Katrina Schwartz is a journalist based in San Francisco. She's worked at KPCC public radio in LA and has reported on air and online for KQED since 2010. She covered how teaching and learning is changing for MindShift between 2012 and 2020. She is the co-host of the MindShift podcast and now produces KQED's Bay Curious podcast.
Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay
Campsites Are Hard to Get In California. Try Dispersed Camping Instead
Stunning Archival Photos of the 1906 Earthquake and Fire
From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond's and Sunset’s Street Names
Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future
Golden Gate Park Secrets Even Locals Might Not Know
The Navy Jet Generations of San Francisco Kids Played On
The Eccentric Personalities Behind Sunnyside Conservatory, a 120-Year-Old Garden in San Francisco
Is It Crow-maggedon? Why Crows Are Flocking to Bay Area Cities Each Winter
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny day, the beauty of San Francisco Bay rivals almost any place in the world. The stately bridges boldly cross its watery expanse, dreamy islands call out for exploration, green or golden hills rise up on all sides and the twinkling lights of the city sparkle in the distance. But on a foggy, windy day, that same paradise can be treacherous for ships coming in and out of the Golden Gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why all ships over 750 gross tons — about 150 feet or longer — are required to use a special mariner who knows the local conditions when they enter or exit the bay. Known as bar pilots, these local guides board vessels about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, take charge of the ship and guide it safely under the bridges and through the bay to its anchorage spot or port berth. They also help move vessels within the bay, like from anchorage to port, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Erik Udd often sees the bar pilot speedboat depart from Pier 9, where the bar pilots are headquartered, as he cycles his pedicab along the Embarcadero.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve seen the boats, and I’ve seen them heading out towards the Golden Gate, but I never thought about the process,” Udd said. So he asked Bay Curious: “What do they do? How does it work? Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the bar pilots came to be\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of reasons San Francisco Bay is a tricky port to enter. First, there’s a large sandbar outside the mouth of the Golden Gate with only a narrow channel through it that’s deep enough for ships to navigate. Then there’s the weather — dense fog, strong winds and winter storms. Lastly, the currents can be deadly and pull ships off course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all these reasons, many Gold Rush-era ships foundered and sank on their way into the bay. And sunken ships are bad for the flow of commerce. They create additional maritime hazards and gum up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12089870 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A pilot boat operator navigates a pilot boat in the San Francisco Bay. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089871\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089871\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ships sit at anchor in the San Francisco Bay in areas known as ‘anchor buckets,’ where commercial vessels can remain for extended periods. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time,” said Anne McIntyre, business director for the San Francisco Bar Pilots. “We were founded in 1850. The first thing the California legislature did was pass the Pilotage Act, and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of this long history lines the walls of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. The first ships they served were sailing ships, but soon steam-powered vessels came on the scene, and eventually, diesel engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089869\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur points to historic photos of early bar pilot boats at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco. The San Francisco Bar Pilot Association was founded in 1850 and is one of the oldest maritime organizations on the Pacific Coast. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the early days, “the pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then climb up the ladder,” said Captain Cevan Lesieur, a bar pilot with more than 10 years of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He has piloted hundreds of ships through the bay’s waters and shook his head at the idea of one man braving the fog and wind alone in a boat powered only by his own strength.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with, these people were just tougher than we are nowadays,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s it like being a bar pilot today?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That’s not to say being a bar pilot today is easy. They have to navigate many types of waterways – including through the open ocean, up and down the Stockton and Sacramento rivers, under several bridges and through a congested central bay. They also pilot all kinds of vessels from massive cargo ships to cruise ships, tankers to bulkers, yachts to car ships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most harrowing part of a bar pilot’s job is open water boarding. Here’s how it works: when a ship approaches San Francisco from the open ocean, it meets up with a station boat that’s always waiting 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew on that boat rotates weekly, but the bar pilots work 365 days a year in all weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089866\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089866\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur (left) prepares to board the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089879\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089879\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"847\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2000x662.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-1536x508.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2048x678.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: A bar pilot boat pulls up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. Right: Capt. Cevan LeSieur boards the Pasha Hawaii ship George III. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the ship approaches, it slows down to 9 knots — about 12 miles per hour — and the pilot boat comes alongside at the same speed. Then, timing the jump carefully, the bar pilot leaps across and grabs onto a ladder hanging on the side of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are not tied into anything when they make this jump. When a ship leaves for sea, this process is reversed, with the bar pilot jumping from the ladder to the moving deck of the pilot boat.[aside postID=news_12088210 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-11-BL-KQED.jpg']“Getting on can be tricky, and people have gone in the water,” said John Carlier, the president of the bar pilots association and a man with more than 30 years on the job. “But getting off and trying to get that small landing area on that deck while that boat’s surfing past you can be a bit sketchy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a pilot does go in the water, he’s wearing a “float coat,” which turns into a lifejacket when it hits the water, complete with lights and a safety whistle. Pilots make the jump in all kinds of weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not safe, you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it,” Lesieur said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He estimated that it’s only about once a year that the weather is so bad that the pilot can’t make the jump. If that happens, the pilot has to stay on the ship until the next port of call and then fly home, and no one wants that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Erik Udd, was interested in knowing if bar pilots receive hazard pay during bad weather, and the answer is no. But they are paid well — in the mid-six figures on average. They are paid by the shipping companies that use their services. There’s a \u003ca href=\"https://sfbarpilots.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Pilotage-Rates.pdf\">rate structure\u003c/a> based on the tonnage of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Becoming a bar pilot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To become a bar pilot, a person must be a mid-career captain with decades of experience already. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Based on those scores, candidates are ranked on a list from which the bar pilots pull when apprenticeships open up. Once in the training program, most people spend close to two years shadowing more experienced pilots and learning all the different routes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento,” Carlier said. “There’s eight different sections. You’re going to do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089872\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089872\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bar pilot Capt. Cevan LeSieur stands on the bridge of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They also have to learn by heart over 670 aids to navigation — the lights and buoys — as well as the depth charts for the entire 5,000-square-mile area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the expertise and local knowledge of the bar pilots, there have been instances when they made mistakes with devastating consequences. In 2007, a ship with a bar pilot in charge \u003ca href=\"https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/remembering-cosco-busan-overview-2007-oil-spill\">clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers\u003c/a> and 58,000 gallons of fuel oil spilled into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic [navigation] equipment, which definitely added to the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge,” Carlier said. “We actually bring our own electronic navigation equipment with us on board now. We also bring our GPS antennas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Bar pilots at work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The container ships that dock at the Port of Oakland to load and unload cargo are massive. The largest ones are as long as the Salesforce Tower is tall, but even more modestly sized ones are huge. The bar pilots have had to adapt as the ships have gotten bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/services/vessels/george-iii\">George III is a container ship\u003c/a> operated by Pasha Hawaii that brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands. It runs the same route every two weeks, leaving Honolulu mostly empty save for a few commodities like macadamia nuts and rum, stops in Oakland to take on cargo and then heads down to Long Beach for more, before returning to Hawaii.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1079\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-1536x1036.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many of the ships operating in the bay are as long as a skyscraper is tall. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the San Francisco Bar Pilots)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability if shipping stopped,” said Ed Washburn, senior vice president of fleet operations. “So it’s very sensitive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crew of the ship signs on for long stints, 10 to 14 weeks, but then gets just as much time off on land. When they’re on board, they work as a team to keep ship operations running smoothly, the loads balanced, and the engines purring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>George III is a unique vessel because it runs on both diesel fuel and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/news-media/news/571/pasha-hawaii-marks-historic-milestone-mv-george-iii-first-lng-powered\">natural gas\u003c/a>, making it a cleaner vessel, but also one with more specific engineering needs. The crew eats, sleeps and works in shifts, building a strong sense of camaraderie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089873\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089873\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crew member on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III works on the bridge while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089878\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089878\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"846\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2000x661.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2048x676.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Mark Bancroft, a second assistant engineer, works in the engine room of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. Right: Crew members eat dinner on the George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When it’s time to push off for sea, the bar pilot boards the ship and heads towards the ship’s bridge, at the top of the vessel. From there, he checks in with the captain, makes sure the equipment has all been tested and communicates with tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90-ton boats and no wind,” said Christian Barron, the bar pilot on duty as George III slowly inched away from the dock. “We’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089875\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089875\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco bar pilot Christian Barron works on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089874\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089874\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A bar pilot boat is docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089876\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089876\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Views of the San Francisco skyline from a bar pilot boat. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Once the ship was safely out of San Francisco Bay, Christian climbed down the ladder and jumped onto the station boat, where he waited for the next ship needing his services to arrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the bar pilots are doing their jobs well, we landlubbers might not even know they exist. We only see the stocked grocery shelves, fuel at the gas pump and cruise ships awaiting passengers at the pier. But to make all of that happen, a bar pilot is working day or night, rain or shine, fog or no, to bring ships safely to port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you ask mariners, they’ll tell you, navigating a boat from the open ocean into the San Francisco Bay is notoriously treacherous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s the dense fog that can make it hard to see. Strong currents constantly rearrange the sea floor, and can quickly throw a vessel off course. And finally – our bridges! If a boat were to strike a pillar it could be\u003cem> catastrophic. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why captains of big ships aren’t allowed to navigate into port on their own. A specially trained mariner called a \u003cem>bar pilot\u003c/em> – hops aboard every ship that comes into San Francisco Bay, and takes over command.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We got a question about those bar pilots, so we sent Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz to the Embarcadero to meet the man who asked it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik Udd said he’d meet me at the Embarcadero BART station. When I emerged on the escalator he was waiting for me, sitting at the helm of a pedicab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s a great retirement job, I get exercise, it is perfect for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While we talk, he’s giving me a ride in his pedicab over to Pier 9…near the Exploratorium…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Oh, there goes a boat right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While Erik pedals along the Embarcadero, he often notices the orange and white boats with the word “PILOT” painted on the side in giant, all caps letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen the boats and I’ve seen them heading out towards the golden gate, but I never thought about the process. What do they do? How does it work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik wants to know everything about the bar pilots. Like, how does the pilot get onto one of those big container ships?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>How big of a boat needs a pilot to come into the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What kind of training do the pilots go through?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Has anyone ever gone in the water? I’m sure someone has gone in the water. Maybe a better question is how many times?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What happens when there’s a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After all, some of the ships coming into the bay are truly massive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s like a building is moving along across the water. Those things are huge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s quite a lot of questions, but I’m up to the task. Erik drops me off at Pier 9, where the Bar Pilots are headquartered. It’s the last office out at the end of the pier and sits behind a chain link fence. But once I’m inside, it looks like a fairly typical office building except the views of the bay are stunning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Anne’s office has the best views in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cevan has been a pilot here for 12 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is the best and most interesting waterway to work on from my experience and most challenging. So I always said if I was gonna become a pilot, it’d be in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Challenging because of the currents, the weather, the varied types of waterways and a congested central bay. Bar pilots can be called upon to move cruise ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, even really big yachts. And they have to be able to skillfully maneuver each type of vessel through narrowly dredged channels up the Sacramento and Stockton rivers and around smaller vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We service all nine Bay Area ports. So we take ships all the way up to West Sacramento, to Stockton, down to Redwood City, even down to Monterey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every ship over about 150 feet is required by law to use a bar pilot to enter and exit the bay, as well as to move from anchor to port within the bay. The pilots serve about 75-hundred vessels a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most dramatic moment for a bar pilot happens out in the open ocean beyond the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>We have what we call our station boat or ocean boats. And one is off shore at all times, about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we have crews out there that rotate every week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>When a large vessel is heading into San Francisco Bay, it meets up with the bar pilot boat out on the ocean and the bar pilot leaps from one to the other — you heard that right — and they are not tied into anything when they do it. Then they climb up a ladder on the outside of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Timing is critical, and especially the worse the weather, the more important timing is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The ships are side-by-side going about 12-miles per hour when the pilot makes his jump. Cevan says there are some weather conditions that make the transfer too dangerous, but it doesn’t happen often…maybe once a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>If it’s not safe you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the pilot is on board, he or she communicates with the captain and crew to bring the vessel safely under the Golden Gate Bridge, through the Bay and to its anchorage spot or port berth. The same happens in reverse, except the pilot has to jump off the ladder and onto the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every bar pilot I talked to had a harrowing story about open water boarding, but Cevan’s is the funniest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>I was boarding a car ship and the conditions were really bad and the ship and the pilot boat were going up and down and up and down. The wind was so bad, I took like 3 attempts. Finally we came alongside and I was on the platform and I jumped and landed on the deck and was laying there. And the mate looked down, and said you’re f**ing crazy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Over their long history, pilots \u003cem>have\u003c/em> died and many have gone in the water, but it’s not common.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>In the modern era, we have not lost a pilot here. And the last time a pilot went into the water has been several years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>If a pilot does miss the jump, he’s wearing a “float coat” that becomes a life jacket when he hits the water, complete with lights and whistles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to answer our question asker, no, they don’t get hazard pay. But they are paid well… on average about 500,000 a year — all of that paid by the companies operating the boats they serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how the bar pilots came to be and Katrina gets to shadow a pilot on a real job. Will she make the jump? All that coming up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sponsor message\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We were on a tour of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz found the halls are lined with evidence of the organization’s very \u003cstrong>long\u003c/strong> history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me cool photos and artifacts from bar pilot history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We have to stop at this one here. This is the original charter from the first California legislative session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anne points to an old looking document on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time. We were founded in 1850. We’re the second oldest business in San Francisco behind Boudin Bread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bar pilots are as old as the state of California. Even back in 1850, state legislators understood the future of San Francisco — California even — depended on the safe flow of ships in and out of the Bay. We couldn’t have all these shipwrecks gumming up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We were the first act of the first California Legislature. So the first thing the California legislature did was pass the pilotage act happened and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Back then, the ships coming to San Francisco were mostly sailing vessels. By the end of the century coal-fired steam engines would come on the scene and later diesel engines. Each era required something different from the bar pilots, Cevan tells me. Boarding sailing ships might have been the most physically demanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>The pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then you’d climb up the ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He shakes his head at the idea of rowing a dingy through dense fog and huge wake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with…These people were just tougher than we are nowadays. \u003cem>(Laughs, fade under)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>To become a bar pilot, you have to be a mid-career captain with many years of experience. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Candidates are ranked based on their scores and are then eligible for an apprenticeship with the bar pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>You’re going to probably do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>John Carlier is the President of the Bar Pilots Association. He says there are eight sections in the Bay, each with their own challenges, and the pilots have to learn all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>And the area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Piloting up the rivers here can be especially challenging. The ships are within two feet of the bottom in narrow channels with little room for error. And it takes a long time, about 9 hours from the open ocean to Stockton or Sacramento, so they usually change bar pilots half way to avoid fatigue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all this training, there have been incidents when ships captained by bar pilots have run into trouble in the Bay. Like in 2007 when an oil tanker clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>Yes, that was a bar pilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip: \u003c/strong>A 900 foot container ship hit the Bay Bridge tower east of the main anchorage. 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. Countless fragile ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>There was some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic nav equipment which definitely added to you know the the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Because of that incident, the bar pilots now bring their own GPS navigational equipment on board with them so they don’t have to rely on the vessel’s equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m going to get to see that in action soon, so we start heading towards a boat with the word “pilot” boldly written on its side tied up out back. We clamor aboard. It looks like a fancy speedboat, and head towards Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot: \u003c/strong>Where do you want to head to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Port of Oakland, George III\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It takes about 20 minutes to cross the bay and soon our small boat is pulling up alongside a massive containership. This boat is considered “small” by shipping standards and it’s still as tall as a 15 story building from the water up to the top. I now have to step from the bobbing deck of the pilot boat onto a rope ladder dangling from the first deck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of ladder clanking against the ship\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I had hoped to do the open ocean leap I’d heard so much about. Climbing about 15 feet up this ladder felt pretty tame by comparison. The water in the Oakland estuary was very calm, kinda the training wheels version of this climb. No heroics for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship, George the III, brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>Everything from medicine to groceries to fertilizer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ed Washburn is senior vice president of fleet operations with Pasha, Hawaii, the company that owns this vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship runs the same two-week route on repeat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability, of shipping stopped. So it’s very sensitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It leaves Honolulu mostly empty, carrying a few commodities like rum and macadamia nuts to the mainland. Then it stops in Oakland to pick up cargo, down to Long Beach for more and back to Honolulu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The value of that is about $50 million in cargo each time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, should we go up to the bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bridge is at the top of the ship and it’s where the bar pilot does their work. We walk up A LOT of steps to get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(sounds of steps under this)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>From up here we have incredible views of the sun setting over the bay and the internal workings of the port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is Christian Barron. He’s also a Cal Maritime graduate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Today, Christian Barron is the bar pilot in charge. But Cevan is hanging out with me, explaining what’s happening so I don’t bug Christian at crucial moments, like when he’s checking in with the captain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Once the tugs have been made fast and the engine’s been tested we can get rolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>The engine has been tested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>These massive ships are hard to maneuver, so pilots use tugboats to pull the ship off the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radio sounds: \u003c/strong>Captain, this is the chief engineer. Show of power. Cables secured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Roger, Dave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Christian checks in with Vessel Traffic Services, basically air traffic control for boats, to let them know his plan and find out if there are other vessels in the shipping lanes he needs to be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Traffic, good evening, 4-5. Preparing to depart Oakland 55 starboard side two bound for sea. Deep draft 32 feet two inches. Tend to Delta-Echo span and deep water traffic lane Working my tugs on 20 Alpha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>VTS Operator:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Roger, copy that, 4-5. George the third preparing to get underway from Oakland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Nothing to worry about. There’s a fair amount of waiting as the crew gets in position and the port workers untie the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>All clear forward\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And then we get going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron:\u003c/strong> All clear fore and aft, stand clear of your tuglines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Artemis and Apollo are the names of the tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Ok, ready to go. Artemis stop and stretch. Apollo stop and stretch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As Christian gives orders, the massive container ship starts to slowly move away from the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90 ton boats and no wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the tugboats are secured and ready to go, the whole procedure only takes about ten minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>It is a little anticlimactic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>We love boring when it comes to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/strong> I didn’t even realize we were moving at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Port sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>You pushed off, what’s the next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>I’ll give a command for dead slow ahead. We’ll confirm the engines come up to rpm and then we’ll put the tugs in position so they can follow along so they’re not impeding us, but can still affect the boat if we have an engine or steering failure they can still maneuver the vessel if need be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Then he’ll check in with traffic again to let them know he’s underway and get any updates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>And then we’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>Anything you’re particularly concerned about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Tonight, no. We have a little bit of current at the bar, so I just need to make sure I time my turns correctly, use enough rudder, engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, the bar pilots were not keen on me following Christian all the way out into the open ocean to disembark at 9 knots onto the pilot boat. Instead, we’ll be going back down the ladder in the Oakland estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Thanks, nice to meet you all. Safe voyage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Be safe on the ladder!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>We tramp down many flights of stairs, back to the lowest deck and our ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It should be easier going down, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of clanking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot boat crew: \u003c/strong>You’re two from the bottom…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As we head back towards the Ferry Building, the sun’s last glow seeping from the sky, I’m struck by the vastness of the Bay as the darkness encroaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m heading home to my warm bed. But a crew of bar pilots is waiting 11 miles offshore rain or shine. At their best, their work is invisible to us. We only notice the stocked shelves, cruise ships at their berths and fuel at the gas station. Our entire city works because they do. Guiding ship after ship through the fog and to safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of the pilot boat motoring back to the Embarcadero\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the KQED Members whose support made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a member, visit donate.kqed.org/podcasts to get started. It only takes a minute and comes with some nice perks. We’ll drop the link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "San Francisco Bay is notorious in the shipping world for its tricky waters. That’s why bar pilots — specially trained mariners — board every ship entering or exiting the bay and guide it to safety.",
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"title": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny day, the beauty of San Francisco Bay rivals almost any place in the world. The stately bridges boldly cross its watery expanse, dreamy islands call out for exploration, green or golden hills rise up on all sides and the twinkling lights of the city sparkle in the distance. But on a foggy, windy day, that same paradise can be treacherous for ships coming in and out of the Golden Gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why all ships over 750 gross tons — about 150 feet or longer — are required to use a special mariner who knows the local conditions when they enter or exit the bay. Known as bar pilots, these local guides board vessels about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, take charge of the ship and guide it safely under the bridges and through the bay to its anchorage spot or port berth. They also help move vessels within the bay, like from anchorage to port, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Erik Udd often sees the bar pilot speedboat depart from Pier 9, where the bar pilots are headquartered, as he cycles his pedicab along the Embarcadero.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve seen the boats, and I’ve seen them heading out towards the Golden Gate, but I never thought about the process,” Udd said. So he asked Bay Curious: “What do they do? How does it work? Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the bar pilots came to be\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of reasons San Francisco Bay is a tricky port to enter. First, there’s a large sandbar outside the mouth of the Golden Gate with only a narrow channel through it that’s deep enough for ships to navigate. Then there’s the weather — dense fog, strong winds and winter storms. Lastly, the currents can be deadly and pull ships off course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all these reasons, many Gold Rush-era ships foundered and sank on their way into the bay. And sunken ships are bad for the flow of commerce. They create additional maritime hazards and gum up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12089870 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A pilot boat operator navigates a pilot boat in the San Francisco Bay. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089871\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089871\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ships sit at anchor in the San Francisco Bay in areas known as ‘anchor buckets,’ where commercial vessels can remain for extended periods. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time,” said Anne McIntyre, business director for the San Francisco Bar Pilots. “We were founded in 1850. The first thing the California legislature did was pass the Pilotage Act, and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of this long history lines the walls of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. The first ships they served were sailing ships, but soon steam-powered vessels came on the scene, and eventually, diesel engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089869\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur points to historic photos of early bar pilot boats at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco. The San Francisco Bar Pilot Association was founded in 1850 and is one of the oldest maritime organizations on the Pacific Coast. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the early days, “the pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then climb up the ladder,” said Captain Cevan Lesieur, a bar pilot with more than 10 years of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He has piloted hundreds of ships through the bay’s waters and shook his head at the idea of one man braving the fog and wind alone in a boat powered only by his own strength.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with, these people were just tougher than we are nowadays,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s it like being a bar pilot today?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That’s not to say being a bar pilot today is easy. They have to navigate many types of waterways – including through the open ocean, up and down the Stockton and Sacramento rivers, under several bridges and through a congested central bay. They also pilot all kinds of vessels from massive cargo ships to cruise ships, tankers to bulkers, yachts to car ships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most harrowing part of a bar pilot’s job is open water boarding. Here’s how it works: when a ship approaches San Francisco from the open ocean, it meets up with a station boat that’s always waiting 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew on that boat rotates weekly, but the bar pilots work 365 days a year in all weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089866\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089866\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur (left) prepares to board the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089879\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089879\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"847\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2000x662.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-1536x508.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2048x678.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: A bar pilot boat pulls up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. Right: Capt. Cevan LeSieur boards the Pasha Hawaii ship George III. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the ship approaches, it slows down to 9 knots — about 12 miles per hour — and the pilot boat comes alongside at the same speed. Then, timing the jump carefully, the bar pilot leaps across and grabs onto a ladder hanging on the side of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are not tied into anything when they make this jump. When a ship leaves for sea, this process is reversed, with the bar pilot jumping from the ladder to the moving deck of the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Getting on can be tricky, and people have gone in the water,” said John Carlier, the president of the bar pilots association and a man with more than 30 years on the job. “But getting off and trying to get that small landing area on that deck while that boat’s surfing past you can be a bit sketchy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a pilot does go in the water, he’s wearing a “float coat,” which turns into a lifejacket when it hits the water, complete with lights and a safety whistle. Pilots make the jump in all kinds of weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not safe, you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it,” Lesieur said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He estimated that it’s only about once a year that the weather is so bad that the pilot can’t make the jump. If that happens, the pilot has to stay on the ship until the next port of call and then fly home, and no one wants that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Erik Udd, was interested in knowing if bar pilots receive hazard pay during bad weather, and the answer is no. But they are paid well — in the mid-six figures on average. They are paid by the shipping companies that use their services. There’s a \u003ca href=\"https://sfbarpilots.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Pilotage-Rates.pdf\">rate structure\u003c/a> based on the tonnage of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Becoming a bar pilot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To become a bar pilot, a person must be a mid-career captain with decades of experience already. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Based on those scores, candidates are ranked on a list from which the bar pilots pull when apprenticeships open up. Once in the training program, most people spend close to two years shadowing more experienced pilots and learning all the different routes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento,” Carlier said. “There’s eight different sections. You’re going to do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089872\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089872\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bar pilot Capt. Cevan LeSieur stands on the bridge of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They also have to learn by heart over 670 aids to navigation — the lights and buoys — as well as the depth charts for the entire 5,000-square-mile area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the expertise and local knowledge of the bar pilots, there have been instances when they made mistakes with devastating consequences. In 2007, a ship with a bar pilot in charge \u003ca href=\"https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/remembering-cosco-busan-overview-2007-oil-spill\">clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers\u003c/a> and 58,000 gallons of fuel oil spilled into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic [navigation] equipment, which definitely added to the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge,” Carlier said. “We actually bring our own electronic navigation equipment with us on board now. We also bring our GPS antennas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Bar pilots at work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The container ships that dock at the Port of Oakland to load and unload cargo are massive. The largest ones are as long as the Salesforce Tower is tall, but even more modestly sized ones are huge. The bar pilots have had to adapt as the ships have gotten bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/services/vessels/george-iii\">George III is a container ship\u003c/a> operated by Pasha Hawaii that brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands. It runs the same route every two weeks, leaving Honolulu mostly empty save for a few commodities like macadamia nuts and rum, stops in Oakland to take on cargo and then heads down to Long Beach for more, before returning to Hawaii.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1079\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-1536x1036.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many of the ships operating in the bay are as long as a skyscraper is tall. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the San Francisco Bar Pilots)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability if shipping stopped,” said Ed Washburn, senior vice president of fleet operations. “So it’s very sensitive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crew of the ship signs on for long stints, 10 to 14 weeks, but then gets just as much time off on land. When they’re on board, they work as a team to keep ship operations running smoothly, the loads balanced, and the engines purring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>George III is a unique vessel because it runs on both diesel fuel and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/news-media/news/571/pasha-hawaii-marks-historic-milestone-mv-george-iii-first-lng-powered\">natural gas\u003c/a>, making it a cleaner vessel, but also one with more specific engineering needs. The crew eats, sleeps and works in shifts, building a strong sense of camaraderie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089873\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089873\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crew member on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III works on the bridge while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089878\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089878\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"846\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2000x661.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2048x676.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Mark Bancroft, a second assistant engineer, works in the engine room of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. Right: Crew members eat dinner on the George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When it’s time to push off for sea, the bar pilot boards the ship and heads towards the ship’s bridge, at the top of the vessel. From there, he checks in with the captain, makes sure the equipment has all been tested and communicates with tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90-ton boats and no wind,” said Christian Barron, the bar pilot on duty as George III slowly inched away from the dock. “We’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089875\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089875\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco bar pilot Christian Barron works on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089874\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089874\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A bar pilot boat is docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089876\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089876\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Views of the San Francisco skyline from a bar pilot boat. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Once the ship was safely out of San Francisco Bay, Christian climbed down the ladder and jumped onto the station boat, where he waited for the next ship needing his services to arrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the bar pilots are doing their jobs well, we landlubbers might not even know they exist. We only see the stocked grocery shelves, fuel at the gas pump and cruise ships awaiting passengers at the pier. But to make all of that happen, a bar pilot is working day or night, rain or shine, fog or no, to bring ships safely to port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you ask mariners, they’ll tell you, navigating a boat from the open ocean into the San Francisco Bay is notoriously treacherous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s the dense fog that can make it hard to see. Strong currents constantly rearrange the sea floor, and can quickly throw a vessel off course. And finally – our bridges! If a boat were to strike a pillar it could be\u003cem> catastrophic. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why captains of big ships aren’t allowed to navigate into port on their own. A specially trained mariner called a \u003cem>bar pilot\u003c/em> – hops aboard every ship that comes into San Francisco Bay, and takes over command.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We got a question about those bar pilots, so we sent Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz to the Embarcadero to meet the man who asked it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik Udd said he’d meet me at the Embarcadero BART station. When I emerged on the escalator he was waiting for me, sitting at the helm of a pedicab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s a great retirement job, I get exercise, it is perfect for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While we talk, he’s giving me a ride in his pedicab over to Pier 9…near the Exploratorium…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Oh, there goes a boat right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While Erik pedals along the Embarcadero, he often notices the orange and white boats with the word “PILOT” painted on the side in giant, all caps letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen the boats and I’ve seen them heading out towards the golden gate, but I never thought about the process. What do they do? How does it work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik wants to know everything about the bar pilots. Like, how does the pilot get onto one of those big container ships?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>How big of a boat needs a pilot to come into the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What kind of training do the pilots go through?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Has anyone ever gone in the water? I’m sure someone has gone in the water. Maybe a better question is how many times?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What happens when there’s a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After all, some of the ships coming into the bay are truly massive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s like a building is moving along across the water. Those things are huge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s quite a lot of questions, but I’m up to the task. Erik drops me off at Pier 9, where the Bar Pilots are headquartered. It’s the last office out at the end of the pier and sits behind a chain link fence. But once I’m inside, it looks like a fairly typical office building except the views of the bay are stunning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Anne’s office has the best views in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cevan has been a pilot here for 12 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is the best and most interesting waterway to work on from my experience and most challenging. So I always said if I was gonna become a pilot, it’d be in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Challenging because of the currents, the weather, the varied types of waterways and a congested central bay. Bar pilots can be called upon to move cruise ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, even really big yachts. And they have to be able to skillfully maneuver each type of vessel through narrowly dredged channels up the Sacramento and Stockton rivers and around smaller vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We service all nine Bay Area ports. So we take ships all the way up to West Sacramento, to Stockton, down to Redwood City, even down to Monterey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every ship over about 150 feet is required by law to use a bar pilot to enter and exit the bay, as well as to move from anchor to port within the bay. The pilots serve about 75-hundred vessels a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most dramatic moment for a bar pilot happens out in the open ocean beyond the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>We have what we call our station boat or ocean boats. And one is off shore at all times, about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we have crews out there that rotate every week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>When a large vessel is heading into San Francisco Bay, it meets up with the bar pilot boat out on the ocean and the bar pilot leaps from one to the other — you heard that right — and they are not tied into anything when they do it. Then they climb up a ladder on the outside of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Timing is critical, and especially the worse the weather, the more important timing is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The ships are side-by-side going about 12-miles per hour when the pilot makes his jump. Cevan says there are some weather conditions that make the transfer too dangerous, but it doesn’t happen often…maybe once a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>If it’s not safe you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the pilot is on board, he or she communicates with the captain and crew to bring the vessel safely under the Golden Gate Bridge, through the Bay and to its anchorage spot or port berth. The same happens in reverse, except the pilot has to jump off the ladder and onto the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every bar pilot I talked to had a harrowing story about open water boarding, but Cevan’s is the funniest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>I was boarding a car ship and the conditions were really bad and the ship and the pilot boat were going up and down and up and down. The wind was so bad, I took like 3 attempts. Finally we came alongside and I was on the platform and I jumped and landed on the deck and was laying there. And the mate looked down, and said you’re f**ing crazy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Over their long history, pilots \u003cem>have\u003c/em> died and many have gone in the water, but it’s not common.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>In the modern era, we have not lost a pilot here. And the last time a pilot went into the water has been several years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>If a pilot does miss the jump, he’s wearing a “float coat” that becomes a life jacket when he hits the water, complete with lights and whistles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to answer our question asker, no, they don’t get hazard pay. But they are paid well… on average about 500,000 a year — all of that paid by the companies operating the boats they serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how the bar pilots came to be and Katrina gets to shadow a pilot on a real job. Will she make the jump? All that coming up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sponsor message\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We were on a tour of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz found the halls are lined with evidence of the organization’s very \u003cstrong>long\u003c/strong> history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me cool photos and artifacts from bar pilot history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We have to stop at this one here. This is the original charter from the first California legislative session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anne points to an old looking document on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time. We were founded in 1850. We’re the second oldest business in San Francisco behind Boudin Bread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bar pilots are as old as the state of California. Even back in 1850, state legislators understood the future of San Francisco — California even — depended on the safe flow of ships in and out of the Bay. We couldn’t have all these shipwrecks gumming up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We were the first act of the first California Legislature. So the first thing the California legislature did was pass the pilotage act happened and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Back then, the ships coming to San Francisco were mostly sailing vessels. By the end of the century coal-fired steam engines would come on the scene and later diesel engines. Each era required something different from the bar pilots, Cevan tells me. Boarding sailing ships might have been the most physically demanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>The pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then you’d climb up the ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He shakes his head at the idea of rowing a dingy through dense fog and huge wake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with…These people were just tougher than we are nowadays. \u003cem>(Laughs, fade under)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>To become a bar pilot, you have to be a mid-career captain with many years of experience. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Candidates are ranked based on their scores and are then eligible for an apprenticeship with the bar pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>You’re going to probably do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>John Carlier is the President of the Bar Pilots Association. He says there are eight sections in the Bay, each with their own challenges, and the pilots have to learn all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>And the area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Piloting up the rivers here can be especially challenging. The ships are within two feet of the bottom in narrow channels with little room for error. And it takes a long time, about 9 hours from the open ocean to Stockton or Sacramento, so they usually change bar pilots half way to avoid fatigue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all this training, there have been incidents when ships captained by bar pilots have run into trouble in the Bay. Like in 2007 when an oil tanker clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>Yes, that was a bar pilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip: \u003c/strong>A 900 foot container ship hit the Bay Bridge tower east of the main anchorage. 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. Countless fragile ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>There was some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic nav equipment which definitely added to you know the the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Because of that incident, the bar pilots now bring their own GPS navigational equipment on board with them so they don’t have to rely on the vessel’s equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m going to get to see that in action soon, so we start heading towards a boat with the word “pilot” boldly written on its side tied up out back. We clamor aboard. It looks like a fancy speedboat, and head towards Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot: \u003c/strong>Where do you want to head to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Port of Oakland, George III\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It takes about 20 minutes to cross the bay and soon our small boat is pulling up alongside a massive containership. This boat is considered “small” by shipping standards and it’s still as tall as a 15 story building from the water up to the top. I now have to step from the bobbing deck of the pilot boat onto a rope ladder dangling from the first deck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of ladder clanking against the ship\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I had hoped to do the open ocean leap I’d heard so much about. Climbing about 15 feet up this ladder felt pretty tame by comparison. The water in the Oakland estuary was very calm, kinda the training wheels version of this climb. No heroics for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship, George the III, brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>Everything from medicine to groceries to fertilizer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ed Washburn is senior vice president of fleet operations with Pasha, Hawaii, the company that owns this vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship runs the same two-week route on repeat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability, of shipping stopped. So it’s very sensitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It leaves Honolulu mostly empty, carrying a few commodities like rum and macadamia nuts to the mainland. Then it stops in Oakland to pick up cargo, down to Long Beach for more and back to Honolulu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The value of that is about $50 million in cargo each time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, should we go up to the bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bridge is at the top of the ship and it’s where the bar pilot does their work. We walk up A LOT of steps to get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(sounds of steps under this)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>From up here we have incredible views of the sun setting over the bay and the internal workings of the port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is Christian Barron. He’s also a Cal Maritime graduate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Today, Christian Barron is the bar pilot in charge. But Cevan is hanging out with me, explaining what’s happening so I don’t bug Christian at crucial moments, like when he’s checking in with the captain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Once the tugs have been made fast and the engine’s been tested we can get rolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>The engine has been tested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>These massive ships are hard to maneuver, so pilots use tugboats to pull the ship off the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radio sounds: \u003c/strong>Captain, this is the chief engineer. Show of power. Cables secured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Roger, Dave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Christian checks in with Vessel Traffic Services, basically air traffic control for boats, to let them know his plan and find out if there are other vessels in the shipping lanes he needs to be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Traffic, good evening, 4-5. Preparing to depart Oakland 55 starboard side two bound for sea. Deep draft 32 feet two inches. Tend to Delta-Echo span and deep water traffic lane Working my tugs on 20 Alpha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>VTS Operator:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Roger, copy that, 4-5. George the third preparing to get underway from Oakland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Nothing to worry about. There’s a fair amount of waiting as the crew gets in position and the port workers untie the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>All clear forward\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And then we get going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron:\u003c/strong> All clear fore and aft, stand clear of your tuglines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Artemis and Apollo are the names of the tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Ok, ready to go. Artemis stop and stretch. Apollo stop and stretch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As Christian gives orders, the massive container ship starts to slowly move away from the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90 ton boats and no wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the tugboats are secured and ready to go, the whole procedure only takes about ten minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>It is a little anticlimactic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>We love boring when it comes to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/strong> I didn’t even realize we were moving at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Port sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>You pushed off, what’s the next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>I’ll give a command for dead slow ahead. We’ll confirm the engines come up to rpm and then we’ll put the tugs in position so they can follow along so they’re not impeding us, but can still affect the boat if we have an engine or steering failure they can still maneuver the vessel if need be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Then he’ll check in with traffic again to let them know he’s underway and get any updates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>And then we’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>Anything you’re particularly concerned about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Tonight, no. We have a little bit of current at the bar, so I just need to make sure I time my turns correctly, use enough rudder, engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, the bar pilots were not keen on me following Christian all the way out into the open ocean to disembark at 9 knots onto the pilot boat. Instead, we’ll be going back down the ladder in the Oakland estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Thanks, nice to meet you all. Safe voyage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Be safe on the ladder!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>We tramp down many flights of stairs, back to the lowest deck and our ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It should be easier going down, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of clanking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot boat crew: \u003c/strong>You’re two from the bottom…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As we head back towards the Ferry Building, the sun’s last glow seeping from the sky, I’m struck by the vastness of the Bay as the darkness encroaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m heading home to my warm bed. But a crew of bar pilots is waiting 11 miles offshore rain or shine. At their best, their work is invisible to us. We only notice the stocked shelves, cruise ships at their berths and fuel at the gas station. Our entire city works because they do. Guiding ship after ship through the fog and to safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of the pilot boat motoring back to the Embarcadero\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the KQED Members whose support made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a member, visit donate.kqed.org/podcasts to get started. It only takes a minute and comes with some nice perks. We’ll drop the link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Campsites Are Hard to Get In California. Try Dispersed Camping Instead",
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"content": "\u003cp> \u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is a beautiful state with incredible natural scenery. But it can sometimes feel daunting to actually get out and take advantage of all the state has to offer because there are so many other people vying for the same campsites and permits. The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973183/want-to-go-camping-near-the-bay-area-this-summer-make-your-reservations-now#:~:text=Camping%20on%20federal%20Forest%20Service%20or%20BLM%20land\">process to reserve campsites\u003c/a> is notoriously cumbersome and favors people who know their plans in advance. But what if you find yourself with a free summer weekend? Dispersed camping might be just the thing, but it’s worth knowing what you’re getting yourself into. We break down the main things to be aware of so that you can have a great time and stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you’re looking for more resources about camping, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/explainers\">KQED’s Audience Desk\u003c/a> has a ton of helpful guides:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083697/how-to-find-dispersed-camping-california-near-san-francisco-bay-area-free-campsites-public-lands-national-forests-blm\">Dispersed Camping 101: How to Find Free Campsites Near the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082396/cheap-camping-near-bay-area-checklist-gear-cookware-tent-rental-sleeping-bag-pad\">How Cheaply Can You Camp In the Bay Area Without Sacrificing Comfort?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035515/where-to-go-camping-in-the-south-bay\">Where to Go Camping In the South Bay\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11920867/how-to-find-free-camping-in-californias-national-forests\">How to Find Free Camping in California’s National Forests\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Bay Curious audience has shown us over the years that you all are very interested in camping. In 2017, we did a story about how bots snap up campsites, making it nearly impossible for real humans to click their way into a primo reservation. And you made it one of our most popular stories of the year. Last year, we offered a little update on that story. TLDR, things are better, but still, it’s tough out there. And we offered some tips on how to be a camping reservation making master. This year, we wanted to help you even more by going in depth on how to get out and go camping if you’re maybe not the type of person who could wake up early and make a reservation six months in advance. Or maybe if you feel like being at a campsite that’s a stone’s throw from the next group isn’t quite getting away from it all. Today, we’re talking about dispersed camping. No reservations needed, just show up, set up, and go. Could it be camping at its finest, easiest, truest form, or could it be more than you bargained for? Here to guide us through it all and answer your questions about dispersed camping is KQED’s outdoor reporter, Sarah Wright. Welcome, Sarah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I gotta start by showing my cards here. I have done some dispersed camping myself. For people who have not tried this yet, what is dispersed camping?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so I have also done quite a lot of dispersed camping, most of it backpacking, so hiking out to a secluded spot all by yourself, which I think is like the best way to experience nature, but there’s a way to do that without hiking at all with your car. Dispersed camping is where you are usually going to a federal government wilderness area, there’s no campground, you’re on public land, It’s usually free to camp out there. And it’s sort of like a safari. That’s how Ben Easley, the founder of Overland Trail Guides, described it to me. He runs a website that offers downloadable guides and GPS waypoints for remote camping all over the US.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s still some amazing campgrounds out there, don’t get me wrong, but I think once you get turned on to dispersed camping, you can make better educated decisions on where to camp that are gonna meet your criteria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It sounds like an absolute dream, but there are some drawbacks that people need to understand up front, right? What are those?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because you’re not at a developed campsite, there’s not gonna be any facilities. That means no bathrooms, no running water, often there’s no cell service, there’s trash service either, so you’ll have to pack out everything you bring in. It’s not really a campsite. It’s just a spot where you can set up and you’ll be out there completely on your own. So logistically, you need to be ready for that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You’ll still see people when you go to Spurs camping, but once you kind of get the hang of it, even with 40 million people in the state, you can absolutely find locations where you won’t see a neighbor around you if you know where to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But none of these places are particularly close to here. We should also be upfront about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, that’s right. Typically, you can only disperse camp on federal lands. That means you have to get out of our local state parks, our local beaches, where everything’s regulated and developed campsites are the norms. And you have to go to places like Tahoe National Forest or Mendocino, a few hours farther away, but a chance to explore a new wilderness area. How do you find a place to disperse camp? What do you look for? First, I would advise figuring out where you want to go. Do you want be in Redwood Forest? Do you wanna be up in high alpine lakes? You wanna be by the beach? Narrow it down generally to a region and then do your research. There’s a ton of information online. There are lots of YouTube accounts, lots of bloggers who will show you kind of the opportunities in those areas. Your next step is to figure out what agency manages the land that you’re trying to go on. So go to the website of that agency. It’s probably the Bureau of Land Management or the US Forest Service. And it might be as easy as downloading the free maps on that website to figure out where is a road that you can take and where can you disperse camp. The best advice that Ben gave me and that I agree with is to just call up the local ranger station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know people don’t do this anymore, but you’d be amazed how much information you can simply get by just picking up a phone. And sometimes the people that you talk to will tell you their secret spots of places to go check out as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If this is sounding intimidating, but people are still interested, is there sort of a recommendation for where you might get started?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You don’t want to design your own itinerary, you can download some expert resources. So there are free and paid apps that have overlays essentially, so maps that can tell you where the U.S. Forest Service or BLM land is and help you design a route through these lands in order to camp somewhere that’s for sure on public, not private land, which is important. And so some of the paid apps are apps like Onyx or Gaia GPS or The Dirt. And the good thing about these apps is most of them offer like a two-week free promo period. So you can test them out and see if you like them and if they’re helpful before committing. There’s also free apps like Cal Topo. They take a little bit more tinkering and time to get used to, but if you’re someone who’s really into like… Maps and navigating, play around in those and you can even build routes and have them accessible offline while you’re actually camping.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And maybe walk me through, what was your experience of going dispersed camping? Like you roll up, what then?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of my favorite things about this first camping is that you have to have a first choice, a second choice, and a third choice, because you don’t know if people are going to be there. So my experience is you roll up and you’re shocked and excited that your first choice is available and hopefully as beautiful as you thought. But you always have to be prepared in the case that someone’s already there. And Ben gave me good advice, you know, if somebody’s in the spot you were hoping to get.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When there’s other room around you, the expectation is that, like, you should respect that somebody got that site before you and you should try to find somewhere else.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My experience in general has been that there’s more than enough space to go around. You can go down the dirt road a couple more miles and find an equally great spot.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ll say a lot of the dispersed camping I’ve done has been a little bit more, like, of the dirt bag variety, I would say. So the camp site that we were at wasn’t particularly beautiful, but it was more about proximity to something that was really cool. So we’ve crashed a couple times outside of Yosemite. There’s some forest service land that is not particularly notable, but it’s really about just having a place to sleep so you can wake up early and then get into Yosemite and have a great day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re going to pause for a quick break. More just ahead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some friends of mine went dispersed camping for their very first trip this past weekend. And I was asking them about what questions they were facing as they were sort of getting ready to, you know, embark on this new adventure. And one of their biggest concerns was about water. How do you camp without a clean water source or a spigot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You basically have two options. If the place you’re going, you know, has access to a stream or a river or a lake, you can pack a water filter and just make sure you’re also packing like some sort of receptacle to hold the water in. So I bring these big two, three liter bags. You can bring, you know, those sort of car camping jugs, but if you aren’t sure you are gonna have water, it’s always kind of better to be safe than sorry. Just bring enough. And make sure you have enough to cook. Enough to clean, enough to put out a fire if you create a fire. So just like have extra as insurance. Also if it’s hotter than you think it’s going to be all you have to do is be prepared. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what about fires? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">First thing first you must check if you’re allowed to build a campfire at the place you’re going and this might be seasonal. So check the website of the place you’re going call the ranger if you have questions. Just triple check whether or not you’re allowed to build a campfire, if you are. Typically, you’ll be required to make it in sort of a cleared out space with some rocks. There might even be dispersed sites like past people who have made, sort of, little campfire area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Anywhere you’re camping in California, you need to get a California campfire permit. Even if you’re not going to make a campfire, if you are going to cook using a stove, if you’re going to use fire for any reason at all while you’re out there, you need to have a valid campfire permit. It’s like a five minute video. You sign up, it’s free. It just to remind you of how to safely use fire out in the backcountry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And finally, we have to talk about it, but toilets. You won’t find any if you’re dispersed camping for the most part. What are guidelines people need to keep in mind for when nature calls?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, so there’s this handy tool called a trowel and you should always have one. It’s basically like a mini shovel for your poop. And most regulations here in California are to bury your poop six to eight inches deep in a hole. And you wanna be at least 200 feet away from any water sources. And it’s important that you dig deep enough, you go in the hole, you cover it up, and try to- do it like also away from where anyone might be camping or anything like that. I personally always pack out my toilet paper. I know some people bury their toilet paper here on the West Coast. The climate is so dry that that toilet paper is not going to be decomposing at a reasonable rate. I put a ziplock inside of a ziplock. And I put all of my toilet paper in there and pack it out with the rest of my trash and just double-check some wilderness areas here in California will even require that you use a wag bag. It sounds more fun than it is. It’s basically an insulated, like scented Ziploc bag that you had to poop in and that’s so that you don’t leave any of your waste behind at all. And that may sound crazy, but. If you’ve ever been to an area that requires a wag bag, you’ll immediately understand why. It’s like beautiful granite landscapes where there are no trees, there’s no soil. So there’s just really no chance of your poop being, you know, biodegradable in a reasonable amount of time. So that’s something that you have to make sure that you’re prepared to do. And that means like bringing enough trash bags where you feel comfortable in your vehicle, storing your poop trash. Somewhere away from your food, away from your clothes, away from everything else. So just be prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds so fun, but I mean, wag bags are great to have no matter what, even if you think you’re gonna be able to dig a hole because eight inches is pretty deep. You might not always have that much, I don’t know, digging interest in you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Digging interest and also like warning time, like, if you’re just like gotta go it’s nice to have a wag bag ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, so if people are interested, where might they get started with some of this this summer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so Ben actually had a really good suggestion. It’s to go to Jackson Demonstration State Forest that’s up in Mendocino County. It’s not technically dispersed camping, but it’s an area that’s managed by Cal Fire and the sites are super spread out. They’re first come first serve and there are no facilities very similar to dispersed camping except there are outhouses. So he suggested it as a great sort of intro trip if you’re interested in dispersed camping, you want to start bringing your own water, bringing your own, you know, emergency devices, et cetera, but you’re a little scared to get out there for real. That’s a great first spot to check out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The other suggestion I have is to pick the highway closest to you that goes up into the Sierras and find a spot at least a mile off of the highway in the National Forest there. So that’s likely to be like Tahoe National Forest or El Dorado or Stanislaus. And these types of spots are so beautiful. They’re almost Tahoe-like in their alpine wilderness, but without the crowds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We like to use the motor vehicle use map that the National Forest puts out that has a little bit more details about where all you can drive your car if you are in a National Forest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, that map is super helpful and all those apps I mentioned have that as an overlay so you can check your route that you’re building with sort of those access areas. And of course, make sure that your car can handle the roads that you are planning to go down. Many of these roads are probably dirt or gravel roads and aren’t super well maintained. So just double check before you’re going about whether it’s a paved road or not and whether or not your car could handle it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those are some great tips. Sarah, thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah Wright is the outdoors reporter for KQED. She has a full guide to dispersed camping on kqed.org with lots of links and resources for planning your first trip. We’ll put a link in our show notes. Every month we invite our audience to vote on some questions we’re considering answering on the show. Our June round just went up. Here are your options. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I have lived in the Richmond District for decades and heard that it is also known as Little Russia. How did that happen? There’s a large Russian cathedral and several Russian stores and delis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I walked through the Presidio and noticed many beautiful private-looking residences. Is the public allowed to live there? Is it still a Navy and Army property? Who maintains this lovely park?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Was there a steam railroad through Noe Valley and the Mission? Is there a way left to see it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cast your vote at BayCurious.org. It’s quick and easy. Bake Your Race is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, happy trails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Singing] Happy trails to you until we meet again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ooh, can we auto tune that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"title": "Campsites Are Hard to Get In California. Try Dispersed Camping Instead | KQED",
"description": "View the full episode transcript. California is a beautiful state with incredible natural scenery. But it can sometimes feel daunting to actually get out and take advantage of all the state has to offer because there are so many other people vying for the same campsites and permits. The process to reserve campsites is notoriously",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is a beautiful state with incredible natural scenery. But it can sometimes feel daunting to actually get out and take advantage of all the state has to offer because there are so many other people vying for the same campsites and permits. The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973183/want-to-go-camping-near-the-bay-area-this-summer-make-your-reservations-now#:~:text=Camping%20on%20federal%20Forest%20Service%20or%20BLM%20land\">process to reserve campsites\u003c/a> is notoriously cumbersome and favors people who know their plans in advance. But what if you find yourself with a free summer weekend? Dispersed camping might be just the thing, but it’s worth knowing what you’re getting yourself into. We break down the main things to be aware of so that you can have a great time and stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you’re looking for more resources about camping, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/explainers\">KQED’s Audience Desk\u003c/a> has a ton of helpful guides:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083697/how-to-find-dispersed-camping-california-near-san-francisco-bay-area-free-campsites-public-lands-national-forests-blm\">Dispersed Camping 101: How to Find Free Campsites Near the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082396/cheap-camping-near-bay-area-checklist-gear-cookware-tent-rental-sleeping-bag-pad\">How Cheaply Can You Camp In the Bay Area Without Sacrificing Comfort?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035515/where-to-go-camping-in-the-south-bay\">Where to Go Camping In the South Bay\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11920867/how-to-find-free-camping-in-californias-national-forests\">How to Find Free Camping in California’s National Forests\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Bay Curious audience has shown us over the years that you all are very interested in camping. In 2017, we did a story about how bots snap up campsites, making it nearly impossible for real humans to click their way into a primo reservation. And you made it one of our most popular stories of the year. Last year, we offered a little update on that story. TLDR, things are better, but still, it’s tough out there. And we offered some tips on how to be a camping reservation making master. This year, we wanted to help you even more by going in depth on how to get out and go camping if you’re maybe not the type of person who could wake up early and make a reservation six months in advance. Or maybe if you feel like being at a campsite that’s a stone’s throw from the next group isn’t quite getting away from it all. Today, we’re talking about dispersed camping. No reservations needed, just show up, set up, and go. Could it be camping at its finest, easiest, truest form, or could it be more than you bargained for? Here to guide us through it all and answer your questions about dispersed camping is KQED’s outdoor reporter, Sarah Wright. Welcome, Sarah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I gotta start by showing my cards here. I have done some dispersed camping myself. For people who have not tried this yet, what is dispersed camping?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so I have also done quite a lot of dispersed camping, most of it backpacking, so hiking out to a secluded spot all by yourself, which I think is like the best way to experience nature, but there’s a way to do that without hiking at all with your car. Dispersed camping is where you are usually going to a federal government wilderness area, there’s no campground, you’re on public land, It’s usually free to camp out there. And it’s sort of like a safari. That’s how Ben Easley, the founder of Overland Trail Guides, described it to me. He runs a website that offers downloadable guides and GPS waypoints for remote camping all over the US.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s still some amazing campgrounds out there, don’t get me wrong, but I think once you get turned on to dispersed camping, you can make better educated decisions on where to camp that are gonna meet your criteria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It sounds like an absolute dream, but there are some drawbacks that people need to understand up front, right? What are those?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because you’re not at a developed campsite, there’s not gonna be any facilities. That means no bathrooms, no running water, often there’s no cell service, there’s trash service either, so you’ll have to pack out everything you bring in. It’s not really a campsite. It’s just a spot where you can set up and you’ll be out there completely on your own. So logistically, you need to be ready for that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You’ll still see people when you go to Spurs camping, but once you kind of get the hang of it, even with 40 million people in the state, you can absolutely find locations where you won’t see a neighbor around you if you know where to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But none of these places are particularly close to here. We should also be upfront about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, that’s right. Typically, you can only disperse camp on federal lands. That means you have to get out of our local state parks, our local beaches, where everything’s regulated and developed campsites are the norms. And you have to go to places like Tahoe National Forest or Mendocino, a few hours farther away, but a chance to explore a new wilderness area. How do you find a place to disperse camp? What do you look for? First, I would advise figuring out where you want to go. Do you want be in Redwood Forest? Do you wanna be up in high alpine lakes? You wanna be by the beach? Narrow it down generally to a region and then do your research. There’s a ton of information online. There are lots of YouTube accounts, lots of bloggers who will show you kind of the opportunities in those areas. Your next step is to figure out what agency manages the land that you’re trying to go on. So go to the website of that agency. It’s probably the Bureau of Land Management or the US Forest Service. And it might be as easy as downloading the free maps on that website to figure out where is a road that you can take and where can you disperse camp. The best advice that Ben gave me and that I agree with is to just call up the local ranger station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know people don’t do this anymore, but you’d be amazed how much information you can simply get by just picking up a phone. And sometimes the people that you talk to will tell you their secret spots of places to go check out as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If this is sounding intimidating, but people are still interested, is there sort of a recommendation for where you might get started?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You don’t want to design your own itinerary, you can download some expert resources. So there are free and paid apps that have overlays essentially, so maps that can tell you where the U.S. Forest Service or BLM land is and help you design a route through these lands in order to camp somewhere that’s for sure on public, not private land, which is important. And so some of the paid apps are apps like Onyx or Gaia GPS or The Dirt. And the good thing about these apps is most of them offer like a two-week free promo period. So you can test them out and see if you like them and if they’re helpful before committing. There’s also free apps like Cal Topo. They take a little bit more tinkering and time to get used to, but if you’re someone who’s really into like… Maps and navigating, play around in those and you can even build routes and have them accessible offline while you’re actually camping.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And maybe walk me through, what was your experience of going dispersed camping? Like you roll up, what then?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of my favorite things about this first camping is that you have to have a first choice, a second choice, and a third choice, because you don’t know if people are going to be there. So my experience is you roll up and you’re shocked and excited that your first choice is available and hopefully as beautiful as you thought. But you always have to be prepared in the case that someone’s already there. And Ben gave me good advice, you know, if somebody’s in the spot you were hoping to get.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When there’s other room around you, the expectation is that, like, you should respect that somebody got that site before you and you should try to find somewhere else.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My experience in general has been that there’s more than enough space to go around. You can go down the dirt road a couple more miles and find an equally great spot.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ll say a lot of the dispersed camping I’ve done has been a little bit more, like, of the dirt bag variety, I would say. So the camp site that we were at wasn’t particularly beautiful, but it was more about proximity to something that was really cool. So we’ve crashed a couple times outside of Yosemite. There’s some forest service land that is not particularly notable, but it’s really about just having a place to sleep so you can wake up early and then get into Yosemite and have a great day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re going to pause for a quick break. More just ahead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some friends of mine went dispersed camping for their very first trip this past weekend. And I was asking them about what questions they were facing as they were sort of getting ready to, you know, embark on this new adventure. And one of their biggest concerns was about water. How do you camp without a clean water source or a spigot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You basically have two options. If the place you’re going, you know, has access to a stream or a river or a lake, you can pack a water filter and just make sure you’re also packing like some sort of receptacle to hold the water in. So I bring these big two, three liter bags. You can bring, you know, those sort of car camping jugs, but if you aren’t sure you are gonna have water, it’s always kind of better to be safe than sorry. Just bring enough. And make sure you have enough to cook. Enough to clean, enough to put out a fire if you create a fire. So just like have extra as insurance. Also if it’s hotter than you think it’s going to be all you have to do is be prepared. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what about fires? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">First thing first you must check if you’re allowed to build a campfire at the place you’re going and this might be seasonal. So check the website of the place you’re going call the ranger if you have questions. Just triple check whether or not you’re allowed to build a campfire, if you are. Typically, you’ll be required to make it in sort of a cleared out space with some rocks. There might even be dispersed sites like past people who have made, sort of, little campfire area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Anywhere you’re camping in California, you need to get a California campfire permit. Even if you’re not going to make a campfire, if you are going to cook using a stove, if you’re going to use fire for any reason at all while you’re out there, you need to have a valid campfire permit. It’s like a five minute video. You sign up, it’s free. It just to remind you of how to safely use fire out in the backcountry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And finally, we have to talk about it, but toilets. You won’t find any if you’re dispersed camping for the most part. What are guidelines people need to keep in mind for when nature calls?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, so there’s this handy tool called a trowel and you should always have one. It’s basically like a mini shovel for your poop. And most regulations here in California are to bury your poop six to eight inches deep in a hole. And you wanna be at least 200 feet away from any water sources. And it’s important that you dig deep enough, you go in the hole, you cover it up, and try to- do it like also away from where anyone might be camping or anything like that. I personally always pack out my toilet paper. I know some people bury their toilet paper here on the West Coast. The climate is so dry that that toilet paper is not going to be decomposing at a reasonable rate. I put a ziplock inside of a ziplock. And I put all of my toilet paper in there and pack it out with the rest of my trash and just double-check some wilderness areas here in California will even require that you use a wag bag. It sounds more fun than it is. It’s basically an insulated, like scented Ziploc bag that you had to poop in and that’s so that you don’t leave any of your waste behind at all. And that may sound crazy, but. If you’ve ever been to an area that requires a wag bag, you’ll immediately understand why. It’s like beautiful granite landscapes where there are no trees, there’s no soil. So there’s just really no chance of your poop being, you know, biodegradable in a reasonable amount of time. So that’s something that you have to make sure that you’re prepared to do. And that means like bringing enough trash bags where you feel comfortable in your vehicle, storing your poop trash. Somewhere away from your food, away from your clothes, away from everything else. So just be prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds so fun, but I mean, wag bags are great to have no matter what, even if you think you’re gonna be able to dig a hole because eight inches is pretty deep. You might not always have that much, I don’t know, digging interest in you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Digging interest and also like warning time, like, if you’re just like gotta go it’s nice to have a wag bag ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, so if people are interested, where might they get started with some of this this summer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so Ben actually had a really good suggestion. It’s to go to Jackson Demonstration State Forest that’s up in Mendocino County. It’s not technically dispersed camping, but it’s an area that’s managed by Cal Fire and the sites are super spread out. They’re first come first serve and there are no facilities very similar to dispersed camping except there are outhouses. So he suggested it as a great sort of intro trip if you’re interested in dispersed camping, you want to start bringing your own water, bringing your own, you know, emergency devices, et cetera, but you’re a little scared to get out there for real. That’s a great first spot to check out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The other suggestion I have is to pick the highway closest to you that goes up into the Sierras and find a spot at least a mile off of the highway in the National Forest there. So that’s likely to be like Tahoe National Forest or El Dorado or Stanislaus. And these types of spots are so beautiful. They’re almost Tahoe-like in their alpine wilderness, but without the crowds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We like to use the motor vehicle use map that the National Forest puts out that has a little bit more details about where all you can drive your car if you are in a National Forest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, that map is super helpful and all those apps I mentioned have that as an overlay so you can check your route that you’re building with sort of those access areas. And of course, make sure that your car can handle the roads that you are planning to go down. Many of these roads are probably dirt or gravel roads and aren’t super well maintained. So just double check before you’re going about whether it’s a paved road or not and whether or not your car could handle it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those are some great tips. Sarah, thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah Wright is the outdoors reporter for KQED. She has a full guide to dispersed camping on kqed.org with lots of links and resources for planning your first trip. We’ll put a link in our show notes. Every month we invite our audience to vote on some questions we’re considering answering on the show. Our June round just went up. Here are your options. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I have lived in the Richmond District for decades and heard that it is also known as Little Russia. How did that happen? There’s a large Russian cathedral and several Russian stores and delis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I walked through the Presidio and noticed many beautiful private-looking residences. Is the public allowed to live there? Is it still a Navy and Army property? Who maintains this lovely park?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Was there a steam railroad through Noe Valley and the Mission? Is there a way left to see it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cast your vote at BayCurious.org. It’s quick and easy. Bake Your Race is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, happy trails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Singing] Happy trails to you until we meet again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ooh, can we auto tune that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Stunning Archival Photos of the 1906 Earthquake and Fire",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This article first published April 18, 2024. We are republishing in honor of the 120th anniversary of the 1906 Earthquake and Fire.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, many San Franciscans awoke at 5:13 a.m. to feel the earth shaking. An estimated 7.9 earthquake rocked the San Andreas fault, causing the immediate collapse of many buildings in San Francisco’s downtown. That, in turn, began a fire that quickly spread throughout the city. It was a momentous day in the history of the Bay Area. Crucial records were lost in the blaze, and the event marked a dividing line in the historical record — pre- and post-quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every year, San Franciscans gather early in the morning at the corner of Kearny and Market streets to commemorate the event. People dress up in period costumes, trying to embody the historic moment. City leaders use the anniversary as an opportunity to remind citizens about earthquake preparedness and to celebrate first responders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell grew up in Berkeley and learned all the lore around the 1906 earthquake, so she was surprised to see something \u003cem>new\u003c/em> while perusing a catalog from the Legion of Honor Museum. Staring back at her from the page was a photo of a group of African Americans dressed in turn-of-the-century clothing, watching from atop a hill as San Francisco burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983185\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 465px\">\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983185\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of early San Francisco. A small group of African Americans turn to the camera as huge smoke plumes rise behind them.\" width=\"465\" height=\"649\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg 465w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped-160x223.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 465px) 100vw, 465px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A group of African American San Franciscans watch the fire advance from Clay Street in 1906. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">UC Berkeley Bancroft Library\u003c/a>/Photographer: Arnold Genthe )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake,” Allison said. “I know many people came over to the East Bay to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because you couldn’t probably, as a nonwhite person, go to the Claremont Hotel and say, ‘I’d like a suite,’ at that time. The discrimination was deep.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She knew that Black people had been settling in San Francisco since before the Gold Rush but had never before given much thought to how the discrimination common at the time might have affected the community’s ability to recover, access aid and rebuild after the 1906 quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they reestablished themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before the Quake\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983203\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133093?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=e7446cdca8edd82a35cf&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=46&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=9\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983203\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg\" alt=\"Sepia toned photo of a nearly flattened San Francisco from 1906.\" width=\"600\" height=\"454\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured-160x121.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">View looking down California Street after the earthquake and fire of 1906. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>By 1906, many Black San Franciscans had already begun moving to the East Bay in search of more space, fewer restrictions and less expensive housing. Those who stayed in San Francisco lived in neighborhoods all over the city. Like other groups that immigrated to California during the Gold Rush, early Black settlers here were mostly single men who tended to live in hotels downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while societal norms were a bit looser in the fledgling city, there was still plenty of racism, especially when it came to employment. The best, most skilled jobs were reserved for white people, while Black residents struggled to find the most menial work. Accounts from the time describe jobs like errand runners, elevator operators, valets and hotel workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983189\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217449?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=1#birds_eye_container\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983189\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two grand buildings collapsing.\" width=\"600\" height=\"482\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906-160x129.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Grand Hotel (left) and Palace Hotel on fire as carriages go by. Some of the better jobs Black San Franciscans could find at the turn of the 20th century were in hotels like these, where they could earn tips. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When the Trans-Pacific Railroad was built and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11910890/how-oaklands-16th-street-train-station-helped-build-west-oakland-and-the-modern-civil-rights-movement\">Southern Pacific Railroad opened a terminus in Oakland,\u003c/a> more jobs for Black people became available working on the trains and in the station. That was another reason many families chose to relocate to Oakland. A community had started to thrive in West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Life Immediately After\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The 1906 earthquake and fire were catastrophic for all San Franciscans. And, as often happens in a crisis, people pulled together in the aftermath to help one another and to rebuild the city. It’s estimated that 80% of San Francisco was destroyed in the fire, and 200,000 people — rich and poor alike — were made homeless overnight. People of all backgrounds waited in long lines for basic supplies and sustenance, which added to the equalizing effect immediately after the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133547?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6e0cba7e67868ea50c84&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=43&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of weary people waiting in line with empty containers.\" width=\"600\" height=\"448\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines-160x119.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After the 1906 earthquake, San Franciscans of all types had to wait in lines for basic necessities. \u003ccite>(San Francisco HIstory Center/The San Francisco Public LIbrary)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Artist-in-residence at the San Francisco Public Library, tanea lunsford lynx, discovered \u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A48483\">a trove of oral histories from African Americans at the turn of the 20th century\u003c/a> and a few photos depicting Black San Franciscans during the earthquake and fire. tanea is a fourth-generation San Franciscan, so their roots go deep here, but they’d never seen or heard anything like this before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been photo proof that I’d seen,” they said. “And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>tanea was inspired to create an exhibit that looks at how the oral history of one man, Aurelious Alberga, speaks to San Francisco’s present moment. Her poetry and interpretation are up on \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">a website she created called “We Were Here.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Below are excerpts of first-person accounts from Black San Franciscans who lived through the 1906 earthquake and fire. Their oral histories are archived at the San Francisco Public Library’s History Center in a collection entitled “\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/qqXrCJ6PLruKXKK8FVA8XA?domain=oac.cdlib.org\">Afro-Americans in San Francisco prior to World War II Oral history project records\u003c/a>.” The histories were recorded in 1978 by Dr. Albert Broussard, author of \u003cem>Black San Francisco: The Struggle for Racial Equality in the West, 1900–1954\u003c/em>. The work was co-sponsored by the \u003ca href=\"http://www.sfaahcs.org/\">San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983193\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983193\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young black man.\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1186\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-800x811.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-1020x1034.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-160x162.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young Aurelious Alberga (1884–1988)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Aurelious Alberga was born in San Francisco in 1884. He was a young man when the earthquake hit, renting a room in a hotel at the corner of Commercial and Kearny streets. His father rented a separate room on the floor above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“The Quake loosened one side of the building and it collapsed. Outside the building were big windows, which years ago had iron shutters that pulled in and closed over a little balcony. When the bricks fell down, they forced the shutters closed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see. So I made enough noise and yelled out for my father. And he came down the best way he could and pulled away the rocks from the hallways to make the door wide enough so I could come out.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217420?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d274b845e2f43463a2a6&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=10\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of nearly flattened buildings, with people walking by on the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"413\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down-160x110.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People walk down the street, stopping to look at buildings that have been nearly flattened in the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“In the meantime, the city had started on fire. The water mains had broken, and they had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983197\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A209339?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=168622d42efe2632415f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=4&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=19\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983197\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Dramatic black and white photo of a fierce fire burning behind the remains of a building.\" width=\"600\" height=\"435\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906-160x116.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Buildings burning on Market Street after the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was a little girl when the earthquake hit. Her family lived in a two-story flat on Jones Street at Broadway. She remembers that the week the quake hit was Easter vacation from school, so she and her mother and siblings had taken the ferry across the Bay to stay with her grandparents in Oakland for the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s… I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.” —Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>When the aftershocks subsided, Elizabeth’s father wanted to go back to San Francisco to check on their house, but authorities were not letting people on the ferries back to the city. He had to get special permission to return to the devastated city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought \u003ci>that\u003c/i> book.” — Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth’s family stayed with her grandparents for several months after the earthquake until her father bought a plot of land in the Mission and built them a new house. She remembers many people in the Black community relying on friends and family for help during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983198\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217433?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983198\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of of a woman cooking on a cast iron stove in the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"428\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street-160x114.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People cooked in the streets or in their backyards after the quake because chimneys had fallen down, and it wasn’t safe to cook inside. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Alfred Butler was a teenager living in Oakland when the quake struck. His father worked on the railroad and had more access to goods than most people in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“He brought a lot of food out from Chicago to feed these people, White people all around the neighborhood. And the people all knew the Butlers. We had to eat in the backyard; we built a stove out of bricks to cook the meals on, because they wouldn’t allow you to cook in the house. The Earthquake had knocked all the chimneys down, so we had to eat in the backyard, fry and cook as best we could. People were thankful for that food too.” — Alfred Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983199\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A132890?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=f31fecf33ee6f0edcd0d&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=5&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983199\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg\" alt=\"Rows of white tent set up in Golden Gate Park to house refugees from the 1906 earthquake.\" width=\"600\" height=\"345\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Refugee camps like this one in Golden Gate Park were set up in parks throughout San Francisco to house the nearly 200,000 people who had become homeless overnight. The military managed the camps. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Butler visited San Francisco right after the earthquake and described it as mostly rubble. All the tall buildings had fallen down. But he said people were already cleaning up, and within a year, they’d started to rebuild. Many Black San Franciscans moved to the Western Addition after the earthquake, including his brother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983201\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A134029?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d11fd6bd47c32fd8a6e1&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=8&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983201\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two men shoveling debris in front of burned out buildings.\" width=\"600\" height=\"486\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding-160x130.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is said that the bricks weren’t even cool before San Franciscans started rebuilding their city. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My brother, right after the earthquake, he rented a place on Post near Fillmore. He got a place. He was just lucky. After the Earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. Businesses moved down Fillmore Street. All the business on Fillmore Street started booming. That’s where all the life was.” — Albert Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>By 1915, just nine years after the devastating quake, San Francisco had largely been rebuilt. City leaders hosted the Panama-Pacific International Exposition to show the world it had recovered. While many people left San Francisco immediately after the quake, not too long after the 1915 World’s Fair, World War I began. A wave of new migrants came to the Bay Area then and again during World War II. The Black community in the Bay Area continued to grow in the East Bay, especially as ferry service to San Francisco improved so people could easily commute to the city for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB0eK5KO8k8\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every year on April 18th… at 5:13 in the morning…. San Franciscans gather at the corner of Market and Kearny Streets to remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Once again, you crazy folks have come together at this ungodly hour to remember and honor the memories of those hearty San Franciscans who survived being tossed from their beds 117 years ago this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>People come dressed up in period costumes…trying to inhabit the moment in 1906 when an earthquake with an estimated magnitude of 7.9 brought devastation to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Wednesday, April 18th, 1906 5:12 a.m. A great foreshock is felt throughout the San Francisco Bay area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>San Franciscans startled awake …only to see their city burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Fires rage and spread throughout the city. They are not stopped until 74 hours later. Many of San Francisco’s finest buildings collapse under the firestorms. Firefighters begin dynamiting buildings to create firebreaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But the fire kept leaping over the lines, traveling further west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>The Great Fire reaches Van Ness Avenue, which is 125ft wide, facing the decision to blow his city to pieces or watch it burn, Mayor Schmitz finally agrees to let the army create a massive firebreak in the hopes that it can stop the raging inferno. Friday, April 20th, 1906 5 a.m. The fire break at Venice finally holds and the westward progression of the inferno was halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It took more than three days to fully put the fire out. And then San Franciscans took stock. Nearly 80-percent of the city had burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>So if we can just have a moment of silence for those who died and those who helped with the city after the earthquake. (Silence) Let’s hear those sirens go. Here we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> The Great Earthquake and fire of 1906 were devastating to everyone living in San Francisco at the time, including its several thousand Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell started wondering about how this community fared after the earthquake when she saw an old photo in a museum booklet. It showed a group of Black San Franciscans standing at the top of Clay Street, watching the fire burn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>And I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake. I know many people came over to the East Bay, and they simply got into boats and got over here, to try to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because, you couldn’t just probably as a nonwhite person go to the Claremont Hotel and say, I’d like a suite. At that time, the discrimination was deep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they re-established themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: Stories and photos of the devastation wrought by the 1906 earthquake and fire are easy to find around San Francisco. But it’s less common to see or hear explicit references to how the Black community fared after the quake. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today on Bay Curious – just a few days shy of the 120th anniversary of the earthquake and fire – we’ll hear some first person accounts from those who survived it. This story first aired on our show in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of elevators at the library\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> You can find all kinds of cool stuff at the public library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I was thinking like, where do where does the ephemera live? Where do the things live that we can’t touch? What are the less visited things of the library?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>tanea lunsford lynx was recently an artist in residence at the San Francisco Public Library,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And then I found that there was an oral history project that had over 25, recorded oral histories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>She was \u003ci>transfixed\u003c/i> by the voices of Black Americans describing life in San Francisco at the turn of the 20th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: yea, we were here.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Now, tanea and I are standing in front of a display case on the third floor of the main branch …busy library life bustling around us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I wanted folks to kind of happen upon it outside of the elevator. So when folks kind of get out there, struck by the photos that many of us have never seen. Of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>Yeah. Some people have seen some of the photos, like of the fire and stuff like that. What’s different about these ones?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>These photos are different because they’re featuring black American folks who were here in San Francisco at the time of the 1906 earthquake. So you not only see the plume of the fires, the smoke in the back of the photos, but you also see, black San Franciscans at the forefront of the photos who are, like, dressed very beautifully.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>My name is tanea lunsford lynx. I’m a writer and artist and educator. And fourth generation, like San Franciscan on both sides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, these photos were a revelation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been like photo proof that I’d seen a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>As part of her residency at the library she began digging into the archives kept here and stumbled across an oral history recorded in 1978… of a man named Aurelius Alberga. A black man and a survivor of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I felt a kinship pretty quickly. Because something about. Alberga’s tone reminded me of my grandfather’s voice and something about the quality of the audio is…Very appropriate for the time that it was recorded. And so you can, like hear the hum of the machine. You can hear like background noises, like I was I was automatically seated in someone’s house, like listening to them tell their stories. And it was that kinship, that closeness, that sense of intimacy that I was looking for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>October 22, 1884.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>Where were you born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>San Francisco\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>What about you parents. Where were they born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>My father was born in Kingston, Jamaica. May mother was born in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>He was very chill, for lack of a better word, about surviving that earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Historian Dr. Albert Broussard recorded this oral history when Alberga was in his 90s. On the day of the Great Earthquake, Alberga was in his early 20s, sleeping in a room he rented at the corner of Commercial and Kearny Streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>Aurelius Alberga is asleep in his apartment, which most likely was an SRO, single room occupancy. And he lived there, and his father lived in the apartment above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> My father was living there too. He had a room right upstairs directly over me. The Quake loosened and one side of the building collapsed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> He, like, yells for his father to know where he is, and his father comes down and helps him get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After escaping his small room, Alberga and his father go their separate ways. Alberga is worried about the man he works for who is blind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> Alberga’s job at that time is being a chauffeur for a man he calls old Metzger, who’s a man that he works for, who’s, like, wealthy, who’s a blind man. And, he develops this relationship with kind of like, caring for him in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He lived on O’Farrell Street between Stockton and Powell. The whole front side of the hotel had fallen out into the streets and left exposed the rooms on that end. He was right there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> And so Alberga is like, oh my gosh, I hope he’s okay. And he gets up to Metzger’s apartment. And this man is sleeping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He slept through it all, which was a blessing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After heroically saving Metzger’s life, he takes the old man to his mother’s house. Old Metzger is worried about savings he’s got stored in a safe downtown so he sends Alberga to retrieve the money. That errand takes Alberga all over the town and he watches as the city is destroyed. He recalls how the water mains were broken and firefighters struggled to contain the blaze.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> They had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> It blew my mind that he could recall with precision the exact intersections of where things happened in San Francisco, particularly as a man of, like, more than 90 years old. Because I’m also aware of, like, yes, this was a trauma that he survived. And he was able to recall with such clarity where these things happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Alberga had lost everything in the earthquake and fire, his home, all his possessions. He bounced around the city, staying with friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> One of the things he did say was that folks across like, race and ethnicity were really welcoming to each other as far as, like, inviting folks to literally stay in their homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> I don’t think there were any people as friendly as the ole San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> No one as friendly as ‘ole San Franciscans. People were dragging their trunks down the road, nowhere to sleep…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> People were dragging their trunks along the street and someone would come along and help them. They’d take someone in their house they had never seen before in your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Folks opened up their homes to people they’d never seen before in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So that mutual aid and that care was something that Alberga named as something that was distinctly San Franciscan at the time, that it was a very friendly place at that time, particularly after this moment of crisis. And so that really stood out to me, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: We’re going to pause for a quick break, but when we return … more stories from 1906. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: When the 1906 earthquake and fire hit San Francisco, thousands of children were affected. Forming Vivid memories that would stay with them for most of their lives. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was just a little girl of nine-years-old when the earthquake struck. Her family lived in a flat in downtown San Francisco. But by 1906 many Black San Franciscans had relocated to the East Bay in search of more space and less expensive housing. Her grandmother lived in Oakland and Elizabeth had gone to stay with her for the Easter holidays, just before the quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And my mother came over later in the week and brought the rest of the children. My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s. I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth remembers all the chimneys in Oakland falling down during the earthquake. As morning dawned, chaos reigned and authorities would not let Elizabeth’s father return to San Francisco on the ferry. He had to get special permission to go check on their house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought that book.” (chuckles).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Her father returned to Oakland where his family was — and their home on Jones street was consumed by the fire. Elizabeth says the family was lucky to be able to stay with her grandparents in Oakland until her father purchased a plot of land in the Mission to build them a new house. She says many Black San Franciscans tapped into networks of friends and family in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>The people from San Francisco came over here when their houses burned down and they took care of them over here. Red Cross, and they set up temporary housing and what have you for the people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Tent cities sprang up in parks around San Francisco…housing 200-thousand people who had become homeless overnight. People set up outdoor kitchens and cooked together. Tanea lunsford lynx documented Black San Franciscans among these scenes in her exhibit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>The first photo that we see is a photo of two young black people, children who are sitting in the grass and you see tents and you see a clothing line up behind them, and you see a little stove for cooking as well. And this is a campsite that was set up in Golden Gate Park, because folks had lost everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>A PBS documentary called The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake paints a desolate picture of life in the aftermath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>Standing in bread lines, meat lines, soup lines, any kind of a line became the central activity of life. Everyone had to do it. Soldiers made sure nobody cheated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And anybody not standing in line, was put to work rebuilding the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>It was said that in many places, the debris was not even allowed to cool, and bricks were pitched from lots when still as warm as muffins. Volunteers on the cleanup crews took up the refrain in the damnedest, finest ruins I’d rather be a brick than live anywhere else but San Francisco. The great cleanup had begun. Thousands of standing walls were torn down. An estimated 6.5 billion bricks were carted away or cleaned of mortar to be reused in new buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>People who lived through these times remember it as a swift recovery. Alfred Butler was a Black teenager living in Oakland at the time of the earthquake. He took a mule and cart all the way down to San Jose and around the Bay in order to see what had happened to San Francisco for himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He recalls seeing a lot of rubble, and the biggest buildings knocked down. But over the following months the recovery progressed quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>They built it up right away. In a year’s time, things were pretty well cleaned up. And then they started to build.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>At the turn of the 20th century, Black San Franciscans lived in neighborhoods scattered throughout San Francisco, but many single men were concentrated in hotels downtown…like Aurelius Alberga who we heard from earlier. Alfred Butler says after the earthquake, the Western Addition became the hub of Black life. That’s where his brother moved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>After the earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. All the businesses on Fillmore Street started booming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>San Franciscans came together after the quake and people from all walks of life helped one another in that moment of crises. But the oral histories of these Black Americans who survived it show that as the city rebuilt, it went back to the de facto racism that ruled it. Butler says good jobs were still reserved for white people, while Black people struggled to find menial ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Albert Butler: \u003c/b>It was hard to get a job. Negroes, we had a tough time getting a job. A menial job like washing windows or running errands or something like that. Running an elevator or something like that. It was hard to get a job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music transition\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, the photos of San Franciscans living in tents, cooking outdoors, waiting in line for basic necessities are eerily similar to scenes on the streets of the city today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>When looking at these photos, I began to see the past, speaking to the future and the future, speaking to the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And as a Black person, tanea sees echoes of \u003ci>her San Francisco\u003c/i> in the oral histories she combed through. A small Black community fighting to stay in a changing city. The devastation of displacement and loss. But also the love of this place and the tenacity to survive. It’s all too familiar. Her poem “We Were Here” is an ode to the Black community in San Francisco, which stretches from the Gold Rush to now. Here’s an excerpt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> We were here already, living fantastical lives, already saving the best for the present, already studying the contours of the city. The bay knew us. This ocean was salted with our knowing already. We knew the feeling of firm ground. Before the shaking. We knew stability. The ground knew the planting and rising of our feet like a dance. We were already sending for each other, extending a fishing hook south and pulling each other up with calloused hands. We were already spinning tales about this mass of fog. We were already making home here. \u003ci>(fades under)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That story was brought to us by Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> But of course, we were here, living in our signature ways. Of course, when the earth shifted, we went looking for who could be lost in the cracks. Of course it made for lore. Of course we were doing the fantastical feat like a dance. The earth cracked open and we kept time, an offering of our survival. We kept on living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades out\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> tanea’s exhibit is no longer on display at the library, but you can see all the photos she used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">read her writing on the project’s website\u003c/a>. You can find a link in our show notes or on baycurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the San Francisco History Center, part of the San Francisco Public Library for letting us use the oral histories in their archive. And to the San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society who co-sponsored the original oral history project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our show is made by:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Christopher Beale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Katherine Monahan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Jen Chien: \u003c/b>Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Springer: \u003c/b>Katie Springer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad: \u003c/b>Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethan Toven-Lindsey:\u003c/b> Ethan Toven-Lindsey\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This article first published April 18, 2024. We are republishing in honor of the 120th anniversary of the 1906 Earthquake and Fire.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, many San Franciscans awoke at 5:13 a.m. to feel the earth shaking. An estimated 7.9 earthquake rocked the San Andreas fault, causing the immediate collapse of many buildings in San Francisco’s downtown. That, in turn, began a fire that quickly spread throughout the city. It was a momentous day in the history of the Bay Area. Crucial records were lost in the blaze, and the event marked a dividing line in the historical record — pre- and post-quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every year, San Franciscans gather early in the morning at the corner of Kearny and Market streets to commemorate the event. People dress up in period costumes, trying to embody the historic moment. City leaders use the anniversary as an opportunity to remind citizens about earthquake preparedness and to celebrate first responders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell grew up in Berkeley and learned all the lore around the 1906 earthquake, so she was surprised to see something \u003cem>new\u003c/em> while perusing a catalog from the Legion of Honor Museum. Staring back at her from the page was a photo of a group of African Americans dressed in turn-of-the-century clothing, watching from atop a hill as San Francisco burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983185\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 465px\">\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983185\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of early San Francisco. A small group of African Americans turn to the camera as huge smoke plumes rise behind them.\" width=\"465\" height=\"649\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg 465w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped-160x223.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 465px) 100vw, 465px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A group of African American San Franciscans watch the fire advance from Clay Street in 1906. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">UC Berkeley Bancroft Library\u003c/a>/Photographer: Arnold Genthe )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake,” Allison said. “I know many people came over to the East Bay to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because you couldn’t probably, as a nonwhite person, go to the Claremont Hotel and say, ‘I’d like a suite,’ at that time. The discrimination was deep.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She knew that Black people had been settling in San Francisco since before the Gold Rush but had never before given much thought to how the discrimination common at the time might have affected the community’s ability to recover, access aid and rebuild after the 1906 quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they reestablished themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before the Quake\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983203\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133093?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=e7446cdca8edd82a35cf&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=46&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=9\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983203\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg\" alt=\"Sepia toned photo of a nearly flattened San Francisco from 1906.\" width=\"600\" height=\"454\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured-160x121.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">View looking down California Street after the earthquake and fire of 1906. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>By 1906, many Black San Franciscans had already begun moving to the East Bay in search of more space, fewer restrictions and less expensive housing. Those who stayed in San Francisco lived in neighborhoods all over the city. Like other groups that immigrated to California during the Gold Rush, early Black settlers here were mostly single men who tended to live in hotels downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while societal norms were a bit looser in the fledgling city, there was still plenty of racism, especially when it came to employment. The best, most skilled jobs were reserved for white people, while Black residents struggled to find the most menial work. Accounts from the time describe jobs like errand runners, elevator operators, valets and hotel workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983189\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217449?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=1#birds_eye_container\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983189\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two grand buildings collapsing.\" width=\"600\" height=\"482\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906-160x129.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Grand Hotel (left) and Palace Hotel on fire as carriages go by. Some of the better jobs Black San Franciscans could find at the turn of the 20th century were in hotels like these, where they could earn tips. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When the Trans-Pacific Railroad was built and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11910890/how-oaklands-16th-street-train-station-helped-build-west-oakland-and-the-modern-civil-rights-movement\">Southern Pacific Railroad opened a terminus in Oakland,\u003c/a> more jobs for Black people became available working on the trains and in the station. That was another reason many families chose to relocate to Oakland. A community had started to thrive in West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Life Immediately After\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The 1906 earthquake and fire were catastrophic for all San Franciscans. And, as often happens in a crisis, people pulled together in the aftermath to help one another and to rebuild the city. It’s estimated that 80% of San Francisco was destroyed in the fire, and 200,000 people — rich and poor alike — were made homeless overnight. People of all backgrounds waited in long lines for basic supplies and sustenance, which added to the equalizing effect immediately after the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133547?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6e0cba7e67868ea50c84&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=43&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of weary people waiting in line with empty containers.\" width=\"600\" height=\"448\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines-160x119.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After the 1906 earthquake, San Franciscans of all types had to wait in lines for basic necessities. \u003ccite>(San Francisco HIstory Center/The San Francisco Public LIbrary)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Artist-in-residence at the San Francisco Public Library, tanea lunsford lynx, discovered \u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A48483\">a trove of oral histories from African Americans at the turn of the 20th century\u003c/a> and a few photos depicting Black San Franciscans during the earthquake and fire. tanea is a fourth-generation San Franciscan, so their roots go deep here, but they’d never seen or heard anything like this before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been photo proof that I’d seen,” they said. “And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>tanea was inspired to create an exhibit that looks at how the oral history of one man, Aurelious Alberga, speaks to San Francisco’s present moment. Her poetry and interpretation are up on \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">a website she created called “We Were Here.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Below are excerpts of first-person accounts from Black San Franciscans who lived through the 1906 earthquake and fire. Their oral histories are archived at the San Francisco Public Library’s History Center in a collection entitled “\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/qqXrCJ6PLruKXKK8FVA8XA?domain=oac.cdlib.org\">Afro-Americans in San Francisco prior to World War II Oral history project records\u003c/a>.” The histories were recorded in 1978 by Dr. Albert Broussard, author of \u003cem>Black San Francisco: The Struggle for Racial Equality in the West, 1900–1954\u003c/em>. The work was co-sponsored by the \u003ca href=\"http://www.sfaahcs.org/\">San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983193\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983193\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young black man.\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1186\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-800x811.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-1020x1034.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-160x162.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young Aurelious Alberga (1884–1988)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Aurelious Alberga was born in San Francisco in 1884. He was a young man when the earthquake hit, renting a room in a hotel at the corner of Commercial and Kearny streets. His father rented a separate room on the floor above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“The Quake loosened one side of the building and it collapsed. Outside the building were big windows, which years ago had iron shutters that pulled in and closed over a little balcony. When the bricks fell down, they forced the shutters closed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see. So I made enough noise and yelled out for my father. And he came down the best way he could and pulled away the rocks from the hallways to make the door wide enough so I could come out.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217420?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d274b845e2f43463a2a6&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=10\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of nearly flattened buildings, with people walking by on the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"413\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down-160x110.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People walk down the street, stopping to look at buildings that have been nearly flattened in the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“In the meantime, the city had started on fire. The water mains had broken, and they had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983197\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A209339?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=168622d42efe2632415f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=4&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=19\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983197\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Dramatic black and white photo of a fierce fire burning behind the remains of a building.\" width=\"600\" height=\"435\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906-160x116.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Buildings burning on Market Street after the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was a little girl when the earthquake hit. Her family lived in a two-story flat on Jones Street at Broadway. She remembers that the week the quake hit was Easter vacation from school, so she and her mother and siblings had taken the ferry across the Bay to stay with her grandparents in Oakland for the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s… I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.” —Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>When the aftershocks subsided, Elizabeth’s father wanted to go back to San Francisco to check on their house, but authorities were not letting people on the ferries back to the city. He had to get special permission to return to the devastated city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought \u003ci>that\u003c/i> book.” — Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth’s family stayed with her grandparents for several months after the earthquake until her father bought a plot of land in the Mission and built them a new house. She remembers many people in the Black community relying on friends and family for help during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983198\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217433?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983198\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of of a woman cooking on a cast iron stove in the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"428\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street-160x114.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People cooked in the streets or in their backyards after the quake because chimneys had fallen down, and it wasn’t safe to cook inside. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Alfred Butler was a teenager living in Oakland when the quake struck. His father worked on the railroad and had more access to goods than most people in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“He brought a lot of food out from Chicago to feed these people, White people all around the neighborhood. And the people all knew the Butlers. We had to eat in the backyard; we built a stove out of bricks to cook the meals on, because they wouldn’t allow you to cook in the house. The Earthquake had knocked all the chimneys down, so we had to eat in the backyard, fry and cook as best we could. People were thankful for that food too.” — Alfred Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983199\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A132890?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=f31fecf33ee6f0edcd0d&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=5&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983199\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg\" alt=\"Rows of white tent set up in Golden Gate Park to house refugees from the 1906 earthquake.\" width=\"600\" height=\"345\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Refugee camps like this one in Golden Gate Park were set up in parks throughout San Francisco to house the nearly 200,000 people who had become homeless overnight. The military managed the camps. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Butler visited San Francisco right after the earthquake and described it as mostly rubble. All the tall buildings had fallen down. But he said people were already cleaning up, and within a year, they’d started to rebuild. Many Black San Franciscans moved to the Western Addition after the earthquake, including his brother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983201\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A134029?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d11fd6bd47c32fd8a6e1&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=8&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983201\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two men shoveling debris in front of burned out buildings.\" width=\"600\" height=\"486\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding-160x130.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is said that the bricks weren’t even cool before San Franciscans started rebuilding their city. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My brother, right after the earthquake, he rented a place on Post near Fillmore. He got a place. He was just lucky. After the Earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. Businesses moved down Fillmore Street. All the business on Fillmore Street started booming. That’s where all the life was.” — Albert Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>By 1915, just nine years after the devastating quake, San Francisco had largely been rebuilt. City leaders hosted the Panama-Pacific International Exposition to show the world it had recovered. While many people left San Francisco immediately after the quake, not too long after the 1915 World’s Fair, World War I began. A wave of new migrants came to the Bay Area then and again during World War II. The Black community in the Bay Area continued to grow in the East Bay, especially as ferry service to San Francisco improved so people could easily commute to the city for work.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/aB0eK5KO8k8'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/aB0eK5KO8k8'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every year on April 18th… at 5:13 in the morning…. San Franciscans gather at the corner of Market and Kearny Streets to remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Once again, you crazy folks have come together at this ungodly hour to remember and honor the memories of those hearty San Franciscans who survived being tossed from their beds 117 years ago this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>People come dressed up in period costumes…trying to inhabit the moment in 1906 when an earthquake with an estimated magnitude of 7.9 brought devastation to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Wednesday, April 18th, 1906 5:12 a.m. A great foreshock is felt throughout the San Francisco Bay area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>San Franciscans startled awake …only to see their city burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Fires rage and spread throughout the city. They are not stopped until 74 hours later. Many of San Francisco’s finest buildings collapse under the firestorms. Firefighters begin dynamiting buildings to create firebreaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But the fire kept leaping over the lines, traveling further west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>The Great Fire reaches Van Ness Avenue, which is 125ft wide, facing the decision to blow his city to pieces or watch it burn, Mayor Schmitz finally agrees to let the army create a massive firebreak in the hopes that it can stop the raging inferno. Friday, April 20th, 1906 5 a.m. The fire break at Venice finally holds and the westward progression of the inferno was halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It took more than three days to fully put the fire out. And then San Franciscans took stock. Nearly 80-percent of the city had burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>So if we can just have a moment of silence for those who died and those who helped with the city after the earthquake. (Silence) Let’s hear those sirens go. Here we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> The Great Earthquake and fire of 1906 were devastating to everyone living in San Francisco at the time, including its several thousand Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell started wondering about how this community fared after the earthquake when she saw an old photo in a museum booklet. It showed a group of Black San Franciscans standing at the top of Clay Street, watching the fire burn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>And I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake. I know many people came over to the East Bay, and they simply got into boats and got over here, to try to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because, you couldn’t just probably as a nonwhite person go to the Claremont Hotel and say, I’d like a suite. At that time, the discrimination was deep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they re-established themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: Stories and photos of the devastation wrought by the 1906 earthquake and fire are easy to find around San Francisco. But it’s less common to see or hear explicit references to how the Black community fared after the quake. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today on Bay Curious – just a few days shy of the 120th anniversary of the earthquake and fire – we’ll hear some first person accounts from those who survived it. This story first aired on our show in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of elevators at the library\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> You can find all kinds of cool stuff at the public library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I was thinking like, where do where does the ephemera live? Where do the things live that we can’t touch? What are the less visited things of the library?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>tanea lunsford lynx was recently an artist in residence at the San Francisco Public Library,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And then I found that there was an oral history project that had over 25, recorded oral histories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>She was \u003ci>transfixed\u003c/i> by the voices of Black Americans describing life in San Francisco at the turn of the 20th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: yea, we were here.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Now, tanea and I are standing in front of a display case on the third floor of the main branch …busy library life bustling around us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I wanted folks to kind of happen upon it outside of the elevator. So when folks kind of get out there, struck by the photos that many of us have never seen. Of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>Yeah. Some people have seen some of the photos, like of the fire and stuff like that. What’s different about these ones?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>These photos are different because they’re featuring black American folks who were here in San Francisco at the time of the 1906 earthquake. So you not only see the plume of the fires, the smoke in the back of the photos, but you also see, black San Franciscans at the forefront of the photos who are, like, dressed very beautifully.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>My name is tanea lunsford lynx. I’m a writer and artist and educator. And fourth generation, like San Franciscan on both sides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, these photos were a revelation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been like photo proof that I’d seen a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>As part of her residency at the library she began digging into the archives kept here and stumbled across an oral history recorded in 1978… of a man named Aurelius Alberga. A black man and a survivor of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I felt a kinship pretty quickly. Because something about. Alberga’s tone reminded me of my grandfather’s voice and something about the quality of the audio is…Very appropriate for the time that it was recorded. And so you can, like hear the hum of the machine. You can hear like background noises, like I was I was automatically seated in someone’s house, like listening to them tell their stories. And it was that kinship, that closeness, that sense of intimacy that I was looking for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>October 22, 1884.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>Where were you born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>San Francisco\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>What about you parents. Where were they born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>My father was born in Kingston, Jamaica. May mother was born in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>He was very chill, for lack of a better word, about surviving that earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Historian Dr. Albert Broussard recorded this oral history when Alberga was in his 90s. On the day of the Great Earthquake, Alberga was in his early 20s, sleeping in a room he rented at the corner of Commercial and Kearny Streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>Aurelius Alberga is asleep in his apartment, which most likely was an SRO, single room occupancy. And he lived there, and his father lived in the apartment above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> My father was living there too. He had a room right upstairs directly over me. The Quake loosened and one side of the building collapsed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> He, like, yells for his father to know where he is, and his father comes down and helps him get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After escaping his small room, Alberga and his father go their separate ways. Alberga is worried about the man he works for who is blind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> Alberga’s job at that time is being a chauffeur for a man he calls old Metzger, who’s a man that he works for, who’s, like, wealthy, who’s a blind man. And, he develops this relationship with kind of like, caring for him in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He lived on O’Farrell Street between Stockton and Powell. The whole front side of the hotel had fallen out into the streets and left exposed the rooms on that end. He was right there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> And so Alberga is like, oh my gosh, I hope he’s okay. And he gets up to Metzger’s apartment. And this man is sleeping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He slept through it all, which was a blessing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After heroically saving Metzger’s life, he takes the old man to his mother’s house. Old Metzger is worried about savings he’s got stored in a safe downtown so he sends Alberga to retrieve the money. That errand takes Alberga all over the town and he watches as the city is destroyed. He recalls how the water mains were broken and firefighters struggled to contain the blaze.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> They had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> It blew my mind that he could recall with precision the exact intersections of where things happened in San Francisco, particularly as a man of, like, more than 90 years old. Because I’m also aware of, like, yes, this was a trauma that he survived. And he was able to recall with such clarity where these things happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Alberga had lost everything in the earthquake and fire, his home, all his possessions. He bounced around the city, staying with friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> One of the things he did say was that folks across like, race and ethnicity were really welcoming to each other as far as, like, inviting folks to literally stay in their homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> I don’t think there were any people as friendly as the ole San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> No one as friendly as ‘ole San Franciscans. People were dragging their trunks down the road, nowhere to sleep…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> People were dragging their trunks along the street and someone would come along and help them. They’d take someone in their house they had never seen before in your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Folks opened up their homes to people they’d never seen before in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So that mutual aid and that care was something that Alberga named as something that was distinctly San Franciscan at the time, that it was a very friendly place at that time, particularly after this moment of crisis. And so that really stood out to me, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: We’re going to pause for a quick break, but when we return … more stories from 1906. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: When the 1906 earthquake and fire hit San Francisco, thousands of children were affected. Forming Vivid memories that would stay with them for most of their lives. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was just a little girl of nine-years-old when the earthquake struck. Her family lived in a flat in downtown San Francisco. But by 1906 many Black San Franciscans had relocated to the East Bay in search of more space and less expensive housing. Her grandmother lived in Oakland and Elizabeth had gone to stay with her for the Easter holidays, just before the quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And my mother came over later in the week and brought the rest of the children. My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s. I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth remembers all the chimneys in Oakland falling down during the earthquake. As morning dawned, chaos reigned and authorities would not let Elizabeth’s father return to San Francisco on the ferry. He had to get special permission to go check on their house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought that book.” (chuckles).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Her father returned to Oakland where his family was — and their home on Jones street was consumed by the fire. Elizabeth says the family was lucky to be able to stay with her grandparents in Oakland until her father purchased a plot of land in the Mission to build them a new house. She says many Black San Franciscans tapped into networks of friends and family in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>The people from San Francisco came over here when their houses burned down and they took care of them over here. Red Cross, and they set up temporary housing and what have you for the people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Tent cities sprang up in parks around San Francisco…housing 200-thousand people who had become homeless overnight. People set up outdoor kitchens and cooked together. Tanea lunsford lynx documented Black San Franciscans among these scenes in her exhibit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>The first photo that we see is a photo of two young black people, children who are sitting in the grass and you see tents and you see a clothing line up behind them, and you see a little stove for cooking as well. And this is a campsite that was set up in Golden Gate Park, because folks had lost everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>A PBS documentary called The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake paints a desolate picture of life in the aftermath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>Standing in bread lines, meat lines, soup lines, any kind of a line became the central activity of life. Everyone had to do it. Soldiers made sure nobody cheated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And anybody not standing in line, was put to work rebuilding the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>It was said that in many places, the debris was not even allowed to cool, and bricks were pitched from lots when still as warm as muffins. Volunteers on the cleanup crews took up the refrain in the damnedest, finest ruins I’d rather be a brick than live anywhere else but San Francisco. The great cleanup had begun. Thousands of standing walls were torn down. An estimated 6.5 billion bricks were carted away or cleaned of mortar to be reused in new buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>People who lived through these times remember it as a swift recovery. Alfred Butler was a Black teenager living in Oakland at the time of the earthquake. He took a mule and cart all the way down to San Jose and around the Bay in order to see what had happened to San Francisco for himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He recalls seeing a lot of rubble, and the biggest buildings knocked down. But over the following months the recovery progressed quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>They built it up right away. In a year’s time, things were pretty well cleaned up. And then they started to build.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>At the turn of the 20th century, Black San Franciscans lived in neighborhoods scattered throughout San Francisco, but many single men were concentrated in hotels downtown…like Aurelius Alberga who we heard from earlier. Alfred Butler says after the earthquake, the Western Addition became the hub of Black life. That’s where his brother moved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>After the earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. All the businesses on Fillmore Street started booming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>San Franciscans came together after the quake and people from all walks of life helped one another in that moment of crises. But the oral histories of these Black Americans who survived it show that as the city rebuilt, it went back to the de facto racism that ruled it. Butler says good jobs were still reserved for white people, while Black people struggled to find menial ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Albert Butler: \u003c/b>It was hard to get a job. Negroes, we had a tough time getting a job. A menial job like washing windows or running errands or something like that. Running an elevator or something like that. It was hard to get a job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music transition\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, the photos of San Franciscans living in tents, cooking outdoors, waiting in line for basic necessities are eerily similar to scenes on the streets of the city today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>When looking at these photos, I began to see the past, speaking to the future and the future, speaking to the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And as a Black person, tanea sees echoes of \u003ci>her San Francisco\u003c/i> in the oral histories she combed through. A small Black community fighting to stay in a changing city. The devastation of displacement and loss. But also the love of this place and the tenacity to survive. It’s all too familiar. Her poem “We Were Here” is an ode to the Black community in San Francisco, which stretches from the Gold Rush to now. Here’s an excerpt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> We were here already, living fantastical lives, already saving the best for the present, already studying the contours of the city. The bay knew us. This ocean was salted with our knowing already. We knew the feeling of firm ground. Before the shaking. We knew stability. The ground knew the planting and rising of our feet like a dance. We were already sending for each other, extending a fishing hook south and pulling each other up with calloused hands. We were already spinning tales about this mass of fog. We were already making home here. \u003ci>(fades under)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That story was brought to us by Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> But of course, we were here, living in our signature ways. Of course, when the earth shifted, we went looking for who could be lost in the cracks. Of course it made for lore. Of course we were doing the fantastical feat like a dance. The earth cracked open and we kept time, an offering of our survival. We kept on living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades out\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> tanea’s exhibit is no longer on display at the library, but you can see all the photos she used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">read her writing on the project’s website\u003c/a>. You can find a link in our show notes or on baycurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the San Francisco History Center, part of the San Francisco Public Library for letting us use the oral histories in their archive. And to the San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society who co-sponsored the original oral history project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our show is made by:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Christopher Beale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Katherine Monahan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Jen Chien: \u003c/b>Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Springer: \u003c/b>Katie Springer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad: \u003c/b>Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethan Toven-Lindsey:\u003c/b> Ethan Toven-Lindsey\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "from-anza-to-yorba-the-messy-history-behind-the-richmond-and-sunsets-street-names",
"title": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond's and Sunset’s Street Names",
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"headTitle": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond’s and Sunset’s Street Names | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\"> View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have gotten a lot of questions about street names in the western part of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> — the Richmond and Sunset neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do the streets appear to follow an alphabetical pattern, only to break it often? Where do the names come from in the first place? Who chose them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answers are both more complicated (of course) and less logical than you might imagine. It all goes back — like so many things in San Francisco history — to the time right after the 1906 earthquake and fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, the primary means of communication was the mail. But delivering the mail to the correct recipient was a challenge because there were many repetitive street names or ones that were easy to confuse in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, there were four Church streets — basically, anytime someone built a church, they’d name the street adjacent “Church Street”. And three sections of the city were named with numerical values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were numbered avenues out in the Richmond and Sunset, numerical streets downtown, and back then, the Bayview also went by numerical avenues, with “South” appended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079487\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1602px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079487\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1602\" height=\"1180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg 1602w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1602px) 100vw, 1602px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archival image of the Richmond District at Balboa and 32nd Avenue \u003ccite>(via Open SF History)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>ZIP codes had not been invented yet, so you can imagine the mess a mail carrier faced when trying to deliver a letter to 203 Church St. or 452 Fourth Ave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The post office was unhappy,” said John Freeman, an amateur historian and member of the Western Neighborhood Association. He wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/street-names.php\">several articles\u003c/a> about the history behind San Francisco street names. “We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets. So, it’s the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown since the 1850s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1909, city leaders appointed a commission to come up with new names for the numbered avenues in both the western neighborhoods and the Bayview.[aside postID=news_12074947 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00252_TV-KQED.jpg']In the Richmond and Sunset, the committee decided to honor the city’s Spanish heritage by naming streets after famous Spanish explorers or anyone who had an outsized influence in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They planned for the names to go alphabetically from First Avenue (what’s now Arguello) out to 26th Avenue. Then the alphabet would start over, but the following 26 streets would be named for saints. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when the proposal was put forward, outraged locals pushed back against the naming scheme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The country had just fought the Spanish-American War in the Philippines, and some residents found the idea of naming streets after Spaniards unpatriotic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suddenly it starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was so much opposition that the committee gave up the scheme. They settled on renaming “First Avenue” to “Arguello” and the street just before the beach “La Playa,” which means “the beach” in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079485\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1124\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1536x863.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Richmond District and Ocean Beach in San Francisco, CA \u003ccite>(Jason Doiy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They left the numbered avenues, but used the alphabetical Spanish explorer idea for streets running east and west, instead. For some reason, residents didn’t oppose this slightly different approach. That’s how we got names like Anza, Balboa, and Cabrillo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, nothing is simple. Even though they had generally settled on an alphabetical scheme that would extend out into the Sunset, there were already problems. First, the committee didn’t want to change the names of streets that extended out from downtown — like Geary, California and Sacramento streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why the alphabet starts mid-Richmond and goes south from there. “D Street” had already been renamed Fulton because it extended from downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Streets that would have been “E, F, and G” were taken up by Golden Gate Park, which had been developed but was still nascent. Once on the other side of the park, the pattern should have started up again with H street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You gotta realize this is 1909, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln,” Freeman said. “So they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079492\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1755px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079492 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1755\" height=\"1277\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg 1755w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-1536x1118.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1755px) 100vw, 1755px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of San Francisco, circa 1909 \u003ccite>(Courtesy Carolyn Karis)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>H street was a prominent boulevard edging Golden Gate Park, so they decided, “We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, the Sunset residents had convened their own committee to come up with more “patriotic” names for Sunset streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Irving Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving\">Washington Irving\u003c/a>, a writer. Judah Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">Theodore Judah\u003c/a>, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was the clever engineer, and nobody honored him for anything,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">Kirkham\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">Lawton \u003c/a>were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/a>, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079540\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079540\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"987\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-1536x766.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Washington Irving, circa. 1860-1865. \u003ccite>(Photo by Heritage Art/Heritage Images/via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/parkside-district.php\"> big development company \u003c/a>was already using the Spanish explorer naming convention, so the neighbors gave up fighting to change those names.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not many people lived that far out into the Sunset yet, anyway. Apart from the “Americanized” interlude from Lincoln to Kirkham, the pattern of Spanish explorers continued, with the exception of “X” and “Z.” X was going to be Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the committee ended up skipping an X-named street altogether when people claimed no one would be able to pronounce Xavier. Z street became Sloat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Logic kind of falls to the side,” Freeman said of the whole naming fiasco. “But it’s a good story because what they were trying to do didn’t work real well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"episode-transcript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you travel from north to south on the west side of San Francisco – through the Richmond District, across Golden Gate Park, all the way through the Sunset – you may notice the streets running east to west follow a naming convention.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza. Balboa. Cabrillo. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A … B… C… And further south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quintara. Rivera. Santiago. Taraval.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Q … R… S… T… They’re alphabetized! A to Z! Well, almost…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no D and no E. There is a Fulton but then there’s no G or H. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Carolyn Karras. (Care-as)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I live in Ingleside Terraces in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s a librarian and she’s into San Francisco history. So when a friend asked her about why a few of the letters are missing, she was frustrated when the answer didn’t turn up in some of the usual places she thought to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>It just seems like the order should be complete once you start it, it should end up being complete. So what happened to those street names since it seemed to go from A to at least Y.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here with some answers for Carolyn is Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Olivia. I gotta say, I’m excited to answer this question because it’s my home turf. I grew up in the Richmond District and went to school in the Sunset and I’ve wondered about this naming situation too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, start at the beginning, when did San Francisco start naming it’s streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Always street names, but not always a lot of logic to the names. There were a lot of duplicates, which was confusing to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me some examples of the kind of things that were confusing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so there were 4 Church streets at one point. Any time there was a church, the locals would call the alley behind in Church Lane or Church way… you get the idea. But most confusing of all, there were three sets of ordinal numbered streets. Like today, there were the numbered Avenues out west, and the numbered streets downtown, but there were also numbered streets in the Bayview, those just had “South” appended to them. So, Bayview had 9th avenue South, for example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It reminds me a lot of modern-day Washington D.C. If you get the cardinal direction wrong on the street name, you can wind up in the completely wrong place….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, this was a time when people primarily communicated by post. The mail came several times a day…and postal codes had not been invented yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So confusing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then 1906 earthquake happens. Things are in shambles. But it’s also an opportunity to make some changes. I spoke to John Freeman about all this. He’s a retired high school teacher, amateur historian and life-long Richmond District resident. He says one group in particular was not happy with the street name situation in SF.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the post office was unhappy. We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets, there’s new widening of streets and all that kind of stuff. So the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown like over, you know, since the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, so in 1909 they put together a committee of folks to look at this naming issue. It’s got a couple Board of Supervisors on it, a historian and someone from the post office. Pretty small group. And they’ve got this idea to rename the Richmond District avenues to honor San Francisco’s history…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This of course, was a time when the whole thing of Spanish, that time period of the development of California was very romanticized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so like Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All explorers with some degree of connection to SF. And The idea, was to actually name all the ordinal streets using this scheme. So, First Avenue would become Arguello, second Balboa, third Cabrillo, etc. They’d do that all the way out to 26th and then they’d start over alphabetically, but add San or Santa. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s strange because the actual Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo streets run east west. And the avenues are still numbered even today. What happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John says the committee started sharing their ideas with the press and when residents of the Richmond and Sunset districts heard about it, they were pissed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s harsh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, xenophobia was alive and well back then too. But also, you have to remember in 1909 the Spanish-American war had just ended 10 years before. Of course, that was actually fought in the Philippines. And as a west coast port, San Francisco had a big role in that war. People here would have known folks fighting…it felt like recent history to many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens with the whole naming conundrum then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, the committee backs off and says fine, we won’t change the names of the Avenues. To save face, they kept Arguello, which is basically First Avenue now. And they kept La Playa, the last name before the beach, which also means “beach” in Spanish. And then they used the Spanish name scheme going east west instead. Of course, they had to come up with a new A street because Arguello was already taken, so that’s how we got Anza.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza of course, he is definitely here. He explores the whole coast. He actually goes out and, you know, the only way he’s going to get through it, he went along to the actual ocean beach and then he comes inland and he did see as much as he possibly could. So he’s a legitimate early explorer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, as Carolyn points out, they didn’t really follow the pattern going east west either. Why not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically local politics. So, it had been agreed that any streets that extended out west from Downtown would not be changed. So, streets like California and Sacramento stayed the same. Geary Boulevard was sacrosanct. So this naming starts south of Geary. We get A, B, C and then what would have been D is actually “Fulton street.” That’s because it was a street extending from downtown, so they didn’t want to change it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since they had an F, they just kept going, except G was basically Golden Gate Park, which had been established in 1870, but was still nascent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to H street, which should have run next to the park on the south side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s supposed to go all the way out to Sloat in alphabetical pattern. Well, h then this is eight nine, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, so they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln. What a wonderful thing we’ll do away with those four little alleys down south of market that were named after Lincoln. And we’ll name this Grand Boulevard that is going to go alongside Golden Gate Park. We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK…but Irving, Judah, Kirkum, Lawton…also not Spanish names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Correct. This is where more local politics came into play. There was a very active group of residents in the inner Sunset who DID NOT want Spanish names. They wanted “American” names. So they lobbied hard for Irving…after washington Irving the writer. Judah…for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theodore Judah\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was the clever engineer and nobody honored him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirkham\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawton \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Development. The Parkside [Realty Company] owned a lot of land in the outer Sunset and they were developing plots to sell. They’d already started naming the streets in their section according to the proposed Spanish explorer scheme. So we basically have Spanish names all the way out to Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s no X or Z street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yep, more racism. X was supposed to Xavier Street, but the committee didn’t think anyone could pronounce it, so they just skipped it. And many of those other names aren’t actually Spanish explorers anyway. Taravel was a Native American guide who was part of the Anza expedition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have alphabetical-ish, Spanish-ish street names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Totally. And, they were trying to work fast because they had to have it all done by the end of 1909 when the mayoral administration changed. So, maps after 1910 show the new names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Carolyn actually mentioned an old map she’d found… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">W\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">e have a couple of older maps that we were looking at and one of them is 1909 map that we picked up somewhere and that has the letters. So it says like ABC above the park and then below the park, it just has the letter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So presumably this was printed between the time when the plan for the alphabetical streets was made, and when the final names hadn’t been chosen yet. So, this is actually a very cool little piece of history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, a little time capsule window into the past. Thanks for all your reporting on this, Katrina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Carolyn Karras for asking this week’s question. You selected it in one of our monthly voting rounds and hey – our April voting round is now up and has some good questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How many Bay food businesses are still in business after 10 years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the SF Parks and Recreation still manage properties outside of the city limits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the history of Bay Area communal living and what makes things a communal living situation vs cult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which of those do you want to hear on the show? Cast your vote at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And while you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter where we answer even more listener questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from … and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Streets on San Francisco’s west side appear to follow an alphabetical naming convention with Spanish names. But look closer, and there are some missing letters. Why?",
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"title": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond's and Sunset’s Street Names | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\"> View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have gotten a lot of questions about street names in the western part of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> — the Richmond and Sunset neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do the streets appear to follow an alphabetical pattern, only to break it often? Where do the names come from in the first place? Who chose them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answers are both more complicated (of course) and less logical than you might imagine. It all goes back — like so many things in San Francisco history — to the time right after the 1906 earthquake and fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, the primary means of communication was the mail. But delivering the mail to the correct recipient was a challenge because there were many repetitive street names or ones that were easy to confuse in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, there were four Church streets — basically, anytime someone built a church, they’d name the street adjacent “Church Street”. And three sections of the city were named with numerical values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were numbered avenues out in the Richmond and Sunset, numerical streets downtown, and back then, the Bayview also went by numerical avenues, with “South” appended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079487\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1602px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079487\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1602\" height=\"1180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg 1602w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1602px) 100vw, 1602px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archival image of the Richmond District at Balboa and 32nd Avenue \u003ccite>(via Open SF History)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>ZIP codes had not been invented yet, so you can imagine the mess a mail carrier faced when trying to deliver a letter to 203 Church St. or 452 Fourth Ave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The post office was unhappy,” said John Freeman, an amateur historian and member of the Western Neighborhood Association. He wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/street-names.php\">several articles\u003c/a> about the history behind San Francisco street names. “We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets. So, it’s the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown since the 1850s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1909, city leaders appointed a commission to come up with new names for the numbered avenues in both the western neighborhoods and the Bayview.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>In the Richmond and Sunset, the committee decided to honor the city’s Spanish heritage by naming streets after famous Spanish explorers or anyone who had an outsized influence in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They planned for the names to go alphabetically from First Avenue (what’s now Arguello) out to 26th Avenue. Then the alphabet would start over, but the following 26 streets would be named for saints. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when the proposal was put forward, outraged locals pushed back against the naming scheme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The country had just fought the Spanish-American War in the Philippines, and some residents found the idea of naming streets after Spaniards unpatriotic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suddenly it starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was so much opposition that the committee gave up the scheme. They settled on renaming “First Avenue” to “Arguello” and the street just before the beach “La Playa,” which means “the beach” in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079485\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1124\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1536x863.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Richmond District and Ocean Beach in San Francisco, CA \u003ccite>(Jason Doiy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They left the numbered avenues, but used the alphabetical Spanish explorer idea for streets running east and west, instead. For some reason, residents didn’t oppose this slightly different approach. That’s how we got names like Anza, Balboa, and Cabrillo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, nothing is simple. Even though they had generally settled on an alphabetical scheme that would extend out into the Sunset, there were already problems. First, the committee didn’t want to change the names of streets that extended out from downtown — like Geary, California and Sacramento streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why the alphabet starts mid-Richmond and goes south from there. “D Street” had already been renamed Fulton because it extended from downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Streets that would have been “E, F, and G” were taken up by Golden Gate Park, which had been developed but was still nascent. Once on the other side of the park, the pattern should have started up again with H street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You gotta realize this is 1909, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln,” Freeman said. “So they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079492\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1755px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079492 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1755\" height=\"1277\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg 1755w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-1536x1118.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1755px) 100vw, 1755px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of San Francisco, circa 1909 \u003ccite>(Courtesy Carolyn Karis)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>H street was a prominent boulevard edging Golden Gate Park, so they decided, “We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, the Sunset residents had convened their own committee to come up with more “patriotic” names for Sunset streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Irving Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving\">Washington Irving\u003c/a>, a writer. Judah Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">Theodore Judah\u003c/a>, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was the clever engineer, and nobody honored him for anything,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">Kirkham\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">Lawton \u003c/a>were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/a>, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079540\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079540\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"987\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-1536x766.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Washington Irving, circa. 1860-1865. \u003ccite>(Photo by Heritage Art/Heritage Images/via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/parkside-district.php\"> big development company \u003c/a>was already using the Spanish explorer naming convention, so the neighbors gave up fighting to change those names.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not many people lived that far out into the Sunset yet, anyway. Apart from the “Americanized” interlude from Lincoln to Kirkham, the pattern of Spanish explorers continued, with the exception of “X” and “Z.” X was going to be Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the committee ended up skipping an X-named street altogether when people claimed no one would be able to pronounce Xavier. Z street became Sloat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Logic kind of falls to the side,” Freeman said of the whole naming fiasco. “But it’s a good story because what they were trying to do didn’t work real well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"episode-transcript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you travel from north to south on the west side of San Francisco – through the Richmond District, across Golden Gate Park, all the way through the Sunset – you may notice the streets running east to west follow a naming convention.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza. Balboa. Cabrillo. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A … B… C… And further south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quintara. Rivera. Santiago. Taraval.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Q … R… S… T… They’re alphabetized! A to Z! Well, almost…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no D and no E. There is a Fulton but then there’s no G or H. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Carolyn Karras. (Care-as)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I live in Ingleside Terraces in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s a librarian and she’s into San Francisco history. So when a friend asked her about why a few of the letters are missing, she was frustrated when the answer didn’t turn up in some of the usual places she thought to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>It just seems like the order should be complete once you start it, it should end up being complete. So what happened to those street names since it seemed to go from A to at least Y.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here with some answers for Carolyn is Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Olivia. I gotta say, I’m excited to answer this question because it’s my home turf. I grew up in the Richmond District and went to school in the Sunset and I’ve wondered about this naming situation too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, start at the beginning, when did San Francisco start naming it’s streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Always street names, but not always a lot of logic to the names. There were a lot of duplicates, which was confusing to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me some examples of the kind of things that were confusing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so there were 4 Church streets at one point. Any time there was a church, the locals would call the alley behind in Church Lane or Church way… you get the idea. But most confusing of all, there were three sets of ordinal numbered streets. Like today, there were the numbered Avenues out west, and the numbered streets downtown, but there were also numbered streets in the Bayview, those just had “South” appended to them. So, Bayview had 9th avenue South, for example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It reminds me a lot of modern-day Washington D.C. If you get the cardinal direction wrong on the street name, you can wind up in the completely wrong place….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, this was a time when people primarily communicated by post. The mail came several times a day…and postal codes had not been invented yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So confusing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then 1906 earthquake happens. Things are in shambles. But it’s also an opportunity to make some changes. I spoke to John Freeman about all this. He’s a retired high school teacher, amateur historian and life-long Richmond District resident. He says one group in particular was not happy with the street name situation in SF.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the post office was unhappy. We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets, there’s new widening of streets and all that kind of stuff. So the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown like over, you know, since the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, so in 1909 they put together a committee of folks to look at this naming issue. It’s got a couple Board of Supervisors on it, a historian and someone from the post office. Pretty small group. And they’ve got this idea to rename the Richmond District avenues to honor San Francisco’s history…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This of course, was a time when the whole thing of Spanish, that time period of the development of California was very romanticized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so like Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All explorers with some degree of connection to SF. And The idea, was to actually name all the ordinal streets using this scheme. So, First Avenue would become Arguello, second Balboa, third Cabrillo, etc. They’d do that all the way out to 26th and then they’d start over alphabetically, but add San or Santa. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s strange because the actual Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo streets run east west. And the avenues are still numbered even today. What happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John says the committee started sharing their ideas with the press and when residents of the Richmond and Sunset districts heard about it, they were pissed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s harsh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, xenophobia was alive and well back then too. But also, you have to remember in 1909 the Spanish-American war had just ended 10 years before. Of course, that was actually fought in the Philippines. And as a west coast port, San Francisco had a big role in that war. People here would have known folks fighting…it felt like recent history to many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens with the whole naming conundrum then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, the committee backs off and says fine, we won’t change the names of the Avenues. To save face, they kept Arguello, which is basically First Avenue now. And they kept La Playa, the last name before the beach, which also means “beach” in Spanish. And then they used the Spanish name scheme going east west instead. Of course, they had to come up with a new A street because Arguello was already taken, so that’s how we got Anza.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza of course, he is definitely here. He explores the whole coast. He actually goes out and, you know, the only way he’s going to get through it, he went along to the actual ocean beach and then he comes inland and he did see as much as he possibly could. So he’s a legitimate early explorer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, as Carolyn points out, they didn’t really follow the pattern going east west either. Why not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically local politics. So, it had been agreed that any streets that extended out west from Downtown would not be changed. So, streets like California and Sacramento stayed the same. Geary Boulevard was sacrosanct. So this naming starts south of Geary. We get A, B, C and then what would have been D is actually “Fulton street.” That’s because it was a street extending from downtown, so they didn’t want to change it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since they had an F, they just kept going, except G was basically Golden Gate Park, which had been established in 1870, but was still nascent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to H street, which should have run next to the park on the south side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s supposed to go all the way out to Sloat in alphabetical pattern. Well, h then this is eight nine, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, so they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln. What a wonderful thing we’ll do away with those four little alleys down south of market that were named after Lincoln. And we’ll name this Grand Boulevard that is going to go alongside Golden Gate Park. We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK…but Irving, Judah, Kirkum, Lawton…also not Spanish names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Correct. This is where more local politics came into play. There was a very active group of residents in the inner Sunset who DID NOT want Spanish names. They wanted “American” names. So they lobbied hard for Irving…after washington Irving the writer. Judah…for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theodore Judah\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was the clever engineer and nobody honored him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirkham\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawton \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Development. The Parkside [Realty Company] owned a lot of land in the outer Sunset and they were developing plots to sell. They’d already started naming the streets in their section according to the proposed Spanish explorer scheme. So we basically have Spanish names all the way out to Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s no X or Z street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yep, more racism. X was supposed to Xavier Street, but the committee didn’t think anyone could pronounce it, so they just skipped it. And many of those other names aren’t actually Spanish explorers anyway. Taravel was a Native American guide who was part of the Anza expedition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have alphabetical-ish, Spanish-ish street names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Totally. And, they were trying to work fast because they had to have it all done by the end of 1909 when the mayoral administration changed. So, maps after 1910 show the new names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Carolyn actually mentioned an old map she’d found… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">W\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">e have a couple of older maps that we were looking at and one of them is 1909 map that we picked up somewhere and that has the letters. So it says like ABC above the park and then below the park, it just has the letter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So presumably this was printed between the time when the plan for the alphabetical streets was made, and when the final names hadn’t been chosen yet. So, this is actually a very cool little piece of history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, a little time capsule window into the past. Thanks for all your reporting on this, Katrina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Carolyn Karras for asking this week’s question. You selected it in one of our monthly voting rounds and hey – our April voting round is now up and has some good questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How many Bay food businesses are still in business after 10 years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the SF Parks and Recreation still manage properties outside of the city limits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the history of Bay Area communal living and what makes things a communal living situation vs cult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which of those do you want to hear on the show? Cast your vote at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And while you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter where we answer even more listener questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from … and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "cambrian-park-plaza-a-beloved-san-jose-strip-mall-awaits-a-new-future",
"title": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future",
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"headTitle": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.[aside postID=news_12078615 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260320-KOGURACOMPANY00242_TV-KQED.jpg'] But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I moved to San Francisco in the summer of 2013 with a giant patch the size of a maxi pad covering my left eye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just a week before my move, I had eye surgery to repair a partially detached retina, a condition that could have left me blind. The first month or so after surgery was tough. Anytime my pulse got a little elevated, I would feel it pounding in my eye. And so my first month in San Francisco was profoundly dark and lonely. I spent most of it lying in bed, listening to audiobooks in a darkened room. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As healing progressed, though, I started to venture outside. First on short walks to the coffee shop, but soon on little runs through Golden Gate Park. I started off on the main thoroughfares. I’d pass by the Conservatory of Flowers, loop around Blue Heron Lake, stop to admire the bison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As my body recovered, my runs grew longer. And it was the sense of discovery in the park that propelled me to add a mile or two here or there on my run each day. Follow an uncertain path into the woods only to find a new garden I’d never seen. My run stretched out first to six miles, then eight miles, 10 miles, and finally 13.1 miles when I kicked my way across the finish line of my very first half marathon which, fittingly, finished in Golden Gate Park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The park revived me, gave me a space to rebuild myself after feeling pretty broken. And that’s why I’m excited to share today’s episode where we dig in on how it was created more than 150 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But first, let me introduce our special guest. Marta Lindsay has combed over every dell, every stone, every pathway to write a new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Discovering Golden Gate Park, a Local’s Guide\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. And she’s here to share some hot tips about the park today. Welcome, Marta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so much for having me. This is a delight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m so glad you could join us. What is it that captured your imagination about Golden Gate Park enough to spend all the time that I know it takes to write a book about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, end of the day, I just really love Golden Gate Park, but I got into it in part because of having a fussy baby. If she was having one of those days where she’s super fussy, like you just have to get outside, right? And for us outside basically was Golden Gate park in the inner sunset area. And I think as I started to spend so much more time in the park, I just saw there was so much more to it than first meets the eye.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1625030704&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Your book has so much information about the different spaces within the park, but today you’ve brought a few things to talk about that even the most devout park lovers might not know. Let’s start with some of those unique stones found in the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The monastery stones. Yes. Once you know about these, then you’re always looking for them and it’s really fun because they are scattered all around the park. Go back in medieval times everyone, and we’re in Spain…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Around the year 1,200 at a monastery overlooking the Tagus River.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And there is this incredibly beautiful series of buildings, kind of castle-like. And they were all made by hand by these monks who hand-carved all these limestones, thousands and thousands of stones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The monastery built of these beautiful stones flourished for hundreds of years until the 1830s, but was shut down by royal decree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And over the years, it was not used, and it was kind of falling apart. And enter William Randolph Hearst. He was, like, kind of the ultimate rich guy of the era. He owned the San Francisco Examiner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, of course, Hearst Castle, the sprawling estate down in San Simeon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He had someone who had scoped out this old monastery in Spain and was like, I think we should take the whole thing apart! Ship it to America and build another amazing castle, but in Northern California this time. 11 ships had to transport the stones of these multiple ancient buildings all the way to San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Depression takes enough wind out of the sails of Hearst’s fortune that this is an impossible thing. And so he ends up selling the stones to the city of San Francisco in 1941. So these stones are just sitting in this warehouse in San Francisco and they’re all marked by the way, when they took them apart, it was like, we got to be able to reassemble them. So they were marked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">essentially packed in wooden crates with instructions on the outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then there’s this idea to build a medieval art museum in Golden Gate Park using the stones. The stones are moved to Golden Gate Park, and then right away there’s a fire. And then there’s some more fires, which burned the markings off. This made it, at the time, impossible to reassemble. Then you’ve just got all these monastery stones sitting in Golden Gate park and what’s gonna happen to them. And eventually they just start using them for gardening. There’s a ton of them in the botanical gardens used in a variety of ways. And then also sometimes you’ll just find one here or there along a path. Some of them are really ornately carved and have like. You know, rounded edges and lots of, like, designs in them. If you go right into the main gate at the botanical garden, immediately to your left, they’ve built this whole wall and structure using them, and so you get to see kind of a variety of the design.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11915008 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Conservatory-of-flowers.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And also how neat to be able to touch these stones and think about the journey they took to get there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Them every day and have no idea that they’re walking by this medieval treasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of folks are probably familiar with the Beach Chalet, the restaurant at the very end of the park that borders on Ocean Beach. They have a lovely view of the Pacific, if you can get a spot in the dining room, which is tricky on the weekends, some solid food, but it can also get pretty crowded on a sunny day. I have heard that you have a tip about somewhere else to try just a short walk away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s the golf clubhouse. I do not golf, but when I went there for researching the book, I was like, oh my gosh, this is a little hidden secret. They redid it a couple years ago and the patio is beautiful. And because of the way they redid the golf course, you can now see through the trees to the ocean, which I think is one of the very few places in the park that you’re actually like having ocean-ness in the background. And they have got this little clubhouse and they’re like serving up. Bill’s burger dog, trademark, which is one of three places you can get a Bill’s Burger Dog, which is basically a hamburger shaped like the size, like a hot dog bun size, but even better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Did they put it in a hot dog bun?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>I\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t’s on a hot dog bun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Then i\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t’s a burger?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>I\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t is a burger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you put burger toppings on it or hot dog toppings on?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I think you could go either way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During the height of the COVID-19 shutdowns, the park really became, I think, a sanctuary for a lot of people, maybe including yourself. It was a way to get out of your house. It was way to interact with other people in a way that was, you know, a bit safer. Do something with your body. In this book, you mentioned that some people really started to make the park their own during that time. Can you tell us about some of those folks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would say quietly during the pandemic, some parts of the park really were transformed in these really magical ways and a lot of people don’t know about them. One of them is if you’re walking along JFK Promenade and you get almost to the whale sculpture that’s in the middle of JFK promenade, on your right side would be 14th Avenue Meadow, which is where they have the beer garden in the summer with the free live music. And then right past that is, you’ll see like a lot of succulents and stuff. And this woman, Marta, happens to share my name.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During the pandemic. She’s like, ‘I was, you know, it was two weeks in, I was depressed, I had a house cleaning business and I couldn’t do that anymore.’ And she’s like I just started going to the park and then there was a rec and park gardener and I told them I was a hard worker and I needed something to do. And so she started tending that area and it’s totally transformed it. And again, like. You’ve got to get off the main path and then you’ll be on these little magical trails and it’s so pretty back there. And she has said, if you see her there, and she’s always wearing this large brimmed hat, like she has extra gloves, and you can go help her anytime.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The little paths that she’s created are especially cool because it looks like there’s just bushes lining the sidewalk there, but if you follow the woodchip paths that she has created back sort of beyond the bushes, there’s a whole little world back there that you can’t see from the main road. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11915065 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/GettyImages-1322040719-scaled-e1653522839658.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One name that people have probably heard a lot related to Golden Gate Park is John McLaren. He was an early park superintendent who served for more than 50 years, and he did a lot to make the park the special place it is today. His fingerprints are really all over it. He comes up a lot in your book. Can you tell us what it is about him that captured your imagination.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So John McLaren oversaw the park starting in 1890. And William Hammond Hall created the canvas, but then John McLaren was the artist and he really ran with it. And at that time he took over half of the park still had nothing had happened to it yet. Half of the Park, the dunes had been reclaimed and things were starting to be planted, but that was still a whole half of park to deal with, and John McLaren oversaw it all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">His vision for the park was just right on, with wanting it to really feel like an escape into nature. And he had to fight a lot of fights during those years to try to hold to that. But he also was this master gardener with this just eye for design that was. Really special for the time too because the parks that existed at that time were mostly European parks but nature doesn’t run in a straight line was one of his quotes. His favorite thing was the dells. He loved to have flowers growing within a grove of trees somewhere so it’s like you stumble on to this little magical scene right and because he was on the job for so long he was really able to realize that. I just think of how much of what we think of as the look and feel of the park it’s John McLaren.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can find much more about John McLaren in Marta’s book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Discovering Golden Gate Park, A Local’s Guide\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Find it wherever books are sold. Marta Lindsay, thank you so much for talking with us today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When we return, The Making of Golden Gate park. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Next up, producer Katrina Schwartz and I are exploring the early history of how Golden Gate Park was built.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There are a lot of stories about how this park came to be. One tale goes that only a magical combination of horse manure and spit was enough to tame the sandy soil and make it rich enough for plants to grow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I’m no gardener, but even to me, that sounds a little far-fetched. To find some definitive answers, we headed over to the northeast corner of the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So this little path says Oak Woodland Path. should we go up there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, let’s check it out. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The trees we walked through were here before anything else in the park. It’s one of the few areas that remains relatively unchanged.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is an old-growth forest. These would be descendants of the trees that were cut down for firewood during the gold rush. It predated the park, it predated European colonization here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re here with Nicole Meldahl, the executive director of the Western Neighborhoods Project, a community history nonprofit focused on the west side of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s just behind the conservatory flowers, kind of hidden.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We decided to start here because it was this corner of the park where trees grew naturally that gave park creators the confidence they could make the rest of the Park green.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As beautiful as the Oak Grove is, we are still surrounded by the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Trucks that back up are the worst. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We kept going deeper and deeper into the park, hoping to find a quiet spot for our interview.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sorry, we’re off-roading a little. I thought it was a path, but then it became not a path.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Nicole says what we now know as Golden Gate Park, a lush place with winding pathways, protected dells and lots of recreation, wasn’t even part of the city at first.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What did this place look like at the beginning of the gold rush?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An 1853 map of this area, called it the Great Sand Bank. So yeah, it was very empty, isolated. There were a few scattered beach cottages for some adventurous folks. There were homesteaders out here.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s population skyrocketed during the years after the gold rush, and city leaders had big ambitions. But first, they needed more space. In the Outside Lands Act of 1866, the western half of the city became part of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has always thought of itself as like a great, amazing city, right? And it is, we definitely know it is. But really it was the new kid in town. So at some point they decided they needed a park that was befitting of the amazing city that they hoped to build this into.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As luck would have it, the landscape architect Frederick Law Olmsted, famous for designing Central Park in New York, was traveling in California. City leaders asked for his opinion about building the new park in the newly acquired Outside Lands.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And he was like, oh no, no, you can never build a park here. Trees won’t grow in these sand dunes, so I recommend the other side of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">City leaders did not like that recommendation, so instead of following Olmsted’s advice, they found someone else who promised he could transform the dunes into forest. A young surveyor from Stockton named William Hammond Hall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So how did Hammond Hall turn the Great Sandy Bank into this park that we know and love?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, there’s a legend about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some with less veritable facts…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Legend goes Hammond Hall is out with his team surveying the land after the city designated it for the park in 1870.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’ve got their horses with them\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and one of the horse’s feed buckets that hangs around their nose drops, and the barley that’s in their feed spills out into the sand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And then, of course, you need a little fertilizer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, manure from the same horse that the barley fell out of the feed bag from landed directly on top of this little patch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When Hammond hog comes back through that area in a week or so, the quick growing barley from the horse’s bucket has already taken root and is growing. And William Hammond Hall goes…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is going to be the secret recipe for how we tame these dunes, because if you combine the quick growing barley with native lupine here, that will sort of stabilize the dunes long enough to allow for these trees that he wanted to put through the park as wind breaks to grow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s all a little convenient, isn’t it? Nicole thinks elements of this story are true, but the mythical telling leaves out some context. First, historians have recently discovered that there was a farm on the eastern edge of the park that grew barley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, Hammond Hall probably already knew barley could grow here. And second, the process of reclaiming sand by starting with small, quick-growing grasses to build up topsoil before planting trees on top of them was already a well-established practice in Europe. As for the horse manure part of the legend, that is where we get to street sweepers. And no, I’m not talking about the kind that get you a parking ticket.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was common practice for the city to use horse manure they collected in the streets because this is still an era where people used horses on a daily basis so it was a sort of thrifty way to fertilize city parks and areas around town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that’s how acres and acres of sand dunes were transformed into forest. No spit, but there was definitely manure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We were just about to ask Nicole about the park’s many hills and dells, when who should come strolling by but the guy who literally wrote a book on Golden Gate Park’s history? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chris Pollock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my god! Hi! We’re from Be Curious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The park’s historian in the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi! Lovely to meet you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What a coincidence!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a happy meeting because in addition to the land reclamation technique Nicole has been describing, Hammond Hall did something else pretty ingenious when he was superintendent of the park. Chris Pollack calls it respecting the genius of the place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what the genius of the place means is utilizing what you’ve got to work with to the best ability you can.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Basically respect that the landscape looks the way it does for a reason.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What that meant was a very efficient way of using the sand dunes as the existing topography, for the most part, to create this undulating, kind of interesting landscape, because to have it just flat would have been rather boring and counterintuitive to the idea of sustainable environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They knew that the wind coming off the ocean was their worst enemy. If they leveled the park, the wind would continue to push sand eastward and kill new plantings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the area behind the sand dune, it wouldn’t be so windy there, and it might be more hospitable to plant something there as opposed to on the windy side of the sand dunes. So there was a lot of selection being done.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The hidden dells, small hills, and winding paths in the park are the result of using the genius of the place in the design.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Hammond Hall started greening the eastern end of the park, slowly moving westward. But he simultaneously took on the far west end near the beach. Stopping the sand dunes from encroaching was critical to the success of the project. Here’s Nicole again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like okay we’re gonna build a fence and we’re going to put the planks really close together and the dunes will come up and it will hit against that fence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As the sand piled up it made a windbreak \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And on the other side of the fence you know where the dunes aren’t we’re start planning all these things and it’ll start growing up and the Dunes will up to the top of the fence and then we’ll build the fence higher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today, at the far western end of the park, you can still see Hammond Hall’s idea at work. Large trees and bushes protect the intersections of the Park from the sand that comes whipping across the Great Highway, and little sand dunes sometimes pile up at the park’s edges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Within five years, San Franciscans were delighted by their new park. An 1875 article in the San Francisco Examiner said,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Calling to mind the inhospitable desolate aspect of the region a few years since, we cannot but regard with favor the result.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hammond Hall had the sand mostly under control, but something else had become unruly. The politics of the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In general, there was a lot of graft in the city at the time, and William Hammond Hall didn’t like it. So he tried to control what he could with his powers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Superintendent of the park. He fired a blacksmith for padding his contract. A blacksmith who, unfortunately for Hammond Hall, ended up becoming a state legislator. He sought his revenge by blocking funding for the park and accused Hammond hall of misusing park resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The allegations were completely false. However, William Hammond Hall had enough. In 1876, he resigns and the entire Park Commission resigns because they’re so disgusted by what they’re seeing as politics getting in the way of a beautiful city park that the city wanted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The years that followed were bad ones for Golden Gate Park. Hammond Hall’s plans were neglected.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of this sort of falls to the wayside because there’s no money and more people who come to power on the Commission aren’t there for the right reason.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many men with railroad interests were appointed to the Park Commission and lo and behold a railroad gets built to the park — and is barely taxed. And more buildings are popping up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All these things start to materialize that aren’t the wilderness that was initially envisioned here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Though some of the park’s most beloved attractions did come from this time period.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You have the Conservatory of Flowers, which was a bunch of very wealthy men who purchased it from another wealthy man, James Lick, who had passed away and gifted it to the city that put it here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Without a fierce defender of the initial vision for the park, tensions arose over what the park should be. A wild green space where people could connect with nature, or a cultural center to showcase the growing wealth and power of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1890, the Park Commission promoted a man named John McLaren from assistant superintendent up to superintendent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">John McLaren, I think he’s one of the most universally beloved city employees of all time. They built him a giant house. McLaren Lodge was built in 1896 specifically for him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many people think John McLaren was the first superintendent of the park. He wasn’t, but he did continue to build it up in line with the vision Hammond Hall set forward.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He just did it without making so many enemies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is the most famous story you’re ever gonna hear when it comes to John McLaren, is he hated statues in the park, hated them. So he would let them put it wherever it was. They’ve always made a big deal. And then John McLarin would very quietly plant things around the monuments that would grow up over time and totally obscure them so you couldn’t see them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can still find statues nearly hidden by bushes around the music concourse today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">McLaren worked in the park for more than 50 years, overseeing its transformation into the urban gem it is today. Millions of people visit the park each year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">William Hammond Hall, on the other hand, often gets forgotten. But the two men had a lot in common.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They really stuck to their principles. They didn’t like graft. They didn’t like to see people throwing their weight around for other reasons than making this park better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They were truly public servants who loved the park. Hammond Hall once wrote:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With drives and rides for the rich, and pleasant rambles for the poor, quiet retreats for those who would be to themselves, and thronged promenades for the gaily disposed, and open grounds for lovers of boisterous sports, and tracks adapted to the special wants of children. The modern urban park is, indeed, the municipality’s open-air assembly room, acceptable, alike to all, and pleasing to each of her citizens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During our day in the park, it was inspiring to see how vibrant this place is. We saw school kids volunteering, cyclists whizzing by, couples out for a romantic stroll, and folks enjoying a quiet moment on a bench.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">clear the park is a place for everyone, just like Hammond Hall imagined it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Olivia Allen Price: And I’m Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Special thanks to Chris Pollock, whose book, San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park, 1,017 Acres of Stories, has all kinds of fun facts about the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Nicole Meldahl, who you can hear on the Outside Lands San Francisco Podcast. They go deep on the history of the city western neighborhoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And thanks to Brendan Willard, Sebastian Mino-Buccelli, Kiana Mogadam, Sarah Rose Leonard, Lance Gardner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rebekah Kao, Christopher Beale, Katie Springer, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, and Ethan Tovan Lindsay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have a few Bay Curious events coming up. First up is \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6151\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious Trivia\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> on April 8th here at KQED’s headquarters in the Mission District. If you’ve been following the show for a while, you know to scoop up tickets quickly because they will sell out. Details at kqed.org slash live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The other event we have coming up is a brand new one for us, and it’s in Golden Gate Park at the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6232\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Conservatory of Flowers on June 20th and 21st\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. We are creating a historically-themed, immersive experience that is going to bring the past of this beautiful building and all its incredible exhibits to life. Join us for an interactive game that will allow you to explore the history of the conservatory and the people who created it. Space is limited. There are timed tours that will be running throughout the evening on both nights. So go ahead and register. That’s also at kqed.org slash live. Hope to see you there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I moved to San Francisco in the summer of 2013 with a giant patch the size of a maxi pad covering my left eye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just a week before my move, I had eye surgery to repair a partially detached retina, a condition that could have left me blind. The first month or so after surgery was tough. Anytime my pulse got a little elevated, I would feel it pounding in my eye. And so my first month in San Francisco was profoundly dark and lonely. I spent most of it lying in bed, listening to audiobooks in a darkened room. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As healing progressed, though, I started to venture outside. First on short walks to the coffee shop, but soon on little runs through Golden Gate Park. I started off on the main thoroughfares. I’d pass by the Conservatory of Flowers, loop around Blue Heron Lake, stop to admire the bison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As my body recovered, my runs grew longer. And it was the sense of discovery in the park that propelled me to add a mile or two here or there on my run each day. Follow an uncertain path into the woods only to find a new garden I’d never seen. My run stretched out first to six miles, then eight miles, 10 miles, and finally 13.1 miles when I kicked my way across the finish line of my very first half marathon which, fittingly, finished in Golden Gate Park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The park revived me, gave me a space to rebuild myself after feeling pretty broken. And that’s why I’m excited to share today’s episode where we dig in on how it was created more than 150 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But first, let me introduce our special guest. Marta Lindsay has combed over every dell, every stone, every pathway to write a new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Discovering Golden Gate Park, a Local’s Guide\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. And she’s here to share some hot tips about the park today. Welcome, Marta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so much for having me. This is a delight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m so glad you could join us. What is it that captured your imagination about Golden Gate Park enough to spend all the time that I know it takes to write a book about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, end of the day, I just really love Golden Gate Park, but I got into it in part because of having a fussy baby. If she was having one of those days where she’s super fussy, like you just have to get outside, right? And for us outside basically was Golden Gate park in the inner sunset area. And I think as I started to spend so much more time in the park, I just saw there was so much more to it than first meets the eye.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1625030704&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Your book has so much information about the different spaces within the park, but today you’ve brought a few things to talk about that even the most devout park lovers might not know. Let’s start with some of those unique stones found in the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The monastery stones. Yes. Once you know about these, then you’re always looking for them and it’s really fun because they are scattered all around the park. Go back in medieval times everyone, and we’re in Spain…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Around the year 1,200 at a monastery overlooking the Tagus River.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And there is this incredibly beautiful series of buildings, kind of castle-like. And they were all made by hand by these monks who hand-carved all these limestones, thousands and thousands of stones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The monastery built of these beautiful stones flourished for hundreds of years until the 1830s, but was shut down by royal decree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And over the years, it was not used, and it was kind of falling apart. And enter William Randolph Hearst. He was, like, kind of the ultimate rich guy of the era. He owned the San Francisco Examiner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, of course, Hearst Castle, the sprawling estate down in San Simeon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He had someone who had scoped out this old monastery in Spain and was like, I think we should take the whole thing apart! Ship it to America and build another amazing castle, but in Northern California this time. 11 ships had to transport the stones of these multiple ancient buildings all the way to San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Depression takes enough wind out of the sails of Hearst’s fortune that this is an impossible thing. And so he ends up selling the stones to the city of San Francisco in 1941. So these stones are just sitting in this warehouse in San Francisco and they’re all marked by the way, when they took them apart, it was like, we got to be able to reassemble them. So they were marked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">essentially packed in wooden crates with instructions on the outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then there’s this idea to build a medieval art museum in Golden Gate Park using the stones. The stones are moved to Golden Gate Park, and then right away there’s a fire. And then there’s some more fires, which burned the markings off. This made it, at the time, impossible to reassemble. Then you’ve just got all these monastery stones sitting in Golden Gate park and what’s gonna happen to them. And eventually they just start using them for gardening. There’s a ton of them in the botanical gardens used in a variety of ways. And then also sometimes you’ll just find one here or there along a path. Some of them are really ornately carved and have like. You know, rounded edges and lots of, like, designs in them. If you go right into the main gate at the botanical garden, immediately to your left, they’ve built this whole wall and structure using them, and so you get to see kind of a variety of the design.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And also how neat to be able to touch these stones and think about the journey they took to get there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Them every day and have no idea that they’re walking by this medieval treasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of folks are probably familiar with the Beach Chalet, the restaurant at the very end of the park that borders on Ocean Beach. They have a lovely view of the Pacific, if you can get a spot in the dining room, which is tricky on the weekends, some solid food, but it can also get pretty crowded on a sunny day. I have heard that you have a tip about somewhere else to try just a short walk away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s the golf clubhouse. I do not golf, but when I went there for researching the book, I was like, oh my gosh, this is a little hidden secret. They redid it a couple years ago and the patio is beautiful. And because of the way they redid the golf course, you can now see through the trees to the ocean, which I think is one of the very few places in the park that you’re actually like having ocean-ness in the background. And they have got this little clubhouse and they’re like serving up. Bill’s burger dog, trademark, which is one of three places you can get a Bill’s Burger Dog, which is basically a hamburger shaped like the size, like a hot dog bun size, but even better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Did they put it in a hot dog bun?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>I\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t’s on a hot dog bun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Then i\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t’s a burger?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>I\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t is a burger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you put burger toppings on it or hot dog toppings on?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I think you could go either way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During the height of the COVID-19 shutdowns, the park really became, I think, a sanctuary for a lot of people, maybe including yourself. It was a way to get out of your house. It was way to interact with other people in a way that was, you know, a bit safer. Do something with your body. In this book, you mentioned that some people really started to make the park their own during that time. Can you tell us about some of those folks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would say quietly during the pandemic, some parts of the park really were transformed in these really magical ways and a lot of people don’t know about them. One of them is if you’re walking along JFK Promenade and you get almost to the whale sculpture that’s in the middle of JFK promenade, on your right side would be 14th Avenue Meadow, which is where they have the beer garden in the summer with the free live music. And then right past that is, you’ll see like a lot of succulents and stuff. And this woman, Marta, happens to share my name.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During the pandemic. She’s like, ‘I was, you know, it was two weeks in, I was depressed, I had a house cleaning business and I couldn’t do that anymore.’ And she’s like I just started going to the park and then there was a rec and park gardener and I told them I was a hard worker and I needed something to do. And so she started tending that area and it’s totally transformed it. And again, like. You’ve got to get off the main path and then you’ll be on these little magical trails and it’s so pretty back there. And she has said, if you see her there, and she’s always wearing this large brimmed hat, like she has extra gloves, and you can go help her anytime.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The little paths that she’s created are especially cool because it looks like there’s just bushes lining the sidewalk there, but if you follow the woodchip paths that she has created back sort of beyond the bushes, there’s a whole little world back there that you can’t see from the main road. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One name that people have probably heard a lot related to Golden Gate Park is John McLaren. He was an early park superintendent who served for more than 50 years, and he did a lot to make the park the special place it is today. His fingerprints are really all over it. He comes up a lot in your book. Can you tell us what it is about him that captured your imagination.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So John McLaren oversaw the park starting in 1890. And William Hammond Hall created the canvas, but then John McLaren was the artist and he really ran with it. And at that time he took over half of the park still had nothing had happened to it yet. Half of the Park, the dunes had been reclaimed and things were starting to be planted, but that was still a whole half of park to deal with, and John McLaren oversaw it all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">His vision for the park was just right on, with wanting it to really feel like an escape into nature. And he had to fight a lot of fights during those years to try to hold to that. But he also was this master gardener with this just eye for design that was. Really special for the time too because the parks that existed at that time were mostly European parks but nature doesn’t run in a straight line was one of his quotes. His favorite thing was the dells. He loved to have flowers growing within a grove of trees somewhere so it’s like you stumble on to this little magical scene right and because he was on the job for so long he was really able to realize that. I just think of how much of what we think of as the look and feel of the park it’s John McLaren.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can find much more about John McLaren in Marta’s book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Discovering Golden Gate Park, A Local’s Guide\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Find it wherever books are sold. Marta Lindsay, thank you so much for talking with us today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When we return, The Making of Golden Gate park. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Next up, producer Katrina Schwartz and I are exploring the early history of how Golden Gate Park was built.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There are a lot of stories about how this park came to be. One tale goes that only a magical combination of horse manure and spit was enough to tame the sandy soil and make it rich enough for plants to grow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I’m no gardener, but even to me, that sounds a little far-fetched. To find some definitive answers, we headed over to the northeast corner of the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So this little path says Oak Woodland Path. should we go up there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, let’s check it out. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The trees we walked through were here before anything else in the park. It’s one of the few areas that remains relatively unchanged.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is an old-growth forest. These would be descendants of the trees that were cut down for firewood during the gold rush. It predated the park, it predated European colonization here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re here with Nicole Meldahl, the executive director of the Western Neighborhoods Project, a community history nonprofit focused on the west side of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s just behind the conservatory flowers, kind of hidden.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We decided to start here because it was this corner of the park where trees grew naturally that gave park creators the confidence they could make the rest of the Park green.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As beautiful as the Oak Grove is, we are still surrounded by the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Trucks that back up are the worst. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We kept going deeper and deeper into the park, hoping to find a quiet spot for our interview.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sorry, we’re off-roading a little. I thought it was a path, but then it became not a path.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Nicole says what we now know as Golden Gate Park, a lush place with winding pathways, protected dells and lots of recreation, wasn’t even part of the city at first.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What did this place look like at the beginning of the gold rush?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An 1853 map of this area, called it the Great Sand Bank. So yeah, it was very empty, isolated. There were a few scattered beach cottages for some adventurous folks. There were homesteaders out here.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s population skyrocketed during the years after the gold rush, and city leaders had big ambitions. But first, they needed more space. In the Outside Lands Act of 1866, the western half of the city became part of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has always thought of itself as like a great, amazing city, right? And it is, we definitely know it is. But really it was the new kid in town. So at some point they decided they needed a park that was befitting of the amazing city that they hoped to build this into.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As luck would have it, the landscape architect Frederick Law Olmsted, famous for designing Central Park in New York, was traveling in California. City leaders asked for his opinion about building the new park in the newly acquired Outside Lands.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And he was like, oh no, no, you can never build a park here. Trees won’t grow in these sand dunes, so I recommend the other side of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">City leaders did not like that recommendation, so instead of following Olmsted’s advice, they found someone else who promised he could transform the dunes into forest. A young surveyor from Stockton named William Hammond Hall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So how did Hammond Hall turn the Great Sandy Bank into this park that we know and love?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, there’s a legend about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some with less veritable facts…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Legend goes Hammond Hall is out with his team surveying the land after the city designated it for the park in 1870.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’ve got their horses with them\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and one of the horse’s feed buckets that hangs around their nose drops, and the barley that’s in their feed spills out into the sand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And then, of course, you need a little fertilizer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, manure from the same horse that the barley fell out of the feed bag from landed directly on top of this little patch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When Hammond hog comes back through that area in a week or so, the quick growing barley from the horse’s bucket has already taken root and is growing. And William Hammond Hall goes…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is going to be the secret recipe for how we tame these dunes, because if you combine the quick growing barley with native lupine here, that will sort of stabilize the dunes long enough to allow for these trees that he wanted to put through the park as wind breaks to grow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s all a little convenient, isn’t it? Nicole thinks elements of this story are true, but the mythical telling leaves out some context. First, historians have recently discovered that there was a farm on the eastern edge of the park that grew barley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, Hammond Hall probably already knew barley could grow here. And second, the process of reclaiming sand by starting with small, quick-growing grasses to build up topsoil before planting trees on top of them was already a well-established practice in Europe. As for the horse manure part of the legend, that is where we get to street sweepers. And no, I’m not talking about the kind that get you a parking ticket.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was common practice for the city to use horse manure they collected in the streets because this is still an era where people used horses on a daily basis so it was a sort of thrifty way to fertilize city parks and areas around town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that’s how acres and acres of sand dunes were transformed into forest. No spit, but there was definitely manure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We were just about to ask Nicole about the park’s many hills and dells, when who should come strolling by but the guy who literally wrote a book on Golden Gate Park’s history? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chris Pollock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my god! Hi! We’re from Be Curious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The park’s historian in the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi! Lovely to meet you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What a coincidence!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a happy meeting because in addition to the land reclamation technique Nicole has been describing, Hammond Hall did something else pretty ingenious when he was superintendent of the park. Chris Pollack calls it respecting the genius of the place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what the genius of the place means is utilizing what you’ve got to work with to the best ability you can.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Basically respect that the landscape looks the way it does for a reason.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What that meant was a very efficient way of using the sand dunes as the existing topography, for the most part, to create this undulating, kind of interesting landscape, because to have it just flat would have been rather boring and counterintuitive to the idea of sustainable environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They knew that the wind coming off the ocean was their worst enemy. If they leveled the park, the wind would continue to push sand eastward and kill new plantings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the area behind the sand dune, it wouldn’t be so windy there, and it might be more hospitable to plant something there as opposed to on the windy side of the sand dunes. So there was a lot of selection being done.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The hidden dells, small hills, and winding paths in the park are the result of using the genius of the place in the design.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Hammond Hall started greening the eastern end of the park, slowly moving westward. But he simultaneously took on the far west end near the beach. Stopping the sand dunes from encroaching was critical to the success of the project. Here’s Nicole again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like okay we’re gonna build a fence and we’re going to put the planks really close together and the dunes will come up and it will hit against that fence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As the sand piled up it made a windbreak \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And on the other side of the fence you know where the dunes aren’t we’re start planning all these things and it’ll start growing up and the Dunes will up to the top of the fence and then we’ll build the fence higher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today, at the far western end of the park, you can still see Hammond Hall’s idea at work. Large trees and bushes protect the intersections of the Park from the sand that comes whipping across the Great Highway, and little sand dunes sometimes pile up at the park’s edges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Within five years, San Franciscans were delighted by their new park. An 1875 article in the San Francisco Examiner said,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Calling to mind the inhospitable desolate aspect of the region a few years since, we cannot but regard with favor the result.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hammond Hall had the sand mostly under control, but something else had become unruly. The politics of the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In general, there was a lot of graft in the city at the time, and William Hammond Hall didn’t like it. So he tried to control what he could with his powers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Superintendent of the park. He fired a blacksmith for padding his contract. A blacksmith who, unfortunately for Hammond Hall, ended up becoming a state legislator. He sought his revenge by blocking funding for the park and accused Hammond hall of misusing park resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The allegations were completely false. However, William Hammond Hall had enough. In 1876, he resigns and the entire Park Commission resigns because they’re so disgusted by what they’re seeing as politics getting in the way of a beautiful city park that the city wanted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The years that followed were bad ones for Golden Gate Park. Hammond Hall’s plans were neglected.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of this sort of falls to the wayside because there’s no money and more people who come to power on the Commission aren’t there for the right reason.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many men with railroad interests were appointed to the Park Commission and lo and behold a railroad gets built to the park — and is barely taxed. And more buildings are popping up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All these things start to materialize that aren’t the wilderness that was initially envisioned here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Though some of the park’s most beloved attractions did come from this time period.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You have the Conservatory of Flowers, which was a bunch of very wealthy men who purchased it from another wealthy man, James Lick, who had passed away and gifted it to the city that put it here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Without a fierce defender of the initial vision for the park, tensions arose over what the park should be. A wild green space where people could connect with nature, or a cultural center to showcase the growing wealth and power of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1890, the Park Commission promoted a man named John McLaren from assistant superintendent up to superintendent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">John McLaren, I think he’s one of the most universally beloved city employees of all time. They built him a giant house. McLaren Lodge was built in 1896 specifically for him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many people think John McLaren was the first superintendent of the park. He wasn’t, but he did continue to build it up in line with the vision Hammond Hall set forward.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He just did it without making so many enemies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is the most famous story you’re ever gonna hear when it comes to John McLaren, is he hated statues in the park, hated them. So he would let them put it wherever it was. They’ve always made a big deal. And then John McLarin would very quietly plant things around the monuments that would grow up over time and totally obscure them so you couldn’t see them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can still find statues nearly hidden by bushes around the music concourse today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">McLaren worked in the park for more than 50 years, overseeing its transformation into the urban gem it is today. Millions of people visit the park each year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">William Hammond Hall, on the other hand, often gets forgotten. But the two men had a lot in common.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They really stuck to their principles. They didn’t like graft. They didn’t like to see people throwing their weight around for other reasons than making this park better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They were truly public servants who loved the park. Hammond Hall once wrote:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With drives and rides for the rich, and pleasant rambles for the poor, quiet retreats for those who would be to themselves, and thronged promenades for the gaily disposed, and open grounds for lovers of boisterous sports, and tracks adapted to the special wants of children. The modern urban park is, indeed, the municipality’s open-air assembly room, acceptable, alike to all, and pleasing to each of her citizens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During our day in the park, it was inspiring to see how vibrant this place is. We saw school kids volunteering, cyclists whizzing by, couples out for a romantic stroll, and folks enjoying a quiet moment on a bench.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">clear the park is a place for everyone, just like Hammond Hall imagined it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Olivia Allen Price: And I’m Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Special thanks to Chris Pollock, whose book, San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park, 1,017 Acres of Stories, has all kinds of fun facts about the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Nicole Meldahl, who you can hear on the Outside Lands San Francisco Podcast. They go deep on the history of the city western neighborhoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And thanks to Brendan Willard, Sebastian Mino-Buccelli, Kiana Mogadam, Sarah Rose Leonard, Lance Gardner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rebekah Kao, Christopher Beale, Katie Springer, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, and Ethan Tovan Lindsay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have a few Bay Curious events coming up. First up is \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6151\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious Trivia\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> on April 8th here at KQED’s headquarters in the Mission District. If you’ve been following the show for a while, you know to scoop up tickets quickly because they will sell out. Details at kqed.org slash live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The other event we have coming up is a brand new one for us, and it’s in Golden Gate Park at the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6232\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Conservatory of Flowers on June 20th and 21st\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. We are creating a historically-themed, immersive experience that is going to bring the past of this beautiful building and all its incredible exhibits to life. Join us for an interactive game that will allow you to explore the history of the conservatory and the people who created it. Space is limited. There are timed tours that will be running throughout the evening on both nights. So go ahead and register. That’s also at kqed.org slash live. Hope to see you there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-navy-jet-generations-of-san-francisco-kids-played-on",
"title": "The Navy Jet Generations of San Francisco Kids Played On",
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"headTitle": "The Navy Jet Generations of San Francisco Kids Played On | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Dennis O’Neill was a kid growing up in the Outer Sunset neighborhood of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a>, his world largely consisted of several blocks to either side of his home. In one direction was his school, Saint Cecilia’s, and in the other was Carl Larsen Park, which had all the usual fun and games plus something a little extra special — a real Navy jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was fantastic, I have to say,” O’Neill said. “I still remember. I’m 64 years old. I remember specifically sitting in that cockpit and being a pilot.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And he’s certainly not the only one. Every time a picture of the Larsen Park plane gets posted to history groups on Facebook, the comments blow up with hundreds of people fondly remembering playing on the jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was a meeting place, after school,” O’Neill remembered. “‘Meet at the airplane.’ That was common. And when you started getting girlfriends or hanging out with girls, that was a safe place to hang out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each kid who played in Larsen Park remembers \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/larsen_park_jets.php\">“their plane” clearly\u003c/a>, but over a period of 35 years, there were actually three different Navy jets in that park. The last one was placed in 1975 — and the nose of it was painted with shark’s teeth. It was there the longest and was known to many as “The Shark in the Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the plane our \u003ca href=\"http://www.baycurious.org\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> question asker, Aaron Van Lieu, played on when he was little.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s some of my earliest memories,” said Van Lieu, who thinks he was 5 for 6. “My brother, dad and I we [went] there in the late 80s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067017\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067017\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aaron Van Lieu looks up at the Vought F-8 Crusader with Janet Doto at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Van Lieu remembers stopping at the park with his dad and brother as a treat after a Saturday morning spent going to open houses with his dad, who was a realtor. The jet was the kids’ reward for behaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Playing tag, but there’s a jet involved, and hide and seek,” Van Lieu reminisced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But despite these fond memories, Aaron also remembers watching the jet slowly fall apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067018\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12067018 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aaron Van Lieu looks at a display showing photos of the Vought F-8 Crusader from when it was located at Carl Larsen Park in San Francisco, and its removal from the park at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Little by little, the wings and parts of the jet just started falling off and disappearing,” Van Lieu said. “And then, eventually, it was kind of like this skeleton.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then one day it was gone. Aaron has spent the better part of 30 years wondering where it landed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He wants to know: “What happened to the jet and why did it get taken out — aside from being covered in graffiti? I just wanna know where it went from there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How did a Navy jet end up in Larsen Park in the first place?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Larsen Park opened in 1926 after Danish immigrant and Tivoli Cafe owner Carl Larsen donated the land. At the time, the concept of a playground was fairly new. \u003ca href=\"https://savingplaces.org/stories/how-we-came-to-play-the-history-of-playgrounds/\">They came into fashion at the turn of the century \u003c/a>when people started to realize that children weren’t just mini adults, but developing beings that learned through play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kids were getting into trouble because they didn’t have enough to do in off-hours of school,” said Christopher Pollock, historian in residence for the San Francisco Recreation and Parks Department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early days, every park had a Recreation Director who kept play equipment in their office, organized games and kept an eye on the kids when they were at the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076067\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1254\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED-160x100.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED-1536x963.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Children play on the first Larsen Park jet circa 1964. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The first jet came to Larsen Park in 1958.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That period is called the jet age because we have rockets being developed,” Pollock said. “People want to go to the moon, and people started designing playground equipment to look like jet planes and rockets and things like that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pollock said even back then, San Francisco didn’t want to be like everywhere else. The general manager of Rec and Park at the time heard that there were surplus jets at \u003ca href=\"https://www.moffettfieldmuseum.org/\">Moffett Field \u003c/a>in Mountain View.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so that becomes our very first plaything in a playground, but it’s the real thing,” Pollock said. “Our kids were going to learn the real straight skinny on stuff, not some representation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They took the engine out of the jet, put it on a truck and dragged it up the freeway to the park with a California Highway Patrol escort. But once in the park, kids were hard on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1387\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED-1536x1065.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The third and final Larsen Park jet, a 1956 F-8 Crusader, just before being removed from the park by Pacific Coast Air Museum volunteers. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Pacific Coast Air Museum)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“About every 10 years, these jets had to be replaced because the kids wore them down so much,” Pollock said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The second jet in Larsen Park came from the Alameda Naval Base and was placed in the park in 1967. But the longest tenured jet — the “Shark in the Park” our question asker loved — arrived in dramatic fashion in 1975.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> article from Jan. 15, 1975, details its route:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A marine helicopter carrying a surplus Navy fighter in its sling, flew under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday morning — after it had cruised under the Bay Bridge. The old F-8 Crusader was taken from Alameda Naval Air Station to the parking lot of the San Francisco Zoo. … The engineless plane will be used, as was its predecessor, as a giant toy in which San Francisco children may take flights of imagination.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After landing at the Zoo, workers towed the jet two and a half miles northeast, going up Sloat Boulevard and down 19th Avenue to Larsen Park. And there it stayed for 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the early 1990s, the F-8 Crusader had seen better days, and city leaders were learning more about the hazards to kids that it posed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070945\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070945\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The jet play structure that replaced the Vought F-8 Crusader at Carl Larsen Park in San Francisco on Jan. 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When this first started, people weren’t thinking so much about safety,” Pollock said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“But as the years went by, safety became a much bigger issue. It was found that the paint on these jets was lead-based, and it was being discovered in later years that this was toxic to children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1993, city leaders had the Navy take the jet back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Larsen Park was without a jet for 22 years. In 2015, Larsen Park playground got a makeover, and community leaders insisted that the new play structure look like a jet plane. It’s no longer the real deal, but kids still like it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So, what happened to the Shark in the Park?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Mattison used to commute from Santa Rosa to a job in Daly City. When he was idling in traffic on 19th Avenue, he’d look over at Larsen Park and see the plane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I look over there, and I say, ‘What’s the city gonna do to that piece of junk? That looks terrible,’” Mattison remembered. “And it’s just the irony that 30 years later, guess what I’m doing?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Retired from the workforce now, and an Air Force veteran, Mattison is a volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://pacificcoastairmuseum.org/\">Pacific Coast Air Museum (PCAM)\u003c/a>, where the Shark in the Park ended up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067090\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067090\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jim Mattison, the Pacific Coast Air Museum volunteer responsible for restoring the Vought F-8 Crusader, talks to Aaron Van Lieu about the restoration process at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The way he tells it, San Francisco leaders were bugging the Navy to take the plane away because it was hazardous. Then, the Navy basically begged the museum to take the F-8 Crusader off their hands, promising that if they did, more aircraft might come the museum’s way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I like to say this was the catalyst,” Mattison said. “This started our association with the Navy. We developed a really close association because we started getting more and more assets. So that’s how we wound up becoming a museum, because we took this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, the museum has an impressive set of aircraft to visit at its open-air site. Some planes flew during War War II, Korea and Vietnam. They have a plane that was one of the first responders to the 9/11 attacks in New York City in 2001. Each volunteer has their favorites — often related to the branch of the military where they served.[aside postID=news_12074947 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00252_TV-KQED.jpg']“We are not a velvet rope air museum,” Mattison said. “We encourage people to touch them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the F-8 Crusader first arrived at the museum in 1993, a crew did a ton of work to reverse some of the things San Francisco Rec and Park had done to make the plane safer for kids. Park workers had filled the body of the plane with concrete to prevent kids from crawling through it — the PCAM crew had to jackhammer it out. And, the body of the plane had been buried in the sand — another safety measure to soften the landing when kids fell off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The entire section of the fuselage where the engine and all the internal components were was filled with sand,” said Guy Crow, a PCAM volunteer who worked on the plane when it first arrived. “About seven yards of sand we scraped, swept, shoveled, vacuumed. And it took us a couple of weeks to get it all out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That original team got the plane looking presentable and painted it with the telltale shark mouth for which it was known. They even had T-shirts made up with “Shark in the Park” on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after more than two decades on display in the field at the museum, the weather had taken its toll on the F-8. Museum staff removed it from the display in 2012 and started revamping it once again in 2014.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We treat [them like] they’re full-size model airplanes,” Mattison said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mattison’s team removed still more sand, fixed the rudder and reskinned the wings and flaps, patched the fuselage and gave it a new paint job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067024\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067024\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Museum visitor Michael Wilkins reads about the F-5E Tiger II at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I chose to paint it in the Marine Corps colors,” Mattison said. “That was the last squadron it flew out of.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The F-8 Crusader was built in 1956 as a “supersonic dayfighter. It was fast. I think it was [one of] the first Navy aircraft that achieved a thousand miles an hour. It’s very maneuverable, and the pilots loved flying it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Aaron Van Lieu, accompanied me on the trip to the museum. He remembered the jet immediately, although he said it looked bigger than he remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s just a rush and flush of emotions and memories,” he said. “I’m on top of the world, being able to see it again. ‘Cause I’ve always wondered what happened to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>The Pacific Coast Air Museum is open \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://pacificcoastairmuseum.org/visit-us/#hours_admin\">\u003cem>Thursday-Sunday, 10 a.m.-4 p.m.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> It’s\u003c/em> \u003cem>located at the Charles M Schulz — Sonoma County Airport, off Airport Boulevard on the corner of N. Laughlin Road. and Becker Boulevard.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Things were different for San Francisco kids back in the 1960s and ’70s. For one, there was a lot more freedom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>In those days, there were no cars parked on the street for the most part. And there were kids everywhere. You know, there were six or seven kids on my block. My name’s Dennis O’Neill. I grew up on 18th Avenue from about 1963 to 1980.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Dennis and the other neighborhood kids spent a lot of time at nearby Larsen Park. It’s right on busy 19th Avenue at Vicente Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>We were seven or eight. And our parents, you know, allowed us to cross 19th Avenue, the highway, on a green light and go to the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Back then, every city park had a park director. They would organize games, keep an eye on the kids and maintain play equipment. But Larsen Park also had something that made it extra special. A real Navy jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>It felt like an actual jet landed in Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And wow, was that jet beloved by the neighborhood kids!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>It was fantastic, I have to say. I still remember. I’m 64 years old. I remember specifically sitting in that cockpit and being a pilot, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: Our question asker this week, Aaron Van Lieu, also spent a lot of time at the plane in Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu:\u003c/strong> It’s some of my earliest memories. My brother, dad and I were going there in the late ’80s, like ’88-’89. So I was like 4, 5, 6.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over a period of 35 years, there were actually three different Navy jets in that park. The last one was placed in 1975, and the nose of it was painted with shark’s teeth. It was there the longest and was known to many as “The Shark in the Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the plane Aaron remembers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Playing tag, but there’s a jet involved. And hide and seek and you know, just running around it. My dad, you know, trying to explain what certain things were because for a long time the canopy was there, and you could see inside of it, and it had all the gauges and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But Aaron also remembers how the jet slowly started falling apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Little by little, the wings and parts of the jet just started falling off and going and disappearing. So, and then eventually it was like kind of like this, like skeleton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And then, one day, it was gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Aaron has spent decades wondering what happened to that jet that he loved so much. He even credits it, in small part, with his love of aviation and a short stint as a flight attendant. He wants to know:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>What happened to the jet, and why did it get taken out, aside from being covered in graffiti? So I just wanna know where it went from there, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And, I want to know who thought a jet in a playground was a good idea in the first place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz, always the pragmatic one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>A real fighter jet has to be one of the most expensive pieces of playground equipment ever!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So, I did a little math, and the plane cost about 2 million to build originally, which is nearly $24 million today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of pickleball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Our modern obsessions on display at the park are a little more mundane … and a lot less expensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Pickleball sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The near constant pop and thwack of the very popular pickleball courts has been the soundtrack to Larsen Park since they opened in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I visited with Christopher Pollock, historian in residence for the San Francisco Recreation and Parks Department, to learn a little more about this park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>So Carl L Larsen is a Danish immigrant who was a cafe owner in downtown San Francisco. He owned the Tivoli Cafe and he was quite a large landowner in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Larsen gave the city a parcel of land to create a park before this west side neighborhood was even fully built. The park opened in 1926. Bisected by Vicente Street, one side had tennis courts and playground equipment and the other side had an open field and a swimming pool, now called Sava Pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>He, as a developer, certainly had the vision that San Francisco was going to grow and that things would grow to be what they are today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>At this point, playgrounds were a fairly new idea. They only came into fashion in the early 1900s as a tool to keep kids off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>Kids were getting into trouble because they didn’t have enough to do in off hours of school. Yeah, they had their playgrounds within the schools, but those were closed when school was not open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The first Navy jet came to Larsen Park in 1958. It was during the Cold War and people were obsessed with going to the moon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival video 1: \u003c/strong>In October 1957, the world entered the Space Age. At that time, a multistage rocket took off from Russia – Sputnik 1.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival video 2: \u003c/strong>More and more teenagers are giving up rock and roll for Rocket Rolls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>People want to go to the moon, and so it becomes a very popular kind of thing that people started designing playground equipment to look like jet planes and rockets and things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Space exploration was a national obsession. But you know, San Francisco, it had to approach the trend a little differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>There was surplus jet down at Moffat Field in Mountain View and that it could be had for a song. It just had to be brought to San Francisco. So that becomes our very first plaything in a playground, but it’s the real thing. Our kids were going to learn, you know, the real straight skinny on stuff, not some representation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to forget that back then, San Francisco was a Navy town. The city was surrounded by Naval stations and there were jets like this one in playgrounds in Bayview, Sunnyvale and San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as any parent knows, kids are hard on stuff. Even military grade materials were no match for their grubby little hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>About every 10 years these jets had to be replaced because the kids wore them down so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The \u003cem>second\u003c/em> jet in Larsen Park came from the Alameda Naval Base and was placed in the park in 1967. But the longest tenured jet — the “shark in the park” our question asker loved — arrived in dramatic fashion eight years later, in 1975.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newspaper read: \u003c/strong>A marine helicopter carrying a surplus Navy fighter in its sling, flew under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday morning — after it had cruised under the Bay Bridge. The old F-8 Crusader was taken from Alameda Naval Air Station to the parking lot of the San Francisco Zoo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>They then towed the jet two and a half miles northeast … going up Sloat Boulevard and down 19th Avenue to Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newspaper read: \u003c/strong>The engineless plane will be used, as was its predecessor, as a giant toy in which San Francisco children may take flights of imagination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And there it stayed, delighting generations of children … for 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock:\u003c/strong> When this first started, people weren’t thinking so much about safety, but as the years went by, safety became a much bigger issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The first two planes were propped up, with ladders to climb into the cockpits. Kids would crawl on the wings, fall off and break arms and legs. And, the metal was sharp — many a kid got a nasty gash playing on the jets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>Not only that but it was found that the paint on these jets was lead-based and it was being discovered in later years that this was toxic to children. It was decided in 1993 to remove the last of the three jets. And so we were without a jet for a very long time in this park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After 22 jetless years, Larsen Park got an all new playground in 2015, one complete with a play structure that looks like a jet. It may not be the \u003cem>real\u003c/em> thing, but kids still like it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time the shark in the park was removed, it was a hunk of junk. The wings were gone, the nose ripped off and it was covered in graffiti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>My last memory of it is being like a skeleton. So I would hope that it was maybe fixed a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was in that forlorn state that Aaron, our question asker, last saw the plane. Until I met up with him at the Pacific Coast Air Museum to show him what had become of it. That’s coming up, after this short break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Aaron Van Lieu has always wondered what happened to the jet in San Francisco’s Larsen Park that made such an impression on him as a child. And it turns out, its new home isn’t too far away, at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>OK, we ready?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I guess so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Aaron and I meet up at the museum and hop in a golf cart for a quick tour with Janet Doto, an Airforce veteran and volunteer here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>These are the two top gun aircraft, the F-14 Tomcat and then the F-18 Viper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>The Tomcat was one of my favorite jets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Dotto:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a beautiful jet. My favorite’s the F4, but yeah, I’m partial. 23 years in the Air Force, you can’t love a navy aircraft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The museum is a small but mighty operation. Almost all outdoors, they have 37 restored aircraft. One plane fought in WWII, another was a first responder to the 911 attacks and of course, parked out on the tarmac they’ve got the Shark in the Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>And there she is, the F-8.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>This one right here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>That’s the one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Whoa!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Is it how you remember it looking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Yeah, very much. Yeah, the canopy, it actually looks bigger than I remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>That’s probably because there’s more of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This F-8 jet is the very one that generations of San Francisco kids played on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>Aaron, okay, I’m Jim Mattison. I’m the crew chief. And I’m proud to say I’m responsible for how this came out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Jim is also an Air Force veteran and volunteer. But his memories of the Shark in the Park go way back to when he used to be stuck in traffic on 19th Avenue, commuting to Daly City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>I look over there, and I say, What’s the city gonna do to that piece of junk? That looks terrible. And it’s just the irony that 30 years later, guess what I’m doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Jim and his team have lovingly restored this 1956 F-8. The paint scheme is mostly gray with accents of red and navy blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>I chose to paint it in the Marine Corps colors. Why? Because that was the last squadron it flew out of. And this was such an amazing paint scheme, I saw that and thought, I know what I want to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The Navy basically begged the museum to take the plane. San Francisco officials wanted the dangerous eyesore gone, especially because by the 90s, the Navy’s presence in the Bay Area had waned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>They got a big crane and a low boy truck. Dug it out of the sand, took it apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And like so many jets before it, put it on a truck and drove it up to Santa Rosa\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>And then just like a model airplane, put it all back together. My teammate, he was working on the belly. And every once in a while, he’s busy banging and drilling holes. He’d get a face full of Larson Park sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The museum initially didn’t want to take this plane, but now, it’s one of the most popular attractions. Many visitors who remember playing on the F-8 as kids never knew much about what the jet did before it became playground equipment. That history is something Jim is passionate about sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>This was designed as a supersonic day fighter for the Navy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It would land on incredibly short runways … just 500 feet … on floating aircraft carriers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>And it was fast. Very maneuverable and the pilots loved flying it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>I’m curious, Aaron, what do you think now that you’ve seen it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>There’s been a rush and flush of emotions and and memories, you know. I’m on top of the world being able to see it again, really. ‘Cause I’ve always wondered what happened to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And if you remember playing on this jet and have always wondered what happened to it … the Pacific Coast Air Museum is waiting for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can still play on some real Navy equipment if you go to Lincoln and 45th Avenue Playground in Golden Gate Park. There’s a blue boat there that was donated by the Navy … and it’s the real deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are you loving having more Bay Curious episodes in your podcast feed? If so, you can get even more Bay Curious in your life via the Bay Curious newsletter! Head to our website to sign up. As always, at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BC is made in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Cleared for takeoff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each kid who played in Larsen Park remembers \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/larsen_park_jets.php\">“their plane” clearly\u003c/a>, but over a period of 35 years, there were actually three different Navy jets in that park. The last one was placed in 1975 — and the nose of it was painted with shark’s teeth. It was there the longest and was known to many as “The Shark in the Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the plane our \u003ca href=\"http://www.baycurious.org\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> question asker, Aaron Van Lieu, played on when he was little.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s some of my earliest memories,” said Van Lieu, who thinks he was 5 for 6. “My brother, dad and I we [went] there in the late 80s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067017\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067017\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aaron Van Lieu looks up at the Vought F-8 Crusader with Janet Doto at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Van Lieu remembers stopping at the park with his dad and brother as a treat after a Saturday morning spent going to open houses with his dad, who was a realtor. The jet was the kids’ reward for behaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Playing tag, but there’s a jet involved, and hide and seek,” Van Lieu reminisced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But despite these fond memories, Aaron also remembers watching the jet slowly fall apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067018\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12067018 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aaron Van Lieu looks at a display showing photos of the Vought F-8 Crusader from when it was located at Carl Larsen Park in San Francisco, and its removal from the park at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Little by little, the wings and parts of the jet just started falling off and disappearing,” Van Lieu said. “And then, eventually, it was kind of like this skeleton.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then one day it was gone. Aaron has spent the better part of 30 years wondering where it landed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He wants to know: “What happened to the jet and why did it get taken out — aside from being covered in graffiti? I just wanna know where it went from there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How did a Navy jet end up in Larsen Park in the first place?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Larsen Park opened in 1926 after Danish immigrant and Tivoli Cafe owner Carl Larsen donated the land. At the time, the concept of a playground was fairly new. \u003ca href=\"https://savingplaces.org/stories/how-we-came-to-play-the-history-of-playgrounds/\">They came into fashion at the turn of the century \u003c/a>when people started to realize that children weren’t just mini adults, but developing beings that learned through play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kids were getting into trouble because they didn’t have enough to do in off-hours of school,” said Christopher Pollock, historian in residence for the San Francisco Recreation and Parks Department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early days, every park had a Recreation Director who kept play equipment in their office, organized games and kept an eye on the kids when they were at the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076067\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1254\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED-160x100.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED-1536x963.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Children play on the first Larsen Park jet circa 1964. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The first jet came to Larsen Park in 1958.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That period is called the jet age because we have rockets being developed,” Pollock said. “People want to go to the moon, and people started designing playground equipment to look like jet planes and rockets and things like that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pollock said even back then, San Francisco didn’t want to be like everywhere else. The general manager of Rec and Park at the time heard that there were surplus jets at \u003ca href=\"https://www.moffettfieldmuseum.org/\">Moffett Field \u003c/a>in Mountain View.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so that becomes our very first plaything in a playground, but it’s the real thing,” Pollock said. “Our kids were going to learn the real straight skinny on stuff, not some representation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They took the engine out of the jet, put it on a truck and dragged it up the freeway to the park with a California Highway Patrol escort. But once in the park, kids were hard on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1387\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED-1536x1065.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The third and final Larsen Park jet, a 1956 F-8 Crusader, just before being removed from the park by Pacific Coast Air Museum volunteers. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Pacific Coast Air Museum)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“About every 10 years, these jets had to be replaced because the kids wore them down so much,” Pollock said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The second jet in Larsen Park came from the Alameda Naval Base and was placed in the park in 1967. But the longest tenured jet — the “Shark in the Park” our question asker loved — arrived in dramatic fashion in 1975.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> article from Jan. 15, 1975, details its route:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A marine helicopter carrying a surplus Navy fighter in its sling, flew under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday morning — after it had cruised under the Bay Bridge. The old F-8 Crusader was taken from Alameda Naval Air Station to the parking lot of the San Francisco Zoo. … The engineless plane will be used, as was its predecessor, as a giant toy in which San Francisco children may take flights of imagination.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After landing at the Zoo, workers towed the jet two and a half miles northeast, going up Sloat Boulevard and down 19th Avenue to Larsen Park. And there it stayed for 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the early 1990s, the F-8 Crusader had seen better days, and city leaders were learning more about the hazards to kids that it posed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070945\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070945\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The jet play structure that replaced the Vought F-8 Crusader at Carl Larsen Park in San Francisco on Jan. 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When this first started, people weren’t thinking so much about safety,” Pollock said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“But as the years went by, safety became a much bigger issue. It was found that the paint on these jets was lead-based, and it was being discovered in later years that this was toxic to children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1993, city leaders had the Navy take the jet back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Larsen Park was without a jet for 22 years. In 2015, Larsen Park playground got a makeover, and community leaders insisted that the new play structure look like a jet plane. It’s no longer the real deal, but kids still like it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So, what happened to the Shark in the Park?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Mattison used to commute from Santa Rosa to a job in Daly City. When he was idling in traffic on 19th Avenue, he’d look over at Larsen Park and see the plane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I look over there, and I say, ‘What’s the city gonna do to that piece of junk? That looks terrible,’” Mattison remembered. “And it’s just the irony that 30 years later, guess what I’m doing?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Retired from the workforce now, and an Air Force veteran, Mattison is a volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://pacificcoastairmuseum.org/\">Pacific Coast Air Museum (PCAM)\u003c/a>, where the Shark in the Park ended up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067090\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067090\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jim Mattison, the Pacific Coast Air Museum volunteer responsible for restoring the Vought F-8 Crusader, talks to Aaron Van Lieu about the restoration process at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The way he tells it, San Francisco leaders were bugging the Navy to take the plane away because it was hazardous. Then, the Navy basically begged the museum to take the F-8 Crusader off their hands, promising that if they did, more aircraft might come the museum’s way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I like to say this was the catalyst,” Mattison said. “This started our association with the Navy. We developed a really close association because we started getting more and more assets. So that’s how we wound up becoming a museum, because we took this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, the museum has an impressive set of aircraft to visit at its open-air site. Some planes flew during War War II, Korea and Vietnam. They have a plane that was one of the first responders to the 9/11 attacks in New York City in 2001. Each volunteer has their favorites — often related to the branch of the military where they served.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“We are not a velvet rope air museum,” Mattison said. “We encourage people to touch them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the F-8 Crusader first arrived at the museum in 1993, a crew did a ton of work to reverse some of the things San Francisco Rec and Park had done to make the plane safer for kids. Park workers had filled the body of the plane with concrete to prevent kids from crawling through it — the PCAM crew had to jackhammer it out. And, the body of the plane had been buried in the sand — another safety measure to soften the landing when kids fell off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The entire section of the fuselage where the engine and all the internal components were was filled with sand,” said Guy Crow, a PCAM volunteer who worked on the plane when it first arrived. “About seven yards of sand we scraped, swept, shoveled, vacuumed. And it took us a couple of weeks to get it all out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That original team got the plane looking presentable and painted it with the telltale shark mouth for which it was known. They even had T-shirts made up with “Shark in the Park” on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after more than two decades on display in the field at the museum, the weather had taken its toll on the F-8. Museum staff removed it from the display in 2012 and started revamping it once again in 2014.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We treat [them like] they’re full-size model airplanes,” Mattison said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mattison’s team removed still more sand, fixed the rudder and reskinned the wings and flaps, patched the fuselage and gave it a new paint job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067024\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067024\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Museum visitor Michael Wilkins reads about the F-5E Tiger II at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I chose to paint it in the Marine Corps colors,” Mattison said. “That was the last squadron it flew out of.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The F-8 Crusader was built in 1956 as a “supersonic dayfighter. It was fast. I think it was [one of] the first Navy aircraft that achieved a thousand miles an hour. It’s very maneuverable, and the pilots loved flying it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Aaron Van Lieu, accompanied me on the trip to the museum. He remembered the jet immediately, although he said it looked bigger than he remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s just a rush and flush of emotions and memories,” he said. “I’m on top of the world, being able to see it again. ‘Cause I’ve always wondered what happened to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>The Pacific Coast Air Museum is open \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://pacificcoastairmuseum.org/visit-us/#hours_admin\">\u003cem>Thursday-Sunday, 10 a.m.-4 p.m.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> It’s\u003c/em> \u003cem>located at the Charles M Schulz — Sonoma County Airport, off Airport Boulevard on the corner of N. Laughlin Road. and Becker Boulevard.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Things were different for San Francisco kids back in the 1960s and ’70s. For one, there was a lot more freedom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>In those days, there were no cars parked on the street for the most part. And there were kids everywhere. You know, there were six or seven kids on my block. My name’s Dennis O’Neill. I grew up on 18th Avenue from about 1963 to 1980.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Dennis and the other neighborhood kids spent a lot of time at nearby Larsen Park. It’s right on busy 19th Avenue at Vicente Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>We were seven or eight. And our parents, you know, allowed us to cross 19th Avenue, the highway, on a green light and go to the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Back then, every city park had a park director. They would organize games, keep an eye on the kids and maintain play equipment. But Larsen Park also had something that made it extra special. A real Navy jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>It felt like an actual jet landed in Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And wow, was that jet beloved by the neighborhood kids!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>It was fantastic, I have to say. I still remember. I’m 64 years old. I remember specifically sitting in that cockpit and being a pilot, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: Our question asker this week, Aaron Van Lieu, also spent a lot of time at the plane in Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu:\u003c/strong> It’s some of my earliest memories. My brother, dad and I were going there in the late ’80s, like ’88-’89. So I was like 4, 5, 6.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over a period of 35 years, there were actually three different Navy jets in that park. The last one was placed in 1975, and the nose of it was painted with shark’s teeth. It was there the longest and was known to many as “The Shark in the Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the plane Aaron remembers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Playing tag, but there’s a jet involved. And hide and seek and you know, just running around it. My dad, you know, trying to explain what certain things were because for a long time the canopy was there, and you could see inside of it, and it had all the gauges and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But Aaron also remembers how the jet slowly started falling apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Little by little, the wings and parts of the jet just started falling off and going and disappearing. So, and then eventually it was like kind of like this, like skeleton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And then, one day, it was gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Aaron has spent decades wondering what happened to that jet that he loved so much. He even credits it, in small part, with his love of aviation and a short stint as a flight attendant. He wants to know:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>What happened to the jet, and why did it get taken out, aside from being covered in graffiti? So I just wanna know where it went from there, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And, I want to know who thought a jet in a playground was a good idea in the first place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz, always the pragmatic one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>A real fighter jet has to be one of the most expensive pieces of playground equipment ever!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So, I did a little math, and the plane cost about 2 million to build originally, which is nearly $24 million today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of pickleball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Our modern obsessions on display at the park are a little more mundane … and a lot less expensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Pickleball sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The near constant pop and thwack of the very popular pickleball courts has been the soundtrack to Larsen Park since they opened in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I visited with Christopher Pollock, historian in residence for the San Francisco Recreation and Parks Department, to learn a little more about this park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>So Carl L Larsen is a Danish immigrant who was a cafe owner in downtown San Francisco. He owned the Tivoli Cafe and he was quite a large landowner in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Larsen gave the city a parcel of land to create a park before this west side neighborhood was even fully built. The park opened in 1926. Bisected by Vicente Street, one side had tennis courts and playground equipment and the other side had an open field and a swimming pool, now called Sava Pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>He, as a developer, certainly had the vision that San Francisco was going to grow and that things would grow to be what they are today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>At this point, playgrounds were a fairly new idea. They only came into fashion in the early 1900s as a tool to keep kids off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>Kids were getting into trouble because they didn’t have enough to do in off hours of school. Yeah, they had their playgrounds within the schools, but those were closed when school was not open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The first Navy jet came to Larsen Park in 1958. It was during the Cold War and people were obsessed with going to the moon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival video 1: \u003c/strong>In October 1957, the world entered the Space Age. At that time, a multistage rocket took off from Russia – Sputnik 1.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival video 2: \u003c/strong>More and more teenagers are giving up rock and roll for Rocket Rolls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>People want to go to the moon, and so it becomes a very popular kind of thing that people started designing playground equipment to look like jet planes and rockets and things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Space exploration was a national obsession. But you know, San Francisco, it had to approach the trend a little differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>There was surplus jet down at Moffat Field in Mountain View and that it could be had for a song. It just had to be brought to San Francisco. So that becomes our very first plaything in a playground, but it’s the real thing. Our kids were going to learn, you know, the real straight skinny on stuff, not some representation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to forget that back then, San Francisco was a Navy town. The city was surrounded by Naval stations and there were jets like this one in playgrounds in Bayview, Sunnyvale and San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as any parent knows, kids are hard on stuff. Even military grade materials were no match for their grubby little hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>About every 10 years these jets had to be replaced because the kids wore them down so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The \u003cem>second\u003c/em> jet in Larsen Park came from the Alameda Naval Base and was placed in the park in 1967. But the longest tenured jet — the “shark in the park” our question asker loved — arrived in dramatic fashion eight years later, in 1975.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newspaper read: \u003c/strong>A marine helicopter carrying a surplus Navy fighter in its sling, flew under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday morning — after it had cruised under the Bay Bridge. The old F-8 Crusader was taken from Alameda Naval Air Station to the parking lot of the San Francisco Zoo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>They then towed the jet two and a half miles northeast … going up Sloat Boulevard and down 19th Avenue to Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newspaper read: \u003c/strong>The engineless plane will be used, as was its predecessor, as a giant toy in which San Francisco children may take flights of imagination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And there it stayed, delighting generations of children … for 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock:\u003c/strong> When this first started, people weren’t thinking so much about safety, but as the years went by, safety became a much bigger issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The first two planes were propped up, with ladders to climb into the cockpits. Kids would crawl on the wings, fall off and break arms and legs. And, the metal was sharp — many a kid got a nasty gash playing on the jets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>Not only that but it was found that the paint on these jets was lead-based and it was being discovered in later years that this was toxic to children. It was decided in 1993 to remove the last of the three jets. And so we were without a jet for a very long time in this park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After 22 jetless years, Larsen Park got an all new playground in 2015, one complete with a play structure that looks like a jet. It may not be the \u003cem>real\u003c/em> thing, but kids still like it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time the shark in the park was removed, it was a hunk of junk. The wings were gone, the nose ripped off and it was covered in graffiti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>My last memory of it is being like a skeleton. So I would hope that it was maybe fixed a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was in that forlorn state that Aaron, our question asker, last saw the plane. Until I met up with him at the Pacific Coast Air Museum to show him what had become of it. That’s coming up, after this short break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Aaron Van Lieu has always wondered what happened to the jet in San Francisco’s Larsen Park that made such an impression on him as a child. And it turns out, its new home isn’t too far away, at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>OK, we ready?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I guess so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Aaron and I meet up at the museum and hop in a golf cart for a quick tour with Janet Doto, an Airforce veteran and volunteer here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>These are the two top gun aircraft, the F-14 Tomcat and then the F-18 Viper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>The Tomcat was one of my favorite jets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Dotto:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a beautiful jet. My favorite’s the F4, but yeah, I’m partial. 23 years in the Air Force, you can’t love a navy aircraft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The museum is a small but mighty operation. Almost all outdoors, they have 37 restored aircraft. One plane fought in WWII, another was a first responder to the 911 attacks and of course, parked out on the tarmac they’ve got the Shark in the Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>And there she is, the F-8.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>This one right here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>That’s the one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Whoa!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Is it how you remember it looking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Yeah, very much. Yeah, the canopy, it actually looks bigger than I remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>That’s probably because there’s more of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This F-8 jet is the very one that generations of San Francisco kids played on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>Aaron, okay, I’m Jim Mattison. I’m the crew chief. And I’m proud to say I’m responsible for how this came out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Jim is also an Air Force veteran and volunteer. But his memories of the Shark in the Park go way back to when he used to be stuck in traffic on 19th Avenue, commuting to Daly City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>I look over there, and I say, What’s the city gonna do to that piece of junk? That looks terrible. And it’s just the irony that 30 years later, guess what I’m doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Jim and his team have lovingly restored this 1956 F-8. The paint scheme is mostly gray with accents of red and navy blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>I chose to paint it in the Marine Corps colors. Why? Because that was the last squadron it flew out of. And this was such an amazing paint scheme, I saw that and thought, I know what I want to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The Navy basically begged the museum to take the plane. San Francisco officials wanted the dangerous eyesore gone, especially because by the 90s, the Navy’s presence in the Bay Area had waned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>They got a big crane and a low boy truck. Dug it out of the sand, took it apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And like so many jets before it, put it on a truck and drove it up to Santa Rosa\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>And then just like a model airplane, put it all back together. My teammate, he was working on the belly. And every once in a while, he’s busy banging and drilling holes. He’d get a face full of Larson Park sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The museum initially didn’t want to take this plane, but now, it’s one of the most popular attractions. Many visitors who remember playing on the F-8 as kids never knew much about what the jet did before it became playground equipment. That history is something Jim is passionate about sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>This was designed as a supersonic day fighter for the Navy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It would land on incredibly short runways … just 500 feet … on floating aircraft carriers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>And it was fast. Very maneuverable and the pilots loved flying it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>I’m curious, Aaron, what do you think now that you’ve seen it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>There’s been a rush and flush of emotions and and memories, you know. I’m on top of the world being able to see it again, really. ‘Cause I’ve always wondered what happened to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And if you remember playing on this jet and have always wondered what happened to it … the Pacific Coast Air Museum is waiting for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can still play on some real Navy equipment if you go to Lincoln and 45th Avenue Playground in Golden Gate Park. There’s a blue boat there that was donated by the Navy … and it’s the real deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are you loving having more Bay Curious episodes in your podcast feed? If so, you can get even more Bay Curious in your life via the Bay Curious newsletter! Head to our website to sign up. As always, at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BC is made in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Cleared for takeoff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-eccentric-personalities-behind-sunnyside-conservatory-a-120-year-old-garden-in-san-francisco",
"title": "The Eccentric Personalities Behind Sunnyside Conservatory, a 120-Year-Old Garden in San Francisco",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s \u003c/a>Sunnyside neighborhood, just west of Glen Park, isn’t actually very sunny. In fact, it’s one of the foggier places in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of its main thoroughfares, Monterey Boulevard, carries drivers west towards tonier places like St. Francis Wood, passing many houses and apartment buildings along the way. But slow down a little, and you might catch a glimpse of a building that feels out of the ordinary in this residential place — Sunnyside Conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Set back from the street and tucked behind a wrought iron gate, the octagonal redwood building has two stories of windows surrounded by a lush garden of towering palms, ferns and flowering bushes. It’s beautiful and old-world feeling, a unique Victorian gem on an otherwise busy street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Mary Balmana often uses Monterey Boulevard to get to her home in Mission Terrace. She’s seen the conservatory hundreds of times, but hasn’t noticed anyone going inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know anything about it, but I’ve passed it my whole life,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074410\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside resident and historian Amy O’Hair poses for a portrait at Sunnyside Conservatory in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, she wants answers. What is the conservatory doing here in Sunnyside, who owns it and could she rent it out?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An inventor’s oasis\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Sunnyside Conservatory was built by William Augustus Merralls, a British inventor and eccentric. He bought a house along what is now Monterey Boulevard in 1897, when the area was mostly rural. Land was cheap, so he also bought up seven lots around his house and then set about making the grounds his own private oasis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He collected exotic plants, and he liked to have a place for them,” said Amy O’Hair, Sunnyside resident,\u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/\"> local historian\u003c/a> and author of the forthcoming book, \u003cem>History Walks in Sunnyside\u003c/em>. She’s currently writing a book about the conservatory’s history.[aside postID=news_12074121 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-ITALIANNORTHBEACH-06-BL-KQED.jpg']Merralls made his money designing and patenting mining equipment. He had more than 20 different patents, mostly for machines that helped extract ever smaller amounts of gold from rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He did well, but whatever he got he spent on his projects,” O’Hair said. “He had a restless mind, always wanting to invent new things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of his inventions were practical, others less so. He invented an automobile starter, a refrigerator and a “deep breathing developer,” a contraption for his wife, Temperance Laura, who was fascinated by alternative medicine. The details of how it actually worked have been lost to time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1902, he built the conservatory, a building beautifully crafted out of redwood in Victorian style. In addition to collecting exotic plants, Merralls also loved astronomy. He built himself an observatory on the back of his house. And he loved luxury items; his house had two grand pianos and a private bowling alley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He apparently didn’t need to live amongst his peers,” O’Hair said. “He was a very independent-minded man, and he was happy out here in his own enclave with all of his toys in the house and all of those plants out here in the conservatory and a wife he loved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He and his wife, Temperance Laura, lived in Sunnyside, enjoying their house and its grounds until 1914, when Merralls tragically died in a train accident while visiting a friend in Alameda. By that point, he had sunk all his money into various pursuits that hadn’t paid off, and when he died, Temperance Laura couldn’t afford to keep living on their estate in Sunnyside. The bank repossessed the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Second act as swindler’s hideout\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The property sat empty and neglected for three years before another odd couple, Ernest and Angele Van Beckh, came along and \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2023/07/18/the-king-of-the-clairvoyants-the-man-who-bought-the-sunnyside-conservatory/\">bought it in 1919\u003c/a>. Ernest Van Beckh was a con man, a member of the \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2023/07/18/the-king-of-the-clairvoyants-the-man-who-bought-the-sunnyside-conservatory/\">“Big Five” \u003c/a>whose exploits selling worthless mining shares to unsuspecting people and stealing their money were splashed across the newspapers in 1916.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the district attorney brought charges against Van Beckh, he got off when witnesses the prosecution had lined up to testify “just kind of went away,” as Amy put it. One went back to Montana. Another decided not to press charges. And Ernest avoided jail time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074414\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074414\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED-1536x1030.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside Conservatory circa 1975, when it had fallen into disrepair. Here, the east wing still stands, but it was later knocked down. \u003ccite>(Greg Gaar/San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“They made millions of dollars in the 1910s,” O’Hair said. “And some of that money went towards buying this property. This was their hideout.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Van Beckhs would live here for decades. Ernest died in 1951, but Angele stayed on through the early ‘60s, although she too started to have money problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She slowly sold off all the property to a neighbor,” O’Hair said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The neighbors were friends who built their own house on the other side of the conservatory — what is now 234 Monterey Boulevard. While Angele was living there, the two families enjoyed the conservatory and its grounds as one shared yard. But when they moved away, the property lines became a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Saving the conservatory again and again\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1974, Angele’s friends sold their house at 234 Monterey Boulevard and the property with the conservatory on it to a man named Robert Anderson. He started delineating the different lots with an eye to \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2025/04/18/saving-sunnyside-conservatory/\">developing the property\u003c/a> further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the same time, neighbors started getting interested in preserving the conservatory as a historic landmark. The \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysideassociation.org/\">Sunnyside Neighborhood Association\u003c/a> had just formed, and its members started researching the conservatory’s history with a goal to get it landmarked by the city.[aside postID=news_11958380 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/BlueHouse_Flickr.png']“They wanted to save it from demolition,” O’Hair said. After World War II, \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2025/12/07/sunnyside-upzoned/\">Sunnyside was rezoned \u003c/a>to allow for more apartment buildings, which started popping up along Monterey Boulevard throughout the 1950s, 60s and 70s. “And they didn’t want to see this property go for apartment buildings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neighbors were successful in getting the \u003ca href=\"https://default.sfplanning.org/Preservation/bulletins/HistPres_Bulletin_09.PDF\">conservatory landmarked in 1975\u003c/a>, which theoretically should have preserved it. However, the owner, Robert Anderson, still managed to get a permit to demolish it. Neighbors had no idea about his plan until they spotted construction equipment at work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was riding my bicycle along Monterey Boulevard,” neighbor \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v70K3B-inOg\">Greg Garr said in an interview with Amy O’Hair\u003c/a>. “I think I was going to City College at that time. And I passed by the Sunnyside Conservatory, and I saw heavy equipment in there. And part of the building had been removed. And I said, ‘What the heck? I mean, are they demolishing it?’ I knew it was a registered historic landmark.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called his representative and City Hall, clamoring to stop the demolition. Those efforts were successful, but the damage had been done. The structure was damaged, and almost all the windows had been knocked out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was an emergency now,” O’Hair said. “The city needed to buy the property. What good is a landmark if you don’t own the property under it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074238\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074238\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A stock certificate of William Merralls, who built Sunnyside Conservatory, is shown by Amy O’Hair at Sunnyside Conservatory in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1980, the city bought the land from Robert Anderson using the \u003ca href=\"https://generalplan.sfplanning.org/I3_Recreation_and_Open_Space.htm#:~:text=San%20Francisco%20values%20its%20recreation,the%20combination%20of%20the%20two.\">Open Space Fund\u003c/a>. And for many years after, the Sunnyside Neighborhood Association did its best to look after the building, but it fell into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All those years in the 90s when it had no glass, and you could climb right over [the fence], there was always graffiti and beer bottles,” O’Hair remembered. “And Rec and Park didn’t really take care of the grounds.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, it was another neighbor, \u003ca href=\"https://calhortsociety.org/2020/01/29/ted-kipping/\">Ted Kipping\u003c/a>, who tended the beautiful trees and plants William Merralls had planted all those years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One time, when I was talking to him, he said, ‘I spent $1,000 a month on water,’” O’Hair said. “I don’t know if it’s true. But he was very important to preserving some of the specialness of the grounds, for which I’m thankful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Renovating the conservatory\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1999, another neighborhood group formed — \u003ca href=\"https://www.sunnysideconservatory.org/about\">Friends of Sunnyside Conservatory\u003c/a>. They set ambitious fundraising goals and worked with San Francisco Rec and Park to execute a multimillion-dollar renovation of the building that would restore it to its original glory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the building was under renovation, yet another neighbor came forward with a piece of history to share. When the building and grounds were sold in 1974, and it looked like the old place might be demolished by Robert Anderson, this neighbor had saved the wooden spire from the top of the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside Conservatory contains a sign indicating that it is a city landmark in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He kept it in his garage for 30 years, bringing it out and offering it to the builders as they renovated. Unfortunately, by then it was rotting, but the builders made an exact replica and covered it in copper. That spire sits on top of the building to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a community-led effort, top to bottom,” O’Hair said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The conservatory has since become a symbol for Sunnyside residents. It was the first campaign that brought neighbors together, fighting for something that makes their corner of San Francisco special and unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco Rec and Park now maintains the building and grounds, but \u003ca href=\"https://sfrecpark.org/665/Sunnyside-Conservatory\">they do rent it out\u003c/a>. Sunnyside neighborhood groups get a bit of a deal, but there have been plenty of weddings, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’ve been listening to the show for a while you may have intuited by now, but San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park is one of my absolute favorite places. I love all its nooks and crannies, the unique playgrounds, those long undulating pathways. But I’d argue the crown jewel of the park is the Conservatory of Flowers, partly because of the incredible and rare plants housed inside…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>News Clip: \u003c/strong>The rare corpse flower at the Conservatory of flowers is now open to view and smell.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Like the corpse flower, which only blooms for 48 hours every 3-5 years! And stands more than 6 feet tall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Conservatory of Flowers is also renowned for its architecture. A Victorian glass building – delicate, intricate – topped with a stately domed roof. It’s like nothing else in the city! Or so I thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out San Francisco has \u003cem>another\u003c/em> conservatory across town near Glen Park. It’s much smaller, only a quarter the size, but still lovely. I’m talking about Sunnyside Conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Balmana: \u003c/strong>My name is Mary Balmana. I live in the Mission Terrace area of San Francisco, and I don’t know anything about it, but I’ve passed it my whole life, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mary drives by Sunnyside Conservatory on Monterey Boulevard often, but never sees anyone going in or out. She wants to know its history – and how such a curious building ended up in what is otherwise a very residential area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz is here to tell us all about it. Hi, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Hi Olivia\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Maybe you could start by just painting a picture of the conservatory as it looks now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The Sunnyside Conservatory is set back from the street a little ways and is surrounded by a lush garden with huge palm trees, ferns and beautiful flowering bushes. It kind of feels like a cloud forest right in the middle of a residential neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What about the building itself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The building is made of redwood and features a two story octagonal center that dominates the senses. Two levels of windows that let in beautiful amounts of light…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What kind of fabulous plants are inside? Anything to rival the corpse flower?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Sadly, this conservatory no longer has plants inside at all. It’s now used as an events space. But when it was first built in 1902, it was the pride of its owner – who was just the first of a line of quirky residents the property has had over its 100 or so years. Let’s meet some of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>It was built by an eccentric and unique man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Amy O’Hair runs the Sunnyside History Project and lives nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>He was an inventor, William Augustus Merralls, he moved here to Sunnyside when there was very little on Monterey Boulevard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Even though Sunnyside is part of San Francisco now, back then the area was rural. Picture a smattering of houses and dairy farms. Merralls bought a big house here in 1897 and then several adjoining plots of land over the next few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>He accumulated seven lots, and then built his conservatory in 1902. He collected exotic plants and he liked to have a place for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Merralls made his money engineering mining equipment — but his true heart’s desire was invention. Over the years he invented dozens of things, some useful stuff, and some less so. Amy actually met his great grandson, who had some of Merralls’ old papers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>I thought I’d show you some stuff. Things that belonged to William Merrill’s like his patents. So I have all the patents for things that he made. This is a stamp mill. That’s a thing that crushes rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Look at those seals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Yes, they’re very fancy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>This is a letter he wrote while he was in New York City raising money for the automobile starters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Will you read a little bit of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Darling, you should see the Merralls starter at work on that big engine. You would be tickled to pieces. It is a dandy. And when you come on for Thanksgiving, you shall be the first lady to ride in an automobile that has the only commercial, perfect self-starter in the world, and that one is a Merralls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>He’s like promoting himself to his wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>To his wife, for God’s sake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The thing is, Merralls probably had his hand in one too many projects. He had a tendency to move on before things were finished and he was sued a number of times. By the time of his death in 1914, he was having money problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mmm. Unfortunately, you can’t just create the thing, but you have to sell it too…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Yes, and unfortunately that meant that when he died, the bank repossessed the whole property, including the conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What happened to it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The house and its grounds sat empty for three years and then another couple bought it. The next in the line of curious owners…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>The name of this couple was Ernest and Angel Van Beck. They were very strange.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ernest Van Bech was essentially a scam artist. He made a boatload of money selling worthless mining bonds to people…basically swindling them out of their money. The district attorney even brought charges, but when the witnesses didn’t show up to testify, they had to let Ernest go. And he lived out his life on the property with the conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Ernest would not show his face. There were a lot of rumors about him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Kind of the Boo Radley of Sunnyside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> He really was. The neighborhood kids were all afraid of him. But after decades living in the house next to the conservatory he died in 1951. His wife, Angele, kept living there, but she needed money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>She slowly sold off all the property to a neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The neighbors were friends of hers. They built a house on the other side of the conservatory — the east wing of the building was actually in their backyard. At the time, that wasn’t a big deal because Angele and her friends basically shared the conservatory and its grounds like one big yard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But eventually Angele moved away and her friends sold their home – and they leave behind the conservatory, which now straddles two properties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this foreshadowing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This is foreshadowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll find out what happened after this quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, Katrina, you were telling us what happened to the conservatory after Angele Van Beck and her friends next door moved away and sold the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The bulk of the conservatory and its grounds ended up in the hands of a man named Robert Anderson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>It’s 1975 by now, and there’s a lot of local interest in the conservatory as a historic structure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>People who live nearby had grown attached to the conservatory. They view it as a symbol of the neighborhood. A group called the Sunnyside Neighborhood Association forms and they start researching the history of the conservatory in order to get it landmarked as a historic building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>They wanted to save it from demolition because in the 50s and 60s and 70s, along Monterey Boulevard, we’d had so many empty lots, and it was rezoned after the war, that apartment buildings were growing up all the way along it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The neighbors succeeded in getting the building landmarked, but that didn’t keep it safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>But then Robert Anderson decided he actually would build some apartment buildings and he got a permit to demolish the conservatory, which he attempted to do at the end of 1978. And it was only saved because of two people who had their eye on the conservatory. Greg Gaar is one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greg Garr: \u003c/strong>Well, I was riding my bicycle along Monterey Boulevard. I think I was going to City College at that time. And I passed by the Sunnyside Conservatory and I saw heavy equipment in there. And part of the building had been removed. And I said, what the heck? I mean, are they demolishing it? I knew it was a registered historic landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Greg Garr and other neighbors started frantically calling city hall and they got the demolition halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>When they were done, the glass was knocked out of most of the windows.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This seems like an impasse. Robert Anderson can’t knock the conservatory down and build anything new – but he owns it. So what happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, the city buys the land from him. But there wasn’t any money to renovate the building then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Sunnyside Neighborhood Association tried to get it renovated and they looked after it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>They scraped graffiti off the building and boarded up all the broken windows to keep rain out. But unfortunately the whole thing was falling into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At some point in the 1980s, the east wing of the conservatory – the part that crossed over onto another property – it gets knocked down, leaving the building looking kind of lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>And it is a loss, because it’s no longer, it’s whole, whole self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wait, after saving it from being knocked down by the developer…part of it was still demolished?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, sadly. Amy says the circumstances are a bit mysterious, but that eastern wing is in photos of the conservatory through early 1980 and then it’s just gone. If you go there now, there’s a fence right up against the main part of the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Sounds like these neighbors really had to be vigilant to keep this thing from being torn down completely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> You know, they did their best. And there was a man who lived behind the conservatory…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Whose name was Ted Kipping. And he was a professional botanist, arborist, and plant collector, and photographer, speaker. Very ambitious, very dedicated. He took care of the grounds in the 90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The conservatory becomes something of a pet project for him. A very expensive one…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>One time, when I was talking to him, he said, I spent $1,000 a month on water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> How does it turn into the beautiful building it is today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>A group called the Friends of Sunnyside Conservatory forms in 1999 and spend about 10 years raising money and getting San Francisco Rec and Park on board. They did a big multimillion dollar renovation in the 2000s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reopening video clip: \u003c/strong>We’re here at the Sunnyside’s Conservatory that’s re-opening and this has been a long fought community effort to make this happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a big party at the conservatory to celebrate its reopening in 2009. Then mayor Gavin Newsom was there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>In a hundred years they’ll be talking about, in 2009…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Everyone was so excited that this neighborhood gem had been restored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reopening video clip: \u003c/strong>Here’s the original spire. It was somewhere up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The conservatory has a spire?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Yes — the original 1902 building that William Merralls built had a redwood spire on top. And a neighbor kept that spire in his garage for 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>This man volunteered this finial, redwood finial from the original building and said, well, here it is. You know, you can put it back on the new building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And did they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, by then it was fairly rotten. So, instead they made an exact replica, covered it in copper and that’s what’s now on top of the current building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> A bit of a cherry on top, if you will. So now the neighborhood has this pretty special place for everyone to enjoy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Not only that, but working to preserve the conservatory brought the community together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this history with us, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. And if you haven’t been to the Sunnyside Conservatory, you should really check it out!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> One thing I love about the Bay Area is that most neighborhoods have little gems like this one. They’re usually not things people would go out of their way to visit…but they do make each little corner of this area special. If you’ve got a spot near you that you’ve always wondered about, head on over to bay curious dot org and submit a question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re interested to know more about Sunnyside, Amy O’Hair has a book called \u003cem>History Walks of Sunnyside\u003c/em> coming out very soon. So keep your eyes peeled for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve been enjoying the double dose of Bay Curious we’ve been putting out this month, consider making a donation to KQED to support our work. Every little bit helps, just head over to KQED dot or slash donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "The Eccentric Personalities Behind Sunnyside Conservatory, a 120-Year-Old Garden in San Francisco | KQED",
"description": "Built in 1902 to house an eccentric inventor’s rare plant collection, preserving this building in San Francisco has been a neighborhood labor of love.",
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"headline": "The Eccentric Personalities Behind Sunnyside Conservatory, a 120-Year-Old Garden in San Francisco",
"datePublished": "2026-03-02T03:00:33-08:00",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s \u003c/a>Sunnyside neighborhood, just west of Glen Park, isn’t actually very sunny. In fact, it’s one of the foggier places in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of its main thoroughfares, Monterey Boulevard, carries drivers west towards tonier places like St. Francis Wood, passing many houses and apartment buildings along the way. But slow down a little, and you might catch a glimpse of a building that feels out of the ordinary in this residential place — Sunnyside Conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Set back from the street and tucked behind a wrought iron gate, the octagonal redwood building has two stories of windows surrounded by a lush garden of towering palms, ferns and flowering bushes. It’s beautiful and old-world feeling, a unique Victorian gem on an otherwise busy street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Mary Balmana often uses Monterey Boulevard to get to her home in Mission Terrace. She’s seen the conservatory hundreds of times, but hasn’t noticed anyone going inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know anything about it, but I’ve passed it my whole life,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074410\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside resident and historian Amy O’Hair poses for a portrait at Sunnyside Conservatory in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, she wants answers. What is the conservatory doing here in Sunnyside, who owns it and could she rent it out?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An inventor’s oasis\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Sunnyside Conservatory was built by William Augustus Merralls, a British inventor and eccentric. He bought a house along what is now Monterey Boulevard in 1897, when the area was mostly rural. Land was cheap, so he also bought up seven lots around his house and then set about making the grounds his own private oasis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He collected exotic plants, and he liked to have a place for them,” said Amy O’Hair, Sunnyside resident,\u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/\"> local historian\u003c/a> and author of the forthcoming book, \u003cem>History Walks in Sunnyside\u003c/em>. She’s currently writing a book about the conservatory’s history.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Merralls made his money designing and patenting mining equipment. He had more than 20 different patents, mostly for machines that helped extract ever smaller amounts of gold from rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He did well, but whatever he got he spent on his projects,” O’Hair said. “He had a restless mind, always wanting to invent new things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of his inventions were practical, others less so. He invented an automobile starter, a refrigerator and a “deep breathing developer,” a contraption for his wife, Temperance Laura, who was fascinated by alternative medicine. The details of how it actually worked have been lost to time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1902, he built the conservatory, a building beautifully crafted out of redwood in Victorian style. In addition to collecting exotic plants, Merralls also loved astronomy. He built himself an observatory on the back of his house. And he loved luxury items; his house had two grand pianos and a private bowling alley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He apparently didn’t need to live amongst his peers,” O’Hair said. “He was a very independent-minded man, and he was happy out here in his own enclave with all of his toys in the house and all of those plants out here in the conservatory and a wife he loved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He and his wife, Temperance Laura, lived in Sunnyside, enjoying their house and its grounds until 1914, when Merralls tragically died in a train accident while visiting a friend in Alameda. By that point, he had sunk all his money into various pursuits that hadn’t paid off, and when he died, Temperance Laura couldn’t afford to keep living on their estate in Sunnyside. The bank repossessed the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Second act as swindler’s hideout\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The property sat empty and neglected for three years before another odd couple, Ernest and Angele Van Beckh, came along and \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2023/07/18/the-king-of-the-clairvoyants-the-man-who-bought-the-sunnyside-conservatory/\">bought it in 1919\u003c/a>. Ernest Van Beckh was a con man, a member of the \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2023/07/18/the-king-of-the-clairvoyants-the-man-who-bought-the-sunnyside-conservatory/\">“Big Five” \u003c/a>whose exploits selling worthless mining shares to unsuspecting people and stealing their money were splashed across the newspapers in 1916.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the district attorney brought charges against Van Beckh, he got off when witnesses the prosecution had lined up to testify “just kind of went away,” as Amy put it. One went back to Montana. Another decided not to press charges. And Ernest avoided jail time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074414\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074414\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED-1536x1030.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside Conservatory circa 1975, when it had fallen into disrepair. Here, the east wing still stands, but it was later knocked down. \u003ccite>(Greg Gaar/San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“They made millions of dollars in the 1910s,” O’Hair said. “And some of that money went towards buying this property. This was their hideout.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Van Beckhs would live here for decades. Ernest died in 1951, but Angele stayed on through the early ‘60s, although she too started to have money problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She slowly sold off all the property to a neighbor,” O’Hair said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The neighbors were friends who built their own house on the other side of the conservatory — what is now 234 Monterey Boulevard. While Angele was living there, the two families enjoyed the conservatory and its grounds as one shared yard. But when they moved away, the property lines became a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Saving the conservatory again and again\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1974, Angele’s friends sold their house at 234 Monterey Boulevard and the property with the conservatory on it to a man named Robert Anderson. He started delineating the different lots with an eye to \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2025/04/18/saving-sunnyside-conservatory/\">developing the property\u003c/a> further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the same time, neighbors started getting interested in preserving the conservatory as a historic landmark. The \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysideassociation.org/\">Sunnyside Neighborhood Association\u003c/a> had just formed, and its members started researching the conservatory’s history with a goal to get it landmarked by the city.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“They wanted to save it from demolition,” O’Hair said. After World War II, \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2025/12/07/sunnyside-upzoned/\">Sunnyside was rezoned \u003c/a>to allow for more apartment buildings, which started popping up along Monterey Boulevard throughout the 1950s, 60s and 70s. “And they didn’t want to see this property go for apartment buildings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neighbors were successful in getting the \u003ca href=\"https://default.sfplanning.org/Preservation/bulletins/HistPres_Bulletin_09.PDF\">conservatory landmarked in 1975\u003c/a>, which theoretically should have preserved it. However, the owner, Robert Anderson, still managed to get a permit to demolish it. Neighbors had no idea about his plan until they spotted construction equipment at work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was riding my bicycle along Monterey Boulevard,” neighbor \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v70K3B-inOg\">Greg Garr said in an interview with Amy O’Hair\u003c/a>. “I think I was going to City College at that time. And I passed by the Sunnyside Conservatory, and I saw heavy equipment in there. And part of the building had been removed. And I said, ‘What the heck? I mean, are they demolishing it?’ I knew it was a registered historic landmark.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called his representative and City Hall, clamoring to stop the demolition. Those efforts were successful, but the damage had been done. The structure was damaged, and almost all the windows had been knocked out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was an emergency now,” O’Hair said. “The city needed to buy the property. What good is a landmark if you don’t own the property under it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074238\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074238\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A stock certificate of William Merralls, who built Sunnyside Conservatory, is shown by Amy O’Hair at Sunnyside Conservatory in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1980, the city bought the land from Robert Anderson using the \u003ca href=\"https://generalplan.sfplanning.org/I3_Recreation_and_Open_Space.htm#:~:text=San%20Francisco%20values%20its%20recreation,the%20combination%20of%20the%20two.\">Open Space Fund\u003c/a>. And for many years after, the Sunnyside Neighborhood Association did its best to look after the building, but it fell into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All those years in the 90s when it had no glass, and you could climb right over [the fence], there was always graffiti and beer bottles,” O’Hair remembered. “And Rec and Park didn’t really take care of the grounds.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, it was another neighbor, \u003ca href=\"https://calhortsociety.org/2020/01/29/ted-kipping/\">Ted Kipping\u003c/a>, who tended the beautiful trees and plants William Merralls had planted all those years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One time, when I was talking to him, he said, ‘I spent $1,000 a month on water,’” O’Hair said. “I don’t know if it’s true. But he was very important to preserving some of the specialness of the grounds, for which I’m thankful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Renovating the conservatory\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1999, another neighborhood group formed — \u003ca href=\"https://www.sunnysideconservatory.org/about\">Friends of Sunnyside Conservatory\u003c/a>. They set ambitious fundraising goals and worked with San Francisco Rec and Park to execute a multimillion-dollar renovation of the building that would restore it to its original glory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the building was under renovation, yet another neighbor came forward with a piece of history to share. When the building and grounds were sold in 1974, and it looked like the old place might be demolished by Robert Anderson, this neighbor had saved the wooden spire from the top of the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside Conservatory contains a sign indicating that it is a city landmark in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He kept it in his garage for 30 years, bringing it out and offering it to the builders as they renovated. Unfortunately, by then it was rotting, but the builders made an exact replica and covered it in copper. That spire sits on top of the building to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a community-led effort, top to bottom,” O’Hair said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The conservatory has since become a symbol for Sunnyside residents. It was the first campaign that brought neighbors together, fighting for something that makes their corner of San Francisco special and unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco Rec and Park now maintains the building and grounds, but \u003ca href=\"https://sfrecpark.org/665/Sunnyside-Conservatory\">they do rent it out\u003c/a>. Sunnyside neighborhood groups get a bit of a deal, but there have been plenty of weddings, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’ve been listening to the show for a while you may have intuited by now, but San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park is one of my absolute favorite places. I love all its nooks and crannies, the unique playgrounds, those long undulating pathways. But I’d argue the crown jewel of the park is the Conservatory of Flowers, partly because of the incredible and rare plants housed inside…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>News Clip: \u003c/strong>The rare corpse flower at the Conservatory of flowers is now open to view and smell.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Like the corpse flower, which only blooms for 48 hours every 3-5 years! And stands more than 6 feet tall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Conservatory of Flowers is also renowned for its architecture. A Victorian glass building – delicate, intricate – topped with a stately domed roof. It’s like nothing else in the city! Or so I thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out San Francisco has \u003cem>another\u003c/em> conservatory across town near Glen Park. It’s much smaller, only a quarter the size, but still lovely. I’m talking about Sunnyside Conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Balmana: \u003c/strong>My name is Mary Balmana. I live in the Mission Terrace area of San Francisco, and I don’t know anything about it, but I’ve passed it my whole life, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mary drives by Sunnyside Conservatory on Monterey Boulevard often, but never sees anyone going in or out. She wants to know its history – and how such a curious building ended up in what is otherwise a very residential area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz is here to tell us all about it. Hi, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Hi Olivia\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Maybe you could start by just painting a picture of the conservatory as it looks now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The Sunnyside Conservatory is set back from the street a little ways and is surrounded by a lush garden with huge palm trees, ferns and beautiful flowering bushes. It kind of feels like a cloud forest right in the middle of a residential neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What about the building itself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The building is made of redwood and features a two story octagonal center that dominates the senses. Two levels of windows that let in beautiful amounts of light…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What kind of fabulous plants are inside? Anything to rival the corpse flower?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Sadly, this conservatory no longer has plants inside at all. It’s now used as an events space. But when it was first built in 1902, it was the pride of its owner – who was just the first of a line of quirky residents the property has had over its 100 or so years. Let’s meet some of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>It was built by an eccentric and unique man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Amy O’Hair runs the Sunnyside History Project and lives nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>He was an inventor, William Augustus Merralls, he moved here to Sunnyside when there was very little on Monterey Boulevard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Even though Sunnyside is part of San Francisco now, back then the area was rural. Picture a smattering of houses and dairy farms. Merralls bought a big house here in 1897 and then several adjoining plots of land over the next few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>He accumulated seven lots, and then built his conservatory in 1902. He collected exotic plants and he liked to have a place for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Merralls made his money engineering mining equipment — but his true heart’s desire was invention. Over the years he invented dozens of things, some useful stuff, and some less so. Amy actually met his great grandson, who had some of Merralls’ old papers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>I thought I’d show you some stuff. Things that belonged to William Merrill’s like his patents. So I have all the patents for things that he made. This is a stamp mill. That’s a thing that crushes rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Look at those seals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Yes, they’re very fancy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>This is a letter he wrote while he was in New York City raising money for the automobile starters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Will you read a little bit of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Darling, you should see the Merralls starter at work on that big engine. You would be tickled to pieces. It is a dandy. And when you come on for Thanksgiving, you shall be the first lady to ride in an automobile that has the only commercial, perfect self-starter in the world, and that one is a Merralls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>He’s like promoting himself to his wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>To his wife, for God’s sake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The thing is, Merralls probably had his hand in one too many projects. He had a tendency to move on before things were finished and he was sued a number of times. By the time of his death in 1914, he was having money problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mmm. Unfortunately, you can’t just create the thing, but you have to sell it too…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Yes, and unfortunately that meant that when he died, the bank repossessed the whole property, including the conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What happened to it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The house and its grounds sat empty for three years and then another couple bought it. The next in the line of curious owners…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>The name of this couple was Ernest and Angel Van Beck. They were very strange.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ernest Van Bech was essentially a scam artist. He made a boatload of money selling worthless mining bonds to people…basically swindling them out of their money. The district attorney even brought charges, but when the witnesses didn’t show up to testify, they had to let Ernest go. And he lived out his life on the property with the conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Ernest would not show his face. There were a lot of rumors about him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Kind of the Boo Radley of Sunnyside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> He really was. The neighborhood kids were all afraid of him. But after decades living in the house next to the conservatory he died in 1951. His wife, Angele, kept living there, but she needed money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>She slowly sold off all the property to a neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The neighbors were friends of hers. They built a house on the other side of the conservatory — the east wing of the building was actually in their backyard. At the time, that wasn’t a big deal because Angele and her friends basically shared the conservatory and its grounds like one big yard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But eventually Angele moved away and her friends sold their home – and they leave behind the conservatory, which now straddles two properties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this foreshadowing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This is foreshadowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll find out what happened after this quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, Katrina, you were telling us what happened to the conservatory after Angele Van Beck and her friends next door moved away and sold the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The bulk of the conservatory and its grounds ended up in the hands of a man named Robert Anderson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>It’s 1975 by now, and there’s a lot of local interest in the conservatory as a historic structure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>People who live nearby had grown attached to the conservatory. They view it as a symbol of the neighborhood. A group called the Sunnyside Neighborhood Association forms and they start researching the history of the conservatory in order to get it landmarked as a historic building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>They wanted to save it from demolition because in the 50s and 60s and 70s, along Monterey Boulevard, we’d had so many empty lots, and it was rezoned after the war, that apartment buildings were growing up all the way along it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The neighbors succeeded in getting the building landmarked, but that didn’t keep it safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>But then Robert Anderson decided he actually would build some apartment buildings and he got a permit to demolish the conservatory, which he attempted to do at the end of 1978. And it was only saved because of two people who had their eye on the conservatory. Greg Gaar is one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greg Garr: \u003c/strong>Well, I was riding my bicycle along Monterey Boulevard. I think I was going to City College at that time. And I passed by the Sunnyside Conservatory and I saw heavy equipment in there. And part of the building had been removed. And I said, what the heck? I mean, are they demolishing it? I knew it was a registered historic landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Greg Garr and other neighbors started frantically calling city hall and they got the demolition halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>When they were done, the glass was knocked out of most of the windows.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This seems like an impasse. Robert Anderson can’t knock the conservatory down and build anything new – but he owns it. So what happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, the city buys the land from him. But there wasn’t any money to renovate the building then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Sunnyside Neighborhood Association tried to get it renovated and they looked after it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>They scraped graffiti off the building and boarded up all the broken windows to keep rain out. But unfortunately the whole thing was falling into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At some point in the 1980s, the east wing of the conservatory – the part that crossed over onto another property – it gets knocked down, leaving the building looking kind of lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>And it is a loss, because it’s no longer, it’s whole, whole self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wait, after saving it from being knocked down by the developer…part of it was still demolished?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, sadly. Amy says the circumstances are a bit mysterious, but that eastern wing is in photos of the conservatory through early 1980 and then it’s just gone. If you go there now, there’s a fence right up against the main part of the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Sounds like these neighbors really had to be vigilant to keep this thing from being torn down completely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> You know, they did their best. And there was a man who lived behind the conservatory…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Whose name was Ted Kipping. And he was a professional botanist, arborist, and plant collector, and photographer, speaker. Very ambitious, very dedicated. He took care of the grounds in the 90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The conservatory becomes something of a pet project for him. A very expensive one…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>One time, when I was talking to him, he said, I spent $1,000 a month on water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> How does it turn into the beautiful building it is today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>A group called the Friends of Sunnyside Conservatory forms in 1999 and spend about 10 years raising money and getting San Francisco Rec and Park on board. They did a big multimillion dollar renovation in the 2000s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reopening video clip: \u003c/strong>We’re here at the Sunnyside’s Conservatory that’s re-opening and this has been a long fought community effort to make this happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a big party at the conservatory to celebrate its reopening in 2009. Then mayor Gavin Newsom was there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>In a hundred years they’ll be talking about, in 2009…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Everyone was so excited that this neighborhood gem had been restored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reopening video clip: \u003c/strong>Here’s the original spire. It was somewhere up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The conservatory has a spire?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Yes — the original 1902 building that William Merralls built had a redwood spire on top. And a neighbor kept that spire in his garage for 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>This man volunteered this finial, redwood finial from the original building and said, well, here it is. You know, you can put it back on the new building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And did they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, by then it was fairly rotten. So, instead they made an exact replica, covered it in copper and that’s what’s now on top of the current building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> A bit of a cherry on top, if you will. So now the neighborhood has this pretty special place for everyone to enjoy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Not only that, but working to preserve the conservatory brought the community together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this history with us, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. And if you haven’t been to the Sunnyside Conservatory, you should really check it out!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> One thing I love about the Bay Area is that most neighborhoods have little gems like this one. They’re usually not things people would go out of their way to visit…but they do make each little corner of this area special. If you’ve got a spot near you that you’ve always wondered about, head on over to bay curious dot org and submit a question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re interested to know more about Sunnyside, Amy O’Hair has a book called \u003cem>History Walks of Sunnyside\u003c/em> coming out very soon. So keep your eyes peeled for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve been enjoying the double dose of Bay Curious we’ve been putting out this month, consider making a donation to KQED to support our work. Every little bit helps, just head over to KQED dot or slash donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "is-it-crow-maggedon-why-crows-are-flocking-to-bay-area-cities-each-winter",
"title": "Is It Crow-maggedon? Why Crows Are Flocking to Bay Area Cities Each Winter",
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"headTitle": "Is It Crow-maggedon? Why Crows Are Flocking to Bay Area Cities Each Winter | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around sunset on winter evenings, hordes of crows choke the night sky over the Bay Area, often flocking to the same favorite spots night after night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Matteo Clark-Hurley asked: “Is there a crow-maggedon happening in downtown areas of Oakland and San Francisco? Hundreds come out at dusk. Sections of streets with trees are covered in bird poop. Are there more crows now?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Clark-Hurley’s not the only one — many Bay Curious fans have written to ask why there are so many crows, where they’re going and why they’ve chosen to congregate in certain locations in Oakland and San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The short answer is yes, there are more crows now. The crow population in the Bay Area has been on a steady increase since about 1975, but really exploded after 2000 or so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every December, \u003ca href=\"https://goldengatebirdalliance.org/birding-resources/birding-information/christmas-bird-counts/\">volunteers \u003c/a>head out on one particular day and count as many birds as they can to get an approximation of the winter population. In 2025, populations in San Francisco and Oakland both doubled. Volunteers counted \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/crow-populations-san-francisco-21316117.php\">more than 3,000 crows in San Francisco alone\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12073969\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2090px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12073969\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047.jpg\" alt=\"Three black birds perch on a concrete wall looking at the ocean.\" width=\"2090\" height=\"1434\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047.jpg 2090w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047-2000x1372.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047-1536x1054.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047-2048x1405.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2090px) 100vw, 2090px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Three crows at perch on a wall at Ocean Beach. Crows used to live more rurally, but have increasingly been flocking to urban areas where food is plentiful. \u003ccite>(Auseklis/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There’s been basically logarithmic growth, which is sort of what you would expect in an unchecked system,” said Glenn Phillips, executive director of the \u003ca href=\"https://goldengatebirdalliance.org/\">Golden Gate Bird Alliance\u003c/a>, which runs the count.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why so many more crows, you ask? Well, many bird experts think that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11800958/crows-are-crowding-your-bay-area-skies-why-2\">their range has shifted\u003c/a>. Crows used to be found in more rural areas, where they could have a damaging effect on crops. Even though it’s illegal to kill crows — the Migratory Bird Treaty Act protects them — farmers can get a special permit to hunt them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Crows are not only very smart, they have amazing memory,” Phillips said. “So crows learn who is trouble … and they can share that information with their peers and their offspring.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Crows have learned to stay away from rural areas where they’re being hunted and have instead discovered that cities are \u003cem>great\u003c/em> places to find food. Because crows will eat almost anything — from bugs to roadkill, baby birds and cherries — the backyards and streets of the Bay Area offer abundant food for them. They also don’t have many predators, which is why their numbers have grown so steadily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are susceptible to some diseases, though.[aside postID=news_12072333 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/Milan-Cortina-Olympics-cropped-2000x1125.jpg']“All the crows and their relatives are really susceptible to West Nile,” Phillips said. “The crow populations have some years where they crash and other years when they keep booming.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, while we \u003cem>are\u003c/em> seeing more crows in the Bay Area, overall, the crow population is not dramatically increasing in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, onto the dramatic roosting behavior people have noticed in December, January and February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a seasonal phenomenon that crows gather in large roosts during the winter,” Phillips said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists believe it happens for two reasons. First, there is protection in numbers. Any bigger bird that wants to attack a crow will be overwhelmed by its brethren. Second, crows gather and share information about where to find food, which can be harder to forage in the wintertime. And, after they gather and share information, they sleep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of us think of birds and nests, assuming the nest is a bird’s home. But Phillips said that’s a common misperception.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11752335\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/06/47607919412_9471ea2cf2_o-e1559676823145.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11752335\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/06/47607919412_9471ea2cf2_o-e1559676823145.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1246\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A power trio of crows hanging out in Berkeley. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The nest is only used during the breeding season for the vast majority of birds,” he said. “They don’t use it when they’re not raising their young. It’s the nursery, not the home. And so most birds sleep in trees, on cliffs, on buildings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those big gatherings of crows people have seen near Lake Merritt in Oakland or by the East Cut in San Francisco, or even out by San Francisco International Airport, are where the crows roost and sleep for the night in winter. They’re usually looking for a place with good perches, that has vantage points to spot predators and that’s protected from wind and rain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You could almost set your watch by it,” Phillips said. “They’re really consistent when they come.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Always at sunset, no matter when sunset is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Kevin Branch has another question we hear a lot about crows: “There are so many crows around nowadays. Are they pushing out the old normal birds that I grew up with — the bluejays, the mockingbirds, the redwing blackbird?”[aside postID=news_12071437 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250919-UKRAINIANFARM_01564_TV-KQED.jpg']Crows are opportunistic eaters and there’s no doubt that they will raid nests of other birds and eat their young. But they don’t target other birds intentionally. Phillips said so far, there’s no evidence that the increased number of crows is responsible for declines in other species. Crows also aren’t the only critters that raid nests — squirrels, gulls and cats do a lot of damage too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s part of the cycle,” Phillips said. He often reminds folks worried about songbirds that certain species adapt to being prey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[For example], robins can lay six to eight eggs and they can have two or three clutches a year. So if every robin grew up to be an adult, we would be up to our eyeballs in robins.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Crows also behave differently in the spring and summer when it’s time to breed. Rather than large roosts, they’ll split into smaller groups, dividing up territory so that each bird can feed its young. Come springtime, you’ll be far less likely to see a horde of crows darkening the sky at sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Have more questions about why the crow population has increased and what scientists say we should do about it? Check out this \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11800958/crows-are-crowding-your-bay-area-skies-why-2\">excellent feature from KQED’s Dan Brekke\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious in your feed on a Monday? It’s true. We’re dropping two episodes each week for a while — and experimenting with some new things along the way. Let us know what you think! Our email is \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now on to the episode…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of crows\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chances are good, that is a familiar sound.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crow sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those would be “Corvus brachyrhynchos” aka crows.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our often \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">unwanted\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> urban neighbors. Crows are thought to be loud, pesky, aggressive — even sinister. No matter what you think of them, they’re hard not to notice. They really demand our attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious and recently several listeners have written to us observing there’s a “crow-maggedon” happening in downtown Oakland and San Francisco. Listeners are seeing huge flocks of crows flying across the sky around sunset, congregating in the same locations night after night after night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Glenn Phillips: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a seasonal phenomenon that crows gather in large roosts during the winter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Glenn Phillips is the executive director of the Golden Gate Bird Alliance. They count the crows every winter. The most recent count happened in December 2025 and in Oakland and San Francisco, the crow population basically doubled from the year before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Glenn Phillips: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One reason for roosting in large numbers is that there’s safety in numbers. Any predator that would be wanting to take out a crow is gonna have to deal with not just one crow but thousands.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But also, crows are social animals. They share information about where to find food when they gather to sleep at night. And they certainly have some favorite places to sleep.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re looking for good places to perch, with views of predators, shelter from wind and rain…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A place they can let their metaphorical hair down – or, in a crow’s world, let their claws tighten.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Glenn Phillips: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you relax your hand, it’s loose. When a bird relaxes its claw, it is firm and tight. So that they actually have to actively open their feet in order to let go of something. So when they’re sleeping, they aren’t gonna fall off because that grip is tight.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Pretty wild! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that answers some of your questions about crows. But for the rest of today’s episode we’ll focus on this one sent in from San Mateo listener Kevin Branch in 2019. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kevin Branch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There are so many crows around nowadays. Are they pushing out the old normal birds that I grew up with — the bluejays, the mockingbirds, the redwing blackbird — the birds I used to grow up listening to in the morning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Kevin also wanted to know if there\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">is a plan to,\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> ahem,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> reduce their populations. We asked KQED’s Dan Brekke, who has a fascination with just about everything including the natural world, to take a stab at answering them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Dan, what have you got for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s just say Kevin isn’t imagining things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of birds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I visited him at work — a theatrical rigging company down in Redwood City —\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and he says it’s the same thing every day — crows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kevin Branch: I see ‘em in the morning, I see ‘em in the afternoon, I see ‘em up in trees, I see ‘em on top of buildings. They’re everywhere. I kind of feel like the crow has taken over big time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And after hearing all those crows, Kevin has a pretty good crow caw himself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kevin Branch:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> CAW CAW!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kevin’s right — we’re seeing more crows these days. How many more? The numbers are surprising. I spoke with Bob Lewis, who helps run the Golden Gate Audubon Society’s Annual Christmas Bird Count. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, I just took a look at the count today, and starting with 2000, year 2000, there were 167 crows in our circle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That ‘circle’ covers Oakland and a large part of the East Bay shoreline and hills. Around Christmastime, 300 volunteers canvas the area and tally the birds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s the biggest count in the U.S. Actually, it’s the biggest count in the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, we started in 2000 with 167 crows. And since then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 2002, there were 250, it went up significantly. In 2005 there were 400. At 2010, there was over a thousand. 2015 almost fifteen hundred. And in 2018, there were almost twenty-five hundred crows.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From 167 crows to twenty-five hundred in less than 20 years. That’s fifteen times as many!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not everywhere in the Bay Area has seen that kind of spike. For instance, South Bay crow populations have fallen in the Christmas Bird Count over the last decade, apparently because of a spike in West Nile virus that killed many of the birds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But John Marzluff, a University of Washington wildlife biologist, says the pattern of increasing crow populations is a familiar one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s a common trend for a lot of corvids across the western U.S., for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That word he said is “corvids.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s a family of birds that includes crows and ravens — another species whose Bay Area population has soared in recent decades. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> OK, so we clearly have more crows, at least in most parts of the Bay Area. Kevin also wanted to know why?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The people who watch the birds point to an equation with two major parts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first part has to do with where crows are not very welcome. Here’s Bob Lewis again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Lewis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One argument, which may be true, is that crows are smart birds, and crows have historically inhabited the countryside. Farmers put up scarecrows and crows eat corn. But in the country, crows get shot, too, and crows have perhaps discovered in the cities and towns that it’s a much safer place to be.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of a hunting video sneak up\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s sound from one of the many, many crow hunt videos you can find online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t really blame crows for feeling like they’re not wanted out there in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shotgun sound in the clear\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One hundred years ago this year a company in the ammunition industry launched a “national crow shoot,” ostensibly to get rid of a threat to crops and other birds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And this wasn’t just a “country activity.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park employed a hunter — usually a city cop — to shoot crows and other unwanted animals, like jays and coyotes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crow shoot with hunter voices: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Take him,” (laughter) “I think you hit him that one.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And here in California, crows are fair game in most rural areas from December 1st to the beginning of April. In 2015, California hunters reported killing about 35,000 crows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hunting video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Nice! There you go!”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But unfriendly humans are just one factor that has led to more crows becoming city dwellers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I think it’s kind of simple myself. Basically, we’ve provided more food for them. Now, the reasons for that may be more complex, because it includes things like garbage, like fast-food restaurant waste, like road kill, so there are a lot of ways we provide them food. But that’s the bottom line. That’s why they’re more abundant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But haven’t we city dwellers have always been pretty messy. Look at the giant open garbage dumps that used to be on the edge of every big city. If garbage is attracting crows — where were they before?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You don’t have to have a dump. I mean, I think actually in terms of territoriality and increasing the breeding population, it’s better to have food more uniformly distributed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our urbanized area is much, much larger than it used to be. And we’re providing rich, dependable sources of food — from lawns to leftovers. More food allows crow populations to become more dense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They only defend enough space that’s necessary to get enough food to raise their young and survive. So as more food is available, they can live in tighter and tighter quarters and you can fit more of them into the place.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When we return, we get to the bloody truth. Are these crows killing other birds? Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So now we know that we do have more crows, and we have some ideas about why. The next question is: Are they killing other species of birds? Like those songbirds Kevin remembers?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Songbird sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One of the “crow people” I talked to is named Kaeli Swift, a wildlife scientist who has done lots of research on crows.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She said there are limited instances where crows — abetted by humans, typically — can pose an unusual threat to endangered species like snowy plovers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaeli Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> But your standard suburban backyard like L.A. or Seattle or New York or anywhere else in the country — not so much. Most people that contact me feeling like crows wiped away all of the birds in their neighborhood — and just have this perception that if you see a flock of crows it means none of your songbirds aren’t going to reproduce, that everything is doomed — the science just does not back that up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So research does not show that crows are remorseless killers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if there are in fact fewer songbirds than when Kevin grew up, it could be for many reasons — loss of habitat, those pesky squirrels or even our domestic cats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Swift points to a long list of the birds’ winning qualities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaeli Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There’s a lot of qualities that I don’t think you can help but find really attractive — like their ability to learn our faces and be pretty excited to see us when you’ve built up a positive relationship with them by feeding them, for example. They play, so you can watch them play games, particularly the young birds. And they’re just kind of charismatic and goofy in the way that a dog with a really strong personality is. For me, crows have the same sort of quality where if you watch them you just see them do all these things that are so interesting that you just kind of can’t help falling in love with them if you just open yourself up to that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They sound like humans.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Kaeli Swift says many of our problems with crows may stem from how much we share in common with them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaeli Swift: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re clever, so they’re able to outsmart some of the ways we try to keep them out of our garbage or out of our property. They are social, so they are really noisy. They are protective parents, so they can be aggressive around their babies when they feel like they’re being a threat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I keep coming back to this thing John Marzluff said, that it’s important to remember crows are “sentient beings,” like us, and that we ought to learn to use our big human brains to discover and address the problems we have with a growing crow population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I do end every one of my talks about crows with a slide that’s like, ‘OK, these things can get under our skin. Why? And what should we do?’ And my take-home is that we should celebrate them for being successful, and if we need to control them in places, we need to think hard about it. Like they think about how to live with us, we need to think about how to live with them and come up with strategies that will have meaningful effects on their populations — not just kill a bunch of them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Things like better managing our waste and being faster about removing roadkill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> But mostly, it sounds like we need to just learn to co-exist with crows. And see the good in them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Exactly. While I was doing research for this story I came across a poetry collection about crows.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sounds good. We will listen to one of those poems on the way out. But first, thank you — reporter Dan Brekke — for your reporting this week.\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You’re welcome\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And also a big thanks to our question asker, Kevin Branch. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Kevin Branch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Katie McMurran, Katrina Schwartz and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks this week to Pauline Bartolone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And now the poem we promised you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha reads “Early Morning Crow” by Jim Natal: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crows have no shame. They caw at 6 a.m., \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">expect a response from the windows reflecting\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">overcast skies, wait for an echo\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to return across the canyon, for the bottle \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to wash up on shore, the telephone\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to ring, the empty half of the bed to fill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You cannot throw\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a boot at them like sex-struck cartoon cats\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">yowling backlit by the moon, cannot\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">shoo them like pie-faced pasture cows ruminating\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">with the intensity of low-watt bulbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The crows wake you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">too early. And there you are, an overdue \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">bill, over-ripe melon, alone with your thoughts sluicing\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">back through the gates you had to lower by hand\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the night before, cranking rusty cogs and wheels\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">so you could get some sleep.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bed floods\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and you rise, afloat with black wings spread\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">like oil upon the surface, a near-fatality\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the cold almost got, wet through and hearing \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a solitary crow that croaks: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is anybody there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is anybody there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">then flies away before you can form \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a suitable answer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Have you seen the huge gatherings of crows near Oakland’s Lake Merritt or in downtown San Francisco? There’s an explanation for their behavior.",
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"title": "Is It Crow-maggedon? Why Crows Are Flocking to Bay Area Cities Each Winter | KQED",
"description": "Have you seen the huge gatherings of crows near Oakland’s Lake Merritt or in downtown San Francisco? There’s an explanation for their behavior.",
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"headline": "Is It Crow-maggedon? Why Crows Are Flocking to Bay Area Cities Each Winter",
"datePublished": "2026-02-09T03:00:12-08:00",
"dateModified": "2026-02-19T16:55:31-08:00",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around sunset on winter evenings, hordes of crows choke the night sky over the Bay Area, often flocking to the same favorite spots night after night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Matteo Clark-Hurley asked: “Is there a crow-maggedon happening in downtown areas of Oakland and San Francisco? Hundreds come out at dusk. Sections of streets with trees are covered in bird poop. Are there more crows now?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Clark-Hurley’s not the only one — many Bay Curious fans have written to ask why there are so many crows, where they’re going and why they’ve chosen to congregate in certain locations in Oakland and San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The short answer is yes, there are more crows now. The crow population in the Bay Area has been on a steady increase since about 1975, but really exploded after 2000 or so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every December, \u003ca href=\"https://goldengatebirdalliance.org/birding-resources/birding-information/christmas-bird-counts/\">volunteers \u003c/a>head out on one particular day and count as many birds as they can to get an approximation of the winter population. In 2025, populations in San Francisco and Oakland both doubled. Volunteers counted \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/crow-populations-san-francisco-21316117.php\">more than 3,000 crows in San Francisco alone\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12073969\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2090px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12073969\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047.jpg\" alt=\"Three black birds perch on a concrete wall looking at the ocean.\" width=\"2090\" height=\"1434\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047.jpg 2090w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047-2000x1372.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047-1536x1054.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/iStock-1223536047-2048x1405.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2090px) 100vw, 2090px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Three crows at perch on a wall at Ocean Beach. Crows used to live more rurally, but have increasingly been flocking to urban areas where food is plentiful. \u003ccite>(Auseklis/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There’s been basically logarithmic growth, which is sort of what you would expect in an unchecked system,” said Glenn Phillips, executive director of the \u003ca href=\"https://goldengatebirdalliance.org/\">Golden Gate Bird Alliance\u003c/a>, which runs the count.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why so many more crows, you ask? Well, many bird experts think that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11800958/crows-are-crowding-your-bay-area-skies-why-2\">their range has shifted\u003c/a>. Crows used to be found in more rural areas, where they could have a damaging effect on crops. Even though it’s illegal to kill crows — the Migratory Bird Treaty Act protects them — farmers can get a special permit to hunt them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Crows are not only very smart, they have amazing memory,” Phillips said. “So crows learn who is trouble … and they can share that information with their peers and their offspring.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Crows have learned to stay away from rural areas where they’re being hunted and have instead discovered that cities are \u003cem>great\u003c/em> places to find food. Because crows will eat almost anything — from bugs to roadkill, baby birds and cherries — the backyards and streets of the Bay Area offer abundant food for them. They also don’t have many predators, which is why their numbers have grown so steadily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are susceptible to some diseases, though.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“All the crows and their relatives are really susceptible to West Nile,” Phillips said. “The crow populations have some years where they crash and other years when they keep booming.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, while we \u003cem>are\u003c/em> seeing more crows in the Bay Area, overall, the crow population is not dramatically increasing in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, onto the dramatic roosting behavior people have noticed in December, January and February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a seasonal phenomenon that crows gather in large roosts during the winter,” Phillips said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists believe it happens for two reasons. First, there is protection in numbers. Any bigger bird that wants to attack a crow will be overwhelmed by its brethren. Second, crows gather and share information about where to find food, which can be harder to forage in the wintertime. And, after they gather and share information, they sleep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of us think of birds and nests, assuming the nest is a bird’s home. But Phillips said that’s a common misperception.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11752335\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/06/47607919412_9471ea2cf2_o-e1559676823145.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11752335\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/06/47607919412_9471ea2cf2_o-e1559676823145.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1246\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A power trio of crows hanging out in Berkeley. \u003ccite>(Dan Brekke/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The nest is only used during the breeding season for the vast majority of birds,” he said. “They don’t use it when they’re not raising their young. It’s the nursery, not the home. And so most birds sleep in trees, on cliffs, on buildings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those big gatherings of crows people have seen near Lake Merritt in Oakland or by the East Cut in San Francisco, or even out by San Francisco International Airport, are where the crows roost and sleep for the night in winter. They’re usually looking for a place with good perches, that has vantage points to spot predators and that’s protected from wind and rain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You could almost set your watch by it,” Phillips said. “They’re really consistent when they come.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Always at sunset, no matter when sunset is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Kevin Branch has another question we hear a lot about crows: “There are so many crows around nowadays. Are they pushing out the old normal birds that I grew up with — the bluejays, the mockingbirds, the redwing blackbird?”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Crows are opportunistic eaters and there’s no doubt that they will raid nests of other birds and eat their young. But they don’t target other birds intentionally. Phillips said so far, there’s no evidence that the increased number of crows is responsible for declines in other species. Crows also aren’t the only critters that raid nests — squirrels, gulls and cats do a lot of damage too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s part of the cycle,” Phillips said. He often reminds folks worried about songbirds that certain species adapt to being prey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[For example], robins can lay six to eight eggs and they can have two or three clutches a year. So if every robin grew up to be an adult, we would be up to our eyeballs in robins.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Crows also behave differently in the spring and summer when it’s time to breed. Rather than large roosts, they’ll split into smaller groups, dividing up territory so that each bird can feed its young. Come springtime, you’ll be far less likely to see a horde of crows darkening the sky at sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Have more questions about why the crow population has increased and what scientists say we should do about it? Check out this \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11800958/crows-are-crowding-your-bay-area-skies-why-2\">excellent feature from KQED’s Dan Brekke\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious in your feed on a Monday? It’s true. We’re dropping two episodes each week for a while — and experimenting with some new things along the way. Let us know what you think! Our email is \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now on to the episode…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of crows\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chances are good, that is a familiar sound.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crow sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those would be “Corvus brachyrhynchos” aka crows.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our often \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">unwanted\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> urban neighbors. Crows are thought to be loud, pesky, aggressive — even sinister. No matter what you think of them, they’re hard not to notice. They really demand our attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious and recently several listeners have written to us observing there’s a “crow-maggedon” happening in downtown Oakland and San Francisco. Listeners are seeing huge flocks of crows flying across the sky around sunset, congregating in the same locations night after night after night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Glenn Phillips: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a seasonal phenomenon that crows gather in large roosts during the winter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Glenn Phillips is the executive director of the Golden Gate Bird Alliance. They count the crows every winter. The most recent count happened in December 2025 and in Oakland and San Francisco, the crow population basically doubled from the year before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Glenn Phillips: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One reason for roosting in large numbers is that there’s safety in numbers. Any predator that would be wanting to take out a crow is gonna have to deal with not just one crow but thousands.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But also, crows are social animals. They share information about where to find food when they gather to sleep at night. And they certainly have some favorite places to sleep.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re looking for good places to perch, with views of predators, shelter from wind and rain…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A place they can let their metaphorical hair down – or, in a crow’s world, let their claws tighten.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Glenn Phillips: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you relax your hand, it’s loose. When a bird relaxes its claw, it is firm and tight. So that they actually have to actively open their feet in order to let go of something. So when they’re sleeping, they aren’t gonna fall off because that grip is tight.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Pretty wild! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that answers some of your questions about crows. But for the rest of today’s episode we’ll focus on this one sent in from San Mateo listener Kevin Branch in 2019. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kevin Branch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There are so many crows around nowadays. Are they pushing out the old normal birds that I grew up with — the bluejays, the mockingbirds, the redwing blackbird — the birds I used to grow up listening to in the morning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Kevin also wanted to know if there\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">is a plan to,\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> ahem,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> reduce their populations. We asked KQED’s Dan Brekke, who has a fascination with just about everything including the natural world, to take a stab at answering them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Dan, what have you got for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s just say Kevin isn’t imagining things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of birds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I visited him at work — a theatrical rigging company down in Redwood City —\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and he says it’s the same thing every day — crows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kevin Branch: I see ‘em in the morning, I see ‘em in the afternoon, I see ‘em up in trees, I see ‘em on top of buildings. They’re everywhere. I kind of feel like the crow has taken over big time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And after hearing all those crows, Kevin has a pretty good crow caw himself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kevin Branch:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> CAW CAW!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kevin’s right — we’re seeing more crows these days. How many more? The numbers are surprising. I spoke with Bob Lewis, who helps run the Golden Gate Audubon Society’s Annual Christmas Bird Count. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, I just took a look at the count today, and starting with 2000, year 2000, there were 167 crows in our circle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That ‘circle’ covers Oakland and a large part of the East Bay shoreline and hills. Around Christmastime, 300 volunteers canvas the area and tally the birds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s the biggest count in the U.S. Actually, it’s the biggest count in the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, we started in 2000 with 167 crows. And since then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 2002, there were 250, it went up significantly. In 2005 there were 400. At 2010, there was over a thousand. 2015 almost fifteen hundred. And in 2018, there were almost twenty-five hundred crows.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From 167 crows to twenty-five hundred in less than 20 years. That’s fifteen times as many!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not everywhere in the Bay Area has seen that kind of spike. For instance, South Bay crow populations have fallen in the Christmas Bird Count over the last decade, apparently because of a spike in West Nile virus that killed many of the birds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But John Marzluff, a University of Washington wildlife biologist, says the pattern of increasing crow populations is a familiar one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s a common trend for a lot of corvids across the western U.S., for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That word he said is “corvids.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s a family of birds that includes crows and ravens — another species whose Bay Area population has soared in recent decades. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> OK, so we clearly have more crows, at least in most parts of the Bay Area. Kevin also wanted to know why?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The people who watch the birds point to an equation with two major parts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first part has to do with where crows are not very welcome. Here’s Bob Lewis again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Lewis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One argument, which may be true, is that crows are smart birds, and crows have historically inhabited the countryside. Farmers put up scarecrows and crows eat corn. But in the country, crows get shot, too, and crows have perhaps discovered in the cities and towns that it’s a much safer place to be.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of a hunting video sneak up\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s sound from one of the many, many crow hunt videos you can find online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t really blame crows for feeling like they’re not wanted out there in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shotgun sound in the clear\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One hundred years ago this year a company in the ammunition industry launched a “national crow shoot,” ostensibly to get rid of a threat to crops and other birds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And this wasn’t just a “country activity.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park employed a hunter — usually a city cop — to shoot crows and other unwanted animals, like jays and coyotes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crow shoot with hunter voices: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Take him,” (laughter) “I think you hit him that one.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And here in California, crows are fair game in most rural areas from December 1st to the beginning of April. In 2015, California hunters reported killing about 35,000 crows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hunting video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Nice! There you go!”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But unfriendly humans are just one factor that has led to more crows becoming city dwellers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I think it’s kind of simple myself. Basically, we’ve provided more food for them. Now, the reasons for that may be more complex, because it includes things like garbage, like fast-food restaurant waste, like road kill, so there are a lot of ways we provide them food. But that’s the bottom line. That’s why they’re more abundant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But haven’t we city dwellers have always been pretty messy. Look at the giant open garbage dumps that used to be on the edge of every big city. If garbage is attracting crows — where were they before?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You don’t have to have a dump. I mean, I think actually in terms of territoriality and increasing the breeding population, it’s better to have food more uniformly distributed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our urbanized area is much, much larger than it used to be. And we’re providing rich, dependable sources of food — from lawns to leftovers. More food allows crow populations to become more dense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They only defend enough space that’s necessary to get enough food to raise their young and survive. So as more food is available, they can live in tighter and tighter quarters and you can fit more of them into the place.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When we return, we get to the bloody truth. Are these crows killing other birds? Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So now we know that we do have more crows, and we have some ideas about why. The next question is: Are they killing other species of birds? Like those songbirds Kevin remembers?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Songbird sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One of the “crow people” I talked to is named Kaeli Swift, a wildlife scientist who has done lots of research on crows.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She said there are limited instances where crows — abetted by humans, typically — can pose an unusual threat to endangered species like snowy plovers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaeli Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> But your standard suburban backyard like L.A. or Seattle or New York or anywhere else in the country — not so much. Most people that contact me feeling like crows wiped away all of the birds in their neighborhood — and just have this perception that if you see a flock of crows it means none of your songbirds aren’t going to reproduce, that everything is doomed — the science just does not back that up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So research does not show that crows are remorseless killers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if there are in fact fewer songbirds than when Kevin grew up, it could be for many reasons — loss of habitat, those pesky squirrels or even our domestic cats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Swift points to a long list of the birds’ winning qualities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaeli Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There’s a lot of qualities that I don’t think you can help but find really attractive — like their ability to learn our faces and be pretty excited to see us when you’ve built up a positive relationship with them by feeding them, for example. They play, so you can watch them play games, particularly the young birds. And they’re just kind of charismatic and goofy in the way that a dog with a really strong personality is. For me, crows have the same sort of quality where if you watch them you just see them do all these things that are so interesting that you just kind of can’t help falling in love with them if you just open yourself up to that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They sound like humans.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Kaeli Swift says many of our problems with crows may stem from how much we share in common with them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaeli Swift: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re clever, so they’re able to outsmart some of the ways we try to keep them out of our garbage or out of our property. They are social, so they are really noisy. They are protective parents, so they can be aggressive around their babies when they feel like they’re being a threat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I keep coming back to this thing John Marzluff said, that it’s important to remember crows are “sentient beings,” like us, and that we ought to learn to use our big human brains to discover and address the problems we have with a growing crow population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Marzluff:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I do end every one of my talks about crows with a slide that’s like, ‘OK, these things can get under our skin. Why? And what should we do?’ And my take-home is that we should celebrate them for being successful, and if we need to control them in places, we need to think hard about it. Like they think about how to live with us, we need to think about how to live with them and come up with strategies that will have meaningful effects on their populations — not just kill a bunch of them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Things like better managing our waste and being faster about removing roadkill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> But mostly, it sounds like we need to just learn to co-exist with crows. And see the good in them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Exactly. While I was doing research for this story I came across a poetry collection about crows.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sounds good. We will listen to one of those poems on the way out. But first, thank you — reporter Dan Brekke — for your reporting this week.\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You’re welcome\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And also a big thanks to our question asker, Kevin Branch. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Kevin Branch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Katie McMurran, Katrina Schwartz and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks this week to Pauline Bartolone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And now the poem we promised you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha reads “Early Morning Crow” by Jim Natal: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crows have no shame. They caw at 6 a.m., \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">expect a response from the windows reflecting\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">overcast skies, wait for an echo\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to return across the canyon, for the bottle \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to wash up on shore, the telephone\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to ring, the empty half of the bed to fill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You cannot throw\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a boot at them like sex-struck cartoon cats\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">yowling backlit by the moon, cannot\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">shoo them like pie-faced pasture cows ruminating\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">with the intensity of low-watt bulbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The crows wake you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">too early. And there you are, an overdue \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">bill, over-ripe melon, alone with your thoughts sluicing\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">back through the gates you had to lower by hand\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the night before, cranking rusty cogs and wheels\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">so you could get some sleep.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bed floods\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and you rise, afloat with black wings spread\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">like oil upon the surface, a near-fatality\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the cold almost got, wet through and hearing \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a solitary crow that croaks: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is anybody there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is anybody there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">then flies away before you can form \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a suitable answer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
"airtime": "SUN 9pm-10pm",
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"meta": {
"site": "radio",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
}
},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"id": "here-and-now",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/hiddenbrain.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
"subscribe": {
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"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Science-Podcasts/Hidden-Brain-p787503/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510308/podcast.xml"
}
},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
"imageAlt": "KQED Hyphenación",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6c3dd23c-93fb-4aab-97ba-1725fa6315f1/hyphenaci%C3%B3n",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
}
},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/xtTd",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mindshift-podcast/id1078765985",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id73801135",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"
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},
"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/M4f5",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Planet-Money-p164680/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510289/podcast.xml"
}
},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Political Breakdown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"subscribe": {
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e0c2d153-ad36-4c8d-901d-f1da6a724824/political-breakdown",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/572155894/political-breakdown",
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