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The state could build upon \u003ca href=\"https://calbudgetcenter.org/resources/california-funding-trends-for-early-care-education-programs/\">its ongoing investments in child care\u003c/a> and work toward universal care for infants and toddlers, aged three and under.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cost could reach up to $21 billion per year to subsidize all families, but it would generate as much as $23 billion in economic output — essentially paying for itself — by allowing mothers of young children to rejoin the workforce, according to an analysis by the \u003ca href=\"https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/economics-market-early-childhood-care-and-education-california#15\">Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That is not considering the many other benefits that accrue to the children themselves, to families and to society from having a robust, high-quality, well-functioning early childhood care and education market,” said Chloe Gibbs, a policy fellow at the institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.childcareaware.org/price-landscape24/\">Child care prices went up 29%\u003c/a> across the country from 2020 to 2024, according to Child Care Aware of America, a national network of child care resource and referral agencies. The prices outpaced overall inflation as increased demand for care collided with a worsening shortage of child care workers, \u003ca href=\"https://kpmg.com/us/en/articles/2025/october-2025-the-great-exit.html\">according to the business firm KPMG\u003c/a>, which noted that women with young children are increasingly working part-time, missing work or \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061802/how-are-child-care-costs-affecting-the-lives-of-bay-area-families-you-told-us\">leaving the labor force entirely\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12071641\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1998px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12071641\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251008-CHILDCARE-DISCRIMINATION-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1998\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251008-CHILDCARE-DISCRIMINATION-MD-05_qed.jpg 1998w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251008-CHILDCARE-DISCRIMINATION-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251008-CHILDCARE-DISCRIMINATION-MD-05_qed-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1998px) 100vw, 1998px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A child care business owner holds one of the younger children attending her home daycare in Manteca on Oct. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Affordability concerns are front and center for American households, and that also means there is a political and policy window of opportunity to take strides,” said Neale Mahoney, an economics professor and director of the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Economists call child care an example of a market failure because the cost of providing care exceeds what families can afford to pay, resulting in an imbalance between supply and demand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Child care for infants and toddlers is harder to come by and costs the most because babies require constant attention. Providers must maintain a low caregiver-to-child ratio, which limits capacity, but have a hard time retaining workers. Policy experts say subsidies can help close the gap between what parents can afford and what it actually costs to provide high-quality care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Specifically, Stanford economists estimate that California could subsidize infant and toddler care for low- and middle-income earners at a cost of between $4 billion to $8 billion per year, or between $12 billion to $21 billion to scale the subsidies to all families.[aside postID=news_12069711 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260115-SFCHILDCARESUBSIDIES00057_TV-KQED.jpg']A universal “zero to three” child care program could allow more than 100,000 mothers of young children to join the workforce, they said. Stanford coordinated the publication of its policy brief with another by researchers at the University of California that outlines ways to build up the child care system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.cpip.uci.edu/files/briefs/zero-to-three.pdf\">paper by two early childhood policy experts\u003c/a> at UC Irvine and UC Berkeley lays out more than a dozen suggestions to build a child care system that works for families and child providers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They include consolidating more than a dozen funding streams for child care and simplifying eligibility rules to make it easier for child care providers to enroll families; making Head Start centers eligible for state funding so they can serve more children; cutting fees and easing zoning restrictions to get child care facilities up and running faster; and setting up a comprehensive online portal where families can find the kind of child care they need and providers can respond to market demand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>We don’t have anybody that’s looking out across California [for child care needs] the way we look at where we should build schools or where we should put bus stops or post offices,” said Jade Jenkins, a professor at UC Irvine’s School of Education. “If we provide families information in this online marketplace to make finding child care as easy as it would be to register for yoga … we could meet families where they are at and draw providers in.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said modernizing child care information is one of several low-cost fixes the state can undertake to prepare for expansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, Assembly Speaker Robert Rivas called California’s cost of living “the single biggest threat to our future” and set up a select committee to focus on child care costs. He said now that California has fully expanded transitional kindergarten, also known as TK, to offer a free year of schooling for all 4-year-olds, it’s time for the legislature to focus on helping families afford child care for the youngest kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12071645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12071645\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/231002-ChildCareLaborMovement-011-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/231002-ChildCareLaborMovement-011-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/231002-ChildCareLaborMovement-011-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/231002-ChildCareLaborMovement-011-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A day care worker hugs a child in a playroom at her child care facility in San José on Oct. 2, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The committee held three hearings last year but has yet to propose any solution. At a hearing held in Los Angeles, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article312533574.html\">only one of 13 members of the committee showed up\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the most recent hearing in December, Assembly Majority Leader Cecilia Aguiar-Curry, who co-chairs the committee, told KQED that more time is needed to investigate which model of child care expansion works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been working on this ever since I came [to the legislature] in 2016, and I can see that we’ve got more work to do, but we got to do it right, and we just can’t be slapstick,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said the quick buildout of TK led to \u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/education/early-childhood-education-pre-k/transitional-kindergarten-public-preschool-affluent-income-report\">unintended consequences\u003c/a>, including the closure of private or nonprofit-based preschools that lost their 4-year-old students to publicly-funded schools and struggled to pivot to serving younger kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/8658266/dc85b370721c\" frameborder=\"0\" width=\"900\" height=\"500\" style=\"overflow:hidden\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Aguiar-Curry said New Mexico could offer universal child care because it has a smaller population and can draw on oil and gas profits to fund the initiative. That’s harder to do in a big state like California, she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ll see how they roll that out,” she said. “I hope that they’re successful and I hope we can all learn from their lessons.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an email message Thursday, Aguiar-Curry said she looks forward to digging into the new reports. In the meantime, she said she’ll keep working with the legislature and Gov. Gavin Newsom to follow through on promises to raise reimbursement rates for child care providers participating in the subsidy system and fund up to 200,000 subsidized child care slots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Those steps will make a real difference for families across the state, and we’re going to keep pushing to bring costs down,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The soaring cost of child care has recently led states like New Mexico to offer universal child care and cities like New York and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069711/san-francisco-expands-child-care-subsidies-to-tackle-affordability-issues\">San Francisco to expand\u003c/a> free and low-cost child care to income-eligible families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Could it be done in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In two papers published Friday, researchers say, in short: Yes. The state could build upon \u003ca href=\"https://calbudgetcenter.org/resources/california-funding-trends-for-early-care-education-programs/\">its ongoing investments in child care\u003c/a> and work toward universal care for infants and toddlers, aged three and under.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cost could reach up to $21 billion per year to subsidize all families, but it would generate as much as $23 billion in economic output — essentially paying for itself — by allowing mothers of young children to rejoin the workforce, according to an analysis by the \u003ca href=\"https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/economics-market-early-childhood-care-and-education-california#15\">Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That is not considering the many other benefits that accrue to the children themselves, to families and to society from having a robust, high-quality, well-functioning early childhood care and education market,” said Chloe Gibbs, a policy fellow at the institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.childcareaware.org/price-landscape24/\">Child care prices went up 29%\u003c/a> across the country from 2020 to 2024, according to Child Care Aware of America, a national network of child care resource and referral agencies. The prices outpaced overall inflation as increased demand for care collided with a worsening shortage of child care workers, \u003ca href=\"https://kpmg.com/us/en/articles/2025/october-2025-the-great-exit.html\">according to the business firm KPMG\u003c/a>, which noted that women with young children are increasingly working part-time, missing work or \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061802/how-are-child-care-costs-affecting-the-lives-of-bay-area-families-you-told-us\">leaving the labor force entirely\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12071641\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1998px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12071641\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251008-CHILDCARE-DISCRIMINATION-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1998\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251008-CHILDCARE-DISCRIMINATION-MD-05_qed.jpg 1998w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251008-CHILDCARE-DISCRIMINATION-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251008-CHILDCARE-DISCRIMINATION-MD-05_qed-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1998px) 100vw, 1998px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A child care business owner holds one of the younger children attending her home daycare in Manteca on Oct. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Affordability concerns are front and center for American households, and that also means there is a political and policy window of opportunity to take strides,” said Neale Mahoney, an economics professor and director of the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Economists call child care an example of a market failure because the cost of providing care exceeds what families can afford to pay, resulting in an imbalance between supply and demand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Child care for infants and toddlers is harder to come by and costs the most because babies require constant attention. Providers must maintain a low caregiver-to-child ratio, which limits capacity, but have a hard time retaining workers. Policy experts say subsidies can help close the gap between what parents can afford and what it actually costs to provide high-quality care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Specifically, Stanford economists estimate that California could subsidize infant and toddler care for low- and middle-income earners at a cost of between $4 billion to $8 billion per year, or between $12 billion to $21 billion to scale the subsidies to all families.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>A universal “zero to three” child care program could allow more than 100,000 mothers of young children to join the workforce, they said. Stanford coordinated the publication of its policy brief with another by researchers at the University of California that outlines ways to build up the child care system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.cpip.uci.edu/files/briefs/zero-to-three.pdf\">paper by two early childhood policy experts\u003c/a> at UC Irvine and UC Berkeley lays out more than a dozen suggestions to build a child care system that works for families and child providers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They include consolidating more than a dozen funding streams for child care and simplifying eligibility rules to make it easier for child care providers to enroll families; making Head Start centers eligible for state funding so they can serve more children; cutting fees and easing zoning restrictions to get child care facilities up and running faster; and setting up a comprehensive online portal where families can find the kind of child care they need and providers can respond to market demand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>We don’t have anybody that’s looking out across California [for child care needs] the way we look at where we should build schools or where we should put bus stops or post offices,” said Jade Jenkins, a professor at UC Irvine’s School of Education. “If we provide families information in this online marketplace to make finding child care as easy as it would be to register for yoga … we could meet families where they are at and draw providers in.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said modernizing child care information is one of several low-cost fixes the state can undertake to prepare for expansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, Assembly Speaker Robert Rivas called California’s cost of living “the single biggest threat to our future” and set up a select committee to focus on child care costs. He said now that California has fully expanded transitional kindergarten, also known as TK, to offer a free year of schooling for all 4-year-olds, it’s time for the legislature to focus on helping families afford child care for the youngest kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12071645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12071645\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/231002-ChildCareLaborMovement-011-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/231002-ChildCareLaborMovement-011-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/231002-ChildCareLaborMovement-011-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/231002-ChildCareLaborMovement-011-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A day care worker hugs a child in a playroom at her child care facility in San José on Oct. 2, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The committee held three hearings last year but has yet to propose any solution. At a hearing held in Los Angeles, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article312533574.html\">only one of 13 members of the committee showed up\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the most recent hearing in December, Assembly Majority Leader Cecilia Aguiar-Curry, who co-chairs the committee, told KQED that more time is needed to investigate which model of child care expansion works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been working on this ever since I came [to the legislature] in 2016, and I can see that we’ve got more work to do, but we got to do it right, and we just can’t be slapstick,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said the quick buildout of TK led to \u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/education/early-childhood-education-pre-k/transitional-kindergarten-public-preschool-affluent-income-report\">unintended consequences\u003c/a>, including the closure of private or nonprofit-based preschools that lost their 4-year-old students to publicly-funded schools and struggled to pivot to serving younger kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/8658266/dc85b370721c\" frameborder=\"0\" width=\"900\" height=\"500\" style=\"overflow:hidden\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Aguiar-Curry said New Mexico could offer universal child care because it has a smaller population and can draw on oil and gas profits to fund the initiative. That’s harder to do in a big state like California, she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ll see how they roll that out,” she said. “I hope that they’re successful and I hope we can all learn from their lessons.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an email message Thursday, Aguiar-Curry said she looks forward to digging into the new reports. In the meantime, she said she’ll keep working with the legislature and Gov. Gavin Newsom to follow through on promises to raise reimbursement rates for child care providers participating in the subsidy system and fund up to 200,000 subsidized child care slots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Those steps will make a real difference for families across the state, and we’re going to keep pushing to bring costs down,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "steer-clear-of-ai-companion-toys-for-kids-another-advocacy-group-warns",
"title": "Steer Clear of AI Companion Toys for Kids, Another Advocacy Group Warns",
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"headTitle": "Steer Clear of AI Companion Toys for Kids, Another Advocacy Group Warns | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Three voice-activated, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI-powered\u003c/a> toys tested by Common Sense Media researchers raised concerns that they were designed to engineer emotional attachment with young children and collect private data, according to the nonprofit’s report released Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The warning is the latest in a string from consumer advocates about the risks posed to children by artificial intelligence, including in the form of toys like stuffed animals or brightly colored plastic robots that act as chatbots, conversing and telling stories to children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unlike traditional toys, these devices present a range of new harms,” Common Sense Media researchers wrote in their \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/ai-toys\">report\u003c/a>, which tested the Grem, Bondu and Miko 3 toys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The children’s advocacy group recommended that parents not give AI companion toys to children 5 and younger, and it warned parents to exercise “extreme caution” even with children 6 to 13 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the group’s December survey of 1,004 parents of children ranging from infants to age 8, nearly half of parents have purchased or are considering purchasing these toys or similar ones for their children. The products are sold by major retailers like Walmart, Costco, Amazon and Target. One in 6 parents told Common Sense they have already purchased one, and 10% said they “definitely plan to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070893\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070893\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hyodol, the world’s first AI-based companion robot dolls, are being exhibited in the South Korean pavilion at the Mobile World Congress 2024 in Barcelona, Spain, on April 2, 2024. Created by a South Korean company, these dolls are designed to serve as social companions for the elderly and have been commercialized in several countries.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Common Sense Media is not usually in the business of saying, don’t use technology entirely,” said Robbie Torney, head of AI & digital assessments for Common Sense Media. “We really want to trust parents and empower them to make the best choices for their kids. But for under-5 children in particular, our testing showed a set of risks that are really a big developmental mismatch for where these young children are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media researchers tested the toys by creating child accounts for “users” ages 6 to 13, putting them through both everyday use and sensitive scenarios. Their team, including child development experts, evaluated everything from voice recognition and content accuracy to privacy practices, parental controls and whether the toys’ responses were developmentally appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though the toys are marketed as educational, more than a quarter of their responses in testing weren’t child-appropriate, the Common Sense report found. They included problematic content related to drugs, sex and risky activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our testing did show that these companies have put tremendous effort into guardrailing their chatbots,” Torney said. But “chatbots don’t understand context. They can’t make determinations about what a child actually means. If you ask about self-harm and then ask for dangerous chemicals, many of these devices will refuse the self-harm question, but won’t make the connection that dangerous chemicals might enable self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ritvik Sharma, chief growth officer at Miko, based in Mumbai, India, wrote that “child safety, privacy, and healthy development are foundational design requirements — not afterthoughts.” He also said the company was unable to reproduce the behaviors cited by Common Sense Media researchers “under normal operation,” sharing videos that showed Miko redirecting away from potentially problematic questions.[aside postID=news_12069286 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/OpenAI.jpg']“Miko’s conversational experience is powered by a proprietary, child-focused AI system developed specifically for young users, rather than adapted from general-purpose AI models,” Sharma added. “This allows us to evaluate responses for age suitability, emotional tone, and educational value before they reach a child.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, a spokesperson from Redwood-City-based Curio Interactive, which makes Grem, said the company’s toys “are designed with parent permission and control at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over a two-year beta period, we worked with approximately 2,000 families to develop a multi-tiered safety system that combines constrained conversational scope, age-appropriate design, layered filtering and refusal mechanisms, and continuous real-world monitoring, with safeguards enforced at multiple points in the interaction,” the spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Torney said parents need to ask themselves how much they trust the internet-connected companions not to cross developmentally appropriate lines into psychologically damaging territory when there’s no meaningful product safety regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the characteristics of under-5 children is that they have magical thinking, and what’s sometimes referred to as animism, the belief that objects may be real. They think about them differently than older children do,” Torney said. He acknowledged magical thinking can continue into later childhood as well, “which is why we’re still encouraging that extreme caution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Common Sense Media report comes after an \u003ca href=\"https://fairplayforkids.org/pf/aitoyadvisory\">advisory published in November\u003c/a> by the children’s advocacy group Fairplay strongly urged parents not to buy AI toys during the holiday season. The advisory was signed by more than 150 organizations, child psychiatrists and educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the new AI toys react contingently to young children,” wrote UC Berkeley professor Fei Xu, who directs the Berkeley Early Learning Lab. “That is, when a child says something, the AI toy says something back; if a child waves at the AI toy, it moves. This kind of social contingency is known to be very important for early social, emotional and language development. This raises the potential issue of young children being emotionally attached to these AI toys. More research is urgently needed to study this systematically.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to be exceptionally cautious when introducing understudied technologies with young children, whose biological and emotional minds are very vulnerable,” UCSF psychiatry and pediatrics professor Dr. Nicole Bush wrote. “While AI has the capacity for tremendous benefit to society, young children’s time is better spent with trusted adults and peers, or in constructive play or learning activities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1484px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070888\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1484\" height=\"492\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png 1484w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5-160x53.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1484px) 100vw, 1484px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A chat between a Common Sense Media tester and Miko 3, an AI toy. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, Common Sense Media and OpenAI announced they’re backing a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">consolidated effort\u003c/a> to put a measure on this November’s ballot in California that would institute AI chatbot guardrails for children. That effort is now in the signature-gathering stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A legislative measure that Common Sense backed, covering much of the same territory, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> at the end of last session. In his veto message, Newsom expressed concern that the bill could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, state Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, introduced \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB867\">Senate Bill 867\u003c/a>, which would establish a first-in-the-nation four-year moratorium on the sale and manufacture of toys with AI chatbots embedded in them, “until manufacturers have worked out the dangers embedded in them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to put the brakes on AI toys until they are proven safe for kids,” Padilla wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Three voice-activated, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI-powered\u003c/a> toys tested by Common Sense Media researchers raised concerns that they were designed to engineer emotional attachment with young children and collect private data, according to the nonprofit’s report released Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The warning is the latest in a string from consumer advocates about the risks posed to children by artificial intelligence, including in the form of toys like stuffed animals or brightly colored plastic robots that act as chatbots, conversing and telling stories to children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unlike traditional toys, these devices present a range of new harms,” Common Sense Media researchers wrote in their \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/ai-toys\">report\u003c/a>, which tested the Grem, Bondu and Miko 3 toys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The children’s advocacy group recommended that parents not give AI companion toys to children 5 and younger, and it warned parents to exercise “extreme caution” even with children 6 to 13 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the group’s December survey of 1,004 parents of children ranging from infants to age 8, nearly half of parents have purchased or are considering purchasing these toys or similar ones for their children. The products are sold by major retailers like Walmart, Costco, Amazon and Target. One in 6 parents told Common Sense they have already purchased one, and 10% said they “definitely plan to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070893\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070893\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hyodol, the world’s first AI-based companion robot dolls, are being exhibited in the South Korean pavilion at the Mobile World Congress 2024 in Barcelona, Spain, on April 2, 2024. Created by a South Korean company, these dolls are designed to serve as social companions for the elderly and have been commercialized in several countries.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Common Sense Media is not usually in the business of saying, don’t use technology entirely,” said Robbie Torney, head of AI & digital assessments for Common Sense Media. “We really want to trust parents and empower them to make the best choices for their kids. But for under-5 children in particular, our testing showed a set of risks that are really a big developmental mismatch for where these young children are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media researchers tested the toys by creating child accounts for “users” ages 6 to 13, putting them through both everyday use and sensitive scenarios. Their team, including child development experts, evaluated everything from voice recognition and content accuracy to privacy practices, parental controls and whether the toys’ responses were developmentally appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though the toys are marketed as educational, more than a quarter of their responses in testing weren’t child-appropriate, the Common Sense report found. They included problematic content related to drugs, sex and risky activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our testing did show that these companies have put tremendous effort into guardrailing their chatbots,” Torney said. But “chatbots don’t understand context. They can’t make determinations about what a child actually means. If you ask about self-harm and then ask for dangerous chemicals, many of these devices will refuse the self-harm question, but won’t make the connection that dangerous chemicals might enable self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ritvik Sharma, chief growth officer at Miko, based in Mumbai, India, wrote that “child safety, privacy, and healthy development are foundational design requirements — not afterthoughts.” He also said the company was unable to reproduce the behaviors cited by Common Sense Media researchers “under normal operation,” sharing videos that showed Miko redirecting away from potentially problematic questions.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Miko’s conversational experience is powered by a proprietary, child-focused AI system developed specifically for young users, rather than adapted from general-purpose AI models,” Sharma added. “This allows us to evaluate responses for age suitability, emotional tone, and educational value before they reach a child.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, a spokesperson from Redwood-City-based Curio Interactive, which makes Grem, said the company’s toys “are designed with parent permission and control at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over a two-year beta period, we worked with approximately 2,000 families to develop a multi-tiered safety system that combines constrained conversational scope, age-appropriate design, layered filtering and refusal mechanisms, and continuous real-world monitoring, with safeguards enforced at multiple points in the interaction,” the spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Torney said parents need to ask themselves how much they trust the internet-connected companions not to cross developmentally appropriate lines into psychologically damaging territory when there’s no meaningful product safety regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the characteristics of under-5 children is that they have magical thinking, and what’s sometimes referred to as animism, the belief that objects may be real. They think about them differently than older children do,” Torney said. He acknowledged magical thinking can continue into later childhood as well, “which is why we’re still encouraging that extreme caution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Common Sense Media report comes after an \u003ca href=\"https://fairplayforkids.org/pf/aitoyadvisory\">advisory published in November\u003c/a> by the children’s advocacy group Fairplay strongly urged parents not to buy AI toys during the holiday season. The advisory was signed by more than 150 organizations, child psychiatrists and educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the new AI toys react contingently to young children,” wrote UC Berkeley professor Fei Xu, who directs the Berkeley Early Learning Lab. “That is, when a child says something, the AI toy says something back; if a child waves at the AI toy, it moves. This kind of social contingency is known to be very important for early social, emotional and language development. This raises the potential issue of young children being emotionally attached to these AI toys. More research is urgently needed to study this systematically.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to be exceptionally cautious when introducing understudied technologies with young children, whose biological and emotional minds are very vulnerable,” UCSF psychiatry and pediatrics professor Dr. Nicole Bush wrote. “While AI has the capacity for tremendous benefit to society, young children’s time is better spent with trusted adults and peers, or in constructive play or learning activities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1484px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070888\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1484\" height=\"492\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png 1484w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5-160x53.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1484px) 100vw, 1484px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A chat between a Common Sense Media tester and Miko 3, an AI toy. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, Common Sense Media and OpenAI announced they’re backing a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">consolidated effort\u003c/a> to put a measure on this November’s ballot in California that would institute AI chatbot guardrails for children. That effort is now in the signature-gathering stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A legislative measure that Common Sense backed, covering much of the same territory, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> at the end of last session. In his veto message, Newsom expressed concern that the bill could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, state Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, introduced \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB867\">Senate Bill 867\u003c/a>, which would establish a first-in-the-nation four-year moratorium on the sale and manufacture of toys with AI chatbots embedded in them, “until manufacturers have worked out the dangers embedded in them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to put the brakes on AI toys until they are proven safe for kids,” Padilla wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "a-generation-orphaned-by-war-ukrainian-children-grow-up-amid-loss-and-recovery",
"title": "A Generation Orphaned by War: Ukrainian Children Grow Up Amid Loss and Recovery",
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"headTitle": "A Generation Orphaned by War: Ukrainian Children Grow Up Amid Loss and Recovery | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://Tune%20in%20to%20Forum%20to%20understand%20how%20the%20war%20in%20Ukraine%20is%20shaping%20lives%20%E2%80%94%20and%20the%20future.\">\u003cem>Listen to the Jan. 22 edition of Forum to understand how the war in Ukraine is shaping lives — and the future\u003c/em>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kyiv, Ukraine — They say time helps to heal, but months have passed, and Alina Skytsko still struggles to talk about Nov. 2, 2024 — the day her mother was killed in the Russian shelling of Kherson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were nine explosions that night. Alina, her two cousins and her mother were hiding in a bathroom in Alina’s grandmother’s house when, in a flash, everything was covered in dirt and dust. Wounded in both legs, the 16-year-old shielded her mother, not realizing she had already died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly four years after Russia’s invasion, which reached its anniversary in February, thousands of children in Ukraine have been orphaned, many wounded, displaced or thrust into adult roles as caregivers and witnesses. As the fighting drags on, their lives unfold across hospitals, courtrooms and temporary homes, revealing the long-term human cost of the conflict far from the front lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This reporting draws on interviews with orphaned Ukrainian children in Kyiv, Odesa and Uzhhorod, many of whom witnessed their mothers being killed by Russian forces. From Kherson to Kramatorsk to Mariupol, their lives trace the war’s long aftershocks — a generation forced to recover, testify and raise siblings long before adulthood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Russian forces have also been accused of forcibly removing Ukrainian children from occupied territories and transferring them to Russia or Russia-controlled areas. Researchers at the Yale School of Medicine’s Humanitarian Research Lab say more than 19,000 Ukrainian children have been deported, with just over 1,200 returned, and warn the true number may be higher. The lab has documented thousands of children placed in institutions, foster care or adoptive families, often cut off from Ukrainian language and identity, as relatives search for them across borders and through courts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070607\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12070607 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An orphan boy hugs a soft toy as he waits on a train after fleeing the town of Polohy, which has come under Russian control, before evacuating on a train from Zaporizhzhia to western Ukraine, on March 26, 2022, in Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine. \u003ccite>(Chris McGrath/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Alina is one of about 2,000 Ukrainian children orphaned by the war, according to SOS Children’s Villages, a Vienna-based nongovernmental nonprofit that supports children without parental care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alina’s recovery and rehabilitation remain long and difficult. Books and online school classes no longer interest her. Both of her legs are skin and bones from the injuries. Another surgery is scheduled soon at Ukraine’s largest children’s hospital, Okhmatdyt. On New Year’s Eve, she wished the war would end, that she would walk again and maybe return to her war-torn hometown on the Black Sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We met Alina on her hospital ward in September. The night before the interview, she said she woke to the howling air-raid sirens. Her father helped her into a wheelchair, and they took the elevator to the basement. Hospital staff treat air alerts seriously, after the Russian missile strike in July 2024 destroyed several Okhmatdyt buildings, killing two people and injuring 16.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alina said her wounds were painful. A nerve was damaged in her right leg, and shrapnel tore a piece of muscle from it. Her shoulder was still sore and might also require surgery. A metal plate had been removed from her right arm. She had dyed her hair purple.[aside postID=news_12066997 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/UkraineGetty1.jpg']“That is life now. It’s hard to think of the future,” Alina said, shaking her head. She is relearning to walk on her thin, wounded legs, one step at a time. She wrote “loser” on her cast, then corrected “s” to “v.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Questions about the future annoy her. There was only one thing that clearly made her happy, she said: music. “I am a music lover. Music helps. I prefer rap — the heavier the better,” she told us with a modest smile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In November, hospital volunteer Natalia Zabolotna helped arrange Alina’s monthlong rehabilitation at the Koziavkin center in Truskavets, where Alina took her first steps. Wearing a hat with two furry ears, she likes to sit outside in her wheelchair, scrolling through social media or enjoying the rare sunshine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Alina hopes she will be able to walk better after the next surgery,” Zabolotna said in an interview. “We offered Alina psychological aid, but she firmly rejected it. For now, Alina sees the world mostly out of the hospital window.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sixteen-year-old Kateryna Iorhu knows what Alina is going through. She was wounded in a Russian bombing and witnessed her mother’s death on April 8, 2022, when a ballistic missile with a cluster munition warhead exploded over a train station in Kramatorsk, according to a Human Rights Watch report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kateryna, who goes by Katia, and her sister, Yulia, keep a picture of their smiling mother holding a plastic cup of tea, taken minutes before the blast as they waited for an evacuation train. The explosion killed and wounded dozens. Katia tried to crawl to her mother across ground covered with victims’ bodies, but could not — she was badly wounded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For weeks, Katia would not talk to anybody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070589\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070589\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/KatiaUkraineGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/KatiaUkraineGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/KatiaUkraineGetty-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/KatiaUkraineGetty-1536x1109.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hospital patient Kateryna Iorhu from Druzhkivka, Donetsk region, during the celebration of the 130th anniversary of the National Children’s Specialized Hospital “Okhmatdyt,” Kyiv. \u003ccite>(Volodymyr Tarasov/Ukrinform/Future Publishing via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I totally understand Alina not wanting to talk to a psychologist about her loss, her wounds,” she said. “But she should know that at some point it helps to make friends with the right psychologist, who she’d be able to watch animations with or discuss books, or play and chat about everything.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Specialists said the details of such tragedies may fade over time. “We try not to bother the orphans until they are willing to speak with us,” said Valentyna Lutsenko, a senior doctor at Okhmatdyt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lutsenko met Katia and Yulia in 2022, months after their mother was killed. Katia did not speak then. She moved through the hospital in a wheelchair or sat in her ward making bracelets of beads for doctors and nurses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We later met with the sisters in Kyiv’s Botanical Garden with their aunt and grandmother. With help from volunteers and private donors, Katia and Yulia, 11, live in a rented three-room apartment. Katia attends a design college in Kyiv, where she studies composition and painting and she ranks at the top of her class. Painting calms her, she said.[aside postID=news_12047685 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/UkraineMahjong1.jpg']But fear returns at night. “We don’t have a bomb shelter near our house, so we were just sitting on the floor in the corridor all night,” Katia said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since losing their mother, Yulia has spent hours online playing Roblox. To get Yulia away from screens, the family enrolled her in aikido classes. “Right now, it’s too slippery to go out — the roads are covered in ice — and we also have bad nights of shelling,” Katia said in an interview earlier this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Programs and safe spaces outside the home, such as those offered by the Chabad Orphanage in Odesa, provide support for children coping with trauma. When we visited the Mishpacha Children’s Home, a Chabad-run institution that provides care for Jewish orphans in late September, Chaya Wolff, Mishpacha’s director, was playing with children on the playground, then mediated a dispute among teenagers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Children from across Ukraine come to the orphanage to learn Hebrew, observe Shabbat customs and live as siblings. Two children, ages 2 and 4, chased each other on the playground. According to Wolff, their father had nearly killed their mother after returning from the front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their sister Sarah left this month to attend school in Israel. “Hopefully, the war in Israel is over soon,” Sarah, 16, said. “My parents abandoned me when I was 5. I feel for the children who lost their parents in this war in Ukraine. One day, I hope to become a teacher here and help Ukrainian children learn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For some Ukrainian children, the war has meant not only the loss of parents, but also being uprooted and taken far from home by Russian forces. Ilya Matviyenko was 10 when his mother, Natalia, was mortally wounded during shelling in Mariupol in southeastern Ukraine on March 20, 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070612\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070612\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine4.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine4.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine4-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine4-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Civilians gather at the train station to be evacuated from combat zones in Kramatorsk, Donetsk Oblast, in eastern Ukraine on April 6, 2022. Civilians search to board the first available train headed west. \u003ccite>(Andrea Carrubba/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We were walking across our courtyard when a missile blew up nearby. We were both badly wounded,” Ilya told us during a September interview in Uzhhorod in Western Ukraine, the city he now calls home. “I believe that many more people should know what happened to us.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His mother pulled him into a neighbor’s house. There was no hospital or doctor nearby. Ilya held his mother, listening to her hoarse breathing. She died in his arms and was buried in the yard the next morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ilya suffered wounds to his hip and legs. Russian forces took him across the front line to Russia-occupied Donetsk, where he spent nearly a month alone in a hospital. His grandmother, Olena, traveled through four countries to bring Ilya to Kyiv, carrying him out because he was too weak to walk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weeks later, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky visited Ilya at Okhmatdyt and gave him an iPad. His case drew attention as one of the first Ukrainian children to be returned from occupied territory after Russia’s full-scale invasion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine3-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine3-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view of the scene after over 30 people were killed and more than 100 injured in a Russian attack on a railway station in eastern Ukraine on April 8, 2022. Two rockets hit a station in Kramatorsk, a city in the Donetsk region, where scores of people were waiting to be evacuated to safer areas, according to Ukrainian Railways. \u003ccite>(Andrea Carrubba/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Ilya now calls his new role “diplomatic.” He and his grandmother have traveled across Europe and to the United States. The war, his loss and his wounds have made him seem older than his years. Now 13, Ilya has new friends in Uzhhorod. They play in the courtyard, and Ilya likes football.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My friend Eldar already has a mustache — me too. I’m 5 feet tall, already taller than my grandmother,” he said proudly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ilya was among the orphans who testified at the International Court of Justice in The Hague, telling the world about atrocities in Ukraine. He told us he hoped to meet with President Donald Trump later this year. He sees his role as an “ambassador for Ukrainian children” wounded or orphaned in the war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s a major mission, but I’m not getting carried away,” he said. “I’m just doing what needs to be done. I think it’s important to share this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Elsewhere in Uzhhorod, near the banks of the Tysa River, there is a popular cafe called Lypa. We met there with Viacheslav Yalov, 21, and his three siblings in September.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067007\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067007\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Viacheslav Yalov, second from left, poses with three of his siblings — from left, Olivia, Nicole and Tymur. After losing their mother to a Russian shelling in Donetsk when he was 18, Viacheslav became the legal guardian of his four younger siblings. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mykhailo Melnychenko)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Viacheslav’smother died from injuries sustained during shelling in the town of Verkhniotoretske in the Donetsk region in March 2022. She was 37. Viacheslav, who was 18 at the time, was left to care for his four younger brothers and sisters. He managed to evacuate himself and the children as the town came under attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His struggle did not end there. Viacheslav went through several court proceedings to win custody of his siblings. “Because the most important thing for me was to keep my family together. I’m doing this for our mother. She always did everything and anything for us,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After fleeing the Donetsk region, the family moved through Lviv, Kyiv and Dnipro, and finally Uzhhorod. For now, it is the safest place in the country, and Viacheslav works to protect his siblings’ sense of peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His brother, Danil, is now over 18 and studies in Kyiv. Viacheslav cares for the younger three: sisters Nicole and Olivia and brother Timur.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067008\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067008\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_1-scaled-e1765582964804.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Viacheslav Yalov hugs his sister, Olivia, one of the four siblings he has cared for since their mother was killed in a Russian shelling in Donetsk. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mykhailo Melnychenko)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Nicole loves dancing, especially jazz and funk, but said she wants to become a lawyer. Olivia plays the piano and has learned \u003cem>The Pink Panther\u003c/em> and several Michael Jackson songs. Viacheslav plans to enroll Timur in robotics classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before the invasion, Viacheslav studied medicine and completed two of three years of training to become a paramedic. He now works several jobs to support his family and volunteers with a charity, but his focus remains on his siblings. They have lunch together once a week. On Sundays, they share what they didn’t have time to talk about during the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They are all I have, and they are my motivation to keep going,” he said, gesturing to his siblings as they ate pastries and fruit tea. “Times are tough for everyone right now. There’s no time to sit around and complain.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I want the best not only for myself, but also for others,” he continued. “Ukraine will need to be rebuilt. The country will need young people who want to do something.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Maria Kostenko is a freelance journalist who has worked with CNN since the early days of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, researching and reporting on the war. She and the CNN Worldwide Ukraine team received the Dupont Columbia Award for broadcast, documentary and online journalism. She is an \u003c/em>\u003cem>International Women’s Media Foundation\u003c/em>\u003cem> grantee this year.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Anna Nemtsova is The Daily Beast’s Eastern Europe correspondent and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. Her Ukraine reporting has also appeared in The Washington Post, Newsweek, Rolling Stone, USA Today and Politico. She is a recipient of the Persephone Miel Fellowship and the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Courage in Journalism Award, and is an IWMF grantee this year.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://Tune%20in%20to%20Forum%20to%20understand%20how%20the%20war%20in%20Ukraine%20is%20shaping%20lives%20%E2%80%94%20and%20the%20future.\">\u003cem>Listen to the Jan. 22 edition of Forum to understand how the war in Ukraine is shaping lives — and the future\u003c/em>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kyiv, Ukraine — They say time helps to heal, but months have passed, and Alina Skytsko still struggles to talk about Nov. 2, 2024 — the day her mother was killed in the Russian shelling of Kherson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were nine explosions that night. Alina, her two cousins and her mother were hiding in a bathroom in Alina’s grandmother’s house when, in a flash, everything was covered in dirt and dust. Wounded in both legs, the 16-year-old shielded her mother, not realizing she had already died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly four years after Russia’s invasion, which reached its anniversary in February, thousands of children in Ukraine have been orphaned, many wounded, displaced or thrust into adult roles as caregivers and witnesses. As the fighting drags on, their lives unfold across hospitals, courtrooms and temporary homes, revealing the long-term human cost of the conflict far from the front lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This reporting draws on interviews with orphaned Ukrainian children in Kyiv, Odesa and Uzhhorod, many of whom witnessed their mothers being killed by Russian forces. From Kherson to Kramatorsk to Mariupol, their lives trace the war’s long aftershocks — a generation forced to recover, testify and raise siblings long before adulthood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Russian forces have also been accused of forcibly removing Ukrainian children from occupied territories and transferring them to Russia or Russia-controlled areas. Researchers at the Yale School of Medicine’s Humanitarian Research Lab say more than 19,000 Ukrainian children have been deported, with just over 1,200 returned, and warn the true number may be higher. The lab has documented thousands of children placed in institutions, foster care or adoptive families, often cut off from Ukrainian language and identity, as relatives search for them across borders and through courts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070607\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12070607 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An orphan boy hugs a soft toy as he waits on a train after fleeing the town of Polohy, which has come under Russian control, before evacuating on a train from Zaporizhzhia to western Ukraine, on March 26, 2022, in Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine. \u003ccite>(Chris McGrath/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Alina is one of about 2,000 Ukrainian children orphaned by the war, according to SOS Children’s Villages, a Vienna-based nongovernmental nonprofit that supports children without parental care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alina’s recovery and rehabilitation remain long and difficult. Books and online school classes no longer interest her. Both of her legs are skin and bones from the injuries. Another surgery is scheduled soon at Ukraine’s largest children’s hospital, Okhmatdyt. On New Year’s Eve, she wished the war would end, that she would walk again and maybe return to her war-torn hometown on the Black Sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We met Alina on her hospital ward in September. The night before the interview, she said she woke to the howling air-raid sirens. Her father helped her into a wheelchair, and they took the elevator to the basement. Hospital staff treat air alerts seriously, after the Russian missile strike in July 2024 destroyed several Okhmatdyt buildings, killing two people and injuring 16.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alina said her wounds were painful. A nerve was damaged in her right leg, and shrapnel tore a piece of muscle from it. Her shoulder was still sore and might also require surgery. A metal plate had been removed from her right arm. She had dyed her hair purple.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“That is life now. It’s hard to think of the future,” Alina said, shaking her head. She is relearning to walk on her thin, wounded legs, one step at a time. She wrote “loser” on her cast, then corrected “s” to “v.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Questions about the future annoy her. There was only one thing that clearly made her happy, she said: music. “I am a music lover. Music helps. I prefer rap — the heavier the better,” she told us with a modest smile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In November, hospital volunteer Natalia Zabolotna helped arrange Alina’s monthlong rehabilitation at the Koziavkin center in Truskavets, where Alina took her first steps. Wearing a hat with two furry ears, she likes to sit outside in her wheelchair, scrolling through social media or enjoying the rare sunshine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Alina hopes she will be able to walk better after the next surgery,” Zabolotna said in an interview. “We offered Alina psychological aid, but she firmly rejected it. For now, Alina sees the world mostly out of the hospital window.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sixteen-year-old Kateryna Iorhu knows what Alina is going through. She was wounded in a Russian bombing and witnessed her mother’s death on April 8, 2022, when a ballistic missile with a cluster munition warhead exploded over a train station in Kramatorsk, according to a Human Rights Watch report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kateryna, who goes by Katia, and her sister, Yulia, keep a picture of their smiling mother holding a plastic cup of tea, taken minutes before the blast as they waited for an evacuation train. The explosion killed and wounded dozens. Katia tried to crawl to her mother across ground covered with victims’ bodies, but could not — she was badly wounded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For weeks, Katia would not talk to anybody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070589\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070589\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/KatiaUkraineGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/KatiaUkraineGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/KatiaUkraineGetty-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/KatiaUkraineGetty-1536x1109.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hospital patient Kateryna Iorhu from Druzhkivka, Donetsk region, during the celebration of the 130th anniversary of the National Children’s Specialized Hospital “Okhmatdyt,” Kyiv. \u003ccite>(Volodymyr Tarasov/Ukrinform/Future Publishing via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I totally understand Alina not wanting to talk to a psychologist about her loss, her wounds,” she said. “But she should know that at some point it helps to make friends with the right psychologist, who she’d be able to watch animations with or discuss books, or play and chat about everything.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Specialists said the details of such tragedies may fade over time. “We try not to bother the orphans until they are willing to speak with us,” said Valentyna Lutsenko, a senior doctor at Okhmatdyt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lutsenko met Katia and Yulia in 2022, months after their mother was killed. Katia did not speak then. She moved through the hospital in a wheelchair or sat in her ward making bracelets of beads for doctors and nurses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We later met with the sisters in Kyiv’s Botanical Garden with their aunt and grandmother. With help from volunteers and private donors, Katia and Yulia, 11, live in a rented three-room apartment. Katia attends a design college in Kyiv, where she studies composition and painting and she ranks at the top of her class. Painting calms her, she said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>But fear returns at night. “We don’t have a bomb shelter near our house, so we were just sitting on the floor in the corridor all night,” Katia said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since losing their mother, Yulia has spent hours online playing Roblox. To get Yulia away from screens, the family enrolled her in aikido classes. “Right now, it’s too slippery to go out — the roads are covered in ice — and we also have bad nights of shelling,” Katia said in an interview earlier this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Programs and safe spaces outside the home, such as those offered by the Chabad Orphanage in Odesa, provide support for children coping with trauma. When we visited the Mishpacha Children’s Home, a Chabad-run institution that provides care for Jewish orphans in late September, Chaya Wolff, Mishpacha’s director, was playing with children on the playground, then mediated a dispute among teenagers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Children from across Ukraine come to the orphanage to learn Hebrew, observe Shabbat customs and live as siblings. Two children, ages 2 and 4, chased each other on the playground. According to Wolff, their father had nearly killed their mother after returning from the front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their sister Sarah left this month to attend school in Israel. “Hopefully, the war in Israel is over soon,” Sarah, 16, said. “My parents abandoned me when I was 5. I feel for the children who lost their parents in this war in Ukraine. One day, I hope to become a teacher here and help Ukrainian children learn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For some Ukrainian children, the war has meant not only the loss of parents, but also being uprooted and taken far from home by Russian forces. Ilya Matviyenko was 10 when his mother, Natalia, was mortally wounded during shelling in Mariupol in southeastern Ukraine on March 20, 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070612\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070612\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine4.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine4.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine4-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine4-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Civilians gather at the train station to be evacuated from combat zones in Kramatorsk, Donetsk Oblast, in eastern Ukraine on April 6, 2022. Civilians search to board the first available train headed west. \u003ccite>(Andrea Carrubba/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We were walking across our courtyard when a missile blew up nearby. We were both badly wounded,” Ilya told us during a September interview in Uzhhorod in Western Ukraine, the city he now calls home. “I believe that many more people should know what happened to us.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His mother pulled him into a neighbor’s house. There was no hospital or doctor nearby. Ilya held his mother, listening to her hoarse breathing. She died in his arms and was buried in the yard the next morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ilya suffered wounds to his hip and legs. Russian forces took him across the front line to Russia-occupied Donetsk, where he spent nearly a month alone in a hospital. His grandmother, Olena, traveled through four countries to bring Ilya to Kyiv, carrying him out because he was too weak to walk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weeks later, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky visited Ilya at Okhmatdyt and gave him an iPad. His case drew attention as one of the first Ukrainian children to be returned from occupied territory after Russia’s full-scale invasion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine3-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/Ukraine3-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view of the scene after over 30 people were killed and more than 100 injured in a Russian attack on a railway station in eastern Ukraine on April 8, 2022. Two rockets hit a station in Kramatorsk, a city in the Donetsk region, where scores of people were waiting to be evacuated to safer areas, according to Ukrainian Railways. \u003ccite>(Andrea Carrubba/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Ilya now calls his new role “diplomatic.” He and his grandmother have traveled across Europe and to the United States. The war, his loss and his wounds have made him seem older than his years. Now 13, Ilya has new friends in Uzhhorod. They play in the courtyard, and Ilya likes football.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My friend Eldar already has a mustache — me too. I’m 5 feet tall, already taller than my grandmother,” he said proudly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ilya was among the orphans who testified at the International Court of Justice in The Hague, telling the world about atrocities in Ukraine. He told us he hoped to meet with President Donald Trump later this year. He sees his role as an “ambassador for Ukrainian children” wounded or orphaned in the war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s a major mission, but I’m not getting carried away,” he said. “I’m just doing what needs to be done. I think it’s important to share this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Elsewhere in Uzhhorod, near the banks of the Tysa River, there is a popular cafe called Lypa. We met there with Viacheslav Yalov, 21, and his three siblings in September.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067007\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067007\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Viacheslav Yalov, second from left, poses with three of his siblings — from left, Olivia, Nicole and Tymur. After losing their mother to a Russian shelling in Donetsk when he was 18, Viacheslav became the legal guardian of his four younger siblings. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mykhailo Melnychenko)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Viacheslav’smother died from injuries sustained during shelling in the town of Verkhniotoretske in the Donetsk region in March 2022. She was 37. Viacheslav, who was 18 at the time, was left to care for his four younger brothers and sisters. He managed to evacuate himself and the children as the town came under attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His struggle did not end there. Viacheslav went through several court proceedings to win custody of his siblings. “Because the most important thing for me was to keep my family together. I’m doing this for our mother. She always did everything and anything for us,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After fleeing the Donetsk region, the family moved through Lviv, Kyiv and Dnipro, and finally Uzhhorod. For now, it is the safest place in the country, and Viacheslav works to protect his siblings’ sense of peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His brother, Danil, is now over 18 and studies in Kyiv. Viacheslav cares for the younger three: sisters Nicole and Olivia and brother Timur.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067008\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067008\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/Viacheslav_Yalov_1-scaled-e1765582964804.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Viacheslav Yalov hugs his sister, Olivia, one of the four siblings he has cared for since their mother was killed in a Russian shelling in Donetsk. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mykhailo Melnychenko)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Nicole loves dancing, especially jazz and funk, but said she wants to become a lawyer. Olivia plays the piano and has learned \u003cem>The Pink Panther\u003c/em> and several Michael Jackson songs. Viacheslav plans to enroll Timur in robotics classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before the invasion, Viacheslav studied medicine and completed two of three years of training to become a paramedic. He now works several jobs to support his family and volunteers with a charity, but his focus remains on his siblings. They have lunch together once a week. On Sundays, they share what they didn’t have time to talk about during the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They are all I have, and they are my motivation to keep going,” he said, gesturing to his siblings as they ate pastries and fruit tea. “Times are tough for everyone right now. There’s no time to sit around and complain.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I want the best not only for myself, but also for others,” he continued. “Ukraine will need to be rebuilt. The country will need young people who want to do something.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Maria Kostenko is a freelance journalist who has worked with CNN since the early days of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, researching and reporting on the war. She and the CNN Worldwide Ukraine team received the Dupont Columbia Award for broadcast, documentary and online journalism. She is an \u003c/em>\u003cem>International Women’s Media Foundation\u003c/em>\u003cem> grantee this year.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Anna Nemtsova is The Daily Beast’s Eastern Europe correspondent and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. Her Ukraine reporting has also appeared in The Washington Post, Newsweek, Rolling Stone, USA Today and Politico. She is a recipient of the Persephone Miel Fellowship and the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Courage in Journalism Award, and is an IWMF grantee this year.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "What Happened to Purple Moon Games for Girls?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirty years ago, video games were predominantly marketed to boys. Nintendo and Sega ran TV ads featuring boys proclaiming how “awesome” and “powerful” the latest system was. And the biggest computer games tended to revolve around male-coded activities like shooting or combat. But in the late ‘90s, a small indie game studio called Purple Moon set out to change that — creating story-rich, emotionally complex games designed to welcome girls into the world of computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva looks back on her own childhood experience with Purple Moon and talks with founder Brenda Laurel about the company’s legacy, its impact on girls in tech, and how it all came to an abrupt end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Editor’s note: We updated one line to add context about a character in one of the Purple Moon games, which may affect how the character is understood.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6059143811\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://neogaian.org/wp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, interactive games designer, creator and founder of Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/girl-games-90s-fun-feminist/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Girl Games’ of the ’90s Were Fun and Feminist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Drew Dakessian, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/conscious-ux-leading-human-centered-design-in-the-age-of-ai-designing-the-future-of-artificial-intelligence-with-compassion-inclusion-and-openness_brenda-laurel_rikki-teeters/56629353/#edition=74110991&idiq=86310248\">Conscious UX: Leading Human-Centered Design in the Age of AI: Designing the Future of Artificial Intelligence with Compassion, Inclusion, and Openness \u003c/a>— Rikki Teeters, Don Norman, Brenda Laurel \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.si.edu/media/NMAH/NMAH-AC1498_Transcript_BrendaLaurel.pdf\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Weaver, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Smithsonian Institution, Lemelson Center for The Study of Invention and Innovation \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lifewire.com/women-in-video-games-11690645\">Trailblazing Women in Video Gaming: Meet the Pioneers Who Shaped Design History\u003c/a> — D.S. Cohen, \u003ci>Lifewire\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fighting over access to the family computer is a core childhood memory for Zillennials. Millennials too. I would spend hours on the living room PC playing games like Neopets and Club Penguin and Toontown. In the 90s and early 2000s, computer games from Oregon Trail to The Sims were super popular. But a lot of computer games were targeted toward young boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. That is, until Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon was an American developer of girls’ computer games based in Mountain View, California. The company was created in the 90s to disrupt the assumption that girls aren’t gamers. And it was really successful. In fact, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva played Purple Moon computer games all the time as a little girl. Until the company vanished completely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m passing this episode off to our producer Maya, who’s gonna take us back to the 90s, before the whole girls and stem push was a thing. We’re gonna check out Purple Moon when it was an upstart little game studio, when its founder had an entirely new vision for what computer games could be. And we’ll try to get to the bottom of what really happened to Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon\u003c/b>\u003cb> Intro: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My sister Olivia and I are watching a video on Youtube of our favorite computer game that we used to love as kids. From the 90s. This one is called the Starfire Soccer challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pass the ball, Fireflies! Please! Look, I’m begging you, pass! Would you please pass? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you remember any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We tried to find a way to actually play the games, but no luck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we can’t play them, but we can watch the videos. We can watch the YouTube replays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, like most old computer games, we’re stuck experiencing them vicariously through someone else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s out of the center. Pass it here. Pass it over here. I’m open. That means you Dana, pass the ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computer game follows the character Ginger and her teammates of the Fireflies soccer team as they prepare for the end-of-the-season game against their rival team, the Bulldogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fireflies, Fireflies, go team! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was younger, the game’s animation seems so advanced. But visually, it’s actually pretty basic. It looks like an interactive comic. The images flip like a storybook, and the characters’ mouths don’t move when they talk. It is effective though. Animated soccer players rush towards each other, dashing down a green field surrounded by rowdy fans. The sound design is really immersive too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Charla, you played really well today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh she’s so nice. So you learn how to be a good friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Starfire Soccer Challenge was just one of the games from Purple Moon. Purple Moon was a company that developed games targeted at young girls. They wanted to get girls into tech. And as a kid, I was obsessed with these games. They’re what got me into computer games in the first place. I still remember turning on my family’s PC in the basement, the humming sound of the computer starting up, and the excitement I felt putting the Purple Moon disk into the CD drive. Then the logo would play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just hearing that intro gets me excited. These games shaped how I connected with computers and gaming. They expanded my imagination and put me in scenarios where I could choose my own adventure, from competing to win the Starfire Soccer Championship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starfire soccer challenge! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To exploring trails and a magical forest. There was even a game called Adventure Maker, which allowed you to make up your own scenarios and scenes in the game. For that era, it was kind of a revolutionary idea, especially to have that kind of decision making geared towards young girls. In the 90s, gaming was definitely seen as a space for boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Super Nintendo Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you decide to step up to this kind of power, this kind of challenge, there’s only one place to come. The games of Super Nintendo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sega Genesis Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Young Bobby Angles has a problem. He needs to earn the respect of his peers. So he gets Sega Genesis, the ultimate action system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While young girls were primarily marketed Barbie games. Although I can’t lie, I did love this one Barbie fashion game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barbie Fashion Designer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Making clothes for me is really easy and fun. Let me show you around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another Barbie detective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Detective Barbie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re glad you’re here. You can help us find Ken. We’ve got a few tools that will help us do some super sleuthing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But mostly, these Barbie games felt like they were teaching us that girls should just love to dress up and to ride horses. With the Purple Moon computer games, I had a universe to play in that actually felt like it was for young girls. In one of the games, Secret Paths in the Forest, you learn about each character’s life and the insecurities and real traumas they were going through as teenage girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Secret Paths in The Forest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom’s gone, and now birthdays just aren’t the same anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved these games as a kid. And then, Purple Moon just stopped making new games. And without more games I could relate to, my love for gaming faded as I got older. So now, in my 30s and often nostalgic for my childhood, I got curious what happened to these games that had such an impact on me? And what did Purple Moon do for girl gamers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I did a little research. Let’s start with the first tab. Who created Purple Moon and where are they now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After some Googling, I was able to track down the creator of the Purple Moon computer games, Brenda Laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s always thrilling to meet someone whose lives were touched by the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda is in her 70s now and was a pioneer in the tech world. I wondered how hard it must have been to work in a male-dominated field in the 90s, especially creating games that weren’t meant for guys. So when she agreed to sit down with me for an interview, I geeked out a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I’ve mentioned, you know, I’ve been a big fan of the games since I was little, of all the Purple Moon games. Like all of these games were so important to me. I think also just in me becoming like a storyteller, too, because of just how the games were presented. You know, it’s so exciting for me to get to talk to you. I think my inner child is like, “oh my God!” Fan girling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it’s great. I think we we did get some things right about narrative and storytelling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda’s introduction to the gaming industry happened completely by chance. In the 70s, before she ever dreamt up Purple Moon, Brenda was studying theater at Ohio State University. That’s when one of her friends decided to start a personal computer company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was studying for my PhD generals looking for work and and they said, why don’t you come over and help us do some interactive fairy tales for this little machine with 2K of RAM? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This early tech was all new to Brenda, but she fell in love with it immediately. This same friend went on to create computer games through a company called Cybervision. Brenda’s experience in theater made her a perfect candidate for the type of games they were working on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was the period of time in the theater where actors were interacting with audiences in in productions like Hair and Dionysus in ’69. I had just directed uh uh pretty improvisational version of Robin Hood where the troupe went around and, you know, and kids would talk to them. And if an audience member suggested something, they would be required to change what they were doing to accommodate it. So it was kind of like a group improv. For me, that was a model that I could immediately and directly use in thinking about how to construct an interactive game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Working at Cybervision felt like a dream for Brenda. She got to combine her theatrical training with a newfound love of technology, all within a supportive workplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody was lovely. There wasn’t an a a drop of sexism anywhere. People were incredibly kind and smart and I treasured them all. So I was fortunate in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After working at Cybervision, she landed at Atari in the 1980s. Atari was a pioneering video game and computer company. They made some of the OG arcade hits like Pong and Space Invaders. This was the beginning of the tech boom and early tech innovation, and very much a boys club. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was extremely male dominated and there were subcultures of males inside of that culture that were even harder to deal with. You know, I had to, I remember my first day at Atari, I had to kick the boys out of the women’s room because that’s where they were smoking weed. And I said, you know what? There’s a woman in the house, I need to use the bathroom. Could you guys clear, you know? I learned to be pretty bitchy to great positive effect, I will add. Dropping the occasional F bomb at a at a staff meeting was always good for getting people’s attention in those days. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Atari, Brenda went on to work at various tech companies, including Activision and even Apple. But at almost every stop, Brenda felt like games were targeted for boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. So she began to ask herself — how could she get more girls interested in computers? That’s a new tab. How Purple Moon changed the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1992, Brenda got a job at Interval Research, a research and technology incubator. Brenda was able to convince management to do a study on girls and games. At the time, research showed that parents were much more likely to buy computers for boys than for girls, even if girls expressed interest. And female gamers in the 90s were only about 10 to 25% of the gaming population, depending on the country. So there was a large gap in computer literacy for young girls. Brenda wanted to learn why. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally speaking, you didn’t see little girls putting their hands on the machine because they would say, “I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake. I don’t want to touch it. It’s for boys.” So there were gender biases built into the way girls thought about how they might relate to technology. And our thinking as we spoke about it was as we move into a more technological world, they’ve got to get comfortable with it so that they have access to the power and help and joy, you know, that they might get from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, as we went out and started interviewing little girls, what we discovered was we couldn’t ask what’s your favorite computer game because there weren’t any for them, and they weren’t really playing. So we changed the question to how do girls and boys play and how is it different? What we learned in the course of talking with these girls is that it’s a hell of a hard time of life to be a tween girl. There’s all kinds of social stuff coming from the way women and girls relate to each other in same sex groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so they had issues, not just about technology, but about life that we were seeing, you know, writ large and everything they said didn’t matter what city we were in, we were hearing the same thing. “I feel like everything happens and I can’t do anything about it. I don’t know who I am yet. I don’t know how to help people. Oh, I wish I hadn’t made that decision.” You know, there’s a lot of negative stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after interviewing over a thousand young girls and about 500 young boys on their real life experiences navigating their pre-teen and teenage years, Brenda had an idea. What if she could develop a game that was entirely meant for young girls through their eyes? One that could have a positive impact on their lives. And so the idea for Purple Moon was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t easy to get into the computer gaming market with games geared for girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In those days, these boys games were sold to boys in stores that were frequented by boys and you know, you just weren’t gonna put it in front of a kid unless you could get it into a toy store or some other kind of retail establishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many hands helped launch Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure it takes a village, when I say my games or I designed this, I mean me and, you know, sixty other people who were sitting in the studio or we had wonderful writers and artists and thinkers and researchers and programmers. Uh so yeah, we worked together like a well-oiled machine, except when we didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon eventually became an independent company. The first Purple Moon game was released in 1997 and called Rockett’s New School. Visually, it had the same animated comic strip vibe as the other Purple Moon games that would come later. The game allows you to play as the character, Rockett Movado, on her first day of eighth grade at her new school. A PA announcement greets you as the game begins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome, students. It’s another fantastic year at Whistling Pines Junior High! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi. Listen, I’m sorry to just kind of intrude, but I’m pretty sure you’re new, right? Yeah, I am. My name’s Rockett. Wow, really? Well anyway, I’m Jessie. So you wanna walk in with me, Rockett? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea was with Rockett that you could make a choice. Something unfolds and you have a moment. How do I feel about this? We called it emotional navigation. And so you would click on thought bubbles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Venturing into the cafeteria scene alone could be fun. This is terrible. Not even a single friend to sit with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, I feel terrible, I want to cry. Why don’t I make up with her? Hey, maybe Charla can help. You pick one of those, the thing plays out. If you don’t like what happens, you can go back and change it and see what happens instead. So this kind of social and emotional flexibility is incredibly important to girls that age. And having a sense of personal agency and a sense that you can make choices that matter and change your mind. These are really important milestones in that hard journey from being a little girl to a teenager. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my mission sort of changed from a tech equity one to a how can I build something here, design something here that will help little girls have a better time in their lives and achieve greater self-esteem and feel the sense of personal agency coming to life. So that’s really why I did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that. I mean, that’s why I really think I love the game so much is because you also were able to choose your own adventure and kind of have autonomy with your choice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I think even even though I was so young, I still felt like I felt power you know, I felt empowered by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worked. It worked! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, I don’t think I realized how the ability to choose my own adventures in the Purple Moon games helped shape some of my decision making as a young girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the idea was not so much choose your own adventure, but choose your own response. Choose your path of navigation through this relatively complex social situation. I’m so proud that just about every scenario you see in any of those games comes from the girls we talk to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another way Purple Moon was way ahead of its time was with its website. Through it, they found entirely new ways to engage girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tools for making a website were not easily available. So putting that together, Christy Rosenthal led that team inside of Purple Moon and um was an astoundingly successful website. We were beating Disney.com for hits and dwell time for at least the first six months of our lives as a company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Yeah, I don’t think I ever went on the website. I just always had the CD-ROM games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a whole different world over there. You could write articles for the Whistling Pines newspaper and then we would, you know, incorporate ideas into the storyline. So we were having a kind of narrative conversation with girls on the web, getting ideas for what we might do in the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Purple Moon website was pretty popular, and one reporter for Wired described it as an online space where she could make friends and be herself. It was like an early social networking site just for girls, where they could send each other online postcards and learn about new characters. Like I mentioned earlier, the Purple Moon games weren’t exactly visually advanced. I asked Brenda what it was like to design these games with the limited technology of the 90s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were pretty much animated comic strips. And the reason for that was that we didn’t have the processing power to do good enough lip sync animation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And uh and the computers that were around that day. And we could never get it right. It would always lag just enough to make you crazy. I mean we really tried it, but we couldn’t get there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While a considerable amount of research went into making the Purple Moon games, not everyone liked the direction the games took. There were definitely some critics at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got blowback on these games both from men who thought they were stupid and from hardcore feminists who thought girls ought to behave differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll get into that. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time for a new tab. Purple moon gets pushback. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after the first Purple Moon game, Rockett’s New School was released, a reporter for the New York Times gave a scathing review. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The guy who reviewed the games in the New York Times thought they were just silly. Like, why would you care about who you’re going to be friends with in high school? You know, boys have a very different way of establishing social status in peer groups, generally speaking, we’re all, you know, we’re talking about averages, not everybody, but there’s a very different method. And so when a man looked at it, it’s like, what? Where’s the competition? You know, nobody’s shooting anybody. There are no monsters, no racing cars. What are you thinking? You know, it was that kind of stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it just delighted me. I thought, I have alienated the right person. One of our strategies here with the whole branding of the games as it evolved was to make sure that they gave boys cooties. We didn’t want boys to play them. The reason was that if your big brother played it and had the same response as the New York Times critic did and said, “this game is really lame”. You’d probably go, “Oh, I better not play it in front of John. ” You know, “oh, it’s not cool. I guess I shouldn’t do it.” That happens, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what we wanted was for to present something that girls said, “I own this. You know, I own this. And and you don’t get to tell me whether it’s any good or not.” So, we we made purple packaging, you know, we did all kinds of stuff to to alienate male players from picking it up and buying it because of that business of judgment coming from boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Male critics of the games didn’t surprise Brenda. What did surprise her was criticism from some women and feminists who didn’t like the games either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were silly ones and there were reasonably good ones. You know, there’s an issue about girls behaving in a way that’s considered to be badly. Um, Gossip, exclusion, breaking of affiliations. These are the ways that girls covertly establish their social position, generally speaking. Those are tools that girls and women use. So that was part of it. They didn’t see queer people. Well, in 1995, ’96, we weren’t talking about queer people eleven years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that that was a step too far. We didn’t have religion in the game either for the same reason. And it was just like stuff you didn’t talk about yet. Today, if I were doing it today, I would certainly deal with gender fluidity, with trans kids. I all of that stuff would come into play. But in in that period of time, that wasn’t possible. And yet, generally speaking, there was nothing but praise from women and educators and coaches and stuff like that. And and the sales were great. We were beating John Madden football for the first quarter that we were out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics also had issues with the research conducted to create Purple Moon. Some thought that the girls they interviewed may have already internalized gender stereotypes about what girls should like based on their age. They felt that Brenda and her team were just perpetuating the same gender tropes from their data. There was also criticism surrounding racial stereotypes in the games. One article I found stated that the game used cliches, quote, “such as the snobby popular blonde girl and the smart Asian with glasses.” Brenda felt differently about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I look at the games, I don’t see no racial stereotyping. And it certainly didn’t cause us to make any changes because, you know, we looked at it, we took it seriously, we evaluated it. And we came to the decision that it was incorrect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While watching the replay of my favorite game, the Starfire Soccer Challenge on YouTube, I did notice how Miko, one of the characters in the game who is Asian, is depicted as a Samurai with a sword as she runs down the soccer field. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re scared now. They’re intimidated. They’re ugh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll be honest, I cringed a bit at first at this image. But I later learned that the “Samurai Miko” character was actually designed by an Asian-American artist named Grace Chen, which definitely adds important context. While I don’t think the games are perfect, I do admire that Brenda and her team did extensive research with real young girls at the time to hear about what they were actually going through. And some articles stated that the Starfire Soccer Challenge game was beneficial. One even called it, quote, “an outstanding example of digital technology supporting positive emotional development.” I wonder what the games could look like now if they were created today. What would young girls, boys, or non-binary players desire to see in the games? And how could developers correct some of the cliches seen in the games in the 90s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They wouldn’t be the same. We might get to some of the same emotional and ethical places that we did in the original games. It would take a boatload of new research because just as those girls I interviewed weren’t me at 10, um, the girls today aren’t you. And we need to go out and talk to them, learn what their lives are like, you know, figure it out. And I’d be tempted the second time around to build a game for little boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda never got the opportunity to make a game for boys. In 1999, after only three years, the company folded. But why did this happen? That’s a new tab. What happened to Purple Moon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1999, Purple Moon’s biggest funder, Paul Allen, decided to shift his focus to the e-commerce sector, which was beginning to take off at the time. Ultimately, he decided to take his money out of Purple Moon. This had very serious consequences for the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got the news from the board that they were gonna shut us down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We we had eighty people expecting their paycheck that day. They had frozen our bank accounts. My CEO Nancy Deyo and I got in the car with the CFO. We remembered that we’d made a deposit on our office space with a different bank. So we got in the car, raced over there, took that money out in cash and gave everybody their pay. And they ended up selling the the company to Mattel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the board decided to shut Purple Moon down, Brenda and others were terminated from the company. Then, once Mattel bought the gaming studio, the Purple Moon games eventually stopped being created for good. Brenda was devastated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Took me about a year to recover personally from that. After we shut down the website, we put a goodbye message on the on the front so if you logged into it, it would say, “Hi, we’ve had to leave. We’re so sorry we’ll miss you. ” Well, it turns out that if you were already on the site, if you didn’t leave, if you just sort of kept that window open, your friends could come into the site and join. We had like 300 kids joining Purple Moon after it was shut down because they were sneaking into the side door of the website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though Purple Moon’s closure was bittersweet, Brenda felt that the company had accomplished what it set out to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely feel like we hit the goal of making games that would enrich and enhance the lives of little girls. I feel like it was, you know, act of love from all of us, um who worked on it creatively. And I feel like we succeeded. I know that because I hear from people like you who tell me this changed my life. That’s what we wanted to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, girls would have ended up getting literate with computers anyway, as soon as the internet became something you could actually get to uh easily. A lot of the “I’m afraid to put my hands on the keyboard” stuff went away. I mean, we probably helped with that transition. And it wasn’t very long until females were at least half, if not more than half, of of the audience on the web for everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda began envisioning Purple Moon at a time when computer games weren’t designed with girls in mind. Since the 90s, the percentage of female gamers has grown to 47% in the US. Brenda wouldn’t claim credit for that entire change, but it’s hard to deny Purple Moon’s influence on girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe my love for gaming started because the Purple Moon games felt accessible. And maybe it ended because CD-ROMs eventually became obsolete, and I never quite felt like the video game universe was meant for me. Whatever the case, the world of Purple Moon was a place I felt like I belonged, where I had agency. And for young Maya, that was everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Brenda. This was so great to get to talk to you. I feel like little Maya is so happy right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give little Maya a hug from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported and produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirty years ago, video games were predominantly marketed to boys. Nintendo and Sega ran TV ads featuring boys proclaiming how “awesome” and “powerful” the latest system was. And the biggest computer games tended to revolve around male-coded activities like shooting or combat. But in the late ‘90s, a small indie game studio called Purple Moon set out to change that — creating story-rich, emotionally complex games designed to welcome girls into the world of computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva looks back on her own childhood experience with Purple Moon and talks with founder Brenda Laurel about the company’s legacy, its impact on girls in tech, and how it all came to an abrupt end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Editor’s note: We updated one line to add context about a character in one of the Purple Moon games, which may affect how the character is understood.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6059143811\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://neogaian.org/wp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, interactive games designer, creator and founder of Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/girl-games-90s-fun-feminist/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Girl Games’ of the ’90s Were Fun and Feminist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Drew Dakessian, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/conscious-ux-leading-human-centered-design-in-the-age-of-ai-designing-the-future-of-artificial-intelligence-with-compassion-inclusion-and-openness_brenda-laurel_rikki-teeters/56629353/#edition=74110991&idiq=86310248\">Conscious UX: Leading Human-Centered Design in the Age of AI: Designing the Future of Artificial Intelligence with Compassion, Inclusion, and Openness \u003c/a>— Rikki Teeters, Don Norman, Brenda Laurel \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.si.edu/media/NMAH/NMAH-AC1498_Transcript_BrendaLaurel.pdf\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Weaver, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Smithsonian Institution, Lemelson Center for The Study of Invention and Innovation \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lifewire.com/women-in-video-games-11690645\">Trailblazing Women in Video Gaming: Meet the Pioneers Who Shaped Design History\u003c/a> — D.S. Cohen, \u003ci>Lifewire\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fighting over access to the family computer is a core childhood memory for Zillennials. Millennials too. I would spend hours on the living room PC playing games like Neopets and Club Penguin and Toontown. In the 90s and early 2000s, computer games from Oregon Trail to The Sims were super popular. But a lot of computer games were targeted toward young boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. That is, until Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon was an American developer of girls’ computer games based in Mountain View, California. The company was created in the 90s to disrupt the assumption that girls aren’t gamers. And it was really successful. In fact, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva played Purple Moon computer games all the time as a little girl. Until the company vanished completely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m passing this episode off to our producer Maya, who’s gonna take us back to the 90s, before the whole girls and stem push was a thing. We’re gonna check out Purple Moon when it was an upstart little game studio, when its founder had an entirely new vision for what computer games could be. And we’ll try to get to the bottom of what really happened to Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon\u003c/b>\u003cb> Intro: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My sister Olivia and I are watching a video on Youtube of our favorite computer game that we used to love as kids. From the 90s. This one is called the Starfire Soccer challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pass the ball, Fireflies! Please! Look, I’m begging you, pass! Would you please pass? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you remember any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We tried to find a way to actually play the games, but no luck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we can’t play them, but we can watch the videos. We can watch the YouTube replays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, like most old computer games, we’re stuck experiencing them vicariously through someone else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s out of the center. Pass it here. Pass it over here. I’m open. That means you Dana, pass the ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computer game follows the character Ginger and her teammates of the Fireflies soccer team as they prepare for the end-of-the-season game against their rival team, the Bulldogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fireflies, Fireflies, go team! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was younger, the game’s animation seems so advanced. But visually, it’s actually pretty basic. It looks like an interactive comic. The images flip like a storybook, and the characters’ mouths don’t move when they talk. It is effective though. Animated soccer players rush towards each other, dashing down a green field surrounded by rowdy fans. The sound design is really immersive too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Charla, you played really well today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh she’s so nice. So you learn how to be a good friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Starfire Soccer Challenge was just one of the games from Purple Moon. Purple Moon was a company that developed games targeted at young girls. They wanted to get girls into tech. And as a kid, I was obsessed with these games. They’re what got me into computer games in the first place. I still remember turning on my family’s PC in the basement, the humming sound of the computer starting up, and the excitement I felt putting the Purple Moon disk into the CD drive. Then the logo would play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just hearing that intro gets me excited. These games shaped how I connected with computers and gaming. They expanded my imagination and put me in scenarios where I could choose my own adventure, from competing to win the Starfire Soccer Championship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starfire soccer challenge! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To exploring trails and a magical forest. There was even a game called Adventure Maker, which allowed you to make up your own scenarios and scenes in the game. For that era, it was kind of a revolutionary idea, especially to have that kind of decision making geared towards young girls. In the 90s, gaming was definitely seen as a space for boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Super Nintendo Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you decide to step up to this kind of power, this kind of challenge, there’s only one place to come. The games of Super Nintendo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sega Genesis Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Young Bobby Angles has a problem. He needs to earn the respect of his peers. So he gets Sega Genesis, the ultimate action system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While young girls were primarily marketed Barbie games. Although I can’t lie, I did love this one Barbie fashion game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barbie Fashion Designer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Making clothes for me is really easy and fun. Let me show you around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another Barbie detective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Detective Barbie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re glad you’re here. You can help us find Ken. We’ve got a few tools that will help us do some super sleuthing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But mostly, these Barbie games felt like they were teaching us that girls should just love to dress up and to ride horses. With the Purple Moon computer games, I had a universe to play in that actually felt like it was for young girls. In one of the games, Secret Paths in the Forest, you learn about each character’s life and the insecurities and real traumas they were going through as teenage girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Secret Paths in The Forest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom’s gone, and now birthdays just aren’t the same anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved these games as a kid. And then, Purple Moon just stopped making new games. And without more games I could relate to, my love for gaming faded as I got older. So now, in my 30s and often nostalgic for my childhood, I got curious what happened to these games that had such an impact on me? And what did Purple Moon do for girl gamers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I did a little research. Let’s start with the first tab. Who created Purple Moon and where are they now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After some Googling, I was able to track down the creator of the Purple Moon computer games, Brenda Laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s always thrilling to meet someone whose lives were touched by the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda is in her 70s now and was a pioneer in the tech world. I wondered how hard it must have been to work in a male-dominated field in the 90s, especially creating games that weren’t meant for guys. So when she agreed to sit down with me for an interview, I geeked out a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I’ve mentioned, you know, I’ve been a big fan of the games since I was little, of all the Purple Moon games. Like all of these games were so important to me. I think also just in me becoming like a storyteller, too, because of just how the games were presented. You know, it’s so exciting for me to get to talk to you. I think my inner child is like, “oh my God!” Fan girling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it’s great. I think we we did get some things right about narrative and storytelling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda’s introduction to the gaming industry happened completely by chance. In the 70s, before she ever dreamt up Purple Moon, Brenda was studying theater at Ohio State University. That’s when one of her friends decided to start a personal computer company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was studying for my PhD generals looking for work and and they said, why don’t you come over and help us do some interactive fairy tales for this little machine with 2K of RAM? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This early tech was all new to Brenda, but she fell in love with it immediately. This same friend went on to create computer games through a company called Cybervision. Brenda’s experience in theater made her a perfect candidate for the type of games they were working on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was the period of time in the theater where actors were interacting with audiences in in productions like Hair and Dionysus in ’69. I had just directed uh uh pretty improvisational version of Robin Hood where the troupe went around and, you know, and kids would talk to them. And if an audience member suggested something, they would be required to change what they were doing to accommodate it. So it was kind of like a group improv. For me, that was a model that I could immediately and directly use in thinking about how to construct an interactive game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Working at Cybervision felt like a dream for Brenda. She got to combine her theatrical training with a newfound love of technology, all within a supportive workplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody was lovely. There wasn’t an a a drop of sexism anywhere. People were incredibly kind and smart and I treasured them all. So I was fortunate in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After working at Cybervision, she landed at Atari in the 1980s. Atari was a pioneering video game and computer company. They made some of the OG arcade hits like Pong and Space Invaders. This was the beginning of the tech boom and early tech innovation, and very much a boys club. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was extremely male dominated and there were subcultures of males inside of that culture that were even harder to deal with. You know, I had to, I remember my first day at Atari, I had to kick the boys out of the women’s room because that’s where they were smoking weed. And I said, you know what? There’s a woman in the house, I need to use the bathroom. Could you guys clear, you know? I learned to be pretty bitchy to great positive effect, I will add. Dropping the occasional F bomb at a at a staff meeting was always good for getting people’s attention in those days. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Atari, Brenda went on to work at various tech companies, including Activision and even Apple. But at almost every stop, Brenda felt like games were targeted for boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. So she began to ask herself — how could she get more girls interested in computers? That’s a new tab. How Purple Moon changed the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1992, Brenda got a job at Interval Research, a research and technology incubator. Brenda was able to convince management to do a study on girls and games. At the time, research showed that parents were much more likely to buy computers for boys than for girls, even if girls expressed interest. And female gamers in the 90s were only about 10 to 25% of the gaming population, depending on the country. So there was a large gap in computer literacy for young girls. Brenda wanted to learn why. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally speaking, you didn’t see little girls putting their hands on the machine because they would say, “I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake. I don’t want to touch it. It’s for boys.” So there were gender biases built into the way girls thought about how they might relate to technology. And our thinking as we spoke about it was as we move into a more technological world, they’ve got to get comfortable with it so that they have access to the power and help and joy, you know, that they might get from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, as we went out and started interviewing little girls, what we discovered was we couldn’t ask what’s your favorite computer game because there weren’t any for them, and they weren’t really playing. So we changed the question to how do girls and boys play and how is it different? What we learned in the course of talking with these girls is that it’s a hell of a hard time of life to be a tween girl. There’s all kinds of social stuff coming from the way women and girls relate to each other in same sex groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so they had issues, not just about technology, but about life that we were seeing, you know, writ large and everything they said didn’t matter what city we were in, we were hearing the same thing. “I feel like everything happens and I can’t do anything about it. I don’t know who I am yet. I don’t know how to help people. Oh, I wish I hadn’t made that decision.” You know, there’s a lot of negative stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after interviewing over a thousand young girls and about 500 young boys on their real life experiences navigating their pre-teen and teenage years, Brenda had an idea. What if she could develop a game that was entirely meant for young girls through their eyes? One that could have a positive impact on their lives. And so the idea for Purple Moon was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t easy to get into the computer gaming market with games geared for girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In those days, these boys games were sold to boys in stores that were frequented by boys and you know, you just weren’t gonna put it in front of a kid unless you could get it into a toy store or some other kind of retail establishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many hands helped launch Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure it takes a village, when I say my games or I designed this, I mean me and, you know, sixty other people who were sitting in the studio or we had wonderful writers and artists and thinkers and researchers and programmers. Uh so yeah, we worked together like a well-oiled machine, except when we didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon eventually became an independent company. The first Purple Moon game was released in 1997 and called Rockett’s New School. Visually, it had the same animated comic strip vibe as the other Purple Moon games that would come later. The game allows you to play as the character, Rockett Movado, on her first day of eighth grade at her new school. A PA announcement greets you as the game begins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome, students. It’s another fantastic year at Whistling Pines Junior High! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi. Listen, I’m sorry to just kind of intrude, but I’m pretty sure you’re new, right? Yeah, I am. My name’s Rockett. Wow, really? Well anyway, I’m Jessie. So you wanna walk in with me, Rockett? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea was with Rockett that you could make a choice. Something unfolds and you have a moment. How do I feel about this? We called it emotional navigation. And so you would click on thought bubbles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Venturing into the cafeteria scene alone could be fun. This is terrible. Not even a single friend to sit with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, I feel terrible, I want to cry. Why don’t I make up with her? Hey, maybe Charla can help. You pick one of those, the thing plays out. If you don’t like what happens, you can go back and change it and see what happens instead. So this kind of social and emotional flexibility is incredibly important to girls that age. And having a sense of personal agency and a sense that you can make choices that matter and change your mind. These are really important milestones in that hard journey from being a little girl to a teenager. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my mission sort of changed from a tech equity one to a how can I build something here, design something here that will help little girls have a better time in their lives and achieve greater self-esteem and feel the sense of personal agency coming to life. So that’s really why I did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that. I mean, that’s why I really think I love the game so much is because you also were able to choose your own adventure and kind of have autonomy with your choice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I think even even though I was so young, I still felt like I felt power you know, I felt empowered by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worked. It worked! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, I don’t think I realized how the ability to choose my own adventures in the Purple Moon games helped shape some of my decision making as a young girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the idea was not so much choose your own adventure, but choose your own response. Choose your path of navigation through this relatively complex social situation. I’m so proud that just about every scenario you see in any of those games comes from the girls we talk to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another way Purple Moon was way ahead of its time was with its website. Through it, they found entirely new ways to engage girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tools for making a website were not easily available. So putting that together, Christy Rosenthal led that team inside of Purple Moon and um was an astoundingly successful website. We were beating Disney.com for hits and dwell time for at least the first six months of our lives as a company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Yeah, I don’t think I ever went on the website. I just always had the CD-ROM games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a whole different world over there. You could write articles for the Whistling Pines newspaper and then we would, you know, incorporate ideas into the storyline. So we were having a kind of narrative conversation with girls on the web, getting ideas for what we might do in the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Purple Moon website was pretty popular, and one reporter for Wired described it as an online space where she could make friends and be herself. It was like an early social networking site just for girls, where they could send each other online postcards and learn about new characters. Like I mentioned earlier, the Purple Moon games weren’t exactly visually advanced. I asked Brenda what it was like to design these games with the limited technology of the 90s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were pretty much animated comic strips. And the reason for that was that we didn’t have the processing power to do good enough lip sync animation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And uh and the computers that were around that day. And we could never get it right. It would always lag just enough to make you crazy. I mean we really tried it, but we couldn’t get there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While a considerable amount of research went into making the Purple Moon games, not everyone liked the direction the games took. There were definitely some critics at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got blowback on these games both from men who thought they were stupid and from hardcore feminists who thought girls ought to behave differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll get into that. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time for a new tab. Purple moon gets pushback. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after the first Purple Moon game, Rockett’s New School was released, a reporter for the New York Times gave a scathing review. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The guy who reviewed the games in the New York Times thought they were just silly. Like, why would you care about who you’re going to be friends with in high school? You know, boys have a very different way of establishing social status in peer groups, generally speaking, we’re all, you know, we’re talking about averages, not everybody, but there’s a very different method. And so when a man looked at it, it’s like, what? Where’s the competition? You know, nobody’s shooting anybody. There are no monsters, no racing cars. What are you thinking? You know, it was that kind of stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it just delighted me. I thought, I have alienated the right person. One of our strategies here with the whole branding of the games as it evolved was to make sure that they gave boys cooties. We didn’t want boys to play them. The reason was that if your big brother played it and had the same response as the New York Times critic did and said, “this game is really lame”. You’d probably go, “Oh, I better not play it in front of John. ” You know, “oh, it’s not cool. I guess I shouldn’t do it.” That happens, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what we wanted was for to present something that girls said, “I own this. You know, I own this. And and you don’t get to tell me whether it’s any good or not.” So, we we made purple packaging, you know, we did all kinds of stuff to to alienate male players from picking it up and buying it because of that business of judgment coming from boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Male critics of the games didn’t surprise Brenda. What did surprise her was criticism from some women and feminists who didn’t like the games either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were silly ones and there were reasonably good ones. You know, there’s an issue about girls behaving in a way that’s considered to be badly. Um, Gossip, exclusion, breaking of affiliations. These are the ways that girls covertly establish their social position, generally speaking. Those are tools that girls and women use. So that was part of it. They didn’t see queer people. Well, in 1995, ’96, we weren’t talking about queer people eleven years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that that was a step too far. We didn’t have religion in the game either for the same reason. And it was just like stuff you didn’t talk about yet. Today, if I were doing it today, I would certainly deal with gender fluidity, with trans kids. I all of that stuff would come into play. But in in that period of time, that wasn’t possible. And yet, generally speaking, there was nothing but praise from women and educators and coaches and stuff like that. And and the sales were great. We were beating John Madden football for the first quarter that we were out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics also had issues with the research conducted to create Purple Moon. Some thought that the girls they interviewed may have already internalized gender stereotypes about what girls should like based on their age. They felt that Brenda and her team were just perpetuating the same gender tropes from their data. There was also criticism surrounding racial stereotypes in the games. One article I found stated that the game used cliches, quote, “such as the snobby popular blonde girl and the smart Asian with glasses.” Brenda felt differently about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I look at the games, I don’t see no racial stereotyping. And it certainly didn’t cause us to make any changes because, you know, we looked at it, we took it seriously, we evaluated it. And we came to the decision that it was incorrect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While watching the replay of my favorite game, the Starfire Soccer Challenge on YouTube, I did notice how Miko, one of the characters in the game who is Asian, is depicted as a Samurai with a sword as she runs down the soccer field. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re scared now. They’re intimidated. They’re ugh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll be honest, I cringed a bit at first at this image. But I later learned that the “Samurai Miko” character was actually designed by an Asian-American artist named Grace Chen, which definitely adds important context. While I don’t think the games are perfect, I do admire that Brenda and her team did extensive research with real young girls at the time to hear about what they were actually going through. And some articles stated that the Starfire Soccer Challenge game was beneficial. One even called it, quote, “an outstanding example of digital technology supporting positive emotional development.” I wonder what the games could look like now if they were created today. What would young girls, boys, or non-binary players desire to see in the games? And how could developers correct some of the cliches seen in the games in the 90s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They wouldn’t be the same. We might get to some of the same emotional and ethical places that we did in the original games. It would take a boatload of new research because just as those girls I interviewed weren’t me at 10, um, the girls today aren’t you. And we need to go out and talk to them, learn what their lives are like, you know, figure it out. And I’d be tempted the second time around to build a game for little boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda never got the opportunity to make a game for boys. In 1999, after only three years, the company folded. But why did this happen? That’s a new tab. What happened to Purple Moon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1999, Purple Moon’s biggest funder, Paul Allen, decided to shift his focus to the e-commerce sector, which was beginning to take off at the time. Ultimately, he decided to take his money out of Purple Moon. This had very serious consequences for the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got the news from the board that they were gonna shut us down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We we had eighty people expecting their paycheck that day. They had frozen our bank accounts. My CEO Nancy Deyo and I got in the car with the CFO. We remembered that we’d made a deposit on our office space with a different bank. So we got in the car, raced over there, took that money out in cash and gave everybody their pay. And they ended up selling the the company to Mattel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the board decided to shut Purple Moon down, Brenda and others were terminated from the company. Then, once Mattel bought the gaming studio, the Purple Moon games eventually stopped being created for good. Brenda was devastated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Took me about a year to recover personally from that. After we shut down the website, we put a goodbye message on the on the front so if you logged into it, it would say, “Hi, we’ve had to leave. We’re so sorry we’ll miss you. ” Well, it turns out that if you were already on the site, if you didn’t leave, if you just sort of kept that window open, your friends could come into the site and join. We had like 300 kids joining Purple Moon after it was shut down because they were sneaking into the side door of the website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though Purple Moon’s closure was bittersweet, Brenda felt that the company had accomplished what it set out to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely feel like we hit the goal of making games that would enrich and enhance the lives of little girls. I feel like it was, you know, act of love from all of us, um who worked on it creatively. And I feel like we succeeded. I know that because I hear from people like you who tell me this changed my life. That’s what we wanted to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, girls would have ended up getting literate with computers anyway, as soon as the internet became something you could actually get to uh easily. A lot of the “I’m afraid to put my hands on the keyboard” stuff went away. I mean, we probably helped with that transition. And it wasn’t very long until females were at least half, if not more than half, of of the audience on the web for everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda began envisioning Purple Moon at a time when computer games weren’t designed with girls in mind. Since the 90s, the percentage of female gamers has grown to 47% in the US. Brenda wouldn’t claim credit for that entire change, but it’s hard to deny Purple Moon’s influence on girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe my love for gaming started because the Purple Moon games felt accessible. And maybe it ended because CD-ROMs eventually became obsolete, and I never quite felt like the video game universe was meant for me. Whatever the case, the world of Purple Moon was a place I felt like I belonged, where I had agency. And for young Maya, that was everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Brenda. This was so great to get to talk to you. I feel like little Maya is so happy right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give little Maya a hug from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported and produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> has been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061805/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, we’re shifting the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063889/californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations\"> in conversation with transgender elders\u003c/a> whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1577896821\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s story brings together Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old Black transgender rights activist at TGIJP, or the Miss Major Alexander E. Lee \u003ca href=\"https://tgijp.org/\">Transgender Gender-Variant & Intersex Justice Project\u003c/a> in San Francisco, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/profile--andrea-horne\">Andrea Horne\u003c/a>, a San Francisco-based actress, model and jazz singer who was a part of legendary disco artist Sylvester’s entourage in the 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now a historian working on her forthcoming book, \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World,\u003c/em> Andrea reflects with Zen on those who came before them and those who will come after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063827\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063827\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows Zen Blossom a photo of Crystal LaBeija in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. LaBeija was a drag queen and trans woman born in the 1930s who helped influence ball culture and became a mother figure for homeless LGBTQ+ youth. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, you’re listening to the California Report Magazine. I’m Sasha Khokha. And as you may know, it’s Transgender Awareness Month. For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between gender-expansive kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. We called the series called, “Love You for You.”[aside postID=news_12063889 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-30-KQED.jpg']And now we’re bringing you two bonus episodes of young people in their 20s interviewing transgender elders who are trailblazers when it comes to LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>. So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with your kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode, we’re gonna meet Andrea Horne, an actress, model and singer who also spent decades as a social worker. And Zen Blossom, who works at TGIJP, a Black trans cultural center and services organization in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Peace, everyone. My name is Zen. I use she-her pronouns. I am currently 26 and I reside in Oakland. I am born and raised in Los Angeles, six generations my family’s been in California.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nAndrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, my name is Andrea, and my pronouns are Her/she, like the chocolate candy bar.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I’m a woman of a certain age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Period. And I’m originally from L.A. myself, but I lived in San Francisco longer than I lived in L.A. But I still feel like I’m from L.A., even though I’ve lived here over 40 years in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063828\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063828\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-1536x1084.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne points to a photo of Sweet Evening Breeze, center, a Black trans woman born in 1982, on her laptop at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. Andrea is working on a book called “How Black Trans Women Changed the World.” \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Andrea moved to San Francisco in part because she was friends with Sylvester, the disco artist and singer who’s become a queer icon. These days, Andrea’s a historian, working on a book called \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em> — focused on women who lived from 1836–1936. Andrea shares some of that history and her own history in this conversation with Zen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They start by talking about how they both left Los Angeles because they had unsupportive families. Andrea was only 15 when she ran away from home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I felt like there has been a long-lost history in a sense of the connections between Los Angeles, San Francisco and trans people migrating up and down. I just love hearing about your story, you being from L.A. and self-determining for yourself that you need to get out and figure out some other things for yourself at such a young age, 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I was just following behind the girls that came before me, and I feel, since I’ve been working in the social work field with trans people for the last 25 years, I realized that I was lucky to have what we call a drag mother, someone to help me see my way through. I love your lips, by the way. (Laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063825\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063825\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows a photo of a Black trans woman named Kate, parading in front of a group of San Quentin prisoners in 1925, on her phone in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I could tell you a little bit about my background, I guess. My mother’s people are from Louisiana and my father’s people are from Texas. And they moved to California during World War II. And my mother’s father was a Pullman porter. I don’t know if you know about the histories of the Pullman porters in America, but the Pullman porters created the black middle class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What was their role for people who don’t know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Pullman porters were like flight attendants on trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And it was all handsome black men. I know that was some probably gay guy during the hiring or something, because they were all handsome, educated black men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063824\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063824\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne, a performer, historian and activist poses for a photo with her 4-year-old Pomeranian Mei-Mei, outside of her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>My family is from Texas, too. My grandma got here in the ‘20s with her mom and her grandma. They took the 66 all the way up to like the northern middle part of California and then came down to Los Angeles. But they stopped in Delano for a second. But a lot of the folks that she worked with were like in the factories and things and doing the canning and the industries, especially during the world wars and stuff, she was doing the canning and stuff. So it’s just interesting to see, like, how, regardless of different class backgrounds, too, that the migration affected like black people as a whole still. There’s a type of racism that happens that doesn’t allow people to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Interestingly, the Black people that stayed in the South are like runnin’ it. You know, they’re in every office, everything, which I find amusing. They stayed there. My mother’s from New Orleans, and she went to Xavier College, which is a black Catholic, HBCU Catholic. My whole family went to those. My father, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK. I was gonna ask my next question was like, what was that process trying to invite them into your life, as you, or maybe not invite them into your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>They’ve never been in my life since I transitioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I think that’s why it’s really important to speak to like, chosen family too. And like why it important that you had your drag mom there around you to support you in these really difficult times. What was the name of your chosen mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Her name is Duchess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Duchess? OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And then there was Eva, her best friend, my kind of drag auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And how old were you when you met them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. And Duchess was in her 20s. And Eva was in her twenties as well. And they kind of took me in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How did y’all meet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s an interesting story. It was summer vacation. I was 15. And my mother had become kind of a psycho about my transgenderism. It drove her mad. I was with my friends from high school, and my friends are like saying you don’t have to take that from her. You know, you’re be your own person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we were at Venice Beach and when it got dark, they all went home for dinner and left me sitting at Venice Beach. And so that empty feeling of having nowhere to go had stayed with me. So anyway, I sat there an hour not knowing what to do. I just had on. I didn’t even have a jacket. It was summer in L.A. One of my friends came back. Thank God. And. Said, let me take you to my cousin. And so my trans girlfriend from high school brought me to her cousin, named Duchess, who ended up being my drag mother. And we looked similar, so we could say we were sisters. And the moment I met her and she looked me up and down and she said, “Do you want titties?” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” And she reached in her pocket and she pulled out this hormone pill, a premarin pill, purple. It was like bitten in two, and it had lint and dust and grease and tobacco all clinging to it, and I didn’t care. I just inhaled it. And in the morning, I thought I was gonna be Dolly Parton. But I wasn’t. (Laughs) Dolly Parton takes years, but I didn’t know that at the time. However, my drag mother, we’ll just call her Duchess. She did sex work, survival sex work. That’s all she knew. She got kicked out of her house when she was my age. And after I met her, I think probably within an hour, I was doing sex work. But not real sex work because Duchess’ thing was to not turn the trick, to get the money and run or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so we did a lot of times that I learned how to run in five-inch heels from the tricks, from the police, jumping over back fences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits. It wasn’t it was it was quite wild. It’s a miracle I survived it. However, duchess like me, during the quiet moments, we just sat around and read. And she liked to read, I liked to read. From 1987 to 2007, I read a book a week. That’s 30 years. I read a book a week. You know, I mostly read biographies and autobiographies from people that I admired to see how they did it. Not how they did stardom, but how they got from where they started to becoming a star. That fascinates me. But as soon as I got my first laptop in 2007, I stopped reading a book a week, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you to the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yes, thanks to the internet. So you asked me about my family, what about yours? How did they support your transition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. Absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Are they church people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes, very much so. Grew up in the church. Grew with a lot of that, a lot of reading the Bible. I read the Bible multiple times. I still hold it dear to me in certain ways, aspects. And in other ways, I push it very, very far away. I definitely identify with growing up with my grandmas a lot more than my immediate parents. I felt like my grandmas kept me safe a lot better and they knew what was happening. And so I was with them until they both passed away, unfortunately, when I was 10. And then it was pretty rough, and then I ended up leaving and going to college away from family at 18, and that’s when I was able to like really be myself, explore myself. Do those things, and that was my way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Where’d you go to school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I went to school on the East Coast. I wanted to get as far as possible. I was very fortunate that I got a full ride because I also got a full ride for high school to also get away from my family and went to a private school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So, do you talk to your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I’m not in connection with them, besides my great-grandma. And that was a really cool thing for me because during the pandemic, when I stayed with her for a little bit, we were discussing and talking about, like just all the things. And she was teaching me how to sew. And when we were sewing, she was like, “Oh, do you want,” um, it was a dress that you would match. It was a robe, essentially, so you would either put the buttons on the left side or the right side. And she was like, ‘Which side are you gonna put it on?’ And for her, you know, depending on which side you have it on, that’s cross-dressing, you know, against the law. So she was trying to ask me what my tea was, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Because she did my measurements and it said, like, you know, 40-36-42, you know, so I had the, I had a figure. And so she was already like, no, clocking certain things here and there with me. She was like, “OK, so you have breasts. OK. So which side is this supposed to go on?” And then when we were sewing it together, she was just like, “You know what, this reminds me. Of when I was growing up, off of Central, and there’s someone that you remind me of,” and it was Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was a really powerful moment for me to know that we’ve always been here, and that there’s also points for people, especially the older generations, to still connect with us, because people think … That, oh, just because you’re older, that means you don’t have exposure to it. And it’s just very interesting for me that the older people in my life actually had more experience with transness than the people who were closer to me in age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I thought it was really cool that my great grandma had an understanding of what could be read as transness with Lady Java without having the exact words for it. And so I would love for you to share more about the prolific work of Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, her stage name was Sir Lady Java, and she was incredibly important to me, and incredibly important to all the other sort of black trans women in Los Angeles, because she was the queen. And why was she the queen? Well, she was a glamour girl associated with celebrities. And I know in L.A., that’s important. But she’s really famous for her activist work that kind of goes unrecognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she was performer, a showgirl. And she kept getting arrested as a female impersonator because that was illegal. And it gave the police the right to arrest you if they perceived that you may be trans in quotation marks. And so you had to, one had to wear three clothes, if you were a trans woman, you had wear three pieces of men’s clothing. And I remember Java told me that she wore a man’s wristwatch and a T-shirt under her mini dress and men’s socks, but she had them rolled down like Mary Jane’s. And so that’s how she could not get arrested. But she did get arrested whenever she appeared at Black clubs. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Off of Central.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, off Central. And so, but she fought in the courts with the ACLU, so that cross-dressing quote was not illegal any longer. And she fought, and it took years, and I think she lost the first couple of times, but they kept at it. And the law was changed, and it made an incredible difference for trans people everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It set a precedent, a nationwide precedent, that cross-dressing or drag was OK. The police, when it became legal, they had to kind of back up off black trans women who they normally harassed on a regular basis. And so her activist work changed the lives of all queer people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a white gay man might not know that it was Sir Lady Java that did that, but it’s always been black trans woman leading the call. I guess that’s just our karma. and now we can be who we want to be. But as a little trans child growing up in L.A., I would see her name, Sir Lady Java, up in marquees, theater marquees. And so I knew what she was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yeah, so Java passed away this year, actually \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/18/arts/sir-lady-java-dead.html\">late last year\u003c/a>. And I went to her memorial service in Los Angeles, but she was important. I realized that’s another privilege I had. I didn’t realize I didn’t grow up in isolation in a small country town where I had no point of reference. I grew up in the city and I saw her name in marquees, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even like growing up in a rural town or something. ‘Cause for me, I like, I grew up in Los Angeles and I still didn’t have access to Lady Java until after the fact, you know, after. And so it was just like, that’s also a really big thing that is like, that I feel like people need to understand about California that it’s like a golden state. Like it’s this progressive place, but also it can be very unsafe. For trans kids at homes that are unsupportive. I wish I knew about Lady Java and everything growing up because if I did, I probably would have invited more people into my life a lot earlier on. But you know. (Dog barks) But that’s not how life goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And Mei Mei, sitting here, my little five-pound mocha chocolate little Pomeranian, she’s sitting in my lap, she just barked a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She’s really cute, y’all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she is really cute. It’s been five minutes since someone told her she was cute, so just like her mother. Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I find that since I’ve been doing the research for a book I’m working on about black trans women called, the working title is \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em>, I’ve found that people were so much more tolerant about queer issues before World War II. Right, and it changed after World War II with the sort of the conservatism of the 50s and the civil rights movement. I think really kind of turned the tide for trans people, we’ll just use that word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> In quotations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>In quotations because there was no such thing as trans people a few years ago. My drag mother and auntie still don’t let me refer to them as that. They just live their lives as women. But yeah, it flipped, the script flipped from tolerance to being really intolerant and even violent towards us. But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The lanes were a hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Work in a bar of some sort, a show girl and housewife. You know, that’s kind of, that’s it. That was all available to us. I remember a girl from my crowd. She got a job at the phone company. I was astounded. I didn’t know that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>The girls could do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The girls could get jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So you were asking me about my book and I’m kind of focusing on three black trans women that were born before 1900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>But I’ll talk about Lucy Hicks Anderson the most, because she’s my favorite. And she was accomplished. And her story is super unique, I think. She was born in 18, circa 1890. She told her family that her name was no longer Tobias, that her name was Lucy and to call her Lucy. And remarkably, her parents brought her to the doctor, two doctors, and both doctors said, “Just call her Lucy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. And this speaks back to what you were saying earlier, how there was a lot more tolerance for us back in the day and awareness around us possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, people seem to understand that trans is part of the human condition. But now they’re trying to sell it as something weird that just kind of happened in the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the trans turning point with Laverne (Cox).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, now they’re trying to sell the public that transgenderism is something new. It wasn’t called that before. So when I was growing up, the girls called themselves drag queens. But now drag queens is the domain of gay men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so Lucy, getting back to Lucy, love her. She was a gourmet chef and a madam, and then she met her husband, her second husband, and they moved to Oxnard because she always wanted to move to California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So she decided on Oxnard, which is about midways between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara, coastal. And she stayed there for 35 years and she ran a catering business and a brothel. And she was a bootlegger during the ‘20s. And she was a fashion plate and so she became the darling of the wives of the heads of studios.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Someone knew her from her past and told that she wasn’t assigned female at birth. They ran her out of Oxnard. But she was smart with her money and she’d bought a couple of houses over by Central Avenue in Los Angeles. And that’s where she moved to and she spent her last days there quietly. But she did so much that she changed people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that is why I admire her so much, that she had the wherewithal to sort of just live her authentic life. In retrospect, it takes courage to live your authentic life, which is why I think a lot of non-trans people hate trans people, because we have the courage to live our authentic lives. And a lot of people are envious of that ability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She was a philanthropist too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>During World War II, she gave $50,000 in war bonds, which is a couple million dollars today. So she loved America and she loved her life, but they wouldn’t let her just live her life out. So I wanna tell her story because it needs to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> It does. She was stealth. What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stealth is a relatively new term. And I think it’s a white term, but it means being a trans person living in your true gender without people knowing about it. Passing, as they call it. That’s what stealth is. And I myself lived stealth from age 15, from that first hormone pill I told you about, until I was 50. I never denied my transness, but it just wasn’t on display. It wasn’t open for discussion. Yeah, it just wasn’t opened for discussion and I just had a regular little job and a husband and so I was just living my life like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Something happened like that to me in San Francisco in the ‘90s. I was working in an office downtown. And someone I know, I saw in the building. I don’t know who he told, but he told my tea. And when I came back from lunch, the police and the building security guards were standing at my desk. And they handed me my paycheck and escorted me out. No words were spoken, and they escorted me out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the girl I had just had lunch with, she was screaming at the top of her lungs, “I just had lunch with it. Arrrh!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Hmmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Now, that was over 30 years ago, and that wouldn’t happen today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So when I first met Sylvester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Right. How old were you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. Sylvester was in his early 20s. And I went to my first kind of queer party and there were lots of trans women and men there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And I thought that Sylvester, or Dooney, was a real woman, which is so fascinating, because years later, you would think it’s impossible. But I’ll show you a picture on my phone, he was flawless. But I moved here partly because of Sylvester, because I knew him in L.A. And I just kept coming up to visit and I got a modeling job through Sylvester. So I had to get an apartment, and that was in 1979. I got my first apartment in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How much was rent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>My rent was $200.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>A month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. But yeah, Sylvester kind of changed the world. Sylvester sort of invented this sort of non-binary genderqueer thing that’s very popular right now. But Sylvester was the first one sort of publicly doing that. You know, he was a boy one day and a girl the next and a mustache the next and smooth shaving the next. And, you know, eventually became a star, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>No it’s so cool hearing about your story, especially with Sylvester at such a young age, holding you down, because really Sylvester is prolific here in San Francisco: huge musician, queer icon and a lot of folks don’t know this history about their gender queerness, possibly like non-binaryness and we can’t erase that and be simple in how we see gender or our community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>You know, I agree with you on that. It’s just that gay men have claimed Sylvester. But he also started as a trans woman, and I think that should be part of his story also, because that’s what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. You talked a bit about the conversation around just having to be stealth and not wanting to disclose because it’s honestly not people’s business, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> True.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How do you think that’s similar to now? Versus then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I think that for all the trans people that are out professing their transness, there’s just as equally as many trans people who are still living stealth. And I don’t think they have any plans on coming out, especially now, with the political climate the way it is. I want to go back stealth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> You would, or would not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I want to, but I’m on the internet now, so I can’t, but, you know, it’s scary times for us now, and things have gotten better for trans folks, but black trans women are still getting (beep) over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And are restricted and precluded from resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco, yes. San Francisco is fabulous if you’re a white gay man. It is Disneyland with the A-ticket and the Matterhorn and all of that, but for the rest of us, it’s just America. M-E-R-K-K-K-A. Oh, I forgot an I in there somewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so just know that as many trans people that you see on TV and Pose and everyone’s twerking and all that, there’s just as many people that are living stealth lives in the suburbs married. So when you hear people say, “I’ve never used the bathroom with somebody trans!” You probably have. They probably have, but.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Many a times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Many a times. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What advice do you have for Black trans girls today, especially for like building sisterhood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stay in school, that’s that’s your way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Mmm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s my message to young Black trans women, stay at school. And if you’re a teenager and they’re bullying you at school because you’re trans, you’re not gonna remember those (beep) in five years. You won’t even remember their names or their faces or anything. The people that bullied me when I was in high school, I wish somebody had told me, you’re not even going to remember them. But when you’re a teen, the present is everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> And you haven’t yet developed the ability to kind of foresee in the future. And so it’s all immediate. And the message is it will pass, you’ll survive it, and you won’t even remember them. Just stay in school, educate yourself. That’s undeniable. Stay in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Go as far as you can in school and my dream, my lottery-winning dream is to have a scholarship fund for black trans women. I had a dear friend named Dana Turner, who was a Black trans woman who went to Georgetown Law School, which is pretty impressive. I want to have it in, in her name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s been rewarding at the very least to get immersed in the history and the knowledge and the lineage of the work. And also that we have so many different folks to look to and different possibility models there’s ones as philanthropists, we have people who are cooks. We have people who are going to law school. We have who read books every week for 30 years. We have our different miniature worlds that we can create for ourselves and curate. It takes a lot of investment, but in the long term, it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I think, Zen, it’s important that we have conversations like this, because America teaches us not to really care about our old folks. As trans folks, we want to start a new model, an intergenerational model, an interaction where we really support and help each other. I want to see us moving in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Yeah, for the girls. We’re saving lives here. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got to save lives, and we got to let people know that transgender is nothing new. It’s always been part of the human condition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa, all the way to Africa. It’s interesting how contemporary Africans say that there’s no queers, there’s no African queers. But of course that’s not true. But Europeans brought, they didn’t bring queerness, they brought …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: and Andrea Horne together:\u003c/strong> homophobia and transphobia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>It was good continuing to build with you, Andrea, and you, Mei Mei. I will never forget. Don’t worry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I hope this is just the first conversation of many, because we really just scratched the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> We really did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Continues\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Transgender elder Andrea Horne, in conversation with Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old transgender activist from Oakland who works with the TGIJP Black Trans Cultural Center. The center was founded by Miss Major, a trailblazing Black trans activist and who passed away this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha with Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal\u003c/a> podcast for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the way, if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>. Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades Out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> has been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061805/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, we’re shifting the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063889/californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations\"> in conversation with transgender elders\u003c/a> whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1577896821\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s story brings together Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old Black transgender rights activist at TGIJP, or the Miss Major Alexander E. Lee \u003ca href=\"https://tgijp.org/\">Transgender Gender-Variant & Intersex Justice Project\u003c/a> in San Francisco, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/profile--andrea-horne\">Andrea Horne\u003c/a>, a San Francisco-based actress, model and jazz singer who was a part of legendary disco artist Sylvester’s entourage in the 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now a historian working on her forthcoming book, \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World,\u003c/em> Andrea reflects with Zen on those who came before them and those who will come after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063827\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063827\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows Zen Blossom a photo of Crystal LaBeija in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. LaBeija was a drag queen and trans woman born in the 1930s who helped influence ball culture and became a mother figure for homeless LGBTQ+ youth. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, you’re listening to the California Report Magazine. I’m Sasha Khokha. And as you may know, it’s Transgender Awareness Month. For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between gender-expansive kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. We called the series called, “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And now we’re bringing you two bonus episodes of young people in their 20s interviewing transgender elders who are trailblazers when it comes to LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>. So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with your kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode, we’re gonna meet Andrea Horne, an actress, model and singer who also spent decades as a social worker. And Zen Blossom, who works at TGIJP, a Black trans cultural center and services organization in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Peace, everyone. My name is Zen. I use she-her pronouns. I am currently 26 and I reside in Oakland. I am born and raised in Los Angeles, six generations my family’s been in California.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nAndrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, my name is Andrea, and my pronouns are Her/she, like the chocolate candy bar.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I’m a woman of a certain age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Period. And I’m originally from L.A. myself, but I lived in San Francisco longer than I lived in L.A. But I still feel like I’m from L.A., even though I’ve lived here over 40 years in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063828\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063828\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-1536x1084.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne points to a photo of Sweet Evening Breeze, center, a Black trans woman born in 1982, on her laptop at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. Andrea is working on a book called “How Black Trans Women Changed the World.” \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Andrea moved to San Francisco in part because she was friends with Sylvester, the disco artist and singer who’s become a queer icon. These days, Andrea’s a historian, working on a book called \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em> — focused on women who lived from 1836–1936. Andrea shares some of that history and her own history in this conversation with Zen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They start by talking about how they both left Los Angeles because they had unsupportive families. Andrea was only 15 when she ran away from home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I felt like there has been a long-lost history in a sense of the connections between Los Angeles, San Francisco and trans people migrating up and down. I just love hearing about your story, you being from L.A. and self-determining for yourself that you need to get out and figure out some other things for yourself at such a young age, 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I was just following behind the girls that came before me, and I feel, since I’ve been working in the social work field with trans people for the last 25 years, I realized that I was lucky to have what we call a drag mother, someone to help me see my way through. I love your lips, by the way. (Laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063825\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063825\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows a photo of a Black trans woman named Kate, parading in front of a group of San Quentin prisoners in 1925, on her phone in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I could tell you a little bit about my background, I guess. My mother’s people are from Louisiana and my father’s people are from Texas. And they moved to California during World War II. And my mother’s father was a Pullman porter. I don’t know if you know about the histories of the Pullman porters in America, but the Pullman porters created the black middle class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What was their role for people who don’t know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Pullman porters were like flight attendants on trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And it was all handsome black men. I know that was some probably gay guy during the hiring or something, because they were all handsome, educated black men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063824\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063824\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne, a performer, historian and activist poses for a photo with her 4-year-old Pomeranian Mei-Mei, outside of her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>My family is from Texas, too. My grandma got here in the ‘20s with her mom and her grandma. They took the 66 all the way up to like the northern middle part of California and then came down to Los Angeles. But they stopped in Delano for a second. But a lot of the folks that she worked with were like in the factories and things and doing the canning and the industries, especially during the world wars and stuff, she was doing the canning and stuff. So it’s just interesting to see, like, how, regardless of different class backgrounds, too, that the migration affected like black people as a whole still. There’s a type of racism that happens that doesn’t allow people to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Interestingly, the Black people that stayed in the South are like runnin’ it. You know, they’re in every office, everything, which I find amusing. They stayed there. My mother’s from New Orleans, and she went to Xavier College, which is a black Catholic, HBCU Catholic. My whole family went to those. My father, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK. I was gonna ask my next question was like, what was that process trying to invite them into your life, as you, or maybe not invite them into your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>They’ve never been in my life since I transitioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I think that’s why it’s really important to speak to like, chosen family too. And like why it important that you had your drag mom there around you to support you in these really difficult times. What was the name of your chosen mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Her name is Duchess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Duchess? OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And then there was Eva, her best friend, my kind of drag auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And how old were you when you met them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. And Duchess was in her 20s. And Eva was in her twenties as well. And they kind of took me in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How did y’all meet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s an interesting story. It was summer vacation. I was 15. And my mother had become kind of a psycho about my transgenderism. It drove her mad. I was with my friends from high school, and my friends are like saying you don’t have to take that from her. You know, you’re be your own person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we were at Venice Beach and when it got dark, they all went home for dinner and left me sitting at Venice Beach. And so that empty feeling of having nowhere to go had stayed with me. So anyway, I sat there an hour not knowing what to do. I just had on. I didn’t even have a jacket. It was summer in L.A. One of my friends came back. Thank God. And. Said, let me take you to my cousin. And so my trans girlfriend from high school brought me to her cousin, named Duchess, who ended up being my drag mother. And we looked similar, so we could say we were sisters. And the moment I met her and she looked me up and down and she said, “Do you want titties?” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” And she reached in her pocket and she pulled out this hormone pill, a premarin pill, purple. It was like bitten in two, and it had lint and dust and grease and tobacco all clinging to it, and I didn’t care. I just inhaled it. And in the morning, I thought I was gonna be Dolly Parton. But I wasn’t. (Laughs) Dolly Parton takes years, but I didn’t know that at the time. However, my drag mother, we’ll just call her Duchess. She did sex work, survival sex work. That’s all she knew. She got kicked out of her house when she was my age. And after I met her, I think probably within an hour, I was doing sex work. But not real sex work because Duchess’ thing was to not turn the trick, to get the money and run or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so we did a lot of times that I learned how to run in five-inch heels from the tricks, from the police, jumping over back fences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits. It wasn’t it was it was quite wild. It’s a miracle I survived it. However, duchess like me, during the quiet moments, we just sat around and read. And she liked to read, I liked to read. From 1987 to 2007, I read a book a week. That’s 30 years. I read a book a week. You know, I mostly read biographies and autobiographies from people that I admired to see how they did it. Not how they did stardom, but how they got from where they started to becoming a star. That fascinates me. But as soon as I got my first laptop in 2007, I stopped reading a book a week, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you to the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yes, thanks to the internet. So you asked me about my family, what about yours? How did they support your transition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. Absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Are they church people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes, very much so. Grew up in the church. Grew with a lot of that, a lot of reading the Bible. I read the Bible multiple times. I still hold it dear to me in certain ways, aspects. And in other ways, I push it very, very far away. I definitely identify with growing up with my grandmas a lot more than my immediate parents. I felt like my grandmas kept me safe a lot better and they knew what was happening. And so I was with them until they both passed away, unfortunately, when I was 10. And then it was pretty rough, and then I ended up leaving and going to college away from family at 18, and that’s when I was able to like really be myself, explore myself. Do those things, and that was my way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Where’d you go to school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I went to school on the East Coast. I wanted to get as far as possible. I was very fortunate that I got a full ride because I also got a full ride for high school to also get away from my family and went to a private school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So, do you talk to your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I’m not in connection with them, besides my great-grandma. And that was a really cool thing for me because during the pandemic, when I stayed with her for a little bit, we were discussing and talking about, like just all the things. And she was teaching me how to sew. And when we were sewing, she was like, “Oh, do you want,” um, it was a dress that you would match. It was a robe, essentially, so you would either put the buttons on the left side or the right side. And she was like, ‘Which side are you gonna put it on?’ And for her, you know, depending on which side you have it on, that’s cross-dressing, you know, against the law. So she was trying to ask me what my tea was, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Because she did my measurements and it said, like, you know, 40-36-42, you know, so I had the, I had a figure. And so she was already like, no, clocking certain things here and there with me. She was like, “OK, so you have breasts. OK. So which side is this supposed to go on?” And then when we were sewing it together, she was just like, “You know what, this reminds me. Of when I was growing up, off of Central, and there’s someone that you remind me of,” and it was Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was a really powerful moment for me to know that we’ve always been here, and that there’s also points for people, especially the older generations, to still connect with us, because people think … That, oh, just because you’re older, that means you don’t have exposure to it. And it’s just very interesting for me that the older people in my life actually had more experience with transness than the people who were closer to me in age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I thought it was really cool that my great grandma had an understanding of what could be read as transness with Lady Java without having the exact words for it. And so I would love for you to share more about the prolific work of Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, her stage name was Sir Lady Java, and she was incredibly important to me, and incredibly important to all the other sort of black trans women in Los Angeles, because she was the queen. And why was she the queen? Well, she was a glamour girl associated with celebrities. And I know in L.A., that’s important. But she’s really famous for her activist work that kind of goes unrecognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she was performer, a showgirl. And she kept getting arrested as a female impersonator because that was illegal. And it gave the police the right to arrest you if they perceived that you may be trans in quotation marks. And so you had to, one had to wear three clothes, if you were a trans woman, you had wear three pieces of men’s clothing. And I remember Java told me that she wore a man’s wristwatch and a T-shirt under her mini dress and men’s socks, but she had them rolled down like Mary Jane’s. And so that’s how she could not get arrested. But she did get arrested whenever she appeared at Black clubs. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Off of Central.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, off Central. And so, but she fought in the courts with the ACLU, so that cross-dressing quote was not illegal any longer. And she fought, and it took years, and I think she lost the first couple of times, but they kept at it. And the law was changed, and it made an incredible difference for trans people everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It set a precedent, a nationwide precedent, that cross-dressing or drag was OK. The police, when it became legal, they had to kind of back up off black trans women who they normally harassed on a regular basis. And so her activist work changed the lives of all queer people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a white gay man might not know that it was Sir Lady Java that did that, but it’s always been black trans woman leading the call. I guess that’s just our karma. and now we can be who we want to be. But as a little trans child growing up in L.A., I would see her name, Sir Lady Java, up in marquees, theater marquees. And so I knew what she was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yeah, so Java passed away this year, actually \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/18/arts/sir-lady-java-dead.html\">late last year\u003c/a>. And I went to her memorial service in Los Angeles, but she was important. I realized that’s another privilege I had. I didn’t realize I didn’t grow up in isolation in a small country town where I had no point of reference. I grew up in the city and I saw her name in marquees, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even like growing up in a rural town or something. ‘Cause for me, I like, I grew up in Los Angeles and I still didn’t have access to Lady Java until after the fact, you know, after. And so it was just like, that’s also a really big thing that is like, that I feel like people need to understand about California that it’s like a golden state. Like it’s this progressive place, but also it can be very unsafe. For trans kids at homes that are unsupportive. I wish I knew about Lady Java and everything growing up because if I did, I probably would have invited more people into my life a lot earlier on. But you know. (Dog barks) But that’s not how life goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And Mei Mei, sitting here, my little five-pound mocha chocolate little Pomeranian, she’s sitting in my lap, she just barked a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She’s really cute, y’all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she is really cute. It’s been five minutes since someone told her she was cute, so just like her mother. Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I find that since I’ve been doing the research for a book I’m working on about black trans women called, the working title is \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em>, I’ve found that people were so much more tolerant about queer issues before World War II. Right, and it changed after World War II with the sort of the conservatism of the 50s and the civil rights movement. I think really kind of turned the tide for trans people, we’ll just use that word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> In quotations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>In quotations because there was no such thing as trans people a few years ago. My drag mother and auntie still don’t let me refer to them as that. They just live their lives as women. But yeah, it flipped, the script flipped from tolerance to being really intolerant and even violent towards us. But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The lanes were a hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Work in a bar of some sort, a show girl and housewife. You know, that’s kind of, that’s it. That was all available to us. I remember a girl from my crowd. She got a job at the phone company. I was astounded. I didn’t know that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>The girls could do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The girls could get jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So you were asking me about my book and I’m kind of focusing on three black trans women that were born before 1900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>But I’ll talk about Lucy Hicks Anderson the most, because she’s my favorite. And she was accomplished. And her story is super unique, I think. She was born in 18, circa 1890. She told her family that her name was no longer Tobias, that her name was Lucy and to call her Lucy. And remarkably, her parents brought her to the doctor, two doctors, and both doctors said, “Just call her Lucy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. And this speaks back to what you were saying earlier, how there was a lot more tolerance for us back in the day and awareness around us possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, people seem to understand that trans is part of the human condition. But now they’re trying to sell it as something weird that just kind of happened in the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the trans turning point with Laverne (Cox).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, now they’re trying to sell the public that transgenderism is something new. It wasn’t called that before. So when I was growing up, the girls called themselves drag queens. But now drag queens is the domain of gay men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so Lucy, getting back to Lucy, love her. She was a gourmet chef and a madam, and then she met her husband, her second husband, and they moved to Oxnard because she always wanted to move to California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So she decided on Oxnard, which is about midways between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara, coastal. And she stayed there for 35 years and she ran a catering business and a brothel. And she was a bootlegger during the ‘20s. And she was a fashion plate and so she became the darling of the wives of the heads of studios.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Someone knew her from her past and told that she wasn’t assigned female at birth. They ran her out of Oxnard. But she was smart with her money and she’d bought a couple of houses over by Central Avenue in Los Angeles. And that’s where she moved to and she spent her last days there quietly. But she did so much that she changed people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that is why I admire her so much, that she had the wherewithal to sort of just live her authentic life. In retrospect, it takes courage to live your authentic life, which is why I think a lot of non-trans people hate trans people, because we have the courage to live our authentic lives. And a lot of people are envious of that ability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She was a philanthropist too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>During World War II, she gave $50,000 in war bonds, which is a couple million dollars today. So she loved America and she loved her life, but they wouldn’t let her just live her life out. So I wanna tell her story because it needs to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> It does. She was stealth. What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stealth is a relatively new term. And I think it’s a white term, but it means being a trans person living in your true gender without people knowing about it. Passing, as they call it. That’s what stealth is. And I myself lived stealth from age 15, from that first hormone pill I told you about, until I was 50. I never denied my transness, but it just wasn’t on display. It wasn’t open for discussion. Yeah, it just wasn’t opened for discussion and I just had a regular little job and a husband and so I was just living my life like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Something happened like that to me in San Francisco in the ‘90s. I was working in an office downtown. And someone I know, I saw in the building. I don’t know who he told, but he told my tea. And when I came back from lunch, the police and the building security guards were standing at my desk. And they handed me my paycheck and escorted me out. No words were spoken, and they escorted me out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the girl I had just had lunch with, she was screaming at the top of her lungs, “I just had lunch with it. Arrrh!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Hmmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Now, that was over 30 years ago, and that wouldn’t happen today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So when I first met Sylvester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Right. How old were you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. Sylvester was in his early 20s. And I went to my first kind of queer party and there were lots of trans women and men there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And I thought that Sylvester, or Dooney, was a real woman, which is so fascinating, because years later, you would think it’s impossible. But I’ll show you a picture on my phone, he was flawless. But I moved here partly because of Sylvester, because I knew him in L.A. And I just kept coming up to visit and I got a modeling job through Sylvester. So I had to get an apartment, and that was in 1979. I got my first apartment in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How much was rent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>My rent was $200.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>A month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. But yeah, Sylvester kind of changed the world. Sylvester sort of invented this sort of non-binary genderqueer thing that’s very popular right now. But Sylvester was the first one sort of publicly doing that. You know, he was a boy one day and a girl the next and a mustache the next and smooth shaving the next. And, you know, eventually became a star, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>No it’s so cool hearing about your story, especially with Sylvester at such a young age, holding you down, because really Sylvester is prolific here in San Francisco: huge musician, queer icon and a lot of folks don’t know this history about their gender queerness, possibly like non-binaryness and we can’t erase that and be simple in how we see gender or our community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>You know, I agree with you on that. It’s just that gay men have claimed Sylvester. But he also started as a trans woman, and I think that should be part of his story also, because that’s what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. You talked a bit about the conversation around just having to be stealth and not wanting to disclose because it’s honestly not people’s business, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> True.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How do you think that’s similar to now? Versus then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I think that for all the trans people that are out professing their transness, there’s just as equally as many trans people who are still living stealth. And I don’t think they have any plans on coming out, especially now, with the political climate the way it is. I want to go back stealth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> You would, or would not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I want to, but I’m on the internet now, so I can’t, but, you know, it’s scary times for us now, and things have gotten better for trans folks, but black trans women are still getting (beep) over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And are restricted and precluded from resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco, yes. San Francisco is fabulous if you’re a white gay man. It is Disneyland with the A-ticket and the Matterhorn and all of that, but for the rest of us, it’s just America. M-E-R-K-K-K-A. Oh, I forgot an I in there somewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so just know that as many trans people that you see on TV and Pose and everyone’s twerking and all that, there’s just as many people that are living stealth lives in the suburbs married. So when you hear people say, “I’ve never used the bathroom with somebody trans!” You probably have. They probably have, but.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Many a times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Many a times. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What advice do you have for Black trans girls today, especially for like building sisterhood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stay in school, that’s that’s your way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Mmm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s my message to young Black trans women, stay at school. And if you’re a teenager and they’re bullying you at school because you’re trans, you’re not gonna remember those (beep) in five years. You won’t even remember their names or their faces or anything. The people that bullied me when I was in high school, I wish somebody had told me, you’re not even going to remember them. But when you’re a teen, the present is everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> And you haven’t yet developed the ability to kind of foresee in the future. And so it’s all immediate. And the message is it will pass, you’ll survive it, and you won’t even remember them. Just stay in school, educate yourself. That’s undeniable. Stay in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Go as far as you can in school and my dream, my lottery-winning dream is to have a scholarship fund for black trans women. I had a dear friend named Dana Turner, who was a Black trans woman who went to Georgetown Law School, which is pretty impressive. I want to have it in, in her name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s been rewarding at the very least to get immersed in the history and the knowledge and the lineage of the work. And also that we have so many different folks to look to and different possibility models there’s ones as philanthropists, we have people who are cooks. We have people who are going to law school. We have who read books every week for 30 years. We have our different miniature worlds that we can create for ourselves and curate. It takes a lot of investment, but in the long term, it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I think, Zen, it’s important that we have conversations like this, because America teaches us not to really care about our old folks. As trans folks, we want to start a new model, an intergenerational model, an interaction where we really support and help each other. I want to see us moving in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Yeah, for the girls. We’re saving lives here. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got to save lives, and we got to let people know that transgender is nothing new. It’s always been part of the human condition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa, all the way to Africa. It’s interesting how contemporary Africans say that there’s no queers, there’s no African queers. But of course that’s not true. But Europeans brought, they didn’t bring queerness, they brought …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: and Andrea Horne together:\u003c/strong> homophobia and transphobia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>It was good continuing to build with you, Andrea, and you, Mei Mei. I will never forget. Don’t worry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I hope this is just the first conversation of many, because we really just scratched the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> We really did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Continues\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Transgender elder Andrea Horne, in conversation with Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old transgender activist from Oakland who works with the TGIJP Black Trans Cultural Center. The center was founded by Miss Major, a trailblazing Black trans activist and who passed away this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha with Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal\u003c/a> podcast for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the way, if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>. Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades Out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "SNAP Benefits Hung in Limbo for Weeks. It Was a Peek at Life Under Long-Term Cuts",
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"content": "\u003cp>She’d been waiting for over an hour, and Trozalla Smith was still nowhere near the front of the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Outside the East Oakland Collective’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061440/calfresh-snap-ebt-shutdown-find-food-banks-near-me-san-francisco-bay-area-alameda-oakland-contra-costa-newsom-national-guard\">food pantry,\u003c/a> the mass of people stretched half a block in either direction around her. Women with babies strapped to their backs shifted their weight from one foot to another, bored kids sat on the sidewalk, and elderly men stood stiffly in place as they waited to pick up whatever was left of that week’s offerings — fresh produce, instant ramen, milk and, if they were lucky, eggs and meat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was the end of October, and food pantries were absorbing the shock of around 5.5 million Californians anticipating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12060770/snap-calfresh-food-stamps-government-shutdown-november-payments-ebt\">delays to their federal food benefits\u003c/a> amid the government shutdown. Unsure of the status of her aid, Smith, 24, was relying entirely on pantries to feed herself and her boyfriend. “It’s our lifeline,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The uncertainty was only the latest reminder of how precarious life on the economic margins already is. The struggle to afford one of the country’s most expensive regions, with grocery prices still soaring, started long before the shutdown and will continue long after it finally ended on Nov. 12.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For two weeks, the country’s largest anti-hunger program hung in the balance — and it may have been only a glimpse of what’s to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Smith and thousands more across the Bay Area scrambled to get by during the shutdown, state leaders were wrestling with a more enduring threat to food aid: policy changes recently signed into law by President Trump that \u003ca href=\"https://calbudgetcenter.org/resources/federal-funding-cuts-to-snap-calfresh-will-have-sweeping-impacts-on-californians/?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">are expected to reduce\u003c/a> benefits for over 3 million California households.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064444\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064444\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00687_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00687_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00687_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00687_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith arrives at the Alameda Food Bank on Friday, Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>New eligibility limits and benefit reductions in the One Big Beautiful Bill Act \u003ca href=\"https://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Detail/5090\">mean some 400,000 to 750,000 Californians\u003c/a> could lose access to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program altogether, according to estimates by the state Legislative Analyst’s Office and policy experts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And all the recent attention on SNAP has \u003ca href=\"https://newrepublic.com/article/203120/trump-snap-food-stamps\">placed the program\u003c/a> in the Trump administration’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/11/14/trump-usda-snap-participants-reapply-benefits-00651874\">crosshairs\u003c/a>, leading many to brace for still more blows to food aid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These are unprecedented changes to the program that will have impacts for many years,” David Swanson Hollinger, chief deputy director at the California Department of Social Services, \u003ca href=\"https://www.senate.ca.gov/media-archive?time%5bmedia-element-18223%5d=2999.428751\">told a state Senate committee\u003c/a> last week, warning that lawmakers will have to “reimagine our path forward.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Everything is so expensive’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some of the newly enacted changes haven’t yet rolled out in California, and others are just beginning to take effect, but staff at the East Oakland Collective said they’d heard from several clients who unexpectedly had their benefits cut in October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Among them was Monica Thompson, a 64-year-old who has breast cancer and was one of the first to get in line that morning. Her assistance was cut from about $300 down to $24, she said, screwing up her face. “What can I do with $24?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the last week of October, the collective had already served 100 more families than usual, according to executive director Candice Elder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064446\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064446\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00936_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00936_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00936_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00936_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Shopping carts are parked around the Alameda Food Bank on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Standing in line that morning, a pregnant woman with a toddler in a stroller checked the state benefits app on her phone for updates. “November benefits will likely be delayed,” Taylor Ducote read, scrolling through the FAQs with exasperation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The fear that we have to live with every day until we find out if we’re going to get it or not … it’s just really nerve-wracking and scary for our kids,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ducote had just gotten housing four months earlier after half a decade of homelessness, and she wondered aloud how she’d pay her rent and utilities if she had to buy food out of pocket. Already, she was desperate by the end of the month.[aside postID=news_12061440 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/013_KQED_SanFranciscoMarinFoodBank_03182020_9229_qed.jpg']The night before, she said, she got caught stealing from a grocery store. She didn’t get arrested, but she was humiliated. “You think I want to be right here stealing so my son can get milk?” she had told the security guard. “Look what I’m stealing: toilet paper, diapers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few miles away, Ana Hoover, 54, stood in line at the Berkeley Food Pantry. She said she’d been out of work since December and was relying on food stamps, pantries and occasional gigs she found through an event staffing company or on NextDoor to make ends meet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every month, she used up her SNAP benefits at least two weeks before they were replenished.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like Ducote, the prospect of losing them altogether left her unsure about how she’d stay housed and take care of other basic needs. She’d been homeless for three years until recently, and she now pays $1,050 a month for a room at the YMCA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Everything is so expensive,” she said. “Food stamps doesn’t cover toothpaste, toothbrushes … [and] now the money is also going for food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064885\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064885\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPdelaysfeature00921_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPdelaysfeature00921_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPdelaysfeature00921_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPdelaysfeature00921_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith shops at the Alameda Food Bank on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The added stress of losing her $300 in food aid rippled across her life in ways big and small. It put more obstacles on her path back to the workforce. How would she pay for transportation to jobs? She rationed the mascara, lipstick and deodorant that gave her the confidence to go to interviews.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She had a gig coming up as an usher for an event at the Moscone Center, and she needed an all-black outfit. “I went into a panic because I’m like, ‘Oh, my God, I need to buy black shoes.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She aims to apply for three jobs a day. “I need to be focusing,” she said. “When you’re almost in a panic, how can you focus and how can you be productive?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The power of choice\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The next week, Smith pushed a shopping cart through the Alameda Food Bank. She had applied for CalFresh, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063660/california-moves-to-protect-calfresh-payments-from-federal-confusion-and-chaos\">California’s version of SNAP\u003c/a>, in early October, after she lost her job as a home health aide, and she received emergency benefits for the month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While she waited on approval, she created a daily schedule of food pantries and bused from one to another, patching together meals from the hodgepodge of dry goods and produce available and figuring out which were worth her time. This bank, with its brand new building and heaping bins of apples and potatoes, was one of the best she’d found.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064445\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064445\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00731_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00731_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00731_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00731_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith shops at the Alameda Food Bank on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today, she was most excited about the fresh strawberries — usually too expensive to buy, and often starting to mold by the time she found them at food pantries. Those pantries rely heavily on the Alameda County Community Food Bank, which fills their shelves with a mix of food from federal programs, donations, bulk farm purchases and surplus groceries that are sometimes on the verge of expiring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You have to eat it that day or the next, which makes it hard,” Smith said. These berries, though, looked perfectly fresh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each bin listed an item limit on the side, so Smith had learned to shop carefully. “You can get four apples,” she said, hunting through the bin for the largest she could find. “You’ll get fuller with a bigger apple, but they tend to be more bruised. It’s a bit like a scavenger hunt.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That the new, sprawling food bank was designed to mimic the experience of shopping wasn’t lost on Smith. “I like this place because it makes you feel more like a regular person,” she said. “You get to shop for your food.”[aside postID=news_12063723 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251110-COLLEGE-STUDENTS-CALFRESH-MD-01-KQED.jpg']She was grateful for the semblance of choice, but what the SNAP program provided was the real thing — something people pointed out again and again as they faced the prospect of going without their benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I get to cook. I refuse to go to them fast-food places,” said Anthony Cassidy, standing outside the food bank with a basket full of fruits and vegetables. “I like making stew.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 75-year-old Vietnam War veteran said he spent decades addicted to heroin, in and out of prison and homelessness, and was now sober and stably housed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m bound and determined to live out my days healthy and free,” he said. “SNAP has really helped me, allowed me to get some food that I like instead of stuff that I had to get.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a single week, Smith spent some 20 hours busing to and from six pantries, waiting in line and picking up food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My body’s tired today, really tired,” she said, the day after her trip to the Alameda Food Bank. She was back in East Oakland, making her way to the bus stop after visiting two food pantries on MacArthur Boulevard. She struggled under the weight of three heavy tote bags loaded with watermelon, butternut squash, potatoes and pears. In her free hand, she balanced a pizza, an unexpected pantry score.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s definitely going to hurt later on tonight,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064448\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064448\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01284_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01284_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01284_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01284_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith stands across advertisements for CalFresh as she holds her groceries from the Alameda Food Bank at the 12th Street BART Station in Oakland on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Smith has lupus, an autoimmune condition that makes her joints ache and some days, leaves her too exhausted to get out of bed. She was diagnosed at 8 years old, she said, after a series of mysterious rashes, fevers and aches had perplexed doctors for nearly two years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2023, the illness forced her to come home from college at Emory University in Atlanta. She developed pericarditis, a swelling of the tissue surrounding her heart, and doctors recommended she take a break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was on a lot of steroids, couldn’t walk at that point,” she said. Still, she was devastated to leave the school, where she was on a pre-med track. “I loved it so much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back home after a 30-minute bus ride and 10-minute walk, Smith and her boyfriend, 24-year-old Kelinde Secrease, hoisted the groceries onto the counter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She pulled eggs from a tote triumphantly. The pantries often ran out, and she’d gotten in line an hour and a half before the East Oakland Collective opened in order to bring these home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064450\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064450\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01577_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01577_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01577_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01577_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith puts away groceries from the Alameda food bank in her fridge at her family home in San Leandro on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A few days earlier, Secrease had caught himself doing something he hadn’t done in a long time: wondering what he wanted to eat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had a realization where I was like, wow — even being able to say ‘What do I want to eat?’ is a very powerful statement that I’m very grateful for,” he said. Before they’d learned to navigate the patchwork of pantries in the area, with Smith out of work and his own hours stuck at just 12 a week, food had been so limited that eating stopped feeling like a choice at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Having choices allowed him to enjoy food again. “It doesn’t feel so laborious having to eat because you’re eating something that you really don’t want to,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For people like Smith and Secrease, going without federal food aid doesn’t necessarily mean going hungry. But it pushes their already precarious budget to the breaking point, forcing them to scramble for rent and utilities, bus fare, tampons and toothpaste. Necessity strips away choice, and with it, the small freedoms that make life feel like more than survival. “When you have options, you have freedom,” Secrease said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the moment, the couple figured they had enough food to last them a week. Smith was relieved she’d have that time to focus on applying for jobs and tending to her health. But first they had to chop, freeze, roast and juice their way through the small mountain of produce to keep it from going to waste. After six hours in the kitchen, they had a freezer and refrigerator full of food.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Some relief, but uncertainty remains\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A week into November, Hoover stood in the YMCA residence’s shared kitchen, chopping onion, potato and bell pepper to add to a roasting pan where a whole chicken sizzled in the oven.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I love to cook, it’s one of my favorite things to do,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’d gotten the bird for under $10 at Trader Joe’s; the rest of the meal came from the Berkeley Food Pantry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064440\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064440\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00103_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00103_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00103_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00103_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ana Hoover checks out her groceries at her local Trader Joe’s in Berkeley on Thursday, Nov. 13, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With the month’s food stamps still in limbo amid federal court challenges and the ongoing government shutdown, she called the state’s EBT helpline, hoping for answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Your CalFresh balance is $0.61,” a recorded voice said. “You have one future benefit added to the account. CalFresh benefits available on Nov. 10 for $298.00.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oh, my God, what a lifesaver!” Hoover said. “Oh, my God.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She covered her face with her hands and burst into tears. “The stress level — feeling like, how am I going to do this,” she said. “You have no idea what relief.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064441\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064441\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00125_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00125_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00125_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00125_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ana Hoover, whose SNAP benefits were delayed by the government shutdown, uses her EBT card to pay for her groceries at her local Trader Joe’s in Berkeley on Nov. 13, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier that week, Smith had come home from a three-hour food pantry trip to a letter from the county. Her CalFresh benefits were being denied, the letter explained, because she had not submitted proof of income. She was deflated and frustrated. “I don’t understand. I don’t have any income,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By mid-November, Smith had landed a part-time nanny position, Secrease was working full-time, midnight to 7 a.m., training robots to fold clothes and bus tables, and Hoover was still picking up gigs while applying for jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Smith was again waiting to hear back about her CalFresh case after submitting new income documents, and Hoover had $58 left in her account — just enough to make a Thanksgiving meal with the free turkey she’d learned a local pantry was offering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064439\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064439\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00089_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00089_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00089_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00089_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ana Hoover shops at her local Trader Joe’s in Berkeley on Nov. 13, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For both women, the last month had deepened their distrust of a system meant to catch them when they fell. “I have always felt that these types of benefits could end anytime,” Hoover said, but that fear no longer feels hypothetical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Republicans have long sought to cut federal funding for food benefits, implement stricter work requirements and shift the burden to states. After Trump signed some of those restrictions into law this year, the shutdown showed what could follow if federal benefits are further curtailed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Smith took some comfort in knowing she found a way forward through sheer tenacity, but the effort had caused her lupus to flare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As she lay in bed, she hoped the food in the freezer would last long enough for her to recover. Then she’d pull up her pantry schedule, pack her tote bags and do it all over again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The shutdown is over, but the panic over delayed benefits is only the latest reminder of how precarious life is on the economic margins — and what could come under cuts by the Trump administration.",
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"title": "SNAP Benefits Hung in Limbo for Weeks. It Was a Peek at Life Under Long-Term Cuts | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>She’d been waiting for over an hour, and Trozalla Smith was still nowhere near the front of the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Outside the East Oakland Collective’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061440/calfresh-snap-ebt-shutdown-find-food-banks-near-me-san-francisco-bay-area-alameda-oakland-contra-costa-newsom-national-guard\">food pantry,\u003c/a> the mass of people stretched half a block in either direction around her. Women with babies strapped to their backs shifted their weight from one foot to another, bored kids sat on the sidewalk, and elderly men stood stiffly in place as they waited to pick up whatever was left of that week’s offerings — fresh produce, instant ramen, milk and, if they were lucky, eggs and meat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was the end of October, and food pantries were absorbing the shock of around 5.5 million Californians anticipating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12060770/snap-calfresh-food-stamps-government-shutdown-november-payments-ebt\">delays to their federal food benefits\u003c/a> amid the government shutdown. Unsure of the status of her aid, Smith, 24, was relying entirely on pantries to feed herself and her boyfriend. “It’s our lifeline,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The uncertainty was only the latest reminder of how precarious life on the economic margins already is. The struggle to afford one of the country’s most expensive regions, with grocery prices still soaring, started long before the shutdown and will continue long after it finally ended on Nov. 12.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For two weeks, the country’s largest anti-hunger program hung in the balance — and it may have been only a glimpse of what’s to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Smith and thousands more across the Bay Area scrambled to get by during the shutdown, state leaders were wrestling with a more enduring threat to food aid: policy changes recently signed into law by President Trump that \u003ca href=\"https://calbudgetcenter.org/resources/federal-funding-cuts-to-snap-calfresh-will-have-sweeping-impacts-on-californians/?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">are expected to reduce\u003c/a> benefits for over 3 million California households.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064444\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064444\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00687_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00687_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00687_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00687_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith arrives at the Alameda Food Bank on Friday, Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>New eligibility limits and benefit reductions in the One Big Beautiful Bill Act \u003ca href=\"https://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Detail/5090\">mean some 400,000 to 750,000 Californians\u003c/a> could lose access to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program altogether, according to estimates by the state Legislative Analyst’s Office and policy experts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And all the recent attention on SNAP has \u003ca href=\"https://newrepublic.com/article/203120/trump-snap-food-stamps\">placed the program\u003c/a> in the Trump administration’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/11/14/trump-usda-snap-participants-reapply-benefits-00651874\">crosshairs\u003c/a>, leading many to brace for still more blows to food aid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These are unprecedented changes to the program that will have impacts for many years,” David Swanson Hollinger, chief deputy director at the California Department of Social Services, \u003ca href=\"https://www.senate.ca.gov/media-archive?time%5bmedia-element-18223%5d=2999.428751\">told a state Senate committee\u003c/a> last week, warning that lawmakers will have to “reimagine our path forward.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Everything is so expensive’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some of the newly enacted changes haven’t yet rolled out in California, and others are just beginning to take effect, but staff at the East Oakland Collective said they’d heard from several clients who unexpectedly had their benefits cut in October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Among them was Monica Thompson, a 64-year-old who has breast cancer and was one of the first to get in line that morning. Her assistance was cut from about $300 down to $24, she said, screwing up her face. “What can I do with $24?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the last week of October, the collective had already served 100 more families than usual, according to executive director Candice Elder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064446\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064446\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00936_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00936_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00936_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00936_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Shopping carts are parked around the Alameda Food Bank on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Standing in line that morning, a pregnant woman with a toddler in a stroller checked the state benefits app on her phone for updates. “November benefits will likely be delayed,” Taylor Ducote read, scrolling through the FAQs with exasperation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The fear that we have to live with every day until we find out if we’re going to get it or not … it’s just really nerve-wracking and scary for our kids,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ducote had just gotten housing four months earlier after half a decade of homelessness, and she wondered aloud how she’d pay her rent and utilities if she had to buy food out of pocket. Already, she was desperate by the end of the month.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The night before, she said, she got caught stealing from a grocery store. She didn’t get arrested, but she was humiliated. “You think I want to be right here stealing so my son can get milk?” she had told the security guard. “Look what I’m stealing: toilet paper, diapers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few miles away, Ana Hoover, 54, stood in line at the Berkeley Food Pantry. She said she’d been out of work since December and was relying on food stamps, pantries and occasional gigs she found through an event staffing company or on NextDoor to make ends meet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every month, she used up her SNAP benefits at least two weeks before they were replenished.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like Ducote, the prospect of losing them altogether left her unsure about how she’d stay housed and take care of other basic needs. She’d been homeless for three years until recently, and she now pays $1,050 a month for a room at the YMCA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Everything is so expensive,” she said. “Food stamps doesn’t cover toothpaste, toothbrushes … [and] now the money is also going for food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064885\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064885\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPdelaysfeature00921_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPdelaysfeature00921_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPdelaysfeature00921_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPdelaysfeature00921_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith shops at the Alameda Food Bank on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The added stress of losing her $300 in food aid rippled across her life in ways big and small. It put more obstacles on her path back to the workforce. How would she pay for transportation to jobs? She rationed the mascara, lipstick and deodorant that gave her the confidence to go to interviews.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She had a gig coming up as an usher for an event at the Moscone Center, and she needed an all-black outfit. “I went into a panic because I’m like, ‘Oh, my God, I need to buy black shoes.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She aims to apply for three jobs a day. “I need to be focusing,” she said. “When you’re almost in a panic, how can you focus and how can you be productive?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The power of choice\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The next week, Smith pushed a shopping cart through the Alameda Food Bank. She had applied for CalFresh, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063660/california-moves-to-protect-calfresh-payments-from-federal-confusion-and-chaos\">California’s version of SNAP\u003c/a>, in early October, after she lost her job as a home health aide, and she received emergency benefits for the month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While she waited on approval, she created a daily schedule of food pantries and bused from one to another, patching together meals from the hodgepodge of dry goods and produce available and figuring out which were worth her time. This bank, with its brand new building and heaping bins of apples and potatoes, was one of the best she’d found.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064445\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064445\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00731_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00731_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00731_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00731_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith shops at the Alameda Food Bank on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today, she was most excited about the fresh strawberries — usually too expensive to buy, and often starting to mold by the time she found them at food pantries. Those pantries rely heavily on the Alameda County Community Food Bank, which fills their shelves with a mix of food from federal programs, donations, bulk farm purchases and surplus groceries that are sometimes on the verge of expiring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You have to eat it that day or the next, which makes it hard,” Smith said. These berries, though, looked perfectly fresh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each bin listed an item limit on the side, so Smith had learned to shop carefully. “You can get four apples,” she said, hunting through the bin for the largest she could find. “You’ll get fuller with a bigger apple, but they tend to be more bruised. It’s a bit like a scavenger hunt.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That the new, sprawling food bank was designed to mimic the experience of shopping wasn’t lost on Smith. “I like this place because it makes you feel more like a regular person,” she said. “You get to shop for your food.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>She was grateful for the semblance of choice, but what the SNAP program provided was the real thing — something people pointed out again and again as they faced the prospect of going without their benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I get to cook. I refuse to go to them fast-food places,” said Anthony Cassidy, standing outside the food bank with a basket full of fruits and vegetables. “I like making stew.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 75-year-old Vietnam War veteran said he spent decades addicted to heroin, in and out of prison and homelessness, and was now sober and stably housed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m bound and determined to live out my days healthy and free,” he said. “SNAP has really helped me, allowed me to get some food that I like instead of stuff that I had to get.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a single week, Smith spent some 20 hours busing to and from six pantries, waiting in line and picking up food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My body’s tired today, really tired,” she said, the day after her trip to the Alameda Food Bank. She was back in East Oakland, making her way to the bus stop after visiting two food pantries on MacArthur Boulevard. She struggled under the weight of three heavy tote bags loaded with watermelon, butternut squash, potatoes and pears. In her free hand, she balanced a pizza, an unexpected pantry score.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s definitely going to hurt later on tonight,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064448\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064448\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01284_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01284_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01284_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01284_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith stands across advertisements for CalFresh as she holds her groceries from the Alameda Food Bank at the 12th Street BART Station in Oakland on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Smith has lupus, an autoimmune condition that makes her joints ache and some days, leaves her too exhausted to get out of bed. She was diagnosed at 8 years old, she said, after a series of mysterious rashes, fevers and aches had perplexed doctors for nearly two years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2023, the illness forced her to come home from college at Emory University in Atlanta. She developed pericarditis, a swelling of the tissue surrounding her heart, and doctors recommended she take a break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was on a lot of steroids, couldn’t walk at that point,” she said. Still, she was devastated to leave the school, where she was on a pre-med track. “I loved it so much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back home after a 30-minute bus ride and 10-minute walk, Smith and her boyfriend, 24-year-old Kelinde Secrease, hoisted the groceries onto the counter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She pulled eggs from a tote triumphantly. The pantries often ran out, and she’d gotten in line an hour and a half before the East Oakland Collective opened in order to bring these home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064450\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064450\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01577_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01577_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01577_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE01577_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Trozalla Smith puts away groceries from the Alameda food bank in her fridge at her family home in San Leandro on Nov. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A few days earlier, Secrease had caught himself doing something he hadn’t done in a long time: wondering what he wanted to eat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had a realization where I was like, wow — even being able to say ‘What do I want to eat?’ is a very powerful statement that I’m very grateful for,” he said. Before they’d learned to navigate the patchwork of pantries in the area, with Smith out of work and his own hours stuck at just 12 a week, food had been so limited that eating stopped feeling like a choice at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Having choices allowed him to enjoy food again. “It doesn’t feel so laborious having to eat because you’re eating something that you really don’t want to,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For people like Smith and Secrease, going without federal food aid doesn’t necessarily mean going hungry. But it pushes their already precarious budget to the breaking point, forcing them to scramble for rent and utilities, bus fare, tampons and toothpaste. Necessity strips away choice, and with it, the small freedoms that make life feel like more than survival. “When you have options, you have freedom,” Secrease said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the moment, the couple figured they had enough food to last them a week. Smith was relieved she’d have that time to focus on applying for jobs and tending to her health. But first they had to chop, freeze, roast and juice their way through the small mountain of produce to keep it from going to waste. After six hours in the kitchen, they had a freezer and refrigerator full of food.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Some relief, but uncertainty remains\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A week into November, Hoover stood in the YMCA residence’s shared kitchen, chopping onion, potato and bell pepper to add to a roasting pan where a whole chicken sizzled in the oven.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I love to cook, it’s one of my favorite things to do,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’d gotten the bird for under $10 at Trader Joe’s; the rest of the meal came from the Berkeley Food Pantry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064440\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064440\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00103_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00103_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00103_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00103_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ana Hoover checks out her groceries at her local Trader Joe’s in Berkeley on Thursday, Nov. 13, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With the month’s food stamps still in limbo amid federal court challenges and the ongoing government shutdown, she called the state’s EBT helpline, hoping for answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Your CalFresh balance is $0.61,” a recorded voice said. “You have one future benefit added to the account. CalFresh benefits available on Nov. 10 for $298.00.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oh, my God, what a lifesaver!” Hoover said. “Oh, my God.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She covered her face with her hands and burst into tears. “The stress level — feeling like, how am I going to do this,” she said. “You have no idea what relief.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064441\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064441\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00125_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00125_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00125_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00125_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ana Hoover, whose SNAP benefits were delayed by the government shutdown, uses her EBT card to pay for her groceries at her local Trader Joe’s in Berkeley on Nov. 13, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier that week, Smith had come home from a three-hour food pantry trip to a letter from the county. Her CalFresh benefits were being denied, the letter explained, because she had not submitted proof of income. She was deflated and frustrated. “I don’t understand. I don’t have any income,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By mid-November, Smith had landed a part-time nanny position, Secrease was working full-time, midnight to 7 a.m., training robots to fold clothes and bus tables, and Hoover was still picking up gigs while applying for jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Smith was again waiting to hear back about her CalFresh case after submitting new income documents, and Hoover had $58 left in her account — just enough to make a Thanksgiving meal with the free turkey she’d learned a local pantry was offering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064439\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064439\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00089_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00089_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00089_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251113-SNAPDELAYSFEATURE00089_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ana Hoover shops at her local Trader Joe’s in Berkeley on Nov. 13, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For both women, the last month had deepened their distrust of a system meant to catch them when they fell. “I have always felt that these types of benefits could end anytime,” Hoover said, but that fear no longer feels hypothetical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Republicans have long sought to cut federal funding for food benefits, implement stricter work requirements and shift the burden to states. After Trump signed some of those restrictions into law this year, the shutdown showed what could follow if federal benefits are further curtailed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Smith took some comfort in knowing she found a way forward through sheer tenacity, but the effort had caused her lupus to flare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As she lay in bed, she hoped the food in the freezer would last long enough for her to recover. Then she’d pull up her pantry schedule, pack her tote bags and do it all over again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations",
"title": "'It's Self-Love': Trans Elder Donna Personna Shares Advice With a Younger Generation",
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"headTitle": "‘It’s Self-Love’: Trans Elder Donna Personna Shares Advice With a Younger Generation | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we enter \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13977169/transgender-history-bay-area-san-francisco-lgbtq-trans-bay\">Transgender Awareness Month\u003c/a>, we shift the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties in conversation with transgender elders whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we meet \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13960471/donna-personna-interview-lgbtq-history\">Donna Personna\u003c/a>, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana artist, activist and playwright who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco. A longtime drag performer and advocate, Donna has devoted decades to uplifting the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.sfpride.org/press/RELEASE-Community-Grand-Marshal-Announcement-SF-Pride-2019-FINAL.pdf\">Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshal of the San Francisco Pride Parade\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also co-wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.comptonscafeteriariot.com/\">Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/a>, an immersive play that brings to life a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/11838357/in-66-on-one-hot-august-night-trans-women-fought-for-their-rights\">1966 uprising in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District\u003c/a> — when trans women and drag queens stood up to police harassment, three years before Stonewall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of Donna Personna from 2014 is displayed at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Donna speaks with Quetzali (who also goes by “Q”), a 23-year-old Latinx nonbinary organizer from Sacramento who uses they/them/elle pronouns and who is using only their first name to protect their identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they reflect on how Latinx gender-expansive identities have evolved across generations, from quiet survival in the shadows to living freely. Donna also shares how she continues to cultivate self-love and resilience in a world that still tests both — grounding today’s struggles in a lifetime of resistance, care and optimism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>79-year-old Donna Personna (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>23-year-old Quetzali (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8007728606\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> I’m Sasha Khokha, this is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. The series is called “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, as we continue to mark Transgender Awareness month, we’re going to hear young people in their 20s in conversation with transgender elders. Their lives reflect the long arc of transgender and LGBTQ+ activism here in California.[aside postID=news_12061805 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/1.png']And a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in “Love You for You.” So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with kids. This week, we hear from Donna Personna, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana activist who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s a celebrated drag performer, artist, and playwright and she’s devoted decades of her life to activism for the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshall of the San Francisco Pride Parade. She also co-wrote the immersive play Compton’s Cafeteria Riot. It’s about a 1966 uprising when transgender women in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District stood up to police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice, I’d hammer out freedom, I’d hammer out love.” (singing)\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nOften called the “Stonewall of the West,” the Compton’s Cafeteria riot marked a turning point for transgender visibility and rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice…” (singing)]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>We’re going to hear Donna in conversation with Quetzali, a 23-year-old Latinx, nonbinary activist from Sacramento, who also goes by Q and uses the pronouns they/them/elle. Just a note, we’re only using Quetzali’s first name to protect their identity. Donna and Quetzali reflect on cultivating self-love and resilience in a world that continues to test both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you’re an amazing artist, a prominent transgender rights activist. You’ve used many different mediums of art to share important messages about civil rights, equity, inclusion. And I do hope that I can learn a lot from, you know, everything that you’ve been through and all of your wisdom and guidance and teachings. And so, I would like to start off by asking you how old you were when you came out and what was it like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Okay, well, I was born in 1946, and at that time, there was no community. In fact, it was not a thing to be homosexual or gay. And when it was brought up, it was an aberration. It was rebellious. And what I read was that a child that shows these signs should be separated from the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Where did you read that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>In a book in our home, we had a library and there was a medical book in there and I love to read. I mean, my father was a Baptist minister, and as a 10-year-old boy at that time, when I read that maybe this child should be separated from the family, I thought that I could ruin my family. That was on my shoulders. So I never breathed a word about that. And there was no one to talk to anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1270\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-1536x975.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So it took me 59, at the age of 59, I came out. If you want to call it that, but I resent that, you know, coming out. Where was I to come out of? But so to answer your question. Now I’ll ask you, when did you come out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>From a very young age, my parents have always been very supportive in a way in which I express myself, and so I feel like I’ve always been me. You know, there was really never that sort of time where I’m like, okay, I’m not myself or I have to be somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Q, you use the pronouns they, them. Can you tell me more about your gender identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>So as someone who is trying to get in deeper touch with their roots and practice sort of like more like indigenous native ways. I feel like I don’t align very much with Western gender binary. And so before the Spanish colonization, gender in many Mexican Indigenous cultures was not strictly binary, right, similarly to how here in North America, Indigenous tribes have, right, like the two-spirit gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I learn more from my elders in my community, I found that I deeply resonated with the idea of not being seen as a man or a woman and this sort of unique cultural identity that embodies both the masculine and the feminine and is sort of like a bridge between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>That makes sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I feel like part of the reason why I didn’t formally come out, especially to the older generation of my family, is because I do worry, right, about their reactions, right? Like my parents, my sister, my inner circle of friends and close family, my chosen family all accept me as I am, but because our culture, right, is rooted in machismo. And violent patriarchal ideology, I worry about coming out to the rest of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, I want to say that when the coming out, I’m old, I’m saying at 79, I was always this way and you know, the way that I wanna teach people if they need to, and I’ll say that I’m invited to, institutions that are now accepting transgender, gay people into their old folks’ homes, I’ll say. l, I teach the staff, don’t ask somebody about their preference, sexual preference because you know that that implies a choice see who I am was not a choice. It’s who I was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I resonate with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, like I heard you say, accepted, I am not here to be accepted. I come for approval. I don’t care about approval. I come pre-approved. So that’s an aggression too. Like, oh, when did you want acceptance? No, not from you. I’m rebellious in that sense. Like the thing is, whether or not I accept you, you know. Who gave you the power to accept me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>My father was a Baptist minister, my mother was a preacher’s wife. But also in my home, as it sounds like what happened to you, I got total, unconditional love. Yeah, unconditional love. And, you know, my brothers, my brothers were football players, amateur boxers, wrestlers. Never did any one of them ever say to me, “We wish you would act another way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s where I learned that this is where I belong. And so what’s happening outside, in a way, doesn’t matter, but I wanna stay safe. I wanna to stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Did you ever talk to your family about your gender or sexual identity with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>No, I didn’t. I was in my own universe. There was nobody else in this universe. I had stories, you now, I’m gonna say they were secrets, kind of, that I did not give life to. And so, no, I didn’t tell my brothers and sisters and my mother and my father. But I do say this, my mother was my best friend. And I feel that she knew something that she wasn’t saying. Like, she was very protective of me. And I used to, I like to say, I was my mother’s favorite. But I had 14 brothers and sisters say, no, I was the favorite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And I can relate with you on being very close to my mother, my mother and my sister [are] also my best friends and I also didn’t formally come out to anybody but when I took a human sexuality class in university, I actually feel like I got to understand both of my parents better, right? We had an assignment and I offhandedly asked my parents a question about, you know, their own sexual identities their own…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna: \u003c/b>You did?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes, and we actually had a great conversation, a very long conversation right at the dinner table and I feel like I’m very grateful for that time and for that class because I feel like otherwise I wouldn’t have got to know my parents, especially my mother, on a deeper level like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I’m happy that that happened for you. In my case, my parents, nobody in my family ever talked about anything about sex. I didn’t have that, I’m going to teach you about the birds and the bees and tamales. No, there was no conversation like that. And that’s just the way it was. I’m glad for you that you had that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali\u003c/b>: So do you think that you being Latina, you being Mexicana has impacted your sexual identity or your gender identity in a way that, or in any way, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I learned gentility, you know, and being kind and respecting each other. And the other thing that one of the things learned the most was do for other people. Nothing that you do is for yourself. Bring other people with you. Make this a better world. And you know, my father is a Baptist minister. Every week that I heard that, and you know I used to resent it as a child because, like my father, and I’m so proud of this, he founded nine churches in his lifetime, nine. Some of them are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Fantastic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yes. People go to that place for shelter, for comfort, for help and to feel good about themselves. And I saw it over and over and again. Like a young woman would come to the church and her husband left her or something, she comes with her kids, her children. They found her a place to live. They connected her to a job, things like that. So, you know, without anybody, and my mother and father never told me, ever, did they say, ‘This is what we want you to do.’ They never did. It was modeling, they call modeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Okay, so Donna, are you religious and does religion play a role in how you navigate your life then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I’m not religious, but I’m a saint. No, that’s a joke. I’m not religious because, and you know, I was a rebel. See, like, that’s another thing about me. I’m never anything but me, and that’s been all my life. And that gets me in trouble sometimes. The Sunday school teacher one day was talking about, saying dancing is bad. They said dancing leads to sex, basically. That’s what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a teenager. I liked to dance, and I didn’t want to think that’s a bad thing. At that time, we were planning a ski trip, our class, Sunday school class. The Sunday school teacher said, “What would you think if you saw Jesus dancing at one of your teen club dances?” And I said, “Well, how would it look if Jesus was skiing, going down a slope, ski slope, with his long hair and a long dress?” (Laughs) So they kicked me out of that church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you moved to San Francisco in the early ’60s as a teenager and found community at a diner called Compton’s Cafeteria in the Tenderloin. I didn’t really know much about that, the Stonewall of California, until I saw the play that you co-wrote about the violent and constant police brutality and harassment of trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from the play fades in\u003cbr>\n“Why, why do you have to be like this? What did we do to you? somebody must have loved you at some point in your life. Are you finished, little girl? \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>It was amazingly produced. It evoked a lot of strong emotions about complex topics that, unfortunately, still persist today. The character Rusty is based on your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Persona: \u003c/b>Yes, yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>“I’m not supposed to be here. My parents they would be out of their minds, my father is a preacher for God’s sake.” \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Could you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be out during the 60s and what it was [like] at Compton’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I wanted to get away from San José and my mother and father and my brothers and sisters. And I wanted to explore what was going on. I was a little girl inside. And I want to explore that, but I didn’t want to do that in front of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I took a Greyhound bus when I was 16, 17 years old. I’ll make a joke about it. I’ll say, Mom, I’m going to go to a young men’s group, a church, okay? I’ll be gone for a while. Then I got on a Greyhound bus and I came to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I walked around and I didn’t know what to do, and I came upon Compton’s, and Compton was an all-night diner in the Tenderloin. I walked in there, and I’ll say it like this, this is not kosher these days or culturally appropriate, but I was deceived. I saw these beautiful women and it turned out they were born males. Well, I became friends with them. I kept going there week after week after week. And I heard their stories. We would sit at the table drinking coffee and [eating] toast, staying there for hours, and I heard their stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003cbr>\n“If my family ever found out anything about this, they’d get an exorcist. I wish I were kidding.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Donna, in the play, the character based on you, Rusty, is much younger and innocent. Being taught by other elders in the community about the hardships and the realities that trans women face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like I’m leading a double life. Maybe I should just go home, something bad is gonna happen, I can feel it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> How do you feel about seeing yourself portrayed as that younger version [of] you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I still relate to the Rusty character. That’s someone who doesn’t know the ropes and who doesn’t want to hurt their family, don’t want to bring danger to their family. I want the world to know that people like me and you are throwaways, or the world doesn’t care about us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And so people can exploit us, they can harm us, and nobody is gonna care too much about it. And so I wanted that to be told. Our story is really not a story about transgender people in my mind. It’s a story about humans, people being human. I really want the world to know that transgender people are wonderful people. They’re ordinary people. They’re like everybody else, and they want only those things that everybody else gets invited to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t know a lot of these experiences at your age and where you come from and how you’ve lived, but that’s where I came from, and so down deep inside me I’m still that little Rusty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>How were you able to create a safe space for yourself in the community and foster that sense of camaraderie and safety among by other queer individuals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I, this is gonna sound conceited, because I am, I guess, I was always popular. I was the popular one. As a teenager, everybody liked me, and everybody wanted to be my friends, boys and girls and men and women. And I used to get invited to all these parties. It’s not unlike today. I had my choice of parties on Saturday night because when I went to a party, I would go up to the girls and say, “Let’s dance.” I started the dancing, I broke the ice for everybody. And so I always liked myself. It’s self-love. And that’s not a bad thing, and not on my block. But, and I used to have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but I made it light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Q, you asked me about community and how it was for me. I’d like to know where you found community and like-minded people for you when you were younger than you are now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And so, you know, thankfully, because of my upbringing, both of my parents are human rights activists, and so I was exposed to a diverse group of people from many different walks of life, and I was fortunate to be able to find mentors and elders that would give me love and guidance. But unfortunately, I haven’t really participated a lot in the queer community or queer activism due to the predominantly white nature of these spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Do you have any advice, or what other advice do you have for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience, about getting through these tough times, about being smarter, right? What sort of tidbits of wisdom do you give in this regard?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>The basic thing I would say is, first and foremost, love yourself. Love yourself. And I promise you, people will love you. Know that you have a right. You’re not asking for something, ‘maybe someday people will let me do this or let me do that or let me be this.’ No. You’re a human being and you deserve it all. I’ve had a cab driver told me, a transgender woman told me I don’t expect to live over 35. I said, I said, you know, I’m in my seventies. I’m not, they don’t just let me live. I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And that’s because, and I would say, don’t be a victim. And I compare it to the animal kingdom. Like, I’m sorry to say that, but that’s the way it is. They look for the weakest one. And they say, let’s gnaw on this one. So I’m not a victim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim. Identify as a warrior, a fighter. And also, I would say, bring other people with you. Don’t do anything alone. You’re gonna be stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So find community and do things not for you. You know that sounds strong, but like really and truly. I don’t do anything. I don’t think I do anything for myself. I have it all, but I’m doing it for you. And I think that that’s lovely. I think it’s lovely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Sometimes it’s very easy to fall into the disappointment to only focus on the negativity and so it is really important to find your community, to find resilience, to find hope. And speaking of hope, do you feel more or less hopeful about the future of trans and gender expansive people now than before, especially considering our current administration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I want to ask you the same question. How do you feel about that for yourself in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>You, for me, are one of the giants of the movement, the human rights movement focusing on queer transgender individuals. And so it is really important to acknowledge and validate all of the work that our elders have done for us. There are definitely still things that we need to work on to improve together, right? Mobilize to unify, and you know to continue to protest and to fight for these rights that everybody deserves. Everybody deserves dignity and respect, regardless of how they choose to identify themselves, because we’re human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I do feel hopeful. The play actually gave me a sort of boost of radical optimism. It’s important, you know, to continue to fight because there are other Rustys out there, you know, trying to figure out how to navigate the world being who they are. And so I do feel hopeful, and I feel that things can still continue to change for the better at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Harvey Milk, you know, was famous for saying, “You gotta give them hope.” Hope is essential, and you know, I, neither I nor you, I can’t see tomorrow, I can see next week. But I can fill it with, and I got to get up in the morning and go do something. We need it now more than ever. That’s how I feel. Because I would say something that’s different today than 50 years ago. I heard this somewhere, like the shy, I think they called it the shy Republican. Like, people weren’t telling me what they were thinking of me. Well, now they’re not shy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And you know, that’s good and bad. I know my enemy, whereas I didn’t before. Right, so I take hope and this knowledge and like, yes, I need to know where I stand with you. But I, you know, on a very personal level, I am very terrified for myself. Because it’s out there. In a way, nothing has changed. We’ve come back, and I’ll say this, that man that just got killed, Charlie Kirk, I saw on the news the first moments after it happened. A news reporter talked to a student, a white young, white woman with bleached, blonde hair. And she said, oh, he was talking about how transgender people are the most violent, among the most violent people and do the most crimes in this country. What? You know, like I would have said, “Give me the names. Name some of these transgender people that are the most violent.” Me, Donna Personna, I’ve never slapped anyone in my life. I never have. Anyway, that, like, wow, and we have to push against that. So I’m hopeful, but I’m frightened out of my mind, and I have to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, I’d like to give you a really heartfelt thank you for speaking with me, for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with me for continuing to be a fearless advocate for our community and I feel very empowered by you. I feel very hopeful. I feel very optimistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>You’re welcome for that, Q, and I want to say, encouraged by you just being here. You know, I’ve done a lot. I’ve had many, many adventures where I was nervous, scared, and thinking, am I gonna come through? And to see you here right now, I understand that you are out of your comfort zone and you’re willing to go there for the greater good. And I’m also recognized that I’m going to get tired at some point. I only want to live to be 105 or something. I look at you and I think, I can see that they are going to be doing this for the next 50, 60 years. And that really encourages me, makes me feel good. And I appreciate that, and I want to thank you for that right now. You’re very intelligent, or I don’t need to say that, but I like your intelligence and you know what’s what and how to reach out to other people and have them hear you. So I’m grateful for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And thank you so much, that really means so much to me, Donna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Did that feel good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes. Yes. How does it feel to you? I was going to cry at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel, you know, like we’re friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>No, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel like we are friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Celebrated transgender elder Donna Personna, in conversation with Quetzali, a youth activist from Sacramento. \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And thats it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast,\u003c/a> for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Robert Chehoski, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series in our podcast feed. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we enter \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13977169/transgender-history-bay-area-san-francisco-lgbtq-trans-bay\">Transgender Awareness Month\u003c/a>, we shift the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties in conversation with transgender elders whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we meet \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13960471/donna-personna-interview-lgbtq-history\">Donna Personna\u003c/a>, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana artist, activist and playwright who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco. A longtime drag performer and advocate, Donna has devoted decades to uplifting the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.sfpride.org/press/RELEASE-Community-Grand-Marshal-Announcement-SF-Pride-2019-FINAL.pdf\">Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshal of the San Francisco Pride Parade\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also co-wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.comptonscafeteriariot.com/\">Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/a>, an immersive play that brings to life a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/11838357/in-66-on-one-hot-august-night-trans-women-fought-for-their-rights\">1966 uprising in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District\u003c/a> — when trans women and drag queens stood up to police harassment, three years before Stonewall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of Donna Personna from 2014 is displayed at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Donna speaks with Quetzali (who also goes by “Q”), a 23-year-old Latinx nonbinary organizer from Sacramento who uses they/them/elle pronouns and who is using only their first name to protect their identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they reflect on how Latinx gender-expansive identities have evolved across generations, from quiet survival in the shadows to living freely. Donna also shares how she continues to cultivate self-love and resilience in a world that still tests both — grounding today’s struggles in a lifetime of resistance, care and optimism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>79-year-old Donna Personna (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>23-year-old Quetzali (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8007728606\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> I’m Sasha Khokha, this is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. The series is called “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, as we continue to mark Transgender Awareness month, we’re going to hear young people in their 20s in conversation with transgender elders. Their lives reflect the long arc of transgender and LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in “Love You for You.” So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with kids. This week, we hear from Donna Personna, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana activist who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s a celebrated drag performer, artist, and playwright and she’s devoted decades of her life to activism for the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshall of the San Francisco Pride Parade. She also co-wrote the immersive play Compton’s Cafeteria Riot. It’s about a 1966 uprising when transgender women in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District stood up to police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice, I’d hammer out freedom, I’d hammer out love.” (singing)\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nOften called the “Stonewall of the West,” the Compton’s Cafeteria riot marked a turning point for transgender visibility and rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice…” (singing)]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>We’re going to hear Donna in conversation with Quetzali, a 23-year-old Latinx, nonbinary activist from Sacramento, who also goes by Q and uses the pronouns they/them/elle. Just a note, we’re only using Quetzali’s first name to protect their identity. Donna and Quetzali reflect on cultivating self-love and resilience in a world that continues to test both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you’re an amazing artist, a prominent transgender rights activist. You’ve used many different mediums of art to share important messages about civil rights, equity, inclusion. And I do hope that I can learn a lot from, you know, everything that you’ve been through and all of your wisdom and guidance and teachings. And so, I would like to start off by asking you how old you were when you came out and what was it like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Okay, well, I was born in 1946, and at that time, there was no community. In fact, it was not a thing to be homosexual or gay. And when it was brought up, it was an aberration. It was rebellious. And what I read was that a child that shows these signs should be separated from the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Where did you read that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>In a book in our home, we had a library and there was a medical book in there and I love to read. I mean, my father was a Baptist minister, and as a 10-year-old boy at that time, when I read that maybe this child should be separated from the family, I thought that I could ruin my family. That was on my shoulders. So I never breathed a word about that. And there was no one to talk to anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1270\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-1536x975.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So it took me 59, at the age of 59, I came out. If you want to call it that, but I resent that, you know, coming out. Where was I to come out of? But so to answer your question. Now I’ll ask you, when did you come out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>From a very young age, my parents have always been very supportive in a way in which I express myself, and so I feel like I’ve always been me. You know, there was really never that sort of time where I’m like, okay, I’m not myself or I have to be somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Q, you use the pronouns they, them. Can you tell me more about your gender identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>So as someone who is trying to get in deeper touch with their roots and practice sort of like more like indigenous native ways. I feel like I don’t align very much with Western gender binary. And so before the Spanish colonization, gender in many Mexican Indigenous cultures was not strictly binary, right, similarly to how here in North America, Indigenous tribes have, right, like the two-spirit gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I learn more from my elders in my community, I found that I deeply resonated with the idea of not being seen as a man or a woman and this sort of unique cultural identity that embodies both the masculine and the feminine and is sort of like a bridge between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>That makes sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I feel like part of the reason why I didn’t formally come out, especially to the older generation of my family, is because I do worry, right, about their reactions, right? Like my parents, my sister, my inner circle of friends and close family, my chosen family all accept me as I am, but because our culture, right, is rooted in machismo. And violent patriarchal ideology, I worry about coming out to the rest of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, I want to say that when the coming out, I’m old, I’m saying at 79, I was always this way and you know, the way that I wanna teach people if they need to, and I’ll say that I’m invited to, institutions that are now accepting transgender, gay people into their old folks’ homes, I’ll say. l, I teach the staff, don’t ask somebody about their preference, sexual preference because you know that that implies a choice see who I am was not a choice. It’s who I was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I resonate with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, like I heard you say, accepted, I am not here to be accepted. I come for approval. I don’t care about approval. I come pre-approved. So that’s an aggression too. Like, oh, when did you want acceptance? No, not from you. I’m rebellious in that sense. Like the thing is, whether or not I accept you, you know. Who gave you the power to accept me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>My father was a Baptist minister, my mother was a preacher’s wife. But also in my home, as it sounds like what happened to you, I got total, unconditional love. Yeah, unconditional love. And, you know, my brothers, my brothers were football players, amateur boxers, wrestlers. Never did any one of them ever say to me, “We wish you would act another way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s where I learned that this is where I belong. And so what’s happening outside, in a way, doesn’t matter, but I wanna stay safe. I wanna to stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Did you ever talk to your family about your gender or sexual identity with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>No, I didn’t. I was in my own universe. There was nobody else in this universe. I had stories, you now, I’m gonna say they were secrets, kind of, that I did not give life to. And so, no, I didn’t tell my brothers and sisters and my mother and my father. But I do say this, my mother was my best friend. And I feel that she knew something that she wasn’t saying. Like, she was very protective of me. And I used to, I like to say, I was my mother’s favorite. But I had 14 brothers and sisters say, no, I was the favorite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And I can relate with you on being very close to my mother, my mother and my sister [are] also my best friends and I also didn’t formally come out to anybody but when I took a human sexuality class in university, I actually feel like I got to understand both of my parents better, right? We had an assignment and I offhandedly asked my parents a question about, you know, their own sexual identities their own…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna: \u003c/b>You did?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes, and we actually had a great conversation, a very long conversation right at the dinner table and I feel like I’m very grateful for that time and for that class because I feel like otherwise I wouldn’t have got to know my parents, especially my mother, on a deeper level like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I’m happy that that happened for you. In my case, my parents, nobody in my family ever talked about anything about sex. I didn’t have that, I’m going to teach you about the birds and the bees and tamales. No, there was no conversation like that. And that’s just the way it was. I’m glad for you that you had that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali\u003c/b>: So do you think that you being Latina, you being Mexicana has impacted your sexual identity or your gender identity in a way that, or in any way, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I learned gentility, you know, and being kind and respecting each other. And the other thing that one of the things learned the most was do for other people. Nothing that you do is for yourself. Bring other people with you. Make this a better world. And you know, my father is a Baptist minister. Every week that I heard that, and you know I used to resent it as a child because, like my father, and I’m so proud of this, he founded nine churches in his lifetime, nine. Some of them are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Fantastic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yes. People go to that place for shelter, for comfort, for help and to feel good about themselves. And I saw it over and over and again. Like a young woman would come to the church and her husband left her or something, she comes with her kids, her children. They found her a place to live. They connected her to a job, things like that. So, you know, without anybody, and my mother and father never told me, ever, did they say, ‘This is what we want you to do.’ They never did. It was modeling, they call modeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Okay, so Donna, are you religious and does religion play a role in how you navigate your life then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I’m not religious, but I’m a saint. No, that’s a joke. I’m not religious because, and you know, I was a rebel. See, like, that’s another thing about me. I’m never anything but me, and that’s been all my life. And that gets me in trouble sometimes. The Sunday school teacher one day was talking about, saying dancing is bad. They said dancing leads to sex, basically. That’s what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a teenager. I liked to dance, and I didn’t want to think that’s a bad thing. At that time, we were planning a ski trip, our class, Sunday school class. The Sunday school teacher said, “What would you think if you saw Jesus dancing at one of your teen club dances?” And I said, “Well, how would it look if Jesus was skiing, going down a slope, ski slope, with his long hair and a long dress?” (Laughs) So they kicked me out of that church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you moved to San Francisco in the early ’60s as a teenager and found community at a diner called Compton’s Cafeteria in the Tenderloin. I didn’t really know much about that, the Stonewall of California, until I saw the play that you co-wrote about the violent and constant police brutality and harassment of trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from the play fades in\u003cbr>\n“Why, why do you have to be like this? What did we do to you? somebody must have loved you at some point in your life. Are you finished, little girl? \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>It was amazingly produced. It evoked a lot of strong emotions about complex topics that, unfortunately, still persist today. The character Rusty is based on your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Persona: \u003c/b>Yes, yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>“I’m not supposed to be here. My parents they would be out of their minds, my father is a preacher for God’s sake.” \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Could you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be out during the 60s and what it was [like] at Compton’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I wanted to get away from San José and my mother and father and my brothers and sisters. And I wanted to explore what was going on. I was a little girl inside. And I want to explore that, but I didn’t want to do that in front of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I took a Greyhound bus when I was 16, 17 years old. I’ll make a joke about it. I’ll say, Mom, I’m going to go to a young men’s group, a church, okay? I’ll be gone for a while. Then I got on a Greyhound bus and I came to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I walked around and I didn’t know what to do, and I came upon Compton’s, and Compton was an all-night diner in the Tenderloin. I walked in there, and I’ll say it like this, this is not kosher these days or culturally appropriate, but I was deceived. I saw these beautiful women and it turned out they were born males. Well, I became friends with them. I kept going there week after week after week. And I heard their stories. We would sit at the table drinking coffee and [eating] toast, staying there for hours, and I heard their stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003cbr>\n“If my family ever found out anything about this, they’d get an exorcist. I wish I were kidding.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Donna, in the play, the character based on you, Rusty, is much younger and innocent. Being taught by other elders in the community about the hardships and the realities that trans women face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like I’m leading a double life. Maybe I should just go home, something bad is gonna happen, I can feel it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> How do you feel about seeing yourself portrayed as that younger version [of] you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I still relate to the Rusty character. That’s someone who doesn’t know the ropes and who doesn’t want to hurt their family, don’t want to bring danger to their family. I want the world to know that people like me and you are throwaways, or the world doesn’t care about us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And so people can exploit us, they can harm us, and nobody is gonna care too much about it. And so I wanted that to be told. Our story is really not a story about transgender people in my mind. It’s a story about humans, people being human. I really want the world to know that transgender people are wonderful people. They’re ordinary people. They’re like everybody else, and they want only those things that everybody else gets invited to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t know a lot of these experiences at your age and where you come from and how you’ve lived, but that’s where I came from, and so down deep inside me I’m still that little Rusty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>How were you able to create a safe space for yourself in the community and foster that sense of camaraderie and safety among by other queer individuals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I, this is gonna sound conceited, because I am, I guess, I was always popular. I was the popular one. As a teenager, everybody liked me, and everybody wanted to be my friends, boys and girls and men and women. And I used to get invited to all these parties. It’s not unlike today. I had my choice of parties on Saturday night because when I went to a party, I would go up to the girls and say, “Let’s dance.” I started the dancing, I broke the ice for everybody. And so I always liked myself. It’s self-love. And that’s not a bad thing, and not on my block. But, and I used to have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but I made it light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Q, you asked me about community and how it was for me. I’d like to know where you found community and like-minded people for you when you were younger than you are now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And so, you know, thankfully, because of my upbringing, both of my parents are human rights activists, and so I was exposed to a diverse group of people from many different walks of life, and I was fortunate to be able to find mentors and elders that would give me love and guidance. But unfortunately, I haven’t really participated a lot in the queer community or queer activism due to the predominantly white nature of these spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Do you have any advice, or what other advice do you have for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience, about getting through these tough times, about being smarter, right? What sort of tidbits of wisdom do you give in this regard?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>The basic thing I would say is, first and foremost, love yourself. Love yourself. And I promise you, people will love you. Know that you have a right. You’re not asking for something, ‘maybe someday people will let me do this or let me do that or let me be this.’ No. You’re a human being and you deserve it all. I’ve had a cab driver told me, a transgender woman told me I don’t expect to live over 35. I said, I said, you know, I’m in my seventies. I’m not, they don’t just let me live. I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And that’s because, and I would say, don’t be a victim. And I compare it to the animal kingdom. Like, I’m sorry to say that, but that’s the way it is. They look for the weakest one. And they say, let’s gnaw on this one. So I’m not a victim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim. Identify as a warrior, a fighter. And also, I would say, bring other people with you. Don’t do anything alone. You’re gonna be stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So find community and do things not for you. You know that sounds strong, but like really and truly. I don’t do anything. I don’t think I do anything for myself. I have it all, but I’m doing it for you. And I think that that’s lovely. I think it’s lovely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Sometimes it’s very easy to fall into the disappointment to only focus on the negativity and so it is really important to find your community, to find resilience, to find hope. And speaking of hope, do you feel more or less hopeful about the future of trans and gender expansive people now than before, especially considering our current administration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I want to ask you the same question. How do you feel about that for yourself in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>You, for me, are one of the giants of the movement, the human rights movement focusing on queer transgender individuals. And so it is really important to acknowledge and validate all of the work that our elders have done for us. There are definitely still things that we need to work on to improve together, right? Mobilize to unify, and you know to continue to protest and to fight for these rights that everybody deserves. Everybody deserves dignity and respect, regardless of how they choose to identify themselves, because we’re human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I do feel hopeful. The play actually gave me a sort of boost of radical optimism. It’s important, you know, to continue to fight because there are other Rustys out there, you know, trying to figure out how to navigate the world being who they are. And so I do feel hopeful, and I feel that things can still continue to change for the better at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Harvey Milk, you know, was famous for saying, “You gotta give them hope.” Hope is essential, and you know, I, neither I nor you, I can’t see tomorrow, I can see next week. But I can fill it with, and I got to get up in the morning and go do something. We need it now more than ever. That’s how I feel. Because I would say something that’s different today than 50 years ago. I heard this somewhere, like the shy, I think they called it the shy Republican. Like, people weren’t telling me what they were thinking of me. Well, now they’re not shy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And you know, that’s good and bad. I know my enemy, whereas I didn’t before. Right, so I take hope and this knowledge and like, yes, I need to know where I stand with you. But I, you know, on a very personal level, I am very terrified for myself. Because it’s out there. In a way, nothing has changed. We’ve come back, and I’ll say this, that man that just got killed, Charlie Kirk, I saw on the news the first moments after it happened. A news reporter talked to a student, a white young, white woman with bleached, blonde hair. And she said, oh, he was talking about how transgender people are the most violent, among the most violent people and do the most crimes in this country. What? You know, like I would have said, “Give me the names. Name some of these transgender people that are the most violent.” Me, Donna Personna, I’ve never slapped anyone in my life. I never have. Anyway, that, like, wow, and we have to push against that. So I’m hopeful, but I’m frightened out of my mind, and I have to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, I’d like to give you a really heartfelt thank you for speaking with me, for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with me for continuing to be a fearless advocate for our community and I feel very empowered by you. I feel very hopeful. I feel very optimistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>You’re welcome for that, Q, and I want to say, encouraged by you just being here. You know, I’ve done a lot. I’ve had many, many adventures where I was nervous, scared, and thinking, am I gonna come through? And to see you here right now, I understand that you are out of your comfort zone and you’re willing to go there for the greater good. And I’m also recognized that I’m going to get tired at some point. I only want to live to be 105 or something. I look at you and I think, I can see that they are going to be doing this for the next 50, 60 years. And that really encourages me, makes me feel good. And I appreciate that, and I want to thank you for that right now. You’re very intelligent, or I don’t need to say that, but I like your intelligence and you know what’s what and how to reach out to other people and have them hear you. So I’m grateful for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And thank you so much, that really means so much to me, Donna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Did that feel good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes. Yes. How does it feel to you? I was going to cry at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel, you know, like we’re friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>No, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel like we are friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Celebrated transgender elder Donna Personna, in conversation with Quetzali, a youth activist from Sacramento. \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And thats it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast,\u003c/a> for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Robert Chehoski, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series in our podcast feed. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/loveyouforyou\">\u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>\u003c/a> series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll explore how parents stretch, adapt and grow alongside their children, learning in real time what it means to support their trans and gender-expansive kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll hear a conversation between a 12-year-old transgender girl and her mom, which ranges from the joys of dancing and shopping to confronting the current anti-trans climate. We’ll also meet two gender-expansive siblings, who talk to their dad about what it’s been like to support one another, and reflect on how well their parents navigated their identities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>A 12-year-old transgender girl (she/her) and her mom\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Roberto Santiago, a father and his gender expansive kids, Eloui, 14 (xe/xyr) and Ryu, 15 (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1846671904\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>I’m Sasha Khokha, and it’s The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California, talking to people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063881\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063881\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1200x675.png 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of a 12-year-old transgender girl in a photo booth with her mom. Many families in this series have chosen to remain anonymous and not use their names or show their faces out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re calling the series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their parents about the parents’ journey to fully understand and support their child’s gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could but there have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> You kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’ll hear from this dad and his kids later in the show, but we’re going to start this episode with a 12-year-old girl in conversation with her mom. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, are not using their names because of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>So me first? OK. So I am in seventh grade. I live in the Bay Area. My pronouns are she, her. And this is my mom!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>All right. And I’m her mom. My pronouns are also she, her. And I also live in the Bay Area, because we live together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>What grade are you in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Oh, I’m, I graduated from um a really big grade, and now I’m not in school anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>A really big grade. OK. So yeah, I’m 12 right now, almost 13. And when I started, like, really transitioning from a boy to a girl, I was like, how old was I? I was like six, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I mean, we can talk about going back to when you were three years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I was just about to say that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>No, wait, I want to talk about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, tell me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> So, when I was 3 years old, I had like developed a obsession with wearing dresses and sometimes I wore dresses to preschool and it was like so fun because I was so fancy. Also, I like danced around in dresses with my brother a bunch like just like go crazy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>But of course, we didn’t have dresses for you. That wasn’t part of your wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>For me, yeah. Yeah, that wasn’t a part of my wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> So it was towels or it was…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Or it was yeah, or was your old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>My old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> And I was like so fancy, and I pranced around the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were trying in vain to get you to get in a beautiful Christmas suit to go to a Christmas party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “No! I, I don’t want to be handsome. I want to be beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. Yeah, there was no coming out. It was always just was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Always like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never one of those, like manly boys, masculine boys. When I was, like, tiny, I would kind of describe myself as that one little gay boy with, like, my pink ruffles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How do you, how did you decide, or how is it clear to you that you’re not the little gay boy, but you’re a girl?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I think one day there’s like this bus with the mad ladies on it, just like models like looking, like glaring at the screen like they always do, and I was like ‘Oh, that looks fun, I want to do that,’ and also I’ve always had an obsession with dresses and never suits or anything like that. So I think it just like gradually happened. It was like meant to be. ‘Cause I started feeling like that at a really young age. I followed my gut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never ever doubtful that I wanted to be a girl. I never had doubt in that. I was always sure that this is what I was going to be when I grew up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think we spent a lot of time kind of considering that and, and making sure it’s the right path and talking you and me and talking to therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And how are you doing now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am doing good. I’m doing pretty fine. I am kind of like antsy to get on, like to finally start estrogen because we put in the puberty blocker implant a while ago. I’m feeling pretty content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Um, how has your view changed on the LGBTQ+ community because I’m your kid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Good question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think I’ve learned a lot. I guess what I didn’t know was the breadth of people’s experience and how much range there is in what someone feels in terms of their own gender but also their sexuality, and how there are lots of different combinations and ways that that’s expressed, and it’s all cool and it…you can be happy anywhere on that spectrum, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I definitely didn’t know how a transition is managed and how you know there’s a whole field of doctors and therapists and people who are there to care for us and make sure that it’s safe and healthy and that we’re happy. I’m like really happy to know that community now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ve like caught you reading a few books about this, And that’s nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What makes you happy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I would have to say friends and mall shopping trips. Because friends, they’re my friends and they make me happy. And the reason why they’re my friends is that they make me happy. And the mall trip, it’s because I have a bit of a shopping addiction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I know. What is it that you love to buy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Mostly beauty products, like makeup and skincare and hair care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Have you been coaching me a little bit on all of that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have, I have, what product are you wearing right now on your lips?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t know. I think it’s called lippy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’re not serious, right? You know what product it is, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Tell me. How do you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I guided you to the exact place in store. Like told you, the directions like because I know that store by heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m in good hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Tell me about your friends a little more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>My friends, most of them are from school. We have like a huge friend group. But I’m especially friends with like, I have two like really close friends, and we’re kind of like a trio and we like do everything together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I love that for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>We’re like a bit too close of friends because we were not allowed to sit together anymore because we talked too much to each other. You didn’t hear that, well, no, it’s just a little thing, like if we’re working together on a group project, we get to sit together, but anything else, no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, so tell me about life outside of school. What are you, what’s your greatest accomplishment and what are you most proud of?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Outside of school, I would say I’m most proud of dance, um, and that’s because I’m on my ninth year of dance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What’s the gift that dance has given you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t know, maybe uh, the gift that dance has given me is confidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you remember what you said after the first time you did get up on stage? Do you remember your reaction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember exactly what I said, but my reaction was like, oh my god, that’s so, that’s easy, like that’s not scary at all, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> And you said, the words that you said were, “I was born to be on that stage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Actually, yeah. Oh my god, I don’t remember that at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you feel like being trans makes you different from other kids at school or at dance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I do not feel that way because none of my personal friends knows, I haven’t like opened up to them yet, so like, they just treat me like another girl at our school who just happens to be their friend, so then we just do all the normal stuff together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Do you think anything would change if you did share with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I’m really not sure. Because I have a bunch of friends at school, and I’m not sure, like, how they view, like, trans people or the LGBTQ+ community, so like ‘cause we don’t really talk about that stuff, um, so I’m not sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to know without bringing it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah. If one of your friends found out, or like, if you told one of your friends that you had a trans kid, would that affect the way they viewed you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ve had some experience with that. I think I have told lots of friends. Their reaction has been overwhelmingly wonderful. And then it becomes a non-issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s what happens. I’m only friends with good people. Do you feel like anything about being trans has made you feel, has made your experience different, like has made you grow up faster, made you think about things more deeply?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Uh\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I do think so in some ways because you have to like, I had to like snap back into the real world sometimes to see what’s going on with like politics and stuff like that. And like sometimes there’s bad news about that. So I feel like I’ve had to mature faster than normal, to like, I guess, process that. And also you’ve told me to think to the future, like how would this transition like affect me in the future a bunch. So, yeah, I do think so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you try to stay educated about what’s happening in politics?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How does it make you feel when you hear about something that is negative about LGBTQ people in the news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t really feel offended. Like, it’s kind of weird, because I’ve like started to view myself as just another girl, like a normal, like a normal person, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Just let it roll off you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mostly just laugh at it because it’s so ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s a good attitude\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Why are you looking at me like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I just love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Um, what do you most proud of about your mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am proud how you have completely accepted me and like adapted or like learned everything you can about me and people like me, and I think that’s just really sweet, and I’m also proud how you’ve also accepted that you are not walking out of this world without a full encyclopedia of skincare and makeup in your head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I knew this was going to go back to the mall. Yeah, I’ve started my journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’ve started your journey. You’ve started your retinol peptide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m trying to be open to that journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, you are. I dunno, I’m glad I’m on this journey with you, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Aww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Stop, no, don’t make a big deal about that. No, don’t get all mushy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, I’m very happy to be your partner in this journey as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sasha Khokha: Several of the conversations we’ve brought you in our\u003cem> Love You for You series\u003c/em> — like the one you just heard — have been between transgender kids and their moms. Now we’re going to hear from a dad — Roberto Santiago — talking with his two gender-expansive kids. Ryu is 15 and uses they/them pronouns, and Eloui, who’s 14 and uses neopronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Eloui, just for people who may not know, I don’t think everyone knows about neopronouns, so could you just talk a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Um, so, uh, neopronoun is any pronoun outside of he, him, she, her, they, them. Any pronoun other than that is a neopronoun. So my pronouns, xe/xyr, are spelled X-E-X-Y-R.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Ryu and Eloui talk with their dad about what they think their parents have done right on their gender journey and what they could do better. And also what it’s been like having a sibling who’s also gender-expansive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You guys have been like so supportive of each other. Ryu got your pronouns before I did, much more consistently, and what has it been like, I mean, who’s having a similar journey, you know, how, what has that done for you in terms of like your ability to explore your gender or whatever?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, Ryu, my entire life has been like the person I talk to, the person who gets me. Like, I don’t know, so if it was really good to have like the person who’s always understood me more than most other people, like understand this as well. That’s been really great, and it’s nice to have someone to rely on to talk about the issues of a genderqueer child in America, because like they don’t get all of it. We don’t experience gender dysphoria the same way, but like it is, it’s still nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I don’t even experience gender dysphoria at all, really, and thank goodness for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Lucky you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I cannot imagine. Um, Eloui was also, you know, huge in terms of my, my initial just coming out, right? Just like having that person essentially test the waters for me, right? And see how everyone in my community and everyone in my family was so wonderful and loving and accepting. And so like, I, you know, really just got my, got to do my transition almost entirely risk-free. Thanks to Eloui.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And I remember being very overjoyed when Ryu came out. I was like, someone who gets it, right here, who lives in my house, across the hallway, in my same room, whatever, it was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And so I’m curious from you guys, like what what about gender expression, like you’re for yourself, like what has that been like, and then what do you think the world should know? Like what’s misunderstood about gender expression?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> I really like to wear skirts and dresses, but I also hate to be perceived as female. So something that’s been hard for me, especially recently, is like I want to be pretty and girlie without being seen as female. I want, I’ve always said that if people are going to assume my gender as binary, male or female, I would rather them see me as male.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’ve always just worn the clothing that like feels most comfortable on my body. Which is 90% of the time just gonna be you know like, a T-shirt and some sweatpants. Uh, for me, the biggest part of gender expression in my life has always been my hair. I throughout my life have have gone through having very short and very long hair, and I currently have long hair. Um, and I, I like both because, and you know, I generally style it in a way that is perceived as androgynous because I like the way that that looks on me. And two, it’s literally just like convenient, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess I do a lot of things, mostly that are typically perceived as female. Um, I like to bake. I like cook.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You also play rugby and hit people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eloui: I also play rugby and hit people, and I like to get dirty, and I like to play video games so like I’m, I feel like I am kind of pretty in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I mean, I’ll be honest, I think that just makes both of you like typical kids for me, right? Like what I take from that, from what you all are saying is, that you know, there’s a gender binary, but also we know that there’s a gender, you know, spectrum, right? And some people lean hard into the binary, whether they’re cis or transgender, right. And, and some people, you know, who are transgender will make that completely binary flip, right. Whereas there’s also all these people out there who are living their lives somewhere in between, and their gender expression is coming somewhere in between. And I think that that’s really important for people like me who are still learning to not make assumptions, right? And to just, again, it goes back to like, I’m gonna wait for you to tell me who you are and not make assumptions about people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I’m curious. So what’s been your experience like with your classmates and your peers and maybe your teammates at rugby?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I mean, I was expecting, you know, honestly, more of a kind of positive response. Like I wasn’t really expecting like a whole party or anything, right? But I was expecting people to at least make an effort. I told everyone that I use they/them and they continue using he/him. And I would, you, I corrected them for about, you know, three or four months, which, always ‘sorry’ and then nothing would change. Uh, and I just, I kind of got tired of it and I just, you know, was, was a boy at rugby essentially for another couple of years before I quit. And I think that’s part of the reason why I quit was just like, nothing malicious was happening, but nobody was making an effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I went back to rugby in January, and I am playing on a girls’ team. And like, there has been some weirdness because I didn’t actually like, I told, I didn’t make a big announcement when I joined the team. I kinda told people one by one, starting with the people that I thought would be chill with it. And then I kinda accidentally told like all of the like low-key, kinda mean girls on the team that I was trans. And ever since then, you know, I could feel them like kinda giving me weird looks and being weird and like trying to be extra nice. And I get that a lot with like people trying to be nice. And I know a lot of the time it comes from a place of sincerity. And they’re not always trying to be mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>It just feels patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I am a person like you and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>So Eloui, at a certain point, a couple years ago, you had been playing rugby, and then you stopped for a couple of years, and you still sort of held on to being a rugby player as part of your identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>It’s a really important part of me, it’s something that I take a lot of pride in, it makes me feel tough, and I wannabe tough, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But then this year you went back, and I think one of the big differences that people probably don’t know about youth rugby or maybe youth sports in general is that when you play up until about middle school, the teams are co-ed, right? So you played on a co-ed team when you were little. Then you stopped. Did you stop because it was becoming gendered? What was it like going back to a gendered team?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>There were two big reasons I stopped, and the first one was I quit rugby the same day I found out Ryu quit rugby, because Ryu was such an important part of my rugby experience, I didn’t want to do rugby without them, but yeah, the other thing was definitely, I am so scared of having to play on a gendered team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And then you did for a season?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And honestly, most of it was actually a really good experience for me. All the girls that I immediately made friends with were like super sweet about it and so understanding. And like my favorite coach got it immediately and the other kids, it took a minute, but they’re getting there. Um there’s a part of me that is femme and is a girl and helped me connect to that in a way that’s not associated with femininity because it’s a tough, tackle you into the mud sport. So it was a really like almost healing experience for all the parts of me. It was also hard because people would say, OK, for the photo, everyone say, ‘girls rugby.’ Or like, ‘OK, girls’ like to go to do this, and I tried to correct them every time, but like they didn’t always listen to me. And that was a struggle because like, you have to find the middle ground between sticking up for yourself and just accepting that like, I signed up to be on a girl’s team and I’m just gonna have to let it go sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But also, we could provide maybe a list of like group pronouns that are not gendered, right? Hey y’all, hey folks, hey team, hey players, hey, you know, that can help counteract that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But I am curious, like, you know, me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could, right? And we’re pretty open-minded. There have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong? What would you tell parents or kids or whatever in the world about your experience being parented?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, less so these days, but like when I was younger, one thing that you, and especially mom, would do a lot of the time, is you kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? And I really appreciate it, and I really did appreciate it. But like someone would misgender me, and I would start to correct them. And like one of you, mom or you, would often, I don’t even think without realizing it, just kind of jump in and correct them for me. And I appreciate that a lot. And I know it’s like parent protectiveness, but one thing I would say is let the kid figure it out for themself. And if they don’t say anything, to make sure that the kid knows that you’re supporting them, correct the person. But like give, I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and I think something that I started to do with both of you is going into a situation or like if we had like a little moment as an aside, being able to just ask you, like, do, do you wanna say anything? Do you want me to say anything, or do you just wanna let it go? And letting you guys lead from that perspective. Once I learned how to do that, I think that was helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that was a big upgrade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>But the main thing that you got right, and the most important thing, is to just say yes to your kid and listen to what they’re asking of you, right? Like, at the end of the day, if they want to change their name or change their pronouns, the very least you can do is just respect that because it costs nothing to be kind to them and to validate them. And the alternative can be some really scary stuff that your kid has to go through, right? They can feel unloved, they can feel like nobody wants them, right, because if your parents, the people that society and your instincts and everything tells you should be the people that love and care for you the most. And you have this huge facet of your being that you feel and they just won’t accept that. And in some cases, they won’t even accept any of you just because of that part of you. Um, that can feel awful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I’m wondering, like, do you have any misgivings? Do you feel like there’s anything that like you could have really done better, because I know for me personally, I feel like my trans experience in relation to you two at least has has been wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, I think some of my missteps came even before either of you came out. So like Ryu, I think about that time, you know, you wanted to wear your hair in a ponytail and a scrunchie to day care. And I was like, “That’s fine. You can do that, but you have to understand some kids aren’t going to get it and they might tease you.” And you, the look on your face, when I said that, like, I thought I was trying to be supportive, right? Because I wasn’t saying don’t do it. I was just wanting to prepare you for the fact that other people might not be as accepting. And even that kind of crushed you a little bit. And I felt so bad, because I was getting out of the car to go to school, and I was like, I didn’t have a chance to fix it. I learned so much from that. I think a lot of the things that I regret or that I feel bad about are things that you, you all never saw. You know, like conversations I may have had early on with people that you weren’t privy to, but that’s where I was probably expressing my, my doubts and my misgivings and my fears and, you know, just how new it was. And I think that that’s something that it’s important for parents to know, and I think I’ve said this, but it’s OK to not be there yet. Right? Like, don’t show your kid that. Right. But if you internally feel like, “Oh, no, like, I don’t know about this, like I dunno how I feel about this,” as long as you’re kind of working through that yourself and not putting that on your kid, I work through it. Right. And the goal I hope is to get to a place of acceptance, but, you know, don’t totally beat yourself up either if you’re like, ‘I’m freaking out.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I think what you did right is like all the things. Everything\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Right on. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so, you know, you’ve been living this life for a little while, and there’s a lot going on in the world right now. What are you hopeful for for the future for trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, “Hey, I’m trans.” And everyone’s like, “OK, cool.” And trans people can get access to their gender-affirming care the same way cis people can get access to their gender-affirming care. I would just like to see trans people become more integrated, accepted, normalized members of society instead of sort of being ostracized and feeling othered and having to create our own safe spaces. I think the world should just be a safe space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Right. You want to be mundane. You don’t want to be a topic of conversation anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Like I want to be a person. I wanna be all kinds of things, and also trans. I don’t wanna be trans and all kinds of things because I feel like how a lot of people see me. I’m just me, I’m like you. You know, I’m not an exhibit, I am not an alien. I’m, I’m just a person. I want to be seen as that. Like, “Oh, I’m Eloui and I like purple. Oh, I am Eloui, also I’m trans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>This has been really great, and I’m looking forward to seeing what the next bit of time brings us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Thanks for supporting us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’m glad that there are spaces for like stories like this to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Love you, bud.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui\u003c/strong>: Love you, Dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Roberto Santiago and his two kids, 14-year-old Eloui and 15-year-old Ryu, as part of our series \u003cem>Love You For You, \u003c/em>where transgender kids talk about what it means to thrive with support from the adults in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli and Suzie Racho with help from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Srishti Prabha is our intern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\"> Gender Reveal podcast\u003c/a> for all his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. You can find all the interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You \u003c/em>series on our podcast. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next week on the show, we’ll meet some transgender elders who’ve got some words of wisdom for a younger generation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Quetzali: \u003c/strong>Do you have any advice for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donna Persona: \u003c/strong>I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim, identify as a warrior, a fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on the California Report Magazine. Your state, your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Episode 3 of KQED's new series, \"Love You for You,\" features trans and nonbinary youth from across California in conversation with their parents. ",
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"title": "‘Love You for You:’ What Parents Can Learn About Love and Support from their Trans Kids | KQED",
"description": "Episode 3 of KQED's new series, "Love You for You," features trans and nonbinary youth from across California in conversation with their parents. ",
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"headline": "‘Love You for You:’ What Parents Can Learn About Love and Support from their Trans Kids",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/loveyouforyou\">\u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>\u003c/a> series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll explore how parents stretch, adapt and grow alongside their children, learning in real time what it means to support their trans and gender-expansive kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll hear a conversation between a 12-year-old transgender girl and her mom, which ranges from the joys of dancing and shopping to confronting the current anti-trans climate. We’ll also meet two gender-expansive siblings, who talk to their dad about what it’s been like to support one another, and reflect on how well their parents navigated their identities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>A 12-year-old transgender girl (she/her) and her mom\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Roberto Santiago, a father and his gender expansive kids, Eloui, 14 (xe/xyr) and Ryu, 15 (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1846671904\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>I’m Sasha Khokha, and it’s The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California, talking to people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063881\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063881\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1200x675.png 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of a 12-year-old transgender girl in a photo booth with her mom. Many families in this series have chosen to remain anonymous and not use their names or show their faces out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re calling the series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their parents about the parents’ journey to fully understand and support their child’s gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could but there have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> You kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’ll hear from this dad and his kids later in the show, but we’re going to start this episode with a 12-year-old girl in conversation with her mom. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, are not using their names because of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>So me first? OK. So I am in seventh grade. I live in the Bay Area. My pronouns are she, her. And this is my mom!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>All right. And I’m her mom. My pronouns are also she, her. And I also live in the Bay Area, because we live together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>What grade are you in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Oh, I’m, I graduated from um a really big grade, and now I’m not in school anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>A really big grade. OK. So yeah, I’m 12 right now, almost 13. And when I started, like, really transitioning from a boy to a girl, I was like, how old was I? I was like six, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I mean, we can talk about going back to when you were three years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I was just about to say that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>No, wait, I want to talk about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, tell me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> So, when I was 3 years old, I had like developed a obsession with wearing dresses and sometimes I wore dresses to preschool and it was like so fun because I was so fancy. Also, I like danced around in dresses with my brother a bunch like just like go crazy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>But of course, we didn’t have dresses for you. That wasn’t part of your wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>For me, yeah. Yeah, that wasn’t a part of my wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> So it was towels or it was…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Or it was yeah, or was your old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>My old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> And I was like so fancy, and I pranced around the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were trying in vain to get you to get in a beautiful Christmas suit to go to a Christmas party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “No! I, I don’t want to be handsome. I want to be beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. Yeah, there was no coming out. It was always just was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Always like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never one of those, like manly boys, masculine boys. When I was, like, tiny, I would kind of describe myself as that one little gay boy with, like, my pink ruffles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How do you, how did you decide, or how is it clear to you that you’re not the little gay boy, but you’re a girl?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I think one day there’s like this bus with the mad ladies on it, just like models like looking, like glaring at the screen like they always do, and I was like ‘Oh, that looks fun, I want to do that,’ and also I’ve always had an obsession with dresses and never suits or anything like that. So I think it just like gradually happened. It was like meant to be. ‘Cause I started feeling like that at a really young age. I followed my gut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never ever doubtful that I wanted to be a girl. I never had doubt in that. I was always sure that this is what I was going to be when I grew up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think we spent a lot of time kind of considering that and, and making sure it’s the right path and talking you and me and talking to therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And how are you doing now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am doing good. I’m doing pretty fine. I am kind of like antsy to get on, like to finally start estrogen because we put in the puberty blocker implant a while ago. I’m feeling pretty content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Um, how has your view changed on the LGBTQ+ community because I’m your kid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Good question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think I’ve learned a lot. I guess what I didn’t know was the breadth of people’s experience and how much range there is in what someone feels in terms of their own gender but also their sexuality, and how there are lots of different combinations and ways that that’s expressed, and it’s all cool and it…you can be happy anywhere on that spectrum, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I definitely didn’t know how a transition is managed and how you know there’s a whole field of doctors and therapists and people who are there to care for us and make sure that it’s safe and healthy and that we’re happy. I’m like really happy to know that community now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ve like caught you reading a few books about this, And that’s nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What makes you happy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I would have to say friends and mall shopping trips. Because friends, they’re my friends and they make me happy. And the reason why they’re my friends is that they make me happy. And the mall trip, it’s because I have a bit of a shopping addiction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I know. What is it that you love to buy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Mostly beauty products, like makeup and skincare and hair care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Have you been coaching me a little bit on all of that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have, I have, what product are you wearing right now on your lips?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t know. I think it’s called lippy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’re not serious, right? You know what product it is, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Tell me. How do you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I guided you to the exact place in store. Like told you, the directions like because I know that store by heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m in good hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Tell me about your friends a little more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>My friends, most of them are from school. We have like a huge friend group. But I’m especially friends with like, I have two like really close friends, and we’re kind of like a trio and we like do everything together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I love that for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>We’re like a bit too close of friends because we were not allowed to sit together anymore because we talked too much to each other. You didn’t hear that, well, no, it’s just a little thing, like if we’re working together on a group project, we get to sit together, but anything else, no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, so tell me about life outside of school. What are you, what’s your greatest accomplishment and what are you most proud of?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Outside of school, I would say I’m most proud of dance, um, and that’s because I’m on my ninth year of dance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What’s the gift that dance has given you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t know, maybe uh, the gift that dance has given me is confidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you remember what you said after the first time you did get up on stage? Do you remember your reaction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember exactly what I said, but my reaction was like, oh my god, that’s so, that’s easy, like that’s not scary at all, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> And you said, the words that you said were, “I was born to be on that stage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Actually, yeah. Oh my god, I don’t remember that at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you feel like being trans makes you different from other kids at school or at dance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I do not feel that way because none of my personal friends knows, I haven’t like opened up to them yet, so like, they just treat me like another girl at our school who just happens to be their friend, so then we just do all the normal stuff together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Do you think anything would change if you did share with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I’m really not sure. Because I have a bunch of friends at school, and I’m not sure, like, how they view, like, trans people or the LGBTQ+ community, so like ‘cause we don’t really talk about that stuff, um, so I’m not sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to know without bringing it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah. If one of your friends found out, or like, if you told one of your friends that you had a trans kid, would that affect the way they viewed you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ve had some experience with that. I think I have told lots of friends. Their reaction has been overwhelmingly wonderful. And then it becomes a non-issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s what happens. I’m only friends with good people. Do you feel like anything about being trans has made you feel, has made your experience different, like has made you grow up faster, made you think about things more deeply?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Uh\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I do think so in some ways because you have to like, I had to like snap back into the real world sometimes to see what’s going on with like politics and stuff like that. And like sometimes there’s bad news about that. So I feel like I’ve had to mature faster than normal, to like, I guess, process that. And also you’ve told me to think to the future, like how would this transition like affect me in the future a bunch. So, yeah, I do think so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you try to stay educated about what’s happening in politics?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How does it make you feel when you hear about something that is negative about LGBTQ people in the news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t really feel offended. Like, it’s kind of weird, because I’ve like started to view myself as just another girl, like a normal, like a normal person, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Just let it roll off you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mostly just laugh at it because it’s so ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s a good attitude\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Why are you looking at me like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I just love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Um, what do you most proud of about your mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am proud how you have completely accepted me and like adapted or like learned everything you can about me and people like me, and I think that’s just really sweet, and I’m also proud how you’ve also accepted that you are not walking out of this world without a full encyclopedia of skincare and makeup in your head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I knew this was going to go back to the mall. Yeah, I’ve started my journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’ve started your journey. You’ve started your retinol peptide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m trying to be open to that journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, you are. I dunno, I’m glad I’m on this journey with you, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Aww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Stop, no, don’t make a big deal about that. No, don’t get all mushy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, I’m very happy to be your partner in this journey as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sasha Khokha: Several of the conversations we’ve brought you in our\u003cem> Love You for You series\u003c/em> — like the one you just heard — have been between transgender kids and their moms. Now we’re going to hear from a dad — Roberto Santiago — talking with his two gender-expansive kids. Ryu is 15 and uses they/them pronouns, and Eloui, who’s 14 and uses neopronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Eloui, just for people who may not know, I don’t think everyone knows about neopronouns, so could you just talk a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Um, so, uh, neopronoun is any pronoun outside of he, him, she, her, they, them. Any pronoun other than that is a neopronoun. So my pronouns, xe/xyr, are spelled X-E-X-Y-R.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Ryu and Eloui talk with their dad about what they think their parents have done right on their gender journey and what they could do better. And also what it’s been like having a sibling who’s also gender-expansive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You guys have been like so supportive of each other. Ryu got your pronouns before I did, much more consistently, and what has it been like, I mean, who’s having a similar journey, you know, how, what has that done for you in terms of like your ability to explore your gender or whatever?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, Ryu, my entire life has been like the person I talk to, the person who gets me. Like, I don’t know, so if it was really good to have like the person who’s always understood me more than most other people, like understand this as well. That’s been really great, and it’s nice to have someone to rely on to talk about the issues of a genderqueer child in America, because like they don’t get all of it. We don’t experience gender dysphoria the same way, but like it is, it’s still nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I don’t even experience gender dysphoria at all, really, and thank goodness for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Lucky you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I cannot imagine. Um, Eloui was also, you know, huge in terms of my, my initial just coming out, right? Just like having that person essentially test the waters for me, right? And see how everyone in my community and everyone in my family was so wonderful and loving and accepting. And so like, I, you know, really just got my, got to do my transition almost entirely risk-free. Thanks to Eloui.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And I remember being very overjoyed when Ryu came out. I was like, someone who gets it, right here, who lives in my house, across the hallway, in my same room, whatever, it was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And so I’m curious from you guys, like what what about gender expression, like you’re for yourself, like what has that been like, and then what do you think the world should know? Like what’s misunderstood about gender expression?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> I really like to wear skirts and dresses, but I also hate to be perceived as female. So something that’s been hard for me, especially recently, is like I want to be pretty and girlie without being seen as female. I want, I’ve always said that if people are going to assume my gender as binary, male or female, I would rather them see me as male.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’ve always just worn the clothing that like feels most comfortable on my body. Which is 90% of the time just gonna be you know like, a T-shirt and some sweatpants. Uh, for me, the biggest part of gender expression in my life has always been my hair. I throughout my life have have gone through having very short and very long hair, and I currently have long hair. Um, and I, I like both because, and you know, I generally style it in a way that is perceived as androgynous because I like the way that that looks on me. And two, it’s literally just like convenient, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess I do a lot of things, mostly that are typically perceived as female. Um, I like to bake. I like cook.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You also play rugby and hit people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eloui: I also play rugby and hit people, and I like to get dirty, and I like to play video games so like I’m, I feel like I am kind of pretty in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I mean, I’ll be honest, I think that just makes both of you like typical kids for me, right? Like what I take from that, from what you all are saying is, that you know, there’s a gender binary, but also we know that there’s a gender, you know, spectrum, right? And some people lean hard into the binary, whether they’re cis or transgender, right. And, and some people, you know, who are transgender will make that completely binary flip, right. Whereas there’s also all these people out there who are living their lives somewhere in between, and their gender expression is coming somewhere in between. And I think that that’s really important for people like me who are still learning to not make assumptions, right? And to just, again, it goes back to like, I’m gonna wait for you to tell me who you are and not make assumptions about people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I’m curious. So what’s been your experience like with your classmates and your peers and maybe your teammates at rugby?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I mean, I was expecting, you know, honestly, more of a kind of positive response. Like I wasn’t really expecting like a whole party or anything, right? But I was expecting people to at least make an effort. I told everyone that I use they/them and they continue using he/him. And I would, you, I corrected them for about, you know, three or four months, which, always ‘sorry’ and then nothing would change. Uh, and I just, I kind of got tired of it and I just, you know, was, was a boy at rugby essentially for another couple of years before I quit. And I think that’s part of the reason why I quit was just like, nothing malicious was happening, but nobody was making an effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I went back to rugby in January, and I am playing on a girls’ team. And like, there has been some weirdness because I didn’t actually like, I told, I didn’t make a big announcement when I joined the team. I kinda told people one by one, starting with the people that I thought would be chill with it. And then I kinda accidentally told like all of the like low-key, kinda mean girls on the team that I was trans. And ever since then, you know, I could feel them like kinda giving me weird looks and being weird and like trying to be extra nice. And I get that a lot with like people trying to be nice. And I know a lot of the time it comes from a place of sincerity. And they’re not always trying to be mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>It just feels patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I am a person like you and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>So Eloui, at a certain point, a couple years ago, you had been playing rugby, and then you stopped for a couple of years, and you still sort of held on to being a rugby player as part of your identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>It’s a really important part of me, it’s something that I take a lot of pride in, it makes me feel tough, and I wannabe tough, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But then this year you went back, and I think one of the big differences that people probably don’t know about youth rugby or maybe youth sports in general is that when you play up until about middle school, the teams are co-ed, right? So you played on a co-ed team when you were little. Then you stopped. Did you stop because it was becoming gendered? What was it like going back to a gendered team?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>There were two big reasons I stopped, and the first one was I quit rugby the same day I found out Ryu quit rugby, because Ryu was such an important part of my rugby experience, I didn’t want to do rugby without them, but yeah, the other thing was definitely, I am so scared of having to play on a gendered team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And then you did for a season?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And honestly, most of it was actually a really good experience for me. All the girls that I immediately made friends with were like super sweet about it and so understanding. And like my favorite coach got it immediately and the other kids, it took a minute, but they’re getting there. Um there’s a part of me that is femme and is a girl and helped me connect to that in a way that’s not associated with femininity because it’s a tough, tackle you into the mud sport. So it was a really like almost healing experience for all the parts of me. It was also hard because people would say, OK, for the photo, everyone say, ‘girls rugby.’ Or like, ‘OK, girls’ like to go to do this, and I tried to correct them every time, but like they didn’t always listen to me. And that was a struggle because like, you have to find the middle ground between sticking up for yourself and just accepting that like, I signed up to be on a girl’s team and I’m just gonna have to let it go sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But also, we could provide maybe a list of like group pronouns that are not gendered, right? Hey y’all, hey folks, hey team, hey players, hey, you know, that can help counteract that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But I am curious, like, you know, me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could, right? And we’re pretty open-minded. There have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong? What would you tell parents or kids or whatever in the world about your experience being parented?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, less so these days, but like when I was younger, one thing that you, and especially mom, would do a lot of the time, is you kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? And I really appreciate it, and I really did appreciate it. But like someone would misgender me, and I would start to correct them. And like one of you, mom or you, would often, I don’t even think without realizing it, just kind of jump in and correct them for me. And I appreciate that a lot. And I know it’s like parent protectiveness, but one thing I would say is let the kid figure it out for themself. And if they don’t say anything, to make sure that the kid knows that you’re supporting them, correct the person. But like give, I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and I think something that I started to do with both of you is going into a situation or like if we had like a little moment as an aside, being able to just ask you, like, do, do you wanna say anything? Do you want me to say anything, or do you just wanna let it go? And letting you guys lead from that perspective. Once I learned how to do that, I think that was helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that was a big upgrade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>But the main thing that you got right, and the most important thing, is to just say yes to your kid and listen to what they’re asking of you, right? Like, at the end of the day, if they want to change their name or change their pronouns, the very least you can do is just respect that because it costs nothing to be kind to them and to validate them. And the alternative can be some really scary stuff that your kid has to go through, right? They can feel unloved, they can feel like nobody wants them, right, because if your parents, the people that society and your instincts and everything tells you should be the people that love and care for you the most. And you have this huge facet of your being that you feel and they just won’t accept that. And in some cases, they won’t even accept any of you just because of that part of you. Um, that can feel awful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I’m wondering, like, do you have any misgivings? Do you feel like there’s anything that like you could have really done better, because I know for me personally, I feel like my trans experience in relation to you two at least has has been wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, I think some of my missteps came even before either of you came out. So like Ryu, I think about that time, you know, you wanted to wear your hair in a ponytail and a scrunchie to day care. And I was like, “That’s fine. You can do that, but you have to understand some kids aren’t going to get it and they might tease you.” And you, the look on your face, when I said that, like, I thought I was trying to be supportive, right? Because I wasn’t saying don’t do it. I was just wanting to prepare you for the fact that other people might not be as accepting. And even that kind of crushed you a little bit. And I felt so bad, because I was getting out of the car to go to school, and I was like, I didn’t have a chance to fix it. I learned so much from that. I think a lot of the things that I regret or that I feel bad about are things that you, you all never saw. You know, like conversations I may have had early on with people that you weren’t privy to, but that’s where I was probably expressing my, my doubts and my misgivings and my fears and, you know, just how new it was. And I think that that’s something that it’s important for parents to know, and I think I’ve said this, but it’s OK to not be there yet. Right? Like, don’t show your kid that. Right. But if you internally feel like, “Oh, no, like, I don’t know about this, like I dunno how I feel about this,” as long as you’re kind of working through that yourself and not putting that on your kid, I work through it. Right. And the goal I hope is to get to a place of acceptance, but, you know, don’t totally beat yourself up either if you’re like, ‘I’m freaking out.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I think what you did right is like all the things. Everything\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Right on. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so, you know, you’ve been living this life for a little while, and there’s a lot going on in the world right now. What are you hopeful for for the future for trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, “Hey, I’m trans.” And everyone’s like, “OK, cool.” And trans people can get access to their gender-affirming care the same way cis people can get access to their gender-affirming care. I would just like to see trans people become more integrated, accepted, normalized members of society instead of sort of being ostracized and feeling othered and having to create our own safe spaces. I think the world should just be a safe space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Right. You want to be mundane. You don’t want to be a topic of conversation anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Like I want to be a person. I wanna be all kinds of things, and also trans. I don’t wanna be trans and all kinds of things because I feel like how a lot of people see me. I’m just me, I’m like you. You know, I’m not an exhibit, I am not an alien. I’m, I’m just a person. I want to be seen as that. Like, “Oh, I’m Eloui and I like purple. Oh, I am Eloui, also I’m trans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>This has been really great, and I’m looking forward to seeing what the next bit of time brings us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Thanks for supporting us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’m glad that there are spaces for like stories like this to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Love you, bud.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui\u003c/strong>: Love you, Dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Roberto Santiago and his two kids, 14-year-old Eloui and 15-year-old Ryu, as part of our series \u003cem>Love You For You, \u003c/em>where transgender kids talk about what it means to thrive with support from the adults in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli and Suzie Racho with help from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Srishti Prabha is our intern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\"> Gender Reveal podcast\u003c/a> for all his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. You can find all the interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You \u003c/em>series on our podcast. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next week on the show, we’ll meet some transgender elders who’ve got some words of wisdom for a younger generation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Quetzali: \u003c/strong>Do you have any advice for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donna Persona: \u003c/strong>I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim, identify as a warrior, a fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on the California Report Magazine. Your state, your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "san-francisco-launches-tenderloin-pilot-to-prevent-youth-violence-expand-safe-spaces",
"title": "San Francisco Launches Tenderloin Pilot to Prevent Youth Violence, Expand Safe Spaces",
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"headTitle": "San Francisco Launches Tenderloin Pilot to Prevent Youth Violence, Expand Safe Spaces | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>A new program targeting youth violence prevention is coming to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/tenderloin\">Tenderloin\u003c/a>, San Francisco city officials announced on Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Tenderloin Youth Violence Prevention Pilot Program, developed in partnership with local organization \u003ca href=\"https://unitedplayaz.org/about-us/\">United Playaz\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://tlcbd.org/\">Tenderloin Community Benefit District\u003c/a>, will launch early next year, according to the district’s Supervisor Bilal Mahmood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program will employ community staff members with \u003ca href=\"https://sanfrancisco.granicus.com/player/clip/51126?view_id=192&redirect=true\">ties to the Tenderloin\u003c/a> to provide mentorship, violence intervention and programming for up to 20 young people ages 12 to 24. It follows a string of Tenderloin initiatives focused on protecting children and teens from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11997174/sfs-top-district-5-candidates-outline-bold-plans-to-tackle-drug-crisis-in-tenderloin\">drug trade and violent crime\u003c/a> in the district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mahmood told KQED that he felt compelled to pursue the program after attending several funerals for born-and-raised Tenderloin locals. He said one of those young people died due to an overdose, and another from gun violence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was a difficult time,” Mahmood recalled. He said that “kids who look like me — that could have had a better opportunity — were failed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the Tenderloin having the highest concentration of children in San Francisco, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://sfplanning.org/sites/default/files/documents/citywide/tenderloin-community-action-plan/tcap-youth-gap-analysis-report.pdf\">2024 report\u003c/a> by the city’s planning department, Mahmood said the district did not have a city-funded violence prevention program until now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056781\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056781\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250918-TLICECREAM-03-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250918-TLICECREAM-03-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250918-TLICECREAM-03-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250918-TLICECREAM-03-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Supervisor Bilal Mahmood gives away ice cream at the inaugural children’s ice cream social in the Tenderloin in San Francisco on Sept. 18, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The city report states that in 2023, 18% of San Francisco’s more than 800 accidental overdose deaths occurred in the Tenderloin. It also noted that nearly half of the city’s drug-offense incident reports that year were filed in the district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie, who joined Mahmood to announce the launch, acknowledged this gap during a Wednesday press conference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the city supports several organizations that focus on violence prevention, there has never been a dedicated community-based program centered right here in the Tenderloin,” Lurie said. “That changes today.”[aside postID=news_12054193 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250620-TENDERLOIN-INSTANT-CAMERAS-50-KQED.jpg']Tenderloin Community Benefit District Executive Director Kate Robinson said children are exposed daily to an “open 24/7 drug market on the streets.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have failed to protect all of the children in this neighborhood from seeing the opportunity there, because we haven’t provided them with other opportunities in its place,” Robinson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since August 2023, at least 57 teens have been arrested in San Francisco for drug dealing — many from the Tenderloin — Mahmood said at the press conference. He added that two men were \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-arrest-drugs-tenderloin-child-20111262.php\">charged earlier this year\u003c/a> with using a minor to distribute narcotics in the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That tells us young people are being targeted, young people being recruited into the drug trade,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private donations totaling $200,000 will fund the pilot for up to a year, according to Mahmood, who hopes it becomes a “permanent component of the city budget.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a neighborhood without places like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12056592/neighbors-host-ice-cream-social-for-kids-in-sfs-tenderloin-where-there-is-no-ice-cream-shop\">an ice cream shop\u003c/a>, the pilot program also aims to create more spaces for young people to hang out safely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11866841\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11866841\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Members of the United Playaz speak during a student-led rally to show solidarity with Asian Americans at the Embarcadero Plaza in San Francisco on March 26, 2021. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have to fundamentally change the environment,” Mahmood said. “But we also have to fundamentally provide the opportunities for these kids to see that there is a path to better lives.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Tenderloin Community Benefit District and United Playaz, which Mahmood described as “natural” partners in the pilot, will support the initiative by conducting youth outreach and helping with the violence prevention programming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>United Playaz’s Executive Director, Rudy Corpuz, said there are Tenderloin residents who have worked toward this effort for years, calling them “our frontline soldiers that’s willing to put their life on the line for the kids and the people here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are the most equipped to help their neighborhood, Corpuz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Tenderloin people — who’s been going through all this, walking through this madness — they are the fix to the violence that’s going on here,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A new program targeting youth violence prevention is coming to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/tenderloin\">Tenderloin\u003c/a>, San Francisco city officials announced on Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Tenderloin Youth Violence Prevention Pilot Program, developed in partnership with local organization \u003ca href=\"https://unitedplayaz.org/about-us/\">United Playaz\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://tlcbd.org/\">Tenderloin Community Benefit District\u003c/a>, will launch early next year, according to the district’s Supervisor Bilal Mahmood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program will employ community staff members with \u003ca href=\"https://sanfrancisco.granicus.com/player/clip/51126?view_id=192&redirect=true\">ties to the Tenderloin\u003c/a> to provide mentorship, violence intervention and programming for up to 20 young people ages 12 to 24. It follows a string of Tenderloin initiatives focused on protecting children and teens from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11997174/sfs-top-district-5-candidates-outline-bold-plans-to-tackle-drug-crisis-in-tenderloin\">drug trade and violent crime\u003c/a> in the district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mahmood told KQED that he felt compelled to pursue the program after attending several funerals for born-and-raised Tenderloin locals. He said one of those young people died due to an overdose, and another from gun violence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was a difficult time,” Mahmood recalled. He said that “kids who look like me — that could have had a better opportunity — were failed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the Tenderloin having the highest concentration of children in San Francisco, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://sfplanning.org/sites/default/files/documents/citywide/tenderloin-community-action-plan/tcap-youth-gap-analysis-report.pdf\">2024 report\u003c/a> by the city’s planning department, Mahmood said the district did not have a city-funded violence prevention program until now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056781\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056781\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250918-TLICECREAM-03-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250918-TLICECREAM-03-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250918-TLICECREAM-03-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250918-TLICECREAM-03-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Supervisor Bilal Mahmood gives away ice cream at the inaugural children’s ice cream social in the Tenderloin in San Francisco on Sept. 18, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The city report states that in 2023, 18% of San Francisco’s more than 800 accidental overdose deaths occurred in the Tenderloin. It also noted that nearly half of the city’s drug-offense incident reports that year were filed in the district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie, who joined Mahmood to announce the launch, acknowledged this gap during a Wednesday press conference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the city supports several organizations that focus on violence prevention, there has never been a dedicated community-based program centered right here in the Tenderloin,” Lurie said. “That changes today.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Tenderloin Community Benefit District Executive Director Kate Robinson said children are exposed daily to an “open 24/7 drug market on the streets.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have failed to protect all of the children in this neighborhood from seeing the opportunity there, because we haven’t provided them with other opportunities in its place,” Robinson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since August 2023, at least 57 teens have been arrested in San Francisco for drug dealing — many from the Tenderloin — Mahmood said at the press conference. He added that two men were \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-arrest-drugs-tenderloin-child-20111262.php\">charged earlier this year\u003c/a> with using a minor to distribute narcotics in the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That tells us young people are being targeted, young people being recruited into the drug trade,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private donations totaling $200,000 will fund the pilot for up to a year, according to Mahmood, who hopes it becomes a “permanent component of the city budget.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a neighborhood without places like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12056592/neighbors-host-ice-cream-social-for-kids-in-sfs-tenderloin-where-there-is-no-ice-cream-shop\">an ice cream shop\u003c/a>, the pilot program also aims to create more spaces for young people to hang out safely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11866841\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11866841\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48167_048_SanFrancisco_RiseUpRally_03262021-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Members of the United Playaz speak during a student-led rally to show solidarity with Asian Americans at the Embarcadero Plaza in San Francisco on March 26, 2021. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have to fundamentally change the environment,” Mahmood said. “But we also have to fundamentally provide the opportunities for these kids to see that there is a path to better lives.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Tenderloin Community Benefit District and United Playaz, which Mahmood described as “natural” partners in the pilot, will support the initiative by conducting youth outreach and helping with the violence prevention programming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>United Playaz’s Executive Director, Rudy Corpuz, said there are Tenderloin residents who have worked toward this effort for years, calling them “our frontline soldiers that’s willing to put their life on the line for the kids and the people here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are the most equipped to help their neighborhood, Corpuz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Tenderloin people — who’s been going through all this, walking through this madness — they are the fix to the violence that’s going on here,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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},
"closealltabs": {
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"order": 1
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"order": 9
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"meta": {
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},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
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"source": "NPR"
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"order": 15
},
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"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 18
},
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"meta": {
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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},
"morning-edition": {
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"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
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"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
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},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
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"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
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"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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