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"content": "\u003cp>Constant spam calls and fake texts \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/08/08/nx-s1-5494743/weve-all-gotten-those-hiring-scam-texts-instead-of-deleting-this-writer-played-along\">promising job offers\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/yrechtman/status/2008946516820406366?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\">easy cash\u003c/a> or, in some cases, a coffee date have been the bane of my existence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not just me. According to the consumer advocacy organization \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/edfund/\">U.S. PIRG Education Fund\u003c/a>, Americans received \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/robocalls-on-the-rise-heres-why/\">2.56 \u003cem>billion \u003c/em>robocalls per month\u003c/a> from January to September 2025. And in recent years, scammers have increased their use of text messaging or DMs on social media platforms to get your information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for how they get your phone number, it’s because these scammers \u003ca href=\"https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-proposes-rule-to-stop-data-brokers-from-selling-sensitive-personal-data-to-scammers-stalkers-and-spies/\">usually obtain your contact details\u003c/a> from data brokers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098614/phone-text-scams-california-irs-bank-cdph-emergency-call-how-to-spot-fake-job-offer\">Scam messages have gotten so bad\u003c/a> in recent years that, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069507/sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers\">as of January\u003c/a>, a new \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/about-drop-and-the-delete-act/\">California privacy law\u003c/a> — the Delete Request and Opt-out Platform (DROP) — began to offer state residents a way to limit the amount of information available to those data brokers by submitting deletion requests to have their information manually removed. As of August, data brokers have been required to start the deletion process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over 520,000 Californians have signed up for DROP so far, according to Tom Kemp, the executive director of CalPrivacy, the state’s Privacy Protection Agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re also pleased to see that it has real-world value already,” Kemp said. “People are getting dozens and dozens of dozens of deletions occurring, which means their digital footprint is now being reduced — and that will have a downstream benefit of less spam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Scams are caused increasingly by the bad guys getting data from data brokers,” Kemp continued. “And AI is making it incredibly easy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because data brokers \u003ca href=\"https://epic.org/issues/consumer-privacy/data-brokers/\">collect and sell a plethora of personal information\u003c/a> about you — including names, addresses, income, political party, shopping habits and more — there are other reasons beyond spam calls to want your details removed from their databases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/pirdbooop/status/1906800016141758795?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a good way to maintain digital privacy and prevent other bodies (\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055606/how-ice-is-using-your-data-and-what-you-can-do-about-it\">including, increasingly, federal agencies\u003c/a>) from accessing even more information about you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike a bank or a pharmacy, data brokers specifically \u003cem>don’t \u003c/em>have a direct relationship with you, said Kemp. Instead, they function to indirectly collect as much information about you as they can, to “create these digital dossiers that they’ll sell to anyone with a credit card,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Signing up for DROP will “significantly” reduce your digital footprint, said Kemp, because your “attack surface will be dramatically reduced” by fewer people having your personal information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/dadogeking/status/1939026526667973071?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while Kemp acknowledged that the long-term effects of the law might “take a couple years to see” — for example, if elder fraud will go down in California as compared with other states — it’s nonetheless “one big step in the right direction,” he said. (In fact, news outlet CalMatters \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/06/help-us-investigate-data-privacy-california/\">recently announced a crowdsourced effort\u003c/a> to track DROP’s progress.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep reading for an overview of the DROP law, from what it does to how to submit a request yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state also has \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">its own thorough resource on navigating DROP\u003c/a>, including \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">what it means to delete your personal data\u003c/a>. Be sure to also check out KQED’s guide on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">more ways to protect yourself online\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How you can use DROP\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch3>Who can submit a DROP request?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>You can use DROP if you are a California resident and must \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">verify that you are a California resident\u003c/a> when you fill out the form by either:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Providing personal information,\u003c/strong> including name, date of birth, address, phone or email. If you cannot provide a phone number or email, you may need to provide a Social Security number or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. You will give this information on a state website called the \u003ca href=\"https://digitalidstrategy.cdt.ca.gov/\">California Identity Gateway\u003c/a>, which is often used to verify residency. According to the state, this information will be used only to verify your identity and residency and will not be stored or shared.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Creating an account\u003c/strong> through \u003ca href=\"http://login.gov\">login.gov\u003c/a>, a \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">“federally hosted identity verification service used by many government agencies.”\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind that if you choose to verify either through the California Identity Gateway or login.gov, you will need to use the same method for future DROP requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once your identity is verified, you will be able to proceed with the submission form on the DROP website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069526 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">According to the consumer advocacy organization U.S. PIRG Education Fund, Americans received 2.56 billion robocalls per month from January to September 2025. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>How can I submit a DROP request?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>You can submit a request using \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">the state’s official DROP website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After verifying you’re a California resident (see above), you’ll fill out some basic information, including:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Full name (including any other variations of your name, like a maiden name or nickname)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Date of birth\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Zip code(s)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address(es), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Phone number(s), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Any unique IDs you have connected to your phone or smart TV since, according to the form, “Data brokers may use these IDs to track your habits and sell or share your data.” The Markup has \u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/privacy/2026/01/08/how-californians-can-use-a-new-state-website-to-block-hundreds-of-data-brokers\">a guide on finding some specific IDs\u003c/a>, like advertising IDs, on your smartphone.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Vehicle Identification Number (found on your car’s registration documents)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, the “more information you provide, the more likely your personal data will be deleted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The entire process — if you have these unique numbers on hand — takes under 10 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Applying through DROP will be a lot quicker than the usual deletion process available to you, in which users had to contact each company individually to have their information removed — or pay for a service to do it in bulk. And investigative reports also show that \u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/privacy/2025/08/12/we-caught-companies-making-it-harder-to-delete-your-data\">the success of finding those deletion requests can vary\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After submitting the form, you will receive a DROP ID. You should save this ID, and you can use it to \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/dropstatus\">track the state of your deletion request\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the state’s DROP website, the information you put in the form \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">“won’t be sold or shared for any other reason.”\u003c/a> The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">state’s website\u003c/a> explains how it encrypts input data and what data brokers see in your requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069528 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The new DROP law means that in August 2026, data brokers are required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>Does submitting a DROP request cost anything?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>No. Submitting a DROP request is free.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Can I submit a DROP form for someone else?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Yes, you can submit a request for another person, like your child or your parent. The person must still be a California resident, and they must have given you permission to submit the DROP request for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you are submitting a form for another person, you must use \u003cem>their \u003c/em>details when verifying California residency, not your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After filling out the other person’s information, you will then need to provide your full name and your email address.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How does DROP work?\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch3>What data of mine will be deleted as part of DROP?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The new DROP law means that data brokers are now required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days, as of August.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there is a chance that your data may be deleted even earlier. According to Kemp, “a lot of these data brokers have already reported back, and so far about 25% of the data brokers have said that they did the deletion matching.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to your phone number, this information about you that data brokers must begin to delete may include your:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Name\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Birthday\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Geolocation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Health data\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Interests, such as your political party affiliation or your hobbies.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>There are exceptions to what data these brokers must delete: For example, publicly available information (like a court appearance or property records) will not be deleted under DROP.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Where will the data be deleted from?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, “All current and future data brokers who register with CalPrivacy are included in your deletion request.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12055606 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/USImmigrationCustomsEnforcementHQGetty.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can check out \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/data_broker_registry/\">the list of over 600 active data brokers on the DROP website\u003c/a>, and even directly opt in for the ones you actually wish to be listed on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The DROP website also allows you to look at these data brokers individually and see what kind of data they’re gathering, like reproductive health information and biometric data. In some cases, you can also see where your data is being sold to, like developers of generative AI — or the federal government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonprofit groups like charities may have your information, Kemp explained. But these are \u003cem>not \u003c/em>required to be part of the registry of data brokers, which are for-profit companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The registry doesn’t just include data brokers based in California; it applies to companies out of state as well, said Kemp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As long as there’s a company that has a lot of Californians’ data that they collect and sell and they don’t have that direct relationship, they have to register,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind: \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">According to the state website\u003c/a>, deleting your information could lead to a less personalized web experience, like targeted ads.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>How long will it take for the data to be deleted?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After you apply for DROP, you’ll then have \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">a personal DROP profile online \u003c/a>— which you can periodically check for updates on your digital privacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now that the deletion process has started, you’ll likely begin to see updates from brokers to your requests on your DROP profile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">possible status updates\u003c/a> are:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Deleted: \u003c/strong>Your data is deleted and will not be sold.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Exempted: \u003c/strong>Your data is allowed to be kept because it is exempted by the privacy law, such as a court or public record.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Opted-out: \u003c/strong>Data brokers couldn’t find the exact information you input.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Record not found: \u003c/strong>Data brokers could not find the information at \u003cem>all\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Pending: \u003c/strong>Your deletion request is still being processed.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>You may need to \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">provide more information\u003c/a> or take extra steps if data brokers are unable to fulfill your request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data brokers are \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">required to delete information every 45 days\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">take up to 90 days to give an update\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kemp said that the state does plan to “vigorously enforce this” and, “if a data broker is not properly doing the deletions, or ignoring the deletions, the fines are $200 per day per record.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Over Half a Million Californians Have Signed Up to Delete Their Info From Data Brokers. Here’s How You Can, Too | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Constant spam calls and fake texts \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/08/08/nx-s1-5494743/weve-all-gotten-those-hiring-scam-texts-instead-of-deleting-this-writer-played-along\">promising job offers\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/yrechtman/status/2008946516820406366?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\">easy cash\u003c/a> or, in some cases, a coffee date have been the bane of my existence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not just me. According to the consumer advocacy organization \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/edfund/\">U.S. PIRG Education Fund\u003c/a>, Americans received \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/robocalls-on-the-rise-heres-why/\">2.56 \u003cem>billion \u003c/em>robocalls per month\u003c/a> from January to September 2025. And in recent years, scammers have increased their use of text messaging or DMs on social media platforms to get your information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for how they get your phone number, it’s because these scammers \u003ca href=\"https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-proposes-rule-to-stop-data-brokers-from-selling-sensitive-personal-data-to-scammers-stalkers-and-spies/\">usually obtain your contact details\u003c/a> from data brokers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098614/phone-text-scams-california-irs-bank-cdph-emergency-call-how-to-spot-fake-job-offer\">Scam messages have gotten so bad\u003c/a> in recent years that, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069507/sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers\">as of January\u003c/a>, a new \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/about-drop-and-the-delete-act/\">California privacy law\u003c/a> — the Delete Request and Opt-out Platform (DROP) — began to offer state residents a way to limit the amount of information available to those data brokers by submitting deletion requests to have their information manually removed. As of August, data brokers have been required to start the deletion process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over 520,000 Californians have signed up for DROP so far, according to Tom Kemp, the executive director of CalPrivacy, the state’s Privacy Protection Agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re also pleased to see that it has real-world value already,” Kemp said. “People are getting dozens and dozens of dozens of deletions occurring, which means their digital footprint is now being reduced — and that will have a downstream benefit of less spam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Scams are caused increasingly by the bad guys getting data from data brokers,” Kemp continued. “And AI is making it incredibly easy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because data brokers \u003ca href=\"https://epic.org/issues/consumer-privacy/data-brokers/\">collect and sell a plethora of personal information\u003c/a> about you — including names, addresses, income, political party, shopping habits and more — there are other reasons beyond spam calls to want your details removed from their databases.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>It’s a good way to maintain digital privacy and prevent other bodies (\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055606/how-ice-is-using-your-data-and-what-you-can-do-about-it\">including, increasingly, federal agencies\u003c/a>) from accessing even more information about you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike a bank or a pharmacy, data brokers specifically \u003cem>don’t \u003c/em>have a direct relationship with you, said Kemp. Instead, they function to indirectly collect as much information about you as they can, to “create these digital dossiers that they’ll sell to anyone with a credit card,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Signing up for DROP will “significantly” reduce your digital footprint, said Kemp, because your “attack surface will be dramatically reduced” by fewer people having your personal information.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>And while Kemp acknowledged that the long-term effects of the law might “take a couple years to see” — for example, if elder fraud will go down in California as compared with other states — it’s nonetheless “one big step in the right direction,” he said. (In fact, news outlet CalMatters \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/06/help-us-investigate-data-privacy-california/\">recently announced a crowdsourced effort\u003c/a> to track DROP’s progress.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep reading for an overview of the DROP law, from what it does to how to submit a request yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state also has \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">its own thorough resource on navigating DROP\u003c/a>, including \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">what it means to delete your personal data\u003c/a>. Be sure to also check out KQED’s guide on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">more ways to protect yourself online\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How you can use DROP\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch3>Who can submit a DROP request?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>You can use DROP if you are a California resident and must \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">verify that you are a California resident\u003c/a> when you fill out the form by either:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Providing personal information,\u003c/strong> including name, date of birth, address, phone or email. If you cannot provide a phone number or email, you may need to provide a Social Security number or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. You will give this information on a state website called the \u003ca href=\"https://digitalidstrategy.cdt.ca.gov/\">California Identity Gateway\u003c/a>, which is often used to verify residency. According to the state, this information will be used only to verify your identity and residency and will not be stored or shared.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Creating an account\u003c/strong> through \u003ca href=\"http://login.gov\">login.gov\u003c/a>, a \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">“federally hosted identity verification service used by many government agencies.”\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind that if you choose to verify either through the California Identity Gateway or login.gov, you will need to use the same method for future DROP requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once your identity is verified, you will be able to proceed with the submission form on the DROP website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069526 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">According to the consumer advocacy organization U.S. PIRG Education Fund, Americans received 2.56 billion robocalls per month from January to September 2025. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>How can I submit a DROP request?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>You can submit a request using \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">the state’s official DROP website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After verifying you’re a California resident (see above), you’ll fill out some basic information, including:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Full name (including any other variations of your name, like a maiden name or nickname)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Date of birth\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Zip code(s)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address(es), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Phone number(s), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Any unique IDs you have connected to your phone or smart TV since, according to the form, “Data brokers may use these IDs to track your habits and sell or share your data.” The Markup has \u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/privacy/2026/01/08/how-californians-can-use-a-new-state-website-to-block-hundreds-of-data-brokers\">a guide on finding some specific IDs\u003c/a>, like advertising IDs, on your smartphone.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Vehicle Identification Number (found on your car’s registration documents)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, the “more information you provide, the more likely your personal data will be deleted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The entire process — if you have these unique numbers on hand — takes under 10 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Applying through DROP will be a lot quicker than the usual deletion process available to you, in which users had to contact each company individually to have their information removed — or pay for a service to do it in bulk. And investigative reports also show that \u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/privacy/2025/08/12/we-caught-companies-making-it-harder-to-delete-your-data\">the success of finding those deletion requests can vary\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After submitting the form, you will receive a DROP ID. You should save this ID, and you can use it to \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/dropstatus\">track the state of your deletion request\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the state’s DROP website, the information you put in the form \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">“won’t be sold or shared for any other reason.”\u003c/a> The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">state’s website\u003c/a> explains how it encrypts input data and what data brokers see in your requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069528 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The new DROP law means that in August 2026, data brokers are required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>Does submitting a DROP request cost anything?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>No. Submitting a DROP request is free.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Can I submit a DROP form for someone else?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Yes, you can submit a request for another person, like your child or your parent. The person must still be a California resident, and they must have given you permission to submit the DROP request for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you are submitting a form for another person, you must use \u003cem>their \u003c/em>details when verifying California residency, not your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After filling out the other person’s information, you will then need to provide your full name and your email address.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How does DROP work?\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch3>What data of mine will be deleted as part of DROP?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The new DROP law means that data brokers are now required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days, as of August.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there is a chance that your data may be deleted even earlier. According to Kemp, “a lot of these data brokers have already reported back, and so far about 25% of the data brokers have said that they did the deletion matching.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to your phone number, this information about you that data brokers must begin to delete may include your:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Name\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Birthday\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Geolocation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Health data\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Interests, such as your political party affiliation or your hobbies.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>There are exceptions to what data these brokers must delete: For example, publicly available information (like a court appearance or property records) will not be deleted under DROP.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Where will the data be deleted from?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, “All current and future data brokers who register with CalPrivacy are included in your deletion request.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can check out \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/data_broker_registry/\">the list of over 600 active data brokers on the DROP website\u003c/a>, and even directly opt in for the ones you actually wish to be listed on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The DROP website also allows you to look at these data brokers individually and see what kind of data they’re gathering, like reproductive health information and biometric data. In some cases, you can also see where your data is being sold to, like developers of generative AI — or the federal government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonprofit groups like charities may have your information, Kemp explained. But these are \u003cem>not \u003c/em>required to be part of the registry of data brokers, which are for-profit companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The registry doesn’t just include data brokers based in California; it applies to companies out of state as well, said Kemp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As long as there’s a company that has a lot of Californians’ data that they collect and sell and they don’t have that direct relationship, they have to register,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind: \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">According to the state website\u003c/a>, deleting your information could lead to a less personalized web experience, like targeted ads.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>How long will it take for the data to be deleted?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After you apply for DROP, you’ll then have \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">a personal DROP profile online \u003c/a>— which you can periodically check for updates on your digital privacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now that the deletion process has started, you’ll likely begin to see updates from brokers to your requests on your DROP profile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">possible status updates\u003c/a> are:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Deleted: \u003c/strong>Your data is deleted and will not be sold.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Exempted: \u003c/strong>Your data is allowed to be kept because it is exempted by the privacy law, such as a court or public record.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Opted-out: \u003c/strong>Data brokers couldn’t find the exact information you input.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Record not found: \u003c/strong>Data brokers could not find the information at \u003cem>all\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Pending: \u003c/strong>Your deletion request is still being processed.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>You may need to \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">provide more information\u003c/a> or take extra steps if data brokers are unable to fulfill your request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data brokers are \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">required to delete information every 45 days\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">take up to 90 days to give an update\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kemp said that the state does plan to “vigorously enforce this” and, “if a data broker is not properly doing the deletions, or ignoring the deletions, the fines are $200 per day per record.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "phone-text-scams-california-irs-bank-cdph-emergency-call-how-to-spot-fake-job-offer",
"title": "Have You Been Hit With One of These Bay Area Phone Scams? How to Spot the Red Flags",
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"headTitle": "Have You Been Hit With One of These Bay Area Phone Scams? How to Spot the Red Flags | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>If you’ve had the nagging feeling that scam calls and messages have gotten worse over the last few years, you’re actually correct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Americans reported losing a total of $3.5 billion to imposter scams in 2025, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">June data\u003c/a> announced by the Federal Trade Commission this summer — nearly three times the amount reported in 2020. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Imposter scams and other types of fraud through social media, email and other platforms have become a ubiquitous issue impacting people across the country. According to \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/poll-scams-law-enforcement-social-media-389f8d824b89fa434c297729f2aaf56d\">a poll and investigation\u003c/a> by the \u003cem>Associated Press\u003c/em> and the University of Chicago, almost every American has been \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/scams-online-scams-ai-internet-safety-phishing-fraud-34517de3546d604e20c9d78d3dc5af4f\">“targeted by scammers in some way.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It can happen to anyone,” said Alma Galvan, the San Francisco Bay Area communications director for the Better Business Bureau, a nonprofit that supports consumers and businesses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t matter your education level,” she said. “It doesn’t matter what you look like. Scammers will target anyone.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098963\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Phone and text scams are getting more sophisticated. Americans reported losing a total of $3.5 billion to imposter scams in 2025, according to June data announced by the Federal Trade Commission this summer. (Matthias Balk/Picture Alliance via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And while scams take all forms — \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/sf-better-business-bureau-warns-customers-of-cat-22413539.php\">pretending to be local San Francisco businesses\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/article/news-releases/34935-bbb-scam-alert-dont-be-fooled-by-free-gas-and-grocery-card-postcards\">fake gas gift cards\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095536/after-the-18000-scam-how-can-bay-area-renters-protect-themselves\">rent schemes\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-know-about-romance-scams\">catfishing\u003c/a> and even impersonating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">KQED \u003cem>Forum \u003c/em>host Mina Kim\u003c/a> — the ones that fall directly into your lap are usually through phone calls and text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is compounded by the fact that your phone’s caller ID capabilities may not always flag a spam call — and scammers can find a way to make it appear as if they are calling from \u003ca href=\"https://www.calwater.com/help/protecting-yourself-against-utility-scams/\">a verified organization or agency\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, the problem has become \u003cem>so\u003c/em> widespread that California now has its own \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069507/sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers\">“Delete Request and Opt-out Platform” (DROP) form\u003c/a>, which allows residents to scrub their info from data brokers — a major way scammers obtain your contact information — in order to lessen the amount of scam calls and texts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While a scam may feel obvious in hindsight, it can be hard to think calmly in the heat of the moment, especially since scammers often fake emergencies or apply pressure to spur people to act in panic. And the ability of scammers to persuade and convince their targets has only gotten worse with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">the rise of generative AI.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One silver lining: Scams often follow the same kinds of patterns and playbooks — and knowing about them could help you and your family learn to detect a scam even faster.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Read on to learn about common forms of phone- and text-based scams in the Bay Area and California, as well as the red flags to look out for if you do receive a potentially enticing message. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Task scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most common scams in the Bay Area have been “task scams,” Galvan said: when someone receives an offer — often through text — to do seemingly simple, repetitive actions online, such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/all/scamstudies/jobscams/employment-scams-2026-update\">liking YouTube videos\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There are so many different versions of this scam, and it doesn’t target one individual,” she said, explaining that the age range of people impacted by the scam varies from early 20s to late 60s. “It attracts consumers that are looking for a job.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The kind of job being offered promises “flexible hours, the ability to work from home, super high earnings — and you only have to work an hour and a half a day, and you make $500, with the option of making extra money if you decide to work over the weekend,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes these scammers will even provide some initial payment to build some trust. But these so-called opportunities can lead to major consequences. One person reported to the BBB lost $17,000 after buying equipment to work from home, she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The scammers “instructed him to purchase gift cards to pay for the equipment,” saying it was for “security measures and protocol that the company had,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A major red flag, Galvan said, is recognizing when the salary may be too high for the task. People should also never pay to apply for a job. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Don’t let anyone deposit money into your personal bank account if you haven’t had a job interview or received an offer letter, she said. You should also never make any suggested purchases with gift cards or cryptocurrency, especially since the latter is “not regulated by the government,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: A job offer with aspects — high salary, flexibility, simplicity — that seem too good to be true, a demand to purchase equipment or pay to apply\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Employment scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In another employment-based scam, targets will receive a fake job offer — purporting to be from a legitimate business in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A person may get a text message, a DM through social media or a platform like WhatsApp and Telegram offering a position related to their field, “but then the salary is just above average for the job itself,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said that people should go to the company’s website and verify if the position is indeed real — and even try calling the company to also verify the job listing and the identity of the person conducting the interview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-instagram wp-block-embed-instagram\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.instagram.com/reel/Dc9KDXSDP26/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&stkn=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keep in mind: Anyone can create a website, but a way to look into who is \u003cem>running \u003c/em>a website is by visiting \u003ca href=\"https://www.whois.com/\">Whois.com\u003c/a>. If the website is public, you’ll be able to see who created it, when it was created and when the domain expired. For example, if the website was created just a few days ago and is offering several jobs, it may not be a legitimate business, Galvan said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While you should insist on a formal interview by phone or video, generative AI has unfortunately been a major tool in these scams, allowing fraudsters to produce voices and videos to mimic recruiters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It might feel incredibly discouraging to make sure everyone you are talking to is real — something KQED’s internet \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/reel/Dc9KDXSDP26/\">podcast Close All Tabs\u003c/a> even touches on in an episode about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086839/how-to-prove-youre-not-ai\">how difficult it is to prove \u003cem>you \u003c/em>are not AI\u003c/a>. But that’s why doing the research beforehand is vital, Galvan said, “to make sure that you’re actually talking to a real person.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: High salaries, well-known companies, a job website that was only recently created, a suspicious video interview\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Bank scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">the FTC\u003c/a>, the most costly type of impersonation scams come from a fake security alert, often from someone purporting to represent your real bank.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People are convinced to move money to “protect” it, with their losses often limited only by their available funds,” per \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">the FTC\u003c/a>. Callers may also ask for a person’s card number, a PIN or the last four digits of their Social Security number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1187\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM.jpg\" alt=\"A woman walks past a Wells Fargo ATM in Pasadena on September 28, 2016. California Treasurer John Chiang said the state will suspend several banking relationships with Wells Fargo to sanction the firm following allegations of 'fleecing its customers.'\" class=\"wp-image-11108212\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM-400x247.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM-800x495.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM-1180x730.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM-960x594.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A woman walks past a Wells Fargo ATM in Pasadena. (Frederic J Brown/AFP-Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Galvan said here it’s good to have a connection with your local bank and make sure you know if you’ve even opted in to receive text messages from them — because otherwise, getting out-of-the-blue texts from your bank should raise your suspicions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After hanging up, she said people should be sure to call the number on the back of your bank card, as opposed to the first result on a Google search, since a scammer could potentially buy an ad and place a fraudulent phone number. Don’t call any numbers you’re given in a message purporting to be from your bank either, as these may be scam numbers too. Only through this official phone number to your bank can you confirm if the message you got was valid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s up to us to do that little extra step,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: Unexpected texts from your bank, requests for personal information, including your PIN\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">IRS scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What is more stressful than a call from the bank? A call from the Internal Revenue Service, which handles taxes in the United States. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The IRS has a page dedicated to \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/tax-scams/recognize-tax-scams-and-fraud\">the common reasons\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/dirty-dozen-tax-scams-for-2026-irs-reminds-taxpayers-to-watch-out-for-dangerous-threats\">impersonators use\u003c/a> when contacting unsuspecting targets, including W-2 form fraud and unclaimed tax refunds. Some people have also received fake calls about apparent back taxes owed, with the scammer claiming to be from the IRS or \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/tax-season-phone-scams-and-taxpayer-id-theft\">“Tax Resolution Oversight Department.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12035739\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) building in Washington, D.C. (Zach Gibson/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But you should know: The IRS primarily contacts people through letters the first time — which \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/individuals/understanding-your-irs-notice-or-letter\">you can verify online or by calling the IRS’s hotline at 800-829-1040\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keep in mind — like your bank, the IRS only \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/how-to-know-its-the-irs\">texts\u003c/a> you when you opt in to receive those texts. According to the agency, there \u003cem>are \u003c/em>some cases where they use automated phone messages, but these calls will “direct you to IRS.gov to securely manage your account, make payments or resolve an issue,” \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/how-to-know-its-the-irs\">the IRS website read\u003c/a>. “The messages don’t share specific details.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/tax-season-phone-scams-and-taxpayer-id-theft\">the FCC\u003c/a>, people should never give personal details over the phone like PINs, passwords and credit card information. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you receive a call from someone claiming to be with the IRS, ask for a reference number. Then the person should hang up and call the IRS again, but only using one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/let-us-help-you\">the official IRS phone numbers\u003c/a> listed on its government website, to see if the call was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: Unexpected texts from the IRS, attempts to panic you with talk of “back taxes” owed or similar, a live caller wanting financial information including your PIN\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Emergency call scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This particularly alarming type of scam has continued to \u003ca href=\"https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/grandparent/\">grab headlines\u003c/a> for the past few years: Someone impersonating a loved one in text messages or even a phone call, desperately asking a parent or a grandparent to wire them money due to some emergency.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A common example is the young person — usually college-aged — saying they’re traveling for vacation (for example, for spring break) and getting arrested at the U.S.-Mexico border, Galvan said. And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/consumers/artificial-intelligence-scam-tips.page\">AI has only made it easier\u003c/a> for scammers to impersonate someone’s voice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It sounds like the person,” she said. “It sounds legitimate.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098969\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">“It doesn’t matter your education level. It doesn’t matter what you look like. Scammers will target anyone,” said Alma Galvan, the San Francisco Bay Area communications director for the Better Business Bureau. (Edward Berthelot/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Galvan suggested families have a code word that the scammer wouldn’t be able to guess. If the person over the phone is able to provide the code word, then the person knows it’s potentially real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A key part of this scam’s playbook: creating a sense of emergency with the need to send money immediately. The Federal Communications Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/grandparent-scams-get-more-sophisticated\">recommended that the person\u003c/a> receiving the call should, after hanging up, try calling the intended person using the number saved in their contacts to see if they truly were the one on the call.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: A dramatic, panic-inducing story of some emergency, an urgent request for money (for example, to post bail), the person using an unrecognized number \u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Mail delivery scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A common way this plays out: You receive a text alert from an unknown number prompting you to click a link — because “your” package from a company like USPS, Amazon or FedEx has been misplaced or needs a pick-up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve all transitioned into buying things online,” Galvan said. Because of this, she said it’s key to remember “what you’re ordering, where it’s coming from and who’s going to deliver it for you.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When receiving these texts, she said to be wary of \u003ca href=\"https://www.du.edu/it/services/security/5-url-warning-signs\">suspicious links in the text\u003c/a> — for example, links that were generated by URL-shortening websites like \u003ca href=\"http://bit.ly\">bit.ly\u003c/a>, which can be used to mask the true online destination. These links may be seeking personal information input from you — or even be malicious software.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098971\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A United States Postal Service (USPS) delivery van is parked on a street in Salt Lake City, Utah, on Aug. 21, 2026. (Charles-McClintock Wilson/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Keep in mind that if you don’t have \u003ca href=\"https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/news/recognizing-and-avoiding-spyware\">spyware\u003c/a> [protection], it just takes one click for you to get a virus on your computer. Same thing with your phone,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Phones tend to have protection come with them, she said, but it’s important to make sure that your software — like an iPhone’s iOS — is up-to-date. For more tips, KQED has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">a thorough guide on digital hygiene and security\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Admittedly, when it comes to packages and deliveries, it can be hard to know what is a scam text and what is a simple text alert that you signed up for. But California has \u003ca href=\"https://www.business.com/articles/text-message-laws/\">laws\u003c/a> that require people to opt in to receive various forms of text messages. So if you don’t remember signing up for text alerts, that could be a potential red flag. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: “Delivery updates” you weren’t expecting, being urged to click a link\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other common phone and text scams in the Bay Area\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, these scams are just the tip of the iceberg of the type of texts and calls a person can receive. Luckily, there are major tools online to help you look up past scams and see if they match a call, text or business you’re suspicious about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The BBB has a thorough \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/scamtracker/lookupscam\">Scam Tracker\u003c/a> database with a list of scams reported by consumers, complete with descriptions of who they were reached by, who they thought they were talking to and even how much they lost. The American Association of Retired Persons also has \u003ca href=\"https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/tracking-map/\">a scam map.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other scams may involve people impersonating:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The California Department of Public Health\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The state’s health agency warns that scammers are calling to ask for financial and sensitive information, pretending to represent CDPH. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/contact_us.aspx\">According to the agency\u003c/a>, legitimate calls focus on public health matters like disease contact tracing. They “will never involve requests for sensitive financial or non-health-related information, such as someone’s Social Security number or credit card details,” CDPH said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1438\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-e1549984154270.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11725572\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A man walks past a PG&E sign. (Jeff Chiu/AP)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Utility agencies\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>West Sacramento sent out a warning early this year about \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/CityofWestSacramento/posts/a-postcard-claiming-to-be-a-public-utility-notice-from-a-private-entity-called-c/1326817099482868/\">a postcard falsely requiring residents to enroll in a “program\u003c/a>” that would allow them to receive funds for utility upgrades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other utility scams may call to ask people to pay their bills by using \u003ca href=\"https://www.santaclaraca.gov/Home/Components/News/News/45479/\">a prepaid credit card, gift card, or third-party payment app\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re unsure about your utility account, be sure to call your county’s services division or PG&E directly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A radio or TV opportunity\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Creatives are being increasingly targeted by scammers posing as the hosts of radio or TV shows, offering them the chance to talk about their work on-air — as soon as they make some kind of donation or payment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Authors have even received messages pretending to be \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">KQED Forum host Mina Kim\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>inviting them on our call-in show to talk about their book (for $200). \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED will never charge people to be on \u003cem>Forum,\u003c/em> and producers are the ones who directly connect with authors and publishers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">So you got scammed. Now what?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Report it ASAP\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You may feel overwhelmed or even embarrassed after realizing that you fell into a scam, Galvan said — and that’s natural. However, she said that \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/scamtracker/reportscam\">reporting it to places like the BBB\u003c/a> offers the chance to help people around you avoid the same scam by making the information public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We want to make it as universal as possible and as easy-to-use tool for the public, so that we can alert the consumers about what’s happening in our area and then hopefully get them to be looked into by law enforcement or by government,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12069528\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Many agencies also provide the next steps to take after facing a scam, whether it includes personal identity theft, a loss of funds or compromised accounts. (Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, the BBB is a nonprofit, and they don’t have the “power to shut down anyone,” Galvan said. Nonetheless, the group works closely with local government agencies, which \u003cem>can \u003c/em>then investigate the company and the scam.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And since \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052217/immigration-lawyers-bay-area-common-scams-notario-fraud\">immigration-based scams\u003c/a> have also become common, she said that the BBB is not a government agency and does not verify the residency status of anyone reporting this kind of scam. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People can also report potential scams to other sites and organizations including:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115002234203-Unwanted-Calls-Texts-Phone\">The FCC: Unwanted Calls/Texts\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Local authorities like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090715/outside-lands-ticket-pass-friday-saturday-sunday-lineup-resale-scams-2026\">the police\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company\">California Attorney General’s office\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>The organization that is being impersonated (for example, the IRS has \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/report-fraud/report-fake-irs-treasury-or-tax-related-emails-and-messages\">a guide on how to contact the agency\u003c/a> if you run into an IRS-based scam — national agencies can be \u003ca href=\"https://www.usa.gov/agency-index\">found on the federal government’s website\u003c/a>, or find a state-based agency on \u003ca href=\"https://cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/fraud/subprograms-and-info\">the California Department of Social Services website\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pge.com/en/account/customer-service/scams.html\">PG&E Scams\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/\">FTC’s Report Fraud website\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ic3.gov/\">Internet Crime Complaint Center\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Seek support\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many agencies also provide the next steps to take after facing a scam, whether it includes personal identity theft, a loss of funds or compromised accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some resources include:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/tax-scams/if-you-were-scammed\">IRS: If You Were Scammed\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/consumers\">California Attorney General’s page on consumer protection\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/idtheft/facts/how-to-registry\">California Identity Theft Registry\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-do-if-you-were-scammed\">FTC Consumer Advice\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://scamsurvivaltoolkit.bbbmarketplacetrust.org/\">BBB Scam Survival Toolkit\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/all/scam-prevention\">BBB Scam Prevention Guide\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you’ve had the nagging feeling that scam calls and messages have gotten worse over the last few years, you’re actually correct.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Americans reported losing a total of $3.5 billion to imposter scams in 2025, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">June data\u003c/a> announced by the Federal Trade Commission this summer — nearly three times the amount reported in 2020. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Americans reported losing a total of $3.5 billion to imposter scams in 2025, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">June data\u003c/a> announced by the Federal Trade Commission this summer — nearly three times the amount reported in 2020. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Imposter scams and other types of fraud through social media, email and other platforms have become a ubiquitous issue impacting people across the country. According to \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/poll-scams-law-enforcement-social-media-389f8d824b89fa434c297729f2aaf56d\">a poll and investigation\u003c/a> by the \u003cem>Associated Press\u003c/em> and the University of Chicago, almost every American has been \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/scams-online-scams-ai-internet-safety-phishing-fraud-34517de3546d604e20c9d78d3dc5af4f\">“targeted by scammers in some way.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Imposter scams and other types of fraud through social media, email and other platforms have become a ubiquitous issue impacting people across the country. According to \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/poll-scams-law-enforcement-social-media-389f8d824b89fa434c297729f2aaf56d\">a poll and investigation\u003c/a> by the \u003cem>Associated Press\u003c/em> and the University of Chicago, almost every American has been \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/scams-online-scams-ai-internet-safety-phishing-fraud-34517de3546d604e20c9d78d3dc5af4f\">“targeted by scammers in some way.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It can happen to anyone,” said Alma Galvan, the San Francisco Bay Area communications director for the Better Business Bureau, a nonprofit that supports consumers and businesses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It can happen to anyone,” said Alma Galvan, the San Francisco Bay Area communications director for the Better Business Bureau, a nonprofit that supports consumers and businesses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t matter your education level,” she said. “It doesn’t matter what you look like. Scammers will target anyone.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t matter your education level,” she said. “It doesn’t matter what you look like. Scammers will target anyone.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098963\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Phone and text scams are getting more sophisticated. Americans reported losing a total of $3.5 billion to imposter scams in 2025, according to June data announced by the Federal Trade Commission this summer.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Matthias Balk/Picture Alliance via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098963\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Phone and text scams are getting more sophisticated. Americans reported losing a total of $3.5 billion to imposter scams in 2025, according to June data announced by the Federal Trade Commission this summer.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Matthias Balk/Picture Alliance via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And while scams take all forms — \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/sf-better-business-bureau-warns-customers-of-cat-22413539.php\">pretending to be local San Francisco businesses\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/article/news-releases/34935-bbb-scam-alert-dont-be-fooled-by-free-gas-and-grocery-card-postcards\">fake gas gift cards\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095536/after-the-18000-scam-how-can-bay-area-renters-protect-themselves\">rent schemes\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-know-about-romance-scams\">catfishing\u003c/a> and even impersonating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">KQED \u003cem>Forum \u003c/em>host Mina Kim\u003c/a> — the ones that fall directly into your lap are usually through phone calls and text messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And while scams take all forms — \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/sf-better-business-bureau-warns-customers-of-cat-22413539.php\">pretending to be local San Francisco businesses\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/article/news-releases/34935-bbb-scam-alert-dont-be-fooled-by-free-gas-and-grocery-card-postcards\">fake gas gift cards\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095536/after-the-18000-scam-how-can-bay-area-renters-protect-themselves\">rent schemes\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-know-about-romance-scams\">catfishing\u003c/a> and even impersonating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">KQED \u003cem>Forum \u003c/em>host Mina Kim\u003c/a> — the ones that fall directly into your lap are usually through phone calls and text messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is compounded by the fact that your phone’s caller ID capabilities may not always flag a spam call — and scammers can find a way to make it appear as if they are calling from \u003ca href=\"https://www.calwater.com/help/protecting-yourself-against-utility-scams/\">a verified organization or agency\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is compounded by the fact that your phone’s caller ID capabilities may not always flag a spam call — and scammers can find a way to make it appear as if they are calling from \u003ca href=\"https://www.calwater.com/help/protecting-yourself-against-utility-scams/\">a verified organization or agency\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In fact, the problem has become \u003cem>so\u003c/em> widespread that California now has its own \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069507/sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers\">“Delete Request and Opt-out Platform” (DROP) form\u003c/a>, which allows residents to scrub their info from data brokers — a major way scammers obtain your contact information — in order to lessen the amount of scam calls and texts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In fact, the problem has become \u003cem>so\u003c/em> widespread that California now has its own \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069507/sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers\">“Delete Request and Opt-out Platform” (DROP) form\u003c/a>, which allows residents to scrub their info from data brokers — a major way scammers obtain your contact information — in order to lessen the amount of scam calls and texts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While a scam may feel obvious in hindsight, it can be hard to think calmly in the heat of the moment, especially since scammers often fake emergencies or apply pressure to spur people to act in panic. And the ability of scammers to persuade and convince their targets has only gotten worse with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">the rise of generative AI.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While a scam may feel obvious in hindsight, it can be hard to think calmly in the heat of the moment, especially since scammers often fake emergencies or apply pressure to spur people to act in panic. And the ability of scammers to persuade and convince their targets has only gotten worse with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">the rise of generative AI.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One silver lining: Scams often follow the same kinds of patterns and playbooks — and knowing about them could help you and your family learn to detect a scam even faster.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One silver lining: Scams often follow the same kinds of patterns and playbooks — and knowing about them could help you and your family learn to detect a scam even faster.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Read on to learn about common forms of phone- and text-based scams in the Bay Area and California, as well as the red flags to look out for if you do receive a potentially enticing message. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Read on to learn about common forms of phone- and text-based scams in the Bay Area and California, as well as the red flags to look out for if you do receive a potentially enticing message. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Task scams\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The most common scams in the Bay Area have been “task scams,” Galvan said: when someone receives an offer — often through text — to do seemingly simple, repetitive actions online, such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/all/scamstudies/jobscams/employment-scams-2026-update\">liking YouTube videos\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The most common scams in the Bay Area have been “task scams,” Galvan said: when someone receives an offer — often through text — to do seemingly simple, repetitive actions online, such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/all/scamstudies/jobscams/employment-scams-2026-update\">liking YouTube videos\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There are so many different versions of this scam, and it doesn’t target one individual,” she said, explaining that the age range of people impacted by the scam varies from early 20s to late 60s. “It attracts consumers that are looking for a job.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“There are so many different versions of this scam, and it doesn’t target one individual,” she said, explaining that the age range of people impacted by the scam varies from early 20s to late 60s. “It attracts consumers that are looking for a job.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The kind of job being offered promises “flexible hours, the ability to work from home, super high earnings — and you only have to work an hour and a half a day, and you make $500, with the option of making extra money if you decide to work over the weekend,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The kind of job being offered promises “flexible hours, the ability to work from home, super high earnings — and you only have to work an hour and a half a day, and you make $500, with the option of making extra money if you decide to work over the weekend,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sometimes these scammers will even provide some initial payment to build some trust. But these so-called opportunities can lead to major consequences. One person reported to the BBB lost $17,000 after buying equipment to work from home, she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sometimes these scammers will even provide some initial payment to build some trust. But these so-called opportunities can lead to major consequences. One person reported to the BBB lost $17,000 after buying equipment to work from home, she said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A major red flag, Galvan said, is recognizing when the salary may be too high for the task. People should also never pay to apply for a job. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Don’t let anyone deposit money into your personal bank account if you haven’t had a job interview or received an offer letter, she said. You should also never make any suggested purchases with gift cards or cryptocurrency, especially since the latter is “not regulated by the government,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"text": "The red flags: A job offer with aspects — high salary, flexibility, simplicity — that seem too good to be true, a demand to purchase equipment or pay to apply"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: A job offer with aspects — high salary, flexibility, simplicity — that seem too good to be true, a demand to purchase equipment or pay to apply\u003c/h3>\n",
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"text": "Employment scams",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In another employment-based scam, targets will receive a fake job offer — purporting to be from a legitimate business in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A person may get a text message, a DM through social media or a platform like WhatsApp and Telegram offering a position related to their field, “but then the salary is just above average for the job itself,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She said that people should go to the company’s website and verify if the position is indeed real — and even try calling the company to also verify the job listing and the identity of the person conducting the interview.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She said that people should go to the company’s website and verify if the position is indeed real — and even try calling the company to also verify the job listing and the identity of the person conducting the interview.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Keep in mind: Anyone can create a website, but a way to look into who is \u003cem>running \u003c/em>a website is by visiting \u003ca href=\"https://www.whois.com/\">Whois.com\u003c/a>. If the website is public, you’ll be able to see who created it, when it was created and when the domain expired. For example, if the website was created just a few days ago and is offering several jobs, it may not be a legitimate business, Galvan said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While you should insist on a formal interview by phone or video, generative AI has unfortunately been a major tool in these scams, allowing fraudsters to produce voices and videos to mimic recruiters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It might feel incredibly discouraging to make sure everyone you are talking to is real — something KQED’s internet \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/reel/Dc9KDXSDP26/\">podcast Close All Tabs\u003c/a> even touches on in an episode about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086839/how-to-prove-youre-not-ai\">how difficult it is to prove \u003cem>you \u003c/em>are not AI\u003c/a>. But that’s why doing the research beforehand is vital, Galvan said, “to make sure that you’re actually talking to a real person.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It might feel incredibly discouraging to make sure everyone you are talking to is real — something KQED’s internet \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/reel/Dc9KDXSDP26/\">podcast Close All Tabs\u003c/a> even touches on in an episode about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086839/how-to-prove-youre-not-ai\">how difficult it is to prove \u003cem>you \u003c/em>are not AI\u003c/a>. But that’s why doing the research beforehand is vital, Galvan said, “to make sure that you’re actually talking to a real person.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
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"text": "The red flags: High salaries, well-known companies, a job website that was only recently created, a suspicious video interview"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: High salaries, well-known companies, a job website that was only recently created, a suspicious video interview\u003c/h3>\n",
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"attrs": {
"text": "Bank scams",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Bank scams\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">the FTC\u003c/a>, the most costly type of impersonation scams come from a fake security alert, often from someone purporting to represent your real bank.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">the FTC\u003c/a>, the most costly type of impersonation scams come from a fake security alert, often from someone purporting to represent your real bank.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“People are convinced to move money to “protect” it, with their losses often limited only by their available funds,” per \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">the FTC\u003c/a>. Callers may also ask for a person’s card number, a PIN or the last four digits of their Social Security number.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“People are convinced to move money to “protect” it, with their losses often limited only by their available funds,” per \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">the FTC\u003c/a>. Callers may also ask for a person’s card number, a PIN or the last four digits of their Social Security number.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Galvan said here it’s good to have a connection with your local bank and make sure you know if you’ve even opted in to receive text messages from them — because otherwise, getting out-of-the-blue texts from your bank should raise your suspicions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After hanging up, she said people should be sure to call the number on the back of your bank card, as opposed to the first result on a Google search, since a scammer could potentially buy an ad and place a fraudulent phone number. Don’t call any numbers you’re given in a message purporting to be from your bank either, as these may be scam numbers too. Only through this official phone number to your bank can you confirm if the message you got was valid.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s up to us to do that little extra step,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s up to us to do that little extra step,” she said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "The red flags: Unexpected texts from your bank, requests for personal information, including your PIN"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: Unexpected texts from your bank, requests for personal information, including your PIN\u003c/h3>\n",
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "IRS scams",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">IRS scams\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What is more stressful than a call from the bank? A call from the Internal Revenue Service, which handles taxes in the United States. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>What is more stressful than a call from the bank? A call from the Internal Revenue Service, which handles taxes in the United States. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The IRS has a page dedicated to \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/tax-scams/recognize-tax-scams-and-fraud\">the common reasons\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/dirty-dozen-tax-scams-for-2026-irs-reminds-taxpayers-to-watch-out-for-dangerous-threats\">impersonators use\u003c/a> when contacting unsuspecting targets, including W-2 form fraud and unclaimed tax refunds. Some people have also received fake calls about apparent back taxes owed, with the scammer claiming to be from the IRS or \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/tax-season-phone-scams-and-taxpayer-id-theft\">“Tax Resolution Oversight Department.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The IRS has a page dedicated to \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/tax-scams/recognize-tax-scams-and-fraud\">the common reasons\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/dirty-dozen-tax-scams-for-2026-irs-reminds-taxpayers-to-watch-out-for-dangerous-threats\">impersonators use\u003c/a> when contacting unsuspecting targets, including W-2 form fraud and unclaimed tax refunds. Some people have also received fake calls about apparent back taxes owed, with the scammer claiming to be from the IRS or \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/tax-season-phone-scams-and-taxpayer-id-theft\">“Tax Resolution Oversight Department.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12035739\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) building in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Zach Gibson/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12035739\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) building in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Zach Gibson/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But you should know: The IRS primarily contacts people through letters the first time — which \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/individuals/understanding-your-irs-notice-or-letter\">you can verify online or by calling the IRS’s hotline at 800-829-1040\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But you should know: The IRS primarily contacts people through letters the first time — which \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/individuals/understanding-your-irs-notice-or-letter\">you can verify online or by calling the IRS’s hotline at 800-829-1040\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Keep in mind — like your bank, the IRS only \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/how-to-know-its-the-irs\">texts\u003c/a> you when you opt in to receive those texts. According to the agency, there \u003cem>are \u003c/em>some cases where they use automated phone messages, but these calls will “direct you to IRS.gov to securely manage your account, make payments or resolve an issue,” \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/how-to-know-its-the-irs\">the IRS website read\u003c/a>. “The messages don’t share specific details.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Keep in mind — like your bank, the IRS only \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/how-to-know-its-the-irs\">texts\u003c/a> you when you opt in to receive those texts. According to the agency, there \u003cem>are \u003c/em>some cases where they use automated phone messages, but these calls will “direct you to IRS.gov to securely manage your account, make payments or resolve an issue,” \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/how-to-know-its-the-irs\">the IRS website read\u003c/a>. “The messages don’t share specific details.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/tax-season-phone-scams-and-taxpayer-id-theft\">the FCC\u003c/a>, people should never give personal details over the phone like PINs, passwords and credit card information. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/tax-season-phone-scams-and-taxpayer-id-theft\">the FCC\u003c/a>, people should never give personal details over the phone like PINs, passwords and credit card information. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you receive a call from someone claiming to be with the IRS, ask for a reference number. Then the person should hang up and call the IRS again, but only using one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/let-us-help-you\">the official IRS phone numbers\u003c/a> listed on its government website, to see if the call was real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you receive a call from someone claiming to be with the IRS, ask for a reference number. Then the person should hang up and call the IRS again, but only using one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/let-us-help-you\">the official IRS phone numbers\u003c/a> listed on its government website, to see if the call was real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"level": 3,
"text": "The red flags: Unexpected texts from the IRS, attempts to panic you with talk of “back taxes” owed or similar, a live caller wanting financial information including your PIN"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: Unexpected texts from the IRS, attempts to panic you with talk of “back taxes” owed or similar, a live caller wanting financial information including your PIN\u003c/h3>\n",
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"\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: Unexpected texts from the IRS, attempts to panic you with talk of “back taxes” owed or similar, a live caller wanting financial information including your PIN\u003c/h3>\n"
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{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Emergency call scams",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Emergency call scams\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Emergency call scams\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This particularly alarming type of scam has continued to \u003ca href=\"https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/grandparent/\">grab headlines\u003c/a> for the past few years: Someone impersonating a loved one in text messages or even a phone call, desperately asking a parent or a grandparent to wire them money due to some emergency.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This particularly alarming type of scam has continued to \u003ca href=\"https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/grandparent/\">grab headlines\u003c/a> for the past few years: Someone impersonating a loved one in text messages or even a phone call, desperately asking a parent or a grandparent to wire them money due to some emergency.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A common example is the young person — usually college-aged — saying they’re traveling for vacation (for example, for spring break) and getting arrested at the U.S.-Mexico border, Galvan said. And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/consumers/artificial-intelligence-scam-tips.page\">AI has only made it easier\u003c/a> for scammers to impersonate someone’s voice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A common example is the young person — usually college-aged — saying they’re traveling for vacation (for example, for spring break) and getting arrested at the U.S.-Mexico border, Galvan said. And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/consumers/artificial-intelligence-scam-tips.page\">AI has only made it easier\u003c/a> for scammers to impersonate someone’s voice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It sounds like the person,” she said. “It sounds legitimate.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“It sounds like the person,” she said. “It sounds legitimate.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098969\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">“It doesn’t matter your education level. It doesn’t matter what you look like. Scammers will target anyone,” said Alma Galvan, the San Francisco Bay Area communications director for the Better Business Bureau.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Edward Berthelot/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098969\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">“It doesn’t matter your education level. It doesn’t matter what you look like. Scammers will target anyone,” said Alma Galvan, the San Francisco Bay Area communications director for the Better Business Bureau.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Edward Berthelot/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Galvan suggested families have a code word that the scammer wouldn’t be able to guess. If the person over the phone is able to provide the code word, then the person knows it’s potentially real.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Galvan suggested families have a code word that the scammer wouldn’t be able to guess. If the person over the phone is able to provide the code word, then the person knows it’s potentially real.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A key part of this scam’s playbook: creating a sense of emergency with the need to send money immediately. The Federal Communications Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/grandparent-scams-get-more-sophisticated\">recommended that the person\u003c/a> receiving the call should, after hanging up, try calling the intended person using the number saved in their contacts to see if they truly were the one on the call.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>A key part of this scam’s playbook: creating a sense of emergency with the need to send money immediately. The Federal Communications Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/grandparent-scams-get-more-sophisticated\">recommended that the person\u003c/a> receiving the call should, after hanging up, try calling the intended person using the number saved in their contacts to see if they truly were the one on the call.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"level": 3,
"text": "The red flags: A dramatic, panic-inducing story of some emergency, an urgent request for money (for example, to post bail), the person using an unrecognized number "
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: A dramatic, panic-inducing story of some emergency, an urgent request for money (for example, to post bail), the person using an unrecognized number \u003c/h3>\n",
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"\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: A dramatic, panic-inducing story of some emergency, an urgent request for money (for example, to post bail), the person using an unrecognized number \u003c/h3>\n"
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{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Mail delivery scams",
"level": 2
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Mail delivery scams\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Mail delivery scams\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A common way this plays out: You receive a text alert from an unknown number prompting you to click a link — because “your” package from a company like USPS, Amazon or FedEx has been misplaced or needs a pick-up. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>A common way this plays out: You receive a text alert from an unknown number prompting you to click a link — because “your” package from a company like USPS, Amazon or FedEx has been misplaced or needs a pick-up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’ve all transitioned into buying things online,” Galvan said. Because of this, she said it’s key to remember “what you’re ordering, where it’s coming from and who’s going to deliver it for you.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We’ve all transitioned into buying things online,” Galvan said. Because of this, she said it’s key to remember “what you’re ordering, where it’s coming from and who’s going to deliver it for you.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When receiving these texts, she said to be wary of \u003ca href=\"https://www.du.edu/it/services/security/5-url-warning-signs\">suspicious links in the text\u003c/a> — for example, links that were generated by URL-shortening websites like \u003ca href=\"http://bit.ly\">bit.ly\u003c/a>, which can be used to mask the true online destination. These links may be seeking personal information input from you — or even be malicious software.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>When receiving these texts, she said to be wary of \u003ca href=\"https://www.du.edu/it/services/security/5-url-warning-signs\">suspicious links in the text\u003c/a> — for example, links that were generated by URL-shortening websites like \u003ca href=\"http://bit.ly\">bit.ly\u003c/a>, which can be used to mask the true online destination. These links may be seeking personal information input from you — or even be malicious software.\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098971\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A United States Postal Service (USPS) delivery van is parked on a street in Salt Lake City, Utah, on Aug. 21, 2026. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Charles-McClintock Wilson/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098971\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A United States Postal Service (USPS) delivery van is parked on a street in Salt Lake City, Utah, on Aug. 21, 2026. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Charles-McClintock Wilson/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Keep in mind that if you don’t have \u003ca href=\"https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/news/recognizing-and-avoiding-spyware\">spyware\u003c/a> [protection], it just takes one click for you to get a virus on your computer. Same thing with your phone,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Keep in mind that if you don’t have \u003ca href=\"https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/news/recognizing-and-avoiding-spyware\">spyware\u003c/a> [protection], it just takes one click for you to get a virus on your computer. Same thing with your phone,” she said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Phones tend to have protection come with them, she said, but it’s important to make sure that your software — like an iPhone’s iOS — is up-to-date. For more tips, KQED has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">a thorough guide on digital hygiene and security\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Phones tend to have protection come with them, she said, but it’s important to make sure that your software — like an iPhone’s iOS — is up-to-date. For more tips, KQED has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">a thorough guide on digital hygiene and security\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Admittedly, when it comes to packages and deliveries, it can be hard to know what is a scam text and what is a simple text alert that you signed up for. But California has \u003ca href=\"https://www.business.com/articles/text-message-laws/\">laws\u003c/a> that require people to opt in to receive various forms of text messages. So if you don’t remember signing up for text alerts, that could be a potential red flag. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Admittedly, when it comes to packages and deliveries, it can be hard to know what is a scam text and what is a simple text alert that you signed up for. But California has \u003ca href=\"https://www.business.com/articles/text-message-laws/\">laws\u003c/a> that require people to opt in to receive various forms of text messages. So if you don’t remember signing up for text alerts, that could be a potential red flag. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"level": 3,
"text": "The red flags: “Delivery updates” you weren’t expecting, being urged to click a link"
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: “Delivery updates” you weren’t expecting, being urged to click a link\u003c/h3>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: “Delivery updates” you weren’t expecting, being urged to click a link\u003c/h3>\n"
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"innerBlocks": []
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{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Other common phone and text scams in the Bay Area",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other common phone and text scams in the Bay Area\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other common phone and text scams in the Bay Area\u003c/h2>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, these scams are just the tip of the iceberg of the type of texts and calls a person can receive. Luckily, there are major tools online to help you look up past scams and see if they match a call, text or business you’re suspicious about. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, these scams are just the tip of the iceberg of the type of texts and calls a person can receive. Luckily, there are major tools online to help you look up past scams and see if they match a call, text or business you’re suspicious about. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerBlocks": []
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{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The BBB has a thorough \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/scamtracker/lookupscam\">Scam Tracker\u003c/a> database with a list of scams reported by consumers, complete with descriptions of who they were reached by, who they thought they were talking to and even how much they lost. The American Association of Retired Persons also has \u003ca href=\"https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/tracking-map/\">a scam map.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The BBB has a thorough \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/scamtracker/lookupscam\">Scam Tracker\u003c/a> database with a list of scams reported by consumers, complete with descriptions of who they were reached by, who they thought they were talking to and even how much they lost. The American Association of Retired Persons also has \u003ca href=\"https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/tracking-map/\">a scam map.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
],
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{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Other scams may involve people impersonating:\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Other scams may involve people impersonating:\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"level": 3,
"text": "The California Department of Public Health"
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The California Department of Public Health\u003c/h3>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The California Department of Public Health\u003c/h3>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
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{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The state’s health agency warns that scammers are calling to ask for financial and sensitive information, pretending to represent CDPH. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The state’s health agency warns that scammers are calling to ask for financial and sensitive information, pretending to represent CDPH. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/contact_us.aspx\">According to the agency\u003c/a>, legitimate calls focus on public health matters like disease contact tracing. They “will never involve requests for sensitive financial or non-health-related information, such as someone’s Social Security number or credit card details,” CDPH said.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/contact_us.aspx\">According to the agency\u003c/a>, legitimate calls focus on public health matters like disease contact tracing. They “will never involve requests for sensitive financial or non-health-related information, such as someone’s Social Security number or credit card details,” CDPH said.\u003c/p>\n"
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{
"blockName": "core/image",
"attrs": {
"id": 11725572,
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-e1549984154270.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11725572\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A man walks past a PG&E sign.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Jeff Chiu/AP)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-e1549984154270.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11725572\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A man walks past a PG&E sign.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Jeff Chiu/AP)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"level": 3,
"text": "Utility agencies "
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Utility agencies\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Utility agencies\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>West Sacramento sent out a warning early this year about \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/CityofWestSacramento/posts/a-postcard-claiming-to-be-a-public-utility-notice-from-a-private-entity-called-c/1326817099482868/\">a postcard falsely requiring residents to enroll in a “program\u003c/a>” that would allow them to receive funds for utility upgrades. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>West Sacramento sent out a warning early this year about \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/CityofWestSacramento/posts/a-postcard-claiming-to-be-a-public-utility-notice-from-a-private-entity-called-c/1326817099482868/\">a postcard falsely requiring residents to enroll in a “program\u003c/a>” that would allow them to receive funds for utility upgrades. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
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{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Other utility scams may call to ask people to pay their bills by using \u003ca href=\"https://www.santaclaraca.gov/Home/Components/News/News/45479/\">a prepaid credit card, gift card, or third-party payment app\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Other utility scams may call to ask people to pay their bills by using \u003ca href=\"https://www.santaclaraca.gov/Home/Components/News/News/45479/\">a prepaid credit card, gift card, or third-party payment app\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
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{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you’re unsure about your utility account, be sure to call your county’s services division or PG&E directly. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If you’re unsure about your utility account, be sure to call your county’s services division or PG&E directly. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"level": 3,
"text": "A radio or TV opportunity "
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A radio or TV opportunity\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A radio or TV opportunity\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Creatives are being increasingly targeted by scammers posing as the hosts of radio or TV shows, offering them the chance to talk about their work on-air — as soon as they make some kind of donation or payment. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Creatives are being increasingly targeted by scammers posing as the hosts of radio or TV shows, offering them the chance to talk about their work on-air — as soon as they make some kind of donation or payment. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Authors have even received messages pretending to be \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">KQED Forum host Mina Kim\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>inviting them on our call-in show to talk about their book (for $200). \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Authors have even received messages pretending to be \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">KQED Forum host Mina Kim\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>inviting them on our call-in show to talk about their book (for $200). \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED will never charge people to be on \u003cem>Forum,\u003c/em> and producers are the ones who directly connect with authors and publishers. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>KQED will never charge people to be on \u003cem>Forum,\u003c/em> and producers are the ones who directly connect with authors and publishers. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "So you got scammed. Now what?",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">So you got scammed. Now what?\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">So you got scammed. Now what?\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"level": 3,
"text": "Report it ASAP"
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Report it ASAP\u003c/h3>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Report it ASAP\u003c/h3>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You may feel overwhelmed or even embarrassed after realizing that you fell into a scam, Galvan said — and that’s natural. However, she said that \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/scamtracker/reportscam\">reporting it to places like the BBB\u003c/a> offers the chance to help people around you avoid the same scam by making the information public.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You may feel overwhelmed or even embarrassed after realizing that you fell into a scam, Galvan said — and that’s natural. However, she said that \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/scamtracker/reportscam\">reporting it to places like the BBB\u003c/a> offers the chance to help people around you avoid the same scam by making the information public.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We want to make it as universal as possible and as easy-to-use tool for the public, so that we can alert the consumers about what’s happening in our area and then hopefully get them to be looked into by law enforcement or by government,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“We want to make it as universal as possible and as easy-to-use tool for the public, so that we can alert the consumers about what’s happening in our area and then hopefully get them to be looked into by law enforcement or by government,” she said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12069528\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Many agencies also provide the next steps to take after facing a scam, whether it includes personal identity theft, a loss of funds or compromised accounts. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12069528\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Many agencies also provide the next steps to take after facing a scam, whether it includes personal identity theft, a loss of funds or compromised accounts. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, the BBB is a nonprofit, and they don’t have the “power to shut down anyone,” Galvan said. Nonetheless, the group works closely with local government agencies, which \u003cem>can \u003c/em>then investigate the company and the scam.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>However, the BBB is a nonprofit, and they don’t have the “power to shut down anyone,” Galvan said. Nonetheless, the group works closely with local government agencies, which \u003cem>can \u003c/em>then investigate the company and the scam.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And since \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052217/immigration-lawyers-bay-area-common-scams-notario-fraud\">immigration-based scams\u003c/a> have also become common, she said that the BBB is not a government agency and does not verify the residency status of anyone reporting this kind of scam. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And since \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052217/immigration-lawyers-bay-area-common-scams-notario-fraud\">immigration-based scams\u003c/a> have also become common, she said that the BBB is not a government agency and does not verify the residency status of anyone reporting this kind of scam. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>People can also report potential scams to other sites and organizations including:\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>People can also report potential scams to other sites and organizations including:\u003c/p>\n"
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"The FCC: Unwanted Calls/Texts",
"Local authorities like the police",
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"The organization that is being impersonated (for example, the IRS has a guide on how to contact the agency if you run into an IRS-based scam — national agencies can be found on the federal government’s website, or find a state-based agency on the California Department of Social Services website)",
"PG&E Scams",
"The FTC’s Report Fraud website",
"Internet Crime Complaint Center"
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null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
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null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115002234203-Unwanted-Calls-Texts-Phone\">The FCC: Unwanted Calls/Texts\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115002234203-Unwanted-Calls-Texts-Phone\">The FCC: Unwanted Calls/Texts\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>Local authorities like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090715/outside-lands-ticket-pass-friday-saturday-sunday-lineup-resale-scams-2026\">the police\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>Local authorities like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090715/outside-lands-ticket-pass-friday-saturday-sunday-lineup-resale-scams-2026\">the police\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company\">California Attorney General’s office\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company\">California Attorney General’s office\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>The organization that is being impersonated (for example, the IRS has \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/report-fraud/report-fake-irs-treasury-or-tax-related-emails-and-messages\">a guide on how to contact the agency\u003c/a> if you run into an IRS-based scam — national agencies can be \u003ca href=\"https://www.usa.gov/agency-index\">found on the federal government’s website\u003c/a>, or find a state-based agency on \u003ca href=\"https://cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/fraud/subprograms-and-info\">the California Department of Social Services website\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>The organization that is being impersonated (for example, the IRS has \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/report-fraud/report-fake-irs-treasury-or-tax-related-emails-and-messages\">a guide on how to contact the agency\u003c/a> if you run into an IRS-based scam — national agencies can be \u003ca href=\"https://www.usa.gov/agency-index\">found on the federal government’s website\u003c/a>, or find a state-based agency on \u003ca href=\"https://cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/fraud/subprograms-and-info\">the California Department of Social Services website\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pge.com/en/account/customer-service/scams.html\">PG&E Scams\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pge.com/en/account/customer-service/scams.html\">PG&E Scams\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/\">FTC’s Report Fraud website\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/\">FTC’s Report Fraud website\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ic3.gov/\">Internet Crime Complaint Center\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ic3.gov/\">Internet Crime Complaint Center\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
]
}
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"level": 3,
"text": "Seek support"
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Seek support\u003c/h3>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Seek support\u003c/h3>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many agencies also provide the next steps to take after facing a scam, whether it includes personal identity theft, a loss of funds or compromised accounts. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Many agencies also provide the next steps to take after facing a scam, whether it includes personal identity theft, a loss of funds or compromised accounts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some resources include:\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some resources include:\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/list",
"attrs": {
"items": [
"IRS: If You Were Scammed",
"California Attorney General’s page on consumer protection",
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"FTC Consumer Advice",
"BBB Scam Survival Toolkit and the BBB Scam Prevention Guide"
],
"ordered": false,
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"excerpt": "Phone and text scams are getting more sophisticated. Here are some common ones in the Bay and the country, along with tips on how to keep a lookout for them. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>If you’ve had the nagging feeling that scam calls and messages have gotten worse over the last few years, you’re actually correct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Americans reported losing a total of $3.5 billion to imposter scams in 2025, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">June data\u003c/a> announced by the Federal Trade Commission this summer — nearly three times the amount reported in 2020. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Imposter scams and other types of fraud through social media, email and other platforms have become a ubiquitous issue impacting people across the country. According to \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/poll-scams-law-enforcement-social-media-389f8d824b89fa434c297729f2aaf56d\">a poll and investigation\u003c/a> by the \u003cem>Associated Press\u003c/em> and the University of Chicago, almost every American has been \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/scams-online-scams-ai-internet-safety-phishing-fraud-34517de3546d604e20c9d78d3dc5af4f\">“targeted by scammers in some way.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It can happen to anyone,” said Alma Galvan, the San Francisco Bay Area communications director for the Better Business Bureau, a nonprofit that supports consumers and businesses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t matter your education level,” she said. “It doesn’t matter what you look like. Scammers will target anyone.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098963\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Phone and text scams are getting more sophisticated. Americans reported losing a total of $3.5 billion to imposter scams in 2025, according to June data announced by the Federal Trade Commission this summer. (Matthias Balk/Picture Alliance via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And while scams take all forms — \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/sf-better-business-bureau-warns-customers-of-cat-22413539.php\">pretending to be local San Francisco businesses\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/article/news-releases/34935-bbb-scam-alert-dont-be-fooled-by-free-gas-and-grocery-card-postcards\">fake gas gift cards\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095536/after-the-18000-scam-how-can-bay-area-renters-protect-themselves\">rent schemes\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-know-about-romance-scams\">catfishing\u003c/a> and even impersonating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">KQED \u003cem>Forum \u003c/em>host Mina Kim\u003c/a> — the ones that fall directly into your lap are usually through phone calls and text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is compounded by the fact that your phone’s caller ID capabilities may not always flag a spam call — and scammers can find a way to make it appear as if they are calling from \u003ca href=\"https://www.calwater.com/help/protecting-yourself-against-utility-scams/\">a verified organization or agency\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, the problem has become \u003cem>so\u003c/em> widespread that California now has its own \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069507/sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers\">“Delete Request and Opt-out Platform” (DROP) form\u003c/a>, which allows residents to scrub their info from data brokers — a major way scammers obtain your contact information — in order to lessen the amount of scam calls and texts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While a scam may feel obvious in hindsight, it can be hard to think calmly in the heat of the moment, especially since scammers often fake emergencies or apply pressure to spur people to act in panic. And the ability of scammers to persuade and convince their targets has only gotten worse with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">the rise of generative AI.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One silver lining: Scams often follow the same kinds of patterns and playbooks — and knowing about them could help you and your family learn to detect a scam even faster.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Read on to learn about common forms of phone- and text-based scams in the Bay Area and California, as well as the red flags to look out for if you do receive a potentially enticing message. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Task scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most common scams in the Bay Area have been “task scams,” Galvan said: when someone receives an offer — often through text — to do seemingly simple, repetitive actions online, such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/all/scamstudies/jobscams/employment-scams-2026-update\">liking YouTube videos\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There are so many different versions of this scam, and it doesn’t target one individual,” she said, explaining that the age range of people impacted by the scam varies from early 20s to late 60s. “It attracts consumers that are looking for a job.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The kind of job being offered promises “flexible hours, the ability to work from home, super high earnings — and you only have to work an hour and a half a day, and you make $500, with the option of making extra money if you decide to work over the weekend,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes these scammers will even provide some initial payment to build some trust. But these so-called opportunities can lead to major consequences. One person reported to the BBB lost $17,000 after buying equipment to work from home, she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The scammers “instructed him to purchase gift cards to pay for the equipment,” saying it was for “security measures and protocol that the company had,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A major red flag, Galvan said, is recognizing when the salary may be too high for the task. People should also never pay to apply for a job. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Don’t let anyone deposit money into your personal bank account if you haven’t had a job interview or received an offer letter, she said. You should also never make any suggested purchases with gift cards or cryptocurrency, especially since the latter is “not regulated by the government,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: A job offer with aspects — high salary, flexibility, simplicity — that seem too good to be true, a demand to purchase equipment or pay to apply\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Employment scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In another employment-based scam, targets will receive a fake job offer — purporting to be from a legitimate business in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A person may get a text message, a DM through social media or a platform like WhatsApp and Telegram offering a position related to their field, “but then the salary is just above average for the job itself,” Galvan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said that people should go to the company’s website and verify if the position is indeed real — and even try calling the company to also verify the job listing and the identity of the person conducting the interview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-instagram wp-block-embed-instagram\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keep in mind: Anyone can create a website, but a way to look into who is \u003cem>running \u003c/em>a website is by visiting \u003ca href=\"https://www.whois.com/\">Whois.com\u003c/a>. If the website is public, you’ll be able to see who created it, when it was created and when the domain expired. For example, if the website was created just a few days ago and is offering several jobs, it may not be a legitimate business, Galvan said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While you should insist on a formal interview by phone or video, generative AI has unfortunately been a major tool in these scams, allowing fraudsters to produce voices and videos to mimic recruiters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It might feel incredibly discouraging to make sure everyone you are talking to is real — something KQED’s internet \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/reel/Dc9KDXSDP26/\">podcast Close All Tabs\u003c/a> even touches on in an episode about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086839/how-to-prove-youre-not-ai\">how difficult it is to prove \u003cem>you \u003c/em>are not AI\u003c/a>. But that’s why doing the research beforehand is vital, Galvan said, “to make sure that you’re actually talking to a real person.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: High salaries, well-known companies, a job website that was only recently created, a suspicious video interview\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Bank scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">the FTC\u003c/a>, the most costly type of impersonation scams come from a fake security alert, often from someone purporting to represent your real bank.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People are convinced to move money to “protect” it, with their losses often limited only by their available funds,” per \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/06/ftc-data-show-people-reported-losing-3-point-5-billion-imposter-scams-2025\">the FTC\u003c/a>. Callers may also ask for a person’s card number, a PIN or the last four digits of their Social Security number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1187\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM.jpg\" alt=\"A woman walks past a Wells Fargo ATM in Pasadena on September 28, 2016. California Treasurer John Chiang said the state will suspend several banking relationships with Wells Fargo to sanction the firm following allegations of 'fleecing its customers.'\" class=\"wp-image-11108212\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM-400x247.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM-800x495.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM-1180x730.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/09/WellsFargoATM-960x594.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A woman walks past a Wells Fargo ATM in Pasadena. (Frederic J Brown/AFP-Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Galvan said here it’s good to have a connection with your local bank and make sure you know if you’ve even opted in to receive text messages from them — because otherwise, getting out-of-the-blue texts from your bank should raise your suspicions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After hanging up, she said people should be sure to call the number on the back of your bank card, as opposed to the first result on a Google search, since a scammer could potentially buy an ad and place a fraudulent phone number. Don’t call any numbers you’re given in a message purporting to be from your bank either, as these may be scam numbers too. Only through this official phone number to your bank can you confirm if the message you got was valid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s up to us to do that little extra step,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: Unexpected texts from your bank, requests for personal information, including your PIN\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">IRS scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What is more stressful than a call from the bank? A call from the Internal Revenue Service, which handles taxes in the United States. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The IRS has a page dedicated to \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/tax-scams/recognize-tax-scams-and-fraud\">the common reasons\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/dirty-dozen-tax-scams-for-2026-irs-reminds-taxpayers-to-watch-out-for-dangerous-threats\">impersonators use\u003c/a> when contacting unsuspecting targets, including W-2 form fraud and unclaimed tax refunds. Some people have also received fake calls about apparent back taxes owed, with the scammer claiming to be from the IRS or \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/tax-season-phone-scams-and-taxpayer-id-theft\">“Tax Resolution Oversight Department.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12035739\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/internal-revenue-service_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) building in Washington, D.C. (Zach Gibson/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But you should know: The IRS primarily contacts people through letters the first time — which \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/individuals/understanding-your-irs-notice-or-letter\">you can verify online or by calling the IRS’s hotline at 800-829-1040\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keep in mind — like your bank, the IRS only \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/how-to-know-its-the-irs\">texts\u003c/a> you when you opt in to receive those texts. According to the agency, there \u003cem>are \u003c/em>some cases where they use automated phone messages, but these calls will “direct you to IRS.gov to securely manage your account, make payments or resolve an issue,” \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/how-to-know-its-the-irs\">the IRS website read\u003c/a>. “The messages don’t share specific details.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/tax-season-phone-scams-and-taxpayer-id-theft\">the FCC\u003c/a>, people should never give personal details over the phone like PINs, passwords and credit card information. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you receive a call from someone claiming to be with the IRS, ask for a reference number. Then the person should hang up and call the IRS again, but only using one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/let-us-help-you\">the official IRS phone numbers\u003c/a> listed on its government website, to see if the call was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: Unexpected texts from the IRS, attempts to panic you with talk of “back taxes” owed or similar, a live caller wanting financial information including your PIN\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Emergency call scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This particularly alarming type of scam has continued to \u003ca href=\"https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/grandparent/\">grab headlines\u003c/a> for the past few years: Someone impersonating a loved one in text messages or even a phone call, desperately asking a parent or a grandparent to wire them money due to some emergency.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A common example is the young person — usually college-aged — saying they’re traveling for vacation (for example, for spring break) and getting arrested at the U.S.-Mexico border, Galvan said. And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/consumers/artificial-intelligence-scam-tips.page\">AI has only made it easier\u003c/a> for scammers to impersonate someone’s voice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It sounds like the person,” she said. “It sounds legitimate.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098969\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/PhoneGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">“It doesn’t matter your education level. It doesn’t matter what you look like. Scammers will target anyone,” said Alma Galvan, the San Francisco Bay Area communications director for the Better Business Bureau. (Edward Berthelot/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Galvan suggested families have a code word that the scammer wouldn’t be able to guess. If the person over the phone is able to provide the code word, then the person knows it’s potentially real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A key part of this scam’s playbook: creating a sense of emergency with the need to send money immediately. The Federal Communications Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/scam-alert/grandparent-scams-get-more-sophisticated\">recommended that the person\u003c/a> receiving the call should, after hanging up, try calling the intended person using the number saved in their contacts to see if they truly were the one on the call.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: A dramatic, panic-inducing story of some emergency, an urgent request for money (for example, to post bail), the person using an unrecognized number \u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Mail delivery scams\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A common way this plays out: You receive a text alert from an unknown number prompting you to click a link — because “your” package from a company like USPS, Amazon or FedEx has been misplaced or needs a pick-up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve all transitioned into buying things online,” Galvan said. Because of this, she said it’s key to remember “what you’re ordering, where it’s coming from and who’s going to deliver it for you.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When receiving these texts, she said to be wary of \u003ca href=\"https://www.du.edu/it/services/security/5-url-warning-signs\">suspicious links in the text\u003c/a> — for example, links that were generated by URL-shortening websites like \u003ca href=\"http://bit.ly\">bit.ly\u003c/a>, which can be used to mask the true online destination. These links may be seeking personal information input from you — or even be malicious software.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098971\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/MailTruckGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A United States Postal Service (USPS) delivery van is parked on a street in Salt Lake City, Utah, on Aug. 21, 2026. (Charles-McClintock Wilson/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Keep in mind that if you don’t have \u003ca href=\"https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/news/recognizing-and-avoiding-spyware\">spyware\u003c/a> [protection], it just takes one click for you to get a virus on your computer. Same thing with your phone,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Phones tend to have protection come with them, she said, but it’s important to make sure that your software — like an iPhone’s iOS — is up-to-date. For more tips, KQED has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">a thorough guide on digital hygiene and security\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Admittedly, when it comes to packages and deliveries, it can be hard to know what is a scam text and what is a simple text alert that you signed up for. But California has \u003ca href=\"https://www.business.com/articles/text-message-laws/\">laws\u003c/a> that require people to opt in to receive various forms of text messages. So if you don’t remember signing up for text alerts, that could be a potential red flag. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The red flags: “Delivery updates” you weren’t expecting, being urged to click a link\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other common phone and text scams in the Bay Area\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, these scams are just the tip of the iceberg of the type of texts and calls a person can receive. Luckily, there are major tools online to help you look up past scams and see if they match a call, text or business you’re suspicious about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The BBB has a thorough \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/scamtracker/lookupscam\">Scam Tracker\u003c/a> database with a list of scams reported by consumers, complete with descriptions of who they were reached by, who they thought they were talking to and even how much they lost. The American Association of Retired Persons also has \u003ca href=\"https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/tracking-map/\">a scam map.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other scams may involve people impersonating:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The California Department of Public Health\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The state’s health agency warns that scammers are calling to ask for financial and sensitive information, pretending to represent CDPH. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/contact_us.aspx\">According to the agency\u003c/a>, legitimate calls focus on public health matters like disease contact tracing. They “will never involve requests for sensitive financial or non-health-related information, such as someone’s Social Security number or credit card details,” CDPH said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1438\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-e1549984154270.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11725572\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A man walks past a PG&E sign. (Jeff Chiu/AP)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Utility agencies\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>West Sacramento sent out a warning early this year about \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/CityofWestSacramento/posts/a-postcard-claiming-to-be-a-public-utility-notice-from-a-private-entity-called-c/1326817099482868/\">a postcard falsely requiring residents to enroll in a “program\u003c/a>” that would allow them to receive funds for utility upgrades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other utility scams may call to ask people to pay their bills by using \u003ca href=\"https://www.santaclaraca.gov/Home/Components/News/News/45479/\">a prepaid credit card, gift card, or third-party payment app\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re unsure about your utility account, be sure to call your county’s services division or PG&E directly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A radio or TV opportunity\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Creatives are being increasingly targeted by scammers posing as the hosts of radio or TV shows, offering them the chance to talk about their work on-air — as soon as they make some kind of donation or payment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Authors have even received messages pretending to be \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913708/scammers-pretended-to-be-forums-mina-kim-heres-why\">KQED Forum host Mina Kim\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>inviting them on our call-in show to talk about their book (for $200). \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED will never charge people to be on \u003cem>Forum,\u003c/em> and producers are the ones who directly connect with authors and publishers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">So you got scammed. Now what?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Report it ASAP\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You may feel overwhelmed or even embarrassed after realizing that you fell into a scam, Galvan said — and that’s natural. However, she said that \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/scamtracker/reportscam\">reporting it to places like the BBB\u003c/a> offers the chance to help people around you avoid the same scam by making the information public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We want to make it as universal as possible and as easy-to-use tool for the public, so that we can alert the consumers about what’s happening in our area and then hopefully get them to be looked into by law enforcement or by government,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12069528\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Many agencies also provide the next steps to take after facing a scam, whether it includes personal identity theft, a loss of funds or compromised accounts. (Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, the BBB is a nonprofit, and they don’t have the “power to shut down anyone,” Galvan said. Nonetheless, the group works closely with local government agencies, which \u003cem>can \u003c/em>then investigate the company and the scam.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And since \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052217/immigration-lawyers-bay-area-common-scams-notario-fraud\">immigration-based scams\u003c/a> have also become common, she said that the BBB is not a government agency and does not verify the residency status of anyone reporting this kind of scam. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People can also report potential scams to other sites and organizations including:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115002234203-Unwanted-Calls-Texts-Phone\">The FCC: Unwanted Calls/Texts\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Local authorities like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090715/outside-lands-ticket-pass-friday-saturday-sunday-lineup-resale-scams-2026\">the police\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company\">California Attorney General’s office\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>The organization that is being impersonated (for example, the IRS has \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/report-fraud/report-fake-irs-treasury-or-tax-related-emails-and-messages\">a guide on how to contact the agency\u003c/a> if you run into an IRS-based scam — national agencies can be \u003ca href=\"https://www.usa.gov/agency-index\">found on the federal government’s website\u003c/a>, or find a state-based agency on \u003ca href=\"https://cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/fraud/subprograms-and-info\">the California Department of Social Services website\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pge.com/en/account/customer-service/scams.html\">PG&E Scams\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/\">FTC’s Report Fraud website\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ic3.gov/\">Internet Crime Complaint Center\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Seek support\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many agencies also provide the next steps to take after facing a scam, whether it includes personal identity theft, a loss of funds or compromised accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some resources include:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/help/tax-scams/if-you-were-scammed\">IRS: If You Were Scammed\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/consumers\">California Attorney General’s page on consumer protection\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/idtheft/facts/how-to-registry\">California Identity Theft Registry\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-do-if-you-were-scammed\">FTC Consumer Advice\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://scamsurvivaltoolkit.bbbmarketplacetrust.org/\">BBB Scam Survival Toolkit\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbb.org/all/scam-prevention\">BBB Scam Prevention Guide\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "A New Anthropic Model Seeks to Test How AI Could Impact the US Economy",
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"headTitle": "A New Anthropic Model Seeks to Test How AI Could Impact the US Economy | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Will \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> light a fire under the U.S. economy in the coming years? That’s been a big question in the field of economics, and now Anthropic — the company behind the popular Claude AI assistant — is taking a stab at helping people find their own answers. The company has created \u003ca href=\"https://www.anthropic.com/institute/econ-scenarios\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">an interactive tool\u003c/a> that lets users test their assumptions about how productive — or disruptive — the AI boom might be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In one scenario, artificial intelligence provides a gentle boost to the economy, lifting growth rates with little effect on workers. At the other extreme, GDP soars, but so does unemployment, with nearly 14% of workers losing their jobs to AI and less than half of them finding new ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The different outcomes depend on how capable and flexible the technology is, how quickly it’s adopted, whether it supports or replaces workers, and whether displaced workers find new work to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In the modest change scenario, AI is a small technology. The economy continues on a ‘normal’ path with AI making changes around the margins,” Anthropic experts write in an \u003ca href=\"https://www-cdn.anthropic.com/files/4zrzovbb/website/cf58f84d46a4a76bf5a5b039ac695fba6b80041c.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">accompanying blog post\u003c/a>. “In the extreme scenario, AI transforms the economy. The macroeconomic consequences go well beyond any event in history, both in terms of magnitudes and in terms of the speed at which change happens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Authors of the Anthropic study do not offer a prediction of which outcome is more likely. In general, they say, AI experts tend to project a more rapid spread of the technology while economists tend to be more cautious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic co-founder Jack Clark is somewhere in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think the technology will keep developing at a very, very fast and sustained rate, but diffusion of the technology will likely be more challenging than people think,” Clark told NPR. “So it will get really, really good. But it will make its way into the economy more slowly.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI’s impact on economy is uncertain\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A survey by Anthropic of nearly 11,000 people found that the public’s expectations of AI are also mixed. The average survey respondent projects a significant boost in productivity and economic growth but also a substantial disruption to workers in AI-sensitive fields.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A major determinant of AI’s impact will be how quickly it spreads through the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079282\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Salesforce Tower is seen reflected in the windows of 500 Howard St., where AI firm Anthropic subleased Slack’s office, in downtown San Francisco, California, on Oct. 19, 2023. (Loren Elliott for The Washington Post via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If the AI can do amazing things but nobody uses it, then it’s not going to have an economic impact,” says Anton Korinek, Anthropic’s head of transformative AI economic studies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While rapid adoption of the technology could be more disruptive, it could also produce much faster economic growth. In Anthropic’s extreme case, GDP grows at more than seven times its current pace. That could produce a lot of additional tax revenue to support workers who are hurt by AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you end up with this level of GDP growth, you have moves available to you as a [government] policymaker that are unimaginable today,” Clark says. “Policymakers should get ready to spend.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“In the modest change scenario, AI is a small technology. The economy continues on a ‘normal’ path with AI making changes around the margins,” Anthropic experts write in an \u003ca href=\"https://www-cdn.anthropic.com/files/4zrzovbb/website/cf58f84d46a4a76bf5a5b039ac695fba6b80041c.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">accompanying blog post\u003c/a>. “In the extreme scenario, AI transforms the economy. The macroeconomic consequences go well beyond any event in history, both in terms of magnitudes and in terms of the speed at which change happens.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Anthropic, the artificial intelligence company behind the Claude assistant, has created an interactive tool to show how AI might affect the U.S economy a little or a lot in the next few years.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Will \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> light a fire under the U.S. economy in the coming years? That’s been a big question in the field of economics, and now Anthropic — the company behind the popular Claude AI assistant — is taking a stab at helping people find their own answers. The company has created \u003ca href=\"https://www.anthropic.com/institute/econ-scenarios\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">an interactive tool\u003c/a> that lets users test their assumptions about how productive — or disruptive — the AI boom might be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In one scenario, artificial intelligence provides a gentle boost to the economy, lifting growth rates with little effect on workers. At the other extreme, GDP soars, but so does unemployment, with nearly 14% of workers losing their jobs to AI and less than half of them finding new ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The different outcomes depend on how capable and flexible the technology is, how quickly it’s adopted, whether it supports or replaces workers, and whether displaced workers find new work to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In the modest change scenario, AI is a small technology. The economy continues on a ‘normal’ path with AI making changes around the margins,” Anthropic experts write in an \u003ca href=\"https://www-cdn.anthropic.com/files/4zrzovbb/website/cf58f84d46a4a76bf5a5b039ac695fba6b80041c.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">accompanying blog post\u003c/a>. “In the extreme scenario, AI transforms the economy. The macroeconomic consequences go well beyond any event in history, both in terms of magnitudes and in terms of the speed at which change happens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Authors of the Anthropic study do not offer a prediction of which outcome is more likely. In general, they say, AI experts tend to project a more rapid spread of the technology while economists tend to be more cautious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic co-founder Jack Clark is somewhere in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think the technology will keep developing at a very, very fast and sustained rate, but diffusion of the technology will likely be more challenging than people think,” Clark told NPR. “So it will get really, really good. But it will make its way into the economy more slowly.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI’s impact on economy is uncertain\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A survey by Anthropic of nearly 11,000 people found that the public’s expectations of AI are also mixed. The average survey respondent projects a significant boost in productivity and economic growth but also a substantial disruption to workers in AI-sensitive fields.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A major determinant of AI’s impact will be how quickly it spreads through the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079282\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Salesforce Tower is seen reflected in the windows of 500 Howard St., where AI firm Anthropic subleased Slack’s office, in downtown San Francisco, California, on Oct. 19, 2023. (Loren Elliott for The Washington Post via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If the AI can do amazing things but nobody uses it, then it’s not going to have an economic impact,” says Anton Korinek, Anthropic’s head of transformative AI economic studies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While rapid adoption of the technology could be more disruptive, it could also produce much faster economic growth. In Anthropic’s extreme case, GDP grows at more than seven times its current pace. That could produce a lot of additional tax revenue to support workers who are hurt by AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you end up with this level of GDP growth, you have moves available to you as a [government] policymaker that are unimaginable today,” Clark says. “Policymakers should get ready to spend.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "for-these-millennial-fountain-pen-fans-community-is-the-real-collectible",
"title": "For These Millennial Fountain Pen Fans, Community Is the Real Collectible",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Angelique Ramsey of Long Beach owns about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13992300/finding-your-people-meetups-hobbies-making-friends-bay-area\">25 fountain pens\u003c/a>. Her favorite is the Benu Euphoria, a glittering pen with a custom “architect” nib, a specialty grind that changes the shape of the line as you move the pen across the page.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was looking for something that wasn’t a throwaway,” said Ramsey, 38. “I like that intentionality of sitting down and writing a letter, having something that’s a possession that you take care of. And so, you know, you can go overboard with it, but you don’t have to.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this era of incessant, instant communication, fountain pens seem like a novelty from another, analog era. Perhaps this is exactly why millennials especially are flocking to events like the \u003ca href=\"https://sanfranciscopenshow.com\">S.F. Pen Show\u003c/a> at the end of August, to rub shoulders with an estimated 5,000 people in various stages of vintage writing instrument obsession at the Westin San Francisco Airport Hotel in Millbrae.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though the San Francisco show isn’t the biggest in the country — that distinction belongs to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.dcpenshow.com\">Washington, D.C., Fountain Pen Supershow\u003c/a> — the S.F. Pen Show has become a major gathering for the Pacific Rim pen community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097876\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-2-KQED.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-2-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left, Angelique Ramsey, Tracy Velasquez and Jennifer Harford attend the S.F. Pen Show in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 28, 2026. Ramsey and Velasquez said they were primarily focused on drawing Harford, new to fountain pens, deeper into the obsession. (Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-5 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12097620\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00087_TV-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097620\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00087_TV-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00087_TV-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00087_TV-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pens on display at Michael’s Fat Boy pen booth at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae on Aug. 30, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12097599\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00313_TV-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097599\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00313_TV-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00313_TV-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00313_TV-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Clare Coco holds up a pen made from abalone shells at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 30, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Patrick Yandell, 31, manages U.S. business for the pen manufacturer OMAS, founded a century ago in Bologna, Italy. Like many vintage pen brands, OMAS has had a complicated corporate history. LVMH bought the company from the founder’s heirs in 2000. After subsequent ownership changes and a period of dormancy, the brand was revived by descendants of the founder, Armando Simoni. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yandell says most people own digital devices to accomplish most of the practical tasks that used to be accomplished with pen and paper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can still find the sober black and navy blue pens similar to what your parents and grandparents wrote with, to be sure. But the display cases at the Pen Show are filled with iridescent resin, glitter and breathtakingly elaborate Japanese lacquerwork. The taste today is for pens — and accessories — that deliver maximum delight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fountain pens cost anywhere from a few dollars for something like a \u003ca href=\"https://www.gouletpens.com/products/platinum-preppy-fountain-pen-violet\">Platinum Preppy\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.executivepensdirect.com/en-us/blogs/fun-stuff/the-ten-most-expensive-pens-in-the-world\">millions of dollars\u003c/a>, depending on a pen’s brand, craftsmanship, rarity and the precious materials involved. Your mileage will vary depending on your taste and bank account balance. That said, you don’t need to spend a lot of money to have a good time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“What we’re seeing now is a lot of people who came to fountain pens, not out of any practical sense whatsoever, but just as a hobby,” said Yandell, who owns more than 200 pens himself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s part of a whole ecosystem that’s arisen.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Traditional OMAS pens are still on offer, and newer models are made with materials and techniques that evoke the company’s hundred-year history. The old world is still there — it just has more glitter, to accommodate the fact that a growing number of the people doing the buying and selling are in their 30s and 40s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That sparkle caught the eye of Gardena-resident Tracy Velasquez, who traveled to the Pen Show with Ramsey and another friend, Jennifer Harford. Velasquez has nearly 100 pens in her collection. Her favorite is also a Benu Euphoria, a gift from her husband called Vodka on the Rocks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The resin body is striking, made from a silver luminescent resin and featuring multicolored holographic sparkles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I really like collecting things that are shiny,” Velasquez said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In contrast with her friends Ramsey and Velasquez, 38-year-old Harford of Berkeley owned exactly one: a Pilot fountain pen widely celebrated as an entry-level favorite. That was her entry down the rabbit hole that is fountain pen collecting, one her friends watch with affectionate excitement. They traveled north just to see her eyes agog at the crowds and the vast array of pens on display at the S.F. Pen Show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097875\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A display case of Ogivas at the S.F. Pen Show in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 28, 2026, showcases materials and techniques that evoke the hundred-year history of Italian pen maker OMAS. The old world is still there. It just has more glitter. (Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“My fiancé bought me my first pen and ink, and so he was kind of the one to push me into it,” she said. “And once I had that start, then I was like, I see what the hype is.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.capenshow.com/\">California Pen Show\u003c/a>, held near Los Angeles each February, also has a particularly strong West Coast presence, but if the presence of Southern Californians at the Westin was any indication, the two shows complement each other as much as they compete. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s true for Fernanda Izidorio, who lives in Los Angeles and owns about 40 pens. She said the trip north is as much about community as it is machinery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Izidorio is a member of the Greater Los Angeles Metro Pen & Ink Group, or Glampig, which has a presence on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/glampig_club/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and Discord, as well as IRL groups that meet in L.A. and Orange counties. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097574\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Michael Hochstetler hovers a magnifying glass over a fountain pen at Michael’s Fat Boy pen booth at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 30, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-6 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" data-id=\"12097877\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097877\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-3-KQED.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-3-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Fernanda Izidorio is a member of the Greater Los Angeles Metro Pen & Ink Group, or Glampig, which has presence on Instagram and Discord, as well as IRL groups that meet in L.A. and Orange counties. “I actually really like meeting people in person,” Izidorio said. (Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12097596\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00237_TV-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097596\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00237_TV-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00237_TV-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00237_TV-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Attendees browse at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 30, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I actually really like meeting people in person,” Izidorio said. “It is, in a way, online. We get to contact each other, communicate through Discord. But then we actually meet in person and try pens. That’s very fun.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are careers in this universe beyond manufacturing and retail. Nik Pang, 43, for instance, is a \u003ca href=\"https://entropy.ink\">professional calligrapher\u003c/a> who repairs and sells vintage pens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pang and his wife have imposed a hard “cap” on his personal collection: 700 pens and pen-like objects. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About 500 of them, he said, aren’t particularly useful for writing, but he’s interested in the history of the technology. His wife once asked him a morbidly useful question: If their house were burning, and he had time to save just a few pens, which ones would he take?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Two of them are family heirlooms. His grandfather’s fountain pen was a Parker Duofold, commemorating 30 years on the police force. His father’s was a Parker 75, used while earning his doctorate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s part of what makes the fountain-pen revival so multifaceted. The appeal is craftsmanship, as well as beauty, style and the pleasure of finding a community that draws in people from multiple generations, across the globe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Angelique Ramsey of Long Beach owns about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13992300/finding-your-people-meetups-hobbies-making-friends-bay-area\">25 fountain pens\u003c/a>. Her favorite is the Benu Euphoria, a glittering pen with a custom “architect” nib, a specialty grind that changes the shape of the line as you move the pen across the page.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I was looking for something that wasn’t a throwaway,” said Ramsey, 38. “I like that intentionality of sitting down and writing a letter, having something that’s a possession that you take care of. And so, you know, you can go overboard with it, but you don’t have to.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I was looking for something that wasn’t a throwaway,” said Ramsey, 38. “I like that intentionality of sitting down and writing a letter, having something that’s a possession that you take care of. And so, you know, you can go overboard with it, but you don’t have to.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In this era of incessant, instant communication, fountain pens seem like a novelty from another, analog era. Perhaps this is exactly why millennials especially are flocking to events like the \u003ca href=\"https://sanfranciscopenshow.com\">S.F. Pen Show\u003c/a> at the end of August, to rub shoulders with an estimated 5,000 people in various stages of vintage writing instrument obsession at the Westin San Francisco Airport Hotel in Millbrae.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In this era of incessant, instant communication, fountain pens seem like a novelty from another, analog era. Perhaps this is exactly why millennials especially are flocking to events like the \u003ca href=\"https://sanfranciscopenshow.com\">S.F. Pen Show\u003c/a> at the end of August, to rub shoulders with an estimated 5,000 people in various stages of vintage writing instrument obsession at the Westin San Francisco Airport Hotel in Millbrae.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though the San Francisco show isn’t the biggest in the country — that distinction belongs to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.dcpenshow.com\">Washington, D.C., Fountain Pen Supershow\u003c/a> — the S.F. Pen Show has become a major gathering for the Pacific Rim pen community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Though the San Francisco show isn’t the biggest in the country — that distinction belongs to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.dcpenshow.com\">Washington, D.C., Fountain Pen Supershow\u003c/a> — the S.F. Pen Show has become a major gathering for the Pacific Rim pen community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097876\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left, Angelique Ramsey, Tracy Velasquez and Jennifer Harford attend the S.F. Pen Show in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 28, 2026. Ramsey and Velasquez said they were primarily focused on drawing Harford, new to fountain pens, deeper into the obsession.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00087_TV-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097620\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pens on display at Michael’s Fat Boy pen booth at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae on Aug. 30, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Patrick Yandell, 31, manages U.S. business for the pen manufacturer OMAS, founded a century ago in Bologna, Italy. Like many vintage pen brands, OMAS has had a complicated corporate history. LVMH bought the company from the founder’s heirs in 2000. After subsequent ownership changes and a period of dormancy, the brand was revived by descendants of the founder, Armando Simoni. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Patrick Yandell, 31, manages U.S. business for the pen manufacturer OMAS, founded a century ago in Bologna, Italy. Like many vintage pen brands, OMAS has had a complicated corporate history. LVMH bought the company from the founder’s heirs in 2000. After subsequent ownership changes and a period of dormancy, the brand was revived by descendants of the founder, Armando Simoni. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yandell says most people own digital devices to accomplish most of the practical tasks that used to be accomplished with pen and paper. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can still find the sober black and navy blue pens similar to what your parents and grandparents wrote with, to be sure. But the display cases at the Pen Show are filled with iridescent resin, glitter and breathtakingly elaborate Japanese lacquerwork. The taste today is for pens — and accessories — that deliver maximum delight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can still find the sober black and navy blue pens similar to what your parents and grandparents wrote with, to be sure. But the display cases at the Pen Show are filled with iridescent resin, glitter and breathtakingly elaborate Japanese lacquerwork. The taste today is for pens — and accessories — that deliver maximum delight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Fountain pens cost anywhere from a few dollars for something like a \u003ca href=\"https://www.gouletpens.com/products/platinum-preppy-fountain-pen-violet\">Platinum Preppy\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.executivepensdirect.com/en-us/blogs/fun-stuff/the-ten-most-expensive-pens-in-the-world\">millions of dollars\u003c/a>, depending on a pen’s brand, craftsmanship, rarity and the precious materials involved. Your mileage will vary depending on your taste and bank account balance. That said, you don’t need to spend a lot of money to have a good time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Fountain pens cost anywhere from a few dollars for something like a \u003ca href=\"https://www.gouletpens.com/products/platinum-preppy-fountain-pen-violet\">Platinum Preppy\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.executivepensdirect.com/en-us/blogs/fun-stuff/the-ten-most-expensive-pens-in-the-world\">millions of dollars\u003c/a>, depending on a pen’s brand, craftsmanship, rarity and the precious materials involved. Your mileage will vary depending on your taste and bank account balance. That said, you don’t need to spend a lot of money to have a good time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“What we’re seeing now is a lot of people who came to fountain pens, not out of any practical sense whatsoever, but just as a hobby,” said Yandell, who owns more than 200 pens himself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Traditional OMAS pens are still on offer, and newer models are made with materials and techniques that evoke the company’s hundred-year history. The old world is still there — it just has more glitter, to accommodate the fact that a growing number of the people doing the buying and selling are in their 30s and 40s.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That sparkle caught the eye of Gardena-resident Tracy Velasquez, who traveled to the Pen Show with Ramsey and another friend, Jennifer Harford. Velasquez has nearly 100 pens in her collection. Her favorite is also a Benu Euphoria, a gift from her husband called Vodka on the Rocks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That sparkle caught the eye of Gardena-resident Tracy Velasquez, who traveled to the Pen Show with Ramsey and another friend, Jennifer Harford. Velasquez has nearly 100 pens in her collection. Her favorite is also a Benu Euphoria, a gift from her husband called Vodka on the Rocks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The resin body is striking, made from a silver luminescent resin and featuring multicolored holographic sparkles. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I really like collecting things that are shiny,” Velasquez said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In contrast with her friends Ramsey and Velasquez, 38-year-old Harford of Berkeley owned exactly one: a Pilot fountain pen widely celebrated as an entry-level favorite. That was her entry down the rabbit hole that is fountain pen collecting, one her friends watch with affectionate excitement. They traveled north just to see her eyes agog at the crowds and the vast array of pens on display at the S.F. Pen Show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097875\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A display case of Ogivas at the S.F. Pen Show in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 28, 2026, showcases materials and techniques that evoke the hundred-year history of Italian pen maker OMAS. The old world is still there. It just has more glitter.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097875\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A display case of Ogivas at the S.F. Pen Show in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 28, 2026, showcases materials and techniques that evoke the hundred-year history of Italian pen maker OMAS. The old world is still there. It just has more glitter.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“My fiancé bought me my first pen and ink, and so he was kind of the one to push me into it,” she said. “And once I had that start, then I was like, I see what the hype is.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.capenshow.com/\">California Pen Show\u003c/a>, held near Los Angeles each February, also has a particularly strong West Coast presence, but if the presence of Southern Californians at the Westin was any indication, the two shows complement each other as much as they compete. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s true for Fernanda Izidorio, who lives in Los Angeles and owns about 40 pens. She said the trip north is as much about community as it is machinery.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Izidorio is a member of the Greater Los Angeles Metro Pen & Ink Group, or Glampig, which has a presence on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/glampig_club/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and Discord, as well as IRL groups that meet in L.A. and Orange counties. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097574\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Michael Hochstetler hovers a magnifying glass over a fountain pen at Michael’s Fat Boy pen booth at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 30, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097877\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Fernanda Izidorio is a member of the Greater Los Angeles Metro Pen & Ink Group, or Glampig, which has presence on Instagram and Discord, as well as IRL groups that meet in L.A. and Orange counties. “I actually really like meeting people in person,” Izidorio said.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I actually really like meeting people in person,” Izidorio said. “It is, in a way, online. We get to contact each other, communicate through Discord. But then we actually meet in person and try pens. That’s very fun.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are careers in this universe beyond manufacturing and retail. Nik Pang, 43, for instance, is a \u003ca href=\"https://entropy.ink\">professional calligrapher\u003c/a> who repairs and sells vintage pens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There are careers in this universe beyond manufacturing and retail. Nik Pang, 43, for instance, is a \u003ca href=\"https://entropy.ink\">professional calligrapher\u003c/a> who repairs and sells vintage pens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Pang and his wife have imposed a hard “cap” on his personal collection: 700 pens and pen-like objects. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>About 500 of them, he said, aren’t particularly useful for writing, but he’s interested in the history of the technology. His wife once asked him a morbidly useful question: If their house were burning, and he had time to save just a few pens, which ones would he take?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>About 500 of them, he said, aren’t particularly useful for writing, but he’s interested in the history of the technology. His wife once asked him a morbidly useful question: If their house were burning, and he had time to save just a few pens, which ones would he take?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Two of them are family heirlooms. His grandfather’s fountain pen was a Parker Duofold, commemorating 30 years on the police force. His father’s was a Parker 75, used while earning his doctorate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Two of them are family heirlooms. His grandfather’s fountain pen was a Parker Duofold, commemorating 30 years on the police force. His father’s was a Parker 75, used while earning his doctorate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s part of what makes the fountain-pen revival so multifaceted. The appeal is craftsmanship, as well as beauty, style and the pleasure of finding a community that draws in people from multiple generations, across the globe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s part of what makes the fountain-pen revival so multifaceted. The appeal is craftsmanship, as well as beauty, style and the pleasure of finding a community that draws in people from multiple generations, across the globe.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Around 5,000 people gathered in San Francisco in August for an international fountain pen show. Many collectors who grew up digital are remaking the culture, online and IRL.",
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"title": "For These Millennial Fountain Pen Fans, Community Is the Real Collectible | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Angelique Ramsey of Long Beach owns about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13992300/finding-your-people-meetups-hobbies-making-friends-bay-area\">25 fountain pens\u003c/a>. Her favorite is the Benu Euphoria, a glittering pen with a custom “architect” nib, a specialty grind that changes the shape of the line as you move the pen across the page.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was looking for something that wasn’t a throwaway,” said Ramsey, 38. “I like that intentionality of sitting down and writing a letter, having something that’s a possession that you take care of. And so, you know, you can go overboard with it, but you don’t have to.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this era of incessant, instant communication, fountain pens seem like a novelty from another, analog era. Perhaps this is exactly why millennials especially are flocking to events like the \u003ca href=\"https://sanfranciscopenshow.com\">S.F. Pen Show\u003c/a> at the end of August, to rub shoulders with an estimated 5,000 people in various stages of vintage writing instrument obsession at the Westin San Francisco Airport Hotel in Millbrae.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though the San Francisco show isn’t the biggest in the country — that distinction belongs to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.dcpenshow.com\">Washington, D.C., Fountain Pen Supershow\u003c/a> — the S.F. Pen Show has become a major gathering for the Pacific Rim pen community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097876\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-2-KQED.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-2-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left, Angelique Ramsey, Tracy Velasquez and Jennifer Harford attend the S.F. Pen Show in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 28, 2026. Ramsey and Velasquez said they were primarily focused on drawing Harford, new to fountain pens, deeper into the obsession. (Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-5 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12097620\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00087_TV-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097620\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00087_TV-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00087_TV-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00087_TV-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pens on display at Michael’s Fat Boy pen booth at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae on Aug. 30, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12097599\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00313_TV-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097599\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00313_TV-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00313_TV-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00313_TV-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Clare Coco holds up a pen made from abalone shells at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 30, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Patrick Yandell, 31, manages U.S. business for the pen manufacturer OMAS, founded a century ago in Bologna, Italy. Like many vintage pen brands, OMAS has had a complicated corporate history. LVMH bought the company from the founder’s heirs in 2000. After subsequent ownership changes and a period of dormancy, the brand was revived by descendants of the founder, Armando Simoni. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yandell says most people own digital devices to accomplish most of the practical tasks that used to be accomplished with pen and paper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can still find the sober black and navy blue pens similar to what your parents and grandparents wrote with, to be sure. But the display cases at the Pen Show are filled with iridescent resin, glitter and breathtakingly elaborate Japanese lacquerwork. The taste today is for pens — and accessories — that deliver maximum delight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fountain pens cost anywhere from a few dollars for something like a \u003ca href=\"https://www.gouletpens.com/products/platinum-preppy-fountain-pen-violet\">Platinum Preppy\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.executivepensdirect.com/en-us/blogs/fun-stuff/the-ten-most-expensive-pens-in-the-world\">millions of dollars\u003c/a>, depending on a pen’s brand, craftsmanship, rarity and the precious materials involved. Your mileage will vary depending on your taste and bank account balance. That said, you don’t need to spend a lot of money to have a good time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“What we’re seeing now is a lot of people who came to fountain pens, not out of any practical sense whatsoever, but just as a hobby,” said Yandell, who owns more than 200 pens himself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s part of a whole ecosystem that’s arisen.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Traditional OMAS pens are still on offer, and newer models are made with materials and techniques that evoke the company’s hundred-year history. The old world is still there — it just has more glitter, to accommodate the fact that a growing number of the people doing the buying and selling are in their 30s and 40s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That sparkle caught the eye of Gardena-resident Tracy Velasquez, who traveled to the Pen Show with Ramsey and another friend, Jennifer Harford. Velasquez has nearly 100 pens in her collection. Her favorite is also a Benu Euphoria, a gift from her husband called Vodka on the Rocks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The resin body is striking, made from a silver luminescent resin and featuring multicolored holographic sparkles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I really like collecting things that are shiny,” Velasquez said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In contrast with her friends Ramsey and Velasquez, 38-year-old Harford of Berkeley owned exactly one: a Pilot fountain pen widely celebrated as an entry-level favorite. That was her entry down the rabbit hole that is fountain pen collecting, one her friends watch with affectionate excitement. They traveled north just to see her eyes agog at the crowds and the vast array of pens on display at the S.F. Pen Show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097875\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-1-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A display case of Ogivas at the S.F. Pen Show in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 28, 2026, showcases materials and techniques that evoke the hundred-year history of Italian pen maker OMAS. The old world is still there. It just has more glitter. (Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“My fiancé bought me my first pen and ink, and so he was kind of the one to push me into it,” she said. “And once I had that start, then I was like, I see what the hype is.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.capenshow.com/\">California Pen Show\u003c/a>, held near Los Angeles each February, also has a particularly strong West Coast presence, but if the presence of Southern Californians at the Westin was any indication, the two shows complement each other as much as they compete. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s true for Fernanda Izidorio, who lives in Los Angeles and owns about 40 pens. She said the trip north is as much about community as it is machinery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Izidorio is a member of the Greater Los Angeles Metro Pen & Ink Group, or Glampig, which has a presence on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/glampig_club/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and Discord, as well as IRL groups that meet in L.A. and Orange counties. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097574\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00109_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Michael Hochstetler hovers a magnifying glass over a fountain pen at Michael’s Fat Boy pen booth at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 30, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-6 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" data-id=\"12097877\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097877\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-3-KQED.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/RainingFountainPens-RM-3-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Fernanda Izidorio is a member of the Greater Los Angeles Metro Pen & Ink Group, or Glampig, which has presence on Instagram and Discord, as well as IRL groups that meet in L.A. and Orange counties. “I actually really like meeting people in person,” Izidorio said. (Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12097596\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00237_TV-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097596\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00237_TV-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00237_TV-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260830-itsrainingfountainpens-00237_TV-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Attendees browse at the San Francisco International Pen Show at The Westin San Francisco Airport in Millbrae, California, on Aug. 30, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I actually really like meeting people in person,” Izidorio said. “It is, in a way, online. We get to contact each other, communicate through Discord. But then we actually meet in person and try pens. That’s very fun.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are careers in this universe beyond manufacturing and retail. Nik Pang, 43, for instance, is a \u003ca href=\"https://entropy.ink\">professional calligrapher\u003c/a> who repairs and sells vintage pens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pang and his wife have imposed a hard “cap” on his personal collection: 700 pens and pen-like objects. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About 500 of them, he said, aren’t particularly useful for writing, but he’s interested in the history of the technology. His wife once asked him a morbidly useful question: If their house were burning, and he had time to save just a few pens, which ones would he take?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Two of them are family heirlooms. His grandfather’s fountain pen was a Parker Duofold, commemorating 30 years on the police force. His father’s was a Parker 75, used while earning his doctorate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s part of what makes the fountain-pen revival so multifaceted. The appeal is craftsmanship, as well as beauty, style and the pleasure of finding a community that draws in people from multiple generations, across the globe.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "california-food-banks-brace-for-slow-moving-avalanche-of-snap-cuts",
"title": "California Food Banks Brace for Slow-Moving Avalanche of SNAP Cuts",
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"headTitle": "California Food Banks Brace for Slow-Moving Avalanche of SNAP Cuts | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of How We Get By, a KQED series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. Find the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>full series here\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Food banks across California, already strained and serving millions of people each month, are bracing for a rolling crisis of even deeper need as unprecedented federal cuts to food assistance begin to take effect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rule changes enacted by the Trump administration restricting who is eligible for the federal Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program are expected to put more than 650,000 people at risk of losing that support in California, where the program is known as CalFresh, over the next several months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The program’s recipients, more than five million in California, receive an average of $190 per person each month, which is loaded onto an electronic benefit transfer card that can be used to buy groceries. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091827\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bags full of fresh produce rest on a rolling tray at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Without direct monthly payments through SNAP — widely considered the most effective anti-hunger program in the nation — more people are likely to turn to food banks and charities for help, at levels beyond what those systems say they can handle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We cannot food bank our way out of the problem that is being caused by the dismantling of SNAP. We need policies that are going to work to end hunger. What we have are policies that are creating hunger,” Tanis Crosby, executive director of the San Francisco-Marin Food Bank, said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The $187 billion in SNAP cuts planned over a decade are a major tenet of H.R. 1, the federal tax bill signed into law by President Donald Trump in 2025. They represent one part of what some anti-hunger advocates have described as a broader assault on foundational aid systems that will have devastating impacts on people struggling to make ends meet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In its push to tighten the grip on these lifeline benefits, the Trump administration has claimed there is rampant fraud and waste across the sprawling SNAP program. However, reporting has shown top officials often \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/snap-payment-errors-food-stamps-fraud-2026/\">conflate\u003c/a> administrative errors, like overpaying or underpaying a recipient for a variety of reasons, with intentional fraud, and there’s a lack of clear data about how pervasive fraud actually is in the system. The program already has robust checks and quality control measures, and some \u003ca href=\"https://civileats.com/2026/06/15/how-accurate-are-the-usdas-claims-over-snap-fraud/\">reports\u003c/a> say the narratives being built by federal leaders are weakening trust in safety net services, making them easier to pare back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s not just morally wrong, it’s bad policy,” said Jared Call, the director of public policy and advocacy at California Food Banks, an association of 43 food banks serving all 58 counties in the state. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Food is a basic building block for success and good health. An investment in nutrition is an investment in people’s preventative health. And we’re seeing attacks on the healthcare system and on basic needs like food assistance at the same time. It’s not only causing unnecessary suffering, it’s short-sighted in terms of investing in people and investing in the country’s success,” Call said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even without factoring in the looming cuts, food bank leaders around California said they’re serving more people than they ever have before, as costs have steadily increased for food, utilities, childcare and healthcare, while the United States’ and Israel’s war with Iran has spiked already-high gas prices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Recent survey data from a partnership between California Food Banks and the \u003ca href=\"https://datacatalog.urban.org/dataset/well-being-and-basic-needs-survey\">Urban Institute\u003c/a> indicates that in 2025, one out of four adults in California experienced food insecurity, and that number increased to one in three adults with children in their home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The survey helped create a baseline of 2025 food insecurity data in the wake of the Trump administration ending a 30-year annual USDA \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/trump-cut-food-security-survey-could-make-measuring-us-hunger-harder-2026-07-09/\">food insecurity survey\u003c/a> last year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About 20% of all adults surveyed in the state reported receiving food from the charitable food system, including almost a third of households earning up to 400% of the federal poverty level, which is about $132,000 annually for a family of four.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091825\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">René Campos hugs his wife Carina Moya Martínez Campos at their home in San José on July 16, 2026. René got Valley Fever last year, which he thinks he developed while working as a truck driver, and Carina works part-time as a house cleaner. The couple relies heavily on food banks to alleviate spending costs. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>René Campos has leaned on a local food bank near his home in East San José over the last six months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Campos has been a commercial truck driver for more than 25 years, earning several specialty licenses allowing him to transport larger loads and operate tankers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His most recent job was with FedEx Ground, where he drove daily hauls from the Bay Area to near Bakersfield and back, until he contracted Valley Fever last year, a disease stemming from breathing in fungi in the soil. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The illness hit him hard, bringing on pneumonia and other issues that forced him into the hospital for a month and kept him out of work on disability. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It was devastating. I would’ve never thought that something like that would ever happen to me, you know?” Campos said in an interview. “It really changed my life economically, physically and everything.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091831\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Tri-City volunteer checks clients in during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He and his wife, Carina Moya Martínez Campos, who works about three days a week cleaning homes and businesses, visit a food distribution site at a church around once a week, where they pick up vegetables, chicken, beans and other staples provided by Second Harvest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The lines at their pickup site have been getting longer, something other food bank clients and officials also noted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Together, they earn a little too much for benefits like SNAP, but they need assistance to make ends meet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Martinez Campos said she enjoys her husband’s cooking with the food they receive, including tuna salads with jalapeño, and an occasional carrot cake, his specialty. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m grateful that we live in a country where there’s help,” Campos said. “It’s a blessing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1385\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091826\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED-1536x1064.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A rack full of snack bags and hygiene products for homeless clients at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the state’s network of food banks is facing increased pressure, in part due to the same challenges affecting residents, such as reduced federal food support and rising costs for transportation and fuel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And that, combined with the largest SNAP cuts in the history of the program … are combining to really be a perfect storm to cause this surge in need that has started and that we expect to really accelerate over the next few months,” Call said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those price pressures are particularly acute in the Bay Area, home to some of the widest \u003ca href=\"https://www.svcf.org/about/news-media/blog/state-of-the-valley-great-wealth-flat-job-growth-and-the-wealth-gap-is-worse-than-ever\">income gaps\u003c/a> in the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shobana Gubbi, the chief philanthropy officer of Second Harvest of Silicon Valley, a major food bank serving Santa Clara and San Mateo counties, said that as income inequality has grown, the need for food assistance has increased as well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It affects everyone, but they hit lower-income households especially hard,” Gubbi said of rising costs. “Food becomes the flex item in people’s budget, and it’s a lot of pressure for low-income households on how to make it to the next paycheck,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091834\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left, Tri-City volunteers Arielle Asino, Michelle Nguyen and Michele Sayre load food into a client’s car at Tri-City’s Food Bank & Mobile Pantry main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some changes in the law have already taken effect, including a provision in April that booted certain groups of noncitizens out of CalFresh, including refugees or asylees, parolees and victims of violence or trafficking, according to the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The bigger proportion of cuts went into effect on paper in June, with work or volunteerism requirements of 20 hours a week expanding to people as old as 64, instead of the previous age of 54. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Able-bodied adults caring for dependents were previously exempt from the work requirements until those dependents turned 18. Now, the exemption ends when those dependents are 14 or older. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If those work requirements aren’t met, food assistance must be limited to three months during any three-year period. California previously held an exemption, like many other states, from those time-limit restrictions, but the new law has effectively ended that broad cover. The new changes also eliminate exemptions for former foster youth, veterans, and unhoused people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the changes will happen on a rolling basis, as annual recertification deadlines come up for people enrolled. Officials said they expect the impacts to become more visible around October and continue into next year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091830\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Billie Kallberg waits in line during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Food bank officials say the majority of people receiving CalFresh benefits are people who are hard-working, some with multiple jobs, while others are caring for a family member, and others are on fixed incomes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California Food Banks, using a model from the United Way reflecting the true costs of living in the state, created a \u003ca href=\"https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/cafb.research/viz/shared/P5RC7XD88\">new data dashboard\u003c/a> earlier this year that focused on potential need for food assistance. It shows that for roughly 40% of the population, “the cost of basic needs in their community exceeds their income,” which could push them toward food banks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The design of H.R. 1 is a slow drip, a slow, complicated implementation,” Crosby, with the San Francisco-Marin Food Bank, said. “It will then bury people in paperwork and bury states in new expenses and bury people in rules and requirements and make it much harder to get. So it is a slow-moving avalanche with sharp consequences that will be hidden,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even in Republican strongholds where President Donald Trump won by significant margins, the cuts have prompted pushback and concern. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kelly Lowery, executive director of the Community Action Partnership Food Bank in reliably red Kern County, said the Trump administration’s aim to change the law to ostensibly reduce waste and fraud is a good goal, but he and other food bank leaders up and down the state say the cuts are wrongheaded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091829\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Clients wait in their cars during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is in some ways a throwing the baby out with the bath water type of situation, where you’re trying to solve an issue and in doing so, we’re creating layers of other issues,” Lowery said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Lowery’s service area, an 8,000 square-mile county, roughly 100,000 households are enrolled in CalFresh, and county officials expect about 30,000 of them to lose benefits in the coming months. About half already lean on food banks, and will likely need deeper levels of assistance, while the other half are estimated to have never used such services but may soon need them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The charitable food system is a safety net; it’s not designed to be the tip of the spear in hunger relief,” he said. “We just do not possess the resources that are needed to be able to make up that difference.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Lowery said his team will keep serving people in need. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There is a Haitian proverb that says, if there’s food for one, there’s food for two,” he said. “It might mean that some families who are used to getting a certain level of support might be getting a little bit less in order to make room for more…But what we’re not going to do is turn people away.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1317\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091835\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED-160x105.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED-1536x1011.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Linda Leu, executive director of Tri-City Volunteers, poses for a photo at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Fremont, one of the wealthier enclaves of the East Bay, Linda Leu runs the Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank, which the Alameda County Community Food Bank supports. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The food bank added a sixth day of distribution to its calendar this summer to meet increased need, which Leu attributes in part to the law changes affecting noncitizens that began in April. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We only allow clients to pick up twice a month and there’s been a lot of people that come for a third time or a fourth time saying they just need more food,” she said. “We were never designed to be anyone’s sole source of food, but I think we have sort of become that.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ladonna Johnson, 33, has lived in Fremont for 12 years. She comes to the food bank often because of the high cost of groceries and rent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Just the pricing, it’s too high. It’s way too high, and I’m struggling with that. And then my mom’s not doing so well, so I have to take care of her as well, and that’s also digging into my pockets,” Johnson said on a sunny Friday morning after picking up a bag full of vegetables, chicken and eggs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1204\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091828\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED-160x96.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED-1536x925.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A checklist of what clients will receive at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub is posted at the site in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her work as a veterinary technician at a spay and neuter clinic is based on demand, so her hours fluctuate, making it difficult to apply for benefits like SNAP, and even harder to plan a budget. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Billie Kallberg, 73, called Tri-City Volunteers “lifesavers,” and said she comes about once a month to ensure there is enough food at home for herself and her 80-year-old husband, who became ill in recent years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We live on Social Security, and it’s been extremely hard,” Kallberg said, holding back tears. “I don’t know what we would have done without them.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The food bank is located on a small side street in central Fremont, a bit out of sight for many residents who don’t use the service, like the issue of food insecurity itself, Leu said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think that most people don’t realize how easy it is to become food insecure,” Leu said. “There is this perception that we don’t have hunger here. And I think people also don’t realize that in a community like this, everything costs more. The cost of living is so much higher here that it’s harder to be poor here, and there are so many fewer resources,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>State leaders have worked to backfill some of the anticipated cuts to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in this year’s budget to help food banks buy California-grown food, help counties respond to the new work requirements, and to support some noncitizens who have already been impacted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But food bank leaders, while they are ramping up efforts to increase service, agree pressure must be kept on Congress and other elected officials to undo the cuts to SNAP, saying it is a critical program on a scale that can’t be easily replicated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last fall, communities big and small caught a glimpse of what a loss of benefits meant for millions around the state, when a federal government shutdown delayed SNAP payments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Michael Flood, CEO of the Los Angeles Regional Food Bank, said it was a “disaster type of event” for about 1.5 million residents in his area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Arguably some of the most vulnerable people in our community here were cut off of benefits at that time, and we absolutely saw a surge in demand,” Flood said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But even compared to a year like 2025, which saw major fires devastate densely populated swaths of the region, and the delayed SNAP benefits, Flood said the need is still just as high in 2026. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So it gives you a sense that, wow, there is really no letup, and that’s without some of the impacts we’re talking about with regards to H.R. 1 heavily coming,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260717_FoodBanksUpdate_GC-16_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095654\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260717_FoodBanksUpdate_GC-16_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260717_FoodBanksUpdate_GC-16_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260717_FoodBanksUpdate_GC-16_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Tri-City volunteer Hillary Nguyen, right, loads food into Ladonna Johnson’s car at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That need is being felt all across California, from its rural pockets to its urban centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the farthest northern reaches of the state, Del Norte County has one of the higher CalFresh participation rates in the state, with about one of every four residents enrolled, compared to about one of every seven across the state as a whole, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://ucdavis.app.box.com/s/eplylnar0l5ipuo1133faf8bqk70wzok\">UC Davis research paper\u003c/a>. The paper found that food insecurity in places that have limited job opportunities, like Del Norte, is likely to get worse in the wake of H.R. 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s not making my life more difficult. It’s making everybody else’s that needs this difficult because they’re already under enough stress,” said Angel Carter, who runs a food bank program in the county. “Our services are very demanding and of high necessity.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said her clients — including many who are homeless, have disabilities or are elderly — panicked last fall during the shutdown, and she and her small team worked to reassure them there would be food for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I honestly think our government needs to come in and work at a food bank for a week,” she said, “and maybe they’ll give us some extra funding instead of just saying, ‘Oh no, we’re going to cut you.’”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of How We Get By, a KQED series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. Find the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>full series here\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Food banks across California, already strained and serving millions of people each month, are bracing for a rolling crisis of even deeper need as unprecedented federal cuts to food assistance begin to take effect.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rule changes enacted by the Trump administration restricting who is eligible for the federal Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program are expected to put more than 650,000 people at risk of losing that support in California, where the program is known as CalFresh, over the next several months. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Rule changes enacted by the Trump administration restricting who is eligible for the federal Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program are expected to put more than 650,000 people at risk of losing that support in California, where the program is known as CalFresh, over the next several months. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The program’s recipients, more than five million in California, receive an average of $190 per person each month, which is loaded onto an electronic benefit transfer card that can be used to buy groceries. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The program’s recipients, more than five million in California, receive an average of $190 per person each month, which is loaded onto an electronic benefit transfer card that can be used to buy groceries. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091827\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bags full of fresh produce rest on a rolling tray at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091827\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bags full of fresh produce rest on a rolling tray at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Without direct monthly payments through SNAP — widely considered the most effective anti-hunger program in the nation — more people are likely to turn to food banks and charities for help, at levels beyond what those systems say they can handle.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Without direct monthly payments through SNAP — widely considered the most effective anti-hunger program in the nation — more people are likely to turn to food banks and charities for help, at levels beyond what those systems say they can handle.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We cannot food bank our way out of the problem that is being caused by the dismantling of SNAP. We need policies that are going to work to end hunger. What we have are policies that are creating hunger,” Tanis Crosby, executive director of the San Francisco-Marin Food Bank, said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The $187 billion in SNAP cuts planned over a decade are a major tenet of H.R. 1, the federal tax bill signed into law by President Donald Trump in 2025. They represent one part of what some anti-hunger advocates have described as a broader assault on foundational aid systems that will have devastating impacts on people struggling to make ends meet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The $187 billion in SNAP cuts planned over a decade are a major tenet of H.R. 1, the federal tax bill signed into law by President Donald Trump in 2025. They represent one part of what some anti-hunger advocates have described as a broader assault on foundational aid systems that will have devastating impacts on people struggling to make ends meet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In its push to tighten the grip on these lifeline benefits, the Trump administration has claimed there is rampant fraud and waste across the sprawling SNAP program. However, reporting has shown top officials often \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/snap-payment-errors-food-stamps-fraud-2026/\">conflate\u003c/a> administrative errors, like overpaying or underpaying a recipient for a variety of reasons, with intentional fraud, and there’s a lack of clear data about how pervasive fraud actually is in the system. The program already has robust checks and quality control measures, and some \u003ca href=\"https://civileats.com/2026/06/15/how-accurate-are-the-usdas-claims-over-snap-fraud/\">reports\u003c/a> say the narratives being built by federal leaders are weakening trust in safety net services, making them easier to pare back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In its push to tighten the grip on these lifeline benefits, the Trump administration has claimed there is rampant fraud and waste across the sprawling SNAP program. However, reporting has shown top officials often \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/snap-payment-errors-food-stamps-fraud-2026/\">conflate\u003c/a> administrative errors, like overpaying or underpaying a recipient for a variety of reasons, with intentional fraud, and there’s a lack of clear data about how pervasive fraud actually is in the system. The program already has robust checks and quality control measures, and some \u003ca href=\"https://civileats.com/2026/06/15/how-accurate-are-the-usdas-claims-over-snap-fraud/\">reports\u003c/a> say the narratives being built by federal leaders are weakening trust in safety net services, making them easier to pare back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s not just morally wrong, it’s bad policy,” said Jared Call, the director of public policy and advocacy at California Food Banks, an association of 43 food banks serving all 58 counties in the state. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s not just morally wrong, it’s bad policy,” said Jared Call, the director of public policy and advocacy at California Food Banks, an association of 43 food banks serving all 58 counties in the state. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Food is a basic building block for success and good health. An investment in nutrition is an investment in people’s preventative health. And we’re seeing attacks on the healthcare system and on basic needs like food assistance at the same time. It’s not only causing unnecessary suffering, it’s short-sighted in terms of investing in people and investing in the country’s success,” Call said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Food is a basic building block for success and good health. An investment in nutrition is an investment in people’s preventative health. And we’re seeing attacks on the healthcare system and on basic needs like food assistance at the same time. It’s not only causing unnecessary suffering, it’s short-sighted in terms of investing in people and investing in the country’s success,” Call said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Even without factoring in the looming cuts, food bank leaders around California said they’re serving more people than they ever have before, as costs have steadily increased for food, utilities, childcare and healthcare, while the United States’ and Israel’s war with Iran has spiked already-high gas prices. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Even without factoring in the looming cuts, food bank leaders around California said they’re serving more people than they ever have before, as costs have steadily increased for food, utilities, childcare and healthcare, while the United States’ and Israel’s war with Iran has spiked already-high gas prices. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Recent survey data from a partnership between California Food Banks and the \u003ca href=\"https://datacatalog.urban.org/dataset/well-being-and-basic-needs-survey\">Urban Institute\u003c/a> indicates that in 2025, one out of four adults in California experienced food insecurity, and that number increased to one in three adults with children in their home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Recent survey data from a partnership between California Food Banks and the \u003ca href=\"https://datacatalog.urban.org/dataset/well-being-and-basic-needs-survey\">Urban Institute\u003c/a> indicates that in 2025, one out of four adults in California experienced food insecurity, and that number increased to one in three adults with children in their home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The survey helped create a baseline of 2025 food insecurity data in the wake of the Trump administration ending a 30-year annual USDA \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/trump-cut-food-security-survey-could-make-measuring-us-hunger-harder-2026-07-09/\">food insecurity survey\u003c/a> last year.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>About 20% of all adults surveyed in the state reported receiving food from the charitable food system, including almost a third of households earning up to 400% of the federal poverty level, which is about $132,000 annually for a family of four.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091825\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">René Campos hugs his wife Carina Moya Martínez Campos at their home in San José on July 16, 2026. René got Valley Fever last year, which he thinks he developed while working as a truck driver, and Carina works part-time as a house cleaner. The couple relies heavily on food banks to alleviate spending costs.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091825\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">René Campos hugs his wife Carina Moya Martínez Campos at their home in San José on July 16, 2026. René got Valley Fever last year, which he thinks he developed while working as a truck driver, and Carina works part-time as a house cleaner. The couple relies heavily on food banks to alleviate spending costs.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>René Campos has leaned on a local food bank near his home in East San José over the last six months. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Campos has been a commercial truck driver for more than 25 years, earning several specialty licenses allowing him to transport larger loads and operate tankers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His most recent job was with FedEx Ground, where he drove daily hauls from the Bay Area to near Bakersfield and back, until he contracted Valley Fever last year, a disease stemming from breathing in fungi in the soil. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The illness hit him hard, bringing on pneumonia and other issues that forced him into the hospital for a month and kept him out of work on disability. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It was devastating. I would’ve never thought that something like that would ever happen to me, you know?” Campos said in an interview. “It really changed my life economically, physically and everything.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It was devastating. I would’ve never thought that something like that would ever happen to me, you know?” Campos said in an interview. “It really changed my life economically, physically and everything.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091831\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Tri-City volunteer checks clients in during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091831\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Tri-City volunteer checks clients in during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He and his wife, Carina Moya Martínez Campos, who works about three days a week cleaning homes and businesses, visit a food distribution site at a church around once a week, where they pick up vegetables, chicken, beans and other staples provided by Second Harvest. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He and his wife, Carina Moya Martínez Campos, who works about three days a week cleaning homes and businesses, visit a food distribution site at a church around once a week, where they pick up vegetables, chicken, beans and other staples provided by Second Harvest. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The lines at their pickup site have been getting longer, something other food bank clients and officials also noted. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Together, they earn a little too much for benefits like SNAP, but they need assistance to make ends meet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Together, they earn a little too much for benefits like SNAP, but they need assistance to make ends meet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Martinez Campos said she enjoys her husband’s cooking with the food they receive, including tuna salads with jalapeño, and an occasional carrot cake, his specialty. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Martinez Campos said she enjoys her husband’s cooking with the food they receive, including tuna salads with jalapeño, and an occasional carrot cake, his specialty. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I’m grateful that we live in a country where there’s help,” Campos said. “It’s a blessing.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091826\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED-1536x1064.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A rack full of snack bags and hygiene products for homeless clients at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091826\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A rack full of snack bags and hygiene products for homeless clients at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the state’s network of food banks is facing increased pressure, in part due to the same challenges affecting residents, such as reduced federal food support and rising costs for transportation and fuel. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“And that, combined with the largest SNAP cuts in the history of the program … are combining to really be a perfect storm to cause this surge in need that has started and that we expect to really accelerate over the next few months,” Call said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“And that, combined with the largest SNAP cuts in the history of the program … are combining to really be a perfect storm to cause this surge in need that has started and that we expect to really accelerate over the next few months,” Call said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those price pressures are particularly acute in the Bay Area, home to some of the widest \u003ca href=\"https://www.svcf.org/about/news-media/blog/state-of-the-valley-great-wealth-flat-job-growth-and-the-wealth-gap-is-worse-than-ever\">income gaps\u003c/a> in the country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Those price pressures are particularly acute in the Bay Area, home to some of the widest \u003ca href=\"https://www.svcf.org/about/news-media/blog/state-of-the-valley-great-wealth-flat-job-growth-and-the-wealth-gap-is-worse-than-ever\">income gaps\u003c/a> in the country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Shobana Gubbi, the chief philanthropy officer of Second Harvest of Silicon Valley, a major food bank serving Santa Clara and San Mateo counties, said that as income inequality has grown, the need for food assistance has increased as well. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Shobana Gubbi, the chief philanthropy officer of Second Harvest of Silicon Valley, a major food bank serving Santa Clara and San Mateo counties, said that as income inequality has grown, the need for food assistance has increased as well. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It affects everyone, but they hit lower-income households especially hard,” Gubbi said of rising costs. “Food becomes the flex item in people’s budget, and it’s a lot of pressure for low-income households on how to make it to the next paycheck,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It affects everyone, but they hit lower-income households especially hard,” Gubbi said of rising costs. “Food becomes the flex item in people’s budget, and it’s a lot of pressure for low-income households on how to make it to the next paycheck,” she said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091834\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left, Tri-City volunteers Arielle Asino, Michelle Nguyen and Michele Sayre load food into a client’s car at Tri-City’s Food Bank & Mobile Pantry main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091834\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left, Tri-City volunteers Arielle Asino, Michelle Nguyen and Michele Sayre load food into a client’s car at Tri-City’s Food Bank & Mobile Pantry main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some changes in the law have already taken effect, including a provision in April that booted certain groups of noncitizens out of CalFresh, including refugees or asylees, parolees and victims of violence or trafficking, according to the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some changes in the law have already taken effect, including a provision in April that booted certain groups of noncitizens out of CalFresh, including refugees or asylees, parolees and victims of violence or trafficking, according to the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The bigger proportion of cuts went into effect on paper in June, with work or volunteerism requirements of 20 hours a week expanding to people as old as 64, instead of the previous age of 54. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The bigger proportion of cuts went into effect on paper in June, with work or volunteerism requirements of 20 hours a week expanding to people as old as 64, instead of the previous age of 54. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Able-bodied adults caring for dependents were previously exempt from the work requirements until those dependents turned 18. Now, the exemption ends when those dependents are 14 or older. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Able-bodied adults caring for dependents were previously exempt from the work requirements until those dependents turned 18. Now, the exemption ends when those dependents are 14 or older. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If those work requirements aren’t met, food assistance must be limited to three months during any three-year period. California previously held an exemption, like many other states, from those time-limit restrictions, but the new law has effectively ended that broad cover. The new changes also eliminate exemptions for former foster youth, veterans, and unhoused people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If those work requirements aren’t met, food assistance must be limited to three months during any three-year period. California previously held an exemption, like many other states, from those time-limit restrictions, but the new law has effectively ended that broad cover. The new changes also eliminate exemptions for former foster youth, veterans, and unhoused people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many of the changes will happen on a rolling basis, as annual recertification deadlines come up for people enrolled. Officials said they expect the impacts to become more visible around October and continue into next year. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Many of the changes will happen on a rolling basis, as annual recertification deadlines come up for people enrolled. Officials said they expect the impacts to become more visible around October and continue into next year. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091830\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Billie Kallberg waits in line during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091830\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Billie Kallberg waits in line during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Food bank officials say the majority of people receiving CalFresh benefits are people who are hard-working, some with multiple jobs, while others are caring for a family member, and others are on fixed incomes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>California Food Banks, using a model from the United Way reflecting the true costs of living in the state, created a \u003ca href=\"https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/cafb.research/viz/shared/P5RC7XD88\">new data dashboard\u003c/a> earlier this year that focused on potential need for food assistance. It shows that for roughly 40% of the population, “the cost of basic needs in their community exceeds their income,” which could push them toward food banks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>California Food Banks, using a model from the United Way reflecting the true costs of living in the state, created a \u003ca href=\"https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/cafb.research/viz/shared/P5RC7XD88\">new data dashboard\u003c/a> earlier this year that focused on potential need for food assistance. It shows that for roughly 40% of the population, “the cost of basic needs in their community exceeds their income,” which could push them toward food banks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The design of H.R. 1 is a slow drip, a slow, complicated implementation,” Crosby, with the San Francisco-Marin Food Bank, said. “It will then bury people in paperwork and bury states in new expenses and bury people in rules and requirements and make it much harder to get. So it is a slow-moving avalanche with sharp consequences that will be hidden,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Even in Republican strongholds where President Donald Trump won by significant margins, the cuts have prompted pushback and concern. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kelly Lowery, executive director of the Community Action Partnership Food Bank in reliably red Kern County, said the Trump administration’s aim to change the law to ostensibly reduce waste and fraud is a good goal, but he and other food bank leaders up and down the state say the cuts are wrongheaded. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kelly Lowery, executive director of the Community Action Partnership Food Bank in reliably red Kern County, said the Trump administration’s aim to change the law to ostensibly reduce waste and fraud is a good goal, but he and other food bank leaders up and down the state say the cuts are wrongheaded. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091829\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Clients wait in their cars during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091829\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Clients wait in their cars during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This is in some ways a throwing the baby out with the bath water type of situation, where you’re trying to solve an issue and in doing so, we’re creating layers of other issues,” Lowery said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In Lowery’s service area, an 8,000 square-mile county, roughly 100,000 households are enrolled in CalFresh, and county officials expect about 30,000 of them to lose benefits in the coming months. About half already lean on food banks, and will likely need deeper levels of assistance, while the other half are estimated to have never used such services but may soon need them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In Lowery’s service area, an 8,000 square-mile county, roughly 100,000 households are enrolled in CalFresh, and county officials expect about 30,000 of them to lose benefits in the coming months. About half already lean on food banks, and will likely need deeper levels of assistance, while the other half are estimated to have never used such services but may soon need them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The charitable food system is a safety net; it’s not designed to be the tip of the spear in hunger relief,” he said. “We just do not possess the resources that are needed to be able to make up that difference.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Lowery said his team will keep serving people in need. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There is a Haitian proverb that says, if there’s food for one, there’s food for two,” he said. “It might mean that some families who are used to getting a certain level of support might be getting a little bit less in order to make room for more…But what we’re not going to do is turn people away.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“There is a Haitian proverb that says, if there’s food for one, there’s food for two,” he said. “It might mean that some families who are used to getting a certain level of support might be getting a little bit less in order to make room for more…But what we’re not going to do is turn people away.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091835\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED-160x105.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED-1536x1011.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Linda Leu, executive director of Tri-City Volunteers, poses for a photo at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091835\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Linda Leu, executive director of Tri-City Volunteers, poses for a photo at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In Fremont, one of the wealthier enclaves of the East Bay, Linda Leu runs the Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank, which the Alameda County Community Food Bank supports. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The food bank added a sixth day of distribution to its calendar this summer to meet increased need, which Leu attributes in part to the law changes affecting noncitizens that began in April. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We only allow clients to pick up twice a month and there’s been a lot of people that come for a third time or a fourth time saying they just need more food,” she said. “We were never designed to be anyone’s sole source of food, but I think we have sort of become that.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We only allow clients to pick up twice a month and there’s been a lot of people that come for a third time or a fourth time saying they just need more food,” she said. “We were never designed to be anyone’s sole source of food, but I think we have sort of become that.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ladonna Johnson, 33, has lived in Fremont for 12 years. She comes to the food bank often because of the high cost of groceries and rent. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ladonna Johnson, 33, has lived in Fremont for 12 years. She comes to the food bank often because of the high cost of groceries and rent. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Just the pricing, it’s too high. It’s way too high, and I’m struggling with that. And then my mom’s not doing so well, so I have to take care of her as well, and that’s also digging into my pockets,” Johnson said on a sunny Friday morning after picking up a bag full of vegetables, chicken and eggs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Just the pricing, it’s too high. It’s way too high, and I’m struggling with that. And then my mom’s not doing so well, so I have to take care of her as well, and that’s also digging into my pockets,” Johnson said on a sunny Friday morning after picking up a bag full of vegetables, chicken and eggs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091828\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED-160x96.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED-1536x925.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A checklist of what clients will receive at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub is posted at the site in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Her work as a veterinary technician at a spay and neuter clinic is based on demand, so her hours fluctuate, making it difficult to apply for benefits like SNAP, and even harder to plan a budget. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Billie Kallberg, 73, called Tri-City Volunteers “lifesavers,” and said she comes about once a month to ensure there is enough food at home for herself and her 80-year-old husband, who became ill in recent years. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Billie Kallberg, 73, called Tri-City Volunteers “lifesavers,” and said she comes about once a month to ensure there is enough food at home for herself and her 80-year-old husband, who became ill in recent years. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We live on Social Security, and it’s been extremely hard,” Kallberg said, holding back tears. “I don’t know what we would have done without them.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The food bank is located on a small side street in central Fremont, a bit out of sight for many residents who don’t use the service, like the issue of food insecurity itself, Leu said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think that most people don’t realize how easy it is to become food insecure,” Leu said. “There is this perception that we don’t have hunger here. And I think people also don’t realize that in a community like this, everything costs more. The cost of living is so much higher here that it’s harder to be poor here, and there are so many fewer resources,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>State leaders have worked to backfill some of the anticipated cuts to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in this year’s budget to help food banks buy California-grown food, help counties respond to the new work requirements, and to support some noncitizens who have already been impacted. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But food bank leaders, while they are ramping up efforts to increase service, agree pressure must be kept on Congress and other elected officials to undo the cuts to SNAP, saying it is a critical program on a scale that can’t be easily replicated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But food bank leaders, while they are ramping up efforts to increase service, agree pressure must be kept on Congress and other elected officials to undo the cuts to SNAP, saying it is a critical program on a scale that can’t be easily replicated. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Last fall, communities big and small caught a glimpse of what a loss of benefits meant for millions around the state, when a federal government shutdown delayed SNAP payments. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Michael Flood, CEO of the Los Angeles Regional Food Bank, said it was a “disaster type of event” for about 1.5 million residents in his area. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Arguably some of the most vulnerable people in our community here were cut off of benefits at that time, and we absolutely saw a surge in demand,” Flood said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Arguably some of the most vulnerable people in our community here were cut off of benefits at that time, and we absolutely saw a surge in demand,” Flood said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But even compared to a year like 2025, which saw major fires devastate densely populated swaths of the region, and the delayed SNAP benefits, Flood said the need is still just as high in 2026. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But even compared to a year like 2025, which saw major fires devastate densely populated swaths of the region, and the delayed SNAP benefits, Flood said the need is still just as high in 2026. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“So it gives you a sense that, wow, there is really no letup, and that’s without some of the impacts we’re talking about with regards to H.R. 1 heavily coming,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“So it gives you a sense that, wow, there is really no letup, and that’s without some of the impacts we’re talking about with regards to H.R. 1 heavily coming,” he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260717_FoodBanksUpdate_GC-16_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095654\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Tri-City volunteer Hillary Nguyen, right, loads food into Ladonna Johnson’s car at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That need is being felt all across California, from its rural pockets to its urban centers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the farthest northern reaches of the state, Del Norte County has one of the higher CalFresh participation rates in the state, with about one of every four residents enrolled, compared to about one of every seven across the state as a whole, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://ucdavis.app.box.com/s/eplylnar0l5ipuo1133faf8bqk70wzok\">UC Davis research paper\u003c/a>. The paper found that food insecurity in places that have limited job opportunities, like Del Norte, is likely to get worse in the wake of H.R. 1.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the farthest northern reaches of the state, Del Norte County has one of the higher CalFresh participation rates in the state, with about one of every four residents enrolled, compared to about one of every seven across the state as a whole, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://ucdavis.app.box.com/s/eplylnar0l5ipuo1133faf8bqk70wzok\">UC Davis research paper\u003c/a>. The paper found that food insecurity in places that have limited job opportunities, like Del Norte, is likely to get worse in the wake of H.R. 1.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s not making my life more difficult. It’s making everybody else’s that needs this difficult because they’re already under enough stress,” said Angel Carter, who runs a food bank program in the county. “Our services are very demanding and of high necessity.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s not making my life more difficult. It’s making everybody else’s that needs this difficult because they’re already under enough stress,” said Angel Carter, who runs a food bank program in the county. “Our services are very demanding and of high necessity.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She said her clients — including many who are homeless, have disabilities or are elderly — panicked last fall during the shutdown, and she and her small team worked to reassure them there would be food for them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She said her clients — including many who are homeless, have disabilities or are elderly — panicked last fall during the shutdown, and she and her small team worked to reassure them there would be food for them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I honestly think our government needs to come in and work at a food bank for a week,” she said, “and maybe they’ll give us some extra funding instead of just saying, ‘Oh no, we’re going to cut you.’”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I honestly think our government needs to come in and work at a food bank for a week,” she said, “and maybe they’ll give us some extra funding instead of just saying, ‘Oh no, we’re going to cut you.’”\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "An already strained network of food banks across California is bracing for even greater need due to federal food assistance cuts. ",
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"title": "California Food Banks Brace for Slow-Moving Avalanche of SNAP Cuts | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of How We Get By, a KQED series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. Find the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>full series here\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Food banks across California, already strained and serving millions of people each month, are bracing for a rolling crisis of even deeper need as unprecedented federal cuts to food assistance begin to take effect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rule changes enacted by the Trump administration restricting who is eligible for the federal Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program are expected to put more than 650,000 people at risk of losing that support in California, where the program is known as CalFresh, over the next several months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The program’s recipients, more than five million in California, receive an average of $190 per person each month, which is loaded onto an electronic benefit transfer card that can be used to buy groceries. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091827\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-8-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bags full of fresh produce rest on a rolling tray at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Without direct monthly payments through SNAP — widely considered the most effective anti-hunger program in the nation — more people are likely to turn to food banks and charities for help, at levels beyond what those systems say they can handle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We cannot food bank our way out of the problem that is being caused by the dismantling of SNAP. We need policies that are going to work to end hunger. What we have are policies that are creating hunger,” Tanis Crosby, executive director of the San Francisco-Marin Food Bank, said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The $187 billion in SNAP cuts planned over a decade are a major tenet of H.R. 1, the federal tax bill signed into law by President Donald Trump in 2025. They represent one part of what some anti-hunger advocates have described as a broader assault on foundational aid systems that will have devastating impacts on people struggling to make ends meet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In its push to tighten the grip on these lifeline benefits, the Trump administration has claimed there is rampant fraud and waste across the sprawling SNAP program. However, reporting has shown top officials often \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/snap-payment-errors-food-stamps-fraud-2026/\">conflate\u003c/a> administrative errors, like overpaying or underpaying a recipient for a variety of reasons, with intentional fraud, and there’s a lack of clear data about how pervasive fraud actually is in the system. The program already has robust checks and quality control measures, and some \u003ca href=\"https://civileats.com/2026/06/15/how-accurate-are-the-usdas-claims-over-snap-fraud/\">reports\u003c/a> say the narratives being built by federal leaders are weakening trust in safety net services, making them easier to pare back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s not just morally wrong, it’s bad policy,” said Jared Call, the director of public policy and advocacy at California Food Banks, an association of 43 food banks serving all 58 counties in the state. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Food is a basic building block for success and good health. An investment in nutrition is an investment in people’s preventative health. And we’re seeing attacks on the healthcare system and on basic needs like food assistance at the same time. It’s not only causing unnecessary suffering, it’s short-sighted in terms of investing in people and investing in the country’s success,” Call said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even without factoring in the looming cuts, food bank leaders around California said they’re serving more people than they ever have before, as costs have steadily increased for food, utilities, childcare and healthcare, while the United States’ and Israel’s war with Iran has spiked already-high gas prices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Recent survey data from a partnership between California Food Banks and the \u003ca href=\"https://datacatalog.urban.org/dataset/well-being-and-basic-needs-survey\">Urban Institute\u003c/a> indicates that in 2025, one out of four adults in California experienced food insecurity, and that number increased to one in three adults with children in their home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The survey helped create a baseline of 2025 food insecurity data in the wake of the Trump administration ending a 30-year annual USDA \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/trump-cut-food-security-survey-could-make-measuring-us-hunger-harder-2026-07-09/\">food insecurity survey\u003c/a> last year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About 20% of all adults surveyed in the state reported receiving food from the charitable food system, including almost a third of households earning up to 400% of the federal poverty level, which is about $132,000 annually for a family of four.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091825\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260716_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">René Campos hugs his wife Carina Moya Martínez Campos at their home in San José on July 16, 2026. René got Valley Fever last year, which he thinks he developed while working as a truck driver, and Carina works part-time as a house cleaner. The couple relies heavily on food banks to alleviate spending costs. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>René Campos has leaned on a local food bank near his home in East San José over the last six months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Campos has been a commercial truck driver for more than 25 years, earning several specialty licenses allowing him to transport larger loads and operate tankers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His most recent job was with FedEx Ground, where he drove daily hauls from the Bay Area to near Bakersfield and back, until he contracted Valley Fever last year, a disease stemming from breathing in fungi in the soil. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The illness hit him hard, bringing on pneumonia and other issues that forced him into the hospital for a month and kept him out of work on disability. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It was devastating. I would’ve never thought that something like that would ever happen to me, you know?” Campos said in an interview. “It really changed my life economically, physically and everything.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091831\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-12-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Tri-City volunteer checks clients in during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He and his wife, Carina Moya Martínez Campos, who works about three days a week cleaning homes and businesses, visit a food distribution site at a church around once a week, where they pick up vegetables, chicken, beans and other staples provided by Second Harvest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The lines at their pickup site have been getting longer, something other food bank clients and officials also noted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Together, they earn a little too much for benefits like SNAP, but they need assistance to make ends meet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Martinez Campos said she enjoys her husband’s cooking with the food they receive, including tuna salads with jalapeño, and an occasional carrot cake, his specialty. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m grateful that we live in a country where there’s help,” Campos said. “It’s a blessing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1385\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091826\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-6-KQED-1536x1064.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A rack full of snack bags and hygiene products for homeless clients at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the state’s network of food banks is facing increased pressure, in part due to the same challenges affecting residents, such as reduced federal food support and rising costs for transportation and fuel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And that, combined with the largest SNAP cuts in the history of the program … are combining to really be a perfect storm to cause this surge in need that has started and that we expect to really accelerate over the next few months,” Call said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those price pressures are particularly acute in the Bay Area, home to some of the widest \u003ca href=\"https://www.svcf.org/about/news-media/blog/state-of-the-valley-great-wealth-flat-job-growth-and-the-wealth-gap-is-worse-than-ever\">income gaps\u003c/a> in the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shobana Gubbi, the chief philanthropy officer of Second Harvest of Silicon Valley, a major food bank serving Santa Clara and San Mateo counties, said that as income inequality has grown, the need for food assistance has increased as well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It affects everyone, but they hit lower-income households especially hard,” Gubbi said of rising costs. “Food becomes the flex item in people’s budget, and it’s a lot of pressure for low-income households on how to make it to the next paycheck,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091834\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-19-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left, Tri-City volunteers Arielle Asino, Michelle Nguyen and Michele Sayre load food into a client’s car at Tri-City’s Food Bank & Mobile Pantry main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some changes in the law have already taken effect, including a provision in April that booted certain groups of noncitizens out of CalFresh, including refugees or asylees, parolees and victims of violence or trafficking, according to the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The bigger proportion of cuts went into effect on paper in June, with work or volunteerism requirements of 20 hours a week expanding to people as old as 64, instead of the previous age of 54. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Able-bodied adults caring for dependents were previously exempt from the work requirements until those dependents turned 18. Now, the exemption ends when those dependents are 14 or older. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If those work requirements aren’t met, food assistance must be limited to three months during any three-year period. California previously held an exemption, like many other states, from those time-limit restrictions, but the new law has effectively ended that broad cover. The new changes also eliminate exemptions for former foster youth, veterans, and unhoused people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the changes will happen on a rolling basis, as annual recertification deadlines come up for people enrolled. Officials said they expect the impacts to become more visible around October and continue into next year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091830\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Billie Kallberg waits in line during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Food bank officials say the majority of people receiving CalFresh benefits are people who are hard-working, some with multiple jobs, while others are caring for a family member, and others are on fixed incomes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California Food Banks, using a model from the United Way reflecting the true costs of living in the state, created a \u003ca href=\"https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/cafb.research/viz/shared/P5RC7XD88\">new data dashboard\u003c/a> earlier this year that focused on potential need for food assistance. It shows that for roughly 40% of the population, “the cost of basic needs in their community exceeds their income,” which could push them toward food banks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The design of H.R. 1 is a slow drip, a slow, complicated implementation,” Crosby, with the San Francisco-Marin Food Bank, said. “It will then bury people in paperwork and bury states in new expenses and bury people in rules and requirements and make it much harder to get. So it is a slow-moving avalanche with sharp consequences that will be hidden,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even in Republican strongholds where President Donald Trump won by significant margins, the cuts have prompted pushback and concern. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kelly Lowery, executive director of the Community Action Partnership Food Bank in reliably red Kern County, said the Trump administration’s aim to change the law to ostensibly reduce waste and fraud is a good goal, but he and other food bank leaders up and down the state say the cuts are wrongheaded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091829\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Clients wait in their cars during a drive-thru food distribution at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is in some ways a throwing the baby out with the bath water type of situation, where you’re trying to solve an issue and in doing so, we’re creating layers of other issues,” Lowery said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Lowery’s service area, an 8,000 square-mile county, roughly 100,000 households are enrolled in CalFresh, and county officials expect about 30,000 of them to lose benefits in the coming months. About half already lean on food banks, and will likely need deeper levels of assistance, while the other half are estimated to have never used such services but may soon need them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The charitable food system is a safety net; it’s not designed to be the tip of the spear in hunger relief,” he said. “We just do not possess the resources that are needed to be able to make up that difference.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Lowery said his team will keep serving people in need. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There is a Haitian proverb that says, if there’s food for one, there’s food for two,” he said. “It might mean that some families who are used to getting a certain level of support might be getting a little bit less in order to make room for more…But what we’re not going to do is turn people away.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1317\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091835\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED-160x105.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-20-KQED-1536x1011.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Linda Leu, executive director of Tri-City Volunteers, poses for a photo at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Fremont, one of the wealthier enclaves of the East Bay, Linda Leu runs the Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank, which the Alameda County Community Food Bank supports. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The food bank added a sixth day of distribution to its calendar this summer to meet increased need, which Leu attributes in part to the law changes affecting noncitizens that began in April. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We only allow clients to pick up twice a month and there’s been a lot of people that come for a third time or a fourth time saying they just need more food,” she said. “We were never designed to be anyone’s sole source of food, but I think we have sort of become that.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ladonna Johnson, 33, has lived in Fremont for 12 years. She comes to the food bank often because of the high cost of groceries and rent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Just the pricing, it’s too high. It’s way too high, and I’m struggling with that. And then my mom’s not doing so well, so I have to take care of her as well, and that’s also digging into my pockets,” Johnson said on a sunny Friday morning after picking up a bag full of vegetables, chicken and eggs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1204\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091828\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED-160x96.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260717_FOODBANKSUPDATE_GC-9-KQED-1536x925.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A checklist of what clients will receive at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub is posted at the site in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her work as a veterinary technician at a spay and neuter clinic is based on demand, so her hours fluctuate, making it difficult to apply for benefits like SNAP, and even harder to plan a budget. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Billie Kallberg, 73, called Tri-City Volunteers “lifesavers,” and said she comes about once a month to ensure there is enough food at home for herself and her 80-year-old husband, who became ill in recent years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We live on Social Security, and it’s been extremely hard,” Kallberg said, holding back tears. “I don’t know what we would have done without them.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The food bank is located on a small side street in central Fremont, a bit out of sight for many residents who don’t use the service, like the issue of food insecurity itself, Leu said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think that most people don’t realize how easy it is to become food insecure,” Leu said. “There is this perception that we don’t have hunger here. And I think people also don’t realize that in a community like this, everything costs more. The cost of living is so much higher here that it’s harder to be poor here, and there are so many fewer resources,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>State leaders have worked to backfill some of the anticipated cuts to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in this year’s budget to help food banks buy California-grown food, help counties respond to the new work requirements, and to support some noncitizens who have already been impacted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But food bank leaders, while they are ramping up efforts to increase service, agree pressure must be kept on Congress and other elected officials to undo the cuts to SNAP, saying it is a critical program on a scale that can’t be easily replicated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last fall, communities big and small caught a glimpse of what a loss of benefits meant for millions around the state, when a federal government shutdown delayed SNAP payments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Michael Flood, CEO of the Los Angeles Regional Food Bank, said it was a “disaster type of event” for about 1.5 million residents in his area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Arguably some of the most vulnerable people in our community here were cut off of benefits at that time, and we absolutely saw a surge in demand,” Flood said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But even compared to a year like 2025, which saw major fires devastate densely populated swaths of the region, and the delayed SNAP benefits, Flood said the need is still just as high in 2026. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So it gives you a sense that, wow, there is really no letup, and that’s without some of the impacts we’re talking about with regards to H.R. 1 heavily coming,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260717_FoodBanksUpdate_GC-16_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095654\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260717_FoodBanksUpdate_GC-16_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260717_FoodBanksUpdate_GC-16_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260717_FoodBanksUpdate_GC-16_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Tri-City volunteer Hillary Nguyen, right, loads food into Ladonna Johnson’s car at Tri-City Volunteers Food Bank & Mobile Pantry’s main hub in Fremont on July 17, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That need is being felt all across California, from its rural pockets to its urban centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the farthest northern reaches of the state, Del Norte County has one of the higher CalFresh participation rates in the state, with about one of every four residents enrolled, compared to about one of every seven across the state as a whole, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://ucdavis.app.box.com/s/eplylnar0l5ipuo1133faf8bqk70wzok\">UC Davis research paper\u003c/a>. The paper found that food insecurity in places that have limited job opportunities, like Del Norte, is likely to get worse in the wake of H.R. 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s not making my life more difficult. It’s making everybody else’s that needs this difficult because they’re already under enough stress,” said Angel Carter, who runs a food bank program in the county. “Our services are very demanding and of high necessity.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said her clients — including many who are homeless, have disabilities or are elderly — panicked last fall during the shutdown, and she and her small team worked to reassure them there would be food for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I honestly think our government needs to come in and work at a food bank for a week,” she said, “and maybe they’ll give us some extra funding instead of just saying, ‘Oh no, we’re going to cut you.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "ai-will-create-enormous-wealth-but-who-benefits-with-erik-brynjolfsson",
"title": "AI Will Create Enormous Wealth — But Who Benefits? with Erik Brynjolfsson",
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"headTitle": "AI Will Create Enormous Wealth — But Who Benefits? with Erik Brynjolfsson | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>AI is advancing at a breakneck pace, but how quickly will that \u003cstrong>actually\u003c/strong> transform the economy? Dream Machines hosts Alexis Madrigal and Robin Sloan talk to Stanford economist Erik Brynjolfsson about what the data can tell us so far, why previous technological revolutions took decades to reshape everyday life, and whether this time will be different. They discuss early signs that AI may already be affecting young workers, what happens to the career ladder when machines take over junior tasks, and where the biggest challenges — and opportunities — lie.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Guest: Erik Brynjolfsson, economist and Director of the \u003ca href=\"https://digitaleconomy.stanford.edu/\">Stanford Digital Economy Lab\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://youtu.be/5HI0RBP-jDk\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:00:00 – 00:00:06:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Is this a kind of technology that inherently leads to higher concentrations of wealth and therefore a power?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>00:00:06:14 – 00:00:12:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> I don’t want to say inherently, because I don’t want to be in the prediction business, I want to be in the design business. But there’s a lot of strong forces,the AI itself tends to work better at large scale. That’s why they’re raising hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars. You make the model bigger and it works better. So they said, let’s make it even bigger. And it just keeps working. So that tends to lead to kind of a bit of a winner take most outcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:31:16 – 00:00:39:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: I’m Alexis Madrigal,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin\u003c/strong>: I’m Robin Sloan, and this is Dream Machines. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>It’s a podcast about how AI works, also about how it feels.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:39:14 – 00:00:49:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course, we make it right here in San Francisco, where it’s all happening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>And nobody really disagrees at this point that AI is going to transform the economy in some way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:49:16 – 00:00:54:23\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But one of the questions that is still really open and hotly debated is how fast that is going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:55:01 – 00:01:12:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the question of how would we know that it’s being transformed? You certainly read a lot of headlines and see a lot of stock prices go up. But like what’s actually happening out there in offices?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Do we have the economic data that we need to make sense? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. It’s sort of the question of like, what would be the canary in the coal mine?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:01:12:12 – 00:01:25:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as we were looking around for answers to these questions, turns out there’s a paper called \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin & Alexis: \u003c/strong>Canary in the Coal Mine \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Out of the Stanford Digital Economy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Yeah. That’s right. And it’s the work of a scholar there named Erik Brynjolfsson.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:01:25:08 – 00:01:46:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was at MIT for 30 years before coming to Stanford, very early in his understanding of the potentially transformative effects of AI, and has become one of the folks who is really trying to shine a light into the kind of mysterious recesses of the economy so that the rest of us can know, like what is happening and how fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:01:46:23 – 00:01:47:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:01:47:11 – 00:02:08:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because it really matters the time scale. Right? If we have this incredible transformation in three months or in three years or in three decades, it will mean tremendously different society. And we need someone who can tell us, like, where are we on this, on this chart? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>So here is our very own canary in the coal mine Erik\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:02:08:22 – 00:02:10:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brynjolfsson.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:02:10:11 – 00:02:25:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of, as you know, definitions of AI, you know, superintelligence, AGI, you know, just like advanced AI, I’m quite taken by the definition that you used in sort of a formative ad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:02:25:22 – 00:02:47:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah. Transformative AI. You laid this out in a research agenda, you know, for kind of the, the community last year. And there’s a bit more to it. But the core of it is, as you said, we’ll know it’s transformative AI because it’ll have this significant economic effect. It’ll accelerate economic growth from sort of the the baseline that we’ve become accustomed to for a long time now, maybe around 2%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:02:47:17 – 00:03:09:10\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’ll it’ll multiply that by by 3 or 5 times almost without talking about AI specifically, it’d be really interesting to have you dramatize like what that means for for an economy. You know, if that did happen, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>transformative AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Transformative AI that and that growth rate like, like how would that change our our day, our week, our year, our jobs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:03:09:11 – 00:03:35:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Well, these way for me to think of it as by analogy. And so we don’t know for sure what’s going to happen going forward. But we can look back at, say, the industrial revolution. And in the Second Machine Age, Andy McAfee and I wrote about how we went through this big transition from an agricultural society to an industrial society, and we call it the second Machine age, because now we’re having in the early stages of a second big transition like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:03:35:20 – 00:03:56:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The first one was about machines doing what our muscles could do, an animal muscles, and that took growth from being sort of growing very, very slow tenths of a percent per year to growing about 2% per year, which may not sound like much, but you compound it. And now we’re like 30 or 50 times richer than our ancestors were a couple hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:03:56:03 – 00:04:13:13\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that doing now, now, we were able to use machines to augment our minds, our brains. And I think that’s going to be at least as big as what the Industrial Revolution did. And it will transform society at least as much, not just in growth rate, but also like, you know, just what we do in our daily lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:04:13:13 – 00:04:33:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think of the way farmers versus people in factories or modern society, how different that is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Using that analogy, I feel like I should probably know this, but during the Industrial revolution, did people’s lives change in a decade in terms of the kind of work they did, how they worked in the world, the kind of goods and services they, they had access to?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:04:33:01 – 00:04:53:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did it? Was it more of a generational change, like what was the pace of that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> It was actually pretty slow. In fact, there’s something called Engels pause. This period of like several decades, 40, 50 years where there wasn’t much of an improvement in living standards. If you read Charles Dickens, you know, actually life could be pretty miserable, even worse than it was for the people living in agricultural society.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:04:53:06 – 00:05:11:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>As life expectancy declined, people got shorter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Yeah, yeah. All that smoke and soot and and kids working in factories and stuff, you know, it was pretty miserable for the majority of the population. But under the surface, things were changing. And you were beginning to have this productivity gain. But it took a while and eventually it started taking off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:05:11:11 – 00:05:19:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This time around, it’s also going to take longer than I think some of our friends here in San Francisco and Silicon Valley think, but but certainly a lot faster than the last time around\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:05:19:19 – 00:05:24:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back into the historical example. I think it’s actually really useful for people to think about this, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:05:24:05 – 00:05:44:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You have this general purpose technology of \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>general purpose technology, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>which is a term of art, I love it, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>and also I do we were talking about this earlier. I it had not occurred to me that it’s the twin GPT. It seems a little uncanny\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong>. Yeah. So my, my my friend and student, former student Daniel Rock, he wrote a great paper with some folks at OpenAI called GPT RPGs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:05:44:12 – 00:06:03:18\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, generative pre-trained transformers and general purpose technologies. It used to be when I said GPT to economists, we all knew we were talking about general purpose technologies, but the AI people have pretty much stolen that acronym \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>and branded it. Yeah. And for the into it into a global brand\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> So be it. Yeah. But but but general purpose technology is pretty much what drives all economic growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:06:03:18 – 00:06:23:15\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s all these inventions, but there’s just a handful that really raise our living standards. The steam engine was the first really powerful general purpose technology electricity, computers and now AI, which is kind of like the mother of all general purpose technology, I think. So, you know, Demis Hassabis has this. I was over at Google DeepMind a few weeks ago in London.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:06:23:16 – 00:06:41:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They had this mission statement. They want to let me see if I can get it right. They want to solve intelligence and then use that to solve all the other problems in the world. So, you know, modest little mission statement. But but, you know, there’s a lot of truth to the fact that if you really could solve intelligence, there’s so many other things you could solve.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:06:41:11 – 00:06:56:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that is, of course, if you trusted that that’s what people who had solved intelligence would actually do with this intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Well, that’s a very good question. There’s a bunch of things that you can use it for. And also, to be fair, as I’ve come to think harder about the problem, intelligence is not the be all and end all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:06:56:01 – 00:07:06:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of very smart people think and wish it was, but when you get into the real world, you know, just look around us. There’s there’s lots of PhDs in the economy and they don’t like, rule the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:06:12 – 00:07:14:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, you go into a I was at the Starbucks across the street just before coming here, and you walk in there and l\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: Seven PhDs just right in there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:14:05 – 00:07:14:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: Yeah. Imagine\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:14:17 – 00:07:27:21\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>imagine you pull up with a bus and you say, okay, good news. You know, we’ve got Einstein, we’ve got a bus of 200 Einsteins. They’re going to come help you. I think the manager over there be like, oh, well, like, do they know how to push a broom? I mean, what are they going to do? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>I love that\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:27:23 – 00:07:33:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>because that that kind of argument and just even that that playful vision gets into the real crunchy details of like, what happens in an economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:33:19 – 00:07:54:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s not just, you know, sugar and eggs, whip them together and voila, you get growth and productivity. It’s really crunchy. And the thing I like best about your work is that kind of ongoing attempt to to dig in and sort of look for signals. You had the paper called Canary in a coal mine, which feels like exactly what we need most right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:54:09 – 00:08:11:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We need those kind of early signals. You know, they might be warning signals in some cases. They might be like hopeful beacons. We’re going to steer towards \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: the Canaries. metaphor for is a little dark at times. Yeah. We didn’t really mean it that way. We meant it in the more general metaphors, like an early warning signal. Yeah. And it’s very uneven.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:08:11:20 – 00:08:27:13\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s part of it. You know, going back to the intelligence point, you know, I just want to finish that earlier point about about these general purpose technologies. They tend to take a long time to play out, because even when you speed up one part, there are other parts that are bottlenecks or weak links to take longer to emerge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:08:27:17 – 00:09:00:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that that gets to your question about the Canaries paper, where we did find that there are certain jobs that are already beginning to be affected and others that are actually going the other way, that are becoming more valuable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>That’s interesting. I mean, so one of the findings, at least as I read it, you can correct me if I’m wrong, is that if there is an impact, it seems to be maybe, as you’d expect on entry level workers, the people who whose contributions can perhaps most seamlessly be replaced by Claude or ChatGPT or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:00:23 – 00:09:14:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>I didn’t necessarily expect that in Vance. I should credit my coauthors, Baratunde and Russian, who did most of the heavy lifting on this, and the folks at ADP who provided all the data. And we went into it, you know, with with a blank slate. We just were open to whatever. Actually,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:14:10 – 00:09:16:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>the first cut at it, we looked at the top line.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:16:15 – 00:09:32:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s not much happening, actually. You know, the overall labor market, it wasn’t that much happening. And we’re kicking around like, okay, maybe write a paper that all these headlines, these newspaper articles are all kind of overblown. And then, you know, Borat and Rudy looked in a little more deeply and they said, wait a minute. There’s like, there’s one group that’s really being affected.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:32:14 – 00:09:36:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Early career workers, especially in the most exposed occupations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:36:21 – 00:09:50:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So one of the things you can do with you can take all the jobs in the economy. 950, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And each of them, you can break down to a bundle of individual tasks. And once you do, at that fine grained level, you can really make headway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:50:19 – 00:10:14:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s hard to say whether that AI will replace a radiologist, some people say, but it’s much easier to look at a specific thing. Can it read a medical image? And that’s one of the 26 things that a radiologist does when you break it down to those tasks. And by the way, the paper that did that the best was this GPT are GPTs paper we were just talking about, when you break it down that way, you can rank all the occupations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:14:15 – 00:10:14:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:14:23 – 00:10:24:05\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>then when you also look at the age, you find that the combination of the most exposed occupations with the youngest workers had about a 16% decline in employment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:24:05 – 00:10:33:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin\u003c/strong>: So there’s a couple threads to pull on there and I want to do them both. One is the young workers, kind of the entry level workers and just the whole idea of like careers and and experience and everything else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:33:03 – 00:10:44:17\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the other one is the data. My perception is that right now we as a country, a society, maybe a planet probably don’t have as much data as we would like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:44:19 – 00:10:45:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Oh, no.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:45:09 – 00:10:46:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>it’s a tragedy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:46:04 – 00:11:01:05\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I spent a lot of time with our friends in Washington who are, like, working in the statistical agencies, and they’re having their budgets cut. It’s getting, you know, there’s more and more need for better data and less and less resources going into it. I think it’s incredibly foolish. One of the things we’re doing at Stanford is trying to help with that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:01:06 – 00:11:17:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We created something just last month called the Stanford AI Economic Indicators. That is like a dashboard that brings together all this data from a lot of private sources, as well as public sources, so people can look at it in one place instead of all these sort of dueling anecdotes, you know, everyone can see the data\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:17:11 – 00:11:31:07\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>The timing around this technological change of these major changes feels to me like it should be a deflationary narrative about how quickly AI is going to be deployed. But I’m kind of hearing from you, like sort of the opposite of that,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:31:07 – 00:11:45:21\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>that that you feel like there are that, that we are going to deploy this much faster than in these previous instances, even though historically we haven’t been able to do that, that it’s just there’s all this inertia across so many different sectors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:45:21 – 00:11:54:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it also sounds to me a little bit from the data board that like that is what’s happening. It is taking longer, you know, and I know both of us well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:54:10 – 00:11:56:01\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Erik: Well, I think both of those things are true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:56:02 – 00:12:11:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I would say, you know, I wrote about the need for these complementary investments. I wrote a paper called about the productivity paradox, about the first wave and then about this wave, and most importantly, a paper called The Productivity J curve with Chad Stephenson and Daniel Rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:11:02 – 00:12:13:07\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they all make this point that, you know,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:13:07 – 00:12:31:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>just because you have amazing technology, it doesn’t translate into productivity, business changes, transformation of the economy. That said that said, I think it’s happening a lot faster this time than with the Industrial revolution or with electricity, which also took like 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:31:10 – 00:12:34:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s just a lot of structural reasons why it’s going faster.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:34:08 – 00:12:53:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For one thing, you know, the internet has been built out, so we can just go from 0 to 100 million users of ChatGPT and like, you know, what was it, 60 days and now it’s a billion. Yeah, but like just going super fast and and a lot of the cognitive work, you can, you know, like software, you can do it a lot faster now than you could.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:53:07 – 00:13:10:21\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s still there’s still a lot of bottlenecks which you know, so I find myself sort of between these worlds when I talk to most economists and, you know, in New York or Washington or in businesses, you know, they see all the the structural barriers. When I talk to the guys at the Frontier Labs, they’re like, oh, we’re going to have RSI, recursive self-improvement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:13:10:21 – 00:13:26:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s all going to happen super fast. And I point out a bottleneck and they’re like, oh, AI will solve that. Yeah, yeah. And I’m kind of I’m kind of between them I put myself, you know, they’re like probably two orders of magnitude apart from each other in terms of rate of speed. And I’m at the geometric mean like one order of magnitude.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:13:26:11 – 00:13:45:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I do think it’s faster than most people in the rest of the world are ready for. And that’s why we create that statement about we must act now. I do also, at the same time think that that most of the technologists, they haven’t really spent as much time in big companies as I have and realized like how hard it is to get them to change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:13:45:04 – 00:14:11:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: Can I ask this though, knowing that you have a company that is essentially trying to accelerate the change? Is there an argument to be made that letting this take some time is actually a good thing for society? Because this kind of disjunction in a labor market, or in just the value of intelligence or any of the ways that we might describe this transformation, is actually kind of a good thing to let it settle in more slowly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:14:11:16 – 00:14:36:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>I agree with your core point, and but what I would say is that we need to speed up our understanding. We need to speed up our adaptation to it. We need to speed up our reskilling and, you know, be prepared or preparation. At the same time, I’m very sympathetic to the idea that those core capabilities, you know, there was just another statement that come out, these statements are all coming out about what they call it pacing, pacing, pacing the frontier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:14:36:13 – 00:14:39:17\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Right. Exactly. Which is, you know, that’s on the capability side. So,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:14:39:17 – 00:14:54:10\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>so the way I think about it is that there are these two lines. One of them is skyrocketing, which is the capabilities. The other one is our ability to adapt to it, which is barely moving. And that gap is where most of the big problems and challenges and opportunities lie over the next 5 or 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:14:54:11 – 00:15:05:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s where all the action is. Until all my economist friends, you should be focusing on that gap. My part of it is to close the gap from the bottom and like, speed up our understanding. Other people can think about the technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:15:05:16 – 00:15:12:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> You know, we’re talking about sort of the acceleration of an economy, but there’s also this simultaneous thing that that maybe is different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:15:12:01 – 00:15:31:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like maybe there’s a historical analogy for this, maybe there’s not. I think of it almost as like the weirding of the economy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> Yes\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>And this connects to a couple of things that we’ve talked about. You know, the idea that suddenly there’s no such thing as an entry level worker. Instead, you can only be, you know, a senior software engineer with an army of AI bots, and you’re really good at them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:15:31:00 – 00:15:52:21\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it raises the question of like, where do senior engineers or senior people of any kind come from anymore? Also, you know, again, to to make that industrial Revolution analogy, it’s interesting to consider that when you replace your, you know, horses going around a post with a steam engine, even though that’s new and kind of radical, you fundamentally do understand how that works.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:15:52:23 – 00:16:12:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whereas when you replace your software engineering team with bots, you probably don’t understand how it works anymore. Do these differences I mean, do these matter? Should we really be looking closely at these, this this weirdness?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong> I mean, those are those two parts of your question are so different in my mind. Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, they’re both weird.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:16:12:20 – 00:16:28:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can talk. Yeah, I’ll put them on that. So let me let me do one at a time because I think they’re both interesting to talk about. So on the on the junior versus senior this is this is a real problem. Like we describe earlier the data that there’s less demand for these young workers. But where do the middle managers come from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:16:28:08 – 00:16:44:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Where are the senior workers come from. And you need them. And you need people with that kind of judgment. And we used to have this grand bargain where people come in sometimes do some kind of boring Scott work. But in the process, sort of by osmosis, they would learn how the business ran, learn how to be a lawyer or a doctor or investment bank or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:16:44:11 – 00:17:01:23\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now they don’t have that opportunity. And I think part of the answer has to be we have to like, consciously and explicitly train them. I was talking to some folks at Infosys and, you know, they their junior people are very much in the bullseye of not being needed as much, but they tell me that they’re still hiring a bunch of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:17:01:23 – 00:17:23:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now instead of having them do some of that boring work that AI could now do, they are explicitly training them with an AI system. Actually, AI can be a really good tutor and it can help them learn faster. So that’s that’s part of the. That’s one approach to the answer. I think it’s going to be kind of a new social contract that we have to think about, because we don’t just abandon this whole generation of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:17:23:12 – 00:17:44:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, I’ll tell you a little bit of a, of a of a sad story. Well, hopefully it has a good ending. A student came to me in my office a couple of months ago graduating from Stanford. Pretty good school. And she said, I don’t have a job. My friends don’t have jobs. Is my generation doomed? And I was like, whoa, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:17:44:04 – 00:17:59:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, you’re a Stanford student. You should be optimistic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis:\u003c/strong> I know I’m a mindful optimist what do you mean?.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong> You should be. You’re graduating. And what I tried to say was, look, you know, I don’t want to sugarcoat it. There’s a bunch of jobs disappearing, like you just said, but the other on the other side, you know, you can use these tools to do things you never could have before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:17:59:14 – 00:18:16:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve got superpowers where you can do vibe coding and create all sorts of software. That would have been impossible five years ago or even one year ago, and you needed to lean into those new possibilities. There’s more startups being started than ever before, because a lot of people are seeing this opportunity to create things they couldn’t have done before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:18:16:08 – 00:18:33:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you know, that’s what I tried to teach my class. I have a master class that also does this, but I really want people to, you know, you know, I understand the downside, but I think there’s almost too much emphasis on that. And there should be more of a leaning in to AI allowing you to do new things you never could have done before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:18:33:22 – 00:18:55:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re harder to see because a lot of them didn’t exist before, but that’s where the opportunity is. And that’s the part I want to speed up, is that is the transition to those new opportunities. I don’t want to just ossify everything and try to freeze everything in place. I don’t think that’s the strategy. We need to be nimble and have that more flexible opportunity to create new jobs, new opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:18:55:15 – 00:19:16:15\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>another recent historical analogy to this is, you know, self-driving cars, where we essentially see them being, generally speaking, safer drivers than human drivers. But when they do make a mistake, it tends to be sort of a novel mistake or the kind of the way the system breaks down is we could not have anticipated, you know, power outage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:19:16:18 – 00:19:39:05\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: Yeah, it’s like an alien intelligence. Yeah. It is it exactly. Respect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> They respect the cones too much. You know yourself driving cars. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Exactly. They worship the code, but they don’t worship some other things. And, you know, as an economist, actually, you know, this is can be a little dangerous and off putting. It’s also an opportunity like for in economics, gains from trade happen when there’s two entities that are very different from each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:19:39:05 – 00:19:55:13\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If they’re identical to each other, there’s not much room for for gains from trade. So actually mostly encourage the folks at the Frontier Labs to lean into making the A’s really good at things that humans are not good at, and let us be good at the things we’re good at. I think too often they do it the other way around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:19:55:14 – 00:20:14:10\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re trying to, like, smooth the edges and and make them good at things that are that’s hard for machines and easy for us, like, you know, buttoning a shirt or, or and ultimately, the fact that it’s an alien intelligence means that we can lean on it to do some amazing things. But there will still be a role for humans, which I think is important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:14:11 – 00:20:14:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:14:20 – 00:20:31:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s good to not replace all the things that humans are doing. I wrote this paper, The Turing Trap, where I basically argued it’s a mistake. It’s to do what Alan Turing said, which is make AI that’s a perfect imitation of humans. We should make it different so we each have something to contribute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:31:10 – 00:20:36:23\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s funny, we can flip this around, you know, almost perfectly here on the podcast and in are there conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:37:00 – 00:20:56:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alexis and I are cautious and often critical of AI, particularly the industry, but we’re also quite enchanted by the the spaces inside these models. You know, these these mysterious high dimensional spaces and their capacity and the things they seem to be able to organize and then kind of cross connect in ways that humans can’t, certainly not at that scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:56:09 – 00:21:13:05\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it makes me think of, you know, the old ancient, almost economics debate between central planning and sort of, you know, action at the edges. And you, of course, know this well. But for folks listening to the podcast, there’s a few different ways you can organize an economy. You could have, you know, yeah, you could have planning. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:21:13:06 – 00:21:30:01\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Robin and Alexis deciding exactly how much to make of everything, you know, all fashionable t shirts and and cool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>What a great world that would be. Yeah. And you know, this, this has the benefit of coherency. And you can actually have a plan and execute it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>It can be aligned with the values of your society, at least supposedly in theory, all these things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:21:30:01 – 00:21:49:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>But then way over on the other side, you have the idea of you have the sense that the real information about how the world works and what people want and what the problems are, of course, where they’re at the edges, you know, in people’s lives all distributed in their kitchens, in their businesses. Sort of the Haken view of like the great sensor of the market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:21:49:18 – 00:22:12:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now it does seem so that was that was the story, you know, at least up until 2020, 2023. It does seem like maybe we have these machines now with a capacity that could change that balance a little bit. So first of all, I ask you, like do you see some of that potential. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Sure. No. This is a big like let me just say you’ve heard I’m pretty optimistic, excited about the productivity potential and creating a enormous amount of wealth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:22:12:02 – 00:22:31:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the things that I’m most worried about is it could be very badly distributed, where everything gets really, really centralized. And the core reason for that is what you just brought up. You know, Friedrich Hayek wrote this amazing paper called The Use of Knowledge in Society, which, you know, articulate what you just said, that most useful knowledge is, like widely dispersed in the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:22:31:07 – 00:22:47:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, you know, does this do people in this neighborhood like peppermint ice cream or is this truck half empty? And maybe we could put some more stuff on it or whatever. There’s all this, like detailed information. And he argued that there’s no way a central planner, even guy’s as smart as you two, could make all the decisions in the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:22:47:04 – 00:23:06:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s just too much of this detailed information. And that was totally true for the 20th century and up until recently. But Zoe Hitzig and I have written a paper called AI’s Use of Knowledge in Society, where we argue that, wait a minute, you know, you could actually go take these trillions of parameters and make all sorts of decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:23:07:00 – 00:23:32:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You could use the Internet of Things and other techniques to bring data and bring it all to, say, Bentonville, Arkansas, to pick up arbitrary city. And you’d be able to know all sorts of information about what’s happening and make decisions. And it’s actually beginning to happen. You know, when you look at the data and big centralized retailers are out competing, those mom and pop mom, mom and pop shops, they know more about what people want in each neighborhood and which trucks are empty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:23:32:13 – 00:23:41:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have all that detailed information that hikes. It would be impossible, which is great for efficiency, but it may not be the best thing for freedom and democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:23:41:21 – 00:23:43:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>we need to think hard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:23:43:02 – 00:24:07:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, while we have some optionality, how can we design a world where we maintain our freedom, maintain our decentralization of decision making, and that if we go too far down the path of disempowering people, it may be very hard to reverse course later. And for what it’s worth, everyone’s noticed. It’s kind of beginning to happen, right? And we better take it seriously because we go much further down that path.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:24:07:04 – 00:24:08:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’ll be too late. Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:24:08:03 – 00:24:34:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>I did want to ask you. I mean, this is from your book, Second Machine Age, of course, you coauthored \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>with Andy. Andy McAfee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alexis: And you have to paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr. The arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. We think the data support this. We’ve seen not just vast increases in wealth, but also, on the whole, more freedom, more social justice, less violence, and less less harsh conditions for the least fortunate and greater opportunities for more and more people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:24:34:20 – 00:24:52:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think, like there have been the majority of my life, I think I would have more or less agreed with this. I think in the last ten years, my own kind of priors have been challenged on this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Not just you. Yeah, no, we wrote that in 2014. I’m glad that I just checked. And it’s like it’s got more and more sales and citations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:24:52:02 – 00:25:10:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I’m glad that it’s it’s got legs that way. And that was sort of maybe like the peak of this,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alexis: Obama era story optimism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Exactly. But but speaking of Obama, you know, he modified that quote and he said that it bends. You know, I’m going to misquote him, but but the gist of what he was saying was, got a push on the ark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:25:10:20 – 00:25:27:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: You got to push on it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: It doesn’t happen automatically. We won’t just sit back and watch it happen. And that’s very much, you know, you mentioned I call myself a mindful optimist. You know, that the arc of history bends if and only if we push it. And I think lately it’s been going the wrong way. It’s also long, like Martin Luther King said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:25:27:06 – 00:25:44:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you know, it’s not going to be monotonic where it always improves every month or every year. So I think it’s fair to say we’ve had some backsliding and some bad things have happened. I’m still optimistic, maybe a little less optimistic than I was in 2014, but I’m hopeful that that work harder. But but this is exactly why I do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:25:44:06 – 00:26:13:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I do is I’m not here to predict the future. I’m here to say, here are some possible futures, and here are some levers that matter. And we need to push on them, because most of us do want not just more abundance, but also more freedom and shared prosperity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Can I can I keep pushing on this one a little bit just because I think there’s, you know, even some people in this building here at KQED who their their biggest concern about AI, they have they have many environmental this and other things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:26:13:02 – 00:26:13:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:26:13:08 – 00:26:42:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>it’s really about particularly being here in San Francisco. You really see it the concentration of wealth. And then, you know, our city politics has been taken over by tech wealth. It’s like it’s also the concentration of power that that goes along \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Those tend to go together, don’t they.? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Yes. Yeah. And I guess the, the maybe more difficult version of this question is do you think that AI, as a result of the what the frontier models need, the amount of capital that you need to deploy to do these things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:26:42:10 – 00:27:04:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is this a kind of technology that inherently leads to higher concentrations of wealth and therefore a power? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to say inherently, because I don’t want to be in the prediction business, I want to be in the design business. But there’s a lot of strong forces, and there’s two sets that are particularly obvious to me. One is, you know, the scaling laws and the fact that the AI itself tends to work better at large scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:27:04:22 – 00:27:28:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s why they’re raising hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars to build bigger and bigger data centers. But yeah, borrowing and and, you know, there’s just this amazing thing that Dario Modi and others noted that you make the model bigger and it works better. So they said, let’s make it even bigger. And it just keeps working. So that tends to lead to kind of a bit of a winner take most outcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:27:28:14 – 00:27:44:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Actually, I’ve been somewhat surprised how many frontier labs there still are. It hasn’t all just concentrating to one singleton. But you know, who knows where that’s going to go. It certainly you have to be pretty big to be a player in that, but the one that I’m more concerned about is the other, like 90% of the economy,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:27:44:22 – 00:27:56:18\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>that, you know, whether you’re in retail or manufacturing or health or whatever, you know, having decentralized information may not be as competitive with having it become more centralized.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:27:56:18 – 00:28:15:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that could also lead. And it has been if you look at the data, there has been more concentration. So we need to think harder about how do we decentralize it. I mean, part of one of the answers that I would put forward is this idea of pushing AI to complement humans rather than substitute for them. But we need to look at all levers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:28:15:22 – 00:28:41:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> Thinking about that discussion about centralization, about kind of where the power, where the money resides is that change in the capital versus labor share of the economy a warning sign? I mean, if that continues, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>yes, yes, this one I’m not going to hedge on. So so capital is inherently much more concentrated than labor. You know, the cool thing about labor, even though it’s pretty uneven, like we all have basically one brain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:28:41:09 – 00:28:57:15\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And like some of them, you know, maybe a little smarter than others, but but, you know, it’s distributed through the economy. You know, no matter how smart you are, you can’t run a whole fortune 500 corporation. So you delegate stuff, and the whole economy has all these delegated decisions to all these different brains. But with capital, you can concentrate it much more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:28:57:15 – 00:29:19:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And empirically, you know, the income from capital is much more concentrated in a small fraction of the people. So, you know, we were saying earlier that economic power begets political power. So that’s something I worry about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>I mean, what would that world even look like? You know, I’ve looked at some other countries that have labor share that’s like much lower.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:29:19:10 – 00:29:39:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, labor share of income is much lower. And it’s not a good set of countries. They’re like resource cursed countries that Saudi Arabia, it’s like mineral mining countries. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Exactly, And you get these like gated communities and these people who have a lot of wealth. I was talking to somebody from a Latin American country. She’s very wealthy. And she said, you know, all the wealthy people in my country are in prisons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:29:39:00 – 00:29:46:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And like, what do you mean they’re in prison? She said, well, the prison of our own construction, like we can’t go outside of our houses when we ever. I get into a car, I have like guards on either side of me\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:29:47:00 – 00:30:08:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like one of those dystopian science fiction movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Yeah. What? What interventions could we at least start to prepare for now, economically? And obviously there’s a whole suite of politics and, you know, who we elect and how we organize ourselves as a city. But just thinking about economic policy, what what are what would be some smart things to start thinking about right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:30:08:12 – 00:30:31:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>So I think we have some levers to push back against this, and that’s why I care about it. So I did write this paper, The Turing Trap, about how it’s a trap to have AI that just replaces and imitates humans. So a couple of things we can push back on. First off, there’s a lot of economic incentives right now that I think mistakenly steer us towards favoring capital over labor, like in the United States and most countries for that matter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:30:31:13 – 00:30:55:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Tax policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Tax policy is much, you know, capitalist taxed much cheaper than labor. So you have two brilliant entrepreneurs, you know, one of which says, I’m going to make a $100 billion company with thousands of employees. And the other ones, I’m going to make $100 billion company with like no employees, but lots of robots. Yeah. The US government says, oh, the first person you know, Alice, you’re going to have to like, pay a lot more taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:30:55:00 – 00:31:11:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your whole organization is going to pay a lot more taxes. And the second one is going to pay less. And, you know, the first rule of taxation is like, whatever you tax more, you get less of. So we’re basically putting our thumb on the scale, saying we’re going to get more capital intensive and less labor intensive. Like for most of history, maybe that didn’t matter that much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:31:11:06 – 00:31:34:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It wasn’t that much leverage to to do things different ways. Now we really have the potential and there’s a lot of other tax things you can do. My friend Darren Asamoah, who has written a lot about this Pascual Restrepo. So those are some things that we can do. Like, you know, they’re a really hard core. I’m an economist, but I’ve come to think that actually culture and the way people think about it is more important than the like hard dollars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:31:34:02 – 00:31:59:13\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So here in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, I run into a lot of people who have this mindset that like the goal of AI is to replace humans, and that’s just wrong, I think. And when they all the benchmarks that you see being published, almost all of them are geared towards like, how well can this machine by itself do the task with Andy Hopped and we’ve developed a new set of benchmarks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:31:59:13 – 00:32:18:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We call them Centaur benchmarks, sort of like part human, part machine. And the the idea is to say, hey guys, think about not how well a machine by itself can do it, but how can a human and machine together do it? And in many cases, in most cases, the human machine can do better than the machine by itself or the human by itself, but it requires a different architecture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:32:18:20 – 00:32:41:15\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, Doug Engelbart years ago, you know, talked about how we should make machines that amplify humans. Steve Jobs called it bicycles for the mind, and that that philosophy has kind of been lost out a little bit. I want to revive it more. And if we design machines more to to augment humans and to complement what we’re doing, we’re likely to keep people in the loop.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:32:41:15 – 00:32:48:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And ultimately, I think that’s going to not just be fairer. I think it’s going to create a lot more value than trying to get the machine to do everything by itself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:32:48:20 – 00:33:23:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Eric, talking about your your early apprehension of the curve we were in and kind of the trajectory of AI, let’s talk situational awareness for people on the ground level. So outside of OpenAI headquarters here in San Francisco, imagine you’re somebody who works at one of the Kaiser hospitals. Great day to day job. How are you going to know that it really is taking off, that you’re inside this exponential, and that this prediction of of a transformational AI era happening pretty fast rather than predictably slow is true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:33:23:20 – 00:33:44:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like day to day, week to week. What what should I be watching for? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Well, you can come to the AI economic indicators and we’ll have we’ll have a monthly update of all those metrics. You know, I’m not I’m not joking about that because I just see so many anecdotes and stories. And honestly, it’s a little frustrating because, you know, every month there’s hundreds of thousands of jobs destroyed, hundreds of thousands created.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:33:44:12 – 00:34:01:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you’re a reporter with an angle, you can you can definitely find anecdotes that support your story. And you’ll have some men in the street who tells you what you know, what the people. And I’ve been reading those and I just don’t know how to aggregate them. So, you know, I’m a data person. I’m a statistician. 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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Is this a kind of technology that inherently leads to higher concentrations of wealth and therefore a power?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> I don’t want to say inherently, because I don’t want to be in the prediction business, I want to be in the design business. But there’s a lot of strong forces,the AI itself tends to work better at large scale. That’s why they’re raising hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars. You make the model bigger and it works better. So they said, let’s make it even bigger. And it just keeps working. So that tends to lead to kind of a bit of a winner take most outcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And also the question of how would we know that it’s being transformed? You certainly read a lot of headlines and see a lot of stock prices go up. But like what’s actually happening out there in offices?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was at MIT for 30 years before coming to Stanford, very early in his understanding of the potentially transformative effects of AI, and has become one of the folks who is really trying to shine a light into the kind of mysterious recesses of the economy so that the rest of us can know, like what is happening and how fast.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because it really matters the time scale. Right? If we have this incredible transformation in three months or in three years or in three decades, it will mean tremendously different society. And we need someone who can tell us, like, where are we on this, on this chart? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of, as you know, definitions of AI, you know, superintelligence, AGI, you know, just like advanced AI, I’m quite taken by the definition that you used in sort of a formative ad.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah. Transformative AI. You laid this out in a research agenda, you know, for kind of the, the community last year. And there’s a bit more to it. But the core of it is, as you said, we’ll know it’s transformative AI because it’ll have this significant economic effect. It’ll accelerate economic growth from sort of the the baseline that we’ve become accustomed to for a long time now, maybe around 2%.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’ll it’ll multiply that by by 3 or 5 times almost without talking about AI specifically, it’d be really interesting to have you dramatize like what that means for for an economy. You know, if that did happen, \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>transformative AI?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Transformative AI that and that growth rate like, like how would that change our our day, our week, our year, our jobs?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Well, these way for me to think of it as by analogy. And so we don’t know for sure what’s going to happen going forward. But we can look back at, say, the industrial revolution. And in the Second Machine Age, Andy McAfee and I wrote about how we went through this big transition from an agricultural society to an industrial society, and we call it the second Machine age, because now we’re having in the early stages of a second big transition like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The first one was about machines doing what our muscles could do, an animal muscles, and that took growth from being sort of growing very, very slow tenths of a percent per year to growing about 2% per year, which may not sound like much, but you compound it. And now we’re like 30 or 50 times richer than our ancestors were a couple hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that doing now, now, we were able to use machines to augment our minds, our brains. And I think that’s going to be at least as big as what the Industrial Revolution did. And it will transform society at least as much, not just in growth rate, but also like, you know, just what we do in our daily lives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Think of the way farmers versus people in factories or modern society, how different that is. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Using that analogy, I feel like I should probably know this, but during the Industrial revolution, did people’s lives change in a decade in terms of the kind of work they did, how they worked in the world, the kind of goods and services they, they had access to?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Did it? Was it more of a generational change, like what was the pace of that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> It was actually pretty slow. In fact, there’s something called Engels pause. This period of like several decades, 40, 50 years where there wasn’t much of an improvement in living standards. If you read Charles Dickens, you know, actually life could be pretty miserable, even worse than it was for the people living in agricultural society.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>As life expectancy declined, people got shorter. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Yeah, yeah. All that smoke and soot and and kids working in factories and stuff, you know, it was pretty miserable for the majority of the population. But under the surface, things were changing. And you were beginning to have this productivity gain. But it took a while and eventually it started taking off.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This time around, it’s also going to take longer than I think some of our friends here in San Francisco and Silicon Valley think, but but certainly a lot faster than the last time around\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back into the historical example. I think it’s actually really useful for people to think about this, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You have this general purpose technology of \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>which is a term of art, I love it, \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>and also I do we were talking about this earlier. I it had not occurred to me that it’s the twin GPT. It seems a little uncanny\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong>. Yeah. So my, my my friend and student, former student Daniel Rock, he wrote a great paper with some folks at OpenAI called GPT RPGs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah, generative pre-trained transformers and general purpose technologies. It used to be when I said GPT to economists, we all knew we were talking about general purpose technologies, but the AI people have pretty much stolen that acronym \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>and branded it. Yeah. And for the into it into a global brand\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> So be it. Yeah. But but but general purpose technology is pretty much what drives all economic growth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s all these inventions, but there’s just a handful that really raise our living standards. The steam engine was the first really powerful general purpose technology electricity, computers and now AI, which is kind of like the mother of all general purpose technology, I think. So, you know, Demis Hassabis has this. I was over at Google DeepMind a few weeks ago in London.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They had this mission statement. They want to let me see if I can get it right. They want to solve intelligence and then use that to solve all the other problems in the world. So, you know, modest little mission statement. But but, you know, there’s a lot of truth to the fact that if you really could solve intelligence, there’s so many other things you could solve.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that is, of course, if you trusted that that’s what people who had solved intelligence would actually do with this intelligence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Well, that’s a very good question. There’s a bunch of things that you can use it for. And also, to be fair, as I’ve come to think harder about the problem, intelligence is not the be all and end all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of very smart people think and wish it was, but when you get into the real world, you know, just look around us. There’s there’s lots of PhDs in the economy and they don’t like, rule the economy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: Seven PhDs just right in there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: Yeah. Imagine\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>imagine you pull up with a bus and you say, okay, good news. You know, we’ve got Einstein, we’ve got a bus of 200 Einsteins. They’re going to come help you. I think the manager over there be like, oh, well, like, do they know how to push a broom? I mean, what are they going to do? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>because that that kind of argument and just even that that playful vision gets into the real crunchy details of like, what happens in an economy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s not just, you know, sugar and eggs, whip them together and voila, you get growth and productivity. It’s really crunchy. And the thing I like best about your work is that kind of ongoing attempt to to dig in and sort of look for signals. You had the paper called Canary in a coal mine, which feels like exactly what we need most right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We need those kind of early signals. You know, they might be warning signals in some cases. They might be like hopeful beacons. We’re going to steer towards \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: the Canaries. metaphor for is a little dark at times. Yeah. We didn’t really mean it that way. We meant it in the more general metaphors, like an early warning signal. Yeah. And it’s very uneven.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s part of it. You know, going back to the intelligence point, you know, I just want to finish that earlier point about about these general purpose technologies. They tend to take a long time to play out, because even when you speed up one part, there are other parts that are bottlenecks or weak links to take longer to emerge.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that that gets to your question about the Canaries paper, where we did find that there are certain jobs that are already beginning to be affected and others that are actually going the other way, that are becoming more valuable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>That’s interesting. I mean, so one of the findings, at least as I read it, you can correct me if I’m wrong, is that if there is an impact, it seems to be maybe, as you’d expect on entry level workers, the people who whose contributions can perhaps most seamlessly be replaced by Claude or ChatGPT or whatever.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>I didn’t necessarily expect that in Vance. I should credit my coauthors, Baratunde and Russian, who did most of the heavy lifting on this, and the folks at ADP who provided all the data. And we went into it, you know, with with a blank slate. We just were open to whatever. Actually,\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>the first cut at it, we looked at the top line.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s not much happening, actually. You know, the overall labor market, it wasn’t that much happening. And we’re kicking around like, okay, maybe write a paper that all these headlines, these newspaper articles are all kind of overblown. And then, you know, Borat and Rudy looked in a little more deeply and they said, wait a minute. There’s like, there’s one group that’s really being affected.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Early career workers, especially in the most exposed occupations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So one of the things you can do with you can take all the jobs in the economy. 950, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And each of them, you can break down to a bundle of individual tasks. And once you do, at that fine grained level, you can really make headway.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s hard to say whether that AI will replace a radiologist, some people say, but it’s much easier to look at a specific thing. Can it read a medical image? And that’s one of the 26 things that a radiologist does when you break it down to those tasks. And by the way, the paper that did that the best was this GPT are GPTs paper we were just talking about, when you break it down that way, you can rank all the occupations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>then when you also look at the age, you find that the combination of the most exposed occupations with the youngest workers had about a 16% decline in employment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin\u003c/strong>: So there’s a couple threads to pull on there and I want to do them both. One is the young workers, kind of the entry level workers and just the whole idea of like careers and and experience and everything else.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the other one is the data. My perception is that right now we as a country, a society, maybe a planet probably don’t have as much data as we would like.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Oh, no.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I spent a lot of time with our friends in Washington who are, like, working in the statistical agencies, and they’re having their budgets cut. It’s getting, you know, there’s more and more need for better data and less and less resources going into it. I think it’s incredibly foolish. One of the things we’re doing at Stanford is trying to help with that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We created something just last month called the Stanford AI Economic Indicators. That is like a dashboard that brings together all this data from a lot of private sources, as well as public sources, so people can look at it in one place instead of all these sort of dueling anecdotes, you know, everyone can see the data\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>The timing around this technological change of these major changes feels to me like it should be a deflationary narrative about how quickly AI is going to be deployed. But I’m kind of hearing from you, like sort of the opposite of that,\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>that that you feel like there are that, that we are going to deploy this much faster than in these previous instances, even though historically we haven’t been able to do that, that it’s just there’s all this inertia across so many different sectors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it also sounds to me a little bit from the data board that like that is what’s happening. It is taking longer, you know, and I know both of us well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Erik: Well, I think both of those things are true.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I would say, you know, I wrote about the need for these complementary investments. I wrote a paper called about the productivity paradox, about the first wave and then about this wave, and most importantly, a paper called The Productivity J curve with Chad Stephenson and Daniel Rock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>just because you have amazing technology, it doesn’t translate into productivity, business changes, transformation of the economy. That said that said, I think it’s happening a lot faster this time than with the Industrial revolution or with electricity, which also took like 30 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s just a lot of structural reasons why it’s going faster.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For one thing, you know, the internet has been built out, so we can just go from 0 to 100 million users of ChatGPT and like, you know, what was it, 60 days and now it’s a billion. Yeah, but like just going super fast and and a lot of the cognitive work, you can, you know, like software, you can do it a lot faster now than you could.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s still there’s still a lot of bottlenecks which you know, so I find myself sort of between these worlds when I talk to most economists and, you know, in New York or Washington or in businesses, you know, they see all the the structural barriers. When I talk to the guys at the Frontier Labs, they’re like, oh, we’re going to have RSI, recursive self-improvement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s all going to happen super fast. And I point out a bottleneck and they’re like, oh, AI will solve that. Yeah, yeah. And I’m kind of I’m kind of between them I put myself, you know, they’re like probably two orders of magnitude apart from each other in terms of rate of speed. And I’m at the geometric mean like one order of magnitude.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I do think it’s faster than most people in the rest of the world are ready for. And that’s why we create that statement about we must act now. I do also, at the same time think that that most of the technologists, they haven’t really spent as much time in big companies as I have and realized like how hard it is to get them to change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: Can I ask this though, knowing that you have a company that is essentially trying to accelerate the change? Is there an argument to be made that letting this take some time is actually a good thing for society? Because this kind of disjunction in a labor market, or in just the value of intelligence or any of the ways that we might describe this transformation, is actually kind of a good thing to let it settle in more slowly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>I agree with your core point, and but what I would say is that we need to speed up our understanding. We need to speed up our adaptation to it. We need to speed up our reskilling and, you know, be prepared or preparation. At the same time, I’m very sympathetic to the idea that those core capabilities, you know, there was just another statement that come out, these statements are all coming out about what they call it pacing, pacing, pacing the frontier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Right. Exactly. Which is, you know, that’s on the capability side. So,\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>so the way I think about it is that there are these two lines. One of them is skyrocketing, which is the capabilities. The other one is our ability to adapt to it, which is barely moving. And that gap is where most of the big problems and challenges and opportunities lie over the next 5 or 10 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s where all the action is. Until all my economist friends, you should be focusing on that gap. My part of it is to close the gap from the bottom and like, speed up our understanding. Other people can think about the technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> You know, we’re talking about sort of the acceleration of an economy, but there’s also this simultaneous thing that that maybe is different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like maybe there’s a historical analogy for this, maybe there’s not. I think of it almost as like the weirding of the economy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> Yes\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>And this connects to a couple of things that we’ve talked about. You know, the idea that suddenly there’s no such thing as an entry level worker. Instead, you can only be, you know, a senior software engineer with an army of AI bots, and you’re really good at them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it raises the question of like, where do senior engineers or senior people of any kind come from anymore? Also, you know, again, to to make that industrial Revolution analogy, it’s interesting to consider that when you replace your, you know, horses going around a post with a steam engine, even though that’s new and kind of radical, you fundamentally do understand how that works.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whereas when you replace your software engineering team with bots, you probably don’t understand how it works anymore. Do these differences I mean, do these matter? Should we really be looking closely at these, this this weirdness?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong> I mean, those are those two parts of your question are so different in my mind. Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, they’re both weird.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We can talk. Yeah, I’ll put them on that. So let me let me do one at a time because I think they’re both interesting to talk about. So on the on the junior versus senior this is this is a real problem. Like we describe earlier the data that there’s less demand for these young workers. But where do the middle managers come from.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Where are the senior workers come from. And you need them. And you need people with that kind of judgment. And we used to have this grand bargain where people come in sometimes do some kind of boring Scott work. But in the process, sort of by osmosis, they would learn how the business ran, learn how to be a lawyer or a doctor or investment bank or whatever.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now they don’t have that opportunity. And I think part of the answer has to be we have to like, consciously and explicitly train them. I was talking to some folks at Infosys and, you know, they their junior people are very much in the bullseye of not being needed as much, but they tell me that they’re still hiring a bunch of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now instead of having them do some of that boring work that AI could now do, they are explicitly training them with an AI system. Actually, AI can be a really good tutor and it can help them learn faster. So that’s that’s part of the. That’s one approach to the answer. I think it’s going to be kind of a new social contract that we have to think about, because we don’t just abandon this whole generation of people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, I’ll tell you a little bit of a, of a of a sad story. Well, hopefully it has a good ending. A student came to me in my office a couple of months ago graduating from Stanford. Pretty good school. And she said, I don’t have a job. My friends don’t have jobs. Is my generation doomed? And I was like, whoa, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, you’re a Stanford student. You should be optimistic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis:\u003c/strong> I know I’m a mindful optimist what do you mean?.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong> You should be. You’re graduating. And what I tried to say was, look, you know, I don’t want to sugarcoat it. There’s a bunch of jobs disappearing, like you just said, but the other on the other side, you know, you can use these tools to do things you never could have before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’ve got superpowers where you can do vibe coding and create all sorts of software. That would have been impossible five years ago or even one year ago, and you needed to lean into those new possibilities. There’s more startups being started than ever before, because a lot of people are seeing this opportunity to create things they couldn’t have done before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, you know, that’s what I tried to teach my class. I have a master class that also does this, but I really want people to, you know, you know, I understand the downside, but I think there’s almost too much emphasis on that. And there should be more of a leaning in to AI allowing you to do new things you never could have done before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They’re harder to see because a lot of them didn’t exist before, but that’s where the opportunity is. And that’s the part I want to speed up, is that is the transition to those new opportunities. I don’t want to just ossify everything and try to freeze everything in place. I don’t think that’s the strategy. We need to be nimble and have that more flexible opportunity to create new jobs, new opportunities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>another recent historical analogy to this is, you know, self-driving cars, where we essentially see them being, generally speaking, safer drivers than human drivers. But when they do make a mistake, it tends to be sort of a novel mistake or the kind of the way the system breaks down is we could not have anticipated, you know, power outage.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: Yeah, it’s like an alien intelligence. Yeah. It is it exactly. Respect.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> They respect the cones too much. You know yourself driving cars. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Exactly. They worship the code, but they don’t worship some other things. And, you know, as an economist, actually, you know, this is can be a little dangerous and off putting. It’s also an opportunity like for in economics, gains from trade happen when there’s two entities that are very different from each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If they’re identical to each other, there’s not much room for for gains from trade. So actually mostly encourage the folks at the Frontier Labs to lean into making the A’s really good at things that humans are not good at, and let us be good at the things we’re good at. I think too often they do it the other way around.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They’re trying to, like, smooth the edges and and make them good at things that are that’s hard for machines and easy for us, like, you know, buttoning a shirt or, or and ultimately, the fact that it’s an alien intelligence means that we can lean on it to do some amazing things. But there will still be a role for humans, which I think is important.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it’s good to not replace all the things that humans are doing. I wrote this paper, The Turing Trap, where I basically argued it’s a mistake. It’s to do what Alan Turing said, which is make AI that’s a perfect imitation of humans. We should make it different so we each have something to contribute.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s funny, we can flip this around, you know, almost perfectly here on the podcast and in are there conversations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Alexis and I are cautious and often critical of AI, particularly the industry, but we’re also quite enchanted by the the spaces inside these models. You know, these these mysterious high dimensional spaces and their capacity and the things they seem to be able to organize and then kind of cross connect in ways that humans can’t, certainly not at that scale.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it makes me think of, you know, the old ancient, almost economics debate between central planning and sort of, you know, action at the edges. And you, of course, know this well. But for folks listening to the podcast, there’s a few different ways you can organize an economy. You could have, you know, yeah, you could have planning. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Robin and Alexis deciding exactly how much to make of everything, you know, all fashionable t shirts and and cool. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>What a great world that would be. Yeah. And you know, this, this has the benefit of coherency. And you can actually have a plan and execute it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>It can be aligned with the values of your society, at least supposedly in theory, all these things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>But then way over on the other side, you have the idea of you have the sense that the real information about how the world works and what people want and what the problems are, of course, where they’re at the edges, you know, in people’s lives all distributed in their kitchens, in their businesses. Sort of the Haken view of like the great sensor of the market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now it does seem so that was that was the story, you know, at least up until 2020, 2023. It does seem like maybe we have these machines now with a capacity that could change that balance a little bit. So first of all, I ask you, like do you see some of that potential. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Sure. No. This is a big like let me just say you’ve heard I’m pretty optimistic, excited about the productivity potential and creating a enormous amount of wealth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the things that I’m most worried about is it could be very badly distributed, where everything gets really, really centralized. And the core reason for that is what you just brought up. You know, Friedrich Hayek wrote this amazing paper called The Use of Knowledge in Society, which, you know, articulate what you just said, that most useful knowledge is, like widely dispersed in the economy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, you know, does this do people in this neighborhood like peppermint ice cream or is this truck half empty? And maybe we could put some more stuff on it or whatever. There’s all this, like detailed information. And he argued that there’s no way a central planner, even guy’s as smart as you two, could make all the decisions in the economy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s just too much of this detailed information. And that was totally true for the 20th century and up until recently. But Zoe Hitzig and I have written a paper called AI’s Use of Knowledge in Society, where we argue that, wait a minute, you know, you could actually go take these trillions of parameters and make all sorts of decisions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You could use the Internet of Things and other techniques to bring data and bring it all to, say, Bentonville, Arkansas, to pick up arbitrary city. And you’d be able to know all sorts of information about what’s happening and make decisions. And it’s actually beginning to happen. You know, when you look at the data and big centralized retailers are out competing, those mom and pop mom, mom and pop shops, they know more about what people want in each neighborhood and which trucks are empty.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They have all that detailed information that hikes. It would be impossible, which is great for efficiency, but it may not be the best thing for freedom and democracy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, while we have some optionality, how can we design a world where we maintain our freedom, maintain our decentralization of decision making, and that if we go too far down the path of disempowering people, it may be very hard to reverse course later. And for what it’s worth, everyone’s noticed. It’s kind of beginning to happen, right? And we better take it seriously because we go much further down that path.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’ll be too late. Yeah,\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>I did want to ask you. I mean, this is from your book, Second Machine Age, of course, you coauthored \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>with Andy. Andy McAfee. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Alexis: And you have to paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr. The arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. We think the data support this. We’ve seen not just vast increases in wealth, but also, on the whole, more freedom, more social justice, less violence, and less less harsh conditions for the least fortunate and greater opportunities for more and more people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think, like there have been the majority of my life, I think I would have more or less agreed with this. I think in the last ten years, my own kind of priors have been challenged on this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Not just you. Yeah, no, we wrote that in 2014. I’m glad that I just checked. And it’s like it’s got more and more sales and citations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I’m glad that it’s it’s got legs that way. And that was sort of maybe like the peak of this,\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Alexis: Obama era story optimism. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Exactly. But but speaking of Obama, you know, he modified that quote and he said that it bends. You know, I’m going to misquote him, but but the gist of what he was saying was, got a push on the ark.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: You got to push on it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: It doesn’t happen automatically. We won’t just sit back and watch it happen. And that’s very much, you know, you mentioned I call myself a mindful optimist. You know, that the arc of history bends if and only if we push it. And I think lately it’s been going the wrong way. It’s also long, like Martin Luther King said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: It doesn’t happen automatically. We won’t just sit back and watch it happen. And that’s very much, you know, you mentioned I call myself a mindful optimist. You know, that the arc of history bends if and only if we push it. And I think lately it’s been going the wrong way. It’s also long, like Martin Luther King said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you know, it’s not going to be monotonic where it always improves every month or every year. So I think it’s fair to say we’ve had some backsliding and some bad things have happened. I’m still optimistic, maybe a little less optimistic than I was in 2014, but I’m hopeful that that work harder. But but this is exactly why I do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I do is I’m not here to predict the future. I’m here to say, here are some possible futures, and here are some levers that matter. And we need to push on them, because most of us do want not just more abundance, but also more freedom and shared prosperity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Can I can I keep pushing on this one a little bit just because I think there’s, you know, even some people in this building here at KQED who their their biggest concern about AI, they have they have many environmental this and other things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>it’s really about particularly being here in San Francisco. You really see it the concentration of wealth. And then, you know, our city politics has been taken over by tech wealth. It’s like it’s also the concentration of power that that goes along \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Those tend to go together, don’t they.? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Yes. Yeah. And I guess the, the maybe more difficult version of this question is do you think that AI, as a result of the what the frontier models need, the amount of capital that you need to deploy to do these things?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Is this a kind of technology that inherently leads to higher concentrations of wealth and therefore a power? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to say inherently, because I don’t want to be in the prediction business, I want to be in the design business. But there’s a lot of strong forces, and there’s two sets that are particularly obvious to me. One is, you know, the scaling laws and the fact that the AI itself tends to work better at large scale.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s why they’re raising hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars to build bigger and bigger data centers. But yeah, borrowing and and, you know, there’s just this amazing thing that Dario Modi and others noted that you make the model bigger and it works better. So they said, let’s make it even bigger. And it just keeps working. So that tends to lead to kind of a bit of a winner take most outcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s why they’re raising hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars to build bigger and bigger data centers. But yeah, borrowing and and, you know, there’s just this amazing thing that Dario Modi and others noted that you make the model bigger and it works better. So they said, let’s make it even bigger. And it just keeps working. So that tends to lead to kind of a bit of a winner take most outcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Actually, I’ve been somewhat surprised how many frontier labs there still are. It hasn’t all just concentrating to one singleton. But you know, who knows where that’s going to go. It certainly you have to be pretty big to be a player in that, but the one that I’m more concerned about is the other, like 90% of the economy,\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>that, you know, whether you’re in retail or manufacturing or health or whatever, you know, having decentralized information may not be as competitive with having it become more centralized.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that could also lead. And it has been if you look at the data, there has been more concentration. So we need to think harder about how do we decentralize it. I mean, part of one of the answers that I would put forward is this idea of pushing AI to complement humans rather than substitute for them. But we need to look at all levers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> Thinking about that discussion about centralization, about kind of where the power, where the money resides is that change in the capital versus labor share of the economy a warning sign? I mean, if that continues, \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> Thinking about that discussion about centralization, about kind of where the power, where the money resides is that change in the capital versus labor share of the economy a warning sign? I mean, if that continues, \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>yes, yes, this one I’m not going to hedge on. So so capital is inherently much more concentrated than labor. You know, the cool thing about labor, even though it’s pretty uneven, like we all have basically one brain.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>yes, yes, this one I’m not going to hedge on. So so capital is inherently much more concentrated than labor. You know, the cool thing about labor, even though it’s pretty uneven, like we all have basically one brain.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And like some of them, you know, maybe a little smarter than others, but but, you know, it’s distributed through the economy. You know, no matter how smart you are, you can’t run a whole fortune 500 corporation. So you delegate stuff, and the whole economy has all these delegated decisions to all these different brains. But with capital, you can concentrate it much more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And empirically, you know, the income from capital is much more concentrated in a small fraction of the people. So, you know, we were saying earlier that economic power begets political power. So that’s something I worry about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>I mean, what would that world even look like? You know, I’ve looked at some other countries that have labor share that’s like much lower.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah, labor share of income is much lower. And it’s not a good set of countries. They’re like resource cursed countries that Saudi Arabia, it’s like mineral mining countries. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Exactly, And you get these like gated communities and these people who have a lot of wealth. I was talking to somebody from a Latin American country. She’s very wealthy. And she said, you know, all the wealthy people in my country are in prisons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And like, what do you mean they’re in prison? She said, well, the prison of our own construction, like we can’t go outside of our houses when we ever. I get into a car, I have like guards on either side of me\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And like, what do you mean they’re in prison? She said, well, the prison of our own construction, like we can’t go outside of our houses when we ever. I get into a car, I have like guards on either side of me\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s like one of those dystopian science fiction movies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Yeah. What? What interventions could we at least start to prepare for now, economically? And obviously there’s a whole suite of politics and, you know, who we elect and how we organize ourselves as a city. But just thinking about economic policy, what what are what would be some smart things to start thinking about right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>So I think we have some levers to push back against this, and that’s why I care about it. So I did write this paper, The Turing Trap, about how it’s a trap to have AI that just replaces and imitates humans. So a couple of things we can push back on. First off, there’s a lot of economic incentives right now that I think mistakenly steer us towards favoring capital over labor, like in the United States and most countries for that matter.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Tax policy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Tax policy is much, you know, capitalist taxed much cheaper than labor. So you have two brilliant entrepreneurs, you know, one of which says, I’m going to make a $100 billion company with thousands of employees. And the other ones, I’m going to make $100 billion company with like no employees, but lots of robots. Yeah. The US government says, oh, the first person you know, Alice, you’re going to have to like, pay a lot more taxes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Your whole organization is going to pay a lot more taxes. And the second one is going to pay less. And, you know, the first rule of taxation is like, whatever you tax more, you get less of. So we’re basically putting our thumb on the scale, saying we’re going to get more capital intensive and less labor intensive. Like for most of history, maybe that didn’t matter that much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Your whole organization is going to pay a lot more taxes. And the second one is going to pay less. And, you know, the first rule of taxation is like, whatever you tax more, you get less of. So we’re basically putting our thumb on the scale, saying we’re going to get more capital intensive and less labor intensive. Like for most of history, maybe that didn’t matter that much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It wasn’t that much leverage to to do things different ways. Now we really have the potential and there’s a lot of other tax things you can do. My friend Darren Asamoah, who has written a lot about this Pascual Restrepo. So those are some things that we can do. Like, you know, they’re a really hard core. I’m an economist, but I’ve come to think that actually culture and the way people think about it is more important than the like hard dollars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So here in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, I run into a lot of people who have this mindset that like the goal of AI is to replace humans, and that’s just wrong, I think. And when they all the benchmarks that you see being published, almost all of them are geared towards like, how well can this machine by itself do the task with Andy Hopped and we’ve developed a new set of benchmarks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We call them Centaur benchmarks, sort of like part human, part machine. And the the idea is to say, hey guys, think about not how well a machine by itself can do it, but how can a human and machine together do it? And in many cases, in most cases, the human machine can do better than the machine by itself or the human by itself, but it requires a different architecture.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, Doug Engelbart years ago, you know, talked about how we should make machines that amplify humans. Steve Jobs called it bicycles for the mind, and that that philosophy has kind of been lost out a little bit. I want to revive it more. And if we design machines more to to augment humans and to complement what we’re doing, we’re likely to keep people in the loop.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And ultimately, I think that’s going to not just be fairer. I think it’s going to create a lot more value than trying to get the machine to do everything by itself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Eric, talking about your your early apprehension of the curve we were in and kind of the trajectory of AI, let’s talk situational awareness for people on the ground level. So outside of OpenAI headquarters here in San Francisco, imagine you’re somebody who works at one of the Kaiser hospitals. Great day to day job. How are you going to know that it really is taking off, that you’re inside this exponential, and that this prediction of of a transformational AI era happening pretty fast rather than predictably slow is true.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like day to day, week to week. What what should I be watching for? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Well, you can come to the AI economic indicators and we’ll have we’ll have a monthly update of all those metrics. You know, I’m not I’m not joking about that because I just see so many anecdotes and stories. And honestly, it’s a little frustrating because, you know, every month there’s hundreds of thousands of jobs destroyed, hundreds of thousands created.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you’re a reporter with an angle, you can you can definitely find anecdotes that support your story. And you’ll have some men in the street who tells you what you know, what the people. And I’ve been reading those and I just don’t know how to aggregate them. So, you know, I’m a data person. I’m a statistician. I’m an economist.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So so, you know, getting the stuff aggregated, I think is the way to do it. The problem is that most of our indicators are kind of lagging indicators. And we need more so forward looking leading indicators. And we’re trying to invest in creating those. But but I think that that’s my answer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Promise me when the day comes that you’re like, oh, you’re just going to put it all in one big blink tech.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah. It’s just like a little siren. Yeah, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong> Well, we do actually have these color coded like the transformation tracker. We’ve got like the 12 different metrics, and we color code them by like which ones are moving in the direction. Right now only two of the 12 are moving in that direction. You know, above a significant level. They’re all kind of moving a little bit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So yeah, we can we can you can take a look at that. I just want is it happening dot Stanford. Yes. All right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You give me an idea, we’ll put a little sign up sheet that like if you want, we’ll send you a text message. You know, it’ll be like all 12 indicators. 459 on Thursday. Okay. We were officially hitting the singularity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>AI is advancing at a breakneck pace, but how quickly will that \u003cstrong>actually\u003c/strong> transform the economy? Dream Machines hosts Alexis Madrigal and Robin Sloan talk to Stanford economist Erik Brynjolfsson about what the data can tell us so far, why previous technological revolutions took decades to reshape everyday life, and whether this time will be different. They discuss early signs that AI may already be affecting young workers, what happens to the career ladder when machines take over junior tasks, and where the biggest challenges — and opportunities — lie.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Guest: Erik Brynjolfsson, economist and Director of the \u003ca href=\"https://digitaleconomy.stanford.edu/\">Stanford Digital Economy Lab\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/5HI0RBP-jDk'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/5HI0RBP-jDk'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:00:00 – 00:00:06:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Is this a kind of technology that inherently leads to higher concentrations of wealth and therefore a power?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>00:00:06:14 – 00:00:12:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> I don’t want to say inherently, because I don’t want to be in the prediction business, I want to be in the design business. But there’s a lot of strong forces,the AI itself tends to work better at large scale. That’s why they’re raising hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars. You make the model bigger and it works better. So they said, let’s make it even bigger. And it just keeps working. So that tends to lead to kind of a bit of a winner take most outcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:31:16 – 00:00:39:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: I’m Alexis Madrigal,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin\u003c/strong>: I’m Robin Sloan, and this is Dream Machines. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>It’s a podcast about how AI works, also about how it feels.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:39:14 – 00:00:49:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course, we make it right here in San Francisco, where it’s all happening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>And nobody really disagrees at this point that AI is going to transform the economy in some way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:49:16 – 00:00:54:23\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But one of the questions that is still really open and hotly debated is how fast that is going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:00:55:01 – 00:01:12:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the question of how would we know that it’s being transformed? You certainly read a lot of headlines and see a lot of stock prices go up. But like what’s actually happening out there in offices?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Do we have the economic data that we need to make sense? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. It’s sort of the question of like, what would be the canary in the coal mine?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:01:12:12 – 00:01:25:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as we were looking around for answers to these questions, turns out there’s a paper called \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin & Alexis: \u003c/strong>Canary in the Coal Mine \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Out of the Stanford Digital Economy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Yeah. That’s right. And it’s the work of a scholar there named Erik Brynjolfsson.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:01:25:08 – 00:01:46:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was at MIT for 30 years before coming to Stanford, very early in his understanding of the potentially transformative effects of AI, and has become one of the folks who is really trying to shine a light into the kind of mysterious recesses of the economy so that the rest of us can know, like what is happening and how fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:01:46:23 – 00:01:47:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:01:47:11 – 00:02:08:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because it really matters the time scale. Right? If we have this incredible transformation in three months or in three years or in three decades, it will mean tremendously different society. And we need someone who can tell us, like, where are we on this, on this chart? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>So here is our very own canary in the coal mine Erik\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:02:08:22 – 00:02:10:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brynjolfsson.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:02:10:11 – 00:02:25:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of, as you know, definitions of AI, you know, superintelligence, AGI, you know, just like advanced AI, I’m quite taken by the definition that you used in sort of a formative ad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:02:25:22 – 00:02:47:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah. Transformative AI. You laid this out in a research agenda, you know, for kind of the, the community last year. And there’s a bit more to it. But the core of it is, as you said, we’ll know it’s transformative AI because it’ll have this significant economic effect. It’ll accelerate economic growth from sort of the the baseline that we’ve become accustomed to for a long time now, maybe around 2%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:02:47:17 – 00:03:09:10\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’ll it’ll multiply that by by 3 or 5 times almost without talking about AI specifically, it’d be really interesting to have you dramatize like what that means for for an economy. You know, if that did happen, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>transformative AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Transformative AI that and that growth rate like, like how would that change our our day, our week, our year, our jobs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:03:09:11 – 00:03:35:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Well, these way for me to think of it as by analogy. And so we don’t know for sure what’s going to happen going forward. But we can look back at, say, the industrial revolution. And in the Second Machine Age, Andy McAfee and I wrote about how we went through this big transition from an agricultural society to an industrial society, and we call it the second Machine age, because now we’re having in the early stages of a second big transition like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:03:35:20 – 00:03:56:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The first one was about machines doing what our muscles could do, an animal muscles, and that took growth from being sort of growing very, very slow tenths of a percent per year to growing about 2% per year, which may not sound like much, but you compound it. And now we’re like 30 or 50 times richer than our ancestors were a couple hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:03:56:03 – 00:04:13:13\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that doing now, now, we were able to use machines to augment our minds, our brains. And I think that’s going to be at least as big as what the Industrial Revolution did. And it will transform society at least as much, not just in growth rate, but also like, you know, just what we do in our daily lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:04:13:13 – 00:04:33:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think of the way farmers versus people in factories or modern society, how different that is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Using that analogy, I feel like I should probably know this, but during the Industrial revolution, did people’s lives change in a decade in terms of the kind of work they did, how they worked in the world, the kind of goods and services they, they had access to?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:04:33:01 – 00:04:53:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did it? Was it more of a generational change, like what was the pace of that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> It was actually pretty slow. In fact, there’s something called Engels pause. This period of like several decades, 40, 50 years where there wasn’t much of an improvement in living standards. If you read Charles Dickens, you know, actually life could be pretty miserable, even worse than it was for the people living in agricultural society.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:04:53:06 – 00:05:11:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>As life expectancy declined, people got shorter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Yeah, yeah. All that smoke and soot and and kids working in factories and stuff, you know, it was pretty miserable for the majority of the population. But under the surface, things were changing. And you were beginning to have this productivity gain. But it took a while and eventually it started taking off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:05:11:11 – 00:05:19:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This time around, it’s also going to take longer than I think some of our friends here in San Francisco and Silicon Valley think, but but certainly a lot faster than the last time around\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:05:19:19 – 00:05:24:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back into the historical example. I think it’s actually really useful for people to think about this, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:05:24:05 – 00:05:44:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You have this general purpose technology of \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>general purpose technology, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>which is a term of art, I love it, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>and also I do we were talking about this earlier. I it had not occurred to me that it’s the twin GPT. It seems a little uncanny\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong>. Yeah. So my, my my friend and student, former student Daniel Rock, he wrote a great paper with some folks at OpenAI called GPT RPGs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:05:44:12 – 00:06:03:18\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, generative pre-trained transformers and general purpose technologies. It used to be when I said GPT to economists, we all knew we were talking about general purpose technologies, but the AI people have pretty much stolen that acronym \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>and branded it. Yeah. And for the into it into a global brand\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> So be it. Yeah. But but but general purpose technology is pretty much what drives all economic growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:06:03:18 – 00:06:23:15\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s all these inventions, but there’s just a handful that really raise our living standards. The steam engine was the first really powerful general purpose technology electricity, computers and now AI, which is kind of like the mother of all general purpose technology, I think. So, you know, Demis Hassabis has this. I was over at Google DeepMind a few weeks ago in London.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:06:23:16 – 00:06:41:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They had this mission statement. They want to let me see if I can get it right. They want to solve intelligence and then use that to solve all the other problems in the world. So, you know, modest little mission statement. But but, you know, there’s a lot of truth to the fact that if you really could solve intelligence, there’s so many other things you could solve.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:06:41:11 – 00:06:56:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that is, of course, if you trusted that that’s what people who had solved intelligence would actually do with this intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Well, that’s a very good question. There’s a bunch of things that you can use it for. And also, to be fair, as I’ve come to think harder about the problem, intelligence is not the be all and end all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:06:56:01 – 00:07:06:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of very smart people think and wish it was, but when you get into the real world, you know, just look around us. There’s there’s lots of PhDs in the economy and they don’t like, rule the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:06:12 – 00:07:14:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, you go into a I was at the Starbucks across the street just before coming here, and you walk in there and l\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: Seven PhDs just right in there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:14:05 – 00:07:14:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: Yeah. Imagine\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:14:17 – 00:07:27:21\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>imagine you pull up with a bus and you say, okay, good news. You know, we’ve got Einstein, we’ve got a bus of 200 Einsteins. They’re going to come help you. I think the manager over there be like, oh, well, like, do they know how to push a broom? I mean, what are they going to do? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>I love that\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:27:23 – 00:07:33:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>because that that kind of argument and just even that that playful vision gets into the real crunchy details of like, what happens in an economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:33:19 – 00:07:54:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s not just, you know, sugar and eggs, whip them together and voila, you get growth and productivity. It’s really crunchy. And the thing I like best about your work is that kind of ongoing attempt to to dig in and sort of look for signals. You had the paper called Canary in a coal mine, which feels like exactly what we need most right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:07:54:09 – 00:08:11:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We need those kind of early signals. You know, they might be warning signals in some cases. They might be like hopeful beacons. We’re going to steer towards \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: the Canaries. metaphor for is a little dark at times. Yeah. We didn’t really mean it that way. We meant it in the more general metaphors, like an early warning signal. Yeah. And it’s very uneven.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:08:11:20 – 00:08:27:13\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s part of it. You know, going back to the intelligence point, you know, I just want to finish that earlier point about about these general purpose technologies. They tend to take a long time to play out, because even when you speed up one part, there are other parts that are bottlenecks or weak links to take longer to emerge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:08:27:17 – 00:09:00:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that that gets to your question about the Canaries paper, where we did find that there are certain jobs that are already beginning to be affected and others that are actually going the other way, that are becoming more valuable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>That’s interesting. I mean, so one of the findings, at least as I read it, you can correct me if I’m wrong, is that if there is an impact, it seems to be maybe, as you’d expect on entry level workers, the people who whose contributions can perhaps most seamlessly be replaced by Claude or ChatGPT or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:00:23 – 00:09:14:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>I didn’t necessarily expect that in Vance. I should credit my coauthors, Baratunde and Russian, who did most of the heavy lifting on this, and the folks at ADP who provided all the data. And we went into it, you know, with with a blank slate. We just were open to whatever. Actually,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:14:10 – 00:09:16:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>the first cut at it, we looked at the top line.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:16:15 – 00:09:32:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s not much happening, actually. You know, the overall labor market, it wasn’t that much happening. And we’re kicking around like, okay, maybe write a paper that all these headlines, these newspaper articles are all kind of overblown. And then, you know, Borat and Rudy looked in a little more deeply and they said, wait a minute. There’s like, there’s one group that’s really being affected.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:32:14 – 00:09:36:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Early career workers, especially in the most exposed occupations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:36:21 – 00:09:50:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So one of the things you can do with you can take all the jobs in the economy. 950, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And each of them, you can break down to a bundle of individual tasks. And once you do, at that fine grained level, you can really make headway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:09:50:19 – 00:10:14:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s hard to say whether that AI will replace a radiologist, some people say, but it’s much easier to look at a specific thing. Can it read a medical image? And that’s one of the 26 things that a radiologist does when you break it down to those tasks. And by the way, the paper that did that the best was this GPT are GPTs paper we were just talking about, when you break it down that way, you can rank all the occupations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:14:15 – 00:10:14:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:14:23 – 00:10:24:05\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>then when you also look at the age, you find that the combination of the most exposed occupations with the youngest workers had about a 16% decline in employment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:24:05 – 00:10:33:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin\u003c/strong>: So there’s a couple threads to pull on there and I want to do them both. One is the young workers, kind of the entry level workers and just the whole idea of like careers and and experience and everything else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:33:03 – 00:10:44:17\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the other one is the data. My perception is that right now we as a country, a society, maybe a planet probably don’t have as much data as we would like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:44:19 – 00:10:45:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Oh, no.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:45:09 – 00:10:46:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>it’s a tragedy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:10:46:04 – 00:11:01:05\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I spent a lot of time with our friends in Washington who are, like, working in the statistical agencies, and they’re having their budgets cut. It’s getting, you know, there’s more and more need for better data and less and less resources going into it. I think it’s incredibly foolish. One of the things we’re doing at Stanford is trying to help with that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:01:06 – 00:11:17:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We created something just last month called the Stanford AI Economic Indicators. That is like a dashboard that brings together all this data from a lot of private sources, as well as public sources, so people can look at it in one place instead of all these sort of dueling anecdotes, you know, everyone can see the data\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:17:11 – 00:11:31:07\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>The timing around this technological change of these major changes feels to me like it should be a deflationary narrative about how quickly AI is going to be deployed. But I’m kind of hearing from you, like sort of the opposite of that,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:31:07 – 00:11:45:21\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>that that you feel like there are that, that we are going to deploy this much faster than in these previous instances, even though historically we haven’t been able to do that, that it’s just there’s all this inertia across so many different sectors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:45:21 – 00:11:54:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it also sounds to me a little bit from the data board that like that is what’s happening. It is taking longer, you know, and I know both of us well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:54:10 – 00:11:56:01\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Erik: Well, I think both of those things are true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:11:56:02 – 00:12:11:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I would say, you know, I wrote about the need for these complementary investments. I wrote a paper called about the productivity paradox, about the first wave and then about this wave, and most importantly, a paper called The Productivity J curve with Chad Stephenson and Daniel Rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:11:02 – 00:12:13:07\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they all make this point that, you know,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:13:07 – 00:12:31:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>just because you have amazing technology, it doesn’t translate into productivity, business changes, transformation of the economy. That said that said, I think it’s happening a lot faster this time than with the Industrial revolution or with electricity, which also took like 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:31:10 – 00:12:34:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s just a lot of structural reasons why it’s going faster.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:34:08 – 00:12:53:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For one thing, you know, the internet has been built out, so we can just go from 0 to 100 million users of ChatGPT and like, you know, what was it, 60 days and now it’s a billion. Yeah, but like just going super fast and and a lot of the cognitive work, you can, you know, like software, you can do it a lot faster now than you could.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:12:53:07 – 00:13:10:21\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s still there’s still a lot of bottlenecks which you know, so I find myself sort of between these worlds when I talk to most economists and, you know, in New York or Washington or in businesses, you know, they see all the the structural barriers. When I talk to the guys at the Frontier Labs, they’re like, oh, we’re going to have RSI, recursive self-improvement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:13:10:21 – 00:13:26:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s all going to happen super fast. And I point out a bottleneck and they’re like, oh, AI will solve that. Yeah, yeah. And I’m kind of I’m kind of between them I put myself, you know, they’re like probably two orders of magnitude apart from each other in terms of rate of speed. And I’m at the geometric mean like one order of magnitude.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:13:26:11 – 00:13:45:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I do think it’s faster than most people in the rest of the world are ready for. And that’s why we create that statement about we must act now. I do also, at the same time think that that most of the technologists, they haven’t really spent as much time in big companies as I have and realized like how hard it is to get them to change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:13:45:04 – 00:14:11:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: Can I ask this though, knowing that you have a company that is essentially trying to accelerate the change? Is there an argument to be made that letting this take some time is actually a good thing for society? Because this kind of disjunction in a labor market, or in just the value of intelligence or any of the ways that we might describe this transformation, is actually kind of a good thing to let it settle in more slowly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:14:11:16 – 00:14:36:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>I agree with your core point, and but what I would say is that we need to speed up our understanding. We need to speed up our adaptation to it. We need to speed up our reskilling and, you know, be prepared or preparation. At the same time, I’m very sympathetic to the idea that those core capabilities, you know, there was just another statement that come out, these statements are all coming out about what they call it pacing, pacing, pacing the frontier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:14:36:13 – 00:14:39:17\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Right. Exactly. Which is, you know, that’s on the capability side. So,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:14:39:17 – 00:14:54:10\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>so the way I think about it is that there are these two lines. One of them is skyrocketing, which is the capabilities. The other one is our ability to adapt to it, which is barely moving. And that gap is where most of the big problems and challenges and opportunities lie over the next 5 or 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:14:54:11 – 00:15:05:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s where all the action is. Until all my economist friends, you should be focusing on that gap. My part of it is to close the gap from the bottom and like, speed up our understanding. Other people can think about the technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:15:05:16 – 00:15:12:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> You know, we’re talking about sort of the acceleration of an economy, but there’s also this simultaneous thing that that maybe is different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:15:12:01 – 00:15:31:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like maybe there’s a historical analogy for this, maybe there’s not. I think of it almost as like the weirding of the economy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik:\u003c/strong> Yes\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>And this connects to a couple of things that we’ve talked about. You know, the idea that suddenly there’s no such thing as an entry level worker. Instead, you can only be, you know, a senior software engineer with an army of AI bots, and you’re really good at them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:15:31:00 – 00:15:52:21\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it raises the question of like, where do senior engineers or senior people of any kind come from anymore? Also, you know, again, to to make that industrial Revolution analogy, it’s interesting to consider that when you replace your, you know, horses going around a post with a steam engine, even though that’s new and kind of radical, you fundamentally do understand how that works.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:15:52:23 – 00:16:12:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whereas when you replace your software engineering team with bots, you probably don’t understand how it works anymore. Do these differences I mean, do these matter? Should we really be looking closely at these, this this weirdness?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong> I mean, those are those two parts of your question are so different in my mind. Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, they’re both weird.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:16:12:20 – 00:16:28:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can talk. Yeah, I’ll put them on that. So let me let me do one at a time because I think they’re both interesting to talk about. So on the on the junior versus senior this is this is a real problem. Like we describe earlier the data that there’s less demand for these young workers. But where do the middle managers come from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:16:28:08 – 00:16:44:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Where are the senior workers come from. And you need them. And you need people with that kind of judgment. And we used to have this grand bargain where people come in sometimes do some kind of boring Scott work. But in the process, sort of by osmosis, they would learn how the business ran, learn how to be a lawyer or a doctor or investment bank or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:16:44:11 – 00:17:01:23\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now they don’t have that opportunity. And I think part of the answer has to be we have to like, consciously and explicitly train them. I was talking to some folks at Infosys and, you know, they their junior people are very much in the bullseye of not being needed as much, but they tell me that they’re still hiring a bunch of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:17:01:23 – 00:17:23:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now instead of having them do some of that boring work that AI could now do, they are explicitly training them with an AI system. Actually, AI can be a really good tutor and it can help them learn faster. So that’s that’s part of the. That’s one approach to the answer. I think it’s going to be kind of a new social contract that we have to think about, because we don’t just abandon this whole generation of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:17:23:12 – 00:17:44:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, I’ll tell you a little bit of a, of a of a sad story. Well, hopefully it has a good ending. A student came to me in my office a couple of months ago graduating from Stanford. Pretty good school. And she said, I don’t have a job. My friends don’t have jobs. Is my generation doomed? And I was like, whoa, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:17:44:04 – 00:17:59:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, you’re a Stanford student. You should be optimistic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis:\u003c/strong> I know I’m a mindful optimist what do you mean?.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong> You should be. You’re graduating. And what I tried to say was, look, you know, I don’t want to sugarcoat it. There’s a bunch of jobs disappearing, like you just said, but the other on the other side, you know, you can use these tools to do things you never could have before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:17:59:14 – 00:18:16:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve got superpowers where you can do vibe coding and create all sorts of software. That would have been impossible five years ago or even one year ago, and you needed to lean into those new possibilities. There’s more startups being started than ever before, because a lot of people are seeing this opportunity to create things they couldn’t have done before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:18:16:08 – 00:18:33:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you know, that’s what I tried to teach my class. I have a master class that also does this, but I really want people to, you know, you know, I understand the downside, but I think there’s almost too much emphasis on that. And there should be more of a leaning in to AI allowing you to do new things you never could have done before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:18:33:22 – 00:18:55:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re harder to see because a lot of them didn’t exist before, but that’s where the opportunity is. And that’s the part I want to speed up, is that is the transition to those new opportunities. I don’t want to just ossify everything and try to freeze everything in place. I don’t think that’s the strategy. We need to be nimble and have that more flexible opportunity to create new jobs, new opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:18:55:15 – 00:19:16:15\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>another recent historical analogy to this is, you know, self-driving cars, where we essentially see them being, generally speaking, safer drivers than human drivers. But when they do make a mistake, it tends to be sort of a novel mistake or the kind of the way the system breaks down is we could not have anticipated, you know, power outage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:19:16:18 – 00:19:39:05\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: Yeah, it’s like an alien intelligence. Yeah. It is it exactly. Respect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> They respect the cones too much. You know yourself driving cars. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Exactly. They worship the code, but they don’t worship some other things. And, you know, as an economist, actually, you know, this is can be a little dangerous and off putting. It’s also an opportunity like for in economics, gains from trade happen when there’s two entities that are very different from each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:19:39:05 – 00:19:55:13\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If they’re identical to each other, there’s not much room for for gains from trade. So actually mostly encourage the folks at the Frontier Labs to lean into making the A’s really good at things that humans are not good at, and let us be good at the things we’re good at. I think too often they do it the other way around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:19:55:14 – 00:20:14:10\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re trying to, like, smooth the edges and and make them good at things that are that’s hard for machines and easy for us, like, you know, buttoning a shirt or, or and ultimately, the fact that it’s an alien intelligence means that we can lean on it to do some amazing things. But there will still be a role for humans, which I think is important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:14:11 – 00:20:14:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:14:20 – 00:20:31:08\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s good to not replace all the things that humans are doing. I wrote this paper, The Turing Trap, where I basically argued it’s a mistake. It’s to do what Alan Turing said, which is make AI that’s a perfect imitation of humans. We should make it different so we each have something to contribute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:31:10 – 00:20:36:23\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s funny, we can flip this around, you know, almost perfectly here on the podcast and in are there conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:37:00 – 00:20:56:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alexis and I are cautious and often critical of AI, particularly the industry, but we’re also quite enchanted by the the spaces inside these models. You know, these these mysterious high dimensional spaces and their capacity and the things they seem to be able to organize and then kind of cross connect in ways that humans can’t, certainly not at that scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:20:56:09 – 00:21:13:05\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it makes me think of, you know, the old ancient, almost economics debate between central planning and sort of, you know, action at the edges. And you, of course, know this well. But for folks listening to the podcast, there’s a few different ways you can organize an economy. You could have, you know, yeah, you could have planning. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:21:13:06 – 00:21:30:01\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Robin and Alexis deciding exactly how much to make of everything, you know, all fashionable t shirts and and cool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>What a great world that would be. Yeah. And you know, this, this has the benefit of coherency. And you can actually have a plan and execute it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>It can be aligned with the values of your society, at least supposedly in theory, all these things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:21:30:01 – 00:21:49:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>But then way over on the other side, you have the idea of you have the sense that the real information about how the world works and what people want and what the problems are, of course, where they’re at the edges, you know, in people’s lives all distributed in their kitchens, in their businesses. Sort of the Haken view of like the great sensor of the market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:21:49:18 – 00:22:12:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now it does seem so that was that was the story, you know, at least up until 2020, 2023. It does seem like maybe we have these machines now with a capacity that could change that balance a little bit. So first of all, I ask you, like do you see some of that potential. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Sure. No. This is a big like let me just say you’ve heard I’m pretty optimistic, excited about the productivity potential and creating a enormous amount of wealth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:22:12:02 – 00:22:31:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the things that I’m most worried about is it could be very badly distributed, where everything gets really, really centralized. And the core reason for that is what you just brought up. You know, Friedrich Hayek wrote this amazing paper called The Use of Knowledge in Society, which, you know, articulate what you just said, that most useful knowledge is, like widely dispersed in the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:22:31:07 – 00:22:47:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, you know, does this do people in this neighborhood like peppermint ice cream or is this truck half empty? And maybe we could put some more stuff on it or whatever. There’s all this, like detailed information. And he argued that there’s no way a central planner, even guy’s as smart as you two, could make all the decisions in the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:22:47:04 – 00:23:06:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s just too much of this detailed information. And that was totally true for the 20th century and up until recently. But Zoe Hitzig and I have written a paper called AI’s Use of Knowledge in Society, where we argue that, wait a minute, you know, you could actually go take these trillions of parameters and make all sorts of decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:23:07:00 – 00:23:32:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You could use the Internet of Things and other techniques to bring data and bring it all to, say, Bentonville, Arkansas, to pick up arbitrary city. And you’d be able to know all sorts of information about what’s happening and make decisions. And it’s actually beginning to happen. You know, when you look at the data and big centralized retailers are out competing, those mom and pop mom, mom and pop shops, they know more about what people want in each neighborhood and which trucks are empty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:23:32:13 – 00:23:41:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have all that detailed information that hikes. It would be impossible, which is great for efficiency, but it may not be the best thing for freedom and democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:23:41:21 – 00:23:43:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>we need to think hard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:23:43:02 – 00:24:07:04\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, while we have some optionality, how can we design a world where we maintain our freedom, maintain our decentralization of decision making, and that if we go too far down the path of disempowering people, it may be very hard to reverse course later. And for what it’s worth, everyone’s noticed. It’s kind of beginning to happen, right? And we better take it seriously because we go much further down that path.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:24:07:04 – 00:24:08:03\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’ll be too late. Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:24:08:03 – 00:24:34:16\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>I did want to ask you. I mean, this is from your book, Second Machine Age, of course, you coauthored \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>with Andy. Andy McAfee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alexis: And you have to paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr. The arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. We think the data support this. We’ve seen not just vast increases in wealth, but also, on the whole, more freedom, more social justice, less violence, and less less harsh conditions for the least fortunate and greater opportunities for more and more people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:24:34:20 – 00:24:52:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think, like there have been the majority of my life, I think I would have more or less agreed with this. I think in the last ten years, my own kind of priors have been challenged on this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Not just you. Yeah, no, we wrote that in 2014. I’m glad that I just checked. And it’s like it’s got more and more sales and citations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:24:52:02 – 00:25:10:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I’m glad that it’s it’s got legs that way. And that was sort of maybe like the peak of this,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alexis: Obama era story optimism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Exactly. But but speaking of Obama, you know, he modified that quote and he said that it bends. You know, I’m going to misquote him, but but the gist of what he was saying was, got a push on the ark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:25:10:20 – 00:25:27:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis\u003c/strong>: You got to push on it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik\u003c/strong>: It doesn’t happen automatically. We won’t just sit back and watch it happen. And that’s very much, you know, you mentioned I call myself a mindful optimist. You know, that the arc of history bends if and only if we push it. And I think lately it’s been going the wrong way. It’s also long, like Martin Luther King said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:25:27:06 – 00:25:44:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you know, it’s not going to be monotonic where it always improves every month or every year. So I think it’s fair to say we’ve had some backsliding and some bad things have happened. I’m still optimistic, maybe a little less optimistic than I was in 2014, but I’m hopeful that that work harder. But but this is exactly why I do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:25:44:06 – 00:26:13:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I do is I’m not here to predict the future. I’m here to say, here are some possible futures, and here are some levers that matter. And we need to push on them, because most of us do want not just more abundance, but also more freedom and shared prosperity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Can I can I keep pushing on this one a little bit just because I think there’s, you know, even some people in this building here at KQED who their their biggest concern about AI, they have they have many environmental this and other things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:26:13:02 – 00:26:13:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:26:13:08 – 00:26:42:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>it’s really about particularly being here in San Francisco. You really see it the concentration of wealth. And then, you know, our city politics has been taken over by tech wealth. It’s like it’s also the concentration of power that that goes along \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Those tend to go together, don’t they.? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Yes. Yeah. And I guess the, the maybe more difficult version of this question is do you think that AI, as a result of the what the frontier models need, the amount of capital that you need to deploy to do these things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:26:42:10 – 00:27:04:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is this a kind of technology that inherently leads to higher concentrations of wealth and therefore a power? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to say inherently, because I don’t want to be in the prediction business, I want to be in the design business. But there’s a lot of strong forces, and there’s two sets that are particularly obvious to me. One is, you know, the scaling laws and the fact that the AI itself tends to work better at large scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:27:04:22 – 00:27:28:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s why they’re raising hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars to build bigger and bigger data centers. But yeah, borrowing and and, you know, there’s just this amazing thing that Dario Modi and others noted that you make the model bigger and it works better. So they said, let’s make it even bigger. And it just keeps working. So that tends to lead to kind of a bit of a winner take most outcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:27:28:14 – 00:27:44:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Actually, I’ve been somewhat surprised how many frontier labs there still are. It hasn’t all just concentrating to one singleton. But you know, who knows where that’s going to go. It certainly you have to be pretty big to be a player in that, but the one that I’m more concerned about is the other, like 90% of the economy,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:27:44:22 – 00:27:56:18\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>that, you know, whether you’re in retail or manufacturing or health or whatever, you know, having decentralized information may not be as competitive with having it become more centralized.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:27:56:18 – 00:28:15:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that could also lead. And it has been if you look at the data, there has been more concentration. So we need to think harder about how do we decentralize it. I mean, part of one of the answers that I would put forward is this idea of pushing AI to complement humans rather than substitute for them. But we need to look at all levers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:28:15:22 – 00:28:41:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin:\u003c/strong> Thinking about that discussion about centralization, about kind of where the power, where the money resides is that change in the capital versus labor share of the economy a warning sign? I mean, if that continues, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>yes, yes, this one I’m not going to hedge on. So so capital is inherently much more concentrated than labor. You know, the cool thing about labor, even though it’s pretty uneven, like we all have basically one brain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:28:41:09 – 00:28:57:15\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And like some of them, you know, maybe a little smarter than others, but but, you know, it’s distributed through the economy. You know, no matter how smart you are, you can’t run a whole fortune 500 corporation. So you delegate stuff, and the whole economy has all these delegated decisions to all these different brains. But with capital, you can concentrate it much more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:28:57:15 – 00:29:19:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And empirically, you know, the income from capital is much more concentrated in a small fraction of the people. So, you know, we were saying earlier that economic power begets political power. So that’s something I worry about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>I mean, what would that world even look like? You know, I’ve looked at some other countries that have labor share that’s like much lower.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:29:19:10 – 00:29:39:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, labor share of income is much lower. And it’s not a good set of countries. They’re like resource cursed countries that Saudi Arabia, it’s like mineral mining countries. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Exactly, And you get these like gated communities and these people who have a lot of wealth. I was talking to somebody from a Latin American country. She’s very wealthy. And she said, you know, all the wealthy people in my country are in prisons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:29:39:00 – 00:29:46:22\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And like, what do you mean they’re in prison? She said, well, the prison of our own construction, like we can’t go outside of our houses when we ever. I get into a car, I have like guards on either side of me\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:29:47:00 – 00:30:08:11\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like one of those dystopian science fiction movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Yeah. What? What interventions could we at least start to prepare for now, economically? And obviously there’s a whole suite of politics and, you know, who we elect and how we organize ourselves as a city. But just thinking about economic policy, what what are what would be some smart things to start thinking about right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:30:08:12 – 00:30:31:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>So I think we have some levers to push back against this, and that’s why I care about it. So I did write this paper, The Turing Trap, about how it’s a trap to have AI that just replaces and imitates humans. So a couple of things we can push back on. First off, there’s a lot of economic incentives right now that I think mistakenly steer us towards favoring capital over labor, like in the United States and most countries for that matter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:30:31:13 – 00:30:55:00\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Tax policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Tax policy is much, you know, capitalist taxed much cheaper than labor. So you have two brilliant entrepreneurs, you know, one of which says, I’m going to make a $100 billion company with thousands of employees. And the other ones, I’m going to make $100 billion company with like no employees, but lots of robots. Yeah. The US government says, oh, the first person you know, Alice, you’re going to have to like, pay a lot more taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:30:55:00 – 00:31:11:06\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your whole organization is going to pay a lot more taxes. And the second one is going to pay less. And, you know, the first rule of taxation is like, whatever you tax more, you get less of. So we’re basically putting our thumb on the scale, saying we’re going to get more capital intensive and less labor intensive. Like for most of history, maybe that didn’t matter that much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:31:11:06 – 00:31:34:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It wasn’t that much leverage to to do things different ways. Now we really have the potential and there’s a lot of other tax things you can do. My friend Darren Asamoah, who has written a lot about this Pascual Restrepo. So those are some things that we can do. Like, you know, they’re a really hard core. I’m an economist, but I’ve come to think that actually culture and the way people think about it is more important than the like hard dollars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:31:34:02 – 00:31:59:13\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So here in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, I run into a lot of people who have this mindset that like the goal of AI is to replace humans, and that’s just wrong, I think. And when they all the benchmarks that you see being published, almost all of them are geared towards like, how well can this machine by itself do the task with Andy Hopped and we’ve developed a new set of benchmarks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:31:59:13 – 00:32:18:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We call them Centaur benchmarks, sort of like part human, part machine. And the the idea is to say, hey guys, think about not how well a machine by itself can do it, but how can a human and machine together do it? And in many cases, in most cases, the human machine can do better than the machine by itself or the human by itself, but it requires a different architecture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:32:18:20 – 00:32:41:15\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, Doug Engelbart years ago, you know, talked about how we should make machines that amplify humans. Steve Jobs called it bicycles for the mind, and that that philosophy has kind of been lost out a little bit. I want to revive it more. And if we design machines more to to augment humans and to complement what we’re doing, we’re likely to keep people in the loop.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:32:41:15 – 00:32:48:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And ultimately, I think that’s going to not just be fairer. I think it’s going to create a lot more value than trying to get the machine to do everything by itself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:32:48:20 – 00:33:23:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin: \u003c/strong>Eric, talking about your your early apprehension of the curve we were in and kind of the trajectory of AI, let’s talk situational awareness for people on the ground level. So outside of OpenAI headquarters here in San Francisco, imagine you’re somebody who works at one of the Kaiser hospitals. Great day to day job. How are you going to know that it really is taking off, that you’re inside this exponential, and that this prediction of of a transformational AI era happening pretty fast rather than predictably slow is true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:33:23:20 – 00:33:44:12\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like day to day, week to week. What what should I be watching for? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong>Well, you can come to the AI economic indicators and we’ll have we’ll have a monthly update of all those metrics. You know, I’m not I’m not joking about that because I just see so many anecdotes and stories. And honestly, it’s a little frustrating because, you know, every month there’s hundreds of thousands of jobs destroyed, hundreds of thousands created.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:33:44:12 – 00:34:01:02\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you’re a reporter with an angle, you can you can definitely find anecdotes that support your story. And you’ll have some men in the street who tells you what you know, what the people. And I’ve been reading those and I just don’t know how to aggregate them. So, you know, I’m a data person. I’m a statistician. I’m an economist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:34:01:02 – 00:34:21:14\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So so, you know, getting the stuff aggregated, I think is the way to do it. The problem is that most of our indicators are kind of lagging indicators. And we need more so forward looking leading indicators. And we’re trying to invest in creating those. But but I think that that’s my answer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis: \u003c/strong>Promise me when the day comes that you’re like, oh, you’re just going to put it all in one big blink tech.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:34:21:16 – 00:34:42:09\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unknown\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah. It’s just like a little siren. Yeah, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik: \u003c/strong> Well, we do actually have these color coded like the transformation tracker. We’ve got like the 12 different metrics, and we color code them by like which ones are moving in the direction. Right now only two of the 12 are moving in that direction. You know, above a significant level. They’re all kind of moving a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:34:42:12 – 00:35:02:19\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So yeah, we can we can you can take a look at that. I just want is it happening dot Stanford. Yes. All right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You give me an idea, we’ll put a little sign up sheet that like if you want, we’ll send you a text message. You know, it’ll be like all 12 indicators. 459 on Thursday. Okay. We were officially hitting the singularity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:35:02:21 – 00:35:16:18\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay. Until then, yes, until next Thursday. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for your time. Such a pleasure. Yeah. Wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>00:35:16:20 – 00:35:20:20\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/24/us/j-stuart-adams-utah-senate-data-center.html\">Utah Senate President Loses Primary After Data Center Backlash\u003c/a> — Jack Healy, \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a show from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ugh \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[ad break]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It depends more on what we do with demand for the technology. Where and how companies build out their data centers and especially how they choose to power them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are we going to live in a world where demand pushes back our transition to clean energy, locking us into fossil fuels for decades? We’re seeing some of that world right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The politics of clean energy can look grim…But as long as clean-energy technologies keep getting cheaper and easier to scale, the optimistic scenario is still on the table.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Meghan Busse, an economist and associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. Support and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>END\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/24/us/j-stuart-adams-utah-senate-data-center.html\">Utah Senate President Loses Primary After Data Center Backlash\u003c/a> — Jack Healy, \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/24/us/j-stuart-adams-utah-senate-data-center.html\">Utah Senate President Loses Primary After Data Center Backlash\u003c/a> — Jack Healy, \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a show from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ugh \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It depends more on what we do with demand for the technology. Where and how companies build out their data centers and especially how they choose to power them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are we going to live in a world where demand pushes back our transition to clean energy, locking us into fossil fuels for decades? We’re seeing some of that world right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The politics of clean energy can look grim…But as long as clean-energy technologies keep getting cheaper and easier to scale, the optimistic scenario is still on the table.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Life Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Meghan Busse, an economist and associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? Economist Meghan Busse suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/24/us/j-stuart-adams-utah-senate-data-center.html\">Utah Senate President Loses Primary After Data Center Backlash\u003c/a> — Jack Healy, \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a show from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ugh \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It depends more on what we do with demand for the technology. Where and how companies build out their data centers and especially how they choose to power them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are we going to live in a world where demand pushes back our transition to clean energy, locking us into fossil fuels for decades? We’re seeing some of that world right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The politics of clean energy can look grim…But as long as clean-energy technologies keep getting cheaper and easier to scale, the optimistic scenario is still on the table.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Meghan Busse, an economist and associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. Support and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>END\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Remember Your Mom’s ‘Tanda’? Young Latinos Are Giving It a Tech-Savvy Twist",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>How We Get By\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a KQED series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. Find the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>full series here\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the span of four months, Juan Carrillo’s life got flipped around. He lost two family members in January: a brother and a nephew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On top of his grief, the 49-year-old Fresno resident and his family were staring down funeral bills, each costing more than $10,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Everything has done a complete 360-degree turn; you just don’t see it coming, and you don’t even know where else to find the money to make your regular payments,” Carrillo said in Spanish. “In one way or another, we had to help our families.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of the unexpected expenses, he fell behind on rent and utility payments, even though he was working three jobs — as a DJ, an Uber driver and as a construction worker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Carrillo got a boon at just the right time: in January, he received $900 in his bank account, which helped his family cover some of the funeral expenses. That was thanks to his tanda, a community-based lending circle, in which members contribute small amounts of money regularly — in his case, $150 each month — and take turns receiving a lump-sum payout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s how we help each other,” Carrillo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090543\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090543\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo stands for a portrait at his home in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to contribute to funeral expenses for two of his family members because of it. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A tanda is a centuries-old financial system widely used across Latin America that functions as a community-based savings-and-lending circle. The system relies on trust among its members — usually small groups of six to 10 — and has historically operated in cash, similar to an interest-free savings plan or an informal loan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, however, tandas are becoming more modernized, with apps and other tech tools drawing in younger generations of Latinos. And as California’s cost of living continues to increase, more people are turning to tandas as a way to get out of a tight spot, to save money and build credit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is very expensive to live in these areas,” said Mariel Hernandez, a spokesperson for Bay Area nonprofit \u003ca href=\"https://www.missionassetfund.org/\">Mission Asset Fund\u003c/a>. “California’s affordability crisis has made predatory lending more dangerous and more tempting at the same time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her organization partnered with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.elfus.org/\">Education and Leadership Foundation\u003c/a>, based in Fresno, more than three years ago to expand access to these traditional lending circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090555\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090555\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo displays his delivery driver badge in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to buy new tires for his car with a loan from the tanda. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Both nonprofits use the model as a way to help communities build savings and access small, no-interest loans through structured, community-based programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Raúl Hinojosa-Ojeda, a professor of Chicano studies at the University of California, Los Angeles, said the origins of tandas go back centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re not new,” Hinojosa-Ojeda said. “There’s multi-thousand-year-old roots of communal labor in Mexico, there’s 1,000-year-old roots in Asia of communal work and communal savings and lending.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hinojosa-Ojeda said tandas made their way to California in the 19th century, when immigrants from China and Mexico brought the collective savings practices to the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090556\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090556\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A new tire on delivery driver Juan Carrillo’s car in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to buy new tires for his car with a loan from the tanda. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Traditionally, participants knew each other; they were family members, neighbors, friends, and coworkers. Trust is essential within the tanda because a person is less likely to take the money and never return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the systems operated by the Education and Leadership Foundation and Mission Asset Fund, participants are strangers, and they no longer operate with cash. Instead, they use an app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the organizations are able to guarantee funding if a person drops out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The concept is very similar,” Hinojosa-Ojeda said. “People join, and then they agree to deposit money into a fund that’s controlled by a trusted body.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090546\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090546\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Community Engagement Coordinator Carmen Cardenas shows the “MyMAF” portal on her phone at the Education and Leadership Foundation office in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. MyMAF is a model by Mission Asset Fund that helps community members build their savings, credit, and access small loans. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hernandez said community members turn to tandas for any number of reasons, including household emergencies or securing a down payment for a home or for rent. She uses tandas herself and said she’s received $1,200 that helped cover the tuition costs of her master’s degree, as well as her Bay Area apartment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It can be for buying back-to-school supplies, sending money to family abroad, sometimes it’s even covering quinceañeras,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When 24-year-old David Medina was feeling the pressure of the holiday season late last year, he realized he didn’t have enough money to buy gifts for his family.[aside postID=news_12084761 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/IMG_1522.jpg']“And then I remembered, ‘Wait, I’m about to get my money from the tanda.’ That money can go straight into my Christmas shopping,” Medina said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He had been paying $100 a month and received $1,000 just before the holidays. The timing helped turn a stressful situation into a manageable one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That money that I didn’t know I had put aside, I had it, and it worked perfectly,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With the extra cash, Medina was able to buy gifts: toys, new clothes, household items, and food. It helped his family enjoy a more comfortable Christmas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carmen Cardenas, the community engagement coordinator for Education and Leadership Foundation, joined a tanda to celebrate her 24th birthday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I received the loan, I wasn’t wanting to go into credit card debt for my birthday celebration, so I saved the money that I got from the lending circle to put it towards that,” Cardenas said. “I was able to use that money and then keep paying it back as the lending circle went on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She makes it a priority to participate in tandas whenever the opportunity arises, viewing them as an important way to manage her finances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090547\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090547\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Community Engagement Coordinator Carmen Cardenas stands for a portrait at the Education and Leadership Foundation (ELF) office in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Cardenas assists ELF community members with signing up for tandas, also known as lending circles, and has made use of them for her own expenses. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Through the Mission Asset Fund app — which is now available through partnerships in Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, New York and Washington — Cardenas is instantly alerted whenever a scheduled payment is processed, allowing her to track when money has been automatically withdrawn from her bank account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, Medina has grown to love tandas — not just because he can save money along the way, but also because he’s actively building and strengthening his credit score through the Mission Asset Fund’s app, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After college, I didn’t really build my credit,” Medina said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After receiving his last payout, he signed up for another tanda and is set to collect $750 later this year — again with the ability to track and access his payments instantly from his devices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090548\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090548\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo prays at an altar honoring his brother and nephew in his home in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo was able to contribute to funeral expenses for his brother and nephew after joining a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The ability to build credit scores also interested Carrillo, not for himself, but for his 18- and 20-year-old sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In this country, you move forward with credit; without credit, you don’t,” Carrillo said. “Everything relies on credit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’d be tempting to lean on credit to keep up with California’s rising costs, but Carrillo said the tandas have helped him manage it. And, when tragedy struck, the tanda was there with quick cash and zero debt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thank God because it arrived at a time [of need],” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Remember Your Mom’s ‘Tanda’? Young Latinos Are Giving It a Tech-Savvy Twist | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>How We Get By\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a KQED series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. Find the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>full series here\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the span of four months, Juan Carrillo’s life got flipped around. He lost two family members in January: a brother and a nephew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On top of his grief, the 49-year-old Fresno resident and his family were staring down funeral bills, each costing more than $10,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Everything has done a complete 360-degree turn; you just don’t see it coming, and you don’t even know where else to find the money to make your regular payments,” Carrillo said in Spanish. “In one way or another, we had to help our families.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of the unexpected expenses, he fell behind on rent and utility payments, even though he was working three jobs — as a DJ, an Uber driver and as a construction worker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Carrillo got a boon at just the right time: in January, he received $900 in his bank account, which helped his family cover some of the funeral expenses. That was thanks to his tanda, a community-based lending circle, in which members contribute small amounts of money regularly — in his case, $150 each month — and take turns receiving a lump-sum payout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s how we help each other,” Carrillo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090543\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090543\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo stands for a portrait at his home in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to contribute to funeral expenses for two of his family members because of it. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A tanda is a centuries-old financial system widely used across Latin America that functions as a community-based savings-and-lending circle. The system relies on trust among its members — usually small groups of six to 10 — and has historically operated in cash, similar to an interest-free savings plan or an informal loan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, however, tandas are becoming more modernized, with apps and other tech tools drawing in younger generations of Latinos. And as California’s cost of living continues to increase, more people are turning to tandas as a way to get out of a tight spot, to save money and build credit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is very expensive to live in these areas,” said Mariel Hernandez, a spokesperson for Bay Area nonprofit \u003ca href=\"https://www.missionassetfund.org/\">Mission Asset Fund\u003c/a>. “California’s affordability crisis has made predatory lending more dangerous and more tempting at the same time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her organization partnered with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.elfus.org/\">Education and Leadership Foundation\u003c/a>, based in Fresno, more than three years ago to expand access to these traditional lending circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090555\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090555\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo displays his delivery driver badge in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to buy new tires for his car with a loan from the tanda. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Both nonprofits use the model as a way to help communities build savings and access small, no-interest loans through structured, community-based programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Raúl Hinojosa-Ojeda, a professor of Chicano studies at the University of California, Los Angeles, said the origins of tandas go back centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re not new,” Hinojosa-Ojeda said. “There’s multi-thousand-year-old roots of communal labor in Mexico, there’s 1,000-year-old roots in Asia of communal work and communal savings and lending.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hinojosa-Ojeda said tandas made their way to California in the 19th century, when immigrants from China and Mexico brought the collective savings practices to the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090556\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090556\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A new tire on delivery driver Juan Carrillo’s car in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to buy new tires for his car with a loan from the tanda. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Traditionally, participants knew each other; they were family members, neighbors, friends, and coworkers. Trust is essential within the tanda because a person is less likely to take the money and never return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the systems operated by the Education and Leadership Foundation and Mission Asset Fund, participants are strangers, and they no longer operate with cash. Instead, they use an app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the organizations are able to guarantee funding if a person drops out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The concept is very similar,” Hinojosa-Ojeda said. “People join, and then they agree to deposit money into a fund that’s controlled by a trusted body.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090546\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090546\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Community Engagement Coordinator Carmen Cardenas shows the “MyMAF” portal on her phone at the Education and Leadership Foundation office in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. MyMAF is a model by Mission Asset Fund that helps community members build their savings, credit, and access small loans. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hernandez said community members turn to tandas for any number of reasons, including household emergencies or securing a down payment for a home or for rent. She uses tandas herself and said she’s received $1,200 that helped cover the tuition costs of her master’s degree, as well as her Bay Area apartment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It can be for buying back-to-school supplies, sending money to family abroad, sometimes it’s even covering quinceañeras,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When 24-year-old David Medina was feeling the pressure of the holiday season late last year, he realized he didn’t have enough money to buy gifts for his family.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“And then I remembered, ‘Wait, I’m about to get my money from the tanda.’ That money can go straight into my Christmas shopping,” Medina said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He had been paying $100 a month and received $1,000 just before the holidays. The timing helped turn a stressful situation into a manageable one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That money that I didn’t know I had put aside, I had it, and it worked perfectly,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With the extra cash, Medina was able to buy gifts: toys, new clothes, household items, and food. It helped his family enjoy a more comfortable Christmas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carmen Cardenas, the community engagement coordinator for Education and Leadership Foundation, joined a tanda to celebrate her 24th birthday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I received the loan, I wasn’t wanting to go into credit card debt for my birthday celebration, so I saved the money that I got from the lending circle to put it towards that,” Cardenas said. “I was able to use that money and then keep paying it back as the lending circle went on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She makes it a priority to participate in tandas whenever the opportunity arises, viewing them as an important way to manage her finances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090547\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090547\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Community Engagement Coordinator Carmen Cardenas stands for a portrait at the Education and Leadership Foundation (ELF) office in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Cardenas assists ELF community members with signing up for tandas, also known as lending circles, and has made use of them for her own expenses. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Through the Mission Asset Fund app — which is now available through partnerships in Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, New York and Washington — Cardenas is instantly alerted whenever a scheduled payment is processed, allowing her to track when money has been automatically withdrawn from her bank account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, Medina has grown to love tandas — not just because he can save money along the way, but also because he’s actively building and strengthening his credit score through the Mission Asset Fund’s app, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After college, I didn’t really build my credit,” Medina said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After receiving his last payout, he signed up for another tanda and is set to collect $750 later this year — again with the ability to track and access his payments instantly from his devices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090548\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090548\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo prays at an altar honoring his brother and nephew in his home in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo was able to contribute to funeral expenses for his brother and nephew after joining a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The ability to build credit scores also interested Carrillo, not for himself, but for his 18- and 20-year-old sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In this country, you move forward with credit; without credit, you don’t,” Carrillo said. “Everything relies on credit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’d be tempting to lean on credit to keep up with California’s rising costs, but Carrillo said the tandas have helped him manage it. And, when tragedy struck, the tanda was there with quick cash and zero debt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thank God because it arrived at a time [of need],” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "surveillance-pricing-is-making-life-more-expensive-heres-how-it-works-and-what-you-can-do",
"title": "Surveillance Pricing Is Making Life More Expensive. Here’s How It Works and What You Can Do",
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"headTitle": "Surveillance Pricing Is Making Life More Expensive. Here’s How It Works and What You Can Do | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is a collaboration between KQED’s podcast \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">\u003cem>Close All Tabs \u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>and \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>How We Get By\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April, American airline company JetBlue accidentally, \u003cem>possibly \u003c/em>confirmed a superstition long suspected by travelers: that corporations might be looking at your internet data and price-gouging based on your habits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As outlined in a class action lawsuit, a JetBlue customer posted on social media platform X to complain that a flight they were looking at had increased by $200 overnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To which JetBlue’s official corporate X account replied: \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/lawsuit-accuses-jetblue-using-customers-personal-data-raise-air-fares-2026-04-23/\">‘Try clearing your cache and cookies or booking with an incognito window.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The post from JetBlue was a “stunning thing to see on Twitter,” said Lindsay Owens, an economic sociologist who runs \u003ca href=\"https://groundworkcollaborative.org/\">the affordability think tank Groundwork Collaborative\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company’s tweet was deleted, with \u003ca href=\"https://gizmodo.com/jetblue-responds-to-accusations-of-using-surveillance-pricing-after-viral-tweet-2000748602\">JetBlue’s team claiming\u003c/a> that the post was mistaken and that the carrier didn’t use personal information to set flight prices. But for experts like Owens, it felt like a confession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>JetBlue is \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/lawsuit-accuses-jetblue-using-customers-personal-data-raise-air-fares-2026-04-23/\">now facing a lawsuit\u003c/a> for allegedly using what’s called “surveillance pricing.” But it’s not the first time Owens has run into this from an airline. In fact, last year, she said she listened in on \u003ca href=\"https://abcnews.com/GMA/Travel/delta-ai-ticket-pricing-means-air-travel/story?id=124343088\">a Delta call discussing the carrier’s new partnership with Israel-based AI company\u003c/a> Fetcherr, which specializes in personalized pricing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Fetcherr’s white paper, “phase two was called \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-08-04/how-ai-can-raise-airline-ticket-prices\">‘the exploitation phase,’\u003c/a>” Owens said. “That’s when they’ve learned everything they can about Delta’s competitors, about their customers, and when they start going for broke, and they start increasing those prices and getting better revenues for Delta.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12050041\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12050041\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/DeltaSFOGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/DeltaSFOGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/DeltaSFOGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/DeltaSFOGetty-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Delta Airlines plane lands at San Francisco International Airport (SFO) in San Francisco, California, on July 24, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Delta found itself in a firestorm when details of the partnership went public, leading Delta to \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/business/airlines/delta-gets-blowback-for-using-ai-to-set-airfares-c9e1d9ea\">later announce it didn’t plan to go through with the strategy\u003c/a>. The airline wrote \u003ca href=\"https://news.delta.com/delta-responds-misinformation-around-ai-pricing\">in a public letter\u003c/a> to senators inquiring about the program that “there is no fare product Delta has ever used, is testing or plans to use that targets customers with individualized prices based on personal data.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumers are already painfully familiar with the concept of “dynamic pricing,” in which the cost fluctuates based on supply and demand. The most famous example, of course, is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13988577/live-nation-ticketmaster-acted-as-monopoly-overcharged-tickets-jury-trial-verdict\">concert tickets getting more expensive as seats fill up\u003c/a>. It’s even being used to dictate \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086537/paying-for-parking-in-san-francisco-make-sure-youre-using-the-right-apps\">parking meter prices in San Francisco.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But surveillance pricing goes further than that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re doing anything they can to learn about you, including sometimes spying on you,” Owens said. “Companies gather a lot of data about us. Some of it we offer up willingly: our browsing history. We accept the cookies. We agree to let them sell our data.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And all of that can be used to set a price for you specifically,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12085876/12085876\">Close All Tabs podcast spoke to Owens\u003c/a> about the world of surveillance pricing, how it shows up in day-to-day shopping, whether it’s even legal in the first place and what customers like you can ultimately do to avoid it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Where did surveillance pricing even come from?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The way to think about the advent of surveillance pricing is to start with the advent of surveillance \u003cem>advertising\u003c/em>,” Owens said.[aside postID=news_12069507 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230629-WiFi-Illo-AV-KQED.jpg']She said it started with DoubleClick, \u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/jjcolao/2013/07/24/gilt-10gen-doubleclick-meet-the-duo-behind-new-yorks-most-successful-tech-companies/\">a company founded in 1995\u003c/a> that “really pioneered and built the infrastructure for surveillance advertising on the internet.” DoubleClick tracked what you looked at online and, in Owens’ words, “built an advertising system to serve it back to you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Users are probably familiar with this concept. Perhaps you looked at an item but didn’t buy it – but then you see it on your feed again and again, until you perhaps finally buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://googlepress.blogspot.com/2007/04/google-to-acquire-doubleclick_13.html\">Google eventually purchased DoubleClick in the 2000s\u003c/a>, “and Google [was] the advertising king in the early digital era,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As companies get better at knowing what you want, she said that it was a “logical next step” for companies to also figure out how much you might be \u003cem>willing \u003c/em>to pay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Marrying sort of dynamic pricing with surveillance advertising is how we get to the modern form of surveillance pricing that we’re starting to see today,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What are some examples of surveillance pricing?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Back in 2012, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323777204578189391813881534\">a Wall Street Journal analysis\u003c/a> found that Staples determined pricing for customers depending on ZIP code. If the user lived in a ZIP code farther away from a competitor, the price was likely to go up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a few years later, \u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/asians-nearly-twice-as-likely-to-get-higher-price-from-princeton-review\">a 2015 investigation by\u003cem> ProPublica\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, in which the news outlet analyzed prices from The Princeton Review, a test-preparation service for high school students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What they determined is that folks in ZIP codes with a larger percentage of Asian Americans were almost twice as likely to be offered that higher price than others,” Owens said. This surge, dubbed “The Tiger Mom Tax” by \u003cem>ProPublica\u003c/em>, impacted Asian residents in lower-income ZIP codes as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12033653\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12033653\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/IMG_1196-scaled-e1759530132238.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Uber’s headquarters in San Francisco’s Mission Bay neighborhood on Oct. 12, 2022. \u003ccite>(Farida Jhabvala Romero/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Owens called these “some of the early examples of companies starting to toy around with gauging your desperation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2022, research conducted in over six different countries by advocacy groups Mozilla Foundation and Consumers International found that dating app Tinder’s personalized pricing algorithm was \u003ca href=\"https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/new-research-tinders-opaque-unfair-pricing-algorithm-can-charge-users-up-to-five-times-more-for-same-service/\">charging users aged over 30 more money\u003c/a> than younger users for its premium Tinder Plus service. In the previous year, the \u003ca href=\"https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/tinders-24-million-deal-to-end-age-discrimination-suit-undone\">company faced a lawsuit in California\u003c/a> over this pricing structure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rideshare app Uber has also been a common target of surveillance pricing allegations, although \u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/uber-surge-pricing-phone-battery/\">the company has consistently denied this\u003c/a>. In 2016, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/transcripts/478266839\">on NPR’s podcast Hidden Brain\u003c/a>, an economic researcher at Uber said people were likely to pay higher prices if their phone battery was low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12053385\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12053385\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/IMG_0527_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/IMG_0527_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/IMG_0527_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/IMG_0527_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An Uber and Lyft driver drops off a customer in San Francisco’s downtown neighborhood on Aug. 31, 2015. \u003ccite>(Ericka Cruz Guevarra/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We absolutely don’t use that to kind of like, push you a higher surge price,” said the researcher, Keith Chen. “But it’s an interesting kind of psychological fact of human behavior.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, in 2023, \u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/uber-surge-pricing-phone-battery/\">a Belgian newspaper\u003c/a> accused Uber of increasing the price of a trip based on the user’s battery percentage, and in 2024, then-Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio called for more \u003ca href=\"https://www.banking.senate.gov/newsroom/majority/brown-demands-transparency-from-uber-and-lyft-on-surge-pricing\">transparency on pricing from both Uber and Lyft\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And just last year\u003cem>, Washington Post\u003c/em> tech columnist Geoffrey Fowler looked into \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/p/DQICzkmEuaV/\">the data collected by his Starbucks loyalty program\u003c/a> and said that, in actuality, the more coffee he ordered, the fewer discounts he got.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My loyalty was working against me,” Fowler said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What data do companies have on me to determine these prices?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Owens said users give up \u003cem>plenty \u003c/em>of information, like agreeing to terms and conditions that a user didn’t read, or signing up for a loyalty program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They might be connected to your bank account and know when it’s payday,” Owens said. “They might have information about your location. They might have your purchase history, what you buy weekly, what you haven’t bought in a while that you usually buy, and so you’re due for.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069528 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">California Attorney General Rob Bonta says the state is looking into surveillance pricing, a way in which companies use personal data to determine the cost of items. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Owens said websites can also track your \u003cem>mouse\u003c/em> movements online: What you hover over, how long you hover over it, what you click on, what you put in your cart, but don’t buy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They can buy information about you from third parties,” Owens said. “Breadcrumb trails of data you leave when you participate in e-commerce provides a really robust set of data that companies can use to predict how much you’re willing to pay for any given item.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Where does AI fit into all this?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Another emerging way companies can potentially learn more about a user’s habits is through chatbots and AI agents, which are sometimes used by consumers to help with shopping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Walmart’s CEO was alleged to have told investors that \u003ca href=\"https://finance.yahoo.com/sectors/technology/articles/walmart-ceo-reportedly-brags-companys-030000384.html\">the company’s chatbot, named Sparky, was nudging consumers to spend more\u003c/a> in conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Researchers at Princeton University and the University of Washington tried out comparison shopping on advanced large language models (LLMs) to study how those models would respond. One scenario, for example, was an LLM making a recommendation between two equal products, one affordable and non-sponsored and the other expensive \u003cem>and \u003c/em>sponsored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11935110\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11935110\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/12/gettyimages-1242531753-216b37ee591f345f918ae8092986ad1d44cfc9c5-scaled-e1781818411521.jpg\" alt=\"A small boy stands in a shopping cart next to a woman wearing a white shirt looking at vegetables in a grocery store.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers shop in the produce section of a Walmart store in Burbank, California, on Aug.15, 2022. \u003ccite>(Robyn Beck/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The option benefiting the user would recommend the affordable, non-sponsored product, while the option benefiting the corporation would recommend the expensive, sponsored product. But according to \u003ca href=\"https://arxiv.org/html/2604.08525v1\">the paper published in early April\u003c/a>, the researchers found that although “frequency varies widely across different LLMs and scenarios,” all current LLMs exhibit “risky behaviors favoring the company over the user.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Owens said she thinks chatbots are “really the next big frontier in surveillance pricing,” she added that the good news is that people “aren’t overwhelmingly shopping in AI right now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonetheless, “it would be great to get this one fixed before the horse is out of the barn, because the future doesn’t look great,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What can consumers do to limit surveillance pricing?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Owens said she believed in the power of consumer boycotts and taking complaints to social media or a public forum when something seems wrong, like the JetBlue customer did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Customers can also think about how they “comparison shop.” In the past, “it used to be that you would look at the same item at two different stores, see which store offered you the better price,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962972\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962972\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A passenger jet with JETBLUE on the side takes off from a runway.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A JetBlue passenger plane takes off from San Francisco International Airport in San Francisco, California, on June 21, 2023. \u003ccite>(Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But now, “you probably need to comparison shop \u003cem>within \u003c/em>stores,” advised Owens, meaning consumers should compare the price of an item on the app, the website \u003cem>and \u003c/em>the brick-and-mortar store, then go with the lower price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alternatively, customers can ask someone else, like a friend, to log into \u003cem>their \u003c/em>account at the same retailer and see which of you gets the better price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Owens also suggested a browser that offers more privacy protection to limit how much a company can track you. To learn more, KQED has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">a thorough guide on how to get started on digital hygiene and good privacy practices online\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But ultimately, she emphasized that she did not believe it was the consumer’s job to “try to beat the machine.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Shopping against the robot is not a future anybody wants to have,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It should be lawmakers’ job and policymakers’ job to make sure markets are fair and honest.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is surveillance pricing even legal?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The short answer: Yes. But California has been looking into the issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State Attorney General Rob Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/data-privacy-day-attorney-general-bonta-focuses-surveillance-pricing-compliance\">opened an investigation into surveillance pricing\u003c/a> by asking companies in the retail, grocery and hotel sectors to share about how they use personal data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Practices like surveillance pricing may undermine consumer trust, unfairly raise prices, and when conducted without proper disclosure or beyond reasonable expectations, may violate California law,” Bonta said in a January statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063671\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063671\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">California Attorney General Rob Bonta speaks to reporters as Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes, left, and Oregon Attorney General Dan Rayfield, right, listen outside the Supreme Court on Wednesday, Nov. 5, 2025, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Mark Schiefelbein/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There is also a new law introduced \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/06/californias-bill-ban-surveillance-pricing\">in the state legislature\u003c/a> that aims to outright ban the practice, supported by \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/document/20260526-eff-letter-supporting-cal-ab-2564\">privacy groups like the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In general, the United States has lagged behind other countries in \u003ca href=\"https://www.security.org/resources/digital-privacy-legislation-by-state/\">comprehensive data privacy laws\u003c/a>. The Federal Trade Commission, led by Lina Khan during the Biden Administration, released \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/p246202_surveillancepricing6bstudy_researchsummaries_redacted.pdf\">a study on surveillance pricing in January 2025\u003c/a>, but under President Trump, “the federal government is not really leading the charge right now,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One way legal action on surveillance pricing might get somewhere, Owens said: with lawmakers tackling surveillance \u003cem>wages,\u003c/em> in which companies “can use the exact same tools to learn about their workers and figure out the minimum they’re willing to charge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This practice has already been seen to impact workers like \u003ca href=\"https://fortune.com/2026/04/23/nursing-gig-economy-minimum-wage-ai-surveillance/\">nurses\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSX0eQsFfHD/\">rideshare drivers\u003c/a>, and in cases where “algorithmic wage discrimination falls afoul of existing employment discrimination and labor laws,” Owens said there may be opportunities for “enforcement agencies to go ahead and crack down on those practices even without updating the law.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Colorado’s Governor recently vetoed a\u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/colorado-gov-jared-polis-vetoes-surveillance-pricing-bill/\"> bill that would ban corporations from using personal data to set individual prices \u003cem>and \u003c/em>wages\u003c/a>. In New York, the state is \u003ca href=\"https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2025/attorney-general-james-warns-new-yorkers-about-algorithmic-pricing-new-law-takes\">enforcing a disclosure law\u003c/a>, which requires companies to tell you when a price was set by an algorithm using your data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Privacy and consumer advocates are monitoring the bill in California closely, Owens said, given the huge implications for the future of surveillance pricing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It would be a game changer for a state as large as California, with as many tech companies located in California as there are, to pass a bill like this,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story has been updated the to reflect that the organization Lindsay Owens runs is called Groundwork Collaborative, not Groundwork Collection. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is a collaboration between KQED’s podcast \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">\u003cem>Close All Tabs \u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>and \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>How We Get By\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April, American airline company JetBlue accidentally, \u003cem>possibly \u003c/em>confirmed a superstition long suspected by travelers: that corporations might be looking at your internet data and price-gouging based on your habits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As outlined in a class action lawsuit, a JetBlue customer posted on social media platform X to complain that a flight they were looking at had increased by $200 overnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To which JetBlue’s official corporate X account replied: \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/lawsuit-accuses-jetblue-using-customers-personal-data-raise-air-fares-2026-04-23/\">‘Try clearing your cache and cookies or booking with an incognito window.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The post from JetBlue was a “stunning thing to see on Twitter,” said Lindsay Owens, an economic sociologist who runs \u003ca href=\"https://groundworkcollaborative.org/\">the affordability think tank Groundwork Collaborative\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company’s tweet was deleted, with \u003ca href=\"https://gizmodo.com/jetblue-responds-to-accusations-of-using-surveillance-pricing-after-viral-tweet-2000748602\">JetBlue’s team claiming\u003c/a> that the post was mistaken and that the carrier didn’t use personal information to set flight prices. But for experts like Owens, it felt like a confession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>JetBlue is \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/lawsuit-accuses-jetblue-using-customers-personal-data-raise-air-fares-2026-04-23/\">now facing a lawsuit\u003c/a> for allegedly using what’s called “surveillance pricing.” But it’s not the first time Owens has run into this from an airline. In fact, last year, she said she listened in on \u003ca href=\"https://abcnews.com/GMA/Travel/delta-ai-ticket-pricing-means-air-travel/story?id=124343088\">a Delta call discussing the carrier’s new partnership with Israel-based AI company\u003c/a> Fetcherr, which specializes in personalized pricing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Fetcherr’s white paper, “phase two was called \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-08-04/how-ai-can-raise-airline-ticket-prices\">‘the exploitation phase,’\u003c/a>” Owens said. “That’s when they’ve learned everything they can about Delta’s competitors, about their customers, and when they start going for broke, and they start increasing those prices and getting better revenues for Delta.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12050041\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12050041\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/DeltaSFOGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/DeltaSFOGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/DeltaSFOGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/DeltaSFOGetty-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Delta Airlines plane lands at San Francisco International Airport (SFO) in San Francisco, California, on July 24, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Delta found itself in a firestorm when details of the partnership went public, leading Delta to \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/business/airlines/delta-gets-blowback-for-using-ai-to-set-airfares-c9e1d9ea\">later announce it didn’t plan to go through with the strategy\u003c/a>. The airline wrote \u003ca href=\"https://news.delta.com/delta-responds-misinformation-around-ai-pricing\">in a public letter\u003c/a> to senators inquiring about the program that “there is no fare product Delta has ever used, is testing or plans to use that targets customers with individualized prices based on personal data.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumers are already painfully familiar with the concept of “dynamic pricing,” in which the cost fluctuates based on supply and demand. The most famous example, of course, is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13988577/live-nation-ticketmaster-acted-as-monopoly-overcharged-tickets-jury-trial-verdict\">concert tickets getting more expensive as seats fill up\u003c/a>. It’s even being used to dictate \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12086537/paying-for-parking-in-san-francisco-make-sure-youre-using-the-right-apps\">parking meter prices in San Francisco.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But surveillance pricing goes further than that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re doing anything they can to learn about you, including sometimes spying on you,” Owens said. “Companies gather a lot of data about us. Some of it we offer up willingly: our browsing history. We accept the cookies. We agree to let them sell our data.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And all of that can be used to set a price for you specifically,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12085876/12085876\">Close All Tabs podcast spoke to Owens\u003c/a> about the world of surveillance pricing, how it shows up in day-to-day shopping, whether it’s even legal in the first place and what customers like you can ultimately do to avoid it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Where did surveillance pricing even come from?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The way to think about the advent of surveillance pricing is to start with the advent of surveillance \u003cem>advertising\u003c/em>,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>She said it started with DoubleClick, \u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/jjcolao/2013/07/24/gilt-10gen-doubleclick-meet-the-duo-behind-new-yorks-most-successful-tech-companies/\">a company founded in 1995\u003c/a> that “really pioneered and built the infrastructure for surveillance advertising on the internet.” DoubleClick tracked what you looked at online and, in Owens’ words, “built an advertising system to serve it back to you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Users are probably familiar with this concept. Perhaps you looked at an item but didn’t buy it – but then you see it on your feed again and again, until you perhaps finally buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://googlepress.blogspot.com/2007/04/google-to-acquire-doubleclick_13.html\">Google eventually purchased DoubleClick in the 2000s\u003c/a>, “and Google [was] the advertising king in the early digital era,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As companies get better at knowing what you want, she said that it was a “logical next step” for companies to also figure out how much you might be \u003cem>willing \u003c/em>to pay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Marrying sort of dynamic pricing with surveillance advertising is how we get to the modern form of surveillance pricing that we’re starting to see today,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What are some examples of surveillance pricing?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Back in 2012, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323777204578189391813881534\">a Wall Street Journal analysis\u003c/a> found that Staples determined pricing for customers depending on ZIP code. If the user lived in a ZIP code farther away from a competitor, the price was likely to go up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a few years later, \u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/asians-nearly-twice-as-likely-to-get-higher-price-from-princeton-review\">a 2015 investigation by\u003cem> ProPublica\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, in which the news outlet analyzed prices from The Princeton Review, a test-preparation service for high school students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What they determined is that folks in ZIP codes with a larger percentage of Asian Americans were almost twice as likely to be offered that higher price than others,” Owens said. This surge, dubbed “The Tiger Mom Tax” by \u003cem>ProPublica\u003c/em>, impacted Asian residents in lower-income ZIP codes as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12033653\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12033653\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/IMG_1196-scaled-e1759530132238.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Uber’s headquarters in San Francisco’s Mission Bay neighborhood on Oct. 12, 2022. \u003ccite>(Farida Jhabvala Romero/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Owens called these “some of the early examples of companies starting to toy around with gauging your desperation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2022, research conducted in over six different countries by advocacy groups Mozilla Foundation and Consumers International found that dating app Tinder’s personalized pricing algorithm was \u003ca href=\"https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/new-research-tinders-opaque-unfair-pricing-algorithm-can-charge-users-up-to-five-times-more-for-same-service/\">charging users aged over 30 more money\u003c/a> than younger users for its premium Tinder Plus service. In the previous year, the \u003ca href=\"https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/tinders-24-million-deal-to-end-age-discrimination-suit-undone\">company faced a lawsuit in California\u003c/a> over this pricing structure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rideshare app Uber has also been a common target of surveillance pricing allegations, although \u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/uber-surge-pricing-phone-battery/\">the company has consistently denied this\u003c/a>. In 2016, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/transcripts/478266839\">on NPR’s podcast Hidden Brain\u003c/a>, an economic researcher at Uber said people were likely to pay higher prices if their phone battery was low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12053385\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12053385\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/IMG_0527_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/IMG_0527_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/IMG_0527_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/IMG_0527_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An Uber and Lyft driver drops off a customer in San Francisco’s downtown neighborhood on Aug. 31, 2015. \u003ccite>(Ericka Cruz Guevarra/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We absolutely don’t use that to kind of like, push you a higher surge price,” said the researcher, Keith Chen. “But it’s an interesting kind of psychological fact of human behavior.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, in 2023, \u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/uber-surge-pricing-phone-battery/\">a Belgian newspaper\u003c/a> accused Uber of increasing the price of a trip based on the user’s battery percentage, and in 2024, then-Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio called for more \u003ca href=\"https://www.banking.senate.gov/newsroom/majority/brown-demands-transparency-from-uber-and-lyft-on-surge-pricing\">transparency on pricing from both Uber and Lyft\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And just last year\u003cem>, Washington Post\u003c/em> tech columnist Geoffrey Fowler looked into \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/p/DQICzkmEuaV/\">the data collected by his Starbucks loyalty program\u003c/a> and said that, in actuality, the more coffee he ordered, the fewer discounts he got.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My loyalty was working against me,” Fowler said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What data do companies have on me to determine these prices?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Owens said users give up \u003cem>plenty \u003c/em>of information, like agreeing to terms and conditions that a user didn’t read, or signing up for a loyalty program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They might be connected to your bank account and know when it’s payday,” Owens said. “They might have information about your location. They might have your purchase history, what you buy weekly, what you haven’t bought in a while that you usually buy, and so you’re due for.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069528 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">California Attorney General Rob Bonta says the state is looking into surveillance pricing, a way in which companies use personal data to determine the cost of items. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Owens said websites can also track your \u003cem>mouse\u003c/em> movements online: What you hover over, how long you hover over it, what you click on, what you put in your cart, but don’t buy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They can buy information about you from third parties,” Owens said. “Breadcrumb trails of data you leave when you participate in e-commerce provides a really robust set of data that companies can use to predict how much you’re willing to pay for any given item.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Where does AI fit into all this?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Another emerging way companies can potentially learn more about a user’s habits is through chatbots and AI agents, which are sometimes used by consumers to help with shopping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Walmart’s CEO was alleged to have told investors that \u003ca href=\"https://finance.yahoo.com/sectors/technology/articles/walmart-ceo-reportedly-brags-companys-030000384.html\">the company’s chatbot, named Sparky, was nudging consumers to spend more\u003c/a> in conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Researchers at Princeton University and the University of Washington tried out comparison shopping on advanced large language models (LLMs) to study how those models would respond. One scenario, for example, was an LLM making a recommendation between two equal products, one affordable and non-sponsored and the other expensive \u003cem>and \u003c/em>sponsored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11935110\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11935110\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/12/gettyimages-1242531753-216b37ee591f345f918ae8092986ad1d44cfc9c5-scaled-e1781818411521.jpg\" alt=\"A small boy stands in a shopping cart next to a woman wearing a white shirt looking at vegetables in a grocery store.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers shop in the produce section of a Walmart store in Burbank, California, on Aug.15, 2022. \u003ccite>(Robyn Beck/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The option benefiting the user would recommend the affordable, non-sponsored product, while the option benefiting the corporation would recommend the expensive, sponsored product. But according to \u003ca href=\"https://arxiv.org/html/2604.08525v1\">the paper published in early April\u003c/a>, the researchers found that although “frequency varies widely across different LLMs and scenarios,” all current LLMs exhibit “risky behaviors favoring the company over the user.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Owens said she thinks chatbots are “really the next big frontier in surveillance pricing,” she added that the good news is that people “aren’t overwhelmingly shopping in AI right now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonetheless, “it would be great to get this one fixed before the horse is out of the barn, because the future doesn’t look great,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What can consumers do to limit surveillance pricing?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Owens said she believed in the power of consumer boycotts and taking complaints to social media or a public forum when something seems wrong, like the JetBlue customer did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Customers can also think about how they “comparison shop.” In the past, “it used to be that you would look at the same item at two different stores, see which store offered you the better price,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962972\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962972\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A passenger jet with JETBLUE on the side takes off from a runway.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1258924953-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A JetBlue passenger plane takes off from San Francisco International Airport in San Francisco, California, on June 21, 2023. \u003ccite>(Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But now, “you probably need to comparison shop \u003cem>within \u003c/em>stores,” advised Owens, meaning consumers should compare the price of an item on the app, the website \u003cem>and \u003c/em>the brick-and-mortar store, then go with the lower price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alternatively, customers can ask someone else, like a friend, to log into \u003cem>their \u003c/em>account at the same retailer and see which of you gets the better price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Owens also suggested a browser that offers more privacy protection to limit how much a company can track you. To learn more, KQED has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">a thorough guide on how to get started on digital hygiene and good privacy practices online\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But ultimately, she emphasized that she did not believe it was the consumer’s job to “try to beat the machine.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Shopping against the robot is not a future anybody wants to have,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It should be lawmakers’ job and policymakers’ job to make sure markets are fair and honest.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is surveillance pricing even legal?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The short answer: Yes. But California has been looking into the issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State Attorney General Rob Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/data-privacy-day-attorney-general-bonta-focuses-surveillance-pricing-compliance\">opened an investigation into surveillance pricing\u003c/a> by asking companies in the retail, grocery and hotel sectors to share about how they use personal data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Practices like surveillance pricing may undermine consumer trust, unfairly raise prices, and when conducted without proper disclosure or beyond reasonable expectations, may violate California law,” Bonta said in a January statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063671\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063671\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">California Attorney General Rob Bonta speaks to reporters as Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes, left, and Oregon Attorney General Dan Rayfield, right, listen outside the Supreme Court on Wednesday, Nov. 5, 2025, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Mark Schiefelbein/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There is also a new law introduced \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/06/californias-bill-ban-surveillance-pricing\">in the state legislature\u003c/a> that aims to outright ban the practice, supported by \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/document/20260526-eff-letter-supporting-cal-ab-2564\">privacy groups like the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In general, the United States has lagged behind other countries in \u003ca href=\"https://www.security.org/resources/digital-privacy-legislation-by-state/\">comprehensive data privacy laws\u003c/a>. The Federal Trade Commission, led by Lina Khan during the Biden Administration, released \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/p246202_surveillancepricing6bstudy_researchsummaries_redacted.pdf\">a study on surveillance pricing in January 2025\u003c/a>, but under President Trump, “the federal government is not really leading the charge right now,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One way legal action on surveillance pricing might get somewhere, Owens said: with lawmakers tackling surveillance \u003cem>wages,\u003c/em> in which companies “can use the exact same tools to learn about their workers and figure out the minimum they’re willing to charge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This practice has already been seen to impact workers like \u003ca href=\"https://fortune.com/2026/04/23/nursing-gig-economy-minimum-wage-ai-surveillance/\">nurses\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSX0eQsFfHD/\">rideshare drivers\u003c/a>, and in cases where “algorithmic wage discrimination falls afoul of existing employment discrimination and labor laws,” Owens said there may be opportunities for “enforcement agencies to go ahead and crack down on those practices even without updating the law.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Colorado’s Governor recently vetoed a\u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/colorado-gov-jared-polis-vetoes-surveillance-pricing-bill/\"> bill that would ban corporations from using personal data to set individual prices \u003cem>and \u003c/em>wages\u003c/a>. In New York, the state is \u003ca href=\"https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2025/attorney-general-james-warns-new-yorkers-about-algorithmic-pricing-new-law-takes\">enforcing a disclosure law\u003c/a>, which requires companies to tell you when a price was set by an algorithm using your data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Privacy and consumer advocates are monitoring the bill in California closely, Owens said, given the huge implications for the future of surveillance pricing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It would be a game changer for a state as large as California, with as many tech companies located in California as there are, to pass a bill like this,” Owens said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story has been updated the to reflect that the organization Lindsay Owens runs is called Groundwork Collaborative, not Groundwork Collection. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "newsom-promised-to-help-californians-build-new-careers-now-the-money-is-running-out",
"title": "Newsom Promised to Help Californians Build New Careers. Now, the Money Is Running Out",
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"headTitle": "Newsom Promised to Help Californians Build New Careers. Now, the Money Is Running Out | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Standing in a West Sacramento \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l0Rs93LKuI\">high school cafeteria\u003c/a> in 2023, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> promised fundamental reforms to the state’s job training programs. A few months later, he was in front of \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpMC6yHOV_4\">a fire truck in Modesto\u003c/a>, and later, in\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG5InB3qU9Q&t=3628s\"> a welding classroom\u003c/a> in Redding, making the same promise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a “\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/2025/04/career-education/\">point of pride\u003c/a>,” Newsom said last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a handful of those reforms are underway. A new inter-agency council, designed to increase collaboration among workforce providers, is meeting next week. The state is also developing a new kind of \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/06/17/californias-career-passport-to-connect-qualified-workers-to-employment-with-or-without-a-four-year-degree/\">digital resume\u003c/a> that would help students and workers consolidate information about their work experience and education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as the state faces yet another budget deficit, a flagship workforce program could be forced to scale back. One of the state’s leading agencies for coordinating workforce training, the California Workforce Development Board, could lose 20% of its staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the governor’s budget proposal for 2026-27 fiscal year, several workforce programs, including the governor’s \u003ca href=\"https://cwdb.ca.gov/cwdb-home/our-programs/high-road-programs/high-road-training-partnerships/\">“high road training partnerships\u003c/a>,” would receive little or no new funding, meaning that they could shut down by the time the next governor assumes office or soon thereafter. The Legislature has already passed a budget that largely accepts Newsom’s proposals, and the governor has until the end of the month to approve it. Some job training organizations criticized the governor’s proposal to withhold new funding this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At a time when affordability is such a massive concern, it feels like we’re focusing on what things cost and not enough on what people can earn,” said Julia Hatton, the president of the Rising Sun Center for Opportunity, told CalMatters. Her organization trains workers for jobs in construction and climate-related careers and has received nearly $4 million in state workforce grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087658\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087658\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GavinJenniferNewsomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1337\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GavinJenniferNewsomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GavinJenniferNewsomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GavinJenniferNewsomGetty-1536x1027.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks as his wife Jennifer Siebel Newsom (left) looks on during an election night gathering at the California Democrats headquarters on Nov. 4, 2025, in Sacramento, California. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>However, in a legislative hearing in April, Allison Hewitt, a budget analyst with California’s Department of Finance said the state is still committed to workforce development and that the board’s budget isn’t being cut, just that it isn’t receiving new funding. The workforce development board received a \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/hearings/279461#t=2476&f=c90f5001889cb947a92f8d013b87727d\">“surge”\u003c/a> of grants over the past few years, and those dollars have been spent so less funding is available this year, she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That did not sit well with at least one legislator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I mean, you can say that all you want,” said \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/maria-elena-durazo-165445\">Sen. María Elena Durazo\u003c/a>, a Los Angeles Democrat, in response. “But if we’re not proposing funding for that … then you’re basically saying this is gonna be the new policy. The bottom line is without funding, it’s not a reality.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an emailed statement to CalMatters, Marissa Saldivar, a spokesperson for the governor, said Newsom’s workforce plan focuses on “structural changes to benefit students, which does not always require funding.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>H.D. Palmer, a spokesperson for California’s Department of Finance, responded in the same email, saying that the current budget proposes over $250 million in new workforce funds, including in healthcare and construction. By comparison, the state put over $2.2 billion into new workforce grants in the 2022-23 budget year.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Have workforce programs succeeded?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For decades, states and the federal government have pumped money into job training programs, especially for low-income workers without college degrees, but the results \u003ca href=\"https://www.dol.gov/resource-library/providing-public-workforce-services-job-seekers-30-month-impact-findings-wia-adult\">are often poor\u003c/a>. Graduates end up earning minimum-wage or landing in jobs \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/2024/08/for-profit-schools-california-jobs/\">with low retention\u003c/a>, where many workers quit within the first year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To improve outcomes, California created the high road training partnerships to target job training programs that yield long-lasting, living-wage employment where the employer, not just the government, has a stake in the worker’s professional growth. Starting around 2014, the state put a small amount of money into these programs, said Stewart Knox, the secretary of California’s Labor and Workforce Development Agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12055465\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12055465\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250509-BeniciaRefinery-31-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250509-BeniciaRefinery-31-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250509-BeniciaRefinery-31-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250509-BeniciaRefinery-31-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Valero Benicia Refinery in Benicia, on May 8, 2025, which processes up to 170,000 barrels of oil a day, making gasoline, diesel, and other fuels for California. Valero plans to shut down the Benicia refinery by April 2026, citing high costs and strict environmental rules. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 2021 and 2022, the state made “massive investments in the workforce,” he said, pumping hundreds of millions into high-road programs all across the state, including in construction, healthcare, technology and in public sector jobs. The state sent money to current and former oil workers to help them retrain for careers \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/2025/10/refinery-workers-california/\">when refineries close\u003c/a>. It also sent money to youth apprenticeship programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Results have been\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/higher-education/2024/02/workforce-training/\"> mixed\u003c/a>. In the high-road program, some grants helped train hundreds or thousands of workers for union jobs while other grants created few concrete benefits for workers. One grant was supposed to train workers at the electric vehicle company Proterra, but the company closed before workers could begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This year, Assemblymember \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/rick-chavez-zbur-165429\">Rick Chavez Zbur\u003c/a>, a Los Angeles Democrat, is proposing \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2634\">a bill\u003c/a> to further restrict how the high-road money is used.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Out of the roughly 1,700 oil workers who could benefit from the state’s retraining grants, only about 500 participated as of May, according to a bill analysis. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2157\">That bill\u003c/a>, authored by San Rafael Assemblymember \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/damon-connolly-165425\">Damon Connolly,\u003c/a> a Democrat, would give grantees more time to spend the money.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A ‘master plan’ for career education\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 2023, Newsom’s workforce plans culminated with \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/8.31.23-Career-Education-Executive-Order.pdf\">an executive order\u003c/a> calling for the creation of a master plan for career education that would create a “new foundation” for the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/2025-CA-Master-Plan-for-Career-Education.pdf\">The plan\u003c/a>, released in 2025, called for better coordination among the state’s workforce providers, who \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/2024/09/trade-schools-job-training-california/\">often compete for the same students.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The master plan also called for more high-road job training programs and highlighted ongoing work supporting youth apprentices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080557\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080557\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Caltrans worker adjusts construction cones as traffic comes to a slow on I-80 eastbound in San Francisco on Saturday, April 18, 2026. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We’re definitely not done. We’re kind of mid-stage,” said Knox. “What you’re seeing is a little less money, yes, in terms of programs, but that’s because we did such massive investments from 2021 on into the system (and) those outcomes now are what we’re focused on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Knox pointed to outcomes from the master plan, including the growth of \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2025/05/middle-school-california/\">dual enrollment,\u003c/a> which allows high school students to take college classes. The state is also helping thousands more students get \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/higher-education/2026/02/college-credit-california/\">college credit for their prior work experience\u003c/a>, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Palmer, with the state’s Department of Finance, said in an email that the current proposal from the Legislature includes more funding both for dual enrollment and to help college students get credit for their work experience.[aside postID=news_12087559 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CaliforniaSealCM.jpg']Those funding allocations, however, come from a different pot of money, known as Proposition 98, which is largely restricted to education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Shirley Ware Education Center, a national job training nonprofit founded in Oakland, was among the earliest and largest recipients of the high-road training grants, which it used to help over 5,500 workers find better jobs, mostly in the healthcare industry. All told, the organization received more than $40 million in state workforce dollars starting in 2017.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the state was flush with cash, they put a lot of money into these programs,” said Rebecca Hanson, the executive director. Now, she said the state budget deficit makes it “hard to argue” for increased funding, especially when so many other core services are\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2026/06/california-budget-legislature-deal/\"> facing cuts\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hanson’s high-road workforce grant ends in 2027, but even then, she said she isn’t too worried, since her organization has other funding and is used to these fluctuations in state support. “My hope is that by the time we’re talking about 2028, we’ll be able to find other money.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/higher-education/2026/06/workforce-funding/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Standing in a West Sacramento \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l0Rs93LKuI\">high school cafeteria\u003c/a> in 2023, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> promised fundamental reforms to the state’s job training programs. A few months later, he was in front of \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpMC6yHOV_4\">a fire truck in Modesto\u003c/a>, and later, in\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG5InB3qU9Q&t=3628s\"> a welding classroom\u003c/a> in Redding, making the same promise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a “\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/2025/04/career-education/\">point of pride\u003c/a>,” Newsom said last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a handful of those reforms are underway. A new inter-agency council, designed to increase collaboration among workforce providers, is meeting next week. The state is also developing a new kind of \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/06/17/californias-career-passport-to-connect-qualified-workers-to-employment-with-or-without-a-four-year-degree/\">digital resume\u003c/a> that would help students and workers consolidate information about their work experience and education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as the state faces yet another budget deficit, a flagship workforce program could be forced to scale back. One of the state’s leading agencies for coordinating workforce training, the California Workforce Development Board, could lose 20% of its staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the governor’s budget proposal for 2026-27 fiscal year, several workforce programs, including the governor’s \u003ca href=\"https://cwdb.ca.gov/cwdb-home/our-programs/high-road-programs/high-road-training-partnerships/\">“high road training partnerships\u003c/a>,” would receive little or no new funding, meaning that they could shut down by the time the next governor assumes office or soon thereafter. The Legislature has already passed a budget that largely accepts Newsom’s proposals, and the governor has until the end of the month to approve it. Some job training organizations criticized the governor’s proposal to withhold new funding this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At a time when affordability is such a massive concern, it feels like we’re focusing on what things cost and not enough on what people can earn,” said Julia Hatton, the president of the Rising Sun Center for Opportunity, told CalMatters. Her organization trains workers for jobs in construction and climate-related careers and has received nearly $4 million in state workforce grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087658\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087658\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GavinJenniferNewsomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1337\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GavinJenniferNewsomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GavinJenniferNewsomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GavinJenniferNewsomGetty-1536x1027.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks as his wife Jennifer Siebel Newsom (left) looks on during an election night gathering at the California Democrats headquarters on Nov. 4, 2025, in Sacramento, California. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>However, in a legislative hearing in April, Allison Hewitt, a budget analyst with California’s Department of Finance said the state is still committed to workforce development and that the board’s budget isn’t being cut, just that it isn’t receiving new funding. The workforce development board received a \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/hearings/279461#t=2476&f=c90f5001889cb947a92f8d013b87727d\">“surge”\u003c/a> of grants over the past few years, and those dollars have been spent so less funding is available this year, she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That did not sit well with at least one legislator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I mean, you can say that all you want,” said \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/maria-elena-durazo-165445\">Sen. María Elena Durazo\u003c/a>, a Los Angeles Democrat, in response. “But if we’re not proposing funding for that … then you’re basically saying this is gonna be the new policy. The bottom line is without funding, it’s not a reality.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an emailed statement to CalMatters, Marissa Saldivar, a spokesperson for the governor, said Newsom’s workforce plan focuses on “structural changes to benefit students, which does not always require funding.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>H.D. Palmer, a spokesperson for California’s Department of Finance, responded in the same email, saying that the current budget proposes over $250 million in new workforce funds, including in healthcare and construction. By comparison, the state put over $2.2 billion into new workforce grants in the 2022-23 budget year.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Have workforce programs succeeded?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For decades, states and the federal government have pumped money into job training programs, especially for low-income workers without college degrees, but the results \u003ca href=\"https://www.dol.gov/resource-library/providing-public-workforce-services-job-seekers-30-month-impact-findings-wia-adult\">are often poor\u003c/a>. Graduates end up earning minimum-wage or landing in jobs \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/2024/08/for-profit-schools-california-jobs/\">with low retention\u003c/a>, where many workers quit within the first year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To improve outcomes, California created the high road training partnerships to target job training programs that yield long-lasting, living-wage employment where the employer, not just the government, has a stake in the worker’s professional growth. Starting around 2014, the state put a small amount of money into these programs, said Stewart Knox, the secretary of California’s Labor and Workforce Development Agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12055465\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12055465\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250509-BeniciaRefinery-31-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250509-BeniciaRefinery-31-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250509-BeniciaRefinery-31-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250509-BeniciaRefinery-31-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Valero Benicia Refinery in Benicia, on May 8, 2025, which processes up to 170,000 barrels of oil a day, making gasoline, diesel, and other fuels for California. Valero plans to shut down the Benicia refinery by April 2026, citing high costs and strict environmental rules. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 2021 and 2022, the state made “massive investments in the workforce,” he said, pumping hundreds of millions into high-road programs all across the state, including in construction, healthcare, technology and in public sector jobs. The state sent money to current and former oil workers to help them retrain for careers \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/2025/10/refinery-workers-california/\">when refineries close\u003c/a>. It also sent money to youth apprenticeship programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Results have been\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/higher-education/2024/02/workforce-training/\"> mixed\u003c/a>. In the high-road program, some grants helped train hundreds or thousands of workers for union jobs while other grants created few concrete benefits for workers. One grant was supposed to train workers at the electric vehicle company Proterra, but the company closed before workers could begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This year, Assemblymember \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/rick-chavez-zbur-165429\">Rick Chavez Zbur\u003c/a>, a Los Angeles Democrat, is proposing \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2634\">a bill\u003c/a> to further restrict how the high-road money is used.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Out of the roughly 1,700 oil workers who could benefit from the state’s retraining grants, only about 500 participated as of May, according to a bill analysis. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2157\">That bill\u003c/a>, authored by San Rafael Assemblymember \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/damon-connolly-165425\">Damon Connolly,\u003c/a> a Democrat, would give grantees more time to spend the money.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A ‘master plan’ for career education\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 2023, Newsom’s workforce plans culminated with \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/8.31.23-Career-Education-Executive-Order.pdf\">an executive order\u003c/a> calling for the creation of a master plan for career education that would create a “new foundation” for the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/2025-CA-Master-Plan-for-Career-Education.pdf\">The plan\u003c/a>, released in 2025, called for better coordination among the state’s workforce providers, who \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/2024/09/trade-schools-job-training-california/\">often compete for the same students.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The master plan also called for more high-road job training programs and highlighted ongoing work supporting youth apprentices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080557\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080557\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/041826-I80Closure-JY-11-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Caltrans worker adjusts construction cones as traffic comes to a slow on I-80 eastbound in San Francisco on Saturday, April 18, 2026. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We’re definitely not done. We’re kind of mid-stage,” said Knox. “What you’re seeing is a little less money, yes, in terms of programs, but that’s because we did such massive investments from 2021 on into the system (and) those outcomes now are what we’re focused on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Knox pointed to outcomes from the master plan, including the growth of \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2025/05/middle-school-california/\">dual enrollment,\u003c/a> which allows high school students to take college classes. The state is also helping thousands more students get \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/higher-education/2026/02/college-credit-california/\">college credit for their prior work experience\u003c/a>, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Palmer, with the state’s Department of Finance, said in an email that the current proposal from the Legislature includes more funding both for dual enrollment and to help college students get credit for their work experience.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Those funding allocations, however, come from a different pot of money, known as Proposition 98, which is largely restricted to education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Shirley Ware Education Center, a national job training nonprofit founded in Oakland, was among the earliest and largest recipients of the high-road training grants, which it used to help over 5,500 workers find better jobs, mostly in the healthcare industry. All told, the organization received more than $40 million in state workforce dollars starting in 2017.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the state was flush with cash, they put a lot of money into these programs,” said Rebecca Hanson, the executive director. Now, she said the state budget deficit makes it “hard to argue” for increased funding, especially when so many other core services are\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2026/06/california-budget-legislature-deal/\"> facing cuts\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hanson’s high-road workforce grant ends in 2027, but even then, she said she isn’t too worried, since her organization has other funding and is used to these fluctuations in state support. “My hope is that by the time we’re talking about 2028, we’ll be able to find other money.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/higher-education/2026/06/workforce-funding/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "san-francisco-has-been-trying-to-leave-pge-for-100-years-will-this-time-be-different",
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"content": "\u003cp>Joe Dabit’s cozy, mural-covered restaurant, Pizza Joint, sits next to George Washington High School in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Outer Richmond neighborhood. Every afternoon, students line up to buy lunch at the counter and take home half-price slices at the end of the day. He credits them with keeping the business afloat — a task that’s gotten harder thanks, in part, to\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082876/pge-bills-are-going-up-heres-why\"> rising electricity costs. \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Energy prices are crazy. Two or three years ago, I used to pay $1,000 to $1,100, $1,200 max,” Dabit, 62, said. “My last bill was $2,800.” His utility bills now cost almost as much as rent for his 900-square-foot restaurant\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dabit’s energy problems reached a new level in December when a PG&E \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083011/humidity-at-pge-substation-likely-cause-of-massive-december-san-francisco-blackout\">substation\u003c/a> fire caused a three-day power outage for the neighborhood. In addition to losing business, Dabit lost $10,000 to $15,000 worth of ingredients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The utility company initially offered him just $2,500, he said — which barely covered his typical electricity bill, let alone all the product and business that he lost. After more than three months of back and forth, he said he finally got PG&E to agree to something he found reasonable, but only after threatening to hire a lawyer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Between December’s series of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12073229/san-francisco-supervisors-probe-pge-after-widespread-winter-power-outages\">power\u003c/a> outages and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/nhttps:/www.kqed.org/news/12033386/pge-electricity-rates-have-jumped-nearly-70-since-2020ews/12033386/pge-electricity-rates-have-jumped-nearly-70-since-2020\">skyrocketing\u003c/a> electricity bills, Dabit and other San Franciscans are growing increasingly frustrated with the utility company. In February, a group of residents and small businesses \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12071937/san-francisco-small-businesses-to-sue-pge-over-losses-from-december-power-outages\">filed a class-action lawsuit\u003c/a> against PG&E, alleging the utility failed to remediate major financial losses after major \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101912529/san-francisco-blackouts-raise-concerns-about-pge-and-robotaxis\">power outages in December\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their discontent recently led the Board of Supervisors to reaffirm their commitment to cutting ties with PG&E, a process that’s been quietly underway for about five years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087359\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087359\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-01-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-01-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-01-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-01-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers sit at Pizza Joint in San Francisco’s Richmond District on June 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While PG&E has said that a takeover would \u003ca href=\"https://www.pge.com/en/newsroom/currents/future-of-energy/city-and-county-of-san-francisco-proposal-to-take-over-pg-e-elec.html\">increase\u003c/a> San Francisco electricity rates for decades, some advocates believe it might be the only way out. With the ever-increasing cost of living, would a takeover make life easier for Dabit?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though many residents may not be aware of it, the city has been in a protracted battle over whether or not to leave PG&E since the start of the 20th century, said Josh Lappen, a researcher at the University of Notre Dame who studies utilities and energy. The last significant attempt took place in the early 2000s and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/In-S-F-voters-defeat-Prop-H-for-city-utility-3186957.php\">failed\u003c/a> as a ballot measure over concerns about government spending, questions about San Francisco’s ability to run a utility and significant campaigning from PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While similar ballot measures have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.spur.org/publications/voter-guide/2008-11-01/proposition-h-municipalizing-electric-service\">voted\u003c/a> down for decades, the city may no longer have to go through voter approval. Since residents passed \u003ca href=\"https://ballotpedia.org/San_Francisco,_California,_Proposition_A,_Revenue_Bonds_for_Power_Facilities_Excluding_Fossil_Fuels_and_Nuclear_Energy_Charter_Amendment_(June_2018)\">Proposition A\u003c/a> in 2018, the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission can now issue revenue bonds to buy clean power facilities with approval by two-thirds of the Board of Supervisors. This means that, if San Francisco and PG&E agree on a price, the city could potentially buy PG&E’s wire, poles and other physical infrastructure without putting anything on the ballot, according to John Coté, a spokesperson for San Francisco Power and Water.[aside postID=news_12074281 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-SIGNATUREKICKOFF00063_TV-KQED.jpg']The city’s latest attempt to buy the utility officially \u003ca href=\"https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Efile/G000/M394/K796/394796977.PDF\">started\u003c/a> in 2019 when it offered $2.5 billion for PG&E’s infrastructure. The company rejected the offer outright, saying the offer was too low, but in 2021, the city asked the California Public Utilities Commission to set a fair price. After years of delays, the CPUC directed San Francisco to submit its valuation and for PG&E to file its response by Oct. 20, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April, San Francisco submitted a valuation of $3.4 billion to acquire the land, infrastructure and equipment needed for a takeover. PG&E, which has repeatedly said its infrastructure is not for sale, said in a statement around the same time that San Francisco “greatly undervalues” the utility’s property, and doesn’t account for separation costs or costs of state-mandated programs that would be offloaded onto remaining customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If San Francisco ever gets to the end of this process, Jim Lazar, an economist with a five-decade career in utility regulation and an advocate for public power, estimated that rates could go down by 15%-20% in the 10 years following purchase. Lazar said that prices would go down primarily because investor-owned utilities come with some baked-in costs that make them more expensive to run than consumer-owned utilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, being a public, nonprofit company allows consumer-owned utilities to both borrow money for construction projects at a cheaper rate and to pay less in taxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer-owned utilities also tend to pay their executives less than investor-owned utilities, and that’s certainly the case for PG&E. The CEO of the Sacramento Municipal Utility District, a consumer-owned utility, is set to earn \u003ca href=\"https://www.smud.org/-/media/Documents/Corporate/Careers-at-SMUD/Salary-Schedule.ashx\">$1.4 million\u003c/a> in 2026. While that’s a lot, PG&E’s CEO made\u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1004980/000100498026000020/pcg-20260409.htm#i76f77ef7e29d43c3add9edcb2e098a62_55\"> $19.8 million\u003c/a> in 2025 alone. The skilled workers that maintain the grid, however, earn about the same regardless of ownership — about \u003ca href=\"https://www.smud.org/-/media/Documents/Corporate/Careers-at-SMUD/Salary-Schedule.ashx\">$79\u003c/a> per hour at SMUD and about \u003ca href=\"https://jobs.pge.com/lineworker\">$77\u003c/a> at PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087362\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087362\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-04-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-04-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-04-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-04-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A PG&E substation on Mission and 8th Streets in San Francisco on June 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As an investor-owned utility, PG&E also pays dividends to shareholders. While PG&E said that those dividends make up less than\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999400/bay-area-electricity-bills-are-some-of-the-highest-where-does-your-money-go\"> 1%\u003c/a> of a typical residential bill, the incentive to generate dividends creates one more expense for ratepayers — a never-ending need to increase profits by building more infrastructure. In 2024, they built enough to pay their shareholders \u003ca href=\"https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001004980/b7a70191-b3cb-41e7-8f6e-4d5d22abd201.pdf\">$1.45\u003c/a> billion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While ratepayers may see gains in the long run, Michael Wara, a senior research scholar at Stanford University’s Woods Institute for the Environment, said \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">there would be inherent challenges to exiting a grid that is part of “a \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">regional\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> system.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, Wara said, PG&E ratepayers outside of San Francisco, including places like Oakland and Marin, would take on the costs that San Francisco leaves behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s why: San Francisco ratepayers subsidize grid upgrades across Northern California, particularly in fire-prone areas, and \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> energy programs for low-income residents, according to multiple experts KQED spoke with\u003c/span>. And PG&E \u003ca href=\"https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/outages-and-safety/outage-preparedness-and-support/PGE-2023-RNR-R0.pdf\">increased\u003c/a> its spending on wildfire prevention from $3.84 billion in 2019 to $6.17 billion in 2024. According to Wara, this wildfire spending was the “largest driver of rate increase for PG&E over the last decade,” and the majority of these investments happened outside of the city — where wildfires actually get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087363\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087363\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-07-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-07-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-07-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-07-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A PG&E substation on Mission and 8th Streets in San Francisco on June 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The investments still benefit San Franciscans by protecting them from the impacts of these natural disasters and making sure their energy gets to them safely. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The SFPUC also noted that the agency will continue to pay PG&E for their \u003ca href=\"https://publicpowersf.org/faq\">transmission\u003c/a> — the wires that get electricity to the city — and will therefore continue to pay into wildfire prevention costs. Coté also shared that the CPUC \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">will ultimately be responsible for making sure that PG&E’s remaining ratepayers are not harmed by San Francisco leaving the utility. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I know people that really think this is a great idea, but they tend to think about it solely from the perspective of San Francisco and the residents of San Francisco,” Wara said, referring to a takeover. “At the end of the day, the city is a regional entity that relies on energy that comes from oil refineries, electric dams and ports across the state.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wara said that because “electric power is this essential good that’s provided over a very large system,” more radical change — like turning all of PG&E into a public utility — would be better than cities leaving individually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jessica Tovar, a climate and environmental justice advocate in San Francisco, generally agreed with this take.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I really would like to see a municipalization push that’s not solely big cities like San Francisco,” she said, “but other communities as well, because there is a lot of benefit to having control of the whole system.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087361\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087361\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">International currency and graduation photos from customers hang behind the counter at Pizza Joint in San Francisco’s Richmond District on June 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While experts and advocates agree that PG&E’s current structure does not always protect consumers, “there’s a lot less consensus among the voters on what to do than there is on the fact that something needs to be done,” Lappen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These utilities really prop up daily life and any sort of change that risks increasing costs for any portion of the electorate would be really immediately and severely felt,” Lappen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dabit, the Pizza Joint owner, said that while he had “heard about the government taking over PG&E, I don’t know if it’s going to be any better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We just need PG&E, and whoever is providing electricity and gas to all these restaurants all over the city, to just be fair,” he said. “Just be fair, you know? We’re struggling. We really are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story has been updated to reflect that San Francisco will remain a transmission customer of PG&E if the city achieves public power. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Joe Dabit’s cozy, mural-covered restaurant, Pizza Joint, sits next to George Washington High School in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Outer Richmond neighborhood. Every afternoon, students line up to buy lunch at the counter and take home half-price slices at the end of the day. He credits them with keeping the business afloat — a task that’s gotten harder thanks, in part, to\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082876/pge-bills-are-going-up-heres-why\"> rising electricity costs. \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Energy prices are crazy. Two or three years ago, I used to pay $1,000 to $1,100, $1,200 max,” Dabit, 62, said. “My last bill was $2,800.” His utility bills now cost almost as much as rent for his 900-square-foot restaurant\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dabit’s energy problems reached a new level in December when a PG&E \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083011/humidity-at-pge-substation-likely-cause-of-massive-december-san-francisco-blackout\">substation\u003c/a> fire caused a three-day power outage for the neighborhood. In addition to losing business, Dabit lost $10,000 to $15,000 worth of ingredients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The utility company initially offered him just $2,500, he said — which barely covered his typical electricity bill, let alone all the product and business that he lost. After more than three months of back and forth, he said he finally got PG&E to agree to something he found reasonable, but only after threatening to hire a lawyer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Between December’s series of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12073229/san-francisco-supervisors-probe-pge-after-widespread-winter-power-outages\">power\u003c/a> outages and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/nhttps:/www.kqed.org/news/12033386/pge-electricity-rates-have-jumped-nearly-70-since-2020ews/12033386/pge-electricity-rates-have-jumped-nearly-70-since-2020\">skyrocketing\u003c/a> electricity bills, Dabit and other San Franciscans are growing increasingly frustrated with the utility company. In February, a group of residents and small businesses \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12071937/san-francisco-small-businesses-to-sue-pge-over-losses-from-december-power-outages\">filed a class-action lawsuit\u003c/a> against PG&E, alleging the utility failed to remediate major financial losses after major \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101912529/san-francisco-blackouts-raise-concerns-about-pge-and-robotaxis\">power outages in December\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their discontent recently led the Board of Supervisors to reaffirm their commitment to cutting ties with PG&E, a process that’s been quietly underway for about five years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087359\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087359\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-01-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-01-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-01-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-01-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers sit at Pizza Joint in San Francisco’s Richmond District on June 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While PG&E has said that a takeover would \u003ca href=\"https://www.pge.com/en/newsroom/currents/future-of-energy/city-and-county-of-san-francisco-proposal-to-take-over-pg-e-elec.html\">increase\u003c/a> San Francisco electricity rates for decades, some advocates believe it might be the only way out. With the ever-increasing cost of living, would a takeover make life easier for Dabit?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though many residents may not be aware of it, the city has been in a protracted battle over whether or not to leave PG&E since the start of the 20th century, said Josh Lappen, a researcher at the University of Notre Dame who studies utilities and energy. The last significant attempt took place in the early 2000s and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/In-S-F-voters-defeat-Prop-H-for-city-utility-3186957.php\">failed\u003c/a> as a ballot measure over concerns about government spending, questions about San Francisco’s ability to run a utility and significant campaigning from PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While similar ballot measures have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.spur.org/publications/voter-guide/2008-11-01/proposition-h-municipalizing-electric-service\">voted\u003c/a> down for decades, the city may no longer have to go through voter approval. Since residents passed \u003ca href=\"https://ballotpedia.org/San_Francisco,_California,_Proposition_A,_Revenue_Bonds_for_Power_Facilities_Excluding_Fossil_Fuels_and_Nuclear_Energy_Charter_Amendment_(June_2018)\">Proposition A\u003c/a> in 2018, the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission can now issue revenue bonds to buy clean power facilities with approval by two-thirds of the Board of Supervisors. This means that, if San Francisco and PG&E agree on a price, the city could potentially buy PG&E’s wire, poles and other physical infrastructure without putting anything on the ballot, according to John Coté, a spokesperson for San Francisco Power and Water.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The city’s latest attempt to buy the utility officially \u003ca href=\"https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Efile/G000/M394/K796/394796977.PDF\">started\u003c/a> in 2019 when it offered $2.5 billion for PG&E’s infrastructure. The company rejected the offer outright, saying the offer was too low, but in 2021, the city asked the California Public Utilities Commission to set a fair price. After years of delays, the CPUC directed San Francisco to submit its valuation and for PG&E to file its response by Oct. 20, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April, San Francisco submitted a valuation of $3.4 billion to acquire the land, infrastructure and equipment needed for a takeover. PG&E, which has repeatedly said its infrastructure is not for sale, said in a statement around the same time that San Francisco “greatly undervalues” the utility’s property, and doesn’t account for separation costs or costs of state-mandated programs that would be offloaded onto remaining customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If San Francisco ever gets to the end of this process, Jim Lazar, an economist with a five-decade career in utility regulation and an advocate for public power, estimated that rates could go down by 15%-20% in the 10 years following purchase. Lazar said that prices would go down primarily because investor-owned utilities come with some baked-in costs that make them more expensive to run than consumer-owned utilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, being a public, nonprofit company allows consumer-owned utilities to both borrow money for construction projects at a cheaper rate and to pay less in taxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer-owned utilities also tend to pay their executives less than investor-owned utilities, and that’s certainly the case for PG&E. The CEO of the Sacramento Municipal Utility District, a consumer-owned utility, is set to earn \u003ca href=\"https://www.smud.org/-/media/Documents/Corporate/Careers-at-SMUD/Salary-Schedule.ashx\">$1.4 million\u003c/a> in 2026. While that’s a lot, PG&E’s CEO made\u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1004980/000100498026000020/pcg-20260409.htm#i76f77ef7e29d43c3add9edcb2e098a62_55\"> $19.8 million\u003c/a> in 2025 alone. The skilled workers that maintain the grid, however, earn about the same regardless of ownership — about \u003ca href=\"https://www.smud.org/-/media/Documents/Corporate/Careers-at-SMUD/Salary-Schedule.ashx\">$79\u003c/a> per hour at SMUD and about \u003ca href=\"https://jobs.pge.com/lineworker\">$77\u003c/a> at PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087362\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087362\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-04-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-04-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-04-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-04-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A PG&E substation on Mission and 8th Streets in San Francisco on June 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As an investor-owned utility, PG&E also pays dividends to shareholders. While PG&E said that those dividends make up less than\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999400/bay-area-electricity-bills-are-some-of-the-highest-where-does-your-money-go\"> 1%\u003c/a> of a typical residential bill, the incentive to generate dividends creates one more expense for ratepayers — a never-ending need to increase profits by building more infrastructure. In 2024, they built enough to pay their shareholders \u003ca href=\"https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001004980/b7a70191-b3cb-41e7-8f6e-4d5d22abd201.pdf\">$1.45\u003c/a> billion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While ratepayers may see gains in the long run, Michael Wara, a senior research scholar at Stanford University’s Woods Institute for the Environment, said \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">there would be inherent challenges to exiting a grid that is part of “a \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">regional\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> system.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, Wara said, PG&E ratepayers outside of San Francisco, including places like Oakland and Marin, would take on the costs that San Francisco leaves behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s why: San Francisco ratepayers subsidize grid upgrades across Northern California, particularly in fire-prone areas, and \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> energy programs for low-income residents, according to multiple experts KQED spoke with\u003c/span>. And PG&E \u003ca href=\"https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/outages-and-safety/outage-preparedness-and-support/PGE-2023-RNR-R0.pdf\">increased\u003c/a> its spending on wildfire prevention from $3.84 billion in 2019 to $6.17 billion in 2024. According to Wara, this wildfire spending was the “largest driver of rate increase for PG&E over the last decade,” and the majority of these investments happened outside of the city — where wildfires actually get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087363\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087363\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-07-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-07-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-07-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260611-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-07-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A PG&E substation on Mission and 8th Streets in San Francisco on June 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The investments still benefit San Franciscans by protecting them from the impacts of these natural disasters and making sure their energy gets to them safely. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The SFPUC also noted that the agency will continue to pay PG&E for their \u003ca href=\"https://publicpowersf.org/faq\">transmission\u003c/a> — the wires that get electricity to the city — and will therefore continue to pay into wildfire prevention costs. Coté also shared that the CPUC \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">will ultimately be responsible for making sure that PG&E’s remaining ratepayers are not harmed by San Francisco leaving the utility. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I know people that really think this is a great idea, but they tend to think about it solely from the perspective of San Francisco and the residents of San Francisco,” Wara said, referring to a takeover. “At the end of the day, the city is a regional entity that relies on energy that comes from oil refineries, electric dams and ports across the state.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wara said that because “electric power is this essential good that’s provided over a very large system,” more radical change — like turning all of PG&E into a public utility — would be better than cities leaving individually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jessica Tovar, a climate and environmental justice advocate in San Francisco, generally agreed with this take.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I really would like to see a municipalization push that’s not solely big cities like San Francisco,” she said, “but other communities as well, because there is a lot of benefit to having control of the whole system.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087361\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087361\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260608-PGEBREAKUPPRICING-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">International currency and graduation photos from customers hang behind the counter at Pizza Joint in San Francisco’s Richmond District on June 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While experts and advocates agree that PG&E’s current structure does not always protect consumers, “there’s a lot less consensus among the voters on what to do than there is on the fact that something needs to be done,” Lappen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These utilities really prop up daily life and any sort of change that risks increasing costs for any portion of the electorate would be really immediately and severely felt,” Lappen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dabit, the Pizza Joint owner, said that while he had “heard about the government taking over PG&E, I don’t know if it’s going to be any better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We just need PG&E, and whoever is providing electricity and gas to all these restaurants all over the city, to just be fair,” he said. “Just be fair, you know? We’re struggling. We really are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story has been updated to reflect that San Francisco will remain a transmission customer of PG&E if the city achieves public power. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "what-do-californias-recent-college-grads-think-about-ai",
"title": "What Do California’s Recent College Grads Think About AI?",
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"headTitle": "What Do California’s Recent College Grads Think About AI? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>As college graduates throw off their caps and move on to their next life chapter, one topic is surely on their minds: Has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> made their skills irrelevant? And what does an entry-level job even look like anymore?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the past month, graduates across the country have\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/05/20/nx-s1-5822419/ai-colleges-commencement-booing\"> booed and jeered\u003c/a> college commencement speakers at the very mention of AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s no surprise. Recent polling suggests the technology weighs heavily on the minds of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079472/stanford-study-ai-experts-are-optimistic-about-ai-the-rest-of-us-not-so-much\">those already in the job market\u003c/a> and those who seek to \u003ca href=\"https://news.gallup.com/poll/704087/college-students-weigh-impact-majors-careers.aspx\">join it\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Several college graduates from around the state spoke with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> about how they’re navigating the unpredictable economy, and how AI factors into their job search. The testimonies below have been edited for brevity and clarity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087236\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087236\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-scaled.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-1536x2048.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gisselle Ulloa poses with her diploma from California State Polytechnic University, Pomona. Ulloa, who plans to be a teacher, said she witnessed the impact of AI on her middle-schoolers in the classroom. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Gisselle Ulloa)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Gisselle Ulloa\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> California State Polytechnic University, Pomona\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Liberal Studies\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are your plans after graduation? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I plan to be a teacher in the near future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How does AI affect you? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a recent graduate, it is intimidating to apply to jobs and fail to meet the criteria of artificial intelligence. There’ve been occasions where I feel … the employer is not even going to gaze at my resume. Of course, jobs don’t come easily, and you have to earn your position. But it’s really difficult to learn to satisfy an algorithm instead of a person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With my experience tutoring, I saw the effects of AI, social media and electronics in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I worked with middle schoolers last year. Seeing my students struggle to write paragraphs with a pencil or solve math problems [with] ChatGPT was discouraging. It put into perspective the amount of work needed from teachers and staff to get students to where they need to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teachers can only do so much. As an aspiring educator, [AI] is a really pivotal tool, and I’m sure it works for bigger things, [like] social media and technology. But I fear it’s going to impact classrooms negatively in the years to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Camalah Saleh\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> California State University, Fresno\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Political Science and Communication\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are your plans after graduation?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I go to China at the end of August to earn a master’s in Global Affairs as a Schwarzman Scholar at Tsinghua University. My goal is to connect international affairs and global affairs to immigration because I want to be an immigration attorney and work on refugee and asylum cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087227\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087227\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CamalahSaleh.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CamalahSaleh.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CamalahSaleh-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CamalahSaleh-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Camalah Saleh smiles after graduating from California State University, Fresno. She said she initially tried to ignore ChatGPT but realized AI is not going anywhere. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Camalah Saleh)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How does AI affect you?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When ChatGPT first came out, everyone was talking about it, and I didn’t know what it was. I ignored it. I’m in a field where you need to critically write and be a critical thinker, and it can’t just do your work for you. Then, I realized [AI] is not going away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve looked at the way it’s going to impact my career. To see lawyers using it is really worrisome because … there’s a lot of ethical concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I need to pay attention to how it’s going to advance. And people need to be literate in AI so that they can analyze what is and is not made by AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087237\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087237\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-scaled.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-1536x2048.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Michelle Yang poses with her diploma at Oracle Park in San Francisco. She said the threat of AI taking over peoples’ jobs is “pretty scary.” \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Michelle Yang)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Michelle Yang\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> San Francisco State University\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Marketing\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are your plans after graduation? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I want to go into event [planning]. Hopefully, within the music industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How does AI affect you?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With most jobs that include administration and planning, AI definitely has or could have the potential to take over certain skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But with events, it’s a very in-person, human interaction type of industry. So, that’s not something I’m worried about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Graduating college right now, it’s pretty scary with this threat of AI taking over. We spent so much time in school figuring out what we want to do after college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I can decide not to use AI within my life. But as society progresses, especially in San Francisco, AI [will] become more incorporated into society, [and] there might not be a choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Michelle Yang is a Live Events intern at KQED. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Amelia Zai\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> UCLA (incoming senior)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Mechanical Engineering\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are your plans after graduation?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll probably start applying [for entry-level jobs] in the fall. I already know that even without AI, the job market is really difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087221\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1280px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087221\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Amelia_Zai.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1280\" height=\"853\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Amelia_Zai.jpeg 1280w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Amelia_Zai-160x107.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1280px) 100vw, 1280px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Amelia Zai \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Amelia Zai)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How do you feel about AI?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m the president of the AI Robotics and Ethics Society at the University of California, Los Angeles. A lot of students here are aware of how AI is reshaping the world. They see it in the news; they’re seeing it in their classes; they use AI to help them understand assignments. I do that too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During every discussion, it’s inevitable that the question of whether AI will replace roles in some field comes up. I think it’s less of a competition between AI and people, and more of a competition between people who use AI and people who don’t know how to use AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because I know that AI is such a powerful tool, I’m trying to use that to my advantage and integrate it into my workflow to make myself a more efficient thinker. It’s the responsibility of universities to ensure that their graduates are competitive. And one way to achieve that goal is to integrate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Aaron Kim\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Political Science\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Career path: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Labor/Union Organizing\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How does AI affect you? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Luckily, in terms of my personal career trajectory, it still feels pretty peripheral. I ended up doing a lot of stuff in the union/labor world, so AI affects me less. None of the jobs that I was looking for are AI-exposed as much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A lot of the organizations I’m interested in are concerned with progressive issues and working people. How would you feel if your union rep is ChatGPT and tries to get you to sign union cards? That’s something AI can never take away. Because so much of organizing is based on building trust, human to human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>As college graduates throw off their caps and move on to their next life chapter, one topic is surely on their minds: Has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> made their skills irrelevant? And what does an entry-level job even look like anymore?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the past month, graduates across the country have\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/05/20/nx-s1-5822419/ai-colleges-commencement-booing\"> booed and jeered\u003c/a> college commencement speakers at the very mention of AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s no surprise. Recent polling suggests the technology weighs heavily on the minds of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079472/stanford-study-ai-experts-are-optimistic-about-ai-the-rest-of-us-not-so-much\">those already in the job market\u003c/a> and those who seek to \u003ca href=\"https://news.gallup.com/poll/704087/college-students-weigh-impact-majors-careers.aspx\">join it\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Several college graduates from around the state spoke with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> about how they’re navigating the unpredictable economy, and how AI factors into their job search. The testimonies below have been edited for brevity and clarity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087236\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087236\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-scaled.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GisselleUlloa-1536x2048.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gisselle Ulloa poses with her diploma from California State Polytechnic University, Pomona. Ulloa, who plans to be a teacher, said she witnessed the impact of AI on her middle-schoolers in the classroom. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Gisselle Ulloa)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Gisselle Ulloa\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> California State Polytechnic University, Pomona\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Liberal Studies\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are your plans after graduation? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I plan to be a teacher in the near future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How does AI affect you? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a recent graduate, it is intimidating to apply to jobs and fail to meet the criteria of artificial intelligence. There’ve been occasions where I feel … the employer is not even going to gaze at my resume. Of course, jobs don’t come easily, and you have to earn your position. But it’s really difficult to learn to satisfy an algorithm instead of a person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With my experience tutoring, I saw the effects of AI, social media and electronics in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I worked with middle schoolers last year. Seeing my students struggle to write paragraphs with a pencil or solve math problems [with] ChatGPT was discouraging. It put into perspective the amount of work needed from teachers and staff to get students to where they need to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teachers can only do so much. As an aspiring educator, [AI] is a really pivotal tool, and I’m sure it works for bigger things, [like] social media and technology. But I fear it’s going to impact classrooms negatively in the years to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Camalah Saleh\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> California State University, Fresno\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Political Science and Communication\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are your plans after graduation?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I go to China at the end of August to earn a master’s in Global Affairs as a Schwarzman Scholar at Tsinghua University. My goal is to connect international affairs and global affairs to immigration because I want to be an immigration attorney and work on refugee and asylum cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087227\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087227\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CamalahSaleh.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CamalahSaleh.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CamalahSaleh-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CamalahSaleh-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Camalah Saleh smiles after graduating from California State University, Fresno. She said she initially tried to ignore ChatGPT but realized AI is not going anywhere. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Camalah Saleh)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How does AI affect you?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When ChatGPT first came out, everyone was talking about it, and I didn’t know what it was. I ignored it. I’m in a field where you need to critically write and be a critical thinker, and it can’t just do your work for you. Then, I realized [AI] is not going away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve looked at the way it’s going to impact my career. To see lawyers using it is really worrisome because … there’s a lot of ethical concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I need to pay attention to how it’s going to advance. And people need to be literate in AI so that they can analyze what is and is not made by AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087237\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087237\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-scaled.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/MichelleYang-1536x2048.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Michelle Yang poses with her diploma at Oracle Park in San Francisco. She said the threat of AI taking over peoples’ jobs is “pretty scary.” \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Michelle Yang)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Michelle Yang\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> San Francisco State University\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Marketing\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are your plans after graduation? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I want to go into event [planning]. Hopefully, within the music industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How does AI affect you?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With most jobs that include administration and planning, AI definitely has or could have the potential to take over certain skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But with events, it’s a very in-person, human interaction type of industry. So, that’s not something I’m worried about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Graduating college right now, it’s pretty scary with this threat of AI taking over. We spent so much time in school figuring out what we want to do after college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I can decide not to use AI within my life. But as society progresses, especially in San Francisco, AI [will] become more incorporated into society, [and] there might not be a choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Michelle Yang is a Live Events intern at KQED. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Amelia Zai\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> UCLA (incoming senior)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Mechanical Engineering\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are your plans after graduation?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll probably start applying [for entry-level jobs] in the fall. I already know that even without AI, the job market is really difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087221\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1280px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087221\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Amelia_Zai.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1280\" height=\"853\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Amelia_Zai.jpeg 1280w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/Amelia_Zai-160x107.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1280px) 100vw, 1280px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Amelia Zai \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Amelia Zai)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How do you feel about AI?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m the president of the AI Robotics and Ethics Society at the University of California, Los Angeles. A lot of students here are aware of how AI is reshaping the world. They see it in the news; they’re seeing it in their classes; they use AI to help them understand assignments. I do that too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During every discussion, it’s inevitable that the question of whether AI will replace roles in some field comes up. I think it’s less of a competition between AI and people, and more of a competition between people who use AI and people who don’t know how to use AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because I know that AI is such a powerful tool, I’m trying to use that to my advantage and integrate it into my workflow to make myself a more efficient thinker. It’s the responsibility of universities to ensure that their graduates are competitive. And one way to achieve that goal is to integrate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Aaron Kim\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>School:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Major:\u003c/strong> Political Science\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Career path: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Labor/Union Organizing\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How does AI affect you? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Luckily, in terms of my personal career trajectory, it still feels pretty peripheral. I ended up doing a lot of stuff in the union/labor world, so AI affects me less. None of the jobs that I was looking for are AI-exposed as much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A lot of the organizations I’m interested in are concerned with progressive issues and working people. How would you feel if your union rep is ChatGPT and tries to get you to sign union cards? That’s something AI can never take away. Because so much of organizing is based on building trust, human to human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"californiareport": {
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"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
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"order": 8
},
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},
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"title": "The California Report Magazine",
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"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"order": 15
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 18
},
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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