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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For three weeks, all eyes were on a salacious courtroom drama unfolding in Oakland, California. The Musk v. Altman trial had everything you’d expect from a favorite soap opera: Backstabbing? Check! Secret diary entries? Check! Pleading text messages? Check! And two billionaire buddies turned rivals duking it out over who did or did not steal a charity. Morgan and KQED’s Rachael Myrow explore the trial highlights, outcome and the big question: what was it all for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1712425236\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, senior editor, Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084062/federal-court-rules-against-elon-musk-in-his-bitter-feud-with-sam-altman\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Federal Court Rules Against Elon Musk in His Bitter Feud With Sam Altman\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katie DeBenedetti and Rachael Myrow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/fancy-butt-pillows-musk-v-altman-trial/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone at the Musk v. Altman Trial Is Using Fancy Butt Cushions\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Paresh Dave, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/932464/musk-v-altman-proved-that-ai-is-led-by-the-wrong-people\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk v. Altman proved that AI is led by the wrong people\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Hayden Field, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/04/13/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman May Control Our Future—Can He Be Trusted?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/05/20/nx-s1-5822419/ai-colleges-commencement-booing\">Advice for 2026 commencement speakers: Don’t bring up AI\u003c/a> — Jude Joffe-Block and Michelle Aslam, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello Tabbers! Tabbies? Tabhive? We’re workshopping this. Ok? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyway, if you’re in the Close All Tabs fandom, and you want more of these deep dives, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to this! Post about it! Follow us on Instagram! Tag us! Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tech world has been buzzing over one of the juiciest legal showdowns in Silicon Valley: Musk v. Altman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, Elon Musk, of Tesla and Twitter infamy, accused OpenAI, the company behind ChatGPT, and its leadership of betraying the company’s nonprofit roots. He alleged that instead of sticking to the original mission, which was to build safe artificial general intelligence for the benefit of all of humanity, the company chased profits over AI safety. He says they “stole a charity.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the other side: Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI who co-founded the company with Musk. Once upon a time, they were actually buddies. But today? They’re bitter rivals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For three weeks, tech billionaires, their legal counsel, their personal security guards, and a throng of journalists packed into a courtroom in Oakland, California. This was a real “who’s who” of the AI industry. The six billionaires who took the stand have a collective net worth of around $850 billion dollars. That’s more than the GDP of most countries. And what did the uber wealthy bring for a long day at court? The hottest accessory in downtown Oakland: Fancy butt cushions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Record scratch]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, I have to admit, I was not looking, uh, anywhere in the vicinity of their butts, so I did not see these butt cushions, uh, that I read about in Wired. But, um, I, I did see some more, you know, sober, uh, sensible butt cushions that the lawyers were using.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rachael Myrow, she’s the Silicon Valley tech editor at KQED, and she covered the case, trekking out for the grueling 12 days of trial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I really should have come up with one of my own because we were in that court, courtroom from 8am in the morning to 2 in the afternoon most days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This trial was one of the courtroom dramas of the decade. Rachael said it was like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Silicon Valley\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the HBO show, meets a telenovela. Before it even started, Musk got so catty online that the judge threatened him with a gag order.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He went on X on the eve of the trial, popping off about Scam Altman until Judge Gonzalez Rogers dressed him down in front of the court.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just the start of this gossip feast. We’re talking backstabbing! Personal diary entries read aloud! Secret affairs! Over 20 witnesses airing out everyone’s dirty laundry. And after all of that, the jury sided with OpenAI. So does this count as a crushing blow to Elon Musk?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Musk operates like President Trump. He sues for all sorts of reasons, and he also counts a win differently than normal people would count a win.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he doesn’t need to win in the courtroom to win in other ways. Because nobody walked out of this trial looking great, especially not Sam Altman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The historical record now shows a group of extraordinarily entitled people, mostly men, scrambling to be the tip of the spear for the AI revolution. Uh, I think the benefit of humanity never had anything to do with it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, nobody really won here. We’re going to get into that and open a few tabs about the trial, the drama leading up to it, the great billionaire AI industry reckoning and what this really means for the rest of us plebeians. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let’s open our first tab: Sam Altman, Elon Musk relationship timeline \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">K-dramas, telenovelas, any CW show, pick your poison. At its core, this scenario is a soap opera classic. Two besties have a falling out, struggle for power, and forgetting what they once meant to each other become embroiled in a years-long feud, hell bent on taking the other down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know if they ever were friends. But also I wouldn’t say that they were frenemies, and again, this is just from my experience of the trial, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, maybe that was a little bit of fanfiction. But we can’t write off their tech bromance entirely. After all, during the trial, Altman testified under oath that Musk used to show him memes on his phone. That’s pretty intimate, if you ask me. And years before that, they were two very rich guys who shared a dream.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Elon Musk in particular, uh, was very worried about the thought that artificial general intelligence, which is to say AI that surpasses human intelligence, uh, could, uh, come to the hands of one powerful player first, and then they would have, I don’t know, world domination within their grasp. So he got together with Sam Altman of Y Combinator fame or infamy, however you see it, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Y Combinator is the startup accelerator that launched Reddit, Airbnb, DoorDash, Dropbox, Stripe, Coinbase, the list goes on. Sam Altman was part of the inaugural cohort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the two of them cooked up this nonprofit with a charitable mission. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They launched OpenAI in 2015, as a nonprofit artificial intelligence research company. In the first blog post, the company wrote: “Our goal is to advance digital intelligence in the way that is most likely to benefit humanity as a whole, unconstrained by a need to generate financial return. Since our research is free from financial obligations, we can better focus on a positive human impact.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it doesn’t take long before they realize that if this is gonna be a thing, if this is gonna compete with Google, and whoever else might come along they were gonna need way more money than they were pulling in at the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Elon Musk was spending millions, but they were probably gonna need billions. They started talking about setting up a for-profit division. And it wasn’t long before they realized in this conversation, collectively, that Elon wanted to be in charge of it, in control of it. And you can tell this because, you know, mounds of discovery, personal texts and email chains and personal journal entries made it abundantly clear that Musk was thinking close to the beginning like, ‘I know what I’ll do. We’ll fold this new this for-profit version of OpenAI into Tesla, where I can work on AGI in secret.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Sam Altman and the other OpenAI principal co-founders weren’t down for that. Musk walked away in 2018. OpenAI launched ChatGPT in 2022. A year later, Musk announced his own AI startup, xAI, which eventually launched Grok. Musk has boasted about how Grok is not trained to be “woke”, unlike competitors like ChatGPT. OpenAI, meanwhile, has become the belle of the Silicon Valley ball, nabbing billions of dollars of investment from Microsoft. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And at a certain point, it becomes clear that the OpenAI nonprofit is really a shell of its former self. Right? Like, it’s all of the IP, all of the intellectual property has shifted, uh, from the nonprofit to the for-profit, all of the talent…I think it was kind of sitting there employee-free until very recently, and money was put into it. It’s now estimated to be worth about 200 billion, with a B, dollars. But what has this nonprofit been up to? Precious little. Precious little. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so at some point, Musk decides to sue and to say, ‘Wait a second, you know, um, this is a bait and switch…they’ve abandoned the mission that we cooked up originally and, I want recompense. I want Altman and others, stripped from the board, stripped from their leadership positions. I want, something like $150 billion shifted from the for-profit to the nonprofit.’ But of course, if you’re OpenAI, your attitude is like, ‘Whoa, this is clearly vindictive.’ You know, you didn’t get what you want, that’s why you walked away with your toys and your money, and, uh, you know, we’re gonna see you in court.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This legal showdown has been simmering for years. Between filing in early 2024 and finally walking into the courtroom for his testimony last month, Musk has: filed a motion accusing OpenAI and Microsoft of being a monopoly, led a group of investors in an attempt to buy OpenAI, threatened to sue Apple for giving OpenAI preferential treatment in the App Store, and has gotten into multiple online spats with Altman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was 100% clear there’s no love lost, uh, between you know, the principals. You know, what I like to say is, like, nobody has clean hands in this situation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what exactly happened at this trial? Let’s open another new tab: Musk v. Altman \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On one side you’ve got Elon Musk. You know, he didn’t come to be the wealthiest person on Earth by accident, right? Uh, even if he may not have been the person to start many of the companies he now owns and controls, uh, he took them into the stratosphere, quite literally in the case of SpaceX.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s very good at doing that, but he’s also well known to be mercurial, to have a kind of Jekyll and Hyde personality, to push other people to the breaking point.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, um, he’s gonna make decisions that, uh, he doesn’t expect to be countermanded on in the slightest. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you have somebody like Sam Altman, and, uh, I’ll tell you, it wasn’t any accident that The New Yorker came out with a scandalous profile of Sam Altman on the eve of the trial that basically, uh, described him as a compulsive pathological liar, and all of that came out in the trial too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let’s go through a few highlights from this trial. It got pretty juicy when Shivon Zillis took the stand. She’s a venture capitalist and machine learning expert who started working at OpenAI when it launched, and later joined the board of directors. She’s also the mother of four of Musk’s fourteen children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In her testimony, she said that their relationship started with a “one-off” at a corporate off-site. When she decided to start a family on her own, Musk offered to be her platonic sperm donor. Their relationship grew, and now, they’re romantic partners. She told the OpenAI board about her relationship with Musk only after Business Insider started reporting on it. According to other testimony, many board members wanted to remove her, but decided to let her stay to, “keep the Elon conflict under control.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think for many people who are not familiar with Silicon Valley shenanigans, going back decades, not, this is not new to AI, um, it’s not just neutral characters on the board. It’s a very insular world. It’s on the level of incest, I would say. And so I, for one, was not shocked to discover that Elon Musk had a, again, like a consigliere on the board making decisions. She seemed to be there in many ways, um, serving as a go-between, between Sam and Elon, helping to smooth over conversations, helping to, to help them reach points of agreement when that was possible, and at the very least, have clarity on what the other side was thinking when that was not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something else that also g- kind of struck me about not just Zelis’s testimony, but also the other women who had roles in this period of time at OpenAI that was under discussion, is how much even the smartest women were only number twos, number threes, ancillary characters in a drama that starred men. This is all about men, primarily white men, with a tremendous sense of entitlement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are these salacious journal entries. So, Greg Brockman is the president of OpenAI, and today, he has a 30 billion dollar stake in the company. But he wasn’t always so ludicrously wealthy. During the trial, pages of his personal diary from nearly 10 years ago were read out loud. And what he wrote seems to bolster Musk’s argument that they were all in it for the money, not necessarily for the good of humanity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Word to the wise, be aware that if you get sued, they’re gonna come looking for this stuff. You know? Like, when he’s, when he’s writing to himself, “What will take me to $1 billion?” it was pretty clear that it sounded like he was interested in becoming rich. You have a guy who was personally ambitious. Um, is that illegal? I don’t know if it’s illegal. It certainly didn’t look good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The funny thing here about Zelis, and it’s kind of in parallel to, to Brockman, is that, you know, Zelis was taking notes. And also a lot of Zelis’ emails and texts document how early Musk knew that people were talking about a, uh, a for-profit, that Musk himself was talking about a for-profit form of OpenAI. So this kind of ate away at the argument that he was shocked, shocked to discover that self-enrichment had become such a powerful motivator for his colleagues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Another standout from the trial: texts between Sam Altman and former OpenAI CTO Mira Murati from the night that the OpenAI board voted to fire Altman as CEO. He was reinstated after over 90% of OpenAI employees threatened to quit and work for Microsoft. That in between time period is known as “The Blip.” And the exchanges from the night it started were read in court, and have since gone viral — immediately embedded in the lexicon of internet reaction memes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael and I are going to do a dramatic reading of the texts \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I wanna be Mira. Or wait a moment. No, I wanna be Sam. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You wanna be Sam? Okay. Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you indicate directionally good or bad? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Directionally very bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can I come in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t want you to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you want to make it better? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m still willing to just walk away if that helps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they are ramped up for crazy lawsuits against me, then I’m not sure what… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you please tell them I just wanna resolve this however, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and would like to join?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re convinced about their decision.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For me to be fired or some new thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, for you to be gone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Then can I come in and talk about a path forward with them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you ask why they’ve been saying all weekend they wanted me back?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Still don’t want me? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t want you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, these read, these read like the kinds of texts that you would send during a really brutal breakup, like when you’re like, ‘Oh, my friend sees my ex in, in public. Can you please go talk to them?’ You know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do they reveal about the power struggle at OpenAI though?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was an attempted coup, essentially, precisely because of Sam Altman’s, uh, alleged managerial misbehavior, pitting different people against each other with different stories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another OpenAI board member, Helen Toner, shed light on this in her deposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Helen Toner basically said that Altman lied about what kind of safety reviews were done about, uh, models of ChatGPT that were released, that he ultimately cleared for release, and which, you know, she could say really wasn’t about AI safety, It was about this, you know, lack of trust in the communication. Microsoft, uh, CEO Satya Nadella, at one point he characterized the entire blip as amateur hour. Uh, these naive board members thinking that they could, you know, hold Sam Altman accountable, uh, for, for lying to them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, Brockman and Altman were both throwing around some pretty wild accusations about why Musk really wanted control of OpenAI. Um, Brockman said that he wanted to raise massive amounts of money to build a colony on Mars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, Sam Altman claimed that Musk was planning to pass OpenAI down to his children when he died, like succession style. But I mean, everyone’s dirty laundry was aired out in that courtroom. Like, no one came out with clean hands, including Sam Altman. So what did the witnesses say about him and his character? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my goodness. There were so many people who described him as a liar to the extent that when finally he was directly questioned about being a liar, uh, and he didn’t answer the question directly, it just made him look more like a liar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were so many people who talked about his lack of, uh, trustworthiness. Sam Altman on the witness stand for hours being asked why he’s such a big liar. His former chief scientist, his former chief technology officer, two former board members, all testifying under oath that Altman exhibited a consistent pattern of dishonesty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is now in the public record forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">all of these guys come off as self-serving and, and, uh, backstabbing and oily. I wouldn’t wanna meet any of them in a dark alley or on the other side of a business deal. You know, like, they’re obviously not out for the benefit of humanity. But then we knew that. Didn’t we know that? I think we knew that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After all that, mountains of evidence, hours of testimony, brutal days spent on those cold, hard, unforgiving courtroom benches, unless you had a fancy butt cushion, the ending of this trial was kind of anticlimactic. It took the jury just two hours to come to a unanimous decision. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The jury decided that Musk simply waited too long to sue. California has statutes of limitations. So you can’t just sit on your claims forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in the end nothing happened! But that doesn’t mean the trial was for nothing. What’s the real outcome here? What did this courtroom drama really reveal? After the break, a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Ok, after the break? We’re leaving the courtroom, and going back to the real world. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re back! Let’s open one last tab: Musk v. Altman outcome.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the jury rejected Musk’s case this week. But it’s important to note that they didn’t make that decision based on the legal merit of his case, just that it was too late for Musk to pursue it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the jury found that Musk knew or should have known what was happening at OpenAI by 2020 at the latest. He filed in 2024. He argued in court, you know, that that’s because it wasn’t that he was opposed to any kind of for-profit division. He just didn’t want one that dominated the nonprofit. And that didn’t become clear to him until 2023. So he wanted to essentially start the clock on the statue of limitations later on in the game\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But OpenAI argued and the judge essentially agreed that Musk needed to have made the case soon after what he saw happening at OpenAI by 2020 at the latest. So all three claims, breach of charitable trust, unjust enrichment, Microsoft aiding and abetting, are gone because of the statute of limitations thing, not because they decided on the merits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hours after the verdict came out, Elon Musk responded in the most Elon Musk possible way, which is he took it to Twitter, uh, sorry, X, to complain. Um, he did a classic tweet and delete. So the first tweet he said, first post, “This illustrates why the ruling by the terrible activist Oakland judge, who simply used the jury as a fig leaf, creates such a terrible precedent. She just handed a free license to loot charities if you can keep the looting quiet for a few years.” And then deleted that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then followed up, “Regarding the OpenAI case, the judge and jury never actually ruled on the merits of the case just on a calendar technicality. There is no question to anyone following the case in detail that Altman and Brockman did in fact enrich themselves by stealing a charity. The only question is when they did it.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did this response surprise you at all?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not in the slightest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now that she makes clear she agrees with the jury, Musk posted ‘she’s a terrible activist Oakland judge who handed out a free license to loot charities.’ Musk is just not sympathetic. Um, but I’m thinking, like President Trump, it wasn’t necessarily important to Musk to win the case, just to file it, to drag Altman through the mud in a very public way ahead of these two IPOs. If what you what is revenge, that’s not nothing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This trial did a number on Sam Altman’s public image. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It certainly revealed a lot of the circular business deals he was involved in. He may have recused himself from the actual votes with some of these companies but he nonetheless profited from them or could profit in the near future. I think this was a habit he picked up at Y Combinator. Anyway, it was laid bare in the courtroom. I think it put another nail in the coffin. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there were protesters outside the courthouse with some very funny signs up. And they poked the most fun at Musk, but they also poked a lot of fun at Sam Altman. You know, it’s Sam Altman’s house that got a Molotov cocktail thrown at it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like, I think there is a great deal of public discontent, even rage over the rollout of AI into all of our lives. And, you know, this train got rolling out of the station through OpenAI, through ChatGPT, uh, and, you know, it was off to the races for a bunch of companies. But there at the forefront, at least in the beginning, was OpenAI, and Sam Altman is the face of OpenAI. And so this trial and all the mountains of evidence just confirm for people their opinions of Sam Altman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, if there’s a fan club somebody’s gotta send me a T-shirt to prove it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of Silicon Valley tends to operate in a kind of bubble, disconnected from the public’s growing discontent around AI. Students are graduating into increasingly unstable careers, thanks to companies pushing to replace human workers with AI, regardless of whether AI can do the jobs better. Nothing shows that disconnect quite like the reaction to commencement speakers who tried to praise AI to a room full of new graduates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from University of Central Florida Graduation] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Crowd: Boos \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: Woo! What happened? Ok, I struck a chord! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple commencement speakers across the country have tried to proselytize AI this month and they were booed each time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This rejection is not unfounded. While covering the trial, Rachael spoke to one of the protesters outside of the courthouse. Her name is Valerie. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valerie Sizemore:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to be a software engineer, but, um, have been unemployed by AI, so now I’m trying to make the resistance happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this trial, um, these two CEOs are fighting over a piece of a pie that, uh, doesn’t really matter for the world. They’re just trying to make themselves richer, but we’re all gonna lose regardless of who wins.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI titans, and they are titans now, keep mistaking public resistance for ignorance. Somebody like Valerie isn’t failing to understand the wonders of AI. She’s recognizing that the costs like higher power bills, strained electrical grids, her job disappearing on, her career disappearing on her. Right? A technology class that treats the question of public consent as an annoying inconvenience. I guess what I’m getting at here, Morgan, is that we’re not talking about a PR problem. We’re talking about class warfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was a battle between two billionaires. The trial revolved around this core question: Is OpenAI’s commitment to the benefit of humanity real? Or, is the company’s commitment really to chasing profits at the expense of AI safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was supposed to be the trial of the century ended without answers or accountability. And by ruling on timing instead of the actual merits of the case, the trial also failed to establish any legal precedent for AI governance and guardrails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s not gonna do a damn thing to stop this nightmare. Right? Obviously there’s gonna be an appeal from Musk’s attorneys. Who knows what’ll happen there? But you know, both Musk with his SpaceX IPO and Altman with his OpenAI IPO, they’re just gonna go forward as before. The AI rollout will go on as before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who knows if we’ll ever get artificial general intelligence per se? I don’t think it matters. I mean, the changes that have been happening have been happening without artificial general intelligence. They’re, they’re disruptive enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How do you think this case will impact future AI cases?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OpenAI is a strange creature. It started as a nonprofit, maybe because Musk and Altman intuitively knew that, uh, they had a better chance of raising money at that time if they presented it as for the good of humanity as opposed to, you know, just a chance to get in on this gold rush.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? And, and it must be said, and you know, many of the OpenAI principals said it many times that in the beginning, in the first few years of OpenAI, it was not clear at all it was gonna succeed, right? Google seemed to have such a head start and such a well-capitalized head start. So, you know, OpenAI has only become fabulously valued, um, in recent years, and it, it’s still not making money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To go back to, you know, like what, what precedent does this set for Silicon Valley? I don’t know that it sets any precedent because who in their right mind would start something like OpenAI again in that way? You would set up a startup like any other group of entrepreneurs and take your chances with that setup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this theater ended with no real answers, no real accountability, and no real change for the AI industry overall. So then was the point of taking this case to court in the first place? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The judge put tight, and I mean tight brackets around what this case was going to be about at trial, which raises the question for me, why did she take this case in the first place?Why did she give Elon Musk standing if he had unclean hands? He was a rival. He was a competitor in the AI space. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that Gonzalez Rogers wanted these guys on both sides to be forced to peel back the curtain on how AI came to dominate the world in the way that it does now. And maybe the judge couldn’t give us accountability, but she could give us visibility, and that’s not nothing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another upside: all those juicy, salacious details that were once just gossip fodder, that’s public record now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there any legal precedent here? I think maybe the point was the theater.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for this episode, but stick around after the credits. Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry profile PBT keycaps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow: Steve Molo, uh, the Musk’s attorney: “Have you misled people with whom you do business?” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman “I do not think so.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Molo says, “Would they think so?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Altman says, “I can’t answer that.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo says, “You’ve repeatedly been called a liar by people with whom you’ve done business.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I have heard people say that.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo: “Are you completely trustworthy?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I believe so.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo: “You don’t know?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I’ll just amend my answer to yes.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "KQED’s Rachael Myrow explains the courtroom theatrics of the Musk v. Altman trial.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For three weeks, all eyes were on a salacious courtroom drama unfolding in Oakland, California. The Musk v. Altman trial had everything you’d expect from a favorite soap opera: Backstabbing? Check! Secret diary entries? Check! Pleading text messages? Check! And two billionaire buddies turned rivals duking it out over who did or did not steal a charity. Morgan and KQED’s Rachael Myrow explore the trial highlights, outcome and the big question: what was it all for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1712425236\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, senior editor, Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084062/federal-court-rules-against-elon-musk-in-his-bitter-feud-with-sam-altman\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Federal Court Rules Against Elon Musk in His Bitter Feud With Sam Altman\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katie DeBenedetti and Rachael Myrow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/fancy-butt-pillows-musk-v-altman-trial/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone at the Musk v. Altman Trial Is Using Fancy Butt Cushions\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Paresh Dave, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/932464/musk-v-altman-proved-that-ai-is-led-by-the-wrong-people\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk v. Altman proved that AI is led by the wrong people\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Hayden Field, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/04/13/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman May Control Our Future—Can He Be Trusted?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/05/20/nx-s1-5822419/ai-colleges-commencement-booing\">Advice for 2026 commencement speakers: Don’t bring up AI\u003c/a> — Jude Joffe-Block and Michelle Aslam, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello Tabbers! Tabbies? Tabhive? We’re workshopping this. Ok? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyway, if you’re in the Close All Tabs fandom, and you want more of these deep dives, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to this! Post about it! Follow us on Instagram! Tag us! Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tech world has been buzzing over one of the juiciest legal showdowns in Silicon Valley: Musk v. Altman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, Elon Musk, of Tesla and Twitter infamy, accused OpenAI, the company behind ChatGPT, and its leadership of betraying the company’s nonprofit roots. He alleged that instead of sticking to the original mission, which was to build safe artificial general intelligence for the benefit of all of humanity, the company chased profits over AI safety. He says they “stole a charity.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the other side: Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI who co-founded the company with Musk. Once upon a time, they were actually buddies. But today? They’re bitter rivals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For three weeks, tech billionaires, their legal counsel, their personal security guards, and a throng of journalists packed into a courtroom in Oakland, California. This was a real “who’s who” of the AI industry. The six billionaires who took the stand have a collective net worth of around $850 billion dollars. That’s more than the GDP of most countries. And what did the uber wealthy bring for a long day at court? The hottest accessory in downtown Oakland: Fancy butt cushions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Record scratch]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, I have to admit, I was not looking, uh, anywhere in the vicinity of their butts, so I did not see these butt cushions, uh, that I read about in Wired. But, um, I, I did see some more, you know, sober, uh, sensible butt cushions that the lawyers were using.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rachael Myrow, she’s the Silicon Valley tech editor at KQED, and she covered the case, trekking out for the grueling 12 days of trial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I really should have come up with one of my own because we were in that court, courtroom from 8am in the morning to 2 in the afternoon most days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This trial was one of the courtroom dramas of the decade. Rachael said it was like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Silicon Valley\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the HBO show, meets a telenovela. Before it even started, Musk got so catty online that the judge threatened him with a gag order.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He went on X on the eve of the trial, popping off about Scam Altman until Judge Gonzalez Rogers dressed him down in front of the court.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just the start of this gossip feast. We’re talking backstabbing! Personal diary entries read aloud! Secret affairs! Over 20 witnesses airing out everyone’s dirty laundry. And after all of that, the jury sided with OpenAI. So does this count as a crushing blow to Elon Musk?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Musk operates like President Trump. He sues for all sorts of reasons, and he also counts a win differently than normal people would count a win.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he doesn’t need to win in the courtroom to win in other ways. Because nobody walked out of this trial looking great, especially not Sam Altman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The historical record now shows a group of extraordinarily entitled people, mostly men, scrambling to be the tip of the spear for the AI revolution. Uh, I think the benefit of humanity never had anything to do with it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, nobody really won here. We’re going to get into that and open a few tabs about the trial, the drama leading up to it, the great billionaire AI industry reckoning and what this really means for the rest of us plebeians. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let’s open our first tab: Sam Altman, Elon Musk relationship timeline \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">K-dramas, telenovelas, any CW show, pick your poison. At its core, this scenario is a soap opera classic. Two besties have a falling out, struggle for power, and forgetting what they once meant to each other become embroiled in a years-long feud, hell bent on taking the other down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know if they ever were friends. But also I wouldn’t say that they were frenemies, and again, this is just from my experience of the trial, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, maybe that was a little bit of fanfiction. But we can’t write off their tech bromance entirely. After all, during the trial, Altman testified under oath that Musk used to show him memes on his phone. That’s pretty intimate, if you ask me. And years before that, they were two very rich guys who shared a dream.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Elon Musk in particular, uh, was very worried about the thought that artificial general intelligence, which is to say AI that surpasses human intelligence, uh, could, uh, come to the hands of one powerful player first, and then they would have, I don’t know, world domination within their grasp. So he got together with Sam Altman of Y Combinator fame or infamy, however you see it, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Y Combinator is the startup accelerator that launched Reddit, Airbnb, DoorDash, Dropbox, Stripe, Coinbase, the list goes on. Sam Altman was part of the inaugural cohort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the two of them cooked up this nonprofit with a charitable mission. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They launched OpenAI in 2015, as a nonprofit artificial intelligence research company. In the first blog post, the company wrote: “Our goal is to advance digital intelligence in the way that is most likely to benefit humanity as a whole, unconstrained by a need to generate financial return. Since our research is free from financial obligations, we can better focus on a positive human impact.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it doesn’t take long before they realize that if this is gonna be a thing, if this is gonna compete with Google, and whoever else might come along they were gonna need way more money than they were pulling in at the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Elon Musk was spending millions, but they were probably gonna need billions. They started talking about setting up a for-profit division. And it wasn’t long before they realized in this conversation, collectively, that Elon wanted to be in charge of it, in control of it. And you can tell this because, you know, mounds of discovery, personal texts and email chains and personal journal entries made it abundantly clear that Musk was thinking close to the beginning like, ‘I know what I’ll do. We’ll fold this new this for-profit version of OpenAI into Tesla, where I can work on AGI in secret.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Sam Altman and the other OpenAI principal co-founders weren’t down for that. Musk walked away in 2018. OpenAI launched ChatGPT in 2022. A year later, Musk announced his own AI startup, xAI, which eventually launched Grok. Musk has boasted about how Grok is not trained to be “woke”, unlike competitors like ChatGPT. OpenAI, meanwhile, has become the belle of the Silicon Valley ball, nabbing billions of dollars of investment from Microsoft. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And at a certain point, it becomes clear that the OpenAI nonprofit is really a shell of its former self. Right? Like, it’s all of the IP, all of the intellectual property has shifted, uh, from the nonprofit to the for-profit, all of the talent…I think it was kind of sitting there employee-free until very recently, and money was put into it. It’s now estimated to be worth about 200 billion, with a B, dollars. But what has this nonprofit been up to? Precious little. Precious little. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so at some point, Musk decides to sue and to say, ‘Wait a second, you know, um, this is a bait and switch…they’ve abandoned the mission that we cooked up originally and, I want recompense. I want Altman and others, stripped from the board, stripped from their leadership positions. I want, something like $150 billion shifted from the for-profit to the nonprofit.’ But of course, if you’re OpenAI, your attitude is like, ‘Whoa, this is clearly vindictive.’ You know, you didn’t get what you want, that’s why you walked away with your toys and your money, and, uh, you know, we’re gonna see you in court.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This legal showdown has been simmering for years. Between filing in early 2024 and finally walking into the courtroom for his testimony last month, Musk has: filed a motion accusing OpenAI and Microsoft of being a monopoly, led a group of investors in an attempt to buy OpenAI, threatened to sue Apple for giving OpenAI preferential treatment in the App Store, and has gotten into multiple online spats with Altman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was 100% clear there’s no love lost, uh, between you know, the principals. You know, what I like to say is, like, nobody has clean hands in this situation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what exactly happened at this trial? Let’s open another new tab: Musk v. Altman \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On one side you’ve got Elon Musk. You know, he didn’t come to be the wealthiest person on Earth by accident, right? Uh, even if he may not have been the person to start many of the companies he now owns and controls, uh, he took them into the stratosphere, quite literally in the case of SpaceX.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s very good at doing that, but he’s also well known to be mercurial, to have a kind of Jekyll and Hyde personality, to push other people to the breaking point.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, um, he’s gonna make decisions that, uh, he doesn’t expect to be countermanded on in the slightest. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you have somebody like Sam Altman, and, uh, I’ll tell you, it wasn’t any accident that The New Yorker came out with a scandalous profile of Sam Altman on the eve of the trial that basically, uh, described him as a compulsive pathological liar, and all of that came out in the trial too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let’s go through a few highlights from this trial. It got pretty juicy when Shivon Zillis took the stand. She’s a venture capitalist and machine learning expert who started working at OpenAI when it launched, and later joined the board of directors. She’s also the mother of four of Musk’s fourteen children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In her testimony, she said that their relationship started with a “one-off” at a corporate off-site. When she decided to start a family on her own, Musk offered to be her platonic sperm donor. Their relationship grew, and now, they’re romantic partners. She told the OpenAI board about her relationship with Musk only after Business Insider started reporting on it. According to other testimony, many board members wanted to remove her, but decided to let her stay to, “keep the Elon conflict under control.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think for many people who are not familiar with Silicon Valley shenanigans, going back decades, not, this is not new to AI, um, it’s not just neutral characters on the board. It’s a very insular world. It’s on the level of incest, I would say. And so I, for one, was not shocked to discover that Elon Musk had a, again, like a consigliere on the board making decisions. She seemed to be there in many ways, um, serving as a go-between, between Sam and Elon, helping to smooth over conversations, helping to, to help them reach points of agreement when that was possible, and at the very least, have clarity on what the other side was thinking when that was not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something else that also g- kind of struck me about not just Zelis’s testimony, but also the other women who had roles in this period of time at OpenAI that was under discussion, is how much even the smartest women were only number twos, number threes, ancillary characters in a drama that starred men. This is all about men, primarily white men, with a tremendous sense of entitlement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are these salacious journal entries. So, Greg Brockman is the president of OpenAI, and today, he has a 30 billion dollar stake in the company. But he wasn’t always so ludicrously wealthy. During the trial, pages of his personal diary from nearly 10 years ago were read out loud. And what he wrote seems to bolster Musk’s argument that they were all in it for the money, not necessarily for the good of humanity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Word to the wise, be aware that if you get sued, they’re gonna come looking for this stuff. You know? Like, when he’s, when he’s writing to himself, “What will take me to $1 billion?” it was pretty clear that it sounded like he was interested in becoming rich. You have a guy who was personally ambitious. Um, is that illegal? I don’t know if it’s illegal. It certainly didn’t look good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The funny thing here about Zelis, and it’s kind of in parallel to, to Brockman, is that, you know, Zelis was taking notes. And also a lot of Zelis’ emails and texts document how early Musk knew that people were talking about a, uh, a for-profit, that Musk himself was talking about a for-profit form of OpenAI. So this kind of ate away at the argument that he was shocked, shocked to discover that self-enrichment had become such a powerful motivator for his colleagues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Another standout from the trial: texts between Sam Altman and former OpenAI CTO Mira Murati from the night that the OpenAI board voted to fire Altman as CEO. He was reinstated after over 90% of OpenAI employees threatened to quit and work for Microsoft. That in between time period is known as “The Blip.” And the exchanges from the night it started were read in court, and have since gone viral — immediately embedded in the lexicon of internet reaction memes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael and I are going to do a dramatic reading of the texts \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I wanna be Mira. Or wait a moment. No, I wanna be Sam. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You wanna be Sam? Okay. Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you indicate directionally good or bad? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Directionally very bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can I come in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t want you to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you want to make it better? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m still willing to just walk away if that helps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they are ramped up for crazy lawsuits against me, then I’m not sure what… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you please tell them I just wanna resolve this however, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and would like to join?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re convinced about their decision.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For me to be fired or some new thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, for you to be gone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Then can I come in and talk about a path forward with them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you ask why they’ve been saying all weekend they wanted me back?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Still don’t want me? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t want you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, these read, these read like the kinds of texts that you would send during a really brutal breakup, like when you’re like, ‘Oh, my friend sees my ex in, in public. Can you please go talk to them?’ You know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do they reveal about the power struggle at OpenAI though?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was an attempted coup, essentially, precisely because of Sam Altman’s, uh, alleged managerial misbehavior, pitting different people against each other with different stories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another OpenAI board member, Helen Toner, shed light on this in her deposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Helen Toner basically said that Altman lied about what kind of safety reviews were done about, uh, models of ChatGPT that were released, that he ultimately cleared for release, and which, you know, she could say really wasn’t about AI safety, It was about this, you know, lack of trust in the communication. Microsoft, uh, CEO Satya Nadella, at one point he characterized the entire blip as amateur hour. Uh, these naive board members thinking that they could, you know, hold Sam Altman accountable, uh, for, for lying to them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, Brockman and Altman were both throwing around some pretty wild accusations about why Musk really wanted control of OpenAI. Um, Brockman said that he wanted to raise massive amounts of money to build a colony on Mars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, Sam Altman claimed that Musk was planning to pass OpenAI down to his children when he died, like succession style. But I mean, everyone’s dirty laundry was aired out in that courtroom. Like, no one came out with clean hands, including Sam Altman. So what did the witnesses say about him and his character? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my goodness. There were so many people who described him as a liar to the extent that when finally he was directly questioned about being a liar, uh, and he didn’t answer the question directly, it just made him look more like a liar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were so many people who talked about his lack of, uh, trustworthiness. Sam Altman on the witness stand for hours being asked why he’s such a big liar. His former chief scientist, his former chief technology officer, two former board members, all testifying under oath that Altman exhibited a consistent pattern of dishonesty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is now in the public record forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">all of these guys come off as self-serving and, and, uh, backstabbing and oily. I wouldn’t wanna meet any of them in a dark alley or on the other side of a business deal. You know, like, they’re obviously not out for the benefit of humanity. But then we knew that. Didn’t we know that? I think we knew that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After all that, mountains of evidence, hours of testimony, brutal days spent on those cold, hard, unforgiving courtroom benches, unless you had a fancy butt cushion, the ending of this trial was kind of anticlimactic. It took the jury just two hours to come to a unanimous decision. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The jury decided that Musk simply waited too long to sue. California has statutes of limitations. So you can’t just sit on your claims forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in the end nothing happened! But that doesn’t mean the trial was for nothing. What’s the real outcome here? What did this courtroom drama really reveal? After the break, a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Ok, after the break? We’re leaving the courtroom, and going back to the real world. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re back! Let’s open one last tab: Musk v. Altman outcome.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the jury rejected Musk’s case this week. But it’s important to note that they didn’t make that decision based on the legal merit of his case, just that it was too late for Musk to pursue it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the jury found that Musk knew or should have known what was happening at OpenAI by 2020 at the latest. He filed in 2024. He argued in court, you know, that that’s because it wasn’t that he was opposed to any kind of for-profit division. He just didn’t want one that dominated the nonprofit. And that didn’t become clear to him until 2023. So he wanted to essentially start the clock on the statue of limitations later on in the game\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But OpenAI argued and the judge essentially agreed that Musk needed to have made the case soon after what he saw happening at OpenAI by 2020 at the latest. So all three claims, breach of charitable trust, unjust enrichment, Microsoft aiding and abetting, are gone because of the statute of limitations thing, not because they decided on the merits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hours after the verdict came out, Elon Musk responded in the most Elon Musk possible way, which is he took it to Twitter, uh, sorry, X, to complain. Um, he did a classic tweet and delete. So the first tweet he said, first post, “This illustrates why the ruling by the terrible activist Oakland judge, who simply used the jury as a fig leaf, creates such a terrible precedent. She just handed a free license to loot charities if you can keep the looting quiet for a few years.” And then deleted that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then followed up, “Regarding the OpenAI case, the judge and jury never actually ruled on the merits of the case just on a calendar technicality. There is no question to anyone following the case in detail that Altman and Brockman did in fact enrich themselves by stealing a charity. The only question is when they did it.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did this response surprise you at all?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not in the slightest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now that she makes clear she agrees with the jury, Musk posted ‘she’s a terrible activist Oakland judge who handed out a free license to loot charities.’ Musk is just not sympathetic. Um, but I’m thinking, like President Trump, it wasn’t necessarily important to Musk to win the case, just to file it, to drag Altman through the mud in a very public way ahead of these two IPOs. If what you what is revenge, that’s not nothing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This trial did a number on Sam Altman’s public image. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It certainly revealed a lot of the circular business deals he was involved in. He may have recused himself from the actual votes with some of these companies but he nonetheless profited from them or could profit in the near future. I think this was a habit he picked up at Y Combinator. Anyway, it was laid bare in the courtroom. I think it put another nail in the coffin. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there were protesters outside the courthouse with some very funny signs up. And they poked the most fun at Musk, but they also poked a lot of fun at Sam Altman. You know, it’s Sam Altman’s house that got a Molotov cocktail thrown at it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like, I think there is a great deal of public discontent, even rage over the rollout of AI into all of our lives. And, you know, this train got rolling out of the station through OpenAI, through ChatGPT, uh, and, you know, it was off to the races for a bunch of companies. But there at the forefront, at least in the beginning, was OpenAI, and Sam Altman is the face of OpenAI. And so this trial and all the mountains of evidence just confirm for people their opinions of Sam Altman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, if there’s a fan club somebody’s gotta send me a T-shirt to prove it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of Silicon Valley tends to operate in a kind of bubble, disconnected from the public’s growing discontent around AI. Students are graduating into increasingly unstable careers, thanks to companies pushing to replace human workers with AI, regardless of whether AI can do the jobs better. Nothing shows that disconnect quite like the reaction to commencement speakers who tried to praise AI to a room full of new graduates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from University of Central Florida Graduation] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Crowd: Boos \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: Woo! What happened? Ok, I struck a chord! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple commencement speakers across the country have tried to proselytize AI this month and they were booed each time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This rejection is not unfounded. While covering the trial, Rachael spoke to one of the protesters outside of the courthouse. Her name is Valerie. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valerie Sizemore:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to be a software engineer, but, um, have been unemployed by AI, so now I’m trying to make the resistance happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this trial, um, these two CEOs are fighting over a piece of a pie that, uh, doesn’t really matter for the world. They’re just trying to make themselves richer, but we’re all gonna lose regardless of who wins.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI titans, and they are titans now, keep mistaking public resistance for ignorance. Somebody like Valerie isn’t failing to understand the wonders of AI. She’s recognizing that the costs like higher power bills, strained electrical grids, her job disappearing on, her career disappearing on her. Right? A technology class that treats the question of public consent as an annoying inconvenience. I guess what I’m getting at here, Morgan, is that we’re not talking about a PR problem. We’re talking about class warfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was a battle between two billionaires. The trial revolved around this core question: Is OpenAI’s commitment to the benefit of humanity real? Or, is the company’s commitment really to chasing profits at the expense of AI safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was supposed to be the trial of the century ended without answers or accountability. And by ruling on timing instead of the actual merits of the case, the trial also failed to establish any legal precedent for AI governance and guardrails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s not gonna do a damn thing to stop this nightmare. Right? Obviously there’s gonna be an appeal from Musk’s attorneys. Who knows what’ll happen there? But you know, both Musk with his SpaceX IPO and Altman with his OpenAI IPO, they’re just gonna go forward as before. The AI rollout will go on as before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who knows if we’ll ever get artificial general intelligence per se? I don’t think it matters. I mean, the changes that have been happening have been happening without artificial general intelligence. They’re, they’re disruptive enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How do you think this case will impact future AI cases?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OpenAI is a strange creature. It started as a nonprofit, maybe because Musk and Altman intuitively knew that, uh, they had a better chance of raising money at that time if they presented it as for the good of humanity as opposed to, you know, just a chance to get in on this gold rush.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? And, and it must be said, and you know, many of the OpenAI principals said it many times that in the beginning, in the first few years of OpenAI, it was not clear at all it was gonna succeed, right? Google seemed to have such a head start and such a well-capitalized head start. So, you know, OpenAI has only become fabulously valued, um, in recent years, and it, it’s still not making money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To go back to, you know, like what, what precedent does this set for Silicon Valley? I don’t know that it sets any precedent because who in their right mind would start something like OpenAI again in that way? You would set up a startup like any other group of entrepreneurs and take your chances with that setup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this theater ended with no real answers, no real accountability, and no real change for the AI industry overall. So then was the point of taking this case to court in the first place? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The judge put tight, and I mean tight brackets around what this case was going to be about at trial, which raises the question for me, why did she take this case in the first place?Why did she give Elon Musk standing if he had unclean hands? He was a rival. He was a competitor in the AI space. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that Gonzalez Rogers wanted these guys on both sides to be forced to peel back the curtain on how AI came to dominate the world in the way that it does now. And maybe the judge couldn’t give us accountability, but she could give us visibility, and that’s not nothing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another upside: all those juicy, salacious details that were once just gossip fodder, that’s public record now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there any legal precedent here? I think maybe the point was the theater.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for this episode, but stick around after the credits. Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry profile PBT keycaps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow: Steve Molo, uh, the Musk’s attorney: “Have you misled people with whom you do business?” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman “I do not think so.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Molo says, “Would they think so?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Altman says, “I can’t answer that.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo says, “You’ve repeatedly been called a liar by people with whom you’ve done business.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I have heard people say that.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo: “Are you completely trustworthy?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I believe so.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo: “You don’t know?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I’ll just amend my answer to yes.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "california-judges-are-testing-a-new-ai-clerk-you-wont-know-if-its-looking-at-your-case",
"title": "California Judges Are Testing a New AI Clerk. You Won’t Know if It’s Looking at Your Case",
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"headTitle": "California Judges Are Testing a New AI Clerk. You Won’t Know if It’s Looking at Your Case | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two of California’s largest courts are testing an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI tool\u003c/a> that can draft orders and produce research memos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Judges so far are using it primarily for civil cases, but documents obtained by CalMatters indicate the possibility of expanded applications in criminal cases, where people’s freedom and access to justice are on the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Los Angeles County Superior Court \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2026-03-18/ai-pilot-program-la-county-courts\">began a pilot program\u003c/a> in February to test a tool created by the company Learned Hand. Other courts may follow, according to Learned Hand founder and chief executive officer Shlomo Klapper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Learned Hand uses a combination of language models from Anthropic, OpenAI and Google to act as an AI clerk for judges. The company says it tests for bias and accuracy, but it has not yet published results.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Riverside County, which has a $10,000 agreement with the company to test the program, civil and probate attorneys are primarily using the tool to draft research memos that help judges reach their decisions. It’s typical for research attorneys to assist judges as they review cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Los Angeles County Superior Court has a roughly $314,000 contract that includes a roadmap to test the tool’s use in criminal, family and probate divisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079282\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079282\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Salesforce Tower is seen reflected in windows of 500 Howard Street, where AI firm Anthropic subleased Slack’s office, in downtown San Francisco, California on Oct. 19, 2023. \u003ccite>(Loren Elliott for The Washington Post via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Officials would not describe in detail to CalMatters the criteria they’re using to evaluate whether use of the tool can safely expand to criminal and family courts, where the stakes are often much higher than in civil cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One judge who spoke to CalMatters on condition of anonymity due to judicial rules of conduct was alarmed when their colleagues at a recent luncheon said the technology could be used one day to evaluate appeals from people who believe their conviction or sentence was tainted by racial bias. California courts are handling a wave of those claims after lawmakers passed the Racial Justice Act in 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it is outrageous,” said the Los Angeles County Superior Court judge. “AI cannot and never will be able to replace human judgment in evaluating complex social dynamics. Ultimately, that will erode the public’s confidence in the competence and fairness of the judiciary.”[aside postID=news_12084655 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GavinNewsomAP.jpg']A majority of California’s superior courts now have generative AI use policies, according to documents obtained by CalMatters via public records requests, which they were required to create by the state Judicial Council before using the technology. Roughly a dozen of the 51 courts that have responded to CalMatters’ requests said they are using AI-powered tools from LexisNexis, Thomson Reuters, and Microsoft’s Copilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Use of AI in courts has been controversial because of the propensity of AI models to cite falsehoods and to produce sycophantic text. Models from major companies like Google and Anthropic can \u003ca href=\"https://www.media.mit.edu/publications/your-brain-on-chatgpt/\">reduce critical thinking and brain activity\u003c/a>, according to a 2025 MIT study.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Language model hallucinations have already made it into the judicial system. Researcher Damien Charlotin has \u003ca href=\"https://www.damiencharlotin.com/hallucinations/\">documented hundreds of instances\u003c/a> of litigants, lawyers, and judges making mistakes when using AI to do their jobs including nearly 90 cases in state or federal courts based in California since August 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last fall, \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/09/chatgpt-lawyer-fine-ai-regulation/\">a Los Angeles-based lawyer received a historic $10,000 fine\u003c/a> for citing cases that don’t exist, and earlier this month the \u003cem>Sacramento Bee\u003c/em> reported that use of AI led to errors in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article315238766.html\">four cases handled by prosecutors in Nevada County\u003c/a>. Most of these cases involve lawyers or people who are representing themselves in court, but UCLA Law School professors predict that \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/09/chatgpt-lawyer-fine-ai-regulation/\">more judges will make AI-fueled mistakes\u003c/a> in the future. In recent months,\u003ca href=\"https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/grassley-scrutinizes-federal-judges-apparent-ai-use-in-drafting-error-ridden-rulings\"> the U.S. Senate investigated federal judges\u003c/a> in Mississippi and New Jersey for drafting decisions with generative AI that had serious factual errors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Klapper, who previously worked as a clerk for a federal appeals court and for surveillance technology company Palantir, said the judiciary needs AI in order to reduce backlogs and increase efficiency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12085153\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12085153\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2263718744.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1237\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2263718744.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2263718744-160x100.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2263718744-1536x960.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view of the Los Angeles Superior Court at United States Court House on Feb. 26, 2026 in Los Angeles, California. \u003ccite>(Mario Tama/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Could we hire more people?” he told CalMatters. “Maybe, but it’s not going to keep pace with the exponential increase that’s coming, nor is it going to be able to adequately solve the crisis of today. I think the only solution is to give every single judge and staff attorney their own AI clerk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Klapper said he’s aiming to combine the best parts of what human judges can do with the best parts of what machines bring to bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m not saying all machines aren’t biased,” he said. “I’m not saying my machine isn’t even biased. I’m saying we can test it and people have tested it. And that is the benefit over humans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Generative AI use policies for the Los Angeles and Riverside County superior courts only require disclosure if a motion, decision, or other document is written entirely with generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both courts refused to say whether plaintiffs are aware that the tool is being tested on their cases. In a statement to CalMatters, a spokesperson for the Los Angeles County Superior Court said testing is done on motions that have already been decided, separate from live case environments. However, the contract allows for testing on live cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is important to note that even with successful evaluation and thorough testing, the Court remains several months, if not years, away from implementing this type of tool,” said the spokesperson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The contract allows the tool to be used for two critical motions in the criminal division: A motion to suppress, which is designed to determine what type of evidence the prosecution is allowed to present at trial, and motions for post conviction relief, which are filed by people who have already been convicted and want another shot at freedom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12085154\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12085154\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2262710662.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2262710662.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2262710662-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2262710662-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Los Angeles County district attorney Nathan J. Hochman seen after the arraignment of Nick Reiner at the Los Angeles Superior Court in downtown Los Angeles, United States on Feb. 2026. \u003ccite>(Putman/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That’s the “greatest concern” for Los Angeles County District Attorney Nathan Hochman. When he reviewed the contract, he referred to the motions as “two incredibly important motions in the criminal justice system.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you’re dealing with someone’s liberty — as opposed to in the civil setting, which is everything other than liberty — the stakes couldn’t be higher,” said Hochman. “I don’t want to take the chance, particularly in a criminal case, that AI happens to get it wrong. And now someone’s constitutional rights have been infringed. Someone has gone to prison who shouldn’t have, or on the flip side, that somehow someone gets off.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘An extremely perilous road’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In Los Angeles, some judges first heard about the new Learned Hand contract during a March presentation by Superior Court Judges Yvette Verastegui and Olivia Rosales. They lead the criminal branch and visit courthouses throughout the county as part of an annual roadshow, where they update judges on court operations, discuss workload and field questions. During a luncheon, Verastegui and Rosales said the tool could be used to assist with Racial Justice Act petitions in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/justice/2024/11/california-racial-justice-act/\">California’s Racial Justice Act\u003c/a> allows people to challenge a criminal conviction or sentence that they believe was based upon racial bias. Petitions are filed directly to the court from people in state prison. If a case is found to have merit, the process includes appointing legal counsel, filing briefs and setting evidentiary hearings before a judge would decide whether to grant the petition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That process could look different with a tool like Learned Hand. Verastegui and Rosales explained that, following an incarcerated person’s petition, the tool could generate tentative decisions for judges to consider in denying or advancing cases to the next stages, according to one judge who attended the luncheon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12037905\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12037905\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Santa Clara County Superior Court in San José on March 24, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The concern, of course, that I have is that the courts will utilize that as a reference point and then get stuck to that initial analysis,” said the judge. “It’s an extremely perilous road to go down. Putting aside the inaccuracy, which will be a significant concern, it dehumanizes the whole process. It does not treat people as individuals with lived experiences. It essentially reimposes a one-size-fits-all style of justice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A second Los Angeles Superior Court judge who spoke with CalMatters on the condition of anonymity remembered the presentation and said they would not trust nor use the tool to summarize a Racial Justice Act petition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AI can replicate or intensify patterns contained in the data used to make a model, including human biases. Large language models have a \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/news/covert-racism-ai-how-language-models-are-reinforcing-outdated-stereotypes\">history of demonstrating race and gender bias\u003c/a>, an analysis of predictive policing tech used by LAPD \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/07/lapd-predictive-policing-surveillance-reform\">found racial bias\u003c/a>, and an analysis of the risk assessment algorithm COMPAS found that it is \u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/machine-bias-risk-assessments-in-criminal-sentencing\">more likely to label Black people as at risk of committing crimes\u003c/a> after incarceration than white people with a similar record.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public defenders who spoke with CalMatters echoed those concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth Lashley-Haynes, a deputy public defender at the Los Angeles County Public Defender’s Office, said it would be “highly problematic and bordering on unethical” for a judge to use the tool to review Racial Justice Act petitions, which she described as “incredibly nuanced.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re like nothing else in the legal system that has ever really been done,” said Lashley-Haynes, who specializes in Racial Justice Act cases. “Words that are used in these cases that have racial undertones or racial meanings are way beyond the realm of anything that artificial intelligence could do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12085155\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12085155\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/031225-MentalHealth-JAH-CM-11.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/031225-MentalHealth-JAH-CM-11.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/031225-MentalHealth-JAH-CM-11-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/031225-MentalHealth-JAH-CM-11-1536x1024.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Los Angeles County Superior Court’s Hollywood Courthouse, in Los Angeles, on March 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Jules Hotz for CalMatters)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In interviews with CalMatters, Klapper and Los Angeles County Superior Court Executive Officer, David Slayton, denied that the court has any plans to use the tool for Racial Justice Act petitions. A spokesperson for the Los Angeles Superior Court later confirmed in an email to CalMatters that the contract permits the tool to be used in such a way “but that possibility has not commenced in any way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Klapper said if they were to build out a Racial Justice Act module, the tool would need to be evaluated for bias and co-developed with the court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The timing very fortuitous, right?” he said. “It’s a very fraught decision, I’m not going to lie…extremely high stakes — a scenario where I understand people might be very concerned. Especially with criminal, I have even more hesitancy, even more guardrails than normal about, because there are liberty interests at stake.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Extending beyond civil cases\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In Los Angeles, six superior court judges and their research attorneys are primarily using the Learned Hand tool to conduct research, summarize motions and assist in drafting tentative rulings, according to Slayton. He says the tool won’t move beyond the civil division “until the court leadership is comfortable.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The court is being very deliberate and careful about how we use technology like this,” he said. “So until we evaluate it and determine that it is effective in those areas, we will not extend it to other areas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tool will be evaluated on a quarterly basis to determine its future application, Slayton said, but he did not specify what kind of evaluation that entails. In an email to CalMatters, a spokesperson later said that Learned Hand is evaluated “against the same substantive expectations applied to law clerks and research attorneys: accurate legal research, sound analysis, neutral and judge-ready writing, and reliable work product that supports judicial decision-making.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066914\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066914\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence, something for which the tech industry has been lobbying. \u003ccite>(Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Samantha Jessner, who chairs the Judicial Technology Advisory Committee, said she was unaware of the possibility that the tool could eventually be used outside of the civil division until recently. Judges are not privy to contract negotiations due to certain ethical limitations, she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we have a duty and obligation to explore whether or not there is a place for artificial intelligence in what we do as a judicial branch and that’s exactly what this pilot is intended to afford us the opportunity to do,” said Jessner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Riverside County Superior Court signed an agreement with Learned Hand in February. In emails obtained by CalMatters, Klapper proposed to two Riverside County Superior Court executives, Jason Galkin and Sarah Hodgson, that the court use the tool for a common civil court motion and “then expand quickly once we earn our stripes.” He suggested that Hodgson assemble a list of motions and workflows “that generate the most pain,” citing examples that included the Racial Justice Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roughly two weeks later, Hodgson described the most laborious motions “that want to drive us into retirement,” including discovery motions and attorney fee motions. For criminal cases, the court suggested that Klapper focus on “things with the largest paper records,” citing death penalty habeas petitions and parole revocation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the pilot started, seven civil and probate attorneys have been granted access to the tool. Galkin, the chief executive officer of the Riverside County Superior Court, said they are “kicking the tires on the product” to see what tasks it can do. The tool is not being used to draft tentative rulings, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985952\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985952\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston. OpenAI has introduced a new artificial intelligence model. It says it works faster than previous versions and can reason across text, audio and video in real time. \u003ccite>(Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We don’t even know if expansion is likely so there is no set criteria for what expansion might look like or thresholds for that because right now, the core question is: Does this help staff and does it advance what they’re trying to do in their roles?” said Galkin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As testing is underway, attorneys like Hochman say that use of AI is inevitable, but would be better suited for low-level, repetitive and routine tasks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s the analysis of the case itself, coupled with the conclusions that will be reached, that I’m very hesitant to trust AI at this point — in large part, because I don’t know all of the inputs that AI is using to make its decision. The only thing I’m 100% sure of is that AI didn’t go to law school,” said Hochman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cayla Mihalovich is a California Local News fellow.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/05/ai-los-angeles-riverside-courts/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two of California’s largest courts are testing an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI tool\u003c/a> that can draft orders and produce research memos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Judges so far are using it primarily for civil cases, but documents obtained by CalMatters indicate the possibility of expanded applications in criminal cases, where people’s freedom and access to justice are on the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Los Angeles County Superior Court \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2026-03-18/ai-pilot-program-la-county-courts\">began a pilot program\u003c/a> in February to test a tool created by the company Learned Hand. Other courts may follow, according to Learned Hand founder and chief executive officer Shlomo Klapper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Learned Hand uses a combination of language models from Anthropic, OpenAI and Google to act as an AI clerk for judges. The company says it tests for bias and accuracy, but it has not yet published results.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Riverside County, which has a $10,000 agreement with the company to test the program, civil and probate attorneys are primarily using the tool to draft research memos that help judges reach their decisions. It’s typical for research attorneys to assist judges as they review cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Los Angeles County Superior Court has a roughly $314,000 contract that includes a roadmap to test the tool’s use in criminal, family and probate divisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079282\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079282\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Salesforce Tower is seen reflected in windows of 500 Howard Street, where AI firm Anthropic subleased Slack’s office, in downtown San Francisco, California on Oct. 19, 2023. \u003ccite>(Loren Elliott for The Washington Post via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Officials would not describe in detail to CalMatters the criteria they’re using to evaluate whether use of the tool can safely expand to criminal and family courts, where the stakes are often much higher than in civil cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One judge who spoke to CalMatters on condition of anonymity due to judicial rules of conduct was alarmed when their colleagues at a recent luncheon said the technology could be used one day to evaluate appeals from people who believe their conviction or sentence was tainted by racial bias. California courts are handling a wave of those claims after lawmakers passed the Racial Justice Act in 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it is outrageous,” said the Los Angeles County Superior Court judge. “AI cannot and never will be able to replace human judgment in evaluating complex social dynamics. Ultimately, that will erode the public’s confidence in the competence and fairness of the judiciary.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>A majority of California’s superior courts now have generative AI use policies, according to documents obtained by CalMatters via public records requests, which they were required to create by the state Judicial Council before using the technology. Roughly a dozen of the 51 courts that have responded to CalMatters’ requests said they are using AI-powered tools from LexisNexis, Thomson Reuters, and Microsoft’s Copilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Use of AI in courts has been controversial because of the propensity of AI models to cite falsehoods and to produce sycophantic text. Models from major companies like Google and Anthropic can \u003ca href=\"https://www.media.mit.edu/publications/your-brain-on-chatgpt/\">reduce critical thinking and brain activity\u003c/a>, according to a 2025 MIT study.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Language model hallucinations have already made it into the judicial system. Researcher Damien Charlotin has \u003ca href=\"https://www.damiencharlotin.com/hallucinations/\">documented hundreds of instances\u003c/a> of litigants, lawyers, and judges making mistakes when using AI to do their jobs including nearly 90 cases in state or federal courts based in California since August 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last fall, \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/09/chatgpt-lawyer-fine-ai-regulation/\">a Los Angeles-based lawyer received a historic $10,000 fine\u003c/a> for citing cases that don’t exist, and earlier this month the \u003cem>Sacramento Bee\u003c/em> reported that use of AI led to errors in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article315238766.html\">four cases handled by prosecutors in Nevada County\u003c/a>. Most of these cases involve lawyers or people who are representing themselves in court, but UCLA Law School professors predict that \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/09/chatgpt-lawyer-fine-ai-regulation/\">more judges will make AI-fueled mistakes\u003c/a> in the future. In recent months,\u003ca href=\"https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/grassley-scrutinizes-federal-judges-apparent-ai-use-in-drafting-error-ridden-rulings\"> the U.S. Senate investigated federal judges\u003c/a> in Mississippi and New Jersey for drafting decisions with generative AI that had serious factual errors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Klapper, who previously worked as a clerk for a federal appeals court and for surveillance technology company Palantir, said the judiciary needs AI in order to reduce backlogs and increase efficiency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12085153\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12085153\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2263718744.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1237\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2263718744.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2263718744-160x100.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2263718744-1536x960.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view of the Los Angeles Superior Court at United States Court House on Feb. 26, 2026 in Los Angeles, California. \u003ccite>(Mario Tama/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Could we hire more people?” he told CalMatters. “Maybe, but it’s not going to keep pace with the exponential increase that’s coming, nor is it going to be able to adequately solve the crisis of today. I think the only solution is to give every single judge and staff attorney their own AI clerk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Klapper said he’s aiming to combine the best parts of what human judges can do with the best parts of what machines bring to bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m not saying all machines aren’t biased,” he said. “I’m not saying my machine isn’t even biased. I’m saying we can test it and people have tested it. And that is the benefit over humans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Generative AI use policies for the Los Angeles and Riverside County superior courts only require disclosure if a motion, decision, or other document is written entirely with generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both courts refused to say whether plaintiffs are aware that the tool is being tested on their cases. In a statement to CalMatters, a spokesperson for the Los Angeles County Superior Court said testing is done on motions that have already been decided, separate from live case environments. However, the contract allows for testing on live cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is important to note that even with successful evaluation and thorough testing, the Court remains several months, if not years, away from implementing this type of tool,” said the spokesperson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The contract allows the tool to be used for two critical motions in the criminal division: A motion to suppress, which is designed to determine what type of evidence the prosecution is allowed to present at trial, and motions for post conviction relief, which are filed by people who have already been convicted and want another shot at freedom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12085154\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12085154\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2262710662.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2262710662.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2262710662-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2262710662-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Los Angeles County district attorney Nathan J. Hochman seen after the arraignment of Nick Reiner at the Los Angeles Superior Court in downtown Los Angeles, United States on Feb. 2026. \u003ccite>(Putman/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That’s the “greatest concern” for Los Angeles County District Attorney Nathan Hochman. When he reviewed the contract, he referred to the motions as “two incredibly important motions in the criminal justice system.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you’re dealing with someone’s liberty — as opposed to in the civil setting, which is everything other than liberty — the stakes couldn’t be higher,” said Hochman. “I don’t want to take the chance, particularly in a criminal case, that AI happens to get it wrong. And now someone’s constitutional rights have been infringed. Someone has gone to prison who shouldn’t have, or on the flip side, that somehow someone gets off.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘An extremely perilous road’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In Los Angeles, some judges first heard about the new Learned Hand contract during a March presentation by Superior Court Judges Yvette Verastegui and Olivia Rosales. They lead the criminal branch and visit courthouses throughout the county as part of an annual roadshow, where they update judges on court operations, discuss workload and field questions. During a luncheon, Verastegui and Rosales said the tool could be used to assist with Racial Justice Act petitions in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/justice/2024/11/california-racial-justice-act/\">California’s Racial Justice Act\u003c/a> allows people to challenge a criminal conviction or sentence that they believe was based upon racial bias. Petitions are filed directly to the court from people in state prison. If a case is found to have merit, the process includes appointing legal counsel, filing briefs and setting evidentiary hearings before a judge would decide whether to grant the petition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That process could look different with a tool like Learned Hand. Verastegui and Rosales explained that, following an incarcerated person’s petition, the tool could generate tentative decisions for judges to consider in denying or advancing cases to the next stages, according to one judge who attended the luncheon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12037905\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12037905\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/20240324_SANTACLARASUPERIORCOURT_GC-2-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Santa Clara County Superior Court in San José on March 24, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The concern, of course, that I have is that the courts will utilize that as a reference point and then get stuck to that initial analysis,” said the judge. “It’s an extremely perilous road to go down. Putting aside the inaccuracy, which will be a significant concern, it dehumanizes the whole process. It does not treat people as individuals with lived experiences. It essentially reimposes a one-size-fits-all style of justice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A second Los Angeles Superior Court judge who spoke with CalMatters on the condition of anonymity remembered the presentation and said they would not trust nor use the tool to summarize a Racial Justice Act petition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AI can replicate or intensify patterns contained in the data used to make a model, including human biases. Large language models have a \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/news/covert-racism-ai-how-language-models-are-reinforcing-outdated-stereotypes\">history of demonstrating race and gender bias\u003c/a>, an analysis of predictive policing tech used by LAPD \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/07/lapd-predictive-policing-surveillance-reform\">found racial bias\u003c/a>, and an analysis of the risk assessment algorithm COMPAS found that it is \u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/machine-bias-risk-assessments-in-criminal-sentencing\">more likely to label Black people as at risk of committing crimes\u003c/a> after incarceration than white people with a similar record.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public defenders who spoke with CalMatters echoed those concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth Lashley-Haynes, a deputy public defender at the Los Angeles County Public Defender’s Office, said it would be “highly problematic and bordering on unethical” for a judge to use the tool to review Racial Justice Act petitions, which she described as “incredibly nuanced.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re like nothing else in the legal system that has ever really been done,” said Lashley-Haynes, who specializes in Racial Justice Act cases. “Words that are used in these cases that have racial undertones or racial meanings are way beyond the realm of anything that artificial intelligence could do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12085155\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12085155\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/031225-MentalHealth-JAH-CM-11.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/031225-MentalHealth-JAH-CM-11.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/031225-MentalHealth-JAH-CM-11-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/031225-MentalHealth-JAH-CM-11-1536x1024.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Los Angeles County Superior Court’s Hollywood Courthouse, in Los Angeles, on March 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Jules Hotz for CalMatters)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In interviews with CalMatters, Klapper and Los Angeles County Superior Court Executive Officer, David Slayton, denied that the court has any plans to use the tool for Racial Justice Act petitions. A spokesperson for the Los Angeles Superior Court later confirmed in an email to CalMatters that the contract permits the tool to be used in such a way “but that possibility has not commenced in any way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Klapper said if they were to build out a Racial Justice Act module, the tool would need to be evaluated for bias and co-developed with the court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The timing very fortuitous, right?” he said. “It’s a very fraught decision, I’m not going to lie…extremely high stakes — a scenario where I understand people might be very concerned. Especially with criminal, I have even more hesitancy, even more guardrails than normal about, because there are liberty interests at stake.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Extending beyond civil cases\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In Los Angeles, six superior court judges and their research attorneys are primarily using the Learned Hand tool to conduct research, summarize motions and assist in drafting tentative rulings, according to Slayton. He says the tool won’t move beyond the civil division “until the court leadership is comfortable.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The court is being very deliberate and careful about how we use technology like this,” he said. “So until we evaluate it and determine that it is effective in those areas, we will not extend it to other areas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tool will be evaluated on a quarterly basis to determine its future application, Slayton said, but he did not specify what kind of evaluation that entails. In an email to CalMatters, a spokesperson later said that Learned Hand is evaluated “against the same substantive expectations applied to law clerks and research attorneys: accurate legal research, sound analysis, neutral and judge-ready writing, and reliable work product that supports judicial decision-making.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066914\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066914\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence, something for which the tech industry has been lobbying. \u003ccite>(Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Samantha Jessner, who chairs the Judicial Technology Advisory Committee, said she was unaware of the possibility that the tool could eventually be used outside of the civil division until recently. Judges are not privy to contract negotiations due to certain ethical limitations, she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we have a duty and obligation to explore whether or not there is a place for artificial intelligence in what we do as a judicial branch and that’s exactly what this pilot is intended to afford us the opportunity to do,” said Jessner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Riverside County Superior Court signed an agreement with Learned Hand in February. In emails obtained by CalMatters, Klapper proposed to two Riverside County Superior Court executives, Jason Galkin and Sarah Hodgson, that the court use the tool for a common civil court motion and “then expand quickly once we earn our stripes.” He suggested that Hodgson assemble a list of motions and workflows “that generate the most pain,” citing examples that included the Racial Justice Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roughly two weeks later, Hodgson described the most laborious motions “that want to drive us into retirement,” including discovery motions and attorney fee motions. For criminal cases, the court suggested that Klapper focus on “things with the largest paper records,” citing death penalty habeas petitions and parole revocation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the pilot started, seven civil and probate attorneys have been granted access to the tool. Galkin, the chief executive officer of the Riverside County Superior Court, said they are “kicking the tires on the product” to see what tasks it can do. The tool is not being used to draft tentative rulings, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985952\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985952\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston. OpenAI has introduced a new artificial intelligence model. It says it works faster than previous versions and can reason across text, audio and video in real time. \u003ccite>(Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We don’t even know if expansion is likely so there is no set criteria for what expansion might look like or thresholds for that because right now, the core question is: Does this help staff and does it advance what they’re trying to do in their roles?” said Galkin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As testing is underway, attorneys like Hochman say that use of AI is inevitable, but would be better suited for low-level, repetitive and routine tasks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s the analysis of the case itself, coupled with the conclusions that will be reached, that I’m very hesitant to trust AI at this point — in large part, because I don’t know all of the inputs that AI is using to make its decision. The only thing I’m 100% sure of is that AI didn’t go to law school,” said Hochman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cayla Mihalovich is a California Local News fellow.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/05/ai-los-angeles-riverside-courts/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Friday, May 22, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In California’s crowded race for governor, almost every candidate has made \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084487/how-californias-next-governor-would-tackle-rent-insurance-and-housing-costs\">housing affordability\u003c/a> a central part of their campaign. While the candidates have varied approaches on this issue, and there’s a lot they agree on, there are also some key differences. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers are expanding into water-stressed communities across California, like the Imperial Valley. At the same time, data center operators are using loopholes to hide \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/water/2026/05/california-data-centers-water-transparency/\">how much water these facilities are using.\u003c/a> These findings are from a new report backed by Santa Clara University and the think tank Next10.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084487/how-californias-next-governor-would-tackle-rent-insurance-and-housing-costs\">\u003cstrong>How California’s next governor would tackle rent, insurance and housing costs\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When it comes to affording rent or a home mortgage in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a>, every candidate in the race for governor seems to have a personal stake. Katie Porter wants her three teenage children to eventually move off her couch. Antonio Villaraigosa wants reliable home insurance. Matt Mahan doesn’t want to fight with his wife over their mortgage, as his parents did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the affordability crisis literally drives \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12078787/grass-is-really-greener-for-many-californians-leaving-the-state\">residents out\u003c/a> of the state, the candidates have made housing a central point of their campaigns. That’s a sea change from previous elections, said Laura Foote, executive director for YIMBY Action. “Everybody up there was expected to have a plan and demonstrate how they were going to execute on delivering more affordable housing in California,” she said. “That’s a crazily different place than we were eight years ago, 10 years ago.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each candidate is trying to stand out in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082125/inside-californias-billionaire-tax-fight-and-the-wide-open-governors-race\">most competitive primary\u003c/a> for California governor in two decades. But many are hitting the same broad talking points: lower the cost of construction, make homeownership more accessible and reduce homelessness. Where they differ is in the details of how they’ll get there. Meanwhile, some voters feel discouraged by key issues they say are missing. Katherine Peoples-McGill drove to Oakland from Altadena earlier this month to attend a debate sponsored by the Housing Action Coalition and other housing nonprofits. She runs the Rebuild Center for Altadenans, which assists survivors of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/la-fires\">2025 Los Angeles wildfires\u003c/a>. She was disappointed none of the candidates had visited her center, much less mentioned wildfires in their comments. “Altadena can happen anywhere in this country, anywhere in the state of California,” she said, “and for [the candidates] to really not be involved in that was a little shattering.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here are some of the key points that candidates are focusing on – Democratic candidates Katie Porter, billionaire Tom Steyer and former state attorney general Xavier Becerra have all argued that modular and factory-built construction could hasten building timelines and streamline the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other candidates are focusing on what the state can do now to incentivize and ease the path of traditional building methods. State Superintendent Tony Thurmond has campaigned on building 2 million affordable homes on school district-owned surplus property. Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco wants to end the “over-regulation of our building industry.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>British American political commentator Steve Hilton and Mahan, mayor of San Jose, have both talked about capping fees that cities often impose on developers to offset the impact of new development. A recent \u003ca href=\"https://ternercenter.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/LIHTCImpactFees2026.pdf\">study from UC Berkeley’s Terner Center for Housing Innovation\u003c/a> found that these “impact” fees contribute to less than 5% of total development costs, but can nonetheless deter it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When it comes to protecting the interests of renters, the candidates are divided on the best course. Steyer, Becerra, Villaraigosa and Thurmond have said they are in favor of some form of government-imposed rent caps, including extending and enforcing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069513/tenants-crushed-after-california-renter-protections-bill-stalls-in-the-legislature\">Tenant Protections Act\u003c/a>, a 2019 law that limits annual rent increases and restricts evictions. It’s set to expire in 2030, within the next governor’s term. But Porter, a former state representative, has bucked that trend. In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XO676pq-gg\">KQED Town Hall\u003c/a>, Porter said that she opposes rent control. And while she said she supports the Tenant Protection Act, she argued that it can slow down construction and force people to stay put, regardless of whether moving would benefit their family or lifestyle.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"entry-title \">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/water/2026/05/california-data-centers-water-transparency/\">\u003cstrong>Data centers are guzzling California’s water. We have no idea how much\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Data center builders don’t tell the public how much water they use, \u003ca href=\"https://www.next10.org/sites/default/files/2026-05/Data-Centers-Water-Use-Report_0.pdf\">according to a new report\u003c/a> — and the industry is encroaching into water-stressed and vulnerable communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The report, by the think tank Next10 and researchers at Santa Clara University, finds that planned data centers — the ganglia of artificial intelligence — are \u003ca href=\"https://investor.pgecorp.com/news-events/press-releases/press-release-details/2025/PGE-Data-Center-Demand-Pipeline-Swells-to-10-Gigawatts-with-Potential-to-Unlock-Billions-in-Benefits-for-California/default.aspx\">spreading\u003c/a> to regions reliant on overtapped groundwater and strained surface water, with potentially major effects in the Central and Imperial Valleys. But, reinforcing \u003ca href=\"https://www.law.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/archive/2026/02/Regulating-Data-Center-Water-Use-in-CA_Report_CLEE-2026.pdf\">previous studies,\u003c/a> the researchers found that a patchwork of state, federal and local policies allow data center operators to avoid publicly disclosing their actual water use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">California lawmakers tried to \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab93\">address\u003c/a> this last year, but California Gov. Gavin Newsom vetoed the measure. Now, the Legislature is trying again, with \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2619\">bills\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2469\">mandating\u003c/a> disclosures about water use and planning. “We have this huge build out, and we have very little data,” said \u003ca href=\"https://www.scu.edu/ethics/about-the-center/people/irina-raicu/\">Irina Raicu\u003c/a>, who directs the Internet Ethics program at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Few environmental impact reports for California’s data centers were publicly available online, the researchers found. Raicu and a team led by \u003ca href=\"https://www.scu.edu/cas/ess/faculty-and-staff/iris-stewart-frey/\">Iris Stewart-Frey\u003c/a>, a professor of environmental science and the main author of the study, went looking for the reports, \u003ca href=\"https://www.usbr.gov/mp/sod/projects/sisk/docs/esm/what-is-eis-eir.pdf\">meant to assess and disclose\u003c/a> a project’s impacts for both nature and people under the landmark California Environmental Quality Act. They found almost none. The ones they did find were largely for facilities in the city of Santa Clara.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Through interviews with planning officials, they discovered that projects can slip through with little environmental review if they fall under certain size or water use thresholds, or if they meet a city or county’s criteria for other approval pathways. These include something \u003ca href=\"https://www.cityofimperial.org/sites/default/files/NOE-Grading-Permit-63316-Initial-Study-%2325-0041(110625).pdf\">called ministerial approval\u003c/a>, which requires planning agencies to approve a project that meets local zoning and other standards. Even for data centers that undergo more stringent environmental scrutiny, the researchers found that documentation is rarely available to the public. In the few cases the planning documents were posted publicly, the information — on the data center’s owner or operator, size, type of cooling system, the amount of water used, whether it’s recycled or potable — was often “missing, contradictory, or vague,” the report said. The researchers said they contacted water providers in areas where data centers cluster, seeking usage data. None responded.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Friday, May 22, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In California’s crowded race for governor, almost every candidate has made \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084487/how-californias-next-governor-would-tackle-rent-insurance-and-housing-costs\">housing affordability\u003c/a> a central part of their campaign. While the candidates have varied approaches on this issue, and there’s a lot they agree on, there are also some key differences. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers are expanding into water-stressed communities across California, like the Imperial Valley. At the same time, data center operators are using loopholes to hide \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/water/2026/05/california-data-centers-water-transparency/\">how much water these facilities are using.\u003c/a> These findings are from a new report backed by Santa Clara University and the think tank Next10.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084487/how-californias-next-governor-would-tackle-rent-insurance-and-housing-costs\">\u003cstrong>How California’s next governor would tackle rent, insurance and housing costs\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When it comes to affording rent or a home mortgage in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a>, every candidate in the race for governor seems to have a personal stake. Katie Porter wants her three teenage children to eventually move off her couch. Antonio Villaraigosa wants reliable home insurance. Matt Mahan doesn’t want to fight with his wife over their mortgage, as his parents did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the affordability crisis literally drives \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12078787/grass-is-really-greener-for-many-californians-leaving-the-state\">residents out\u003c/a> of the state, the candidates have made housing a central point of their campaigns. That’s a sea change from previous elections, said Laura Foote, executive director for YIMBY Action. “Everybody up there was expected to have a plan and demonstrate how they were going to execute on delivering more affordable housing in California,” she said. “That’s a crazily different place than we were eight years ago, 10 years ago.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each candidate is trying to stand out in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082125/inside-californias-billionaire-tax-fight-and-the-wide-open-governors-race\">most competitive primary\u003c/a> for California governor in two decades. But many are hitting the same broad talking points: lower the cost of construction, make homeownership more accessible and reduce homelessness. Where they differ is in the details of how they’ll get there. Meanwhile, some voters feel discouraged by key issues they say are missing. Katherine Peoples-McGill drove to Oakland from Altadena earlier this month to attend a debate sponsored by the Housing Action Coalition and other housing nonprofits. She runs the Rebuild Center for Altadenans, which assists survivors of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/la-fires\">2025 Los Angeles wildfires\u003c/a>. She was disappointed none of the candidates had visited her center, much less mentioned wildfires in their comments. “Altadena can happen anywhere in this country, anywhere in the state of California,” she said, “and for [the candidates] to really not be involved in that was a little shattering.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here are some of the key points that candidates are focusing on – Democratic candidates Katie Porter, billionaire Tom Steyer and former state attorney general Xavier Becerra have all argued that modular and factory-built construction could hasten building timelines and streamline the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other candidates are focusing on what the state can do now to incentivize and ease the path of traditional building methods. State Superintendent Tony Thurmond has campaigned on building 2 million affordable homes on school district-owned surplus property. Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco wants to end the “over-regulation of our building industry.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>British American political commentator Steve Hilton and Mahan, mayor of San Jose, have both talked about capping fees that cities often impose on developers to offset the impact of new development. A recent \u003ca href=\"https://ternercenter.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/LIHTCImpactFees2026.pdf\">study from UC Berkeley’s Terner Center for Housing Innovation\u003c/a> found that these “impact” fees contribute to less than 5% of total development costs, but can nonetheless deter it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When it comes to protecting the interests of renters, the candidates are divided on the best course. Steyer, Becerra, Villaraigosa and Thurmond have said they are in favor of some form of government-imposed rent caps, including extending and enforcing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069513/tenants-crushed-after-california-renter-protections-bill-stalls-in-the-legislature\">Tenant Protections Act\u003c/a>, a 2019 law that limits annual rent increases and restricts evictions. It’s set to expire in 2030, within the next governor’s term. But Porter, a former state representative, has bucked that trend. In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XO676pq-gg\">KQED Town Hall\u003c/a>, Porter said that she opposes rent control. And while she said she supports the Tenant Protection Act, she argued that it can slow down construction and force people to stay put, regardless of whether moving would benefit their family or lifestyle.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"entry-title \">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/water/2026/05/california-data-centers-water-transparency/\">\u003cstrong>Data centers are guzzling California’s water. We have no idea how much\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Data center builders don’t tell the public how much water they use, \u003ca href=\"https://www.next10.org/sites/default/files/2026-05/Data-Centers-Water-Use-Report_0.pdf\">according to a new report\u003c/a> — and the industry is encroaching into water-stressed and vulnerable communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The report, by the think tank Next10 and researchers at Santa Clara University, finds that planned data centers — the ganglia of artificial intelligence — are \u003ca href=\"https://investor.pgecorp.com/news-events/press-releases/press-release-details/2025/PGE-Data-Center-Demand-Pipeline-Swells-to-10-Gigawatts-with-Potential-to-Unlock-Billions-in-Benefits-for-California/default.aspx\">spreading\u003c/a> to regions reliant on overtapped groundwater and strained surface water, with potentially major effects in the Central and Imperial Valleys. But, reinforcing \u003ca href=\"https://www.law.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/archive/2026/02/Regulating-Data-Center-Water-Use-in-CA_Report_CLEE-2026.pdf\">previous studies,\u003c/a> the researchers found that a patchwork of state, federal and local policies allow data center operators to avoid publicly disclosing their actual water use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">California lawmakers tried to \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab93\">address\u003c/a> this last year, but California Gov. Gavin Newsom vetoed the measure. Now, the Legislature is trying again, with \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2619\">bills\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2469\">mandating\u003c/a> disclosures about water use and planning. “We have this huge build out, and we have very little data,” said \u003ca href=\"https://www.scu.edu/ethics/about-the-center/people/irina-raicu/\">Irina Raicu\u003c/a>, who directs the Internet Ethics program at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Few environmental impact reports for California’s data centers were publicly available online, the researchers found. Raicu and a team led by \u003ca href=\"https://www.scu.edu/cas/ess/faculty-and-staff/iris-stewart-frey/\">Iris Stewart-Frey\u003c/a>, a professor of environmental science and the main author of the study, went looking for the reports, \u003ca href=\"https://www.usbr.gov/mp/sod/projects/sisk/docs/esm/what-is-eis-eir.pdf\">meant to assess and disclose\u003c/a> a project’s impacts for both nature and people under the landmark California Environmental Quality Act. They found almost none. The ones they did find were largely for facilities in the city of Santa Clara.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Through interviews with planning officials, they discovered that projects can slip through with little environmental review if they fall under certain size or water use thresholds, or if they meet a city or county’s criteria for other approval pathways. These include something \u003ca href=\"https://www.cityofimperial.org/sites/default/files/NOE-Grading-Permit-63316-Initial-Study-%2325-0041(110625).pdf\">called ministerial approval\u003c/a>, which requires planning agencies to approve a project that meets local zoning and other standards. Even for data centers that undergo more stringent environmental scrutiny, the researchers found that documentation is rarely available to the public. In the few cases the planning documents were posted publicly, the information — on the data center’s owner or operator, size, type of cooling system, the amount of water used, whether it’s recycled or potable — was often “missing, contradictory, or vague,” the report said. The researchers said they contacted water providers in areas where data centers cluster, seeking usage data. None responded.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gov-gavin-newsom\">Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> issued on Thursday what his office called a “first-of-its-kind”\u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/5.21.26-AI-Workforce-EO-FINAL-SIGNED.pdf\"> executive order\u003c/a> directing state agencies to prepare workers and businesses for artificial intelligence-driven workforce disruption.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California has never sat back and watched as the future happened to us — and we won’t start now,” Newsom said, in a statement accompanying the order. “We have taken the lead on advancing innovation, safety, and transparency. But we must think bigger. This moment demands that we reimagine the entire system — how we work, how we govern, how we prepare people for the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The order mandates agencies to explore a range of policy options, including severance standards, expanded unemployment insurance, job retraining programs aimed specifically at white-collar workers, worker ownership models and a concept the governor called “universal basic capital,” giving all residents a stake in assets such as corporate stocks, bonds or wealth funds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The move reflects \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079472/stanford-study-ai-experts-are-optimistic-about-ai-the-rest-of-us-not-so-much\">growing tension among Americans\u003c/a> over how AI is disrupting their \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">personal lives\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076726/ai-is-changing-tech-work-heres-why-it-matters-for-the-rest-of-us\">jobs\u003c/a>, even as many business leaders continue to express optimism about the technology’s capabilities. Layoffs tied to AI are snowballing across many sectors of the economy, including Silicon Valley, and labor leaders are growing increasingly impatient with the governor’s cautious approach to regulating the industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this week, Meta announced it was laying off roughly 8,000 workers, about 10% of its workforce, as the company accelerates its shift toward AI. Intel, Cisco, Amazon and other tech giants have also dramatically reduced their headcounts in recent months, citing the need to shift spending to AI-focused employees and data center construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic co-founder Dario Amodei has predicted that roughly half of all white-collar jobs could disappear within five years. Most other tech leaders disagree with the specific timeline but broadly agree that AI will displace white-collar workers in engineering, communications and law in the near future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12055158\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12055158\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AnthropicAIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AnthropicAIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AnthropicAIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AnthropicAIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left to right: Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei, Chief Product Officer Mike Krieger and Head of Communications Sasha de Marigny give a press conference during Anthropic’s first developer conference in San Francisco, California, on May 22, 2025. \u003ccite>(Julie Jammot/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The economic logic driving those cuts has alarmed policymakers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/CAgovernor/status/2057507319139750057\"> posted to the social media platform X\u003c/a> shortly after signing: “California will pursue new policies that make sure working Californians — not just Big Tech — benefit from the wealth and breakthroughs coming out of this space.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom telegraphed Thursday’s order earlier this week, when he appeared at the Center for American Progress IDEAS Conference in Washington. “Businesses are going to make a fortune, and that’s why you cannot continue to have a payroll tax system that taxes jobs and then subsidizes automation,” Newsom said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tom Kemp, executive director of the California Privacy Protection Agency, applauded the fact that the order named data privacy as a consumer protection concern and highlighted the CPPA’s automated decision-making technology regulations, which he called “the nation’s most comprehensive.”[aside postID=news_12084499 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/TeenagersMetaSocialMediaGetty.jpg']Others are more skeptical. “\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Catastrophic job loss from AI is not inevitable, it’s a political choice\u003c/span>,” Lorena Gonzalez, president of the California Federation of Labor Unions, AFL-CIO, wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Gonzalez noted one area of genuine agreement: the order’s emphasis on collective bargaining as a tool for protecting workers from AI displacement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That database of AI provisions in collective bargaining agreements exists, and we have introduced bills that mirror those protections over the past few years,” she wrote, going on to chide the governor for vetoing a number of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079472/stanford-study-ai-experts-are-optimistic-about-ai-the-rest-of-us-not-so-much\">Stanford HAI’s 2026 AI Index\u003c/a>, software developers ages 22 to 25 are among those most likely to see their skills made redundant earliest. This year, U.S. employment fell nearly 20% from 2024, even as headcount for older developers continued to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Following the job cuts announced at Meta, a union of Alphabet workers in the U.S. and Canada released a statement that suggests Silicon Valley’s own labor force may seek to organize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As Big Tech companies attempt to nudge ahead of each other in the AI race, our daily work lives are shifting,” Alphabet Workers Union-CWA Local 9009 said in a statement. “It’s undeniable that our whole industry is being transformed by the corporate push to adopt new AI tools. It’s hard not to feel anxiety and fear when we can see more and more tech companies cutting huge portions of their workforce both in anticipation of replacing them with AI, and to fund their multi-billion-dollar bets on AI as the future of the industry.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036125\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Meta declined to comment, and Anthropic, OpenAI, DeepMind and Amazon did not respond in time for this report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In February, AFL-CIO President Liz Shuler and Gonzalez delivered what amounted to an ultimatum to Newsom: regulate AI or lose labor’s support for any future presidential run. Shuler called a potential AI-driven economic collapse a coming “crisis.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In August 2025, Newsom announced a\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12051433/california-teams-with-google-microsoft-ibm-adobe-to-prepare-students-for-ai-era\"> partnership with Google, Microsoft, IBM and Adobe\u003c/a> to expand AI education in California schools and community colleges, a workforce preparation push that now looks like a precursor to Thursday’s more sweeping order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom also announced the statewide expansion of Engaged California, a digital platform originally launched to help coordinate recovery after the 2025 Los Angeles wildfires, which will now be used to gather public input on AI’s impact on the workforce.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A backdrop of federal inaction\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Newsom’s order comes as President Donald Trump on Thursday announced he was postponing signing a long-anticipated AI executive order, telling reporters, “I didn’t like what I was seeing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The planned federal order would have created a system for the government to vet powerful new AI models before public release, a process the administration had been negotiating with Anthropic, OpenAI, Google and xAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074482\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074482\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/GettyImages-2262729717-scaled-e1773182284895.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1413\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">President Donald Trump speaks during a press briefing at the White House on Feb. 20, 2026, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Chen Mengtong/China News Service/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Trump has argued that aggressive AI oversight could hobble the United States in its technology competition with China, calling AI “a critical engine of the economy.” He told reporters he discussed AI safeguards with Chinese President Xi Jinping during a recent trip to China.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it remains unclear whether the federal administration will allow California and other states to take dramatic action as AI reshapes the American labor force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In December 2025, Trump faced\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066910/trumps-ai-order-provokes-pushback-from-california-officials-and-consumer-advocates\"> backlash\u003c/a> from California officials and consumer advocates after he issued an executive order curtailing states’ ability to regulate AI, though the order didn’t directly preempt state AI laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gov-gavin-newsom\">Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> issued on Thursday what his office called a “first-of-its-kind”\u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/5.21.26-AI-Workforce-EO-FINAL-SIGNED.pdf\"> executive order\u003c/a> directing state agencies to prepare workers and businesses for artificial intelligence-driven workforce disruption.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California has never sat back and watched as the future happened to us — and we won’t start now,” Newsom said, in a statement accompanying the order. “We have taken the lead on advancing innovation, safety, and transparency. But we must think bigger. This moment demands that we reimagine the entire system — how we work, how we govern, how we prepare people for the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The order mandates agencies to explore a range of policy options, including severance standards, expanded unemployment insurance, job retraining programs aimed specifically at white-collar workers, worker ownership models and a concept the governor called “universal basic capital,” giving all residents a stake in assets such as corporate stocks, bonds or wealth funds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The move reflects \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079472/stanford-study-ai-experts-are-optimistic-about-ai-the-rest-of-us-not-so-much\">growing tension among Americans\u003c/a> over how AI is disrupting their \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">personal lives\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076726/ai-is-changing-tech-work-heres-why-it-matters-for-the-rest-of-us\">jobs\u003c/a>, even as many business leaders continue to express optimism about the technology’s capabilities. Layoffs tied to AI are snowballing across many sectors of the economy, including Silicon Valley, and labor leaders are growing increasingly impatient with the governor’s cautious approach to regulating the industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this week, Meta announced it was laying off roughly 8,000 workers, about 10% of its workforce, as the company accelerates its shift toward AI. Intel, Cisco, Amazon and other tech giants have also dramatically reduced their headcounts in recent months, citing the need to shift spending to AI-focused employees and data center construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic co-founder Dario Amodei has predicted that roughly half of all white-collar jobs could disappear within five years. Most other tech leaders disagree with the specific timeline but broadly agree that AI will displace white-collar workers in engineering, communications and law in the near future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12055158\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12055158\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AnthropicAIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AnthropicAIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AnthropicAIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AnthropicAIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left to right: Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei, Chief Product Officer Mike Krieger and Head of Communications Sasha de Marigny give a press conference during Anthropic’s first developer conference in San Francisco, California, on May 22, 2025. \u003ccite>(Julie Jammot/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The economic logic driving those cuts has alarmed policymakers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/CAgovernor/status/2057507319139750057\"> posted to the social media platform X\u003c/a> shortly after signing: “California will pursue new policies that make sure working Californians — not just Big Tech — benefit from the wealth and breakthroughs coming out of this space.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom telegraphed Thursday’s order earlier this week, when he appeared at the Center for American Progress IDEAS Conference in Washington. “Businesses are going to make a fortune, and that’s why you cannot continue to have a payroll tax system that taxes jobs and then subsidizes automation,” Newsom said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tom Kemp, executive director of the California Privacy Protection Agency, applauded the fact that the order named data privacy as a consumer protection concern and highlighted the CPPA’s automated decision-making technology regulations, which he called “the nation’s most comprehensive.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Others are more skeptical. “\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Catastrophic job loss from AI is not inevitable, it’s a political choice\u003c/span>,” Lorena Gonzalez, president of the California Federation of Labor Unions, AFL-CIO, wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Gonzalez noted one area of genuine agreement: the order’s emphasis on collective bargaining as a tool for protecting workers from AI displacement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That database of AI provisions in collective bargaining agreements exists, and we have introduced bills that mirror those protections over the past few years,” she wrote, going on to chide the governor for vetoing a number of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079472/stanford-study-ai-experts-are-optimistic-about-ai-the-rest-of-us-not-so-much\">Stanford HAI’s 2026 AI Index\u003c/a>, software developers ages 22 to 25 are among those most likely to see their skills made redundant earliest. This year, U.S. employment fell nearly 20% from 2024, even as headcount for older developers continued to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Following the job cuts announced at Meta, a union of Alphabet workers in the U.S. and Canada released a statement that suggests Silicon Valley’s own labor force may seek to organize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As Big Tech companies attempt to nudge ahead of each other in the AI race, our daily work lives are shifting,” Alphabet Workers Union-CWA Local 9009 said in a statement. “It’s undeniable that our whole industry is being transformed by the corporate push to adopt new AI tools. It’s hard not to feel anxiety and fear when we can see more and more tech companies cutting huge portions of their workforce both in anticipation of replacing them with AI, and to fund their multi-billion-dollar bets on AI as the future of the industry.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036125\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Meta declined to comment, and Anthropic, OpenAI, DeepMind and Amazon did not respond in time for this report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In February, AFL-CIO President Liz Shuler and Gonzalez delivered what amounted to an ultimatum to Newsom: regulate AI or lose labor’s support for any future presidential run. Shuler called a potential AI-driven economic collapse a coming “crisis.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In August 2025, Newsom announced a\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12051433/california-teams-with-google-microsoft-ibm-adobe-to-prepare-students-for-ai-era\"> partnership with Google, Microsoft, IBM and Adobe\u003c/a> to expand AI education in California schools and community colleges, a workforce preparation push that now looks like a precursor to Thursday’s more sweeping order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom also announced the statewide expansion of Engaged California, a digital platform originally launched to help coordinate recovery after the 2025 Los Angeles wildfires, which will now be used to gather public input on AI’s impact on the workforce.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A backdrop of federal inaction\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Newsom’s order comes as President Donald Trump on Thursday announced he was postponing signing a long-anticipated AI executive order, telling reporters, “I didn’t like what I was seeing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The planned federal order would have created a system for the government to vet powerful new AI models before public release, a process the administration had been negotiating with Anthropic, OpenAI, Google and xAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074482\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074482\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/GettyImages-2262729717-scaled-e1773182284895.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1413\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">President Donald Trump speaks during a press briefing at the White House on Feb. 20, 2026, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Chen Mengtong/China News Service/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Trump has argued that aggressive AI oversight could hobble the United States in its technology competition with China, calling AI “a critical engine of the economy.” He told reporters he discussed AI safeguards with Chinese President Xi Jinping during a recent trip to China.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it remains unclear whether the federal administration will allow California and other states to take dramatic action as AI reshapes the American labor force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In December 2025, Trump faced\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066910/trumps-ai-order-provokes-pushback-from-california-officials-and-consumer-advocates\"> backlash\u003c/a> from California officials and consumer advocates after he issued an executive order curtailing states’ ability to regulate AI, though the order didn’t directly preempt state AI laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Federal Court Rules Against Elon Musk in His Bitter Feud With Sam Altman",
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"content": "\u003cp>Elon Musk’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081290/how-to-unscramble-an-omelet-in-silicon-valley-the-musk-v-altman-trial-that-will-try\">lawsuit against his OpenAI co-founders\u003c/a> has been rejected by a federal judge in Oakland, who found his claims were outside the statute of limitations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk, who helped form OpenAI as a nonprofit in 2015, had alleged that co-founders Sam Altman and Greg Brockman violated the company’s original nonprofit mission to create safe and open-source artificial intelligence in order to enrich themselves. An Oakland jury took just a few hours to declare that Musk’s claim came too late. U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers, who had the final say in the case, agreed with the jury’s advisory verdict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The finding of the jury confirms that what this lawsuit was, was a hypocritical attempt to sabotage a competitor and to overcome a long history of very bad predictions about what OpenAI has been and will become,” Altman’s lead counsel, William Savitt, told reporters outside the courthouse Monday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The verdict comes after a weekslong blockbuster trial in Silicon Valley, in which the Tesla CEO accused Altman and Brockman of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081603/elon-musk-takes-aim-at-openai-as-trial-begins-its-not-ok-to-steal-a-charity\">“stealing a charity\u003c/a>” as they built a more than $850 million company on the back of their nonprofit. Court documents and testimony from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083224/former-openai-exec-calls-decision-to-remove-sam-altman-a-hail-mary-during-musk-trial\">a score of tech elites\u003c/a>, including Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, shed light on the rise of OpenAI — as well as on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083278/sam-altman-defends-himself-from-elon-musks-accusations-in-openai-trial\">the interpersonal strife\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083612/lawyers-for-elon-musk-and-sam-altman-make-their-final-case-in-openai-trial\">falling out between Altman and Musk\u003c/a>, who were once close friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s high-profile testimony in the case also raised questions over Altman’s trustworthiness and leadership as the company pursues artificial general intelligence, a superintelligent form of AI and a potential trillion-dollar initial public offering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084143\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084143\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The verdict is read in the trial in which Elon Musk claimed that Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity rather than solely for profit in Oakland on May 18, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Altman’s defense argued that OpenAI had to form a profit-generating arm to keep up with competitors as AI technology advanced. They said that prior to leaving OpenAI, Musk was amenable to creating a for-profit, which he wanted to control. When other executives refused to agree to his terms, he left the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Monday’s verdict disregarded many of the trial’s revelations, and instead hinged on the timeline of Musk’s claims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury agreed with OpenAI’s defense that Musk missed the statute of limitations to allege a breach of charitable trust. They also dismissed a claim that Microsoft, OpenAI’s largest investor, aided and abetted a breach of charitable trust.[aside postID=news_12083612 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/OpenAILawyerGetty.jpg']Sarah Eddy, an attorney for OpenAI, noted in her closing argument that Musk departed the company in 2018, watched it build up a for-profit arm beginning in 2019 and made his final monetary contribution the year after that. Yet, he waited until 2024, after he’d launched a competing AI enterprise, to bring his suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She called the case a “textbook” example of why the statute of limitations exists, saying that when Musk made his last contribution and testified that he became suspicious of a breach of charitable trust in 2020, he “started the clock.” According to Eddy, Musk should have sued by 2022 at the latest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s counsel, Marc Toberoff, said there was a strong basis for appeal based on the legal components, statute of limitations aside. Musk also wrote on X, which he owns, that he planned to file an appeal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no question to anyone following the case in detail that Altman & Brockman did in fact enrich themselves by stealing a charity. The only question is WHEN they did it!” he wrote. “Creating a precedent to loot charities is incredibly destructive to charitable giving in America.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Outside the court, anti-AI protesters who have been present for much of the trial decried the decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“No matter who won, we all lost,” said Phoebe Thomas Sorgen, an activist with StopAI, which seeks to “disrupt the reckless development of destructive” AI tech, according to its website. “We all lost. Sam Altman won, but look at who he is and what he’s doing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Elon Musk’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081290/how-to-unscramble-an-omelet-in-silicon-valley-the-musk-v-altman-trial-that-will-try\">lawsuit against his OpenAI co-founders\u003c/a> has been rejected by a federal judge in Oakland, who found his claims were outside the statute of limitations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk, who helped form OpenAI as a nonprofit in 2015, had alleged that co-founders Sam Altman and Greg Brockman violated the company’s original nonprofit mission to create safe and open-source artificial intelligence in order to enrich themselves. An Oakland jury took just a few hours to declare that Musk’s claim came too late. U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers, who had the final say in the case, agreed with the jury’s advisory verdict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The finding of the jury confirms that what this lawsuit was, was a hypocritical attempt to sabotage a competitor and to overcome a long history of very bad predictions about what OpenAI has been and will become,” Altman’s lead counsel, William Savitt, told reporters outside the courthouse Monday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The verdict comes after a weekslong blockbuster trial in Silicon Valley, in which the Tesla CEO accused Altman and Brockman of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081603/elon-musk-takes-aim-at-openai-as-trial-begins-its-not-ok-to-steal-a-charity\">“stealing a charity\u003c/a>” as they built a more than $850 million company on the back of their nonprofit. Court documents and testimony from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083224/former-openai-exec-calls-decision-to-remove-sam-altman-a-hail-mary-during-musk-trial\">a score of tech elites\u003c/a>, including Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, shed light on the rise of OpenAI — as well as on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083278/sam-altman-defends-himself-from-elon-musks-accusations-in-openai-trial\">the interpersonal strife\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083612/lawyers-for-elon-musk-and-sam-altman-make-their-final-case-in-openai-trial\">falling out between Altman and Musk\u003c/a>, who were once close friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s high-profile testimony in the case also raised questions over Altman’s trustworthiness and leadership as the company pursues artificial general intelligence, a superintelligent form of AI and a potential trillion-dollar initial public offering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084143\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084143\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260518-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The verdict is read in the trial in which Elon Musk claimed that Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity rather than solely for profit in Oakland on May 18, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Altman’s defense argued that OpenAI had to form a profit-generating arm to keep up with competitors as AI technology advanced. They said that prior to leaving OpenAI, Musk was amenable to creating a for-profit, which he wanted to control. When other executives refused to agree to his terms, he left the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Monday’s verdict disregarded many of the trial’s revelations, and instead hinged on the timeline of Musk’s claims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury agreed with OpenAI’s defense that Musk missed the statute of limitations to allege a breach of charitable trust. They also dismissed a claim that Microsoft, OpenAI’s largest investor, aided and abetted a breach of charitable trust.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Sarah Eddy, an attorney for OpenAI, noted in her closing argument that Musk departed the company in 2018, watched it build up a for-profit arm beginning in 2019 and made his final monetary contribution the year after that. Yet, he waited until 2024, after he’d launched a competing AI enterprise, to bring his suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She called the case a “textbook” example of why the statute of limitations exists, saying that when Musk made his last contribution and testified that he became suspicious of a breach of charitable trust in 2020, he “started the clock.” According to Eddy, Musk should have sued by 2022 at the latest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s counsel, Marc Toberoff, said there was a strong basis for appeal based on the legal components, statute of limitations aside. Musk also wrote on X, which he owns, that he planned to file an appeal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no question to anyone following the case in detail that Altman & Brockman did in fact enrich themselves by stealing a charity. The only question is WHEN they did it!” he wrote. “Creating a precedent to loot charities is incredibly destructive to charitable giving in America.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Outside the court, anti-AI protesters who have been present for much of the trial decried the decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“No matter who won, we all lost,” said Phoebe Thomas Sorgen, an activist with StopAI, which seeks to “disrupt the reckless development of destructive” AI tech, according to its website. “We all lost. Sam Altman won, but look at who he is and what he’s doing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Lawyers for Elon Musk and Sam Altman Make Their Final Case in OpenAI Trial",
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"content": "\u003cp>Whether \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> CEO \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/sam-altman\">Sam Altman\u003c/a> and other executives betrayed their commitment to building a safe, open-source artificial intelligence, slighting billionaire Elon Musk in the process, will be decided by an Oakland jury and judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For weeks, the tech executives have sparred in federal court over whether the startup, first proposed by Altman to Musk as a sort of AI “Manhattan Project,” has abandoned its original mission to enrich itself. Musk, who provided $38 million in early funding, has accused his former OpenAI co-founders Altman and Greg Brockman of “stealing a charity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s executives, on the other hand, have said Musk only sued after he brought his own AI competitor, xAI, onto the market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During his closing statement, Musk’s lead counsel, Steven Molo, focused on Altman’s credibility. He asked the jury to consider hypothetically what they would do if they came upon a bridge, suspended 150 feet above a river, and built on Altman’s “version of the truth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Would you walk across that bridge?” He asked. “I don’t think many people would.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo said that in the early years of OpenAI, the intent was to create a technology “for the good of the world.” He pointed to Musk’s early fears of the dangers of artificial general intelligence, or AGI, an early mission statement that said OpenAI would not be constrained by a need to generate financial return and correspondence between Altman and Musk that expressed support by both of them for a nonprofit structure and safety-focused mission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081686\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There was no disagreement over the core mission,” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, he said, since OpenAI launched a for-profit subsidiary in 2019 — after Musk departed — Altman and his fellow executives have treated the nonprofit as a “shell,” transferring intellectual property and the vast majority of employees to the for-profit arm of the company. In 2023, Molo continued, after OpenAI made a $10 billion deal with Microsoft, the company failed to prioritize safety, abandoned its commitment to open sourcing and “enriched investors and insiders.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re motivated by money: Microsoft and Altman,” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella testified that the company had invested $13 billion and expects to see a return of about $92 billion. Molo also pointed out that other executives, including Brockman and founding OpenAI computer scientist Ilya Sutskever, testified to having billions in equity, despite not investing in the company.[aside postID=news_12083278 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-03-KQED.jpg']Altman’s attorneys argued that Musk’s case was baseless: not only was Molo’s characterization false, but they argued, the larger issue is that Musk’s contributions to OpenAI — in the form of rent payments, Tesla Model 3 cars and $25 million in quarterly donations — were never accompanied by specific promises for their use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If the donations came with no strings attached, then Mr. Musk does not have a charitable trust to enforce,” Sarah Eddy, an attorney for OpenAI’s defendants, said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She and Altman’s lead counsel, William Savitt, also spent much of their closing arguments painting Musk as not wanting to protect humanity from AGI, as he’s suggested, but wanting to be the one who controls it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They allege Musk brought his suit after he tried to wrest control of a potential for-profit arm of OpenAI, and later absorb the organization into Tesla, in 2017. The executives had begun discussing a for-profit expansion that year to solicit more funding for top talent and “compute” to compete with other industry leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk departed OpenAI in February 2018, after a falling-out with the other executives over those discussions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12075382\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12075382\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A courtroom sketch of Elon Musk on the stand as he’s questioned by the plaintiff’s attorney, Aaron P. Arnzen, on March 4, 2026. Musk is accused of making false and misleading statements that drove down Twitter’s stock price before he bought the social media platform for $44 billion in 2022. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Shortly after, OpenAI decided to introduce a for-profit public benefit corporation. It has since become a $850 billion company, and is considering an initial public offering estimated at up to a trillion dollars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s attorneys alleged that Musk saw OpenAI’s skyrocketing success and filed his suit to destroy a competitor in the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The truth is that Mr. Musk wanted a for-profit AI, and he wanted to dominate it,” Eddy said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury is set to begin deliberations on Monday. If they side with Musk, OpenAI and Microsoft could owe $150 billion in damages to be redirected to the nonprofit foundation, along with a court order dismantling OpenAI’s for-profit structure and removal of Altman and Brockman from their posts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12083616\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12083616\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/Gonzalez-Rogers-Yvonne.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/Gonzalez-Rogers-Yvonne.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/Gonzalez-Rogers-Yvonne-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/Gonzalez-Rogers-Yvonne-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Daily Journal)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The jury will not have the final say, though. In a rare, but not unprecedented, move, U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers will have the ultimate right to rule on the claims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Charlie Bullock, a senior research fellow at the Institute for Law and AI, this is because most times, “equitable claims” — breach of charitable trust and unjust enrichment — which involve non-monetary remedies, are decided by a judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this case, Gonzalez Rogers elected to have an advisory jury, and Bullock said that typically, judges choose to go along with their decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Whether \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> CEO \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/sam-altman\">Sam Altman\u003c/a> and other executives betrayed their commitment to building a safe, open-source artificial intelligence, slighting billionaire Elon Musk in the process, will be decided by an Oakland jury and judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For weeks, the tech executives have sparred in federal court over whether the startup, first proposed by Altman to Musk as a sort of AI “Manhattan Project,” has abandoned its original mission to enrich itself. Musk, who provided $38 million in early funding, has accused his former OpenAI co-founders Altman and Greg Brockman of “stealing a charity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s executives, on the other hand, have said Musk only sued after he brought his own AI competitor, xAI, onto the market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During his closing statement, Musk’s lead counsel, Steven Molo, focused on Altman’s credibility. He asked the jury to consider hypothetically what they would do if they came upon a bridge, suspended 150 feet above a river, and built on Altman’s “version of the truth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Would you walk across that bridge?” He asked. “I don’t think many people would.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo said that in the early years of OpenAI, the intent was to create a technology “for the good of the world.” He pointed to Musk’s early fears of the dangers of artificial general intelligence, or AGI, an early mission statement that said OpenAI would not be constrained by a need to generate financial return and correspondence between Altman and Musk that expressed support by both of them for a nonprofit structure and safety-focused mission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081686\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There was no disagreement over the core mission,” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, he said, since OpenAI launched a for-profit subsidiary in 2019 — after Musk departed — Altman and his fellow executives have treated the nonprofit as a “shell,” transferring intellectual property and the vast majority of employees to the for-profit arm of the company. In 2023, Molo continued, after OpenAI made a $10 billion deal with Microsoft, the company failed to prioritize safety, abandoned its commitment to open sourcing and “enriched investors and insiders.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re motivated by money: Microsoft and Altman,” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella testified that the company had invested $13 billion and expects to see a return of about $92 billion. Molo also pointed out that other executives, including Brockman and founding OpenAI computer scientist Ilya Sutskever, testified to having billions in equity, despite not investing in the company.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Altman’s attorneys argued that Musk’s case was baseless: not only was Molo’s characterization false, but they argued, the larger issue is that Musk’s contributions to OpenAI — in the form of rent payments, Tesla Model 3 cars and $25 million in quarterly donations — were never accompanied by specific promises for their use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If the donations came with no strings attached, then Mr. Musk does not have a charitable trust to enforce,” Sarah Eddy, an attorney for OpenAI’s defendants, said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She and Altman’s lead counsel, William Savitt, also spent much of their closing arguments painting Musk as not wanting to protect humanity from AGI, as he’s suggested, but wanting to be the one who controls it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They allege Musk brought his suit after he tried to wrest control of a potential for-profit arm of OpenAI, and later absorb the organization into Tesla, in 2017. The executives had begun discussing a for-profit expansion that year to solicit more funding for top talent and “compute” to compete with other industry leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk departed OpenAI in February 2018, after a falling-out with the other executives over those discussions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12075382\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12075382\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A courtroom sketch of Elon Musk on the stand as he’s questioned by the plaintiff’s attorney, Aaron P. Arnzen, on March 4, 2026. Musk is accused of making false and misleading statements that drove down Twitter’s stock price before he bought the social media platform for $44 billion in 2022. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Shortly after, OpenAI decided to introduce a for-profit public benefit corporation. It has since become a $850 billion company, and is considering an initial public offering estimated at up to a trillion dollars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s attorneys alleged that Musk saw OpenAI’s skyrocketing success and filed his suit to destroy a competitor in the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The truth is that Mr. Musk wanted a for-profit AI, and he wanted to dominate it,” Eddy said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury is set to begin deliberations on Monday. If they side with Musk, OpenAI and Microsoft could owe $150 billion in damages to be redirected to the nonprofit foundation, along with a court order dismantling OpenAI’s for-profit structure and removal of Altman and Brockman from their posts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12083616\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12083616\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/Gonzalez-Rogers-Yvonne.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/Gonzalez-Rogers-Yvonne.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/Gonzalez-Rogers-Yvonne-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/Gonzalez-Rogers-Yvonne-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Daily Journal)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The jury will not have the final say, though. In a rare, but not unprecedented, move, U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers will have the ultimate right to rule on the claims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Charlie Bullock, a senior research fellow at the Institute for Law and AI, this is because most times, “equitable claims” — breach of charitable trust and unjust enrichment — which involve non-monetary remedies, are decided by a judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this case, Gonzalez Rogers elected to have an advisory jury, and Bullock said that typically, judges choose to go along with their decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "how-an-onlyfans-model-and-a-cosplayer-are-fighting-nonconsensual-deepfake-porn",
"title": "How an OnlyFans Model and a Cosplayer Are Fighting Nonconsensual Deepfake Porn",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">diving into the world of nonconsensual deepfake porn and why this problem reaches far beyond influencers and sex workers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When users on X started asking Grok to generate explicit images of real women and girls without their consent, Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator Morgpie watched the harassment spiral in real time. Cosplayer and software engineer Zander Small saw firsthand how nonconsensual images affected his girlfriend, a SFW creator, and her friends. The two decided to team up to build tools that help creators detect leaks, remove deepfakes, and reclaim control over their images online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and nonconsensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5643980688\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bigguswombus/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgpie\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, OnlyFans creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/zander_smalls/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander Small\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">content creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dexerto.com/twitch/influencers-take-on-ai-deepfakes-with-new-creator-protection-agency-3324719/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers take on AI deepfakes with their own creator protection agency\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Virginia Glaze, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dextero\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/musks-ai-chatbot-grok-xai-making-sexual-deepfakes-imagine-rcna265855\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk’s Grok AI chatbot is still making sexual deepfakes, despite X’s promise to stop it\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Ingram, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NBC News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/deepfake-nudify-schools-global-crisis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Deepfake Nudes Crisis in Schools Is Much Worse Than You Thought\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matt Burgess, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://19thnews.org/2025/05/take-it-down-act-signing-explicit-images\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take It Down Act: How to use it to remove revenge porn\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jasmine Mithani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 19th\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/rainns-recommendations-for-legislators/image-based-sexual-abuse-laws-combat-nonconsensual-ai-deepfakes/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Image-Based Sexual Abuse Laws: Combat Nonconsensual AI Deepfakes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/get-informed/issues/ai-tech-enabled-sexual-abuse/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI & Tech-Enabled Sexual Abuse: Risk & Prevention\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://deepstrike.io/blog/deepfake-statistics-2025\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deepfake Statistics 2025: AI Fraud Data & Trends\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Mohammed Khalil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeepStrike\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you closing your tabs? You can be honest, this is a safe space. If you’re a fan of Close All Tabs and you want more of it, then please rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us. It would be such a huge help to get the word out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s get to the show. Just a note, this episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and non-consensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know Grok? It’s the AI chatbot integrated with X, the social media app formerly known as Twitter and now owned by Elon Musk. Well, since late last year, Grok has been embroiled in an undressing scandal, generating sexually explicit images of people without their consent. The majority of targets were women. Some were minors, young girls. For a few weeks, it was a pretty disgusting widespread trend. When women or even teenage girls posted fully clothed photos of themselves on X, other users would comment and tag Grok, asking it to ‘put her in a bikini’ or ‘take off her top.’ The chatbot would publicly respond with a generated lewd or completely naked image of the subject. Some users went even further, asking Grok to add blood and bruises, prompting the chatbot to generate graphic, sexually violent images of these women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh man, it was very much like I was waking up every day and I didn’t want to post.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Morgpie, a Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator. People who know her IRL call her Morgan. She’s been a porn actress for years, and as someone who makes sexually explicit content, she’s used to creeps harassing her with her own nudes. But the Grok and dressing trend really unsettled her. It was the worst in January.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being looped in with something that is so violating, and like you said, something that’s even affecting minors is just disgusting. Every day I was going into my comments and just like hiding replies and blocking because I’m like, I’m not going to let you guys just generate these images of me that I did not consent to, especially if it’s being associated with basically creating child pornography on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was non-consensual, intimate imagery, more commonly known as deep fake porn. A deep fake is content that has been generated or manipulated by AI to imitate someone else. Zander Small, another content creator and a friend of Morgan’s, says that the proliferation of AI tools has started to seriously affect content creators, regardless of whether or not they make adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep fakes can be anything from deep fake explicit imagery with like, a creator doing something or nude content that they didn’t consent to. Or it could be stuff as simple as like, an audio deep fake where a creator is saying something that they don’t consent too, which might have repercussions of them being canceled or stuff that they just obviously wouldn’t consent to saying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of herself as much. After years of being in this industry, she’s developed thick skin. She’s mostly dealt with leaks, or explicit content that she posted behind a paywall that was illegally downloaded and posted elsewhere, without her consent. But the Grok trend is just the tip of the iceberg. Non-consensual deep fake-porn has exploded over the last few years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for a lot of people, the lack of consent is very attractive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is an issue that overwhelmingly affects women, and these circles are not as fringe as you might think. An annual report last year by the cybersecurity firm DeepStrike found that roughly 97% of all deepfakes online fall under non-consensual intimate imagery, and that 99 to 100% of victims of deepfake pornography are women. Here’s Zander again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it is either fans, if you want to call them that, or just creeps on the internet, wanting to see more out of a creator than they consented to. I know it affects a lot of SFW creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFW, or Safe for Work. They don’t show nudity or make sexually explicit content. While NSFW, not Safer work, means adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you know, and I guess from that, you know, if a creator isn’t consenting to do more explicit content, then, you know, these, uh, I guess perpetrators, creeps, whatever you want to call them, you know, take into their hands to do it themselves. And it’s incredibly easy to deep fake content and, you know, as models get better and better and they get quicker and quicker, it doesn’t really require as much of sophisticated technology to run these models.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the mainstream models, ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, have guardrails that are supposed to prevent them from generating deep fake porn. In January, X announced that it implemented technological measures to prevent Grok from modifying images of real people in revealing clothing. But there are ways to get around these guardraills. Just last month, NBC News reported that Grok is still generating deep-fake porn of real women. And like Zander said, there are so many other models out there that just don’t have these guardrails in the first place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of himself, but he’s seen how much it’s affected people he’s close to, other safer work creators who don’t make explicit content. And Morgan, coming from the porn industry, has seen how this issue affects her fellow adult content creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So late last year, they teamed up to come up with a solution for other creators. Today, we’re diving into the seedy reality of non-consensual deepfake porn, when it got so bad, why it’s so hard to stop, and how two Gen Z content creators are trying to tackle it. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open our first tab: the reality of non-consensual deep fake porn. Morgan is an award-winning porn creator. Literally, she has multiple Pornhub awards. And when she started years ago, the internet was very different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting because when I first started, the climate was very much like, if you opened up Twitter, you would see tweets that are like, ‘sex work is real work.’ Of course, this was kind of around the time when OnlyFans was only just emerging barely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the world of adult content, there was before OnlyFans, and then there’s after OnlyFans. The platform completely changed the game, lowering the barrier of entry for new creators and giving them new options to monetize their content. Morgan said that before OnlyFans blew up, the only way to make a living as an independent porn creator was to land on the front page of Pornhub, or actresses had to break into the industry by being part of studio productions where they didn’t have as much autonomy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting the shift between whenever porn was basically widely available, you didn’t really have to pay much for it. When I first started, I was uploading to Pornhub, and that was full length, full scenes that you could see for free at any time. Whereas now, the climate has shifted a lot to where creators like myself have a lot more control. So we’re able to, you know, use OnlyFans as a platform where we are more connected with our audience and that is actually the main pull. Now we’re in this age where these models can kind of take a bit of that control back. They can control what content they make, how much they sell it for. And I think that that plays so much into like the conversation about deepfakes where it’s about control. It’s all about consent. And then with deepfakes, you can make anybody do anything. So you have the control over this other person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since joining OnlyFans, Morgan and other adult creators have dealt with the same problem: leaks. They consent to paying subscribers accessing certain premium content that’s been posted behind a paywall. Then some unscrupulous subscriber downloads it and posts it publicly without their permission for the rest of the world to see. It was a constant source of frustration for Morgan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then about a year and a half ago, Morgan noticed the deep fakes. Her friends told her about how they stumbled across videos of themselves online, but it wasn’t really them. Someone had taken explicit content from behind their paywalls and modified it, morphing them into these scenarios that the creators never wanted to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, it all stems back to control. It’s like, ‘oh, you did this thing that I didn’t like. Well, look at this control I have over your image. I’m going to use that against you.’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think some detractors would say, like, ‘oh, well, if you make explicit content, why does deep fake porn bother you? Or why do your leaks bother you?’ What would you say to them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s it’s all about consent. That’s like saying, ‘oh, because you make porn, if I see you on the street, I can sexually assault you.’ You know, it’s like, consent is a very real thing. And there’s a big difference between me in the comfort of my own home within my own boundaries, producing content that I enjoy, and somebody else taking these things and making content that I didn’t consent to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just Morgan and her fellow porn actresses dealing with this. Women who don’t make explicit content are also subjected to this harassment. One of the most well-known cases of this was when Atrioc, a Twitch streamer, was live. During his stream, he showed his open tabs for a split second, and one of them included deep fake porn of his own friends and streaming colleagues. He was caught buying this content. QTCinderella, another streamer was one of Atriok’s close friends. She was also a victim of the deep fake porn he bought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip of QTCinderella]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atrioc for showing it to thousands of people, the people DMing me pictures of myself from that website, f*ck you all!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is like a great example of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is another Twitch streamer who was also a victim of atriox deep fake porn purchases. She does not make explicit adult content, but as a woman existing online, she deals with harassment constantly. Like, here she is reading comments from her audience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Pokimane]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yo yo yo, let’s see some ass. This ain’t a club fam, this is just my Twitch chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are so many clips of her literally just getting up and standing up out of her chair and that’ll get clipped and posted all over Twitter. And all of Twitter is like, ‘look at what she’s doing. She’s gooner baiting!’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Goonerbait started as a term to describe video games or anime that aren’t pornographic but contain a lot of sexual imagery like jiggle physics and very scantily clad female characters. It’s media designed to appeal to gooners. Gooners are porn addicts. And now, internet randos love to accuse real-life women of gooner baiting, mainly female streamers like Pokimane.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘She’s, you know, performing for her male audience.’ And it’s like, well, is she really doing anything? She kind of just got up and walked out of the room, but they’re like, ‘oh, her pants are a little too tight.’ So it’s, like, I think this idea of a woman that’s kind of, just not really even doing anything, a lot of people love to just over-sexualize.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some online circles, there is the sentiment that women like Morgan deserve to be deepfaked because they already make porn, and that women, like Pokimane, also deserve to deepfake because they’re somehow gooner baiting. It even affects people who don’t post online. Non-consensual deepfakes are rampant in schools. A Wired investigation last month found that high school boys have targeted their fellow classmates by spreading fake, generated nudes of them. These are teenage girls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, the thing is, it’s not going to stop with sex workers. As much as the sentiment these days is very anti-sex work, like, ‘oh, if you make this content, you’re kind of putting yourself up to be distributed in this way.’ But the thing it is, is it’s 100% a slippery slope and it’s going to keep going into Twitch streamers who are known and even just normal people. There’s nothing stopping anybody from pulling up somebody’s Facebook profile, just a normal person who doesn’t produce any content whatsoever, and making explicit deep fakes of them and distributing them. And that can be used as blackmail. The possibilities there are quite literally endless in terms of the harm that they could cause for everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve talked about spending so much money on deepfake takedowns, but how did you initially try to tackle this problem of deepfakes and leaked content?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was going in every single week and I was Googling my name and I was going on like Twitter, Reddit, all these other sites, just like searching for my name, um, and seeing pages and pages and pages of all this leaked content that would come up. And back then I was paying over a thousand dollars a month on these takedowns, but I would still have to go in and manually report a lot of stuff. You shouldn’t really have to go in and look at your own leaks and your own deep fakes, which is just awful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan was at her wits end. And then, late last year, she saw that Zander was working on a project that may be able to solve her problem. And she wanted to help. We’ll hear Zander’s story after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. Okay, back to the story after the break. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Now, let’s open that new tab: What is Fanlock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander had started out as a Minecraft YouTuber back in high school. It was a fun thing he did on the side before he went to college to study software engineering. He was on his high school robotics team and loved tinkering and fixing things. A few years ago, during his sophomore year, he started going to anime conventions with his friends. Here’s the thing, Zander’s really tall. He’s 6’8″. His friend pointed out that he could carve out a real niche as a comically tall cosplayer. He pushed Zander to start posting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was like ‘Bro, it’s gonna be like viral because like, oh my gosh, why is a Gojo cosplayer like as tall as like LeBron James?’ So I did it and it did pretty good. And I guess it just snowballed from there and I just haven’t stopped since.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About six months after he went viral as comically tall Gojo, he started getting brand deals from anime companies. He gained hundreds of thousands of followers. He flew all over the country, attending cons and meetups. He even hosted a few lookalike competitions. There’s a picture of the Hatsune Miku lookalite competition he hosted. A gaggle of cosplayers in turquoise wigs, and then Zander, towering above the crowd in his own turquois getup. Of course, he was still in school juggling a burgeoning full-time career as a content creator while also attending classes and doing homework and studying for exams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He considered dropping out, but his parents really, really wanted him to stay in school. They weren’t thrilled at the idea of their son leaving an engineering degree to pursue anime content. So he stuck it out, and last year, while finishing up his last semester of school, He stumbled across this deep fake problem. It struck a very personal chord.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So about a month before I graduated, my girlfriend, who’s an SFW creator, had a huge deep fake problem. Um, you know, there’s accounts popping up on like Threads or Instagram that either use her likeness or just full on non-consensual porn, uh, deep fakes of her, which is super mentally taxing, uh on her, you know, as an SF W creator. You know, she didn’t consent to being in those positions or having these account to DM her fans, like, ‘Hey, send me $400 and we’ll go on a date,’ type of just scam content. So it was from there that I was like, let me see what’s up and see if I can help you. So that’s when I really took a deep dive into DMCA, non-consensual imagery and depending on the platform it’s on what you can do about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DMCA, as in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It’s copyright law for internet content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was able to get a lot of her stuff down, which was great. Uh, but then at that point it was like, you know, what are the other players in the space doing about this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What he found were takedown tools that were very expensive and not that effective. While creator management firms and talent agencies have in-house services for this, they’re inaccessible to smaller creators. After Zander helped his girlfriend, her friends reached out to him. They had the same problem. And then their friends reached out. And all of this coincided with his post-graduation job search. He planned to at least try to use his degree. But the job market for entry-level software engineers was rough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the third final round interview at like some fang company where they rejected me after four weeks and five interviews, I was just so fed up. I was like, you know what, screw this. I’m gonna just do this myself. I’ma make my own company. So, and at that time, you it’s like the overlap of like, oh, I figured out how to do this. I could help more creators like this and really solve a real problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, he started working on it, a tool for creators that would scan the internet for leaked and deepfaked content and automatically send DMCA takedown requests. And if the sites didn’t comply, this tool would have to find other ways to force a takedow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander knew how traumatic it was for his girlfriend and her friends to be constantly confronted with non-consensual deepfake porn. So, he wanted this tool to take down content automatically, without creators having to see it. And the tool also had to catch the non-consensual deepfakes before they spread to other platforms. But he knew he couldn’t do it alone. He needed the perspective of other creators for it to really work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I pretty much just posted on my close friends at some point, like, hey, I’m thinking about doing this as like an actual like business or something like that. If anyone will be down to just test it out for free and see how good like my, you know, scanning architecture and stuff like that is, let me know. And Morgan actually swiped up on the story and was like, hey, that actually sounds pretty neat. I’d be down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan and Zander had met at TwitchCon a while back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we hopped on a call and I was like, ‘would you be down to like do this with me?’ Cause like, I think it’d be pretty sick if we had like two creators doing it that know the problem. You know, Morgan knows firsthand, like the adult space, but as well as like a firsthand account of like leaks and deep fakes and you know, where they live and stuff like that. And you know I guess from there, it just was one of those things where it was like I think this could be a real player in the space and I’m really passionate about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan, what was it like for you to see that story?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve struggled with this stuff for so long. I know so many people that I could tap in on and get their feedback. My scope in this space is so wide because I’ve had my eggs in so many baskets online And that I knew that I would be able to bring a good perspective and good input.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they managed to raise $200,000, and with that, Morgan and Zander launched Fanlock earlier this year. Zander handles the technical side, making sure Fanlock works, and Morgan handles the creator side, managing outreach to other creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I get to apply that degree that I was considering dropping out to do content for. And it’s, I guess like a full 360, you know, everyone that was like, you should stay in school and finish it out. I guess it came back to be useful because now I can apply it to helping my friends and other people in the space with this really real problem that they have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This solution isn’t that straightforward though. That’s a new tab: Why is it so hard to take down deepfakes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In May last year, President Trump signed the Take It Down Act, a landmark law that criminalizes the publication of non-consensual intimate imagery, including digital forgeries, aka deep fake porn. It’s one of Congress’s first bipartisan actions to tackle AI-generated content. The law also requires online platforms to implement a removal request system and to take down deep fake porn within 48 hours of a request.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these sites thankfully already had like forms or different reporting mechanisms to report deepfakes, but I think with this act itself, it’s a really good step in the right direction to combat non-consensual deepfake and, you know, props to the government for doing something right for once and actually passing this really quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the Take It Down Act is only enforceable under U.S. jurisdiction, although the EU also has similar laws. But a lot of these sites are based outside of these places, like in Russia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so for like Russia and Chinese sites, it gets a lot harder because they don’t have any need to comply either like deep fake penalties or DMCA because it’s specifically like USA, EU jurisdiction typically. And that makes it a lot hard to get content down off those sites if it’s even possible at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a few things you can do for these sites. There’s been some sites I know firsthand that they use, let’s say, a USA-based company for their notification system. We’re able to submit basically a DMCA to those companies, basically being like, hey, just so you know, you’re aiding in copyright infringement by working with this client. If we were to take it a step further, we could always issue a DMC subpoena to them if they use Google Analytics, for example, to straight to Google. And that would help us get more information about… The actual emails of the site, who this person actually is. So if they’re in the EU or USA, we can take those legal routes. Obviously there’s sites I know that are pretty much, they’re built from the ground up for piracy and it’s pretty much impossible to get those stuff down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the more difficult aspects of tackling deepfakes is catching them before Google indexes them, basically, storing web pages in its own database so they appear in search results. Because when something appears in search results, it spreads like wildfire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google updated its search functions a few years ago to identify deepfakes and prevent them from appearing at the top of search results, but there are still deepfakess that slip through the cracks. Zander said that Fanlock keeps tabs on specific sites that have histories of hosting non-consensual deepfakes. They scan them and send takedown demands, before they hit Google search results.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, no one wants their family Googling them or something and they see deep fakes of them all over Google Images.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know Fanlock also relies on a lot of facial recognition technology to identify leaked content and deepfakes. Obviously, this technology is very controversial. It’s often used in law enforcement and has a lot connections to surveillance. But what are your thoughts on this use of facial-recognition technology?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, obviously, if a creator signs up for our platform and we’re doing it in a consensual manner, I think that’s great. I obviously am big anti-surveillance, but I think the the key word at the end of the day is just consent, which is like the fundamental problem that I think these creators are having. And if they’re consenting to a service to take down stuff that was made non-consensually, I think, that’s why our creators are okay with it. And I think there’s a big differentiation between that and then, you know, some tech company scanning my face to see if I’m a criminal or something like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to talk about some of the technical challenges that still exist. You mentioned trying to build a Telegram scanner right now. A lot of non-consensual deep fake porn is passed around in closed channels on Discord or group chats or Telegram. Do either of you have any experience with this happening? Like, what is the approach here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we were building FanLock, I was like, Telegram is, like, the final boss of piracy. I really want to build a solution that while we can’t scan a hundred percent of Telegram, I want to build the absolute most, like I guess comprehensive Telegram scanner we can based on like what’s publicly available and what providers there are to us. So for Telegram, typically for like private groups and stuff like that, you’re able to join them if you have like a join link, which we’ve kind of gotten from people being like, ‘hey, I got leaks here, join my channel.’ And after we get the join link we’re able to figure out where copyrighted content is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We already do have our Telegram scanner up. You know, we have about 11 million channels, you know, from our own services, but also third party providers that we use that have kind of indexed Telegram for us, which is great. Discord is a little bit trickier because it’s a TOS breach to use any sort of like bot activity on that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TOS is Terms of Service, the contract between a platform like Telegram and its users.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, like on Discord, if someone has a link that they’ve noticed that they want down, they can submit it to us and then we can do it from there. We currently don’t scan Discord because it is like a TOS breach to do, but we’re hoping as, like I said, as we grow that door can open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Overall, what hurdles still exist when it comes to taking down deepfakes? Like what’s the kind of like technical white whale you’re still chasing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’d say the biggest thing that we’re trying to roll out is actually identifying who leaked or who deep faked XYZ content. I think if we were able to do that, we might, I wouldn’t say solve the piracy problem, but definitely lower it. You know, we’re really hoping we can get in talks with, you know, platforms like OF, Fansly or Instagram and stuff like that, uh, to roll out a technology that we’re working on where basically it embeds like an invisible watermark into different images and stuff like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if it is leaked or if it has deep faked or if someone else’s face has put on it, they’re able to know who exactly posted it based off this invisible embedded technology, which already exists for sites like Netflix. It’s how they track like video, uh, I guess leaks or, you know, from studios that maybe have like a trailer for the new Avengers movie and they want to track if it got leaked on X or anything like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if we’re able to get that done, like I feel like we’d significantly fix the problem and be a lot more proactive. Because I mean, if people start realizing, ‘oh shoot, if I leak or deep fake content, my account gets banned. Like, it’s going to really throw a wrench in the whole leak ecosystem. And that’s what we’re really trying to build towards right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re coming from very different sides of the internet, kind of, whether in the safe work side or the adult content industry. But this is also a problem that deeply affects both of your spheres of the creator economy. How has the proliferation of deepfake porn changed the creator industry for you? And what would you say to someone who’s afraid to keep posting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The unfortunate thing is it’s such an uphill battle when it comes to deepfaked and leaked content, especially with AI getting as good as it is right now. But to somebody who is kind of scared to post right now, just know that there are people who are trying to find solutions to this kind of stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for these people who are generating this kind of content, it’s very much about their own sense of control. It doesn’t reflect you as a creator. You shouldn’t be afraid to post what you want because of this horrible threat of somebody taking your content and basically twisting it into something that you didn’t consent to. And hopefully our government can kind of catch up with this kind of stuff here pretty soon. But there are people like me and Zander who are trying to take real steps to help mitigate this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For creators, I’d say, you know, if you need to, you know, get anything you need for support on it, do it. You know, if you need to take a step back, do it. And then I’d say like, it’s a twofold thing where it’s like, don’t glamorize generative AI video and image content because that only speeds up the industry and then really push for better legislation and, you know, call your Senator, call your Congressman, like get it passed. Because It’s only going to get worse as it gets easier and it’s able to be done for more people. I think those are probably the two biggest things a creator can do right now that has like an actual like tangible impact to halt this problem or make it slow down at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you both so much for talking about all of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you or someone you know has been targeted with deep fake porn, there are ways to have it removed. Fanlock also has free guides for creators navigating this problem. Check the show notes for more. We’ll link to a few resources about the Take It Down Act and how to remove non-consensual intimate imagery. For now, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">diving into the world of nonconsensual deepfake porn and why this problem reaches far beyond influencers and sex workers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When users on X started asking Grok to generate explicit images of real women and girls without their consent, Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator Morgpie watched the harassment spiral in real time. Cosplayer and software engineer Zander Small saw firsthand how nonconsensual images affected his girlfriend, a SFW creator, and her friends. The two decided to team up to build tools that help creators detect leaks, remove deepfakes, and reclaim control over their images online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and nonconsensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5643980688\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bigguswombus/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgpie\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, OnlyFans creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/zander_smalls/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander Small\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">content creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dexerto.com/twitch/influencers-take-on-ai-deepfakes-with-new-creator-protection-agency-3324719/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers take on AI deepfakes with their own creator protection agency\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Virginia Glaze, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dextero\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/musks-ai-chatbot-grok-xai-making-sexual-deepfakes-imagine-rcna265855\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk’s Grok AI chatbot is still making sexual deepfakes, despite X’s promise to stop it\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Ingram, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NBC News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/deepfake-nudify-schools-global-crisis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Deepfake Nudes Crisis in Schools Is Much Worse Than You Thought\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matt Burgess, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://19thnews.org/2025/05/take-it-down-act-signing-explicit-images\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take It Down Act: How to use it to remove revenge porn\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jasmine Mithani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 19th\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/rainns-recommendations-for-legislators/image-based-sexual-abuse-laws-combat-nonconsensual-ai-deepfakes/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Image-Based Sexual Abuse Laws: Combat Nonconsensual AI Deepfakes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/get-informed/issues/ai-tech-enabled-sexual-abuse/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI & Tech-Enabled Sexual Abuse: Risk & Prevention\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://deepstrike.io/blog/deepfake-statistics-2025\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deepfake Statistics 2025: AI Fraud Data & Trends\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Mohammed Khalil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeepStrike\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you closing your tabs? You can be honest, this is a safe space. If you’re a fan of Close All Tabs and you want more of it, then please rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us. It would be such a huge help to get the word out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s get to the show. Just a note, this episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and non-consensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know Grok? It’s the AI chatbot integrated with X, the social media app formerly known as Twitter and now owned by Elon Musk. Well, since late last year, Grok has been embroiled in an undressing scandal, generating sexually explicit images of people without their consent. The majority of targets were women. Some were minors, young girls. For a few weeks, it was a pretty disgusting widespread trend. When women or even teenage girls posted fully clothed photos of themselves on X, other users would comment and tag Grok, asking it to ‘put her in a bikini’ or ‘take off her top.’ The chatbot would publicly respond with a generated lewd or completely naked image of the subject. Some users went even further, asking Grok to add blood and bruises, prompting the chatbot to generate graphic, sexually violent images of these women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh man, it was very much like I was waking up every day and I didn’t want to post.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Morgpie, a Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator. People who know her IRL call her Morgan. She’s been a porn actress for years, and as someone who makes sexually explicit content, she’s used to creeps harassing her with her own nudes. But the Grok and dressing trend really unsettled her. It was the worst in January.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being looped in with something that is so violating, and like you said, something that’s even affecting minors is just disgusting. Every day I was going into my comments and just like hiding replies and blocking because I’m like, I’m not going to let you guys just generate these images of me that I did not consent to, especially if it’s being associated with basically creating child pornography on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was non-consensual, intimate imagery, more commonly known as deep fake porn. A deep fake is content that has been generated or manipulated by AI to imitate someone else. Zander Small, another content creator and a friend of Morgan’s, says that the proliferation of AI tools has started to seriously affect content creators, regardless of whether or not they make adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep fakes can be anything from deep fake explicit imagery with like, a creator doing something or nude content that they didn’t consent to. Or it could be stuff as simple as like, an audio deep fake where a creator is saying something that they don’t consent too, which might have repercussions of them being canceled or stuff that they just obviously wouldn’t consent to saying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of herself as much. After years of being in this industry, she’s developed thick skin. She’s mostly dealt with leaks, or explicit content that she posted behind a paywall that was illegally downloaded and posted elsewhere, without her consent. But the Grok trend is just the tip of the iceberg. Non-consensual deep fake-porn has exploded over the last few years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for a lot of people, the lack of consent is very attractive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is an issue that overwhelmingly affects women, and these circles are not as fringe as you might think. An annual report last year by the cybersecurity firm DeepStrike found that roughly 97% of all deepfakes online fall under non-consensual intimate imagery, and that 99 to 100% of victims of deepfake pornography are women. Here’s Zander again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it is either fans, if you want to call them that, or just creeps on the internet, wanting to see more out of a creator than they consented to. I know it affects a lot of SFW creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFW, or Safe for Work. They don’t show nudity or make sexually explicit content. While NSFW, not Safer work, means adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you know, and I guess from that, you know, if a creator isn’t consenting to do more explicit content, then, you know, these, uh, I guess perpetrators, creeps, whatever you want to call them, you know, take into their hands to do it themselves. And it’s incredibly easy to deep fake content and, you know, as models get better and better and they get quicker and quicker, it doesn’t really require as much of sophisticated technology to run these models.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the mainstream models, ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, have guardrails that are supposed to prevent them from generating deep fake porn. In January, X announced that it implemented technological measures to prevent Grok from modifying images of real people in revealing clothing. But there are ways to get around these guardraills. Just last month, NBC News reported that Grok is still generating deep-fake porn of real women. And like Zander said, there are so many other models out there that just don’t have these guardrails in the first place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of himself, but he’s seen how much it’s affected people he’s close to, other safer work creators who don’t make explicit content. And Morgan, coming from the porn industry, has seen how this issue affects her fellow adult content creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So late last year, they teamed up to come up with a solution for other creators. Today, we’re diving into the seedy reality of non-consensual deepfake porn, when it got so bad, why it’s so hard to stop, and how two Gen Z content creators are trying to tackle it. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open our first tab: the reality of non-consensual deep fake porn. Morgan is an award-winning porn creator. Literally, she has multiple Pornhub awards. And when she started years ago, the internet was very different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting because when I first started, the climate was very much like, if you opened up Twitter, you would see tweets that are like, ‘sex work is real work.’ Of course, this was kind of around the time when OnlyFans was only just emerging barely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the world of adult content, there was before OnlyFans, and then there’s after OnlyFans. The platform completely changed the game, lowering the barrier of entry for new creators and giving them new options to monetize their content. Morgan said that before OnlyFans blew up, the only way to make a living as an independent porn creator was to land on the front page of Pornhub, or actresses had to break into the industry by being part of studio productions where they didn’t have as much autonomy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting the shift between whenever porn was basically widely available, you didn’t really have to pay much for it. When I first started, I was uploading to Pornhub, and that was full length, full scenes that you could see for free at any time. Whereas now, the climate has shifted a lot to where creators like myself have a lot more control. So we’re able to, you know, use OnlyFans as a platform where we are more connected with our audience and that is actually the main pull. Now we’re in this age where these models can kind of take a bit of that control back. They can control what content they make, how much they sell it for. And I think that that plays so much into like the conversation about deepfakes where it’s about control. It’s all about consent. And then with deepfakes, you can make anybody do anything. So you have the control over this other person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since joining OnlyFans, Morgan and other adult creators have dealt with the same problem: leaks. They consent to paying subscribers accessing certain premium content that’s been posted behind a paywall. Then some unscrupulous subscriber downloads it and posts it publicly without their permission for the rest of the world to see. It was a constant source of frustration for Morgan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then about a year and a half ago, Morgan noticed the deep fakes. Her friends told her about how they stumbled across videos of themselves online, but it wasn’t really them. Someone had taken explicit content from behind their paywalls and modified it, morphing them into these scenarios that the creators never wanted to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, it all stems back to control. It’s like, ‘oh, you did this thing that I didn’t like. Well, look at this control I have over your image. I’m going to use that against you.’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think some detractors would say, like, ‘oh, well, if you make explicit content, why does deep fake porn bother you? Or why do your leaks bother you?’ What would you say to them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s it’s all about consent. That’s like saying, ‘oh, because you make porn, if I see you on the street, I can sexually assault you.’ You know, it’s like, consent is a very real thing. And there’s a big difference between me in the comfort of my own home within my own boundaries, producing content that I enjoy, and somebody else taking these things and making content that I didn’t consent to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just Morgan and her fellow porn actresses dealing with this. Women who don’t make explicit content are also subjected to this harassment. One of the most well-known cases of this was when Atrioc, a Twitch streamer, was live. During his stream, he showed his open tabs for a split second, and one of them included deep fake porn of his own friends and streaming colleagues. He was caught buying this content. QTCinderella, another streamer was one of Atriok’s close friends. She was also a victim of the deep fake porn he bought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip of QTCinderella]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atrioc for showing it to thousands of people, the people DMing me pictures of myself from that website, f*ck you all!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is like a great example of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is another Twitch streamer who was also a victim of atriox deep fake porn purchases. She does not make explicit adult content, but as a woman existing online, she deals with harassment constantly. Like, here she is reading comments from her audience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Pokimane]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yo yo yo, let’s see some ass. This ain’t a club fam, this is just my Twitch chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are so many clips of her literally just getting up and standing up out of her chair and that’ll get clipped and posted all over Twitter. And all of Twitter is like, ‘look at what she’s doing. She’s gooner baiting!’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Goonerbait started as a term to describe video games or anime that aren’t pornographic but contain a lot of sexual imagery like jiggle physics and very scantily clad female characters. It’s media designed to appeal to gooners. Gooners are porn addicts. And now, internet randos love to accuse real-life women of gooner baiting, mainly female streamers like Pokimane.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘She’s, you know, performing for her male audience.’ And it’s like, well, is she really doing anything? She kind of just got up and walked out of the room, but they’re like, ‘oh, her pants are a little too tight.’ So it’s, like, I think this idea of a woman that’s kind of, just not really even doing anything, a lot of people love to just over-sexualize.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some online circles, there is the sentiment that women like Morgan deserve to be deepfaked because they already make porn, and that women, like Pokimane, also deserve to deepfake because they’re somehow gooner baiting. It even affects people who don’t post online. Non-consensual deepfakes are rampant in schools. A Wired investigation last month found that high school boys have targeted their fellow classmates by spreading fake, generated nudes of them. These are teenage girls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, the thing is, it’s not going to stop with sex workers. As much as the sentiment these days is very anti-sex work, like, ‘oh, if you make this content, you’re kind of putting yourself up to be distributed in this way.’ But the thing it is, is it’s 100% a slippery slope and it’s going to keep going into Twitch streamers who are known and even just normal people. There’s nothing stopping anybody from pulling up somebody’s Facebook profile, just a normal person who doesn’t produce any content whatsoever, and making explicit deep fakes of them and distributing them. And that can be used as blackmail. The possibilities there are quite literally endless in terms of the harm that they could cause for everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve talked about spending so much money on deepfake takedowns, but how did you initially try to tackle this problem of deepfakes and leaked content?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was going in every single week and I was Googling my name and I was going on like Twitter, Reddit, all these other sites, just like searching for my name, um, and seeing pages and pages and pages of all this leaked content that would come up. And back then I was paying over a thousand dollars a month on these takedowns, but I would still have to go in and manually report a lot of stuff. You shouldn’t really have to go in and look at your own leaks and your own deep fakes, which is just awful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan was at her wits end. And then, late last year, she saw that Zander was working on a project that may be able to solve her problem. And she wanted to help. We’ll hear Zander’s story after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. Okay, back to the story after the break. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Now, let’s open that new tab: What is Fanlock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander had started out as a Minecraft YouTuber back in high school. It was a fun thing he did on the side before he went to college to study software engineering. He was on his high school robotics team and loved tinkering and fixing things. A few years ago, during his sophomore year, he started going to anime conventions with his friends. Here’s the thing, Zander’s really tall. He’s 6’8″. His friend pointed out that he could carve out a real niche as a comically tall cosplayer. He pushed Zander to start posting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was like ‘Bro, it’s gonna be like viral because like, oh my gosh, why is a Gojo cosplayer like as tall as like LeBron James?’ So I did it and it did pretty good. And I guess it just snowballed from there and I just haven’t stopped since.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About six months after he went viral as comically tall Gojo, he started getting brand deals from anime companies. He gained hundreds of thousands of followers. He flew all over the country, attending cons and meetups. He even hosted a few lookalike competitions. There’s a picture of the Hatsune Miku lookalite competition he hosted. A gaggle of cosplayers in turquoise wigs, and then Zander, towering above the crowd in his own turquois getup. Of course, he was still in school juggling a burgeoning full-time career as a content creator while also attending classes and doing homework and studying for exams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He considered dropping out, but his parents really, really wanted him to stay in school. They weren’t thrilled at the idea of their son leaving an engineering degree to pursue anime content. So he stuck it out, and last year, while finishing up his last semester of school, He stumbled across this deep fake problem. It struck a very personal chord.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So about a month before I graduated, my girlfriend, who’s an SFW creator, had a huge deep fake problem. Um, you know, there’s accounts popping up on like Threads or Instagram that either use her likeness or just full on non-consensual porn, uh, deep fakes of her, which is super mentally taxing, uh on her, you know, as an SF W creator. You know, she didn’t consent to being in those positions or having these account to DM her fans, like, ‘Hey, send me $400 and we’ll go on a date,’ type of just scam content. So it was from there that I was like, let me see what’s up and see if I can help you. So that’s when I really took a deep dive into DMCA, non-consensual imagery and depending on the platform it’s on what you can do about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DMCA, as in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It’s copyright law for internet content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was able to get a lot of her stuff down, which was great. Uh, but then at that point it was like, you know, what are the other players in the space doing about this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What he found were takedown tools that were very expensive and not that effective. While creator management firms and talent agencies have in-house services for this, they’re inaccessible to smaller creators. After Zander helped his girlfriend, her friends reached out to him. They had the same problem. And then their friends reached out. And all of this coincided with his post-graduation job search. He planned to at least try to use his degree. But the job market for entry-level software engineers was rough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the third final round interview at like some fang company where they rejected me after four weeks and five interviews, I was just so fed up. I was like, you know what, screw this. I’m gonna just do this myself. I’ma make my own company. So, and at that time, you it’s like the overlap of like, oh, I figured out how to do this. I could help more creators like this and really solve a real problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, he started working on it, a tool for creators that would scan the internet for leaked and deepfaked content and automatically send DMCA takedown requests. And if the sites didn’t comply, this tool would have to find other ways to force a takedow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander knew how traumatic it was for his girlfriend and her friends to be constantly confronted with non-consensual deepfake porn. So, he wanted this tool to take down content automatically, without creators having to see it. And the tool also had to catch the non-consensual deepfakes before they spread to other platforms. But he knew he couldn’t do it alone. He needed the perspective of other creators for it to really work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I pretty much just posted on my close friends at some point, like, hey, I’m thinking about doing this as like an actual like business or something like that. If anyone will be down to just test it out for free and see how good like my, you know, scanning architecture and stuff like that is, let me know. And Morgan actually swiped up on the story and was like, hey, that actually sounds pretty neat. I’d be down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan and Zander had met at TwitchCon a while back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we hopped on a call and I was like, ‘would you be down to like do this with me?’ Cause like, I think it’d be pretty sick if we had like two creators doing it that know the problem. You know, Morgan knows firsthand, like the adult space, but as well as like a firsthand account of like leaks and deep fakes and you know, where they live and stuff like that. And you know I guess from there, it just was one of those things where it was like I think this could be a real player in the space and I’m really passionate about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan, what was it like for you to see that story?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve struggled with this stuff for so long. I know so many people that I could tap in on and get their feedback. My scope in this space is so wide because I’ve had my eggs in so many baskets online And that I knew that I would be able to bring a good perspective and good input.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they managed to raise $200,000, and with that, Morgan and Zander launched Fanlock earlier this year. Zander handles the technical side, making sure Fanlock works, and Morgan handles the creator side, managing outreach to other creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I get to apply that degree that I was considering dropping out to do content for. And it’s, I guess like a full 360, you know, everyone that was like, you should stay in school and finish it out. I guess it came back to be useful because now I can apply it to helping my friends and other people in the space with this really real problem that they have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This solution isn’t that straightforward though. That’s a new tab: Why is it so hard to take down deepfakes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In May last year, President Trump signed the Take It Down Act, a landmark law that criminalizes the publication of non-consensual intimate imagery, including digital forgeries, aka deep fake porn. It’s one of Congress’s first bipartisan actions to tackle AI-generated content. The law also requires online platforms to implement a removal request system and to take down deep fake porn within 48 hours of a request.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these sites thankfully already had like forms or different reporting mechanisms to report deepfakes, but I think with this act itself, it’s a really good step in the right direction to combat non-consensual deepfake and, you know, props to the government for doing something right for once and actually passing this really quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the Take It Down Act is only enforceable under U.S. jurisdiction, although the EU also has similar laws. But a lot of these sites are based outside of these places, like in Russia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so for like Russia and Chinese sites, it gets a lot harder because they don’t have any need to comply either like deep fake penalties or DMCA because it’s specifically like USA, EU jurisdiction typically. And that makes it a lot hard to get content down off those sites if it’s even possible at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a few things you can do for these sites. There’s been some sites I know firsthand that they use, let’s say, a USA-based company for their notification system. We’re able to submit basically a DMCA to those companies, basically being like, hey, just so you know, you’re aiding in copyright infringement by working with this client. If we were to take it a step further, we could always issue a DMC subpoena to them if they use Google Analytics, for example, to straight to Google. And that would help us get more information about… The actual emails of the site, who this person actually is. So if they’re in the EU or USA, we can take those legal routes. Obviously there’s sites I know that are pretty much, they’re built from the ground up for piracy and it’s pretty much impossible to get those stuff down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the more difficult aspects of tackling deepfakes is catching them before Google indexes them, basically, storing web pages in its own database so they appear in search results. Because when something appears in search results, it spreads like wildfire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google updated its search functions a few years ago to identify deepfakes and prevent them from appearing at the top of search results, but there are still deepfakess that slip through the cracks. Zander said that Fanlock keeps tabs on specific sites that have histories of hosting non-consensual deepfakes. They scan them and send takedown demands, before they hit Google search results.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, no one wants their family Googling them or something and they see deep fakes of them all over Google Images.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know Fanlock also relies on a lot of facial recognition technology to identify leaked content and deepfakes. Obviously, this technology is very controversial. It’s often used in law enforcement and has a lot connections to surveillance. But what are your thoughts on this use of facial-recognition technology?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, obviously, if a creator signs up for our platform and we’re doing it in a consensual manner, I think that’s great. I obviously am big anti-surveillance, but I think the the key word at the end of the day is just consent, which is like the fundamental problem that I think these creators are having. And if they’re consenting to a service to take down stuff that was made non-consensually, I think, that’s why our creators are okay with it. And I think there’s a big differentiation between that and then, you know, some tech company scanning my face to see if I’m a criminal or something like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to talk about some of the technical challenges that still exist. You mentioned trying to build a Telegram scanner right now. A lot of non-consensual deep fake porn is passed around in closed channels on Discord or group chats or Telegram. Do either of you have any experience with this happening? Like, what is the approach here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we were building FanLock, I was like, Telegram is, like, the final boss of piracy. I really want to build a solution that while we can’t scan a hundred percent of Telegram, I want to build the absolute most, like I guess comprehensive Telegram scanner we can based on like what’s publicly available and what providers there are to us. So for Telegram, typically for like private groups and stuff like that, you’re able to join them if you have like a join link, which we’ve kind of gotten from people being like, ‘hey, I got leaks here, join my channel.’ And after we get the join link we’re able to figure out where copyrighted content is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We already do have our Telegram scanner up. You know, we have about 11 million channels, you know, from our own services, but also third party providers that we use that have kind of indexed Telegram for us, which is great. Discord is a little bit trickier because it’s a TOS breach to use any sort of like bot activity on that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TOS is Terms of Service, the contract between a platform like Telegram and its users.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, like on Discord, if someone has a link that they’ve noticed that they want down, they can submit it to us and then we can do it from there. We currently don’t scan Discord because it is like a TOS breach to do, but we’re hoping as, like I said, as we grow that door can open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Overall, what hurdles still exist when it comes to taking down deepfakes? Like what’s the kind of like technical white whale you’re still chasing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’d say the biggest thing that we’re trying to roll out is actually identifying who leaked or who deep faked XYZ content. I think if we were able to do that, we might, I wouldn’t say solve the piracy problem, but definitely lower it. You know, we’re really hoping we can get in talks with, you know, platforms like OF, Fansly or Instagram and stuff like that, uh, to roll out a technology that we’re working on where basically it embeds like an invisible watermark into different images and stuff like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if it is leaked or if it has deep faked or if someone else’s face has put on it, they’re able to know who exactly posted it based off this invisible embedded technology, which already exists for sites like Netflix. It’s how they track like video, uh, I guess leaks or, you know, from studios that maybe have like a trailer for the new Avengers movie and they want to track if it got leaked on X or anything like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if we’re able to get that done, like I feel like we’d significantly fix the problem and be a lot more proactive. Because I mean, if people start realizing, ‘oh shoot, if I leak or deep fake content, my account gets banned. Like, it’s going to really throw a wrench in the whole leak ecosystem. And that’s what we’re really trying to build towards right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re coming from very different sides of the internet, kind of, whether in the safe work side or the adult content industry. But this is also a problem that deeply affects both of your spheres of the creator economy. How has the proliferation of deepfake porn changed the creator industry for you? And what would you say to someone who’s afraid to keep posting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The unfortunate thing is it’s such an uphill battle when it comes to deepfaked and leaked content, especially with AI getting as good as it is right now. But to somebody who is kind of scared to post right now, just know that there are people who are trying to find solutions to this kind of stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for these people who are generating this kind of content, it’s very much about their own sense of control. It doesn’t reflect you as a creator. You shouldn’t be afraid to post what you want because of this horrible threat of somebody taking your content and basically twisting it into something that you didn’t consent to. And hopefully our government can kind of catch up with this kind of stuff here pretty soon. But there are people like me and Zander who are trying to take real steps to help mitigate this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For creators, I’d say, you know, if you need to, you know, get anything you need for support on it, do it. You know, if you need to take a step back, do it. And then I’d say like, it’s a twofold thing where it’s like, don’t glamorize generative AI video and image content because that only speeds up the industry and then really push for better legislation and, you know, call your Senator, call your Congressman, like get it passed. Because It’s only going to get worse as it gets easier and it’s able to be done for more people. I think those are probably the two biggest things a creator can do right now that has like an actual like tangible impact to halt this problem or make it slow down at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you both so much for talking about all of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you or someone you know has been targeted with deep fake porn, there are ways to have it removed. Fanlock also has free guides for creators navigating this problem. Check the show notes for more. We’ll link to a few resources about the Take It Down Act and how to remove non-consensual intimate imagery. For now, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "sam-altman-defends-himself-from-elon-musks-accusations-in-openai-trial",
"title": "Sam Altman Defends Himself From Elon Musk’s Accusations in OpenAI Trial",
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"content": "\u003cp>On the stand on Tuesday, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman said that Elon Musk tried to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081916/are-elon-musk-and-openai-fighting-an-ai-arms-race-sam-altmans-lawyers-think-so\">wrest control over the company\u003c/a> they co-founded before the Tesla CEO’s 2018 exit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman’s testimony in the federal trial in Oakland, which many see as a billionaire grudge match, pushed back on Musk’s claim that the powerful AI start-up betrayed its mission to benefit the public good. Musk has accused Altman of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081603/elon-musk-takes-aim-at-openai-as-trial-begins-its-not-ok-to-steal-a-charity\">“stealing a charity” \u003c/a>by building an $850 million for-profit company on the back of its nonprofit research lab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that in early discussions about creating a for-profit arm, Musk sought majority ownership, and later proposed folding the nonprofit into his car company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I read that as a lightweight threat,” Altman said of the plan to bring OpenAI into Tesla. “I don’t think it would have served the mission. I think it would have effectively destroyed the nonprofit in the process.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Mr. Musk did try to kill it, I guess twice,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As early as summer 2017, Altman, Musk and other OpenAI executives began discussing if and how to launch a for-profit, citing a need to raise more money to keep up with competitors like Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12083394\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12083394 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI CEO Sam Altman testifies in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity rather than solely for profit in Oakland on May 12, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Altman said they were “running the organization on a shoestring,” with a short runway of cash. To acquire the compute — or the GPUs and CPUs needed to power AI — and funding they needed to pursue artificial general intelligence, or a superintelligent AI technology known as AGI, the company would need more significant investments, the executives determined.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought, of course, we needed to raise billions to quickly ramp,” he said. “I saw no way to do it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman, Greg Brockman, the president of OpenAI and Ilya Sutskever, a former top OpenAI computer scientist and member of its founding team, have said that in those conversations, Musk repeatedly proposed plans that would give him majority control. Initially, Altman said that he asked for 90% equity in a potential for-profit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other executives pushed back on this request, including in an email Altman sent to Musk at the time, in which he said, “I am worried about control. I don’t think any one person should have control of the world’s first AGI — in fact, the whole reason we started OpenAI is so that wouldn’t happen.”[aside postID=news_12083224 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/SamAltmanGetty.jpg']Altman described Musk as “mercurial,” and said that when he left OpenAI in February 2018, after for-profit discussions fell apart, “people wondered if he’d try to take a vengeance on us” — which both he and his attorney, William Savitt, have alleged is exactly what Musk’s lawsuit aims to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During his cross-examination, though, Musk’s counsel Steven Molo seemed to suggest that it is Altman who has amassed significant control over OpenAI since it did launch a for-profit arm in 2019.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo asked Altman about the testimonies of various former OpenAI executives, who said he was untrustworthy and had a history of lying. Altman denied hearing those testimonies, but when asked if he had “repeatedly been called a liar” by people he has done business with, he said, “I have heard people say that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo said that Altman sits on the board of directors for both the OpenAI Foundation, the nonprofit arm, and OpenAI’s for-profit. He is also the company’s CEO.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Would you ever fire yourself as the CEO of the for-profit?” Molo said, adding that the board of the nonprofit is supposed to provide oversight for the chief officer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that CEOs are “almost always” on their company’s boards. When pressed, he said he had “no plans” to fire himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12083294\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12083294\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bret Taylor testifies in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity rather than solely for profit in Oakland on May 12, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Molo also asked Altman about how board members were selected following his brief firing in 2023. During the five-day ouster, there were long negotiations behind the scenes about whether Altman would return, and who would be on the board if he did. Altman, Brockman and other OpenAI executives who followed them out were also in discussions with Microsoft, OpenAI’s largest financial backer, which had offered to bring them on to start a new AI team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said initially he’d proposed to remove OpenAI’s board, which fired him, and replace it with four members, including himself. Altman was not made a board member at that time, but Molo said that he had proposed the three members who were ultimately selected — Bret Taylor, Larry Summers and Adam D’Angelo — in conversations with Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that he had no power to appoint new board members, but that he did say which configurations he would be “willing” to be rehired into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier in the day, he characterized his return to OpenAI as running “back into a burning building to try to save it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later this week, both Altman and Musk’s legal teams will present their closing arguments. Then the jury and judge will decide which tech leader to believe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>On the stand on Tuesday, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman said that Elon Musk tried to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081916/are-elon-musk-and-openai-fighting-an-ai-arms-race-sam-altmans-lawyers-think-so\">wrest control over the company\u003c/a> they co-founded before the Tesla CEO’s 2018 exit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman’s testimony in the federal trial in Oakland, which many see as a billionaire grudge match, pushed back on Musk’s claim that the powerful AI start-up betrayed its mission to benefit the public good. Musk has accused Altman of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081603/elon-musk-takes-aim-at-openai-as-trial-begins-its-not-ok-to-steal-a-charity\">“stealing a charity” \u003c/a>by building an $850 million for-profit company on the back of its nonprofit research lab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that in early discussions about creating a for-profit arm, Musk sought majority ownership, and later proposed folding the nonprofit into his car company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I read that as a lightweight threat,” Altman said of the plan to bring OpenAI into Tesla. “I don’t think it would have served the mission. I think it would have effectively destroyed the nonprofit in the process.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Mr. Musk did try to kill it, I guess twice,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As early as summer 2017, Altman, Musk and other OpenAI executives began discussing if and how to launch a for-profit, citing a need to raise more money to keep up with competitors like Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12083394\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12083394 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI CEO Sam Altman testifies in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity rather than solely for profit in Oakland on May 12, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Altman said they were “running the organization on a shoestring,” with a short runway of cash. To acquire the compute — or the GPUs and CPUs needed to power AI — and funding they needed to pursue artificial general intelligence, or a superintelligent AI technology known as AGI, the company would need more significant investments, the executives determined.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought, of course, we needed to raise billions to quickly ramp,” he said. “I saw no way to do it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman, Greg Brockman, the president of OpenAI and Ilya Sutskever, a former top OpenAI computer scientist and member of its founding team, have said that in those conversations, Musk repeatedly proposed plans that would give him majority control. Initially, Altman said that he asked for 90% equity in a potential for-profit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other executives pushed back on this request, including in an email Altman sent to Musk at the time, in which he said, “I am worried about control. I don’t think any one person should have control of the world’s first AGI — in fact, the whole reason we started OpenAI is so that wouldn’t happen.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Altman described Musk as “mercurial,” and said that when he left OpenAI in February 2018, after for-profit discussions fell apart, “people wondered if he’d try to take a vengeance on us” — which both he and his attorney, William Savitt, have alleged is exactly what Musk’s lawsuit aims to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During his cross-examination, though, Musk’s counsel Steven Molo seemed to suggest that it is Altman who has amassed significant control over OpenAI since it did launch a for-profit arm in 2019.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo asked Altman about the testimonies of various former OpenAI executives, who said he was untrustworthy and had a history of lying. Altman denied hearing those testimonies, but when asked if he had “repeatedly been called a liar” by people he has done business with, he said, “I have heard people say that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo said that Altman sits on the board of directors for both the OpenAI Foundation, the nonprofit arm, and OpenAI’s for-profit. He is also the company’s CEO.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Would you ever fire yourself as the CEO of the for-profit?” Molo said, adding that the board of the nonprofit is supposed to provide oversight for the chief officer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that CEOs are “almost always” on their company’s boards. When pressed, he said he had “no plans” to fire himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12083294\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12083294\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260512-MUSK-ALTMAN-TRIAL-VB-01-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bret Taylor testifies in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity rather than solely for profit in Oakland on May 12, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Molo also asked Altman about how board members were selected following his brief firing in 2023. During the five-day ouster, there were long negotiations behind the scenes about whether Altman would return, and who would be on the board if he did. Altman, Brockman and other OpenAI executives who followed them out were also in discussions with Microsoft, OpenAI’s largest financial backer, which had offered to bring them on to start a new AI team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said initially he’d proposed to remove OpenAI’s board, which fired him, and replace it with four members, including himself. Altman was not made a board member at that time, but Molo said that he had proposed the three members who were ultimately selected — Bret Taylor, Larry Summers and Adam D’Angelo — in conversations with Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that he had no power to appoint new board members, but that he did say which configurations he would be “willing” to be rehired into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier in the day, he characterized his return to OpenAI as running “back into a burning building to try to save it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later this week, both Altman and Musk’s legal teams will present their closing arguments. Then the jury and judge will decide which tech leader to believe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "former-openai-exec-calls-decision-to-remove-sam-altman-a-hail-mary-during-musk-trial",
"title": "Former OpenAI Exec Calls Decision to Remove Sam Altman a ‘Hail Mary’ During Musk Trial",
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"content": "\u003cp>Microsoft’s CEO and another major player took the stand on Monday in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a>, testifying in the blockbuster trial between OpenAI co-founders Elon Musk and Sam Altman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of Altman’s testimony, Musk’s attorney Steven Molo questioned Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and Ilya Sutskever, a top OpenAI computer scientist who departed the company in 2024. Sutskever discussed his role in orchestrating Altman’s brief ouster in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over five days in November 2023, Altman was removed and reinstated from his post, after a coalition of board members raised concerns that he had not been “consistently candid in his communications” and cited a breakdown of trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether Altman and other executives have maintained OpenAI’s initial stated mission — to develop AI safely and for the “benefit of humanity” — is critical to Musk’s suit, which claims that leaders breached their duty to its nonprofit mission by building a for-profit company on top of it. Musk also alleged that the company unfairly benefited at his expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk also alleges that Microsoft, which is OpenAI’s largest financial backer and until this week held the exclusive rights to license and sell its technology, aided and abetted that breach of trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo questioned Nadella about Microsoft’s motive to invest in OpenAI — a $13 billion input that Nadella said is expected to see a return of about $92 billion, “if it works out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12081686 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland, on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Musk’s attorney pointed out Nadella’s fiduciary duty to maximize profit, and referenced a series of texts between him and Altman that appeared to show Nadella pushing for an earlier rollout of the paid version of ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When chatGPT paid?” Nadella wrote in the message.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that there was “Not enough compute to make it a good consumer experience,” to which Nadella said, “The sooner the better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said that the reason Microsoft invested was that OpenAI was pursuing a for-profit model, but he said, “If the pie became larger, the nonprofit would benefit as well.”[aside postID=news_12081916 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AP26118555622828-2000x1333.jpg']Molo asked Nadella if he was aware that, for a period of time, OpenAI’s nonprofit did not have any employees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I am not,” Nadella said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo also questioned Nadella about Microsoft’s role during Altman’s brief ouster. At the time, Nadella announced that he would hire Altman, along with OpenAI’s third co-founder and current president, Greg Brockman, as well as other allies, to head up a new AI team at Microsoft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said that he “had ideas about how Sam [Altman] and the other employees could join Microsoft if they were not reinstated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If people were going to leave OpenAI, I wanted them to come to Microsoft,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo asked Nadella if he knew why Altman had been removed, to which Nadella said he was never given an “explicit answer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Did the thought occur to you … the board might issue a public statement about why they fired Altman?” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said during that period — referred to as “The Blip” by many OpenAI employees — he was focused on ensuring continuity for customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It goes back to me wanting to communicate to customers that they can count on us,” he said. “Come Monday, that doesn’t just disappear.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082325\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082325 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI CEO Sam Altman watches as OpenAI President Greg Brockman testifies in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland, on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutskever, who took the stand after Nadella, described Altman’s removal differently. He said it was a “Hail Mary” to save OpenAI, which had become an environment that was “not conducive” to the technology’s safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I felt a great deal of ownership of OpenAI,” he said. “I felt like I created this company. I simply cared for it, and I didn’t want it to be destroyed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutskever, who helped lead the ouster, had compiled a more than 50-page record of Altman’s “consistent pattern of lying,” including misrepresenting facts, safety protocols and company information to the board and executives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutskever maintained that he had worked on a team that aimed to focus on long-term risks as more powerful AI was built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The goal of the super alignment is to do the research in advance, such that humanity will have the technological means to make it controlled and safe,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The team was disbanded days after he departed the company, in May 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Microsoft’s CEO and another major player took the stand on Monday in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a>, testifying in the blockbuster trial between OpenAI co-founders Elon Musk and Sam Altman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of Altman’s testimony, Musk’s attorney Steven Molo questioned Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and Ilya Sutskever, a top OpenAI computer scientist who departed the company in 2024. Sutskever discussed his role in orchestrating Altman’s brief ouster in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over five days in November 2023, Altman was removed and reinstated from his post, after a coalition of board members raised concerns that he had not been “consistently candid in his communications” and cited a breakdown of trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether Altman and other executives have maintained OpenAI’s initial stated mission — to develop AI safely and for the “benefit of humanity” — is critical to Musk’s suit, which claims that leaders breached their duty to its nonprofit mission by building a for-profit company on top of it. Musk also alleged that the company unfairly benefited at his expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk also alleges that Microsoft, which is OpenAI’s largest financial backer and until this week held the exclusive rights to license and sell its technology, aided and abetted that breach of trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo questioned Nadella about Microsoft’s motive to invest in OpenAI — a $13 billion input that Nadella said is expected to see a return of about $92 billion, “if it works out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12081686 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland, on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Musk’s attorney pointed out Nadella’s fiduciary duty to maximize profit, and referenced a series of texts between him and Altman that appeared to show Nadella pushing for an earlier rollout of the paid version of ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When chatGPT paid?” Nadella wrote in the message.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that there was “Not enough compute to make it a good consumer experience,” to which Nadella said, “The sooner the better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said that the reason Microsoft invested was that OpenAI was pursuing a for-profit model, but he said, “If the pie became larger, the nonprofit would benefit as well.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Molo asked Nadella if he was aware that, for a period of time, OpenAI’s nonprofit did not have any employees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I am not,” Nadella said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo also questioned Nadella about Microsoft’s role during Altman’s brief ouster. At the time, Nadella announced that he would hire Altman, along with OpenAI’s third co-founder and current president, Greg Brockman, as well as other allies, to head up a new AI team at Microsoft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said that he “had ideas about how Sam [Altman] and the other employees could join Microsoft if they were not reinstated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If people were going to leave OpenAI, I wanted them to come to Microsoft,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo asked Nadella if he knew why Altman had been removed, to which Nadella said he was never given an “explicit answer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Did the thought occur to you … the board might issue a public statement about why they fired Altman?” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said during that period — referred to as “The Blip” by many OpenAI employees — he was focused on ensuring continuity for customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It goes back to me wanting to communicate to customers that they can count on us,” he said. “Come Monday, that doesn’t just disappear.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082325\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082325 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI CEO Sam Altman watches as OpenAI President Greg Brockman testifies in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland, on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutskever, who took the stand after Nadella, described Altman’s removal differently. He said it was a “Hail Mary” to save OpenAI, which had become an environment that was “not conducive” to the technology’s safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I felt a great deal of ownership of OpenAI,” he said. “I felt like I created this company. I simply cared for it, and I didn’t want it to be destroyed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutskever, who helped lead the ouster, had compiled a more than 50-page record of Altman’s “consistent pattern of lying,” including misrepresenting facts, safety protocols and company information to the board and executives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutskever maintained that he had worked on a team that aimed to focus on long-term risks as more powerful AI was built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The goal of the super alignment is to do the research in advance, such that humanity will have the technological means to make it controlled and safe,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The team was disbanded days after he departed the company, in May 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"order": 16
},
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