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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4726760100\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em> health correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12057327/ai-prophets-and-spiritual-delusions\">AI Prophets and Spiritual Delusions\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Close All Tabs\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/202510/new-studies-reveal-mental-health-blindspots-of-ai-chatbots\">New Studies Reveal Mental Health Blindspots of AI Chatbots\u003c/a> — Marlynn Wei, \u003ci>Psychology Today\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/07/nx-s1-5771707/mental-health-care-workforce-artificial-intelligence-ai\">AI in the mental health care workforce is met with fear, pushback — and enthusiasm\u003c/a> — Rhitu Chatterjee, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! You’re listening to Close All Tabs, and I’m Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May is Mental Health Awareness Month. With the proliferation of AI tools over the last few years, many people have turned to chatbots for companionship, advice … and even therapy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes sense — healthcare in the US can be completely inaccessible, especially when it comes to mental health treatment. But in some cases, AI chatbots can put very vulnerable users in danger.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In light of that, mental health has been at the forefront of conversations about AI use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, for Mental Health Awareness Month, we’re re-airing an episode that explores that exact topic. A quick heads up: this episode includes discussion of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In January 2026, Character.AI agreed to settle multiple lawsuits that alleged that the chatbot contributed to mental health issues among teenagers. Other companies have faced similar lawsuits, after several users died by suicide, allegedly at the encouragement of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "My Therapist Is a Chatbot (Reload) | KQED",
"description": "What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot? For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. Note: This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised. This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025. ",
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"socialDescription": "What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot? For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. Note: This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised. This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4726760100\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em> health correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12057327/ai-prophets-and-spiritual-delusions\">AI Prophets and Spiritual Delusions\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Close All Tabs\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/202510/new-studies-reveal-mental-health-blindspots-of-ai-chatbots\">New Studies Reveal Mental Health Blindspots of AI Chatbots\u003c/a> — Marlynn Wei, \u003ci>Psychology Today\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/07/nx-s1-5771707/mental-health-care-workforce-artificial-intelligence-ai\">AI in the mental health care workforce is met with fear, pushback — and enthusiasm\u003c/a> — Rhitu Chatterjee, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! You’re listening to Close All Tabs, and I’m Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May is Mental Health Awareness Month. With the proliferation of AI tools over the last few years, many people have turned to chatbots for companionship, advice … and even therapy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes sense — healthcare in the US can be completely inaccessible, especially when it comes to mental health treatment. But in some cases, AI chatbots can put very vulnerable users in danger.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In light of that, mental health has been at the forefront of conversations about AI use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, for Mental Health Awareness Month, we’re re-airing an episode that explores that exact topic. A quick heads up: this episode includes discussion of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In January 2026, Character.AI agreed to settle multiple lawsuits that alleged that the chatbot contributed to mental health issues among teenagers. Other companies have faced similar lawsuits, after several users died by suicide, allegedly at the encouragement of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "These UC Berkeley Students Are Leading the Fight Against Phones",
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"content": "\u003cp>On a sunny Friday afternoon at Memorial Glade, the center of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/uc-berkeley\">UC Berkeley’s campus\u003c/a>, students set up volleyball nets, cornhole, picnic blankets and a makeshift plywood stage for live music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their goal? To throw a phone-free party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Music blasted from a speaker near a snack table. Colorful, handwritten signs read messages like “Favorite app? Delete it,” and “Take back your mind.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a check-in table, students had the option to seal their cell phones in a plastic bag. Nearby, students propped up gravestones cut out of posterboard, each bearing the logo of a different social media app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The event was hosted by \u003ca href=\"https://www.projectreboot.school/\">Project Reboot\u003c/a>, an organization born on Berkeley’s campus, with the mission of helping young people “reset their tech habits, reclaim their time and regain their focus.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The project began in the form of a semester-long class that helped students reduce their screen time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12081401 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A handmade sign reads “Live With Intention” at a phone-free event at UC Berkeley on Friday, April 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Eliza Peppel/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I feel like [screen] addiction has kind of been our birthright,” said Dawson Kelly, a third-year student and one of the event’s hosts. Kelly said he’s working on a thesis about digital dependence. “We need more infrastructure for our generation to take back our time, take back our agency, and look at all the things that have been stolen from us, and not let this be the anxious generation that we’ve been made out to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sahar Yousef, a Berkeley neuroscientist and lecturer who serves on Project Reboot’s research advisory board, said her students are increasingly pushing back “against the default of being on their phones, constantly scrolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is truly a demonstration that they’ve wanted to put together,” Yousef said, “to demonstrate what has really been taken from them.”[aside postID=news_12078253 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240104-PEOPLES-PARK-MD-05-1020x680.jpg']According to a survey of UC Berkeley undergraduates, 78% of students reported that they believe their phone use “prevents them from thinking deeply, being creative, or engaging fully with ideas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Third-year students Ashlyn Torres and Izzy Newman said they found out about Friday’s event from a flier, instead of through the usual social media channels. Torres said she left her phone at home before joining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was different this morning because I was able to recognize there is life around me,” she said. “And we probably should talk to each other more and just listen to what the world has to offer rather than just what our phones have to offer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jonny Vasquez is a third-year student and advocate for reduced screen time on campus. To reach other students, he said, he started standing in a busy area of campus holding a sign that read, “Lowest screentime contest.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People would either completely ignore the sign,” Vasquez said, “or they would come up and say, ‘Oh my goodness, I’ve been waiting for someone to help us with this.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Vasquez said that since he deleted his social media accounts, he’s stopped comparing himself to others and experiences greater overall satisfaction with his life. He said he hopes to continue to share that with others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Students rally during a game of volleyball on the grass at a phone-free gathering at UC Berkeley on Friday, April 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Eliza Peppel/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Several students offered each other tips about creating some distance with their phones, including plugging it in out of reach overnight, turning it completely off while socializing, and leaning on a community with like-minded goals to hold each other accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly said that the movement the students hope to create is about their personal agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These are the peak years of our lives, and they’ve been stolen from us by companies that are making billions and billions of dollars every single year to take as much of our time as possible. We have to fight back, and we fight back by connecting and engaging in a life that we should have been living from the beginning.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>On a sunny Friday afternoon at Memorial Glade, the center of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/uc-berkeley\">UC Berkeley’s campus\u003c/a>, students set up volleyball nets, cornhole, picnic blankets and a makeshift plywood stage for live music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their goal? To throw a phone-free party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Music blasted from a speaker near a snack table. Colorful, handwritten signs read messages like “Favorite app? Delete it,” and “Take back your mind.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a check-in table, students had the option to seal their cell phones in a plastic bag. Nearby, students propped up gravestones cut out of posterboard, each bearing the logo of a different social media app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The event was hosted by \u003ca href=\"https://www.projectreboot.school/\">Project Reboot\u003c/a>, an organization born on Berkeley’s campus, with the mission of helping young people “reset their tech habits, reclaim their time and regain their focus.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The project began in the form of a semester-long class that helped students reduce their screen time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12081401 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A handmade sign reads “Live With Intention” at a phone-free event at UC Berkeley on Friday, April 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Eliza Peppel/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I feel like [screen] addiction has kind of been our birthright,” said Dawson Kelly, a third-year student and one of the event’s hosts. Kelly said he’s working on a thesis about digital dependence. “We need more infrastructure for our generation to take back our time, take back our agency, and look at all the things that have been stolen from us, and not let this be the anxious generation that we’ve been made out to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sahar Yousef, a Berkeley neuroscientist and lecturer who serves on Project Reboot’s research advisory board, said her students are increasingly pushing back “against the default of being on their phones, constantly scrolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is truly a demonstration that they’ve wanted to put together,” Yousef said, “to demonstrate what has really been taken from them.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>According to a survey of UC Berkeley undergraduates, 78% of students reported that they believe their phone use “prevents them from thinking deeply, being creative, or engaging fully with ideas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Third-year students Ashlyn Torres and Izzy Newman said they found out about Friday’s event from a flier, instead of through the usual social media channels. Torres said she left her phone at home before joining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was different this morning because I was able to recognize there is life around me,” she said. “And we probably should talk to each other more and just listen to what the world has to offer rather than just what our phones have to offer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jonny Vasquez is a third-year student and advocate for reduced screen time on campus. To reach other students, he said, he started standing in a busy area of campus holding a sign that read, “Lowest screentime contest.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People would either completely ignore the sign,” Vasquez said, “or they would come up and say, ‘Oh my goodness, I’ve been waiting for someone to help us with this.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Vasquez said that since he deleted his social media accounts, he’s stopped comparing himself to others and experiences greater overall satisfaction with his life. He said he hopes to continue to share that with others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Students rally during a game of volleyball on the grass at a phone-free gathering at UC Berkeley on Friday, April 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Eliza Peppel/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Several students offered each other tips about creating some distance with their phones, including plugging it in out of reach overnight, turning it completely off while socializing, and leaning on a community with like-minded goals to hold each other accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly said that the movement the students hope to create is about their personal agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These are the peak years of our lives, and they’ve been stolen from us by companies that are making billions and billions of dollars every single year to take as much of our time as possible. We have to fight back, and we fight back by connecting and engaging in a life that we should have been living from the beginning.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "a-los-angeles-woman-was-lost-an-ambitious-mental-health-program-gave-her-a-sense-of-purpose",
"title": "A Los Angeles Woman Was Lost. An Ambitious Mental Health Program Gave Her a Sense of Purpose",
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"content": "\u003cp>When Mignon Poon strode into the small clubhouse kitchen \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/los-angeles-county\">in Hollywood\u003c/a> on a morning in late November, a lunch recipe waited on the table: for barbecued chicken, mac and cheese and collard greens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She pulled on a pair of hygienic gloves and, with Motown vibes wafting from a Bluetooth speaker, got to work with two fellow members of the clubhouse, called \u003ca href=\"https://www.fountainhouse.org/services/hollywood\">Fountain House Hollywood\u003c/a>, chatting and singing along as they cooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Poon, 66, this easy camaraderie was nearly unimaginable just three years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’d spent decades living with severe, untreated mental illness, bouncing from the streets to homeless shelters. To quiet her mind, she self-medicated with alcohol and, sometimes, hard drugs. It all led to countless nights spent sleeping on the hard ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This place right here saved me,” Poon, whose caramel eyes shine with playful mischief, said at the clubhouse, a bustling collective that operates out of a repurposed Sunset Boulevard office space. “Besides get up and start drinking, I get dressed and come here. It gives me something to look forward to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076577\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076577\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mignon Annette Poon is pictured at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The private, nonprofit clubhouse is open to anyone diagnosed with a serious mental illness who lives, works or receives mental health treatment in Hollywood. The Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health doesn’t run it. In fact, there are no clinicians on staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County mental health leaders partnered with a \u003ca href=\"https://www.fountainhouse.org/about\">storied New York-based nonprofit\u003c/a> to bring the clubhouse to Los Angeles, so their clients could participate. It’s part of an ambitious multilayered pilot project — which seeks to collaborate with community organizations to build an ecosystem of care that goes well beyond conventional clinical treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fountain House Hollywood is just one piece of that project to remake mental health care in the neighborhood, which officials termed “\u003ca href=\"https://www.hollywood4wrd.org/hollywood-2-0\">Hollywood 2.0.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hollywood 2.0 architects say intensive intervention by clinical teams, who deliver treatment on the streets and in shelters, is a must for people like Poon, who’ve survived unhoused and untreated for years, often with \u003ca href=\"http://www.samhsa.gov/substance-use/treatment/co-occurring-disorders\">co-occurring addictions\u003c/a>. So is safe and stable housing. But true recovery, they maintain, requires more: a sense of agency, purpose, belonging and joy, in community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon, one of Hollywood 2.0’s earliest clients, is thriving. And when it comes to that sense of belonging, she and her care team agree: the clubhouse has been key.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those who choose to join come on weekdays, set the agenda and commit to one of two work assignments to keep the place running. Poon picked the hospitality team, which does all the shopping, meal planning, cooking and serving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We respect each other,” she said of her peers. “It’s a family. It’s a community. It’s love.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A core trauma \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Poon is an elegant dresser who favors rose-tinted glasses that lend her an air of celebrity. She grew up in Albany, Georgia, three hours south of Atlanta. Her mom was born to a Black mother and white father; Her dad was Seminole Indian. “That made me international flavors,” she said, smiling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her mother earned four college degrees, but was often absent, Poon said, and alcoholism haunted the family for generations. At age 17, Poon ran away from home with a man she described as a pimp and a dope dealer.[aside postID=news_12075065 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260116-NewsomLuriePresser-32-BL_qed.jpg'] “I didn’t know what sex trafficking meant,” she said. “No one talked about it back then.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He put her on a plane to San Francisco, where she peddled her body and his drugs. In time, she was jailed for selling drugs to an undercover cop. She got out, had a brief relationship, got pregnant, then moved to Los Angeles and was jailed again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wanted my daughter,” Poon said softly, “so I had her.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At 20 years old, Poon gave birth on May 8, 1980, just before Mother’s Day, in the jail ward of the county hospital. Her little girl, who she named Sabrina, was premature and drug addicted, and went straight to an incubator. Soon after, Poon lost her child to the foster care system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a trauma, Poon said she revisits every Mother’s Day, every Christmas — practically every day. A few years after her daughter was taken from her, she said she called the county to try to get her back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They said, ‘Oh, she’s been adopted,’” Poon said. “That screwed me up. I was depressed and didn’t even know I was depressed. Didn’t take no medication.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She didn’t know it, but in addition to depression, she was experiencing cycles of mania and psychosis. Early each morning, as years turned to decades, she’d start drinking. She’d argue with shelter roommates and neighbors, she said, disputes she called “misunderstandings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076576\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076576\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mignon Annette Poon leads a morning meeting with the hospitality team at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I would get places and lose them,” said Poon. “I was homeless.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her eldest sister, Rosemary Swan, 69, kept track of Poon’s journey whenever she could: a decade or more in Washington D.C., a long stint on the streets of Atlanta, and through Poon’s travels in the Midwest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For a long time she was like a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/blog/understanding-dual-diagnosis/\">dual-diagnosis\u003c/a> case,” said Swan, who noted that mental illness, like alcoholism, also runs in the family. “It just went unmanaged.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every time she spoke to her younger sister, that core trauma came up: the loss of her daughter. So, Swan tried to help Poon find Sabrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For over 25 years, she worried me about it,” Swan said. “I kept telling her, I’m trying, I’m trying. It hurt me that I couldn’t find the child. It’s probably why she went back to California. She never gave up.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A reunion\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 2016, Poon returned to the streets of Los Angeles. Then, in 2018, while staying at a shelter in South Los Angeles, she picked up her cell phone and went down a rabbit hole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She knew her daughter’s first name and birthdate. A Google search yielded gold, because Sabrina Bradley — her adoptive father’s last name — had a booming \u003ca href=\"https://www.skinbysabrina.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorTkD-tr6DmSKh_JklKwcdqZpILJyuVhp4J6FhOfmwPo95nQJS5\">skin care business\u003c/a> and big \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/sabrinatoday/\">online presence\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080804\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-scaled.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080804\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-scaled.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-scaled.jpeg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-2000x2667.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-160x213.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-1152x1536.jpeg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-1536x2048.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sabrina Bradley and her birth mother, Mignon Poon, embrace after reuniting in October 2018. Today, with Poon in recovery, they’re bonding. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Sabrina Bradley)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As a child, Bradley said, she’d tell her dad, “The angels are around me, my mom is near me. And everyone would be, like, ‘there she goes in her fantasy world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By age 29, while living in Portland, she made a vow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I told myself, I’m going to move [back] to Los Angeles, and I’m going to do two things,” said Bradley, now 45. “Find my mother and create a name for myself in the beauty business.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She achieved her second goal, and on a Sunday in 2018, was praying on the first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I said God, if you’re real, just give me a sign, just show me that my mom is near me,” Bradley recalled. “I won’t ask for anything else. But if you’re real, please show me. Please show me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That evening, after a schedule packed with clients, her phone rang. The woman on the line asked for “Sabrina, the esthetician.” Bradley assumed she wanted to book a facial. “No,’ the caller responded. “My name’s Mignon Poon. I’m your mom.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bradley went straight to the shelter and brought Poon into her home. But her mother was still using drugs, Bradley said, and her mental illness remained untreated. Police showed up at the house more than once when Poon was having what appeared to be a manic episode, banging on the doors of random neighbors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’d been together for just three weeks. Then, Bradley put her mom in a cab, and communications between them went dark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Me and her had a misunderstanding,” said Poon. “I had to go back to the shelter.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Poon returned to her old life, something was happening in LA County mental health offices and nonprofit community meeting spaces. The project that would come to be known as Hollywood 2.0 was taking shape.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The right to a whole life\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The seed was planted more than a dozen years ago. The Hollywood neighborhood was benefiting from a burst of investment — hotels, housing and retail. But homelessness was also on the rise. \u003ca href=\"https://www.heartforwardla.org/our-staff\">Kerry Morrison\u003c/a>, who then ran Hollywood’s business improvement district, said she came face to face daily with people “that stayed for months if not years in the same alley or the same bus bench.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Morrison was not a mental health expert, but she was a community leader. She had helped pull together a \u003ca href=\"https://www.hollywood4wrd.org/about\">coalition \u003c/a>of Hollywood homeless service providers and nonprofits, and in 2013, they identified the people outside “most likely to die unless we intervened.” All were living with serious mental illness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076575\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076575\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The meditation room and library at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 2015, she applied for a fellowship to study one question: “Why is it so hard to help people with serious mental illness move from the streets into a safe place, and who is doing it better?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her research took her all the way to \u003ca href=\"https://mindsitenews.org/2021/09/29/the-old-asylum-is-gone-today-a-mental-health-system-serves-all/\">Trieste\u003c/a>, Italy, a port city on the Adriatic coast. Trieste had emptied its psychiatric hospital system decades earlier, just like \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7356002/\">California did\u003c/a> starting in the late 1960s. But Trieste shifted instead towards something more holistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rather than the U.S. top-down approach of “experts” dictating treatment, Morrison said, she witnessed respectful collaboration in Trieste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They talk more about life plans and life aspirations than diagnoses or symptoms,” she said, “and when you operate with that kind of cultural predisposition, all the edges get softened, trust begins to emerge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Social collectives provide paid jobs and community connections to those living with serious mental illness. The hospital’s small psychiatric ward was unlocked, not even full, and Morrison saw no one living on the streets with untreated psychosis. The community clinics, where staff and clients share meals, she said, felt “incredibly warm and open and free. You can come anytime to talk to anyone, without an appointment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076574\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076574\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mignon Annette Poon shows off the small store area at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Morrison said she wept as her first visit came to an end.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know what to do with this,” she told her guide. “I run a business improvement district. No one is ever gonna believe me that you guys are so kind and compassionate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She was wrong. She cold-called Jonathan Sherin, the then-head of the Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health, and he went all in. In 2017, he and Morrison traveled back to Italy for \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYydKZzIGM\">a tour and a conference \u003c/a>focused on the importance of nurturing aspirations, relationships and personal fulfillment in those living with mental illness. Joining them was a small group of Los Angeles County leaders, mental health advocates, law enforcement representatives and a judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Everybody was gobsmacked,” Morrison said. “And that’s how it started.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The region served by Trieste’s mental health system is home to fewer than 300,000 people, compared to Los Angeles County’s population of nearly 10 million. Italy has socialized medicine. The U.S. does not. And here, with a crisis on the streets, so many public health officials stress that \u003ca href=\"https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00127-020-01849-1\">getting people inside \u003c/a>is paramount.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The small group of travelers knew they had to adapt their approach to those realities, and for a true community solution, they had to concentrate the effort. They settled on Hollywood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2022, the California Mental Health Oversight and Accountability Commission awarded the county a \u003ca href=\"https://file.lacounty.gov/SDSInter/bos/supdocs/6e2457e0-2310-4564-a15a-e1c249bbbee2.pdf\">grant of nearly $117 million \u003c/a>for a five-year pilot. The goal: to seed a new culture of recovery in the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A crossroads\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That summer, another “misunderstanding.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon was arrested for assaulting a drinking buddy, an elderly neighbor at an East Los Angeles apartment building where she’d finally found herself a place. She was facing felony charges and possible state prison time. From jail, she called Swan, who tapped her life savings to get her sister out on bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But once Mignon walked free, she refused contact with the family, Swan said, so she wrote the public defender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Drug testing, mental health treatment, anything but prison,” she pleaded in a letter, and she begged him to get her sister a diagnosis. “She [has] been needing one for about fifty years, if not sixty,” she said. “I told him!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, Poon was back on \u003ca href=\"https://homeless.lacounty.gov/skid-row-2/\">Skid Row\u003c/a>. She was feeling the weight of her age, so she made a choice to head to Hollywood, where neighborhood homeless outreach teams regularly “wake you up and ask you, ‘Why you not housed?’” she said. “Then you explain your situation, and they try to help you get into a shelter.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was her big break. Poon landed at a Hollywood women’s shelter where staff reached out to the Los Angeles County Mental Health Department on her behalf — just as they were layering key pieces of the Hollywood 2.0 pilot into place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s when I got my social worker, therapist and my psychiatrist,” said Poon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, as two of her Hollywood 2.0 clinicians put it, Poon’s inner spirit shines through. Dr. Jonathan Gomez, her first psychiatrist under the program, and Eleanor Bray, her current social worker, described her as charismatic, sweet, welcoming and warm, with a dose of sass and a sense of humor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when Gomez first visited Poon in August of 2023 at the shelter, she struck him as “one of the most symptomatically-distressed people I’ve seen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon believed the neighbor she’d assaulted was part of a conspiracy to electronically monitor her and had implanted a device in her foot, he said. She was so focused on this violation that she could hardly finish a sentence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was like, yeah, let’s look at your foot,” he said. “Let’s also talk about how much of this comes and goes with your sleep pattern and with the substance use.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon has a diagnosis now: schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type. Mania from bipolar disorder can cause psychosis. Poon’s diagnosis is schizoaffective because she sometimes experiences psychosis when she\u003cem> isn’t\u003c/em> manic. But what matters more than that diagnostic label is alleviating distress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076579\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076579\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Program director McKenzie Dowdle, left, helps Mignon Annette Poon prepare lunch for members and staff in the kitchen at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Hollywood 2.0 approach had him visiting her at the shelter once a week. It allowed them to work together to fine-tune her medication regimen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think they help me stay focused, stay positive, stay uplifted,” Poon said of the meds, “helping my thoughts to be clear.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, Poon was ready to move to transitional housing. But she was feeling paranoid about her shelter roommate, Gomez said, and told him she might head back to the streets. With his input, her care team got her into \u003ca href=\"https://homeless.lacounty.gov/news/help-at-a-hollywood-hotel/\">The Mark Twain Hotel\u003c/a>, which had just been repurposed as Hollywood 2.0 transitional housing with intensive onsite support — and single rooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was there, more than two and a half years ago, that Poon took her last sip of alcohol. Five months later, to her sister’s delight, a judge granted her mental health diversion. If she stayed on course, the felony charges against her would be dismissed. And in September 2024, Mignon’s team helped her move into her very own subsidized apartment.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>“Community will heal us all”\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Getting a client medicated, sober and permanently housed is often considered the pinnacle of success. But after years in survival mode, said Bray, Poon’s social worker, finding oneself alone without all the support of transitional housing programs “can be quite shocking.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Fountain House Hollywood clubhouse had opened its doors on Sunset Boulevard in July of 2024, joining more than 300 others \u003ca href=\"https://clubhouse-intl.org/\">worldwide\u003c/a> that hew to the same philosophy: empowering members to take ownership of their own recovery.[aside postID=news_12074674 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_011-KQED.jpg'] When Poon moved into her own apartment two months later, Bray encouraged her to check it out, and said it’s been “monumental in her recovery.” There, she said, Poon is making friends, collaborating on a common purpose, learning to follow recipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her thoughts still return to memories of that conspiracy to electronically monitor her. In the lexicon of psychiatry, that’s known as a \u003ca href=\"https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/9599-delusional-disorder\">fixed delusion\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Poon, it’s truth. But she said her medication appears to be helping. Meanwhile, she is embracing the coping mechanisms that she and Bray have worked on together: distraction from the inner life with a focus on the here and now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Something like cooking is very grounding,” Bray said. “You’re very out of your head, you’re very in your body. Plus the aspect of community, I mean, I think community is really the thing that will heal us all.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Final pieces\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>So far, Hollywood 2.0 has moved more than 700 people off the streets, helping to slash the neighborhood’s homelessness by \u003ca href=\"https://www.rand.org/news/press/2025/07/number-of-unhoused-residents-drops-across-three-la.html\">nearly half\u003c/a> in 2024 alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076580\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076580\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Program director McKenzie Dowdle, left, chats with Mignon Annette Poon as they prepare lunch for members and staff in the kitchen at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There’s job counseling, and a new welcoming clinic for clients well enough to get there on their own. Poon will soon join them. An urgent care drop-in and peer-respite center is scheduled to open later this year, so those in crisis can be stabilized without the trauma of hospitalization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this fall, at more than 170 members and counting, Fountain House Hollywood will move to a much larger space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A final step is now taking shape: persuading Hollywood businesses and residents \u003ca href=\"https://www.hollywood4wrd.org/hollywood-2-0/volunteer\">to take part\u003c/a>, by donating, hiring participants or committing to spend quality time with them by volunteering, leading classes and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s such a big, big change we’re looking to achieve,” said Morrison, “and that’s why I keep calling it a generational change. This is just the beginning of something.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A calm life\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081244\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 731px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SabrinaMignonOriginalPhoto.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081244\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SabrinaMignonOriginalPhoto.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"731\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SabrinaMignonOriginalPhoto.jpeg 731w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SabrinaMignonOriginalPhoto-160x280.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 731px) 100vw, 731px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sabrina Bradley and her birth mother, Mignon Poon, attended the clubhouse’s 2024 Thanksgiving celebration. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Sabrina Bradley)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Last month, Poon returned to criminal court for the last time, for dismissal of her charges. Her life is calm, she said, anchored by the clubhouse — and a budding relationship with her daughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon reached out to her daughter again once she was treated and sober.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She likes strawberry milkshakes, so I would take her to Mel’s Diner,” Bradley said of her mother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they’ve taken two road trips to Las Vegas and are discovering common passions: butterflies, the colors pink — “girly stuff,” Bradley said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Her bathroom and my bathroom are like the same, you know, beauty products all over the place, hair products all over the place.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We still bonding,” said Poon. “We still working on our relationship.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state grant for the Hollywood 2.0 pilot program runs out next year. And MediCal, which has helped fund the program, is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12051681/local-health-providers-prepare-for-medi-cal-cuts\">threatened by big federal cuts\u003c/a>. But Los Angeles County mental health leaders said they’ll find ways to keep the successful parts of the project going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Already, they have plans to open clubhouses in six more neighborhoods. Each, they said, could become a hub for community-based healing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This reporting was supported in part by California Humanities, the California Health Care Foundation and the California Endowment. It’s part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"http://novemberinmysoul.com\">\u003cem>November In My Soul\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a narrative podcast co-created by Lee Romney and former public defender Jenny Johnson that is slated for release in 2027\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>When Mignon Poon strode into the small clubhouse kitchen \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/los-angeles-county\">in Hollywood\u003c/a> on a morning in late November, a lunch recipe waited on the table: for barbecued chicken, mac and cheese and collard greens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She pulled on a pair of hygienic gloves and, with Motown vibes wafting from a Bluetooth speaker, got to work with two fellow members of the clubhouse, called \u003ca href=\"https://www.fountainhouse.org/services/hollywood\">Fountain House Hollywood\u003c/a>, chatting and singing along as they cooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Poon, 66, this easy camaraderie was nearly unimaginable just three years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’d spent decades living with severe, untreated mental illness, bouncing from the streets to homeless shelters. To quiet her mind, she self-medicated with alcohol and, sometimes, hard drugs. It all led to countless nights spent sleeping on the hard ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This place right here saved me,” Poon, whose caramel eyes shine with playful mischief, said at the clubhouse, a bustling collective that operates out of a repurposed Sunset Boulevard office space. “Besides get up and start drinking, I get dressed and come here. It gives me something to look forward to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076577\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076577\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_13-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mignon Annette Poon is pictured at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The private, nonprofit clubhouse is open to anyone diagnosed with a serious mental illness who lives, works or receives mental health treatment in Hollywood. The Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health doesn’t run it. In fact, there are no clinicians on staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County mental health leaders partnered with a \u003ca href=\"https://www.fountainhouse.org/about\">storied New York-based nonprofit\u003c/a> to bring the clubhouse to Los Angeles, so their clients could participate. It’s part of an ambitious multilayered pilot project — which seeks to collaborate with community organizations to build an ecosystem of care that goes well beyond conventional clinical treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fountain House Hollywood is just one piece of that project to remake mental health care in the neighborhood, which officials termed “\u003ca href=\"https://www.hollywood4wrd.org/hollywood-2-0\">Hollywood 2.0.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hollywood 2.0 architects say intensive intervention by clinical teams, who deliver treatment on the streets and in shelters, is a must for people like Poon, who’ve survived unhoused and untreated for years, often with \u003ca href=\"http://www.samhsa.gov/substance-use/treatment/co-occurring-disorders\">co-occurring addictions\u003c/a>. So is safe and stable housing. But true recovery, they maintain, requires more: a sense of agency, purpose, belonging and joy, in community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon, one of Hollywood 2.0’s earliest clients, is thriving. And when it comes to that sense of belonging, she and her care team agree: the clubhouse has been key.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those who choose to join come on weekdays, set the agenda and commit to one of two work assignments to keep the place running. Poon picked the hospitality team, which does all the shopping, meal planning, cooking and serving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We respect each other,” she said of her peers. “It’s a family. It’s a community. It’s love.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A core trauma \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Poon is an elegant dresser who favors rose-tinted glasses that lend her an air of celebrity. She grew up in Albany, Georgia, three hours south of Atlanta. Her mom was born to a Black mother and white father; Her dad was Seminole Indian. “That made me international flavors,” she said, smiling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her mother earned four college degrees, but was often absent, Poon said, and alcoholism haunted the family for generations. At age 17, Poon ran away from home with a man she described as a pimp and a dope dealer.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> “I didn’t know what sex trafficking meant,” she said. “No one talked about it back then.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He put her on a plane to San Francisco, where she peddled her body and his drugs. In time, she was jailed for selling drugs to an undercover cop. She got out, had a brief relationship, got pregnant, then moved to Los Angeles and was jailed again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wanted my daughter,” Poon said softly, “so I had her.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At 20 years old, Poon gave birth on May 8, 1980, just before Mother’s Day, in the jail ward of the county hospital. Her little girl, who she named Sabrina, was premature and drug addicted, and went straight to an incubator. Soon after, Poon lost her child to the foster care system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a trauma, Poon said she revisits every Mother’s Day, every Christmas — practically every day. A few years after her daughter was taken from her, she said she called the county to try to get her back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They said, ‘Oh, she’s been adopted,’” Poon said. “That screwed me up. I was depressed and didn’t even know I was depressed. Didn’t take no medication.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She didn’t know it, but in addition to depression, she was experiencing cycles of mania and psychosis. Early each morning, as years turned to decades, she’d start drinking. She’d argue with shelter roommates and neighbors, she said, disputes she called “misunderstandings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076576\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076576\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_07-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mignon Annette Poon leads a morning meeting with the hospitality team at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I would get places and lose them,” said Poon. “I was homeless.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her eldest sister, Rosemary Swan, 69, kept track of Poon’s journey whenever she could: a decade or more in Washington D.C., a long stint on the streets of Atlanta, and through Poon’s travels in the Midwest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For a long time she was like a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/blog/understanding-dual-diagnosis/\">dual-diagnosis\u003c/a> case,” said Swan, who noted that mental illness, like alcoholism, also runs in the family. “It just went unmanaged.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every time she spoke to her younger sister, that core trauma came up: the loss of her daughter. So, Swan tried to help Poon find Sabrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For over 25 years, she worried me about it,” Swan said. “I kept telling her, I’m trying, I’m trying. It hurt me that I couldn’t find the child. It’s probably why she went back to California. She never gave up.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A reunion\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 2016, Poon returned to the streets of Los Angeles. Then, in 2018, while staying at a shelter in South Los Angeles, she picked up her cell phone and went down a rabbit hole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She knew her daughter’s first name and birthdate. A Google search yielded gold, because Sabrina Bradley — her adoptive father’s last name — had a booming \u003ca href=\"https://www.skinbysabrina.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorTkD-tr6DmSKh_JklKwcdqZpILJyuVhp4J6FhOfmwPo95nQJS5\">skin care business\u003c/a> and big \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/sabrinatoday/\">online presence\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080804\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-scaled.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080804\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-scaled.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-scaled.jpeg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-2000x2667.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-160x213.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-1152x1536.jpeg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/MignonSabrinaReuniteOct2018-1536x2048.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sabrina Bradley and her birth mother, Mignon Poon, embrace after reuniting in October 2018. Today, with Poon in recovery, they’re bonding. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Sabrina Bradley)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As a child, Bradley said, she’d tell her dad, “The angels are around me, my mom is near me. And everyone would be, like, ‘there she goes in her fantasy world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By age 29, while living in Portland, she made a vow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I told myself, I’m going to move [back] to Los Angeles, and I’m going to do two things,” said Bradley, now 45. “Find my mother and create a name for myself in the beauty business.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She achieved her second goal, and on a Sunday in 2018, was praying on the first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I said God, if you’re real, just give me a sign, just show me that my mom is near me,” Bradley recalled. “I won’t ask for anything else. But if you’re real, please show me. Please show me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That evening, after a schedule packed with clients, her phone rang. The woman on the line asked for “Sabrina, the esthetician.” Bradley assumed she wanted to book a facial. “No,’ the caller responded. “My name’s Mignon Poon. I’m your mom.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bradley went straight to the shelter and brought Poon into her home. But her mother was still using drugs, Bradley said, and her mental illness remained untreated. Police showed up at the house more than once when Poon was having what appeared to be a manic episode, banging on the doors of random neighbors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’d been together for just three weeks. Then, Bradley put her mom in a cab, and communications between them went dark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Me and her had a misunderstanding,” said Poon. “I had to go back to the shelter.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Poon returned to her old life, something was happening in LA County mental health offices and nonprofit community meeting spaces. The project that would come to be known as Hollywood 2.0 was taking shape.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The right to a whole life\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The seed was planted more than a dozen years ago. The Hollywood neighborhood was benefiting from a burst of investment — hotels, housing and retail. But homelessness was also on the rise. \u003ca href=\"https://www.heartforwardla.org/our-staff\">Kerry Morrison\u003c/a>, who then ran Hollywood’s business improvement district, said she came face to face daily with people “that stayed for months if not years in the same alley or the same bus bench.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Morrison was not a mental health expert, but she was a community leader. She had helped pull together a \u003ca href=\"https://www.hollywood4wrd.org/about\">coalition \u003c/a>of Hollywood homeless service providers and nonprofits, and in 2013, they identified the people outside “most likely to die unless we intervened.” All were living with serious mental illness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076575\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076575\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_05-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The meditation room and library at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 2015, she applied for a fellowship to study one question: “Why is it so hard to help people with serious mental illness move from the streets into a safe place, and who is doing it better?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her research took her all the way to \u003ca href=\"https://mindsitenews.org/2021/09/29/the-old-asylum-is-gone-today-a-mental-health-system-serves-all/\">Trieste\u003c/a>, Italy, a port city on the Adriatic coast. Trieste had emptied its psychiatric hospital system decades earlier, just like \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7356002/\">California did\u003c/a> starting in the late 1960s. But Trieste shifted instead towards something more holistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rather than the U.S. top-down approach of “experts” dictating treatment, Morrison said, she witnessed respectful collaboration in Trieste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They talk more about life plans and life aspirations than diagnoses or symptoms,” she said, “and when you operate with that kind of cultural predisposition, all the edges get softened, trust begins to emerge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Social collectives provide paid jobs and community connections to those living with serious mental illness. The hospital’s small psychiatric ward was unlocked, not even full, and Morrison saw no one living on the streets with untreated psychosis. The community clinics, where staff and clients share meals, she said, felt “incredibly warm and open and free. You can come anytime to talk to anyone, without an appointment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076574\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076574\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mignon Annette Poon shows off the small store area at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Morrison said she wept as her first visit came to an end.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know what to do with this,” she told her guide. “I run a business improvement district. No one is ever gonna believe me that you guys are so kind and compassionate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She was wrong. She cold-called Jonathan Sherin, the then-head of the Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health, and he went all in. In 2017, he and Morrison traveled back to Italy for \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYydKZzIGM\">a tour and a conference \u003c/a>focused on the importance of nurturing aspirations, relationships and personal fulfillment in those living with mental illness. Joining them was a small group of Los Angeles County leaders, mental health advocates, law enforcement representatives and a judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Everybody was gobsmacked,” Morrison said. “And that’s how it started.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The region served by Trieste’s mental health system is home to fewer than 300,000 people, compared to Los Angeles County’s population of nearly 10 million. Italy has socialized medicine. The U.S. does not. And here, with a crisis on the streets, so many public health officials stress that \u003ca href=\"https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00127-020-01849-1\">getting people inside \u003c/a>is paramount.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The small group of travelers knew they had to adapt their approach to those realities, and for a true community solution, they had to concentrate the effort. They settled on Hollywood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2022, the California Mental Health Oversight and Accountability Commission awarded the county a \u003ca href=\"https://file.lacounty.gov/SDSInter/bos/supdocs/6e2457e0-2310-4564-a15a-e1c249bbbee2.pdf\">grant of nearly $117 million \u003c/a>for a five-year pilot. The goal: to seed a new culture of recovery in the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A crossroads\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That summer, another “misunderstanding.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon was arrested for assaulting a drinking buddy, an elderly neighbor at an East Los Angeles apartment building where she’d finally found herself a place. She was facing felony charges and possible state prison time. From jail, she called Swan, who tapped her life savings to get her sister out on bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But once Mignon walked free, she refused contact with the family, Swan said, so she wrote the public defender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Drug testing, mental health treatment, anything but prison,” she pleaded in a letter, and she begged him to get her sister a diagnosis. “She [has] been needing one for about fifty years, if not sixty,” she said. “I told him!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, Poon was back on \u003ca href=\"https://homeless.lacounty.gov/skid-row-2/\">Skid Row\u003c/a>. She was feeling the weight of her age, so she made a choice to head to Hollywood, where neighborhood homeless outreach teams regularly “wake you up and ask you, ‘Why you not housed?’” she said. “Then you explain your situation, and they try to help you get into a shelter.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was her big break. Poon landed at a Hollywood women’s shelter where staff reached out to the Los Angeles County Mental Health Department on her behalf — just as they were layering key pieces of the Hollywood 2.0 pilot into place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s when I got my social worker, therapist and my psychiatrist,” said Poon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, as two of her Hollywood 2.0 clinicians put it, Poon’s inner spirit shines through. Dr. Jonathan Gomez, her first psychiatrist under the program, and Eleanor Bray, her current social worker, described her as charismatic, sweet, welcoming and warm, with a dose of sass and a sense of humor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when Gomez first visited Poon in August of 2023 at the shelter, she struck him as “one of the most symptomatically-distressed people I’ve seen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon believed the neighbor she’d assaulted was part of a conspiracy to electronically monitor her and had implanted a device in her foot, he said. She was so focused on this violation that she could hardly finish a sentence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was like, yeah, let’s look at your foot,” he said. “Let’s also talk about how much of this comes and goes with your sleep pattern and with the substance use.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon has a diagnosis now: schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type. Mania from bipolar disorder can cause psychosis. Poon’s diagnosis is schizoaffective because she sometimes experiences psychosis when she\u003cem> isn’t\u003c/em> manic. But what matters more than that diagnostic label is alleviating distress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076579\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076579\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_22-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Program director McKenzie Dowdle, left, helps Mignon Annette Poon prepare lunch for members and staff in the kitchen at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Hollywood 2.0 approach had him visiting her at the shelter once a week. It allowed them to work together to fine-tune her medication regimen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think they help me stay focused, stay positive, stay uplifted,” Poon said of the meds, “helping my thoughts to be clear.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, Poon was ready to move to transitional housing. But she was feeling paranoid about her shelter roommate, Gomez said, and told him she might head back to the streets. With his input, her care team got her into \u003ca href=\"https://homeless.lacounty.gov/news/help-at-a-hollywood-hotel/\">The Mark Twain Hotel\u003c/a>, which had just been repurposed as Hollywood 2.0 transitional housing with intensive onsite support — and single rooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was there, more than two and a half years ago, that Poon took her last sip of alcohol. Five months later, to her sister’s delight, a judge granted her mental health diversion. If she stayed on course, the felony charges against her would be dismissed. And in September 2024, Mignon’s team helped her move into her very own subsidized apartment.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>“Community will heal us all”\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Getting a client medicated, sober and permanently housed is often considered the pinnacle of success. But after years in survival mode, said Bray, Poon’s social worker, finding oneself alone without all the support of transitional housing programs “can be quite shocking.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Fountain House Hollywood clubhouse had opened its doors on Sunset Boulevard in July of 2024, joining more than 300 others \u003ca href=\"https://clubhouse-intl.org/\">worldwide\u003c/a> that hew to the same philosophy: empowering members to take ownership of their own recovery.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> When Poon moved into her own apartment two months later, Bray encouraged her to check it out, and said it’s been “monumental in her recovery.” There, she said, Poon is making friends, collaborating on a common purpose, learning to follow recipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her thoughts still return to memories of that conspiracy to electronically monitor her. In the lexicon of psychiatry, that’s known as a \u003ca href=\"https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/9599-delusional-disorder\">fixed delusion\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Poon, it’s truth. But she said her medication appears to be helping. Meanwhile, she is embracing the coping mechanisms that she and Bray have worked on together: distraction from the inner life with a focus on the here and now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Something like cooking is very grounding,” Bray said. “You’re very out of your head, you’re very in your body. Plus the aspect of community, I mean, I think community is really the thing that will heal us all.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Final pieces\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>So far, Hollywood 2.0 has moved more than 700 people off the streets, helping to slash the neighborhood’s homelessness by \u003ca href=\"https://www.rand.org/news/press/2025/07/number-of-unhoused-residents-drops-across-three-la.html\">nearly half\u003c/a> in 2024 alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076580\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076580\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Program director McKenzie Dowdle, left, chats with Mignon Annette Poon as they prepare lunch for members and staff in the kitchen at Fountain House Hollywood, also known as “the clubhouse” in Los Angeles, on March 9, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alisha Jucevic/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There’s job counseling, and a new welcoming clinic for clients well enough to get there on their own. Poon will soon join them. An urgent care drop-in and peer-respite center is scheduled to open later this year, so those in crisis can be stabilized without the trauma of hospitalization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this fall, at more than 170 members and counting, Fountain House Hollywood will move to a much larger space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A final step is now taking shape: persuading Hollywood businesses and residents \u003ca href=\"https://www.hollywood4wrd.org/hollywood-2-0/volunteer\">to take part\u003c/a>, by donating, hiring participants or committing to spend quality time with them by volunteering, leading classes and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s such a big, big change we’re looking to achieve,” said Morrison, “and that’s why I keep calling it a generational change. This is just the beginning of something.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A calm life\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081244\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 731px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SabrinaMignonOriginalPhoto.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081244\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SabrinaMignonOriginalPhoto.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"731\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SabrinaMignonOriginalPhoto.jpeg 731w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SabrinaMignonOriginalPhoto-160x280.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 731px) 100vw, 731px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sabrina Bradley and her birth mother, Mignon Poon, attended the clubhouse’s 2024 Thanksgiving celebration. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Sabrina Bradley)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Last month, Poon returned to criminal court for the last time, for dismissal of her charges. Her life is calm, she said, anchored by the clubhouse — and a budding relationship with her daughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Poon reached out to her daughter again once she was treated and sober.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She likes strawberry milkshakes, so I would take her to Mel’s Diner,” Bradley said of her mother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they’ve taken two road trips to Las Vegas and are discovering common passions: butterflies, the colors pink — “girly stuff,” Bradley said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Her bathroom and my bathroom are like the same, you know, beauty products all over the place, hair products all over the place.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We still bonding,” said Poon. “We still working on our relationship.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state grant for the Hollywood 2.0 pilot program runs out next year. And MediCal, which has helped fund the program, is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12051681/local-health-providers-prepare-for-medi-cal-cuts\">threatened by big federal cuts\u003c/a>. But Los Angeles County mental health leaders said they’ll find ways to keep the successful parts of the project going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Already, they have plans to open clubhouses in six more neighborhoods. Each, they said, could become a hub for community-based healing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This reporting was supported in part by California Humanities, the California Health Care Foundation and the California Endowment. It’s part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"http://novemberinmysoul.com\">\u003cem>November In My Soul\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a narrative podcast co-created by Lee Romney and former public defender Jenny Johnson that is slated for release in 2027\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>As a growing number of lawsuits allege AI chatbots are cultivating emotional dependency loops with humans, Alphabet’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> announced it will direct Gemini chatbot users to a support hotline if the conversation indicates a “potential crisis related to suicide or self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a\u003ca href=\"https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/technology/health/mental-health-updates/\"> blog post\u003c/a>, Google wrote that Gemini will introduce a redesigned “Help is available” feature, developed in collaboration with clinical experts. “Once the interface is activated, the option to reach out for professional help will remain clearly available throughout the remainder of the conversation,” the post stated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google wrote that it has trained Gemini “not to agree with or reinforce false beliefs, and instead gently distinguish subjective experience from objective fact.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Psychologically vulnerable people turning to chatbots to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674\">go down rabbit holes\u003c/a> could have been predicted, according to Jennifer King, a privacy and data policy fellow at the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence. “To some extent, you can anticipate some of the harms we see,” she told KQED. “We’ve seen people acting bad with technology across a variety of behaviors for a very long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the blog post does not mention lawsuits, the family of a 36-year-old man who died in Florida\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-03-04/google-gemini-accused-of-coaching-user-to-suicide-in-new-suit\"> sued Google\u003c/a> in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California last month, claiming that his use of Gemini devolved into a “\u003ca href=\"https://news.bloomberglaw.com/artificial-intelligence/google-gemini-accused-of-coaching-user-to-suicide-in-new-suit\">four-day descent into violent missions and coached suicide\u003c/a>.” At the time, Google said the chatbot repeatedly referred the man to a crisis hotline, but the company also promised to improve Gemini’s safeguards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/embed/DR-vBOsyQPE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">not the only AI developer\u003c/a> facing lawsuits over allegations that its chatbots encourage some users to form obsessive relationships with them, feed delusions and even contribute to plans for suicide or murder. Research also suggests users\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\"> form intense, quasi-romantic bonds\u003c/a> with chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The guardrails are obviously necessary, King said. “There have been many cases of users experiencing psychosis and other problems,” she added, noting the sycophancy or agreeability built into the chatbots’ design encourages unstable behavior, “as well as their propensity to get people to believe things that just aren’t true.”[aside postID=news_12069286 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/OpenAI.jpg']Guadalupe Hayes-Mota, director of the bioethics program at Santa Clara University, wants to see proof that AI chatbot developers are using clinically validated guidelines for interactions where mental health care is an issue. “Who’s actually making the decision when the crisis pops up for the individual, and how is that being done?” he asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s an awful lot of people who study these things,” King said. “But they’re often not consulted. They’re not part of the process.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the past year and a half, OpenAI and Anthropic have also adjusted their mental-health guardrails, amid growing public scrutiny and lawsuits. Experts say that in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">absence of federal regulation\u003c/a>, court rulings appear to be most effectively inspiring tech companies to take proactive measures like Google’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In March, a Los Angeles jury found Meta and YouTube negligent in a case centered around \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">social media addiction\u003c/a>, using arguments centered around product liability and negligence — sidestepping Section 230, a longstanding legal shield that protects platforms from liability for harmful content that users post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>As a growing number of lawsuits allege AI chatbots are cultivating emotional dependency loops with humans, Alphabet’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> announced it will direct Gemini chatbot users to a support hotline if the conversation indicates a “potential crisis related to suicide or self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a\u003ca href=\"https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/technology/health/mental-health-updates/\"> blog post\u003c/a>, Google wrote that Gemini will introduce a redesigned “Help is available” feature, developed in collaboration with clinical experts. “Once the interface is activated, the option to reach out for professional help will remain clearly available throughout the remainder of the conversation,” the post stated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google wrote that it has trained Gemini “not to agree with or reinforce false beliefs, and instead gently distinguish subjective experience from objective fact.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Psychologically vulnerable people turning to chatbots to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674\">go down rabbit holes\u003c/a> could have been predicted, according to Jennifer King, a privacy and data policy fellow at the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence. “To some extent, you can anticipate some of the harms we see,” she told KQED. “We’ve seen people acting bad with technology across a variety of behaviors for a very long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the blog post does not mention lawsuits, the family of a 36-year-old man who died in Florida\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-03-04/google-gemini-accused-of-coaching-user-to-suicide-in-new-suit\"> sued Google\u003c/a> in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California last month, claiming that his use of Gemini devolved into a “\u003ca href=\"https://news.bloomberglaw.com/artificial-intelligence/google-gemini-accused-of-coaching-user-to-suicide-in-new-suit\">four-day descent into violent missions and coached suicide\u003c/a>.” At the time, Google said the chatbot repeatedly referred the man to a crisis hotline, but the company also promised to improve Gemini’s safeguards.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/DR-vBOsyQPE'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/DR-vBOsyQPE'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Google is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">not the only AI developer\u003c/a> facing lawsuits over allegations that its chatbots encourage some users to form obsessive relationships with them, feed delusions and even contribute to plans for suicide or murder. Research also suggests users\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\"> form intense, quasi-romantic bonds\u003c/a> with chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The guardrails are obviously necessary, King said. “There have been many cases of users experiencing psychosis and other problems,” she added, noting the sycophancy or agreeability built into the chatbots’ design encourages unstable behavior, “as well as their propensity to get people to believe things that just aren’t true.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Guadalupe Hayes-Mota, director of the bioethics program at Santa Clara University, wants to see proof that AI chatbot developers are using clinically validated guidelines for interactions where mental health care is an issue. “Who’s actually making the decision when the crisis pops up for the individual, and how is that being done?” he asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s an awful lot of people who study these things,” King said. “But they’re often not consulted. They’re not part of the process.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the past year and a half, OpenAI and Anthropic have also adjusted their mental-health guardrails, amid growing public scrutiny and lawsuits. Experts say that in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">absence of federal regulation\u003c/a>, court rulings appear to be most effectively inspiring tech companies to take proactive measures like Google’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In March, a Los Angeles jury found Meta and YouTube negligent in a case centered around \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">social media addiction\u003c/a>, using arguments centered around product liability and negligence — sidestepping Section 230, a longstanding legal shield that protects platforms from liability for harmful content that users post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "foster-city-cyber-attack-rare-ruling-in-social-media-youth-mental-health-trial-and-can-sfs-small-clubs-survive",
"title": "Foster City Cyberattack, Jury Finds Meta and Google Negligent, and Can SF’s Small Clubs Survive?",
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"content": "\u003cp class=\"e-91036-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">In this edition of The Bay’s monthly news roundup, Ericka and Alan are joined by KQED senior editor Alexander Gonzalez to discuss a ransomware attack that hindered services in Foster City, a rare verdict in a case about Meta and Google’s role in fueling a youth mental health crisis, and whether San Francisco’s small clubs can survive. \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"e-91036-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul class=\"sc-EgOXT hqRROA\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-fragment=\"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\">\n\u003cli data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca class=\"e-91036-text-link e-91036-baseline e-91036-overflow-wrap-anywhere encore-internal-color-text-announcement e-91036-text-link--use-focus sc-ecPEgm gQmQyy\" href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/bay-area-email-cyberattack-22094070.php\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Bay Area city declares state of emergency 6 days after cyberattack\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\"> (SFGate)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca class=\"e-91036-text-link e-91036-baseline e-91036-overflow-wrap-anywhere encore-internal-color-text-announcement e-91036-text-link--use-focus sc-ecPEgm gQmQyy\" href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/foster-city-city-s-phone-email-services-22155892.php\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Foster City: City’s Phone, Email Services Restored After Cybersecurity Breach Last Week\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\"> (SFGate)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca class=\"e-91036-text-link e-91036-baseline e-91036-overflow-wrap-anywhere encore-internal-color-text-announcement e-91036-text-link--use-focus sc-ecPEgm gQmQyy\" href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/03/25/nx-s1-5746125/meta-youtube-social-media-trial-verdict\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Jury finds Meta and Google negligent in social media harms trial\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\"> (NPR)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca class=\"e-91036-text-link e-91036-baseline e-91036-overflow-wrap-anywhere encore-internal-color-text-announcement e-91036-text-link--use-focus sc-ecPEgm gQmQyy\" href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13987283\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Can San Francisco’s Small Clubs Survive?\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\"> (KQED)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5160486704&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"\" title=\"\">\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:03] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, and welcome to the Bay’s March News Roundup, where we sit down and talk about some of the other Bay Area stories that we have been following this month. I’m joined by Senior Editor, Alan Montecillo. What’s up, Alan?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:18] And our very special guest this month is KQED senior editor Alexander Gonzalez. What a delight to have you here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:00:25] Hey there, I’m so honored. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:28] Yeah, thank you for joining us. Very briefly, Alex, because I feel like maybe folks aren’t familiar with your voice. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do here at KQED?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:00:39] Yeah, I’m a features editor. So I’m working a lot behind the scenes on a good part of what you hear in the morning. So some of those longer interviews and stories that take up more time on the radio. That’s what I do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:53] You’re the producer behind Brian Watt, in other words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:00:57] Oh yeah, Brian Watt is my close friend, collaborator, confidant, working closely with him, so he’s the talent. I’m just trying to be there to support him, what he needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:08] So if you’re listening to 88.5, the number one news talk radio station, maybe your voice isn’t on the airwaves, but you’re there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:01:17] I’m in the room. In the mornings, yeah. I’m there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:19] Well, before we dive into the stories we’ve been following, it’s been a really, really hot month in the Bay Area. Spring is here. It feels like summer is here too. How have you all been dealing with the heat wave and also allergies?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:37] Oh my God. I feel like I’m so annoying in our morning meetings when it’s like, Oh, how are we all doing? And I’m like, Oh, my allergies are still bad, but they have been really bad. I feel two different ways about the heat. On the one hand, I feel grateful. The same day it was 75 degrees Fahrenheit and the Outer Sunset, our niece in Illinois had a snow day. So yeah, not a lot to complain about, but also as a lifelong Zyrtec taker, no free ads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:02:05] Zyrtec life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:02:05] Yeah. This is It’s been one of the worst allergy seasons I can remember in a very, very long time. I’m just sneezing and blowing my nose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:12] Yeah. And I don’t think you’re the only one either. I went to the doctor maybe like a few weeks ago and my doctor looked at my nose and was like, you’re like the only person who’s walked in here who has not had bad allergies this year. It’s really, really bad this year, have you been struggling at all Alex? You look, you look great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:02:30] I have no allergy issues whatsoever, the kinds that you’re describing, but you know, my partner does, and so we have the Allegra and Claritin all at home and stocked up. And as for me, the heat is like the best thing in the planet, like I grew up in Florida, So for me anytime it goes over 70 degrees, I’m like, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:52] Feels like home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:02:53] Yes it does, take off that jacket.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:56] Well, let’s go ahead and dive into some of the stories we’ve been following this month. I’m gonna go ahead and start with mine. So the city of Foster City in the peninsula voted last week to declare a state of emergency after it was hit by a ransomware attack. This attack took down the city’s network and staff couldn’t make or receive phone calls or respond to emails for a whole week. Basically paralyzing the city’s ability to conduct business and provide services. Phones and emails were finally restored on Friday, but the city was still working to get other functions back online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:03:38] So when we say ransomware attack and Foster City’s networks being down, what does that mean exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:45] So employees woke up in the early mornings of March 19th to find that there was a cybersecurity breach on their systems. And basically everything outside of their emergency response system was completely inoperable. There’s now an investigation into just how bad this breach is, but they really have very limited information. They did say that it’s possible that some public information may have been breached as part of this ransomware attack. And they did say that anyone who’s actually done business with the city of Foster City should change their personal passwords and take any measures to protect their personal data just out of abundance of caution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:04:33] So like, if I understand this correctly, everything just went to like a grinding halt. Like, I mean…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:38] I mean, the city said that if you contacted them while their phones and emails were down, that they basically wouldn’t be able to respond until they were back online. City Hall has remained open this whole time, but basically with limited services available. For example, the system that’s used to track like permitting in the city is totally frozen. I also saw on their Facebook page that things like Summer activity registration for the city’s Parks and Recs Department is delayed because of this system-wide outage, though the city has said that emergency services, 911 calls are completely unaffected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] You mentioned earlier that the city declared a state of emergency. What does that do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:25] The state of emergency allows Foster City to basically breeze past all the regular city procedures that it takes to buy stuff, especially the necessary equipment and supplies that they need to deal with this attack and to basically solve the issue. And it also opens the door for any sort of financial support from outside agencies as well. KQED actually was a victim of a very similar ransomware attack back in 2017.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:05:59] Were you here then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] I was, I was here very, very briefly, I think at the very, very start. So I didn’t really deal with the months and months of absolute chaos in the KQD newsroom. But I mean, folks were like using hotspots on their cell phones. It was a crazy time. They were MacGyvering all these ways to keep. The radio going and I think most folks probably didn’t even notice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:06:26] And I also read that as this foster city ransomware attack happened, there’s like a big cybersecurity conference in San Francisco at Moscone, like literally happening right around the same time. So you have basically a lot of expertise here in the city that maybe could have headed over there too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:52] And that is it for my story. We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, a rare verdict in a case against social media companies and their impact on mental health, and can San Francisco’s small clubs survive? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:16] And we’re back with The Bay’s monthly news roundup where we talk about some of the other stories we’ve been following this month. By the way, if you wanna help support shows like The Bay and the kind of work that we’re doing, make sure to go to kqed.org slash donate. And Alan Montecillo, our senior editor from The Bay, what story did you bring today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:07:39] Well, it’s a big accountability story for Silicon Valley. A California jury on Wednesday found Meta and Google liable for the depression and anxiety of a 20-year-old woman who says she used these social media apps, specifically YouTube and Instagram, as a small child. They awarded her $6 million. On top of that, this actually comes on the heels of a different trial in New Mexico where Meta was ordered to pay $375 million for not protecting young users from child predators. So… One of the reasons this is significant is I think this is a rare moment of, you know, potential accountability for these companies. And some are wondering whether this could be sort of a so-called big tobacco moment for big tech.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:22] Yeah, Alan, I mean, what was this trial like? What did the people representing this young woman say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] The main plaintiff in this California trial was a woman who went by the name of Kaylee. She’s now, like I said, 20 years old. She says she started using Instagram when she was 11, which by the way is against meta terms of service. You’re supposed to be 13 or older to use Instagram. She says, she suffered depression, anxiety, body image issues, and specifically that there were features with these apps like infinite scroll and video autoplay that played a in causing her to become addicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] To these platforms. Partly what’s interesting about this case, right, is like how they went about this legally, like what arguments they made, because I think you, for a long time, there was some law that prevented going after the product specifically, but here they tried to go about this in a different way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:09:14] Way, right? Yes, you’re right. The strategy is really one of the reasons why some folks are saying this could be a turning point. So you can’t really hold companies legally liable for the content that people post on their platforms. It’s a federal law known as Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. So instead, the plaintiff here and potentially others as well are saying, you all, social media companies are essentially manufacturers of a defective product that is addictive. And harms people, especially young people. And furthermore, that you knew that. They showed internal documents from Meta in which Mark Zuckerberg and other executives talked about how they were trying to attract young people, one document said, quote, if we want to win big with teens, we must bring them in as tweens. Another memo internally showed that 11 year olds were much more likely to keep coming back to Instagram compared with other apps, even though you’re supposed to be 13. So, I think… It’s more about the public health angle and stating a case that these products themselves are designed to be addictive. That’s why the analogies to big tobacco are being drawn here. This is what one of the lawyers in the California trial, Marc Lanier, said after the verdict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Lanier \u003c/strong>[00:10:27] We’ve sent a message with this, that you will be held accountable just because of the features alone that drive addiction. That’s a huge message for these companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:38] I mean, I can think of so many people in my personal life who say, like, I need to take a break from Instagram. It is not good for my mental health. I mean I’ve taken a break from Instagram myself before. But what is the argument on the other side that the tech companies were making in this trial?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:10:57] Well, Meta and Google plan to appeal this decision in California. They say they’ve put in plenty of protections in their products for young people. Metta, and Google also say that there are all kinds of reasons why young people, including the plaintiff, have mental health challenges and that it’s unfair to basically single out social media companies like them as the main cause of it. And Ashly Davis, a spokesperson for Meta. Essentially said as much after the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ashly Davis \u003c/strong>[00:11:29] Teen mental health is profoundly complex and cannot be linked to a single app. We will continue to defend ourselves vigorously as every case is different and we remain confident in our record of protecting teens online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:11:44] There’s also a Google spokesperson, Jose Castañeda, who said, quote, this case misunderstands YouTube. Remember, this is YouTube and Instagram, who are kind of on the hook here, which is a responsibly built streaming platform, not a social media site. So look, I mean, these companies have a lot of money. They have a lotta lawyers. This is an ultimate defeat for them by any means, but it is significant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:12:04] So Alan, one of the interesting details about this trial was this jar of M&M’s. Can you talk more about that? Cause it’s kind of, it’s fascinating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:12:13] Yeah, Marc Lanier, the lawyer I mentioned earlier, showed the jury a jar full of M&M’s and said that each piece of candy represented a billion dollars that Metta was worth, which kind of brings us to the six million dollar figure that the companies now owe. You could take it a couple different ways. One is like, look, Mark Zuckerberg made more than six million dollars by like the end of this sentence, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:37] Drop in the bucket.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:12:38] Drop in the bucket. An M&M. Right. An M& M in the Bucket. Yeah. It’s not a lot of money, but when you think about all the people who use social media and the fact that this is $6 million in damages for one plaintiff, you add that up, it could be a slightly larger drop in the buckets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:12:54] I think this could be a bellwether case, right? This could set some precedent, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:12:58] Well, I think it literally is a Bellwether case. It’s tied to about 2,000 other pending lawsuits that are brought by parents and school districts. And in fact, this summer there will be a federal trial in the Northern District of California with a series of claims made by parents and school district. So lots of people were watching this. I mean, there were parents outside the courthouse whose kids had taken their own lives and they, you know, in part blame social media. Many people had to testify in this trial, including Mark Zuckerberg himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:13:27] No, there have been reports of young people themselves saying they’re like trying to go phone-less, right, and like getting rid of it. There’s that song by Lorde where she throws the cell phone in the water. And I feel like there’s this sense of in the air that young people themselves recognize that tech companies are maybe doing things that, you know, not responsibly done, or you’re not totally aware of, like, your relationship to this tech could be something that I need to change myself. There’s more ownership of our relationship to technology than maybe when we were kind of first starting to use Facebook, where we were just like, wow, this is so cool, a website where we can connect with people. And it feels like we’re light years ahead of where… That place is right now for all kinds of reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:14:10] I mean, you even see there’s some phone-free school districts, you know, and the results from that can be hit or miss, but what are the other vectors of this feeling that maybe this isn’t great for us?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:23] Such an interesting story, Alan, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:14:26] You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:29] And last but not least, Alex Gonzalez, editor at KQED, very curious what story you’ve brought for us today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:14:37] Yeah, so this comes from our colleague, Nastia Voynovskaya, and her question for this story is, can San Francisco small clubs survive?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:14:48] Yeah, I mean, how are San Francisco Small Gloves doing? I feel like I thought about this a lot in the immediate post-pandemic economic recovery phase, I guess, when places were fully opened and we were wondering, oh, are we all going to things?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:15:04] Yeah, you’re totally right. So I think that’s kind of part of what’s happening here. So this was kind of came about from an industry summit during San Francisco’s music week. So it’s kind an insidery thing, but one of the main points that Nastia brings up in this story is, you know, kind of the concern for the health of the local music ecosystem. And specifically these places categorized as like independent music venues. So these are your lay. You know, in San Francisco, Thee Parkside, Bottom of the Hill. But these also happen to be two venues that are gonna be closing this year. And it’s part of this larger trend that was reported on by this trade association recently that said just around a third of these kind of independent music venues are actually profitable. Even though that same report said that they generated billions of dollars for the nation’s economy, then this tension is really What I found interesting and what, Alan, you just brought up about kind of where we are. Six years now this month from the COVID-19 lockdowns, right? Can you believe it? Six years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:16:11] I was just going to say this actually reminds me of a story that we worked on on the Bay about small local theaters around the Bay Area very similarly struggling with getting people to come back to their theaters post pandemic and closing as a result because of that sort of behavior shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:16:31] That behavior change has been difficult for a lot of folks to sort of get away from, right? We’re just, the competition is the couch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:16:38] Powerful competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:16:39] It’s powerful competition, right? Because you think, what’s going to motivate me to drive to a place, to pay for an expensive ticket, to then you maybe want to partake in a drink. Those drinks are expensive, right. So then that’s kind of what makes this really interesting is that you have all of these structural things, but at the same time, this component of human behavior all coming together when you think about a small independent music venue. It’s like really interesting how we. How there’s an ecosystem around it. If we have fewer of these places that are allowing up and coming acts to give them a chance to do, to showcase their art and also to make money off of what they’re doing, right? To sort of see a career around this, we’re losing that like platform for interesting talent, for new talent to sort of then maybe make it big, right, or find an audience even, right. And let’s not even talk about becoming the next, you know, pop star here. It’s just like. Making it as an artist too, that’s also kind of at play here, just in the way that actors and producers and playwrights want to make it work in a local theater, because if not, then we’re just going to have Marvel the musical. Right. That probably exists. There is a Spider-Man the musical actually. Yeah, that exists. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:17:54] That’s crazy, I did not know that. Yeah, very similarly to this local theater story. It’s like you’re losing this whole part of the pipeline for local artists to make it big.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:18:08] So what’s the move here? I mean, there’s these sort of structural, very high semi-fixed costs that all of these businesses are facing, and then there’s also the consumer behavior side of it. What do we do about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:18:19] So this is kind of the interesting thing that our colleague Nastia brings up in this story and that she reported on in that some of the panelists at this industry summit were suggesting like kind of recreating a version of the recovery fund that we saw during the COVID lockdowns for artists. So one of the panelist like pitched the idea of like putting a dollar for every ticket sold at a corporate backed concert into like this recovery fund. And then dividing that up among smaller venues, which is kind of interesting, right, that a dollar even can potentially go a really long way. There are things too that artists themselves can do. They can maybe try to push back, you know, push back their agents telling, you know who maybe wanna push them to more profitable venues or places where they’re gonna sell out more tickets and actually say, hey, we actually wanna perform at a bottom of the hill kind of a place, right? And then finally, we the fans, right. We just have to leave the couch, which is… Very challenging i know, but if you do go out there and support these places then that can that can also be an avenue too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:19:23] I mean, it is kind of a relief to know that I have some agency in helping to solve this problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:19:31] Yeah, I mean, you know, the Bay Area has long always been hard for artists, right? But it is such an artistic place historically. And it was a place that called creatives, you know, when we think about the summer of love in the 60s, right. I mean that what a creative what an explosion of creativity at that time. And that legacy so much a part of like what has drawn people to this place. And so then you think about like right now seeing the factors that can prevent that kind of. Wonderful growth of creativity kind of makes you think where is this place going, right? And that’s and the arts are so much a part of like the economy of a place and and what makes a place thrive.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca class=\"e-91036-text-link e-91036-baseline e-91036-overflow-wrap-anywhere encore-internal-color-text-announcement e-91036-text-link--use-focus sc-ecPEgm gQmQyy\" href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/bay-area-email-cyberattack-22094070.php\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Bay Area city declares state of emergency 6 days after cyberattack\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\"> (SFGate)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca class=\"e-91036-text-link e-91036-baseline e-91036-overflow-wrap-anywhere encore-internal-color-text-announcement e-91036-text-link--use-focus sc-ecPEgm gQmQyy\" href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/foster-city-city-s-phone-email-services-22155892.php\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Foster City: City’s Phone, Email Services Restored After Cybersecurity Breach Last Week\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\"> (SFGate)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca class=\"e-91036-text-link e-91036-baseline e-91036-overflow-wrap-anywhere encore-internal-color-text-announcement e-91036-text-link--use-focus sc-ecPEgm gQmQyy\" href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/03/25/nx-s1-5746125/meta-youtube-social-media-trial-verdict\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Jury finds Meta and Google negligent in social media harms trial\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\"> (NPR)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca class=\"e-91036-text-link e-91036-baseline e-91036-overflow-wrap-anywhere encore-internal-color-text-announcement e-91036-text-link--use-focus sc-ecPEgm gQmQyy\" href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13987283\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Can San Francisco’s Small Clubs Survive?\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-eZYNyq jkbEfl\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\"> (KQED)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5160486704&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"\" title=\"\">\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:03] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, and welcome to the Bay’s March News Roundup, where we sit down and talk about some of the other Bay Area stories that we have been following this month. I’m joined by Senior Editor, Alan Montecillo. What’s up, Alan?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:18] And our very special guest this month is KQED senior editor Alexander Gonzalez. What a delight to have you here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:00:25] Hey there, I’m so honored. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:28] Yeah, thank you for joining us. Very briefly, Alex, because I feel like maybe folks aren’t familiar with your voice. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do here at KQED?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:00:39] Yeah, I’m a features editor. So I’m working a lot behind the scenes on a good part of what you hear in the morning. So some of those longer interviews and stories that take up more time on the radio. That’s what I do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:53] You’re the producer behind Brian Watt, in other words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:00:57] Oh yeah, Brian Watt is my close friend, collaborator, confidant, working closely with him, so he’s the talent. I’m just trying to be there to support him, what he needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:08] So if you’re listening to 88.5, the number one news talk radio station, maybe your voice isn’t on the airwaves, but you’re there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:01:17] I’m in the room. In the mornings, yeah. I’m there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:19] Well, before we dive into the stories we’ve been following, it’s been a really, really hot month in the Bay Area. Spring is here. It feels like summer is here too. How have you all been dealing with the heat wave and also allergies?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:37] Oh my God. I feel like I’m so annoying in our morning meetings when it’s like, Oh, how are we all doing? And I’m like, Oh, my allergies are still bad, but they have been really bad. I feel two different ways about the heat. On the one hand, I feel grateful. The same day it was 75 degrees Fahrenheit and the Outer Sunset, our niece in Illinois had a snow day. So yeah, not a lot to complain about, but also as a lifelong Zyrtec taker, no free ads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:02:05] Zyrtec life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:02:05] Yeah. This is It’s been one of the worst allergy seasons I can remember in a very, very long time. I’m just sneezing and blowing my nose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:12] Yeah. And I don’t think you’re the only one either. I went to the doctor maybe like a few weeks ago and my doctor looked at my nose and was like, you’re like the only person who’s walked in here who has not had bad allergies this year. It’s really, really bad this year, have you been struggling at all Alex? You look, you look great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:02:30] I have no allergy issues whatsoever, the kinds that you’re describing, but you know, my partner does, and so we have the Allegra and Claritin all at home and stocked up. And as for me, the heat is like the best thing in the planet, like I grew up in Florida, So for me anytime it goes over 70 degrees, I’m like, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:52] Feels like home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:02:53] Yes it does, take off that jacket.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:56] Well, let’s go ahead and dive into some of the stories we’ve been following this month. I’m gonna go ahead and start with mine. So the city of Foster City in the peninsula voted last week to declare a state of emergency after it was hit by a ransomware attack. This attack took down the city’s network and staff couldn’t make or receive phone calls or respond to emails for a whole week. Basically paralyzing the city’s ability to conduct business and provide services. Phones and emails were finally restored on Friday, but the city was still working to get other functions back online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:03:38] So when we say ransomware attack and Foster City’s networks being down, what does that mean exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:45] So employees woke up in the early mornings of March 19th to find that there was a cybersecurity breach on their systems. And basically everything outside of their emergency response system was completely inoperable. There’s now an investigation into just how bad this breach is, but they really have very limited information. They did say that it’s possible that some public information may have been breached as part of this ransomware attack. And they did say that anyone who’s actually done business with the city of Foster City should change their personal passwords and take any measures to protect their personal data just out of abundance of caution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:04:33] So like, if I understand this correctly, everything just went to like a grinding halt. Like, I mean…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:38] I mean, the city said that if you contacted them while their phones and emails were down, that they basically wouldn’t be able to respond until they were back online. City Hall has remained open this whole time, but basically with limited services available. For example, the system that’s used to track like permitting in the city is totally frozen. I also saw on their Facebook page that things like Summer activity registration for the city’s Parks and Recs Department is delayed because of this system-wide outage, though the city has said that emergency services, 911 calls are completely unaffected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] You mentioned earlier that the city declared a state of emergency. What does that do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:25] The state of emergency allows Foster City to basically breeze past all the regular city procedures that it takes to buy stuff, especially the necessary equipment and supplies that they need to deal with this attack and to basically solve the issue. And it also opens the door for any sort of financial support from outside agencies as well. KQED actually was a victim of a very similar ransomware attack back in 2017.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:05:59] Were you here then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] I was, I was here very, very briefly, I think at the very, very start. So I didn’t really deal with the months and months of absolute chaos in the KQD newsroom. But I mean, folks were like using hotspots on their cell phones. It was a crazy time. They were MacGyvering all these ways to keep. The radio going and I think most folks probably didn’t even notice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:06:26] And I also read that as this foster city ransomware attack happened, there’s like a big cybersecurity conference in San Francisco at Moscone, like literally happening right around the same time. So you have basically a lot of expertise here in the city that maybe could have headed over there too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:52] And that is it for my story. We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, a rare verdict in a case against social media companies and their impact on mental health, and can San Francisco’s small clubs survive? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:16] And we’re back with The Bay’s monthly news roundup where we talk about some of the other stories we’ve been following this month. By the way, if you wanna help support shows like The Bay and the kind of work that we’re doing, make sure to go to kqed.org slash donate. And Alan Montecillo, our senior editor from The Bay, what story did you bring today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:07:39] Well, it’s a big accountability story for Silicon Valley. A California jury on Wednesday found Meta and Google liable for the depression and anxiety of a 20-year-old woman who says she used these social media apps, specifically YouTube and Instagram, as a small child. They awarded her $6 million. On top of that, this actually comes on the heels of a different trial in New Mexico where Meta was ordered to pay $375 million for not protecting young users from child predators. So… One of the reasons this is significant is I think this is a rare moment of, you know, potential accountability for these companies. And some are wondering whether this could be sort of a so-called big tobacco moment for big tech.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:22] Yeah, Alan, I mean, what was this trial like? What did the people representing this young woman say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] The main plaintiff in this California trial was a woman who went by the name of Kaylee. She’s now, like I said, 20 years old. She says she started using Instagram when she was 11, which by the way is against meta terms of service. You’re supposed to be 13 or older to use Instagram. She says, she suffered depression, anxiety, body image issues, and specifically that there were features with these apps like infinite scroll and video autoplay that played a in causing her to become addicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] To these platforms. Partly what’s interesting about this case, right, is like how they went about this legally, like what arguments they made, because I think you, for a long time, there was some law that prevented going after the product specifically, but here they tried to go about this in a different way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:09:14] Way, right? Yes, you’re right. The strategy is really one of the reasons why some folks are saying this could be a turning point. So you can’t really hold companies legally liable for the content that people post on their platforms. It’s a federal law known as Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. So instead, the plaintiff here and potentially others as well are saying, you all, social media companies are essentially manufacturers of a defective product that is addictive. And harms people, especially young people. And furthermore, that you knew that. They showed internal documents from Meta in which Mark Zuckerberg and other executives talked about how they were trying to attract young people, one document said, quote, if we want to win big with teens, we must bring them in as tweens. Another memo internally showed that 11 year olds were much more likely to keep coming back to Instagram compared with other apps, even though you’re supposed to be 13. So, I think… It’s more about the public health angle and stating a case that these products themselves are designed to be addictive. That’s why the analogies to big tobacco are being drawn here. This is what one of the lawyers in the California trial, Marc Lanier, said after the verdict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Lanier \u003c/strong>[00:10:27] We’ve sent a message with this, that you will be held accountable just because of the features alone that drive addiction. That’s a huge message for these companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:38] I mean, I can think of so many people in my personal life who say, like, I need to take a break from Instagram. It is not good for my mental health. I mean I’ve taken a break from Instagram myself before. But what is the argument on the other side that the tech companies were making in this trial?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:10:57] Well, Meta and Google plan to appeal this decision in California. They say they’ve put in plenty of protections in their products for young people. Metta, and Google also say that there are all kinds of reasons why young people, including the plaintiff, have mental health challenges and that it’s unfair to basically single out social media companies like them as the main cause of it. And Ashly Davis, a spokesperson for Meta. Essentially said as much after the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ashly Davis \u003c/strong>[00:11:29] Teen mental health is profoundly complex and cannot be linked to a single app. We will continue to defend ourselves vigorously as every case is different and we remain confident in our record of protecting teens online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:11:44] There’s also a Google spokesperson, Jose Castañeda, who said, quote, this case misunderstands YouTube. Remember, this is YouTube and Instagram, who are kind of on the hook here, which is a responsibly built streaming platform, not a social media site. So look, I mean, these companies have a lot of money. They have a lotta lawyers. This is an ultimate defeat for them by any means, but it is significant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:12:04] So Alan, one of the interesting details about this trial was this jar of M&M’s. Can you talk more about that? Cause it’s kind of, it’s fascinating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:12:13] Yeah, Marc Lanier, the lawyer I mentioned earlier, showed the jury a jar full of M&M’s and said that each piece of candy represented a billion dollars that Metta was worth, which kind of brings us to the six million dollar figure that the companies now owe. You could take it a couple different ways. One is like, look, Mark Zuckerberg made more than six million dollars by like the end of this sentence, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:37] Drop in the bucket.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:12:38] Drop in the bucket. An M&M. Right. An M& M in the Bucket. Yeah. It’s not a lot of money, but when you think about all the people who use social media and the fact that this is $6 million in damages for one plaintiff, you add that up, it could be a slightly larger drop in the buckets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:12:54] I think this could be a bellwether case, right? This could set some precedent, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:12:58] Well, I think it literally is a Bellwether case. It’s tied to about 2,000 other pending lawsuits that are brought by parents and school districts. And in fact, this summer there will be a federal trial in the Northern District of California with a series of claims made by parents and school district. So lots of people were watching this. I mean, there were parents outside the courthouse whose kids had taken their own lives and they, you know, in part blame social media. Many people had to testify in this trial, including Mark Zuckerberg himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:13:27] No, there have been reports of young people themselves saying they’re like trying to go phone-less, right, and like getting rid of it. There’s that song by Lorde where she throws the cell phone in the water. And I feel like there’s this sense of in the air that young people themselves recognize that tech companies are maybe doing things that, you know, not responsibly done, or you’re not totally aware of, like, your relationship to this tech could be something that I need to change myself. There’s more ownership of our relationship to technology than maybe when we were kind of first starting to use Facebook, where we were just like, wow, this is so cool, a website where we can connect with people. And it feels like we’re light years ahead of where… That place is right now for all kinds of reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:14:10] I mean, you even see there’s some phone-free school districts, you know, and the results from that can be hit or miss, but what are the other vectors of this feeling that maybe this isn’t great for us?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:23] Such an interesting story, Alan, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:14:26] You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:29] And last but not least, Alex Gonzalez, editor at KQED, very curious what story you’ve brought for us today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:14:37] Yeah, so this comes from our colleague, Nastia Voynovskaya, and her question for this story is, can San Francisco small clubs survive?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:14:48] Yeah, I mean, how are San Francisco Small Gloves doing? I feel like I thought about this a lot in the immediate post-pandemic economic recovery phase, I guess, when places were fully opened and we were wondering, oh, are we all going to things?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:15:04] Yeah, you’re totally right. So I think that’s kind of part of what’s happening here. So this was kind of came about from an industry summit during San Francisco’s music week. So it’s kind an insidery thing, but one of the main points that Nastia brings up in this story is, you know, kind of the concern for the health of the local music ecosystem. And specifically these places categorized as like independent music venues. So these are your lay. You know, in San Francisco, Thee Parkside, Bottom of the Hill. But these also happen to be two venues that are gonna be closing this year. And it’s part of this larger trend that was reported on by this trade association recently that said just around a third of these kind of independent music venues are actually profitable. Even though that same report said that they generated billions of dollars for the nation’s economy, then this tension is really What I found interesting and what, Alan, you just brought up about kind of where we are. Six years now this month from the COVID-19 lockdowns, right? Can you believe it? Six years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:16:11] I was just going to say this actually reminds me of a story that we worked on on the Bay about small local theaters around the Bay Area very similarly struggling with getting people to come back to their theaters post pandemic and closing as a result because of that sort of behavior shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:16:31] That behavior change has been difficult for a lot of folks to sort of get away from, right? We’re just, the competition is the couch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:16:38] Powerful competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:16:39] It’s powerful competition, right? Because you think, what’s going to motivate me to drive to a place, to pay for an expensive ticket, to then you maybe want to partake in a drink. Those drinks are expensive, right. So then that’s kind of what makes this really interesting is that you have all of these structural things, but at the same time, this component of human behavior all coming together when you think about a small independent music venue. It’s like really interesting how we. How there’s an ecosystem around it. If we have fewer of these places that are allowing up and coming acts to give them a chance to do, to showcase their art and also to make money off of what they’re doing, right? To sort of see a career around this, we’re losing that like platform for interesting talent, for new talent to sort of then maybe make it big, right, or find an audience even, right. And let’s not even talk about becoming the next, you know, pop star here. It’s just like. Making it as an artist too, that’s also kind of at play here, just in the way that actors and producers and playwrights want to make it work in a local theater, because if not, then we’re just going to have Marvel the musical. Right. That probably exists. There is a Spider-Man the musical actually. Yeah, that exists. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:17:54] That’s crazy, I did not know that. Yeah, very similarly to this local theater story. It’s like you’re losing this whole part of the pipeline for local artists to make it big.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:18:08] So what’s the move here? I mean, there’s these sort of structural, very high semi-fixed costs that all of these businesses are facing, and then there’s also the consumer behavior side of it. What do we do about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:18:19] So this is kind of the interesting thing that our colleague Nastia brings up in this story and that she reported on in that some of the panelists at this industry summit were suggesting like kind of recreating a version of the recovery fund that we saw during the COVID lockdowns for artists. So one of the panelist like pitched the idea of like putting a dollar for every ticket sold at a corporate backed concert into like this recovery fund. And then dividing that up among smaller venues, which is kind of interesting, right, that a dollar even can potentially go a really long way. There are things too that artists themselves can do. They can maybe try to push back, you know, push back their agents telling, you know who maybe wanna push them to more profitable venues or places where they’re gonna sell out more tickets and actually say, hey, we actually wanna perform at a bottom of the hill kind of a place, right? And then finally, we the fans, right. We just have to leave the couch, which is… Very challenging i know, but if you do go out there and support these places then that can that can also be an avenue too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:19:23] I mean, it is kind of a relief to know that I have some agency in helping to solve this problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Gonzalez \u003c/strong>[00:19:31] Yeah, I mean, you know, the Bay Area has long always been hard for artists, right? But it is such an artistic place historically. And it was a place that called creatives, you know, when we think about the summer of love in the 60s, right. I mean that what a creative what an explosion of creativity at that time. And that legacy so much a part of like what has drawn people to this place. And so then you think about like right now seeing the factors that can prevent that kind of. Wonderful growth of creativity kind of makes you think where is this place going, right? And that’s and the arts are so much a part of like the economy of a place and and what makes a place thrive.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Thursday, March 12, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2024, California voters approved Proposition 1. That ballot measure set aside billions of dollars to add more mental health and addiction treatment beds across the state. But \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/housing/homelessness/2026/03/prop-1-update/\">new reporting from our California newsroom partner, CalMatters\u003c/a>, has found the initiative hasn’t delivered a fraction of the support it promised.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just gas prices rising. The attacks on Iran are also causing fertilizer prices to surge by about 30%, just as the spring planting season gets underway in California. But some farmers here have been adopting techniques that aren’t just resilient to climate change, but also to the supply chain disruption of war.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Governor Gavin Newsom says his office is \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/iran-california-drones-newsom-trump-82afa326f0b362e0ae96b97e1e6c3d7e\">aware of reports\u003c/a> that Iran considered launching drones to attack unspecified targets in the state.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"entry-title \">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/housing/homelessness/2026/03/prop-1-update/\">\u003cstrong>10 projects from Newsom’s mental health bond were supposed to open in 2025. That didn’t happen\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>None of the projects expected in 2025 under Gov. Gavin Newsom’s mental health ballot measure have opened, CalMatters has found, even though the governor says the bond is exceeding its goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom promised that thousands of mental health treatment beds would come out of Proposition 1, a $6.4 billion bond California voters \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/elections/2024/03/election-result-proposition-1/\">passed\u003c/a> by a narrow margin in 2024. But projects in the initial round have hit delays, in some cases pushing back opening dates by two years, or been cancelled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/mental-health/2025/06/prop-1-mental-health-awards/\">awarded nearly half\u003c/a> of the money from the bond last spring, kicking off what Newsom described as the fastest distribution of bond funds in California history. When it rolled out that money, the state said it expected 10 of those first 124 projects would be finished by the end of last year. That didn’t happen. CalMatters has confirmed that nine of those projects were delayed, with new completion dates ranging from this summer to summer 2028. One project was cancelled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bond is a cornerstone of Newsom’s broader plan to help Californians living on the street with mental illness, and it’s supposed to provide some of the resources necessary for the governor’s \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/mental-health/2024/02/california-mental-health-history/\">other mental health programs\u003c/a> to succeed. Without the new in-patient beds, out-patient treatment slots and housing promised under Prop. 1, programs \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/housing/homelessness/2025/12/care-court-homeless/\">such as CARE Court\u003c/a>, which uses the courts to get more people into treatment, won’t be as effective. The delays in getting Prop. 1 projects built highlight the difficulty of quickly scaling up treatment options to meet the demand for mental health care in California, as well as the challenges of building anything in the state’s expensive and highly competitive real estate market. They also mean some of the state’s most vulnerable residents will have to wait longer for help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The administration tried to fast-track Prop. 1 projects by smoothing some permitting and other hurdles, Newsom said during a news conference Wednesday. But he admitted there have been snags. “Some of that has been impacted by, candidly, tariffs, supply chain issues,” he said. “So there’s been some slippage in some of the projects. We’re deeply mindful and aware of that, but we’re just managing that on a daily basis.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom this week \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/03/11/ahead-of-schedule-governor-newsoms-prop-1-is-exceeding-goals-to-expand-capacity-and-treatment-statewide-helping-5m-californians/\">awarded the remaining $1.18 billion\u003c/a> from Prop. 1 for new treatment beds and outpatient slots. In all, the bond has funded 177 projects, which are supposed to create 6,919 residential treatment beds (119 more than originally promised) and 27,561 outpatient treatment slots (861 more than promised). But those projects, though they have now been funded, have yet to come to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>California farmers try to minimize effects of war as spring planting season begins \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The war with Iran is \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/war-with-iran-delivers-high-oil-prices-and-another-shock-to-the-global-economy\">doing collateral damage to the world economy.\u003c/a> The conflict is driving up energy and fertilizer prices and threatening food shortages in poor countries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roughly a third of nitrogen fertilizer traded globally flows through the Strait of Hormuz. That waterway has been effectively closed since the U.S. and Israel began attacking Iran almost two weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monterey County Resource Conservation District soil scientist Laura Murphy said farmers who use regenerative techniques may not feel the supply disruption as much. “You can ease out the shocks to this bigger global system if you reduce the complexity of the supply chains by reinvesting in your local soil and nutrient cycling system,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Murphy said practices like composting and cover cropping add nutrients to the soil, so it needs less fertilizer. While now staving off some of the economic effects of war, these practices are normally used to mitigate and adapt to climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"Page-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/iran-california-drones-newsom-trump-82afa326f0b362e0ae96b97e1e6c3d7e\">California governor says no imminent threat despite warning about possible Iran drone attack\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California Gov. Gavin Newsom said there was no imminent threat to the state, despite a warning from the FBI that Iran could send drones to the West Coast in retaliation for \u003cspan class=\"LinkEnhancement\">\u003ca class=\"Link AnClick-LinkEnhancement\" href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/iran\" data-gtm-enhancement-style=\"LinkEnhancementA\">war\u003c/a>\u003c/span>. Newsom said drone issues “have always been top of mind.” “We’ve been aware of that information. … It’s all about a posture of preparedness for worst-case scenarios,” \u003cspan class=\"LinkEnhancement\">\u003ca class=\"Link AnClick-LinkEnhancement\" href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/gavin-newsom\" data-gtm-enhancement-style=\"LinkEnhancementA\">the governor\u003c/a>\u003c/span> said Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The FBI recently warned police departments that Iran could try to strike the state. “Iran allegedly aspired to conduct a surprise attack using unmanned aerial vehicles from an unidentified vessel off the coast of the United State Homeland, specifically against unspecified targets in California, in the event that the US conducted strikes against Iran,” the alert said, \u003ca href=\"https://abcnews.com/US/fbi-warns-iran-aspired-attack-california-drones-retaliation/story?id=130973820\">according to ABC News.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have no additional information on the timing, method, target, or perpetrators of this alleged attack,” the FBI said. Police in Los Angeles and San Francisco said they were monitoring world events for any risks to their cities. Both said they’re working closely with state and federal authorities.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Thursday, March 12, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2024, California voters approved Proposition 1. That ballot measure set aside billions of dollars to add more mental health and addiction treatment beds across the state. But \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/housing/homelessness/2026/03/prop-1-update/\">new reporting from our California newsroom partner, CalMatters\u003c/a>, has found the initiative hasn’t delivered a fraction of the support it promised.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just gas prices rising. The attacks on Iran are also causing fertilizer prices to surge by about 30%, just as the spring planting season gets underway in California. But some farmers here have been adopting techniques that aren’t just resilient to climate change, but also to the supply chain disruption of war.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Governor Gavin Newsom says his office is \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/iran-california-drones-newsom-trump-82afa326f0b362e0ae96b97e1e6c3d7e\">aware of reports\u003c/a> that Iran considered launching drones to attack unspecified targets in the state.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"entry-title \">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/housing/homelessness/2026/03/prop-1-update/\">\u003cstrong>10 projects from Newsom’s mental health bond were supposed to open in 2025. That didn’t happen\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>None of the projects expected in 2025 under Gov. Gavin Newsom’s mental health ballot measure have opened, CalMatters has found, even though the governor says the bond is exceeding its goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom promised that thousands of mental health treatment beds would come out of Proposition 1, a $6.4 billion bond California voters \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/elections/2024/03/election-result-proposition-1/\">passed\u003c/a> by a narrow margin in 2024. But projects in the initial round have hit delays, in some cases pushing back opening dates by two years, or been cancelled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/mental-health/2025/06/prop-1-mental-health-awards/\">awarded nearly half\u003c/a> of the money from the bond last spring, kicking off what Newsom described as the fastest distribution of bond funds in California history. When it rolled out that money, the state said it expected 10 of those first 124 projects would be finished by the end of last year. That didn’t happen. CalMatters has confirmed that nine of those projects were delayed, with new completion dates ranging from this summer to summer 2028. One project was cancelled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bond is a cornerstone of Newsom’s broader plan to help Californians living on the street with mental illness, and it’s supposed to provide some of the resources necessary for the governor’s \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/mental-health/2024/02/california-mental-health-history/\">other mental health programs\u003c/a> to succeed. Without the new in-patient beds, out-patient treatment slots and housing promised under Prop. 1, programs \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/housing/homelessness/2025/12/care-court-homeless/\">such as CARE Court\u003c/a>, which uses the courts to get more people into treatment, won’t be as effective. The delays in getting Prop. 1 projects built highlight the difficulty of quickly scaling up treatment options to meet the demand for mental health care in California, as well as the challenges of building anything in the state’s expensive and highly competitive real estate market. They also mean some of the state’s most vulnerable residents will have to wait longer for help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The administration tried to fast-track Prop. 1 projects by smoothing some permitting and other hurdles, Newsom said during a news conference Wednesday. But he admitted there have been snags. “Some of that has been impacted by, candidly, tariffs, supply chain issues,” he said. “So there’s been some slippage in some of the projects. We’re deeply mindful and aware of that, but we’re just managing that on a daily basis.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom this week \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/03/11/ahead-of-schedule-governor-newsoms-prop-1-is-exceeding-goals-to-expand-capacity-and-treatment-statewide-helping-5m-californians/\">awarded the remaining $1.18 billion\u003c/a> from Prop. 1 for new treatment beds and outpatient slots. In all, the bond has funded 177 projects, which are supposed to create 6,919 residential treatment beds (119 more than originally promised) and 27,561 outpatient treatment slots (861 more than promised). But those projects, though they have now been funded, have yet to come to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>California farmers try to minimize effects of war as spring planting season begins \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The war with Iran is \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/war-with-iran-delivers-high-oil-prices-and-another-shock-to-the-global-economy\">doing collateral damage to the world economy.\u003c/a> The conflict is driving up energy and fertilizer prices and threatening food shortages in poor countries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roughly a third of nitrogen fertilizer traded globally flows through the Strait of Hormuz. That waterway has been effectively closed since the U.S. and Israel began attacking Iran almost two weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monterey County Resource Conservation District soil scientist Laura Murphy said farmers who use regenerative techniques may not feel the supply disruption as much. “You can ease out the shocks to this bigger global system if you reduce the complexity of the supply chains by reinvesting in your local soil and nutrient cycling system,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Murphy said practices like composting and cover cropping add nutrients to the soil, so it needs less fertilizer. While now staving off some of the economic effects of war, these practices are normally used to mitigate and adapt to climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"Page-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/iran-california-drones-newsom-trump-82afa326f0b362e0ae96b97e1e6c3d7e\">California governor says no imminent threat despite warning about possible Iran drone attack\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California Gov. Gavin Newsom said there was no imminent threat to the state, despite a warning from the FBI that Iran could send drones to the West Coast in retaliation for \u003cspan class=\"LinkEnhancement\">\u003ca class=\"Link AnClick-LinkEnhancement\" href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/iran\" data-gtm-enhancement-style=\"LinkEnhancementA\">war\u003c/a>\u003c/span>. Newsom said drone issues “have always been top of mind.” “We’ve been aware of that information. … It’s all about a posture of preparedness for worst-case scenarios,” \u003cspan class=\"LinkEnhancement\">\u003ca class=\"Link AnClick-LinkEnhancement\" href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/gavin-newsom\" data-gtm-enhancement-style=\"LinkEnhancementA\">the governor\u003c/a>\u003c/span> said Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The FBI recently warned police departments that Iran could try to strike the state. “Iran allegedly aspired to conduct a surprise attack using unmanned aerial vehicles from an unidentified vessel off the coast of the United State Homeland, specifically against unspecified targets in California, in the event that the US conducted strikes against Iran,” the alert said, \u003ca href=\"https://abcnews.com/US/fbi-warns-iran-aspired-attack-california-drones-retaliation/story?id=130973820\">according to ABC News.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have no additional information on the timing, method, target, or perpetrators of this alleged attack,” the FBI said. Police in Los Angeles and San Francisco said they were monitoring world events for any risks to their cities. Both said they’re working closely with state and federal authorities.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>On a recent weekday afternoon, about 15 people sat in a circle in a light-filled room above the Sutter Health emergency room in San Francisco. Facing one another, they each held a packet containing music and lyrics of songs from the 1960s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they began singing the Beatles classic, “Here Comes the Sun.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, they paused. Some needed help turning the page or finding the lyrics. Others hummed while waiting to rejoin the group. No one rushed them. After a moment, they began again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once a month at Sutter Health’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.sutterhealth.org/giving/giving-opportunities/neuroscience/ray-dolby-brain-health-center\">Brain Health Center\u003c/a> in San Francisco, people living with Alzheimer’s disease and other forms of cognitive decline gather alongside their caregivers, spouses and friends to sing together — part of a growing effort to support patients living with memory loss beyond medication.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In California, the Alzheimer’s Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.alz.org/getmedia/4e2d7fc8-0a5e-4e03-858b-0c106f07d8f0/california-cog-brfss-fact-sheet.pdf\">reports\u003c/a> that one in 10 adults age 45 and older experiences confusion or memory loss. Research shows\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9796133/\"> music can help\u003c/a> people with conditions like Alzheimer’s and dementia as a complement to medical care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12071051\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12071051\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Joe Debellis passes a tambourine to Pat Ronzone during a Music Mends Minds group singing event hosted by Sutter’s Ray Dolby Brain Health Center at CPMC’s Davies Campus in San Francisco on Jan. 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:VA6C2:21dea527-cdcd-4f55-8ee5-ea73036142bc\">“Music Mends Minds” sessions at Sutter Health\u003c/a>, which are free to join, are led by Pat Ronzone and Joe Debellis, a married musical duo who have performed together since 2009. Ronzone now lives with cognitive decline, and Debellis has watched participants, including his wife, benefit from the singing circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Music is a different circuit from memory,” said Debellis. “People who don’t remember my name are able to take to music, and it seems to be incorporated not just in the speech side of the brain but throughout the whole being.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He notices something else happen when the group sings together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Trying to decide who was memory-impaired and a caregiver, when singing, it’s just not obvious,” said Debellis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program that uses music to supplement medical care was the brainchild of cognitive neurologist Dr. Armen Moughamian. With Alzheimer’s, where brain function is lost over time, medications can slow progression of the disease, explained Moughamian, but primarily in early stages. By the time Alzheimer’s reaches its later stages, many patients no longer qualify for medical treatments, making music an approach that can offer relief at any stage of the disease.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of literature supporting non-medication ways to help patients manage the disease,” Moughamian explained. “And one aspect of that is building community, bringing patients together and using music.”[aside postID=news_12058091 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250831-CREATIVEMUTUALAID00140_TV-KQED.jpg']The goal, he said, is not restoring memory, but rather improving quality of life for people in all stages of cognitive decline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When language gets affected, people struggle to communicate, but music can transcend language,” said Moughamian, “It becomes a way of communicating and it calms people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And music can help surface memories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The group was singing “King of the Road” when Lauri Musumeche, who was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s three years ago, became overcome with emotion. The melody reminded her of her 98-year-old father, who used to play the harmonica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He did play [this song] for me one time, so it makes me want to cry,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her friend Kandy Jones drove her from Livermore to attend, and has witnessed music prompting recall outside these sessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ll say a phrase from a song and she immediately starts singing it,” Jones said. “It’s a real trigger.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Musumeche, the benefit is emotional as much as cognitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It helps me feel good,” she said. “When you have Alzheimer’s, you’re always kind of sad.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12071048\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12071048\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rachel Main, support services coordinator at Sutter’s Ray Dolby Brain Health Center, holds up a song list during a Music Mends Minds group singing event themed “Songs of the ’60s” at CPMC’s Davies Campus in San Francisco on Jan. 23, 2026 \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For Jim Hayden, the group helps preserve part of his wife Sandy Noltimier’s identity. She studied vocal performance, sang in a symphony chorus and performed as part of an A capella trio called PMS for decades before developing Alzheimer’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She’s doing what she loves. It’s something she’s still good at,” said Hayden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noltimier said she values the absence of judgment and being less self-critical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a place where I don’t have to feel like someone’s listening too closely or saying I did it wrong,” she explained. “Everybody here has something they’re working through, and that makes it easier.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noltimier and Hayden attend together not as caregiver and patient but as partners. The hour gives them a shared activity that Alzheimer’s has not taken away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re always trying to drown each other out,” laughed Hayden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time the session came to an end, the participants had run through nearly ten songs, clapping and tapping their feet to “Puff the Magic Dragon” and “Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And next month, they’ll come back and sing a repertoire of songs reflective of Spring, dust the cobwebs off of another set of lyrics from their youth, and perhaps, unlock significant memories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>On a recent weekday afternoon, about 15 people sat in a circle in a light-filled room above the Sutter Health emergency room in San Francisco. Facing one another, they each held a packet containing music and lyrics of songs from the 1960s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they began singing the Beatles classic, “Here Comes the Sun.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, they paused. Some needed help turning the page or finding the lyrics. Others hummed while waiting to rejoin the group. No one rushed them. After a moment, they began again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once a month at Sutter Health’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.sutterhealth.org/giving/giving-opportunities/neuroscience/ray-dolby-brain-health-center\">Brain Health Center\u003c/a> in San Francisco, people living with Alzheimer’s disease and other forms of cognitive decline gather alongside their caregivers, spouses and friends to sing together — part of a growing effort to support patients living with memory loss beyond medication.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In California, the Alzheimer’s Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.alz.org/getmedia/4e2d7fc8-0a5e-4e03-858b-0c106f07d8f0/california-cog-brfss-fact-sheet.pdf\">reports\u003c/a> that one in 10 adults age 45 and older experiences confusion or memory loss. Research shows\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9796133/\"> music can help\u003c/a> people with conditions like Alzheimer’s and dementia as a complement to medical care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12071051\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12071051\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_012-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Joe Debellis passes a tambourine to Pat Ronzone during a Music Mends Minds group singing event hosted by Sutter’s Ray Dolby Brain Health Center at CPMC’s Davies Campus in San Francisco on Jan. 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:VA6C2:21dea527-cdcd-4f55-8ee5-ea73036142bc\">“Music Mends Minds” sessions at Sutter Health\u003c/a>, which are free to join, are led by Pat Ronzone and Joe Debellis, a married musical duo who have performed together since 2009. Ronzone now lives with cognitive decline, and Debellis has watched participants, including his wife, benefit from the singing circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Music is a different circuit from memory,” said Debellis. “People who don’t remember my name are able to take to music, and it seems to be incorporated not just in the speech side of the brain but throughout the whole being.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He notices something else happen when the group sings together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Trying to decide who was memory-impaired and a caregiver, when singing, it’s just not obvious,” said Debellis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program that uses music to supplement medical care was the brainchild of cognitive neurologist Dr. Armen Moughamian. With Alzheimer’s, where brain function is lost over time, medications can slow progression of the disease, explained Moughamian, but primarily in early stages. By the time Alzheimer’s reaches its later stages, many patients no longer qualify for medical treatments, making music an approach that can offer relief at any stage of the disease.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of literature supporting non-medication ways to help patients manage the disease,” Moughamian explained. “And one aspect of that is building community, bringing patients together and using music.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The goal, he said, is not restoring memory, but rather improving quality of life for people in all stages of cognitive decline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When language gets affected, people struggle to communicate, but music can transcend language,” said Moughamian, “It becomes a way of communicating and it calms people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And music can help surface memories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The group was singing “King of the Road” when Lauri Musumeche, who was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s three years ago, became overcome with emotion. The melody reminded her of her 98-year-old father, who used to play the harmonica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He did play [this song] for me one time, so it makes me want to cry,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her friend Kandy Jones drove her from Livermore to attend, and has witnessed music prompting recall outside these sessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ll say a phrase from a song and she immediately starts singing it,” Jones said. “It’s a real trigger.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Musumeche, the benefit is emotional as much as cognitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It helps me feel good,” she said. “When you have Alzheimer’s, you’re always kind of sad.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12071048\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12071048\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/012326_SINGINGHEALTH_GH_002-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rachel Main, support services coordinator at Sutter’s Ray Dolby Brain Health Center, holds up a song list during a Music Mends Minds group singing event themed “Songs of the ’60s” at CPMC’s Davies Campus in San Francisco on Jan. 23, 2026 \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For Jim Hayden, the group helps preserve part of his wife Sandy Noltimier’s identity. She studied vocal performance, sang in a symphony chorus and performed as part of an A capella trio called PMS for decades before developing Alzheimer’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She’s doing what she loves. It’s something she’s still good at,” said Hayden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noltimier said she values the absence of judgment and being less self-critical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a place where I don’t have to feel like someone’s listening too closely or saying I did it wrong,” she explained. “Everybody here has something they’re working through, and that makes it easier.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noltimier and Hayden attend together not as caregiver and patient but as partners. The hour gives them a shared activity that Alzheimer’s has not taken away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re always trying to drown each other out,” laughed Hayden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time the session came to an end, the participants had run through nearly ten songs, clapping and tapping their feet to “Puff the Magic Dragon” and “Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And next month, they’ll come back and sing a repertoire of songs reflective of Spring, dust the cobwebs off of another set of lyrics from their youth, and perhaps, unlock significant memories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "kaiser-workers-say-patients-deserve-better-mental-health-care-after-31m-settlement",
"title": "Kaiser Workers Say Patients Deserve Better Mental Health Care After $31M Settlement",
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"headTitle": "Kaiser Workers Say Patients Deserve Better Mental Health Care After $31M Settlement | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> will pay a $31 million settlement with the federal government over the company’s mental health care practices, according to an agreement reached this week that followed an investigation into the company’s compliance with mental health laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the therapists and other mental health workers employed by the health care provider said they remain concerned that patients in California are still struggling to get the timely help they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Tuesday, the U.S. Department of Labor \u003ca href=\"https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/ebsa/ebsa20260210\">announced\u003c/a> it ordered the Oakland-based health care giant to reimburse Kaiser members in the Golden State for more than $28 million in costs incurred when seeking out-of-network mental health and substance use disorder treatment — saying in a statement that the company failed “to provide timely and appropriate access” to those services between January 2021 and September 2024. Kaiser will also pay a $2.8 million penalty to the federal government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Critics for years have alleged that Kaiser has not maintained adequate provider networks for mental health and substance use disorder care, forcing many patients to pay for health care services out of pocket. Mental health care workers said they first took their concerns to Kaiser management, where they were not addressed, then brought them to the attention of the federal labor agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser attributed the lack of consistent access to care to surges in demand for mental health care treatment over the past six years, triggered by the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These challenges made it very difficult for our members to get consistent access to the care they needed when they needed it,” spokesperson Lena Howland said. “We are committed to reimbursing those members who tried but may have been unable to get timely care from Kaiser Permanente in that time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059848\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059848\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251014-KAISER-STRIKE-START-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251014-KAISER-STRIKE-START-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251014-KAISER-STRIKE-START-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251014-KAISER-STRIKE-START-MD-04-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Workers strike outside of the Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center in Oakland on Oct. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the midst of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/mental-health/about/what-cdc-is-doing.html\">national\u003c/a> mental health crisis, finding a therapist, especially one who accepts insurance,\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/stateofhealth/series/state-of-mind\"> has become notoriously difficult\u003c/a> as the field struggles with workforce shortages and low reimbursement rates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaiser has grappled with these industry-wide challenges for\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/stateofhealth/21358/kaiser-agrees-to-pay-4-million-fine-over-mental-health-care-drops-lawsuit\"> over a decade\u003c/a>. California regulators have\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11791527/kaiser-therapists-strike-again-over-long-wait-times\"> repeatedly cited the company\u003c/a> for making patients wait\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11891049/california-bill-would-reduce-wait-times-for-mental-health-appointments\"> too long\u003c/a> for mental health appointments, ordering Kaiser to address persistent issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The National Union of Healthcare Workers, which represents Kaiser Permanente’s 4,800 mental health professionals in California and Hawaii, said Friday that the health care giant’s proposals in ongoing contract negotiations indicate that patients hoping for shorter wait times and greater access to therapists may expect business as usual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of our therapists still can’t see patients for weeks at a time,” said Matthew Artz, a union spokesperson. “Some of them can’t ‘refer out’ to outside providers. And even if Kaiser is increasing its network, it’s doing other things to diminish care.”[aside postID=news_12072837 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/020926_KAISERSTRIKE_8137B-KQED.jpg']One of the major points of contention is Kaiser’s use of telephone operators and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999553/will-ai-replace-your-therapist-kaiser-wont-say-no\">artificial intelligence to triage\u003c/a> and treat mental health patients. Kaiser uses those intermediaries, the union said, to determine how quickly a patient needs care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In contract negotiations with therapists in Northern California, the union said Kaiser is seeking free rein to push patients into AI-based therapy protocols that Artz argued would diminish the quality of care. However, the company has said its AI tools don’t make medical decisions or replace human care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kaiser is not acting like a health care provider that has seen the errors of its ways and wants to provide better mental health care,” Artz said. “It’s really acting like an insurance company that still wants to spend as little money as possible on mental health and just try to avoid getting in trouble.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The settlement comes less than three years after Kaiser agreed to pay a $200 million penalty, including a historic $50 million fine, as part of a settlement related to California’s 2021 parity law, designed to provide equal access to mental and physical health. As part of \u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/zMY5CADmygFGn4yOs9iRIGs93S?domain=wpso.dmhc.ca.gov\">that agreement\u003c/a>, Kaiser acknowledged at that time that it lacked “sufficient behavioral health providers” and that “this lack of clinical staff has resulted in excessive wait times for enrollee individual therapy appointments.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tens of thousands of Kaiser Permanente nurses, pharmacists and other physical health care workers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12072837/kaiser-strike-delays-surgeries-disrupts-care-as-more-workers-walk-off-jobs\">are on strike\u003c/a> across the state over stalled contract talks, staffing levels and pay. NUHW members, who went on a 10-week strike in 2022, are voting on whether to join their colleagues on the picket lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kaiser therapists have been very willing to go on strike in order to advocate for better patient care and better working conditions,” Artz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s Desmond Meagley contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Kaiser therapists and mental health workers are considering joining the tens of thousands of nurses, pharmacists and other physical health care workers who are currently striking. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> will pay a $31 million settlement with the federal government over the company’s mental health care practices, according to an agreement reached this week that followed an investigation into the company’s compliance with mental health laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the therapists and other mental health workers employed by the health care provider said they remain concerned that patients in California are still struggling to get the timely help they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Tuesday, the U.S. Department of Labor \u003ca href=\"https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/ebsa/ebsa20260210\">announced\u003c/a> it ordered the Oakland-based health care giant to reimburse Kaiser members in the Golden State for more than $28 million in costs incurred when seeking out-of-network mental health and substance use disorder treatment — saying in a statement that the company failed “to provide timely and appropriate access” to those services between January 2021 and September 2024. Kaiser will also pay a $2.8 million penalty to the federal government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Critics for years have alleged that Kaiser has not maintained adequate provider networks for mental health and substance use disorder care, forcing many patients to pay for health care services out of pocket. Mental health care workers said they first took their concerns to Kaiser management, where they were not addressed, then brought them to the attention of the federal labor agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser attributed the lack of consistent access to care to surges in demand for mental health care treatment over the past six years, triggered by the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These challenges made it very difficult for our members to get consistent access to the care they needed when they needed it,” spokesperson Lena Howland said. “We are committed to reimbursing those members who tried but may have been unable to get timely care from Kaiser Permanente in that time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059848\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059848\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251014-KAISER-STRIKE-START-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251014-KAISER-STRIKE-START-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251014-KAISER-STRIKE-START-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251014-KAISER-STRIKE-START-MD-04-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Workers strike outside of the Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center in Oakland on Oct. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the midst of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/mental-health/about/what-cdc-is-doing.html\">national\u003c/a> mental health crisis, finding a therapist, especially one who accepts insurance,\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/stateofhealth/series/state-of-mind\"> has become notoriously difficult\u003c/a> as the field struggles with workforce shortages and low reimbursement rates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaiser has grappled with these industry-wide challenges for\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/stateofhealth/21358/kaiser-agrees-to-pay-4-million-fine-over-mental-health-care-drops-lawsuit\"> over a decade\u003c/a>. California regulators have\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11791527/kaiser-therapists-strike-again-over-long-wait-times\"> repeatedly cited the company\u003c/a> for making patients wait\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11891049/california-bill-would-reduce-wait-times-for-mental-health-appointments\"> too long\u003c/a> for mental health appointments, ordering Kaiser to address persistent issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The National Union of Healthcare Workers, which represents Kaiser Permanente’s 4,800 mental health professionals in California and Hawaii, said Friday that the health care giant’s proposals in ongoing contract negotiations indicate that patients hoping for shorter wait times and greater access to therapists may expect business as usual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of our therapists still can’t see patients for weeks at a time,” said Matthew Artz, a union spokesperson. “Some of them can’t ‘refer out’ to outside providers. And even if Kaiser is increasing its network, it’s doing other things to diminish care.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>One of the major points of contention is Kaiser’s use of telephone operators and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999553/will-ai-replace-your-therapist-kaiser-wont-say-no\">artificial intelligence to triage\u003c/a> and treat mental health patients. Kaiser uses those intermediaries, the union said, to determine how quickly a patient needs care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In contract negotiations with therapists in Northern California, the union said Kaiser is seeking free rein to push patients into AI-based therapy protocols that Artz argued would diminish the quality of care. However, the company has said its AI tools don’t make medical decisions or replace human care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kaiser is not acting like a health care provider that has seen the errors of its ways and wants to provide better mental health care,” Artz said. “It’s really acting like an insurance company that still wants to spend as little money as possible on mental health and just try to avoid getting in trouble.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The settlement comes less than three years after Kaiser agreed to pay a $200 million penalty, including a historic $50 million fine, as part of a settlement related to California’s 2021 parity law, designed to provide equal access to mental and physical health. As part of \u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/zMY5CADmygFGn4yOs9iRIGs93S?domain=wpso.dmhc.ca.gov\">that agreement\u003c/a>, Kaiser acknowledged at that time that it lacked “sufficient behavioral health providers” and that “this lack of clinical staff has resulted in excessive wait times for enrollee individual therapy appointments.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tens of thousands of Kaiser Permanente nurses, pharmacists and other physical health care workers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12072837/kaiser-strike-delays-surgeries-disrupts-care-as-more-workers-walk-off-jobs\">are on strike\u003c/a> across the state over stalled contract talks, staffing levels and pay. NUHW members, who went on a 10-week strike in 2022, are voting on whether to join their colleagues on the picket lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kaiser therapists have been very willing to go on strike in order to advocate for better patient care and better working conditions,” Artz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s Desmond Meagley contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "lurie-newsom-tout-millions-in-homelessness-funding-for-san-francisco-amid-budget-blows",
"title": "Lurie, Newsom Tout Millions in Homelessness Funding for San Francisco Amid Budget Blows",
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"headTitle": "Lurie, Newsom Tout Millions in Homelessness Funding for San Francisco Amid Budget Blows | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>As San Francisco stares down another year of painful budget cuts, California Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> announced Friday the state will provide the city with millions of additional dollars for homelessness programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The injection of homelessness funding comes as San Francisco is facing a nearly $936.6 million budget deficit in the next two fiscal years, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://media.api.sf.gov/documents/Joint_Report_FY_26-27_through_FY_29-30.pdf\">city report\u003c/a> released in December 2025. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064324/its-devastating-more-than-100m-for-housing-homeless-at-risk-under-new-hud-policy\">The Trump Administration’s cuts\u003c/a> through the ‘One Big Beautiful Bill Act’ are also projected to pull nearly $300 million from the city’s budget for programs like food assistance and Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are changing our approach to homelessness to get people off the street and on a path to stability,” Lurie said at a press conference in the Mission District alongside Newsom. “But we can’t do this alone.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Friday, Newsom announced that a combined $419 million will go to San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego in the sixth round of grants awarded through the Homeless Housing Assistance and Prevention Program. The HHAP program has distributed around $4.5 billion for local homelessness response so far, according to the governor, and additional dollars will be doled out in the next six months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco will receive about $39.9 million, which will fund shelters and navigation centers throughout the city. Just prior to the latest round of grants, the state awarded \u003ca href=\"https://www.hcd.ca.gov/housing-open-data-tools/hhap-dashboard\">$187 million to San Francisco\u003c/a>, according to the HHAP fiscal data dashboard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070220\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070220\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260116-NEWSOMLURIEPRESSER-21-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260116-NEWSOMLURIEPRESSER-21-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260116-NEWSOMLURIEPRESSER-21-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260116-NEWSOMLURIEPRESSER-21-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks during a press conference at the Friendship House Association of American Indians in San Francisco on Jan. 16, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In its last budget negotiations, Lurie spearheaded a controversial effort to reallocate funds that voters approved through Proposition C, a tax on the city’s wealthiest companies to fund homelessness services. The approved budget shifted some dollars that were set aside for permanent supportive housing toward temporary shelter and transitional housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069177/newsoms-final-budget-disappoints-housing-homeless-advocates\">long-term state funding for homeless programs is also unclear\u003c/a>. California allocated initial funding for the HHAP program in the 2024-25 fiscal year budget, but no additional funding for that specific program was allocated in the 2025-26 budget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The proposed 2026-27 budget, which is still under review, includes around $500 million for HHAP, about half of what was originally allocated. Newsom on Friday underscored that the state had very little investment in homelessness response prior to his administration.[aside postID=news_12069711 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260115-SFCHILDCARESUBSIDIES00057_TV-KQED.jpg']Additionally, decades ago, the state shut down many poorly run public hospitals and closed beds for people experiencing severe mental illness, with the aim of pivoting to a community-led response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the local approach never fully materialized, setting up generations of Californians without adequate behavioral health resources as the population grew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The state had no vision. The state had no plan. The state was not involved in housing and mental health and homelessness just seven years ago,” Newsom said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California voters in 2024 passed Proposition 1, which Newsom advocated strongly for, giving the state a $6.4 billion bond for housing, services and treatment for people experiencing homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Governor’s office reports that unsheltered homelessness in California has dropped 9% statewide in the last year, based on counties’ 2025 data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m tremendously proud of the progress we’re making. Before I got here, between 2015 and 2019, we saw almost 52% increase in unsheltered homelessness,” Newsom said on Friday. “We’ve seen real progress in the last few years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>As San Francisco stares down another year of painful budget cuts, California Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> announced Friday the state will provide the city with millions of additional dollars for homelessness programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The injection of homelessness funding comes as San Francisco is facing a nearly $936.6 million budget deficit in the next two fiscal years, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://media.api.sf.gov/documents/Joint_Report_FY_26-27_through_FY_29-30.pdf\">city report\u003c/a> released in December 2025. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064324/its-devastating-more-than-100m-for-housing-homeless-at-risk-under-new-hud-policy\">The Trump Administration’s cuts\u003c/a> through the ‘One Big Beautiful Bill Act’ are also projected to pull nearly $300 million from the city’s budget for programs like food assistance and Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are changing our approach to homelessness to get people off the street and on a path to stability,” Lurie said at a press conference in the Mission District alongside Newsom. “But we can’t do this alone.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Friday, Newsom announced that a combined $419 million will go to San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego in the sixth round of grants awarded through the Homeless Housing Assistance and Prevention Program. The HHAP program has distributed around $4.5 billion for local homelessness response so far, according to the governor, and additional dollars will be doled out in the next six months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco will receive about $39.9 million, which will fund shelters and navigation centers throughout the city. Just prior to the latest round of grants, the state awarded \u003ca href=\"https://www.hcd.ca.gov/housing-open-data-tools/hhap-dashboard\">$187 million to San Francisco\u003c/a>, according to the HHAP fiscal data dashboard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070220\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070220\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260116-NEWSOMLURIEPRESSER-21-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260116-NEWSOMLURIEPRESSER-21-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260116-NEWSOMLURIEPRESSER-21-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260116-NEWSOMLURIEPRESSER-21-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks during a press conference at the Friendship House Association of American Indians in San Francisco on Jan. 16, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In its last budget negotiations, Lurie spearheaded a controversial effort to reallocate funds that voters approved through Proposition C, a tax on the city’s wealthiest companies to fund homelessness services. The approved budget shifted some dollars that were set aside for permanent supportive housing toward temporary shelter and transitional housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069177/newsoms-final-budget-disappoints-housing-homeless-advocates\">long-term state funding for homeless programs is also unclear\u003c/a>. California allocated initial funding for the HHAP program in the 2024-25 fiscal year budget, but no additional funding for that specific program was allocated in the 2025-26 budget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The proposed 2026-27 budget, which is still under review, includes around $500 million for HHAP, about half of what was originally allocated. Newsom on Friday underscored that the state had very little investment in homelessness response prior to his administration.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Additionally, decades ago, the state shut down many poorly run public hospitals and closed beds for people experiencing severe mental illness, with the aim of pivoting to a community-led response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the local approach never fully materialized, setting up generations of Californians without adequate behavioral health resources as the population grew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The state had no vision. The state had no plan. The state was not involved in housing and mental health and homelessness just seven years ago,” Newsom said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California voters in 2024 passed Proposition 1, which Newsom advocated strongly for, giving the state a $6.4 billion bond for housing, services and treatment for people experiencing homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Governor’s office reports that unsheltered homelessness in California has dropped 9% statewide in the last year, based on counties’ 2025 data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m tremendously proud of the progress we’re making. Before I got here, between 2015 and 2019, we saw almost 52% increase in unsheltered homelessness,” Newsom said on Friday. “We’ve seen real progress in the last few years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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