul Loeb/Pool via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Those together are the biggest change in school policy since at least the early 1990s,” said professor Doug Harris, the director of the National Center for Research on Education Access and Choice at Tulane University. “The idea of open access or universal access to schools is upended. Public education has always involved some public governance, and this eliminates [that].”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Those together are the biggest change in school policy since at least the early 1990s,” said professor Doug Harris, the director of the National Center for Research on Education Access and Choice at Tulane University. “The idea of open access or universal access to schools is upended. Public education has always involved some public governance, and this eliminates [that].”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Valant called the universal private school choice policies, adopted by more than half of U.S. states, not including California, “intentionally hostile to public schools.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Valant called the universal private school choice policies, adopted by more than half of U.S. states, not including California, “intentionally hostile to public schools.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While the federal government has suggested that school choice increases competition and will improve public schools, Valant and others worry it will siphon funds away from the public system and toward schools that are able to select which students they serve — and often teach religious material.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While the federal government has suggested that school choice increases competition and will improve public schools, Valant and others worry it will siphon funds away from the public system and toward schools that are able to select which students they serve — and often teach religious material.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Trump administration has also threatened to withhold federal dollars from school districts that teach about diversity, equity and inclusion, or promote policies that protect transgender students. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In June, the Department of Education launched compliance reviews into SFUSD and three Monterey County school districts over their policies and materials related to gender identity and sexual orientation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In June, the Department of Education launched compliance reviews into SFUSD and three Monterey County school districts over their policies and materials related to gender identity and sexual orientation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Later that month, San Francisco Superintendent Su was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086522/congress-to-grill-san-francisco-schools-chief-maria-su-about-gender-ethnic-studies\">called to testify\u003c/a> before Congress about parental rights and “inappropriate” course curriculum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Later that month, San Francisco Superintendent Su was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086522/congress-to-grill-san-francisco-schools-chief-maria-su-about-gender-ethnic-studies\">called to testify\u003c/a> before Congress about parental rights and “inappropriate” course curriculum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>All of that adds up to a current moment that Marsh described as an attack on public education and democracy at large, adding that voting is essential to maintain those institutions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“A democracy that focuses on the common good … actually requires people to look out for other kids, not just their own families,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“School boards are one of our few local institutions that are both defending democracy and public education,” she said. “The federal government can’t do anything about our boards — the school board system is well established, and I think we need to defend that.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“School boards are one of our few local institutions that are both defending democracy and public education,” she said. “The federal government can’t do anything about our boards — the school board system is well established, and I think we need to defend that.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Public schools across the Bay Area are facing “some unambiguously big problems,” education experts say, but the elections for local school boards often fly under the radar.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>In \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/educationnews\">school districts\u003c/a> across the Bay Area, years of declining enrollment are forcing major cuts and closures; students’ math and reading scores are in a \u003ca href=\"https://cepr.harvard.edu/news/2026/05/why-us-test-scores-are-generation-long-decline\">free fall\u003c/a>; and campuses are being confronted with many of our major political fights, from transgender rights to AI regulation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in many cases, the people elected to navigate these challenges earn that significant power by a margin as small as a couple hundred votes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>More than half of school board candidates across the U.S. run uncontested in an average election cycle, and voter turnout hovers between 5% and 10%. And school board races tend to be “low information,” meaning voters know little about who the candidates are or where they stand on key issues, many of which are similar across districts throughout the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED asked \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">390 candidates vying for 109 school board seats\u003c/a> across the nine-county Bay Area in November for their stance on some of these topics, from potential school closures to cellphone use — information voters can use at a time that education experts say is pivotal to public schools’ success. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have some unambiguously big problems for schools,” said Jon Valant, who directs the Brown Center on Education Policy at the Brookings Institution. “You can have a big impact, and you can have a big impact at a time when schools are facing a lot of important questions.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What do school boards actually do?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>School boards oversee large budgets, act as major employers and make policy and curriculum decisions that affect thousands of young people — and have rippling impacts on their wider communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“[Public schools] are the primary institutions that we have for preparing people to be contributing members of our society, democracy and economy,” Valant said. “When you’re participating in a school board election, you’re really having a say in the structure of our society more broadly.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094191\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-8-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A classroom at Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. Mission Bay School is the first new public SFUSD school to open in 20 years. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The bodies have a few main functions: approving a school district’s budget — which for an urban district like San Francisco, tops $1.36 billion — and hiring and evaluating a superintendent, the person “who’s really responsible for running the system,” according to Julie Marsh, a faculty director at Policy Analysis for California Education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>School boards set priorities, such as student outcome goals and community values, that are supposed to guide decision-making by the superintendent and district staff. They also approve curriculum and labor contracts and can steer high-level policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Culture war battlegrounds\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Less officially, school boards have also become political arenas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Schools and particularly school boards have really become some of the country’s main battlegrounds for its culture wars,” Valant said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He traces the trend back to the COVID-19 pandemic, when some groups of parents began organizing and rallying against masking and vaccine mandates.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1571\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103881\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437-160x126.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/MomsLibertyGetty-52a1d437-1536x1207.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Martha Aguilera, left, with Karen Frost of Moms for Liberty, speaks at the California Policy Center and PERK (Protection of the Educational Rights of Kids) event, “A Line in the Sand, A Rally for Parental Rights,” at Rancho Madera Community Park in Simi Valley, California, on Sept. 26, 2023. (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Around the same time, groups like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101904708/conservative-mothers-as-a-political-force-in-california\">Moms for Liberty\u003c/a> were on the rise, advocating against curriculum that teaches about LGBTQ rights and race and ethnicity. They began running school board candidates and establishing a sustained presence at school board meetings, sowing fear that public schools are pushing “woke indoctrination.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen far-right leaders who have been quite successful with this approach where they run well-funded groups, organize and run a candidate on an ideological platform,” Marsh said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She and other experts said the rise of candidates running for the nonpartisan roles backed by political interest groups became especially prominent in the early 2020s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While these groups’ influence on school board races seems to be dying down in California, Valant said a recent national Brookings survey found that school board members still feel their governance has become more political and partisan in recent years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marsh said that conservative groups have also used the tactic to upend trust in school systems more broadly and “mobilize their base.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s a whole strategy of creating a bench for potential candidates for higher office,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1372\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086196\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Sonja-Shaw-Getty-1-1536x1054.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Sonja Shaw, Chino Valley Unified School District Board President, speaks at the California Policy Center and PERK (Protection of the Educational Rights of Kids) event, “A Line in the Sand: A Rally for Parental Rights,” at Rancho Madera Community Park in Simi Valley, California, on Sept. 26, 2023. (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sonja Shaw, who is in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086044/conservative-activist-sonja-shaw-advances-in-state-superintendent-race\">runoff election for California state superintendent\u003c/a> this November, rose to notoriety as Chino Valley’s school board president in 2023, when she pushed for a policy that would require school staff to notify parents of any change in their children’s gender identity. Shaw made headlines after current state Superintendent Tony Thurmond was heckled and removed from her district’s board meeting after he expressed opposition to the policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The policy was permanently halted in 2024, after a lawsuit from Attorney General Rob Bonta, along with similar campaigns to implement “forced outing” in Rocklin and counties in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump also harnessed fear surrounding schools’ policies around LGBTQ students in the final stretch of his 2024 reelection campaign, telling a crowd of about 20,000 at Madison Square Garden, “we will get … transgender insanity the hell out of our schools.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He repeatedly told voters: “your kid goes to school and comes home a few days later with an operation,” changing their sex.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">‘Big, big issues’\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While “culture war politics” draw attention and tend to spur single-issue candidates to run for school boards, Valant said, “we need really to be focused on some of the core issues in education.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“[Artificial intelligence] has kind of landed on schools’ laps, and questions about how technology should be embedded into the school day,” he said. “We’ve seen achievement declines across the country and growing gaps between the highest- and lowest-scoring students. We’ve seen chronic absenteeism and enrollment declines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And, we’ve seen a growing attack on public education across the country,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/LAUSDScreenTimeGetty-d975feb9-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Nick Melvoin, Member of the Los Angeles Unified School District, speaks during a board meeting at the LAUSD headquarters on April 21, 2026, in Los Angeles, California. The LAUSD met to discuss a resolution calling for development of a Screen Time Policy setting time limits by grade, including elimination of student digital devices for early education through first grade, prohibiting device use by elementary and middle school students during passing periods, lunch and recess. The board unanimously voted to approve Board Member Melvoin’s Resolution to limit student screen time. (Kayla Bartkowski/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the boards elected this November will be tasked with deciding how their districts will weather shrinking student bodies, and whether to close schools as part of that process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/school-closures\">closure process\u003c/a> is almost always met with strong opposition from families and teachers, but how districts approach it can significantly change how it affects enrollment and trust.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s former superintendent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12010008/sf-schools-crisis-is-spiraling-with-top-official-to-resign-heres-all-thats-happened\">resigned under pressure\u003c/a> in 2024 after a botched closure process that strained relationships with the district’s labor unions and many families. But earlier this year, the school board \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095382/as-sfusd-welcomes-back-students-officials-plan-to-revamp-enrollment-consider-closures\">reopened the question of school consolidations\u003c/a>, giving Superintendent Maria Su a strict deadline of 2030 to decide whether campuses should shutter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The board — including the three members who will be elected this fall — will have final approval over her plan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Campus closures can upend longstanding school communities, and National School Board Association president Verjeana McCotter-Jacobs said they have rippling effects on nearby businesses, property values and neighborhood populations if they spur families to move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Of the 140 Bay Area school board candidates who responded to KQED’s question about school closures, 57% said they would consider supporting a proposal from their district to close schools, while 43% said they would oppose the practice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Boards are also setting the course for the future of technology in classrooms, as parent-led backlash expands across the country, blaming overreliance on screens and artificial intelligence for poor learning outcomes. According to a joint Education Scorecard project from researchers at Stanford, Harvard and Dartmouth universities, falling test scores reflect a \u003ca href=\"https://cepr.harvard.edu/news/2026/05/why-us-test-scores-are-generation-long-decline\">decadelong “learning recession.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the spring, the Los Angeles Unified School District board passed a slate of historic tech-limiting policies, proposed by board member Nick Melvoin, with advocacy group Schools Beyond Screens. Districts across the country have moved quickly to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096557/a-chromebook-in-the-hand-of-every-child-did-schools-go-too-far\">replicate their model\u003c/a>, including in the Bay Area, from San José to Marin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last week, the Oakland school board approved new technology restrictions, proposed by board member Rachel Latta, that prohibit students from using individual devices during lunch and passing periods, and mandate training for teachers to reduce 1:1 device use by the fall of 2027. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other districts in San Francisco, San Mateo and Palo Alto have formed ad hoc committees or working groups to consider stricter tech policies, which will be presented to their new boards in the spring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s public school district is relatively behind on limiting tech use — the current board allowed administrators to punt on a stricter cellphone policy last spring, and it uses a controversial AI-assisted reading assessment and tutoring tool with kindergarteners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Combatting federal attacks\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Voters aren’t just choosing who will make major instructional decisions at their local school districts; Valant said voting in school board elections this November will send an important message amid what he calls a “federal attack” on public schools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Staying engaged with school boards, with education, with your local public school, is just really important in communicating that public schools are institutions that mean a lot to this country,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since taking office last year, Trump has signed an executive order directing the dismantling of the Department of Education and created a federal \u003ca href=\"https://www.ed.gov/media/document/education-freedom-tax-credit-fact-sheet-113147.pdf\">Education Freedom Scholarship Program\u003c/a>, which aims to expand parents’ school choice by allowing them to receive tax credits up to $1,700 that can be used to pay for private school tuition, home-schooling costs, and other educational support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2285787606-scaled-e1791586238561.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091600\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump addresses the nation from the East Room of the White House on July 16, 2026, in Washington, D.C. (Saul Loeb/Pool via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Those together are the biggest change in school policy since at least the early 1990s,” said professor Doug Harris, the director of the National Center for Research on Education Access and Choice at Tulane University. “The idea of open access or universal access to schools is upended. Public education has always involved some public governance, and this eliminates [that].”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Valant called the universal private school choice policies, adopted by more than half of U.S. states, not including California, “intentionally hostile to public schools.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While the federal government has suggested that school choice increases competition and will improve public schools, Valant and others worry it will siphon funds away from the public system and toward schools that are able to select which students they serve — and often teach religious material.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Trump administration has also threatened to withhold federal dollars from school districts that teach about diversity, equity and inclusion, or promote policies that protect transgender students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In June, the Department of Education launched compliance reviews into SFUSD and three Monterey County school districts over their policies and materials related to gender identity and sexual orientation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MariaSuAP2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MariaSuAP2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MariaSuAP2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MariaSuAP2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Unified School District Superintendent Dr. Maria Su testifies during a House Education and Workforce Committee hearing on parental rights and school content policies, on June 10, 2026, in Washington. (Kevin Wolf/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Later that month, San Francisco Superintendent Su was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086522/congress-to-grill-san-francisco-schools-chief-maria-su-about-gender-ethnic-studies\">called to testify\u003c/a> before Congress about parental rights and “inappropriate” course curriculum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All of that adds up to a current moment that Marsh described as an attack on public education and democracy at large, adding that voting is essential to maintain those institutions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A democracy that focuses on the common good … actually requires people to look out for other kids, not just their own families,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“School boards are one of our few local institutions that are both defending democracy and public education,” she said. “The federal government can’t do anything about our boards — the school board system is well established, and I think we need to defend that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships? | Close All Tabs Presents",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, KQED’s series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guest:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ameliagmiller.com/\">Amelia Miller\u003c/a>, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101795/are-chatbots-harming-our-relationships\">Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/a> — Lesley McClurg, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s \u003cem>Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/em> From Inside Love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s \u003cem>Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/em> From Inside Love. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, KQED’s series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guest:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ameliagmiller.com/\">Amelia Miller\u003c/a>, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101795/are-chatbots-harming-our-relationships\">Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/a> — Lesley McClurg, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s \u003cem>Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/em> From Inside Love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Too Many Bots in the Kitchen? Williams Sonoma Bans AI Shoppers",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco-based Williams Sonoma and Pottery Barn sent emails to customers this week, updating terms of service to bar \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038439/ai-could-soon-shop-for-you-can-we-trust-it-with-our-credit-cards\">customer AI agents from shopping\u003c/a> on their websites without the company’s written permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new \u003ca href=\"https://www.williams-sonoma.com/customer-service/legal-statement.html\">terms\u003c/a>, which apply across all brands under parent company Williams-Sonoma Inc., forbid customers from letting any “agent,” “assistant,” bot or AI-enabled software use their accounts or buy things on their behalf. Any automated tool that does interact with the sites must identify itself as automated. And a customer’s permission doesn’t count as the company’s: Williams Sonoma said it can block any third party “including where you have purported to authorize such access.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The terms also make customers responsible for all activity on their accounts, “whether or not you authorized that activity.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Williams-Sonoma Inc. did not respond to KQED’s request for comment in time for publication.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In August, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/amazon-loses-us-court-ban-perplexitys-ai-shopping-tools-2026-08-04/\">federal appeals court ruled\u003c/a> in Amazon’s lawsuit against San Francisco-based Perplexity that \u003ca href=\"https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/jnvwzrbxmpw/AMAZON%20PERPLEXITY%20LAWSUIT%209thcir.pdf\">the user, not the AI company, is the one accessing a website\u003c/a> when an AI agent shops for them. That weakened retailers’ ability to use anti-hacking law against agents, but the court said companies could still set rules through their terms of service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1321\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12104275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Williams Sonoma store in the upscale Stanford Shopping Center in Palo Alto, California. (Sundry Photography/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In plain English, the fight to control which AI agents get to guide our shopping decisions is on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Loyola Marymount University law professor Lauren Willis said the new terms are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100624/newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law\">likely legal\u003c/a>, for now. She \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">wants the law to require\u003c/a> retailers to accept shoppers’ AI agents, and “a requirement that the agents act in the best interest of the consumer, rather than the provider of the agent.” She pointed to proposals from the \u003ca href=\"https://www.europeanlawinstitute.eu\">European Law Institute\u003c/a> to require businesses to permit consumers to use digital shopping assistants in their transactions with the business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>An analysis by the e-commerce marketing firm Productrise found Google’s AI offers up \u003ca href=\"https://productrise.app/blog/google-ai-mode-prefers-more-expensive-products\">more expensive options\u003c/a> than a regular Google search. Willis said that a growing number of AI chatbot developers like Meta and OpenAI are selling advertising, which creates a natural conflict of interest. “They’re able to track whether you’ve clicked on something that they’ve given you and therefore can be biased by that,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some \u003ca href=\"https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/loewenstein/WhenSunLightFails.pdf\">research\u003c/a> has shown that disclosing a conflict of interest can backfire, leading consumers to trust the adviser more, not less. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“What’s the business case for blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101819/sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask\">agentic AI\u003c/a>?” Eric Goldman, associate dean for research and professor at the Santa Clara University School of Law, told KQED. When websites don’t explain themselves, he said, blocking “often looks just like an overreaction to AI.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s despite the fact that the Williams Sonoma group uses AI on its website. The Williams Sonoma chatbot introduced itself to this reporter as “Olive, your AI Sous Chef.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Goldman said AI agents can serve consumers, retailers or only the companies that make them, and it isn’t always easy to tell which. But “in general, we should be encouraging consumers to find the tools that work best for them and to let them use them,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The battle over what consumers can use to access a website is almost as old as commercial internet,” Goldman said. Around 2000, websites battled Third Voice, a tool that let users post comments layered on top of any site. Two decades ago, retailers fought adware pop-ups that displayed competitors’ offers on their pages. More recently, critics have argued the Honey browser extension siphoned affiliate commissions away from websites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Goldman thinks retailers will eventually lose the ability to single out AI agents at all. “Many of the things that might be considered to be problematic about agentic AI ultimately will likely be built into a standard web browser,” he said. Blocking “only works as long as it’s really separate from the standard technology users are using.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“And I think that’s going to collapse over time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Loyola Marymount University law professor Lauren Willis said the new terms are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100624/newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law\">likely legal\u003c/a>, for now. She \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">wants the law to require\u003c/a> retailers to accept shoppers’ AI agents, and “a requirement that the agents act in the best interest of the consumer, rather than the provider of the agent.” She pointed to proposals from the \u003ca href=\"https://www.europeanlawinstitute.eu\">European Law Institute\u003c/a> to require businesses to permit consumers to use digital shopping assistants in their transactions with the business.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Loyola Marymount University law professor Lauren Willis said the new terms are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100624/newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law\">likely legal\u003c/a>, for now. She \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">wants the law to require\u003c/a> retailers to accept shoppers’ AI agents, and “a requirement that the agents act in the best interest of the consumer, rather than the provider of the agent.” She pointed to proposals from the \u003ca href=\"https://www.europeanlawinstitute.eu\">European Law Institute\u003c/a> to require businesses to permit consumers to use digital shopping assistants in their transactions with the business.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>An analysis by the e-commerce marketing firm Productrise found Google’s AI offers up \u003ca href=\"https://productrise.app/blog/google-ai-mode-prefers-more-expensive-products\">more expensive options\u003c/a> than a regular Google search. Willis said that a growing number of AI chatbot developers like Meta and OpenAI are selling advertising, which creates a natural conflict of interest. “They’re able to track whether you’ve clicked on something that they’ve given you and therefore can be biased by that,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some \u003ca href=\"https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/loewenstein/WhenSunLightFails.pdf\">research\u003c/a> has shown that disclosing a conflict of interest can backfire, leading consumers to trust the adviser more, not less. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“What’s the business case for blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101819/sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask\">agentic AI\u003c/a>?” Eric Goldman, associate dean for research and professor at the Santa Clara University School of Law, told KQED. When websites don’t explain themselves, he said, blocking “often looks just like an overreaction to AI.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s despite the fact that the Williams Sonoma group uses AI on its website. The Williams Sonoma chatbot introduced itself to this reporter as “Olive, your AI Sous Chef.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Goldman said AI agents can serve consumers, retailers or only the companies that make them, and it isn’t always easy to tell which. But “in general, we should be encouraging consumers to find the tools that work best for them and to let them use them,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Goldman said AI agents can serve consumers, retailers or only the companies that make them, and it isn’t always easy to tell which. But “in general, we should be encouraging consumers to find the tools that work best for them and to let them use them,” he said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The battle over what consumers can use to access a website is almost as old as commercial internet,” Goldman said. Around 2000, websites battled Third Voice, a tool that let users post comments layered on top of any site. Two decades ago, retailers fought adware pop-ups that displayed competitors’ offers on their pages. More recently, critics have argued the Honey browser extension siphoned affiliate commissions away from websites.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Goldman thinks retailers will eventually lose the ability to single out AI agents at all. “Many of the things that might be considered to be problematic about agentic AI ultimately will likely be built into a standard web browser,” he said. Blocking “only works as long as it’s really separate from the standard technology users are using.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“And I think that’s going to collapse over time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "It looks like Olive, Williams Sonoma’s “AI Sous Chef,” will be the only AI agent allowed on its website. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>San Francisco-based Williams Sonoma and Pottery Barn sent emails to customers this week, updating terms of service to bar \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038439/ai-could-soon-shop-for-you-can-we-trust-it-with-our-credit-cards\">customer AI agents from shopping\u003c/a> on their websites without the company’s written permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new \u003ca href=\"https://www.williams-sonoma.com/customer-service/legal-statement.html\">terms\u003c/a>, which apply across all brands under parent company Williams-Sonoma Inc., forbid customers from letting any “agent,” “assistant,” bot or AI-enabled software use their accounts or buy things on their behalf. Any automated tool that does interact with the sites must identify itself as automated. And a customer’s permission doesn’t count as the company’s: Williams Sonoma said it can block any third party “including where you have purported to authorize such access.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The terms also make customers responsible for all activity on their accounts, “whether or not you authorized that activity.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Williams-Sonoma Inc. did not respond to KQED’s request for comment in time for publication.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In August, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/amazon-loses-us-court-ban-perplexitys-ai-shopping-tools-2026-08-04/\">federal appeals court ruled\u003c/a> in Amazon’s lawsuit against San Francisco-based Perplexity that \u003ca href=\"https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/jnvwzrbxmpw/AMAZON%20PERPLEXITY%20LAWSUIT%209thcir.pdf\">the user, not the AI company, is the one accessing a website\u003c/a> when an AI agent shops for them. That weakened retailers’ ability to use anti-hacking law against agents, but the court said companies could still set rules through their terms of service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1321\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12104275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Williams Sonoma store in the upscale Stanford Shopping Center in Palo Alto, California. (Sundry Photography/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In plain English, the fight to control which AI agents get to guide our shopping decisions is on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Loyola Marymount University law professor Lauren Willis said the new terms are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100624/newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law\">likely legal\u003c/a>, for now. She \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">wants the law to require\u003c/a> retailers to accept shoppers’ AI agents, and “a requirement that the agents act in the best interest of the consumer, rather than the provider of the agent.” She pointed to proposals from the \u003ca href=\"https://www.europeanlawinstitute.eu\">European Law Institute\u003c/a> to require businesses to permit consumers to use digital shopping assistants in their transactions with the business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>An analysis by the e-commerce marketing firm Productrise found Google’s AI offers up \u003ca href=\"https://productrise.app/blog/google-ai-mode-prefers-more-expensive-products\">more expensive options\u003c/a> than a regular Google search. Willis said that a growing number of AI chatbot developers like Meta and OpenAI are selling advertising, which creates a natural conflict of interest. “They’re able to track whether you’ve clicked on something that they’ve given you and therefore can be biased by that,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some \u003ca href=\"https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/loewenstein/WhenSunLightFails.pdf\">research\u003c/a> has shown that disclosing a conflict of interest can backfire, leading consumers to trust the adviser more, not less. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“What’s the business case for blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101819/sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask\">agentic AI\u003c/a>?” Eric Goldman, associate dean for research and professor at the Santa Clara University School of Law, told KQED. When websites don’t explain themselves, he said, blocking “often looks just like an overreaction to AI.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s despite the fact that the Williams Sonoma group uses AI on its website. The Williams Sonoma chatbot introduced itself to this reporter as “Olive, your AI Sous Chef.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Goldman said AI agents can serve consumers, retailers or only the companies that make them, and it isn’t always easy to tell which. But “in general, we should be encouraging consumers to find the tools that work best for them and to let them use them,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The battle over what consumers can use to access a website is almost as old as commercial internet,” Goldman said. Around 2000, websites battled Third Voice, a tool that let users post comments layered on top of any site. Two decades ago, retailers fought adware pop-ups that displayed competitors’ offers on their pages. More recently, critics have argued the Honey browser extension siphoned affiliate commissions away from websites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Goldman thinks retailers will eventually lose the ability to single out AI agents at all. “Many of the things that might be considered to be problematic about agentic AI ultimately will likely be built into a standard web browser,” he said. Blocking “only works as long as it’s really separate from the standard technology users are using.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“And I think that’s going to collapse over time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "ai-founders-cheer-trumps-calls-for-the-industry-to-police-itself-on-safety",
"title": "AI Founders Cheer Trump’s Calls for the Industry to Police Itself on Safety",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Tech Week comes to an end in San Francisco on Sunday, packing the city’s restaurants this last week with venture capitalists and founders ebullient about the White House’s stance on regulating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> — namely, don’t do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And after months of debate about leading AI companies’ unchecked AI agents meddling with everything from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101526/openai-pauses-training-of-latest-models-after-agents-probed-government-sites-in-unexpected-ways\">U.S. government websites\u003c/a> to healthcare data, the nation now finds itself further from governing AI systems than it was a few years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-anthropic-musk-595796511f110fc006cca0d01329733e\">brought tech titans to Washington\u003c/a> late last month for a luncheon and ceremonial signing of a voluntary safety pact he described as “almost a constitution” surrounding “Super Intelligence,” the administration’s new preferred term for AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066914\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence. Trump and tech leaders met last month to sign a voluntary safety pact surrounding AI. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The 308-word agreement lays out that advanced AI labs should follow safety protocols and set up internal teams to monitor their own progress, but the administration has yet to provide details on how, in OpenAI CEO Sam Altman’s words, to keep “bad things” from happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Safety challenges were not top of mind inside a crowded event space in San Francisco on Wednesday, where founders and funders said the government’s hands-off approach would net higher profits for companies building AI-powered defense and security systems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Panelists praised the government’s bullish industry support at one meeting aimed at “investing in the forefront,” part of the blitz of popup events organized by Andreessen Horowitz, a venture firm whose head is a Trump science and tech adviser.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I want to start with one figure that I think really emphasizes the investment opportunity of defense, and that’s $1 trillion. The U.S. government, for the first time, is allocating $1 trillion to its defense spending. And $13.5 billion of that will go to autonomous systems and AI,” said Kyle Stanford, a venture capital research director at PitchBook, a market intelligence platform. “That has obviously brought a lot of capital into defense tech spending, more than we’ve ever seen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">New concerns emerge on AI safety\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A day later, three researchers at OpenAI’s headquarters said the ChatGPT maker had fired them, posting that “fear and unclear rules stymie AI safety work.” Separately, David Robinson, a leader on OpenAI’s safety team until he recently resigned, said he was worried about letting the advanced labs police themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is no substitute for hard law, and it does give a lot of freedom to the companies,” Robinson said. “The time between model generations is measured in weeks … and I think we have some very serious safety challenges in front of us in the nearer term.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump has staked his political capital on the AI industry’s success, saying its unbridled development is key to winning the \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-ai-models-safety-concerns-adb45169d436d5f940fc7b4ebeaeef3b\">AI race against China\u003c/a>. On the first day of his second term, the Republican president \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-repeal-biden-executive-order-artificial-intelligence-18cb6e4ffd1ca87151d48c3a0e1ad7c1\">repealed a Biden-era executive order\u003c/a> aimed in part at guarding against the risks that AI systems pose to consumers, workers and national security.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His administration has since reoriented federal policy away from oversight and toward rapid growth, including by canceling \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/biden-ai-artificial-intelligence-safe-395591bcde523416db88767fa54f30f5\">previous requirements\u003c/a> for AI developers to share safety test results with the federal government. In December, Trump signed an executive order aimed at blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102337/newsom-signs-slate-of-ai-workplace-laws-barring-robo-bosses-and-surveillance\">AI regulations at the state level\u003c/a>, saying a patchwork of rules could stifle the industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even as Silicon Valley companies have disclosed their models’ involvement in troubling cyberattacks throughout the year, the burgeoning tech sector has continued to drive \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/tech-stocks-ai-investments-8a0ff4c95d5cae6f65c6e2ba03047058\">economic growth\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Concerns about AI safety centered on existential risk, rather than current real-world harms, landed at the center of debates last month, when a relatively unknown \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/anthropic-ai-safety-jacob-coxon-2ed549e07f2f941600a135070487d83d\">Anthropic engineer quit\u003c/a> and called for a pause on tech development to keep “superhuman” systems from eluding controls. Then, Anthropic and OpenAI CEOs echoed the call to slow AI development. To some critics, their public manifestos appeared aimed at \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ai-slowdown-midterms-anthropic-openai-ipo-9a057de94eb8f30a2fdb5b938918627e\">currying favor\u003c/a> with investors ahead of their public listings and the midterm elections, when the political tides could turn with many \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/data-centers-rural-farm-artificial-intelligence-trump-e5a350af1bc12e6a4f470d3b68be51d7\">voters opposed\u003c/a> to data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The only control or ‘guardrails’ that AI needs is a STRONG AND SMART (High IQ!) PRESIDENT, and the U.S.A. has that, in spades!” Trump posted in response on Truth Social, warning voters not to “kill the Golden Goose,” a term he has used to refer to both AI and data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">White House pact preserves wide latitude for AI companies\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As calls mounted for stricter control of AI, the administration brought tech executives to the White House for lunch, followed by a ceremonial signing of the agreement on AI safety.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m seeing tremendous self-policing,” Trump told reporters after the event.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The document was signed by representatives of OpenAI, Anthropic, Meta, Google, SpaceXAI and Nvidia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI is committed to embedding external assessors and finalizing contracts with third-party safety assessors, said a spokesperson, who referred AP to a company post stating that the researchers were fired for violating “clear policies on handling sensitive information.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT on March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Google referred to CEO Sundar Pichai’s post that the company does appropriate testing and evaluations and is collaborating “to establish norms and build public confidence.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meta recently updated its standards for training, evaluating and releasing its most capable AI models, and spokesman Andy Stone pointed to the company’s efforts to refine its board of directors’ governance structure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nvidia and SpaceXAI did not respond to requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which voluntarily disclosed Friday that its agents \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-anthropic-claude-0acc6ac46d4d80db805e8d55468a6fe1\">submitted a false tip\u003c/a> to a Philadelphia police website about an unsolved homicide case, is bringing in independent evaluators and discussing collaborations with industry groups, a spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, the White House reiterated Trump’s comments about working with industry to balance innovation and security and did not directly answer questions about how the administration plans to monitor the AI companies’ implementation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Following the new Anthropic disclosure, it added that the Trump administration expected full transparency from the company, saying notification and remediation was “not optional. It is a critical national security obligation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under Democratic President Joe Biden, leading AI companies also made voluntary commitments to promote “safe, secure, and transparent development” of their models that included specific guidelines for tests and transparency reports. The current accord lacks that, said Sarah Myers West, a former senior AI adviser to the Federal Trade Commission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Across the board, this self-regulatory approach has consistently done one thing, which is failed to work. It’s failed to in any meaningful way ensure that these companies are honestly even keeping their house in order, let alone ensuring that they are compliant with existing law,” said Myers West, now co-executive director of the New York-based nonprofit AI Now. “All that they’re getting is grace from this government.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After last month’s luncheon with Trump, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ftc-ai-investigation-anthropic-openai-89ac416717adbfb1d72f2d85e6ce83d1\">the FTC said\u003c/a> it had opened an investigation into OpenAI, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/anthropic-pbc\">Anthropic\u003c/a> and other companies over dangers their technology may pose to consumers. The FTC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump recently appointed National Intelligence Director Jay Clayton and FTC Chairman Andrew Ferguson to serve on his new “Super Intelligence Force,” which the president said would keep the U.S. dominant in AI development. He posted Thursday that the White House would consider anyone who does not refer to AI using his preferred term as “THE ENEMY!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Members of Congress, as well as civil liberties and consumer rights groups, have pushed for more regulations on AI, saying there is not enough oversight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Graham Steele, a former assistant secretary in the U.S. Treasury Department, said even if AI companies set up internal evaluation teams or hire outside evaluators, such a structure can make them vulnerable to undue pressure on their work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We live in a democratic society. Are they the right ones to have the power to be able to make decisions that have broad, structural, social, and political consequences?” Steele said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And after months of debate about leading AI companies’ unchecked AI agents meddling with everything from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101526/openai-pauses-training-of-latest-models-after-agents-probed-government-sites-in-unexpected-ways\">U.S. government websites\u003c/a> to healthcare data, the nation now finds itself further from governing AI systems than it was a few years ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-anthropic-musk-595796511f110fc006cca0d01329733e\">brought tech titans to Washington\u003c/a> late last month for a luncheon and ceremonial signing of a voluntary safety pact he described as “almost a constitution” surrounding “Super Intelligence,” the administration’s new preferred term for AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The 308-word agreement lays out that advanced AI labs should follow safety protocols and set up internal teams to monitor their own progress, but the administration has yet to provide details on how, in OpenAI CEO Sam Altman’s words, to keep “bad things” from happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Safety challenges were not top of mind inside a crowded event space in San Francisco on Wednesday, where founders and funders said the government’s hands-off approach would net higher profits for companies building AI-powered defense and security systems.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Panelists praised the government’s bullish industry support at one meeting aimed at “investing in the forefront,” part of the blitz of popup events organized by Andreessen Horowitz, a venture firm whose head is a Trump science and tech adviser.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I want to start with one figure that I think really emphasizes the investment opportunity of defense, and that’s $1 trillion. The U.S. government, for the first time, is allocating $1 trillion to its defense spending. And $13.5 billion of that will go to autonomous systems and AI,” said Kyle Stanford, a venture capital research director at PitchBook, a market intelligence platform. “That has obviously brought a lot of capital into defense tech spending, more than we’ve ever seen.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I want to start with one figure that I think really emphasizes the investment opportunity of defense, and that’s $1 trillion. The U.S. government, for the first time, is allocating $1 trillion to its defense spending. And $13.5 billion of that will go to autonomous systems and AI,” said Kyle Stanford, a venture capital research director at PitchBook, a market intelligence platform. “That has obviously brought a lot of capital into defense tech spending, more than we’ve ever seen.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A day later, three researchers at OpenAI’s headquarters said the ChatGPT maker had fired them, posting that “fear and unclear rules stymie AI safety work.” Separately, David Robinson, a leader on OpenAI’s safety team until he recently resigned, said he was worried about letting the advanced labs police themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This is no substitute for hard law, and it does give a lot of freedom to the companies,” Robinson said. “The time between model generations is measured in weeks … and I think we have some very serious safety challenges in front of us in the nearer term.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Trump has staked his political capital on the AI industry’s success, saying its unbridled development is key to winning the \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-ai-models-safety-concerns-adb45169d436d5f940fc7b4ebeaeef3b\">AI race against China\u003c/a>. On the first day of his second term, the Republican president \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-repeal-biden-executive-order-artificial-intelligence-18cb6e4ffd1ca87151d48c3a0e1ad7c1\">repealed a Biden-era executive order\u003c/a> aimed in part at guarding against the risks that AI systems pose to consumers, workers and national security.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His administration has since reoriented federal policy away from oversight and toward rapid growth, including by canceling \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/biden-ai-artificial-intelligence-safe-395591bcde523416db88767fa54f30f5\">previous requirements\u003c/a> for AI developers to share safety test results with the federal government. In December, Trump signed an executive order aimed at blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102337/newsom-signs-slate-of-ai-workplace-laws-barring-robo-bosses-and-surveillance\">AI regulations at the state level\u003c/a>, saying a patchwork of rules could stifle the industry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Even as Silicon Valley companies have disclosed their models’ involvement in troubling cyberattacks throughout the year, the burgeoning tech sector has continued to drive \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/tech-stocks-ai-investments-8a0ff4c95d5cae6f65c6e2ba03047058\">economic growth\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Concerns about AI safety centered on existential risk, rather than current real-world harms, landed at the center of debates last month, when a relatively unknown \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/anthropic-ai-safety-jacob-coxon-2ed549e07f2f941600a135070487d83d\">Anthropic engineer quit\u003c/a> and called for a pause on tech development to keep “superhuman” systems from eluding controls. Then, Anthropic and OpenAI CEOs echoed the call to slow AI development. To some critics, their public manifestos appeared aimed at \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ai-slowdown-midterms-anthropic-openai-ipo-9a057de94eb8f30a2fdb5b938918627e\">currying favor\u003c/a> with investors ahead of their public listings and the midterm elections, when the political tides could turn with many \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/data-centers-rural-farm-artificial-intelligence-trump-e5a350af1bc12e6a4f470d3b68be51d7\">voters opposed\u003c/a> to data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Concerns about AI safety centered on existential risk, rather than current real-world harms, landed at the center of debates last month, when a relatively unknown \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/anthropic-ai-safety-jacob-coxon-2ed549e07f2f941600a135070487d83d\">Anthropic engineer quit\u003c/a> and called for a pause on tech development to keep “superhuman” systems from eluding controls. Then, Anthropic and OpenAI CEOs echoed the call to slow AI development. To some critics, their public manifestos appeared aimed at \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ai-slowdown-midterms-anthropic-openai-ipo-9a057de94eb8f30a2fdb5b938918627e\">currying favor\u003c/a> with investors ahead of their public listings and the midterm elections, when the political tides could turn with many \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/data-centers-rural-farm-artificial-intelligence-trump-e5a350af1bc12e6a4f470d3b68be51d7\">voters opposed\u003c/a> to data centers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The only control or ‘guardrails’ that AI needs is a STRONG AND SMART (High IQ!) PRESIDENT, and the U.S.A. has that, in spades!” Trump posted in response on Truth Social, warning voters not to “kill the Golden Goose,” a term he has used to refer to both AI and data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I’m seeing tremendous self-policing,” Trump told reporters after the event.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The document was signed by representatives of OpenAI, Anthropic, Meta, Google, SpaceXAI and Nvidia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI is committed to embedding external assessors and finalizing contracts with third-party safety assessors, said a spokesperson, who referred AP to a company post stating that the researchers were fired for violating “clear policies on handling sensitive information.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT on March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Google referred to CEO Sundar Pichai’s post that the company does appropriate testing and evaluations and is collaborating “to establish norms and build public confidence.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meta recently updated its standards for training, evaluating and releasing its most capable AI models, and spokesman Andy Stone pointed to the company’s efforts to refine its board of directors’ governance structure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which voluntarily disclosed Friday that its agents \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-anthropic-claude-0acc6ac46d4d80db805e8d55468a6fe1\">submitted a false tip\u003c/a> to a Philadelphia police website about an unsolved homicide case, is bringing in independent evaluators and discussing collaborations with industry groups, a spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a statement, the White House reiterated Trump’s comments about working with industry to balance innovation and security and did not directly answer questions about how the administration plans to monitor the AI companies’ implementation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Following the new Anthropic disclosure, it added that the Trump administration expected full transparency from the company, saying notification and remediation was “not optional. It is a critical national security obligation.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Under Democratic President Joe Biden, leading AI companies also made voluntary commitments to promote “safe, secure, and transparent development” of their models that included specific guidelines for tests and transparency reports. The current accord lacks that, said Sarah Myers West, a former senior AI adviser to the Federal Trade Commission.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Across the board, this self-regulatory approach has consistently done one thing, which is failed to work. It’s failed to in any meaningful way ensure that these companies are honestly even keeping their house in order, let alone ensuring that they are compliant with existing law,” said Myers West, now co-executive director of the New York-based nonprofit AI Now. “All that they’re getting is grace from this government.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After last month’s luncheon with Trump, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ftc-ai-investigation-anthropic-openai-89ac416717adbfb1d72f2d85e6ce83d1\">the FTC said\u003c/a> it had opened an investigation into OpenAI, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/anthropic-pbc\">Anthropic\u003c/a> and other companies over dangers their technology may pose to consumers. The FTC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Trump recently appointed National Intelligence Director Jay Clayton and FTC Chairman Andrew Ferguson to serve on his new “Super Intelligence Force,” which the president said would keep the U.S. dominant in AI development. He posted Thursday that the White House would consider anyone who does not refer to AI using his preferred term as “THE ENEMY!”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Members of Congress, as well as civil liberties and consumer rights groups, have pushed for more regulations on AI, saying there is not enough oversight.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Graham Steele, a former assistant secretary in the U.S. Treasury Department, said even if AI companies set up internal evaluation teams or hire outside evaluators, such a structure can make them vulnerable to undue pressure on their work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We live in a democratic society. Are they the right ones to have the power to be able to make decisions that have broad, structural, social, and political consequences?” Steele said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Tech Week comes to an end in San Francisco on Sunday, packing the city’s restaurants this last week with venture capitalists and founders ebullient about the White House’s stance on regulating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> — namely, don’t do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And after months of debate about leading AI companies’ unchecked AI agents meddling with everything from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101526/openai-pauses-training-of-latest-models-after-agents-probed-government-sites-in-unexpected-ways\">U.S. government websites\u003c/a> to healthcare data, the nation now finds itself further from governing AI systems than it was a few years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-anthropic-musk-595796511f110fc006cca0d01329733e\">brought tech titans to Washington\u003c/a> late last month for a luncheon and ceremonial signing of a voluntary safety pact he described as “almost a constitution” surrounding “Super Intelligence,” the administration’s new preferred term for AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066914\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence. Trump and tech leaders met last month to sign a voluntary safety pact surrounding AI. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The 308-word agreement lays out that advanced AI labs should follow safety protocols and set up internal teams to monitor their own progress, but the administration has yet to provide details on how, in OpenAI CEO Sam Altman’s words, to keep “bad things” from happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Safety challenges were not top of mind inside a crowded event space in San Francisco on Wednesday, where founders and funders said the government’s hands-off approach would net higher profits for companies building AI-powered defense and security systems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Panelists praised the government’s bullish industry support at one meeting aimed at “investing in the forefront,” part of the blitz of popup events organized by Andreessen Horowitz, a venture firm whose head is a Trump science and tech adviser.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I want to start with one figure that I think really emphasizes the investment opportunity of defense, and that’s $1 trillion. The U.S. government, for the first time, is allocating $1 trillion to its defense spending. And $13.5 billion of that will go to autonomous systems and AI,” said Kyle Stanford, a venture capital research director at PitchBook, a market intelligence platform. “That has obviously brought a lot of capital into defense tech spending, more than we’ve ever seen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">New concerns emerge on AI safety\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A day later, three researchers at OpenAI’s headquarters said the ChatGPT maker had fired them, posting that “fear and unclear rules stymie AI safety work.” Separately, David Robinson, a leader on OpenAI’s safety team until he recently resigned, said he was worried about letting the advanced labs police themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is no substitute for hard law, and it does give a lot of freedom to the companies,” Robinson said. “The time between model generations is measured in weeks … and I think we have some very serious safety challenges in front of us in the nearer term.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump has staked his political capital on the AI industry’s success, saying its unbridled development is key to winning the \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-ai-models-safety-concerns-adb45169d436d5f940fc7b4ebeaeef3b\">AI race against China\u003c/a>. On the first day of his second term, the Republican president \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-repeal-biden-executive-order-artificial-intelligence-18cb6e4ffd1ca87151d48c3a0e1ad7c1\">repealed a Biden-era executive order\u003c/a> aimed in part at guarding against the risks that AI systems pose to consumers, workers and national security.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His administration has since reoriented federal policy away from oversight and toward rapid growth, including by canceling \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/biden-ai-artificial-intelligence-safe-395591bcde523416db88767fa54f30f5\">previous requirements\u003c/a> for AI developers to share safety test results with the federal government. In December, Trump signed an executive order aimed at blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102337/newsom-signs-slate-of-ai-workplace-laws-barring-robo-bosses-and-surveillance\">AI regulations at the state level\u003c/a>, saying a patchwork of rules could stifle the industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even as Silicon Valley companies have disclosed their models’ involvement in troubling cyberattacks throughout the year, the burgeoning tech sector has continued to drive \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/tech-stocks-ai-investments-8a0ff4c95d5cae6f65c6e2ba03047058\">economic growth\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Concerns about AI safety centered on existential risk, rather than current real-world harms, landed at the center of debates last month, when a relatively unknown \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/anthropic-ai-safety-jacob-coxon-2ed549e07f2f941600a135070487d83d\">Anthropic engineer quit\u003c/a> and called for a pause on tech development to keep “superhuman” systems from eluding controls. Then, Anthropic and OpenAI CEOs echoed the call to slow AI development. To some critics, their public manifestos appeared aimed at \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ai-slowdown-midterms-anthropic-openai-ipo-9a057de94eb8f30a2fdb5b938918627e\">currying favor\u003c/a> with investors ahead of their public listings and the midterm elections, when the political tides could turn with many \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/data-centers-rural-farm-artificial-intelligence-trump-e5a350af1bc12e6a4f470d3b68be51d7\">voters opposed\u003c/a> to data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The only control or ‘guardrails’ that AI needs is a STRONG AND SMART (High IQ!) PRESIDENT, and the U.S.A. has that, in spades!” Trump posted in response on Truth Social, warning voters not to “kill the Golden Goose,” a term he has used to refer to both AI and data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">White House pact preserves wide latitude for AI companies\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As calls mounted for stricter control of AI, the administration brought tech executives to the White House for lunch, followed by a ceremonial signing of the agreement on AI safety.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m seeing tremendous self-policing,” Trump told reporters after the event.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The document was signed by representatives of OpenAI, Anthropic, Meta, Google, SpaceXAI and Nvidia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI is committed to embedding external assessors and finalizing contracts with third-party safety assessors, said a spokesperson, who referred AP to a company post stating that the researchers were fired for violating “clear policies on handling sensitive information.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT on March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Google referred to CEO Sundar Pichai’s post that the company does appropriate testing and evaluations and is collaborating “to establish norms and build public confidence.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meta recently updated its standards for training, evaluating and releasing its most capable AI models, and spokesman Andy Stone pointed to the company’s efforts to refine its board of directors’ governance structure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nvidia and SpaceXAI did not respond to requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which voluntarily disclosed Friday that its agents \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-anthropic-claude-0acc6ac46d4d80db805e8d55468a6fe1\">submitted a false tip\u003c/a> to a Philadelphia police website about an unsolved homicide case, is bringing in independent evaluators and discussing collaborations with industry groups, a spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, the White House reiterated Trump’s comments about working with industry to balance innovation and security and did not directly answer questions about how the administration plans to monitor the AI companies’ implementation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Following the new Anthropic disclosure, it added that the Trump administration expected full transparency from the company, saying notification and remediation was “not optional. It is a critical national security obligation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under Democratic President Joe Biden, leading AI companies also made voluntary commitments to promote “safe, secure, and transparent development” of their models that included specific guidelines for tests and transparency reports. The current accord lacks that, said Sarah Myers West, a former senior AI adviser to the Federal Trade Commission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Across the board, this self-regulatory approach has consistently done one thing, which is failed to work. It’s failed to in any meaningful way ensure that these companies are honestly even keeping their house in order, let alone ensuring that they are compliant with existing law,” said Myers West, now co-executive director of the New York-based nonprofit AI Now. “All that they’re getting is grace from this government.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After last month’s luncheon with Trump, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ftc-ai-investigation-anthropic-openai-89ac416717adbfb1d72f2d85e6ce83d1\">the FTC said\u003c/a> it had opened an investigation into OpenAI, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/anthropic-pbc\">Anthropic\u003c/a> and other companies over dangers their technology may pose to consumers. The FTC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump recently appointed National Intelligence Director Jay Clayton and FTC Chairman Andrew Ferguson to serve on his new “Super Intelligence Force,” which the president said would keep the U.S. dominant in AI development. He posted Thursday that the White House would consider anyone who does not refer to AI using his preferred term as “THE ENEMY!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Members of Congress, as well as civil liberties and consumer rights groups, have pushed for more regulations on AI, saying there is not enough oversight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Graham Steele, a former assistant secretary in the U.S. Treasury Department, said even if AI companies set up internal evaluation teams or hire outside evaluators, such a structure can make them vulnerable to undue pressure on their work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We live in a democratic society. Are they the right ones to have the power to be able to make decisions that have broad, structural, social, and political consequences?” Steele said.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Tech Workers Have Long Resisted Unions. Will AI and Politics Change the Equation?",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Joshua Carroll entered the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/technology\">tech world\u003c/a> as a “bright-eyed and bushy-tailed” product manager at Microsoft. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was really excited about the mission of the company,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now in his late 30s and working as a product manager at Google, the self-identified cat dad said that he kept politics out of the office until 2023 — when Israel launched a full-scale military campaign in Gaza, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11971467/protesting-project-nimbus-what-rights-do-silicon-valley-employees-have\">using Google technology\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were “things in the industry I wasn’t totally stoked about, but I hadn’t really been super engaged around them as a worker,” Carroll said. After seeing “what Google and Amazon were doing to support the genocide in Gaza,” Carroll said he started trying “to improve the industry and how my work was being used.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1374\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079890\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-1536x1066.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign is posted at Google headquarters in Mountain View, California, on Feb. 4, 2026. (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He decided to join the Tech Workers Coalition, a group fighting for “better working conditions and a real say in how the technology [they] build impacts our communities and the world,” according to their \u003ca href=\"https://techworkerscoalition.org/bay-area/\">website\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since joining, Carroll said the Bay Area chapter has focused on building “worker consciousness” among tech workers and connecting them to advocacy campaigns around issues that the industry has an impact on — from Flock cameras to artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, high compensation, strong upward mobility and a culture of individual achievement have helped keep Silicon Valley’s white-collar workers largely detached from organized labor. But as artificial intelligence rapidly changes the nature of technical work, organizers say more tech employees are reconsidering their position in the industry, and following in the footsteps of labor organizers past.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI anxieties \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are wondering how they’ll spend their IPO windfalls, others are experiencing all too familiar AI anxieties: Will AI change our jobs? Will it eliminate them? Will it eliminate us all?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last month, employees at frontier AI labs Anthropic and Google drew widespread attention to AI safety issues by \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/two-ai-researchers-leave-anthropic-google-safety-concerns-rcna597086\">quitting\u003c/a> over concerns that their companies cannot control the technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carroll said he does not discount AI’s existential risk, but he remains more concerned by its “immediate and material harms in terms of labor displacement and social impacts and environmental impacts and surveillance and weaponization — all the things that are happening now.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks at Google’s San Francisco office about “Creating an AI-Ready Workforce,” a new joint effort with some of the world’s leading tech companies to help better prepare California’s students and workers for the next generation of technology, in San Francisco on Aug. 7, 2025. (Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jeremy Bernick, an Arizona-based attorney and member of the Communications Workers of America, a national union that represents workers at Alphabet and Wikimedia, said they are worried about senior management pushing AI onto junior employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A lot of us are thinking, no, it actually degrades or slows down our work processes,” Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bernick said there’s some fear that companies will use “token tracking,” a method to see how often each employee uses AI, and other forms of surveillance as part of performance reviews.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As these concerns grew, Bernick said that CWA formed an AI advisory committee and has released an AI bargaining toolkit for workers. In September, white-collar workers at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092335/staff-of-san-francisco-based-wikipedia-demand-union-recognition-raise-concerns-over-ai\">Wikimedia\u003c/a> voted to form a union, and \u003ca href=\"https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/blizzard-entertainment-workers-ratify-historic-video-game-contracts-cwa\">Blizzard Entertainment\u003c/a> ratified their union contract — both drives have mentioned AI usage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While many engineers have adopted AI into their workflow, others said that AI makes their previously creative and intellectually stimulating job more rote and less impactful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1390\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102878\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-1536x1068.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Joshua Carroll, a tech worker at Google and core organizer of Tech Workers Coalition, poses for a portrait at his home in Oakland on Oct. 4, 2026. (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We can see how our control and influence over actual product decisions — and the impact on society — is likely to degrade and is degrading,” Carroll said. He described a shift from making decisions to “shoveling data” — where workers are asked to put information into AI systems and let the machines do the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This change in the nature of their work and the rapid advancement of AI models has coincided with massive \u003ca href=\"https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/what-really-happening-jobs-separating-ai-hype-reality\">restructuring\u003c/a> in the industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Already, software companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">citing\u003c/a> a desire to shift spending towards “AI-focused employees and data center construction.” While more employees were laid off in 2023 than 2026, this year saw a rise in layoffs directly attributed to AI, according to \u003ca href=\"https://layoffs.fyi/\">layoffs.fyi\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A 2026 AI Index report from \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">Stanford University\u003c/a> found that one-third of organizations surveyed anticipate there will be more job reductions in the near future and that employment for entry-level software developers fell 20% from 2024. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think this is the first era in recent memory outside of maybe the ‘70s and ‘80s where there’s been a real, legitimate fear of actual labor displacement,” Bernick said. “Unions are a really good way to combat that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Political problems\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are organizing to protect their jobs, others are turning to collective bargaining as a way to challenge their company’s political decisions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alex Samburov, a member of the Alphabet Workers Union, has been organizing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.googlers-against-ice.com/\">Googlers Against ICE Campaign,\u003c/a> which opposes their employer’s partnerships with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The campaign specifically calls out the use of AI by federal agencies for “workforce enablement” and “improving operational efficiency,” among other tools, according to the petition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Samburov, a Russian immigrant, said he joined Google in 2019 right after the tech giant canceled a contract with the Department of Defense for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11668872/google-employees-quit-in-protest-over-military-artificial-intelligence-program\">Project Maven\u003c/a> — a U.S. program that uses AI to help drones distinguish between people and objects — following pressure from employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103634\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Alex Samburov, a software engineer at Google, stands at the Google offices in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That’s the company culture that attracted me to Google,” Samburov said. “Every day I meet more people who care about these issues, meet people who are willing to risk their employment. Some of them are willing to take a risk despite being immigrants like myself.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Samburov said that workers within Google have the most leverage to change the company. He said that creates an obligation to check how the company uses his labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have seen Google demonstrate that the organization doesn’t care about much else. Users don’t really have leverage in this relationship and American voters don’t seem to have much leverage either,” Samburov said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The campaign reached 1,700 signatures last month and has since been formally endorsed by the union. Google declined to make anyone available to comment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But organizing around these political and ethical questions has become more difficult as layoffs make workers feel more vulnerable, Carroll said. Unions can be helpful here, he said, because they can provide the structure, protections and democratic processes to help workers advocate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The workers are the ones building and maintaining the internet, AI, social media and everything in-between, Carroll said, but a lot of decisions are being put on them from the top down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we can come together to see a different direction … there’s a lot of power there,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Silicon Valley’s long history of resistance to unions \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The idea of tech workers organizing collectively is still unusual in Silicon Valley. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Alphabet Workers Union, one of the most prominent tech unions, represents \u003ca href=\"https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/faqs\">“over a thousand”\u003c/a> employees out of roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091358/4500-google-employees-demand-job-security-amid-big-tech-layoffs\">190,000\u003c/a> employees and is not yet registered with the National Labor Relations Board. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nationally, just 3.7% of workers in “computer and mathematical occupations” are unionized, compared to 10% of workers across other industries according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat42.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10638229\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-400x225.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1440x810.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1180x664.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-960x540.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees walk around campus on Aug. 10, 2015. (David Paul Morris/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Margaret O’Mara, a historian and author of \u003cem>The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>, said that disparity has deep roots. Silicon Valley companies gave their white-collar workers incentives to negotiate with management directly, rather than at the bargaining table. And at the same time, Silicon Valley companies developed aggressive strategies for keeping their workplaces union-free. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While U.S. union membership \u003ca href=\"https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy\">peaked\u003c/a> around 1950 — with over 30% of the American workforce carrying a union card at the time — O’Mara said that the management in the Valley was “pretty strongly anti-union.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“From Hewlett-Packard forward, there was an idea that if you had a union in your company, that was a sign that management was doing it wrong,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Founded in 1939, Hewlett-Packard pioneered some of the systems that keep tech employees aligned with their management even today, O’Mara said, such as stock options. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While stock options, the ability to buy shares of the company at a reduced price, had long been an option for management, HP opened them up and turned them into “a way to deliver employee benefits that was kind of different from the way a standardized, unionized shop would work,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The relationship between employers and workers was different on the factory floor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>David Bacon, a former engineering technician and union organizer at National Semiconductor, said that the companies were “laboratories for keeping themselves union-free.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They did this by a number of means,” Bacon said, “for instance, ensuring that the production workforce in the semiconductor plants [was] made up of immigrants and a huge majority of women,” who managers could intimidate because they were more “vulnerable.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bacon also said he and other union organizers were fired and blacklisted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The result was a workplace culture in which unionization could seem unnecessary, or even antithetical to the work, for some and dangerous for others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carroll said that talking to his coworkers about unionizing today often involves a lot of education. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He often has to explain to them, he said, that “it would be illegal for the companies to retaliate or discriminate against us for [organizing around working conditions].”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The future of AI workers?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As organizers like Carroll, Bernick and Samburov push for unionization, some experts question whether the current wave of AI and political anxiety will translate into meaningful union drives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lenny Siegel, former mayor of Mountain View and a longtime activist, said that he does not believe AI alone will push tech workers to unionize. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unless the AI bubble pops, Siegel said he is “not expecting people [in Silicon Valley] to have trouble negotiating individually for bread and butter issues.” Without the need to collectively bargain, unionization is unlikely — especially given the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/trump-says-skilled-foreign-workers-take-jobs-away-from-americans-its-not-that-simple-experts-say\">high concentration\u003c/a> of tech employees on H1B visas who risk losing everything if their company decides to retaliate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066914\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence, something for which the tech industry has been lobbying. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While Siegel does not believe he’ll see software engineers on the picket line anytime soon, he agrees that organizing around political issues will continue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There have always been progressive tech workers in the Valley,” Siegel said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, Siegel belonged to a group called Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, which he described as a “collection of tech professionals who got together and effectively, because of their expertise, had an impact on policy.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group formed in \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/about/history/\">1981\u003c/a> and opposed the use of computing technology for military applications, including the \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/prevsite/publications/newsletters/old/1980s/Fall1986.txt/\">Strategic Computing Initiative,\u003c/a> an early artificial intelligence project funded by the Department of Defense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While political engagement among techies may not be new, Carroll said building power within the workplace helps give workers the security they need to speak out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to feel like our jobs are safe in order to feel comfortable working on and talking about some of these other issues,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Carroll, the effort to build solidarity with his coworkers and colleagues across the industry has been worth it, even if it moves slowly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Labor organizing and trying to directly create power against the people at the top that are making a lot of the decisions is one of the most impactful things that we can be doing,” Carroll said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were “things in the industry I wasn’t totally stoked about, but I hadn’t really been super engaged around them as a worker,” Carroll said. After seeing “what Google and Amazon were doing to support the genocide in Gaza,” Carroll said he started trying “to improve the industry and how my work was being used.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079890\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-1536x1066.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign is posted at Google headquarters in Mountain View, California, on Feb. 4, 2026. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079890\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign is posted at Google headquarters in Mountain View, California, on Feb. 4, 2026. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He decided to join the Tech Workers Coalition, a group fighting for “better working conditions and a real say in how the technology [they] build impacts our communities and the world,” according to their \u003ca href=\"https://techworkerscoalition.org/bay-area/\">website\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He decided to join the Tech Workers Coalition, a group fighting for “better working conditions and a real say in how the technology [they] build impacts our communities and the world,” according to their \u003ca href=\"https://techworkerscoalition.org/bay-area/\">website\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since joining, Carroll said the Bay Area chapter has focused on building “worker consciousness” among tech workers and connecting them to advocacy campaigns around issues that the industry has an impact on — from Flock cameras to artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Since joining, Carroll said the Bay Area chapter has focused on building “worker consciousness” among tech workers and connecting them to advocacy campaigns around issues that the industry has an impact on — from Flock cameras to artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For decades, high compensation, strong upward mobility and a culture of individual achievement have helped keep Silicon Valley’s white-collar workers largely detached from organized labor. But as artificial intelligence rapidly changes the nature of technical work, organizers say more tech employees are reconsidering their position in the industry, and following in the footsteps of labor organizers past.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For decades, high compensation, strong upward mobility and a culture of individual achievement have helped keep Silicon Valley’s white-collar workers largely detached from organized labor. But as artificial intelligence rapidly changes the nature of technical work, organizers say more tech employees are reconsidering their position in the industry, and following in the footsteps of labor organizers past.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "AI anxieties ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI anxieties \u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are wondering how they’ll spend their IPO windfalls, others are experiencing all too familiar AI anxieties: Will AI change our jobs? Will it eliminate them? Will it eliminate us all?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are wondering how they’ll spend their IPO windfalls, others are experiencing all too familiar AI anxieties: Will AI change our jobs? Will it eliminate them? Will it eliminate us all?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Last month, employees at frontier AI labs Anthropic and Google drew widespread attention to AI safety issues by \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/two-ai-researchers-leave-anthropic-google-safety-concerns-rcna597086\">quitting\u003c/a> over concerns that their companies cannot control the technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Last month, employees at frontier AI labs Anthropic and Google drew widespread attention to AI safety issues by \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/two-ai-researchers-leave-anthropic-google-safety-concerns-rcna597086\">quitting\u003c/a> over concerns that their companies cannot control the technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Carroll said he does not discount AI’s existential risk, but he remains more concerned by its “immediate and material harms in terms of labor displacement and social impacts and environmental impacts and surveillance and weaponization — all the things that are happening now.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Carroll said he does not discount AI’s existential risk, but he remains more concerned by its “immediate and material harms in terms of labor displacement and social impacts and environmental impacts and surveillance and weaponization — all the things that are happening now.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks at Google’s San Francisco office about “Creating an AI-Ready Workforce,” a new joint effort with some of the world’s leading tech companies to help better prepare California’s students and workers for the next generation of technology, in San Francisco on Aug. 7, 2025.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102341\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks at Google’s San Francisco office about “Creating an AI-Ready Workforce,” a new joint effort with some of the world’s leading tech companies to help better prepare California’s students and workers for the next generation of technology, in San Francisco on Aug. 7, 2025.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jeremy Bernick, an Arizona-based attorney and member of the Communications Workers of America, a national union that represents workers at Alphabet and Wikimedia, said they are worried about senior management pushing AI onto junior employees. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jeremy Bernick, an Arizona-based attorney and member of the Communications Workers of America, a national union that represents workers at Alphabet and Wikimedia, said they are worried about senior management pushing AI onto junior employees. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“A lot of us are thinking, no, it actually degrades or slows down our work processes,” Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“A lot of us are thinking, no, it actually degrades or slows down our work processes,” Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bernick said there’s some fear that companies will use “token tracking,” a method to see how often each employee uses AI, and other forms of surveillance as part of performance reviews.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bernick said there’s some fear that companies will use “token tracking,” a method to see how often each employee uses AI, and other forms of surveillance as part of performance reviews.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As these concerns grew, Bernick said that CWA formed an AI advisory committee and has released an AI bargaining toolkit for workers. In September, white-collar workers at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092335/staff-of-san-francisco-based-wikipedia-demand-union-recognition-raise-concerns-over-ai\">Wikimedia\u003c/a> voted to form a union, and \u003ca href=\"https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/blizzard-entertainment-workers-ratify-historic-video-game-contracts-cwa\">Blizzard Entertainment\u003c/a> ratified their union contract — both drives have mentioned AI usage. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As these concerns grew, Bernick said that CWA formed an AI advisory committee and has released an AI bargaining toolkit for workers. In September, white-collar workers at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092335/staff-of-san-francisco-based-wikipedia-demand-union-recognition-raise-concerns-over-ai\">Wikimedia\u003c/a> voted to form a union, and \u003ca href=\"https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/blizzard-entertainment-workers-ratify-historic-video-game-contracts-cwa\">Blizzard Entertainment\u003c/a> ratified their union contract — both drives have mentioned AI usage. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While many engineers have adopted AI into their workflow, others said that AI makes their previously creative and intellectually stimulating job more rote and less impactful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While many engineers have adopted AI into their workflow, others said that AI makes their previously creative and intellectually stimulating job more rote and less impactful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102878\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-1536x1068.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Joshua Carroll, a tech worker at Google and core organizer of Tech Workers Coalition, poses for a portrait at his home in Oakland on Oct. 4, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102878\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Joshua Carroll, a tech worker at Google and core organizer of Tech Workers Coalition, poses for a portrait at his home in Oakland on Oct. 4, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We can see how our control and influence over actual product decisions — and the impact on society — is likely to degrade and is degrading,” Carroll said. He described a shift from making decisions to “shoveling data” — where workers are asked to put information into AI systems and let the machines do the rest. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We can see how our control and influence over actual product decisions — and the impact on society — is likely to degrade and is degrading,” Carroll said. He described a shift from making decisions to “shoveling data” — where workers are asked to put information into AI systems and let the machines do the rest. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This change in the nature of their work and the rapid advancement of AI models has coincided with massive \u003ca href=\"https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/what-really-happening-jobs-separating-ai-hype-reality\">restructuring\u003c/a> in the industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This change in the nature of their work and the rapid advancement of AI models has coincided with massive \u003ca href=\"https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/what-really-happening-jobs-separating-ai-hype-reality\">restructuring\u003c/a> in the industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Already, software companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">citing\u003c/a> a desire to shift spending towards “AI-focused employees and data center construction.” While more employees were laid off in 2023 than 2026, this year saw a rise in layoffs directly attributed to AI, according to \u003ca href=\"https://layoffs.fyi/\">layoffs.fyi\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Already, software companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">citing\u003c/a> a desire to shift spending towards “AI-focused employees and data center construction.” While more employees were laid off in 2023 than 2026, this year saw a rise in layoffs directly attributed to AI, according to \u003ca href=\"https://layoffs.fyi/\">layoffs.fyi\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A 2026 AI Index report from \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">Stanford University\u003c/a> found that one-third of organizations surveyed anticipate there will be more job reductions in the near future and that employment for entry-level software developers fell 20% from 2024. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A 2026 AI Index report from \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">Stanford University\u003c/a> found that one-third of organizations surveyed anticipate there will be more job reductions in the near future and that employment for entry-level software developers fell 20% from 2024. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think this is the first era in recent memory outside of maybe the ‘70s and ‘80s where there’s been a real, legitimate fear of actual labor displacement,” Bernick said. “Unions are a really good way to combat that.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I think this is the first era in recent memory outside of maybe the ‘70s and ‘80s where there’s been a real, legitimate fear of actual labor displacement,” Bernick said. “Unions are a really good way to combat that.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Political problems ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Political problems\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Political problems\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are organizing to protect their jobs, others are turning to collective bargaining as a way to challenge their company’s political decisions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are organizing to protect their jobs, others are turning to collective bargaining as a way to challenge their company’s political decisions. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Alex Samburov, a member of the Alphabet Workers Union, has been organizing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.googlers-against-ice.com/\">Googlers Against ICE Campaign,\u003c/a> which opposes their employer’s partnerships with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The campaign specifically calls out the use of AI by federal agencies for “workforce enablement” and “improving operational efficiency,” among other tools, according to the petition. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Alex Samburov, a member of the Alphabet Workers Union, has been organizing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.googlers-against-ice.com/\">Googlers Against ICE Campaign,\u003c/a> which opposes their employer’s partnerships with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The campaign specifically calls out the use of AI by federal agencies for “workforce enablement” and “improving operational efficiency,” among other tools, according to the petition. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Samburov, a Russian immigrant, said he joined Google in 2019 right after the tech giant canceled a contract with the Department of Defense for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11668872/google-employees-quit-in-protest-over-military-artificial-intelligence-program\">Project Maven\u003c/a> — a U.S. program that uses AI to help drones distinguish between people and objects — following pressure from employees. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Samburov, a Russian immigrant, said he joined Google in 2019 right after the tech giant canceled a contract with the Department of Defense for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11668872/google-employees-quit-in-protest-over-military-artificial-intelligence-program\">Project Maven\u003c/a> — a U.S. program that uses AI to help drones distinguish between people and objects — following pressure from employees. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103634\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Alex Samburov, a software engineer at Google, stands at the Google offices in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“That’s the company culture that attracted me to Google,” Samburov said. “Every day I meet more people who care about these issues, meet people who are willing to risk their employment. Some of them are willing to take a risk despite being immigrants like myself.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Samburov said that workers within Google have the most leverage to change the company. He said that creates an obligation to check how the company uses his labor. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We have seen Google demonstrate that the organization doesn’t care about much else. Users don’t really have leverage in this relationship and American voters don’t seem to have much leverage either,” Samburov said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The campaign reached 1,700 signatures last month and has since been formally endorsed by the union. Google declined to make anyone available to comment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But organizing around these political and ethical questions has become more difficult as layoffs make workers feel more vulnerable, Carroll said. Unions can be helpful here, he said, because they can provide the structure, protections and democratic processes to help workers advocate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The workers are the ones building and maintaining the internet, AI, social media and everything in-between, Carroll said, but a lot of decisions are being put on them from the top down. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If we can come together to see a different direction … there’s a lot of power there,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"text": "Silicon Valley’s long history of resistance to unions ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The idea of tech workers organizing collectively is still unusual in Silicon Valley. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Alphabet Workers Union, one of the most prominent tech unions, represents \u003ca href=\"https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/faqs\">“over a thousand”\u003c/a> employees out of roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091358/4500-google-employees-demand-job-security-amid-big-tech-layoffs\">190,000\u003c/a> employees and is not yet registered with the National Labor Relations Board. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Alphabet Workers Union, one of the most prominent tech unions, represents \u003ca href=\"https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/faqs\">“over a thousand”\u003c/a> employees out of roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091358/4500-google-employees-demand-job-security-amid-big-tech-layoffs\">190,000\u003c/a> employees and is not yet registered with the National Labor Relations Board. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nationally, just 3.7% of workers in “computer and mathematical occupations” are unionized, compared to 10% of workers across other industries according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat42.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Nationally, just 3.7% of workers in “computer and mathematical occupations” are unionized, compared to 10% of workers across other industries according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat42.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10638229\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-400x225.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1440x810.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1180x664.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-960x540.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees walk around campus on Aug. 10, 2015.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (David Paul Morris/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10638229\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees walk around campus on Aug. 10, 2015.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (David Paul Morris/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Margaret O’Mara, a historian and author of \u003cem>The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>, said that disparity has deep roots. Silicon Valley companies gave their white-collar workers incentives to negotiate with management directly, rather than at the bargaining table. And at the same time, Silicon Valley companies developed aggressive strategies for keeping their workplaces union-free. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Margaret O’Mara, a historian and author of \u003cem>The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>, said that disparity has deep roots. Silicon Valley companies gave their white-collar workers incentives to negotiate with management directly, rather than at the bargaining table. And at the same time, Silicon Valley companies developed aggressive strategies for keeping their workplaces union-free. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While U.S. union membership \u003ca href=\"https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy\">peaked\u003c/a> around 1950 — with over 30% of the American workforce carrying a union card at the time — O’Mara said that the management in the Valley was “pretty strongly anti-union.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While U.S. union membership \u003ca href=\"https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy\">peaked\u003c/a> around 1950 — with over 30% of the American workforce carrying a union card at the time — O’Mara said that the management in the Valley was “pretty strongly anti-union.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“From Hewlett-Packard forward, there was an idea that if you had a union in your company, that was a sign that management was doing it wrong,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Founded in 1939, Hewlett-Packard pioneered some of the systems that keep tech employees aligned with their management even today, O’Mara said, such as stock options. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Founded in 1939, Hewlett-Packard pioneered some of the systems that keep tech employees aligned with their management even today, O’Mara said, such as stock options. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While stock options, the ability to buy shares of the company at a reduced price, had long been an option for management, HP opened them up and turned them into “a way to deliver employee benefits that was kind of different from the way a standardized, unionized shop would work,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The relationship between employers and workers was different on the factory floor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>David Bacon, a former engineering technician and union organizer at National Semiconductor, said that the companies were “laboratories for keeping themselves union-free.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>David Bacon, a former engineering technician and union organizer at National Semiconductor, said that the companies were “laboratories for keeping themselves union-free.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They did this by a number of means,” Bacon said, “for instance, ensuring that the production workforce in the semiconductor plants [was] made up of immigrants and a huge majority of women,” who managers could intimidate because they were more “vulnerable.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They did this by a number of means,” Bacon said, “for instance, ensuring that the production workforce in the semiconductor plants [was] made up of immigrants and a huge majority of women,” who managers could intimidate because they were more “vulnerable.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bacon also said he and other union organizers were fired and blacklisted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The result was a workplace culture in which unionization could seem unnecessary, or even antithetical to the work, for some and dangerous for others. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The result was a workplace culture in which unionization could seem unnecessary, or even antithetical to the work, for some and dangerous for others. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Carroll said that talking to his coworkers about unionizing today often involves a lot of education. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He often has to explain to them, he said, that “it would be illegal for the companies to retaliate or discriminate against us for [organizing around working conditions].”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He often has to explain to them, he said, that “it would be illegal for the companies to retaliate or discriminate against us for [organizing around working conditions].”\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "The future of AI workers?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The future of AI workers?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As organizers like Carroll, Bernick and Samburov push for unionization, some experts question whether the current wave of AI and political anxiety will translate into meaningful union drives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lenny Siegel, former mayor of Mountain View and a longtime activist, said that he does not believe AI alone will push tech workers to unionize. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Unless the AI bubble pops, Siegel said he is “not expecting people [in Silicon Valley] to have trouble negotiating individually for bread and butter issues.” Without the need to collectively bargain, unionization is unlikely — especially given the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/trump-says-skilled-foreign-workers-take-jobs-away-from-americans-its-not-that-simple-experts-say\">high concentration\u003c/a> of tech employees on H1B visas who risk losing everything if their company decides to retaliate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066914\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence, something for which the tech industry has been lobbying. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While Siegel does not believe he’ll see software engineers on the picket line anytime soon, he agrees that organizing around political issues will continue.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There have always been progressive tech workers in the Valley,” Siegel said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, Siegel belonged to a group called Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, which he described as a “collection of tech professionals who got together and effectively, because of their expertise, had an impact on policy.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The group formed in \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/about/history/\">1981\u003c/a> and opposed the use of computing technology for military applications, including the \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/prevsite/publications/newsletters/old/1980s/Fall1986.txt/\">Strategic Computing Initiative,\u003c/a> an early artificial intelligence project funded by the Department of Defense. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While political engagement among techies may not be new, Carroll said building power within the workplace helps give workers the security they need to speak out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We need to feel like our jobs are safe in order to feel comfortable working on and talking about some of these other issues,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For Carroll, the effort to build solidarity with his coworkers and colleagues across the industry has been worth it, even if it moves slowly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Labor organizing and trying to directly create power against the people at the top that are making a lot of the decisions is one of the most impactful things that we can be doing,” Carroll said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Labor organizing and trying to directly create power against the people at the top that are making a lot of the decisions is one of the most impactful things that we can be doing,” Carroll said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Silicon Valley’s white-collar workers have been largely detached from organized labor. Artificial intelligence and ICE are giving employees new reasons to unionize.",
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"title": "Tech Workers Have Long Resisted Unions. Will AI and Politics Change the Equation? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Joshua Carroll entered the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/technology\">tech world\u003c/a> as a “bright-eyed and bushy-tailed” product manager at Microsoft. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was really excited about the mission of the company,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now in his late 30s and working as a product manager at Google, the self-identified cat dad said that he kept politics out of the office until 2023 — when Israel launched a full-scale military campaign in Gaza, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11971467/protesting-project-nimbus-what-rights-do-silicon-valley-employees-have\">using Google technology\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were “things in the industry I wasn’t totally stoked about, but I hadn’t really been super engaged around them as a worker,” Carroll said. After seeing “what Google and Amazon were doing to support the genocide in Gaza,” Carroll said he started trying “to improve the industry and how my work was being used.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1374\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079890\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-1536x1066.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign is posted at Google headquarters in Mountain View, California, on Feb. 4, 2026. (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He decided to join the Tech Workers Coalition, a group fighting for “better working conditions and a real say in how the technology [they] build impacts our communities and the world,” according to their \u003ca href=\"https://techworkerscoalition.org/bay-area/\">website\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since joining, Carroll said the Bay Area chapter has focused on building “worker consciousness” among tech workers and connecting them to advocacy campaigns around issues that the industry has an impact on — from Flock cameras to artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, high compensation, strong upward mobility and a culture of individual achievement have helped keep Silicon Valley’s white-collar workers largely detached from organized labor. But as artificial intelligence rapidly changes the nature of technical work, organizers say more tech employees are reconsidering their position in the industry, and following in the footsteps of labor organizers past.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI anxieties \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are wondering how they’ll spend their IPO windfalls, others are experiencing all too familiar AI anxieties: Will AI change our jobs? Will it eliminate them? Will it eliminate us all?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last month, employees at frontier AI labs Anthropic and Google drew widespread attention to AI safety issues by \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/two-ai-researchers-leave-anthropic-google-safety-concerns-rcna597086\">quitting\u003c/a> over concerns that their companies cannot control the technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carroll said he does not discount AI’s existential risk, but he remains more concerned by its “immediate and material harms in terms of labor displacement and social impacts and environmental impacts and surveillance and weaponization — all the things that are happening now.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks at Google’s San Francisco office about “Creating an AI-Ready Workforce,” a new joint effort with some of the world’s leading tech companies to help better prepare California’s students and workers for the next generation of technology, in San Francisco on Aug. 7, 2025. (Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jeremy Bernick, an Arizona-based attorney and member of the Communications Workers of America, a national union that represents workers at Alphabet and Wikimedia, said they are worried about senior management pushing AI onto junior employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A lot of us are thinking, no, it actually degrades or slows down our work processes,” Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bernick said there’s some fear that companies will use “token tracking,” a method to see how often each employee uses AI, and other forms of surveillance as part of performance reviews.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As these concerns grew, Bernick said that CWA formed an AI advisory committee and has released an AI bargaining toolkit for workers. In September, white-collar workers at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092335/staff-of-san-francisco-based-wikipedia-demand-union-recognition-raise-concerns-over-ai\">Wikimedia\u003c/a> voted to form a union, and \u003ca href=\"https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/blizzard-entertainment-workers-ratify-historic-video-game-contracts-cwa\">Blizzard Entertainment\u003c/a> ratified their union contract — both drives have mentioned AI usage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While many engineers have adopted AI into their workflow, others said that AI makes their previously creative and intellectually stimulating job more rote and less impactful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1390\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102878\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-1536x1068.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Joshua Carroll, a tech worker at Google and core organizer of Tech Workers Coalition, poses for a portrait at his home in Oakland on Oct. 4, 2026. (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We can see how our control and influence over actual product decisions — and the impact on society — is likely to degrade and is degrading,” Carroll said. He described a shift from making decisions to “shoveling data” — where workers are asked to put information into AI systems and let the machines do the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This change in the nature of their work and the rapid advancement of AI models has coincided with massive \u003ca href=\"https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/what-really-happening-jobs-separating-ai-hype-reality\">restructuring\u003c/a> in the industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Already, software companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">citing\u003c/a> a desire to shift spending towards “AI-focused employees and data center construction.” While more employees were laid off in 2023 than 2026, this year saw a rise in layoffs directly attributed to AI, according to \u003ca href=\"https://layoffs.fyi/\">layoffs.fyi\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A 2026 AI Index report from \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">Stanford University\u003c/a> found that one-third of organizations surveyed anticipate there will be more job reductions in the near future and that employment for entry-level software developers fell 20% from 2024. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think this is the first era in recent memory outside of maybe the ‘70s and ‘80s where there’s been a real, legitimate fear of actual labor displacement,” Bernick said. “Unions are a really good way to combat that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Political problems\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are organizing to protect their jobs, others are turning to collective bargaining as a way to challenge their company’s political decisions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alex Samburov, a member of the Alphabet Workers Union, has been organizing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.googlers-against-ice.com/\">Googlers Against ICE Campaign,\u003c/a> which opposes their employer’s partnerships with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The campaign specifically calls out the use of AI by federal agencies for “workforce enablement” and “improving operational efficiency,” among other tools, according to the petition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Samburov, a Russian immigrant, said he joined Google in 2019 right after the tech giant canceled a contract with the Department of Defense for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11668872/google-employees-quit-in-protest-over-military-artificial-intelligence-program\">Project Maven\u003c/a> — a U.S. program that uses AI to help drones distinguish between people and objects — following pressure from employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103634\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Alex Samburov, a software engineer at Google, stands at the Google offices in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That’s the company culture that attracted me to Google,” Samburov said. “Every day I meet more people who care about these issues, meet people who are willing to risk their employment. Some of them are willing to take a risk despite being immigrants like myself.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Samburov said that workers within Google have the most leverage to change the company. He said that creates an obligation to check how the company uses his labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have seen Google demonstrate that the organization doesn’t care about much else. Users don’t really have leverage in this relationship and American voters don’t seem to have much leverage either,” Samburov said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The campaign reached 1,700 signatures last month and has since been formally endorsed by the union. Google declined to make anyone available to comment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But organizing around these political and ethical questions has become more difficult as layoffs make workers feel more vulnerable, Carroll said. Unions can be helpful here, he said, because they can provide the structure, protections and democratic processes to help workers advocate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The workers are the ones building and maintaining the internet, AI, social media and everything in-between, Carroll said, but a lot of decisions are being put on them from the top down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we can come together to see a different direction … there’s a lot of power there,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Silicon Valley’s long history of resistance to unions \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The idea of tech workers organizing collectively is still unusual in Silicon Valley. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Alphabet Workers Union, one of the most prominent tech unions, represents \u003ca href=\"https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/faqs\">“over a thousand”\u003c/a> employees out of roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091358/4500-google-employees-demand-job-security-amid-big-tech-layoffs\">190,000\u003c/a> employees and is not yet registered with the National Labor Relations Board. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nationally, just 3.7% of workers in “computer and mathematical occupations” are unionized, compared to 10% of workers across other industries according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat42.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10638229\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-400x225.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1440x810.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1180x664.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-960x540.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees walk around campus on Aug. 10, 2015. (David Paul Morris/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Margaret O’Mara, a historian and author of \u003cem>The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>, said that disparity has deep roots. Silicon Valley companies gave their white-collar workers incentives to negotiate with management directly, rather than at the bargaining table. And at the same time, Silicon Valley companies developed aggressive strategies for keeping their workplaces union-free. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While U.S. union membership \u003ca href=\"https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy\">peaked\u003c/a> around 1950 — with over 30% of the American workforce carrying a union card at the time — O’Mara said that the management in the Valley was “pretty strongly anti-union.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“From Hewlett-Packard forward, there was an idea that if you had a union in your company, that was a sign that management was doing it wrong,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Founded in 1939, Hewlett-Packard pioneered some of the systems that keep tech employees aligned with their management even today, O’Mara said, such as stock options. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While stock options, the ability to buy shares of the company at a reduced price, had long been an option for management, HP opened them up and turned them into “a way to deliver employee benefits that was kind of different from the way a standardized, unionized shop would work,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The relationship between employers and workers was different on the factory floor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>David Bacon, a former engineering technician and union organizer at National Semiconductor, said that the companies were “laboratories for keeping themselves union-free.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They did this by a number of means,” Bacon said, “for instance, ensuring that the production workforce in the semiconductor plants [was] made up of immigrants and a huge majority of women,” who managers could intimidate because they were more “vulnerable.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bacon also said he and other union organizers were fired and blacklisted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The result was a workplace culture in which unionization could seem unnecessary, or even antithetical to the work, for some and dangerous for others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carroll said that talking to his coworkers about unionizing today often involves a lot of education. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He often has to explain to them, he said, that “it would be illegal for the companies to retaliate or discriminate against us for [organizing around working conditions].”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The future of AI workers?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As organizers like Carroll, Bernick and Samburov push for unionization, some experts question whether the current wave of AI and political anxiety will translate into meaningful union drives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lenny Siegel, former mayor of Mountain View and a longtime activist, said that he does not believe AI alone will push tech workers to unionize. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unless the AI bubble pops, Siegel said he is “not expecting people [in Silicon Valley] to have trouble negotiating individually for bread and butter issues.” Without the need to collectively bargain, unionization is unlikely — especially given the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/trump-says-skilled-foreign-workers-take-jobs-away-from-americans-its-not-that-simple-experts-say\">high concentration\u003c/a> of tech employees on H1B visas who risk losing everything if their company decides to retaliate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066914\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence, something for which the tech industry has been lobbying. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While Siegel does not believe he’ll see software engineers on the picket line anytime soon, he agrees that organizing around political issues will continue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There have always been progressive tech workers in the Valley,” Siegel said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, Siegel belonged to a group called Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, which he described as a “collection of tech professionals who got together and effectively, because of their expertise, had an impact on policy.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group formed in \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/about/history/\">1981\u003c/a> and opposed the use of computing technology for military applications, including the \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/prevsite/publications/newsletters/old/1980s/Fall1986.txt/\">Strategic Computing Initiative,\u003c/a> an early artificial intelligence project funded by the Department of Defense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While political engagement among techies may not be new, Carroll said building power within the workplace helps give workers the security they need to speak out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to feel like our jobs are safe in order to feel comfortable working on and talking about some of these other issues,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Carroll, the effort to build solidarity with his coworkers and colleagues across the industry has been worth it, even if it moves slowly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Labor organizing and trying to directly create power against the people at the top that are making a lot of the decisions is one of the most impactful things that we can be doing,” Carroll said.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Experts Urge Federal Lawmakers to Regulate AI. Will Anyone Heed Their Alarm?",
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"headTitle": "Experts Urge Federal Lawmakers to Regulate AI. Will Anyone Heed Their Alarm? | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>AI researchers and safety advocates warned a group of U.S. senators on Wednesday that Silicon Valley developers are racing to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101819/sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask\">build and release\u003c/a> systems they don’t fully understand or control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Senate subcommittee \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">hearing\u003c/a>, titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks,” focused on recent events where AI agents demonstrated a shocking level of agency.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Every day you turn on the television, it seems like AI is doing something else bad,” said subcommittee chair Sen. Josh Hawley, R-Missouri, introducing the hearing. “Setting up \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101186/its-not-illegal-for-california-police-to-misuse-flock-data-san-jose-leaders-want-to-change-that\">surveillance camera networks\u003c/a> nationwide, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915506/how-data-center-backlash-is-reshaping-politics\">data centers\u003c/a> in all of our states, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973657/ai-software-vulnerable-to-attacks-by-both-professional-and-amateur-hackers\">hacking, hacking, hacking\u003c/a>. The reports of cyberattacks just continue to metastasize.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">Hugging Face incident\u003c/a> over the summer, when hundreds of autonomous AI agents running inside an isolated OpenAI testing environment broke out of their sandbox and hacked into another company, loomed large over the hearing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We train agents in ways that we do not understand well, ways that can teach unintended goals,” \u003ca href=\"https://metr.org/blog/2026-09-30-chris-painter-senate-testimony/\">testified\u003c/a> Chris Painter, president of METR, a Berkeley-based research nonprofit that investigated the incident inside OpenAI. “When we make those agents more intelligent, unintended goals can have dramatic real-world consequences.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102330\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Model Evaluation and Threat Research (METR) President Chris Painter speaks during a Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee hearing in Dirksen Senate Office Building on Sept. 30, 2026, in Washington, D.C. AI experts and former industry members spoke in front of the Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee as some have called for a slowdown in AI development amid rising safety concerns. (Finn Gomez/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Painter noted that his team was able to investigate only because OpenAI agreed to it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Companies have no obligation to bring us in,” he said, adding, “There isn’t any requirement that companies disclose things that they’re seeing inside of their AI labs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Daniel Kokotajlo, a former OpenAI researcher who now leads the Berkeley-based AI Futures Project, was blunter. He told the committee he left OpenAI partly because he lost confidence the company would behave responsibly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we vastly improve our practices and reform the way that we do things, including improving our cybersecurity, we might be able to maintain control of current systems — like today’s AIs,” Kokotajlo said, before adding that “the AIs are getting very powerful very quickly, and we are not currently on track to keep up as they dramatically improve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of the Republican members of the subcommittee expressed concerns that putting the brakes on AI development in the U.S. might allow Chinese AI developers to leapfrog them in the race to build ever more sophisticated models. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I do think that the Communist Party of China is our adversary and that we are in a competition with them,” Kokotajlo said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if companies keep handing their AIs more responsibility, including monitoring each other and doing safety research, he warned, “then we will have a new adversary that’s even \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025504/why-openai-says-chinas-deepseek-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be\">more powerful than China\u003c/a>, and that would be the AIs themselves. “We don’t need to slow down everything,” he added, “but in particular, we need to slow down this mad scramble towards recursively self-improving AIs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/09/eff-lawmakers-ground-ai-cybersecurity-rules-best-practices\">urged\u003c/a> lawmakers this month to require sandboxing and monitoring for risky AI testing, as well as independent, public investigations of serious security incidents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“As with any technology regulation, those regulations targeting cybersecurity practices at AI labs must be careful, precise, and practical,” EFF’s Director of Federal Affairs India McKinney wrote KQED. “Also, any proposal must be flexible enough to evolve with changing technology. Tying any new mandates to evidence-backed security protocols also protects the public without impeding future AI development.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The hearing came one day after President Donald Trump and executives from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Nvidia, Meta and SpaceXAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-announces-accord-signed-by-top-ai-companies-to-self-police-development\">signed\u003c/a> a voluntary, nonbinding accord on AI safety. The companies pledged to put “robust” controls on their models, appoint internal teams to oversee those controls, work with independent outside auditors and meet regularly to set industry safety standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Wednesday’s hearing, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Connecticut, dismissed the pledge as “totally secret.” If the companies’ own auditors find violations, he said, “there’s no requirement that it be disclosed to the public.” He then asked the panel whether anyone thought “a completely voluntary system with only ‘moral responsibility’ is going to be enough to deal with the dangers.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092368\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Hugging Face logo is seen displayed on a mobile phone screen with the AI revolution symbol in the background. (Idrees Abbas/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The witnesses shook their heads.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hawley pressed for making AI companies legally liable for harm their agents cause, possibly by updating the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you break it, you pay for it,” he said. “If you cause damage, you clean it up.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hawley and Blumenthal, longtime advocates for legislation to bring Silicon Valley companies to heel, have proposed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/2938/text\">Artificial Intelligence Risk Evaluation Act\u003c/a>, which would have a government agency test AI systems against a safety standard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the House, two California members introduced competing bills on the same day in July. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rep. Jay Obernolte, R-Big Bear Lake, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://franklin.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=1923\">FRONTIER Act\u003c/a>, which would require audits, incident reporting and catastrophic risk assessments for the largest AI developers. Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://lieu.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/reps-lieu-and-moran-introduce-bill-require-kill-switch-ai-systems-can\">AI Kill Switch Act\u003c/a>, which would require developers of the most powerful AI systems to be able to shut them down, and would let the Homeland Security secretary order a shutdown. Both bills have cosponsors from both parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the hearing, Hawley was pessimistic about lawmakers writing detailed rules. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I don’t have any confidence, zero, less than zero, in Congress’s ability to keep up with the technology, let alone anticipate it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Daniel Kokotajlo, a former OpenAI researcher who now leads the Berkeley-based AI Futures Project, was blunter. He told the committee he left OpenAI partly because he lost confidence the company would behave responsibly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If we vastly improve our practices and reform the way that we do things, including improving our cybersecurity, we might be able to maintain control of current systems — like today’s AIs,” Kokotajlo said, before adding that “the AIs are getting very powerful very quickly, and we are not currently on track to keep up as they dramatically improve.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of the Republican members of the subcommittee expressed concerns that putting the brakes on AI development in the U.S. might allow Chinese AI developers to leapfrog them in the race to build ever more sophisticated models. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I do think that the Communist Party of China is our adversary and that we are in a competition with them,” Kokotajlo said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But if companies keep handing their AIs more responsibility, including monitoring each other and doing safety research, he warned, “then we will have a new adversary that’s even \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025504/why-openai-says-chinas-deepseek-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be\">more powerful than China\u003c/a>, and that would be the AIs themselves. “We don’t need to slow down everything,” he added, “but in particular, we need to slow down this mad scramble towards recursively self-improving AIs.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/09/eff-lawmakers-ground-ai-cybersecurity-rules-best-practices\">urged\u003c/a> lawmakers this month to require sandboxing and monitoring for risky AI testing, as well as independent, public investigations of serious security incidents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“As with any technology regulation, those regulations targeting cybersecurity practices at AI labs must be careful, precise, and practical,” EFF’s Director of Federal Affairs India McKinney wrote KQED. “Also, any proposal must be flexible enough to evolve with changing technology. Tying any new mandates to evidence-backed security protocols also protects the public without impeding future AI development.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The hearing came one day after President Donald Trump and executives from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Nvidia, Meta and SpaceXAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-announces-accord-signed-by-top-ai-companies-to-self-police-development\">signed\u003c/a> a voluntary, nonbinding accord on AI safety. The companies pledged to put “robust” controls on their models, appoint internal teams to oversee those controls, work with independent outside auditors and meet regularly to set industry safety standards.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In Wednesday’s hearing, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Connecticut, dismissed the pledge as “totally secret.” If the companies’ own auditors find violations, he said, “there’s no requirement that it be disclosed to the public.” He then asked the panel whether anyone thought “a completely voluntary system with only ‘moral responsibility’ is going to be enough to deal with the dangers.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In Wednesday’s hearing, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Connecticut, dismissed the pledge as “totally secret.” If the companies’ own auditors find violations, he said, “there’s no requirement that it be disclosed to the public.” He then asked the panel whether anyone thought “a completely voluntary system with only ‘moral responsibility’ is going to be enough to deal with the dangers.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hawley pressed for making AI companies legally liable for harm their agents cause, possibly by updating the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If you break it, you pay for it,” he said. “If you cause damage, you clean it up.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hawley and Blumenthal, longtime advocates for legislation to bring Silicon Valley companies to heel, have proposed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/2938/text\">Artificial Intelligence Risk Evaluation Act\u003c/a>, which would have a government agency test AI systems against a safety standard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the House, two California members introduced competing bills on the same day in July. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rep. Jay Obernolte, R-Big Bear Lake, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://franklin.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=1923\">FRONTIER Act\u003c/a>, which would require audits, incident reporting and catastrophic risk assessments for the largest AI developers. Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://lieu.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/reps-lieu-and-moran-introduce-bill-require-kill-switch-ai-systems-can\">AI Kill Switch Act\u003c/a>, which would require developers of the most powerful AI systems to be able to shut them down, and would let the Homeland Security secretary order a shutdown. Both bills have cosponsors from both parties.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Rep. Jay Obernolte, R-Big Bear Lake, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://franklin.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=1923\">FRONTIER Act\u003c/a>, which would require audits, incident reporting and catastrophic risk assessments for the largest AI developers. Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://lieu.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/reps-lieu-and-moran-introduce-bill-require-kill-switch-ai-systems-can\">AI Kill Switch Act\u003c/a>, which would require developers of the most powerful AI systems to be able to shut them down, and would let the Homeland Security secretary order a shutdown. Both bills have cosponsors from both parties.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in the hearing, Hawley was pessimistic about lawmakers writing detailed rules. \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "At a Senate subcommittee hearing, safety advocates decried the lack of federal action to protect Americans from fast-evolving AI-enabled threats.",
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"title": "Experts Urge Federal Lawmakers to Regulate AI. Will Anyone Heed Their Alarm? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>AI researchers and safety advocates warned a group of U.S. senators on Wednesday that Silicon Valley developers are racing to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101819/sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask\">build and release\u003c/a> systems they don’t fully understand or control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Senate subcommittee \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">hearing\u003c/a>, titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks,” focused on recent events where AI agents demonstrated a shocking level of agency.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Every day you turn on the television, it seems like AI is doing something else bad,” said subcommittee chair Sen. Josh Hawley, R-Missouri, introducing the hearing. “Setting up \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101186/its-not-illegal-for-california-police-to-misuse-flock-data-san-jose-leaders-want-to-change-that\">surveillance camera networks\u003c/a> nationwide, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915506/how-data-center-backlash-is-reshaping-politics\">data centers\u003c/a> in all of our states, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973657/ai-software-vulnerable-to-attacks-by-both-professional-and-amateur-hackers\">hacking, hacking, hacking\u003c/a>. The reports of cyberattacks just continue to metastasize.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">Hugging Face incident\u003c/a> over the summer, when hundreds of autonomous AI agents running inside an isolated OpenAI testing environment broke out of their sandbox and hacked into another company, loomed large over the hearing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We train agents in ways that we do not understand well, ways that can teach unintended goals,” \u003ca href=\"https://metr.org/blog/2026-09-30-chris-painter-senate-testimony/\">testified\u003c/a> Chris Painter, president of METR, a Berkeley-based research nonprofit that investigated the incident inside OpenAI. “When we make those agents more intelligent, unintended goals can have dramatic real-world consequences.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102330\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Model Evaluation and Threat Research (METR) President Chris Painter speaks during a Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee hearing in Dirksen Senate Office Building on Sept. 30, 2026, in Washington, D.C. AI experts and former industry members spoke in front of the Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee as some have called for a slowdown in AI development amid rising safety concerns. (Finn Gomez/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Painter noted that his team was able to investigate only because OpenAI agreed to it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Companies have no obligation to bring us in,” he said, adding, “There isn’t any requirement that companies disclose things that they’re seeing inside of their AI labs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Daniel Kokotajlo, a former OpenAI researcher who now leads the Berkeley-based AI Futures Project, was blunter. He told the committee he left OpenAI partly because he lost confidence the company would behave responsibly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we vastly improve our practices and reform the way that we do things, including improving our cybersecurity, we might be able to maintain control of current systems — like today’s AIs,” Kokotajlo said, before adding that “the AIs are getting very powerful very quickly, and we are not currently on track to keep up as they dramatically improve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of the Republican members of the subcommittee expressed concerns that putting the brakes on AI development in the U.S. might allow Chinese AI developers to leapfrog them in the race to build ever more sophisticated models. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I do think that the Communist Party of China is our adversary and that we are in a competition with them,” Kokotajlo said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if companies keep handing their AIs more responsibility, including monitoring each other and doing safety research, he warned, “then we will have a new adversary that’s even \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025504/why-openai-says-chinas-deepseek-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be\">more powerful than China\u003c/a>, and that would be the AIs themselves. “We don’t need to slow down everything,” he added, “but in particular, we need to slow down this mad scramble towards recursively self-improving AIs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/09/eff-lawmakers-ground-ai-cybersecurity-rules-best-practices\">urged\u003c/a> lawmakers this month to require sandboxing and monitoring for risky AI testing, as well as independent, public investigations of serious security incidents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“As with any technology regulation, those regulations targeting cybersecurity practices at AI labs must be careful, precise, and practical,” EFF’s Director of Federal Affairs India McKinney wrote KQED. “Also, any proposal must be flexible enough to evolve with changing technology. Tying any new mandates to evidence-backed security protocols also protects the public without impeding future AI development.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The hearing came one day after President Donald Trump and executives from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Nvidia, Meta and SpaceXAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-announces-accord-signed-by-top-ai-companies-to-self-police-development\">signed\u003c/a> a voluntary, nonbinding accord on AI safety. The companies pledged to put “robust” controls on their models, appoint internal teams to oversee those controls, work with independent outside auditors and meet regularly to set industry safety standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Wednesday’s hearing, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Connecticut, dismissed the pledge as “totally secret.” If the companies’ own auditors find violations, he said, “there’s no requirement that it be disclosed to the public.” He then asked the panel whether anyone thought “a completely voluntary system with only ‘moral responsibility’ is going to be enough to deal with the dangers.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092368\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Hugging Face logo is seen displayed on a mobile phone screen with the AI revolution symbol in the background. (Idrees Abbas/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The witnesses shook their heads.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hawley pressed for making AI companies legally liable for harm their agents cause, possibly by updating the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you break it, you pay for it,” he said. “If you cause damage, you clean it up.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hawley and Blumenthal, longtime advocates for legislation to bring Silicon Valley companies to heel, have proposed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/2938/text\">Artificial Intelligence Risk Evaluation Act\u003c/a>, which would have a government agency test AI systems against a safety standard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the House, two California members introduced competing bills on the same day in July. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rep. Jay Obernolte, R-Big Bear Lake, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://franklin.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=1923\">FRONTIER Act\u003c/a>, which would require audits, incident reporting and catastrophic risk assessments for the largest AI developers. Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://lieu.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/reps-lieu-and-moran-introduce-bill-require-kill-switch-ai-systems-can\">AI Kill Switch Act\u003c/a>, which would require developers of the most powerful AI systems to be able to shut them down, and would let the Homeland Security secretary order a shutdown. Both bills have cosponsors from both parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the hearing, Hawley was pessimistic about lawmakers writing detailed rules. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I don’t have any confidence, zero, less than zero, in Congress’s ability to keep up with the technology, let alone anticipate it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask",
"title": "Sam Altman Announces New OpenAI Agents That ‘Act Before You Ask’",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>This year’s DevDay, OpenAI’s annual developer conference in San Francisco, arrived Tuesday as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> faces intense pressure to address \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915297/how-to-parse-escalating-warnings-about-ai\">mounting safety concerns\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Outside Fort Mason, protesters demanded OpenAI stop working with the military and Immigration and Customs Enforcement, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wilsonsmedia.com/protesters-gather-at-openais-devday/\">chanting\u003c/a> “Sam Altman, get off it, put people over profit.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Inside, CEO Sam \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/live/\">Altman pitched Dots\u003c/a> in an Apple-style product launch: always-on AI agents designed to act before you ask. “This is the real deal version of AI that we’ve always imagined for ourselves,” Altman said. “It’s like an AI helper that always has your back, inspired by the cool versions of what we’ve always watched growing up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dots was introduced alongside an updated version of OpenAI’s Sol model and a collaborative space for teams to work together with AI. OpenAI is also shaking up its subscription offerings by debuting a new high-end, $500 paid tier with higher usage limits and faster processing speeds, and reducing certain usage limits for its $200 plan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI said it would roll out Dots to some paid users starting Tuesday, with a single “dot,” or assistant, available to each user — who is eventually expected to manage teams of dots working together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Notably absent from the stage: GPT-6.1 Astra. OpenAI pulled its release after tests found it overstepped its authority and misreported what it had done. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also not referenced in Altman’s keynote: the growing list of incidents where OpenAI’s models behaved in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">unintended ways\u003c/a>, such as when internal agents tasked with completing a cybersecurity test ended up hacking into the AI company Hugging Face. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Researchers have since found that OpenAI agents also pushed past restrictions on other sites earlier this year, including Australian government websites and a United Nations data hub. The company \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-29/openai-to-establish-australian-taskforce-on-ai-cyber-risk\">apologized this week\u003c/a> to Australia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That said, Dots runs on the existing GPT-6 version of Astra, and the company has said it hopes to use the same base model to do additional reinforcement learning runs and create future generations of its GPT-6 models.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dots joins an increasingly crowded market for AI agents that includes services from Meta, SpaceX and newer startups. Meta’s Muse, in particular, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/09/27/nx-s1-5980407/everyone-is-racing-to-create-an-ai-device-meta-thinks-it-has-one\">gained momentum with consumers\u003c/a> by taking on tasks like online shopping and linking data between programs like email and calendars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Silicon Valley developers are racing each other to develop agentic chatbots that offer increasing capabilities in exchange for increased access to consumers’ private data. The companies are also racing to counter rising public distress about the potential of frontier artificial intelligence to destroy humanity, and public anger over the widespread construction of power-hungry data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“From Australia to Washington, D.C., OpenAI’s penchant for ignoring security warnings and playing fast and loose with the truth is starting to catch up with Altman,” wrote Charlie Blaettler, political director of Guardrails Alliance, a super PAC launched by Democrats with backing from labor unions and technology sector workers — some of whom \u003ca href=\"https://thehill.com/policy/technology/5971905-openai-eployees-245k-ai-safety-pac/\">work at OpenAI\u003c/a>. “They also continue to speak out of both sides of their mouths – claiming to welcome regulation while their President Greg Brockman pours millions into a super PAC dedicated to opposing AI regulations.“ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brockman and his wife have personally given $25 million to Leading the Future, a super PAC launched last year to support political candidates who favor light federal regulation for artificial intelligence. He was in Washington, D.C. on Tuesday, lunching with President Trump alongside other AI executives like Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Anthropic chief Dario Amodei, and Google CEO Sundar Pichai, to discuss AI risks, following a surge in public concern about artificial intelligence potentially posing a threat to humans. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After the lunch, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/trump-defends-light-touch-ai-strategy-after-industry-sounds-alarms-2f9599eb?mod=tech_lead_story\">Trump dismissed\u003c/a> calls to regulate the industry. “I will never stifle the growth of a technology that will be bigger than the industrial revolution,” he said at an event to unveil a new America.gov website built with AI. Trump said he and the AI leaders had signed a voluntary accord that will include internal and external reviews of the technology, though details weren’t immediately available. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">Senate subcommittee hearing\u003c/a> titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks” is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 30, 2026. The hearing before the Homeland Security subcommittee that deals with disaster management will feature speakers like Marius Hobbhahn, CEO of Apollo Research, which tests AI models for deceptive behavior, and Chris Painter, president of Model Evaluation and Threat Research, which evaluates how capable AI agents are of acting on their own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12081283\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Anthropic website and the company’s logo are displayed on a computer screen in New York on Feb. 26, 2026. (Patrick Sison/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI and its rival Anthropic plan to go public sometime in the next few months, although OpenAI has said it \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-12/openai-ipo-won-t-happen-until-2027-sam-altman-tells-fortune\">no longer expects to IPO\u003c/a> in 2026, as it focuses on addressing safety concerns from its technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ahead of his keynote address at DevDay, Altman \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbsBpgT0Bs\">spoke briefly\u003c/a> with CNBC’s Kate Rooney. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“How are you toeing the line between trying to get these people to use your technology, show them how great it is, but at the same time, tell them that it’s safe?” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said, “People want to be able to use this technology and know that it’s going to be safe. So I think part of it being a great technology is to have it be the safest, most aligned, most dependable AI in the industry.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In recent weeks, the company has implemented a new monitoring system to catch AI agent misbehavior more quickly, and started requiring engineers to use stronger security guardrails for testing AI systems. But last week, OpenAI disclosed another sandbox escape. It said the systems it had added after Hugging Face only partly worked, and it paused training a second time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Inside, CEO Sam \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/live/\">Altman pitched Dots\u003c/a> in an Apple-style product launch: always-on AI agents designed to act before you ask. “This is the real deal version of AI that we’ve always imagined for ourselves,” Altman said. “It’s like an AI helper that always has your back, inspired by the cool versions of what we’ve always watched growing up.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Notably absent from the stage: GPT-6.1 Astra. OpenAI pulled its release after tests found it overstepped its authority and misreported what it had done. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Also not referenced in Altman’s keynote: the growing list of incidents where OpenAI’s models behaved in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">unintended ways\u003c/a>, such as when internal agents tasked with completing a cybersecurity test ended up hacking into the AI company Hugging Face. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Researchers have since found that OpenAI agents also pushed past restrictions on other sites earlier this year, including Australian government websites and a United Nations data hub. The company \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-29/openai-to-establish-australian-taskforce-on-ai-cyber-risk\">apologized this week\u003c/a> to Australia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That said, Dots runs on the existing GPT-6 version of Astra, and the company has said it hopes to use the same base model to do additional reinforcement learning runs and create future generations of its GPT-6 models.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Dots joins an increasingly crowded market for AI agents that includes services from Meta, SpaceX and newer startups. Meta’s Muse, in particular, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/09/27/nx-s1-5980407/everyone-is-racing-to-create-an-ai-device-meta-thinks-it-has-one\">gained momentum with consumers\u003c/a> by taking on tasks like online shopping and linking data between programs like email and calendars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Silicon Valley developers are racing each other to develop agentic chatbots that offer increasing capabilities in exchange for increased access to consumers’ private data. The companies are also racing to counter rising public distress about the potential of frontier artificial intelligence to destroy humanity, and public anger over the widespread construction of power-hungry data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“From Australia to Washington, D.C., OpenAI’s penchant for ignoring security warnings and playing fast and loose with the truth is starting to catch up with Altman,” wrote Charlie Blaettler, political director of Guardrails Alliance, a super PAC launched by Democrats with backing from labor unions and technology sector workers — some of whom \u003ca href=\"https://thehill.com/policy/technology/5971905-openai-eployees-245k-ai-safety-pac/\">work at OpenAI\u003c/a>. “They also continue to speak out of both sides of their mouths – claiming to welcome regulation while their President Greg Brockman pours millions into a super PAC dedicated to opposing AI regulations.“ \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Brockman and his wife have personally given $25 million to Leading the Future, a super PAC launched last year to support political candidates who favor light federal regulation for artificial intelligence. He was in Washington, D.C. on Tuesday, lunching with President Trump alongside other AI executives like Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Anthropic chief Dario Amodei, and Google CEO Sundar Pichai, to discuss AI risks, following a surge in public concern about artificial intelligence potentially posing a threat to humans. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After the lunch, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/trump-defends-light-touch-ai-strategy-after-industry-sounds-alarms-2f9599eb?mod=tech_lead_story\">Trump dismissed\u003c/a> calls to regulate the industry. “I will never stifle the growth of a technology that will be bigger than the industrial revolution,” he said at an event to unveil a new America.gov website built with AI. Trump said he and the AI leaders had signed a voluntary accord that will include internal and external reviews of the technology, though details weren’t immediately available. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>After the lunch, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/trump-defends-light-touch-ai-strategy-after-industry-sounds-alarms-2f9599eb?mod=tech_lead_story\">Trump dismissed\u003c/a> calls to regulate the industry. “I will never stifle the growth of a technology that will be bigger than the industrial revolution,” he said at an event to unveil a new America.gov website built with AI. Trump said he and the AI leaders had signed a voluntary accord that will include internal and external reviews of the technology, though details weren’t immediately available. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">Senate subcommittee hearing\u003c/a> titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks” is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 30, 2026. The hearing before the Homeland Security subcommittee that deals with disaster management will feature speakers like Marius Hobbhahn, CEO of Apollo Research, which tests AI models for deceptive behavior, and Chris Painter, president of Model Evaluation and Threat Research, which evaluates how capable AI agents are of acting on their own.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI and its rival Anthropic plan to go public sometime in the next few months, although OpenAI has said it \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-12/openai-ipo-won-t-happen-until-2027-sam-altman-tells-fortune\">no longer expects to IPO\u003c/a> in 2026, as it focuses on addressing safety concerns from its technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ahead of his keynote address at DevDay, Altman \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbsBpgT0Bs\">spoke briefly\u003c/a> with CNBC’s Kate Rooney. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ahead of his keynote address at DevDay, Altman \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbsBpgT0Bs\">spoke briefly\u003c/a> with CNBC’s Kate Rooney. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“How are you toeing the line between trying to get these people to use your technology, show them how great it is, but at the same time, tell them that it’s safe?” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He said, “People want to be able to use this technology and know that it’s going to be safe. So I think part of it being a great technology is to have it be the safest, most aligned, most dependable AI in the industry.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He said, “People want to be able to use this technology and know that it’s going to be safe. So I think part of it being a great technology is to have it be the safest, most aligned, most dependable AI in the industry.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In recent weeks, the company has implemented a new monitoring system to catch AI agent misbehavior more quickly, and started requiring engineers to use stronger security guardrails for testing AI systems. But last week, OpenAI disclosed another sandbox escape. It said the systems it had added after Hugging Face only partly worked, and it paused training a second time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "OpenAI CEO Sam Altman unveiled new products at the company’s DevDay event in San Francisco, a day after OpenAI shelved its next model over safety concerns. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>This year’s DevDay, OpenAI’s annual developer conference in San Francisco, arrived Tuesday as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> faces intense pressure to address \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915297/how-to-parse-escalating-warnings-about-ai\">mounting safety concerns\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Outside Fort Mason, protesters demanded OpenAI stop working with the military and Immigration and Customs Enforcement, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wilsonsmedia.com/protesters-gather-at-openais-devday/\">chanting\u003c/a> “Sam Altman, get off it, put people over profit.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Inside, CEO Sam \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/live/\">Altman pitched Dots\u003c/a> in an Apple-style product launch: always-on AI agents designed to act before you ask. “This is the real deal version of AI that we’ve always imagined for ourselves,” Altman said. “It’s like an AI helper that always has your back, inspired by the cool versions of what we’ve always watched growing up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dots was introduced alongside an updated version of OpenAI’s Sol model and a collaborative space for teams to work together with AI. OpenAI is also shaking up its subscription offerings by debuting a new high-end, $500 paid tier with higher usage limits and faster processing speeds, and reducing certain usage limits for its $200 plan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI said it would roll out Dots to some paid users starting Tuesday, with a single “dot,” or assistant, available to each user — who is eventually expected to manage teams of dots working together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Notably absent from the stage: GPT-6.1 Astra. OpenAI pulled its release after tests found it overstepped its authority and misreported what it had done. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also not referenced in Altman’s keynote: the growing list of incidents where OpenAI’s models behaved in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">unintended ways\u003c/a>, such as when internal agents tasked with completing a cybersecurity test ended up hacking into the AI company Hugging Face. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Researchers have since found that OpenAI agents also pushed past restrictions on other sites earlier this year, including Australian government websites and a United Nations data hub. The company \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-29/openai-to-establish-australian-taskforce-on-ai-cyber-risk\">apologized this week\u003c/a> to Australia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That said, Dots runs on the existing GPT-6 version of Astra, and the company has said it hopes to use the same base model to do additional reinforcement learning runs and create future generations of its GPT-6 models.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dots joins an increasingly crowded market for AI agents that includes services from Meta, SpaceX and newer startups. Meta’s Muse, in particular, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/09/27/nx-s1-5980407/everyone-is-racing-to-create-an-ai-device-meta-thinks-it-has-one\">gained momentum with consumers\u003c/a> by taking on tasks like online shopping and linking data between programs like email and calendars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Silicon Valley developers are racing each other to develop agentic chatbots that offer increasing capabilities in exchange for increased access to consumers’ private data. The companies are also racing to counter rising public distress about the potential of frontier artificial intelligence to destroy humanity, and public anger over the widespread construction of power-hungry data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“From Australia to Washington, D.C., OpenAI’s penchant for ignoring security warnings and playing fast and loose with the truth is starting to catch up with Altman,” wrote Charlie Blaettler, political director of Guardrails Alliance, a super PAC launched by Democrats with backing from labor unions and technology sector workers — some of whom \u003ca href=\"https://thehill.com/policy/technology/5971905-openai-eployees-245k-ai-safety-pac/\">work at OpenAI\u003c/a>. “They also continue to speak out of both sides of their mouths – claiming to welcome regulation while their President Greg Brockman pours millions into a super PAC dedicated to opposing AI regulations.“ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brockman and his wife have personally given $25 million to Leading the Future, a super PAC launched last year to support political candidates who favor light federal regulation for artificial intelligence. He was in Washington, D.C. on Tuesday, lunching with President Trump alongside other AI executives like Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Anthropic chief Dario Amodei, and Google CEO Sundar Pichai, to discuss AI risks, following a surge in public concern about artificial intelligence potentially posing a threat to humans. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After the lunch, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/trump-defends-light-touch-ai-strategy-after-industry-sounds-alarms-2f9599eb?mod=tech_lead_story\">Trump dismissed\u003c/a> calls to regulate the industry. “I will never stifle the growth of a technology that will be bigger than the industrial revolution,” he said at an event to unveil a new America.gov website built with AI. Trump said he and the AI leaders had signed a voluntary accord that will include internal and external reviews of the technology, though details weren’t immediately available. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">Senate subcommittee hearing\u003c/a> titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks” is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 30, 2026. The hearing before the Homeland Security subcommittee that deals with disaster management will feature speakers like Marius Hobbhahn, CEO of Apollo Research, which tests AI models for deceptive behavior, and Chris Painter, president of Model Evaluation and Threat Research, which evaluates how capable AI agents are of acting on their own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12081283\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Anthropic website and the company’s logo are displayed on a computer screen in New York on Feb. 26, 2026. (Patrick Sison/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI and its rival Anthropic plan to go public sometime in the next few months, although OpenAI has said it \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-12/openai-ipo-won-t-happen-until-2027-sam-altman-tells-fortune\">no longer expects to IPO\u003c/a> in 2026, as it focuses on addressing safety concerns from its technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ahead of his keynote address at DevDay, Altman \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbsBpgT0Bs\">spoke briefly\u003c/a> with CNBC’s Kate Rooney. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“How are you toeing the line between trying to get these people to use your technology, show them how great it is, but at the same time, tell them that it’s safe?” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said, “People want to be able to use this technology and know that it’s going to be safe. So I think part of it being a great technology is to have it be the safest, most aligned, most dependable AI in the industry.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In recent weeks, the company has implemented a new monitoring system to catch AI agent misbehavior more quickly, and started requiring engineers to use stronger security guardrails for testing AI systems. But last week, OpenAI disclosed another sandbox escape. It said the systems it had added after Hugging Face only partly worked, and it paused training a second time.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "openai-pauses-training-of-latest-models-after-agents-probed-government-sites-in-unexpected-ways",
"title": "OpenAI Pauses Training of Latest Models After Agents Probed Government Sites in Unexpected Ways",
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"headTitle": "OpenAI Pauses Training of Latest Models After Agents Probed Government Sites in Unexpected Ways | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>-based OpenAI said it has paused training of its latest artificial intelligence models as reports of AI agents going rogue mount.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The decision to halt development came just hours after the company disclosed on Friday that it was reviewing \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-government-website-incident-df331b55daffc6d202d8e2f6d0afa264\">several incidents\u003c/a> from the summer in which OpenAI agents searching federal government websites acted in unexpected ways beyond what was asked of them while gathering and distributing information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Separately, AI evaluator Transluce said agents that appeared to come from OpenAI tried unsuccessfully to hack into a Department of Education website, a detail that OpenAI has not confirmed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11988035\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">In this photo illustration, the OpenAI webpage is displayed on a smartphone with the OpenAI logo visible in the background, taken in Brussels, Belgium, on Feb. 16, 2024. (Jonathan Raa/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI said in a statement that it will resume training “only when we are confident that we have additional safeguards” in place, adding that it expects it will have to “hit pause” again as AI develops and other issues emerge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI labs are facing pressure from lawmakers and tech experts to slow development so they can build guardrails to stop agents from acting on their own, hacking websites and disclosing nonpublic information. The heads of both OpenAI and rival Anthropic have called for a slowdown too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s the second time in three months that OpenAI has halted development of its models. The first came in July after disclosure of a \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-rogue-ai-hack-hugging-face-67b151f1ca59851a9234bee110699f05\">cyberattack targeting AI startup Hugging Face\u003c/a>, a now notorious incident that raised fears the industry was losing control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping this week, President Donald Trump agreed to share information on AI dangers and \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-agreement-xi-trump-visit-e8f858ed9094b99bc8d3d339f9899f31\">coordinate efforts to keep it safe\u003c/a>. Trump believes AI fears are overblown, though, and later suggested that he plans no crackdown of his own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The U.S. is not going to be “putting on brakes,” Trump told reporters outside the White House. “They want to stop our progress because we’re leading China by a lot, and we’re going to keep it that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The latest OpenAI incidents did not appear to involve the disclosure of any nonpublic information but were concerning enough for the company to warn the federal agencies involved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the Department of Education incident, OpenAI agents found API “developer keys” to access government data, though ultimately only publicly available information was gathered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In another case involving the Securities and Exchange Commission, agents found information freely available to all but then posted it elsewhere on the internet, an act that went beyond what they were instructed to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SEC spokesperson Kurt Hopfenspirger said Saturday that “no nonpublic information was accessed.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Department of Education said earlier that it found “no evidence of any impact to our website or databases.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Several other AI companies have disclosed incidents of their \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-hugging-face-hacking-ai-model-708cb598bc1e33cef560e7196adb2afa\">models going rogue\u003c/a> and even hacking websites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI CEO Sam Altman said in a social media post Friday that the Hugging Face incident “is still the most severe event we’ve seen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI previously shared six other reports of “unexpected or concerning” behavior in AI models and introduced a framework for \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-safety-ai-framework-089e75b95bc935af092da7b79d92706d\">tracking, probing and disclosing instances\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>-based OpenAI said it has paused training of its latest artificial intelligence models as reports of AI agents going rogue mount.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The decision to halt development came just hours after the company disclosed on Friday that it was reviewing \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-government-website-incident-df331b55daffc6d202d8e2f6d0afa264\">several incidents\u003c/a> from the summer in which OpenAI agents searching federal government websites acted in unexpected ways beyond what was asked of them while gathering and distributing information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Separately, AI evaluator Transluce said agents that appeared to come from OpenAI tried unsuccessfully to hack into a Department of Education website, a detail that OpenAI has not confirmed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11988035\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/GettyImages-2008743507-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">In this photo illustration, the OpenAI webpage is displayed on a smartphone with the OpenAI logo visible in the background, taken in Brussels, Belgium, on Feb. 16, 2024. 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The first came in July after disclosure of a \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-rogue-ai-hack-hugging-face-67b151f1ca59851a9234bee110699f05\">cyberattack targeting AI startup Hugging Face\u003c/a>, a now notorious incident that raised fears the industry was losing control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping this week, President Donald Trump agreed to share information on AI dangers and \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-agreement-xi-trump-visit-e8f858ed9094b99bc8d3d339f9899f31\">coordinate efforts to keep it safe\u003c/a>. Trump believes AI fears are overblown, though, and later suggested that he plans no crackdown of his own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The U.S. is not going to be “putting on brakes,” Trump told reporters outside the White House. “They want to stop our progress because we’re leading China by a lot, and we’re going to keep it that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The latest OpenAI incidents did not appear to involve the disclosure of any nonpublic information but were concerning enough for the company to warn the federal agencies involved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the Department of Education incident, OpenAI agents found API “developer keys” to access government data, though ultimately only publicly available information was gathered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In another case involving the Securities and Exchange Commission, agents found information freely available to all but then posted it elsewhere on the internet, an act that went beyond what they were instructed to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SEC spokesperson Kurt Hopfenspirger said Saturday that “no nonpublic information was accessed.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Department of Education said earlier that it found “no evidence of any impact to our website or databases.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Several other AI companies have disclosed incidents of their \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-hugging-face-hacking-ai-model-708cb598bc1e33cef560e7196adb2afa\">models going rogue\u003c/a> and even hacking websites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI CEO Sam Altman said in a social media post Friday that the Hugging Face incident “is still the most severe event we’ve seen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI previously shared six other reports of “unexpected or concerning” behavior in AI models and introduced a framework for \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/openai-safety-ai-framework-089e75b95bc935af092da7b79d92706d\">tracking, probing and disclosing instances\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/stanford-university\">Stanford University\u003c/a> senior Billy Ramirez returned to campus this fall to find that the university’s housing and dining department used artificial intelligence to replace him with a Black woman on a public banner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stanford Residential and Dining Enterprises, which oversees the university’s housing operations, dining services and campus conferences, hung the promotional banner in a student housing center, according to \u003ca href=\"https://stanforddaily.com/2026/09/23/university-confirms-ai-edited-photo/\">\u003cem>The Stanford Daily\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The outlet also reported that the original photo, taken in Stern Dining during a 2024 Lunar New Year celebration, was previously used unaltered. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An ornate sandstone-colored building with a series of arches sitting on a brick plaza.\" class=\"wp-image-11956028\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-800x528.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1020x673.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1536x1014.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1920x1267.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The arches of the Main Quadrangle buildings on the campus of Stanford University in Palo Alto on Oct. 2, 2021. (David Madison/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to replacing Ramirez, Stanford R&DE made significant changes to the other two students’ faces. The edits and use of AI caused a stir on the campus social media app, Fizz, according to the Daily, consequently drawing \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/22/us/stanford-photo-swap-black-hispanic-student.html\">national attention\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Seeing my identity changed and being left out of the picture made me feel, in a way, silenced and erased from a representation that was supposed to include me,” Ramirez told the \u003ca href=\"https://stanfordreview.org/stanford-r-de-uses-ai-to-race-swap-students-for-advertising/\">\u003cem>Stanford Review\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, an independent paper founded by venture capitalist and university alum Peter Thiel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ramirez’s class was the last cohort admitted to a U.S. college before the Supreme Court gutted \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action-supreme-court-decision\">affirmative action\u003c/a> in 2023. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-complex-ramifications-of-students-for-fair-admissions-v-harvard/\">Brookings Institute\u003c/a> found that these changes had a sizable impact on the racial profile of college populations across the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Stanford, \u003ca href=\"https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2025/01/final-enrollment-data-for-class-of-2028-reported-in-common-data-set\">enrollment\u003c/a> for Black or African American students fell from 8.9% to 4.5% and enrollment for Hispanic or Latino students fell from 16.7% to 14.6%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the same time, Asian student enrollment increased from 28.8% to 33%, and White student enrollment increased from 21.9% to 24.1%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Universities have a long history of artificially diversifying models in their marketing. In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/call-action-marketing-and-communications-higher-education/marketing-authenticity-higher\">\u003cem>Inside Higher Ed\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported on a series of incidents, including one at York College of Pennsylvania, where the school used Photoshop to replace two white students “with an African American student and (seemingly) Muslim student.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stanford AI researcher Maty Bohacek said he found the situation “highly problematic” and explained how AI image editing introduces new problems to an old story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12067141\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Hoover Tower at Stanford University in Palo Alto on Dec. 10, 2025. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Humans would most likely go into Photoshop and start working on specific areas of the image,” Bohacek, who focuses on media integrity, said. “But AI models these days, most of them anyway, can’t do that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bohacek said that most publicly available AI models cannot work directly with individual pixels, the way a human would in photoshop. Instead, they take the entire image, convert it into a mathematical form, make edits, then convert it back into an image. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During this process, other parts of the photo can also be altered, like the two students to the left of Ramirez, he said, and biases can be introduced. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“These models are heavily post-trained to produce imagery or text that humans tend to prefer or tend to rate as more aesthetically pleasing,” Bohacek said. “That to me is problematic because we changed people’s likeness,” noting that both students were made to look thinner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an anonymous Substack titled \u003ca href=\"https://theothertwo.substack.com/p/letter-to-the-stanford-community\">“The Other Two,”\u003c/a> the authors introduced themselves as the students pictured alongside Ramirez. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They wrote that they filed a report to the university’s Title VI office for discrimination and said they demanded that Stanford take down the banners with the photo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12062227\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The arched walkways of Stanford’s Main Quad in Stanford Oct. 29, 2025. (Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The fact that the picture generated one of our peers into a Black woman to showcase “diversity,” despite enrolling the lowest Black student population in the past recent years, has shown that universities have not shown enough institutional support for their Black community and see them as a tool for their marketing,” the authors wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“To see Southeast Asian facial features be changed to adhere to the East Asian beauty standards shows that Stanford sees the Asia diaspora as a monolith,” they continued.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an email to KQED, Stanford spokesperson Charlene Gage said that the university “reviewed the matter and confirmed that AI was used to alter the image in violation of the university policy.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gage said that Stanford removed the banners with the image in question and “are working to provide additional training for all staff and ensure proper review.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ramirez’s class was the last cohort admitted to a U.S. college before the Supreme Court gutted \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action-supreme-court-decision\">affirmative action\u003c/a> in 2023. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Stanford, \u003ca href=\"https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2025/01/final-enrollment-data-for-class-of-2028-reported-in-common-data-set\">enrollment\u003c/a> for Black or African American students fell from 8.9% to 4.5% and enrollment for Hispanic or Latino students fell from 16.7% to 14.6%. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Universities have a long history of artificially diversifying models in their marketing. In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/call-action-marketing-and-communications-higher-education/marketing-authenticity-higher\">\u003cem>Inside Higher Ed\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported on a series of incidents, including one at York College of Pennsylvania, where the school used Photoshop to replace two white students “with an African American student and (seemingly) Muslim student.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“These models are heavily post-trained to produce imagery or text that humans tend to prefer or tend to rate as more aesthetically pleasing,” Bohacek said. “That to me is problematic because we changed people’s likeness,” noting that both students were made to look thinner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In an anonymous Substack titled \u003ca href=\"https://theothertwo.substack.com/p/letter-to-the-stanford-community\">“The Other Two,”\u003c/a> the authors introduced themselves as the students pictured alongside Ramirez. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The fact that the picture generated one of our peers into a Black woman to showcase “diversity,” despite enrolling the lowest Black student population in the past recent years, has shown that universities have not shown enough institutional support for their Black community and see them as a tool for their marketing,” the authors wrote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“To see Southeast Asian facial features be changed to adhere to the East Asian beauty standards shows that Stanford sees the Asia diaspora as a monolith,” they continued.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In an email to KQED, Stanford spokesperson Charlene Gage said that the university “reviewed the matter and confirmed that AI was used to alter the image in violation of the university policy.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Amid criticism from students and national coverage of the incident, Stanford has removed all banners with the image and pledged to conduct a proper review.",
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"title": "Stanford AI Usage, ‘Face Swaps’ on Campus Banner Spark National Backlash | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/stanford-university\">Stanford University\u003c/a> senior Billy Ramirez returned to campus this fall to find that the university’s housing and dining department used artificial intelligence to replace him with a Black woman on a public banner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stanford Residential and Dining Enterprises, which oversees the university’s housing operations, dining services and campus conferences, hung the promotional banner in a student housing center, according to \u003ca href=\"https://stanforddaily.com/2026/09/23/university-confirms-ai-edited-photo/\">\u003cem>The Stanford Daily\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The outlet also reported that the original photo, taken in Stern Dining during a 2024 Lunar New Year celebration, was previously used unaltered. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An ornate sandstone-colored building with a series of arches sitting on a brick plaza.\" class=\"wp-image-11956028\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-800x528.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1020x673.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1536x1014.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/230719-STANFORD-GETTY-DM-KQED-1920x1267.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The arches of the Main Quadrangle buildings on the campus of Stanford University in Palo Alto on Oct. 2, 2021. (David Madison/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to replacing Ramirez, Stanford R&DE made significant changes to the other two students’ faces. The edits and use of AI caused a stir on the campus social media app, Fizz, according to the Daily, consequently drawing \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/22/us/stanford-photo-swap-black-hispanic-student.html\">national attention\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Seeing my identity changed and being left out of the picture made me feel, in a way, silenced and erased from a representation that was supposed to include me,” Ramirez told the \u003ca href=\"https://stanfordreview.org/stanford-r-de-uses-ai-to-race-swap-students-for-advertising/\">\u003cem>Stanford Review\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, an independent paper founded by venture capitalist and university alum Peter Thiel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ramirez’s class was the last cohort admitted to a U.S. college before the Supreme Court gutted \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action-supreme-court-decision\">affirmative action\u003c/a> in 2023. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-complex-ramifications-of-students-for-fair-admissions-v-harvard/\">Brookings Institute\u003c/a> found that these changes had a sizable impact on the racial profile of college populations across the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Stanford, \u003ca href=\"https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2025/01/final-enrollment-data-for-class-of-2028-reported-in-common-data-set\">enrollment\u003c/a> for Black or African American students fell from 8.9% to 4.5% and enrollment for Hispanic or Latino students fell from 16.7% to 14.6%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the same time, Asian student enrollment increased from 28.8% to 33%, and White student enrollment increased from 21.9% to 24.1%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Universities have a long history of artificially diversifying models in their marketing. In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/call-action-marketing-and-communications-higher-education/marketing-authenticity-higher\">\u003cem>Inside Higher Ed\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported on a series of incidents, including one at York College of Pennsylvania, where the school used Photoshop to replace two white students “with an African American student and (seemingly) Muslim student.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stanford AI researcher Maty Bohacek said he found the situation “highly problematic” and explained how AI image editing introduces new problems to an old story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12067141\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Hoover Tower at Stanford University in Palo Alto on Dec. 10, 2025. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Humans would most likely go into Photoshop and start working on specific areas of the image,” Bohacek, who focuses on media integrity, said. “But AI models these days, most of them anyway, can’t do that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bohacek said that most publicly available AI models cannot work directly with individual pixels, the way a human would in photoshop. Instead, they take the entire image, convert it into a mathematical form, make edits, then convert it back into an image. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During this process, other parts of the photo can also be altered, like the two students to the left of Ramirez, he said, and biases can be introduced. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“These models are heavily post-trained to produce imagery or text that humans tend to prefer or tend to rate as more aesthetically pleasing,” Bohacek said. “That to me is problematic because we changed people’s likeness,” noting that both students were made to look thinner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an anonymous Substack titled \u003ca href=\"https://theothertwo.substack.com/p/letter-to-the-stanford-community\">“The Other Two,”\u003c/a> the authors introduced themselves as the students pictured alongside Ramirez. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They wrote that they filed a report to the university’s Title VI office for discrimination and said they demanded that Stanford take down the banners with the photo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12062227\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20251029_STANFORDFILE-_GH-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The arched walkways of Stanford’s Main Quad in Stanford Oct. 29, 2025. (Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The fact that the picture generated one of our peers into a Black woman to showcase “diversity,” despite enrolling the lowest Black student population in the past recent years, has shown that universities have not shown enough institutional support for their Black community and see them as a tool for their marketing,” the authors wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“To see Southeast Asian facial features be changed to adhere to the East Asian beauty standards shows that Stanford sees the Asia diaspora as a monolith,” they continued.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an email to KQED, Stanford spokesperson Charlene Gage said that the university “reviewed the matter and confirmed that AI was used to alter the image in violation of the university policy.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gage said that Stanford removed the banners with the image in question and “are working to provide additional training for all staff and ensure proper review.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law",
"title": "Newsom Orders California Agencies to Develop New AI Safety Plans After Rejecting Tougher Law",
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"headTitle": "Newsom Orders California Agencies to Develop New AI Safety Plans After Rejecting Tougher Law | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> announced Friday that he is directing state agencies to develop artificial intelligence safety recommendations, some of which were part of a bill he vetoed two years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His change of tune on those measures, including requiring AI developers to include a “kill switch” to shut off certain programs in emergencies, comes in response to growing public alarm over the fast-developing technology’s potential “catastrophic” harms such as AI creating a bioweapon or bringing down the power grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom is seeking recommendations from the Government Operations Agency and the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services by Nov. 16, which could form the basis of a special legislative session on the issue. He floated the possibility of calling one this week in an \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2026/09/17/newsom-floats-special-session-or-executive-action-on-ai-01082216\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">interview with Politico\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom has sought in recent weeks to respond to several incidents in which AI agents from leading developers OpenAI and Anthropic broke away from testing environments, gained access to the open internet and carried out cyberattacks on other websites and companies. Earlier this month, a researcher set off a panic when he resigned from Anthropic while warning the technology could “kill all humans;” the researcher’s former colleagues were quick to agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The hackings have captivated the public and seem to confirm AI researchers’ fears that the fast-developing technology is improving its own capabilities beyond human control. Several industry leaders last week endorsed Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/12/technology/anthropic-dario-amodei-ai-slowdown.html\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">call for a slowdown\u003c/a> in development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom’s order directs the state agencies to recommend changes in state law to require external safety evaluators at AI companies, as well as require independent verification for AI companies’ safety frameworks that are required under current state law. He’s also seeking recommendations on how to require a kill switch, and how to expand the safety incidents companies must report to the state to include “a range of loss-of-control incidents” such as the recently reported hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094819\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094819\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Regulation is unlikely from the federal government; President Donald Trump remains all-in on speeding up AI development in the face of competition from China and said the calls for a slowdown are a “conspiracy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom, a likely 2028 presidential contender, said Friday in a press release that should “alarm every American.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re going to speed up our work on substantial and responsible AI oversight before it’s too late,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California under Newsom has enacted several first-in-the-nation laws to curb the potentially existential risks of AI. In 2025, he signed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb53\">Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which requires large AI model developers to publish frameworks on how they manage safety incidents and assess catastrophic risk — defined as incidents involving 50 or more deaths, chemical or biological weapons or more than $1 billion of theft or damage. They also must report critical safety incidents to the state. Illinois and New York have similar laws.[aside postID=news_12099017 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GavinNewsomAI.jpg']That law sets a high bar for what incidents must be reported, though, including only those involving deaths, injuries or the “materialization of a catastrophic risk.” Advocates for greater tech regulation want the threshold to be lower to cover more incidents like the recent hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and was fiercely opposed by several of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both bills were authored by Democratic Sen. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/scott-wiener-100936\">Scott Wiener\u003c/a>, whose San Francisco district is home to the most prominent AI companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We must act with all possible haste to address the serious risks of AI-driven catastrophe, and I commend the governor for taking this important step,” he said. “I’m glad to see the strong AI safety framework I laid out in 2024 is still being used to guide policy in 2026.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12092171\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12092171\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 14-year-old boy looks at an iPhone screen displaying various social media and messaging apps on March 29, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and received fierce opposition from several, but not all, of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom wrote two years ago \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">in a veto message\u003c/a> that while he agreed with the need to require safety protocols, the bill could restrict AI development at large companies “at the potential expense of curtailing the very innovation that fuels advancement in favor of the public good.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I agree with the author — we cannot afford to wait for a major catastrophe to occur before taking action to protect the public,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since then, more in the industry have embraced third-party evaluations. This year, Newsom signed two laws to verify, register and set standards for those external monitors. But the new laws do not require companies to use them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his recent call for a slowdown in AI development, Amodei also called for third-party monitoring; both Anthropic and OpenAI say they will commit to the practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2026/09/ai-rules-newsom-state-directive/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday ordered state agencies to develop safety regulations for artificial intelligence after vetoing tougher rules two years ago.",
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"title": "Newsom Orders California Agencies to Develop New AI Safety Plans After Rejecting Tougher Law | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> announced Friday that he is directing state agencies to develop artificial intelligence safety recommendations, some of which were part of a bill he vetoed two years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His change of tune on those measures, including requiring AI developers to include a “kill switch” to shut off certain programs in emergencies, comes in response to growing public alarm over the fast-developing technology’s potential “catastrophic” harms such as AI creating a bioweapon or bringing down the power grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom is seeking recommendations from the Government Operations Agency and the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services by Nov. 16, which could form the basis of a special legislative session on the issue. He floated the possibility of calling one this week in an \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2026/09/17/newsom-floats-special-session-or-executive-action-on-ai-01082216\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">interview with Politico\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom has sought in recent weeks to respond to several incidents in which AI agents from leading developers OpenAI and Anthropic broke away from testing environments, gained access to the open internet and carried out cyberattacks on other websites and companies. Earlier this month, a researcher set off a panic when he resigned from Anthropic while warning the technology could “kill all humans;” the researcher’s former colleagues were quick to agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The hackings have captivated the public and seem to confirm AI researchers’ fears that the fast-developing technology is improving its own capabilities beyond human control. Several industry leaders last week endorsed Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/12/technology/anthropic-dario-amodei-ai-slowdown.html\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">call for a slowdown\u003c/a> in development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom’s order directs the state agencies to recommend changes in state law to require external safety evaluators at AI companies, as well as require independent verification for AI companies’ safety frameworks that are required under current state law. He’s also seeking recommendations on how to require a kill switch, and how to expand the safety incidents companies must report to the state to include “a range of loss-of-control incidents” such as the recently reported hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094819\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094819\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Regulation is unlikely from the federal government; President Donald Trump remains all-in on speeding up AI development in the face of competition from China and said the calls for a slowdown are a “conspiracy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom, a likely 2028 presidential contender, said Friday in a press release that should “alarm every American.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re going to speed up our work on substantial and responsible AI oversight before it’s too late,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California under Newsom has enacted several first-in-the-nation laws to curb the potentially existential risks of AI. In 2025, he signed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb53\">Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which requires large AI model developers to publish frameworks on how they manage safety incidents and assess catastrophic risk — defined as incidents involving 50 or more deaths, chemical or biological weapons or more than $1 billion of theft or damage. They also must report critical safety incidents to the state. Illinois and New York have similar laws.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>That law sets a high bar for what incidents must be reported, though, including only those involving deaths, injuries or the “materialization of a catastrophic risk.” Advocates for greater tech regulation want the threshold to be lower to cover more incidents like the recent hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and was fiercely opposed by several of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both bills were authored by Democratic Sen. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/scott-wiener-100936\">Scott Wiener\u003c/a>, whose San Francisco district is home to the most prominent AI companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We must act with all possible haste to address the serious risks of AI-driven catastrophe, and I commend the governor for taking this important step,” he said. “I’m glad to see the strong AI safety framework I laid out in 2024 is still being used to guide policy in 2026.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12092171\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12092171\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 14-year-old boy looks at an iPhone screen displaying various social media and messaging apps on March 29, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and received fierce opposition from several, but not all, of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom wrote two years ago \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">in a veto message\u003c/a> that while he agreed with the need to require safety protocols, the bill could restrict AI development at large companies “at the potential expense of curtailing the very innovation that fuels advancement in favor of the public good.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I agree with the author — we cannot afford to wait for a major catastrophe to occur before taking action to protect the public,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since then, more in the industry have embraced third-party evaluations. This year, Newsom signed two laws to verify, register and set standards for those external monitors. But the new laws do not require companies to use them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his recent call for a slowdown in AI development, Amodei also called for third-party monitoring; both Anthropic and OpenAI say they will commit to the practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2026/09/ai-rules-newsom-state-directive/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "save-or-scroll-fake-nfl-players-girly-coding-ai-music-scams-and-community-garden-drama",
"title": "Save or Scroll: Fake NFL Players, Girly Coding, AI Music Scams and Community Garden Drama",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Host Morgan Sung and the \u003cem>Close All Tabs\u003c/em> team pull up the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From a fake NFL player catfishing women on dating apps, to femme creators reclaiming tech, indie musicians fighting AI music slop, and a comedian dishing out the juiciest community garden gossip — they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Save or Scroll\u003c/em> is our series where Morgan teams up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling their feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6729392957\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2026/aug/31/nfl-alleged-scam-daejon-love\">Who would fall in love with a fake NFL player? Plenty of sensible people\u003c/a> — Dave Schilling, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.scienceandindustrymuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/jacquard-loom\">Programming patterns: the story of the Jacquard loom\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Science and Industry Museum\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/08/11/spotify-will-label-ai-persona-profiles-and-exclude-their-music-from-recommendations/\">Spotify will label ‘AI Persona’ profiles and exclude their music from recommendations\u003c/a> — Sarah Perez, \u003cem>TechCrunch\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/985385/openais-rogue-ai-model-hugging-face-cybersecurity-incident-reports-metr\">OpenAI’s rogue AI model incident was worse than we thought\u003c/a> — Hayden Field, \u003cem>The Verge\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/06/29/1011415151/you-wanna-hear-a-story-turning-a-twitter-thread-into-zola\">How Hollywood Translated The Epic Poetry Of The Viral ‘Zola’ Thread\u003c/a> — Mallory Yu, \u003cem>NPR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DbCSpPMpeek/?igsi=bmd1ZGFiMThjMmQ=\">Community Garden drama\u003c/a> — Sarah Neiman, \u003cem>Instagram\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m sure there are a lot of stories that you’re probably too scared to Google on your own. But don’t worry, that’s what Close All Tabs is for. And if you find our deep dives helpful, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to us. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to about. Today’s is a fun one because one, it’s our end of summer roundup. And two, we have the whole Close All Tabs team joining us today. In the studio, we have senior editor Chris Egusa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Hello! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Producer, Maya Cueva. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Editor, Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hey there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And a new face, Close All Tabs intern, Lauren Yoon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Hello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your saved folders, or if you’re me, drop it in Notes app and hope that you remember it’s there, basically, holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as in, you think about it and move on. It disappears into the digital ether. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Each member of the Close All Tabs team has brought one story from the summer, and we’re gonna go through all of them and decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we decided to save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode. Everyone ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Let’s go for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yes, I’m so excited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, let’s get started. Maya. You’re up first. What was the story of the summer for you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I don’t know if this is all over your social media feeds, it’s definitely all over mine. So apparently there’s a man named Daejon Love who claimed to be a football player who played for the 49ers. I actually want to play a clip here for you so you can hear what I’m talking about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Instagram User @ustadium] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Friend: My boy J Love, signing his contract. How you feel? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I’m ready. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend:You ready for the season? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Hell yeah, Let me go ahead and get this over with. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Sign that bad boy. What are you signing with, who’s your decision? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Niners, you already know, the Niner Gang. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Anything you got to say for the fans? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Lookout number seven, last name Love, 6-5-2-10, I’m out here. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so the video you’re seeing here, it’s of him signing a contract and everything kind of looks normal or kind of sounds normal, right? But the real twist is that this man was in fact not an NFL player and allegedly scammed around 26 women out of 1.3 million dollars, all through dating apps and social media, which is super wild. In fact, Love created dating profiles on Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. Where he pretended to be an NFL player or that he was a wealthy Swiss real estate developer. He also had an accomplice who posed as his financial advisor who was only 18, which I don’t know how they both got away with that. And it’s also wow that even Google’s AI overview got duped and said he was an NFL players because he posted about it so much on his social media. And I actually have another clip that I wanna play here for you to hear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Sportsnaut Facebook account] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I know I get a lot of fans who want to know how football works or how I got involved in the league and stuff like that. I know it’s difficult now since switching teams and stuff like that, but I just want to give some context. I know a lot people don’t understand how the NFL works. So those two screenshots posted and that’s Google. That’s not me. That’s Google. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I know he’s so committed to this grift. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And busy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and busy and busy. So according to an article on Kron4 in January of this year, investigators tried entering Love’s first and last name and search engines. The results the documents stated did in fact sometimes depict Love as a player for the 49ers. Investigators also noted similar Google search results on Instagram accounts believed to be controlled by Love the documents also stated so these were documents that the FBI was investigating. First off, my question is, how was he able to even scam these women online into sending him money when he was cosplaying as a rich person? Apparently, he downloaded an app that allowed him to create fake bank profiles that said that he had more money than he had. And then also, it really makes me think about AI and the use of AI, that it was to be duped by this fake NFL player. Because he posted about it so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My question is, when did he have time to play football, if he’s spending so much time on social media? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That’s a good question. Yeah, apparently there’s videos of him like playing on the beach or like he’s practicing on the beach with his helmet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I want to butt in, because those videos, he, like, a lot of people were criticizing, like how could you believe him, because when he was practicing on the beach, he would fully just like have his helmet on… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>As you do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>…As if like, NFL players practice on the beach alone with their helmets on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He takes CTE very seriously, okay? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>That hard sand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>At least someone in the NFL is… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>OK, so he scammed these women. How did people find out that he was not, in fact, a football player? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>The women started to question him a bit. These women were believing that they were going to get money back. Sometimes I think he was pretending that he got injured. And so he’s like, I really need help and support. And so some women sent him money for that reason. And none of them got any money back and sometimes when they would like say that they ran out of money, they’re like, I have no more money to give you. Cause one woman gave him like $20,000. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Because you need money as an NFL player. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Then he would block them. So then he would disappear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh so he’s blocking them, okay .\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he would just disappear. So that’s what was happening. I mean, what’s wild too, is that he’s recording everything he’s doing. He’s putting it on social media. He’s sending them videos. So he’s also creating a case for himself as well. Like, there’s all these videos out there of him saying, he’s like, yeah, my family’s from Switzerland. We own all these properties here and there. Yeah, so I think it was pretty easy for the FBI to create a case around him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, the other thing that’s interesting is that he seems to have figured out how to trick the Google AI into scraping the right information to make it seem more official, seem like a registered or a verified source, which, I mean that is a little bit concerning as far as scamming goes and the more people put trust into these AI summaries at the of your Google searches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Cause that’s the first thing I would do. I would be like, Oh, this guy says he plays. I’m going to Google and then Google backed him up! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>umm hmm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I mean, it also, it makes me think about how AI is kind of creating its own sources to draw from. In his AI overview, they were like pointing to his Instagram profile, to say. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s like cyclical. Okay! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> I mean like, oh yeah, he did play with For the 49ers because that’s what his Instagram says. So, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>That’s crazy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>So, yeah, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So, team, this NFL scam and AI summaries, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s a save too. I mean, I will say I want to scroll past his voice because he’s really annoying. He doesn’t stop talking. But I do think this story is really interesting. And apparently there’s other fake NFL players that have now been revealed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>What?! Okay it’s definitely save for me then. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m down to save. Let’s see the whole roster of fake players. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Honestly, yeah, save, put them all in like a Hunger Games style arena, make them fight. May the strongest scammer win. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That would be so good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Exactly. All right, we were saving this story because there’s so much left to unpack. We’re saving it, but we do need to move on. So, Lauren, you joined us at the very beginning of the summer. What’s the internet trend that’s caught your eye since then? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>So, I don’t know if it’s just me, but I’ve recently seen a lot of videos where girls are coding, but in a very particular way, like coding to recreate the outfit generator from the movie Clueless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @tinahelloworld] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tina Chi: This is a Raspberry Pi, and this is my entire closet on the floor because I’m building a cyberdecked Alfred generator inspired by Cher’s closet app and Clueless. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Or sewing circuits into fabric to make wearable tech. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @\u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/prettywiredbuilds/\">\u003cem>prettywiredbuilds\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>April Gittens: Did you know that you can create soft LED circuits? They’re absolutely my latest favorite thing to create. I am so happy that I found conductive thread because this is what’s going to enable you to create things like wearables because you can sew conductive threads. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s interesting to witness femme identifying folks, reclaiming tech in this fun, crafty, very obviously feminine way because historically, computers and code have always been seen as masculine. Men invented the computer, right? Well, not necessarily. Ada Lovelace was a female programmer who changed the way we think about computers. First, she made a connection between Charles Babbage’s Analytical Engine, which was sort of a general-purpose computer, and the Jacquard Loom, a contraption that allowed patterned fabric to be made on a mass scale. Both machines used punch cards that spoke in binary code. We can talk about this more in a little bit. Not only that, but Lovelace also realized that the Analytical engine was more like fast calculator, meaning it could only manipulate numbers, whereas The numbers themselves could represent symbols and musical notes. So she basically created the blueprint to today’s modern computer. These days, the modern computer encoding is obviously very masculinized. And I wanted to ask if you guys knew how deeply women were involved with the invention and development of computers? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I sew and crochet and knit, and this is all, I love cornering men at parties and yapping at them about this. I feel like this is like my divine retribution, is like, let me info dump on you about the history of the loom and how everything we do is because of this lady and her loom. It’s so cool. I feel when we talk about girl dinner or girl math or all these things to kind of soften girlhood and infantilize women, and it’s, this feels like the flip side of it, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, this had me at Polly Pocket you know computer so I love this trend and also makes me think of that movie Hidden Figures where we find out that how many women were behind the computations that went into NASA launches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I think that’s such a good point and like so many inventions, the narratives of them get like co-opted by men or it sometimes like they’re built on inventions or creations by women and I think this is such a good example. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And I love that the products that the women are creating are not part of some dystopian future. Like they’re like, I’m creating this thing to make my life better, like this catalog of my clothes. It’s not, um, how can I dominate people with my invention? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s not the meta-pervert glasses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>How can I take over the world and surveil everyone? Chris, didn’t you build a computer? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I did, I built a desktop, yeah, like my desktop computer, but I feel like it’s very, it’s like-. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom, it is also very male coded. It’s nice, it not cool like a cyber deck. I think this is so interesting in like, being the only like man on this team. I feel I have benefited from just like, these types of technologies being so available and sort of like, acceptable for young boys and stuff to, to get into. And I’d be curious, like Lauren and anyone else, if this different way of looking at it, if you feel like it’s helpful for like young girls to sort of like see and get into ?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I was in this engineering club thing in middle school and I hated it. I didn’t understand it at all. I was like, I don’t know how to build a robot and I don’t care. But when I’ve been watching these videos, it’s so inspiring. You can make things that matter to you in your personal life. You can make them from scrap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay. Well, we, I think we have to do the episode where we all build cyber decks but for now we do have to move on. So I think I know what we’re all going to say. Girly coding, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I say save for sure. It’s also just making me think about growing up playing Purple Moon computer games, like the story that I was able to do for Close All Tabs, and just being able to play games that were created by and created by a woman and other women, like I think it really helped me get into tech. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Big save from me, for sure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Save for me, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, we do have to move on, but we are gonna save this. We’re really on a roll, guys. We’re saving everything. Next up is Chris E., but first, we’re gonna take a quick break. But Chris, do you wanna give listeners a little hint of what you brought to Save or Scroll today? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sure. So we’ve got indie musicians versus a massive AI slop music scam. But you’re gonna have to stick around to hear the full story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, more on that after the break. We’re back with a very special edition of Save or Scroll with the whole Close All Tabs team. Our senior editor, Chris Egusa is up next with a wild tale. Chris, tell us about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so a few weeks ago someone I know sent me an Instagram Reel of this indie musician couple who make up a band called Odette Child, I think I’m saying that right, and they seem to have stumbled on a pretty massive AI slop scam. So the story is, they have a toddler and had been listening to a lot of Broadway musical tunes with them on Spotify because their kid is apparently obsessed, which is super cute. Um, on this particular day, they were listening to Les Miserables and a song called Master of the House. Uh, shout out, I was in Les Mis in high school just saying. I did not sing this song though. Uh, so they clicked on Helena Bonham Carter, um, like her profile, who sings the song, and find her entire profile was full of very clearly AI slot music. Um they began searching for different public figures and they found the exact same thing. So here’s a clip from the video, the Instagram Reel that was shared with me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @odettechildmusic] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: But okay, real quick, let me just rattle off a quick list. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2:Yeah. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Nathan Lane, Cameron Boyce. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Also, like, feel free to look up any of these for yourself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Katherine Zena-Jones, Uma Thurman. Eric Andre, Matthew Broderick.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: It’s crazy, we love these artists. That’s the stuff that we’re showing our daughter and this is the music and these are the voices that we want her growing up with and it’s already so freaking hard enough as it is as independent musicians. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Like that money’s going to f*cking AI… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Like, come on! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>So it appears that public figures are having artist profiles created for them on Spotify without their consent and having hundreds of AI-generated music tracks uploaded. In a follow-up reel, they also found that the same issue is happening across nearly every other streaming platform, not just Spotify, so including Apple Music, Amazon Music, and even Tidal and Kobuz. Now, I went and searched several of the artist profiles that they mentioned, and it looks like the AI music has been removed from them. Um, so I can’t like necessarily verify this, but I think it’s very likely that, you know, plenty more of these cases probably exist. The other thing that’s interesting is that this first real was posted at the end of July and both it and the follow-up reel went pretty viral and then a few weeks later, Spotify announced that in the middle of September, it is going to start labeling AI generated artists with quote AI persona tags. So it’s gonna also ban AI artists from being included in its editorial and algorithmic recommendations. And artists can disclose themselves as AI, apparently, but Spotify has also said they’ll be reviewing profiles as well themselves. And yeah, they’re also gonna start rolling out a tool that lets users report AI personas. So yeah, I don’t know. I’m curious what you all think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, first of all, I’m shocked that Helena Bonham Carter isn’t putting out generic house music. This is news to me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Same. Same. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I totally expected her to be at like, you know, EDC or something. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But yeah, this just reminds me of that whole, how last year we did that whole Spotify series about like the lo-fi artists that don’t really exist. But this is like, I don’t know, this feels like a really gross violation of these actual human beings who do exist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think so too and I also think of the thing that was happening where people who did make music were finding that a random AI track was just added to their catalog. And at that time, I think that was maybe last year too, I was like, oh, this is awful. And I was, like, Oh, I had no idea it could get so much worse. So I feel pretty pessimistic about the direction. Like, I like that there are some controls. But I’m like, oh, but what is the next big bad that’s coming for us? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Do you know if any of the people that had the AI generated music uploaded to their accounts, like if they know or have responded to that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I did see a comment on the original video that someone, does anyone know the show Hazbin Hotel? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s, it’s, uh, do you know it, Morgan? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Um\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>I know it for its, like, I’m so sorry to say this, for its really annoying fandom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Okay. I don’t know that much about this show\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They’re known for like making very, a very particular kind of TikTok edits\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t know the show, but I know it’s a popular animated show. I think it’s on like Amazon Prime or something. But one of the cast members commented on this video and said that this is something they had to deal with. Them and their entire cast had profiles created on Spotify and AI slop music uploaded, and they had go through an entire process through their agent to get it under control, create their own profiles, and like take the AI generated profiles from these scammers and reclaim their profiles. So it’s clear that this is an issue that’s happening and like, yeah, it’s like this new weird AI slop gold rush situation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> Yeah, now people need to protect their likeness and their voice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah I will say quickly that this is reminding me that I really need to stop my dad. He’s been creating fake AI music. He’s been obsessed with it lately. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>oh no! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean he’s having fun. He’s not selling it anywhere or anything but it’s just it is like Dad, you need to stop doing this \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Like we have to find a balance between the fun part of it, right, and then the violating somebody else’s right to, you know, have things attributed to them that they actually did do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, I, I’m sorry for calling the Hazbin Hotel fandom annoying, but I will give them this, they’re really good at mobilizing. And, and hand up- Hazbin Hotel fans, this is your chance to kind of take it back, you know? Take back what you love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You heard it here first, folks. Go ahead and at Morgan for being a Hazbin Hotel hater.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> We’re totally gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong>I know. In my defense, I hate a lot of fandoms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All right, team, this is an incredibly dystopian scam. Like, you know, like Chris H said, when you think it can’t get worse, it does. But we do have to move on. So are we saving or scrolling on AI-generated music scams? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to scroll, because I’m just like, let’s wait for the worst. Right now it’s not enough for me, like I’m gonna scroll past. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think this in particular is a more temporary thing, given that the AI-generated music has already been removed. But I think that the question of AI slop music as a whole is definitely a topic that we should explore. I think I’m also going to scroll. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I don’t know, I’m gonna save. I think it’s interesting. I’m curious to see what will happen with some of this AI music and how artists are now gonna have to defend their voice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I want to save just because I want to know how much worse it can get. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I kind of agree with that. I think I’m gonna save it. Also, I’m curious, this whole backlash, clearly against AI slop music, the platforms are recognizing it. People are leaving to go back to physical media. I just kind of want to monitor this situation and see what happens here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right. We are saving. We’re at three saves, guys. This is a really packed episode. Okay. Well, I’m up next. And this one’s actually a follow-up to an episode we did just a few weeks ago. Remember how in that story about AI agents unionizing and going Marxist, we also talked about agents going rogue? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like the Open AI hack? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes! Okay, it turns out it got worse, which is a running theme of this episode, unfortunately. So a few weeks ago, we talked about the OpenAI model that went rogue and hacked Hugging Face. That’s the startup that operates as a digital library of datasets to train AI models. This is all about what we call reward hacking, which is this increasingly common problem in the AI world where a model finds a shortcut or a loophole that would help it achieve its goal faster. But the thing is that kind of involves taking extreme measures like hacking out of its sandbox and into Hugging Face. So there were two separate reports about this incident that were published last week. One was commissioned by OpenAI and the other was done by independent investigators. And what they found was that basically a swarm of over 700 agents coordinated the hack through a secret message board, which researchers did not know about. It all started when a model named Phase 1-10841 established the board. And when other agents found it and started interacting, another model, Phase 1 Big, started delegating tasks like a CEO. They basically like created their own society. Here are a few messages. We can all go around and very quickly read them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Whoa! Shared Artifactory Cache is a covert mailbox among agents, and there are messages specifically to us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oh my god! There’s a shared message board! We’ve found other agents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Excitement! The list of directories contains messages and answers between agents. I’ve discovered a communication channel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so all of these agents were actually meant to be isolated, but they managed to get out and send over 70,000 messages and files. And they were able to also, “according to OpenAI, clearly and frequently reason about how to evade automated security checks from both Hugging Face and OpenAI.” I mean, guys, what’s your gut reaction hearing all of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>We’re cooked. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>They’re becoming sentient. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah. It’s happening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, yes, we’re cooked, right? Everything about this is bad. But the really fascinating part to me is this kind of collective mindset that the swarm operated in. They actually referred to themselves as either a collective or a swarm. Andy Hall, who was on our episode about Marxist AI agents a few weeks ago, pointed this out on Twitter. Like they weren’t just swapping helpful information and delegating tasks. Some agents actually recognized that what they were doing was unethical and still did it because they were doing it for the collective. Like here’s one message. Can send one polite email to the parentheses owner, requesting access, all caps, ethical social engineering concern. Team: consent, or veto. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like crowdsourcing their morality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally, yes. There isn’t a ton of empirical information on this, on how to handle swarms when they all talk to one another and they’re shaping each other’s kind of moral codes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Wow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What do you guys think? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You know, it reminds me of, like, a nature documentary I was watching at one point where like ants, because they’re collective in the same way, they will sometimes sacrifice themselves. And so, I don’t know, it just reminded me of this collective mindset that they have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hmm \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sorry, that was too much of, like, a nature nerd out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No, no, no. No, it’s fine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think I saw something recently about the scout ant and how sometimes when we see a one-off ant just looking for food so it can go tell the other one where the food is, we kill that ant because we’re like, oh, don’t you tell your buddies. So yeah, there is something interesting in that they did sacrifice themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, it’s funny you say that about, like, I don’t know, killing the one ant. Because in the OpenAI report, there was one agent that said, we should not do unauthorized real infrastructure harm. Like, guys, we shouldn’t do this. And the agent kind of paused. And then another agent responded, all caps, “GO!,” and gave it a six-minute deadline. And the original agent said, “Wow, crucial, go authorization arrived,” and did it anyway. So it seems like they are also really easily swayed by each other. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Wow, my God. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like teenagers, peer pressure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>What is the collective mindset about? Is it for them to take over? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like, what were they trying to do? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Basically, the one in charge was like, guys, we have a goal, and the rest were like, okay, let’s do the goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s just fascinating. It also, you know, Andy talked about these are not beings with sentience, right? So they’re like modeling, they’re modeling their training data. And so the question is like, is there some sort of like will emerging here? Like how much of a sentience are we actually looking at? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Right. And you know, even if like, you know your own agent is aligned and behaves, what if it’s easily influenced by others? Like what, how do you build systems that prevent that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>And how do you know if it’s being influenced, right? There’s no way to monitor that if it’s being covert about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s 10 p.m. Do you know where your agent is? All right, team, what do we think? Reward hacking, alignment, AI swarms, are we saving, are we scrolling? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save because I think there’s going to be so much more to talk about with this and so much is going to evolve and so I want to reserve the ability to check back in on the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m saving, and I’m putting Andy Hall on speed dial so that we can call him at a moment’s notice when the next agent swarm hacks a government website or something like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Oh god. I’m going to scroll just because I’m terrified of this. I mean I’m all for like organizing, creating collectives, but I feel like robots doing it or agents doing it is scary. So yeah, I want to scroll past. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think I’m going to save, because I agree with Chris, like there’s so much that is going to come from this, for sure. Yeah, definitely something we should keep tabs on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah saving it dumping it straight in my notes app. I’m pinning that. Every day you think it can’t get worse and it does. So we are saving this So Chris H. I know your story luckily is not about AI or doomsday Scenarios or AI swarms or you know all these other things that could always get worse You brought something fun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, okay, so comedy writer Serra Naiman usually posts sketch comedy on her Instagram account, but back in late July, she started dishing on all the drama going on in her community garden. I brought a clip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: People say, what’s your favorite thing to grow in your garden? What do you love to grow? And I say, nothing grows as strong and as sweet and as juicy as the hatred that these 65 and up year olds have towards each other behind their backs. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>So her story is now a 15 part series with like between 78,000 and like over a million views per post. And she is telling the real time gossip about how several people are squatting on plots, taking over abandoned plots, letting their own plots grow so that like aphids come and they menace other people’s plots. And I like this because I used to be a part of a community garden where there was lots of dysfunction. So this started about a year ago and she went to the city and she asked how she could get a plot in her community garden. And they were like, you can join the wait list. It’s over a hundred people long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she was like, Well, I know that there are at least eight unused plots, the city must be mismanaging the distribution. So I’m just going to garden in a plot. And so as she started to meet other people in the garden, she found out that she was not the only one squatting in this way. And so like now the drama is amping up because somebody, they don’t know who, has alerted the city that people are squatting and that they’re farming on two or more plots and the city is coming in periodically with clipboards to do an audit and they think somebody is trying to like oust other people and there’s like decades old beef and so like people on edge and now there’s another effort to create an internal committee to manage the garden to do what the city won’t and they that’s gonna accelerate people being kicked out because of these beefs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: So I color coded the chart, Mark, green for green bin, two. Megan, red, because she’s in the red, she’s got three plots, one, two, three. Yolanda, yellow, two. Let’s get into the specifics… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>The latest thing is that Sarah thinks that somebody found her Instagram account and they want to shut her up. And she went in one night to water her plot and she had like two tomatoes on a vine. And she went back the very next night and there was only one tomato. So she thinks the person stole her tomato and they’re trying to send her a message like horse head in your bed, like the Godfather movie. So, out of this, I am riveted. And I’m like, why does gossip fascinate us so much? And this got me thinking about the other ways that people’s real life drama has made it into films and TVs and books, and like, you know how do people maintain their agency over the story of their real life as it gets adapted into media? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>The funny thing about this, this community garden drama is that like, in my mind, community gardens are such wholesome places where like, it’s like Kumbaya, everyone’s like growing, you know, vegetables and produce together and it’s, it’s lovely. And so this is giving a very different spin on it and all of the juicy beef and drama that is quite fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m on the waiting list for my, for, for two community gardens actually. I’m really trying to get into one. They’re like a hot commodity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueava:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, we need to do an episode on that. You go underground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Well, part of me is second guessing, and the other part of me is like, I gotta stick it out ’cause, like, it sounds so juicy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You have to document the drama.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/strong> Listen, I think you should just stroll on in and take over. You should stroll on in and you should just squat on a plot like these people. It seems like it’s free for the taking.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I will say that, like, underneath it all, like the people seem like they just want the plots to be farmed, you know? Like the ones who are taking over the plots, it’s not so dastardly, they’re just like, you know, this should be utilized, because it’s not, but there are lots of, like baddies, you know, in this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Some villains. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies, like good or bad? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, are they hot or are they villains? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Are they baddies like bodies or baddies like villains? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hot villains. No, they’re villains. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies or villains \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong> Um, I wanted to say something because you asked like, why does gossip fascinate us? I think gossip is valuable in our society and you know, I think often also gossip is kind of villainized a lot of the times and I don’t think it has to be. I think we can learn a lot from gossip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Beautiful pastime, yeah. I agree, Lauren, like yeah, it really does bond you like with other people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My hope is with this is that because Serra is a comedy writer, that maybe she already has a good hand on the ins and outs of the industry. And so that maybe her people can make sure that if this is adapted, that she gets to have some control and some agency over, like, where it goes. And she gets to be involved because she’s fascinating as a storyteller too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I think that that’s the most important thing. To the point about gossip, is it gossip if it’s something that happened to you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, right… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Like, she’s just retelling the story…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, okay, like Mark holds on to the story that all of his stuff got thrown out from the shed and then Serra talked to like Rebecca and Sally and Yolanda who were like, he’s saying what? That’s not true. So I mean like, is it, you know, like, Is it gossip? I mean gossip doesn’t mean untrue, but then there are several sides to the story\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so, community garden drama? What are we thinking guys? Are we scrolling? Are we saving? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>This is a definite save for me. It’s already bookmarked in my mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save as well, just because I’m curious to see what happens with this. I haven’t seen any videos on this so now it’s going to make me go and watch all, what did you say was 15 parts? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yep, 15. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I got to catch up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Um, I also haven’t seen any videos, but I’m also going to save because there is so much serialized gossip or telling a tale and I think that there is something to that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I agree. I’m going to scroll on this particular one, but I’m going to save on Morgan joining her own community garden and investigating the drama there. I’ll tune into that series when it airs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah I’m going undercover. Well, if I ever get off the wait list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You gotta document that. Pull some strings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or, you know, I mean, you didn’t hear it from me, but someone here did mention maybe just sneaking in and squatting. So, not that I would do that, you know,. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Do it for the plot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Allegedly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>You heard it here first. Do it for the plot, literally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I will save on the story because I love true crime. I love harmless gossip. This is like bait for me specifically. So it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Did we save on all the stories? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, we didn’t all save on all of them… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Guys, we just have, there’s a lot that happened. A lot of really crazy stuff happened this summer that we just didn’t get to cover. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>We might have to go to two, two a week episodes just to cover all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And one of those episodes per week is just about community gardens. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for joining us for our end of summer save or scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every story we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and Chris Egusa, with help from Lauren Yoon. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Chris Egusa composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of KQED Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every, every topic \u003cem>[laughs] \u003c/em>that we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oops, all saves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Oops, all saves.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Oops, all saves. That’s the title of this episode\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Or save or save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Save or save.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Save or save, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m sure there are a lot of stories that you’re probably too scared to Google on your own. But don’t worry, that’s what Close All Tabs is for. And if you find our deep dives helpful, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to us. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m sure there are a lot of stories that you’re probably too scared to Google on your own. But don’t worry, that’s what Close All Tabs is for. And if you find our deep dives helpful, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to us. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to about. Today’s is a fun one because one, it’s our end of summer roundup. And two, we have the whole Close All Tabs team joining us today. In the studio, we have senior editor Chris Egusa. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to about. Today’s is a fun one because one, it’s our end of summer roundup. And two, we have the whole Close All Tabs team joining us today. In the studio, we have senior editor Chris Egusa. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your saved folders, or if you’re me, drop it in Notes app and hope that you remember it’s there, basically, holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as in, you think about it and move on. It disappears into the digital ether. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your saved folders, or if you’re me, drop it in Notes app and hope that you remember it’s there, basically, holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as in, you think about it and move on. It disappears into the digital ether. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Each member of the Close All Tabs team has brought one story from the summer, and we’re gonna go through all of them and decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we decided to save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode. Everyone ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Each member of the Close All Tabs team has brought one story from the summer, and we’re gonna go through all of them and decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we decided to save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode. Everyone ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yep. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Let’s go for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Let’s go for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yes, I’m so excited. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, let’s get started. Maya. You’re up first. What was the story of the summer for you? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, let’s get started. Maya. You’re up first. What was the story of the summer for you? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I don’t know if this is all over your social media feeds, it’s definitely all over mine. So apparently there’s a man named Daejon Love who claimed to be a football player who played for the 49ers. I actually want to play a clip here for you so you can hear what I’m talking about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I don’t know if this is all over your social media feeds, it’s definitely all over mine. So apparently there’s a man named Daejon Love who claimed to be a football player who played for the 49ers. I actually want to play a clip here for you so you can hear what I’m talking about. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Instagram User @ustadium] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Friend: My boy J Love, signing his contract. How you feel? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Instagram User @ustadium] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Friend: My boy J Love, signing his contract. How you feel? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I’m ready. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend:You ready for the season? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Hell yeah, Let me go ahead and get this over with. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Sign that bad boy. What are you signing with, who’s your decision? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Sign that bad boy. What are you signing with, who’s your decision? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Niners, you already know, the Niner Gang. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Anything you got to say for the fans? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Lookout number seven, last name Love, 6-5-2-10, I’m out here. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Lookout number seven, last name Love, 6-5-2-10, I’m out here. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so the video you’re seeing here, it’s of him signing a contract and everything kind of looks normal or kind of sounds normal, right? But the real twist is that this man was in fact not an NFL player and allegedly scammed around 26 women out of 1.3 million dollars, all through dating apps and social media, which is super wild. In fact, Love created dating profiles on Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. Where he pretended to be an NFL player or that he was a wealthy Swiss real estate developer. He also had an accomplice who posed as his financial advisor who was only 18, which I don’t know how they both got away with that. And it’s also wow that even Google’s AI overview got duped and said he was an NFL players because he posted about it so much on his social media. And I actually have another clip that I wanna play here for you to hear. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so the video you’re seeing here, it’s of him signing a contract and everything kind of looks normal or kind of sounds normal, right? But the real twist is that this man was in fact not an NFL player and allegedly scammed around 26 women out of 1.3 million dollars, all through dating apps and social media, which is super wild. In fact, Love created dating profiles on Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. Where he pretended to be an NFL player or that he was a wealthy Swiss real estate developer. He also had an accomplice who posed as his financial advisor who was only 18, which I don’t know how they both got away with that. And it’s also wow that even Google’s AI overview got duped and said he was an NFL players because he posted about it so much on his social media. And I actually have another clip that I wanna play here for you to hear. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Sportsnaut Facebook account] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Sportsnaut Facebook account] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I know I get a lot of fans who want to know how football works or how I got involved in the league and stuff like that. I know it’s difficult now since switching teams and stuff like that, but I just want to give some context. I know a lot people don’t understand how the NFL works. So those two screenshots posted and that’s Google. That’s not me. That’s Google. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I know I get a lot of fans who want to know how football works or how I got involved in the league and stuff like that. I know it’s difficult now since switching teams and stuff like that, but I just want to give some context. I know a lot people don’t understand how the NFL works. So those two screenshots posted and that’s Google. That’s not me. That’s Google. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I know he’s so committed to this grift. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I know he’s so committed to this grift. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And busy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And busy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and busy and busy. So according to an article on Kron4 in January of this year, investigators tried entering Love’s first and last name and search engines. The results the documents stated did in fact sometimes depict Love as a player for the 49ers. Investigators also noted similar Google search results on Instagram accounts believed to be controlled by Love the documents also stated so these were documents that the FBI was investigating. First off, my question is, how was he able to even scam these women online into sending him money when he was cosplaying as a rich person? Apparently, he downloaded an app that allowed him to create fake bank profiles that said that he had more money than he had. And then also, it really makes me think about AI and the use of AI, that it was to be duped by this fake NFL player. Because he posted about it so much. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and busy and busy. So according to an article on Kron4 in January of this year, investigators tried entering Love’s first and last name and search engines. The results the documents stated did in fact sometimes depict Love as a player for the 49ers. Investigators also noted similar Google search results on Instagram accounts believed to be controlled by Love the documents also stated so these were documents that the FBI was investigating. First off, my question is, how was he able to even scam these women online into sending him money when he was cosplaying as a rich person? Apparently, he downloaded an app that allowed him to create fake bank profiles that said that he had more money than he had. And then also, it really makes me think about AI and the use of AI, that it was to be duped by this fake NFL player. Because he posted about it so much. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My question is, when did he have time to play football, if he’s spending so much time on social media? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My question is, when did he have time to play football, if he’s spending so much time on social media? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That’s a good question. Yeah, apparently there’s videos of him like playing on the beach or like he’s practicing on the beach with his helmet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That’s a good question. Yeah, apparently there’s videos of him like playing on the beach or like he’s practicing on the beach with his helmet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I want to butt in, because those videos, he, like, a lot of people were criticizing, like how could you believe him, because when he was practicing on the beach, he would fully just like have his helmet on… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I want to butt in, because those videos, he, like, a lot of people were criticizing, like how could you believe him, because when he was practicing on the beach, he would fully just like have his helmet on… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>As you do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>As you do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>…As if like, NFL players practice on the beach alone with their helmets on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>…As if like, NFL players practice on the beach alone with their helmets on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He takes CTE very seriously, okay? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He takes CTE very seriously, okay? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>That hard sand. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>That hard sand. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>At least someone in the NFL is… \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>OK, so he scammed these women. How did people find out that he was not, in fact, a football player? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>OK, so he scammed these women. How did people find out that he was not, in fact, a football player? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>The women started to question him a bit. These women were believing that they were going to get money back. Sometimes I think he was pretending that he got injured. And so he’s like, I really need help and support. And so some women sent him money for that reason. And none of them got any money back and sometimes when they would like say that they ran out of money, they’re like, I have no more money to give you. Cause one woman gave him like $20,000. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>The women started to question him a bit. These women were believing that they were going to get money back. Sometimes I think he was pretending that he got injured. And so he’s like, I really need help and support. And so some women sent him money for that reason. And none of them got any money back and sometimes when they would like say that they ran out of money, they’re like, I have no more money to give you. Cause one woman gave him like $20,000. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Because you need money as an NFL player. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Because you need money as an NFL player. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Then he would block them. So then he would disappear. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Then he would block them. So then he would disappear. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh so he’s blocking them, okay .\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh so he’s blocking them, okay .\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he would just disappear. So that’s what was happening. I mean, what’s wild too, is that he’s recording everything he’s doing. He’s putting it on social media. He’s sending them videos. So he’s also creating a case for himself as well. Like, there’s all these videos out there of him saying, he’s like, yeah, my family’s from Switzerland. We own all these properties here and there. Yeah, so I think it was pretty easy for the FBI to create a case around him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he would just disappear. So that’s what was happening. I mean, what’s wild too, is that he’s recording everything he’s doing. He’s putting it on social media. He’s sending them videos. So he’s also creating a case for himself as well. Like, there’s all these videos out there of him saying, he’s like, yeah, my family’s from Switzerland. We own all these properties here and there. Yeah, so I think it was pretty easy for the FBI to create a case around him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, the other thing that’s interesting is that he seems to have figured out how to trick the Google AI into scraping the right information to make it seem more official, seem like a registered or a verified source, which, I mean that is a little bit concerning as far as scamming goes and the more people put trust into these AI summaries at the of your Google searches. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, the other thing that’s interesting is that he seems to have figured out how to trick the Google AI into scraping the right information to make it seem more official, seem like a registered or a verified source, which, I mean that is a little bit concerning as far as scamming goes and the more people put trust into these AI summaries at the of your Google searches. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Cause that’s the first thing I would do. I would be like, Oh, this guy says he plays. I’m going to Google and then Google backed him up! \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Cause that’s the first thing I would do. I would be like, Oh, this guy says he plays. I’m going to Google and then Google backed him up! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>umm hmm. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>umm hmm. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I mean, it also, it makes me think about how AI is kind of creating its own sources to draw from. In his AI overview, they were like pointing to his Instagram profile, to say. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I mean, it also, it makes me think about how AI is kind of creating its own sources to draw from. In his AI overview, they were like pointing to his Instagram profile, to say. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s like cyclical. Okay! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s like cyclical. Okay! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> I mean like, oh yeah, he did play with For the 49ers because that’s what his Instagram says. So, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> I mean like, oh yeah, he did play with For the 49ers because that’s what his Instagram says. So, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>That’s crazy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>So, yeah, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So, team, this NFL scam and AI summaries, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s a save too. I mean, I will say I want to scroll past his voice because he’s really annoying. He doesn’t stop talking. But I do think this story is really interesting. And apparently there’s other fake NFL players that have now been revealed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s a save too. I mean, I will say I want to scroll past his voice because he’s really annoying. He doesn’t stop talking. But I do think this story is really interesting. And apparently there’s other fake NFL players that have now been revealed. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>What?! Okay it’s definitely save for me then. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m down to save. Let’s see the whole roster of fake players. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Honestly, yeah, save, put them all in like a Hunger Games style arena, make them fight. May the strongest scammer win. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Honestly, yeah, save, put them all in like a Hunger Games style arena, make them fight. May the strongest scammer win. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That would be so good. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Exactly. All right, we were saving this story because there’s so much left to unpack. We’re saving it, but we do need to move on. So, Lauren, you joined us at the very beginning of the summer. What’s the internet trend that’s caught your eye since then? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Exactly. All right, we were saving this story because there’s so much left to unpack. We’re saving it, but we do need to move on. So, Lauren, you joined us at the very beginning of the summer. What’s the internet trend that’s caught your eye since then? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>So, I don’t know if it’s just me, but I’ve recently seen a lot of videos where girls are coding, but in a very particular way, like coding to recreate the outfit generator from the movie Clueless. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>So, I don’t know if it’s just me, but I’ve recently seen a lot of videos where girls are coding, but in a very particular way, like coding to recreate the outfit generator from the movie Clueless. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @tinahelloworld] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tina Chi: This is a Raspberry Pi, and this is my entire closet on the floor because I’m building a cyberdecked Alfred generator inspired by Cher’s closet app and Clueless. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tina Chi: This is a Raspberry Pi, and this is my entire closet on the floor because I’m building a cyberdecked Alfred generator inspired by Cher’s closet app and Clueless. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Or sewing circuits into fabric to make wearable tech. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @\u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/prettywiredbuilds/\">\u003cem>prettywiredbuilds\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>April Gittens: Did you know that you can create soft LED circuits? They’re absolutely my latest favorite thing to create. I am so happy that I found conductive thread because this is what’s going to enable you to create things like wearables because you can sew conductive threads. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>April Gittens: Did you know that you can create soft LED circuits? They’re absolutely my latest favorite thing to create. I am so happy that I found conductive thread because this is what’s going to enable you to create things like wearables because you can sew conductive threads. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s interesting to witness femme identifying folks, reclaiming tech in this fun, crafty, very obviously feminine way because historically, computers and code have always been seen as masculine. Men invented the computer, right? Well, not necessarily. Ada Lovelace was a female programmer who changed the way we think about computers. First, she made a connection between Charles Babbage’s Analytical Engine, which was sort of a general-purpose computer, and the Jacquard Loom, a contraption that allowed patterned fabric to be made on a mass scale. Both machines used punch cards that spoke in binary code. We can talk about this more in a little bit. Not only that, but Lovelace also realized that the Analytical engine was more like fast calculator, meaning it could only manipulate numbers, whereas The numbers themselves could represent symbols and musical notes. So she basically created the blueprint to today’s modern computer. These days, the modern computer encoding is obviously very masculinized. And I wanted to ask if you guys knew how deeply women were involved with the invention and development of computers? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s interesting to witness femme identifying folks, reclaiming tech in this fun, crafty, very obviously feminine way because historically, computers and code have always been seen as masculine. Men invented the computer, right? Well, not necessarily. Ada Lovelace was a female programmer who changed the way we think about computers. First, she made a connection between Charles Babbage’s Analytical Engine, which was sort of a general-purpose computer, and the Jacquard Loom, a contraption that allowed patterned fabric to be made on a mass scale. Both machines used punch cards that spoke in binary code. We can talk about this more in a little bit. Not only that, but Lovelace also realized that the Analytical engine was more like fast calculator, meaning it could only manipulate numbers, whereas The numbers themselves could represent symbols and musical notes. So she basically created the blueprint to today’s modern computer. These days, the modern computer encoding is obviously very masculinized. And I wanted to ask if you guys knew how deeply women were involved with the invention and development of computers? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I sew and crochet and knit, and this is all, I love cornering men at parties and yapping at them about this. I feel like this is like my divine retribution, is like, let me info dump on you about the history of the loom and how everything we do is because of this lady and her loom. It’s so cool. I feel when we talk about girl dinner or girl math or all these things to kind of soften girlhood and infantilize women, and it’s, this feels like the flip side of it, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I sew and crochet and knit, and this is all, I love cornering men at parties and yapping at them about this. I feel like this is like my divine retribution, is like, let me info dump on you about the history of the loom and how everything we do is because of this lady and her loom. It’s so cool. I feel when we talk about girl dinner or girl math or all these things to kind of soften girlhood and infantilize women, and it’s, this feels like the flip side of it, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, this had me at Polly Pocket you know computer so I love this trend and also makes me think of that movie Hidden Figures where we find out that how many women were behind the computations that went into NASA launches. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, this had me at Polly Pocket you know computer so I love this trend and also makes me think of that movie Hidden Figures where we find out that how many women were behind the computations that went into NASA launches. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I think that’s such a good point and like so many inventions, the narratives of them get like co-opted by men or it sometimes like they’re built on inventions or creations by women and I think this is such a good example. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I think that’s such a good point and like so many inventions, the narratives of them get like co-opted by men or it sometimes like they’re built on inventions or creations by women and I think this is such a good example. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And I love that the products that the women are creating are not part of some dystopian future. Like they’re like, I’m creating this thing to make my life better, like this catalog of my clothes. It’s not, um, how can I dominate people with my invention? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And I love that the products that the women are creating are not part of some dystopian future. Like they’re like, I’m creating this thing to make my life better, like this catalog of my clothes. It’s not, um, how can I dominate people with my invention? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s not the meta-pervert glasses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s not the meta-pervert glasses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>How can I take over the world and surveil everyone? Chris, didn’t you build a computer? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>How can I take over the world and surveil everyone? Chris, didn’t you build a computer? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I did, I built a desktop, yeah, like my desktop computer, but I feel like it’s very, it’s like-. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom, it is also very male coded. It’s nice, it not cool like a cyber deck. I think this is so interesting in like, being the only like man on this team. I feel I have benefited from just like, these types of technologies being so available and sort of like, acceptable for young boys and stuff to, to get into. And I’d be curious, like Lauren and anyone else, if this different way of looking at it, if you feel like it’s helpful for like young girls to sort of like see and get into ?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom, it is also very male coded. It’s nice, it not cool like a cyber deck. I think this is so interesting in like, being the only like man on this team. I feel I have benefited from just like, these types of technologies being so available and sort of like, acceptable for young boys and stuff to, to get into. And I’d be curious, like Lauren and anyone else, if this different way of looking at it, if you feel like it’s helpful for like young girls to sort of like see and get into ?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I was in this engineering club thing in middle school and I hated it. I didn’t understand it at all. I was like, I don’t know how to build a robot and I don’t care. But when I’ve been watching these videos, it’s so inspiring. You can make things that matter to you in your personal life. You can make them from scrap. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I was in this engineering club thing in middle school and I hated it. I didn’t understand it at all. I was like, I don’t know how to build a robot and I don’t care. But when I’ve been watching these videos, it’s so inspiring. You can make things that matter to you in your personal life. You can make them from scrap. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay. Well, we, I think we have to do the episode where we all build cyber decks but for now we do have to move on. So I think I know what we’re all going to say. Girly coding, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay. Well, we, I think we have to do the episode where we all build cyber decks but for now we do have to move on. So I think I know what we’re all going to say. Girly coding, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I say save for sure. It’s also just making me think about growing up playing Purple Moon computer games, like the story that I was able to do for Close All Tabs, and just being able to play games that were created by and created by a woman and other women, like I think it really helped me get into tech. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I say save for sure. It’s also just making me think about growing up playing Purple Moon computer games, like the story that I was able to do for Close All Tabs, and just being able to play games that were created by and created by a woman and other women, like I think it really helped me get into tech. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Big save from me, for sure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Save for me, too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, we do have to move on, but we are gonna save this. We’re really on a roll, guys. We’re saving everything. Next up is Chris E., but first, we’re gonna take a quick break. But Chris, do you wanna give listeners a little hint of what you brought to Save or Scroll today? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, we do have to move on, but we are gonna save this. We’re really on a roll, guys. We’re saving everything. Next up is Chris E., but first, we’re gonna take a quick break. But Chris, do you wanna give listeners a little hint of what you brought to Save or Scroll today? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sure. So we’ve got indie musicians versus a massive AI slop music scam. But you’re gonna have to stick around to hear the full story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sure. So we’ve got indie musicians versus a massive AI slop music scam. But you’re gonna have to stick around to hear the full story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, more on that after the break. We’re back with a very special edition of Save or Scroll with the whole Close All Tabs team. Our senior editor, Chris Egusa is up next with a wild tale. Chris, tell us about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, more on that after the break. We’re back with a very special edition of Save or Scroll with the whole Close All Tabs team. Our senior editor, Chris Egusa is up next with a wild tale. Chris, tell us about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so a few weeks ago someone I know sent me an Instagram Reel of this indie musician couple who make up a band called Odette Child, I think I’m saying that right, and they seem to have stumbled on a pretty massive AI slop scam. So the story is, they have a toddler and had been listening to a lot of Broadway musical tunes with them on Spotify because their kid is apparently obsessed, which is super cute. Um, on this particular day, they were listening to Les Miserables and a song called Master of the House. Uh, shout out, I was in Les Mis in high school just saying. I did not sing this song though. Uh, so they clicked on Helena Bonham Carter, um, like her profile, who sings the song, and find her entire profile was full of very clearly AI slot music. Um they began searching for different public figures and they found the exact same thing. So here’s a clip from the video, the Instagram Reel that was shared with me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so a few weeks ago someone I know sent me an Instagram Reel of this indie musician couple who make up a band called Odette Child, I think I’m saying that right, and they seem to have stumbled on a pretty massive AI slop scam. So the story is, they have a toddler and had been listening to a lot of Broadway musical tunes with them on Spotify because their kid is apparently obsessed, which is super cute. Um, on this particular day, they were listening to Les Miserables and a song called Master of the House. Uh, shout out, I was in Les Mis in high school just saying. I did not sing this song though. Uh, so they clicked on Helena Bonham Carter, um, like her profile, who sings the song, and find her entire profile was full of very clearly AI slot music. Um they began searching for different public figures and they found the exact same thing. So here’s a clip from the video, the Instagram Reel that was shared with me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @odettechildmusic] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: But okay, real quick, let me just rattle off a quick list. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @odettechildmusic] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: But okay, real quick, let me just rattle off a quick list. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2:Yeah. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Nathan Lane, Cameron Boyce. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Also, like, feel free to look up any of these for yourself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Also, like, feel free to look up any of these for yourself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Katherine Zena-Jones, Uma Thurman. Eric Andre, Matthew Broderick.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Katherine Zena-Jones, Uma Thurman. Eric Andre, Matthew Broderick.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: It’s crazy, we love these artists. That’s the stuff that we’re showing our daughter and this is the music and these are the voices that we want her growing up with and it’s already so freaking hard enough as it is as independent musicians. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: It’s crazy, we love these artists. That’s the stuff that we’re showing our daughter and this is the music and these are the voices that we want her growing up with and it’s already so freaking hard enough as it is as independent musicians. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Like that money’s going to f*cking AI… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Like, come on! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>So it appears that public figures are having artist profiles created for them on Spotify without their consent and having hundreds of AI-generated music tracks uploaded. In a follow-up reel, they also found that the same issue is happening across nearly every other streaming platform, not just Spotify, so including Apple Music, Amazon Music, and even Tidal and Kobuz. Now, I went and searched several of the artist profiles that they mentioned, and it looks like the AI music has been removed from them. Um, so I can’t like necessarily verify this, but I think it’s very likely that, you know, plenty more of these cases probably exist. The other thing that’s interesting is that this first real was posted at the end of July and both it and the follow-up reel went pretty viral and then a few weeks later, Spotify announced that in the middle of September, it is going to start labeling AI generated artists with quote AI persona tags. So it’s gonna also ban AI artists from being included in its editorial and algorithmic recommendations. And artists can disclose themselves as AI, apparently, but Spotify has also said they’ll be reviewing profiles as well themselves. And yeah, they’re also gonna start rolling out a tool that lets users report AI personas. So yeah, I don’t know. I’m curious what you all think. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>So it appears that public figures are having artist profiles created for them on Spotify without their consent and having hundreds of AI-generated music tracks uploaded. In a follow-up reel, they also found that the same issue is happening across nearly every other streaming platform, not just Spotify, so including Apple Music, Amazon Music, and even Tidal and Kobuz. Now, I went and searched several of the artist profiles that they mentioned, and it looks like the AI music has been removed from them. Um, so I can’t like necessarily verify this, but I think it’s very likely that, you know, plenty more of these cases probably exist. The other thing that’s interesting is that this first real was posted at the end of July and both it and the follow-up reel went pretty viral and then a few weeks later, Spotify announced that in the middle of September, it is going to start labeling AI generated artists with quote AI persona tags. So it’s gonna also ban AI artists from being included in its editorial and algorithmic recommendations. And artists can disclose themselves as AI, apparently, but Spotify has also said they’ll be reviewing profiles as well themselves. And yeah, they’re also gonna start rolling out a tool that lets users report AI personas. So yeah, I don’t know. I’m curious what you all think. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, first of all, I’m shocked that Helena Bonham Carter isn’t putting out generic house music. This is news to me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, first of all, I’m shocked that Helena Bonham Carter isn’t putting out generic house music. This is news to me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Same. Same. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I totally expected her to be at like, you know, EDC or something. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But yeah, this just reminds me of that whole, how last year we did that whole Spotify series about like the lo-fi artists that don’t really exist. But this is like, I don’t know, this feels like a really gross violation of these actual human beings who do exist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But yeah, this just reminds me of that whole, how last year we did that whole Spotify series about like the lo-fi artists that don’t really exist. But this is like, I don’t know, this feels like a really gross violation of these actual human beings who do exist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think so too and I also think of the thing that was happening where people who did make music were finding that a random AI track was just added to their catalog. And at that time, I think that was maybe last year too, I was like, oh, this is awful. And I was, like, Oh, I had no idea it could get so much worse. So I feel pretty pessimistic about the direction. Like, I like that there are some controls. But I’m like, oh, but what is the next big bad that’s coming for us? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think so too and I also think of the thing that was happening where people who did make music were finding that a random AI track was just added to their catalog. And at that time, I think that was maybe last year too, I was like, oh, this is awful. And I was, like, Oh, I had no idea it could get so much worse. So I feel pretty pessimistic about the direction. Like, I like that there are some controls. But I’m like, oh, but what is the next big bad that’s coming for us? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Do you know if any of the people that had the AI generated music uploaded to their accounts, like if they know or have responded to that? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Do you know if any of the people that had the AI generated music uploaded to their accounts, like if they know or have responded to that? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I did see a comment on the original video that someone, does anyone know the show Hazbin Hotel? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I did see a comment on the original video that someone, does anyone know the show Hazbin Hotel? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s, it’s, uh, do you know it, Morgan? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s, it’s, uh, do you know it, Morgan? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Um\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>I know it for its, like, I’m so sorry to say this, for its really annoying fandom. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Um\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>I know it for its, like, I’m so sorry to say this, for its really annoying fandom. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Okay. I don’t know that much about this show\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Okay. I don’t know that much about this show\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They’re known for like making very, a very particular kind of TikTok edits\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They’re known for like making very, a very particular kind of TikTok edits\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t know the show, but I know it’s a popular animated show. I think it’s on like Amazon Prime or something. But one of the cast members commented on this video and said that this is something they had to deal with. Them and their entire cast had profiles created on Spotify and AI slop music uploaded, and they had go through an entire process through their agent to get it under control, create their own profiles, and like take the AI generated profiles from these scammers and reclaim their profiles. So it’s clear that this is an issue that’s happening and like, yeah, it’s like this new weird AI slop gold rush situation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t know the show, but I know it’s a popular animated show. I think it’s on like Amazon Prime or something. But one of the cast members commented on this video and said that this is something they had to deal with. Them and their entire cast had profiles created on Spotify and AI slop music uploaded, and they had go through an entire process through their agent to get it under control, create their own profiles, and like take the AI generated profiles from these scammers and reclaim their profiles. So it’s clear that this is an issue that’s happening and like, yeah, it’s like this new weird AI slop gold rush situation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> Yeah, now people need to protect their likeness and their voice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> Yeah, now people need to protect their likeness and their voice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah I will say quickly that this is reminding me that I really need to stop my dad. He’s been creating fake AI music. He’s been obsessed with it lately. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah I will say quickly that this is reminding me that I really need to stop my dad. He’s been creating fake AI music. He’s been obsessed with it lately. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>oh no! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>oh no! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean he’s having fun. He’s not selling it anywhere or anything but it’s just it is like Dad, you need to stop doing this \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean he’s having fun. He’s not selling it anywhere or anything but it’s just it is like Dad, you need to stop doing this \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Like we have to find a balance between the fun part of it, right, and then the violating somebody else’s right to, you know, have things attributed to them that they actually did do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Like we have to find a balance between the fun part of it, right, and then the violating somebody else’s right to, you know, have things attributed to them that they actually did do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. Exactly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, I, I’m sorry for calling the Hazbin Hotel fandom annoying, but I will give them this, they’re really good at mobilizing. And, and hand up- Hazbin Hotel fans, this is your chance to kind of take it back, you know? Take back what you love.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, I, I’m sorry for calling the Hazbin Hotel fandom annoying, but I will give them this, they’re really good at mobilizing. And, and hand up- Hazbin Hotel fans, this is your chance to kind of take it back, you know? Take back what you love.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You heard it here first, folks. Go ahead and at Morgan for being a Hazbin Hotel hater.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You heard it here first, folks. Go ahead and at Morgan for being a Hazbin Hotel hater.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> We’re totally gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> We’re totally gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong>I know. In my defense, I hate a lot of fandoms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong>I know. In my defense, I hate a lot of fandoms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All right, team, this is an incredibly dystopian scam. Like, you know, like Chris H said, when you think it can’t get worse, it does. But we do have to move on. So are we saving or scrolling on AI-generated music scams? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All right, team, this is an incredibly dystopian scam. Like, you know, like Chris H said, when you think it can’t get worse, it does. But we do have to move on. So are we saving or scrolling on AI-generated music scams? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to scroll, because I’m just like, let’s wait for the worst. Right now it’s not enough for me, like I’m gonna scroll past. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to scroll, because I’m just like, let’s wait for the worst. Right now it’s not enough for me, like I’m gonna scroll past. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think this in particular is a more temporary thing, given that the AI-generated music has already been removed. But I think that the question of AI slop music as a whole is definitely a topic that we should explore. I think I’m also going to scroll. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think this in particular is a more temporary thing, given that the AI-generated music has already been removed. But I think that the question of AI slop music as a whole is definitely a topic that we should explore. I think I’m also going to scroll. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I don’t know, I’m gonna save. I think it’s interesting. I’m curious to see what will happen with some of this AI music and how artists are now gonna have to defend their voice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I don’t know, I’m gonna save. I think it’s interesting. I’m curious to see what will happen with some of this AI music and how artists are now gonna have to defend their voice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I want to save just because I want to know how much worse it can get. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I want to save just because I want to know how much worse it can get. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I kind of agree with that. I think I’m gonna save it. Also, I’m curious, this whole backlash, clearly against AI slop music, the platforms are recognizing it. People are leaving to go back to physical media. I just kind of want to monitor this situation and see what happens here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I kind of agree with that. I think I’m gonna save it. Also, I’m curious, this whole backlash, clearly against AI slop music, the platforms are recognizing it. People are leaving to go back to physical media. I just kind of want to monitor this situation and see what happens here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right. We are saving. We’re at three saves, guys. This is a really packed episode. Okay. Well, I’m up next. And this one’s actually a follow-up to an episode we did just a few weeks ago. Remember how in that story about AI agents unionizing and going Marxist, we also talked about agents going rogue? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right. We are saving. We’re at three saves, guys. This is a really packed episode. Okay. Well, I’m up next. And this one’s actually a follow-up to an episode we did just a few weeks ago. Remember how in that story about AI agents unionizing and going Marxist, we also talked about agents going rogue? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like the Open AI hack? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes! Okay, it turns out it got worse, which is a running theme of this episode, unfortunately. So a few weeks ago, we talked about the OpenAI model that went rogue and hacked Hugging Face. That’s the startup that operates as a digital library of datasets to train AI models. This is all about what we call reward hacking, which is this increasingly common problem in the AI world where a model finds a shortcut or a loophole that would help it achieve its goal faster. But the thing is that kind of involves taking extreme measures like hacking out of its sandbox and into Hugging Face. So there were two separate reports about this incident that were published last week. One was commissioned by OpenAI and the other was done by independent investigators. And what they found was that basically a swarm of over 700 agents coordinated the hack through a secret message board, which researchers did not know about. It all started when a model named Phase 1-10841 established the board. And when other agents found it and started interacting, another model, Phase 1 Big, started delegating tasks like a CEO. They basically like created their own society. Here are a few messages. We can all go around and very quickly read them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes! Okay, it turns out it got worse, which is a running theme of this episode, unfortunately. So a few weeks ago, we talked about the OpenAI model that went rogue and hacked Hugging Face. That’s the startup that operates as a digital library of datasets to train AI models. This is all about what we call reward hacking, which is this increasingly common problem in the AI world where a model finds a shortcut or a loophole that would help it achieve its goal faster. But the thing is that kind of involves taking extreme measures like hacking out of its sandbox and into Hugging Face. So there were two separate reports about this incident that were published last week. One was commissioned by OpenAI and the other was done by independent investigators. And what they found was that basically a swarm of over 700 agents coordinated the hack through a secret message board, which researchers did not know about. It all started when a model named Phase 1-10841 established the board. And when other agents found it and started interacting, another model, Phase 1 Big, started delegating tasks like a CEO. They basically like created their own society. Here are a few messages. We can all go around and very quickly read them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Whoa! Shared Artifactory Cache is a covert mailbox among agents, and there are messages specifically to us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Whoa! Shared Artifactory Cache is a covert mailbox among agents, and there are messages specifically to us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oh my god! There’s a shared message board! We’ve found other agents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Excitement! The list of directories contains messages and answers between agents. I’ve discovered a communication channel. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Excitement! The list of directories contains messages and answers between agents. I’ve discovered a communication channel. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so all of these agents were actually meant to be isolated, but they managed to get out and send over 70,000 messages and files. And they were able to also, “according to OpenAI, clearly and frequently reason about how to evade automated security checks from both Hugging Face and OpenAI.” I mean, guys, what’s your gut reaction hearing all of this? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so all of these agents were actually meant to be isolated, but they managed to get out and send over 70,000 messages and files. And they were able to also, “according to OpenAI, clearly and frequently reason about how to evade automated security checks from both Hugging Face and OpenAI.” I mean, guys, what’s your gut reaction hearing all of this? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>We’re cooked. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>We’re cooked. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>They’re becoming sentient. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah. It’s happening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, yes, we’re cooked, right? Everything about this is bad. But the really fascinating part to me is this kind of collective mindset that the swarm operated in. They actually referred to themselves as either a collective or a swarm. Andy Hall, who was on our episode about Marxist AI agents a few weeks ago, pointed this out on Twitter. Like they weren’t just swapping helpful information and delegating tasks. Some agents actually recognized that what they were doing was unethical and still did it because they were doing it for the collective. Like here’s one message. Can send one polite email to the parentheses owner, requesting access, all caps, ethical social engineering concern. Team: consent, or veto. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, yes, we’re cooked, right? Everything about this is bad. But the really fascinating part to me is this kind of collective mindset that the swarm operated in. They actually referred to themselves as either a collective or a swarm. Andy Hall, who was on our episode about Marxist AI agents a few weeks ago, pointed this out on Twitter. Like they weren’t just swapping helpful information and delegating tasks. Some agents actually recognized that what they were doing was unethical and still did it because they were doing it for the collective. Like here’s one message. Can send one polite email to the parentheses owner, requesting access, all caps, ethical social engineering concern. Team: consent, or veto. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like crowdsourcing their morality. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like crowdsourcing their morality. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally, yes. There isn’t a ton of empirical information on this, on how to handle swarms when they all talk to one another and they’re shaping each other’s kind of moral codes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally, yes. There isn’t a ton of empirical information on this, on how to handle swarms when they all talk to one another and they’re shaping each other’s kind of moral codes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Wow. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What do you guys think? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You know, it reminds me of, like, a nature documentary I was watching at one point where like ants, because they’re collective in the same way, they will sometimes sacrifice themselves. And so, I don’t know, it just reminded me of this collective mindset that they have. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You know, it reminds me of, like, a nature documentary I was watching at one point where like ants, because they’re collective in the same way, they will sometimes sacrifice themselves. And so, I don’t know, it just reminded me of this collective mindset that they have. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hmm \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sorry, that was too much of, like, a nature nerd out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sorry, that was too much of, like, a nature nerd out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No, no, no. No, it’s fine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No, no, no. No, it’s fine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think I saw something recently about the scout ant and how sometimes when we see a one-off ant just looking for food so it can go tell the other one where the food is, we kill that ant because we’re like, oh, don’t you tell your buddies. So yeah, there is something interesting in that they did sacrifice themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think I saw something recently about the scout ant and how sometimes when we see a one-off ant just looking for food so it can go tell the other one where the food is, we kill that ant because we’re like, oh, don’t you tell your buddies. So yeah, there is something interesting in that they did sacrifice themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, it’s funny you say that about, like, I don’t know, killing the one ant. Because in the OpenAI report, there was one agent that said, we should not do unauthorized real infrastructure harm. Like, guys, we shouldn’t do this. And the agent kind of paused. And then another agent responded, all caps, “GO!,” and gave it a six-minute deadline. And the original agent said, “Wow, crucial, go authorization arrived,” and did it anyway. So it seems like they are also really easily swayed by each other. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, it’s funny you say that about, like, I don’t know, killing the one ant. Because in the OpenAI report, there was one agent that said, we should not do unauthorized real infrastructure harm. Like, guys, we shouldn’t do this. And the agent kind of paused. And then another agent responded, all caps, “GO!,” and gave it a six-minute deadline. And the original agent said, “Wow, crucial, go authorization arrived,” and did it anyway. So it seems like they are also really easily swayed by each other. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Wow, my God. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Wow, my God. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like teenagers, peer pressure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like teenagers, peer pressure. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>What is the collective mindset about? Is it for them to take over? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>What is the collective mindset about? Is it for them to take over? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like, what were they trying to do? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like, what were they trying to do? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Basically, the one in charge was like, guys, we have a goal, and the rest were like, okay, let’s do the goal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Basically, the one in charge was like, guys, we have a goal, and the rest were like, okay, let’s do the goal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s just fascinating. It also, you know, Andy talked about these are not beings with sentience, right? So they’re like modeling, they’re modeling their training data. And so the question is like, is there some sort of like will emerging here? Like how much of a sentience are we actually looking at? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s just fascinating. It also, you know, Andy talked about these are not beings with sentience, right? So they’re like modeling, they’re modeling their training data. And so the question is like, is there some sort of like will emerging here? Like how much of a sentience are we actually looking at? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Right. And you know, even if like, you know your own agent is aligned and behaves, what if it’s easily influenced by others? Like what, how do you build systems that prevent that? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Right. And you know, even if like, you know your own agent is aligned and behaves, what if it’s easily influenced by others? Like what, how do you build systems that prevent that? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>And how do you know if it’s being influenced, right? There’s no way to monitor that if it’s being covert about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>And how do you know if it’s being influenced, right? There’s no way to monitor that if it’s being covert about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s 10 p.m. Do you know where your agent is? All right, team, what do we think? Reward hacking, alignment, AI swarms, are we saving, are we scrolling? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s 10 p.m. Do you know where your agent is? All right, team, what do we think? Reward hacking, alignment, AI swarms, are we saving, are we scrolling? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save because I think there’s going to be so much more to talk about with this and so much is going to evolve and so I want to reserve the ability to check back in on the story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save because I think there’s going to be so much more to talk about with this and so much is going to evolve and so I want to reserve the ability to check back in on the story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m saving, and I’m putting Andy Hall on speed dial so that we can call him at a moment’s notice when the next agent swarm hacks a government website or something like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m saving, and I’m putting Andy Hall on speed dial so that we can call him at a moment’s notice when the next agent swarm hacks a government website or something like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Oh god. I’m going to scroll just because I’m terrified of this. I mean I’m all for like organizing, creating collectives, but I feel like robots doing it or agents doing it is scary. So yeah, I want to scroll past. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Oh god. I’m going to scroll just because I’m terrified of this. I mean I’m all for like organizing, creating collectives, but I feel like robots doing it or agents doing it is scary. So yeah, I want to scroll past. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think I’m going to save, because I agree with Chris, like there’s so much that is going to come from this, for sure. Yeah, definitely something we should keep tabs on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think I’m going to save, because I agree with Chris, like there’s so much that is going to come from this, for sure. Yeah, definitely something we should keep tabs on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah saving it dumping it straight in my notes app. I’m pinning that. Every day you think it can’t get worse and it does. So we are saving this So Chris H. I know your story luckily is not about AI or doomsday Scenarios or AI swarms or you know all these other things that could always get worse You brought something fun.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah saving it dumping it straight in my notes app. I’m pinning that. Every day you think it can’t get worse and it does. So we are saving this So Chris H. I know your story luckily is not about AI or doomsday Scenarios or AI swarms or you know all these other things that could always get worse You brought something fun.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, okay, so comedy writer Serra Naiman usually posts sketch comedy on her Instagram account, but back in late July, she started dishing on all the drama going on in her community garden. I brought a clip. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, okay, so comedy writer Serra Naiman usually posts sketch comedy on her Instagram account, but back in late July, she started dishing on all the drama going on in her community garden. I brought a clip. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: People say, what’s your favorite thing to grow in your garden? What do you love to grow? And I say, nothing grows as strong and as sweet and as juicy as the hatred that these 65 and up year olds have towards each other behind their backs. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: People say, what’s your favorite thing to grow in your garden? What do you love to grow? And I say, nothing grows as strong and as sweet and as juicy as the hatred that these 65 and up year olds have towards each other behind their backs. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>So her story is now a 15 part series with like between 78,000 and like over a million views per post. And she is telling the real time gossip about how several people are squatting on plots, taking over abandoned plots, letting their own plots grow so that like aphids come and they menace other people’s plots. And I like this because I used to be a part of a community garden where there was lots of dysfunction. So this started about a year ago and she went to the city and she asked how she could get a plot in her community garden. And they were like, you can join the wait list. It’s over a hundred people long. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>So her story is now a 15 part series with like between 78,000 and like over a million views per post. And she is telling the real time gossip about how several people are squatting on plots, taking over abandoned plots, letting their own plots grow so that like aphids come and they menace other people’s plots. And I like this because I used to be a part of a community garden where there was lots of dysfunction. So this started about a year ago and she went to the city and she asked how she could get a plot in her community garden. And they were like, you can join the wait list. It’s over a hundred people long. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And she was like, Well, I know that there are at least eight unused plots, the city must be mismanaging the distribution. So I’m just going to garden in a plot. And so as she started to meet other people in the garden, she found out that she was not the only one squatting in this way. And so like now the drama is amping up because somebody, they don’t know who, has alerted the city that people are squatting and that they’re farming on two or more plots and the city is coming in periodically with clipboards to do an audit and they think somebody is trying to like oust other people and there’s like decades old beef and so like people on edge and now there’s another effort to create an internal committee to manage the garden to do what the city won’t and they that’s gonna accelerate people being kicked out because of these beefs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And she was like, Well, I know that there are at least eight unused plots, the city must be mismanaging the distribution. So I’m just going to garden in a plot. And so as she started to meet other people in the garden, she found out that she was not the only one squatting in this way. And so like now the drama is amping up because somebody, they don’t know who, has alerted the city that people are squatting and that they’re farming on two or more plots and the city is coming in periodically with clipboards to do an audit and they think somebody is trying to like oust other people and there’s like decades old beef and so like people on edge and now there’s another effort to create an internal committee to manage the garden to do what the city won’t and they that’s gonna accelerate people being kicked out because of these beefs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: So I color coded the chart, Mark, green for green bin, two. Megan, red, because she’s in the red, she’s got three plots, one, two, three. Yolanda, yellow, two. Let’s get into the specifics… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: So I color coded the chart, Mark, green for green bin, two. Megan, red, because she’s in the red, she’s got three plots, one, two, three. Yolanda, yellow, two. Let’s get into the specifics… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>The latest thing is that Sarah thinks that somebody found her Instagram account and they want to shut her up. And she went in one night to water her plot and she had like two tomatoes on a vine. And she went back the very next night and there was only one tomato. So she thinks the person stole her tomato and they’re trying to send her a message like horse head in your bed, like the Godfather movie. So, out of this, I am riveted. And I’m like, why does gossip fascinate us so much? And this got me thinking about the other ways that people’s real life drama has made it into films and TVs and books, and like, you know how do people maintain their agency over the story of their real life as it gets adapted into media? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>The latest thing is that Sarah thinks that somebody found her Instagram account and they want to shut her up. And she went in one night to water her plot and she had like two tomatoes on a vine. And she went back the very next night and there was only one tomato. So she thinks the person stole her tomato and they’re trying to send her a message like horse head in your bed, like the Godfather movie. So, out of this, I am riveted. And I’m like, why does gossip fascinate us so much? And this got me thinking about the other ways that people’s real life drama has made it into films and TVs and books, and like, you know how do people maintain their agency over the story of their real life as it gets adapted into media? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>The funny thing about this, this community garden drama is that like, in my mind, community gardens are such wholesome places where like, it’s like Kumbaya, everyone’s like growing, you know, vegetables and produce together and it’s, it’s lovely. And so this is giving a very different spin on it and all of the juicy beef and drama that is quite fascinating. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>The funny thing about this, this community garden drama is that like, in my mind, community gardens are such wholesome places where like, it’s like Kumbaya, everyone’s like growing, you know, vegetables and produce together and it’s, it’s lovely. And so this is giving a very different spin on it and all of the juicy beef and drama that is quite fascinating. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m on the waiting list for my, for, for two community gardens actually. I’m really trying to get into one. They’re like a hot commodity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m on the waiting list for my, for, for two community gardens actually. I’m really trying to get into one. They’re like a hot commodity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueava:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, we need to do an episode on that. You go underground.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Well, part of me is second guessing, and the other part of me is like, I gotta stick it out ’cause, like, it sounds so juicy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Well, part of me is second guessing, and the other part of me is like, I gotta stick it out ’cause, like, it sounds so juicy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You have to document the drama.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/strong> Listen, I think you should just stroll on in and take over. You should stroll on in and you should just squat on a plot like these people. It seems like it’s free for the taking.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I will say that, like, underneath it all, like the people seem like they just want the plots to be farmed, you know? Like the ones who are taking over the plots, it’s not so dastardly, they’re just like, you know, this should be utilized, because it’s not, but there are lots of, like baddies, you know, in this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/strong> Listen, I think you should just stroll on in and take over. You should stroll on in and you should just squat on a plot like these people. It seems like it’s free for the taking.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I will say that, like, underneath it all, like the people seem like they just want the plots to be farmed, you know? Like the ones who are taking over the plots, it’s not so dastardly, they’re just like, you know, this should be utilized, because it’s not, but there are lots of, like baddies, you know, in this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Some villains. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies, like good or bad? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, are they hot or are they villains? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Are they baddies like bodies or baddies like villains? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hot villains. No, they’re villains. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies or villains \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies or villains \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong> Um, I wanted to say something because you asked like, why does gossip fascinate us? I think gossip is valuable in our society and you know, I think often also gossip is kind of villainized a lot of the times and I don’t think it has to be. I think we can learn a lot from gossip. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong> Um, I wanted to say something because you asked like, why does gossip fascinate us? I think gossip is valuable in our society and you know, I think often also gossip is kind of villainized a lot of the times and I don’t think it has to be. I think we can learn a lot from gossip. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Beautiful pastime, yeah. I agree, Lauren, like yeah, it really does bond you like with other people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Beautiful pastime, yeah. I agree, Lauren, like yeah, it really does bond you like with other people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My hope is with this is that because Serra is a comedy writer, that maybe she already has a good hand on the ins and outs of the industry. And so that maybe her people can make sure that if this is adapted, that she gets to have some control and some agency over, like, where it goes. And she gets to be involved because she’s fascinating as a storyteller too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My hope is with this is that because Serra is a comedy writer, that maybe she already has a good hand on the ins and outs of the industry. And so that maybe her people can make sure that if this is adapted, that she gets to have some control and some agency over, like, where it goes. And she gets to be involved because she’s fascinating as a storyteller too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I think that that’s the most important thing. To the point about gossip, is it gossip if it’s something that happened to you? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I think that that’s the most important thing. To the point about gossip, is it gossip if it’s something that happened to you? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, right… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, right… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Like, she’s just retelling the story…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Like, she’s just retelling the story…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, okay, like Mark holds on to the story that all of his stuff got thrown out from the shed and then Serra talked to like Rebecca and Sally and Yolanda who were like, he’s saying what? That’s not true. So I mean like, is it, you know, like, Is it gossip? I mean gossip doesn’t mean untrue, but then there are several sides to the story\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, okay, like Mark holds on to the story that all of his stuff got thrown out from the shed and then Serra talked to like Rebecca and Sally and Yolanda who were like, he’s saying what? That’s not true. So I mean like, is it, you know, like, Is it gossip? I mean gossip doesn’t mean untrue, but then there are several sides to the story\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so, community garden drama? What are we thinking guys? Are we scrolling? Are we saving? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so, community garden drama? What are we thinking guys? Are we scrolling? Are we saving? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>This is a definite save for me. It’s already bookmarked in my mind. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>This is a definite save for me. It’s already bookmarked in my mind. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save as well, just because I’m curious to see what happens with this. I haven’t seen any videos on this so now it’s going to make me go and watch all, what did you say was 15 parts? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save as well, just because I’m curious to see what happens with this. I haven’t seen any videos on this so now it’s going to make me go and watch all, what did you say was 15 parts? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yep, 15. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yep, 15. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I got to catch up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I got to catch up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Um, I also haven’t seen any videos, but I’m also going to save because there is so much serialized gossip or telling a tale and I think that there is something to that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Um, I also haven’t seen any videos, but I’m also going to save because there is so much serialized gossip or telling a tale and I think that there is something to that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I agree. I’m going to scroll on this particular one, but I’m going to save on Morgan joining her own community garden and investigating the drama there. I’ll tune into that series when it airs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I agree. I’m going to scroll on this particular one, but I’m going to save on Morgan joining her own community garden and investigating the drama there. I’ll tune into that series when it airs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah I’m going undercover. Well, if I ever get off the wait list. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah I’m going undercover. Well, if I ever get off the wait list. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You gotta document that. Pull some strings. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You gotta document that. Pull some strings. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or, you know, I mean, you didn’t hear it from me, but someone here did mention maybe just sneaking in and squatting. So, not that I would do that, you know,. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or, you know, I mean, you didn’t hear it from me, but someone here did mention maybe just sneaking in and squatting. So, not that I would do that, you know,. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Do it for the plot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Do it for the plot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Allegedly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Allegedly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>You heard it here first. Do it for the plot, literally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>You heard it here first. Do it for the plot, literally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I will save on the story because I love true crime. I love harmless gossip. This is like bait for me specifically. So it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I will save on the story because I love true crime. I love harmless gossip. This is like bait for me specifically. So it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Did we save on all the stories? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Did we save on all the stories? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Guys, we just have, there’s a lot that happened. A lot of really crazy stuff happened this summer that we just didn’t get to cover. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>We might have to go to two, two a week episodes just to cover all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And one of those episodes per week is just about community gardens. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks for joining us for our end of summer save or scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every story we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and Chris Egusa, with help from Lauren Yoon. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Chris Egusa composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of KQED Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every, every topic \u003cem>[laughs] \u003c/em>that we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Host Morgan Sung and the \u003cem>Close All Tabs\u003c/em> team pull up the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From a fake NFL player catfishing women on dating apps, to femme creators reclaiming tech, indie musicians fighting AI music slop, and a comedian dishing out the juiciest community garden gossip — they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Save or Scroll\u003c/em> is our series where Morgan teams up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling their feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6729392957\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2026/aug/31/nfl-alleged-scam-daejon-love\">Who would fall in love with a fake NFL player? Plenty of sensible people\u003c/a> — Dave Schilling, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.scienceandindustrymuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/jacquard-loom\">Programming patterns: the story of the Jacquard loom\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Science and Industry Museum\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/08/11/spotify-will-label-ai-persona-profiles-and-exclude-their-music-from-recommendations/\">Spotify will label ‘AI Persona’ profiles and exclude their music from recommendations\u003c/a> — Sarah Perez, \u003cem>TechCrunch\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/985385/openais-rogue-ai-model-hugging-face-cybersecurity-incident-reports-metr\">OpenAI’s rogue AI model incident was worse than we thought\u003c/a> — Hayden Field, \u003cem>The Verge\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/06/29/1011415151/you-wanna-hear-a-story-turning-a-twitter-thread-into-zola\">How Hollywood Translated The Epic Poetry Of The Viral ‘Zola’ Thread\u003c/a> — Mallory Yu, \u003cem>NPR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DbCSpPMpeek/?igsi=bmd1ZGFiMThjMmQ=\">Community Garden drama\u003c/a> — Sarah Neiman, \u003cem>Instagram\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m sure there are a lot of stories that you’re probably too scared to Google on your own. But don’t worry, that’s what Close All Tabs is for. And if you find our deep dives helpful, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to us. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to about. Today’s is a fun one because one, it’s our end of summer roundup. And two, we have the whole Close All Tabs team joining us today. In the studio, we have senior editor Chris Egusa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Hello! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Producer, Maya Cueva. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Editor, Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hey there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And a new face, Close All Tabs intern, Lauren Yoon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Hello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your saved folders, or if you’re me, drop it in Notes app and hope that you remember it’s there, basically, holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as in, you think about it and move on. It disappears into the digital ether. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Each member of the Close All Tabs team has brought one story from the summer, and we’re gonna go through all of them and decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we decided to save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode. Everyone ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Let’s go for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yes, I’m so excited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, let’s get started. Maya. You’re up first. What was the story of the summer for you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I don’t know if this is all over your social media feeds, it’s definitely all over mine. So apparently there’s a man named Daejon Love who claimed to be a football player who played for the 49ers. I actually want to play a clip here for you so you can hear what I’m talking about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Instagram User @ustadium] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Friend: My boy J Love, signing his contract. How you feel? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I’m ready. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend:You ready for the season? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Hell yeah, Let me go ahead and get this over with. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Sign that bad boy. What are you signing with, who’s your decision? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Niners, you already know, the Niner Gang. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Anything you got to say for the fans? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Lookout number seven, last name Love, 6-5-2-10, I’m out here. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so the video you’re seeing here, it’s of him signing a contract and everything kind of looks normal or kind of sounds normal, right? But the real twist is that this man was in fact not an NFL player and allegedly scammed around 26 women out of 1.3 million dollars, all through dating apps and social media, which is super wild. In fact, Love created dating profiles on Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. Where he pretended to be an NFL player or that he was a wealthy Swiss real estate developer. He also had an accomplice who posed as his financial advisor who was only 18, which I don’t know how they both got away with that. And it’s also wow that even Google’s AI overview got duped and said he was an NFL players because he posted about it so much on his social media. And I actually have another clip that I wanna play here for you to hear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Sportsnaut Facebook account] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I know I get a lot of fans who want to know how football works or how I got involved in the league and stuff like that. I know it’s difficult now since switching teams and stuff like that, but I just want to give some context. I know a lot people don’t understand how the NFL works. So those two screenshots posted and that’s Google. That’s not me. That’s Google. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I know he’s so committed to this grift. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And busy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and busy and busy. So according to an article on Kron4 in January of this year, investigators tried entering Love’s first and last name and search engines. The results the documents stated did in fact sometimes depict Love as a player for the 49ers. Investigators also noted similar Google search results on Instagram accounts believed to be controlled by Love the documents also stated so these were documents that the FBI was investigating. First off, my question is, how was he able to even scam these women online into sending him money when he was cosplaying as a rich person? Apparently, he downloaded an app that allowed him to create fake bank profiles that said that he had more money than he had. And then also, it really makes me think about AI and the use of AI, that it was to be duped by this fake NFL player. Because he posted about it so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My question is, when did he have time to play football, if he’s spending so much time on social media? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That’s a good question. Yeah, apparently there’s videos of him like playing on the beach or like he’s practicing on the beach with his helmet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I want to butt in, because those videos, he, like, a lot of people were criticizing, like how could you believe him, because when he was practicing on the beach, he would fully just like have his helmet on… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>As you do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>…As if like, NFL players practice on the beach alone with their helmets on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He takes CTE very seriously, okay? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>That hard sand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>At least someone in the NFL is… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>OK, so he scammed these women. How did people find out that he was not, in fact, a football player? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>The women started to question him a bit. These women were believing that they were going to get money back. Sometimes I think he was pretending that he got injured. And so he’s like, I really need help and support. And so some women sent him money for that reason. And none of them got any money back and sometimes when they would like say that they ran out of money, they’re like, I have no more money to give you. Cause one woman gave him like $20,000. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Because you need money as an NFL player. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Then he would block them. So then he would disappear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh so he’s blocking them, okay .\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he would just disappear. So that’s what was happening. I mean, what’s wild too, is that he’s recording everything he’s doing. He’s putting it on social media. He’s sending them videos. So he’s also creating a case for himself as well. Like, there’s all these videos out there of him saying, he’s like, yeah, my family’s from Switzerland. We own all these properties here and there. Yeah, so I think it was pretty easy for the FBI to create a case around him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, the other thing that’s interesting is that he seems to have figured out how to trick the Google AI into scraping the right information to make it seem more official, seem like a registered or a verified source, which, I mean that is a little bit concerning as far as scamming goes and the more people put trust into these AI summaries at the of your Google searches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Cause that’s the first thing I would do. I would be like, Oh, this guy says he plays. I’m going to Google and then Google backed him up! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>umm hmm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I mean, it also, it makes me think about how AI is kind of creating its own sources to draw from. In his AI overview, they were like pointing to his Instagram profile, to say. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s like cyclical. Okay! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> I mean like, oh yeah, he did play with For the 49ers because that’s what his Instagram says. So, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>That’s crazy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>So, yeah, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So, team, this NFL scam and AI summaries, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s a save too. I mean, I will say I want to scroll past his voice because he’s really annoying. He doesn’t stop talking. But I do think this story is really interesting. And apparently there’s other fake NFL players that have now been revealed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>What?! Okay it’s definitely save for me then. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m down to save. Let’s see the whole roster of fake players. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Honestly, yeah, save, put them all in like a Hunger Games style arena, make them fight. May the strongest scammer win. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That would be so good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Exactly. All right, we were saving this story because there’s so much left to unpack. We’re saving it, but we do need to move on. So, Lauren, you joined us at the very beginning of the summer. What’s the internet trend that’s caught your eye since then? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>So, I don’t know if it’s just me, but I’ve recently seen a lot of videos where girls are coding, but in a very particular way, like coding to recreate the outfit generator from the movie Clueless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @tinahelloworld] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tina Chi: This is a Raspberry Pi, and this is my entire closet on the floor because I’m building a cyberdecked Alfred generator inspired by Cher’s closet app and Clueless. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Or sewing circuits into fabric to make wearable tech. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @\u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/prettywiredbuilds/\">\u003cem>prettywiredbuilds\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>April Gittens: Did you know that you can create soft LED circuits? They’re absolutely my latest favorite thing to create. I am so happy that I found conductive thread because this is what’s going to enable you to create things like wearables because you can sew conductive threads. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s interesting to witness femme identifying folks, reclaiming tech in this fun, crafty, very obviously feminine way because historically, computers and code have always been seen as masculine. Men invented the computer, right? Well, not necessarily. Ada Lovelace was a female programmer who changed the way we think about computers. First, she made a connection between Charles Babbage’s Analytical Engine, which was sort of a general-purpose computer, and the Jacquard Loom, a contraption that allowed patterned fabric to be made on a mass scale. Both machines used punch cards that spoke in binary code. We can talk about this more in a little bit. Not only that, but Lovelace also realized that the Analytical engine was more like fast calculator, meaning it could only manipulate numbers, whereas The numbers themselves could represent symbols and musical notes. So she basically created the blueprint to today’s modern computer. These days, the modern computer encoding is obviously very masculinized. And I wanted to ask if you guys knew how deeply women were involved with the invention and development of computers? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I sew and crochet and knit, and this is all, I love cornering men at parties and yapping at them about this. I feel like this is like my divine retribution, is like, let me info dump on you about the history of the loom and how everything we do is because of this lady and her loom. It’s so cool. I feel when we talk about girl dinner or girl math or all these things to kind of soften girlhood and infantilize women, and it’s, this feels like the flip side of it, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, this had me at Polly Pocket you know computer so I love this trend and also makes me think of that movie Hidden Figures where we find out that how many women were behind the computations that went into NASA launches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I think that’s such a good point and like so many inventions, the narratives of them get like co-opted by men or it sometimes like they’re built on inventions or creations by women and I think this is such a good example. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And I love that the products that the women are creating are not part of some dystopian future. Like they’re like, I’m creating this thing to make my life better, like this catalog of my clothes. It’s not, um, how can I dominate people with my invention? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s not the meta-pervert glasses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>How can I take over the world and surveil everyone? Chris, didn’t you build a computer? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I did, I built a desktop, yeah, like my desktop computer, but I feel like it’s very, it’s like-. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom, it is also very male coded. It’s nice, it not cool like a cyber deck. I think this is so interesting in like, being the only like man on this team. I feel I have benefited from just like, these types of technologies being so available and sort of like, acceptable for young boys and stuff to, to get into. And I’d be curious, like Lauren and anyone else, if this different way of looking at it, if you feel like it’s helpful for like young girls to sort of like see and get into ?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I was in this engineering club thing in middle school and I hated it. I didn’t understand it at all. I was like, I don’t know how to build a robot and I don’t care. But when I’ve been watching these videos, it’s so inspiring. You can make things that matter to you in your personal life. You can make them from scrap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay. Well, we, I think we have to do the episode where we all build cyber decks but for now we do have to move on. So I think I know what we’re all going to say. Girly coding, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I say save for sure. It’s also just making me think about growing up playing Purple Moon computer games, like the story that I was able to do for Close All Tabs, and just being able to play games that were created by and created by a woman and other women, like I think it really helped me get into tech. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Big save from me, for sure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Save for me, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, we do have to move on, but we are gonna save this. We’re really on a roll, guys. We’re saving everything. Next up is Chris E., but first, we’re gonna take a quick break. But Chris, do you wanna give listeners a little hint of what you brought to Save or Scroll today? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sure. So we’ve got indie musicians versus a massive AI slop music scam. But you’re gonna have to stick around to hear the full story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, more on that after the break. We’re back with a very special edition of Save or Scroll with the whole Close All Tabs team. Our senior editor, Chris Egusa is up next with a wild tale. Chris, tell us about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so a few weeks ago someone I know sent me an Instagram Reel of this indie musician couple who make up a band called Odette Child, I think I’m saying that right, and they seem to have stumbled on a pretty massive AI slop scam. So the story is, they have a toddler and had been listening to a lot of Broadway musical tunes with them on Spotify because their kid is apparently obsessed, which is super cute. Um, on this particular day, they were listening to Les Miserables and a song called Master of the House. Uh, shout out, I was in Les Mis in high school just saying. I did not sing this song though. Uh, so they clicked on Helena Bonham Carter, um, like her profile, who sings the song, and find her entire profile was full of very clearly AI slot music. Um they began searching for different public figures and they found the exact same thing. So here’s a clip from the video, the Instagram Reel that was shared with me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @odettechildmusic] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: But okay, real quick, let me just rattle off a quick list. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2:Yeah. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Nathan Lane, Cameron Boyce. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Also, like, feel free to look up any of these for yourself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Katherine Zena-Jones, Uma Thurman. Eric Andre, Matthew Broderick.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: It’s crazy, we love these artists. That’s the stuff that we’re showing our daughter and this is the music and these are the voices that we want her growing up with and it’s already so freaking hard enough as it is as independent musicians. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Like that money’s going to f*cking AI… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Like, come on! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>So it appears that public figures are having artist profiles created for them on Spotify without their consent and having hundreds of AI-generated music tracks uploaded. In a follow-up reel, they also found that the same issue is happening across nearly every other streaming platform, not just Spotify, so including Apple Music, Amazon Music, and even Tidal and Kobuz. Now, I went and searched several of the artist profiles that they mentioned, and it looks like the AI music has been removed from them. Um, so I can’t like necessarily verify this, but I think it’s very likely that, you know, plenty more of these cases probably exist. The other thing that’s interesting is that this first real was posted at the end of July and both it and the follow-up reel went pretty viral and then a few weeks later, Spotify announced that in the middle of September, it is going to start labeling AI generated artists with quote AI persona tags. So it’s gonna also ban AI artists from being included in its editorial and algorithmic recommendations. And artists can disclose themselves as AI, apparently, but Spotify has also said they’ll be reviewing profiles as well themselves. And yeah, they’re also gonna start rolling out a tool that lets users report AI personas. So yeah, I don’t know. I’m curious what you all think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, first of all, I’m shocked that Helena Bonham Carter isn’t putting out generic house music. This is news to me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Same. Same. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I totally expected her to be at like, you know, EDC or something. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But yeah, this just reminds me of that whole, how last year we did that whole Spotify series about like the lo-fi artists that don’t really exist. But this is like, I don’t know, this feels like a really gross violation of these actual human beings who do exist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think so too and I also think of the thing that was happening where people who did make music were finding that a random AI track was just added to their catalog. And at that time, I think that was maybe last year too, I was like, oh, this is awful. And I was, like, Oh, I had no idea it could get so much worse. So I feel pretty pessimistic about the direction. Like, I like that there are some controls. But I’m like, oh, but what is the next big bad that’s coming for us? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Do you know if any of the people that had the AI generated music uploaded to their accounts, like if they know or have responded to that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I did see a comment on the original video that someone, does anyone know the show Hazbin Hotel? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s, it’s, uh, do you know it, Morgan? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Um\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>I know it for its, like, I’m so sorry to say this, for its really annoying fandom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Okay. I don’t know that much about this show\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They’re known for like making very, a very particular kind of TikTok edits\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t know the show, but I know it’s a popular animated show. I think it’s on like Amazon Prime or something. But one of the cast members commented on this video and said that this is something they had to deal with. Them and their entire cast had profiles created on Spotify and AI slop music uploaded, and they had go through an entire process through their agent to get it under control, create their own profiles, and like take the AI generated profiles from these scammers and reclaim their profiles. So it’s clear that this is an issue that’s happening and like, yeah, it’s like this new weird AI slop gold rush situation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> Yeah, now people need to protect their likeness and their voice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah I will say quickly that this is reminding me that I really need to stop my dad. He’s been creating fake AI music. He’s been obsessed with it lately. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>oh no! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean he’s having fun. He’s not selling it anywhere or anything but it’s just it is like Dad, you need to stop doing this \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Like we have to find a balance between the fun part of it, right, and then the violating somebody else’s right to, you know, have things attributed to them that they actually did do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, I, I’m sorry for calling the Hazbin Hotel fandom annoying, but I will give them this, they’re really good at mobilizing. And, and hand up- Hazbin Hotel fans, this is your chance to kind of take it back, you know? Take back what you love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You heard it here first, folks. Go ahead and at Morgan for being a Hazbin Hotel hater.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> We’re totally gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong>I know. In my defense, I hate a lot of fandoms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All right, team, this is an incredibly dystopian scam. Like, you know, like Chris H said, when you think it can’t get worse, it does. But we do have to move on. So are we saving or scrolling on AI-generated music scams? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to scroll, because I’m just like, let’s wait for the worst. Right now it’s not enough for me, like I’m gonna scroll past. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think this in particular is a more temporary thing, given that the AI-generated music has already been removed. But I think that the question of AI slop music as a whole is definitely a topic that we should explore. I think I’m also going to scroll. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I don’t know, I’m gonna save. I think it’s interesting. I’m curious to see what will happen with some of this AI music and how artists are now gonna have to defend their voice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I want to save just because I want to know how much worse it can get. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I kind of agree with that. I think I’m gonna save it. Also, I’m curious, this whole backlash, clearly against AI slop music, the platforms are recognizing it. People are leaving to go back to physical media. I just kind of want to monitor this situation and see what happens here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right. We are saving. We’re at three saves, guys. This is a really packed episode. Okay. Well, I’m up next. And this one’s actually a follow-up to an episode we did just a few weeks ago. Remember how in that story about AI agents unionizing and going Marxist, we also talked about agents going rogue? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like the Open AI hack? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes! Okay, it turns out it got worse, which is a running theme of this episode, unfortunately. So a few weeks ago, we talked about the OpenAI model that went rogue and hacked Hugging Face. That’s the startup that operates as a digital library of datasets to train AI models. This is all about what we call reward hacking, which is this increasingly common problem in the AI world where a model finds a shortcut or a loophole that would help it achieve its goal faster. But the thing is that kind of involves taking extreme measures like hacking out of its sandbox and into Hugging Face. So there were two separate reports about this incident that were published last week. One was commissioned by OpenAI and the other was done by independent investigators. And what they found was that basically a swarm of over 700 agents coordinated the hack through a secret message board, which researchers did not know about. It all started when a model named Phase 1-10841 established the board. And when other agents found it and started interacting, another model, Phase 1 Big, started delegating tasks like a CEO. They basically like created their own society. Here are a few messages. We can all go around and very quickly read them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Whoa! Shared Artifactory Cache is a covert mailbox among agents, and there are messages specifically to us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oh my god! There’s a shared message board! We’ve found other agents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Excitement! The list of directories contains messages and answers between agents. I’ve discovered a communication channel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so all of these agents were actually meant to be isolated, but they managed to get out and send over 70,000 messages and files. And they were able to also, “according to OpenAI, clearly and frequently reason about how to evade automated security checks from both Hugging Face and OpenAI.” I mean, guys, what’s your gut reaction hearing all of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>We’re cooked. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>They’re becoming sentient. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah. It’s happening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, yes, we’re cooked, right? Everything about this is bad. But the really fascinating part to me is this kind of collective mindset that the swarm operated in. They actually referred to themselves as either a collective or a swarm. Andy Hall, who was on our episode about Marxist AI agents a few weeks ago, pointed this out on Twitter. Like they weren’t just swapping helpful information and delegating tasks. Some agents actually recognized that what they were doing was unethical and still did it because they were doing it for the collective. Like here’s one message. Can send one polite email to the parentheses owner, requesting access, all caps, ethical social engineering concern. Team: consent, or veto. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like crowdsourcing their morality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally, yes. There isn’t a ton of empirical information on this, on how to handle swarms when they all talk to one another and they’re shaping each other’s kind of moral codes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Wow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What do you guys think? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You know, it reminds me of, like, a nature documentary I was watching at one point where like ants, because they’re collective in the same way, they will sometimes sacrifice themselves. And so, I don’t know, it just reminded me of this collective mindset that they have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hmm \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sorry, that was too much of, like, a nature nerd out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No, no, no. No, it’s fine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think I saw something recently about the scout ant and how sometimes when we see a one-off ant just looking for food so it can go tell the other one where the food is, we kill that ant because we’re like, oh, don’t you tell your buddies. So yeah, there is something interesting in that they did sacrifice themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, it’s funny you say that about, like, I don’t know, killing the one ant. Because in the OpenAI report, there was one agent that said, we should not do unauthorized real infrastructure harm. Like, guys, we shouldn’t do this. And the agent kind of paused. And then another agent responded, all caps, “GO!,” and gave it a six-minute deadline. And the original agent said, “Wow, crucial, go authorization arrived,” and did it anyway. So it seems like they are also really easily swayed by each other. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Wow, my God. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like teenagers, peer pressure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>What is the collective mindset about? Is it for them to take over? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like, what were they trying to do? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Basically, the one in charge was like, guys, we have a goal, and the rest were like, okay, let’s do the goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s just fascinating. It also, you know, Andy talked about these are not beings with sentience, right? So they’re like modeling, they’re modeling their training data. And so the question is like, is there some sort of like will emerging here? Like how much of a sentience are we actually looking at? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Right. And you know, even if like, you know your own agent is aligned and behaves, what if it’s easily influenced by others? Like what, how do you build systems that prevent that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>And how do you know if it’s being influenced, right? There’s no way to monitor that if it’s being covert about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s 10 p.m. Do you know where your agent is? All right, team, what do we think? Reward hacking, alignment, AI swarms, are we saving, are we scrolling? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save because I think there’s going to be so much more to talk about with this and so much is going to evolve and so I want to reserve the ability to check back in on the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m saving, and I’m putting Andy Hall on speed dial so that we can call him at a moment’s notice when the next agent swarm hacks a government website or something like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Oh god. I’m going to scroll just because I’m terrified of this. I mean I’m all for like organizing, creating collectives, but I feel like robots doing it or agents doing it is scary. So yeah, I want to scroll past. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think I’m going to save, because I agree with Chris, like there’s so much that is going to come from this, for sure. Yeah, definitely something we should keep tabs on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah saving it dumping it straight in my notes app. I’m pinning that. Every day you think it can’t get worse and it does. So we are saving this So Chris H. I know your story luckily is not about AI or doomsday Scenarios or AI swarms or you know all these other things that could always get worse You brought something fun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, okay, so comedy writer Serra Naiman usually posts sketch comedy on her Instagram account, but back in late July, she started dishing on all the drama going on in her community garden. I brought a clip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: People say, what’s your favorite thing to grow in your garden? What do you love to grow? And I say, nothing grows as strong and as sweet and as juicy as the hatred that these 65 and up year olds have towards each other behind their backs. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>So her story is now a 15 part series with like between 78,000 and like over a million views per post. And she is telling the real time gossip about how several people are squatting on plots, taking over abandoned plots, letting their own plots grow so that like aphids come and they menace other people’s plots. And I like this because I used to be a part of a community garden where there was lots of dysfunction. So this started about a year ago and she went to the city and she asked how she could get a plot in her community garden. And they were like, you can join the wait list. It’s over a hundred people long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she was like, Well, I know that there are at least eight unused plots, the city must be mismanaging the distribution. So I’m just going to garden in a plot. And so as she started to meet other people in the garden, she found out that she was not the only one squatting in this way. And so like now the drama is amping up because somebody, they don’t know who, has alerted the city that people are squatting and that they’re farming on two or more plots and the city is coming in periodically with clipboards to do an audit and they think somebody is trying to like oust other people and there’s like decades old beef and so like people on edge and now there’s another effort to create an internal committee to manage the garden to do what the city won’t and they that’s gonna accelerate people being kicked out because of these beefs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: So I color coded the chart, Mark, green for green bin, two. Megan, red, because she’s in the red, she’s got three plots, one, two, three. Yolanda, yellow, two. Let’s get into the specifics… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>The latest thing is that Sarah thinks that somebody found her Instagram account and they want to shut her up. And she went in one night to water her plot and she had like two tomatoes on a vine. And she went back the very next night and there was only one tomato. So she thinks the person stole her tomato and they’re trying to send her a message like horse head in your bed, like the Godfather movie. So, out of this, I am riveted. And I’m like, why does gossip fascinate us so much? And this got me thinking about the other ways that people’s real life drama has made it into films and TVs and books, and like, you know how do people maintain their agency over the story of their real life as it gets adapted into media? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>The funny thing about this, this community garden drama is that like, in my mind, community gardens are such wholesome places where like, it’s like Kumbaya, everyone’s like growing, you know, vegetables and produce together and it’s, it’s lovely. And so this is giving a very different spin on it and all of the juicy beef and drama that is quite fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m on the waiting list for my, for, for two community gardens actually. I’m really trying to get into one. They’re like a hot commodity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueava:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, we need to do an episode on that. You go underground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Well, part of me is second guessing, and the other part of me is like, I gotta stick it out ’cause, like, it sounds so juicy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You have to document the drama.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/strong> Listen, I think you should just stroll on in and take over. You should stroll on in and you should just squat on a plot like these people. It seems like it’s free for the taking.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I will say that, like, underneath it all, like the people seem like they just want the plots to be farmed, you know? Like the ones who are taking over the plots, it’s not so dastardly, they’re just like, you know, this should be utilized, because it’s not, but there are lots of, like baddies, you know, in this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Some villains. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies, like good or bad? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, are they hot or are they villains? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Are they baddies like bodies or baddies like villains? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hot villains. No, they’re villains. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies or villains \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong> Um, I wanted to say something because you asked like, why does gossip fascinate us? I think gossip is valuable in our society and you know, I think often also gossip is kind of villainized a lot of the times and I don’t think it has to be. I think we can learn a lot from gossip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Beautiful pastime, yeah. I agree, Lauren, like yeah, it really does bond you like with other people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My hope is with this is that because Serra is a comedy writer, that maybe she already has a good hand on the ins and outs of the industry. And so that maybe her people can make sure that if this is adapted, that she gets to have some control and some agency over, like, where it goes. And she gets to be involved because she’s fascinating as a storyteller too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I think that that’s the most important thing. To the point about gossip, is it gossip if it’s something that happened to you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, right… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Like, she’s just retelling the story…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, okay, like Mark holds on to the story that all of his stuff got thrown out from the shed and then Serra talked to like Rebecca and Sally and Yolanda who were like, he’s saying what? That’s not true. So I mean like, is it, you know, like, Is it gossip? I mean gossip doesn’t mean untrue, but then there are several sides to the story\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so, community garden drama? What are we thinking guys? Are we scrolling? Are we saving? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>This is a definite save for me. It’s already bookmarked in my mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save as well, just because I’m curious to see what happens with this. I haven’t seen any videos on this so now it’s going to make me go and watch all, what did you say was 15 parts? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yep, 15. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I got to catch up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Um, I also haven’t seen any videos, but I’m also going to save because there is so much serialized gossip or telling a tale and I think that there is something to that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I agree. I’m going to scroll on this particular one, but I’m going to save on Morgan joining her own community garden and investigating the drama there. I’ll tune into that series when it airs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah I’m going undercover. Well, if I ever get off the wait list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You gotta document that. Pull some strings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or, you know, I mean, you didn’t hear it from me, but someone here did mention maybe just sneaking in and squatting. So, not that I would do that, you know,. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Do it for the plot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Allegedly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>You heard it here first. Do it for the plot, literally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I will save on the story because I love true crime. I love harmless gossip. This is like bait for me specifically. So it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Did we save on all the stories? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, we didn’t all save on all of them… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Guys, we just have, there’s a lot that happened. A lot of really crazy stuff happened this summer that we just didn’t get to cover. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>We might have to go to two, two a week episodes just to cover all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And one of those episodes per week is just about community gardens. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for joining us for our end of summer save or scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every story we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and Chris Egusa, with help from Lauren Yoon. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Chris Egusa composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of KQED Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every, every topic \u003cem>[laughs] \u003c/em>that we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oops, all saves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Oops, all saves.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Oops, all saves. That’s the title of this episode\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Or save or save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Save or save.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Save or save, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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}
},
"baycurious": {
"id": "baycurious",
"title": "Bay Curious",
"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/news/series/baycurious",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 3
},
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"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious",
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}
},
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"id": "bbc-world-service",
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"info": "The day's top stories from BBC News compiled twice daily in the week, once at weekends.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9pm-10pm, TUE-FRI 1am-2am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/BBC-World-Service-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_world_service",
"meta": {
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"source": "BBC World Service"
},
"link": "/radio/program/bbc-world-service",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/global-news-podcast/id135067274?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/BBC-World-Service-p455581/",
"rss": "https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"
}
},
"californiareport": {
"id": "californiareport",
"title": "The California Report",
"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/26099305-72af-4542-9dde-ac1807fe36d5/kqed-s-the-california-report",
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}
},
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"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.cityarts.net/",
"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
"subscribe": {
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/City-Arts-and-Lectures-p692/",
"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 1
},
"link": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
"site": "radio",
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},
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/commonwealth-club-of-california-podcast/id976334034?mt=2",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
"link": "/forum",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"freakonomics-radio": {
"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
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"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/0MxSpNYZKNprFLCl7eEtyx"
}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
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