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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"bio": "\"Water Mirror Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America\" - Chang is also the author of \"We Gon' Be Alright: Notes on Race and Resegregation,\" \"Who We Be: The Colorization of America\" and \"Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation\""
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, September 15 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What do frog skin, polyester hair and gene-edited pig kidneys have in common? They’re all part of humanity’s long quest to swap out ailing parts of our bodies, according to science writer Mary Roach. From prosthetic limbs to printable organs, Roach joins to talk about the history and complexities of human body replacement and where the science is today. Her new book is “Replaceable You: Adventures in Human Anatomy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/ihRMHfVqvjs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim. What do frog skin, polyester hair, and pig kidneys have in common? They’ve all been used to try to replace our remarkably complex body parts. Science writer Mary Roach, bestselling author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stiff\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fuzz\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, has been exploring humanity’s relentless quest to recreate anatomy — how far we’ve come, and the difficult questions that arise as the science evolves.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her new book, out tomorrow, is called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Replaceable You: Adventures in Human Anatomy.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mary Roach, welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much, Mina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your book is a great reminder that we’ve been on this medical journey of body-part replacement for a long time — hundreds of years, in the case of teeth. What did you learn about early dentures?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, sure. Early dentures… you did not want a pair. There were a number of technologies. One of the most gruesome — though not used for long — was in 1800s France. It was called “floating teeth.” They actually pierced the gums and suspended the uppers with wires through them. That didn’t last.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Around George Washington’s era, uppers and lowers would be attached with a coil — spring-loaded. The spring pushed the uppers into place, but Washington said it also pushed them out of his mouth. When I look at a dollar bill now, or his portraits, I think: you can see him trying to hold his dentures in. That stiff, grim look — now I understand it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And in the Victorian era, a lot of people lacked teeth. But I was struck by what you found in the mid-20th century — people choosing to pull out their healthy teeth. Why?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that amazed me. I came across the term “matrimonial teeth.” A bride’s present would be to have all her teeth pulled and be fitted with dentures. The idea was: she’d look beautiful for photos, and it would be cheaper to do them all at once. Which isn’t true — the bone resorbs, and you need refits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wondered how common it was. Then I found a Reddit thread — someone asked if this was really a bridal present in the ’40s, ’50s, ’60s. A thousand people answered: yes, my grandmother, my grandfather, my dad had it done. Terry Gross even interviewed Paul McCartney, who said his dad told him at 21, “Go get them all pulled.” It was a fad. It was all the rage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I felt so bad for those people. Dentures then were poly-gripped in place, but they slipped and slid. People were embarrassed, uncomfortable kissing or laughing. It wasn’t a good replacement. Today you can clip plates onto implants — they stay put, you can chew. But back then, it was rough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You mused whether they were succumbing to the lure of progress.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There’s this hopeful attitude that anything new and scientific must be better. And sometimes it is, but rarely as good as what you had.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take my dad. He lost all his molars but kept his front teeth. He never got dentures. He just “beavered” his food, as my brother put it. And he could eat anything. He was smart — he didn’t have to deal with slipping dentures or the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We actually already have a listener comment. One writes: “My grandmother in Greece had all her teeth removed in her forties, on advice that it would help with her headaches. It didn’t. My father said she was deeply sad about it until the end of her life. He said her original teeth were beautiful.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me invite more listeners to join the conversation. Have you had a body part replaced — hip joints, dental implants, maybe a new organ? What questions do you have about how far along we are with replacement science? And have you struggled with the decision to replace a body part — and why?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads @kqedforum. Or call 866-733-6786. Again, 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved the detail you added that the mid-20th century was also when \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Six Million Dollar Man\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> came out — this idea that he’d be stronger, better, faster with science-made parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I remember that show. He had the bionic eye, and when he queued it up, it beeped. I thought: that’s an annoying feature. You don’t need it to beep!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. We’ve learned that often the artificial part doesn’t function as well as the original. And I’m reminded, Mary, of a conversation you had with surgeon Jeremy Goverman, who told you he didn’t think we can really replace the human body, because it’s so miraculous in its complexity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’ve come a long way in replacing parts that are failing or missing. But matching what we started with? We’re not there yet. I even thought: let’s get simple. Tears. Artificial tears.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, they’re pretty good, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so. I even looked up a place called TearLab, imagining a giant eye statue and people crying at sad movies. Turns out it’s just a tabletop device for measuring dry eye. But the inventor knew a lot about tears, so we talked — two full free Zoom cycles because I’m too cheap to pay. [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I learned: it’s not the tears you cry, but the tear film that protects and lubricates the eye. It has a scaffold structure that prevents evaporation. Mucins collect debris and park it in the corner — that “sleep snot” in the morning. Lubrisin is an amazing lubricant. Bottom line: we haven’t figured out how to replace the tear film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not even that. You were like, “Salt water with a little oil — how hard could that be?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. But the products out there only work for an hour or two. They actually wash away some of the good stuff. Nothing is simple.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And yet, while it’s impossible to replicate the body’s complexity, it’s worth trying, because replacements can be life-changing. Could you remind us of some problems we’ve done a pretty good job solving?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Cataract surgery, for example. A friend of mine just had both eyes done at once. It’s become so reliable, safe, and effective you do it in an afternoon and see the world differently that same day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But back in the day? Thousands of years ago, they did it with no anesthesia. Just a sharp stick in the eye — pierce the lens and push it down. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim. What do frog skin, polyester hair, and pig kidneys have in common? They’ve all been used to try to replace our remarkably complex body parts. Science writer Mary Roach, bestselling author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stiff\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fuzz\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, has been exploring humanity’s relentless quest to recreate anatomy — how far we’ve come, and the difficult questions that arise as the science evolves.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her new book, out tomorrow, is called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Replaceable You: Adventures in Human Anatomy.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mary Roach, welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much, Mina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your book is a great reminder that we’ve been on this medical journey of body-part replacement for a long time — hundreds of years, in the case of teeth. What did you learn about early dentures?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, sure. Early dentures… you did not want a pair. There were a number of technologies. One of the most gruesome — though not used for long — was in 1800s France. It was called “floating teeth.” They actually pierced the gums and suspended the uppers with wires through them. That didn’t last.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Around George Washington’s era, uppers and lowers would be attached with a coil — spring-loaded. The spring pushed the uppers into place, but Washington said it also pushed them out of his mouth. When I look at a dollar bill now, or his portraits, I think: you can see him trying to hold his dentures in. That stiff, grim look — now I understand it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And in the Victorian era, a lot of people lacked teeth. But I was struck by what you found in the mid-20th century — people choosing to pull out their healthy teeth. Why?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that amazed me. I came across the term “matrimonial teeth.” A bride’s present would be to have all her teeth pulled and be fitted with dentures. The idea was: she’d look beautiful for photos, and it would be cheaper to do them all at once. Which isn’t true — the bone resorbs, and you need refits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wondered how common it was. Then I found a Reddit thread — someone asked if this was really a bridal present in the ’40s, ’50s, ’60s. A thousand people answered: yes, my grandmother, my grandfather, my dad had it done. Terry Gross even interviewed Paul McCartney, who said his dad told him at 21, “Go get them all pulled.” It was a fad. It was all the rage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I felt so bad for those people. Dentures then were poly-gripped in place, but they slipped and slid. People were embarrassed, uncomfortable kissing or laughing. It wasn’t a good replacement. Today you can clip plates onto implants — they stay put, you can chew. But back then, it was rough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You mused whether they were succumbing to the lure of progress.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There’s this hopeful attitude that anything new and scientific must be better. And sometimes it is, but rarely as good as what you had.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take my dad. He lost all his molars but kept his front teeth. He never got dentures. He just “beavered” his food, as my brother put it. And he could eat anything. He was smart — he didn’t have to deal with slipping dentures or the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We actually already have a listener comment. One writes: “My grandmother in Greece had all her teeth removed in her forties, on advice that it would help with her headaches. It didn’t. My father said she was deeply sad about it until the end of her life. He said her original teeth were beautiful.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me invite more listeners to join the conversation. Have you had a body part replaced — hip joints, dental implants, maybe a new organ? What questions do you have about how far along we are with replacement science? And have you struggled with the decision to replace a body part — and why?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads @kqedforum. Or call 866-733-6786. Again, 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved the detail you added that the mid-20th century was also when \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Six Million Dollar Man\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> came out — this idea that he’d be stronger, better, faster with science-made parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I remember that show. He had the bionic eye, and when he queued it up, it beeped. I thought: that’s an annoying feature. You don’t need it to beep!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. We’ve learned that often the artificial part doesn’t function as well as the original. And I’m reminded, Mary, of a conversation you had with surgeon Jeremy Goverman, who told you he didn’t think we can really replace the human body, because it’s so miraculous in its complexity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’ve come a long way in replacing parts that are failing or missing. But matching what we started with? We’re not there yet. I even thought: let’s get simple. Tears. Artificial tears.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, they’re pretty good, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so. I even looked up a place called TearLab, imagining a giant eye statue and people crying at sad movies. Turns out it’s just a tabletop device for measuring dry eye. But the inventor knew a lot about tears, so we talked — two full free Zoom cycles because I’m too cheap to pay. [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I learned: it’s not the tears you cry, but the tear film that protects and lubricates the eye. It has a scaffold structure that prevents evaporation. Mucins collect debris and park it in the corner — that “sleep snot” in the morning. Lubrisin is an amazing lubricant. Bottom line: we haven’t figured out how to replace the tear film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not even that. You were like, “Salt water with a little oil — how hard could that be?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. But the products out there only work for an hour or two. They actually wash away some of the good stuff. Nothing is simple.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And yet, while it’s impossible to replicate the body’s complexity, it’s worth trying, because replacements can be life-changing. Could you remind us of some problems we’ve done a pretty good job solving?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Roach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Cataract surgery, for example. A friend of mine just had both eyes done at once. It’s become so reliable, safe, and effective you do it in an afternoon and see the world differently that same day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But back in the day? Thousands of years ago, they did it with no anesthesia. Just a sharp stick in the eye — pierce the lens and push it down. A 12th-century medical manual said: hold it down for four or five \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our Fathers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. That was the time count. The patient could then see light and shapes, though infections and other problems were common.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about the quest to recreate and replace our anatomy with Mary Roach. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly eight years ago, journalist Shoshana Walter followed a lead on a drug and alcohol rehab program that put patients to work at a chicken plant. What she found was one of many programs that boasted treatment and recovery, but actually profited off the unpaid labor of people struggling with addiction. In her new book, “Rehab: An American Scandal”, Walter continues to interrogate America’s drug treatment system by following four people navigating an industry that not only kept patients stuck in a cycle of addiction and relapse, but that actually stymied their recovery. 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And even worse, a small number of people are profiting off exploiting the vulnerable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1375\" data-end=\"1574\">Here to share more about her book, \u003cem data-start=\"1410\" data-end=\"1438\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em> — and the reporting that informed it — we’re joined by Shoshana Walter, an investigative reporter with The Marshall Project. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1636\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1596\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1658\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, the narrative I’ve had in my head about drug treatment in this country is that because the opioid epidemic hit a broader swath of American society than crack before it, our country decided to take a gentler, more treatment-based approach to drug addiction. 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A lot of the issues I lay out in the book have to do with people still being punished for their addictions — being sent to treatment programs that assign them to unpaid labor jobs working for some of the largest companies in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3146\" data-end=\"3564\">We have medication-assisted treatment like Suboxone that’s still hard for patients to access — many doctors don’t want to prescribe it. And then we have insurance-funded, 30-day inpatient programs that people come out of and then relapse. We now know that someone who completes a 30-day treatment program is actually more likely to overdose and die in the year after treatment than someone who doesn’t finish at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3706\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3586\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Which is — I mean — the exact opposite of what one might expect. Treatment is supposed to make you better, not worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3728\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Right. Exactly. And even the best-intentioned treatment programs are often frustrated with this limitation imposed by insurance companies. Some treatment programs have taken advantage of it and made it part of their business model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4190\">There was one treatment company owner I interviewed who admitted they were overmedicating patients to the point of impairment, contributing to overdose deaths in their own program. Even he was frustrated by the 30-day limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4192\" data-end=\"4393\">He called it a “cycler.” His company had staff call people who left their 30-day program to find out if they’d relapsed — and if they had, especially if they had good insurance, they’d reenroll them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4434\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4415\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Bring them back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4456\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. It was just a cycle, in and out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4766\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4522\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re going to go deeper into all these issues — Suboxone, different types of rehab centers, and why some of them don’t seem to work, or work in ways that seem cruel and unusual to me. But let’s talk about how you got into writing this book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4768\" data-end=\"4985\">Eight years ago, you started looking into some of these treatment centers, and you found people working — as part of their drug treatment, for some reason — in a chicken processing facility? Tell us more about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5217\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5007\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was a reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"5034\" data-end=\"5042\">Reveal\u003c/em> from the Center for Investigative Reporting at the time, and I stumbled across a program that a lot of drug courts and diversion courts in Oklahoma and Arkansas were using.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5219\" data-end=\"5629\">These were people who were supposed to be receiving addiction treatment instead of incarceration. It sounded great. But when I looked into it, I discovered the rehab program was founded by former poultry industry executives. Participants were sent to work unpaid at chicken processing plants, making products for KFC, Popeyes, Walmart, PetSmart, Rachael Ray Nutrish — products almost every American consumes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5700\">That unpaid labor was predominantly their sole form of “treatment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5971\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5722\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And in your book, you trace some of this to a company called Cenikor, which one of the main characters in the book goes through. Where did they come from, and where did this idea — that putting people to work with minimal counseling — might work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"6262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"5993\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Cenikor’s model came from a program called Synanon, founded in 1958 by a former oil salesman who struggled with alcoholism. He had tried AA and hated it because he felt people relapsed and lied in meetings. He didn’t want to let himself or others get away with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6284\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Tougher love was needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6685\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6333\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. This became the precursor to rehab in the United States. It started as a community where people called each other out — yelling, confronting, holding each other accountable. Over time, it grew into recovery communities across the U.S., including in the Bay Area, where participants lived and worked, funding the program through unpaid jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6687\" data-end=\"6813\">They also used what was later called “attack therapy” — or “the game” — circles where people verbally confronted each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6815\" data-end=\"7153\">Synanon gained popularity in the ’60s and ’70s, and its model was adopted by programs like the Cenikor Foundation. Eventually, Synanon became cult-like — the founder enriched himself, ordered vasectomies, mandated shaved heads, and forced marriages. It went off the rails, but it showed how a work-based model could become exploitative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7175\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> On the face of it, it seems a little crazy. But for some people, did it work? Did they become the biggest advocates — saying, “Look at me, it worked for me, it could work for you”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7513\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7380\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think so. There’s something compelling about stories of people entering a program and completely transforming their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7515\" data-end=\"7839\">One former Synanon participant told my colleague at \u003cem data-start=\"7567\" data-end=\"7575\">Reveal\u003c/em>: “We brainwashed people — because their brains are dirty.” But many stayed in these programs for years, left, and relapsed. That’s a very common theme in U.S. treatment models — people do well while they’re in the program, but once they leave, it stops working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7968\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7861\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything to the idea that once people are deeply addicted to drugs, there’s not much we can do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"8150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"7990\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> No — I think there’s so much we can do to help people recover. Many people recover over time, even without treatment. People age, grow, and naturally change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8152\" data-end=\"8435\">The problem with our drug policies is that the longer someone is in addiction, the more marginalized they become, and the harder it is to recover — because they’re lacking the things needed for long-term recovery: housing, jobs, financial resources, social support, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8437\" data-end=\"8540\">Without these, sustaining recovery is much harder. And there are other barriers I detail in the book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8603\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8562\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You call it “recovery capital,” right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8871\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8625\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yes. Researchers told me how important recovery capital is — the resources that help people envision and achieve change: community, housing, transportation, food, financial security. Without these, relapse is almost inevitable after treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"9129\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"8893\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about America’s drug treatment system and the rehab and addiction recovery industry. We’re joined by Shoshana Walter, author of \u003cem data-start=\"9036\" data-end=\"9064\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em>. She’s now an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9131\" data-end=\"9369\">We want to hear from you — have you had experiences with the rehab industry as a patient or a provider? What was your experience? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. You can also email us at \u003ca class=\"cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9318\" data-end=\"9332\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. We’re on social media @kqedforum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9371\" data-end=\"9440\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly eight years ago, journalist Shoshana Walter followed a lead on a drug and alcohol rehab program that put patients to work at a chicken plant. What she found was one of many programs that boasted treatment and recovery, but actually profited off the unpaid labor of people struggling with addiction. In her new book, “Rehab: An American Scandal”, Walter continues to interrogate America’s drug treatment system by following four people navigating an industry that not only kept patients stuck in a cycle of addiction and relapse, but that actually stymied their recovery. We’ll talk through the dark side of the rehab industry, what this book reveals about the ways patients are exploited for profit, and who actually has a chance at recovery in America.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/ZV8VaYVH268'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/ZV8VaYVH268'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"357\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"314\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"326\" data-end=\"333\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"359\" data-end=\"777\">In the mornings, walking from BART across the Mission to the station, I often wonder about the lives of the people I pass doing drugs on Capp Street and in the alleyways of the neighborhood. Sure, they’ve made bad choices, and they impose costs on everybody else in the city. But how can it be that our region, our state, our country cannot help people — even after one million Americans have died of drug overdoses?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"779\" data-end=\"1019\">The failure is so profound that I think a lot of us have developed some ethical loopholes about people suffering from addiction. They’re lost to us. No treatment works. When someone goes down that road, it’s too late — etcetera, etcetera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1021\" data-end=\"1373\">But one thing that Shoshana Walter’s book irrefutably shows is that when it comes to addiction treatment — when it comes to helping people who want help — we’re just failing people horribly, up and down the socioeconomic ladder, but especially those at the bottom. And even worse, a small number of people are profiting off exploiting the vulnerable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1375\" data-end=\"1574\">Here to share more about her book, \u003cem data-start=\"1410\" data-end=\"1438\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em> — and the reporting that informed it — we’re joined by Shoshana Walter, an investigative reporter with The Marshall Project. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1636\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1596\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1658\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, the narrative I’ve had in my head about drug treatment in this country is that because the opioid epidemic hit a broader swath of American society than crack before it, our country decided to take a gentler, more treatment-based approach to drug addiction. But your book shows that we didn’t really do that. What went wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2254\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2011\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, exactly like you said — during the crack cocaine epidemic, our country’s approach to drug addiction was to criminalize and punish, and that led to mass incarceration of drug users, disproportionately Black and Brown Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2256\" data-end=\"2545\">Then the opioid epidemic came around. It was more of a pain pill epidemic, mostly affecting white communities. And so there was this major transformation — a well-intended transformation — and a widespread acknowledgment that addiction is a disease, worthy of medical care and treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2547\" data-end=\"2845\">Over the past twenty-five years, we’ve seen an enormous expansion of our treatment system — first, with the launch of Suboxone, the gold-standard addiction treatment medication, in 2002. And then with the Affordable Care Act, millions more Americans suddenly had coverage for addiction treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2847\" data-end=\"3144\">But the system is really not working the way it was intended. A lot of the issues I lay out in the book have to do with people still being punished for their addictions — being sent to treatment programs that assign them to unpaid labor jobs working for some of the largest companies in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3146\" data-end=\"3564\">We have medication-assisted treatment like Suboxone that’s still hard for patients to access — many doctors don’t want to prescribe it. And then we have insurance-funded, 30-day inpatient programs that people come out of and then relapse. We now know that someone who completes a 30-day treatment program is actually more likely to overdose and die in the year after treatment than someone who doesn’t finish at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3706\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3586\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Which is — I mean — the exact opposite of what one might expect. Treatment is supposed to make you better, not worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3728\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Right. Exactly. And even the best-intentioned treatment programs are often frustrated with this limitation imposed by insurance companies. Some treatment programs have taken advantage of it and made it part of their business model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4190\">There was one treatment company owner I interviewed who admitted they were overmedicating patients to the point of impairment, contributing to overdose deaths in their own program. Even he was frustrated by the 30-day limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4192\" data-end=\"4393\">He called it a “cycler.” His company had staff call people who left their 30-day program to find out if they’d relapsed — and if they had, especially if they had good insurance, they’d reenroll them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4434\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4415\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Bring them back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4456\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. It was just a cycle, in and out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4766\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4522\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re going to go deeper into all these issues — Suboxone, different types of rehab centers, and why some of them don’t seem to work, or work in ways that seem cruel and unusual to me. But let’s talk about how you got into writing this book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4768\" data-end=\"4985\">Eight years ago, you started looking into some of these treatment centers, and you found people working — as part of their drug treatment, for some reason — in a chicken processing facility? Tell us more about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5217\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5007\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was a reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"5034\" data-end=\"5042\">Reveal\u003c/em> from the Center for Investigative Reporting at the time, and I stumbled across a program that a lot of drug courts and diversion courts in Oklahoma and Arkansas were using.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5219\" data-end=\"5629\">These were people who were supposed to be receiving addiction treatment instead of incarceration. It sounded great. But when I looked into it, I discovered the rehab program was founded by former poultry industry executives. Participants were sent to work unpaid at chicken processing plants, making products for KFC, Popeyes, Walmart, PetSmart, Rachael Ray Nutrish — products almost every American consumes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5700\">That unpaid labor was predominantly their sole form of “treatment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5971\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5722\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And in your book, you trace some of this to a company called Cenikor, which one of the main characters in the book goes through. Where did they come from, and where did this idea — that putting people to work with minimal counseling — might work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"6262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"5993\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Cenikor’s model came from a program called Synanon, founded in 1958 by a former oil salesman who struggled with alcoholism. He had tried AA and hated it because he felt people relapsed and lied in meetings. He didn’t want to let himself or others get away with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6284\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Tougher love was needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6685\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6333\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. This became the precursor to rehab in the United States. It started as a community where people called each other out — yelling, confronting, holding each other accountable. Over time, it grew into recovery communities across the U.S., including in the Bay Area, where participants lived and worked, funding the program through unpaid jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6687\" data-end=\"6813\">They also used what was later called “attack therapy” — or “the game” — circles where people verbally confronted each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6815\" data-end=\"7153\">Synanon gained popularity in the ’60s and ’70s, and its model was adopted by programs like the Cenikor Foundation. Eventually, Synanon became cult-like — the founder enriched himself, ordered vasectomies, mandated shaved heads, and forced marriages. It went off the rails, but it showed how a work-based model could become exploitative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7175\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> On the face of it, it seems a little crazy. But for some people, did it work? Did they become the biggest advocates — saying, “Look at me, it worked for me, it could work for you”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7513\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7380\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think so. There’s something compelling about stories of people entering a program and completely transforming their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7515\" data-end=\"7839\">One former Synanon participant told my colleague at \u003cem data-start=\"7567\" data-end=\"7575\">Reveal\u003c/em>: “We brainwashed people — because their brains are dirty.” But many stayed in these programs for years, left, and relapsed. That’s a very common theme in U.S. treatment models — people do well while they’re in the program, but once they leave, it stops working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7968\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7861\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything to the idea that once people are deeply addicted to drugs, there’s not much we can do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"8150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"7990\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> No — I think there’s so much we can do to help people recover. Many people recover over time, even without treatment. People age, grow, and naturally change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8152\" data-end=\"8435\">The problem with our drug policies is that the longer someone is in addiction, the more marginalized they become, and the harder it is to recover — because they’re lacking the things needed for long-term recovery: housing, jobs, financial resources, social support, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8437\" data-end=\"8540\">Without these, sustaining recovery is much harder. And there are other barriers I detail in the book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8603\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8562\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You call it “recovery capital,” right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8871\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8625\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yes. Researchers told me how important recovery capital is — the resources that help people envision and achieve change: community, housing, transportation, food, financial security. Without these, relapse is almost inevitable after treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"9129\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"8893\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about America’s drug treatment system and the rehab and addiction recovery industry. We’re joined by Shoshana Walter, author of \u003cem data-start=\"9036\" data-end=\"9064\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em>. She’s now an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9131\" data-end=\"9369\">We want to hear from you — have you had experiences with the rehab industry as a patient or a provider? What was your experience? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. You can also email us at \u003ca class=\"cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9318\" data-end=\"9332\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. We’re on social media @kqedforum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9371\" data-end=\"9440\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
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"tagline": "Real stories with killer beats",
"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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},
"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
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