Snap Judgment Presents: Spooked from KQED and PRX KQED is helping to make Spooked, the acclaimed podcast from Snap Judgment, and its catalog of heart-pounding episodes available free to listeners across all major podcast platforms
Spooked features true-life supernatural stories, told first-hand by people who can barely believe it happened themselves. Spooked challenges skeptics of the supernatural, daring listeners to confront the unknown. These stories demand listeners question their own map of reality. Be afraid.
Spooked is made in partnership with KQED and PRX, and is hosted by Glynn Washington.
Before creating the Snap Judgment radio show, Glynn worked as an educator, diplomat, community activist, actor, political strategist, fist-shaker, mountain-hollerer, and foot stomper.
Glynn composed music for the Kunst Stoff dance performances in San Francisco, rocked live spoken word poetry in Detroit, joined a band in Indonesia, wrote several screenplays, painted a daring series of self portraits, released a blues album, and thinks his stories are best served with cocktails.
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"content": "\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this special Halloween edition of Close All Tabs, we’re diving into creepypastas: horror stories that spread online until they become urban legends on their own. What happened to the girl who fell into a mirror in 2001? Did Ted the Caver ever come back to the surface? Was the Momo challenge real? And finally, we venture into eBay’s haunted doll marketplace … where we may have ended up with a spirit wreaking havoc on the production of this episode. It’s a ghoulish good time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@hallietut\">Hallie Tut\u003c/a>, visual effects artist, and digital content creator\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@chillingtalesfordarknights\">Craig Groshek\u003c/a>, horror author and founder of \u003cem>Chilling Tales for Dark Nights\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://tedthecaverfan.com\">Ted Hegemann\u003c/a>, author of “Ted the Caver”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Rena Lee, social media manager\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophia-bruno-846358286/\">Sophia Bruno\u003c/a>, educational nonprofit coordinator\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@paranormalteej\">Paranormal Teej\u003c/a>, haunted doll collector & paranormal investigator\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlaXgi-Jpdo\">How She Creates VFX Shots That Break Your Brain\u003c/a> — Hallie Tut, \u003cem>Youtube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://tedthecaverfan.com\">Ted the Caver\u003c/a> — Ted Hegemann\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Momo_(Creepypasta)#:~:text=%E2%80%9C-,Momo,-%2C%20Momo%2C%20Momo%20is\">Momo (Creepypasta)\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Villains Wiki\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://medium.com/@LanceUlanoff/momo-challenge-is-everything-thats-wrong-with-the-internet-4d1a5679c1ed\">Momo Challenge Is Everything That’s Wrong with the Internet\u003c/a> — Lance Ulanoff, \u003cem>Medium\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://yokai.com/ubume/?srsltid=AU7gw4UWwYuhjk8jv7LUe8ip4Sjmbw0bTmlbqoJ6kyNNEwWAjC7IZCV5\">Ubume\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Yokai.com\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/how-momo-global-social-media-hoax-about-paranormal-threat-kids-n977961\">How ‘Momo’, a global social media hoax about a paranormal threat to kids, morphed into a U.S. viral phenomenon\u003c/a> — Ben Collins and Shoshana Wodinsky, \u003cem>NBC News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.inverse.com/input/features/dybbuk-box-dibbuk-kevin-mannis-zak-bagans-haunted-hoax-revealed\">Finally, the truth behind the ‘haunted’ Dybbuk Box can be revealed\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Inverse\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/work/careers/a34322508/the-witches-of-ebay-industry-selling-haunted-item/\">The witches of eBay: Inside the industry selling haunted items online\u003c/a> — Daniella Scott, \u003cem>Cosmopolitan\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/62125/1/a24-youngest-ever-director-kane-parsons-the-backrooms-creepypasta-into-cinema\">The Backrooms: How Kane Parsons turned creepypasta into cinema\u003c/a> — Jack Mills, \u003cem>Dazed\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2026/05/what-is-backrooms-movie-original-explained-4chan-creepypasta-horror-internet.html\">The Eerie Backstory Behind Backrooms\u003c/a> — Nadira Goffe, \u003cem>Slate\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/revisiting-creepypasta-the-social-horror-craze-that-launched-slenderman/\">Revisiting Creepypasta, the Social Horror Craze That Launched Slenderman\u003c/a> — Zac Thompson, \u003cem>VICE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Happy spooky season tabbies. Is there a creepypasta you can’t stop thinking about? Or any internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity keeping you up at night? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate! Go to \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">KQED.org/podcasts/closealltabs\u003c/a> to submit your question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Just a note, this episode contains mentions of suicide and horror themes so listen with care — or skip this one and come back next week. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Let me tell you a story about one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I was in middle school, hanging out in a family friend’s basement with a bunch of other kids, when my friend’s older brother asked us if we wanted to see something. We crowded around his laptop where he pulled up a YouTube video, titled “Entry #1.” It was just a few seconds of shaky footage, shot through a window from inside a house, of a lanky, suited figure lurking near the door. No sound…which made it feel more unsettling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My friend’s brother told us that some guy online found all of these videos in his friend’s camera and started posting them to YouTube. He hit play on the next one. This had sound — some guy talking while he drove down a dark street. Not much is visible in this video…except the blurry silhouette of that same lanky figure, looming in the distance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Marble Hornets:\u003c/strong> I saw this really tall guy stand in the middle of the street, just completely still. For whatever reason, this really set off Rocky, and he got really scared. He wouldn’t move and he kept on pulling on his leash to go back home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back then, everything on the internet seemed real. My friends and I took all of it at face value. So we believed the YouTube comments that said they’d seen this figure too. My friend’s brother left, but the rest of us were totally hooked. So we hit play on another video. This was more shaky footage, again shot through a window from inside a house. The same figure was lurking, closer this time. The camera finally focused on an unnaturally pale, bald head. It had no face at all, just smooth white skin and hollow contours where eyes and a mouth and a nose should be. And then it turned to face the viewer, as if it was honing in on us. Then, my friend’s brother, from the top of the stairs, called out, “Who wants to meet Slenderman?” And shut off the basement lights. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The legend of Slenderman started in 2009, when someone posted black and white photos of children on a playground, seemingly oblivious to the spindly creature looming over them. The captions alluded to a string of child abductions from the 1980s. It was a submission for a Photoshop contest of paranormal happenings, which later inspired the YouTube series, Marble Hornets. That was the supposedly found footage that we watched in my friend’s basement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I totally fell for it. For a good year after, I was terrified to look through windows at night in case Slenderman was peering back in. That was my first experience with a creepypasta. The word “creepypasta” is a play on “copypasta” — which is a portmanteau of “copy-paste.” They’re blocks of text that become memes because they’re copied and reposted so often. Creepypastas are online urban legends, Horror stories that start on forums and comment sections that spread across the internet and take on lives of their own. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome to Cursed All Tabs. This is our very special Halloween episode, where, instead of one deep dive, we have a bunch of spooky stories for you. These are tales of the paranormal kept alive on the internet. A girl stuck in a portal, caving gone wrong, an entity that might get you through the screen, and the eBay listings for haunted dolls. So, gather around our digital campfire and if you’re easily scared, don’t listen in the dark. Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is Cursed All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung — tech journalist and your chronically online nightmare — here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s open our first tab and get into our first spooky story: “The girl in the mirror.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Picture this: It’s the middle of the night. You can’t sleep. You’re doom-scrolling. It’s way past your bedtime and you’ve been awake for a little too long. So, in the darkness of your room, shadows start to take on the shape of strange figures. You catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror, barely visible in the moonlight, and for a second, it seems like the room and the reflection is deeper. Like it goes on forever. And then…mid-scroll, you come across this video. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> There’s something really strange going on here, and if something ends up happening to me, I just hope that this video can maybe explain it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a video of a teenager recording herself on an old-school, hand-held camcorder. The caption says it’s found footage dating back to January 2001. The camera sweeps across her bedroom — a matching set of yellow furniture, frilly curtains, pink walls, very 90s — and settles on an antique mirror propped up on a chair. It faces another full-length mirror mounted to the wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Okay, so I have these two mirrors in my room. As you can see, they’re pretty normal looking mirrors, but I was cleaning and I had them kind of set up like this, and I noticed something really weird. Just watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The girl places the camcorder on the bed and films herself putting her hand on one of the mirrors, but she passes straight through the glass into another world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> See, when you look through the mirror into the other one, it becomes like a window. And there’s this huge warehouse, grocery store, or something down there. But wait, it gets even crazier. Watch this. Three, two, one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She fully jumps through the mirror and is transported into what looks like a fully stocked supermarket. But the aisles go on forever and there’s nobody else in sight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Woah. What the hell? What is this place? Hello? How far does it go? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She begins running, and then… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Oh shit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The camcorder zaps back to her room mid-air before bouncing onto her frilly white bed. It faces another mirror and in the reflection, the room looks empty. The girl is nowhere to be seen. You’re thoroughly creeped out so you start scouring the comments. Legend has it…she’s still missing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from ItsNickHoliday:\u003c/strong> A video a girl recorded in her bedroom in 2001, right before she went missing, has resurfaced and now is going viral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Generalist Authority:\u003c/strong> The camera was later found on her bed. She has not been located. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from brookesobasic:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if people know this or not, but facing two mirrors together is something you just shouldn’t do. And it’s said to open portals or bring in really bad energies or spirits — sometimes good — but usually bad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what happened to this girl who fell through a mirror over 20 years ago and was never heard from again? What is it about that abandoned, endless supermarket that feels both so familiar and so unsettling? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it — it just really is something where you don’t normally stay very long in a place like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Hallie Tutte, a VFX artist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Liminal spaces are kind of these transitional places where usually it would be somewhere that’s filled of people going from point A to point B when a place that usually is filled with people is now completely empty — that gives it that eerie feeling because you never usually are used to seeing it completely abandoned like that. So if you got trapped there, it just brings out this strange feeling in you, I think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Halle is the real girl in the video. And don’t worry, she did not get stuck in the portal despite what some internet conspiracy theorists might think. She’s always been fascinated by liminal horror — stories that take place in vacant, in-between spaces, like the internet lore that inspired the movie Backrooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I grew up in a town that didn’t have a lot of people in it, and there’d be like these old shopping malls where no one would be around and all the stores are gone. And I always just loved the feeling of being in those spaces, like empty food courts. Me and my friends would just like to kind of hang out there. And I guess when I got into 3D modeling, it was a really fun way to get to build that feeling again by creating those spaces. And it’s something that’s really easy to accomplish in 3D and make it feel very real, very quickly because it’s just a lot of walls and lights and rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that video wasn’t filmed in 2001, but actually made in 2023. Hallie was inspired by found footage movies like The Blair Witch Project. She wanted to create something that felt like it was from the early 2000s, but using modern equipment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I shot it completely by myself in my room and it was actually shot on a Sony camera on a tripod and then any of the handheld stuff is all fake. The mirror that she’s shooting into is fake and to create that infinite Walmart effect, I went to my local Walmart late at night when it feels like a liminal space and I was able to kind of scan all of the shelves and create these 3D models that I then brought into, like a software like Blender, and created this infinite world with it. And yeah, it’s shot in my real bedroom. I live with my grandparents, so this used to be my aunt’s room. And everything in it feels very of the time period that I was trying to make that video set in, so it worked out really well that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The video got a lot of views when she first posted it, but didn’t really go viral until a year later, when other influencers reposted it, speculating about what really happened to the girl in the mirror. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Even one of my art school teachers had sent me a link on Facebook to like a conspiracy channel where he’d seen it and asking if it was me. And that video had maybe 3 million views and thousands of comments, people’s discourse about whether it was real. Having remembered seeing this video from when they were younger, like in the early 2000s, people had made up like memories of it. Like kind of that Mandela effect was happening where people had — had this memory of knowing this story of this girl who went missing years prior to when I posted the video. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So it was — it was just going all over the place online and I kind of started to go down a rabbit hole of Reddit posts about it and different names they were making up for the girl in the video. Like in one spot her name was Violet and the video was titled “Violet’s Playtime” or something strange like that. And then people were kind of using that name to discuss it in different forums. So just gets it away from you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year, Hallie posted a video explaining that she was the creator of the video and that none of it was real. Even then, the conspiracies continued to spread. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> When I made the video talking about how it was fake and I explained how I had made it and how viral it had went around the internet, but trying to claim that, in fact, it was me in my room by myself and I’m here and I am alive — a lot of people in those comments were saying, “The government made her do this,” or “She’s AI and this is a cover up — like this is the CIA cover up for this girl who’s still missing. She’s just — this is just a plant. This girl trying to pretend she’s the girl so they can keep hiding this conspiracy from us.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s wild how drastically the internet has changed since 2023. AI videos back then were nowhere near as convincing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it would be a lot harder now with AI and even just the VFX work that was put into that. I don’t know if it would feel worth it anymore because of the way that people would just write it off. That video was definitely a labor of love for the technical challenges that I had to go through to make it look realistic and I think people now just won’t appreciate the craft that goes into something like that because they’ll just write it all off as AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, I don’t know if I’d ever do one quite in the same way. I think if I had a really good story that I wanted to tell, and it was more based on just a really horror story, I might try again. But in a way that was more of a fun technical challenge for me to make it convincing. And in today’s day and age. That’s no longer really a worthy challenge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s so depressing. Have we killed creepypastas with AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think creepypastes will live on, especially the more fictional stories that can’t be real things but that people really wish were real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hallie herself is still making creepy horror content, pushing herself with new technical challenges and VFX tools. But the story she put out into the world three years ago continues to spread and morph beyond what she ever created. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> It is essentially a creepypasta now, and the creepypasta might be well known by people, but it’s never going to really come back to me, which I kind of appreciate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If, during the witching hour, you place two mirrors facing each other, you might open a ghostly passage. Legend has it that, if you look long enough, the infinite reflections will dissolve into all sorts of in-between places — sprawling underground train stations, sterile hospital waiting rooms, school hallways lined with pristine lockers. They will almost always be eerily empty, as if time comes to a standstill there. And sometimes, you might catch a glimpse of a cavernous, eternal supermarket — and the pink-haired teenager doomed to wander its empty aisles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That story was brought to us by producer Maya Cueva. Unsettled yet? Well, we’re just getting started. The next internet scary story we have for you is actually the one that started it all. It’s known as the very first creepypasta, dating back to 2001. This tale comes from our very own senior editor, Chris Egusa. You might wanna turn on the lights for this one. Okay, let’s open a new tab. Who is Ted the Caver? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> In early 2001, a series of posts started appearing on an obscure Angelfire website, a site-building platform from the early internet. The page was bare bones. Basic HTML, a black background, and at the top, a salmon-colored title: “Welcome to the Page of Ted.” The posts were journal entries. The author? Anonymous, except for that first name: Ted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Over the course of a few months, Ted posted a detailed account of a series of caving trips he took with a friend he identified only as “B,” to explore a previously unentered passage in a spot they called “Mystery Cave.” According to the first entry, the pair had found a hole in the rock wall deep inside the cave. It was only four to five inches across, but they knew it had to lead somewhere because of a steady stream of air that blew through it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The first journal entry included a link to a grainy photo of the hole. It was uneven in shape, and the rock it went through looked several inches thick. There was a glove tucked inside the hole for scale. The entry went on. Peeking through the hole with a mini maglite, they could see a tight tunnel that opened up after a few feet. They could feel the air blowing past, and they could hear something else: a low rumbling that came and went. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ted and B brushed aside the strange details. They were too excited at the prospect of finding their way into a completely unexplored passage. So they made a plan: come back with hand tools and a cordless drill, break up the solid rock, and widen the hole until it was big enough to squeeze through. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ted named the passage Floyd’s Tomb, as a nod to Floyd Collins — an early 20th century cave explorer who got trapped and died as he attempted to enlarge a small tunnel in a cave system in Kentucky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Every few weeks through early 2001, a new post would appear on the website. They detailed the slow, grueling work of drilling and chiseling through rock until the batteries on their lights and tools ran out. Since the cave was a good distance from where they lived, Ted and B would stay at a nearby motel, recharge their batteries and bodies, and continue working the next day before heading home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Occasionally, Ted would mention some odd detail. Something unsettling. In one post, he described the wind as getting louder, a howl at that point. The rumbling had become more frequent, and he noted that it seemed to be emanating from deeper in the cave. Then he’d move on, refocusing on the task at hand. Each post linked more photos, documenting the progression of the hole. And as the entries went on, the details got stranger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On a trip in February, they brought B’s Jack Russell Terrier into the cave. Typically excitable and enthusiastic, she became edgy and began to whimper as she approached the hole. Her hair stood on end and she refused to get any closer. Later that same trip, B heard a scratching, grinding sound coming from inside the hole. When he got Ted’s attention to listen, it stopped. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On another trip in early March, Ted was kneeling at the wall, drilling — ear plugs in and safety glasses on. Over the noise of the drill, he heard a high-pitched sound. He pulled his earplug out just in time to hear an ear-piercing scream coming from inside the hole, echoing through the darkness. In his journal, he described it as a cross between a man screaming in fear and a cougar screaming in pain. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The next day, the two couldn’t stop thinking about the sound. But they rationalized it as some kind of animal and decided to continue on, focused on getting to the other side. They’d come too far to give up. In the next entry, Ted explained that they’d widened the hole enough to squeeze through. It was so tight that Ted had to turn his head to the side and wedge himself in with his arms pinned at his sides. As he went further, he could feel the rock pressing into his back. The only way forward was to exhale all of his breath and push with his feet. So that’s what he did. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Exhale. Scoot an inch or two. Breathe in shallowly. Exhale again. Scoot further. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The photo linked in that entry showed Ted wedged into the crevice wearing a black bandana, head cocked to the right. The flash lit up jagged rocks littering the floor beneath him. Then the passage began to open up. Ted was able to crawl forward, emerging for the first time into the untouched cavern. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The entries kept coming. And, without spoiling the rest of the story, things escalated from there. Ted found strange hieroglyphic markings on the cave wall, an unnaturally round rock that seemed to be moving on its own. A smell he described as damp, rotting, rancid, putrid, death, drifting up from deeper in the cave. Then, in the deepest section of the tunnel, he encountered something. Something that seemed to follow him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The last entry on the site was from Ted, writing the morning of his final trip into the cave. By then, he was badly shaken and suffering from lucid nightmares. He was determined to figure out what was going on, once and for all. And then, the entries stopped. Even years later, nothing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the Angelfire site stayed up, preserving Ted’s story. The collection of entries — nine in total, clocking in at over 25,000 words — is now known as Ted the Caver, and many consider it to be the very first creepypasta. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> At the time when I first read it, there was nothing like it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig Groshek is a horror author who runs Chilling Tales for Dark Nights, a company and YouTube channel devoted to creepypasta, along with several podcasts. He first came across Ted the Caver in high school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> You’re just surfing the internet and all of a sudden you come across this poor guy, you know, getting trapped with unspeakable horrors in the underground. And the story very much leaves you feeling that you don’t know what happened to him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> At the center of a lot of the online discussion was one question — was it real? The story had all these supernatural elements, but it also felt believable. The gear, the technical descriptions of caving, the photos. It read like a real caving journal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> Just when you thought there’s a chance that this was baloney, he threw up a photo. Critical thinking aside, that inclusion of photos drew you right back in, and it made everything that came after it even scarier. And of course we were experiencing this in real time. If you were there when it happened, this wasn’t a story you picked up years later. This was a man this was actually happening to, and you couldn’t do anything about it. It was like watching someone sleepwalk into traffic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But you couldn’t ask Ted. For years, no one could confirm who he was, or whether his name was even Ted. Authorship of the story was disputed, with several people taking credit. Eventually, the real Ted emerged and began posting intermittently on some online forums. In 2015, Craig decided to track him down in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> All I had to go on was the original post and some forums on the internet where he had appeared. And the way I found him was via reverse image search. He used the same picture, I believe he was standing on train tracks, maybe with his dog, and it was the same pictures of him on every forum that he used. I tracked him down to a disc golf course. I had the guy at the country club there, because they have a golf course and a disc golf and I had them hand Ted my information on a cocktail napkin. And the next thing you know, Ted’s calling me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig commissioned Ted to write an original horror story for an anthology he was putting together. It was only the second horror story Ted had ever written. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name is Ted Hegemann. I am the author of the story that is now known as “Ted the Caver.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> His story about the terrors lurking in Mystery Cave was his first. Ted is now 62 and lives in Utah. These days, he spends his free time playing disc golf. It’s the latest in a string of obsessions. 25 years ago, he was obsessed with caving. And, as it turns out, a lot of the story is based on real experiences. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> So, my buddy, Brad and I — who is B in the story — we went out to this cave that’s right on the border of Utah and Nevada. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Ted and Brad really did open up an entrance to a new passage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It took us numerous trips, I think eight trips before I was able to get past the opening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The squeeze through Floyd’s tomb? Ted says it happened just how he wrote it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was literally exhaling my lungs and scooting with my feet, with my arms down to my side to keep my shoulders down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Technically, he did the squeeze twice. By the second time, they had opened the passage up a little wider, and he was able to fit through with slightly more ease. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was keeping a journal the entire time — a caving journal — as well as updating friends and family, you know, as to the progress. It was kind of a neat thing. And when we were done, I thought rather than telling everyone about it, I’ll just upload my journal on a — find a website — and put it up. And then I had the idea that it’d be kind of fun to embellish a little bit. And so that’s where the story came from. So much of it is just directly out of my caving journal. And then the creepy parts were invented, of course. But the idea didn’t come until after we had gone into the cave. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> A lot of the eerie details were rooted in his actual experience, too. Like the air blowing through the hole. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We knew about the hole because we would stop there, because the wind blew out and you generally worked up a little bit of a sweat getting to that point in the cave. So we would stop and just let the cool air cool us off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And the low rumbling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We figured it was I-80 — just trucks or whatever — because it wasn’t constant. It was just every once in a while. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And they really brought a Jack Russell terrier into the cave. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Demon dog, oh my goodness, it nipped at me so many times. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But the part about it whimpering and refusing to go near the hole, that was embellished. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It was having a good time running around exploring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> I asked Ted at what point the story became complete fiction. I’m thinking of — there’s the terrifying scream that you both hear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> The scream. The grinding noise that we would hear inside, the smell when I went in there, and the round rock. There was no round rock, sadly. Oh, and the little hieroglyph thing that was in there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> It took Ted almost a year to write the whole thing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> And at one point, I gave up on it. I thought, “Oh, this is dumb. Who’s going to want to read this?” But then I sucked it up and thought, “Yeah, at least finish it. And then who cares? You know, if nothing happens.” But yeah, little did I know. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> He posted it, one update at a time, through the spring of 2001, and he knew the story had attracted a decent readership. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I did have a hidden counter on there and got up into the tens of thousands of views. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The story simmered underground, making its way through different communities, but never going viral the way things might today. And then, a few years after he posted the story, someone sent him a link to a caving forum where it was being discussed. After that, he started digging around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> That was one of the cooler weekends of my life. I remember our internet was really slow. So I went to the library and I just kept searching and found all these forums where they’re talking about it. And it just blew me away. How many people liked it. So many people said it scared them to death in very colorful ways. It was just so fun to know that that people were reading it and enjoying it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> For Ted, who’s not even a big horror fan, the fact that this story he posted 25 years ago keeps coming up is a lasting source of enjoyment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I just discovered this like last year. I started Googling and I found all of these YouTube channels where they talk about the story. They’ll read it and then give their thoughts about it. And I mean, one of them had three million views. It just kind of blew me away. I think it’s just a blast. I love it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> So is Ted the Caver the first creepypasta? As with most things on the internet, it’s hard to pinpoint. The term creepypasta itself came into use years later. And some people point to the genre’s similarities to chain emails from the 90s, which pre-date Ted’s story. But Craig Groshek says Ted the Caver certainly has a claim to the title. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> If you’re looking at the Mount Rushmore of creepypasta, of internet-based horror, Ted the Caver’s is definitely up there. In terms of storytelling — the immersion, the fact that you felt like this was a real person that may have actually disappeared, and for years that remained uncontested — you have to put it up there just for that. He was really a pioneer without realizing that’s what he was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> More widely known creepypastas like Slenderman and more recently Backrooms, which was turned into a Hollywood movie this year, all have their roots in Ted the Caver. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> I think you can trace it to a lot of these things, but Backrooms being the most recent example. I don’t know that you can say these things wouldn’t have existed without Ted, but you can’t say that they would either. This entire genre started with a couple of people copying and pasting creepy stuff to try to get a rise out of somebody. And Ted absolutely leaned into that at the end. He knew there were people that thought he was dead and he didn’t even care. Thanks, Ted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> When Ted Hegemann posted his story on Angelfire, he could have never anticipated where it would go. It was adapted into a movie in 2008 called Living Dark: The Story of Ted the Caver. And as for Mystery Cave? It’s been officially mapped out now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It’s called “Interstate Cave” and thankfully they did call that passage “Floyd’s Tomb” so it’s official on the map now. And DeWalt’s Dig, it was the opening, because we were using DeWalt tools. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig says that for all the ways storytelling has changed over the years with digital media, in some ways, it hasn’t changed at all. Instead of sitting around a physical campfire, we now sit around a digital one — on message boards, comment sections, and Discord chat rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> It started with one man telling his story around what is essentially a digital campfire. And as time has gone on, more and more people have gathered around that fire. And 20 plus years later people are still telling that story and that is a testament to how believable it was, how well written it was how immersive it was and how well it tapped into a primal fear that a lot of people have — whether it’s of the unknown, of the dark or not knowing what you can’t see. And that’s why I think it has stood the test of time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That was senior editor Chris Egusa. One thing about me: You will never catch me caving. Ever. The idea of squeezing into an underground passage where you can get stuck or lost or run out of air sounds hellish enough. And there might be an entity down there? No, thank you! Between whatever’s in the caves and Slenderman lurking in the woods, it seems safer to just stay inside. But the monsters from creepypastas can get you even if you never log off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">After the break, we have a story about the creature haunting your screens. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, when we’re back, what do you know about Momo? Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome back to the Close All Tabs special spooky story time. This next one is about an entity that I hate looking at, even as a full-grown adult. This creepypasta retelling comes from our very own intern, Lauren Yoon. Let’s open another new tab. The legend of Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> Picture a gaunt, paper-skinned woman with a protruding neck and bulging eyes. Her jet-black hair stringy to match a thousand-eye stare that could kill. She looks uncanny. The most important feature of the infamous viral image: she holds a smile that spans cheek-to-cheek in the shape of a “V.” Yep, that’s right. My internet urban legend is Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Fandom:\u003c/strong> Do you want a surprise? Look in their eyes. I won’t lie, you’re going to die. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> It’s 2019. Musical.ly had just become TikTok. Everyone was doing the woah, and Avengers: Endgame was in theaters. And Momo was threatening harm to all who came across her. I remember Momo being passed around between my friend group, joking she would haunt them while they slept or something. Here’s my friend, Sophia, talking about Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sophia Bruno:\u003c/strong> I was very much afraid of it in the sense that I just thought it was a weird-looking picture that my friend introduced me to because I think she was like, “Oh Momo’s gonna get you” and I was like, “What is Momo?” And then she showed me. And my friends and I would mostly joke about it like, “Momo is gonna get you whatever” but in terms of the real-life stories I mean I believed them and I believed — I feel like there was a mysterious lore around it like it would just kind of you and like attach itself to you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> In reality, I also hated Momo. If I was joking about it with friends, it was mostly because laughter is the best defense mechanism against fear. What scared me the most were stories of Momo contacting you over the phone and telling you to do horrible things to yourself or others. It became known in mainstream media as “the Momo challenge.” The idea was that kids would challenge each other to make contact with Momo, sparking her wrath. She was even rumored to have reached kids’ videos on YouTube, where her face would pop up out of nowhere during an episode of Peppa Pig. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The rumors caused a media frenzy, and Momo became a sensationalized, quote, danger to children. The Post, The Today Show, and a bunch of other news outlets around the world warned concerned parents about the internet legend. They encouraged parents to put restrictions on social media and YouTube for their kids — something parents should probably be doing anyway — without evidence that the Momo challenge was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Surprise! It wasn’t. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There has been no evidence to show that Momo or anyone posing as the character actually contacted people, let alone children. YouTube denied any claims of Momo popping up in the middle of their videos, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So where did Momo even come from? Well, she’s a picture of a sculpture called “Mother Bird,” created by Japanese artist Keisuke Aiso. If we zoom out of their original picture, you can clearly see the figure, propped up on a stand in an art gallery. The face we all know and…hate? Attached to a human chest with two huge bird legs. Keisuke based her off of this Japanese folklore called “Ubume,” a version of which translates to “child-snatching bird.” Makes sense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The image first spread on a Chinese social dating app called Momo, and that’s how the Momo we know today was born. So how did she spread so fast? And so far? I mean, a police station in Northern Ireland issued a statement and Kim Kardashian posted on Instagram, both figures warning parents about this dangerous, quote, challenge. My friend Rena has a theory that this all happened because the internet was a little newer to us at the time. AI wasn’t generating images like they are today, so we took a lot of things at face value. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Rena Lee:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t have this backpedaling of, “Is this AI, is this real?” A lot of information and media that we were fed at the time, it was easier to believe, “Oh my God, this looks so realistic. This has to be a real picture.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> I personally think it’s a combination of this naivete, plus the misinformation being spread by major national news outlets. The public sphere unfortunately feeds off of fear — talk about the horror of it all, right? — and Momo was the scapegoat for millennials and boomers concerned about what new dangers the internet proposed for their children. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Keisuke destroyed the original sculpture not too long after it was created because it started rotting. It was made of materials that weren’t meant to last long. The only part of the sculpture remaining is its eyeball. Here is an excerpt of Keisuke’s interview with The Sun from 2019. He’s speaking through a translator. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from The Sun:\u003c/strong> I got rid of Momo, so it is no longer here with me. I believe it no longer exists in this world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> He was pretty horrified by the way his art became so misunderstood and taken out of context. I wonder if people today would be as scared as they were five, six years ago when we weren’t burdened with the constant doubt that comes with the images we see online today. The landscape of internet paranoia has changed, and so I wonder if the Momo challenge could be recreated in this day and age. I even miss the mystery she brought to my life, something that has slowly dissipated as I trust the internet less and less. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Momo may have been a hoax, but her impact was real. The image of her bulging eyes and wide smile is still burned into the back of my skull. And when I’m trying to fall asleep at night, and I open my eyes to the dark corner of my room, she’s the figure I imagine standing there…waiting for my eyes to close again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to you by our intern, Lauren Yoon. We’ll have more on Momo in our further reading, but before you hit that link, consider this your jumpscare warning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Anyway, I have one more story for you. It starts with an eBay listing for an antique wine cabinet with strict warnings to never open it, lest you unleash misfortune upon anyone who comes in contact with the box. But the real horror story here is disappointingly mundane. Let’s open one last tab. The haunted doll scam market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One of the most infamous haunted objects was actually sold on eBay. In 2003, Kevin Mannis listed an antique wine cabinet with an unusually detailed description. He had picked it up at an estate sale, and the woman who sold it to him said it belonged to her grandmother, a Holocaust survivor. Her grandmother had been insistent that her family never, ever open the box. She said it contained a spirit called a dybbuk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Did Kevin heed the warning? No. He brought it back to his workshop and opened it right up — ignoring the creepy locks of hair and carved Hebrew prayers inside. A series of tragedies followed. His mother had a stroke when she opened the box. His siblings complained of terrifying nightmares. Someone who knocked the box off a shelf died by suicide the same day. Kevin himself started having visions of a demonic old woman with sunken eyes. He recounted the story in his eBay listing, which ended with, “Help me.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The box was bought and resold several times over the next decade. Owners complained of hair falling out in clumps, bleeding from the eyes, waking up choking, and dreams of the creepy old woman. The box finally found a permanent home in a museum for haunted objects, sealed behind layers of protective glass. It even inspired the 2012 movie, The Possession. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then, five years ago, Kevin admitted that it was all fake. He made up everything in the original listing. There are no dybbuk boxes in Jewish folklore. The malicious spirits attached to people, not objects. The people who bought the box after Kevin sold it maintained that their hauntings really happened. But as far as Kevin was concerned, the whole eBay thing was a creative writing exercise that spiraled out of control. But today, haunted objects are a hot commodity. And one object, in particular, has become incredibly popular in the secondhand haunted market: dolls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> EBay, Etsy, they’re all over the place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Taylor, a TikTok creator and YouTuber, also known as Paranormal Teej. She’s a paranormal investigator and haunted doll caretaker. She called me from a room packed with dolls. Can you describe the room you’re in? Like what’s around you? What are the stories behind all that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yes. So in this room, we have about 120 haunted dolls. They come from all around the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor keeps them lined up on shelves. Some are porcelain collector’s dolls, dressed in frilly skirts. Others are soft rag dolls, clearly pre-loved by some young child. And while we talked, I swear I could feel them gazing back at me through the screen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They keep me on my toes. I work with a lot of, like, trickster spirits. I am very interested in working with, like, spirits with kind of wacky, wild personalities. They are a riot. We adore them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She introduced me to a few of them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So first one I’m going to point out is Jeremiah. If I don’t point him out to you, he will mess with our recordings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jeremiah is this big soft bear, wearing a striped t-shirt. His plush legs dangle off the shelf, like a little kid’s would. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> He is a six and a half year old little boy. The half is very important to him. Six is not acceptable. He moves, he moves things, um, especially lollipops. That’s, like, kind of his gig. He loves green things. Um, everything he wants has to be green. So he has moved like lollie pops around our house, threw them down the stairs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed out another doll. She has a cherubic face and stark black pigtails, and she’s besties with Jeremiah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So Hoshiko is five. She’s from Japan. She’ll cause you to have, like, visions like in mirrors and things and she’ll like pop up. So I get the Samara from The Ring in the mirror trick every once in a while. Then she thinks it’s so funny because she likes, like, the reaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And lastly, Taylor points out Ciel. He’s in a black, pointed hat. Like a little witch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And he is very wise, very gifted. He has given me dreams about things happening a year before they happen and then they come true. And he’s just kind of, he’s my guy. So yeah, those are my, my buddies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> You may be skeptical of all this — but there were a couple of inexplicable incidents in the calls I had with Taylor. At some points, the entire video platform that we used flickered — not someone’s webcam, but the whole site. After the interview, our producer, Maya, said she heard low growling coming from Taylor’s side. When Taylor talked about her doll’s antics, I thought I heard faint giggling in the background. And there were chunks of our interview that our transcription software could not figure out. Instead, it spat out a jumble of German, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Brazilian, Portuguese, French, Danish, Korean, and a splash of Telugu. Was that Jeremiah messing with us? Although Maya and I were a little freaked out, Taylor seemed unfazed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Everybody asks, like, “How are you safe living in a house with 120 haunted dolls? How are, how were you safe?” And the honest answer is like, they, they respect me because I respect them. I’m just nice to them. Like that’s really all it takes is just like basic kindness. Um, and I think that makes the paranormal a lot less scary when you realize that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ghosts and the paranormal have been part of Taylor’s life for as long as she could remember. Her mother is a professional psychic. Her aunt is a paranormal investigator. Her grandmother would pull out the Ouija board whenever Taylor stayed over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> My whole dad’s side of the family, even the ones who don’t want to or want anything to do with the paranormal, see ghosts for whatever reason. And so I just, I kind of grew up in this environment where, like, ghosts aren’t scary. They’re just like a thing, you know, like it’s just a fact of life, kind of attitude about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor and her husband bonded over the paranormal and fell in love with doll collecting together. They consider themselves spirit keepers — almost like afterlife caretakers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Some spirits legitimately did own their vessel when they were alive. They were attached to it in life and they’re still attached to, you know, like we have spirits whose vessel was like their comfort item as a kid kind of thing. I do have cases where it was like a spirit who was haunting a location and like the location was getting torn down and they were scared because they didn’t know what would happen to them if the location disappeared. They didn’t know if they would disappear, too. So they kind of found a different way out of necessity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Actually confirming a haunting can take months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> A lot of spirits will be very quiet and you will have no activity and then six months in at random, they’ll just kind of like pop off and because they’re comfortable with you now. The paranormal field is not a science, right? We don’t have a textbook that says, “This is how you investigate an object. This is how you investigate a location.” And so for us, what our method looks like — because that evidence component is really important to me — I do not feel comfortable saying something is haunted unless I know 100%. If I am 99% sure, I won’t even say, “Yes.” I have to be 100% sure. The other thing about paranormal activity is it’s not predictable. There is zero predictability. You can’t say turn the lights off and they turn the lights off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to investigate whether a doll is haunted, Taylor first considers what she calls “subjective observations.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Anything from, I saw that doll move to — I saw a ghost in my house to — I heard footsteps or I got a dream from — about this doll, but for me subjective reports are not enough for me to confirm something is haunted because the brain does crazy things. When people are scared and they are around something that they’re suspecting, the brain can do really crazy things to, you know, trick us. You have things like pareidolia, which is, we see faces in things. And so, people can take that as paranormal, but it’s really just your brain playing tricks on you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So she tries to collect data: fluctuations in air temperature and air pressure, whether motion sensors are activated, and audio and video recordings. She looks for anomalies that she can document and compare against a control. And lastly, Taylor tries to make contact with whatever might be haunting the doll. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So everybody communicates with spirit slightly differently. For me, the way that works best for me personally is a spirit box. What a spirit box is, is essentially, it is an intentionally broken radio, okay? So basically it rapidly sweeps through radio stations and they can manipulate the radio signals to be able to communicate with you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She often posts spirit box sessions with her dolls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So that’s something you’re still trying to understand about 2026? The men awful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did you hear, “The men awful?” Or did you hear a jumble of static? Skeptics say the audio fragments that are picked up by spirit boxes are random and that it’s confirmation bias and pareidolia that leads investigators to find meaning in the sounds. Taylor, however, says it’s more reliable than other methods. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> There are other tools like Pendulum and Ouija Board, for example, and those things your hands are involved. And for me, like my hands being involved in something, it doesn’t feel like quite as valid of evidence to me. So I really like Spirit Box because my hands are not involved in that. I can’t control what comes out of that box. I have no involvement in that so I like the personal removal from it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the investigation is a bust. Taylor told me about this time her friends thought she bought a haunted doll. So she brought it over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Pulled out a spirit box and I’m like, “Hey, like if anybody’s there, like can we talk?” And I got nothing for a long time. You know, I’m like, “Maybe they’re shy.” So I keep asking questions. Nothing is happening. I’m like, “Okay.” Not even like a little bit — not even like a hesitation — nothing. And I’m looking at my friend and I am like, “We’re not getting anything.” And then the spirit box starts talking. And I am thinking, “Oh, maybe they finally decided to show up.” No. Um, it’s Omi, who’s down here in the blue, she’s hilarious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed to a doll behind her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And she comes on and she’s like, “There’s nothing there.” And I’m like, “It’s not haunted, is it?” And she’s, like, “No.” And I’m like, “Thanks!” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Here’s the tea: the paranormal makes for really good content. This was a very niche hobby until a few years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So, in my opinion, I think the COVID pandemic just shot haunted doll sales up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is around the same time “witchtok” took off — the corner of TikTok dedicated to modern witchcraft. Videos of spell jar recipes, algorithmically recommended tarot readings, and ghost hunting all overlapped with the same audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And I think that is largely due to the fact that people were home and they were bored out of their mind and they were looking for something to do. And I think a lot of people were also doom scrolling at that time. Everybody was sitting on TikTok and YouTube all day long watching videos and so people had haunted dolls or making more videos about their haunted dolls than usual because they’re at home all day with them and it was just a perfect storm for like a lot more people who like were not involved in the paranormal or anything to just kind of like decide to try something different. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The more sensational the paranormal content, the better it did online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And one of the party tricks that I see a lot is with EMF meters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These are handheld devices that detect and measure electromagnetic activity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They are not ghost metal detectors. Everybody just sees the EMF spike and they assume, “Oh, that’s a ghost,” but they don’t think about all of the other things that set off an EMF meter. Well, we’re in 2026. We have smartwatches that are setting off EMF meters, Wi-Fi, your cell phone — those things are set off by any form of electricity and all of our houses and all these locations are full of electricity, right? But a lot of people will, you know, share proof that their doll is haunted by essentially putting their phone right up to a doll that has an EMF meter on its lap and the EMF is going off and it’s hitting red and everybody’s forgetting that the phone that they’re filming that video on is what is triggering it. So when I see an account where the whole page is just EMF up to a cell phone and nothing else, I’m suspicious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> By becoming so trendy, Taylor says the paranormal community has become less about making contact with the other side and more about making content out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I think it’s social media and it’s not just haunted dolls, it’s the whole overall paranormal community. You know, the people that are into the paranormal will chase it to the end of the earth. I mean, some of these locations will charge you, you know, hundreds, thousands of dollars to go investigate there for the night. It’s extremely lucrative. Investigators are seeking evidence. They are interested, obviously. But there’s also, I think, the social media pressure. Content creators, especially, it’s like they, you know, want to — to get content out and they want to keep going so they have to go to more haunted locations and you know, have to have more experiences, because they’re sharing the experiences with the public and people are expecting to see it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And as this genre of content took off, the market for haunted objects suddenly became very lucrative. EBay, Etsy, and Facebook Marketplace technically do allow for sales of haunted or occult objects, as long as the listing includes a disclaimer that it’s for entertainment purposes only. But that disclaimer also means that you can get away with anything. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> People want to have a paranormal experience. People are interested in that now. It didn’t used to be. Everybody didn’t wanna have a paranormal experience before, but now it’s like, people are chasing an experience. So people have learned — there are people who will pay anything to get to have this happen. I think that people have caught on to that. It’s trendy right now, it’s in right now and everybody’s looking for a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so, people have learned like, okay, before I could go to like, buy one of those empty storage lockers and I could sell everything for $10 a piece, whatever, but if the haunted doll people pay 200 bucks for that, that’s what I’m going to charge. Um, and the fact of the matter is, when people buy it, people will sell it because there’s a demand for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like the dybbuk box that duped countless people 20 years ago, many of these listings have elaborate descriptions recounting tales of supernatural, otherworldly encounters. And dolls, especially, can go for way more than what they’re typically worth if they’re labeled “haunted.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I mean, I’ve seen in the thousands, multiple times. I always tell people the higher the price doesn’t mean that it’s more haunted than the ones that are a lower price. Like, a spirit is a spirit. There’s no such thing as like, this spirit is more spirity than this other spirit. My rule of thumb that I always tell people is like, “You can’t put a price on the paranormal,” right? Paranormal experiences are not guaranteed. Paranormal experiences are not scientific fact. So for me, ethically, I believe that the object should be priced similarly to the price that their vessel or their doll is worth. So if you have a doll that is like a collector’s item and worth $300 — yeah, list it for $300. If you have a doll that’s worth $50, list it for $50. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The dybbuk box eBay listing was such a novelty at the time. Now, haunted doll listings are a dime a dozen. On eBay today, I scrolled through listings for haunted dolls, haunted clip-on earrings, haunted keys, haunted cargo pants, haunted labubus and — not joking — a quote, haunted by curious dybbuk box. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I am not cut out for the haunted doll life, but if you were to buy one, how are you supposed to sift through all the haunted scams? Taylor actually makes haunted doll guides and recently started focusing more on creating seller checklists so her followers can vet listings for themselves. She’s wary of any seller that makes content of EMF readings. She’s also suspicious of large-scale listings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> You go on their page and they have a hundred Haunted Dolls listed and nearly all of them have the same story. I mean, spirits are — they’re people and every person is different. So how do you have a 100 spirits who all are the same person basically with a different name and like slightly changed details? So that’s a red flag. The other thing is if the facts don’t line up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So I have seen — this happens a lot. This is a big one. The story will say, “Oh, this doll is haunted by so-and-so and so-and-so owned this doll when they were alive and it was very meaningful to them, so they chose to keep it with them in the afterlife.” And you source the year on the vessel, and the vessel — the doll itself — was made in 1980. It says that the spirit is from the 1800s. That’s impossible. They couldn’t have owned the doll in the 1800s when the doll was made in the 1980s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok is full of complaints and warnings of haunted scams. This is especially frustrating to Taylor, who really sees spirit keeping as a lifelong commitment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Seeing people repeatedly getting things that are fake. One, obviously it’s a waste of money. I mean, obviously that’s irritating. Financial scamming is no joke and pisses me off. But it goes beyond that into, you know, those are people that could give an actual spirit a really nice place to live. And getting scammed over and over again chases them away from this hobby. I may be able to change, you know, the quality of afterlife for the spirits in my home. I can help a finite number of spirits, but I can help a lot more spirits if I can teach other people to do what I’m doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m still not sure what my relationship to the paranormal is. I want objective evidence. Data. A clear, unequivocal answer that explains why things are the way that they are. But throughout the interview, I kept catching glimpses of Jeremiah over Taylor’s shoulder with his fluffy teddy bear ears and little legs dangling over the edge of the shelf. And when Taylor talked about taking care of spirits in the afterlife, I swear, I saw him perk up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That’s it for Close All Tabs’ special spooky storytime. We’ll have a fresh deep dive for you next week, but if you’re dying to open more tabs about the tales we told today, check out the episode description for some suggested reading. Or stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. It was engineered by Brendan Willard and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production support by Cayla Mihalovich. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Special thanks to Hallie Tut, Ted Hegemann, Craig Groshek, Rena Lee, and Paranormal Teej for sharing their stories with us. This episode includes clips and archive tape from Hallie Tut, Eli Unique, Paranomal Teej, and Villains Wiki.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Apple Maker Hi-75 keyboard with Foggered in Red Samurai keycaps and Gator on Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So when it comes to buying and selling, they don’t really care about the concept of it. Their primary focus is always like, “Am I going somewhere where somebody is going to be nice to me or not?” That’s what they care about — is like, “Am I going to a good home?” But the one thing I know they don’t like is the shipping. They don’t like shipping. I hear complaints about shipping all the time. So. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, yeah, you can’t, you, can’t yeah, kind of out of your control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I’m like, “Sorry.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In this special Halloween edition of Close All Tabs, we’re diving into creepypastas: horror stories that spread online until they become urban legends on their own. What happened to the girl who fell into a mirror in 2001? Did Ted the Caver ever come back to the surface? Was the Momo challenge real? And finally, we venture into eBay’s haunted doll marketplace … where we may have ended up with a spirit wreaking havoc on the production of this episode. It’s a ghoulish good time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@chillingtalesfordarknights\">Craig Groshek\u003c/a>, horror author and founder of \u003cem>Chilling Tales for Dark Nights\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"How She Creates VFX Shots That Break Your Brain — Hallie Tut, Youtube",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://medium.com/@LanceUlanoff/momo-challenge-is-everything-thats-wrong-with-the-internet-4d1a5679c1ed\">Momo Challenge Is Everything That’s Wrong with the Internet\u003c/a> — Lance Ulanoff, \u003cem>Medium\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://medium.com/@LanceUlanoff/momo-challenge-is-everything-thats-wrong-with-the-internet-4d1a5679c1ed\">Momo Challenge Is Everything That’s Wrong with the Internet\u003c/a> — Lance Ulanoff, \u003cem>Medium\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://yokai.com/ubume/?srsltid=AU7gw4UWwYuhjk8jv7LUe8ip4Sjmbw0bTmlbqoJ6kyNNEwWAjC7IZCV5\">Ubume\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Yokai.com\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://yokai.com/ubume/?srsltid=AU7gw4UWwYuhjk8jv7LUe8ip4Sjmbw0bTmlbqoJ6kyNNEwWAjC7IZCV5\">Ubume\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Yokai.com\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/how-momo-global-social-media-hoax-about-paranormal-threat-kids-n977961\">How ‘Momo’, a global social media hoax about a paranormal threat to kids, morphed into a U.S. viral phenomenon\u003c/a> — Ben Collins and Shoshana Wodinsky, \u003cem>NBC News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/how-momo-global-social-media-hoax-about-paranormal-threat-kids-n977961\">How ‘Momo’, a global social media hoax about a paranormal threat to kids, morphed into a U.S. viral phenomenon\u003c/a> — Ben Collins and Shoshana Wodinsky, \u003cem>NBC News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.inverse.com/input/features/dybbuk-box-dibbuk-kevin-mannis-zak-bagans-haunted-hoax-revealed\">Finally, the truth behind the ‘haunted’ Dybbuk Box can be revealed\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Inverse\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.inverse.com/input/features/dybbuk-box-dibbuk-kevin-mannis-zak-bagans-haunted-hoax-revealed\">Finally, the truth behind the ‘haunted’ Dybbuk Box can be revealed\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Inverse\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/work/careers/a34322508/the-witches-of-ebay-industry-selling-haunted-item/\">The witches of eBay: Inside the industry selling haunted items online\u003c/a> — Daniella Scott, \u003cem>Cosmopolitan\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/work/careers/a34322508/the-witches-of-ebay-industry-selling-haunted-item/\">The witches of eBay: Inside the industry selling haunted items online\u003c/a> — Daniella Scott, \u003cem>Cosmopolitan\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/62125/1/a24-youngest-ever-director-kane-parsons-the-backrooms-creepypasta-into-cinema\">The Backrooms: How Kane Parsons turned creepypasta into cinema\u003c/a> — Jack Mills, \u003cem>Dazed\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/62125/1/a24-youngest-ever-director-kane-parsons-the-backrooms-creepypasta-into-cinema\">The Backrooms: How Kane Parsons turned creepypasta into cinema\u003c/a> — Jack Mills, \u003cem>Dazed\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2026/05/what-is-backrooms-movie-original-explained-4chan-creepypasta-horror-internet.html\">The Eerie Backstory Behind Backrooms\u003c/a> — Nadira Goffe, \u003cem>Slate\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2026/05/what-is-backrooms-movie-original-explained-4chan-creepypasta-horror-internet.html\">The Eerie Backstory Behind Backrooms\u003c/a> — Nadira Goffe, \u003cem>Slate\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/revisiting-creepypasta-the-social-horror-craze-that-launched-slenderman/\">Revisiting Creepypasta, the Social Horror Craze That Launched Slenderman\u003c/a> — Zac Thompson, \u003cem>VICE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/revisiting-creepypasta-the-social-horror-craze-that-launched-slenderman/\">Revisiting Creepypasta, the Social Horror Craze That Launched Slenderman\u003c/a> — Zac Thompson, \u003cem>VICE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Happy spooky season tabbies. Is there a creepypasta you can’t stop thinking about? Or any internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity keeping you up at night? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate! Go to \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">KQED.org/podcasts/closealltabs\u003c/a> to submit your question.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Happy spooky season tabbies. Is there a creepypasta you can’t stop thinking about? Or any internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity keeping you up at night? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate! Go to \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">KQED.org/podcasts/closealltabs\u003c/a> to submit your question.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just a note, this episode contains mentions of suicide and horror themes so listen with care — or skip this one and come back next week. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just a note, this episode contains mentions of suicide and horror themes so listen with care — or skip this one and come back next week. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let me tell you a story about one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I was in middle school, hanging out in a family friend’s basement with a bunch of other kids, when my friend’s older brother asked us if we wanted to see something. We crowded around his laptop where he pulled up a YouTube video, titled “Entry #1.” It was just a few seconds of shaky footage, shot through a window from inside a house, of a lanky, suited figure lurking near the door. No sound…which made it feel more unsettling. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let me tell you a story about one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I was in middle school, hanging out in a family friend’s basement with a bunch of other kids, when my friend’s older brother asked us if we wanted to see something. We crowded around his laptop where he pulled up a YouTube video, titled “Entry #1.” It was just a few seconds of shaky footage, shot through a window from inside a house, of a lanky, suited figure lurking near the door. No sound…which made it feel more unsettling. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My friend’s brother told us that some guy online found all of these videos in his friend’s camera and started posting them to YouTube. He hit play on the next one. This had sound — some guy talking while he drove down a dark street. Not much is visible in this video…except the blurry silhouette of that same lanky figure, looming in the distance. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>My friend’s brother told us that some guy online found all of these videos in his friend’s camera and started posting them to YouTube. He hit play on the next one. This had sound — some guy talking while he drove down a dark street. Not much is visible in this video…except the blurry silhouette of that same lanky figure, looming in the distance. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Marble Hornets:\u003c/strong> I saw this really tall guy stand in the middle of the street, just completely still. For whatever reason, this really set off Rocky, and he got really scared. He wouldn’t move and he kept on pulling on his leash to go back home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Marble Hornets:\u003c/strong> I saw this really tall guy stand in the middle of the street, just completely still. For whatever reason, this really set off Rocky, and he got really scared. He wouldn’t move and he kept on pulling on his leash to go back home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back then, everything on the internet seemed real. My friends and I took all of it at face value. So we believed the YouTube comments that said they’d seen this figure too. My friend’s brother left, but the rest of us were totally hooked. So we hit play on another video. This was more shaky footage, again shot through a window from inside a house. The same figure was lurking, closer this time. The camera finally focused on an unnaturally pale, bald head. It had no face at all, just smooth white skin and hollow contours where eyes and a mouth and a nose should be. And then it turned to face the viewer, as if it was honing in on us. Then, my friend’s brother, from the top of the stairs, called out, “Who wants to meet Slenderman?” And shut off the basement lights. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back then, everything on the internet seemed real. My friends and I took all of it at face value. So we believed the YouTube comments that said they’d seen this figure too. My friend’s brother left, but the rest of us were totally hooked. So we hit play on another video. This was more shaky footage, again shot through a window from inside a house. The same figure was lurking, closer this time. The camera finally focused on an unnaturally pale, bald head. It had no face at all, just smooth white skin and hollow contours where eyes and a mouth and a nose should be. And then it turned to face the viewer, as if it was honing in on us. Then, my friend’s brother, from the top of the stairs, called out, “Who wants to meet Slenderman?” And shut off the basement lights. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The legend of Slenderman started in 2009, when someone posted black and white photos of children on a playground, seemingly oblivious to the spindly creature looming over them. The captions alluded to a string of child abductions from the 1980s. It was a submission for a Photoshop contest of paranormal happenings, which later inspired the YouTube series, Marble Hornets. That was the supposedly found footage that we watched in my friend’s basement. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The legend of Slenderman started in 2009, when someone posted black and white photos of children on a playground, seemingly oblivious to the spindly creature looming over them. The captions alluded to a string of child abductions from the 1980s. It was a submission for a Photoshop contest of paranormal happenings, which later inspired the YouTube series, Marble Hornets. That was the supposedly found footage that we watched in my friend’s basement. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I totally fell for it. For a good year after, I was terrified to look through windows at night in case Slenderman was peering back in. That was my first experience with a creepypasta. The word “creepypasta” is a play on “copypasta” — which is a portmanteau of “copy-paste.” They’re blocks of text that become memes because they’re copied and reposted so often. Creepypastas are online urban legends, Horror stories that start on forums and comment sections that spread across the internet and take on lives of their own. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I totally fell for it. For a good year after, I was terrified to look through windows at night in case Slenderman was peering back in. That was my first experience with a creepypasta. The word “creepypasta” is a play on “copypasta” — which is a portmanteau of “copy-paste.” They’re blocks of text that become memes because they’re copied and reposted so often. Creepypastas are online urban legends, Horror stories that start on forums and comment sections that spread across the internet and take on lives of their own. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome to Cursed All Tabs. This is our very special Halloween episode, where, instead of one deep dive, we have a bunch of spooky stories for you. These are tales of the paranormal kept alive on the internet. A girl stuck in a portal, caving gone wrong, an entity that might get you through the screen, and the eBay listings for haunted dolls. So, gather around our digital campfire and if you’re easily scared, don’t listen in the dark. Ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome to Cursed All Tabs. This is our very special Halloween episode, where, instead of one deep dive, we have a bunch of spooky stories for you. These are tales of the paranormal kept alive on the internet. A girl stuck in a portal, caving gone wrong, an entity that might get you through the screen, and the eBay listings for haunted dolls. So, gather around our digital campfire and if you’re easily scared, don’t listen in the dark. Ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Cursed All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung — tech journalist and your chronically online nightmare — here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s open our first tab and get into our first spooky story: “The girl in the mirror.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Cursed All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung — tech journalist and your chronically online nightmare — here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s open our first tab and get into our first spooky story: “The girl in the mirror.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Picture this: It’s the middle of the night. You can’t sleep. You’re doom-scrolling. It’s way past your bedtime and you’ve been awake for a little too long. So, in the darkness of your room, shadows start to take on the shape of strange figures. You catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror, barely visible in the moonlight, and for a second, it seems like the room and the reflection is deeper. Like it goes on forever. And then…mid-scroll, you come across this video. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Picture this: It’s the middle of the night. You can’t sleep. You’re doom-scrolling. It’s way past your bedtime and you’ve been awake for a little too long. So, in the darkness of your room, shadows start to take on the shape of strange figures. You catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror, barely visible in the moonlight, and for a second, it seems like the room and the reflection is deeper. Like it goes on forever. And then…mid-scroll, you come across this video. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> There’s something really strange going on here, and if something ends up happening to me, I just hope that this video can maybe explain it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> There’s something really strange going on here, and if something ends up happening to me, I just hope that this video can maybe explain it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a video of a teenager recording herself on an old-school, hand-held camcorder. The caption says it’s found footage dating back to January 2001. The camera sweeps across her bedroom — a matching set of yellow furniture, frilly curtains, pink walls, very 90s — and settles on an antique mirror propped up on a chair. It faces another full-length mirror mounted to the wall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a video of a teenager recording herself on an old-school, hand-held camcorder. The caption says it’s found footage dating back to January 2001. The camera sweeps across her bedroom — a matching set of yellow furniture, frilly curtains, pink walls, very 90s — and settles on an antique mirror propped up on a chair. It faces another full-length mirror mounted to the wall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Okay, so I have these two mirrors in my room. As you can see, they’re pretty normal looking mirrors, but I was cleaning and I had them kind of set up like this, and I noticed something really weird. Just watch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Okay, so I have these two mirrors in my room. As you can see, they’re pretty normal looking mirrors, but I was cleaning and I had them kind of set up like this, and I noticed something really weird. Just watch. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The girl places the camcorder on the bed and films herself putting her hand on one of the mirrors, but she passes straight through the glass into another world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The girl places the camcorder on the bed and films herself putting her hand on one of the mirrors, but she passes straight through the glass into another world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> See, when you look through the mirror into the other one, it becomes like a window. And there’s this huge warehouse, grocery store, or something down there. But wait, it gets even crazier. Watch this. Three, two, one. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> See, when you look through the mirror into the other one, it becomes like a window. And there’s this huge warehouse, grocery store, or something down there. But wait, it gets even crazier. Watch this. Three, two, one. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She fully jumps through the mirror and is transported into what looks like a fully stocked supermarket. But the aisles go on forever and there’s nobody else in sight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She fully jumps through the mirror and is transported into what looks like a fully stocked supermarket. But the aisles go on forever and there’s nobody else in sight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Woah. What the hell? What is this place? Hello? How far does it go? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Woah. What the hell? What is this place? Hello? How far does it go? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She begins running, and then… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She begins running, and then… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Oh shit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The camcorder zaps back to her room mid-air before bouncing onto her frilly white bed. It faces another mirror and in the reflection, the room looks empty. The girl is nowhere to be seen. You’re thoroughly creeped out so you start scouring the comments. Legend has it…she’s still missing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The camcorder zaps back to her room mid-air before bouncing onto her frilly white bed. It faces another mirror and in the reflection, the room looks empty. The girl is nowhere to be seen. You’re thoroughly creeped out so you start scouring the comments. Legend has it…she’s still missing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from ItsNickHoliday:\u003c/strong> A video a girl recorded in her bedroom in 2001, right before she went missing, has resurfaced and now is going viral. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from ItsNickHoliday:\u003c/strong> A video a girl recorded in her bedroom in 2001, right before she went missing, has resurfaced and now is going viral. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Generalist Authority:\u003c/strong> The camera was later found on her bed. She has not been located. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Generalist Authority:\u003c/strong> The camera was later found on her bed. She has not been located. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from brookesobasic:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if people know this or not, but facing two mirrors together is something you just shouldn’t do. And it’s said to open portals or bring in really bad energies or spirits — sometimes good — but usually bad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from brookesobasic:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if people know this or not, but facing two mirrors together is something you just shouldn’t do. And it’s said to open portals or bring in really bad energies or spirits — sometimes good — but usually bad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what happened to this girl who fell through a mirror over 20 years ago and was never heard from again? What is it about that abandoned, endless supermarket that feels both so familiar and so unsettling? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what happened to this girl who fell through a mirror over 20 years ago and was never heard from again? What is it about that abandoned, endless supermarket that feels both so familiar and so unsettling? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it — it just really is something where you don’t normally stay very long in a place like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it — it just really is something where you don’t normally stay very long in a place like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Hallie Tutte, a VFX artist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Hallie Tutte, a VFX artist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Liminal spaces are kind of these transitional places where usually it would be somewhere that’s filled of people going from point A to point B when a place that usually is filled with people is now completely empty — that gives it that eerie feeling because you never usually are used to seeing it completely abandoned like that. So if you got trapped there, it just brings out this strange feeling in you, I think. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Liminal spaces are kind of these transitional places where usually it would be somewhere that’s filled of people going from point A to point B when a place that usually is filled with people is now completely empty — that gives it that eerie feeling because you never usually are used to seeing it completely abandoned like that. So if you got trapped there, it just brings out this strange feeling in you, I think. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Halle is the real girl in the video. And don’t worry, she did not get stuck in the portal despite what some internet conspiracy theorists might think. She’s always been fascinated by liminal horror — stories that take place in vacant, in-between spaces, like the internet lore that inspired the movie Backrooms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Halle is the real girl in the video. And don’t worry, she did not get stuck in the portal despite what some internet conspiracy theorists might think. She’s always been fascinated by liminal horror — stories that take place in vacant, in-between spaces, like the internet lore that inspired the movie Backrooms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I grew up in a town that didn’t have a lot of people in it, and there’d be like these old shopping malls where no one would be around and all the stores are gone. And I always just loved the feeling of being in those spaces, like empty food courts. Me and my friends would just like to kind of hang out there. And I guess when I got into 3D modeling, it was a really fun way to get to build that feeling again by creating those spaces. And it’s something that’s really easy to accomplish in 3D and make it feel very real, very quickly because it’s just a lot of walls and lights and rooms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I grew up in a town that didn’t have a lot of people in it, and there’d be like these old shopping malls where no one would be around and all the stores are gone. And I always just loved the feeling of being in those spaces, like empty food courts. Me and my friends would just like to kind of hang out there. And I guess when I got into 3D modeling, it was a really fun way to get to build that feeling again by creating those spaces. And it’s something that’s really easy to accomplish in 3D and make it feel very real, very quickly because it’s just a lot of walls and lights and rooms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that video wasn’t filmed in 2001, but actually made in 2023. Hallie was inspired by found footage movies like The Blair Witch Project. She wanted to create something that felt like it was from the early 2000s, but using modern equipment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that video wasn’t filmed in 2001, but actually made in 2023. Hallie was inspired by found footage movies like The Blair Witch Project. She wanted to create something that felt like it was from the early 2000s, but using modern equipment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I shot it completely by myself in my room and it was actually shot on a Sony camera on a tripod and then any of the handheld stuff is all fake. The mirror that she’s shooting into is fake and to create that infinite Walmart effect, I went to my local Walmart late at night when it feels like a liminal space and I was able to kind of scan all of the shelves and create these 3D models that I then brought into, like a software like Blender, and created this infinite world with it. And yeah, it’s shot in my real bedroom. I live with my grandparents, so this used to be my aunt’s room. And everything in it feels very of the time period that I was trying to make that video set in, so it worked out really well that way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I shot it completely by myself in my room and it was actually shot on a Sony camera on a tripod and then any of the handheld stuff is all fake. The mirror that she’s shooting into is fake and to create that infinite Walmart effect, I went to my local Walmart late at night when it feels like a liminal space and I was able to kind of scan all of the shelves and create these 3D models that I then brought into, like a software like Blender, and created this infinite world with it. And yeah, it’s shot in my real bedroom. I live with my grandparents, so this used to be my aunt’s room. And everything in it feels very of the time period that I was trying to make that video set in, so it worked out really well that way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The video got a lot of views when she first posted it, but didn’t really go viral until a year later, when other influencers reposted it, speculating about what really happened to the girl in the mirror. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The video got a lot of views when she first posted it, but didn’t really go viral until a year later, when other influencers reposted it, speculating about what really happened to the girl in the mirror. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Even one of my art school teachers had sent me a link on Facebook to like a conspiracy channel where he’d seen it and asking if it was me. And that video had maybe 3 million views and thousands of comments, people’s discourse about whether it was real. Having remembered seeing this video from when they were younger, like in the early 2000s, people had made up like memories of it. Like kind of that Mandela effect was happening where people had — had this memory of knowing this story of this girl who went missing years prior to when I posted the video. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Even one of my art school teachers had sent me a link on Facebook to like a conspiracy channel where he’d seen it and asking if it was me. And that video had maybe 3 million views and thousands of comments, people’s discourse about whether it was real. Having remembered seeing this video from when they were younger, like in the early 2000s, people had made up like memories of it. Like kind of that Mandela effect was happening where people had — had this memory of knowing this story of this girl who went missing years prior to when I posted the video. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it was — it was just going all over the place online and I kind of started to go down a rabbit hole of Reddit posts about it and different names they were making up for the girl in the video. Like in one spot her name was Violet and the video was titled “Violet’s Playtime” or something strange like that. And then people were kind of using that name to discuss it in different forums. So just gets it away from you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it was — it was just going all over the place online and I kind of started to go down a rabbit hole of Reddit posts about it and different names they were making up for the girl in the video. Like in one spot her name was Violet and the video was titled “Violet’s Playtime” or something strange like that. And then people were kind of using that name to discuss it in different forums. So just gets it away from you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year, Hallie posted a video explaining that she was the creator of the video and that none of it was real. Even then, the conspiracies continued to spread. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year, Hallie posted a video explaining that she was the creator of the video and that none of it was real. Even then, the conspiracies continued to spread. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> When I made the video talking about how it was fake and I explained how I had made it and how viral it had went around the internet, but trying to claim that, in fact, it was me in my room by myself and I’m here and I am alive — a lot of people in those comments were saying, “The government made her do this,” or “She’s AI and this is a cover up — like this is the CIA cover up for this girl who’s still missing. She’s just — this is just a plant. This girl trying to pretend she’s the girl so they can keep hiding this conspiracy from us.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> When I made the video talking about how it was fake and I explained how I had made it and how viral it had went around the internet, but trying to claim that, in fact, it was me in my room by myself and I’m here and I am alive — a lot of people in those comments were saying, “The government made her do this,” or “She’s AI and this is a cover up — like this is the CIA cover up for this girl who’s still missing. She’s just — this is just a plant. This girl trying to pretend she’s the girl so they can keep hiding this conspiracy from us.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s wild how drastically the internet has changed since 2023. AI videos back then were nowhere near as convincing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s wild how drastically the internet has changed since 2023. AI videos back then were nowhere near as convincing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it would be a lot harder now with AI and even just the VFX work that was put into that. I don’t know if it would feel worth it anymore because of the way that people would just write it off. That video was definitely a labor of love for the technical challenges that I had to go through to make it look realistic and I think people now just won’t appreciate the craft that goes into something like that because they’ll just write it all off as AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it would be a lot harder now with AI and even just the VFX work that was put into that. I don’t know if it would feel worth it anymore because of the way that people would just write it off. That video was definitely a labor of love for the technical challenges that I had to go through to make it look realistic and I think people now just won’t appreciate the craft that goes into something like that because they’ll just write it all off as AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, I don’t know if I’d ever do one quite in the same way. I think if I had a really good story that I wanted to tell, and it was more based on just a really horror story, I might try again. But in a way that was more of a fun technical challenge for me to make it convincing. And in today’s day and age. That’s no longer really a worthy challenge. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, I don’t know if I’d ever do one quite in the same way. I think if I had a really good story that I wanted to tell, and it was more based on just a really horror story, I might try again. But in a way that was more of a fun technical challenge for me to make it convincing. And in today’s day and age. That’s no longer really a worthy challenge. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s so depressing. Have we killed creepypastas with AI? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s so depressing. Have we killed creepypastas with AI? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think creepypastes will live on, especially the more fictional stories that can’t be real things but that people really wish were real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think creepypastes will live on, especially the more fictional stories that can’t be real things but that people really wish were real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hallie herself is still making creepy horror content, pushing herself with new technical challenges and VFX tools. But the story she put out into the world three years ago continues to spread and morph beyond what she ever created. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hallie herself is still making creepy horror content, pushing herself with new technical challenges and VFX tools. But the story she put out into the world three years ago continues to spread and morph beyond what she ever created. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> It is essentially a creepypasta now, and the creepypasta might be well known by people, but it’s never going to really come back to me, which I kind of appreciate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> It is essentially a creepypasta now, and the creepypasta might be well known by people, but it’s never going to really come back to me, which I kind of appreciate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If, during the witching hour, you place two mirrors facing each other, you might open a ghostly passage. Legend has it that, if you look long enough, the infinite reflections will dissolve into all sorts of in-between places — sprawling underground train stations, sterile hospital waiting rooms, school hallways lined with pristine lockers. They will almost always be eerily empty, as if time comes to a standstill there. And sometimes, you might catch a glimpse of a cavernous, eternal supermarket — and the pink-haired teenager doomed to wander its empty aisles. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If, during the witching hour, you place two mirrors facing each other, you might open a ghostly passage. Legend has it that, if you look long enough, the infinite reflections will dissolve into all sorts of in-between places — sprawling underground train stations, sterile hospital waiting rooms, school hallways lined with pristine lockers. They will almost always be eerily empty, as if time comes to a standstill there. And sometimes, you might catch a glimpse of a cavernous, eternal supermarket — and the pink-haired teenager doomed to wander its empty aisles. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That story was brought to us by producer Maya Cueva. Unsettled yet? Well, we’re just getting started. The next internet scary story we have for you is actually the one that started it all. It’s known as the very first creepypasta, dating back to 2001. This tale comes from our very own senior editor, Chris Egusa. You might wanna turn on the lights for this one. Okay, let’s open a new tab. Who is Ted the Caver? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That story was brought to us by producer Maya Cueva. Unsettled yet? Well, we’re just getting started. The next internet scary story we have for you is actually the one that started it all. It’s known as the very first creepypasta, dating back to 2001. This tale comes from our very own senior editor, Chris Egusa. You might wanna turn on the lights for this one. Okay, let’s open a new tab. Who is Ted the Caver? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> In early 2001, a series of posts started appearing on an obscure Angelfire website, a site-building platform from the early internet. The page was bare bones. Basic HTML, a black background, and at the top, a salmon-colored title: “Welcome to the Page of Ted.” The posts were journal entries. The author? Anonymous, except for that first name: Ted. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> In early 2001, a series of posts started appearing on an obscure Angelfire website, a site-building platform from the early internet. The page was bare bones. Basic HTML, a black background, and at the top, a salmon-colored title: “Welcome to the Page of Ted.” The posts were journal entries. The author? Anonymous, except for that first name: Ted. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over the course of a few months, Ted posted a detailed account of a series of caving trips he took with a friend he identified only as “B,” to explore a previously unentered passage in a spot they called “Mystery Cave.” According to the first entry, the pair had found a hole in the rock wall deep inside the cave. It was only four to five inches across, but they knew it had to lead somewhere because of a steady stream of air that blew through it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Over the course of a few months, Ted posted a detailed account of a series of caving trips he took with a friend he identified only as “B,” to explore a previously unentered passage in a spot they called “Mystery Cave.” According to the first entry, the pair had found a hole in the rock wall deep inside the cave. It was only four to five inches across, but they knew it had to lead somewhere because of a steady stream of air that blew through it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The first journal entry included a link to a grainy photo of the hole. It was uneven in shape, and the rock it went through looked several inches thick. There was a glove tucked inside the hole for scale. The entry went on. Peeking through the hole with a mini maglite, they could see a tight tunnel that opened up after a few feet. They could feel the air blowing past, and they could hear something else: a low rumbling that came and went. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The first journal entry included a link to a grainy photo of the hole. It was uneven in shape, and the rock it went through looked several inches thick. There was a glove tucked inside the hole for scale. The entry went on. Peeking through the hole with a mini maglite, they could see a tight tunnel that opened up after a few feet. They could feel the air blowing past, and they could hear something else: a low rumbling that came and went. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ted and B brushed aside the strange details. They were too excited at the prospect of finding their way into a completely unexplored passage. So they made a plan: come back with hand tools and a cordless drill, break up the solid rock, and widen the hole until it was big enough to squeeze through. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ted and B brushed aside the strange details. They were too excited at the prospect of finding their way into a completely unexplored passage. So they made a plan: come back with hand tools and a cordless drill, break up the solid rock, and widen the hole until it was big enough to squeeze through. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ted named the passage Floyd’s Tomb, as a nod to Floyd Collins — an early 20th century cave explorer who got trapped and died as he attempted to enlarge a small tunnel in a cave system in Kentucky. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ted named the passage Floyd’s Tomb, as a nod to Floyd Collins — an early 20th century cave explorer who got trapped and died as he attempted to enlarge a small tunnel in a cave system in Kentucky. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Every few weeks through early 2001, a new post would appear on the website. They detailed the slow, grueling work of drilling and chiseling through rock until the batteries on their lights and tools ran out. Since the cave was a good distance from where they lived, Ted and B would stay at a nearby motel, recharge their batteries and bodies, and continue working the next day before heading home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Every few weeks through early 2001, a new post would appear on the website. They detailed the slow, grueling work of drilling and chiseling through rock until the batteries on their lights and tools ran out. Since the cave was a good distance from where they lived, Ted and B would stay at a nearby motel, recharge their batteries and bodies, and continue working the next day before heading home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Occasionally, Ted would mention some odd detail. Something unsettling. In one post, he described the wind as getting louder, a howl at that point. The rumbling had become more frequent, and he noted that it seemed to be emanating from deeper in the cave. Then he’d move on, refocusing on the task at hand. Each post linked more photos, documenting the progression of the hole. And as the entries went on, the details got stranger. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Occasionally, Ted would mention some odd detail. Something unsettling. In one post, he described the wind as getting louder, a howl at that point. The rumbling had become more frequent, and he noted that it seemed to be emanating from deeper in the cave. Then he’d move on, refocusing on the task at hand. Each post linked more photos, documenting the progression of the hole. And as the entries went on, the details got stranger. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On a trip in February, they brought B’s Jack Russell Terrier into the cave. Typically excitable and enthusiastic, she became edgy and began to whimper as she approached the hole. Her hair stood on end and she refused to get any closer. Later that same trip, B heard a scratching, grinding sound coming from inside the hole. When he got Ted’s attention to listen, it stopped. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On a trip in February, they brought B’s Jack Russell Terrier into the cave. Typically excitable and enthusiastic, she became edgy and began to whimper as she approached the hole. Her hair stood on end and she refused to get any closer. Later that same trip, B heard a scratching, grinding sound coming from inside the hole. When he got Ted’s attention to listen, it stopped. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On another trip in early March, Ted was kneeling at the wall, drilling — ear plugs in and safety glasses on. Over the noise of the drill, he heard a high-pitched sound. He pulled his earplug out just in time to hear an ear-piercing scream coming from inside the hole, echoing through the darkness. In his journal, he described it as a cross between a man screaming in fear and a cougar screaming in pain. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On another trip in early March, Ted was kneeling at the wall, drilling — ear plugs in and safety glasses on. Over the noise of the drill, he heard a high-pitched sound. He pulled his earplug out just in time to hear an ear-piercing scream coming from inside the hole, echoing through the darkness. In his journal, he described it as a cross between a man screaming in fear and a cougar screaming in pain. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The next day, the two couldn’t stop thinking about the sound. But they rationalized it as some kind of animal and decided to continue on, focused on getting to the other side. They’d come too far to give up. In the next entry, Ted explained that they’d widened the hole enough to squeeze through. It was so tight that Ted had to turn his head to the side and wedge himself in with his arms pinned at his sides. As he went further, he could feel the rock pressing into his back. The only way forward was to exhale all of his breath and push with his feet. So that’s what he did. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The next day, the two couldn’t stop thinking about the sound. But they rationalized it as some kind of animal and decided to continue on, focused on getting to the other side. They’d come too far to give up. In the next entry, Ted explained that they’d widened the hole enough to squeeze through. It was so tight that Ted had to turn his head to the side and wedge himself in with his arms pinned at his sides. As he went further, he could feel the rock pressing into his back. The only way forward was to exhale all of his breath and push with his feet. So that’s what he did. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Exhale. Scoot an inch or two. Breathe in shallowly. Exhale again. Scoot further. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Exhale. Scoot an inch or two. Breathe in shallowly. Exhale again. Scoot further. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The photo linked in that entry showed Ted wedged into the crevice wearing a black bandana, head cocked to the right. The flash lit up jagged rocks littering the floor beneath him. Then the passage began to open up. Ted was able to crawl forward, emerging for the first time into the untouched cavern. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The photo linked in that entry showed Ted wedged into the crevice wearing a black bandana, head cocked to the right. The flash lit up jagged rocks littering the floor beneath him. Then the passage began to open up. Ted was able to crawl forward, emerging for the first time into the untouched cavern. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The entries kept coming. And, without spoiling the rest of the story, things escalated from there. Ted found strange hieroglyphic markings on the cave wall, an unnaturally round rock that seemed to be moving on its own. A smell he described as damp, rotting, rancid, putrid, death, drifting up from deeper in the cave. Then, in the deepest section of the tunnel, he encountered something. Something that seemed to follow him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The entries kept coming. And, without spoiling the rest of the story, things escalated from there. Ted found strange hieroglyphic markings on the cave wall, an unnaturally round rock that seemed to be moving on its own. A smell he described as damp, rotting, rancid, putrid, death, drifting up from deeper in the cave. Then, in the deepest section of the tunnel, he encountered something. Something that seemed to follow him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The last entry on the site was from Ted, writing the morning of his final trip into the cave. By then, he was badly shaken and suffering from lucid nightmares. He was determined to figure out what was going on, once and for all. And then, the entries stopped. Even years later, nothing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The last entry on the site was from Ted, writing the morning of his final trip into the cave. By then, he was badly shaken and suffering from lucid nightmares. He was determined to figure out what was going on, once and for all. And then, the entries stopped. Even years later, nothing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the Angelfire site stayed up, preserving Ted’s story. The collection of entries — nine in total, clocking in at over 25,000 words — is now known as Ted the Caver, and many consider it to be the very first creepypasta. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the Angelfire site stayed up, preserving Ted’s story. The collection of entries — nine in total, clocking in at over 25,000 words — is now known as Ted the Caver, and many consider it to be the very first creepypasta. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> At the time when I first read it, there was nothing like it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> At the time when I first read it, there was nothing like it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig Groshek is a horror author who runs Chilling Tales for Dark Nights, a company and YouTube channel devoted to creepypasta, along with several podcasts. He first came across Ted the Caver in high school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig Groshek is a horror author who runs Chilling Tales for Dark Nights, a company and YouTube channel devoted to creepypasta, along with several podcasts. He first came across Ted the Caver in high school. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> You’re just surfing the internet and all of a sudden you come across this poor guy, you know, getting trapped with unspeakable horrors in the underground. And the story very much leaves you feeling that you don’t know what happened to him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> You’re just surfing the internet and all of a sudden you come across this poor guy, you know, getting trapped with unspeakable horrors in the underground. And the story very much leaves you feeling that you don’t know what happened to him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> At the center of a lot of the online discussion was one question — was it real? The story had all these supernatural elements, but it also felt believable. The gear, the technical descriptions of caving, the photos. It read like a real caving journal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> At the center of a lot of the online discussion was one question — was it real? The story had all these supernatural elements, but it also felt believable. The gear, the technical descriptions of caving, the photos. It read like a real caving journal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> Just when you thought there’s a chance that this was baloney, he threw up a photo. Critical thinking aside, that inclusion of photos drew you right back in, and it made everything that came after it even scarier. And of course we were experiencing this in real time. If you were there when it happened, this wasn’t a story you picked up years later. This was a man this was actually happening to, and you couldn’t do anything about it. It was like watching someone sleepwalk into traffic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> Just when you thought there’s a chance that this was baloney, he threw up a photo. Critical thinking aside, that inclusion of photos drew you right back in, and it made everything that came after it even scarier. And of course we were experiencing this in real time. If you were there when it happened, this wasn’t a story you picked up years later. This was a man this was actually happening to, and you couldn’t do anything about it. It was like watching someone sleepwalk into traffic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But you couldn’t ask Ted. For years, no one could confirm who he was, or whether his name was even Ted. Authorship of the story was disputed, with several people taking credit. Eventually, the real Ted emerged and began posting intermittently on some online forums. In 2015, Craig decided to track him down in person. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But you couldn’t ask Ted. For years, no one could confirm who he was, or whether his name was even Ted. Authorship of the story was disputed, with several people taking credit. Eventually, the real Ted emerged and began posting intermittently on some online forums. In 2015, Craig decided to track him down in person. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> All I had to go on was the original post and some forums on the internet where he had appeared. And the way I found him was via reverse image search. He used the same picture, I believe he was standing on train tracks, maybe with his dog, and it was the same pictures of him on every forum that he used. I tracked him down to a disc golf course. I had the guy at the country club there, because they have a golf course and a disc golf and I had them hand Ted my information on a cocktail napkin. And the next thing you know, Ted’s calling me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> All I had to go on was the original post and some forums on the internet where he had appeared. And the way I found him was via reverse image search. He used the same picture, I believe he was standing on train tracks, maybe with his dog, and it was the same pictures of him on every forum that he used. I tracked him down to a disc golf course. I had the guy at the country club there, because they have a golf course and a disc golf and I had them hand Ted my information on a cocktail napkin. And the next thing you know, Ted’s calling me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig commissioned Ted to write an original horror story for an anthology he was putting together. It was only the second horror story Ted had ever written. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig commissioned Ted to write an original horror story for an anthology he was putting together. It was only the second horror story Ted had ever written. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name is Ted Hegemann. I am the author of the story that is now known as “Ted the Caver.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name is Ted Hegemann. I am the author of the story that is now known as “Ted the Caver.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> His story about the terrors lurking in Mystery Cave was his first. Ted is now 62 and lives in Utah. These days, he spends his free time playing disc golf. It’s the latest in a string of obsessions. 25 years ago, he was obsessed with caving. And, as it turns out, a lot of the story is based on real experiences. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> His story about the terrors lurking in Mystery Cave was his first. Ted is now 62 and lives in Utah. These days, he spends his free time playing disc golf. It’s the latest in a string of obsessions. 25 years ago, he was obsessed with caving. And, as it turns out, a lot of the story is based on real experiences. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> So, my buddy, Brad and I — who is B in the story — we went out to this cave that’s right on the border of Utah and Nevada. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> So, my buddy, Brad and I — who is B in the story — we went out to this cave that’s right on the border of Utah and Nevada. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Ted and Brad really did open up an entrance to a new passage. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Ted and Brad really did open up an entrance to a new passage. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It took us numerous trips, I think eight trips before I was able to get past the opening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The squeeze through Floyd’s tomb? Ted says it happened just how he wrote it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was literally exhaling my lungs and scooting with my feet, with my arms down to my side to keep my shoulders down. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Technically, he did the squeeze twice. By the second time, they had opened the passage up a little wider, and he was able to fit through with slightly more ease. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Technically, he did the squeeze twice. By the second time, they had opened the passage up a little wider, and he was able to fit through with slightly more ease. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was keeping a journal the entire time — a caving journal — as well as updating friends and family, you know, as to the progress. It was kind of a neat thing. And when we were done, I thought rather than telling everyone about it, I’ll just upload my journal on a — find a website — and put it up. And then I had the idea that it’d be kind of fun to embellish a little bit. And so that’s where the story came from. So much of it is just directly out of my caving journal. And then the creepy parts were invented, of course. But the idea didn’t come until after we had gone into the cave. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> A lot of the eerie details were rooted in his actual experience, too. Like the air blowing through the hole. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> A lot of the eerie details were rooted in his actual experience, too. Like the air blowing through the hole. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We knew about the hole because we would stop there, because the wind blew out and you generally worked up a little bit of a sweat getting to that point in the cave. So we would stop and just let the cool air cool us off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We knew about the hole because we would stop there, because the wind blew out and you generally worked up a little bit of a sweat getting to that point in the cave. So we would stop and just let the cool air cool us off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And the low rumbling. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We figured it was I-80 — just trucks or whatever — because it wasn’t constant. It was just every once in a while. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We figured it was I-80 — just trucks or whatever — because it wasn’t constant. It was just every once in a while. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And they really brought a Jack Russell terrier into the cave. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And they really brought a Jack Russell terrier into the cave. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Demon dog, oh my goodness, it nipped at me so many times. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Demon dog, oh my goodness, it nipped at me so many times. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But the part about it whimpering and refusing to go near the hole, that was embellished. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But the part about it whimpering and refusing to go near the hole, that was embellished. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It was having a good time running around exploring. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It was having a good time running around exploring. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> I asked Ted at what point the story became complete fiction. I’m thinking of — there’s the terrifying scream that you both hear. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> I asked Ted at what point the story became complete fiction. I’m thinking of — there’s the terrifying scream that you both hear. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> The scream. The grinding noise that we would hear inside, the smell when I went in there, and the round rock. There was no round rock, sadly. Oh, and the little hieroglyph thing that was in there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> The scream. The grinding noise that we would hear inside, the smell when I went in there, and the round rock. There was no round rock, sadly. Oh, and the little hieroglyph thing that was in there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> It took Ted almost a year to write the whole thing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> It took Ted almost a year to write the whole thing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> And at one point, I gave up on it. I thought, “Oh, this is dumb. Who’s going to want to read this?” But then I sucked it up and thought, “Yeah, at least finish it. And then who cares? You know, if nothing happens.” But yeah, little did I know. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> And at one point, I gave up on it. I thought, “Oh, this is dumb. Who’s going to want to read this?” But then I sucked it up and thought, “Yeah, at least finish it. And then who cares? You know, if nothing happens.” But yeah, little did I know. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> He posted it, one update at a time, through the spring of 2001, and he knew the story had attracted a decent readership. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> He posted it, one update at a time, through the spring of 2001, and he knew the story had attracted a decent readership. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I did have a hidden counter on there and got up into the tens of thousands of views. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I did have a hidden counter on there and got up into the tens of thousands of views. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The story simmered underground, making its way through different communities, but never going viral the way things might today. And then, a few years after he posted the story, someone sent him a link to a caving forum where it was being discussed. After that, he started digging around. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The story simmered underground, making its way through different communities, but never going viral the way things might today. And then, a few years after he posted the story, someone sent him a link to a caving forum where it was being discussed. After that, he started digging around. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> That was one of the cooler weekends of my life. I remember our internet was really slow. So I went to the library and I just kept searching and found all these forums where they’re talking about it. And it just blew me away. How many people liked it. So many people said it scared them to death in very colorful ways. It was just so fun to know that that people were reading it and enjoying it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> That was one of the cooler weekends of my life. I remember our internet was really slow. So I went to the library and I just kept searching and found all these forums where they’re talking about it. And it just blew me away. How many people liked it. So many people said it scared them to death in very colorful ways. It was just so fun to know that that people were reading it and enjoying it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> For Ted, who’s not even a big horror fan, the fact that this story he posted 25 years ago keeps coming up is a lasting source of enjoyment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> For Ted, who’s not even a big horror fan, the fact that this story he posted 25 years ago keeps coming up is a lasting source of enjoyment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I just discovered this like last year. I started Googling and I found all of these YouTube channels where they talk about the story. They’ll read it and then give their thoughts about it. And I mean, one of them had three million views. It just kind of blew me away. I think it’s just a blast. I love it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I just discovered this like last year. I started Googling and I found all of these YouTube channels where they talk about the story. They’ll read it and then give their thoughts about it. And I mean, one of them had three million views. It just kind of blew me away. I think it’s just a blast. I love it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> So is Ted the Caver the first creepypasta? As with most things on the internet, it’s hard to pinpoint. The term creepypasta itself came into use years later. And some people point to the genre’s similarities to chain emails from the 90s, which pre-date Ted’s story. But Craig Groshek says Ted the Caver certainly has a claim to the title. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> So is Ted the Caver the first creepypasta? As with most things on the internet, it’s hard to pinpoint. The term creepypasta itself came into use years later. And some people point to the genre’s similarities to chain emails from the 90s, which pre-date Ted’s story. But Craig Groshek says Ted the Caver certainly has a claim to the title. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> If you’re looking at the Mount Rushmore of creepypasta, of internet-based horror, Ted the Caver’s is definitely up there. In terms of storytelling — the immersion, the fact that you felt like this was a real person that may have actually disappeared, and for years that remained uncontested — you have to put it up there just for that. He was really a pioneer without realizing that’s what he was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> If you’re looking at the Mount Rushmore of creepypasta, of internet-based horror, Ted the Caver’s is definitely up there. In terms of storytelling — the immersion, the fact that you felt like this was a real person that may have actually disappeared, and for years that remained uncontested — you have to put it up there just for that. He was really a pioneer without realizing that’s what he was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> More widely known creepypastas like Slenderman and more recently Backrooms, which was turned into a Hollywood movie this year, all have their roots in Ted the Caver. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> More widely known creepypastas like Slenderman and more recently Backrooms, which was turned into a Hollywood movie this year, all have their roots in Ted the Caver. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> I think you can trace it to a lot of these things, but Backrooms being the most recent example. I don’t know that you can say these things wouldn’t have existed without Ted, but you can’t say that they would either. This entire genre started with a couple of people copying and pasting creepy stuff to try to get a rise out of somebody. And Ted absolutely leaned into that at the end. He knew there were people that thought he was dead and he didn’t even care. Thanks, Ted. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> I think you can trace it to a lot of these things, but Backrooms being the most recent example. I don’t know that you can say these things wouldn’t have existed without Ted, but you can’t say that they would either. This entire genre started with a couple of people copying and pasting creepy stuff to try to get a rise out of somebody. And Ted absolutely leaned into that at the end. He knew there were people that thought he was dead and he didn’t even care. Thanks, Ted. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> When Ted Hegemann posted his story on Angelfire, he could have never anticipated where it would go. It was adapted into a movie in 2008 called Living Dark: The Story of Ted the Caver. And as for Mystery Cave? It’s been officially mapped out now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> When Ted Hegemann posted his story on Angelfire, he could have never anticipated where it would go. It was adapted into a movie in 2008 called Living Dark: The Story of Ted the Caver. And as for Mystery Cave? It’s been officially mapped out now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It’s called “Interstate Cave” and thankfully they did call that passage “Floyd’s Tomb” so it’s official on the map now. And DeWalt’s Dig, it was the opening, because we were using DeWalt tools. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It’s called “Interstate Cave” and thankfully they did call that passage “Floyd’s Tomb” so it’s official on the map now. And DeWalt’s Dig, it was the opening, because we were using DeWalt tools. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig says that for all the ways storytelling has changed over the years with digital media, in some ways, it hasn’t changed at all. Instead of sitting around a physical campfire, we now sit around a digital one — on message boards, comment sections, and Discord chat rooms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig says that for all the ways storytelling has changed over the years with digital media, in some ways, it hasn’t changed at all. Instead of sitting around a physical campfire, we now sit around a digital one — on message boards, comment sections, and Discord chat rooms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> It started with one man telling his story around what is essentially a digital campfire. And as time has gone on, more and more people have gathered around that fire. And 20 plus years later people are still telling that story and that is a testament to how believable it was, how well written it was how immersive it was and how well it tapped into a primal fear that a lot of people have — whether it’s of the unknown, of the dark or not knowing what you can’t see. And that’s why I think it has stood the test of time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> It started with one man telling his story around what is essentially a digital campfire. And as time has gone on, more and more people have gathered around that fire. And 20 plus years later people are still telling that story and that is a testament to how believable it was, how well written it was how immersive it was and how well it tapped into a primal fear that a lot of people have — whether it’s of the unknown, of the dark or not knowing what you can’t see. And that’s why I think it has stood the test of time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That was senior editor Chris Egusa. One thing about me: You will never catch me caving. Ever. The idea of squeezing into an underground passage where you can get stuck or lost or run out of air sounds hellish enough. And there might be an entity down there? No, thank you! Between whatever’s in the caves and Slenderman lurking in the woods, it seems safer to just stay inside. But the monsters from creepypastas can get you even if you never log off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That was senior editor Chris Egusa. One thing about me: You will never catch me caving. Ever. The idea of squeezing into an underground passage where you can get stuck or lost or run out of air sounds hellish enough. And there might be an entity down there? No, thank you! Between whatever’s in the caves and Slenderman lurking in the woods, it seems safer to just stay inside. But the monsters from creepypastas can get you even if you never log off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After the break, we have a story about the creature haunting your screens. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, when we’re back, what do you know about Momo? Stick around. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>After the break, we have a story about the creature haunting your screens. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, when we’re back, what do you know about Momo? Stick around. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back to the Close All Tabs special spooky story time. This next one is about an entity that I hate looking at, even as a full-grown adult. This creepypasta retelling comes from our very own intern, Lauren Yoon. Let’s open another new tab. The legend of Momo. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome back to the Close All Tabs special spooky story time. This next one is about an entity that I hate looking at, even as a full-grown adult. This creepypasta retelling comes from our very own intern, Lauren Yoon. Let’s open another new tab. The legend of Momo. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> Picture a gaunt, paper-skinned woman with a protruding neck and bulging eyes. Her jet-black hair stringy to match a thousand-eye stare that could kill. She looks uncanny. The most important feature of the infamous viral image: she holds a smile that spans cheek-to-cheek in the shape of a “V.” Yep, that’s right. My internet urban legend is Momo. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> Picture a gaunt, paper-skinned woman with a protruding neck and bulging eyes. Her jet-black hair stringy to match a thousand-eye stare that could kill. She looks uncanny. The most important feature of the infamous viral image: she holds a smile that spans cheek-to-cheek in the shape of a “V.” Yep, that’s right. My internet urban legend is Momo. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Fandom:\u003c/strong> Do you want a surprise? Look in their eyes. I won’t lie, you’re going to die. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Fandom:\u003c/strong> Do you want a surprise? Look in their eyes. I won’t lie, you’re going to die. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> It’s 2019. Musical.ly had just become TikTok. Everyone was doing the woah, and Avengers: Endgame was in theaters. And Momo was threatening harm to all who came across her. I remember Momo being passed around between my friend group, joking she would haunt them while they slept or something. Here’s my friend, Sophia, talking about Momo. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> It’s 2019. Musical.ly had just become TikTok. Everyone was doing the woah, and Avengers: Endgame was in theaters. And Momo was threatening harm to all who came across her. I remember Momo being passed around between my friend group, joking she would haunt them while they slept or something. Here’s my friend, Sophia, talking about Momo. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sophia Bruno:\u003c/strong> I was very much afraid of it in the sense that I just thought it was a weird-looking picture that my friend introduced me to because I think she was like, “Oh Momo’s gonna get you” and I was like, “What is Momo?” And then she showed me. And my friends and I would mostly joke about it like, “Momo is gonna get you whatever” but in terms of the real-life stories I mean I believed them and I believed — I feel like there was a mysterious lore around it like it would just kind of you and like attach itself to you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sophia Bruno:\u003c/strong> I was very much afraid of it in the sense that I just thought it was a weird-looking picture that my friend introduced me to because I think she was like, “Oh Momo’s gonna get you” and I was like, “What is Momo?” And then she showed me. And my friends and I would mostly joke about it like, “Momo is gonna get you whatever” but in terms of the real-life stories I mean I believed them and I believed — I feel like there was a mysterious lore around it like it would just kind of you and like attach itself to you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> In reality, I also hated Momo. If I was joking about it with friends, it was mostly because laughter is the best defense mechanism against fear. What scared me the most were stories of Momo contacting you over the phone and telling you to do horrible things to yourself or others. It became known in mainstream media as “the Momo challenge.” The idea was that kids would challenge each other to make contact with Momo, sparking her wrath. She was even rumored to have reached kids’ videos on YouTube, where her face would pop up out of nowhere during an episode of Peppa Pig. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> In reality, I also hated Momo. If I was joking about it with friends, it was mostly because laughter is the best defense mechanism against fear. What scared me the most were stories of Momo contacting you over the phone and telling you to do horrible things to yourself or others. It became known in mainstream media as “the Momo challenge.” The idea was that kids would challenge each other to make contact with Momo, sparking her wrath. She was even rumored to have reached kids’ videos on YouTube, where her face would pop up out of nowhere during an episode of Peppa Pig. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rumors caused a media frenzy, and Momo became a sensationalized, quote, danger to children. The Post, The Today Show, and a bunch of other news outlets around the world warned concerned parents about the internet legend. They encouraged parents to put restrictions on social media and YouTube for their kids — something parents should probably be doing anyway — without evidence that the Momo challenge was real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The rumors caused a media frenzy, and Momo became a sensationalized, quote, danger to children. The Post, The Today Show, and a bunch of other news outlets around the world warned concerned parents about the internet legend. They encouraged parents to put restrictions on social media and YouTube for their kids — something parents should probably be doing anyway — without evidence that the Momo challenge was real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Surprise! It wasn’t. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Surprise! It wasn’t. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There has been no evidence to show that Momo or anyone posing as the character actually contacted people, let alone children. YouTube denied any claims of Momo popping up in the middle of their videos, too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There has been no evidence to show that Momo or anyone posing as the character actually contacted people, let alone children. YouTube denied any claims of Momo popping up in the middle of their videos, too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So where did Momo even come from? Well, she’s a picture of a sculpture called “Mother Bird,” created by Japanese artist Keisuke Aiso. If we zoom out of their original picture, you can clearly see the figure, propped up on a stand in an art gallery. The face we all know and…hate? Attached to a human chest with two huge bird legs. Keisuke based her off of this Japanese folklore called “Ubume,” a version of which translates to “child-snatching bird.” Makes sense. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So where did Momo even come from? Well, she’s a picture of a sculpture called “Mother Bird,” created by Japanese artist Keisuke Aiso. If we zoom out of their original picture, you can clearly see the figure, propped up on a stand in an art gallery. The face we all know and…hate? Attached to a human chest with two huge bird legs. Keisuke based her off of this Japanese folklore called “Ubume,” a version of which translates to “child-snatching bird.” Makes sense. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The image first spread on a Chinese social dating app called Momo, and that’s how the Momo we know today was born. So how did she spread so fast? And so far? I mean, a police station in Northern Ireland issued a statement and Kim Kardashian posted on Instagram, both figures warning parents about this dangerous, quote, challenge. My friend Rena has a theory that this all happened because the internet was a little newer to us at the time. AI wasn’t generating images like they are today, so we took a lot of things at face value. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The image first spread on a Chinese social dating app called Momo, and that’s how the Momo we know today was born. So how did she spread so fast? And so far? I mean, a police station in Northern Ireland issued a statement and Kim Kardashian posted on Instagram, both figures warning parents about this dangerous, quote, challenge. My friend Rena has a theory that this all happened because the internet was a little newer to us at the time. AI wasn’t generating images like they are today, so we took a lot of things at face value. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rena Lee:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t have this backpedaling of, “Is this AI, is this real?” A lot of information and media that we were fed at the time, it was easier to believe, “Oh my God, this looks so realistic. This has to be a real picture.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rena Lee:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t have this backpedaling of, “Is this AI, is this real?” A lot of information and media that we were fed at the time, it was easier to believe, “Oh my God, this looks so realistic. This has to be a real picture.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> I personally think it’s a combination of this naivete, plus the misinformation being spread by major national news outlets. The public sphere unfortunately feeds off of fear — talk about the horror of it all, right? — and Momo was the scapegoat for millennials and boomers concerned about what new dangers the internet proposed for their children. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> I personally think it’s a combination of this naivete, plus the misinformation being spread by major national news outlets. The public sphere unfortunately feeds off of fear — talk about the horror of it all, right? — and Momo was the scapegoat for millennials and boomers concerned about what new dangers the internet proposed for their children. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Keisuke destroyed the original sculpture not too long after it was created because it started rotting. It was made of materials that weren’t meant to last long. The only part of the sculpture remaining is its eyeball. Here is an excerpt of Keisuke’s interview with The Sun from 2019. He’s speaking through a translator. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Keisuke destroyed the original sculpture not too long after it was created because it started rotting. It was made of materials that weren’t meant to last long. The only part of the sculpture remaining is its eyeball. Here is an excerpt of Keisuke’s interview with The Sun from 2019. He’s speaking through a translator. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from The Sun:\u003c/strong> I got rid of Momo, so it is no longer here with me. I believe it no longer exists in this world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from The Sun:\u003c/strong> I got rid of Momo, so it is no longer here with me. I believe it no longer exists in this world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> He was pretty horrified by the way his art became so misunderstood and taken out of context. I wonder if people today would be as scared as they were five, six years ago when we weren’t burdened with the constant doubt that comes with the images we see online today. The landscape of internet paranoia has changed, and so I wonder if the Momo challenge could be recreated in this day and age. I even miss the mystery she brought to my life, something that has slowly dissipated as I trust the internet less and less. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> He was pretty horrified by the way his art became so misunderstood and taken out of context. I wonder if people today would be as scared as they were five, six years ago when we weren’t burdened with the constant doubt that comes with the images we see online today. The landscape of internet paranoia has changed, and so I wonder if the Momo challenge could be recreated in this day and age. I even miss the mystery she brought to my life, something that has slowly dissipated as I trust the internet less and less. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Momo may have been a hoax, but her impact was real. The image of her bulging eyes and wide smile is still burned into the back of my skull. And when I’m trying to fall asleep at night, and I open my eyes to the dark corner of my room, she’s the figure I imagine standing there…waiting for my eyes to close again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Momo may have been a hoax, but her impact was real. The image of her bulging eyes and wide smile is still burned into the back of my skull. And when I’m trying to fall asleep at night, and I open my eyes to the dark corner of my room, she’s the figure I imagine standing there…waiting for my eyes to close again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to you by our intern, Lauren Yoon. We’ll have more on Momo in our further reading, but before you hit that link, consider this your jumpscare warning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to you by our intern, Lauren Yoon. We’ll have more on Momo in our further reading, but before you hit that link, consider this your jumpscare warning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anyway, I have one more story for you. It starts with an eBay listing for an antique wine cabinet with strict warnings to never open it, lest you unleash misfortune upon anyone who comes in contact with the box. But the real horror story here is disappointingly mundane. Let’s open one last tab. The haunted doll scam market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anyway, I have one more story for you. It starts with an eBay listing for an antique wine cabinet with strict warnings to never open it, lest you unleash misfortune upon anyone who comes in contact with the box. But the real horror story here is disappointingly mundane. Let’s open one last tab. The haunted doll scam market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the most infamous haunted objects was actually sold on eBay. In 2003, Kevin Mannis listed an antique wine cabinet with an unusually detailed description. He had picked it up at an estate sale, and the woman who sold it to him said it belonged to her grandmother, a Holocaust survivor. Her grandmother had been insistent that her family never, ever open the box. She said it contained a spirit called a dybbuk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the most infamous haunted objects was actually sold on eBay. In 2003, Kevin Mannis listed an antique wine cabinet with an unusually detailed description. He had picked it up at an estate sale, and the woman who sold it to him said it belonged to her grandmother, a Holocaust survivor. Her grandmother had been insistent that her family never, ever open the box. She said it contained a spirit called a dybbuk. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Did Kevin heed the warning? No. He brought it back to his workshop and opened it right up — ignoring the creepy locks of hair and carved Hebrew prayers inside. A series of tragedies followed. His mother had a stroke when she opened the box. His siblings complained of terrifying nightmares. Someone who knocked the box off a shelf died by suicide the same day. Kevin himself started having visions of a demonic old woman with sunken eyes. He recounted the story in his eBay listing, which ended with, “Help me.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Did Kevin heed the warning? No. He brought it back to his workshop and opened it right up — ignoring the creepy locks of hair and carved Hebrew prayers inside. A series of tragedies followed. His mother had a stroke when she opened the box. His siblings complained of terrifying nightmares. Someone who knocked the box off a shelf died by suicide the same day. Kevin himself started having visions of a demonic old woman with sunken eyes. He recounted the story in his eBay listing, which ended with, “Help me.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The box was bought and resold several times over the next decade. Owners complained of hair falling out in clumps, bleeding from the eyes, waking up choking, and dreams of the creepy old woman. The box finally found a permanent home in a museum for haunted objects, sealed behind layers of protective glass. It even inspired the 2012 movie, The Possession. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The box was bought and resold several times over the next decade. Owners complained of hair falling out in clumps, bleeding from the eyes, waking up choking, and dreams of the creepy old woman. The box finally found a permanent home in a museum for haunted objects, sealed behind layers of protective glass. It even inspired the 2012 movie, The Possession. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then, five years ago, Kevin admitted that it was all fake. He made up everything in the original listing. There are no dybbuk boxes in Jewish folklore. The malicious spirits attached to people, not objects. The people who bought the box after Kevin sold it maintained that their hauntings really happened. But as far as Kevin was concerned, the whole eBay thing was a creative writing exercise that spiraled out of control. But today, haunted objects are a hot commodity. And one object, in particular, has become incredibly popular in the secondhand haunted market: dolls. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then, five years ago, Kevin admitted that it was all fake. He made up everything in the original listing. There are no dybbuk boxes in Jewish folklore. The malicious spirits attached to people, not objects. The people who bought the box after Kevin sold it maintained that their hauntings really happened. But as far as Kevin was concerned, the whole eBay thing was a creative writing exercise that spiraled out of control. But today, haunted objects are a hot commodity. And one object, in particular, has become incredibly popular in the secondhand haunted market: dolls. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> EBay, Etsy, they’re all over the place. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> EBay, Etsy, they’re all over the place. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Taylor, a TikTok creator and YouTuber, also known as Paranormal Teej. She’s a paranormal investigator and haunted doll caretaker. She called me from a room packed with dolls. Can you describe the room you’re in? Like what’s around you? What are the stories behind all that? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Taylor, a TikTok creator and YouTuber, also known as Paranormal Teej. She’s a paranormal investigator and haunted doll caretaker. She called me from a room packed with dolls. Can you describe the room you’re in? Like what’s around you? What are the stories behind all that? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yes. So in this room, we have about 120 haunted dolls. They come from all around the world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yes. So in this room, we have about 120 haunted dolls. They come from all around the world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor keeps them lined up on shelves. Some are porcelain collector’s dolls, dressed in frilly skirts. Others are soft rag dolls, clearly pre-loved by some young child. And while we talked, I swear I could feel them gazing back at me through the screen. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor keeps them lined up on shelves. Some are porcelain collector’s dolls, dressed in frilly skirts. Others are soft rag dolls, clearly pre-loved by some young child. And while we talked, I swear I could feel them gazing back at me through the screen. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They keep me on my toes. I work with a lot of, like, trickster spirits. I am very interested in working with, like, spirits with kind of wacky, wild personalities. They are a riot. We adore them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They keep me on my toes. I work with a lot of, like, trickster spirits. I am very interested in working with, like, spirits with kind of wacky, wild personalities. They are a riot. We adore them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She introduced me to a few of them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She introduced me to a few of them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So first one I’m going to point out is Jeremiah. If I don’t point him out to you, he will mess with our recordings. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So first one I’m going to point out is Jeremiah. If I don’t point him out to you, he will mess with our recordings. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jeremiah is this big soft bear, wearing a striped t-shirt. His plush legs dangle off the shelf, like a little kid’s would. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jeremiah is this big soft bear, wearing a striped t-shirt. His plush legs dangle off the shelf, like a little kid’s would. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> He is a six and a half year old little boy. The half is very important to him. Six is not acceptable. He moves, he moves things, um, especially lollipops. That’s, like, kind of his gig. He loves green things. Um, everything he wants has to be green. So he has moved like lollie pops around our house, threw them down the stairs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> He is a six and a half year old little boy. The half is very important to him. Six is not acceptable. He moves, he moves things, um, especially lollipops. That’s, like, kind of his gig. He loves green things. Um, everything he wants has to be green. So he has moved like lollie pops around our house, threw them down the stairs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed out another doll. She has a cherubic face and stark black pigtails, and she’s besties with Jeremiah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed out another doll. She has a cherubic face and stark black pigtails, and she’s besties with Jeremiah. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So Hoshiko is five. She’s from Japan. She’ll cause you to have, like, visions like in mirrors and things and she’ll like pop up. So I get the Samara from The Ring in the mirror trick every once in a while. Then she thinks it’s so funny because she likes, like, the reaction. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So Hoshiko is five. She’s from Japan. She’ll cause you to have, like, visions like in mirrors and things and she’ll like pop up. So I get the Samara from The Ring in the mirror trick every once in a while. Then she thinks it’s so funny because she likes, like, the reaction. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And lastly, Taylor points out Ciel. He’s in a black, pointed hat. Like a little witch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And lastly, Taylor points out Ciel. He’s in a black, pointed hat. Like a little witch. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And he is very wise, very gifted. He has given me dreams about things happening a year before they happen and then they come true. And he’s just kind of, he’s my guy. So yeah, those are my, my buddies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And he is very wise, very gifted. He has given me dreams about things happening a year before they happen and then they come true. And he’s just kind of, he’s my guy. So yeah, those are my, my buddies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> You may be skeptical of all this — but there were a couple of inexplicable incidents in the calls I had with Taylor. At some points, the entire video platform that we used flickered — not someone’s webcam, but the whole site. After the interview, our producer, Maya, said she heard low growling coming from Taylor’s side. When Taylor talked about her doll’s antics, I thought I heard faint giggling in the background. And there were chunks of our interview that our transcription software could not figure out. Instead, it spat out a jumble of German, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Brazilian, Portuguese, French, Danish, Korean, and a splash of Telugu. Was that Jeremiah messing with us? Although Maya and I were a little freaked out, Taylor seemed unfazed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> You may be skeptical of all this — but there were a couple of inexplicable incidents in the calls I had with Taylor. At some points, the entire video platform that we used flickered — not someone’s webcam, but the whole site. After the interview, our producer, Maya, said she heard low growling coming from Taylor’s side. When Taylor talked about her doll’s antics, I thought I heard faint giggling in the background. And there were chunks of our interview that our transcription software could not figure out. Instead, it spat out a jumble of German, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Brazilian, Portuguese, French, Danish, Korean, and a splash of Telugu. Was that Jeremiah messing with us? Although Maya and I were a little freaked out, Taylor seemed unfazed. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Everybody asks, like, “How are you safe living in a house with 120 haunted dolls? How are, how were you safe?” And the honest answer is like, they, they respect me because I respect them. I’m just nice to them. Like that’s really all it takes is just like basic kindness. Um, and I think that makes the paranormal a lot less scary when you realize that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Everybody asks, like, “How are you safe living in a house with 120 haunted dolls? How are, how were you safe?” And the honest answer is like, they, they respect me because I respect them. I’m just nice to them. Like that’s really all it takes is just like basic kindness. Um, and I think that makes the paranormal a lot less scary when you realize that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ghosts and the paranormal have been part of Taylor’s life for as long as she could remember. Her mother is a professional psychic. Her aunt is a paranormal investigator. Her grandmother would pull out the Ouija board whenever Taylor stayed over. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ghosts and the paranormal have been part of Taylor’s life for as long as she could remember. Her mother is a professional psychic. Her aunt is a paranormal investigator. Her grandmother would pull out the Ouija board whenever Taylor stayed over. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> My whole dad’s side of the family, even the ones who don’t want to or want anything to do with the paranormal, see ghosts for whatever reason. And so I just, I kind of grew up in this environment where, like, ghosts aren’t scary. They’re just like a thing, you know, like it’s just a fact of life, kind of attitude about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> My whole dad’s side of the family, even the ones who don’t want to or want anything to do with the paranormal, see ghosts for whatever reason. And so I just, I kind of grew up in this environment where, like, ghosts aren’t scary. They’re just like a thing, you know, like it’s just a fact of life, kind of attitude about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor and her husband bonded over the paranormal and fell in love with doll collecting together. They consider themselves spirit keepers — almost like afterlife caretakers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor and her husband bonded over the paranormal and fell in love with doll collecting together. They consider themselves spirit keepers — almost like afterlife caretakers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Some spirits legitimately did own their vessel when they were alive. They were attached to it in life and they’re still attached to, you know, like we have spirits whose vessel was like their comfort item as a kid kind of thing. I do have cases where it was like a spirit who was haunting a location and like the location was getting torn down and they were scared because they didn’t know what would happen to them if the location disappeared. They didn’t know if they would disappear, too. So they kind of found a different way out of necessity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Some spirits legitimately did own their vessel when they were alive. They were attached to it in life and they’re still attached to, you know, like we have spirits whose vessel was like their comfort item as a kid kind of thing. I do have cases where it was like a spirit who was haunting a location and like the location was getting torn down and they were scared because they didn’t know what would happen to them if the location disappeared. They didn’t know if they would disappear, too. So they kind of found a different way out of necessity. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Actually confirming a haunting can take months. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Actually confirming a haunting can take months. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> A lot of spirits will be very quiet and you will have no activity and then six months in at random, they’ll just kind of like pop off and because they’re comfortable with you now. The paranormal field is not a science, right? We don’t have a textbook that says, “This is how you investigate an object. This is how you investigate a location.” And so for us, what our method looks like — because that evidence component is really important to me — I do not feel comfortable saying something is haunted unless I know 100%. If I am 99% sure, I won’t even say, “Yes.” I have to be 100% sure. The other thing about paranormal activity is it’s not predictable. There is zero predictability. You can’t say turn the lights off and they turn the lights off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> A lot of spirits will be very quiet and you will have no activity and then six months in at random, they’ll just kind of like pop off and because they’re comfortable with you now. The paranormal field is not a science, right? We don’t have a textbook that says, “This is how you investigate an object. This is how you investigate a location.” And so for us, what our method looks like — because that evidence component is really important to me — I do not feel comfortable saying something is haunted unless I know 100%. If I am 99% sure, I won’t even say, “Yes.” I have to be 100% sure. The other thing about paranormal activity is it’s not predictable. There is zero predictability. You can’t say turn the lights off and they turn the lights off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to investigate whether a doll is haunted, Taylor first considers what she calls “subjective observations.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to investigate whether a doll is haunted, Taylor first considers what she calls “subjective observations.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Anything from, I saw that doll move to — I saw a ghost in my house to — I heard footsteps or I got a dream from — about this doll, but for me subjective reports are not enough for me to confirm something is haunted because the brain does crazy things. When people are scared and they are around something that they’re suspecting, the brain can do really crazy things to, you know, trick us. You have things like pareidolia, which is, we see faces in things. And so, people can take that as paranormal, but it’s really just your brain playing tricks on you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Anything from, I saw that doll move to — I saw a ghost in my house to — I heard footsteps or I got a dream from — about this doll, but for me subjective reports are not enough for me to confirm something is haunted because the brain does crazy things. When people are scared and they are around something that they’re suspecting, the brain can do really crazy things to, you know, trick us. You have things like pareidolia, which is, we see faces in things. And so, people can take that as paranormal, but it’s really just your brain playing tricks on you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So she tries to collect data: fluctuations in air temperature and air pressure, whether motion sensors are activated, and audio and video recordings. She looks for anomalies that she can document and compare against a control. And lastly, Taylor tries to make contact with whatever might be haunting the doll. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So she tries to collect data: fluctuations in air temperature and air pressure, whether motion sensors are activated, and audio and video recordings. She looks for anomalies that she can document and compare against a control. And lastly, Taylor tries to make contact with whatever might be haunting the doll. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So everybody communicates with spirit slightly differently. For me, the way that works best for me personally is a spirit box. What a spirit box is, is essentially, it is an intentionally broken radio, okay? So basically it rapidly sweeps through radio stations and they can manipulate the radio signals to be able to communicate with you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So everybody communicates with spirit slightly differently. For me, the way that works best for me personally is a spirit box. What a spirit box is, is essentially, it is an intentionally broken radio, okay? So basically it rapidly sweeps through radio stations and they can manipulate the radio signals to be able to communicate with you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She often posts spirit box sessions with her dolls. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She often posts spirit box sessions with her dolls. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So that’s something you’re still trying to understand about 2026? The men awful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So that’s something you’re still trying to understand about 2026? The men awful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did you hear, “The men awful?” Or did you hear a jumble of static? Skeptics say the audio fragments that are picked up by spirit boxes are random and that it’s confirmation bias and pareidolia that leads investigators to find meaning in the sounds. Taylor, however, says it’s more reliable than other methods. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did you hear, “The men awful?” Or did you hear a jumble of static? Skeptics say the audio fragments that are picked up by spirit boxes are random and that it’s confirmation bias and pareidolia that leads investigators to find meaning in the sounds. Taylor, however, says it’s more reliable than other methods. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> There are other tools like Pendulum and Ouija Board, for example, and those things your hands are involved. And for me, like my hands being involved in something, it doesn’t feel like quite as valid of evidence to me. So I really like Spirit Box because my hands are not involved in that. I can’t control what comes out of that box. I have no involvement in that so I like the personal removal from it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> There are other tools like Pendulum and Ouija Board, for example, and those things your hands are involved. And for me, like my hands being involved in something, it doesn’t feel like quite as valid of evidence to me. So I really like Spirit Box because my hands are not involved in that. I can’t control what comes out of that box. I have no involvement in that so I like the personal removal from it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the investigation is a bust. Taylor told me about this time her friends thought she bought a haunted doll. So she brought it over. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the investigation is a bust. Taylor told me about this time her friends thought she bought a haunted doll. So she brought it over. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Pulled out a spirit box and I’m like, “Hey, like if anybody’s there, like can we talk?” And I got nothing for a long time. You know, I’m like, “Maybe they’re shy.” So I keep asking questions. Nothing is happening. I’m like, “Okay.” Not even like a little bit — not even like a hesitation — nothing. And I’m looking at my friend and I am like, “We’re not getting anything.” And then the spirit box starts talking. And I am thinking, “Oh, maybe they finally decided to show up.” No. Um, it’s Omi, who’s down here in the blue, she’s hilarious. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Pulled out a spirit box and I’m like, “Hey, like if anybody’s there, like can we talk?” And I got nothing for a long time. You know, I’m like, “Maybe they’re shy.” So I keep asking questions. Nothing is happening. I’m like, “Okay.” Not even like a little bit — not even like a hesitation — nothing. And I’m looking at my friend and I am like, “We’re not getting anything.” And then the spirit box starts talking. And I am thinking, “Oh, maybe they finally decided to show up.” No. Um, it’s Omi, who’s down here in the blue, she’s hilarious. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed to a doll behind her. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed to a doll behind her. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And she comes on and she’s like, “There’s nothing there.” And I’m like, “It’s not haunted, is it?” And she’s, like, “No.” And I’m like, “Thanks!” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And she comes on and she’s like, “There’s nothing there.” And I’m like, “It’s not haunted, is it?” And she’s, like, “No.” And I’m like, “Thanks!” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Here’s the tea: the paranormal makes for really good content. This was a very niche hobby until a few years ago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Here’s the tea: the paranormal makes for really good content. This was a very niche hobby until a few years ago. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So, in my opinion, I think the COVID pandemic just shot haunted doll sales up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So, in my opinion, I think the COVID pandemic just shot haunted doll sales up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is around the same time “witchtok” took off — the corner of TikTok dedicated to modern witchcraft. Videos of spell jar recipes, algorithmically recommended tarot readings, and ghost hunting all overlapped with the same audience. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is around the same time “witchtok” took off — the corner of TikTok dedicated to modern witchcraft. Videos of spell jar recipes, algorithmically recommended tarot readings, and ghost hunting all overlapped with the same audience. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And I think that is largely due to the fact that people were home and they were bored out of their mind and they were looking for something to do. And I think a lot of people were also doom scrolling at that time. Everybody was sitting on TikTok and YouTube all day long watching videos and so people had haunted dolls or making more videos about their haunted dolls than usual because they’re at home all day with them and it was just a perfect storm for like a lot more people who like were not involved in the paranormal or anything to just kind of like decide to try something different. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And I think that is largely due to the fact that people were home and they were bored out of their mind and they were looking for something to do. And I think a lot of people were also doom scrolling at that time. Everybody was sitting on TikTok and YouTube all day long watching videos and so people had haunted dolls or making more videos about their haunted dolls than usual because they’re at home all day with them and it was just a perfect storm for like a lot more people who like were not involved in the paranormal or anything to just kind of like decide to try something different. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The more sensational the paranormal content, the better it did online. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The more sensational the paranormal content, the better it did online. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And one of the party tricks that I see a lot is with EMF meters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And one of the party tricks that I see a lot is with EMF meters. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These are handheld devices that detect and measure electromagnetic activity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These are handheld devices that detect and measure electromagnetic activity. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They are not ghost metal detectors. Everybody just sees the EMF spike and they assume, “Oh, that’s a ghost,” but they don’t think about all of the other things that set off an EMF meter. Well, we’re in 2026. We have smartwatches that are setting off EMF meters, Wi-Fi, your cell phone — those things are set off by any form of electricity and all of our houses and all these locations are full of electricity, right? But a lot of people will, you know, share proof that their doll is haunted by essentially putting their phone right up to a doll that has an EMF meter on its lap and the EMF is going off and it’s hitting red and everybody’s forgetting that the phone that they’re filming that video on is what is triggering it. So when I see an account where the whole page is just EMF up to a cell phone and nothing else, I’m suspicious. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They are not ghost metal detectors. Everybody just sees the EMF spike and they assume, “Oh, that’s a ghost,” but they don’t think about all of the other things that set off an EMF meter. Well, we’re in 2026. We have smartwatches that are setting off EMF meters, Wi-Fi, your cell phone — those things are set off by any form of electricity and all of our houses and all these locations are full of electricity, right? But a lot of people will, you know, share proof that their doll is haunted by essentially putting their phone right up to a doll that has an EMF meter on its lap and the EMF is going off and it’s hitting red and everybody’s forgetting that the phone that they’re filming that video on is what is triggering it. So when I see an account where the whole page is just EMF up to a cell phone and nothing else, I’m suspicious. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> By becoming so trendy, Taylor says the paranormal community has become less about making contact with the other side and more about making content out of it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> By becoming so trendy, Taylor says the paranormal community has become less about making contact with the other side and more about making content out of it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I think it’s social media and it’s not just haunted dolls, it’s the whole overall paranormal community. You know, the people that are into the paranormal will chase it to the end of the earth. I mean, some of these locations will charge you, you know, hundreds, thousands of dollars to go investigate there for the night. It’s extremely lucrative. Investigators are seeking evidence. They are interested, obviously. But there’s also, I think, the social media pressure. Content creators, especially, it’s like they, you know, want to — to get content out and they want to keep going so they have to go to more haunted locations and you know, have to have more experiences, because they’re sharing the experiences with the public and people are expecting to see it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I think it’s social media and it’s not just haunted dolls, it’s the whole overall paranormal community. You know, the people that are into the paranormal will chase it to the end of the earth. I mean, some of these locations will charge you, you know, hundreds, thousands of dollars to go investigate there for the night. It’s extremely lucrative. Investigators are seeking evidence. They are interested, obviously. But there’s also, I think, the social media pressure. Content creators, especially, it’s like they, you know, want to — to get content out and they want to keep going so they have to go to more haunted locations and you know, have to have more experiences, because they’re sharing the experiences with the public and people are expecting to see it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And as this genre of content took off, the market for haunted objects suddenly became very lucrative. EBay, Etsy, and Facebook Marketplace technically do allow for sales of haunted or occult objects, as long as the listing includes a disclaimer that it’s for entertainment purposes only. But that disclaimer also means that you can get away with anything. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And as this genre of content took off, the market for haunted objects suddenly became very lucrative. EBay, Etsy, and Facebook Marketplace technically do allow for sales of haunted or occult objects, as long as the listing includes a disclaimer that it’s for entertainment purposes only. But that disclaimer also means that you can get away with anything. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> People want to have a paranormal experience. People are interested in that now. It didn’t used to be. Everybody didn’t wanna have a paranormal experience before, but now it’s like, people are chasing an experience. So people have learned — there are people who will pay anything to get to have this happen. I think that people have caught on to that. It’s trendy right now, it’s in right now and everybody’s looking for a time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> People want to have a paranormal experience. People are interested in that now. It didn’t used to be. Everybody didn’t wanna have a paranormal experience before, but now it’s like, people are chasing an experience. So people have learned — there are people who will pay anything to get to have this happen. I think that people have caught on to that. It’s trendy right now, it’s in right now and everybody’s looking for a time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, people have learned like, okay, before I could go to like, buy one of those empty storage lockers and I could sell everything for $10 a piece, whatever, but if the haunted doll people pay 200 bucks for that, that’s what I’m going to charge. Um, and the fact of the matter is, when people buy it, people will sell it because there’s a demand for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, people have learned like, okay, before I could go to like, buy one of those empty storage lockers and I could sell everything for $10 a piece, whatever, but if the haunted doll people pay 200 bucks for that, that’s what I’m going to charge. Um, and the fact of the matter is, when people buy it, people will sell it because there’s a demand for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like the dybbuk box that duped countless people 20 years ago, many of these listings have elaborate descriptions recounting tales of supernatural, otherworldly encounters. And dolls, especially, can go for way more than what they’re typically worth if they’re labeled “haunted.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like the dybbuk box that duped countless people 20 years ago, many of these listings have elaborate descriptions recounting tales of supernatural, otherworldly encounters. And dolls, especially, can go for way more than what they’re typically worth if they’re labeled “haunted.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I mean, I’ve seen in the thousands, multiple times. I always tell people the higher the price doesn’t mean that it’s more haunted than the ones that are a lower price. Like, a spirit is a spirit. There’s no such thing as like, this spirit is more spirity than this other spirit. My rule of thumb that I always tell people is like, “You can’t put a price on the paranormal,” right? Paranormal experiences are not guaranteed. Paranormal experiences are not scientific fact. So for me, ethically, I believe that the object should be priced similarly to the price that their vessel or their doll is worth. So if you have a doll that is like a collector’s item and worth $300 — yeah, list it for $300. If you have a doll that’s worth $50, list it for $50. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I mean, I’ve seen in the thousands, multiple times. I always tell people the higher the price doesn’t mean that it’s more haunted than the ones that are a lower price. Like, a spirit is a spirit. There’s no such thing as like, this spirit is more spirity than this other spirit. My rule of thumb that I always tell people is like, “You can’t put a price on the paranormal,” right? Paranormal experiences are not guaranteed. Paranormal experiences are not scientific fact. So for me, ethically, I believe that the object should be priced similarly to the price that their vessel or their doll is worth. So if you have a doll that is like a collector’s item and worth $300 — yeah, list it for $300. If you have a doll that’s worth $50, list it for $50. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The dybbuk box eBay listing was such a novelty at the time. Now, haunted doll listings are a dime a dozen. On eBay today, I scrolled through listings for haunted dolls, haunted clip-on earrings, haunted keys, haunted cargo pants, haunted labubus and — not joking — a quote, haunted by curious dybbuk box. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The dybbuk box eBay listing was such a novelty at the time. Now, haunted doll listings are a dime a dozen. On eBay today, I scrolled through listings for haunted dolls, haunted clip-on earrings, haunted keys, haunted cargo pants, haunted labubus and — not joking — a quote, haunted by curious dybbuk box. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I am not cut out for the haunted doll life, but if you were to buy one, how are you supposed to sift through all the haunted scams? Taylor actually makes haunted doll guides and recently started focusing more on creating seller checklists so her followers can vet listings for themselves. She’s wary of any seller that makes content of EMF readings. She’s also suspicious of large-scale listings. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I am not cut out for the haunted doll life, but if you were to buy one, how are you supposed to sift through all the haunted scams? Taylor actually makes haunted doll guides and recently started focusing more on creating seller checklists so her followers can vet listings for themselves. She’s wary of any seller that makes content of EMF readings. She’s also suspicious of large-scale listings. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> You go on their page and they have a hundred Haunted Dolls listed and nearly all of them have the same story. I mean, spirits are — they’re people and every person is different. So how do you have a 100 spirits who all are the same person basically with a different name and like slightly changed details? So that’s a red flag. The other thing is if the facts don’t line up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> You go on their page and they have a hundred Haunted Dolls listed and nearly all of them have the same story. I mean, spirits are — they’re people and every person is different. So how do you have a 100 spirits who all are the same person basically with a different name and like slightly changed details? So that’s a red flag. The other thing is if the facts don’t line up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I have seen — this happens a lot. This is a big one. The story will say, “Oh, this doll is haunted by so-and-so and so-and-so owned this doll when they were alive and it was very meaningful to them, so they chose to keep it with them in the afterlife.” And you source the year on the vessel, and the vessel — the doll itself — was made in 1980. It says that the spirit is from the 1800s. That’s impossible. They couldn’t have owned the doll in the 1800s when the doll was made in the 1980s. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I have seen — this happens a lot. This is a big one. The story will say, “Oh, this doll is haunted by so-and-so and so-and-so owned this doll when they were alive and it was very meaningful to them, so they chose to keep it with them in the afterlife.” And you source the year on the vessel, and the vessel — the doll itself — was made in 1980. It says that the spirit is from the 1800s. That’s impossible. They couldn’t have owned the doll in the 1800s when the doll was made in the 1980s. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok is full of complaints and warnings of haunted scams. This is especially frustrating to Taylor, who really sees spirit keeping as a lifelong commitment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok is full of complaints and warnings of haunted scams. This is especially frustrating to Taylor, who really sees spirit keeping as a lifelong commitment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Seeing people repeatedly getting things that are fake. One, obviously it’s a waste of money. I mean, obviously that’s irritating. Financial scamming is no joke and pisses me off. But it goes beyond that into, you know, those are people that could give an actual spirit a really nice place to live. And getting scammed over and over again chases them away from this hobby. I may be able to change, you know, the quality of afterlife for the spirits in my home. I can help a finite number of spirits, but I can help a lot more spirits if I can teach other people to do what I’m doing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Seeing people repeatedly getting things that are fake. One, obviously it’s a waste of money. I mean, obviously that’s irritating. Financial scamming is no joke and pisses me off. But it goes beyond that into, you know, those are people that could give an actual spirit a really nice place to live. And getting scammed over and over again chases them away from this hobby. I may be able to change, you know, the quality of afterlife for the spirits in my home. I can help a finite number of spirits, but I can help a lot more spirits if I can teach other people to do what I’m doing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m still not sure what my relationship to the paranormal is. I want objective evidence. Data. A clear, unequivocal answer that explains why things are the way that they are. But throughout the interview, I kept catching glimpses of Jeremiah over Taylor’s shoulder with his fluffy teddy bear ears and little legs dangling over the edge of the shelf. And when Taylor talked about taking care of spirits in the afterlife, I swear, I saw him perk up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m still not sure what my relationship to the paranormal is. I want objective evidence. Data. A clear, unequivocal answer that explains why things are the way that they are. But throughout the interview, I kept catching glimpses of Jeremiah over Taylor’s shoulder with his fluffy teddy bear ears and little legs dangling over the edge of the shelf. And when Taylor talked about taking care of spirits in the afterlife, I swear, I saw him perk up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s it for Close All Tabs’ special spooky storytime. We’ll have a fresh deep dive for you next week, but if you’re dying to open more tabs about the tales we told today, check out the episode description for some suggested reading. Or stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s it for Close All Tabs’ special spooky storytime. We’ll have a fresh deep dive for you next week, but if you’re dying to open more tabs about the tales we told today, check out the episode description for some suggested reading. Or stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. It was engineered by Brendan Willard and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production support by Cayla Mihalovich. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. It was engineered by Brendan Willard and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production support by Cayla Mihalovich. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Hallie Tut, Ted Hegemann, Craig Groshek, Rena Lee, and Paranormal Teej for sharing their stories with us. This episode includes clips and archive tape from Hallie Tut, Eli Unique, Paranomal Teej, and Villains Wiki.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Hallie Tut, Ted Hegemann, Craig Groshek, Rena Lee, and Paranormal Teej for sharing their stories with us. This episode includes clips and archive tape from Hallie Tut, Eli Unique, Paranomal Teej, and Villains Wiki.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Apple Maker Hi-75 keyboard with Foggered in Red Samurai keycaps and Gator on Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Apple Maker Hi-75 keyboard with Foggered in Red Samurai keycaps and Gator on Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So when it comes to buying and selling, they don’t really care about the concept of it. Their primary focus is always like, “Am I going somewhere where somebody is going to be nice to me or not?” That’s what they care about — is like, “Am I going to a good home?” But the one thing I know they don’t like is the shipping. They don’t like shipping. I hear complaints about shipping all the time. So. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So when it comes to buying and selling, they don’t really care about the concept of it. Their primary focus is always like, “Am I going somewhere where somebody is going to be nice to me or not?” That’s what they care about — is like, “Am I going to a good home?” But the one thing I know they don’t like is the shipping. They don’t like shipping. I hear complaints about shipping all the time. So. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, yeah, you can’t, you, can’t yeah, kind of out of your control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, yeah, you can’t, you, can’t yeah, kind of out of your control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I’m like, “Sorry.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this special Halloween edition of Close All Tabs, we’re diving into creepypastas: horror stories that spread online until they become urban legends on their own. What happened to the girl who fell into a mirror in 2001? Did Ted the Caver ever come back to the surface? Was the Momo challenge real? And finally, we venture into eBay’s haunted doll marketplace … where we may have ended up with a spirit wreaking havoc on the production of this episode. It’s a ghoulish good time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@hallietut\">Hallie Tut\u003c/a>, visual effects artist, and digital content creator\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@chillingtalesfordarknights\">Craig Groshek\u003c/a>, horror author and founder of \u003cem>Chilling Tales for Dark Nights\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://tedthecaverfan.com\">Ted Hegemann\u003c/a>, author of “Ted the Caver”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Rena Lee, social media manager\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophia-bruno-846358286/\">Sophia Bruno\u003c/a>, educational nonprofit coordinator\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@paranormalteej\">Paranormal Teej\u003c/a>, haunted doll collector & paranormal investigator\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlaXgi-Jpdo\">How She Creates VFX Shots That Break Your Brain\u003c/a> — Hallie Tut, \u003cem>Youtube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://tedthecaverfan.com\">Ted the Caver\u003c/a> — Ted Hegemann\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Momo_(Creepypasta)#:~:text=%E2%80%9C-,Momo,-%2C%20Momo%2C%20Momo%20is\">Momo (Creepypasta)\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Villains Wiki\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://medium.com/@LanceUlanoff/momo-challenge-is-everything-thats-wrong-with-the-internet-4d1a5679c1ed\">Momo Challenge Is Everything That’s Wrong with the Internet\u003c/a> — Lance Ulanoff, \u003cem>Medium\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://yokai.com/ubume/?srsltid=AU7gw4UWwYuhjk8jv7LUe8ip4Sjmbw0bTmlbqoJ6kyNNEwWAjC7IZCV5\">Ubume\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Yokai.com\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/how-momo-global-social-media-hoax-about-paranormal-threat-kids-n977961\">How ‘Momo’, a global social media hoax about a paranormal threat to kids, morphed into a U.S. viral phenomenon\u003c/a> — Ben Collins and Shoshana Wodinsky, \u003cem>NBC News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.inverse.com/input/features/dybbuk-box-dibbuk-kevin-mannis-zak-bagans-haunted-hoax-revealed\">Finally, the truth behind the ‘haunted’ Dybbuk Box can be revealed\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Inverse\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/work/careers/a34322508/the-witches-of-ebay-industry-selling-haunted-item/\">The witches of eBay: Inside the industry selling haunted items online\u003c/a> — Daniella Scott, \u003cem>Cosmopolitan\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/62125/1/a24-youngest-ever-director-kane-parsons-the-backrooms-creepypasta-into-cinema\">The Backrooms: How Kane Parsons turned creepypasta into cinema\u003c/a> — Jack Mills, \u003cem>Dazed\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2026/05/what-is-backrooms-movie-original-explained-4chan-creepypasta-horror-internet.html\">The Eerie Backstory Behind Backrooms\u003c/a> — Nadira Goffe, \u003cem>Slate\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/revisiting-creepypasta-the-social-horror-craze-that-launched-slenderman/\">Revisiting Creepypasta, the Social Horror Craze That Launched Slenderman\u003c/a> — Zac Thompson, \u003cem>VICE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Happy spooky season tabbies. Is there a creepypasta you can’t stop thinking about? Or any internet trend, tech subculture, or online oddity keeping you up at night? Well, now you can ask Close All Tabs to investigate! Go to \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">KQED.org/podcasts/closealltabs\u003c/a> to submit your question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Just a note, this episode contains mentions of suicide and horror themes so listen with care — or skip this one and come back next week. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Let me tell you a story about one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I was in middle school, hanging out in a family friend’s basement with a bunch of other kids, when my friend’s older brother asked us if we wanted to see something. We crowded around his laptop where he pulled up a YouTube video, titled “Entry #1.” It was just a few seconds of shaky footage, shot through a window from inside a house, of a lanky, suited figure lurking near the door. No sound…which made it feel more unsettling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My friend’s brother told us that some guy online found all of these videos in his friend’s camera and started posting them to YouTube. He hit play on the next one. This had sound — some guy talking while he drove down a dark street. Not much is visible in this video…except the blurry silhouette of that same lanky figure, looming in the distance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Marble Hornets:\u003c/strong> I saw this really tall guy stand in the middle of the street, just completely still. For whatever reason, this really set off Rocky, and he got really scared. He wouldn’t move and he kept on pulling on his leash to go back home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back then, everything on the internet seemed real. My friends and I took all of it at face value. So we believed the YouTube comments that said they’d seen this figure too. My friend’s brother left, but the rest of us were totally hooked. So we hit play on another video. This was more shaky footage, again shot through a window from inside a house. The same figure was lurking, closer this time. The camera finally focused on an unnaturally pale, bald head. It had no face at all, just smooth white skin and hollow contours where eyes and a mouth and a nose should be. And then it turned to face the viewer, as if it was honing in on us. Then, my friend’s brother, from the top of the stairs, called out, “Who wants to meet Slenderman?” And shut off the basement lights. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The legend of Slenderman started in 2009, when someone posted black and white photos of children on a playground, seemingly oblivious to the spindly creature looming over them. The captions alluded to a string of child abductions from the 1980s. It was a submission for a Photoshop contest of paranormal happenings, which later inspired the YouTube series, Marble Hornets. That was the supposedly found footage that we watched in my friend’s basement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I totally fell for it. For a good year after, I was terrified to look through windows at night in case Slenderman was peering back in. That was my first experience with a creepypasta. The word “creepypasta” is a play on “copypasta” — which is a portmanteau of “copy-paste.” They’re blocks of text that become memes because they’re copied and reposted so often. Creepypastas are online urban legends, Horror stories that start on forums and comment sections that spread across the internet and take on lives of their own. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome to Cursed All Tabs. This is our very special Halloween episode, where, instead of one deep dive, we have a bunch of spooky stories for you. These are tales of the paranormal kept alive on the internet. A girl stuck in a portal, caving gone wrong, an entity that might get you through the screen, and the eBay listings for haunted dolls. So, gather around our digital campfire and if you’re easily scared, don’t listen in the dark. Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is Cursed All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung — tech journalist and your chronically online nightmare — here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s open our first tab and get into our first spooky story: “The girl in the mirror.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Picture this: It’s the middle of the night. You can’t sleep. You’re doom-scrolling. It’s way past your bedtime and you’ve been awake for a little too long. So, in the darkness of your room, shadows start to take on the shape of strange figures. You catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror, barely visible in the moonlight, and for a second, it seems like the room and the reflection is deeper. Like it goes on forever. And then…mid-scroll, you come across this video. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> There’s something really strange going on here, and if something ends up happening to me, I just hope that this video can maybe explain it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s a video of a teenager recording herself on an old-school, hand-held camcorder. The caption says it’s found footage dating back to January 2001. The camera sweeps across her bedroom — a matching set of yellow furniture, frilly curtains, pink walls, very 90s — and settles on an antique mirror propped up on a chair. It faces another full-length mirror mounted to the wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Okay, so I have these two mirrors in my room. As you can see, they’re pretty normal looking mirrors, but I was cleaning and I had them kind of set up like this, and I noticed something really weird. Just watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The girl places the camcorder on the bed and films herself putting her hand on one of the mirrors, but she passes straight through the glass into another world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> See, when you look through the mirror into the other one, it becomes like a window. And there’s this huge warehouse, grocery store, or something down there. But wait, it gets even crazier. Watch this. Three, two, one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She fully jumps through the mirror and is transported into what looks like a fully stocked supermarket. But the aisles go on forever and there’s nobody else in sight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Woah. What the hell? What is this place? Hello? How far does it go? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She begins running, and then… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Oh shit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The camcorder zaps back to her room mid-air before bouncing onto her frilly white bed. It faces another mirror and in the reflection, the room looks empty. The girl is nowhere to be seen. You’re thoroughly creeped out so you start scouring the comments. Legend has it…she’s still missing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from ItsNickHoliday:\u003c/strong> A video a girl recorded in her bedroom in 2001, right before she went missing, has resurfaced and now is going viral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Generalist Authority:\u003c/strong> The camera was later found on her bed. She has not been located. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from brookesobasic:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if people know this or not, but facing two mirrors together is something you just shouldn’t do. And it’s said to open portals or bring in really bad energies or spirits — sometimes good — but usually bad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So what happened to this girl who fell through a mirror over 20 years ago and was never heard from again? What is it about that abandoned, endless supermarket that feels both so familiar and so unsettling? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it — it just really is something where you don’t normally stay very long in a place like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Hallie Tutte, a VFX artist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Liminal spaces are kind of these transitional places where usually it would be somewhere that’s filled of people going from point A to point B when a place that usually is filled with people is now completely empty — that gives it that eerie feeling because you never usually are used to seeing it completely abandoned like that. So if you got trapped there, it just brings out this strange feeling in you, I think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Halle is the real girl in the video. And don’t worry, she did not get stuck in the portal despite what some internet conspiracy theorists might think. She’s always been fascinated by liminal horror — stories that take place in vacant, in-between spaces, like the internet lore that inspired the movie Backrooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I grew up in a town that didn’t have a lot of people in it, and there’d be like these old shopping malls where no one would be around and all the stores are gone. And I always just loved the feeling of being in those spaces, like empty food courts. Me and my friends would just like to kind of hang out there. And I guess when I got into 3D modeling, it was a really fun way to get to build that feeling again by creating those spaces. And it’s something that’s really easy to accomplish in 3D and make it feel very real, very quickly because it’s just a lot of walls and lights and rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that video wasn’t filmed in 2001, but actually made in 2023. Hallie was inspired by found footage movies like The Blair Witch Project. She wanted to create something that felt like it was from the early 2000s, but using modern equipment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I shot it completely by myself in my room and it was actually shot on a Sony camera on a tripod and then any of the handheld stuff is all fake. The mirror that she’s shooting into is fake and to create that infinite Walmart effect, I went to my local Walmart late at night when it feels like a liminal space and I was able to kind of scan all of the shelves and create these 3D models that I then brought into, like a software like Blender, and created this infinite world with it. And yeah, it’s shot in my real bedroom. I live with my grandparents, so this used to be my aunt’s room. And everything in it feels very of the time period that I was trying to make that video set in, so it worked out really well that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The video got a lot of views when she first posted it, but didn’t really go viral until a year later, when other influencers reposted it, speculating about what really happened to the girl in the mirror. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> Even one of my art school teachers had sent me a link on Facebook to like a conspiracy channel where he’d seen it and asking if it was me. And that video had maybe 3 million views and thousands of comments, people’s discourse about whether it was real. Having remembered seeing this video from when they were younger, like in the early 2000s, people had made up like memories of it. Like kind of that Mandela effect was happening where people had — had this memory of knowing this story of this girl who went missing years prior to when I posted the video. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So it was — it was just going all over the place online and I kind of started to go down a rabbit hole of Reddit posts about it and different names they were making up for the girl in the video. Like in one spot her name was Violet and the video was titled “Violet’s Playtime” or something strange like that. And then people were kind of using that name to discuss it in different forums. So just gets it away from you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This year, Hallie posted a video explaining that she was the creator of the video and that none of it was real. Even then, the conspiracies continued to spread. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> When I made the video talking about how it was fake and I explained how I had made it and how viral it had went around the internet, but trying to claim that, in fact, it was me in my room by myself and I’m here and I am alive — a lot of people in those comments were saying, “The government made her do this,” or “She’s AI and this is a cover up — like this is the CIA cover up for this girl who’s still missing. She’s just — this is just a plant. This girl trying to pretend she’s the girl so they can keep hiding this conspiracy from us.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s wild how drastically the internet has changed since 2023. AI videos back then were nowhere near as convincing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think it would be a lot harder now with AI and even just the VFX work that was put into that. I don’t know if it would feel worth it anymore because of the way that people would just write it off. That video was definitely a labor of love for the technical challenges that I had to go through to make it look realistic and I think people now just won’t appreciate the craft that goes into something like that because they’ll just write it all off as AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, I don’t know if I’d ever do one quite in the same way. I think if I had a really good story that I wanted to tell, and it was more based on just a really horror story, I might try again. But in a way that was more of a fun technical challenge for me to make it convincing. And in today’s day and age. That’s no longer really a worthy challenge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s so depressing. Have we killed creepypastas with AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> I think creepypastes will live on, especially the more fictional stories that can’t be real things but that people really wish were real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Hallie herself is still making creepy horror content, pushing herself with new technical challenges and VFX tools. But the story she put out into the world three years ago continues to spread and morph beyond what she ever created. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Hallie Tut:\u003c/strong> It is essentially a creepypasta now, and the creepypasta might be well known by people, but it’s never going to really come back to me, which I kind of appreciate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> If, during the witching hour, you place two mirrors facing each other, you might open a ghostly passage. Legend has it that, if you look long enough, the infinite reflections will dissolve into all sorts of in-between places — sprawling underground train stations, sterile hospital waiting rooms, school hallways lined with pristine lockers. They will almost always be eerily empty, as if time comes to a standstill there. And sometimes, you might catch a glimpse of a cavernous, eternal supermarket — and the pink-haired teenager doomed to wander its empty aisles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That story was brought to us by producer Maya Cueva. Unsettled yet? Well, we’re just getting started. The next internet scary story we have for you is actually the one that started it all. It’s known as the very first creepypasta, dating back to 2001. This tale comes from our very own senior editor, Chris Egusa. You might wanna turn on the lights for this one. Okay, let’s open a new tab. Who is Ted the Caver? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> In early 2001, a series of posts started appearing on an obscure Angelfire website, a site-building platform from the early internet. The page was bare bones. Basic HTML, a black background, and at the top, a salmon-colored title: “Welcome to the Page of Ted.” The posts were journal entries. The author? Anonymous, except for that first name: Ted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Over the course of a few months, Ted posted a detailed account of a series of caving trips he took with a friend he identified only as “B,” to explore a previously unentered passage in a spot they called “Mystery Cave.” According to the first entry, the pair had found a hole in the rock wall deep inside the cave. It was only four to five inches across, but they knew it had to lead somewhere because of a steady stream of air that blew through it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The first journal entry included a link to a grainy photo of the hole. It was uneven in shape, and the rock it went through looked several inches thick. There was a glove tucked inside the hole for scale. The entry went on. Peeking through the hole with a mini maglite, they could see a tight tunnel that opened up after a few feet. They could feel the air blowing past, and they could hear something else: a low rumbling that came and went. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ted and B brushed aside the strange details. They were too excited at the prospect of finding their way into a completely unexplored passage. So they made a plan: come back with hand tools and a cordless drill, break up the solid rock, and widen the hole until it was big enough to squeeze through. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ted named the passage Floyd’s Tomb, as a nod to Floyd Collins — an early 20th century cave explorer who got trapped and died as he attempted to enlarge a small tunnel in a cave system in Kentucky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Every few weeks through early 2001, a new post would appear on the website. They detailed the slow, grueling work of drilling and chiseling through rock until the batteries on their lights and tools ran out. Since the cave was a good distance from where they lived, Ted and B would stay at a nearby motel, recharge their batteries and bodies, and continue working the next day before heading home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Occasionally, Ted would mention some odd detail. Something unsettling. In one post, he described the wind as getting louder, a howl at that point. The rumbling had become more frequent, and he noted that it seemed to be emanating from deeper in the cave. Then he’d move on, refocusing on the task at hand. Each post linked more photos, documenting the progression of the hole. And as the entries went on, the details got stranger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On a trip in February, they brought B’s Jack Russell Terrier into the cave. Typically excitable and enthusiastic, she became edgy and began to whimper as she approached the hole. Her hair stood on end and she refused to get any closer. Later that same trip, B heard a scratching, grinding sound coming from inside the hole. When he got Ted’s attention to listen, it stopped. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On another trip in early March, Ted was kneeling at the wall, drilling — ear plugs in and safety glasses on. Over the noise of the drill, he heard a high-pitched sound. He pulled his earplug out just in time to hear an ear-piercing scream coming from inside the hole, echoing through the darkness. In his journal, he described it as a cross between a man screaming in fear and a cougar screaming in pain. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The next day, the two couldn’t stop thinking about the sound. But they rationalized it as some kind of animal and decided to continue on, focused on getting to the other side. They’d come too far to give up. In the next entry, Ted explained that they’d widened the hole enough to squeeze through. It was so tight that Ted had to turn his head to the side and wedge himself in with his arms pinned at his sides. As he went further, he could feel the rock pressing into his back. The only way forward was to exhale all of his breath and push with his feet. So that’s what he did. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Exhale. Scoot an inch or two. Breathe in shallowly. Exhale again. Scoot further. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The photo linked in that entry showed Ted wedged into the crevice wearing a black bandana, head cocked to the right. The flash lit up jagged rocks littering the floor beneath him. Then the passage began to open up. Ted was able to crawl forward, emerging for the first time into the untouched cavern. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The entries kept coming. And, without spoiling the rest of the story, things escalated from there. Ted found strange hieroglyphic markings on the cave wall, an unnaturally round rock that seemed to be moving on its own. A smell he described as damp, rotting, rancid, putrid, death, drifting up from deeper in the cave. Then, in the deepest section of the tunnel, he encountered something. Something that seemed to follow him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The last entry on the site was from Ted, writing the morning of his final trip into the cave. By then, he was badly shaken and suffering from lucid nightmares. He was determined to figure out what was going on, once and for all. And then, the entries stopped. Even years later, nothing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the Angelfire site stayed up, preserving Ted’s story. The collection of entries — nine in total, clocking in at over 25,000 words — is now known as Ted the Caver, and many consider it to be the very first creepypasta. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> At the time when I first read it, there was nothing like it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig Groshek is a horror author who runs Chilling Tales for Dark Nights, a company and YouTube channel devoted to creepypasta, along with several podcasts. He first came across Ted the Caver in high school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> You’re just surfing the internet and all of a sudden you come across this poor guy, you know, getting trapped with unspeakable horrors in the underground. And the story very much leaves you feeling that you don’t know what happened to him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> At the center of a lot of the online discussion was one question — was it real? The story had all these supernatural elements, but it also felt believable. The gear, the technical descriptions of caving, the photos. It read like a real caving journal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> Just when you thought there’s a chance that this was baloney, he threw up a photo. Critical thinking aside, that inclusion of photos drew you right back in, and it made everything that came after it even scarier. And of course we were experiencing this in real time. If you were there when it happened, this wasn’t a story you picked up years later. This was a man this was actually happening to, and you couldn’t do anything about it. It was like watching someone sleepwalk into traffic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But you couldn’t ask Ted. For years, no one could confirm who he was, or whether his name was even Ted. Authorship of the story was disputed, with several people taking credit. Eventually, the real Ted emerged and began posting intermittently on some online forums. In 2015, Craig decided to track him down in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> All I had to go on was the original post and some forums on the internet where he had appeared. And the way I found him was via reverse image search. He used the same picture, I believe he was standing on train tracks, maybe with his dog, and it was the same pictures of him on every forum that he used. I tracked him down to a disc golf course. I had the guy at the country club there, because they have a golf course and a disc golf and I had them hand Ted my information on a cocktail napkin. And the next thing you know, Ted’s calling me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig commissioned Ted to write an original horror story for an anthology he was putting together. It was only the second horror story Ted had ever written. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name is Ted Hegemann. I am the author of the story that is now known as “Ted the Caver.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> His story about the terrors lurking in Mystery Cave was his first. Ted is now 62 and lives in Utah. These days, he spends his free time playing disc golf. It’s the latest in a string of obsessions. 25 years ago, he was obsessed with caving. And, as it turns out, a lot of the story is based on real experiences. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> So, my buddy, Brad and I — who is B in the story — we went out to this cave that’s right on the border of Utah and Nevada. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Ted and Brad really did open up an entrance to a new passage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It took us numerous trips, I think eight trips before I was able to get past the opening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The squeeze through Floyd’s tomb? Ted says it happened just how he wrote it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was literally exhaling my lungs and scooting with my feet, with my arms down to my side to keep my shoulders down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Technically, he did the squeeze twice. By the second time, they had opened the passage up a little wider, and he was able to fit through with slightly more ease. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I was keeping a journal the entire time — a caving journal — as well as updating friends and family, you know, as to the progress. It was kind of a neat thing. And when we were done, I thought rather than telling everyone about it, I’ll just upload my journal on a — find a website — and put it up. And then I had the idea that it’d be kind of fun to embellish a little bit. And so that’s where the story came from. So much of it is just directly out of my caving journal. And then the creepy parts were invented, of course. But the idea didn’t come until after we had gone into the cave. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> A lot of the eerie details were rooted in his actual experience, too. Like the air blowing through the hole. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We knew about the hole because we would stop there, because the wind blew out and you generally worked up a little bit of a sweat getting to that point in the cave. So we would stop and just let the cool air cool us off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And the low rumbling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> We figured it was I-80 — just trucks or whatever — because it wasn’t constant. It was just every once in a while. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> And they really brought a Jack Russell terrier into the cave. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> Demon dog, oh my goodness, it nipped at me so many times. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> But the part about it whimpering and refusing to go near the hole, that was embellished. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It was having a good time running around exploring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> I asked Ted at what point the story became complete fiction. I’m thinking of — there’s the terrifying scream that you both hear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> The scream. The grinding noise that we would hear inside, the smell when I went in there, and the round rock. There was no round rock, sadly. Oh, and the little hieroglyph thing that was in there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> It took Ted almost a year to write the whole thing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> And at one point, I gave up on it. I thought, “Oh, this is dumb. Who’s going to want to read this?” But then I sucked it up and thought, “Yeah, at least finish it. And then who cares? You know, if nothing happens.” But yeah, little did I know. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> He posted it, one update at a time, through the spring of 2001, and he knew the story had attracted a decent readership. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I did have a hidden counter on there and got up into the tens of thousands of views. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> The story simmered underground, making its way through different communities, but never going viral the way things might today. And then, a few years after he posted the story, someone sent him a link to a caving forum where it was being discussed. After that, he started digging around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> That was one of the cooler weekends of my life. I remember our internet was really slow. So I went to the library and I just kept searching and found all these forums where they’re talking about it. And it just blew me away. How many people liked it. So many people said it scared them to death in very colorful ways. It was just so fun to know that that people were reading it and enjoying it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> For Ted, who’s not even a big horror fan, the fact that this story he posted 25 years ago keeps coming up is a lasting source of enjoyment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> I just discovered this like last year. I started Googling and I found all of these YouTube channels where they talk about the story. They’ll read it and then give their thoughts about it. And I mean, one of them had three million views. It just kind of blew me away. I think it’s just a blast. I love it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> So is Ted the Caver the first creepypasta? As with most things on the internet, it’s hard to pinpoint. The term creepypasta itself came into use years later. And some people point to the genre’s similarities to chain emails from the 90s, which pre-date Ted’s story. But Craig Groshek says Ted the Caver certainly has a claim to the title. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> If you’re looking at the Mount Rushmore of creepypasta, of internet-based horror, Ted the Caver’s is definitely up there. In terms of storytelling — the immersion, the fact that you felt like this was a real person that may have actually disappeared, and for years that remained uncontested — you have to put it up there just for that. He was really a pioneer without realizing that’s what he was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> More widely known creepypastas like Slenderman and more recently Backrooms, which was turned into a Hollywood movie this year, all have their roots in Ted the Caver. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> I think you can trace it to a lot of these things, but Backrooms being the most recent example. I don’t know that you can say these things wouldn’t have existed without Ted, but you can’t say that they would either. This entire genre started with a couple of people copying and pasting creepy stuff to try to get a rise out of somebody. And Ted absolutely leaned into that at the end. He knew there were people that thought he was dead and he didn’t even care. Thanks, Ted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> When Ted Hegemann posted his story on Angelfire, he could have never anticipated where it would go. It was adapted into a movie in 2008 called Living Dark: The Story of Ted the Caver. And as for Mystery Cave? It’s been officially mapped out now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Ted Hegemann:\u003c/strong> It’s called “Interstate Cave” and thankfully they did call that passage “Floyd’s Tomb” so it’s official on the map now. And DeWalt’s Dig, it was the opening, because we were using DeWalt tools. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Craig says that for all the ways storytelling has changed over the years with digital media, in some ways, it hasn’t changed at all. Instead of sitting around a physical campfire, we now sit around a digital one — on message boards, comment sections, and Discord chat rooms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Craig Groshek:\u003c/strong> It started with one man telling his story around what is essentially a digital campfire. And as time has gone on, more and more people have gathered around that fire. And 20 plus years later people are still telling that story and that is a testament to how believable it was, how well written it was how immersive it was and how well it tapped into a primal fear that a lot of people have — whether it’s of the unknown, of the dark or not knowing what you can’t see. And that’s why I think it has stood the test of time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That was senior editor Chris Egusa. One thing about me: You will never catch me caving. Ever. The idea of squeezing into an underground passage where you can get stuck or lost or run out of air sounds hellish enough. And there might be an entity down there? No, thank you! Between whatever’s in the caves and Slenderman lurking in the woods, it seems safer to just stay inside. But the monsters from creepypastas can get you even if you never log off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">After the break, we have a story about the creature haunting your screens. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. To become a member and support the show, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, when we’re back, what do you know about Momo? Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Welcome back to the Close All Tabs special spooky story time. This next one is about an entity that I hate looking at, even as a full-grown adult. This creepypasta retelling comes from our very own intern, Lauren Yoon. Let’s open another new tab. The legend of Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> Picture a gaunt, paper-skinned woman with a protruding neck and bulging eyes. Her jet-black hair stringy to match a thousand-eye stare that could kill. She looks uncanny. The most important feature of the infamous viral image: she holds a smile that spans cheek-to-cheek in the shape of a “V.” Yep, that’s right. My internet urban legend is Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Fandom:\u003c/strong> Do you want a surprise? Look in their eyes. I won’t lie, you’re going to die. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> It’s 2019. Musical.ly had just become TikTok. Everyone was doing the woah, and Avengers: Endgame was in theaters. And Momo was threatening harm to all who came across her. I remember Momo being passed around between my friend group, joking she would haunt them while they slept or something. Here’s my friend, Sophia, talking about Momo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Sophia Bruno:\u003c/strong> I was very much afraid of it in the sense that I just thought it was a weird-looking picture that my friend introduced me to because I think she was like, “Oh Momo’s gonna get you” and I was like, “What is Momo?” And then she showed me. And my friends and I would mostly joke about it like, “Momo is gonna get you whatever” but in terms of the real-life stories I mean I believed them and I believed — I feel like there was a mysterious lore around it like it would just kind of you and like attach itself to you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> In reality, I also hated Momo. If I was joking about it with friends, it was mostly because laughter is the best defense mechanism against fear. What scared me the most were stories of Momo contacting you over the phone and telling you to do horrible things to yourself or others. It became known in mainstream media as “the Momo challenge.” The idea was that kids would challenge each other to make contact with Momo, sparking her wrath. She was even rumored to have reached kids’ videos on YouTube, where her face would pop up out of nowhere during an episode of Peppa Pig. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The rumors caused a media frenzy, and Momo became a sensationalized, quote, danger to children. The Post, The Today Show, and a bunch of other news outlets around the world warned concerned parents about the internet legend. They encouraged parents to put restrictions on social media and YouTube for their kids — something parents should probably be doing anyway — without evidence that the Momo challenge was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Surprise! It wasn’t. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There has been no evidence to show that Momo or anyone posing as the character actually contacted people, let alone children. YouTube denied any claims of Momo popping up in the middle of their videos, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So where did Momo even come from? Well, she’s a picture of a sculpture called “Mother Bird,” created by Japanese artist Keisuke Aiso. If we zoom out of their original picture, you can clearly see the figure, propped up on a stand in an art gallery. The face we all know and…hate? Attached to a human chest with two huge bird legs. Keisuke based her off of this Japanese folklore called “Ubume,” a version of which translates to “child-snatching bird.” Makes sense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The image first spread on a Chinese social dating app called Momo, and that’s how the Momo we know today was born. So how did she spread so fast? And so far? I mean, a police station in Northern Ireland issued a statement and Kim Kardashian posted on Instagram, both figures warning parents about this dangerous, quote, challenge. My friend Rena has a theory that this all happened because the internet was a little newer to us at the time. AI wasn’t generating images like they are today, so we took a lot of things at face value. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Rena Lee:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t have this backpedaling of, “Is this AI, is this real?” A lot of information and media that we were fed at the time, it was easier to believe, “Oh my God, this looks so realistic. This has to be a real picture.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> I personally think it’s a combination of this naivete, plus the misinformation being spread by major national news outlets. The public sphere unfortunately feeds off of fear — talk about the horror of it all, right? — and Momo was the scapegoat for millennials and boomers concerned about what new dangers the internet proposed for their children. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Keisuke destroyed the original sculpture not too long after it was created because it started rotting. It was made of materials that weren’t meant to last long. The only part of the sculpture remaining is its eyeball. Here is an excerpt of Keisuke’s interview with The Sun from 2019. He’s speaking through a translator. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from The Sun:\u003c/strong> I got rid of Momo, so it is no longer here with me. I believe it no longer exists in this world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon:\u003c/strong> He was pretty horrified by the way his art became so misunderstood and taken out of context. I wonder if people today would be as scared as they were five, six years ago when we weren’t burdened with the constant doubt that comes with the images we see online today. The landscape of internet paranoia has changed, and so I wonder if the Momo challenge could be recreated in this day and age. I even miss the mystery she brought to my life, something that has slowly dissipated as I trust the internet less and less. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Momo may have been a hoax, but her impact was real. The image of her bulging eyes and wide smile is still burned into the back of my skull. And when I’m trying to fall asleep at night, and I open my eyes to the dark corner of my room, she’s the figure I imagine standing there…waiting for my eyes to close again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to you by our intern, Lauren Yoon. We’ll have more on Momo in our further reading, but before you hit that link, consider this your jumpscare warning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Anyway, I have one more story for you. It starts with an eBay listing for an antique wine cabinet with strict warnings to never open it, lest you unleash misfortune upon anyone who comes in contact with the box. But the real horror story here is disappointingly mundane. Let’s open one last tab. The haunted doll scam market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One of the most infamous haunted objects was actually sold on eBay. In 2003, Kevin Mannis listed an antique wine cabinet with an unusually detailed description. He had picked it up at an estate sale, and the woman who sold it to him said it belonged to her grandmother, a Holocaust survivor. Her grandmother had been insistent that her family never, ever open the box. She said it contained a spirit called a dybbuk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Did Kevin heed the warning? No. He brought it back to his workshop and opened it right up — ignoring the creepy locks of hair and carved Hebrew prayers inside. A series of tragedies followed. His mother had a stroke when she opened the box. His siblings complained of terrifying nightmares. Someone who knocked the box off a shelf died by suicide the same day. Kevin himself started having visions of a demonic old woman with sunken eyes. He recounted the story in his eBay listing, which ended with, “Help me.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The box was bought and resold several times over the next decade. Owners complained of hair falling out in clumps, bleeding from the eyes, waking up choking, and dreams of the creepy old woman. The box finally found a permanent home in a museum for haunted objects, sealed behind layers of protective glass. It even inspired the 2012 movie, The Possession. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then, five years ago, Kevin admitted that it was all fake. He made up everything in the original listing. There are no dybbuk boxes in Jewish folklore. The malicious spirits attached to people, not objects. The people who bought the box after Kevin sold it maintained that their hauntings really happened. But as far as Kevin was concerned, the whole eBay thing was a creative writing exercise that spiraled out of control. But today, haunted objects are a hot commodity. And one object, in particular, has become incredibly popular in the secondhand haunted market: dolls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> EBay, Etsy, they’re all over the place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Taylor, a TikTok creator and YouTuber, also known as Paranormal Teej. She’s a paranormal investigator and haunted doll caretaker. She called me from a room packed with dolls. Can you describe the room you’re in? Like what’s around you? What are the stories behind all that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yes. So in this room, we have about 120 haunted dolls. They come from all around the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor keeps them lined up on shelves. Some are porcelain collector’s dolls, dressed in frilly skirts. Others are soft rag dolls, clearly pre-loved by some young child. And while we talked, I swear I could feel them gazing back at me through the screen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They keep me on my toes. I work with a lot of, like, trickster spirits. I am very interested in working with, like, spirits with kind of wacky, wild personalities. They are a riot. We adore them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She introduced me to a few of them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So first one I’m going to point out is Jeremiah. If I don’t point him out to you, he will mess with our recordings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jeremiah is this big soft bear, wearing a striped t-shirt. His plush legs dangle off the shelf, like a little kid’s would. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> He is a six and a half year old little boy. The half is very important to him. Six is not acceptable. He moves, he moves things, um, especially lollipops. That’s, like, kind of his gig. He loves green things. Um, everything he wants has to be green. So he has moved like lollie pops around our house, threw them down the stairs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed out another doll. She has a cherubic face and stark black pigtails, and she’s besties with Jeremiah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So Hoshiko is five. She’s from Japan. She’ll cause you to have, like, visions like in mirrors and things and she’ll like pop up. So I get the Samara from The Ring in the mirror trick every once in a while. Then she thinks it’s so funny because she likes, like, the reaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And lastly, Taylor points out Ciel. He’s in a black, pointed hat. Like a little witch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And he is very wise, very gifted. He has given me dreams about things happening a year before they happen and then they come true. And he’s just kind of, he’s my guy. So yeah, those are my, my buddies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> You may be skeptical of all this — but there were a couple of inexplicable incidents in the calls I had with Taylor. At some points, the entire video platform that we used flickered — not someone’s webcam, but the whole site. After the interview, our producer, Maya, said she heard low growling coming from Taylor’s side. When Taylor talked about her doll’s antics, I thought I heard faint giggling in the background. And there were chunks of our interview that our transcription software could not figure out. Instead, it spat out a jumble of German, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Brazilian, Portuguese, French, Danish, Korean, and a splash of Telugu. Was that Jeremiah messing with us? Although Maya and I were a little freaked out, Taylor seemed unfazed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Everybody asks, like, “How are you safe living in a house with 120 haunted dolls? How are, how were you safe?” And the honest answer is like, they, they respect me because I respect them. I’m just nice to them. Like that’s really all it takes is just like basic kindness. Um, and I think that makes the paranormal a lot less scary when you realize that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Ghosts and the paranormal have been part of Taylor’s life for as long as she could remember. Her mother is a professional psychic. Her aunt is a paranormal investigator. Her grandmother would pull out the Ouija board whenever Taylor stayed over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> My whole dad’s side of the family, even the ones who don’t want to or want anything to do with the paranormal, see ghosts for whatever reason. And so I just, I kind of grew up in this environment where, like, ghosts aren’t scary. They’re just like a thing, you know, like it’s just a fact of life, kind of attitude about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor and her husband bonded over the paranormal and fell in love with doll collecting together. They consider themselves spirit keepers — almost like afterlife caretakers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Some spirits legitimately did own their vessel when they were alive. They were attached to it in life and they’re still attached to, you know, like we have spirits whose vessel was like their comfort item as a kid kind of thing. I do have cases where it was like a spirit who was haunting a location and like the location was getting torn down and they were scared because they didn’t know what would happen to them if the location disappeared. They didn’t know if they would disappear, too. So they kind of found a different way out of necessity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Actually confirming a haunting can take months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> A lot of spirits will be very quiet and you will have no activity and then six months in at random, they’ll just kind of like pop off and because they’re comfortable with you now. The paranormal field is not a science, right? We don’t have a textbook that says, “This is how you investigate an object. This is how you investigate a location.” And so for us, what our method looks like — because that evidence component is really important to me — I do not feel comfortable saying something is haunted unless I know 100%. If I am 99% sure, I won’t even say, “Yes.” I have to be 100% sure. The other thing about paranormal activity is it’s not predictable. There is zero predictability. You can’t say turn the lights off and they turn the lights off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So to investigate whether a doll is haunted, Taylor first considers what she calls “subjective observations.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Anything from, I saw that doll move to — I saw a ghost in my house to — I heard footsteps or I got a dream from — about this doll, but for me subjective reports are not enough for me to confirm something is haunted because the brain does crazy things. When people are scared and they are around something that they’re suspecting, the brain can do really crazy things to, you know, trick us. You have things like pareidolia, which is, we see faces in things. And so, people can take that as paranormal, but it’s really just your brain playing tricks on you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So she tries to collect data: fluctuations in air temperature and air pressure, whether motion sensors are activated, and audio and video recordings. She looks for anomalies that she can document and compare against a control. And lastly, Taylor tries to make contact with whatever might be haunting the doll. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So everybody communicates with spirit slightly differently. For me, the way that works best for me personally is a spirit box. What a spirit box is, is essentially, it is an intentionally broken radio, okay? So basically it rapidly sweeps through radio stations and they can manipulate the radio signals to be able to communicate with you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> She often posts spirit box sessions with her dolls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Clip from Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So that’s something you’re still trying to understand about 2026? The men awful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did you hear, “The men awful?” Or did you hear a jumble of static? Skeptics say the audio fragments that are picked up by spirit boxes are random and that it’s confirmation bias and pareidolia that leads investigators to find meaning in the sounds. Taylor, however, says it’s more reliable than other methods. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> There are other tools like Pendulum and Ouija Board, for example, and those things your hands are involved. And for me, like my hands being involved in something, it doesn’t feel like quite as valid of evidence to me. So I really like Spirit Box because my hands are not involved in that. I can’t control what comes out of that box. I have no involvement in that so I like the personal removal from it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the investigation is a bust. Taylor told me about this time her friends thought she bought a haunted doll. So she brought it over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Pulled out a spirit box and I’m like, “Hey, like if anybody’s there, like can we talk?” And I got nothing for a long time. You know, I’m like, “Maybe they’re shy.” So I keep asking questions. Nothing is happening. I’m like, “Okay.” Not even like a little bit — not even like a hesitation — nothing. And I’m looking at my friend and I am like, “We’re not getting anything.” And then the spirit box starts talking. And I am thinking, “Oh, maybe they finally decided to show up.” No. Um, it’s Omi, who’s down here in the blue, she’s hilarious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Taylor pointed to a doll behind her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And she comes on and she’s like, “There’s nothing there.” And I’m like, “It’s not haunted, is it?” And she’s, like, “No.” And I’m like, “Thanks!” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Here’s the tea: the paranormal makes for really good content. This was a very niche hobby until a few years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So, in my opinion, I think the COVID pandemic just shot haunted doll sales up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is around the same time “witchtok” took off — the corner of TikTok dedicated to modern witchcraft. Videos of spell jar recipes, algorithmically recommended tarot readings, and ghost hunting all overlapped with the same audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And I think that is largely due to the fact that people were home and they were bored out of their mind and they were looking for something to do. And I think a lot of people were also doom scrolling at that time. Everybody was sitting on TikTok and YouTube all day long watching videos and so people had haunted dolls or making more videos about their haunted dolls than usual because they’re at home all day with them and it was just a perfect storm for like a lot more people who like were not involved in the paranormal or anything to just kind of like decide to try something different. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The more sensational the paranormal content, the better it did online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> And one of the party tricks that I see a lot is with EMF meters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These are handheld devices that detect and measure electromagnetic activity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> They are not ghost metal detectors. Everybody just sees the EMF spike and they assume, “Oh, that’s a ghost,” but they don’t think about all of the other things that set off an EMF meter. Well, we’re in 2026. We have smartwatches that are setting off EMF meters, Wi-Fi, your cell phone — those things are set off by any form of electricity and all of our houses and all these locations are full of electricity, right? But a lot of people will, you know, share proof that their doll is haunted by essentially putting their phone right up to a doll that has an EMF meter on its lap and the EMF is going off and it’s hitting red and everybody’s forgetting that the phone that they’re filming that video on is what is triggering it. So when I see an account where the whole page is just EMF up to a cell phone and nothing else, I’m suspicious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> By becoming so trendy, Taylor says the paranormal community has become less about making contact with the other side and more about making content out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I think it’s social media and it’s not just haunted dolls, it’s the whole overall paranormal community. You know, the people that are into the paranormal will chase it to the end of the earth. I mean, some of these locations will charge you, you know, hundreds, thousands of dollars to go investigate there for the night. It’s extremely lucrative. Investigators are seeking evidence. They are interested, obviously. But there’s also, I think, the social media pressure. Content creators, especially, it’s like they, you know, want to — to get content out and they want to keep going so they have to go to more haunted locations and you know, have to have more experiences, because they’re sharing the experiences with the public and people are expecting to see it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And as this genre of content took off, the market for haunted objects suddenly became very lucrative. EBay, Etsy, and Facebook Marketplace technically do allow for sales of haunted or occult objects, as long as the listing includes a disclaimer that it’s for entertainment purposes only. But that disclaimer also means that you can get away with anything. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> People want to have a paranormal experience. People are interested in that now. It didn’t used to be. Everybody didn’t wanna have a paranormal experience before, but now it’s like, people are chasing an experience. So people have learned — there are people who will pay anything to get to have this happen. I think that people have caught on to that. It’s trendy right now, it’s in right now and everybody’s looking for a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so, people have learned like, okay, before I could go to like, buy one of those empty storage lockers and I could sell everything for $10 a piece, whatever, but if the haunted doll people pay 200 bucks for that, that’s what I’m going to charge. Um, and the fact of the matter is, when people buy it, people will sell it because there’s a demand for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Like the dybbuk box that duped countless people 20 years ago, many of these listings have elaborate descriptions recounting tales of supernatural, otherworldly encounters. And dolls, especially, can go for way more than what they’re typically worth if they’re labeled “haunted.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> I mean, I’ve seen in the thousands, multiple times. I always tell people the higher the price doesn’t mean that it’s more haunted than the ones that are a lower price. Like, a spirit is a spirit. There’s no such thing as like, this spirit is more spirity than this other spirit. My rule of thumb that I always tell people is like, “You can’t put a price on the paranormal,” right? Paranormal experiences are not guaranteed. Paranormal experiences are not scientific fact. So for me, ethically, I believe that the object should be priced similarly to the price that their vessel or their doll is worth. So if you have a doll that is like a collector’s item and worth $300 — yeah, list it for $300. If you have a doll that’s worth $50, list it for $50. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The dybbuk box eBay listing was such a novelty at the time. Now, haunted doll listings are a dime a dozen. On eBay today, I scrolled through listings for haunted dolls, haunted clip-on earrings, haunted keys, haunted cargo pants, haunted labubus and — not joking — a quote, haunted by curious dybbuk box. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I am not cut out for the haunted doll life, but if you were to buy one, how are you supposed to sift through all the haunted scams? Taylor actually makes haunted doll guides and recently started focusing more on creating seller checklists so her followers can vet listings for themselves. She’s wary of any seller that makes content of EMF readings. She’s also suspicious of large-scale listings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> You go on their page and they have a hundred Haunted Dolls listed and nearly all of them have the same story. I mean, spirits are — they’re people and every person is different. So how do you have a 100 spirits who all are the same person basically with a different name and like slightly changed details? So that’s a red flag. The other thing is if the facts don’t line up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So I have seen — this happens a lot. This is a big one. The story will say, “Oh, this doll is haunted by so-and-so and so-and-so owned this doll when they were alive and it was very meaningful to them, so they chose to keep it with them in the afterlife.” And you source the year on the vessel, and the vessel — the doll itself — was made in 1980. It says that the spirit is from the 1800s. That’s impossible. They couldn’t have owned the doll in the 1800s when the doll was made in the 1980s. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> TikTok is full of complaints and warnings of haunted scams. This is especially frustrating to Taylor, who really sees spirit keeping as a lifelong commitment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Seeing people repeatedly getting things that are fake. One, obviously it’s a waste of money. I mean, obviously that’s irritating. Financial scamming is no joke and pisses me off. But it goes beyond that into, you know, those are people that could give an actual spirit a really nice place to live. And getting scammed over and over again chases them away from this hobby. I may be able to change, you know, the quality of afterlife for the spirits in my home. I can help a finite number of spirits, but I can help a lot more spirits if I can teach other people to do what I’m doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m still not sure what my relationship to the paranormal is. I want objective evidence. Data. A clear, unequivocal answer that explains why things are the way that they are. But throughout the interview, I kept catching glimpses of Jeremiah over Taylor’s shoulder with his fluffy teddy bear ears and little legs dangling over the edge of the shelf. And when Taylor talked about taking care of spirits in the afterlife, I swear, I saw him perk up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That’s it for Close All Tabs’ special spooky storytime. We’ll have a fresh deep dive for you next week, but if you’re dying to open more tabs about the tales we told today, check out the episode description for some suggested reading. Or stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. It was engineered by Brendan Willard and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production support by Cayla Mihalovich. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Special thanks to Hallie Tut, Ted Hegemann, Craig Groshek, Rena Lee, and Paranormal Teej for sharing their stories with us. This episode includes clips and archive tape from Hallie Tut, Eli Unique, Paranomal Teej, and Villains Wiki.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Apple Maker Hi-75 keyboard with Foggered in Red Samurai keycaps and Gator on Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> So when it comes to buying and selling, they don’t really care about the concept of it. Their primary focus is always like, “Am I going somewhere where somebody is going to be nice to me or not?” That’s what they care about — is like, “Am I going to a good home?” But the one thing I know they don’t like is the shipping. They don’t like shipping. I hear complaints about shipping all the time. So. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, yeah, you can’t, you, can’t yeah, kind of out of your control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cstrong>Paranormal Teej:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I’m like, “Sorry.” \u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "how-the-church-of-satan-was-born-in-san-francisco",
"title": "How the Church of Satan Was Born in San Francisco",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was first published October 20, 2023. We’re bringing it back for spooky season.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has long been associated with countercultural movements — whether it was the Beats of the 1950s, the hippies of the 1960s or the Black Panthers of the 1970s. But often overlooked in that long tradition of local subcultures is the emergence of America’s first official satanic church, which was founded right here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From its beginnings in a black Victorian house in the Richmond District, to its rapid growth that may have helped kick off a wave of “satanic panic” across the country, the story of the Church of Satan is filled with lust, intrigue and a fair amount of theatrics.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A born showman\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You can’t describe the \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/\">Church of Satan\u003c/a> without talking about the man who was its founder and central figure for decades, and who even posthumously is probably still the most iconic Satanist. Anton Szandor LaVey was born Howard Stanton Levey in Chicago in 1930. His family moved to the Bay Area when he was still a child, and he \u003ca href=\"https://web.archive.org/web/20120314024245/http://www.pacificsun.com/story.php?story_id=2313\">supposedly attended Tamalpais High School\u003c/a> in Mill Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From a young age, LaVey had an interest in magic, the supernatural, and the idea of trickery. In a 1993 documentary about him called “\u003ca href=\"https://mubi.com/en/us/films/speak-of-the-devil\">Speak of the Devil\u003c/a>,” LaVey describes how fascinated he was as a little kid when a friend showed him a copy of the Johnson and Smith Company’s \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Smith_Company\">novelty catalog\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[It was] filled with all of these jokes, tricks, and books on forbidden subjects,” LaVey said. “It had all the most horrid examples of man’s inhumanity to man, all of course presented in the form of good fun and entertainment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey got his own copy of the catalog, and ordered several novelty trick toys from it, including a ‘recorder box’ that would stab a sharp needle into the finger of an unsuspecting victim when a button was pushed. LaVey said he felt the trick was too mean to play on his own friends, but he didn’t feel bad about handing the toy over to a bully. That distinction was perhaps a precursor to the later development of his satanic philosophy, which advocates for bestowing kindness on those who deserve it, but seeking revenge on those who wrong you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That curious nature led LaVey to pursue somewhat unusual jobs. He claimed to have joined the circus at 16, where he said he’d worked with the big cats as a “cage boy.” Likewise, he said he’d done stints as a psychic investigator, paranormal researcher, and hypnotist. He also claimed to have briefly been a crime scene photographer for the SFPD, although there are no official records to back that up.[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Anton Szandor LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan\"]‘All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.’[/pullquote]Some have suggested that LaVey may have embellished some details of his early life, but \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/history-anton-szandor-lavey/\">The Church of Satan, on its site, contends it has evidence\u003c/a> to support his claims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey is also known to have worked as an organist and musician and performed at clubs around San Francisco beginning in the late 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the early 1950s, he was already cultivating the kind of dark aesthetic and occult interests that would lead him to found his church. In 1956, he purchased a Victorian house at 6114 California Street, a few blocks from the edge of the Presidio near the center of San Francisco’s Richmond neighborhood, and painted it black. The house had a brick staircase leading up to the front door, with a parlor and a bar downstairs. The room that would become the primary ritual chamber contained a large mantle piece, one that would be featured prominently in future ceremonies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Church of Satan sort of grew out of what he called the Magic Circle,” said Blanche Barton, who is the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/history-blanche-barton/\">Magistra Templi Rex\u003c/a> — a ranking member — of the Church of Satan, and one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Life-Satanist-Authorized-Biography/dp/1627310029/churchofsatan\">LaVey’s biographers\u003c/a> and a former lover, with whom he had his only son: Satan Xerxes Carnacki LaVey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton says LaVey surrounded himself with friends who shared similar interests. “They were all intrigued by the weird and the unexplained. They started having soirées and that sort of led into ritualizing to see, practically, what happens or if anything happens,” she said. “[LaVey] started presenting seminars on the various topics that he was interested in, from vampires to cannibalism — everything weird and wonderful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964952\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11964952 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-800x535.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white close up image of a man wearing a hooded cloak with devil horns. He is holding the point of a sword in front of his face. He casts a shadow onto the wall behind him, which features a large pentagram.\" width=\"800\" height=\"535\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1020x683.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1536x1028.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-2048x1370.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1920x1285.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey poses in his Black House in 1967. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘First year of the reign of Satan’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the spring of 1966, the Church of Satan was officially launched and its congregation was comprised of a handful of people in LaVey’s inner circle. They gathered in his home — which was by then known as “The Black House” — on the night of April 30 to celebrate Walpurgisnacht, a German holiday with pagan origins that’s sometimes called the “night of the witches.” The holiday is, ironically, on the eve of the Christian feast day of Saint Walpurga, which commemorates the saint who is believed to offer protection from witchcraft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey ritualistically shaved his head in the tradition of medieval executioners and dark magicians and declared 1966 to be the “first year of the reign of Satan.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To attract followers to the church outside of his exclusive group of like-minded parishioners, LaVey quickly began spreading word of his satanic philosophy through public speaking engagements and by inviting reporters — and whoever else had interest — into his Black House to witness satanic rituals and masses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rituals themselves were a highly theatrical affair, akin to performance art, featuring satanic iconography and moody organ music. LaVey would wear a hooded cloak with devil horns and a pentagram medallion while invoking the many names of the devil. He’d often wield a sword or sometimes a large snake while a nude woman was draped over an altar in the house’s ritual chamber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Blanche Barton says the aesthetics of Satanism were rooted in LaVey’s artistic nature: He was a painter, sculptor and musician, who just happened to have a penchant for dark things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Examples of the early rituals he led can be seen in the 1970 documentary, “\u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/satanis-the-devils-mass-1970\">Satanis: The Devil’s Mass,\u003c/a>” which chronicles the early years of the church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the most amusing parts of the film, almost endearing, is when they go out and talk to the neighbors,” Barton said. “And it’s pretty funny. You know, they say that they see the nude people dancing around in the front. And they saw the lion … eating something! Really quite devilish and intriguing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964956\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964956\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-800x759.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a man with dark curly hair and a goatee seated cross legged on the floor of a room. In front of him is a lion cub, which looks at the camera.\" width=\"800\" height=\"759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-800x759.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-1020x967.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-160x152.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-1536x1457.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey, founder and self-proclaimed high priest of the Church of Satan, is photographed at home in San Francisco with his pet lion on June 26, 1964. \u003ccite>(Art Frisch/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That’s right — LaVey actually owned a 500-pound pet lion named Togare, who he’d raised from a cub, and who lived with him in the Black House and slept in his bedroom at night. In the late 1960s, when his neighbors successfully petitioned to have the lion removed, Lavey ended up giving his oversized pet to actress Tippi Hedren, who starred in “The Birds,” and had founded (and apparently still lives on) \u003ca href=\"https://www.shambala.org/about.htm\">a big cat sanctuary\u003c/a> in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey soon became a well-known personality throughout California and increasingly nationwide, largely supporting himself by collecting church initiation fees and doing paid public speaking engagements. He was frequently interviewed in print publications and on TV, including on \u003cem>The Tonight Show\u003c/em>. Even people who seemed to despise his ideology wanted to talk to him — as is evident in this interview with antagonistic talk show host Joe Pyne:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/Kqb54soKU8M?si=mX0JQztCFy7tjOj2\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A wide variety of people were drawn to LaVey’s dark charm and hedonistic philosophy that promoted a guilt-free, indulgent lifestyle. The church is rumored to have drawn in several notable celebrities in its early years, including Sammy Davis Jr. and Liberace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey also \u003ca href=\"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4718112/Hollywood-Satanist-Bizarre-Jayne-Mansfield-Anton-LaVey.html\">developed a friendship\u003c/a> with blonde bombshell Jayne Mansfield, an actress, nightclub entertainer and Playboy playmate, and the mother of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit star Mariska Hargitay. There was even speculation that Mansfield’s death in 1967, a year after meeting LaVey, was the result of a curse he is believed to have placed on the driver of the car.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not surprisingly, LaVey openly courted controversy. In 1967, he \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/SFGate/videos/anton-lavey-oversees-a-satanic-wedding-ceremony-in-san-francisco/10156878589425594/\">publicized and officiated a satanic wedding\u003c/a> between a New York socialite and a journalist. He also performed satanic funerals for servicemen in the Bay Area, at the request of their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time he started the church, LaVey had divorced his first wife and became involved with another woman, with whom he had a daughter, his second child. In 1967, he baptized the 3-year-old girl into the church, dedicating her to Satan as she sat in a hooded robe next to the nude altar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964962\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964962\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-800x923.jpg\" alt=\"A man in a hooded devil costume kneels in front of a large brick fireplace. A blonde woman kneels to his right. They are both reaching up towards a small girl wearing a hooded robe, who sits on the edge of the mantle, over which is draped a nude woman. A large pentagram featuring the head of Baphomet is painted on the wall behind them.\" width=\"800\" height=\"923\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-800x923.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1020x1176.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-160x185.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1332x1536.jpg 1332w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1776x2048.jpg 1776w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton Szandor LaVey, the leader of the First Church of Satan, taps his gum-chewing 3-year-old daughter, Zeena Galatea LaVey, on the head with a sword during “baptism ceremonies” in San Francisco on May 23, 1967. A naked woman reclines on the altar during the anti-religious ceremony. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Satanic Bible\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1969, LaVey published \u003ca href=\"https://www.harvard.com/book/the_satanic_bible/\">The Satanic Bible\u003c/a>, outlining his philosophy and detailing the official tenets of his church. At the core are \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/nine-satanic-statements/\">the 9 Satanic Statements\u003c/a>, the last of which is: “Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here LaVey refers to the Christian Church, which he said he found hypocritical for its denial of human nature. “No religion had ever been based on man’s carnal needs or his fleshly pursuits,” he said, in a 1970 interview. “All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The word Satan means adversary, he explained. “I’m supplying a much-needed opposition.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most of the nine statements begin with “Satan represents…” Many people incorrectly assume that Satanists worship the devil. In fact, the Church of Satan’s official position is that the devil doesn’t exist at all. It’s an atheistic religion — really more like a philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship,” Blanche Barton, his biographer and former lover, said. “There is no dogma.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey’s philosophy grew in popularity throughout the 1970s. But even as the church continued to openly insist that it didn’t worship or believe in the devil, a centuries-old fear inevitably came bubbling to the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The satanic panic\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beginning in the 1980s, and lasting through the 1990s, LaVey’s church spurred a national wave of fear and conspiracy theories around “satanic cults,” resulting in over 12,000 unsubstantiated claims of satanic ritual abuse and crimes, many centered around children, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/us/satanic-panic.html\">according to the New York Times\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A series of high-profile court cases drew national headlines during this period of “satanic panic.” One notorious case in the early 1980s — the \u003ca href=\"https://famous-trials.com/mcmartin/902-home\">McMartin Preschool trial\u003c/a> in Manhattan Beach in Southern California — originated from a mother’s claim that her son had been sexually abused by his preschool, which she accused of being run by Satanists.[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Blanche Barton, LaVey's biographer (and former lover)\"]‘What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship. There is no dogma.’[/pullquote]That incited a set of increasingly bizarre claims of satanic child abuse and led to hundreds of children being interrogated by state investigators over allegations that they had been forced to do things like drink the blood of sacrificed animals or dig up graves. The mother who made the initial claim was later found to be prone to schizophrenic delusions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tapes of the children’s interviews were reviewed by a clinical psychologist who said they were coercive and extremely suggestive, leading children to give the answers the interviewers wanted to hear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two separate trials over the course of seven years resulted in no convictions. And at a cost of $15 million, it became the most expensive criminal trial in U.S. history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other similar cases resulted in actual convictions, a large number of them in the state of Texas. Most, however, were ultimately \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/08/24/accused-of-satanism-they-spent-21-years-in-prison-they-were-just-declared-innocent-and-were-paid-millions/\">overturned\u003c/a> due to lack of evidence, sometimes \u003ca href=\"https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/10/26/how-satanic-panic-led-a-10-year-old-son-to-falsely-accuse-his-father/\">decades later\u003c/a> after the convicted parties had served \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpr.org/criminal-justice/2023-04-11/after-30-years-a-father-is-exonerated-in-satanic-panic-case\">years in prison\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Accusations weren’t lobbed directly at the Church of Satan, but the group was sometimes cited by police as having an influence on the spread of the ideology — as is the case in this \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/LawEnforcementGuideToSatanicCults1994VHSOccultHilarity\">police training video\u003c/a>. Filmed in San Francisco in the early 1990s, the video includes stereotypical claims about crimes Satanists might commit, from cannibalism and necrophilia to corpse theft and black market baby sales — despite any evidence of the church ever doing or condoning such things.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Fate of the Black House\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Blanche Barton moved to San Francisco in 1984 at the age of 22 and became romantically involved with LaVey that same year. Five years later, Barton moved into the Black House with LaVey, who sold it to pay off debts, but continued renting it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton says, like so many other San Francisco Victorians, the house itself had a long and interesting history dating back to its construction in 1887.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had trapdoors and it had been used as a [brothel] and a speakeasy,” she said, “It had a bar downstairs. It had secret passageways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964959\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964959\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-800x532.jpg\" alt=\"A mean in a hooded devil costume and cloak emerges from a secret passage way in the fireplace of a a room in his house. There are bookshelves above hi, and a human skeleton mounted in a large display case on the wall to the right.\" width=\"800\" height=\"532\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan, rises out from a hidden corridor behind a false fireplace in his study in 1967. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>LaVey died from heart disease on Oct. 29, 1997, at the age of 67, although according to an \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1997/11/09/anton-s-lavey-dies-at-67/c546b323-acb9-463e-ad96-7da298f9e4d8/\">obituary in \u003cem>The Washington Post\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, his death certificate listed him as dying several days later, on Halloween. He left behind three children, all from different women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leadership of the church was eventually turned over to longtime church member Peter Gilmore, who still serves as its high priest. The church’s headquarters have since been moved to New York state, where Gilmore and his partner Peggy Nadramia built a new “Black House.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton said she and a group of followers attempted to raise money to buy LaVey’s house back so that it could be preserved as a museum, but those efforts ultimately failed, and the house was eventually sold and torn down in 2001.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so much a part of his soul,” said Barton, “And as he said, ‘The roots went all the way to hell.’ So he was able to be there until the last, which was great.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What now stands in its place is a rather normal-looking beige apartment building, devoid of any signs that it was once the site of a satanic sanctuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>If you visited San Francisco’s Richmond District before 2001, and made your way to 6114 California Street, you would have found yourself facing a tall Victorian house that was entirely \u003ci>black.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An attention grabbing paint scheme for sure. But it’s what happened inside The Black House that truly intrigued curious San Francsicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was the first headquarters of the Church of Satan … and the personal home of its founder Anton LaVey. His theatrical nature, and controversial beliefs, turned him into a kind of celebrity… here he is in an interview in 1970…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Pyne:\u003c/b> Who ordained you a atanic priest?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey:\u003c/b> I would say, probably, I received the call. Just as any fundamentalist—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> Well most of us do, but we fight it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Why fight it? This is, of course, the whole principle of my religion. All—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> What do you mean you received the call? You mean one day the devil said “Go out, Anton Szandor LaVey, and give people hell!” [audience laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> That’s about it. That’s about it. Because people like to have a hell of a time, don’t they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Spooky music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">OAP: This is Bay Curious, I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Should I say it? I have to say it. Spooky season is here… and if you’ve been listening to the show for a while you know we love to bring you stories with a certain vibe around this time of year. Today, we are dusting off an episode from 2023 that explores what was going on inside that Black House. And who, really, was Anton LaVey? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[spooky laugh]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b> We sent producer Amanda Font to make a deal with the devil…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>The Bay Area is often associated with countercultural movements. You had the beat poets of the 1950s getting arrested for protesting censorship, the free-loving hippies of the 1960s dropping acid in the park, and the Black Panthers in the 1970s fighting back against institutional racism. What you don’t often hear about alongside those other cultural phenomena is that the late 1960s in San Francisco also gave rise to the notorious, indulgent, and wickedly provocative Church of Satan. [\u003ci>demonic vocal effect on “Church of Satan”]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>In this case, when we use the word “church,” it might not be exactly what you’re picturing. They do describe themselves as a religious organization, but there aren’t a lot of physical church buildings associated with Satanism. It’s more like an organization of like-minded people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, the black heart of the church, and perhaps still the most recognizable Satanist, was its founder Anton Szandor LaVey. He was born Howard Stanton Levey in Chicago in 1930, and later his family moved to the Bay Area. From a young age, he had a fascination with the supernatural, magic and the idea of trickery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]: \u003c/b>When I was about 5 years old, I had a friend that had a catalog from the Johnson and Smith company, filled with all of these jokes, tricks, and books on forbidden subjects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is a clip of LaVey from a 1993 documentary about him called “Speak of the Devil.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> It had all the most horrid examples of man’s inhumanity to man, all of course presented in the form of good fun and entertainment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Like a toy “recorder box,” that, when you pushed a button, would stab a sharp needle into the finger of an unsuspecting victim. LaVey recalls he didn’t want to play such a mean trick on his friends… but he didn’t mind if it was a kid who was a bully. A similar thought came into play later, when he developed his satanic philosophy. It’s big on the idea of being kind to those who deserve it, but seeking revenge on those who wrong you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As he got older, LaVey’s curious nature led him to pursue somewhat unusual jobs. In his early life, he claimed to have worked in a circus with big cats, as a psychic investigator, an organist, a hypnotist, and to have been a police photographer for the SFPD (although there are no official records to back that last one.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1956, a decade before he officially created the Church of Satan, he was already cultivating the kind of dark aesthetic that people would come to know him for. LaVey bought the Victorian house at 6114 California Street and painted it black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> And as he said, the roots went all The way to hell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b> This is Blanche Barton…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> I am the current Magistra Templi Rex of the Church of Satan. I’ve been a member of the organization. Wow, almost 50 years now. And I was a high priestess for a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>She also was Anton LaVey’s romantic partner for 13 years, and they had a child together. Blanche, or Magistra Barton has written two books about the Church of Satan, including a biography of Anton LaVey called “The Secret Life of a Satanist,” and “The Church of Satan: A History of the World’s Most Notorious Religion.” Blanche says even before the house became a satanic sanctuary, like so many old San Francisco Victorians, the house itself had an interesting history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> It was Built in 1887, as far as the stories go, by a Scottish sea captain. And there were timbers in the lower levels that had come to San Francisco During the gold rush, and it had trapdoors and it had been used as a whorehouse and a speakeasy. It had a bar downstairs. It had secret passageways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>When he purchased the house in ‘56, LaVey lived there with his first wife and their young daughter, Karla. And as his interests in the supernatural deepened, he surrounded himself with a group of friends who were curious about the same things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>The Church of Satan, sort of grew out of what he called the Magic Circle. They were all intrigued by the weird and the unexplained. They started sort of having soirees and that sort of led into ritualizing, to see, practically, what happens or if anything happens. He started presenting seminars on the various topics that he was interested in from, vampires to cannibalism. Everything weird and wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[spooky music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> And in 1966, the people in that magic circle became the first members of the Church of Satan… picture it… a dark night, April 30th, Walpurgisnacht — a German holiday with Pagan origins, sometimes called “The night of the witches.” On that night Anton LaVey ritualistically shaved his head in the tradition of medieval executioners and dark magicians, adopting the look he’d have for the rest of his life, and declared 1966 to be the first year of the reign of Satan, thus founding America’s first official Satanic church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from there, it became a kind of hit…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[swinging music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey claimed that the church had hundreds of members in San Francisco and thousands throughout the world. He was a natural showman, with his shiny polished bald head, black goatee, and intense eyes. He wore all black, a long cloak, large rings, a pentagram medallion, and would make appearances wearing a hooded devil costume with little horns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He had a 500-pound pet lion named Togare who he’d raised from a cub, that slept in his bedroom at night. He invited reporters and the public inside the Black House to attend Satanic Mass…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Archival recording of Satanic Mass]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>…Where he’d invoke the devil while wielding a large sword or sometimes a boa constrictor while a nude woman was draped across the altar in the ritual chamber. He even married people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip of LaVey marrying couple:\u003c/b> “Former New York socialite Judith Chase and John Raymond were joined in unholy wedlock before a live altar, a nude redhead. Self-ordained sorcerer/minister Anton Levey presided at the San Francisco ceremony.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>The media absolutely ate it up. They started calling him the Black Pope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip of LaVey marrying couple:\u003c/b> “As the worst man looks on, the blessings of Lucifer and Beelzebub are invoked. The elaborate rite smacked of publicity, because next day the bride and groom secured a conventional wedding license”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey was charismatic and people seemed to gravitate to him. He became a kind of overnight celebrity. He was interviewed on national television, in magazines, people across the country were seeing his face. Even people who seemed to \u003ci>hate\u003c/i> him wanted to interview him… Like talk show host Joe Pyne…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> Are you married?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Oh yes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> You have any little devils?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Oh yes. I have two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Pyne: \u003c/b>Are you gonna raise them as satanic kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Certainly, but not to go around chopping people up as sacrificing human beings just to—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne: \u003c/b> That would be the greatest reward of all. If your kids some night would creep in and set fire to you and your lion, then dance around with pitchforks saying “Hey look at daddy, look at daddy!” (audience laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>But it seemed like all kinds of people were at least curious about the church. At one time, Sammy Davis Jr. and Liberace were linked to the Church of Satan. In 1966 the actress Jayne Mansfield met LaVey at a film festival in San Francisco and they began an unlikely friendship. There are numerous photos of them together, even performing a ritual at Mansfield’s home, though Mansfield said she was a Catholic and simply found LaVey intriguing. Some people blame her untimely death in a car crash a year later on an alleged curse LaVey put on the driver of the car… but who’s to say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, more controversy for Anton LeVey and the Satanic Panic… stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Anton LeVey was no stranger to bad press. The media was infatuated with his dark styling and outlandish comments … and LeVey seemed to relish the attention. Here’s Amanda Font again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Famously, in 1967 he baptized his then 3-year-old daughter Zeena into the church, dedicating her to Satan while her mother, LaVey’s 2nd partner Diane Hegarty, looked on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival clip of LaVey baptizing Zeena: \u003c/b>In the name of our great god, Satan Lucifer, I command thee to come forth an bestow these blessings upon us…(fades down and LaVey continues)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>So how much of LaVey’s highly theatrical image was serious? Well, while much of the ritualizing was akin to performance art, he was sincere in his philosophy. LaVey published “The Satanic Bible,” which by now has sold over a million copies, outlining his beliefs. The number one sin in Satanism is stupidity or willful ignorance. Herd conformity is also up there. He founded the Church of Satan as an alternative to what he saw as the repression of many other mainstream religions. Denying human nature, he said, was the real sin. Indulgence is key.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> No religion had ever been based on man’s carnal needs or his fleshly pursuits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is a clip of LaVey from a documentary filmed in those first few years of the church called “Satanis: The Devil’s Mass”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Not everyone was a fan, of course. He was telling people to embrace their animal nature… give in to their dark and lustful desires. Christian groups were appalled, obviously, and what about the neighbors? Here’s Blanche Barton again…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> One of the most amusing parts of the film, almost endearing, is when they go out and talk to the neighbors. And it’s pretty funny. You know, they say that they see the nude people dancing around in the front. And they saw the lion — eating something! Really quite, quite devilish and intriguing. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from ‘Satanis: The Devil’s Mass]\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 1:\u003c/b> He’s been in the neighborhood about 14 years and I always knew him as Tony. Just a nice ordinary — well — a little more dramatic than most men in the neighborhood, perhaps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 2:\u003c/b> Actually I don’t know what kind of man he is. As soon as you meet him, you think he’s a very very nice man, you know. I just had a feeling I can trust him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 3:\u003c/b> (grumbling) A very undesirable type of a neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Neighbors successfully petitioned to have LaVey’s pet lion relocated in the late 60s. He first landed in a zoo, then ended up at a big cat sanctuary in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for the goings on at the church, the nude rituals, wild events, blaspheming…well, freedom of religion! They weren’t doing anything illegal. Still, by the 70s, LaVey had stopped inviting the press in for all the rituals, instead focusing more on cultivating new members. He was living in a world of his own aesthetic making, which is a primary tenet of his satanic philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> Anton Levey was first and foremost an artist. He felt that aesthetics, whatever you are most drawn to, is what you should use. If you’re really excited about Frankenstein or if you are very drawn to technology. Because what you do in the ritual chamber is you’re evoking your emotions. Nothing comes from outside. It’s not coming from Satan or demons or anything. But we know the power that Humans have for creating a world and a life for yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey was making a living through the church, taking speaking engagements and charging initiation fees for new members. He also sometimes worked as an organist at local clubs. He spent more of his time making art, and music, another passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>He got the most joy out of playing. Keyboards because he could control the entire orchestra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Clip of Anton LaVey playing keyboards]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>He even pressed a record. Much of it includes recordings of early satanic masses, but also just, you know, some songs…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Anton LaVey singing a song called ‘Honolulu Baby’]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>His specific aesthetics were very much in the forties. A lot of the precepts of Satanism that he developed are very much, sort of, grounded in his creative self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Anton LaVey singing, music fades out]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> And then in the Eighties, there was the Satanic Panic going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> In the 1980s and through the 90s there was a national wave of fear that “Satanic Cults” were taking over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video: \u003c/b>Anton LaVey, perhaps the best-known Satanist in America compiled his years of cult knowledge into two books: the Satanic Bible, and the Satanic Rituals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is from an hourlong police training video from 1993, filmed in San Francisco, that was created to teach law enforcement how to spot satanic symbols and investigate “satanic crimes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video:\u003c/b> Now remember, not all satanic people commit crimes. Some of their activities may be perfectly legal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>It has all the highly stereotypical suggestions about what kinds of \u003ci>illegal\u003c/i> activities Satanists might engage in….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video: \u003c/b>Murder, which might include human sacrifice, or mass murders or cannibalism…(fade under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Some of them, frankly, are pretty macabre.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video:\u003c/b> Corpse theft, cemetery vandalism, black market sales of bones and skulls, black market baby selling…(fade under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Dramatic music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>To be clear, these things weren’t happening. It’s kind of funny now, especially set to\u003ci> that \u003c/i>music, but at that time the fear that these things \u003ci>were actually\u003c/i> happening was intense. Through the 80s and 90s upwards of 10-thousand unsubstantiated claims of ritualistic abuse by supposed satanic cults were made, though not directly against the Church of Satan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was happening in California, and all over the United States. It was like the witch trials all over again. There were numerous high-profile cases where people were convicted of satanic crimes, only to be exonerated after serving years, sometimes decades, in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> But at the same time, there was a real excitement. From younger people who were. Sort of discovering Satanism because of the satanic. Panic. You know, people were jumping up and down and. Saying, “Oh, this is so evil, this is so. Bad.” And yet they would. Publish the satanic statements and the young kids would say, Well, that seems pretty sensible. To me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Because, here’s the thing a lot of people get wrong about The Church of Satan. Satanists don’t worship the devil. They don’t drink blood, sacrifice babies or animals. They don’t even believe in the literal devil. They’re atheists. Satanism is more of a philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship. There is no dogma. You know, we honor animals. We honor children. It’s against self-deceit, kindness to those who deserve it rather than love wasted on ingrates. And the last one, of course, people get a chuckle out of because we say, we recognize that Satan is the best friend that the church has ever had…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> The devil is the guy that’s kept the church in business for many many years. Without him, and the concept of evil, where would the church be?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> Using a satanic adversary to represent an ideology of personal freedom and indulging without guilt… Blanche says it’s really more of a style choice. That’s what drew her in…She wanted to embrace her dark and sensual side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> I was looking for a philosophy that really represented women and a freedom for women and their lust. And their desires and their habits and their beauty and their wisdom. And I felt that most organized religions just did not have a voice for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Blanche had been following the Church of Satan through her teenage years and early 20s in Southern California, even coming to San Francisco to meet Anton LaVey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> From our first meeting we felt a draw to each other. And from that time we spent a lot of time on the phone and corresponding back and forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Less than a year later in 1984, just after graduating college, she moves to San Francisco at the age of 22. Shortly thereafter they became romantically involved. Blanche moved into the Black House in 1989.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>We had a wonderful life together. It had a rhythm. Of course, he was very nocturnal. So a lot of times we would get up at four or five in the evening and meet people. Play music, converse, maybe watch a Movie And then we would go to sleep around dawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Rituals were no longer public, but occasional private events. LaVey wasn’t willing to present the Church of Satan as just a curiosity anymore. In 1993, Blanche gave birth to their son, his third child, Satan Xerxes. At that point, LaVey was 63 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MUSIC\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Pyne:\u003c/b> So is it necessary to drive a stake through your heart to kill you, or would an ordinary knock on the head do it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> I will never die.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> You won’t?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> No, of course not. I’ve made arrangements. (audience ooohs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Anton LaVey died from heart disease at St. Mary’s in San Francisco on October 29th, 1997. Although his official death certificate lists his expiration date as Halloween.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what happens when the core of the Church of Satan, the man who was its central flame, gets snuffed out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, Blanche served as high priestess, the top leadership position, for a few years, before stepping down and handing the reins over to longtime member Peter Gilmore, who is still its high priest. The church left San Francisco and now has a new ‘Black House’ in New York state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey’s oldest daughter, Karla, was also high-priestess for a time but left the Church of Satan to start her own “First Satanic Church” in San Francisco. It’s a lot more exclusive and is known for throwing a great Black X-Mass concert in the city every year for the last couple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zeena, who was dedicated to Satan as a toddler, left Satanism entirely and became a Tantric Buddhist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His son, Satan Xerxes, isn’t involved at all and lives a private life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for the infamous Black House…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> It was an amazing house and it should have been preserved. And we did try.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey had been forced to sell the house to a friend in the early 90s though he was allowed to live there until his death. But the house was in disrepair, and the land was just too valuable. When efforts to find a preservation group willing to take it on failed, the property was sold and torn down in 2001.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What stands there now is a very normal-looking apartment building. No lingering signs that it was once a raucous den of sin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious producer Amanda Font.\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Brendan Willard, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Katrina Schwartz, Anna Casalme, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was first published October 20, 2023. We’re bringing it back for spooky season.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has long been associated with countercultural movements — whether it was the Beats of the 1950s, the hippies of the 1960s or the Black Panthers of the 1970s. But often overlooked in that long tradition of local subcultures is the emergence of America’s first official satanic church, which was founded right here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From its beginnings in a black Victorian house in the Richmond District, to its rapid growth that may have helped kick off a wave of “satanic panic” across the country, the story of the Church of Satan is filled with lust, intrigue and a fair amount of theatrics.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A born showman\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You can’t describe the \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/\">Church of Satan\u003c/a> without talking about the man who was its founder and central figure for decades, and who even posthumously is probably still the most iconic Satanist. Anton Szandor LaVey was born Howard Stanton Levey in Chicago in 1930. His family moved to the Bay Area when he was still a child, and he \u003ca href=\"https://web.archive.org/web/20120314024245/http://www.pacificsun.com/story.php?story_id=2313\">supposedly attended Tamalpais High School\u003c/a> in Mill Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From a young age, LaVey had an interest in magic, the supernatural, and the idea of trickery. In a 1993 documentary about him called “\u003ca href=\"https://mubi.com/en/us/films/speak-of-the-devil\">Speak of the Devil\u003c/a>,” LaVey describes how fascinated he was as a little kid when a friend showed him a copy of the Johnson and Smith Company’s \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Smith_Company\">novelty catalog\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[It was] filled with all of these jokes, tricks, and books on forbidden subjects,” LaVey said. “It had all the most horrid examples of man’s inhumanity to man, all of course presented in the form of good fun and entertainment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey got his own copy of the catalog, and ordered several novelty trick toys from it, including a ‘recorder box’ that would stab a sharp needle into the finger of an unsuspecting victim when a button was pushed. LaVey said he felt the trick was too mean to play on his own friends, but he didn’t feel bad about handing the toy over to a bully. That distinction was perhaps a precursor to the later development of his satanic philosophy, which advocates for bestowing kindness on those who deserve it, but seeking revenge on those who wrong you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That curious nature led LaVey to pursue somewhat unusual jobs. He claimed to have joined the circus at 16, where he said he’d worked with the big cats as a “cage boy.” Likewise, he said he’d done stints as a psychic investigator, paranormal researcher, and hypnotist. He also claimed to have briefly been a crime scene photographer for the SFPD, although there are no official records to back that up.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "‘All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.’",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Some have suggested that LaVey may have embellished some details of his early life, but \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/history-anton-szandor-lavey/\">The Church of Satan, on its site, contends it has evidence\u003c/a> to support his claims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey is also known to have worked as an organist and musician and performed at clubs around San Francisco beginning in the late 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the early 1950s, he was already cultivating the kind of dark aesthetic and occult interests that would lead him to found his church. In 1956, he purchased a Victorian house at 6114 California Street, a few blocks from the edge of the Presidio near the center of San Francisco’s Richmond neighborhood, and painted it black. The house had a brick staircase leading up to the front door, with a parlor and a bar downstairs. The room that would become the primary ritual chamber contained a large mantle piece, one that would be featured prominently in future ceremonies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Church of Satan sort of grew out of what he called the Magic Circle,” said Blanche Barton, who is the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/history-blanche-barton/\">Magistra Templi Rex\u003c/a> — a ranking member — of the Church of Satan, and one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Life-Satanist-Authorized-Biography/dp/1627310029/churchofsatan\">LaVey’s biographers\u003c/a> and a former lover, with whom he had his only son: Satan Xerxes Carnacki LaVey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton says LaVey surrounded himself with friends who shared similar interests. “They were all intrigued by the weird and the unexplained. They started having soirées and that sort of led into ritualizing to see, practically, what happens or if anything happens,” she said. “[LaVey] started presenting seminars on the various topics that he was interested in, from vampires to cannibalism — everything weird and wonderful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964952\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11964952 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-800x535.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white close up image of a man wearing a hooded cloak with devil horns. He is holding the point of a sword in front of his face. He casts a shadow onto the wall behind him, which features a large pentagram.\" width=\"800\" height=\"535\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1020x683.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1536x1028.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-2048x1370.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1920x1285.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey poses in his Black House in 1967. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘First year of the reign of Satan’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the spring of 1966, the Church of Satan was officially launched and its congregation was comprised of a handful of people in LaVey’s inner circle. They gathered in his home — which was by then known as “The Black House” — on the night of April 30 to celebrate Walpurgisnacht, a German holiday with pagan origins that’s sometimes called the “night of the witches.” The holiday is, ironically, on the eve of the Christian feast day of Saint Walpurga, which commemorates the saint who is believed to offer protection from witchcraft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey ritualistically shaved his head in the tradition of medieval executioners and dark magicians and declared 1966 to be the “first year of the reign of Satan.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To attract followers to the church outside of his exclusive group of like-minded parishioners, LaVey quickly began spreading word of his satanic philosophy through public speaking engagements and by inviting reporters — and whoever else had interest — into his Black House to witness satanic rituals and masses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rituals themselves were a highly theatrical affair, akin to performance art, featuring satanic iconography and moody organ music. LaVey would wear a hooded cloak with devil horns and a pentagram medallion while invoking the many names of the devil. He’d often wield a sword or sometimes a large snake while a nude woman was draped over an altar in the house’s ritual chamber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Blanche Barton says the aesthetics of Satanism were rooted in LaVey’s artistic nature: He was a painter, sculptor and musician, who just happened to have a penchant for dark things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Examples of the early rituals he led can be seen in the 1970 documentary, “\u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/satanis-the-devils-mass-1970\">Satanis: The Devil’s Mass,\u003c/a>” which chronicles the early years of the church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the most amusing parts of the film, almost endearing, is when they go out and talk to the neighbors,” Barton said. “And it’s pretty funny. You know, they say that they see the nude people dancing around in the front. And they saw the lion … eating something! Really quite devilish and intriguing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964956\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964956\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-800x759.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a man with dark curly hair and a goatee seated cross legged on the floor of a room. In front of him is a lion cub, which looks at the camera.\" width=\"800\" height=\"759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-800x759.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-1020x967.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-160x152.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-1536x1457.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey, founder and self-proclaimed high priest of the Church of Satan, is photographed at home in San Francisco with his pet lion on June 26, 1964. \u003ccite>(Art Frisch/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That’s right — LaVey actually owned a 500-pound pet lion named Togare, who he’d raised from a cub, and who lived with him in the Black House and slept in his bedroom at night. In the late 1960s, when his neighbors successfully petitioned to have the lion removed, Lavey ended up giving his oversized pet to actress Tippi Hedren, who starred in “The Birds,” and had founded (and apparently still lives on) \u003ca href=\"https://www.shambala.org/about.htm\">a big cat sanctuary\u003c/a> in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey soon became a well-known personality throughout California and increasingly nationwide, largely supporting himself by collecting church initiation fees and doing paid public speaking engagements. He was frequently interviewed in print publications and on TV, including on \u003cem>The Tonight Show\u003c/em>. Even people who seemed to despise his ideology wanted to talk to him — as is evident in this interview with antagonistic talk show host Joe Pyne:\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/Kqb54soKU8M'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/Kqb54soKU8M'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A wide variety of people were drawn to LaVey’s dark charm and hedonistic philosophy that promoted a guilt-free, indulgent lifestyle. The church is rumored to have drawn in several notable celebrities in its early years, including Sammy Davis Jr. and Liberace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey also \u003ca href=\"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4718112/Hollywood-Satanist-Bizarre-Jayne-Mansfield-Anton-LaVey.html\">developed a friendship\u003c/a> with blonde bombshell Jayne Mansfield, an actress, nightclub entertainer and Playboy playmate, and the mother of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit star Mariska Hargitay. There was even speculation that Mansfield’s death in 1967, a year after meeting LaVey, was the result of a curse he is believed to have placed on the driver of the car.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not surprisingly, LaVey openly courted controversy. In 1967, he \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/SFGate/videos/anton-lavey-oversees-a-satanic-wedding-ceremony-in-san-francisco/10156878589425594/\">publicized and officiated a satanic wedding\u003c/a> between a New York socialite and a journalist. He also performed satanic funerals for servicemen in the Bay Area, at the request of their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time he started the church, LaVey had divorced his first wife and became involved with another woman, with whom he had a daughter, his second child. In 1967, he baptized the 3-year-old girl into the church, dedicating her to Satan as she sat in a hooded robe next to the nude altar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964962\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964962\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-800x923.jpg\" alt=\"A man in a hooded devil costume kneels in front of a large brick fireplace. A blonde woman kneels to his right. They are both reaching up towards a small girl wearing a hooded robe, who sits on the edge of the mantle, over which is draped a nude woman. A large pentagram featuring the head of Baphomet is painted on the wall behind them.\" width=\"800\" height=\"923\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-800x923.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1020x1176.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-160x185.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1332x1536.jpg 1332w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1776x2048.jpg 1776w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton Szandor LaVey, the leader of the First Church of Satan, taps his gum-chewing 3-year-old daughter, Zeena Galatea LaVey, on the head with a sword during “baptism ceremonies” in San Francisco on May 23, 1967. A naked woman reclines on the altar during the anti-religious ceremony. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Satanic Bible\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1969, LaVey published \u003ca href=\"https://www.harvard.com/book/the_satanic_bible/\">The Satanic Bible\u003c/a>, outlining his philosophy and detailing the official tenets of his church. At the core are \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/nine-satanic-statements/\">the 9 Satanic Statements\u003c/a>, the last of which is: “Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here LaVey refers to the Christian Church, which he said he found hypocritical for its denial of human nature. “No religion had ever been based on man’s carnal needs or his fleshly pursuits,” he said, in a 1970 interview. “All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The word Satan means adversary, he explained. “I’m supplying a much-needed opposition.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most of the nine statements begin with “Satan represents…” Many people incorrectly assume that Satanists worship the devil. In fact, the Church of Satan’s official position is that the devil doesn’t exist at all. It’s an atheistic religion — really more like a philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship,” Blanche Barton, his biographer and former lover, said. “There is no dogma.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey’s philosophy grew in popularity throughout the 1970s. But even as the church continued to openly insist that it didn’t worship or believe in the devil, a centuries-old fear inevitably came bubbling to the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The satanic panic\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beginning in the 1980s, and lasting through the 1990s, LaVey’s church spurred a national wave of fear and conspiracy theories around “satanic cults,” resulting in over 12,000 unsubstantiated claims of satanic ritual abuse and crimes, many centered around children, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/us/satanic-panic.html\">according to the New York Times\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A series of high-profile court cases drew national headlines during this period of “satanic panic.” One notorious case in the early 1980s — the \u003ca href=\"https://famous-trials.com/mcmartin/902-home\">McMartin Preschool trial\u003c/a> in Manhattan Beach in Southern California — originated from a mother’s claim that her son had been sexually abused by his preschool, which she accused of being run by Satanists.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>That incited a set of increasingly bizarre claims of satanic child abuse and led to hundreds of children being interrogated by state investigators over allegations that they had been forced to do things like drink the blood of sacrificed animals or dig up graves. The mother who made the initial claim was later found to be prone to schizophrenic delusions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tapes of the children’s interviews were reviewed by a clinical psychologist who said they were coercive and extremely suggestive, leading children to give the answers the interviewers wanted to hear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two separate trials over the course of seven years resulted in no convictions. And at a cost of $15 million, it became the most expensive criminal trial in U.S. history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other similar cases resulted in actual convictions, a large number of them in the state of Texas. Most, however, were ultimately \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/08/24/accused-of-satanism-they-spent-21-years-in-prison-they-were-just-declared-innocent-and-were-paid-millions/\">overturned\u003c/a> due to lack of evidence, sometimes \u003ca href=\"https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/10/26/how-satanic-panic-led-a-10-year-old-son-to-falsely-accuse-his-father/\">decades later\u003c/a> after the convicted parties had served \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpr.org/criminal-justice/2023-04-11/after-30-years-a-father-is-exonerated-in-satanic-panic-case\">years in prison\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Accusations weren’t lobbed directly at the Church of Satan, but the group was sometimes cited by police as having an influence on the spread of the ideology — as is the case in this \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/LawEnforcementGuideToSatanicCults1994VHSOccultHilarity\">police training video\u003c/a>. Filmed in San Francisco in the early 1990s, the video includes stereotypical claims about crimes Satanists might commit, from cannibalism and necrophilia to corpse theft and black market baby sales — despite any evidence of the church ever doing or condoning such things.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Fate of the Black House\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Blanche Barton moved to San Francisco in 1984 at the age of 22 and became romantically involved with LaVey that same year. Five years later, Barton moved into the Black House with LaVey, who sold it to pay off debts, but continued renting it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton says, like so many other San Francisco Victorians, the house itself had a long and interesting history dating back to its construction in 1887.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had trapdoors and it had been used as a [brothel] and a speakeasy,” she said, “It had a bar downstairs. It had secret passageways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964959\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964959\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-800x532.jpg\" alt=\"A mean in a hooded devil costume and cloak emerges from a secret passage way in the fireplace of a a room in his house. There are bookshelves above hi, and a human skeleton mounted in a large display case on the wall to the right.\" width=\"800\" height=\"532\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan, rises out from a hidden corridor behind a false fireplace in his study in 1967. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>LaVey died from heart disease on Oct. 29, 1997, at the age of 67, although according to an \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1997/11/09/anton-s-lavey-dies-at-67/c546b323-acb9-463e-ad96-7da298f9e4d8/\">obituary in \u003cem>The Washington Post\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, his death certificate listed him as dying several days later, on Halloween. He left behind three children, all from different women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leadership of the church was eventually turned over to longtime church member Peter Gilmore, who still serves as its high priest. The church’s headquarters have since been moved to New York state, where Gilmore and his partner Peggy Nadramia built a new “Black House.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton said she and a group of followers attempted to raise money to buy LaVey’s house back so that it could be preserved as a museum, but those efforts ultimately failed, and the house was eventually sold and torn down in 2001.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so much a part of his soul,” said Barton, “And as he said, ‘The roots went all the way to hell.’ So he was able to be there until the last, which was great.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What now stands in its place is a rather normal-looking beige apartment building, devoid of any signs that it was once the site of a satanic sanctuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>If you visited San Francisco’s Richmond District before 2001, and made your way to 6114 California Street, you would have found yourself facing a tall Victorian house that was entirely \u003ci>black.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An attention grabbing paint scheme for sure. But it’s what happened inside The Black House that truly intrigued curious San Francsicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was the first headquarters of the Church of Satan … and the personal home of its founder Anton LaVey. His theatrical nature, and controversial beliefs, turned him into a kind of celebrity… here he is in an interview in 1970…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Pyne:\u003c/b> Who ordained you a atanic priest?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey:\u003c/b> I would say, probably, I received the call. Just as any fundamentalist—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> Well most of us do, but we fight it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Why fight it? This is, of course, the whole principle of my religion. All—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> What do you mean you received the call? You mean one day the devil said “Go out, Anton Szandor LaVey, and give people hell!” [audience laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> That’s about it. That’s about it. Because people like to have a hell of a time, don’t they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Spooky music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">OAP: This is Bay Curious, I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Should I say it? I have to say it. Spooky season is here… and if you’ve been listening to the show for a while you know we love to bring you stories with a certain vibe around this time of year. Today, we are dusting off an episode from 2023 that explores what was going on inside that Black House. And who, really, was Anton LaVey? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[spooky laugh]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b> We sent producer Amanda Font to make a deal with the devil…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>The Bay Area is often associated with countercultural movements. You had the beat poets of the 1950s getting arrested for protesting censorship, the free-loving hippies of the 1960s dropping acid in the park, and the Black Panthers in the 1970s fighting back against institutional racism. What you don’t often hear about alongside those other cultural phenomena is that the late 1960s in San Francisco also gave rise to the notorious, indulgent, and wickedly provocative Church of Satan. [\u003ci>demonic vocal effect on “Church of Satan”]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>In this case, when we use the word “church,” it might not be exactly what you’re picturing. They do describe themselves as a religious organization, but there aren’t a lot of physical church buildings associated with Satanism. It’s more like an organization of like-minded people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, the black heart of the church, and perhaps still the most recognizable Satanist, was its founder Anton Szandor LaVey. He was born Howard Stanton Levey in Chicago in 1930, and later his family moved to the Bay Area. From a young age, he had a fascination with the supernatural, magic and the idea of trickery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]: \u003c/b>When I was about 5 years old, I had a friend that had a catalog from the Johnson and Smith company, filled with all of these jokes, tricks, and books on forbidden subjects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is a clip of LaVey from a 1993 documentary about him called “Speak of the Devil.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> It had all the most horrid examples of man’s inhumanity to man, all of course presented in the form of good fun and entertainment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Like a toy “recorder box,” that, when you pushed a button, would stab a sharp needle into the finger of an unsuspecting victim. LaVey recalls he didn’t want to play such a mean trick on his friends… but he didn’t mind if it was a kid who was a bully. A similar thought came into play later, when he developed his satanic philosophy. It’s big on the idea of being kind to those who deserve it, but seeking revenge on those who wrong you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As he got older, LaVey’s curious nature led him to pursue somewhat unusual jobs. In his early life, he claimed to have worked in a circus with big cats, as a psychic investigator, an organist, a hypnotist, and to have been a police photographer for the SFPD (although there are no official records to back that last one.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1956, a decade before he officially created the Church of Satan, he was already cultivating the kind of dark aesthetic that people would come to know him for. LaVey bought the Victorian house at 6114 California Street and painted it black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> And as he said, the roots went all The way to hell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b> This is Blanche Barton…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> I am the current Magistra Templi Rex of the Church of Satan. I’ve been a member of the organization. Wow, almost 50 years now. And I was a high priestess for a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>She also was Anton LaVey’s romantic partner for 13 years, and they had a child together. Blanche, or Magistra Barton has written two books about the Church of Satan, including a biography of Anton LaVey called “The Secret Life of a Satanist,” and “The Church of Satan: A History of the World’s Most Notorious Religion.” Blanche says even before the house became a satanic sanctuary, like so many old San Francisco Victorians, the house itself had an interesting history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> It was Built in 1887, as far as the stories go, by a Scottish sea captain. And there were timbers in the lower levels that had come to San Francisco During the gold rush, and it had trapdoors and it had been used as a whorehouse and a speakeasy. It had a bar downstairs. It had secret passageways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>When he purchased the house in ‘56, LaVey lived there with his first wife and their young daughter, Karla. And as his interests in the supernatural deepened, he surrounded himself with a group of friends who were curious about the same things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>The Church of Satan, sort of grew out of what he called the Magic Circle. They were all intrigued by the weird and the unexplained. They started sort of having soirees and that sort of led into ritualizing, to see, practically, what happens or if anything happens. He started presenting seminars on the various topics that he was interested in from, vampires to cannibalism. Everything weird and wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[spooky music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> And in 1966, the people in that magic circle became the first members of the Church of Satan… picture it… a dark night, April 30th, Walpurgisnacht — a German holiday with Pagan origins, sometimes called “The night of the witches.” On that night Anton LaVey ritualistically shaved his head in the tradition of medieval executioners and dark magicians, adopting the look he’d have for the rest of his life, and declared 1966 to be the first year of the reign of Satan, thus founding America’s first official Satanic church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from there, it became a kind of hit…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[swinging music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey claimed that the church had hundreds of members in San Francisco and thousands throughout the world. He was a natural showman, with his shiny polished bald head, black goatee, and intense eyes. He wore all black, a long cloak, large rings, a pentagram medallion, and would make appearances wearing a hooded devil costume with little horns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He had a 500-pound pet lion named Togare who he’d raised from a cub, that slept in his bedroom at night. He invited reporters and the public inside the Black House to attend Satanic Mass…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Archival recording of Satanic Mass]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>…Where he’d invoke the devil while wielding a large sword or sometimes a boa constrictor while a nude woman was draped across the altar in the ritual chamber. He even married people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip of LaVey marrying couple:\u003c/b> “Former New York socialite Judith Chase and John Raymond were joined in unholy wedlock before a live altar, a nude redhead. Self-ordained sorcerer/minister Anton Levey presided at the San Francisco ceremony.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>The media absolutely ate it up. They started calling him the Black Pope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip of LaVey marrying couple:\u003c/b> “As the worst man looks on, the blessings of Lucifer and Beelzebub are invoked. The elaborate rite smacked of publicity, because next day the bride and groom secured a conventional wedding license”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey was charismatic and people seemed to gravitate to him. He became a kind of overnight celebrity. He was interviewed on national television, in magazines, people across the country were seeing his face. Even people who seemed to \u003ci>hate\u003c/i> him wanted to interview him… Like talk show host Joe Pyne…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> Are you married?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Oh yes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> You have any little devils?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Oh yes. I have two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Pyne: \u003c/b>Are you gonna raise them as satanic kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Certainly, but not to go around chopping people up as sacrificing human beings just to—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne: \u003c/b> That would be the greatest reward of all. If your kids some night would creep in and set fire to you and your lion, then dance around with pitchforks saying “Hey look at daddy, look at daddy!” (audience laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>But it seemed like all kinds of people were at least curious about the church. At one time, Sammy Davis Jr. and Liberace were linked to the Church of Satan. In 1966 the actress Jayne Mansfield met LaVey at a film festival in San Francisco and they began an unlikely friendship. There are numerous photos of them together, even performing a ritual at Mansfield’s home, though Mansfield said she was a Catholic and simply found LaVey intriguing. Some people blame her untimely death in a car crash a year later on an alleged curse LaVey put on the driver of the car… but who’s to say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, more controversy for Anton LeVey and the Satanic Panic… stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Anton LeVey was no stranger to bad press. The media was infatuated with his dark styling and outlandish comments … and LeVey seemed to relish the attention. Here’s Amanda Font again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Famously, in 1967 he baptized his then 3-year-old daughter Zeena into the church, dedicating her to Satan while her mother, LaVey’s 2nd partner Diane Hegarty, looked on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival clip of LaVey baptizing Zeena: \u003c/b>In the name of our great god, Satan Lucifer, I command thee to come forth an bestow these blessings upon us…(fades down and LaVey continues)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>So how much of LaVey’s highly theatrical image was serious? Well, while much of the ritualizing was akin to performance art, he was sincere in his philosophy. LaVey published “The Satanic Bible,” which by now has sold over a million copies, outlining his beliefs. The number one sin in Satanism is stupidity or willful ignorance. Herd conformity is also up there. He founded the Church of Satan as an alternative to what he saw as the repression of many other mainstream religions. Denying human nature, he said, was the real sin. Indulgence is key.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> No religion had ever been based on man’s carnal needs or his fleshly pursuits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is a clip of LaVey from a documentary filmed in those first few years of the church called “Satanis: The Devil’s Mass”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Not everyone was a fan, of course. He was telling people to embrace their animal nature… give in to their dark and lustful desires. Christian groups were appalled, obviously, and what about the neighbors? Here’s Blanche Barton again…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> One of the most amusing parts of the film, almost endearing, is when they go out and talk to the neighbors. And it’s pretty funny. You know, they say that they see the nude people dancing around in the front. And they saw the lion — eating something! Really quite, quite devilish and intriguing. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from ‘Satanis: The Devil’s Mass]\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 1:\u003c/b> He’s been in the neighborhood about 14 years and I always knew him as Tony. Just a nice ordinary — well — a little more dramatic than most men in the neighborhood, perhaps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 2:\u003c/b> Actually I don’t know what kind of man he is. As soon as you meet him, you think he’s a very very nice man, you know. I just had a feeling I can trust him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 3:\u003c/b> (grumbling) A very undesirable type of a neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Neighbors successfully petitioned to have LaVey’s pet lion relocated in the late 60s. He first landed in a zoo, then ended up at a big cat sanctuary in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for the goings on at the church, the nude rituals, wild events, blaspheming…well, freedom of religion! They weren’t doing anything illegal. Still, by the 70s, LaVey had stopped inviting the press in for all the rituals, instead focusing more on cultivating new members. He was living in a world of his own aesthetic making, which is a primary tenet of his satanic philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> Anton Levey was first and foremost an artist. He felt that aesthetics, whatever you are most drawn to, is what you should use. If you’re really excited about Frankenstein or if you are very drawn to technology. Because what you do in the ritual chamber is you’re evoking your emotions. Nothing comes from outside. It’s not coming from Satan or demons or anything. But we know the power that Humans have for creating a world and a life for yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey was making a living through the church, taking speaking engagements and charging initiation fees for new members. He also sometimes worked as an organist at local clubs. He spent more of his time making art, and music, another passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>He got the most joy out of playing. Keyboards because he could control the entire orchestra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Clip of Anton LaVey playing keyboards]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>He even pressed a record. Much of it includes recordings of early satanic masses, but also just, you know, some songs…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Anton LaVey singing a song called ‘Honolulu Baby’]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>His specific aesthetics were very much in the forties. A lot of the precepts of Satanism that he developed are very much, sort of, grounded in his creative self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Anton LaVey singing, music fades out]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> And then in the Eighties, there was the Satanic Panic going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> In the 1980s and through the 90s there was a national wave of fear that “Satanic Cults” were taking over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video: \u003c/b>Anton LaVey, perhaps the best-known Satanist in America compiled his years of cult knowledge into two books: the Satanic Bible, and the Satanic Rituals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is from an hourlong police training video from 1993, filmed in San Francisco, that was created to teach law enforcement how to spot satanic symbols and investigate “satanic crimes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video:\u003c/b> Now remember, not all satanic people commit crimes. Some of their activities may be perfectly legal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>It has all the highly stereotypical suggestions about what kinds of \u003ci>illegal\u003c/i> activities Satanists might engage in….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video: \u003c/b>Murder, which might include human sacrifice, or mass murders or cannibalism…(fade under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Some of them, frankly, are pretty macabre.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video:\u003c/b> Corpse theft, cemetery vandalism, black market sales of bones and skulls, black market baby selling…(fade under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Dramatic music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>To be clear, these things weren’t happening. It’s kind of funny now, especially set to\u003ci> that \u003c/i>music, but at that time the fear that these things \u003ci>were actually\u003c/i> happening was intense. Through the 80s and 90s upwards of 10-thousand unsubstantiated claims of ritualistic abuse by supposed satanic cults were made, though not directly against the Church of Satan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was happening in California, and all over the United States. It was like the witch trials all over again. There were numerous high-profile cases where people were convicted of satanic crimes, only to be exonerated after serving years, sometimes decades, in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> But at the same time, there was a real excitement. From younger people who were. Sort of discovering Satanism because of the satanic. Panic. You know, people were jumping up and down and. Saying, “Oh, this is so evil, this is so. Bad.” And yet they would. Publish the satanic statements and the young kids would say, Well, that seems pretty sensible. To me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Because, here’s the thing a lot of people get wrong about The Church of Satan. Satanists don’t worship the devil. They don’t drink blood, sacrifice babies or animals. They don’t even believe in the literal devil. They’re atheists. Satanism is more of a philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship. There is no dogma. You know, we honor animals. We honor children. It’s against self-deceit, kindness to those who deserve it rather than love wasted on ingrates. And the last one, of course, people get a chuckle out of because we say, we recognize that Satan is the best friend that the church has ever had…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> The devil is the guy that’s kept the church in business for many many years. Without him, and the concept of evil, where would the church be?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> Using a satanic adversary to represent an ideology of personal freedom and indulging without guilt… Blanche says it’s really more of a style choice. That’s what drew her in…She wanted to embrace her dark and sensual side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> I was looking for a philosophy that really represented women and a freedom for women and their lust. And their desires and their habits and their beauty and their wisdom. And I felt that most organized religions just did not have a voice for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Blanche had been following the Church of Satan through her teenage years and early 20s in Southern California, even coming to San Francisco to meet Anton LaVey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> From our first meeting we felt a draw to each other. And from that time we spent a lot of time on the phone and corresponding back and forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Less than a year later in 1984, just after graduating college, she moves to San Francisco at the age of 22. Shortly thereafter they became romantically involved. Blanche moved into the Black House in 1989.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>We had a wonderful life together. It had a rhythm. Of course, he was very nocturnal. So a lot of times we would get up at four or five in the evening and meet people. Play music, converse, maybe watch a Movie And then we would go to sleep around dawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Rituals were no longer public, but occasional private events. LaVey wasn’t willing to present the Church of Satan as just a curiosity anymore. In 1993, Blanche gave birth to their son, his third child, Satan Xerxes. At that point, LaVey was 63 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MUSIC\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Pyne:\u003c/b> So is it necessary to drive a stake through your heart to kill you, or would an ordinary knock on the head do it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> I will never die.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> You won’t?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> No, of course not. I’ve made arrangements. (audience ooohs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Anton LaVey died from heart disease at St. Mary’s in San Francisco on October 29th, 1997. Although his official death certificate lists his expiration date as Halloween.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what happens when the core of the Church of Satan, the man who was its central flame, gets snuffed out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, Blanche served as high priestess, the top leadership position, for a few years, before stepping down and handing the reins over to longtime member Peter Gilmore, who is still its high priest. The church left San Francisco and now has a new ‘Black House’ in New York state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey’s oldest daughter, Karla, was also high-priestess for a time but left the Church of Satan to start her own “First Satanic Church” in San Francisco. It’s a lot more exclusive and is known for throwing a great Black X-Mass concert in the city every year for the last couple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zeena, who was dedicated to Satan as a toddler, left Satanism entirely and became a Tantric Buddhist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His son, Satan Xerxes, isn’t involved at all and lives a private life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for the infamous Black House…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> It was an amazing house and it should have been preserved. And we did try.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey had been forced to sell the house to a friend in the early 90s though he was allowed to live there until his death. But the house was in disrepair, and the land was just too valuable. When efforts to find a preservation group willing to take it on failed, the property was sold and torn down in 2001.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What stands there now is a very normal-looking apartment building. No lingering signs that it was once a raucous den of sin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious producer Amanda Font.\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Brendan Willard, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Katrina Schwartz, Anna Casalme, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "halloween-things-to-do-october-bay-area-outdoors-hikes-spooky-season",
"title": "Tunnels, Ghosts, Bats and Boats: 6 Ideas for Spooky Season Outdoors in the Bay",
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"headTitle": "Tunnels, Ghosts, Bats and Boats: 6 Ideas for Spooky Season Outdoors in the Bay | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>With Halloween around the corner, and spooky season in full swing, now is the best time to explore the Bay Area’s darkest, eeriest and downright scariest spots outdoors that might make you squirm — or at least elicit some pleasing chills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From haunted-feeling hikes and tunnels to neighborhood ghost tours and creepy critters, keep reading for our pre-Halloween outdoor recommendations for making the most of the season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jump straight to where to discover:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Localcemeteries\">Local cemeteries\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Batsinnature\">Bats in nature\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Tunnelsandcaves\">Tunnels and caves\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Bayareaghosts\">Bay Area ghosts\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Localcritters\">Local critters\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Spookyphotoshootopportunities\">Spooky photoshoot opportunities\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Batsinnature\">\u003c/a>Go bat watching\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While this year’s UC Berkeley Botanical Garden’s “\u003ca href=\"https://botanicalgarden.berkeley.edu/event/bay-area-bats/\">Bay Area Bats” event\u003c/a> is already full, you still have the chance to see the spooky creatures yourself in the wild.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The closest place to spot bats is near Livermore at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/7130/habitats-for-bats-kids-build-homes-for-east-bays-thriving-bat-population\">Del Valle Regional Park\u003c/a>, where hundreds of these animals munch on insects all night long. \u003ca href=\"https://www.7x7.com/where-to-go-bat-watching-in-the-bay-area-2096256783.html\">Some say\u003c/a> they can even be spotted in San Francisco, in Golden Gate Park at Blue Heron Lake or even at Lake Merced.[aside postID=arts_13979698 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/09/UCB-hike-1536x1054.png']And while \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=465\">Olompali State Historic Park\u003c/a> in Novato is known for its annual “\u003ca href=\"https://visitnovato.com/event/olompali-bat-night/\">Bat Night\u003c/a>” event in summer, with eight types of bats living in the park, you stand a good chance of seeing them here in the fall too.\u003cbr>\nAnd don’t forget about the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/22006/science-on-the-spot-bats-beneath-us\">iconic bats of Yolo County\u003c/a> near Davis, where the animals take flight at sunset every evening from underneath the Yolo Causeway bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re willing to travel even further into true bat territory, consider making the trip to \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/nature/bats.htm\">Pinnacles National Park\u003c/a> in the Central Valley. There, you can explore caves where bats hibernate and raise their young. Just be sure to \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/pinn/planyourvisit/cavestatus.htm\">check on the status\u003c/a> of the caves before you go, as they close seasonally to protect the creatures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pro tip: To maximize your chances of seeing bats, remember they’re nocturnal and love water (especially the insects that lakes attract). But don’t ever touch the animals: not only are they a \u003ca href=\"https://www.smcmvcd.org/bats\">protected species in California\u003c/a>, they’re more likely than other animals to \u003ca href=\"https://www.science.org/content/article/bats-really-do-harbor-more-dangerous-viruses-other-species\">carry diseases\u003c/a> that are dangerous to humans.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Localcemeteries\">\u003c/a>Visit a cemetery (respectfully)\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area is home to the city of Colma, known affectionately as the “City of Souls,” owing to the fact that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/10779164/why-are-so-many-dead-people-in-colma-and-so-few-in-san-francisco\">most of San Francisco’s graves were relocated there \u003c/a>in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. So if you’re looking to roam and reflect among the headstones, head to any one of the city’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.colma.ca.gov/cemetery-contacts-locations/\">16 cemeteries\u003c/a>: the oldest and largest of which is the \u003ca href=\"https://sfcathcems.org/holy-cross-colma/\">Holy Cross Catholic Cemetery\u003c/a>, spanning 300 acres.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also a number of other atmospheric and unique cemeteries across the city and Bay Area. In the city proper, you can still visit the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cem.va.gov/cems/nchp/sanfrancisco.asp\">San Francisco National Cemetery\u003c/a> in the Presidio. Or, for a birds-eye view, head to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054079/best-hikes-san-francisco-presidio-views-trails-hiking\">Cemetery Overlook\u003c/a> for unobstructed views of the Golden Gate Bridge — a perfect hike on a foggy evening at dusk, even when the bridge itself is shrouded by mist. There’s also a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12009656/the-presidio-pet-cemetery-a-resting-place-for-furry-friends\">pet cemetery in the Presidio\u003c/a>, where you can visit with companions of the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12009678\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12009678\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Tombstones in a cemetery.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tombstones at the Presidio of San Francisco Pet Cemetery in San Francisco on Oct. 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11914175/the-only-place-you-can-leave-your-heart-forever-in-san-francisco-the-inner-richmonds-palace-of-ashes\">The San Francisco Columbarium\u003c/a> in the Laurel Heights neighborhood is open to the public and adorned with stained glass, a soaring rotunda and several sculptures and fountains. More than 8,000 people are interned there, including gay rights leader and politician \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/harvey-milk\">Harvey Milk\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For more cemeteries with views, try the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainviewcemetery.org/\">Piedmont cemetery\u003c/a> or \u003ca href=\"https://www.skylawnmemorialpark.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_ven=ib&utm_kw=brand&campid=22372724787&agid=175776669583&adid=741873217167&term=kwd-2225399559821&network=g&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22372724787&gbraid=0AAAAACxqlIXDxxpsVl-S54TzMxp5sMZWT&gclid=CjwKCAjwu9fHBhAWEiwAzGRC_804iEaFlkxth5pB8aHaZsNpBmsawf4sH87kIv6tDzSrAbbp2xV0ARoCNP8QAvD_BwE\">Skylawn Memorial Park\u003c/a> on Skyline Drive near Half Moon Bay. Or, if you’re feeling more adventurous, \u003ca href=\"https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/nortonville-and-black-diamond-loop\">take an almost-6-mile hike\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/black_diamond_rose_hill_brochure.pdf\">Rose Hill Cemetery\u003c/a> in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/black-diamond\">Black Diamond Mines Regional Preserve\u003c/a> in Antioch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just remember: If you’re planning on visiting any of these cemeteries, be sure to respect the sanctity of these spaces — these are the resting places of peoples’ loved ones, after all. In that vein, make sure you’re aware of other visitors who may be visiting to honor passed family and friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Tunnelsandcaves\">\u003c/a>Explore local tunnels — safely\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Eager to go underground? And no — we’re not talking about the BART or Muni tunnels (which you should obviously never venture into, except while riding transit).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Bay Area has fewer mysterious tunnels than \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2014/may/30/underground-cities-in-pictures\">other, older metropolitan areas\u003c/a>, what we \u003cem>do \u003c/em>have are coastlines — with cliff areas where tunnels open up seasonally, like those that tend to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12041355/what-is-that-massive-tunnel-on-the-beach-south-of-fort-funston\">crop up around Fort Funston\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/obscuresf/article/historic-tunnel-at-SF-Sutro-Baths-16988820.php\">Sutro Baths\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_10936320\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 3000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/04/23992229385_6dd9eac96c_o-e1761074667713.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10936320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/04/23992229385_6dd9eac96c_o-e1761074667713.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"3000\" height=\"2000\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Once a thriving water park, the Sutro Baths are now just ruins. \u003ccite>(Derek Bruff )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If you’re looking for a longer hike, in the East Bay, check out the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/indian-joe-nature-trail-to-flag-hilltrail-sunol-regional-wilderness.pdf\">Indian Joe Cave Rocks\u003c/a> at \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/sunol\">Sunol Wilderness Regional Preserve,\u003c/a> popular with hikers and climbers for their basalt rocks that tower overhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or head to the Marin Headlands, where old bunkers like \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/battery-townsley.htm\">Battery Townsley\u003c/a> hid top-secret guns during World War I. The battery is open to the public for tours from 12 p.m. to 4 p.m. on the first Sunday of every month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We cannot emphasize this enough — if you’re going to go tunnel exploring, be safe. If you’re on the coast, always research the tides beforehand, as you don’t want to ever get stuck in or near a tunnel. Always bring a light and don’t trespass — \u003cem>especially \u003c/em>into \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11782405/tunnels-under-san-francisco-inside-the-dark-dangerous-world-of-the-sewers\">San Francisco’s vast sewer network\u003c/a>, which can contain lethal levels of toxic gases.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Bayareaghosts\">\u003c/a>Find ghosts\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13936965/san-francisco-ghost-tours-true-crime-history-halloween\">Ghost tours in the Bay Area are aplenty,\u003c/a> but this one in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfghosthunt.com/\">San Francisco’s Pacific Heights\u003c/a> neighborhood is especially apt for those who want their ghosts with a hefty side of history.[aside postID=arts_13982172 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/carrie.jpg']You won’t just learn about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11700225/the-ghost-of-a-legend-how-a-san-francisco-civil-rights-icon-was-made-a-monster\">the supposed hauntings of the area \u003c/a>— you’ll also become immersed in the complex lives of the early San Franciscans who are rumored to still occupy the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You could also opt to make contact with the spirit world all by yourself. The \u003ca href=\"https://uss-hornet.org/\">USS Hornet\u003c/a>, once a World War II Navy aircraft carrier that was also used to recover the Apollo 11 and 12 crafts, is now a museum docked in Alameda, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12011685/the-uss-hornet-in-alameda-is-a-destination-for-paranormal-enthusiasts-and-you-can-spend-the-night-there\">which is also apparently quite haunted\u003c/a>. You can also stay inside it overnight … if you dare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13879301/5-haunted-bay-area-locations-to-scare-people-into-social-distancing\">Another possible haunted stay\u003c/a>? \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2023/09/21/berkeley-claremont-hotel-ghost-tour-halloween/\">The Claremont Hotel\u003c/a> in Berkeley, where \u003ca href=\"https://www.hauntedrooms.com/california/haunted-places/haunted-hotels/claremont-hotel-berkeley\">reports \u003c/a>of children crying, smells of smoke rumored to be from \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/11/04/claremont-hotel-is-a-towering-east-bay-landmark/\">the 1901 fire that burned down the original hotel structure\u003c/a> and ghostly apparitions have all been reported. The Claremont is now offering \u003ca href=\"https://claremontresortandclub.com/claremont_event/haunted-history-tours/\">haunted tours\u003c/a> during the month of October.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Localcritters\">\u003c/a>Hang out with spooky critters\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Eager to spend the fall season with some uncanny creatures? The \u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbayvivarium.org/\">East Bay Vivarium\u003c/a> is your best bet for reptiles and other creepy crawlers. While their \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13977949/two-headed-kingsnake-berkeley-east-bay-vivarium-angel-zeke-birthday\">two-headed kingsnake recently passed away,\u003c/a> there are plenty of other snakes and slithery animals to behold at the Berkeley reptile shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Out in the wild, \u003ca href=\"https://lindsaywildlife.org/events/tarantula-scorpion-hike-2/\">hikers recommend Mt. Diablo\u003c/a> for tarantula, scorpion and reptile viewing. Mid-October is the peak of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1984392/its-tarantula-mating-season-in-the-bay-area-heres-where-to-see-some-fuzzy-friends\">tarantula mating season\u003c/a>, so head to grassy oak woodlands like Del Valle, Sunol or \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=561\">Henry Coe State Park\u003c/a> to catch a glimpse of the creepy crawlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702084\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1200px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11702084\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1200\" height=\"380\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-160x51.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-800x253.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-1020x323.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-1180x374.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-960x304.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-240x76.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-375x119.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-520x165.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bats flying over Marin County. Novato is known for its annual Bat Night event in summer, but with eight types of bats living in the park you stand a good chance of seeing them there in the fall too. \u003ccite>(USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996099/best-bay-area-hikes-for-spotting-banana-slugs-newts-and-ladybugs-after-the-rain\">Looking for newts, slugs or ladybugs\u003c/a>? These creatures are more active in the spring, but can be seen after any rainstorm at nearby parks like \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/tilden\">Tilden Regional Park\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=546\">Henry Cowell Redwoods State Park.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Spookyphotoshootopportunities\">\u003c/a>And finally… Get some good spooky photos\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Just want to get an Instagram-worthy photo of the Bay Area in its prime during spooky season? Don’t worry, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049568/best-bay-area-hikes-for-cold-gloomy-weather\">we’ve got you covered\u003c/a>: We’ve got a roundup of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049568/best-bay-area-hikes-for-cold-gloomy-weather\">best-seen-in-the-gloom spots,\u003c/a> including the eerie abandoned boat rotting in Tomales Bay, the towering eucalyptus trees of Quarry Park in El Granada and the daring cliffsides of Devil’s Slide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not on the list, but still worth a visit for their atmospheric vibes: The \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/places/point-reyes-cypress-tree-tunnel.htm\">Cypress Tree Tunnel \u003c/a>in Point Reyes and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/sutro-baths.htm\">ruins at Sutro Baths\u003c/a> — both of which are Bay Area outdoor highlights, no matter the season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Looking for fall activities to get into a Halloween mood in the Bay Area? We have several ideas for things to do in the last days of October.",
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"title": "Tunnels, Ghosts, Bats and Boats: 6 Ideas for Spooky Season Outdoors in the Bay | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>With Halloween around the corner, and spooky season in full swing, now is the best time to explore the Bay Area’s darkest, eeriest and downright scariest spots outdoors that might make you squirm — or at least elicit some pleasing chills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From haunted-feeling hikes and tunnels to neighborhood ghost tours and creepy critters, keep reading for our pre-Halloween outdoor recommendations for making the most of the season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jump straight to where to discover:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Localcemeteries\">Local cemeteries\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Batsinnature\">Bats in nature\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Tunnelsandcaves\">Tunnels and caves\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Bayareaghosts\">Bay Area ghosts\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Localcritters\">Local critters\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#Spookyphotoshootopportunities\">Spooky photoshoot opportunities\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Batsinnature\">\u003c/a>Go bat watching\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While this year’s UC Berkeley Botanical Garden’s “\u003ca href=\"https://botanicalgarden.berkeley.edu/event/bay-area-bats/\">Bay Area Bats” event\u003c/a> is already full, you still have the chance to see the spooky creatures yourself in the wild.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The closest place to spot bats is near Livermore at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/7130/habitats-for-bats-kids-build-homes-for-east-bays-thriving-bat-population\">Del Valle Regional Park\u003c/a>, where hundreds of these animals munch on insects all night long. \u003ca href=\"https://www.7x7.com/where-to-go-bat-watching-in-the-bay-area-2096256783.html\">Some say\u003c/a> they can even be spotted in San Francisco, in Golden Gate Park at Blue Heron Lake or even at Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And while \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=465\">Olompali State Historic Park\u003c/a> in Novato is known for its annual “\u003ca href=\"https://visitnovato.com/event/olompali-bat-night/\">Bat Night\u003c/a>” event in summer, with eight types of bats living in the park, you stand a good chance of seeing them here in the fall too.\u003cbr>\nAnd don’t forget about the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/22006/science-on-the-spot-bats-beneath-us\">iconic bats of Yolo County\u003c/a> near Davis, where the animals take flight at sunset every evening from underneath the Yolo Causeway bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re willing to travel even further into true bat territory, consider making the trip to \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/nature/bats.htm\">Pinnacles National Park\u003c/a> in the Central Valley. There, you can explore caves where bats hibernate and raise their young. Just be sure to \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/pinn/planyourvisit/cavestatus.htm\">check on the status\u003c/a> of the caves before you go, as they close seasonally to protect the creatures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pro tip: To maximize your chances of seeing bats, remember they’re nocturnal and love water (especially the insects that lakes attract). But don’t ever touch the animals: not only are they a \u003ca href=\"https://www.smcmvcd.org/bats\">protected species in California\u003c/a>, they’re more likely than other animals to \u003ca href=\"https://www.science.org/content/article/bats-really-do-harbor-more-dangerous-viruses-other-species\">carry diseases\u003c/a> that are dangerous to humans.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Localcemeteries\">\u003c/a>Visit a cemetery (respectfully)\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area is home to the city of Colma, known affectionately as the “City of Souls,” owing to the fact that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/10779164/why-are-so-many-dead-people-in-colma-and-so-few-in-san-francisco\">most of San Francisco’s graves were relocated there \u003c/a>in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. So if you’re looking to roam and reflect among the headstones, head to any one of the city’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.colma.ca.gov/cemetery-contacts-locations/\">16 cemeteries\u003c/a>: the oldest and largest of which is the \u003ca href=\"https://sfcathcems.org/holy-cross-colma/\">Holy Cross Catholic Cemetery\u003c/a>, spanning 300 acres.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also a number of other atmospheric and unique cemeteries across the city and Bay Area. In the city proper, you can still visit the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cem.va.gov/cems/nchp/sanfrancisco.asp\">San Francisco National Cemetery\u003c/a> in the Presidio. Or, for a birds-eye view, head to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054079/best-hikes-san-francisco-presidio-views-trails-hiking\">Cemetery Overlook\u003c/a> for unobstructed views of the Golden Gate Bridge — a perfect hike on a foggy evening at dusk, even when the bridge itself is shrouded by mist. There’s also a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12009656/the-presidio-pet-cemetery-a-resting-place-for-furry-friends\">pet cemetery in the Presidio\u003c/a>, where you can visit with companions of the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12009678\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12009678\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Tombstones in a cemetery.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-05-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tombstones at the Presidio of San Francisco Pet Cemetery in San Francisco on Oct. 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11914175/the-only-place-you-can-leave-your-heart-forever-in-san-francisco-the-inner-richmonds-palace-of-ashes\">The San Francisco Columbarium\u003c/a> in the Laurel Heights neighborhood is open to the public and adorned with stained glass, a soaring rotunda and several sculptures and fountains. More than 8,000 people are interned there, including gay rights leader and politician \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/harvey-milk\">Harvey Milk\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For more cemeteries with views, try the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainviewcemetery.org/\">Piedmont cemetery\u003c/a> or \u003ca href=\"https://www.skylawnmemorialpark.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_ven=ib&utm_kw=brand&campid=22372724787&agid=175776669583&adid=741873217167&term=kwd-2225399559821&network=g&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22372724787&gbraid=0AAAAACxqlIXDxxpsVl-S54TzMxp5sMZWT&gclid=CjwKCAjwu9fHBhAWEiwAzGRC_804iEaFlkxth5pB8aHaZsNpBmsawf4sH87kIv6tDzSrAbbp2xV0ARoCNP8QAvD_BwE\">Skylawn Memorial Park\u003c/a> on Skyline Drive near Half Moon Bay. Or, if you’re feeling more adventurous, \u003ca href=\"https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/nortonville-and-black-diamond-loop\">take an almost-6-mile hike\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/black_diamond_rose_hill_brochure.pdf\">Rose Hill Cemetery\u003c/a> in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/black-diamond\">Black Diamond Mines Regional Preserve\u003c/a> in Antioch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just remember: If you’re planning on visiting any of these cemeteries, be sure to respect the sanctity of these spaces — these are the resting places of peoples’ loved ones, after all. In that vein, make sure you’re aware of other visitors who may be visiting to honor passed family and friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Tunnelsandcaves\">\u003c/a>Explore local tunnels — safely\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Eager to go underground? And no — we’re not talking about the BART or Muni tunnels (which you should obviously never venture into, except while riding transit).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Bay Area has fewer mysterious tunnels than \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2014/may/30/underground-cities-in-pictures\">other, older metropolitan areas\u003c/a>, what we \u003cem>do \u003c/em>have are coastlines — with cliff areas where tunnels open up seasonally, like those that tend to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12041355/what-is-that-massive-tunnel-on-the-beach-south-of-fort-funston\">crop up around Fort Funston\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/obscuresf/article/historic-tunnel-at-SF-Sutro-Baths-16988820.php\">Sutro Baths\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_10936320\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 3000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/04/23992229385_6dd9eac96c_o-e1761074667713.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10936320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/04/23992229385_6dd9eac96c_o-e1761074667713.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"3000\" height=\"2000\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Once a thriving water park, the Sutro Baths are now just ruins. \u003ccite>(Derek Bruff )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If you’re looking for a longer hike, in the East Bay, check out the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/indian-joe-nature-trail-to-flag-hilltrail-sunol-regional-wilderness.pdf\">Indian Joe Cave Rocks\u003c/a> at \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/sunol\">Sunol Wilderness Regional Preserve,\u003c/a> popular with hikers and climbers for their basalt rocks that tower overhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or head to the Marin Headlands, where old bunkers like \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/battery-townsley.htm\">Battery Townsley\u003c/a> hid top-secret guns during World War I. The battery is open to the public for tours from 12 p.m. to 4 p.m. on the first Sunday of every month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We cannot emphasize this enough — if you’re going to go tunnel exploring, be safe. If you’re on the coast, always research the tides beforehand, as you don’t want to ever get stuck in or near a tunnel. Always bring a light and don’t trespass — \u003cem>especially \u003c/em>into \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11782405/tunnels-under-san-francisco-inside-the-dark-dangerous-world-of-the-sewers\">San Francisco’s vast sewer network\u003c/a>, which can contain lethal levels of toxic gases.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Bayareaghosts\">\u003c/a>Find ghosts\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13936965/san-francisco-ghost-tours-true-crime-history-halloween\">Ghost tours in the Bay Area are aplenty,\u003c/a> but this one in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfghosthunt.com/\">San Francisco’s Pacific Heights\u003c/a> neighborhood is especially apt for those who want their ghosts with a hefty side of history.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>You won’t just learn about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11700225/the-ghost-of-a-legend-how-a-san-francisco-civil-rights-icon-was-made-a-monster\">the supposed hauntings of the area \u003c/a>— you’ll also become immersed in the complex lives of the early San Franciscans who are rumored to still occupy the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You could also opt to make contact with the spirit world all by yourself. The \u003ca href=\"https://uss-hornet.org/\">USS Hornet\u003c/a>, once a World War II Navy aircraft carrier that was also used to recover the Apollo 11 and 12 crafts, is now a museum docked in Alameda, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12011685/the-uss-hornet-in-alameda-is-a-destination-for-paranormal-enthusiasts-and-you-can-spend-the-night-there\">which is also apparently quite haunted\u003c/a>. You can also stay inside it overnight … if you dare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13879301/5-haunted-bay-area-locations-to-scare-people-into-social-distancing\">Another possible haunted stay\u003c/a>? \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2023/09/21/berkeley-claremont-hotel-ghost-tour-halloween/\">The Claremont Hotel\u003c/a> in Berkeley, where \u003ca href=\"https://www.hauntedrooms.com/california/haunted-places/haunted-hotels/claremont-hotel-berkeley\">reports \u003c/a>of children crying, smells of smoke rumored to be from \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/11/04/claremont-hotel-is-a-towering-east-bay-landmark/\">the 1901 fire that burned down the original hotel structure\u003c/a> and ghostly apparitions have all been reported. The Claremont is now offering \u003ca href=\"https://claremontresortandclub.com/claremont_event/haunted-history-tours/\">haunted tours\u003c/a> during the month of October.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Localcritters\">\u003c/a>Hang out with spooky critters\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Eager to spend the fall season with some uncanny creatures? The \u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbayvivarium.org/\">East Bay Vivarium\u003c/a> is your best bet for reptiles and other creepy crawlers. While their \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13977949/two-headed-kingsnake-berkeley-east-bay-vivarium-angel-zeke-birthday\">two-headed kingsnake recently passed away,\u003c/a> there are plenty of other snakes and slithery animals to behold at the Berkeley reptile shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Out in the wild, \u003ca href=\"https://lindsaywildlife.org/events/tarantula-scorpion-hike-2/\">hikers recommend Mt. Diablo\u003c/a> for tarantula, scorpion and reptile viewing. Mid-October is the peak of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1984392/its-tarantula-mating-season-in-the-bay-area-heres-where-to-see-some-fuzzy-friends\">tarantula mating season\u003c/a>, so head to grassy oak woodlands like Del Valle, Sunol or \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=561\">Henry Coe State Park\u003c/a> to catch a glimpse of the creepy crawlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702084\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1200px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11702084\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1200\" height=\"380\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-160x51.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-800x253.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-1020x323.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-1180x374.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-960x304.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-240x76.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-375x119.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33468_bat-wide-usgs-520x165.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bats flying over Marin County. Novato is known for its annual Bat Night event in summer, but with eight types of bats living in the park you stand a good chance of seeing them there in the fall too. \u003ccite>(USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996099/best-bay-area-hikes-for-spotting-banana-slugs-newts-and-ladybugs-after-the-rain\">Looking for newts, slugs or ladybugs\u003c/a>? These creatures are more active in the spring, but can be seen after any rainstorm at nearby parks like \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/tilden\">Tilden Regional Park\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=546\">Henry Cowell Redwoods State Park.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Spookyphotoshootopportunities\">\u003c/a>And finally… Get some good spooky photos\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Just want to get an Instagram-worthy photo of the Bay Area in its prime during spooky season? Don’t worry, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049568/best-bay-area-hikes-for-cold-gloomy-weather\">we’ve got you covered\u003c/a>: We’ve got a roundup of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049568/best-bay-area-hikes-for-cold-gloomy-weather\">best-seen-in-the-gloom spots,\u003c/a> including the eerie abandoned boat rotting in Tomales Bay, the towering eucalyptus trees of Quarry Park in El Granada and the daring cliffsides of Devil’s Slide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not on the list, but still worth a visit for their atmospheric vibes: The \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/places/point-reyes-cypress-tree-tunnel.htm\">Cypress Tree Tunnel \u003c/a>in Point Reyes and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/sutro-baths.htm\">ruins at Sutro Baths\u003c/a> — both of which are Bay Area outdoor highlights, no matter the season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "bay-curious-presents-spooked-teachers-pet",
"title": "Bay Curious Presents Spooked: Teacher's Pet",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting next week, we’ve got a whole month of stories about creepy, eerie and potentially haunted places in the Bay Area planned for you, as part of a series we’re calling BOO Curious! To get you in the mood for spooky season, we thought we’d share a ghost story from our friends over at the \u003ca href=\"https://snapjudgment.org/spooked/\">Spooked\u003c/a> podcast, from Snap Judgment Studios and KQED. [baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The show is hosted by Glynn Washington, and if you’re one of those people who really enjoys feeling the goosebumps then Spooked has got you covered with year-round chills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kristen Cortez is a new teacher in beautiful Los Gatos, California. From her classroom window, she can see rolling, golden hills. Redwood trees. The sun is almost always shining. And yet … something lurks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Have you been to the grocery store in the last week or two? There are pumpkins out front as you walk in. Brown jugs of apple cider are hanging out in the produce aisle, pretending to be nutritious. And it seems like at the end of every aisle is a display of pumpkin spice something or another. Happy Pumpkin Spice season to those of you who celebrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For us here at Bay Curious, the change of the seasons means it’s time to start preparing for our annual Halloween episode. And this year, we just had too many ideas. We couldn’t decide what to do. So we did them all! We’re taking over the entire month of October for a series we’re calling … Wait for it … Boo Curious. It will be an eerie tour of the San Francisco Bay Area, made with love by your friends at Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To get you in that spooky season spirit, today we’re going to share an episode from the Spooked podcast. If you like scary stories — the kind you might hear around a campfire — Spooked will be a year-round delight for your listening pleasure. The episode we’ll hear today, takes place right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Today, Bay Curious presents: Spooked. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>If you want to lean into this listening experience. Turn off the lights. And turn up the sound.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristin Cortez:\u003c/b> I had just got my first teaching job as an 11th grade English teacher, and I was really excited about it. The building was a two story old fashioned building with rolling green lawns in the front. I was put in a room in the main building which overlooked the front lawn, and it was in a room upstairs that you could see from the street. I also was going to graduate school in the evenings so I would stay late and work until after dark and then I would leave to go to my night class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I was working in my classroom in the evenings, sometimes I would be overwhelmed with a feeling of melancholy and sadness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I started getting the sensation that somebody was watching me. The little hairs on the back of my neck would stand up like sort of a feeling of static.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would feel like I could see something out of the periphery of my vision, like a shadow, like a smoky shadow. And then whenever I looked, there would be nothing there. But I kept having this sense that someone was standing there hovering over me at my desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would give me this feeling of wanting to leave the room as fast as possible. But I would often convince myself that I must be delusional or I must be tired. It was under a lot of stress as a new teacher, then, I definitely wasn’t getting enough sleep. So when I began to notice strange things happening in the classroom, I tended to discount what was going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I would go into the classroom early in the morning and I started to notice things that were out of place. In particular, the chalk from the chalkboard tray, this is back when we had blackboards that covered the wall, the chalk would be removed and in a pile in the middle of the room and sometimes look like somebody had stepped on them and crushed them. The chalkboard erasers would be in different places than where I had left them in the chalkboard tray.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a new teacher, kids play pranks on you. And I just assumed that maybe I hadn’t noticed the night before that kids had messed with my classroom. One morning, I walked in and again the chalk was on the floor in the middle of the room, there was a message written on the board. It was in the lower right corner and it was somewhat small in kind of a cryptic old fashioned handwriting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Was the word help written in chalk? Even though I was sure I had raised it the night before, I convinced myself that maybe I hadn’t noticed it the night before and maybe the kids had done it, but it didn’t look like a typical student’s handwriting. It was cursive, like old fashioned cursive. I couldn’t think of any student who had that kind of handwriting. I had a rowdy seventh period class, they were notorious for blurting out and asking questions and try to side rail, whatever it was that I was talking about, they used to call me by my last name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, one of them said, “Hey Sandoval, what were you doing here last night, like, so late?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I said, What are you talking about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the student said, “I was walking my dog by the school right out on Main Street. And I looked up and I saw that you were still in your classroom. What were you doing?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I said, well, I was working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then the student said, “Well, if you’re working, why were you standing at the window and staring out?” I said, I don’t remember standing at the window and looking out. They said that they couldn’t see my face or my facial expressions, but they tried to wave to me to get my attention. But I was just standing there. Stock still, staring out the window. Again, I discounted it, I didn’t think too much of it, but then one night I had night class and I didn’t have time to pick up dinner and my husband had offered to swing by the high school to drop off food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We picked a time for him to meet me down in this court. That was right next to the corner of the front of the school. And from that court, you could see the window of my classroom. I went downstairs and I went up to the side of his car on the driver’s side, and his back was turned to me because he was looking up at the building where my classroom was. And so I knocked on the window. And when he turned to look at me, he jumped and he looked so startled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So he rolled down the window and he said, I could have sworn I just saw you in the window looking down. And I was wondering why you weren’t coming down to meet me and why you were standing there staring at me in the window. And we both looked back up together and there was nothing there. At that point, I was getting scared to be in the classroom, that very oppressive feeling, the classroom started to grow heavier and heavier with time, I began to sense that somebody was in the room with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that must be the figure that other people have seen standing in the window. I was really nervous about asking around or reporting the feelings that I had because it was a new teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I wasn’t sure, you know, if people would think I was crazy and I just — I didn’t want to destroy people’s confidence in me. It was working on a Friday night, it was mid-October. I realized that it was Friday the 13th. I was working very late grading papers and trying to get my work done. I noticed the scent of smoke like a campfire, and at that moment I started to hear whispers. It sounded like they were coming from the vents up above in the ceiling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I heard the whisper get louder and it started to build up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then all of a sudden I heard get. I could feel my whole body just clam up with tension, I could feel my heart thudding, I felt a combination of both dread and absolute terror and the feeling of urgency that I needed to just drop everything that I was doing and get out of that room. Nothing was as important as getting out of that room. I left without taking the papers home with me. They were scattered and spread out on my desk and I wasn’t about to take the time to gather them up and get them organized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I just left the room. I decided at that point I wasn’t going to stay and work in my classroom late anymore and I wasn’t going to get there early. I was just going to figure out ways to get my work done, go home in between, or go to a coffee shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was an older teacher who had been there for decades, she had been there so long that she had taught some of the teachers that I was teaching with. So I asked her, has there ever been a fire in the school? I didn’t have the courage to tell her why I was asking. I just told her it smelled like something burning in my room. And she said, oh, well, there was a fire that devastated the entire town way back when.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it was so big that it burned pretty much everything on Main Street where the high school is located. When I looked up the fire that the senior teacher had told me about, I learned that the fire had occurred on October 13th. This building wasn’t even here when it happened, even though the fire had never touched the walls of this building. I started to wonder if maybe there was something, some residue of some kind of tragedy or something that was left over from that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the school year went by in the spring, we had our annual Sadie Hawkins dance, the dances where the girls asked the boys to the dance. I, of course, was assigned to chaperone and it involved me staying late until after the dance shut down at like midnight. I realized after I’d finished chaperoning the dance that I needed to go back to my room to grab my things. You know, most of the teachers, as soon as the administrators release us from our chaperone duties, everybody makes themselves scarce and they take off as fast as they can.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I couldn’t find anybody to go back up there with me. When I went back into the building, it was dark. The only light was the green and red exit signs near each of the main double doors. It felt as if once I entered that building, I was sort of cut off from the rest of the world and cut off from other human contact. I was scared. I was really nervous. And if I didn’t have to get my purse, I would not go back into that building or into my room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I opened up my classroom door. It was dark in the room and the only light that was coming in was from the front windows which faced the street. I looked to the right of the door and in front of the blackboard there was a woman. She was standing with her face, almost touching the blackboard, and all I could see was her back. Her hair was pulled up in an old fashioned kind of hairdo and she had a high color, dark dress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was kind of like a charcoal gray color and it looked like an old period dress. I could not see her shoes because the bottom half was faded out, almost as if her feet had disappeared. At that moment when I saw her, I felt a shot of cold going through the core of me, I knew it was whoever I had felt in that room. I was trying to talk myself into believing that it was somebody who had gotten into the room and not what I thought it was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so very tentatively, I said, excuse me, you’re not supposed to be in my room. You need to leave now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there was this weird, awkward pause and the woman didn’t move at first. And then all of a sudden she started to turn her head. And I saw the side of her face looked like her face was burnt. She looked at me out of the corner of her eyes when they locked with mine. It was a strange and overwhelming feeling of recognition, as if I knew her and she knew me. I was just filled with that sense of dread, mixed with terror, mixed with sorrow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a horrible feeling. I just turned and I left as fast as I could. I started calling to see if anybody was in the building. Is anybody here? Is anybody still here? Help me help. I needed to be with another human being and I did not want to be alone. I found the janitor locking up the theater in the main building downstairs. I said, I think there’s somebody in my room. Can you come with me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When we went back in the room, there was nothing there. I was shaking all over. I grabbed my purse and my keys and whatever papers I was going to great over the weekend and I bolted from the room. I had trouble getting my work done that weekend. I had trouble sleeping, I couldn’t stop thinking about that, that vision, that face — the side of her face, the way she looked at me out of the corner of her eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I really tried hard not to go or stay in my classroom after the bell rang, I didn’t go there in the early morning anymore. I just avoided being in the room as much as possible. Years went by, and I never told that story to anybody until 12 or 13 years later. A lot of things that happened between those years, there wasn’t a new teacher anymore. I had had babies. I had gone through life. It was just a much better, happier time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I felt safe enough and confident enough to start researching, I went to the library and I went through all the historical photo files of Los Gatos and read some of the stories about the fire that destroyed all of the buildings that were on Main Street. I looked at lots and lots of old photos. I searched and searched for a face that might have matched the one that I saw. I became kind of obsessed for a while. I found this old photo of a teacher at an old desk with a blackboard behind her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to the left of the desk was a window that looked very much like the windows of my classroom. I felt like that picture wanted me to find it. The woman looked just like the woman that I saw. I think that woman who I saw was an old school marm, old in the sense that she had been a school teacher maybe a century prior. I feel like she might have died in that location by fire. When I think of a schoolmarm, I think of a woman whose entire life is devoted to teaching children. Maybe she had spent too long working too long, late at night at school. And maybe that’s why, you know, if there had been a fire in that location and took her life, maybe it was because she was there when she wasn’t teaching. Maybe she had spent extra hours there and had subjected herself to something that could have been avoided if she had been working only the hours that she should be working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During my first year of teaching, I was easily working 16 hour days. I didn’t have any free time. I didn’t even see my new husband very much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I felt very alone. Maybe whatever was there was commiserating with me, it was less of like scaring me out, more of protecting me. I thought maybe there was a warning in there that I shouldn’t be working that much or that late in the building. But maybe that’s why she had decided to show herself to me. And, you know, I think that later on in life, maybe one of the reasons why I didn’t get the same feeling in that room was because I had learned more of a work life balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I used to have students always ask me for stories about the school, and eventually I decided to tell that story of the presence in the room that I had come face to face with. By about the third year of telling this story, I started thinking about the woman and how she looked, and what was odd is that she looked like me, a little bit. She was about the same size, very similar stature. Her coloring was very similar. She had dark hair, dark eyes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I started thinking it would be fun to dress up as her and show my students what she looked like. So I went down to the Haight-Ashbury district in San Francisco and went to my favorite vintage clothing store, where they have clothes from every single era. I described to the owner what I was looking for. And of course, I didn’t want to tell her. This was the dress that I thought I saw on a ghost, but I described exactly what it was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And she pulled out a dress out of the back that looked exactly like the one that I had seen on the woman in my classroom. I went and looked at some hair tutorials and did my hair exactly like that, that era. And I remember when my students walked in the door, my back was facing them. When they came in the room, they kind of freaked out because they said it looked so realistic. I worried around all day, and then I started to get kind of creeped out about wearing it because it smells a 100 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It smells like history. I think I might have worn it twice, two different years in a row. I have not worn it for a few years, but I will keep it forever. When I retire from teaching, I should probably leave the dress in the room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Glynn Washington: \u003c/b>Thank you, Kristin, for sharing your story with Spooked but you should know that Kristin is a Spooked listener, she reached out to tell us her story and we want you to do the same thing if you have a truly terrifying tale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Be sure to drop us a line at spooked@snapjudgement.org. The original score for that story was by Richard Haig. Was produced by Zoë Ferrigno.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was an episode of Spooked, hosted by Glynn Washington. If you love what you just heard, be sure to subscribe to Spooked wherever you listen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can also come out to Spooked Live, Presented by Snap Judgement and KQED Live. It’s a night of true-life supernatural stories from people who can scarcely believe they lived them. And it all comes to life on stage at the Fox Theatre in Oakland on, of course, Friday the 13th. More details and tickets at KQED.org/live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another event coming up, this one by Bay Curious. We’re doing a theatrical walking tour of the AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park. Learn about the history of this amazing space from the people who helped create it. Plus live music, dance and The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. Space is limited. Learn more at KQED.org/live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting next week, we’ve got a whole month of stories about creepy, eerie and potentially haunted places in the Bay Area planned for you, as part of a series we’re calling BOO Curious! To get you in the mood for spooky season, we thought we’d share a ghost story from our friends over at the \u003ca href=\"https://snapjudgment.org/spooked/\">Spooked\u003c/a> podcast, from Snap Judgment Studios and KQED. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The show is hosted by Glynn Washington, and if you’re one of those people who really enjoys feeling the goosebumps then Spooked has got you covered with year-round chills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kristen Cortez is a new teacher in beautiful Los Gatos, California. From her classroom window, she can see rolling, golden hills. Redwood trees. The sun is almost always shining. And yet … something lurks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Have you been to the grocery store in the last week or two? There are pumpkins out front as you walk in. Brown jugs of apple cider are hanging out in the produce aisle, pretending to be nutritious. And it seems like at the end of every aisle is a display of pumpkin spice something or another. Happy Pumpkin Spice season to those of you who celebrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For us here at Bay Curious, the change of the seasons means it’s time to start preparing for our annual Halloween episode. And this year, we just had too many ideas. We couldn’t decide what to do. So we did them all! We’re taking over the entire month of October for a series we’re calling … Wait for it … Boo Curious. It will be an eerie tour of the San Francisco Bay Area, made with love by your friends at Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To get you in that spooky season spirit, today we’re going to share an episode from the Spooked podcast. If you like scary stories — the kind you might hear around a campfire — Spooked will be a year-round delight for your listening pleasure. The episode we’ll hear today, takes place right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Today, Bay Curious presents: Spooked. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>If you want to lean into this listening experience. Turn off the lights. And turn up the sound.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristin Cortez:\u003c/b> I had just got my first teaching job as an 11th grade English teacher, and I was really excited about it. The building was a two story old fashioned building with rolling green lawns in the front. I was put in a room in the main building which overlooked the front lawn, and it was in a room upstairs that you could see from the street. I also was going to graduate school in the evenings so I would stay late and work until after dark and then I would leave to go to my night class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I was working in my classroom in the evenings, sometimes I would be overwhelmed with a feeling of melancholy and sadness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I started getting the sensation that somebody was watching me. The little hairs on the back of my neck would stand up like sort of a feeling of static.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would feel like I could see something out of the periphery of my vision, like a shadow, like a smoky shadow. And then whenever I looked, there would be nothing there. But I kept having this sense that someone was standing there hovering over me at my desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would give me this feeling of wanting to leave the room as fast as possible. But I would often convince myself that I must be delusional or I must be tired. It was under a lot of stress as a new teacher, then, I definitely wasn’t getting enough sleep. So when I began to notice strange things happening in the classroom, I tended to discount what was going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I would go into the classroom early in the morning and I started to notice things that were out of place. In particular, the chalk from the chalkboard tray, this is back when we had blackboards that covered the wall, the chalk would be removed and in a pile in the middle of the room and sometimes look like somebody had stepped on them and crushed them. The chalkboard erasers would be in different places than where I had left them in the chalkboard tray.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a new teacher, kids play pranks on you. And I just assumed that maybe I hadn’t noticed the night before that kids had messed with my classroom. One morning, I walked in and again the chalk was on the floor in the middle of the room, there was a message written on the board. It was in the lower right corner and it was somewhat small in kind of a cryptic old fashioned handwriting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Was the word help written in chalk? Even though I was sure I had raised it the night before, I convinced myself that maybe I hadn’t noticed it the night before and maybe the kids had done it, but it didn’t look like a typical student’s handwriting. It was cursive, like old fashioned cursive. I couldn’t think of any student who had that kind of handwriting. I had a rowdy seventh period class, they were notorious for blurting out and asking questions and try to side rail, whatever it was that I was talking about, they used to call me by my last name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, one of them said, “Hey Sandoval, what were you doing here last night, like, so late?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I said, What are you talking about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the student said, “I was walking my dog by the school right out on Main Street. And I looked up and I saw that you were still in your classroom. What were you doing?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I said, well, I was working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then the student said, “Well, if you’re working, why were you standing at the window and staring out?” I said, I don’t remember standing at the window and looking out. They said that they couldn’t see my face or my facial expressions, but they tried to wave to me to get my attention. But I was just standing there. Stock still, staring out the window. Again, I discounted it, I didn’t think too much of it, but then one night I had night class and I didn’t have time to pick up dinner and my husband had offered to swing by the high school to drop off food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We picked a time for him to meet me down in this court. That was right next to the corner of the front of the school. And from that court, you could see the window of my classroom. I went downstairs and I went up to the side of his car on the driver’s side, and his back was turned to me because he was looking up at the building where my classroom was. And so I knocked on the window. And when he turned to look at me, he jumped and he looked so startled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So he rolled down the window and he said, I could have sworn I just saw you in the window looking down. And I was wondering why you weren’t coming down to meet me and why you were standing there staring at me in the window. And we both looked back up together and there was nothing there. At that point, I was getting scared to be in the classroom, that very oppressive feeling, the classroom started to grow heavier and heavier with time, I began to sense that somebody was in the room with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that must be the figure that other people have seen standing in the window. I was really nervous about asking around or reporting the feelings that I had because it was a new teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I wasn’t sure, you know, if people would think I was crazy and I just — I didn’t want to destroy people’s confidence in me. It was working on a Friday night, it was mid-October. I realized that it was Friday the 13th. I was working very late grading papers and trying to get my work done. I noticed the scent of smoke like a campfire, and at that moment I started to hear whispers. It sounded like they were coming from the vents up above in the ceiling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I heard the whisper get louder and it started to build up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then all of a sudden I heard get. I could feel my whole body just clam up with tension, I could feel my heart thudding, I felt a combination of both dread and absolute terror and the feeling of urgency that I needed to just drop everything that I was doing and get out of that room. Nothing was as important as getting out of that room. I left without taking the papers home with me. They were scattered and spread out on my desk and I wasn’t about to take the time to gather them up and get them organized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I just left the room. I decided at that point I wasn’t going to stay and work in my classroom late anymore and I wasn’t going to get there early. I was just going to figure out ways to get my work done, go home in between, or go to a coffee shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was an older teacher who had been there for decades, she had been there so long that she had taught some of the teachers that I was teaching with. So I asked her, has there ever been a fire in the school? I didn’t have the courage to tell her why I was asking. I just told her it smelled like something burning in my room. And she said, oh, well, there was a fire that devastated the entire town way back when.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it was so big that it burned pretty much everything on Main Street where the high school is located. When I looked up the fire that the senior teacher had told me about, I learned that the fire had occurred on October 13th. This building wasn’t even here when it happened, even though the fire had never touched the walls of this building. I started to wonder if maybe there was something, some residue of some kind of tragedy or something that was left over from that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the school year went by in the spring, we had our annual Sadie Hawkins dance, the dances where the girls asked the boys to the dance. I, of course, was assigned to chaperone and it involved me staying late until after the dance shut down at like midnight. I realized after I’d finished chaperoning the dance that I needed to go back to my room to grab my things. You know, most of the teachers, as soon as the administrators release us from our chaperone duties, everybody makes themselves scarce and they take off as fast as they can.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I couldn’t find anybody to go back up there with me. When I went back into the building, it was dark. The only light was the green and red exit signs near each of the main double doors. It felt as if once I entered that building, I was sort of cut off from the rest of the world and cut off from other human contact. I was scared. I was really nervous. And if I didn’t have to get my purse, I would not go back into that building or into my room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I opened up my classroom door. It was dark in the room and the only light that was coming in was from the front windows which faced the street. I looked to the right of the door and in front of the blackboard there was a woman. She was standing with her face, almost touching the blackboard, and all I could see was her back. Her hair was pulled up in an old fashioned kind of hairdo and she had a high color, dark dress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was kind of like a charcoal gray color and it looked like an old period dress. I could not see her shoes because the bottom half was faded out, almost as if her feet had disappeared. At that moment when I saw her, I felt a shot of cold going through the core of me, I knew it was whoever I had felt in that room. I was trying to talk myself into believing that it was somebody who had gotten into the room and not what I thought it was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so very tentatively, I said, excuse me, you’re not supposed to be in my room. You need to leave now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there was this weird, awkward pause and the woman didn’t move at first. And then all of a sudden she started to turn her head. And I saw the side of her face looked like her face was burnt. She looked at me out of the corner of her eyes when they locked with mine. It was a strange and overwhelming feeling of recognition, as if I knew her and she knew me. I was just filled with that sense of dread, mixed with terror, mixed with sorrow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a horrible feeling. I just turned and I left as fast as I could. I started calling to see if anybody was in the building. Is anybody here? Is anybody still here? Help me help. I needed to be with another human being and I did not want to be alone. I found the janitor locking up the theater in the main building downstairs. I said, I think there’s somebody in my room. Can you come with me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When we went back in the room, there was nothing there. I was shaking all over. I grabbed my purse and my keys and whatever papers I was going to great over the weekend and I bolted from the room. I had trouble getting my work done that weekend. I had trouble sleeping, I couldn’t stop thinking about that, that vision, that face — the side of her face, the way she looked at me out of the corner of her eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I really tried hard not to go or stay in my classroom after the bell rang, I didn’t go there in the early morning anymore. I just avoided being in the room as much as possible. Years went by, and I never told that story to anybody until 12 or 13 years later. A lot of things that happened between those years, there wasn’t a new teacher anymore. I had had babies. I had gone through life. It was just a much better, happier time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I felt safe enough and confident enough to start researching, I went to the library and I went through all the historical photo files of Los Gatos and read some of the stories about the fire that destroyed all of the buildings that were on Main Street. I looked at lots and lots of old photos. I searched and searched for a face that might have matched the one that I saw. I became kind of obsessed for a while. I found this old photo of a teacher at an old desk with a blackboard behind her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to the left of the desk was a window that looked very much like the windows of my classroom. I felt like that picture wanted me to find it. The woman looked just like the woman that I saw. I think that woman who I saw was an old school marm, old in the sense that she had been a school teacher maybe a century prior. I feel like she might have died in that location by fire. When I think of a schoolmarm, I think of a woman whose entire life is devoted to teaching children. Maybe she had spent too long working too long, late at night at school. And maybe that’s why, you know, if there had been a fire in that location and took her life, maybe it was because she was there when she wasn’t teaching. Maybe she had spent extra hours there and had subjected herself to something that could have been avoided if she had been working only the hours that she should be working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During my first year of teaching, I was easily working 16 hour days. I didn’t have any free time. I didn’t even see my new husband very much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I felt very alone. Maybe whatever was there was commiserating with me, it was less of like scaring me out, more of protecting me. I thought maybe there was a warning in there that I shouldn’t be working that much or that late in the building. But maybe that’s why she had decided to show herself to me. And, you know, I think that later on in life, maybe one of the reasons why I didn’t get the same feeling in that room was because I had learned more of a work life balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I used to have students always ask me for stories about the school, and eventually I decided to tell that story of the presence in the room that I had come face to face with. By about the third year of telling this story, I started thinking about the woman and how she looked, and what was odd is that she looked like me, a little bit. She was about the same size, very similar stature. Her coloring was very similar. She had dark hair, dark eyes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I started thinking it would be fun to dress up as her and show my students what she looked like. So I went down to the Haight-Ashbury district in San Francisco and went to my favorite vintage clothing store, where they have clothes from every single era. I described to the owner what I was looking for. And of course, I didn’t want to tell her. This was the dress that I thought I saw on a ghost, but I described exactly what it was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And she pulled out a dress out of the back that looked exactly like the one that I had seen on the woman in my classroom. I went and looked at some hair tutorials and did my hair exactly like that, that era. And I remember when my students walked in the door, my back was facing them. When they came in the room, they kind of freaked out because they said it looked so realistic. I worried around all day, and then I started to get kind of creeped out about wearing it because it smells a 100 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It smells like history. I think I might have worn it twice, two different years in a row. I have not worn it for a few years, but I will keep it forever. When I retire from teaching, I should probably leave the dress in the room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Glynn Washington: \u003c/b>Thank you, Kristin, for sharing your story with Spooked but you should know that Kristin is a Spooked listener, she reached out to tell us her story and we want you to do the same thing if you have a truly terrifying tale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Be sure to drop us a line at spooked@snapjudgement.org. The original score for that story was by Richard Haig. Was produced by Zoë Ferrigno.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was an episode of Spooked, hosted by Glynn Washington. If you love what you just heard, be sure to subscribe to Spooked wherever you listen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can also come out to Spooked Live, Presented by Snap Judgement and KQED Live. It’s a night of true-life supernatural stories from people who can scarcely believe they lived them. And it all comes to life on stage at the Fox Theatre in Oakland on, of course, Friday the 13th. More details and tickets at KQED.org/live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another event coming up, this one by Bay Curious. We’re doing a theatrical walking tour of the AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park. Learn about the history of this amazing space from the people who helped create it. Plus live music, dance and The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. Space is limited. Learn more at KQED.org/live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>You probably know the broad strokes of the Donner Party Saga: In 1846, a group of migrants traveling to California got stuck in a surprise October snow storm. After exhausting all their resources, they turn to \u003cem>cannibalism\u003c/em> to survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a grisly tale … but the way it’s often told is incomplete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this Bay Curious podcast episode, we’ll delve into the details many leave behind, and explore what happened to the Donner Party survivors after they escaped the snowy Sierra. This notorious disaster struck deep at the heart of everything California held dear — and came to represent everything it wanted to forget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7257734226&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This story originally aired on Bay Curious in 2020 in two parts. This version has been re-cut and condensed into one part.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re re-airing it because on Feb. 23 we’re hosting a live event at KQED’s headquarters called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/2792\">Endless Winter: Inside the Donner Party Disaster\u003c/a>. It will be an atmospheric night of immersive storytelling that takes audiences deep inside the Donner Party saga step-by-step and casts this disaster in a new light.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>You probably know the broad strokes of the Donner Party Saga: In 1846, a group of migrants traveling to California got stuck in a surprise October snow storm. After exhausting all their resources, they turn to \u003cem>cannibalism\u003c/em> to survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a grisly tale … but the way it’s often told is incomplete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this Bay Curious podcast episode, we’ll delve into the details many leave behind, and explore what happened to the Donner Party survivors after they escaped the snowy Sierra. This notorious disaster struck deep at the heart of everything California held dear — and came to represent everything it wanted to forget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7257734226&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Uncovering the Real Story Behind the 'East Bay Mystery Walls'",
"headTitle": "Uncovering the Real Story Behind the ‘East Bay Mystery Walls’ | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was first published on Aug 31, 2018. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[dropcap]F[/dropcap]or more than a century, people in the Bay Area — and especially the East Bay — have puzzled over the existence of stone walls scattered on ridges from near San Jose north through the Berkeley Hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes the walls are built in long straight lines. Sometimes they form angles. Occasionally you’ll find rectangular or circular constructions.\u003cbr>\n[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003cbr>\nWho built these things? How long ago? And why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe voyagers from a lost continent built them. Or visitors from outer space. Or a vanished tribe of “superior” Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>People have suggested these walls could have been meant for defense. Or as navigational aids for extraterrestrials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We started getting “mystery walls” questions almost as soon as Bay Curious opened for business, including one from Eric Haven. He’s an artist — he writes and draws graphic novels — and he’s been a producer on “MythBusters” as well as the reboot, “Mythbusters Jr.” So he’s someone who wants to get to the bottom of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His query was pretty straightforward: “Who built the East Bay mystery walls? They appear to be ancient, many hundreds or even thousands of years old.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eric came to the Bay Area in 1989. As we hiked up a steep, rocky trail in the Berkeley Hills to visit a wall segment there, he told me that’s when he first heard about a nearby “mystery wall.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And the way it was relayed to me was very much like urban myth or urban legend,” he said. “There are certain signifiers of that conversation — you know, the vagueness of it — and yet certain things are very specific. ‘No one knows who built it. No one knows why they built it.’ ”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11689988\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11689988\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-800x519.jpg\" alt=\"Segments of stone walls, like these on Monument Peak, in Ed Levin County Park near Milpitas, can be found throughout the hills of the East Bay.\" width=\"800\" height=\"519\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-800x519.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-160x104.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-1020x661.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-1200x778.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-1180x765.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-960x623.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-240x156.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-375x243.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-520x337.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Segments of stone walls, like these on Monument Peak, in Ed Levin County Park near Milpitas, can be found throughout the hills of the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[dropcap]T[/dropcap]hat “no one knows” refrain is a constant in the story of the walls from the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to say precisely when locals might have started gossiping about the walls — or if they ever did — but the oldest published mention of the “mystery” appears to be \u003ca href=\"https://flic.kr/p/2aywx85\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">March 8, 1896,\u003c/a> in the Sunday San Francisco Chronicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Half a mile east of Grizzly Peak stand the remnants of stone walls which have long baffled the researches and curiosity of antiquarians,” the unbylined story said. “By whom they were erected, when and why is an unsolved mystery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The same little essay goes on to drop a theory or two: that perhaps the walls were the work of what it called “a long forgotten race,” or maybe the Aztecs of Mexico, who might have used the walls for defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For structures that have excited such feverish speculation for so long, most of them look pretty modest. The section Eric Haven and I tramped up to is actually kind of nondescript: about 100 feet long and just 2 or 3 feet high. The rocks used for construction — local limestone — are stacked or piled, not mortared or cut to fit. Most of the stones are small enough that one person could place them easily; some would have required a crew to put in place. Most are covered with lichens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we soaked in the atmosphere of the place — a spot with a sweeping view, but one we promised the property owners we wouldn’t disclose — Eric shared a friend’s idea about the origins of the walls. It’s a variation on the notion that Native Americans built these walls for a mystical purpose.\u003cbr>\n[baycuriousbug]\u003cbr>\n“His theory was that there was an earthquake here, and it opened up fissures in the ground,” Eric said. “And he thought these were purely ceremonial. They were here to appease whatever gods they thought were angered, or spirits, and this was a way to mark those fissures and to show those spirits they’d do whatever it takes so the earthquake doesn’t happen again.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before we headed back down the trail from the wall, we observed that the wall runs parallel to a modern barbed-wire fence that pretty clearly marks a property boundary. So this wall, perhaps, was built as part of a property line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690201\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11690201 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-800x504.jpg\" alt=\"A portion of walls with the Diablo Range in the background.\" width=\"800\" height=\"504\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-800x504.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-160x101.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-1020x642.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-1200x756.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-1180x743.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-960x605.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-240x151.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-375x236.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-520x327.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A portion of walls with the Diablo Range in the background. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[dropcap]L[/dropcap]ooking for an answer meant going through old newspaper stories, tracking down amateur sleuths’ accounts of the walls, searching old maps for evidence of the structures and finding out whether real live archaeologists had ever studied the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been many newspaper pieces over the years, starting with the Chronicle’s in 1896. Most have repeated the original article’s conclusion that the walls are an impenetrable enigma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For instance, in August 1904, the Chronicle ran another story on the walls, this time, as a big spread in the Sunday paper. It featured a dramatic illustration of stereotype savage fighting with spear and bow and arrow and hurling big rocks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was written by a guy named Harold French — a hiker, writer and clerk at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11667314/this-s-f-fortress-is-full-of-money-that-will-never-be-spent\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">San Francisco’s U.S. Mint\u003c/a>. The prose sounds a lot like that in the 1896 piece.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Did a colony from lost Atlantis once populate the Berkeley hills?” the story asked. “Are the ancient rock walls which crown the Contra Costa ridges remnants of a Toltec or a pre-Toltec civilization? Are these remarkable walls really relics of the Stone Age?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few weeks later, the Chronicle was back with another dramatic Sunday spread, announcing an amazing find unearthed by a University of California chemistry professor named Henry Coffinberry Myers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The headline declared that “stone age relics discovered in the Berkeley Hills … seem to change the accepted history of the Western world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The objects Myers said he’d uncovered during forays into the hills included a “five-faced stone image,” stone axes and pieces of pottery. Myers said that mineral deposits on the carved stone image proved it was 1,000 to 10,000 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Myers and other experts the Chronicle contacted said the artifacts and the walls in the hills were evidence that early hill dwellers — perhaps giants who had gained immense strength by lifting big rocks — had migrated from China.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Myers’ find was almost certainly a hoax. The Chronicle doesn’t appear to have said another word about the professor and his world-shattering discoveries. Myers left Berkeley shortly afterward to manage a sugar refinery in Hawaii. He eventually donated his artifacts — telling \u003ca href=\"http://kaga.wsulibs.wsu.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=%2Fclipping&CISOPTR=10799&DMSCALE=100.00000&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMMODE=viewer&DMFULL=0&DMOLDSCALE=16.35769&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&DMTHUMB=1&REC=1&DMROTATE=0&x=42&y=146\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">a different story\u003c/a> about where they’d come from — to a \u003ca href=\"http://spokanehistorical.org/items/show/536\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Bible college\u003c/a> in Spokane, Washington.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1908, the Berkeley Hills walls were back in the news. “Professor” Joseph Voyle, president of the Berkeley Society for Psychical Research, identified some of the walls as \u003ca href=\"http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19080622.2.60.11\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">remains of a prehistoric civilization\u003c/a>. He was led to the site by a kind of divining rod, and newspapers delighted in telling the tale of Voyle leading a group on an expedition into the wilds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(Voyle also claimed to have discovered a radium mine beneath San Francisco and reported he had invented an earthquake detector and figured out how to make non-intoxicating alcohol. He died an indigent in Alameda County’s public hospital in 1915, having succumbed to what one paper called “an infirmity of which he had long been a sufferer.”)\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690204\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11690204\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"The stone walls wind through the landscape on Monument Peak.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The stone walls wind through the landscape on Monument Peak. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[dropcap]W[/dropcap]hile Myers and Voyle departed the scene, Harold French showed up again and again in print over the years promoting the legend of the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I say “legend” advisedly. In published writings through the early 1920s, French never failed to describe the walls as “prehistoric” or “ancient.” But beyond the walls’ mere presence, the only evidence he ever cited was the testimony of unnamed old-timers who, he said, had told him that the walls had been a puzzle to both Native Americans and early settlers alike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not clear if trained archaeologists ever seriously studied the walls at the time French was writing. At one point, French reported he had spoken to a “certain teacher of anthropology” at the University of California about the walls’ origins. The anthropologist reportedly responded:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From time to time my students have come and told me about these walls … but I never took them seriously enough to climb way up there in that ‘Beanstalk Land’ to see them. I suppose they are either old sheep corrals or ranch boundaries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11689477\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/Screen-Shot-2018-08-29-at-4.16.31-PM.png\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-large wp-image-11689477\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/Screen-Shot-2018-08-29-at-4.16.31-PM-1020x1172.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"640\" height=\"735\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An Oakland Tribune feature article on the East Bay Walls by writer and hiker Harold French.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Eventually, though, amateur researchers started trying to decipher the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One was Seth Simpson, who spent years documenting the presence of the walls and puzzling over their origins. His conclusion, \u003ca href=\"https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4807539/East-Bay-Walls-Simpson-Pursuit.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">summarized\u003c/a> in a 1972 number of Pursuit, the Journal of the Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained, is classic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Simpson said there was a possibility some of the walls had been erected by local tribes to trap and kill game. But for the rest, he said, “All I can suggest is that they were built by unknown persons, in an unknown year, for an unknown purpose … and very possibly they will remain a puzzle for the indefinite future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[dropcap]O[/dropcap]ther wall fanatics were exploring the hills, too. Robert Fisher, a physician from Fremont, and a friend from Berkeley, Russell Swanson, took a lively interest in the walls, especially those in the hills near the south end of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fisher and Swanson were inclined to see massive rock formations on the ridges and highlands as the work of unknown ancients they called “the Earliers.” The meaning of the walls, massive standing stones and outcroppings, was baffling. Fisher suggested some of the stone work could have served as navigational aids for extraterrestrials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least one real live archaeologist joined Fisher to tour one area of the hills — Monument Peak, above Milpitas in Santa Clara County’s Ed Levin Park. It’s a dramatic site, with wonderful stretches of walls snaking along ridges about 2,000 feet above the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an answer to an email query relayed through the Society for California Archaeology, Breck Parkman, a now-retired state parks archeologist, said that in the late 1980s a friend prevailed upon him to visit Monument Peak with Fisher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fisher “wanted me to come and authenticate what he was finding,” Parkman said in an email. “… I said, show me the best you have. He did.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parkman said the area featured “lots and lots of stone walls” he believed dated to sometime in the 1800s. Most were built, he felt, in the later years of the century, perhaps by Chinese workers, perhaps by Basque sheep herders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he found a handful of structures — possible hunting blinds and prayer circles — he thought could have been Native American in origin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was these features that convinced me that among the many late 19th century rock features in the East Bay Hills, we might find a few older features of importance,” Parkman wrote. “It would be worth checking out, but I don’t know who’d be interested in taking a systematic look at this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One reason that professionals may have stayed away from the walls, Parkman added, is “not wanting to be associated with the fringe element” responsible for the many wild wall hypotheses over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690202\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11690202\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"A portion of the stone walls found throughout the Berkeley Hills.\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-1180x664.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-960x540.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-240x135.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-375x211.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-520x293.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A portion of the stone walls found throughout the Berkeley Hills. \u003ccite>(Adam Grossberg/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[dropcap]A[/dropcap]nother archaeologist, Jeff Fentress, went up into the Berkeley Hills with me to look at the same section of wall I visited with our question asker, Eric Haven.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress, now retired from his position as a professor of archaeology at San Francisco State University, was raised nearby and said he’d been hearing stories about the walls since his boyhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I was growing up in Berkeley here, we were told the Lemurians built the walls, and the Lemurians were the inhabitants of the lost continent of Mu,” Fentress said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://www.crystalinks.com/lemuria.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Mu\u003c/a> is said to have existed out in the Pacific Ocean somewhere. And Fentress said stories like that are still coming up. The History Channel asked him whether a Chinese admiral might have erected the rock walls, and British TV interviewed him about whether the West African adventurers might have put up the walls during a visit 30,000 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress said the problem with all of those theories — Lemurians, Chinese, West Africans and extraterrestrials — is that there’s simply no evidence any of those real or imagined groups ever landed here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So I think you have to look at the walls in the context of who was actually here in the Bay Area,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690203\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11690203\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-800x446.jpg\" alt=\"Archaeologist Jeff Fentress says it would take a lot of time and money to definitively determine when the stone walls were built and by whom.\" width=\"800\" height=\"446\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-800x446.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-160x89.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-1020x569.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-1200x669.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-1180x658.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-960x536.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-240x134.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-375x209.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-520x290.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archaeologist Jeff Fentress says it would take a lot of time and money to definitively determine when the stone walls were built and by whom. \u003ccite>(Adam Grossberg/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Native American tribes have populated the Bay Area for about 10,000 years, according to the latest estimates. They were here long before the arrival of Spanish and Mexican colonists and the Gold Rush-era invasion of Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Fentress said “there is no indication that Native American people built rock walls that extended for hundreds or thousands of feet. There are no accounts of them building massive wall structures or corrals or any of the other sort of rock features we see in the East Bay here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress and other archaeologists who have studied and recorded the walls agree that there is an explanation, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rock walls were the work of us — the people who pushed the native tribes off the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress said some wall building may have begun in the Mission period, and walls like the ones in the hills followed. Some were likely built to mark property lines. Many others were put up as part of ranching and farming operations, such as those that were known to have existed both in the Berkeley Hills and the Monument Peak area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also points to the many European immigrant groups known to have ranched and farmed in the hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Did these people make rock walls in their countries?” Fentress asks. “Look at them all — Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland and so on. \u003cem>Of course\u003c/em> they made rock walls.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11689494\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11689494\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/Screen-Shot-2018-08-29-at-10.05.19-PM-800x487.png\" alt=\"Fentress says the most likely answer is that European immigrants built the walls as functional parts of their lives that didn't rise to the level of recording their purpose.\" width=\"800\" height=\"487\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Fentress says the most likely answer is that European immigrants built the walls as functional parts of their lives that didn’t rise to the level of recording their purpose. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Fentress and others also point out there was no shortage of labor — provided either willingly or unwillingly. Chinese crews, paid as little as a penny a linear foot, were hired to build ranch walls in Mariposa and Tehama counties, for instance. And many Native Americans, displaced from their lands and denied basic civil rights, were forced into indentured servitude to provide labor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Fentress concedes his explanations for the walls are speculative and said you’d want to search for more evidence to back up what he and other researchers have observed and been told in the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The main thing to do would be to systematically record and map all the walls,” he said. Once the walls were mapped, researchers could compare their locations to older maps showing historic property lines and other features.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also said it could be useful to dig along the base of walls to study their construction and to look for artifacts. It would also help to study the rocks used in the structures to confirm what most people assume — that they come from the same area as the walls themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dating techniques could be useful, too. \u003ca href=\"https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4807533/Proceedings-of-the-Society-for-California.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">One experimental study\u003c/a> that used the growth of lichens as a dating technique estimated that the surviving wall segment in the Berkeley Hills may have been built between 1850 and 1880.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress said you’d want to do a more systematic study — a hundred lichen sites, say — to really come to a firm conclusion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Historical records — written accounts — could be important, too. But those are in short supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And really the reason is that, you know, we’re looking at — you could call it the archaeology of the common people, the archeology of the working class,” he said. “Back in 1850, if Mr. McGillicuddy cleared his fields and he built a wall between his property and Mr. Sousa next door, no one’s going to write a newspaper article about that. It’s not going to get in the history books. So all we have is the remains of these people showing their hard work and their ingenuity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690200\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11690200\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Downtown San Jose rises in the distance behind a small collection of stones seen from Monument Peak.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Downtown San Jose rises in the distance behind a small collection of stones seen from Monument Peak. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[dropcap]S[/dropcap]o, at the end of all this, there is still some mystery left in the walls and more work to be done to come to definitive answers. Eric Haven, who prompted our own investigation, said he’s OK with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People love a mystery,” he said. “And since this is an unsolved mystery, it’s naturally evocative and compelling. I still think about it — a lot. And part of me somewhat hopes that we never find the answers, so that the Berkeley walls can always be a mystery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Extraordinary structures of the ancient past? Or completely mundane piles of rock?",
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"title": "Uncovering the Real Story Behind the 'East Bay Mystery Walls' | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was first published on Aug 31, 2018. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\">F\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>or more than a century, people in the Bay Area — and especially the East Bay — have puzzled over the existence of stone walls scattered on ridges from near San Jose north through the Berkeley Hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes the walls are built in long straight lines. Sometimes they form angles. Occasionally you’ll find rectangular or circular constructions.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cbr>\nWho built these things? How long ago? And why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe voyagers from a lost continent built them. Or visitors from outer space. Or a vanished tribe of “superior” Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>People have suggested these walls could have been meant for defense. Or as navigational aids for extraterrestrials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We started getting “mystery walls” questions almost as soon as Bay Curious opened for business, including one from Eric Haven. He’s an artist — he writes and draws graphic novels — and he’s been a producer on “MythBusters” as well as the reboot, “Mythbusters Jr.” So he’s someone who wants to get to the bottom of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His query was pretty straightforward: “Who built the East Bay mystery walls? They appear to be ancient, many hundreds or even thousands of years old.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eric came to the Bay Area in 1989. As we hiked up a steep, rocky trail in the Berkeley Hills to visit a wall segment there, he told me that’s when he first heard about a nearby “mystery wall.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And the way it was relayed to me was very much like urban myth or urban legend,” he said. “There are certain signifiers of that conversation — you know, the vagueness of it — and yet certain things are very specific. ‘No one knows who built it. No one knows why they built it.’ ”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11689988\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11689988\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-800x519.jpg\" alt=\"Segments of stone walls, like these on Monument Peak, in Ed Levin County Park near Milpitas, can be found throughout the hills of the East Bay.\" width=\"800\" height=\"519\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-800x519.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-160x104.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-1020x661.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-1200x778.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-1180x765.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-960x623.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-240x156.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-375x243.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32665_19025042463_9119852fb9_o-qut-520x337.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Segments of stone walls, like these on Monument Peak, in Ed Levin County Park near Milpitas, can be found throughout the hills of the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\">T\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>hat “no one knows” refrain is a constant in the story of the walls from the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to say precisely when locals might have started gossiping about the walls — or if they ever did — but the oldest published mention of the “mystery” appears to be \u003ca href=\"https://flic.kr/p/2aywx85\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">March 8, 1896,\u003c/a> in the Sunday San Francisco Chronicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Half a mile east of Grizzly Peak stand the remnants of stone walls which have long baffled the researches and curiosity of antiquarians,” the unbylined story said. “By whom they were erected, when and why is an unsolved mystery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The same little essay goes on to drop a theory or two: that perhaps the walls were the work of what it called “a long forgotten race,” or maybe the Aztecs of Mexico, who might have used the walls for defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For structures that have excited such feverish speculation for so long, most of them look pretty modest. The section Eric Haven and I tramped up to is actually kind of nondescript: about 100 feet long and just 2 or 3 feet high. The rocks used for construction — local limestone — are stacked or piled, not mortared or cut to fit. Most of the stones are small enough that one person could place them easily; some would have required a crew to put in place. Most are covered with lichens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we soaked in the atmosphere of the place — a spot with a sweeping view, but one we promised the property owners we wouldn’t disclose — Eric shared a friend’s idea about the origins of the walls. It’s a variation on the notion that Native Americans built these walls for a mystical purpose.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cbr>\n“His theory was that there was an earthquake here, and it opened up fissures in the ground,” Eric said. “And he thought these were purely ceremonial. They were here to appease whatever gods they thought were angered, or spirits, and this was a way to mark those fissures and to show those spirits they’d do whatever it takes so the earthquake doesn’t happen again.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before we headed back down the trail from the wall, we observed that the wall runs parallel to a modern barbed-wire fence that pretty clearly marks a property boundary. So this wall, perhaps, was built as part of a property line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690201\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11690201 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-800x504.jpg\" alt=\"A portion of walls with the Diablo Range in the background.\" width=\"800\" height=\"504\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-800x504.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-160x101.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-1020x642.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-1200x756.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-1180x743.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-960x605.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-240x151.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-375x236.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32679_19023508794_fb75164909_o-qut-1-520x327.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A portion of walls with the Diablo Range in the background. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\">L\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>ooking for an answer meant going through old newspaper stories, tracking down amateur sleuths’ accounts of the walls, searching old maps for evidence of the structures and finding out whether real live archaeologists had ever studied the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been many newspaper pieces over the years, starting with the Chronicle’s in 1896. Most have repeated the original article’s conclusion that the walls are an impenetrable enigma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For instance, in August 1904, the Chronicle ran another story on the walls, this time, as a big spread in the Sunday paper. It featured a dramatic illustration of stereotype savage fighting with spear and bow and arrow and hurling big rocks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was written by a guy named Harold French — a hiker, writer and clerk at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11667314/this-s-f-fortress-is-full-of-money-that-will-never-be-spent\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">San Francisco’s U.S. Mint\u003c/a>. The prose sounds a lot like that in the 1896 piece.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Did a colony from lost Atlantis once populate the Berkeley hills?” the story asked. “Are the ancient rock walls which crown the Contra Costa ridges remnants of a Toltec or a pre-Toltec civilization? Are these remarkable walls really relics of the Stone Age?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few weeks later, the Chronicle was back with another dramatic Sunday spread, announcing an amazing find unearthed by a University of California chemistry professor named Henry Coffinberry Myers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The headline declared that “stone age relics discovered in the Berkeley Hills … seem to change the accepted history of the Western world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The objects Myers said he’d uncovered during forays into the hills included a “five-faced stone image,” stone axes and pieces of pottery. Myers said that mineral deposits on the carved stone image proved it was 1,000 to 10,000 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Myers and other experts the Chronicle contacted said the artifacts and the walls in the hills were evidence that early hill dwellers — perhaps giants who had gained immense strength by lifting big rocks — had migrated from China.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Myers’ find was almost certainly a hoax. The Chronicle doesn’t appear to have said another word about the professor and his world-shattering discoveries. Myers left Berkeley shortly afterward to manage a sugar refinery in Hawaii. He eventually donated his artifacts — telling \u003ca href=\"http://kaga.wsulibs.wsu.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=%2Fclipping&CISOPTR=10799&DMSCALE=100.00000&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMMODE=viewer&DMFULL=0&DMOLDSCALE=16.35769&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&DMTHUMB=1&REC=1&DMROTATE=0&x=42&y=146\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">a different story\u003c/a> about where they’d come from — to a \u003ca href=\"http://spokanehistorical.org/items/show/536\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Bible college\u003c/a> in Spokane, Washington.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1908, the Berkeley Hills walls were back in the news. “Professor” Joseph Voyle, president of the Berkeley Society for Psychical Research, identified some of the walls as \u003ca href=\"http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19080622.2.60.11\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">remains of a prehistoric civilization\u003c/a>. He was led to the site by a kind of divining rod, and newspapers delighted in telling the tale of Voyle leading a group on an expedition into the wilds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(Voyle also claimed to have discovered a radium mine beneath San Francisco and reported he had invented an earthquake detector and figured out how to make non-intoxicating alcohol. He died an indigent in Alameda County’s public hospital in 1915, having succumbed to what one paper called “an infirmity of which he had long been a sufferer.”)\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690204\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11690204\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"The stone walls wind through the landscape on Monument Peak.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32677_19597532225_92ce855207_o-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The stone walls wind through the landscape on Monument Peak. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\">W\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>hile Myers and Voyle departed the scene, Harold French showed up again and again in print over the years promoting the legend of the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I say “legend” advisedly. In published writings through the early 1920s, French never failed to describe the walls as “prehistoric” or “ancient.” But beyond the walls’ mere presence, the only evidence he ever cited was the testimony of unnamed old-timers who, he said, had told him that the walls had been a puzzle to both Native Americans and early settlers alike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not clear if trained archaeologists ever seriously studied the walls at the time French was writing. At one point, French reported he had spoken to a “certain teacher of anthropology” at the University of California about the walls’ origins. The anthropologist reportedly responded:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From time to time my students have come and told me about these walls … but I never took them seriously enough to climb way up there in that ‘Beanstalk Land’ to see them. I suppose they are either old sheep corrals or ranch boundaries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11689477\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/Screen-Shot-2018-08-29-at-4.16.31-PM.png\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-large wp-image-11689477\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/Screen-Shot-2018-08-29-at-4.16.31-PM-1020x1172.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"640\" height=\"735\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An Oakland Tribune feature article on the East Bay Walls by writer and hiker Harold French.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Eventually, though, amateur researchers started trying to decipher the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One was Seth Simpson, who spent years documenting the presence of the walls and puzzling over their origins. His conclusion, \u003ca href=\"https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4807539/East-Bay-Walls-Simpson-Pursuit.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">summarized\u003c/a> in a 1972 number of Pursuit, the Journal of the Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained, is classic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Simpson said there was a possibility some of the walls had been erected by local tribes to trap and kill game. But for the rest, he said, “All I can suggest is that they were built by unknown persons, in an unknown year, for an unknown purpose … and very possibly they will remain a puzzle for the indefinite future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\">O\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>ther wall fanatics were exploring the hills, too. Robert Fisher, a physician from Fremont, and a friend from Berkeley, Russell Swanson, took a lively interest in the walls, especially those in the hills near the south end of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fisher and Swanson were inclined to see massive rock formations on the ridges and highlands as the work of unknown ancients they called “the Earliers.” The meaning of the walls, massive standing stones and outcroppings, was baffling. Fisher suggested some of the stone work could have served as navigational aids for extraterrestrials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least one real live archaeologist joined Fisher to tour one area of the hills — Monument Peak, above Milpitas in Santa Clara County’s Ed Levin Park. It’s a dramatic site, with wonderful stretches of walls snaking along ridges about 2,000 feet above the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an answer to an email query relayed through the Society for California Archaeology, Breck Parkman, a now-retired state parks archeologist, said that in the late 1980s a friend prevailed upon him to visit Monument Peak with Fisher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fisher “wanted me to come and authenticate what he was finding,” Parkman said in an email. “… I said, show me the best you have. He did.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parkman said the area featured “lots and lots of stone walls” he believed dated to sometime in the 1800s. Most were built, he felt, in the later years of the century, perhaps by Chinese workers, perhaps by Basque sheep herders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he found a handful of structures — possible hunting blinds and prayer circles — he thought could have been Native American in origin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was these features that convinced me that among the many late 19th century rock features in the East Bay Hills, we might find a few older features of importance,” Parkman wrote. “It would be worth checking out, but I don’t know who’d be interested in taking a systematic look at this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One reason that professionals may have stayed away from the walls, Parkman added, is “not wanting to be associated with the fringe element” responsible for the many wild wall hypotheses over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690202\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11690202\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"A portion of the stone walls found throughout the Berkeley Hills.\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-1180x664.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-960x540.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-240x135.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-375x211.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32680_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.40.56-PM-qut-520x293.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A portion of the stone walls found throughout the Berkeley Hills. \u003ccite>(Adam Grossberg/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\">A\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>nother archaeologist, Jeff Fentress, went up into the Berkeley Hills with me to look at the same section of wall I visited with our question asker, Eric Haven.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress, now retired from his position as a professor of archaeology at San Francisco State University, was raised nearby and said he’d been hearing stories about the walls since his boyhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I was growing up in Berkeley here, we were told the Lemurians built the walls, and the Lemurians were the inhabitants of the lost continent of Mu,” Fentress said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://www.crystalinks.com/lemuria.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Mu\u003c/a> is said to have existed out in the Pacific Ocean somewhere. And Fentress said stories like that are still coming up. The History Channel asked him whether a Chinese admiral might have erected the rock walls, and British TV interviewed him about whether the West African adventurers might have put up the walls during a visit 30,000 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress said the problem with all of those theories — Lemurians, Chinese, West Africans and extraterrestrials — is that there’s simply no evidence any of those real or imagined groups ever landed here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So I think you have to look at the walls in the context of who was actually here in the Bay Area,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690203\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11690203\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-800x446.jpg\" alt=\"Archaeologist Jeff Fentress says it would take a lot of time and money to definitively determine when the stone walls were built and by whom.\" width=\"800\" height=\"446\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-800x446.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-160x89.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-1020x569.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-1200x669.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-1180x658.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-960x536.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-240x134.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-375x209.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32682_Screen-Shot-2018-09-02-at-12.41.59-PM-qut-520x290.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archaeologist Jeff Fentress says it would take a lot of time and money to definitively determine when the stone walls were built and by whom. \u003ccite>(Adam Grossberg/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Native American tribes have populated the Bay Area for about 10,000 years, according to the latest estimates. They were here long before the arrival of Spanish and Mexican colonists and the Gold Rush-era invasion of Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Fentress said “there is no indication that Native American people built rock walls that extended for hundreds or thousands of feet. There are no accounts of them building massive wall structures or corrals or any of the other sort of rock features we see in the East Bay here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress and other archaeologists who have studied and recorded the walls agree that there is an explanation, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rock walls were the work of us — the people who pushed the native tribes off the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress said some wall building may have begun in the Mission period, and walls like the ones in the hills followed. Some were likely built to mark property lines. Many others were put up as part of ranching and farming operations, such as those that were known to have existed both in the Berkeley Hills and the Monument Peak area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also points to the many European immigrant groups known to have ranched and farmed in the hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Did these people make rock walls in their countries?” Fentress asks. “Look at them all — Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland and so on. \u003cem>Of course\u003c/em> they made rock walls.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11689494\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11689494\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/Screen-Shot-2018-08-29-at-10.05.19-PM-800x487.png\" alt=\"Fentress says the most likely answer is that European immigrants built the walls as functional parts of their lives that didn't rise to the level of recording their purpose.\" width=\"800\" height=\"487\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Fentress says the most likely answer is that European immigrants built the walls as functional parts of their lives that didn’t rise to the level of recording their purpose. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Fentress and others also point out there was no shortage of labor — provided either willingly or unwillingly. Chinese crews, paid as little as a penny a linear foot, were hired to build ranch walls in Mariposa and Tehama counties, for instance. And many Native Americans, displaced from their lands and denied basic civil rights, were forced into indentured servitude to provide labor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Fentress concedes his explanations for the walls are speculative and said you’d want to search for more evidence to back up what he and other researchers have observed and been told in the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The main thing to do would be to systematically record and map all the walls,” he said. Once the walls were mapped, researchers could compare their locations to older maps showing historic property lines and other features.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also said it could be useful to dig along the base of walls to study their construction and to look for artifacts. It would also help to study the rocks used in the structures to confirm what most people assume — that they come from the same area as the walls themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dating techniques could be useful, too. \u003ca href=\"https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4807533/Proceedings-of-the-Society-for-California.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">One experimental study\u003c/a> that used the growth of lichens as a dating technique estimated that the surviving wall segment in the Berkeley Hills may have been built between 1850 and 1880.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fentress said you’d want to do a more systematic study — a hundred lichen sites, say — to really come to a firm conclusion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Historical records — written accounts — could be important, too. But those are in short supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And really the reason is that, you know, we’re looking at — you could call it the archaeology of the common people, the archeology of the working class,” he said. “Back in 1850, if Mr. McGillicuddy cleared his fields and he built a wall between his property and Mr. Sousa next door, no one’s going to write a newspaper article about that. It’s not going to get in the history books. So all we have is the remains of these people showing their hard work and their ingenuity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11690200\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11690200\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Downtown San Jose rises in the distance behind a small collection of stones seen from Monument Peak.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2018/08/RS32678_19457917600_a0745537be_o-qut-1-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Downtown San Jose rises in the distance behind a small collection of stones seen from Monument Peak. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\">S\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>o, at the end of all this, there is still some mystery left in the walls and more work to be done to come to definitive answers. Eric Haven, who prompted our own investigation, said he’s OK with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People love a mystery,” he said. “And since this is an unsolved mystery, it’s naturally evocative and compelling. I still think about it — a lot. And part of me somewhat hopes that we never find the answers, so that the Berkeley walls can always be a mystery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
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"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
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"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
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"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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