Episode Transcript
This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.
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Thomas Germain: When we talk about deepfakes and AI, often what we’re thinking about is the idea that you’re gonna get tricked.
Morgan Sung: This is Thomas Germain. He’s the cohost of the podcast The Interface, and also a tech columnist at the BBC. His column, Keeping Tabs, covers tech and how it affects average people every day. So, like many journalists on this beat, he’s been keeping an eye on the uptick in deep fake scams.
Thomas Germain: Someone’s going to scam you, they’re going to try and fool you into thinking that they’re someone else.
Morgan Sung: Fakes are synthetic media, images, videos, or audio recordings that have been generated or manipulated by AI to impersonate someone else.
Thomas Germain: But I started thinking about like, what would it be like if the shoe was on the other foot? What if you needed to convince someone that you’re real and you are who you say that you are? How difficult would that be?
Morgan Sung: So Thomas decided to do a little experiment. He called up his aunt Eleanor. Thomas and his aunt Eleanor are very close. She was at the hospital the day he was born and of all of his relatives, she’s the one he calls the most and she’s relatively online.
Thomas Germain: She knows a bit about what’s going on. Her husband, my uncle, is actually a computer science professor. So she gets some of it, but she’s not like up to date on everything that’s happening. And I wanted someone who knows me really, really well.
Morgan Sung: That last part is important. Thomas called his aunt and explained the experiment. He would call her back, and she’d either be talking to the real him, her beloved nephew, or a deep fake, generated by AI. And what Thomas wanted to know was, could she tell the difference?
Thomas Germain: At first, you know, it was a very fun, like, friendly conversation, but there was this weird, like tension, you know? She said before we even got on the phone, she’s like, “Oh, I’m gonna be really upset if I can’t tell,” you know, because she’s known me since the day I was born, right?
Morgan Sung: His aunt Eleanor tried a few different methods to suss it out. First, she went on Facebook.
Thomas Germain: And read me like a bunch of jokes that she’s seen that she really liked, to like see what my reaction was. And you know, we’re like different generations, we have different senses of humor. So I’m not sure like, was the test that I would laugh or I wouldn’t laugh. It was kind of funny. That didn’t seem to convince her.
Morgan Sung: So she took a different approach.
Thomas Germain: She was knitting me a sweater and we hadn’t decided on the color. And like a couple of weeks before we got on the phone. I told her that I was saying I wanted a gold sweater, like kind of gold colored yarn. And then when we were talking, when I was tricking her about AI, she brought it up and she’s like, “so have you decided on the color?” and I was like, “yeah, you know, I think it might just go boring, like just do like a black or like a dark blue or something.” And I think of all the things, that made her the most suspicious because like, ‘I was expecting you to go with like a more exciting color. She’s like “That…. I don’t know, that feels like a robot answer.”
Morgan Sung: [Laughter] It’s so generic, it can’t possibly be you.
Thomas Germain: Yeah, I know, but maybe I’m a boring guy.
Morgan Sung: She still couldn’t be sure, so she gave him another test.
Thomas Germain: She asked me for some details about, like, things from my childhood that you would be unlikely to know if you weren’t a member of my family. And I think she found that a little bit reassuring.
Morgan Sung: But overall, the experience left Aunt Eleanor rattled.
Thomas Germain: I think by the end of the call where she realized she couldn’t be totally sure, it was kind of distressing. You know, like, you’re supposed to know your loved ones, how could it be? And we talked for like 20 minutes or so and by the of it she told me like, “I think it’s the real you, I just can’t be sure, I’m not 100% confident.”.
And at the end I told her it is me, I am not tricking you. But there were all these little things that she was trying to pick up on, and I think this is really important for people to understand, throw that out the window. This technology is so good, I promise you, there is nothing that you can do to tell that you’re not looking at an AI, and if you convince yourself that you could figure it out by just like thinking really hard and being careful, you are more likely to get in trouble and get fooled.
Morgan Sung: This is way bigger than Thomas duping his aunt. It’s a real world problem. Every day, deep fake scams and AI generated disinformation lead people astray. Which is why the general public is becoming so distrustful of everything online. When everything could be fake, how do you tell what’s real and what’s not?
This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.
Kicking this off as always, let’s open a new tab: the Netanyahu deep fake death rumor. In March, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a televised update on the war in Iran. A clip of it was posted on his official X account.
[Audio clip of Benjamin Netanyahu addressing Israeli people in Hebrew]
Citizens of Israel, my brothers and sisters, we are in historic times…
Morgan Sung: Something about that video seemed off.
Thomas Germain: There’s one moment where he kind of waves his hand in front of the camera and if you freeze frame it at just the right second, it kind of looks like he’s got a sixth finger on his hand.
Morgan Sung: Screenshots of this moment started making the rounds. And if you’re just scrolling by and you see this freeze frame out of context, it would probably raise a few alarm bells, right?
Thomas Germain: It really looks weird. It’s like, it looks like this weird digital glitch and because it’s a video, you know, it’s little grainy it’s pixelated.
Morgan Sung: So this rumor started swirling around online. Was this televised speech really Netanyahu? Or was it a deep fake?
Thomas Germain: And people latched onto this because for the longest time, AI image and video generators really struggled with hands. Right? They were trained to focus on faces, hands were this thing they picked up along the way and they couldn’t get the hands just right. That was true two or three years ago. Right? The technology has advanced past that point. It’s not true that AI struggles with hands anymore. That isn’t really an issue, but this was enough and it does look weird if you pause at the right frame.
Morgan Sung: Thus, a conspiracy theory was born: Netanyahu was dead, and this was the cover-up. It didn’t help that the Prime Minister’s health had been the subject of public speculation for years. He had emergency heart surgery in 2023, and then a year later, underwent treatment for prostate cancer. And then there’s the war in Iran. The U.S. and Israel killed the Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
[Audio clip from Global News Youtube post]
In Tehran, thousands gathered to mourn the death of the supreme leader. Similar protests were held in cities around the world including…
Morgan Sung: In retaliation, Iran’s Revolutionary Guard has vowed to hunt down and target Netanyahu personally. The seed of doubt over Netanyahu’s health was already planted. Then, the wonky six-fingered video launched the conspiracy theory into the mainstream.
Thomas Germain: This was enough that some large swath of people latched on to this idea that Netanyahu had been killed in a missile strike, and the Israeli government was hiding the truth and making AI videos to convince the world that he was still alive, to what aim, I’m not exactly sure. It turned into, you know, such like a meme, essentially. Like, the conversation got so big that it was enough that Netnyahu posted another video.
[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X]
Voice behind camera: Do you want to show us?
Netanyahu: Here. Here.
Morgan Sung: This video takes place in a coffee shop near Jerusalem. The camera approaches Netanyahu, and the voice behind it says, they’re saying on the internet that you’re actually dead. Netanyah, holding a latte, tells the camera, I’m dying for a coffee. And then he holds up his hand and says, do you want to count the fingers?
Thomas Germain: He did a terrible job with it for a couple of reasons. If the goal was convincing the public. Number one, I talked to a bunch of people about this and they’re like, the worst thing you can do is come out and deny it because it makes it look like you’ve got something to hide. Right?
Morgan Sung: And there is still something off about the video. It was almost uncanny. He looked super crisp and almost too smooth. It only fueled the conspiracy theories.
Thomas Germain: They shot this on like a nice DSLR, like one of those big cameras, which is how AI videos look. Right? They’re trained on high quality content, high quality videos, so they produce what looks like smoother, polished, high quality video. So it looked a little bit more like AI than it would have if he had just used a phone to record it. So that, I think, just sent people spiraling even more. Nobody was convinced by this, as far as I could tell. The people who had latched on, if anything, it just reaffirmed their belief that the bad guys were trying to trick them.
Morgan Sung: Here’s the thing about conspiracy theories. Once you’re convinced, everything else just seems like confirmation of what you already believe. People took screenshots, zoomed in, tried to find inconsistencies in the backgrounds of the video. Joe Rogan, for one, seemed pretty convinced.
[Audio clip from The Joe Rogan Experience]
Look at this. Yeah, like the coffee. Look how turned it is, but it doesn’t spill at all. It just wiggles to the edge.
Morgan Sung: He talked about it on his podcast, which has over 20 million followers on YouTube. And of course, that just spread the rumor further. I saw claims that if you zoomed in on the date on the register, the pixels didn’t look right. So surely it was fake. Right? Or that the video itself was real, but it wasn’t actually Netanyahu. It was really an actor deep faked to look like Netanyahu and the shadows gave it away. Or, that when he put his hands in his pocket, the fabric of his jacket seemed to smooth over.
Thomas Germain: And the thing about reality is it’s weird. Right? Like, if you look close enough at anything you’ll find weird stuff but especially with digital photography, digital video, it’s the way that the sensors work, like, errors are actually inherent to the way that a digital camera sensor functions. So if you zoom in on any video, if you’re, like, watching a clip from this podcast on social media, zoom in, take a screenshot and zoom in, you will find something weird. That’s just how digital images work, that there’ll be some little grainy thing, there’ll be some glitch. And I think it’s important for people to understand that unless you have serious expertise on this subject, you aren’t qualified to make that kind of call. I am not qualified to make that knd of, I think about this stuff all the time.
Morgan Sung: For his column, Thomas talked to a few of the world’s leading experts on this, including Jeremy Carrasco. He runs a publication called Riddance, which investigates AI-generated media.
Thomas Germain: And he went through, he analyzed it, he determined it was real. I talked to professors, I talked to some people who were like, real world leading experts on digital forensics is what they call it, like figuring out what the origin of a file is. They said there is no doubt. It is impossible that these videos are AI-generated. Like, this thing where it sort of looked like Netanyahu had a sixth finger, even if you watch the clip, instead of looking at a freeze frame, you can kind of see there’s like a shadow on his hand and that’s what it is. It looks weird if you take a screenshot at the right second, but the video itself, it’s very clearly real. This was not enough. And I think that is kind of part of the problem is that we’ve lived through an era where there’s been an assault on expertise, right? That, you know, real conscious, intentional efforts to discredit traditional forms of you know, authority on truth.
Morgan Sung: Thomas also talked to Hany Farid, a professor at UC Berkeley who’s known as the father of digital forensics. He pioneered this field of examining files and figuring out if they’re real.
Thomas Germain: He’s one of these guys that’s constantly watching this stuff. And he says, you can see the progression of AI and deep fake technology if you look at some of the recent global conflicts. Like, if we go back to the beginning of the war in Ukraine, it was almost all real footage. Like, every once in a while, you’d see something AI-generated, but for the most part, it was all real. Fast forward to the conflict in Gaza and it was starting to get to the point where there was more AI-generated content. It was a little harder to sort the real from the truth. You get to when the U.S. invaded Venezuela, and it was about 50-50. Right? You’re seeing as much fake stuff as real stuff if you just go out and look at a random video on the subject on the internet. By the time we got to the war in Iran, there’s more fake footage, there’s more fake clips, there is more mis and disinformation than there is real stuff.
Morgan Sung: A few weeks ago, we dove into the slopaganda coming out of Iran, those AI-generated Lego rap videos dissing the U.S. They’re clearly not real, but they still push specific narratives to the American public. But there’s another kind of AI- generated media at play here: videos that look real but portray events that never happened, like AI-generated footage of Iranian missiles sinking U.S. ships and bombarding civilians in Tel Aviv.
Thomas Germain: In less than six months, we had this dramatic shift where I think people in power who’ve got like, you know, a game to play, they’ve got something that they want to try and convince the public of, they’ve realized that this technology is something they can put into play. There are whole operations that are ready to get off the ground at a moment’s notice to like, fill the world with fakery and lies. I think that is a real serious problem, I mean, even for journalists, even in the media. Like, it used to be if you saw something that was recorded with a camera, you know, in the not too distant past, it was almost certainly real. Right? Because it took so much effort, especially for video, so much effort to fake something in a convincing way.
Now I can do it like while I’m washing the dishes. I could reach over and hammer something out of my phone and generate a fake video. For the average person, I think this means that you are constantly inundated with nonsense. You are being exposed to lies on a near constant basis. It’s not just that the image looks real, it’s not just the video looks real. The thing that’s happening is so close to real life. Right? And if you’re a person who watches a lot of short form video and social media, if like scrolling through Instagram Reels or TikTok, the chances that you have seen a piece of AI content and been fooled that it was real, I’d say in the last week, are extremely high.
Morgan Sung: Actual footage, meanwhile, has been written off as fake and AI. When the U.S. bombed an elementary school in Iran, killing 120 children, some people online questioned whether footage of the aftermath was authentic. It didn’t help that the true photos and videos were mixed in with AI-generated depictions of what happened. It’s one thing for digital forensics experts, like Hany Farid, to sift through all of the slop and determine what’s real. It’s another for these experts to get the public to actually trust them.
Thomas Germain: It leads to an information ecosystem, you know, a landscape of truth where everything is up for debate. Nothing is set in stone and everything is suspect. And that leads to some new ways that power can be abused and people can be taken advantage of.
Morgan Sung: The conspiracy theories over Netanyahu’s death have not stopped. The follow-up videos and public appearances after the coffee shop debacle only fueled the rumors further. In March, Netanyahu appeared in a video with Mike Huckabee, who is now the ambassador to Israel.
[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X]
Mike Huckabee: Mr. Prime Minister, I wanted you to know, the President asked me to come and make sure you were okay.
Benjamin Netanyahu: Yes, Mike. Yes, I’m alive.
Morgan Sung: If anything, it only convinced people that Huckabee was also a deepfake. On X and TikTok, people did the same exact thing they did to previous videos, zoomed in, slowed down, cropped screenshots, and looked for any anomaly that could confirm their theories.
[Audio clip from a post on the TikTok account of @ragingprestigemaster3.0]
The picture you’re seeing right up here, that’s not his ear, fam.
Thomas Germain: I think that is a truly historical moment. This is, according to everyone that I asked, the first time that the leader of a major world power has like openly gone out in front of the public to try and convince people that he’s not an AI. And I think it’s a sign of a very rocky period that we’re about to enter.
Morgan Sung: What does this mean for media literacy, our ability to parse the truth from fiction? Well, it definitely does not bode well for the information ecosystem. It’s really easy to take advantage of public distrust and write off real evidence as fake and AI. We’re going to talk about liars and disinformation in a new tab, after a quick break.
But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.
Okay, after the break, we’re coming back to bunnies on a trampoline. Stick around.
We’re back. Time to open a new tab: the liar’s dividend.
Thomas Germain: A while back there was this video of, it looked like night camera footage and it was bunnies jumping on a trampoline.
Morgan Sung: Yes.
Thomas Germain: You remember this?
Morgan Sung: I got duped by that. I have a sense of whimsy. [laughter] I thought it was real.
Thomas Germain: I fell for it too at first, you know, I saw that and I was like, wow, like maybe the world’s okay after all, like there’s still, you, know, there’s still nice cute things happening. No, turns out it was fake. Millions of people saw this. That doesn’t matter. Right? It’s not going to affect your day or your life that the bunnies aren’t real. But you’re seeing stuff that is a little bit more consequential, that is maybe affecting your beliefs about how the world works or what is happening. And I think this adds up to a lot of people being led astray in ways that are really, really subtle.
Morgan Sung: Because anything online could be fake, people have become suspicious of everything.
Thomas Germain: And that creates a situation where if there’s ever any reason to doubt that something is real, then it immediately falls apart.
Morgan Sung: This is a media phenomenon called “the liar’s dividend.” Legal scholars coined the term back in 2018 in a paper about how deep fakes, truth decay, and cognitive bias affect the information ecosystem. They thought it was bad back then? They could not have predicted today. Anyway, so what exactly is “the liar’s dividend”?
Thomas Germain: It takes time or resources to verify that something is real. It’s free to cast doubt. It’s free to say that’s fake, right? It takes no effort at all. And once you raise those suspicions, you can take advantage of that. Right? I can say, ‘oh, that’s a fake news, that didn’t happen.’ And that gives people in power the ability to cast doubt on anything that isn’t convenient for whatever their goals happen to be.
You know, we’ve reached the point where you cannot trust your eyes, like, that ship has sailed, it’s over. You can’t tell whether you’re looking at an AI video or not. You certainly can’t tell whether your looking at a image. They’ve gotten so good that our physiology does not allow you to deal with this problem.
Morgan Sung: You don’t have to be a major world leader to be affected by this. Before he wrote about this deep, fake situation, Thomas worked on this story about a safety tool that wipes your personal information from Google search results. Like every other tech journalist, he’s really passionate about privacy. So he was chugging coffee, writing this article…
Thomas Germain: I got myself all worked up and I put in my family group chat, like, “Here’s a link to this setting. Everybody needs to go turn this on right now.” And my mom was like, “Is this really you?” Like, are you, is someone like taking…like that’s…[laughter] and in her defense, it is weird behavior. Right? That’s a strange thing for me to do. You have to use this Google setting right now, that’s something that’s gonna happen to you. Right? You’re gonna be talking to someone, something will be strange. Right? Maybe you’ll be in an emergency. Maybe you will get in a car accident and you call, you know, your wife and be like, I really, I desperately need Amazon gift cards right now. And it’s, it’s real.
Morgan Sung: If your loved one calls you and urgently tells you that they need those gift cards, it’s probably a scam. But maybe your partner is calling to ask for the password to the family Netflix account. Your best friend lost her passport while on vacation and needs help getting a new one. Or your nephew tells you that he actually wants a blue sweater instead of the gold one you started knitting. These could be real, but how do you know?
Thomas Germain: That’s a thing that’s going to happen more and more because we’re living in this world where everything is suspect and if any little doubt comes up, suddenly everything falls apart.
Morgan Sung: So what is the solution here? Are AI companies or social media platforms doing anything to help differentiate between what’s real and what’s generated? Industry leaders and academics have been pushing for a kind of digital watermark that would be embedded in the file itself, like planting a flag that says AI-generated. And that flag would be planted deep in the pixel data. It would be really difficult to remove. Google Gemini already does this. It’s called Synth ID.
Thomas Germain: So the dream there is we’ll get to a place where like all of the big AI companies or companies that are making these tools will participate in this program and there’ll be some level of checking. On the flip side, there’s efforts to build a similar thing into cameras that when you take an image with a camera, you take a photo or a video, it would embed something in the file that says this was taken by an actual camera. It’s like, this is an image of reality. So far, that technology is not here. Right?
We haven’t gotten to the point where that is widespread enough that it can be usable. And hopefully we will arrive at a point where there’s some kind of technical solution or at least technical amelioration to this problem that will like help you sort through it. But we also just need from the social media companies, I think a lot of critics that I speak to say they need to be doing way more to label AI content right now than they are.
On a lot of these platforms, you can upload a piece of footage or an image. They don’t really care whether it’s AI, right? The platforms where we’re getting all of our information could be doing a lot more to let you know that something that you’re looking at is suspicious, but they don’t have a financial incentive to solve that problem. Right? So I think what it really comes down to is we need regulatory approaches to this that will help at least do something to point people in the direction of truth. Not an easy problem to solve, but we haven’t really even tried yet.
Morgan Sung: Okay, well in that case, how do you assure your loved ones that you’re really you? Let’s open our last tab:n how to prove that you are not a deep faith.
So this YouTuber, Jim Browning, makes videos about exposing scammers. He recently went super viral with his three-finger test.
[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post]
Jim Browning: Can you like hold up three fingers in front of your face or anything?
Person: Oh, come on, that’s too much.
Morgan Sung: The reasoning? This would disrupt any face-swapping deep fake program and make it glitch.
[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post]
Jim Browning: Can you do that then?
Person: Uh, I don’t know, it’s too much to ask somebody.
Jim Browning: Well, it’ll make sure you’re not AI, is that unreasonable? I mean, can you do that in front of your face?
Person: Well, is that enough?
Jim Browning: No, it’s not in front of your face.
Morgan Sung: The scammer then abruptly ended the call, and in the comments, people were like, this is it. This is the perfect test. This is how to stay safe. But the truth is, this trick has been outdated for years.
Thomas Germain: I could tell you some things that you could look for, some telltale signs for audio and for video, but I’m not going to because if I gave you those tips, it would actually hurt you more than it would help you because in a week or in a month or in six months, they’re going to put out another AI model and those tips that worked last week aren’t going to work now. There is no giveaway that you’re watching an AI video. In fact, maybe the one thing that you can look out for is if you’re a watching a video that’s low quality, that’s grainy, you might be more likely to get fooled because if there is any weird digital artifact, it’ll be harder to see. AI can make high quality video, a low quality grainy pixelated image, that’s not a sign that you are looking at AI. Maybe it’s a sign, if there’s any doubt, that you might want to think twice. But we’ve past that point. Deepfakes are astonishingly good, and they keep getting just a little bit better.
Morgan Sung: Luckily, there is one way to protect yourself and your loved ones. And you don’t have to be that tech savvy to do it. It involves gathering up your inner circle. Older relatives, close friends, partners, nibblings, neighbors, basically anyone who could feasibly get this panicked emergency call from someone pretending to be you.
Thomas Germain: You should set up a secret word that you both agree on, that if there’s ever any doubt, you can ask the person for that password and they’ll give it to you and you know you’re talking to the real person. Because I have spoken to people who’ve been scammed, where they get a phone call and it is their husband or their child. I talked to this woman who a scammer set this up and called her and she like swears to this. She’s like, I know it’s fake, but it was my son. It was his voice. It was perfect and they’re really convincing and if you’re going to get scammed what they’re going to do is there’s going to be some emergency you need to deal with right now you’re not going to be in your right mind then it’s like a solution that’s so simple it’s kind of nice in a way that with like such a frighteningly high-tech problem the solution is just speaking words outloud.
Morgan Sung: This charmingly simple solution is more important than ever, because unfortunately, there’s no going back to the days before AI. But while this code word thing is great for keeping grandma from blowing her life savings on a deepfake scam, it doesn’t help you parse through all of the deepfaked and AI-generated content you come across online. There are still countless ways to get tricked.
Thomas Germain: I think it will reach the point where for a lot of people, there is no source of truth. Everyone is trying to trick you. And I think there are a lot grifters who will take advantage of that. I think there’s people in power who will see an opportunity and they will seize it. You’ll be able to spin whatever kind of narrative you want because if you’ve got people who trust you, you can say, well, the things that I’m telling you are true and anyone who criticizes me, they’re all part of the lie.
My optimistic view is it will get so bad that there will be such a desperate need for trusted institutions that people will step in to fill the void and people will seek out sources of truth that they can rely on and we will rebuild an ecosystem of trust. So I think the advice that would give you is like go find that one person on the internet, someone who’s sincere, who you trust, who you feel has your best interest in mind or maybe in institution. Maybe there’s a publication you like, maybe it’s local news. Try to find sources who you can go to, who you look to when there’s a question, because your eyes and your ears just aren’t gonna cut it anymore.
Morgan Sung: That being said, when it comes to these personal relationships, sometimes you do need a little trust. Thomas said that he and his aunt Eleanor don’t use a code word every time they talk on the phone.
Thomas Germain: Fortunately, this hasn’t caused any strife between me and my aunt so far. I told her that I wasn’t actually trying to trick her, that it was the real me on the other end of the line, but I hope that this experience was unsettling enough that if there’s ever any reason to doubt, if it’s ever like, hey, I’m in trouble, I need money, or I forgot my password, I hope that she will question it and try and figure out whether it’s really me because at some point someone is going to try and fool all of us.
Morgan Sung: Yeah. So when she gets that chaotic text that you actually do want the gold sweater after all, she’ll ask you for your code word.
Thomas Germain: And I do need $600 in Walmart gift cards as soon as possible.
Morgan Sung: So if you do get a call begging for gift cards, it never hurts to double check and ask for the code word. That’s it for this deep dive, but stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.
Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.
Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.
Thomas Germain: You know, one of the people I interviewed for this story said, “I purchased 25 acres in Vermont so when the world falls apart, I’ll go live on my homestead.” You know, maybe they’ve got the right idea. I don’t know. I don’t have 25 acres in Vermont money myself. So I’m stuck here with the rest of us schlubs, you know, we’re gonna have to deal with the fallout.
