Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay

San Francisco Bay is notorious in the shipping world for its tricky waters. That’s why bar pilots — specially trained mariners — board every ship entering or exiting the bay and guide it to safety.

Jul 9, 2026

Katrina Schwartz

A San Francisco bar pilot's image reflects in the window of their boat as they pull up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland on Jan. 14, 2026. The ship is part of Pasha Hawaii’s fleet, providing container shipping service between California ports and Hawaii. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

View the full episode transcript.

On a sunny day, the beauty of San Francisco Bay rivals almost any place in the world. The stately bridges boldly cross its watery expanse, dreamy islands call out for exploration, green or golden hills rise up on all sides and the twinkling lights of the city sparkle in the distance. But on a foggy, windy day, that same paradise can be treacherous for ships coming in and out of the Golden Gate.

That’s why all ships over 750 gross tons — about 150 feet or longer — are required to use a special mariner who knows the local conditions when they enter or exit the bay. Known as bar pilots, these local guides board vessels about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, take charge of the ship and guide it safely under the bridges and through the bay to its anchorage spot or port berth. They also help move vessels within the bay, like from anchorage to port, for example.

Erik Udd often sees the bar pilot speedboat depart from Pier 9, where the bar pilots are headquartered, as he cycles his pedicab along the Embarcadero.

“I’ve seen the boats, and I’ve seen them heading out towards the Golden Gate, but I never thought about the process,” Udd said. So he asked Bay Curious: “What do they do? How does it work? Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?”

How the bar pilots came to be

There are a lot of reasons San Francisco Bay is a tricky port to enter. First, there’s a large sandbar outside the mouth of the Golden Gate with only a narrow channel through it that’s deep enough for ships to navigate. Then there’s the weather — dense fog, strong winds and winter storms. Lastly, the currents can be deadly and pull ships off course.

For all these reasons, many Gold Rush-era ships foundered and sank on their way into the bay. And sunken ships are bad for the flow of commerce. They create additional maritime hazards and gum up the works.

A bar pilot navigates a pilot boat in the San Francisco Bay. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

Ships sit at anchor in the San Francisco Bay in areas known as ‘anchor buckets,’ where commercial vessels can remain for extended periods. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

“The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time,” said Anne McIntyre, business director for the San Francisco Bar Pilots. “We were founded in 1850. The first thing the California legislature did was pass the Pilotage Act, and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.”

Evidence of this long history lines the walls of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. The first ships they served were sailing ships, but soon steam-powered vessels came on the scene, and eventually, diesel engines.

Capt. Cevan LeSieur points to historic photos of early bar pilot boats at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco. The San Francisco Bar Pilot Association was founded in 1850 and is one of the oldest maritime organizations on the Pacific Coast. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

In the early days, “the pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then climb up the ladder,” said Captain Cevan Lesieur, a bar pilot with more than 10 years of experience.

He has piloted hundreds of ships through the bay’s waters and shook his head at the idea of one man braving the fog and wind alone in a boat powered only by his own strength.

“You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with, these people were just tougher than we are nowadays,” he said.

What’s it like being a bar pilot today?

That’s not to say being a bar pilot today is easy. They have to navigate many types of waterways – including through the open ocean, up and down the Stockton and Sacramento rivers, under several bridges and through a congested central bay. They also pilot all kinds of vessels from massive cargo ships to cruise ships, tankers to bulkers, yachts to car ships.

The most harrowing part of a bar pilot’s job is open water boarding. Here’s how it works: when a ship approaches San Francisco from the open ocean, it meets up with a station boat that’s always waiting 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew on that boat rotates weekly, but the bar pilots work 365 days a year in all weather conditions.

Capt. Cevan LeSieur (left) prepares to board the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

Left: A bar pilot boat pulls up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. Right: Capt. Cevan LeSieur boards the Pasha Hawaii ship George III. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

As the ship approaches, it slows down to 9 knots — about 12 miles per hour — and the pilot boat comes alongside at the same speed. Then, timing the jump carefully, the bar pilot leaps across and grabs onto a ladder hanging on the side of the ship.

They are not tied into anything when they make this jump. When a ship leaves for sea, this process is reversed, with the bar pilot jumping from the ladder to the moving deck of the pilot boat.

“Getting on can be tricky, and people have gone in the water,” said John Carlier, the president of the bar pilots association and a man with more than 30 years on the job. “But getting off and trying to get that small landing area on that deck while that boat’s surfing past you can be a bit sketchy.”

If a pilot does go in the water, he’s wearing a “float coat,” which turns into a lifejacket when it hits the water, complete with lights and a safety whistle. Pilots make the jump in all kinds of weather conditions.

“If it’s not safe, you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it,” Lesieur said.

He estimated that it’s only about once a year that the weather is so bad that the pilot can’t make the jump. If that happens, the pilot has to stay on the ship until the next port of call and then fly home, and no one wants that.

Our question asker, Erik Udd, was interested in knowing if bar pilots receive hazard pay during bad weather, and the answer is no. But they are paid well — in the mid-six figures on average. They are paid by the shipping companies that use their services. There’s a rate structure based on the tonnage of the ship.

Becoming a bar pilot

To become a bar pilot, a person must be a mid-career captain with decades of experience already. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Based on those scores, candidates are ranked on a list from which the bar pilots pull when apprenticeships open up. Once in the training program, most people spend close to two years shadowing more experienced pilots and learning all the different routes.

“The area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento,” Carlier said. “There’s eight different sections. You’re going to do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.”

Bar pilot Capt. Cevan LeSieur stands on the bridge of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

They also have to learn by heart over 670 aids to navigation — the lights and buoys — as well as the depth charts for the entire 5,000-square-mile area.

Despite the expertise and local knowledge of the bar pilots, there have been instances when they made mistakes with devastating consequences. In 2007, a ship with a bar pilot in charge clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers and 58,000 gallons of fuel oil spilled into the bay.

“There were some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic [navigation] equipment, which definitely added to the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge,” Carlier said. “We actually bring our own electronic navigation equipment with us on board now. We also bring our GPS antennas.”

Bar pilots at work

The container ships that dock at the Port of Oakland to load and unload cargo are massive. The largest ones are as long as the Salesforce Tower is tall, but even more modestly sized ones are huge. The bar pilots have had to adapt as the ships have gotten bigger.

George III is a container ship operated by Pasha Hawaii that brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands. It runs the same route every two weeks, leaving Honolulu mostly empty save for a few commodities like macadamia nuts and rum, stops in Oakland to take on cargo and then heads down to Long Beach for more, before returning to Hawaii.

Many of the ships operating in the bay are as long as a skyscraper is tall. (Courtesy of the San Francisco Bar Pilots)

“The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability if shipping stopped,” said Ed Washburn, senior vice president of fleet operations. “So it’s very sensitive.”

The crew of the ship signs on for long stints, 10 to 14 weeks, but then gets just as much time off on land. When they’re on board, they work as a team to keep ship operations running smoothly, the loads balanced, and the engines purring.

George III is a unique vessel because it runs on both diesel fuel and natural gas, making it a cleaner vessel, but also one with more specific engineering needs. The crew eats, sleeps and works in shifts, building a strong sense of camaraderie.

A crew member on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III works on the bridge while docked at the Port of Oakland. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

Left: Mark Bancroft, a second assistant engineer, works in the engine room of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. Right: Crew members eat dinner on the George III before departing the Port of Oakland. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

When it’s time to push off for sea, the bar pilot boards the ship and heads towards the ship’s bridge, at the top of the vessel. From there, he checks in with the captain, makes sure the equipment has all been tested and communicates with tugboats.

“It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90-ton boats and no wind,” said Christian Barron, the bar pilot on duty as George III slowly inched away from the dock. “We’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.”

San Francisco bar pilot Christian Barron works on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III before departing the Port of Oakland. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

A bar pilot boat is docked at the Port of Oakland. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

Views of the San Francisco skyline from a bar pilot boat. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)

Once the ship was safely out of San Francisco Bay, Christian climbed down the ladder and jumped onto the station boat, where he waited for the next ship needing his services to arrive.

When the bar pilots are doing their jobs well, we landlubbers might not even know they exist. We only see the stocked grocery shelves, fuel at the gas pump and cruise ships awaiting passengers at the pier. But to make all of that happen, a bar pilot is working day or night, rain or shine, fog or no, to bring ships safely to port.

Episode transcript

Olivia Allen-Price: If you ask mariners, they’ll tell you, navigating a boat from the open ocean into the San Francisco Bay is notoriously treacherous.

There’s the dense fog that can make it hard to see. Strong currents constantly rearrange the sea floor, and can quickly throw a vessel off course. And finally – our bridges! If a boat were to strike a pillar it could be catastrophic.

That’s why captains of big ships aren’t allowed to navigate into port on their own. A specially trained mariner called a bar pilot – hops aboard every ship that comes into San Francisco Bay, and takes over command.

We got a question about those bar pilots, so we sent Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz to the Embarcadero to meet the man who asked it.

Katrina Schwartz: Erik Udd said he’d meet me at the Embarcadero BART station. When I emerged on the escalator he was waiting for me, sitting at the helm of a pedicab.

Erik Udd: It’s a great retirement job, I get exercise, it is perfect for me.

Katrina Schwartz: While we talk, he’s giving me a ride in his pedicab over to Pier 9…near the Exploratorium…

Erik Udd: Oh, there goes a boat right now.

Katrina Schwartz: While Erik pedals along the Embarcadero, he often notices the orange and white boats with the word “PILOT” painted on the side in giant, all caps letters.

Erik Udd: I’ve seen the boats and I’ve seen them heading out towards the golden gate, but I never thought about the process. What do they do? How does it work?

Katrina Schwartz: Erik wants to know everything about the bar pilots. Like, how does the pilot get onto one of those big container ships?

Erik Udd: How big of a boat needs a pilot to come into the bay?

Katrina Schwartz: What kind of training do the pilots go through?

Erik Udd: Has anyone ever gone in the water? I’m sure someone has gone in the water. Maybe a better question is how many times?

Katrina Schwartz: What happens when there’s a storm?

Erik Udd: Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?

Katrina Schwartz: After all, some of the ships coming into the bay are truly massive.

Erik Udd: It’s like a building is moving along across the water. Those things are huge.

Katrina Schwartz: It’s quite a lot of questions, but I’m up to the task. Erik drops me off at Pier 9, where the Bar Pilots are headquartered. It’s the last office out at the end of the pier and sits behind a chain link fence. But once I’m inside, it looks like a fairly typical office building except the views of the bay are stunning.

Cevan Lesieur: Anne’s office has the best views in the city.

Katrina Schwartz: Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me around.

Cevan has been a pilot here for 12 years.

Cevan Lesieur: This is the best and most interesting waterway to work on from my experience and most challenging. So I always said if I was gonna become a pilot, it’d be in San Francisco.

Katrina Schwartz: Challenging because of the currents, the weather, the varied types of waterways and a congested central bay. Bar pilots can be called upon to move cruise ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, even really big yachts. And they have to be able to skillfully maneuver each type of vessel through narrowly dredged channels up the Sacramento and Stockton rivers and around smaller vessels.

Anne McIntyre: We service all nine Bay Area ports. So we take ships all the way up to West Sacramento, to Stockton, down to Redwood City, even down to Monterey.

Katrina Schwartz: Here’s how it works.

Every ship over about 150 feet is required by law to use a bar pilot to enter and exit the bay, as well as to move from anchor to port within the bay. The pilots serve about 75-hundred vessels a year.

The most dramatic moment for a bar pilot happens out in the open ocean beyond the Golden Gate Bridge.

Cevan Lesieur: We have what we call our station boat or ocean boats. And one is off shore at all times, about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we have crews out there that rotate every week.

Katrina Schwartz: When a large vessel is heading into San Francisco Bay, it meets up with the bar pilot boat out on the ocean and the bar pilot leaps from one to the other — you heard that right — and they are not tied into anything when they do it. Then they climb up a ladder on the outside of the ship.

Cevan Lesieur: Timing is critical, and especially the worse the weather, the more important timing is.

Katrina Schwartz: The ships are side-by-side going about 12-miles per hour when the pilot makes his jump. Cevan says there are some weather conditions that make the transfer too dangerous, but it doesn’t happen often…maybe once a year.

Cevan Lesieur: If it’s not safe you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it.

Katrina Schwartz: Once the pilot is on board, he or she communicates with the captain and crew to bring the vessel safely under the Golden Gate Bridge, through the Bay and to its anchorage spot or port berth. The same happens in reverse, except the pilot has to jump off the ladder and onto the pilot boat.

Every bar pilot I talked to had a harrowing story about open water boarding, but Cevan’s is the funniest.

Cevan Lesieur: I was boarding a car ship and the conditions were really bad and the ship and the pilot boat were going up and down and up and down. The wind was so bad, I took like 3 attempts. Finally we came alongside and I was on the platform and I jumped and landed on the deck and was laying there. And the mate looked down, and said you’re f**ing crazy!

Katrina Schwartz: Over their long history, pilots have died and many have gone in the water, but it’s not common.

Cevan Lesieur: In the modern era, we have not lost a pilot here. And the last time a pilot went into the water has been several years ago.

Katrina Schwartz: If a pilot does miss the jump, he’s wearing a “float coat” that becomes a life jacket when he hits the water, complete with lights and whistles.

And to answer our question asker, no, they don’t get hazard pay. But they are paid well… on average about 500,000 a year — all of that paid by the companies operating the boats they serve.

Olivia Allen-Price: We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how the bar pilots came to be and Katrina gets to shadow a pilot on a real job. Will she make the jump? All that coming up.

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Olivia Allen-Price: We were on a tour of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz found the halls are lined with evidence of the organization’s very long history.

Katrina Schwartz: Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me cool photos and artifacts from bar pilot history.

Anne McIntyre: We have to stop at this one here. This is the original charter from the first California legislative session.

Katrina Schwartz: Anne points to an old looking document on the wall.

Anne McIntyre: The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time. We were founded in 1850. We’re the second oldest business in San Francisco behind Boudin Bread.

Katrina Schwartz: The bar pilots are as old as the state of California. Even back in 1850, state legislators understood the future of San Francisco — California even — depended on the safe flow of ships in and out of the Bay. We couldn’t have all these shipwrecks gumming up the works.

Anne McIntyre: We were the first act of the first California Legislature. So the first thing the California legislature did was pass the pilotage act happened and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.

Katrina Schwartz: Back then, the ships coming to San Francisco were mostly sailing vessels. By the end of the century coal-fired steam engines would come on the scene and later diesel engines. Each era required something different from the bar pilots, Cevan tells me. Boarding sailing ships might have been the most physically demanding.

Cevan Lesieur: The pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then you’d climb up the ladder.

Katrina Schwartz: He shakes his head at the idea of rowing a dingy through dense fog and huge wake.

Cevan Lesieur: You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with…These people were just tougher than we are nowadays. (Laughs, fade under)

Katrina Schwartz: To become a bar pilot, you have to be a mid-career captain with many years of experience. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Candidates are ranked based on their scores and are then eligible for an apprenticeship with the bar pilots.

John Carlier: You’re going to probably do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.

Katrina Schwartz: John Carlier is the President of the Bar Pilots Association. He says there are eight sections in the Bay, each with their own challenges, and the pilots have to learn all of them.

John Carlier: And the area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento.

Katrina Schwartz: Piloting up the rivers here can be especially challenging. The ships are within two feet of the bottom in narrow channels with little room for error. And it takes a long time, about 9 hours from the open ocean to Stockton or Sacramento, so they usually change bar pilots half way to avoid fatigue.

Despite all this training, there have been incidents when ships captained by bar pilots have run into trouble in the Bay. Like in 2007 when an oil tanker clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers.

John Carlier: Yes, that was a bar pilot.

News clip: A 900 foot container ship hit the Bay Bridge tower east of the main anchorage. 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. Countless fragile ecosystems.

John Carlier: There was some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic nav equipment which definitely added to you know the the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge.

Katrina Schwartz: Because of that incident, the bar pilots now bring their own GPS navigational equipment on board with them so they don’t have to rely on the vessel’s equipment.

I’m going to get to see that in action soon, so we start heading towards a boat with the word “pilot” boldly written on its side tied up out back. We clamor aboard. It looks like a fancy speedboat, and head towards Oakland.

Pilot: Where do you want to head to?

Cevan Lesieur: Port of Oakland, George III

Katrina Schwartz: It takes about 20 minutes to cross the bay and soon our small boat is pulling up alongside a massive containership. This boat is considered “small” by shipping standards and it’s still as tall as a 15 story building from the water up to the top. I now have to step from the bobbing deck of the pilot boat onto a rope ladder dangling from the first deck.

Sounds of ladder clanking against the ship

Katrina Schwartz: I had hoped to do the open ocean leap I’d heard so much about. Climbing about 15 feet up this ladder felt pretty tame by comparison. The water in the Oakland estuary was very calm, kinda the training wheels version of this climb. No heroics for me.

This ship, George the III, brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands.

Ed Washburn: Everything from medicine to groceries to fertilizer.

Katrina Schwartz: Ed Washburn is senior vice president of fleet operations with Pasha, Hawaii, the company that owns this vessel.

This ship runs the same two-week route on repeat.

Ed Washburn: The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability, of shipping stopped. So it’s very sensitive.

Katrina Schwartz: It leaves Honolulu mostly empty, carrying a few commodities like rum and macadamia nuts to the mainland. Then it stops in Oakland to pick up cargo, down to Long Beach for more and back to Honolulu.

Ed Washburn: The value of that is about $50 million in cargo each time.

Ok, should we go up to the bridge?

Katrina Schwartz: The bridge is at the top of the ship and it’s where the bar pilot does their work. We walk up A LOT of steps to get there.

(sounds of steps under this)

Katrina Schwartz: From up here we have incredible views of the sun setting over the bay and the internal workings of the port.

Cevan Lesieur: This is Christian Barron. He’s also a Cal Maritime graduate.

Katrina Schwartz: Today, Christian Barron is the bar pilot in charge. But Cevan is hanging out with me, explaining what’s happening so I don’t bug Christian at crucial moments, like when he’s checking in with the captain.

Cevan Lesieur: Once the tugs have been made fast and the engine’s been tested we can get rolling.

Captain Eric Veloni: The engine has been tested.

Katrina Schwartz: These massive ships are hard to maneuver, so pilots use tugboats to pull the ship off the dock.

Radio sounds: Captain, this is the chief engineer. Show of power. Cables secured.

Captain Eric Veloni: Roger, Dave.

Katrina Schwartz: Christian checks in with Vessel Traffic Services, basically air traffic control for boats, to let them know his plan and find out if there are other vessels in the shipping lanes he needs to be aware of.

Christian Barron: Traffic, good evening, 4-5. Preparing to depart Oakland 55 starboard side two bound for sea. Deep draft 32 feet two inches. Tend to Delta-Echo span and deep water traffic lane Working my tugs on 20 Alpha.

VTS Operator: Roger, copy that, 4-5. George the third preparing to get underway from Oakland…

Katrina Schwartz: Nothing to worry about. There’s a fair amount of waiting as the crew gets in position and the port workers untie the boat.

Christian Barron: All clear forward

Katrina Schwartz: And then we get going.

Christian Barron: All clear fore and aft, stand clear of your tuglines.

Katrina Schwartz: Artemis and Apollo are the names of the tugboats.

Christian Barron: Ok, ready to go. Artemis stop and stretch. Apollo stop and stretch.

Katrina Schwartz: As Christian gives orders, the massive container ship starts to slowly move away from the dock.

Christian Barron: It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90 ton boats and no wind.

Katrina Schwartz: Once the tugboats are secured and ready to go, the whole procedure only takes about ten minutes.

Katrina Schwartz (in scene): It is a little anticlimactic.

Captain Eric Veloni: We love boring when it comes to this.

Katrina Schwartz (in scene): I didn’t even realize we were moving at first.

Port sounds

Katrina Schwartz (in scene): You pushed off, what’s the next thing.

Christian Barron: I’ll give a command for dead slow ahead. We’ll confirm the engines come up to rpm and then we’ll put the tugs in position so they can follow along so they’re not impeding us, but can still affect the boat if we have an engine or steering failure they can still maneuver the vessel if need be.

Katrina Schwartz: Then he’ll check in with traffic again to let them know he’s underway and get any updates.

Christian Barron: And then we’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.

Katrina Schwartz (in scene): Anything you’re particularly concerned about tonight?

Christian Barron: Tonight, no. We have a little bit of current at the bar, so I just need to make sure I time my turns correctly, use enough rudder, engine.

Katrina Schwartz: Unfortunately, the bar pilots were not keen on me following Christian all the way out into the open ocean to disembark at 9 knots onto the pilot boat. Instead, we’ll be going back down the ladder in the Oakland estuary.

Katrina Schwartz: Thanks, nice to meet you all. Safe voyage.

Captain Eric Veloni: Be safe on the ladder!

Katrina Schwartz: We tramp down many flights of stairs, back to the lowest deck and our ladder.

Katrina Schwartz: It should be easier going down, right.

Sounds of clanking

Pilot boat crew: You’re two from the bottom…

Katrina Schwartz: As we head back towards the Ferry Building, the sun’s last glow seeping from the sky, I’m struck by the vastness of the Bay as the darkness encroaches.

I’m heading home to my warm bed. But a crew of bar pilots is waiting 11 miles offshore rain or shine. At their best, their work is invisible to us. We only notice the stocked shelves, cruise ships at their berths and fuel at the gas station. Our entire city works because they do. Guiding ship after ship through the fog and to safety.

Sound of the pilot boat motoring back to the Embarcadero

Olivia Allen-Price: That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.

Thanks to the KQED Members whose support made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a member, visit donate.kqed.org/podcasts to get started. It only takes a minute and comes with some nice perks. We’ll drop the link in our show notes.

Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.

Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.

I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!

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