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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8381904068\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Avgitidis Pyrgiotakis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Matchmaker and CEO of Agapematch\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@thisshouldbeatrend\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Musician and content creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friends of Close All Tabs: Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Anna Iovine, Tanya Chen, Amanda Silberling, Harriet Weber, and Taj Weaver\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/03/technology/ai-dating-apps.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Don’t Need to Swipe Right. A.I. Is Transforming Dating Apps\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eli Tan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/25/podcasts/location-sharing-relationships.html\">To Share or Not to Share? How Location Sharing Is Changing Our Relationships\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Modern Love Podcast\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/perfection-without-connection-how-ai-is-becoming-digital-wingman-2025-10-04/\">‘Perfection without the connection’: How AI is becoming a digital wingman\u003c/a> — Hani Richter, \u003ci>Reuters\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theatlantic.com/family/2025/09/ai-matchmaking-online-dating/684386/\">The Doomed Dream of an AI Matchmaker\u003c/a> — Faith Hill, \u003ci>The Atlantic\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/book\">Ask A Matchmaker: Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love\u003c/a> — Maria Avgitidis, \u003ci>Matchmaker Maria\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bustle.com/articles/157064-is-u-hauling-real-heres-whats-behind-the-lesbian-stereotype\">Is U-Hauling Real? Here’s What’s Behind The Lesbian Stereotype \u003c/a>— Lea Rose Emery, \u003ci>Bustle\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pagingdrlesbian.com/p/whats-the-deal-with-u-haul-lesbians\">What’s The Deal With U-Haul Lesbians?\u003c/a> — Kira Deshler,\u003ci> Paging Dr. Lesbian\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, covering what we cover on this show, things right now can feel pretty bleak — surveillance culture, environmental injustice, the erosion of constitutional rights, the way algorithms silo and divide us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At a time when it feels like the machines are taking over, we thought we could spend an episode reminding all of you of what makes us most human: Love. And what better time to do that than a commercialized holiday designed to sell mass-produced chocolate? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to our Valentine’s Day episode! Today, we have a little heart shaped box of chocolates for you: three stories about how we connect as humans … even in this modern digital hellscape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether it’s through a human matchmaker, in a sea of AI-powered dating apps, or stumbling across a comment thread of hot singles in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or, literally finding the one and that involves unpacking a very thorny relationship debate: Do you share your location with your partner? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into our first story today. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, dating apps have been part of the romance ecosystem for over a decade. And they can be exhausting. But, we live so much of our lives online these days, and it’s not easy to meet someone in real life either. So some people have taken it upon themselves to play digital matchmaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open up a new tab: Doom scroll speed date. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So picture this: It’s late at night, you’re doomscrolling. Just consuming content until your brain shuts down and you can finally fall asleep. And then you come across a guy who also appears to be laying in bed, in the dark, in the same situation as you. And he starts talking directly to you, through the screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, hi. It appears as though we’re both doom scrolling at the same time right now. Uh, how, how’s it going? What the hell’s going on on your feed right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are doomscroll dates. It’s like a meet-cute, in the middle of the night when neither person should be awake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Actually, you know what? Don’t answer that. Um, it’s getting late. You should probably go to bed and I should probably go to bed, so it was cool bumping into you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joseph Manzo, also known as Jojo Manzo, also known by his TikTok handle, ThisShouldBeATrend, started his TikTok account as marketing research for his job. Then last year, on a whim, Jojo started a series where he pretended to take viewers on dates in the middle of a doom scrolling session.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People started really responding to his series. And Jojo realized that he could use his platform to play matchmaker. So he put together what he calls the doomscroll speed date. I’ll let Jojo tell the story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I noticed how many people in the comment sections of the doom scroll date videos that I was putting out. I, I feel like everyone’s just like craving connection, you know? Speaking for myself, I love being the matchmaker. Like I, I really want to put a bunch of people in a room just to see what happens and hope that some of them fall in love or some of them like connect in some way, shape, or form.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Jojo posted a video asking his audience to respond with comments, and laid out some instructions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, basically the ground rules of this, uh, doom scroll, speed date, is what I called it, is basically post a photo of yourself or a meme that you really like, and then your age and where you’re from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once people did that. Other users were encouraged to leave a reply underneath with a photo of themselves or another meme that might match the energy, and whoever left the original comment, was the only person that is allowed to reach out to someone who replied to them. So that way it kind of respected boundaries on everyone’s parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments poured in, gym selfies, polished headshots, goofy unposed photos that you probably wouldn’t find on a typical dating app profile and lots of memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This user said Dallas, Texas with a meme of a very nefarious cartoon just kind of sticking out their tongue, all like, and then someone said, ain’t too far drive for me with the eye emojis. But as this user, so absolutely put, “I don’t have a meme, but I did see this cool apple in the store the other day. This is flirting, right? Why does this feel like a better dating opportunity than hinge? “\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone decided to post a photo of them on Halloween, dressed as Benjamin Franklin, and yes, this is a woman dressed as Benjamin Franklin, uh, with a 0.5 camera selfie, and also put some of their music taste \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo’s doom scroll speed date video got thousands of comments overnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that post resonated with people so well is because I was almost selling them on a pitch to be like. H Hinge and Bumble aren’t working, but TikTok might work Dating app algorithms are very much like Instagram, like everyone really curates their profiles, whereas I feel like people on TikTok are. A lot more comfortable in being careless. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That kind of just develops this opportunity for people to not feel like there’s so much pressure. like it is a casual interaction. You either connect or you don’t \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: While a lot of people \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">did\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> put themselves out there in the comments, they weren’t getting many replies … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the comments that were coming in were largely women:, \u003c/span>\u003cb>“\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments are full of baddies, but I’m not seeing a male in New York City.” The straight men were not making moves. I actually left a reply to somebody who had asked, “Where are all the men at?” And I think one of my comments verbatim was, “Yo! Respectfully, y’all aren’t flirting enough.” And that comment got lit up with likes and then a lot of replies started coming in for the people who already posted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “38-year-old anime nerd in Columbus, Ohio. Forgive the gym photo, don’t have a lot of full body pictures.” And it’s, it’s a dude in the gym, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, that this person sent high with five eyes and a classic smiley face really, really cheesing. Aw, she’s so cute. With a little cardigan on and the glasses. Aw, I hope they work out. I hope they get to meet up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did not follow up with anyone. Quite frankly, there are thousands of comments on that post that I would have to, I would have to doom scroll the comment section that that’s how many there are and that’s how much time it would take. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think some of the, these ones, like I just mentioned, might have a little bit of merit and I’ll need to reach out to them on the side. Just be like, so, uh, you guys meet up yet? and then there were a lot of, there was actually a lot of requests for me to do this again, but to do it by city, which I haven’t done yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really do think this experiment was a success. I mean, my head canon is that there’s at least one potential couple now, you know, I, I really do feel like. This was a good exercise for people to put themselves out there and, um, for either starting the conversation or to drive the conversation. Um, and man, I really, really hope that I can be invited to somebody’s wedding someday\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo tapped into people’s frustration with dating apps and swipe fatigue and tried to DIY a solution. Like he said, he likes playing matchmaker. Tech companies also say they have a solution, with the hottest feature in dating apps right now: AI matchmakers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But will they actually help? Well, let’s open a new tab. What are AI matchmakers missing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, these aren’t AI companions that would replace human dates. These are AI-powered features to help users connect with dates. Like one called Amata, that talks to users, and then describes them to potential matches. Or Rizz, the digital wingman that analyzes screenshots of messages, and generates a quippy, conversation-sparking response. Sliding into DMs? You can outsource your flirting! There are now dozens of apps that offer AI-powered relationship advice. A dating coach in your pocket, available 24/7. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these features are designed to alleviate swipe fatigue: the mental, emotional, and physical burnout of modern dating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I wanted to hear from a human matchmaker about why she’s so suspicious of integrating AI features into dating apps, and what it really takes to find a match. What’s the secret sauce to meeting new people?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Matchmaker Maria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am Maria Avgitidis better known as Matchmaker Maria, and I am the founder of Agape Match, which is a matchmaking service based out of New York City. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s also an author, and the host of the podcast Ask A Matchmaker. Maria comes from a long line of matchmakers. Before her, her grandmother, her great grandmother, and her great great grandmother were matchmakers in Greece. These previous generations lived through times of famine and political unrest. So back then, matchmaking was really more about building alliances between families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so when I say alliance, you have to think about bartering and trade. And you know, if my family makes milk and your family makes glass bottles, that’s a pretty good match. So these are the things that they were thinking about.They weren’t thinking about are these two people in love? They were thinking about are these families gonna get on. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when my grandmother was matchmaking, first of all, there’s no computers, let alone the internet, let alone mobile phones where we would swipe on potential soulmates while sitting on the couch. And a lot of my clientele now in 2026 and didn’t just start now, it started, I wanna say 11 years ago. In 2015 we started getting the new audience of people who just felt a lot of dating fatigue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it, they didn’t have problem going on dates, you know, they could open up an app, but if it takes too long to go from online to offline, you can feel a bit of dating fatigue. But in 2026 what I see the biggest difference in singles is how the algorithm and also how an AI can reaffirm things that might not necessarily be the right thing for us. And I think about that a lot because, there is a rise in AI in dating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m so glad you brought up AI because that’s what we’re here to talk about today. the biggest trend in, in dating app tech right now is so-called AI matchmaking. Everyone’s trying to get their LLMs to be the next cupid. Um, a lot of them use AI chatbots to basically ask users questions and then match them with other users based on their answers so that they don’t have to build a profile, they don’t have to swipe, removing a lot of that friction, you know, what do you make of this trend?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, first of all, I resent the fact that it’s called matchmaker. just because I’m maybe a generational matchmaker. I know what it takes to be a professional matchmaker. It’s so much about community building. At the end of the day, you know, matchmaking is considered one of the oldest professions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It ranks up there with a midwife and uh, and sex work and, The reason why matchmaking has always existed is because dating is a communal activity. You know, don’t look at yourself right now if you are single, laying on the couch, swiping while an episode of Friends or Big Bang Theory playing in the background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not what dating, that’s not what courtship is supposed to be like. It’s supposed to be your parents meddling. It’s supposed to be your cousin setting up with their friends. It’s your friends setting you up with their friends and you meeting their coworkers at a barbecue. Like dating is a communal effort, ’cause we were not meant to date alone. Humans have this instinct to connect. So that’s the first part, but now what is it exactly doing? And it goes back to my suspicions of, you know, what algorithms and AI can do. I’m not saying that they’re not helpful in certain elements of our jobs, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I just actually put the privacy policy of a social media site on my ChatGPT to be like, what am I, what’s wrong with it? You know, and like, let me know so I don’t have to read the whole privacy policy. So I’m not saying that there’s not some really great benefits with having ai, um, help us, but I do feel like people have a very poor perception of who they actually are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when you talk to an AI, you wanna say really good things about yourself. You’re not necessarily being tasked to look at yourself critically and. Because the AI is built to reaffirm you, even if you’re making a very bad decision. So now take it to dating, what questions are these apps asking to really get to know you, to really understand what kind of partner you will be? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a chat bot can do a really great job at making some assumptions on your horoscope or numerology or your Enneagram because a lot of content in on the internet already exists, where it pulls from. I wonder what kind of content it would pull from to help someone who is experiencing extreme loneliness. And then it goes back to the end of who is this for? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No one’s building an AI matchmaking company from the goodness of their heart. There’s probably gonna be investors, there’s probably gonna be shareholders. There’s probably a company that wants to buy it and someone’s gonna profit. And I’m not saying that a dating company or a dating service provider should not get paid for the work that they do. They should absolutely get paid. I’ll be the first to say it. Hello!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I, as a human matchmaker, have a motivation to get my client into a relationship as quickly as possible, because as a human being, I don’t wanna talk to my clients longer than I have to. Right? Like, I really want them in relationships because I want them to leave me alone. That’s not, that’s an optimistic way of looking at it. Right? I wanna be good at my job. I wanna be a good matchmaker. Right? But dating companies, they don’t have that, they can tell us, oh, you know, it’s not just about shareholders.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, we wanna help people fall in love. Okay. But you, you, you’re not creating apps that are providing that safe environment. Women are looking for. And you are showing men, women that don’t wanna date them, so they’re having a terrible dating experience and all this because they get to pay every month their subscription to make the shareholders happy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a lot of these dating apps or a lot of these, I, I know you hate the term, but that’s what they’re calling themselves, AI matchmakers, um, report to. Yeah. Just take that kind of friction out of, swiping,out of like having to sift through all these new people and all these new profiles. I mean, Facebook’s dating assistant for example, it works by basically telling the chat bot, uh, a bunch of unique traits that you’re looking for in a partner and they will present you with matches. And the example that meta itself used was find me a Brooklyn girl in tech and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The chatbot will present profiles of Brooklyn Girls in Tech. I, it’s not dissimilar to what you do, but also, you know, it’s, it seems to be the final evolution of everything that people have been complaining about when it comes to dating apps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are all living pretty frictionless lives in 2026 in the United States. What I mean by that is you do most things that you need to do on technology on your phone. You can order food through Uber Eats. You can order a car through Lyft you can go to the Starbucks checkout line and actually use the app, not have to interact with a barista at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so when you look at dating, I just said before that, you know, dating was never meant to be done, like solo. It’s supposed to be a communal thing because at the end of the day, should you two work out, the alliance of family is still there. And it, that is important because family is what determines our long-term values, even the ones we don’t agree with. that is where our attachment comes from.That is where our initial beliefs, our initial philosophies in life come from. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like it’s all developed from these families that we are a part of and what we might create, so for dating apps or AI matchmakers, which I hate that I’m even using that word, but whatever, um, what I find really shocking is that it’s because the environment is so frictionless that people are experiencing dating fatigue. Why would you make it even more frictionless? Like, I don’t know how that helps people. and by the way, I’m not anti dating app, but we, we, you don’t have to participate in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a world out there where you could use. An an online tool to get offline. And those tools are called Eventbrite. There’s also social clubs in New York. The fastest growing social club is New York City Backgammon Club. Uh, people, hundreds of people show up to play an ancient game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They put their phones away. And I know that sounds for some people it’s like, ‘oh my God, you want me to go out?’ But you wouldn’t be thinking, this is weird. If it was 2016 or if it was 2006. But now that we have worked from home, now that we have these hybrid work schedules, which again, I’m not against, I think these are fantastic opportunities, but if you’re gonna work from home,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that means you have to put in even more effort to actually be involved in social events.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’ve really talked about how friction is necessary for. Community. You need to be a little uncomfortable to meet people, and that community is the secret to relationships. Can you expand on that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The reason why I say that you have to fill up a social calendar is because it’s not just romantic relationships, but friendships. We have this idea that friendship is supposed to be organic, but romantic relationships are supposed to be intentional. And it’s actually the reverse. Your friendships have always been intentional, right? The friendships you made in high school or in elementary school, it wasn’t your intention, but your parents intended to live in that neighborhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You and your group of friends went to the same school and you met, and through proximity, you became friends. You see this with your college friends, you see this with your work friends. You see this with most adult friendships, that these were intentional choices that had you meet this person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to think that friendship is now organic, it really collapses like how we make friends, because you typically don’t make friends just walking in the supermarket. more than half of you’re wearing AirPods when you go in there. So you know, no one’s really talking to you either. So. The way to create any sort of relationship is we have to have the baseline foundation of friendship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, friendship can only happen with two things in this formula, proximity and familiarity. If your algorithm is only showing you one single race, one single body type, one single lifestyle, then that is what you’re familiar with. And I can understand when people say to me, I’m just not attracted to this, or I’m not attracted to that. I, I get it. Your, your own upbringing is going to influence what you are familiar with. Right? But then there’s that proximity and that re, you know, proximity is also about repetition. You have to have that time invested in that person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you were to develop friendships, if you really put that as your goal in 2026, the odds of you getting a relationship through this friendship circle, through this brand new social circle would exponentially grow. Because the people that are going to have the most influence over what your future looks like at this point is whoever is new to that social circle that you’re developing, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember when I met my spouse, my husband, the people that introduced us, who I intentionally met, I actively did things to meet these people. I had only met them three months before and they completely changed my life and I will forever be grateful for them. But that’s it though, is why did that friendship flourish? Familiarity, proximity. I was constantly seeing them, so that way when I met the rest of their friendship circle. I was familiar with the values that both my spouse and our mutual friend shared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What my grandmother, her mother, and her grandmother did really well was build community and they also understood that marriage was a long term commitment, not necessarily by just two people, but by two families because you know, they had a village and that village has to be there for each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Matchmaker Maria, the host of the podcast Ask a Matchmaker and author of the book, Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ve been talking about how to find someone online and in real life — and hate to break it to you, but sometimes that does involve going outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But once you’ve found the one do you keep tabs on them? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this episode is all about finding love in this very online landscape. And so far, we’ve heard about how people are finding connection — whether it’s through a matchmaker, an AI-powered dating app, or a doom scroll speed date. Now, for the last chocolate in our Valentine’s Day assortment, it’s time for a story about literally finding your love … Or at least, finding your love’s location. And this one’s personal for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? How about opening one last tab?: Did I digitally u-haul?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Chinese folklore, there is the Red Thread of Fate. It’s a magical red cord that connects lovers who are destined to be together, no matter what happens. The lore says that the old god of matchmaking binds the couple together by tying the cord around their ankles or their pinkies, depending on who you ask. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although the cord might twist and tangle, it’ll never break. They’ll always find their way back to each other in the end. Today, we just have Find My Friends. With this nifty little app, you can see all your loved ones as little dots on a map, whenever you want! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with over a dozen people — family members, close friends, and my partner. Over the holidays, a relative who isn’t much older than me was shocked that I’m so cavalier about sharing my location with others. Especially because we just put out an episode on digital hygiene and personal security. And their reaction made me reevaluate some of my online habits: Am I a digital u-hauler? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you aren’t familiar with this, u-hauling is a lesbian stereotype. Many queer women are inclined to develop intense emotional bonds and commit to new relationships, very quickly. So quickly, they move in together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from TikTok account @Madeitoutpodcast]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A u-haul! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was comedian Lea DeLaria recently retelling her 30-year old joke. She first told it during her comedy special in the 90s, and the u-haul lesbian has been a community-defining punchline ever since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, the so-called “urge to merge” is influencing digital habits, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have managed to avoid the stereotype of actually u-hauling. It took me well over a year of dating, and before that, eight years of friendship, to move in with my partner. And in previous relationships, I’d always been adamant that we really know each other before sharing a home. In fact, I didn’t even want to share an Instagram grid. Up until my partner and I got together, I had never hard launched a girlfriend. I always had very firm boundaries in relationships. But when it comes to sharing my location? Maybe it’s a different story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m definitely not the first queer person to hop into the proverbial digital u-haul. For this story, our team asked people to send voice notes about their experiences with location sharing and romance. Our producer Maya Cueva got this voice note from her friend, Taj. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I sent this person, who I was dating, my location and I thought that was fine. They shared their location with me uh, really early on, like probably in the first, like month or two. And at the time I shared locations with all my friends, like 15 people at this time, like, I didn’t think anything of it. Did it early on. Had no idea it was called digital U-Hauling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Ok, it’s not really a thing. I made it up, because I’ve done it so often. \u003cb> \u003c/b>I may not be a serial u-hauler, but I am definitely guilty of \u003ci>digital\u003c/i> u-hauling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it may be a surprise that I myself am guilty of this, because, as a tech journalist you’d think that I’d be more guarded about this. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sharing my location like that felt like wearing my heart on my sleeve. Here! I’m giving you access to my whereabouts all the time! I’m trusting you to find me, but only when it’s socially appropriate! And I would never expect the object of my very trackable affections to send me \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">their \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">location — although, whenever they did reciprocate, it was always like, a nice affirmation that we were on the same page. And more importantly, it was convenient. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Tanya, though, has a completely different approach to this than I do. Tanya is a tech journalist too, and she takes privacy pretty seriously. She sent me this voice note: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s not that I refuse to share my location, especially with, close, uh, trusted friends and family and I have, it’s just something I really prioritize just to be unsearchable and unknowable, just to kind of like be able to exist freely without people knowing where I am. Or bothering me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do not like knowing, you know, where I am. I do like knowing where you are though, but you can’t have a one way situation, uh, relationship as it turns out like that. so if I were to offer my own thoughts on this yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to be really precious about like who you share it with, I mean, for the obvious reason, like precarious stalking stuff. Right? it’s an absolute right. And even, um, now something that’s kind of rare to just like, not have anyone find you. Um, love you. Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> U-hauling may be a lesbian stereotype, but the practice of sharing locations is of course, not exclusive to sapphic relationships. And It’s not always a philosophical debate about privacy and personal freedom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times, it’s just a matter of practicality. Like, I have these friends, Mandy and Jackson. They’re engaged now, been together for six and a half years, and they’ve been sharing their location for most of their relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jackson only shares his location with me, but I actually share my location with 14 people, including my mom. I just, I like to look at my little sims and see where my friends are. When do you check my location? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackson Maxwell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s pretty rare that I do, uh, Mandy recently had a foot surgery a few months ago, and, uh, getting around, uh, with limited mobility on the New York City subway system, really not easy. Uh, getting around on the streets also not easy, so I would just double check \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and similar, I mean, Jackson making sure I’m okay. but Jackson used to have. seizures. and so if he was out like taking a walk or running errands and I hadn’t heard from him for a while, it gave me a lot of peace of mind to be able to see where he was and know that if something happened and he was stuck somewhere, that I would be able to come find him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of our long-term partnership or any long-term partnership as being like the buddy system in school. Like you always have to know, be with your buddy and know where your buddy is. And that’s what, that’s what having a fiance is, is the buddy system. so I just gotta be able to check on my buddy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Location sharing in relationships has been a decade long debate at this point. It’s super polarizing. Some see it as another form of surveillance, while others can’t trust their partners without location sharing. Like, for my friend Amanda, location sharing is a sticking point. Not between Amanda and her boyfriend, but between the couple and everyone else they know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am very online. I am an internet culture reporter. I am professionally, very online. I share my location with a bunch of people, but I don’t have my boyfriend’s location.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is interesting to me how some friends, when I’ve told them I don’t have his location, they’re like, what are you doing? That’s a red flag. Like, is that okay? And I’m like, I don’t think he’s hiding anything. and I don’t think that we should assume that not sharing your location means you’re hiding something. Because like. Like, I think it’s very reasonable to not want someone to know where you are at all times of the day, like as long as he texts me when he gets home, if he’s out late, I don’t really care that I don’t have his location. But then it’s funny because some of our other friends have been like, I would be worried if you did have your, that their location, like that’s a sign of distrust. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s almost like a micro generational gap where people born in like 1998 think it’s weird that I don’t have my boyfriend’s location and people born in like 1994 are like, it would be really weird if you had it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are legitimate reasons to hide or obscure your location, and it’s not always to hide cheating or anything nefarious. On this show, we’re always talking about the surveillance state, and how our right to privacy is getting chipped away every day. Big tech companies are collecting all of our data and selling it off to the highest bidder, all the time. And at the individual level, people do abuse these apps to stalk and monitor and control others. My friend Anna is a journalist who’s covered sex and relationships for years, so I consider her an expert in the realm of love and the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m pretty ambivalent about location sharing because it’s absolutely a tool to surveil people and I ultimately think that breeds more paranoia and, honestly hiding things that don’t need to be hidden. I generally think that more surveillance doesn’t work and just like encourages people to find loopholes.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, Anna and her fiancee, Kat, do share their locations with each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I prefer it that way. I think it’s a great utility. And I ultimately think if someone, if you share your location and someone’s doing something nefarious, they will figure out a way to, um, not be seen. And even in like other ways where you don’t really want someone to know what you’re doing. Like last year when I was. Planning on proposing, um, a week before Kat had plans. So I went to the location and I swapped the location of my device to my iPad. So if Kat did check my location, in that instance I was like, oh, I need her to see that I’m home. So I changed my location. Bu that was like, so galaxy-brained. I was like, what am I doing? But hey, she didn’t find out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a degree of vulnerability involved in sharing locations, especially in a new relationship. In a way, it’s like giving a piece of yourself to another person. Screw the predestined red thread of fate! With a couple of taps, you can give someone\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the other end of a digital tether to yourself. No old god of matchmaking needed! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But not everyone is comfortable with that. My friend Harriet has the complete opposite approach to new relationships than I did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would need to build a lot of trust with someone before wanting to do that. It, it was even a big deal to me to share my location with friends. Um, and I only started doing that because I’ve been going on dates, uh, with total strangers. So if you’re my friend and I’ve shared my location with you, that is a big deal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m honored to be one of the select few that Harriet does share her location with. We swapped locations when she got back on the apps, and wanted to make sure that her friends knew that she got home safe. And since then, it has been really convenient. Like, having each others’ locations came in handy when we were trying to find each other in a crowded park during Pride. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many other people in this story, Harriet is also a tech journalist. Hey, a lot of my friends are, ok? And I, as well as a lot of my friends, are hyperaware of the fact that convenience often comes at the cost of personal privacy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something I have feelings on myself is, um, the feeling of being surveilled. It’s so abstracted that it’s not really in my face, like a camera would be in my face. For example. If, if a camera’s in your face, you’re gonna act a little different, um, regardless of what you’re doing. There’s just something about it that reminds me a little bit too much of like, spyware.I guess it just makes me a little bit uncomfortable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something I had grappled with, amid all of my digital u-hauling antics. You’re giving the other person the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">option\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to surveil you, sure, but you’re also trusting that they won’t. The social contract dictates that location sharing is a sacred bond. When you opt in, you’re agreeing that you’ll only use that connection when it’s appropriate. To me, the inherent vulnerability in location sharing is what makes it feel like such a romantic gesture. I mean, it’s commitment, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t recommend it. Clearly, I think it is a little too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Taj again. They had shared their location after just a month of dating their new girlfriend. Long story short, they aren’t together anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it put a lot of stress in like, I don’t know, a weird surveillance on the relationship and there was a few times where it was like, okay, she could see my location. And she’s like, oh, like, ‘what’s up? You haven’t hit me,’ versus like, oh, maybe you’re just at home focusing on yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It only takes one weird experience to drain the romance out of location sharing. Years ago, amid a breakup, I felt that exact sense of surveillance that Taj was talking about. The whole thing made me a lot more parsimonious about sharing my location especially when there are romantic stakes involved. When it came to finding my dates in crowded places, I had become a big fan of the “share for one hour” option. The other person can see where you are, but that link expires. You get all the convenience, without any of the commitment or vulnerability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then when \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the right time to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">permanently\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> share locations? When do you take that leap of faith? My friend Anna weighed in on this again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t remember having a discussion like, oh, are we gonna share locations now? Or, oh, can I have your location? I’m sure it was an instance where, like, oh, the subway’s down and I’m gonna be late, so why don’t, I’m gonna give you my location so you can see where I am. It definitely felt good. It didn’t feel like as significant as, say, becoming girlfriends or obviously like moving in together or something like that. But it felt nice. It’s like an even deeper level of trust.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My days of digital u-hauling, of sharing and then un-sharing with new people, came to an end three years ago, when my partner and I got together. We were best friends for nearly a decade at that point, and had each others’ locations the entire time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time we finally started dating, we had already established a routine of following the other person’s little blue dot to find each other — at concerts, at the farmer’s market, and yes, even as friends at the giant IKEA in Burbank, California. In fact, I didn’t know her address for a good year, because I would just drive to her location on Find My Friends. Although we didn’t \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">literally\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> u-haul, we were already sharing this hugely vulnerable connection. I don’t remember when we actually \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">started\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> sharing our locations with each other. But I like to think that the red thread of fate bound us together long before an app ever did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In all of my digital u-hauling, things would end, and I would inevitably cut that tether — digital and emotional. But this time, I know it won’t break. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Special thanks to our friends for sending us their location sharing stories: Taj Weaver, Tanya Chen, Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Amanda Silberling, Anna lovine, and Harriet Weber. If there’s anything I love more than love stories, it’s a juicy voice note. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, happy Valentine’s day, lovers. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, with support from Gabriela Glueck. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOur team includes editor Chris Hambrick and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.KQED.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Love In The Time Of Doom Scrolling | KQED",
"description": "In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8381904068\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Avgitidis Pyrgiotakis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Matchmaker and CEO of Agapematch\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@thisshouldbeatrend\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Musician and content creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friends of Close All Tabs: Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Anna Iovine, Tanya Chen, Amanda Silberling, Harriet Weber, and Taj Weaver\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/03/technology/ai-dating-apps.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Don’t Need to Swipe Right. A.I. Is Transforming Dating Apps\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eli Tan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/25/podcasts/location-sharing-relationships.html\">To Share or Not to Share? How Location Sharing Is Changing Our Relationships\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Modern Love Podcast\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/perfection-without-connection-how-ai-is-becoming-digital-wingman-2025-10-04/\">‘Perfection without the connection’: How AI is becoming a digital wingman\u003c/a> — Hani Richter, \u003ci>Reuters\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theatlantic.com/family/2025/09/ai-matchmaking-online-dating/684386/\">The Doomed Dream of an AI Matchmaker\u003c/a> — Faith Hill, \u003ci>The Atlantic\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/book\">Ask A Matchmaker: Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love\u003c/a> — Maria Avgitidis, \u003ci>Matchmaker Maria\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bustle.com/articles/157064-is-u-hauling-real-heres-whats-behind-the-lesbian-stereotype\">Is U-Hauling Real? Here’s What’s Behind The Lesbian Stereotype \u003c/a>— Lea Rose Emery, \u003ci>Bustle\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pagingdrlesbian.com/p/whats-the-deal-with-u-haul-lesbians\">What’s The Deal With U-Haul Lesbians?\u003c/a> — Kira Deshler,\u003ci> Paging Dr. Lesbian\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, covering what we cover on this show, things right now can feel pretty bleak — surveillance culture, environmental injustice, the erosion of constitutional rights, the way algorithms silo and divide us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At a time when it feels like the machines are taking over, we thought we could spend an episode reminding all of you of what makes us most human: Love. And what better time to do that than a commercialized holiday designed to sell mass-produced chocolate? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to our Valentine’s Day episode! Today, we have a little heart shaped box of chocolates for you: three stories about how we connect as humans … even in this modern digital hellscape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether it’s through a human matchmaker, in a sea of AI-powered dating apps, or stumbling across a comment thread of hot singles in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or, literally finding the one and that involves unpacking a very thorny relationship debate: Do you share your location with your partner? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into our first story today. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, dating apps have been part of the romance ecosystem for over a decade. And they can be exhausting. But, we live so much of our lives online these days, and it’s not easy to meet someone in real life either. So some people have taken it upon themselves to play digital matchmaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open up a new tab: Doom scroll speed date. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So picture this: It’s late at night, you’re doomscrolling. Just consuming content until your brain shuts down and you can finally fall asleep. And then you come across a guy who also appears to be laying in bed, in the dark, in the same situation as you. And he starts talking directly to you, through the screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, hi. It appears as though we’re both doom scrolling at the same time right now. Uh, how, how’s it going? What the hell’s going on on your feed right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are doomscroll dates. It’s like a meet-cute, in the middle of the night when neither person should be awake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Actually, you know what? Don’t answer that. Um, it’s getting late. You should probably go to bed and I should probably go to bed, so it was cool bumping into you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joseph Manzo, also known as Jojo Manzo, also known by his TikTok handle, ThisShouldBeATrend, started his TikTok account as marketing research for his job. Then last year, on a whim, Jojo started a series where he pretended to take viewers on dates in the middle of a doom scrolling session.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People started really responding to his series. And Jojo realized that he could use his platform to play matchmaker. So he put together what he calls the doomscroll speed date. I’ll let Jojo tell the story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I noticed how many people in the comment sections of the doom scroll date videos that I was putting out. I, I feel like everyone’s just like craving connection, you know? Speaking for myself, I love being the matchmaker. Like I, I really want to put a bunch of people in a room just to see what happens and hope that some of them fall in love or some of them like connect in some way, shape, or form.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Jojo posted a video asking his audience to respond with comments, and laid out some instructions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, basically the ground rules of this, uh, doom scroll, speed date, is what I called it, is basically post a photo of yourself or a meme that you really like, and then your age and where you’re from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once people did that. Other users were encouraged to leave a reply underneath with a photo of themselves or another meme that might match the energy, and whoever left the original comment, was the only person that is allowed to reach out to someone who replied to them. So that way it kind of respected boundaries on everyone’s parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments poured in, gym selfies, polished headshots, goofy unposed photos that you probably wouldn’t find on a typical dating app profile and lots of memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This user said Dallas, Texas with a meme of a very nefarious cartoon just kind of sticking out their tongue, all like, and then someone said, ain’t too far drive for me with the eye emojis. But as this user, so absolutely put, “I don’t have a meme, but I did see this cool apple in the store the other day. This is flirting, right? Why does this feel like a better dating opportunity than hinge? “\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone decided to post a photo of them on Halloween, dressed as Benjamin Franklin, and yes, this is a woman dressed as Benjamin Franklin, uh, with a 0.5 camera selfie, and also put some of their music taste \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo’s doom scroll speed date video got thousands of comments overnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that post resonated with people so well is because I was almost selling them on a pitch to be like. H Hinge and Bumble aren’t working, but TikTok might work Dating app algorithms are very much like Instagram, like everyone really curates their profiles, whereas I feel like people on TikTok are. A lot more comfortable in being careless. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That kind of just develops this opportunity for people to not feel like there’s so much pressure. like it is a casual interaction. You either connect or you don’t \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: While a lot of people \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">did\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> put themselves out there in the comments, they weren’t getting many replies … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the comments that were coming in were largely women:, \u003c/span>\u003cb>“\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments are full of baddies, but I’m not seeing a male in New York City.” The straight men were not making moves. I actually left a reply to somebody who had asked, “Where are all the men at?” And I think one of my comments verbatim was, “Yo! Respectfully, y’all aren’t flirting enough.” And that comment got lit up with likes and then a lot of replies started coming in for the people who already posted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “38-year-old anime nerd in Columbus, Ohio. Forgive the gym photo, don’t have a lot of full body pictures.” And it’s, it’s a dude in the gym, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, that this person sent high with five eyes and a classic smiley face really, really cheesing. Aw, she’s so cute. With a little cardigan on and the glasses. Aw, I hope they work out. I hope they get to meet up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did not follow up with anyone. Quite frankly, there are thousands of comments on that post that I would have to, I would have to doom scroll the comment section that that’s how many there are and that’s how much time it would take. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think some of the, these ones, like I just mentioned, might have a little bit of merit and I’ll need to reach out to them on the side. Just be like, so, uh, you guys meet up yet? and then there were a lot of, there was actually a lot of requests for me to do this again, but to do it by city, which I haven’t done yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really do think this experiment was a success. I mean, my head canon is that there’s at least one potential couple now, you know, I, I really do feel like. This was a good exercise for people to put themselves out there and, um, for either starting the conversation or to drive the conversation. Um, and man, I really, really hope that I can be invited to somebody’s wedding someday\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo tapped into people’s frustration with dating apps and swipe fatigue and tried to DIY a solution. Like he said, he likes playing matchmaker. Tech companies also say they have a solution, with the hottest feature in dating apps right now: AI matchmakers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But will they actually help? Well, let’s open a new tab. What are AI matchmakers missing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, these aren’t AI companions that would replace human dates. These are AI-powered features to help users connect with dates. Like one called Amata, that talks to users, and then describes them to potential matches. Or Rizz, the digital wingman that analyzes screenshots of messages, and generates a quippy, conversation-sparking response. Sliding into DMs? You can outsource your flirting! There are now dozens of apps that offer AI-powered relationship advice. A dating coach in your pocket, available 24/7. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these features are designed to alleviate swipe fatigue: the mental, emotional, and physical burnout of modern dating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I wanted to hear from a human matchmaker about why she’s so suspicious of integrating AI features into dating apps, and what it really takes to find a match. What’s the secret sauce to meeting new people?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Matchmaker Maria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am Maria Avgitidis better known as Matchmaker Maria, and I am the founder of Agape Match, which is a matchmaking service based out of New York City. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s also an author, and the host of the podcast Ask A Matchmaker. Maria comes from a long line of matchmakers. Before her, her grandmother, her great grandmother, and her great great grandmother were matchmakers in Greece. These previous generations lived through times of famine and political unrest. So back then, matchmaking was really more about building alliances between families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so when I say alliance, you have to think about bartering and trade. And you know, if my family makes milk and your family makes glass bottles, that’s a pretty good match. So these are the things that they were thinking about.They weren’t thinking about are these two people in love? They were thinking about are these families gonna get on. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when my grandmother was matchmaking, first of all, there’s no computers, let alone the internet, let alone mobile phones where we would swipe on potential soulmates while sitting on the couch. And a lot of my clientele now in 2026 and didn’t just start now, it started, I wanna say 11 years ago. In 2015 we started getting the new audience of people who just felt a lot of dating fatigue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it, they didn’t have problem going on dates, you know, they could open up an app, but if it takes too long to go from online to offline, you can feel a bit of dating fatigue. But in 2026 what I see the biggest difference in singles is how the algorithm and also how an AI can reaffirm things that might not necessarily be the right thing for us. And I think about that a lot because, there is a rise in AI in dating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m so glad you brought up AI because that’s what we’re here to talk about today. the biggest trend in, in dating app tech right now is so-called AI matchmaking. Everyone’s trying to get their LLMs to be the next cupid. Um, a lot of them use AI chatbots to basically ask users questions and then match them with other users based on their answers so that they don’t have to build a profile, they don’t have to swipe, removing a lot of that friction, you know, what do you make of this trend?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, first of all, I resent the fact that it’s called matchmaker. just because I’m maybe a generational matchmaker. I know what it takes to be a professional matchmaker. It’s so much about community building. At the end of the day, you know, matchmaking is considered one of the oldest professions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It ranks up there with a midwife and uh, and sex work and, The reason why matchmaking has always existed is because dating is a communal activity. You know, don’t look at yourself right now if you are single, laying on the couch, swiping while an episode of Friends or Big Bang Theory playing in the background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not what dating, that’s not what courtship is supposed to be like. It’s supposed to be your parents meddling. It’s supposed to be your cousin setting up with their friends. It’s your friends setting you up with their friends and you meeting their coworkers at a barbecue. Like dating is a communal effort, ’cause we were not meant to date alone. Humans have this instinct to connect. So that’s the first part, but now what is it exactly doing? And it goes back to my suspicions of, you know, what algorithms and AI can do. I’m not saying that they’re not helpful in certain elements of our jobs, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I just actually put the privacy policy of a social media site on my ChatGPT to be like, what am I, what’s wrong with it? You know, and like, let me know so I don’t have to read the whole privacy policy. So I’m not saying that there’s not some really great benefits with having ai, um, help us, but I do feel like people have a very poor perception of who they actually are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when you talk to an AI, you wanna say really good things about yourself. You’re not necessarily being tasked to look at yourself critically and. Because the AI is built to reaffirm you, even if you’re making a very bad decision. So now take it to dating, what questions are these apps asking to really get to know you, to really understand what kind of partner you will be? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a chat bot can do a really great job at making some assumptions on your horoscope or numerology or your Enneagram because a lot of content in on the internet already exists, where it pulls from. I wonder what kind of content it would pull from to help someone who is experiencing extreme loneliness. And then it goes back to the end of who is this for? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No one’s building an AI matchmaking company from the goodness of their heart. There’s probably gonna be investors, there’s probably gonna be shareholders. There’s probably a company that wants to buy it and someone’s gonna profit. And I’m not saying that a dating company or a dating service provider should not get paid for the work that they do. They should absolutely get paid. I’ll be the first to say it. Hello!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I, as a human matchmaker, have a motivation to get my client into a relationship as quickly as possible, because as a human being, I don’t wanna talk to my clients longer than I have to. Right? Like, I really want them in relationships because I want them to leave me alone. That’s not, that’s an optimistic way of looking at it. Right? I wanna be good at my job. I wanna be a good matchmaker. Right? But dating companies, they don’t have that, they can tell us, oh, you know, it’s not just about shareholders.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, we wanna help people fall in love. Okay. But you, you, you’re not creating apps that are providing that safe environment. Women are looking for. And you are showing men, women that don’t wanna date them, so they’re having a terrible dating experience and all this because they get to pay every month their subscription to make the shareholders happy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a lot of these dating apps or a lot of these, I, I know you hate the term, but that’s what they’re calling themselves, AI matchmakers, um, report to. Yeah. Just take that kind of friction out of, swiping,out of like having to sift through all these new people and all these new profiles. I mean, Facebook’s dating assistant for example, it works by basically telling the chat bot, uh, a bunch of unique traits that you’re looking for in a partner and they will present you with matches. And the example that meta itself used was find me a Brooklyn girl in tech and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The chatbot will present profiles of Brooklyn Girls in Tech. I, it’s not dissimilar to what you do, but also, you know, it’s, it seems to be the final evolution of everything that people have been complaining about when it comes to dating apps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are all living pretty frictionless lives in 2026 in the United States. What I mean by that is you do most things that you need to do on technology on your phone. You can order food through Uber Eats. You can order a car through Lyft you can go to the Starbucks checkout line and actually use the app, not have to interact with a barista at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so when you look at dating, I just said before that, you know, dating was never meant to be done, like solo. It’s supposed to be a communal thing because at the end of the day, should you two work out, the alliance of family is still there. And it, that is important because family is what determines our long-term values, even the ones we don’t agree with. that is where our attachment comes from.That is where our initial beliefs, our initial philosophies in life come from. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like it’s all developed from these families that we are a part of and what we might create, so for dating apps or AI matchmakers, which I hate that I’m even using that word, but whatever, um, what I find really shocking is that it’s because the environment is so frictionless that people are experiencing dating fatigue. Why would you make it even more frictionless? Like, I don’t know how that helps people. and by the way, I’m not anti dating app, but we, we, you don’t have to participate in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a world out there where you could use. An an online tool to get offline. And those tools are called Eventbrite. There’s also social clubs in New York. The fastest growing social club is New York City Backgammon Club. Uh, people, hundreds of people show up to play an ancient game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They put their phones away. And I know that sounds for some people it’s like, ‘oh my God, you want me to go out?’ But you wouldn’t be thinking, this is weird. If it was 2016 or if it was 2006. But now that we have worked from home, now that we have these hybrid work schedules, which again, I’m not against, I think these are fantastic opportunities, but if you’re gonna work from home,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that means you have to put in even more effort to actually be involved in social events.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’ve really talked about how friction is necessary for. Community. You need to be a little uncomfortable to meet people, and that community is the secret to relationships. Can you expand on that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The reason why I say that you have to fill up a social calendar is because it’s not just romantic relationships, but friendships. We have this idea that friendship is supposed to be organic, but romantic relationships are supposed to be intentional. And it’s actually the reverse. Your friendships have always been intentional, right? The friendships you made in high school or in elementary school, it wasn’t your intention, but your parents intended to live in that neighborhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You and your group of friends went to the same school and you met, and through proximity, you became friends. You see this with your college friends, you see this with your work friends. You see this with most adult friendships, that these were intentional choices that had you meet this person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to think that friendship is now organic, it really collapses like how we make friends, because you typically don’t make friends just walking in the supermarket. more than half of you’re wearing AirPods when you go in there. So you know, no one’s really talking to you either. So. The way to create any sort of relationship is we have to have the baseline foundation of friendship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, friendship can only happen with two things in this formula, proximity and familiarity. If your algorithm is only showing you one single race, one single body type, one single lifestyle, then that is what you’re familiar with. And I can understand when people say to me, I’m just not attracted to this, or I’m not attracted to that. I, I get it. Your, your own upbringing is going to influence what you are familiar with. Right? But then there’s that proximity and that re, you know, proximity is also about repetition. You have to have that time invested in that person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you were to develop friendships, if you really put that as your goal in 2026, the odds of you getting a relationship through this friendship circle, through this brand new social circle would exponentially grow. Because the people that are going to have the most influence over what your future looks like at this point is whoever is new to that social circle that you’re developing, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember when I met my spouse, my husband, the people that introduced us, who I intentionally met, I actively did things to meet these people. I had only met them three months before and they completely changed my life and I will forever be grateful for them. But that’s it though, is why did that friendship flourish? Familiarity, proximity. I was constantly seeing them, so that way when I met the rest of their friendship circle. I was familiar with the values that both my spouse and our mutual friend shared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What my grandmother, her mother, and her grandmother did really well was build community and they also understood that marriage was a long term commitment, not necessarily by just two people, but by two families because you know, they had a village and that village has to be there for each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Matchmaker Maria, the host of the podcast Ask a Matchmaker and author of the book, Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ve been talking about how to find someone online and in real life — and hate to break it to you, but sometimes that does involve going outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But once you’ve found the one do you keep tabs on them? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this episode is all about finding love in this very online landscape. And so far, we’ve heard about how people are finding connection — whether it’s through a matchmaker, an AI-powered dating app, or a doom scroll speed date. Now, for the last chocolate in our Valentine’s Day assortment, it’s time for a story about literally finding your love … Or at least, finding your love’s location. And this one’s personal for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? How about opening one last tab?: Did I digitally u-haul?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Chinese folklore, there is the Red Thread of Fate. It’s a magical red cord that connects lovers who are destined to be together, no matter what happens. The lore says that the old god of matchmaking binds the couple together by tying the cord around their ankles or their pinkies, depending on who you ask. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although the cord might twist and tangle, it’ll never break. They’ll always find their way back to each other in the end. Today, we just have Find My Friends. With this nifty little app, you can see all your loved ones as little dots on a map, whenever you want! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with over a dozen people — family members, close friends, and my partner. Over the holidays, a relative who isn’t much older than me was shocked that I’m so cavalier about sharing my location with others. Especially because we just put out an episode on digital hygiene and personal security. And their reaction made me reevaluate some of my online habits: Am I a digital u-hauler? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you aren’t familiar with this, u-hauling is a lesbian stereotype. Many queer women are inclined to develop intense emotional bonds and commit to new relationships, very quickly. So quickly, they move in together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from TikTok account @Madeitoutpodcast]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A u-haul! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was comedian Lea DeLaria recently retelling her 30-year old joke. She first told it during her comedy special in the 90s, and the u-haul lesbian has been a community-defining punchline ever since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, the so-called “urge to merge” is influencing digital habits, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have managed to avoid the stereotype of actually u-hauling. It took me well over a year of dating, and before that, eight years of friendship, to move in with my partner. And in previous relationships, I’d always been adamant that we really know each other before sharing a home. In fact, I didn’t even want to share an Instagram grid. Up until my partner and I got together, I had never hard launched a girlfriend. I always had very firm boundaries in relationships. But when it comes to sharing my location? Maybe it’s a different story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m definitely not the first queer person to hop into the proverbial digital u-haul. For this story, our team asked people to send voice notes about their experiences with location sharing and romance. Our producer Maya Cueva got this voice note from her friend, Taj. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I sent this person, who I was dating, my location and I thought that was fine. They shared their location with me uh, really early on, like probably in the first, like month or two. And at the time I shared locations with all my friends, like 15 people at this time, like, I didn’t think anything of it. Did it early on. Had no idea it was called digital U-Hauling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Ok, it’s not really a thing. I made it up, because I’ve done it so often. \u003cb> \u003c/b>I may not be a serial u-hauler, but I am definitely guilty of \u003ci>digital\u003c/i> u-hauling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it may be a surprise that I myself am guilty of this, because, as a tech journalist you’d think that I’d be more guarded about this. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sharing my location like that felt like wearing my heart on my sleeve. Here! I’m giving you access to my whereabouts all the time! I’m trusting you to find me, but only when it’s socially appropriate! And I would never expect the object of my very trackable affections to send me \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">their \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">location — although, whenever they did reciprocate, it was always like, a nice affirmation that we were on the same page. And more importantly, it was convenient. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Tanya, though, has a completely different approach to this than I do. Tanya is a tech journalist too, and she takes privacy pretty seriously. She sent me this voice note: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s not that I refuse to share my location, especially with, close, uh, trusted friends and family and I have, it’s just something I really prioritize just to be unsearchable and unknowable, just to kind of like be able to exist freely without people knowing where I am. Or bothering me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do not like knowing, you know, where I am. I do like knowing where you are though, but you can’t have a one way situation, uh, relationship as it turns out like that. so if I were to offer my own thoughts on this yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to be really precious about like who you share it with, I mean, for the obvious reason, like precarious stalking stuff. Right? it’s an absolute right. And even, um, now something that’s kind of rare to just like, not have anyone find you. Um, love you. Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> U-hauling may be a lesbian stereotype, but the practice of sharing locations is of course, not exclusive to sapphic relationships. And It’s not always a philosophical debate about privacy and personal freedom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times, it’s just a matter of practicality. Like, I have these friends, Mandy and Jackson. They’re engaged now, been together for six and a half years, and they’ve been sharing their location for most of their relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jackson only shares his location with me, but I actually share my location with 14 people, including my mom. I just, I like to look at my little sims and see where my friends are. When do you check my location? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackson Maxwell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s pretty rare that I do, uh, Mandy recently had a foot surgery a few months ago, and, uh, getting around, uh, with limited mobility on the New York City subway system, really not easy. Uh, getting around on the streets also not easy, so I would just double check \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and similar, I mean, Jackson making sure I’m okay. but Jackson used to have. seizures. and so if he was out like taking a walk or running errands and I hadn’t heard from him for a while, it gave me a lot of peace of mind to be able to see where he was and know that if something happened and he was stuck somewhere, that I would be able to come find him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of our long-term partnership or any long-term partnership as being like the buddy system in school. Like you always have to know, be with your buddy and know where your buddy is. And that’s what, that’s what having a fiance is, is the buddy system. so I just gotta be able to check on my buddy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Location sharing in relationships has been a decade long debate at this point. It’s super polarizing. Some see it as another form of surveillance, while others can’t trust their partners without location sharing. Like, for my friend Amanda, location sharing is a sticking point. Not between Amanda and her boyfriend, but between the couple and everyone else they know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am very online. I am an internet culture reporter. I am professionally, very online. I share my location with a bunch of people, but I don’t have my boyfriend’s location.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is interesting to me how some friends, when I’ve told them I don’t have his location, they’re like, what are you doing? That’s a red flag. Like, is that okay? And I’m like, I don’t think he’s hiding anything. and I don’t think that we should assume that not sharing your location means you’re hiding something. Because like. Like, I think it’s very reasonable to not want someone to know where you are at all times of the day, like as long as he texts me when he gets home, if he’s out late, I don’t really care that I don’t have his location. But then it’s funny because some of our other friends have been like, I would be worried if you did have your, that their location, like that’s a sign of distrust. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s almost like a micro generational gap where people born in like 1998 think it’s weird that I don’t have my boyfriend’s location and people born in like 1994 are like, it would be really weird if you had it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are legitimate reasons to hide or obscure your location, and it’s not always to hide cheating or anything nefarious. On this show, we’re always talking about the surveillance state, and how our right to privacy is getting chipped away every day. Big tech companies are collecting all of our data and selling it off to the highest bidder, all the time. And at the individual level, people do abuse these apps to stalk and monitor and control others. My friend Anna is a journalist who’s covered sex and relationships for years, so I consider her an expert in the realm of love and the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m pretty ambivalent about location sharing because it’s absolutely a tool to surveil people and I ultimately think that breeds more paranoia and, honestly hiding things that don’t need to be hidden. I generally think that more surveillance doesn’t work and just like encourages people to find loopholes.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, Anna and her fiancee, Kat, do share their locations with each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I prefer it that way. I think it’s a great utility. And I ultimately think if someone, if you share your location and someone’s doing something nefarious, they will figure out a way to, um, not be seen. And even in like other ways where you don’t really want someone to know what you’re doing. Like last year when I was. Planning on proposing, um, a week before Kat had plans. So I went to the location and I swapped the location of my device to my iPad. So if Kat did check my location, in that instance I was like, oh, I need her to see that I’m home. So I changed my location. Bu that was like, so galaxy-brained. I was like, what am I doing? But hey, she didn’t find out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a degree of vulnerability involved in sharing locations, especially in a new relationship. In a way, it’s like giving a piece of yourself to another person. Screw the predestined red thread of fate! With a couple of taps, you can give someone\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the other end of a digital tether to yourself. No old god of matchmaking needed! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But not everyone is comfortable with that. My friend Harriet has the complete opposite approach to new relationships than I did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would need to build a lot of trust with someone before wanting to do that. It, it was even a big deal to me to share my location with friends. Um, and I only started doing that because I’ve been going on dates, uh, with total strangers. So if you’re my friend and I’ve shared my location with you, that is a big deal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m honored to be one of the select few that Harriet does share her location with. We swapped locations when she got back on the apps, and wanted to make sure that her friends knew that she got home safe. And since then, it has been really convenient. Like, having each others’ locations came in handy when we were trying to find each other in a crowded park during Pride. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many other people in this story, Harriet is also a tech journalist. Hey, a lot of my friends are, ok? And I, as well as a lot of my friends, are hyperaware of the fact that convenience often comes at the cost of personal privacy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something I have feelings on myself is, um, the feeling of being surveilled. It’s so abstracted that it’s not really in my face, like a camera would be in my face. For example. If, if a camera’s in your face, you’re gonna act a little different, um, regardless of what you’re doing. There’s just something about it that reminds me a little bit too much of like, spyware.I guess it just makes me a little bit uncomfortable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something I had grappled with, amid all of my digital u-hauling antics. You’re giving the other person the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">option\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to surveil you, sure, but you’re also trusting that they won’t. The social contract dictates that location sharing is a sacred bond. When you opt in, you’re agreeing that you’ll only use that connection when it’s appropriate. To me, the inherent vulnerability in location sharing is what makes it feel like such a romantic gesture. I mean, it’s commitment, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t recommend it. Clearly, I think it is a little too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Taj again. They had shared their location after just a month of dating their new girlfriend. Long story short, they aren’t together anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it put a lot of stress in like, I don’t know, a weird surveillance on the relationship and there was a few times where it was like, okay, she could see my location. And she’s like, oh, like, ‘what’s up? You haven’t hit me,’ versus like, oh, maybe you’re just at home focusing on yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It only takes one weird experience to drain the romance out of location sharing. Years ago, amid a breakup, I felt that exact sense of surveillance that Taj was talking about. The whole thing made me a lot more parsimonious about sharing my location especially when there are romantic stakes involved. When it came to finding my dates in crowded places, I had become a big fan of the “share for one hour” option. The other person can see where you are, but that link expires. You get all the convenience, without any of the commitment or vulnerability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then when \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the right time to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">permanently\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> share locations? When do you take that leap of faith? My friend Anna weighed in on this again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t remember having a discussion like, oh, are we gonna share locations now? Or, oh, can I have your location? I’m sure it was an instance where, like, oh, the subway’s down and I’m gonna be late, so why don’t, I’m gonna give you my location so you can see where I am. It definitely felt good. It didn’t feel like as significant as, say, becoming girlfriends or obviously like moving in together or something like that. But it felt nice. It’s like an even deeper level of trust.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My days of digital u-hauling, of sharing and then un-sharing with new people, came to an end three years ago, when my partner and I got together. We were best friends for nearly a decade at that point, and had each others’ locations the entire time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time we finally started dating, we had already established a routine of following the other person’s little blue dot to find each other — at concerts, at the farmer’s market, and yes, even as friends at the giant IKEA in Burbank, California. In fact, I didn’t know her address for a good year, because I would just drive to her location on Find My Friends. Although we didn’t \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">literally\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> u-haul, we were already sharing this hugely vulnerable connection. I don’t remember when we actually \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">started\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> sharing our locations with each other. But I like to think that the red thread of fate bound us together long before an app ever did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In all of my digital u-hauling, things would end, and I would inevitably cut that tether — digital and emotional. But this time, I know it won’t break. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Special thanks to our friends for sending us their location sharing stories: Taj Weaver, Tanya Chen, Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Amanda Silberling, Anna lovine, and Harriet Weber. If there’s anything I love more than love stories, it’s a juicy voice note. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, happy Valentine’s day, lovers. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, with support from Gabriela Glueck. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOur team includes editor Chris Hambrick and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.KQED.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1658905284\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/dormiya-vance/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya Vance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Southside reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/marlon-hyde/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlon Hyde\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, business reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/data-centers-are-growing-faster-in-atlanta-than-anywhere-else-in-the-us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers power our online lives. The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A full transcript will be available 1–2 workdays after the episode’s publication.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1658905284\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/dormiya-vance/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya Vance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Southside reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/marlon-hyde/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlon Hyde\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, business reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/data-centers-are-growing-faster-in-atlanta-than-anywhere-else-in-the-us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers power our online lives. The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-real-cost-of-ai-slop",
"title": "The Real Cost of AI Slop",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning 🧠\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "The Real Cost of AI Slop | KQED",
"description": "How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use. Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning 🧠\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police departments say automated license plate readers — or ALPRs — made by an Atlanta-based company called Flock Safety area powerful tool for solving crime. But residents and privacy advocates are increasingly concerned about the impacts on our privacy, as the Trump administration continues its federal immigration crackdown. In Santa Cruz, the city council voted 6-1 to end its contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data was accessed by out-of-state agencies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Santa Cruz the First in California to Terminate Its Contract With Flock Safety\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/01/15/san-jose-police-federal-searches-license-plate-data-violation-state-law/?campaign=sjmnbreakingnews&utm_email=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1&active=no&lctg=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Jose latest city to face questions whether federal authorities are accessing police license plate camera data\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz-Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Santa Cruz just became the first city in California to end its contract with Flock Safety, the company behind powerful license plate readers that police say help them solve crimes. But more and more people are raising alarm bells about the cost to our privacy after reports that data collected from these cameras had been shared with the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] We’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble and asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] Concerns around federal law enforcement have reached a fever pitch after an ICE agent shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis last week. And in California sanctuary cities, many worry the powerful data gathered by these surveillance tools could end up in the wrong hands. Today, how Bay Area cities are weighing the cost and benefits of automated license plate readers. Rachael, I think I actually want to start with just having you kind of telling me about the time that you were living in SoCal and you got a ticket in the mail, a speeding ticket?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] It wasn’t a speeding ticket. I just want to correct the record there.It was a red light camera ticket because I failed to stop completely before making a right turn. This was technically a moving violation, so I’m not trying to relitigate here, Ericka, but I do want to talk about what came with the ticket in the mail. And this is 25 years ago. This computer-generated printout that included all the details of my car. License plate, make and model, I guess a shot of it moving through the intersection, and then a close-up of my face. So it was pretty incontrovertible. Who was at fault and what happened. Today, license plate readers can track a car, track the driver across cities and the country. Which makes the surveillance an awesome tool for crime fighting, but also for oppression, especially now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:53] Yeah, you’re basically describing 25 years ago what was sort of a basic function of automated license plate cameras, but now they’re just so much more sophisticated as you’ve just been describing. And in the Bay Area and across the US, probably the biggest company that’s been contracting these license plate camera is this company called Flock Safety out of Atlanta, right? Tell me a little bit more about Flock and why so many cities have contracts with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:03:26] So like you say, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta. It’s grown incredibly fast by selling what I would describe as a plug-and-play surveillance network. So we call them automated license plate readers, right, or ALPRs. But they capture so much more than just the license plate. Flock and its competitors in the industry use high-resolution, networked cameras powered by AI. So they log time and location of vehicles, make, model, color, roof racks, decals, dents. So you can get really granular in a way that you couldn’t with those old red light cameras. Law enforcement agencies, as you might expect, but also homeowners associations, business districts, they like Flock, too, because the cameras come with analytical tools that are really helpful, police departments say, to help solve crimes, especially car thefts and burglaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:33] And I mean, there are a bunch of California cities with these automated license plate readers from Flock, right? Who are some of Flock’s biggest customers here in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] So I mentioned that it’s not just law enforcement, but also transit agencies, campus police, special districts, business districts, like the Chinatown business district in Oakland. More than 200 municipalities, so San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Berkeley, as well. And until recently, Santa Cruz was on that list, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] Right, and I want to talk about Santa Cruz for a little bit, because they just made some news this week for becoming what might be the first California city to actually end its contract with Flock. What happened in Santa Cruz?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] So Santa Cruz learned back in November that Flock had enabled a national search feature that could allow out-of-state agencies to access California data. What really sort of pushed their push to quit Flock over the edge was a recently formed grassroots group called Get the Flock Out. They laid out a case that included the finding that between June and October of 2025, state agencies accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times on behalf of federal law enforcement. So that includes ICE. That raised alarm bells. So community members organized to make the case, and city leaders said they weren’t comfortable continuing until they could guarantee that the local data wasn’t being exposed beyond what residents were told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:41] The council has, over the years, gotten more and more concerned about this, especially the last 12, 13 months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] Santa Cruz Mayor Fred Keeley will tell you that he has been nervous about mass surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] I’m one of those sort of civil libertarians, you know, yes, I do have something to worry about even if I’m not behaving badly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:06] He basically said, even if the intent is local crime-fighting, the risk that this data could be used against Santa Cruz County residents is just too high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:07:18] In our country, I think we always have to wrestle with the constitutional protections which we all have and efforts to chip away at those protections citizens have from their government. For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we to get from the flawed product.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:49] They voted 6-1 in favor of terminating the contract.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:57] Santa Cruz isn’t the only place where license plate reader data has been leaked. In San Francisco, reporting from 404 Media and the San Francisco Standard showed that SFPD employees had searched local data for federal law enforcement investigations and also illegally shared city data with out-of-state cops. Now, as the Trump administration continues its immigration crackdown. Privacy advocates are even more worried.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:32] There are a growing number of cities in the Bay Area and across California that are hitting the pause button, saying, hey, let’s just reevaluate. There’s even one city, I believe it’s Eureka in Northern California, which has said, hey, we’re not going to enter into this contract because of everything we’re hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:53] How does Flock respond to these concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] Flock says cities and counties and whoever. The client, the customer, controls who gets access, how long the data is stored, and the company does not share the data with the federal government or anybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] Every single city, every county, every individual agency gets to choose who they share with. And if they want to reduce that kind of risk, they can choose not to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:25] Trevor Chandler, Director of Public Affairs for Flock, explained to me that Flock’s technology allows the customer to set the controls, how long the data is held, what other law enforcement agencies can run searches on Santa Cruz’s data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:41] We are the most transparent tool that law enforcement uses, period. I challenge anyone to name a more transparent tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:48] If Flock receives, say, a warrant from a federal agency, it directs those demands to the municipality involved. They argue the problem isn’t the technology, it’s how individual customers are governing the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:10:04] And the reason that we’re having these, you know, important conversations about data sharing and privacy and public safety is because of that transparency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:14] Why are people still so worried about this data if cities who have these contracts have complete control over what happens to the data?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:23] If the door is held open to a bunch of agencies in California, you can see how easy it becomes for any individual in any of those agencies to search for and or share data with anybody, including somebody out of state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] And people are finally recognizing that there’s real world harm here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:44] Privacy advocate Brian Hofer of Secure Justice is suing two cities, Oakland and San Francisco, not Flock, arguing the problem isn’t just Flock’s technology, but the inability or the unwillingness of city officials and attorneys to closely monitor usage to ensure compliance with California’s privacy and sanctuary laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:11] It’s been extra frustrating in California where we hold ourselves out as a sanctuary state. And yet when it comes to data privacy, we have these practices that are putting people in harm’s way, clearly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:11:26] Any network is only as strong as its weakest link. If one agency misconfigures access or shares too broadly, that data can end up far beyond California. Separately, once data exists, it can be subpoenaed. Local laws don’t stop federal warrants. That’s the way our legal system works. But also we’re living in a world now where many federal law enforcement agencies aren’t even bothering with warrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:59] We’re in a very different political moment than we’ve ever been before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:07] And there are still some several Bay Area cities that still have active contracts with Flock, right? Oakland just expanded its use of these cameras. What do you think this conversation around these automated license plate readers, what do you it says about this moment that we seem to find ourselves in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:12:31] It’s a wonderful window into the tension between safety and trust. Cities are under pressure to respond to crime. And hey, I’m a Bay Area resident. I want to know if law enforcement is going to follow up if there is an incident. And if technology helps, I feel the appeal of it. But we’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble. And asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves. Santa Cruz stepping away, and also Oakland doubling down. I think both examples demonstrate in a really neat package of headlines how many Californians are really deeply divided right now over this question. How much monitoring is too much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:33] Rachael, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:13:35] Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police departments say automated license plate readers — or ALPRs — made by an Atlanta-based company called Flock Safety area powerful tool for solving crime. But residents and privacy advocates are increasingly concerned about the impacts on our privacy, as the Trump administration continues its federal immigration crackdown. In Santa Cruz, the city council voted 6-1 to end its contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data was accessed by out-of-state agencies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Santa Cruz the First in California to Terminate Its Contract With Flock Safety\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/01/15/san-jose-police-federal-searches-license-plate-data-violation-state-law/?campaign=sjmnbreakingnews&utm_email=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1&active=no&lctg=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Jose latest city to face questions whether federal authorities are accessing police license plate camera data\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz-Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Santa Cruz just became the first city in California to end its contract with Flock Safety, the company behind powerful license plate readers that police say help them solve crimes. But more and more people are raising alarm bells about the cost to our privacy after reports that data collected from these cameras had been shared with the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] We’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble and asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] Concerns around federal law enforcement have reached a fever pitch after an ICE agent shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis last week. And in California sanctuary cities, many worry the powerful data gathered by these surveillance tools could end up in the wrong hands. Today, how Bay Area cities are weighing the cost and benefits of automated license plate readers. Rachael, I think I actually want to start with just having you kind of telling me about the time that you were living in SoCal and you got a ticket in the mail, a speeding ticket?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] It wasn’t a speeding ticket. I just want to correct the record there.It was a red light camera ticket because I failed to stop completely before making a right turn. This was technically a moving violation, so I’m not trying to relitigate here, Ericka, but I do want to talk about what came with the ticket in the mail. And this is 25 years ago. This computer-generated printout that included all the details of my car. License plate, make and model, I guess a shot of it moving through the intersection, and then a close-up of my face. So it was pretty incontrovertible. Who was at fault and what happened. Today, license plate readers can track a car, track the driver across cities and the country. Which makes the surveillance an awesome tool for crime fighting, but also for oppression, especially now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:53] Yeah, you’re basically describing 25 years ago what was sort of a basic function of automated license plate cameras, but now they’re just so much more sophisticated as you’ve just been describing. And in the Bay Area and across the US, probably the biggest company that’s been contracting these license plate camera is this company called Flock Safety out of Atlanta, right? Tell me a little bit more about Flock and why so many cities have contracts with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:03:26] So like you say, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta. It’s grown incredibly fast by selling what I would describe as a plug-and-play surveillance network. So we call them automated license plate readers, right, or ALPRs. But they capture so much more than just the license plate. Flock and its competitors in the industry use high-resolution, networked cameras powered by AI. So they log time and location of vehicles, make, model, color, roof racks, decals, dents. So you can get really granular in a way that you couldn’t with those old red light cameras. Law enforcement agencies, as you might expect, but also homeowners associations, business districts, they like Flock, too, because the cameras come with analytical tools that are really helpful, police departments say, to help solve crimes, especially car thefts and burglaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:33] And I mean, there are a bunch of California cities with these automated license plate readers from Flock, right? Who are some of Flock’s biggest customers here in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] So I mentioned that it’s not just law enforcement, but also transit agencies, campus police, special districts, business districts, like the Chinatown business district in Oakland. More than 200 municipalities, so San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Berkeley, as well. And until recently, Santa Cruz was on that list, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] Right, and I want to talk about Santa Cruz for a little bit, because they just made some news this week for becoming what might be the first California city to actually end its contract with Flock. What happened in Santa Cruz?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] So Santa Cruz learned back in November that Flock had enabled a national search feature that could allow out-of-state agencies to access California data. What really sort of pushed their push to quit Flock over the edge was a recently formed grassroots group called Get the Flock Out. They laid out a case that included the finding that between June and October of 2025, state agencies accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times on behalf of federal law enforcement. So that includes ICE. That raised alarm bells. So community members organized to make the case, and city leaders said they weren’t comfortable continuing until they could guarantee that the local data wasn’t being exposed beyond what residents were told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:41] The council has, over the years, gotten more and more concerned about this, especially the last 12, 13 months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] Santa Cruz Mayor Fred Keeley will tell you that he has been nervous about mass surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] I’m one of those sort of civil libertarians, you know, yes, I do have something to worry about even if I’m not behaving badly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:06] He basically said, even if the intent is local crime-fighting, the risk that this data could be used against Santa Cruz County residents is just too high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:07:18] In our country, I think we always have to wrestle with the constitutional protections which we all have and efforts to chip away at those protections citizens have from their government. For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we to get from the flawed product.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:49] They voted 6-1 in favor of terminating the contract.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:57] Santa Cruz isn’t the only place where license plate reader data has been leaked. In San Francisco, reporting from 404 Media and the San Francisco Standard showed that SFPD employees had searched local data for federal law enforcement investigations and also illegally shared city data with out-of-state cops. Now, as the Trump administration continues its immigration crackdown. Privacy advocates are even more worried.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:32] There are a growing number of cities in the Bay Area and across California that are hitting the pause button, saying, hey, let’s just reevaluate. There’s even one city, I believe it’s Eureka in Northern California, which has said, hey, we’re not going to enter into this contract because of everything we’re hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:53] How does Flock respond to these concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] Flock says cities and counties and whoever. The client, the customer, controls who gets access, how long the data is stored, and the company does not share the data with the federal government or anybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] Every single city, every county, every individual agency gets to choose who they share with. And if they want to reduce that kind of risk, they can choose not to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:25] Trevor Chandler, Director of Public Affairs for Flock, explained to me that Flock’s technology allows the customer to set the controls, how long the data is held, what other law enforcement agencies can run searches on Santa Cruz’s data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:41] We are the most transparent tool that law enforcement uses, period. I challenge anyone to name a more transparent tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:48] If Flock receives, say, a warrant from a federal agency, it directs those demands to the municipality involved. They argue the problem isn’t the technology, it’s how individual customers are governing the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:10:04] And the reason that we’re having these, you know, important conversations about data sharing and privacy and public safety is because of that transparency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:14] Why are people still so worried about this data if cities who have these contracts have complete control over what happens to the data?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:23] If the door is held open to a bunch of agencies in California, you can see how easy it becomes for any individual in any of those agencies to search for and or share data with anybody, including somebody out of state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] And people are finally recognizing that there’s real world harm here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:44] Privacy advocate Brian Hofer of Secure Justice is suing two cities, Oakland and San Francisco, not Flock, arguing the problem isn’t just Flock’s technology, but the inability or the unwillingness of city officials and attorneys to closely monitor usage to ensure compliance with California’s privacy and sanctuary laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:11] It’s been extra frustrating in California where we hold ourselves out as a sanctuary state. And yet when it comes to data privacy, we have these practices that are putting people in harm’s way, clearly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:11:26] Any network is only as strong as its weakest link. If one agency misconfigures access or shares too broadly, that data can end up far beyond California. Separately, once data exists, it can be subpoenaed. Local laws don’t stop federal warrants. That’s the way our legal system works. But also we’re living in a world now where many federal law enforcement agencies aren’t even bothering with warrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:59] We’re in a very different political moment than we’ve ever been before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:07] And there are still some several Bay Area cities that still have active contracts with Flock, right? Oakland just expanded its use of these cameras. What do you think this conversation around these automated license plate readers, what do you it says about this moment that we seem to find ourselves in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:12:31] It’s a wonderful window into the tension between safety and trust. Cities are under pressure to respond to crime. And hey, I’m a Bay Area resident. I want to know if law enforcement is going to follow up if there is an incident. And if technology helps, I feel the appeal of it. But we’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble. And asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves. Santa Cruz stepping away, and also Oakland doubling down. I think both examples demonstrate in a really neat package of headlines how many Californians are really deeply divided right now over this question. How much monitoring is too much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:33] Rachael, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:13:35] Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Save or Scroll: OpenAI’s Head of Preparedness, Global RAM Shortage, AI Artists, and a Manosphere Antidote",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Trump’s AI Order Provokes Pushback from California Officials and Consumer Advocates",
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"content": "\u003cp>In the last decade, California has passed 42 laws to regulate artificial intelligence, more than any other state, according to \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2025-ai-index-report\">Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI\u003c/a>. So it comes as no surprise that state leaders reacted with ire to President Donald Trump’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/12/eliminating-state-law-obstruction-of-national-artificial-intelligence-policy/\">executive order\u003c/a> slapping down state efforts to regulate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The clash highlights the growing friction between California’s push for consumer protections and the tech industry’s efforts to neutralize regulation. The executive order follows \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/the-silicon-valley-campaign-to-win-trump-over-on-ai-regulation-214bd6bd\">previous failures\u003c/a> led by Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks, now the president’s AI and crypto advisor, to pass a moratorium on state AI regulation through Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump and Davis Sacks aren’t making policy — they’re running a con. And every day, they push the limits to see how far they can take it,” Gov. Gavin Newsom wrote in a statement on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As an earlier draft of the order circulated in Washington, critics warned it would neuter state laws designed to protect children and adults from the more predatory forms of commercial AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump’s executive order echoed talking points articulated by Silicon Valley leaders, including calls for a uniform federal regulatory framework, and concerns that state regulations could slow the pace of AI innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“POTUS stepping in creates space for builders to focus on innovation while Congress finishes the job,”\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/Collin_McCune/status/1999264399459066212?s=20\"> wrote\u003c/a> Collin McCune, who leads government affairs for the Menlo Park-based venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz, which is among the companies that have spent tens of millions of dollars to block or weaken Congressional action. “Now lawmakers have to act. Our standing in the global AI race—and the direct benefits Americans will see from it—depend on it,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/RapidResponse47/status/1999257391356125348\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The industry push to get the White House to supersede state legislation is “shortsighted,” said State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, who has worked to pass several of California’s state bills governing AI. “I think they’re going to pay the price in the long run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But just how big of an effect the order will have on California’s AI regulations is unclear. It includes exemptions for laws that cover child safety, data center infrastructure, state government use of AI and “other topics as shall be determined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is going to sow massive confusion in the industry,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is wondering about the future of several AI bills he co-authored, including one regulating AI companion chatbots, due to go into effect in January, which Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">signed\u003c/a> into law as part of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">broader package\u003c/a> of online safety and emerging-tech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is that affected by this? Because there’s a big part of it that deals with kids and chatbots, but there were parts of the bill that dealt with other things,” Becker said.[aside postID=forum_2010101912169 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2025/11/GettyImages-2203864303-2000x1333.jpg']The executive order is widely expected to prompt legal challenges because only Congress has the authority to override state laws. Speaking in Sacramento on Friday, California Attorney General Rob Bonta said it was too early to determine any legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where it’s headed, and what it intends to do, raises great concerns and flags. But we don’t sue until there’s action that we can take. Sometimes that’s upon the issuance of the executive order. Sometimes it’s later,” said Bonta, whose office has sued the Trump administration 49 times this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s measured stance contrasts with state lawmakers who see imminent danger in this latest move from the White House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump’s executive order is a dangerous attack on states’ constitutional authority to protect our residents from urgent AI harms,” wrote Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who has authored multiple AI bills regulating everything from algorithmic discrimination and transparency to protections for children and Hollywood creatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the tech industry lobbies for deregulation, women are being victimized by AI-powered nudification apps, artists and creators are having their livelihoods cannibalized without notice, deepfakes are being weaponized for harassment and fraud, and AI systems are perpetuating discrimination in housing, employment, and lending. These aren’t theoretical risks— they’re happening now and demand action,” Bauer-Kahan wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is not alone in its efforts to regulate AI at the state level. This year, all 50 states and territories introduced AI legislation and 38 states adopted about 100 laws, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/as-ai-tools-become-commonplace-so-do-concerns\">National Conference of State Legislatures\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This executive order is an outrageous betrayal of the states that, as Congress has stalled, have worked tirelessly to protect their residents from the very real risks of AI,” wrote James Steyer, head of Common Sense Media. The advocacy group has sponsored state bills in California and elsewhere. “Stripping states of their constitutional rights to protect their residents from unsafe AI — while holding critical broadband funding hostage, no less — erases the progress they are making and puts lives in danger,” Steyer wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "President Trump’s executive order directing federal agencies to challenge, preempt or otherwise neutralize state AI rules is widely seen as a win for Silicon Valley companies that lobbied against regulation, but blowback is expected imminently.\r\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>In the last decade, California has passed 42 laws to regulate artificial intelligence, more than any other state, according to \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2025-ai-index-report\">Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI\u003c/a>. So it comes as no surprise that state leaders reacted with ire to President Donald Trump’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/12/eliminating-state-law-obstruction-of-national-artificial-intelligence-policy/\">executive order\u003c/a> slapping down state efforts to regulate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The clash highlights the growing friction between California’s push for consumer protections and the tech industry’s efforts to neutralize regulation. The executive order follows \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/the-silicon-valley-campaign-to-win-trump-over-on-ai-regulation-214bd6bd\">previous failures\u003c/a> led by Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks, now the president’s AI and crypto advisor, to pass a moratorium on state AI regulation through Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump and Davis Sacks aren’t making policy — they’re running a con. And every day, they push the limits to see how far they can take it,” Gov. Gavin Newsom wrote in a statement on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As an earlier draft of the order circulated in Washington, critics warned it would neuter state laws designed to protect children and adults from the more predatory forms of commercial AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump’s executive order echoed talking points articulated by Silicon Valley leaders, including calls for a uniform federal regulatory framework, and concerns that state regulations could slow the pace of AI innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“POTUS stepping in creates space for builders to focus on innovation while Congress finishes the job,”\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/Collin_McCune/status/1999264399459066212?s=20\"> wrote\u003c/a> Collin McCune, who leads government affairs for the Menlo Park-based venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz, which is among the companies that have spent tens of millions of dollars to block or weaken Congressional action. “Now lawmakers have to act. Our standing in the global AI race—and the direct benefits Americans will see from it—depend on it,” he added.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>The industry push to get the White House to supersede state legislation is “shortsighted,” said State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, who has worked to pass several of California’s state bills governing AI. “I think they’re going to pay the price in the long run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But just how big of an effect the order will have on California’s AI regulations is unclear. It includes exemptions for laws that cover child safety, data center infrastructure, state government use of AI and “other topics as shall be determined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is going to sow massive confusion in the industry,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is wondering about the future of several AI bills he co-authored, including one regulating AI companion chatbots, due to go into effect in January, which Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">signed\u003c/a> into law as part of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">broader package\u003c/a> of online safety and emerging-tech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is that affected by this? Because there’s a big part of it that deals with kids and chatbots, but there were parts of the bill that dealt with other things,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The executive order is widely expected to prompt legal challenges because only Congress has the authority to override state laws. Speaking in Sacramento on Friday, California Attorney General Rob Bonta said it was too early to determine any legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where it’s headed, and what it intends to do, raises great concerns and flags. But we don’t sue until there’s action that we can take. Sometimes that’s upon the issuance of the executive order. Sometimes it’s later,” said Bonta, whose office has sued the Trump administration 49 times this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s measured stance contrasts with state lawmakers who see imminent danger in this latest move from the White House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump’s executive order is a dangerous attack on states’ constitutional authority to protect our residents from urgent AI harms,” wrote Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who has authored multiple AI bills regulating everything from algorithmic discrimination and transparency to protections for children and Hollywood creatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the tech industry lobbies for deregulation, women are being victimized by AI-powered nudification apps, artists and creators are having their livelihoods cannibalized without notice, deepfakes are being weaponized for harassment and fraud, and AI systems are perpetuating discrimination in housing, employment, and lending. These aren’t theoretical risks— they’re happening now and demand action,” Bauer-Kahan wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is not alone in its efforts to regulate AI at the state level. This year, all 50 states and territories introduced AI legislation and 38 states adopted about 100 laws, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/as-ai-tools-become-commonplace-so-do-concerns\">National Conference of State Legislatures\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This executive order is an outrageous betrayal of the states that, as Congress has stalled, have worked tirelessly to protect their residents from the very real risks of AI,” wrote James Steyer, head of Common Sense Media. The advocacy group has sponsored state bills in California and elsewhere. “Stripping states of their constitutional rights to protect their residents from unsafe AI — while holding critical broadband funding hostage, no less — erases the progress they are making and puts lives in danger,” Steyer wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>A member of a Bay Area group that says they are trying to prevent artificial intelligence from ending humanity was again arrested while protesting outside \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s San Francisco headquarters Thursday in apparent violation of a court order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guido Reichstadter was booked into San Francisco County Jail on Thursday evening, records show, for allegedly violating a judge’s order that barred him from the premises following his previous arrest with members of Stop AI. The group \u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/openais-sam-altman-served-subpoena-141003524.html\">made national headlines\u003c/a> last month when a member of their defense team served a subpoena to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman while he was onstage at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater with Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day is an opportunity to collectively reclaim our integrity and our sanity — to draw the line which says this far and no farther, to end the race to superintelligence — but these days are dwindling rapidly and we do not know which day will be the last before that opportunity is lost to us forever,” Reichstadter \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/wolflovesmelon/status/1996584982396211543\">posted on X\u003c/a> Wednesday while announcing he was planning to continue to protest OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter and Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner — along with co-defendant Wynd Kaufmyn — are awaiting trial for trespassing and other charges related to their continued protests outside OpenAI’s offices starting last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Altman have attempted to have his subpoena to testify at the criminal trial thrown out, but on Nov. 21, Judge Maria E. Evangelista ruled that that decision should be made by the judge who will be presiding over the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the trial was set to start Friday, it was pushed back to Jan. 29. Records show Reichstadter remained in San Francisco County Jail without bond as of Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066267\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066267\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner speaks into a bullhorn outside OpenAI’s headquarters in San Francisco on Feb. 22, 2025. A bench warrant has been issued for Kirchner, who did not appear for a court appearance for trespassing and other charges late last month. Kirchner recently separated from the group. \u003ccite>(Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also on Nov. 21, Evangelista issued a bench warrant for Kirchner’s arrest when he failed to show for a court hearing. That same day, OpenAI’s offices were locked down following threats authorities believed to have come from Kirchner, as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-office-lockdown-threat-san-francisco/?_sp=8f666012-7ff2-4d29-8dc9-047bbae3c137.1764640349753\">first reported by Wired\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 22, Stop AI \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/StopAI_Info/status/1992286218802073981\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that Kirchner assaulted a fellow member of the group. The attack and statements he made caused them to “fear that he might procure a weapon that he could use against employees of companies pursuing artificial superintelligence,” the post said, adding they still care about Kirchner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kirchner has since \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/No_AGI_/status/1991833980795326712\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that he is no longer associated with Stop AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three co-defendants readily admit they prevented business operations at OpenAI as charged. Rather than setting out to prove their innocence, they said they were taking their misdemeanor charges to court to further raise awareness of their cause. They, among others who express extreme caution around the current development of AI, say there could soon be a point of no return between human intelligence and the artificial intelligence it is rapidly developing and deploying.[aside postID=news_12058013 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GavinNewsomAISF2.jpg']“The actions that we took from October to February – nonviolently blocking the doors of OpenAI — have gotten attention around the world,” Reichstadter said. “They are the reason why Sam Altman was served a subpoena to appear to testify to the fact that he is consciously endangering the existence of humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to requests for comment. An attorney representing Altman, Gabriel Bronshteyn, declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Stop AI said the trial “will be the first time in human history where a jury of normal people are asked about the extinction threat that AI poses to humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI consists mostly of a small group of people who once lived together in a house in West Oakland. Reichstadter said he left his two teenage children in Miami to move to Oakland to join the fight against the development of potentially harmful AI, while Kirchner — a former electrical engineering tech and neuroscience student — moved from Seattle to found Stop AI in the Bay Area last year. Kaufmyn spent more than 40 years teaching computer sciences at City College of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI members often cite Nobel laureate and “godfather of AI” Geoffrey Hinton, who has said there’s a 20% chance that forms of AI currently being developed could “\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/17/ai-godfather-geoffrey-hinton-theres-a-chance-that-ai-could-displace-humans.html\">wipe us out\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of specific concern is artificial general intelligence, which OpenAI is trying to develop and defines as “AI systems that are generally smarter than humans.” \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/artificial-general-intelligence\">Other definitions\u003c/a> suggest it applies to the moment when AI learns to solve problems beyond the limitations it has today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While OpenAI says it is developing AGI so it “benefits all of humanity,” Stop AI wants the government to shut it down immediately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no way to prove that something smarter than us will stay safe forever and won’t eventually want something that will lead to our extinction, similar to how we’ve caused the extinction of many less intelligent species, and that’s the risk here,” Kirchner said in an interview at a protest outside OpenAI in February. “They don’t have proof that it will stay safe forever. They’re literally building Skynet in there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even while already facing charges from protests in 2024, Stop AI members continued to protest OpenAI, including in February when they chained the doors to the company’s headquarters on 3rd Street near Chase Center and sat in front of the doors until police removed some of them from the premises.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re gonna lock the doors now to this company,” Kirchner said through a bullhorn. “This company should not exist if it’s trying to build something that they admit could kill us all. So we’re gonna put our bodies on the line and try to prevent them from building that AGI system. And we invite everyone who thinks that what they’re doing is not OK to join us in this act of civil disobedience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The protest occurred on a Saturday, when OpenAI’s offices were closed.[aside postID=news_12063401 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/OpenAiLawsuitsGetty.jpg']“What’s going on in this business is not a legitimate business. It’s a threat to all of us. We have a right to protect the ones we love. We have a right to protect our own lives. We have the right of necessity to take nonviolent direct action to stop an imminent threat to our lives,” Reichstadter said before putting a steel chain through the handles of the front door of the OpenAI offices and locking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, he and others sat in front of the door as San Francisco police arrived and detained several people, including Reichstadter and Kaufmyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of the court hearing on Nov. 21, Kaufmyn and Reichstadter spoke at a press conference about their concerns around AI, its use in war and its potential dangers to future generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s so many reasons to be concerned about AI, but when I went to these presentations, I learned that the fate of humanity, the existence of every human life on Earth, is at stake, and the time frame is much closer than you would think,” Kaufmyn said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaufmyn said she’s not afraid to go to jail for protesting OpenAI if it benefits humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We fully believe there is a credible risk of human extinction within the next one to three years,” Kaufmyn said. “Imagine if you believed that, as I do, as my co-defendants do, what would you do? We — with heavy hearts and fear — decided that we need to do everything we can to stop this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter said he’s away from his children because he wants to guarantee them a future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are being pushed towards the edge of a cliff by the reckless actions of these companies, and no one knows how close that edge is,” he said. “It’s our responsibility — everyone who understands this threat — to take direct nonviolent action immediately to end the race to super intelligence, the suicide race, which these companies are leading humanity to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A member of a Bay Area group that says they are trying to prevent artificial intelligence from ending humanity was again arrested while protesting outside \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s San Francisco headquarters Thursday in apparent violation of a court order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guido Reichstadter was booked into San Francisco County Jail on Thursday evening, records show, for allegedly violating a judge’s order that barred him from the premises following his previous arrest with members of Stop AI. The group \u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/openais-sam-altman-served-subpoena-141003524.html\">made national headlines\u003c/a> last month when a member of their defense team served a subpoena to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman while he was onstage at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater with Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day is an opportunity to collectively reclaim our integrity and our sanity — to draw the line which says this far and no farther, to end the race to superintelligence — but these days are dwindling rapidly and we do not know which day will be the last before that opportunity is lost to us forever,” Reichstadter \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/wolflovesmelon/status/1996584982396211543\">posted on X\u003c/a> Wednesday while announcing he was planning to continue to protest OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter and Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner — along with co-defendant Wynd Kaufmyn — are awaiting trial for trespassing and other charges related to their continued protests outside OpenAI’s offices starting last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Altman have attempted to have his subpoena to testify at the criminal trial thrown out, but on Nov. 21, Judge Maria E. Evangelista ruled that that decision should be made by the judge who will be presiding over the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the trial was set to start Friday, it was pushed back to Jan. 29. Records show Reichstadter remained in San Francisco County Jail without bond as of Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066267\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066267\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner speaks into a bullhorn outside OpenAI’s headquarters in San Francisco on Feb. 22, 2025. A bench warrant has been issued for Kirchner, who did not appear for a court appearance for trespassing and other charges late last month. Kirchner recently separated from the group. \u003ccite>(Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also on Nov. 21, Evangelista issued a bench warrant for Kirchner’s arrest when he failed to show for a court hearing. That same day, OpenAI’s offices were locked down following threats authorities believed to have come from Kirchner, as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-office-lockdown-threat-san-francisco/?_sp=8f666012-7ff2-4d29-8dc9-047bbae3c137.1764640349753\">first reported by Wired\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 22, Stop AI \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/StopAI_Info/status/1992286218802073981\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that Kirchner assaulted a fellow member of the group. The attack and statements he made caused them to “fear that he might procure a weapon that he could use against employees of companies pursuing artificial superintelligence,” the post said, adding they still care about Kirchner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kirchner has since \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/No_AGI_/status/1991833980795326712\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that he is no longer associated with Stop AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three co-defendants readily admit they prevented business operations at OpenAI as charged. Rather than setting out to prove their innocence, they said they were taking their misdemeanor charges to court to further raise awareness of their cause. They, among others who express extreme caution around the current development of AI, say there could soon be a point of no return between human intelligence and the artificial intelligence it is rapidly developing and deploying.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“The actions that we took from October to February – nonviolently blocking the doors of OpenAI — have gotten attention around the world,” Reichstadter said. “They are the reason why Sam Altman was served a subpoena to appear to testify to the fact that he is consciously endangering the existence of humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to requests for comment. An attorney representing Altman, Gabriel Bronshteyn, declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Stop AI said the trial “will be the first time in human history where a jury of normal people are asked about the extinction threat that AI poses to humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI consists mostly of a small group of people who once lived together in a house in West Oakland. Reichstadter said he left his two teenage children in Miami to move to Oakland to join the fight against the development of potentially harmful AI, while Kirchner — a former electrical engineering tech and neuroscience student — moved from Seattle to found Stop AI in the Bay Area last year. Kaufmyn spent more than 40 years teaching computer sciences at City College of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI members often cite Nobel laureate and “godfather of AI” Geoffrey Hinton, who has said there’s a 20% chance that forms of AI currently being developed could “\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/17/ai-godfather-geoffrey-hinton-theres-a-chance-that-ai-could-displace-humans.html\">wipe us out\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of specific concern is artificial general intelligence, which OpenAI is trying to develop and defines as “AI systems that are generally smarter than humans.” \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/artificial-general-intelligence\">Other definitions\u003c/a> suggest it applies to the moment when AI learns to solve problems beyond the limitations it has today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While OpenAI says it is developing AGI so it “benefits all of humanity,” Stop AI wants the government to shut it down immediately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no way to prove that something smarter than us will stay safe forever and won’t eventually want something that will lead to our extinction, similar to how we’ve caused the extinction of many less intelligent species, and that’s the risk here,” Kirchner said in an interview at a protest outside OpenAI in February. “They don’t have proof that it will stay safe forever. They’re literally building Skynet in there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even while already facing charges from protests in 2024, Stop AI members continued to protest OpenAI, including in February when they chained the doors to the company’s headquarters on 3rd Street near Chase Center and sat in front of the doors until police removed some of them from the premises.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re gonna lock the doors now to this company,” Kirchner said through a bullhorn. “This company should not exist if it’s trying to build something that they admit could kill us all. So we’re gonna put our bodies on the line and try to prevent them from building that AGI system. And we invite everyone who thinks that what they’re doing is not OK to join us in this act of civil disobedience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The protest occurred on a Saturday, when OpenAI’s offices were closed.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“What’s going on in this business is not a legitimate business. It’s a threat to all of us. We have a right to protect the ones we love. We have a right to protect our own lives. We have the right of necessity to take nonviolent direct action to stop an imminent threat to our lives,” Reichstadter said before putting a steel chain through the handles of the front door of the OpenAI offices and locking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, he and others sat in front of the door as San Francisco police arrived and detained several people, including Reichstadter and Kaufmyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of the court hearing on Nov. 21, Kaufmyn and Reichstadter spoke at a press conference about their concerns around AI, its use in war and its potential dangers to future generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s so many reasons to be concerned about AI, but when I went to these presentations, I learned that the fate of humanity, the existence of every human life on Earth, is at stake, and the time frame is much closer than you would think,” Kaufmyn said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaufmyn said she’s not afraid to go to jail for protesting OpenAI if it benefits humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We fully believe there is a credible risk of human extinction within the next one to three years,” Kaufmyn said. “Imagine if you believed that, as I do, as my co-defendants do, what would you do? We — with heavy hearts and fear — decided that we need to do everything we can to stop this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter said he’s away from his children because he wants to guarantee them a future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are being pushed towards the edge of a cliff by the reckless actions of these companies, and no one knows how close that edge is,” he said. “It’s our responsibility — everyone who understands this threat — to take direct nonviolent action immediately to end the race to super intelligence, the suicide race, which these companies are leading humanity to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Since President Trump appointed him as the White House artificial intelligence and cryptocurrency czar, Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks has been in a position to drive policy in both emerging technologies. And according to recent reporting by the New York Times, Sacks has helped formulate policies that benefit him and his tech friends. Scott and Marisa are joined by New York Times reporter Ryan Mac, who was part of the team revealing Sacks’ conflicts of interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Check out \u003ca class=\"c-link c-link--underline\" href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/political-breakdown\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" data-stringify-link=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/political-breakdown\" data-sk=\"tooltip_parent\">Political Breakdown’s weekly newsletter\u003c/a>, delivered straight to your inbox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Monday, November 10, 2025…\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California legislators considered dozens of bills related to artificial intelligence this year. Those numbers have spiked as lawmakers grapple with the technology’s increasing presence and possible negative consequences. One point of concern: \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2025/11/06/with-the-rise-of-ai-californias-data-centers-require-more-water-energy-but-by-how-much/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the impact that generative AI will have on the state’s natural resource\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">s as it becomes an everyday tool for Californians. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Environmental activists are celebrating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063468/environmentalists-celebrate-retirement-of-platform-esther-a-socal-oil-rig\">the retirement of a Southern California oil rig\u003c/a>, with a celebration at San Francisco’s waterfront. The California State Lands Commission officially finalized the decommission last week.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"page-title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2025/11/06/with-the-rise-of-ai-californias-data-centers-require-more-water-energy-but-by-how-much/\">\u003cstrong>With The Rise Of AI, California’s Data Centers Require More Water, Energy. But By How Much?\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, Governor Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/09/29/governor-newsom-signs-sb-53-advancing-californias-world-leading-artificial-intelligence-industry/\">signed\u003c/a> into law\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\"> Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which would require large model developers like Anthropic and Open AI to be transparent about safety measures they put in place to prevent catastrophic events. The legislation would also create CalCompute, a public cloud infrastructure that expands access to AI resources for researchers, startups and public institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was one of several bills lawmakers introduced in Sacramento to regulate the AI industry. Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan authored a bill requiring data centers to report their energy usage. It failed to pass. But she said the work for the bill began with that question, and a desire for more transparency. “As I started to ask questions about what kind of data was going into our understanding around the energy needs of the growing data center industry, it seemed like the answer was there wasn’t great data,” Bauer-Kahan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember Diane Papan authored a similar bill looking to track water use at data centers. It required centers to provide estimates of their expected water use when applying for a business license, and an annual water use report thereafter. These centers generally require large amounts of water to cool down servers and other equipment. “I feel that the more information we have, it’ll help us integrate the growth of data centers into that broader task of climate resilient resource management, particularly as it relates to water,” Papan said. The bill passed through the legislature but was vetoed by Governor Newsom. In a statement, Newsom said he was “reluctant to impose rigid reporting requirements about operational details on this sector without understanding the full impact on businesses and the consumers of this technology.” The decision surprised Papan, who originally described the bill as one that was sure to pass given legislators’ desire to optimize California’s water planning. She said she disagrees with his thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data centers are places that contain the servers needed to provide essential services online, like web searches and video streaming. Large-scale data centers have been around for decades, first coming into existence about thirty years ago. But with the more recent rise of generative AI — the kind used for chatbots like ChatGPT — the water and energy these centers demand has gone up. Shaolei Ren, an associate professor of electrical and computer engineering at UC Riverside, said discussions about the environmental impacts associated with increasing AI use aren’t completely new. Artificial intelligence has been integrated in online platforms for years now — like with YouTube, for example, where AI is used to give tailored video recommendations. But Ren said it wasn’t until after 2020, when the general public became more aware of the integration of generative AI online, that these conversations really took hold. And with the technology’s growth comes a greater demand on resources – in California and the rest of the country. Citing a Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory report, Ren said data centers accounted for 3% of the nation’s energy use in 2020. That’s projected to increase by up to 12% by 2028. Ren said the way in which data centers consume these resources also plays a part in their impact on state resources. A data center may consume the same amount of water in a year as an office building, for example. But if most of that consumption happens during one hot summer month instead of evenly throughout the year, he said that could create a different kind of stress on water resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063468/environmentalists-celebrate-retirement-of-platform-esther-a-socal-oil-rig\">\u003cstrong>Environmentalists Celebrate ‘Retirement’ Of Platform Esther, A SoCal Oil Rig\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Environmental activists partied outside the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> Ferry Building on Friday to celebrate the decommission of a Southern California oil rig. The Center for Biological Diversity called the event a “retirement party” for Platform Esther, a soon-to-be decommissioned oil rig off the coast of Orange County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Activists donned party hats and performed their own rendition of Kool & the Gang’s \u003cem>Celebration\u003c/em>, renamed \u003cem>Decommission. \u003c/em>They danced with a giant inflatable whale, and tore into a blue-iced cake decorated with a paper cutout of an oil rig.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the Ferry Building, the California State Lands Commission officially finalized the decommission at a hearing. “This is actually a historic win. This platform is being retired about fifteen years ahead of the official end of its useful life,” said Ilonka Zlatar, an organizer with Oil and Gas Action Network. “We want to thank the State Lands Commission and the agencies that are standing up and helping us to transition into the clean energy economy that we need.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Platform Esther was first built in 1965 and is located 1.5 miles off the coast of Seal Beach. It was rebuilt in the ’80s after sustaining major damage from a winter storm in 1983. Production officially ceased in August 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>New leases for oil drilling off the coast haven’t been approved since 1984, and past Republican presidents have worked with Democrats in protecting California’s waters from drilling. But conservation efforts have faced new threats under the current and past Trump administrations, which \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/california/article/trump-offshore-drilling-21116334.php\">recently revealed a proposal\u003c/a> to dramatically ramp up oil drilling off California’s coast to increase the country’s energy independence.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Monday, November 10, 2025…\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California legislators considered dozens of bills related to artificial intelligence this year. Those numbers have spiked as lawmakers grapple with the technology’s increasing presence and possible negative consequences. One point of concern: \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2025/11/06/with-the-rise-of-ai-californias-data-centers-require-more-water-energy-but-by-how-much/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the impact that generative AI will have on the state’s natural resource\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">s as it becomes an everyday tool for Californians. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Environmental activists are celebrating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063468/environmentalists-celebrate-retirement-of-platform-esther-a-socal-oil-rig\">the retirement of a Southern California oil rig\u003c/a>, with a celebration at San Francisco’s waterfront. The California State Lands Commission officially finalized the decommission last week.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"page-title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2025/11/06/with-the-rise-of-ai-californias-data-centers-require-more-water-energy-but-by-how-much/\">\u003cstrong>With The Rise Of AI, California’s Data Centers Require More Water, Energy. But By How Much?\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, Governor Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/09/29/governor-newsom-signs-sb-53-advancing-californias-world-leading-artificial-intelligence-industry/\">signed\u003c/a> into law\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\"> Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which would require large model developers like Anthropic and Open AI to be transparent about safety measures they put in place to prevent catastrophic events. The legislation would also create CalCompute, a public cloud infrastructure that expands access to AI resources for researchers, startups and public institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was one of several bills lawmakers introduced in Sacramento to regulate the AI industry. Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan authored a bill requiring data centers to report their energy usage. It failed to pass. But she said the work for the bill began with that question, and a desire for more transparency. “As I started to ask questions about what kind of data was going into our understanding around the energy needs of the growing data center industry, it seemed like the answer was there wasn’t great data,” Bauer-Kahan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember Diane Papan authored a similar bill looking to track water use at data centers. It required centers to provide estimates of their expected water use when applying for a business license, and an annual water use report thereafter. These centers generally require large amounts of water to cool down servers and other equipment. “I feel that the more information we have, it’ll help us integrate the growth of data centers into that broader task of climate resilient resource management, particularly as it relates to water,” Papan said. The bill passed through the legislature but was vetoed by Governor Newsom. In a statement, Newsom said he was “reluctant to impose rigid reporting requirements about operational details on this sector without understanding the full impact on businesses and the consumers of this technology.” The decision surprised Papan, who originally described the bill as one that was sure to pass given legislators’ desire to optimize California’s water planning. She said she disagrees with his thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data centers are places that contain the servers needed to provide essential services online, like web searches and video streaming. Large-scale data centers have been around for decades, first coming into existence about thirty years ago. But with the more recent rise of generative AI — the kind used for chatbots like ChatGPT — the water and energy these centers demand has gone up. Shaolei Ren, an associate professor of electrical and computer engineering at UC Riverside, said discussions about the environmental impacts associated with increasing AI use aren’t completely new. Artificial intelligence has been integrated in online platforms for years now — like with YouTube, for example, where AI is used to give tailored video recommendations. But Ren said it wasn’t until after 2020, when the general public became more aware of the integration of generative AI online, that these conversations really took hold. And with the technology’s growth comes a greater demand on resources – in California and the rest of the country. Citing a Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory report, Ren said data centers accounted for 3% of the nation’s energy use in 2020. That’s projected to increase by up to 12% by 2028. Ren said the way in which data centers consume these resources also plays a part in their impact on state resources. A data center may consume the same amount of water in a year as an office building, for example. But if most of that consumption happens during one hot summer month instead of evenly throughout the year, he said that could create a different kind of stress on water resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063468/environmentalists-celebrate-retirement-of-platform-esther-a-socal-oil-rig\">\u003cstrong>Environmentalists Celebrate ‘Retirement’ Of Platform Esther, A SoCal Oil Rig\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Environmental activists partied outside the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> Ferry Building on Friday to celebrate the decommission of a Southern California oil rig. The Center for Biological Diversity called the event a “retirement party” for Platform Esther, a soon-to-be decommissioned oil rig off the coast of Orange County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Activists donned party hats and performed their own rendition of Kool & the Gang’s \u003cem>Celebration\u003c/em>, renamed \u003cem>Decommission. \u003c/em>They danced with a giant inflatable whale, and tore into a blue-iced cake decorated with a paper cutout of an oil rig.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the Ferry Building, the California State Lands Commission officially finalized the decommission at a hearing. “This is actually a historic win. This platform is being retired about fifteen years ahead of the official end of its useful life,” said Ilonka Zlatar, an organizer with Oil and Gas Action Network. “We want to thank the State Lands Commission and the agencies that are standing up and helping us to transition into the clean energy economy that we need.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Platform Esther was first built in 1965 and is located 1.5 miles off the coast of Seal Beach. It was rebuilt in the ’80s after sustaining major damage from a winter storm in 1983. Production officially ceased in August 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>New leases for oil drilling off the coast haven’t been approved since 1984, and past Republican presidents have worked with Democrats in protecting California’s waters from drilling. But conservation efforts have faced new threats under the current and past Trump administrations, which \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/california/article/trump-offshore-drilling-21116334.php\">recently revealed a proposal\u003c/a> to dramatically ramp up oil drilling off California’s coast to increase the country’s energy independence.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"radiolab": {
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"reveal": {
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"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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