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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Younger generations of Latinos are openly talking about their strained bilingual journeys, calling themselves either “pocho or pocha” or “no sabo kids,” both of which allude to a lack of Spanish fluency. For many U.S. Latinos, struggling with Spanish raises questions about identity and feeling truly connected to their culture. At the same time, Spanish-dominant Latinos in the U.S. face a different set of challenges with finding belonging as they navigate an English-forward society. Both sides are contending with language barriers, so how do we stand strong in ourselves and our native tongues? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares speaks with Spanish-language comedian Angelo Colina and Spanglish podcaster Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss to discuss the pride and struggle of living between languages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7078599028&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/yUR4IjqHoSA\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/rachellaloca/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://rachellaloca.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1330248548\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Latinos Out Loud Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Angelo Colina (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/angelocolina/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@angelocolina?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiktok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.angelo-colina.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tickets to see Angelo live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m giving you two seconds to tell me how to say the word grapefruit in Spanish. Alright, guess the one. Now, the correct answer, at least the one I know, is toronja. But the judges here are telling me that we’re also accepting pomelo. So if you said either one of those two, felicidades, te debo unos cancitos. But if you had asked 10-year-old me, I would have yelled out, fruta de uva! Fruta de Uva. You guys, that is not a hypothetical situation. There was a time, I was at a restaurant with my grandmother and I asked her if she wanted some fruta de uva, qué vergüenza. But, hey, at least I know the difference between avergüenzado and embarazado, eh? Por favor, I’m not that pocho. Pendejo a veces, pero pocho, no. Now, I feel like a native Spanish speaker would say differently, because I am not one. Yes, I grew up surrounded by English and Spanish on the border, but I’ve never been able to confidently say that I am incredibly fluent. Can I carry a conversation with my Spanish monolingual relatives? Sure. Am I able to respond to questions from my suegros? I’d like to think so. But deep down, I feel like they’re always thinking, “Pobrecito no sabe.” Because the further I get away from my Spanish, the closer I am, I think, to losing my Latino card, which I’m holding onto for dear life. But the truth is, I am a product of my third-gen, Mexican-American circumstances. So how do I exist between these two languages? I’m Xorge Olivares, y hoy preguntamos, how does language make me who I am? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, I just shared a very embarrassing story about my inability to know Spanish that well. So I wanna ask each of my guests if they have a similar moment, embarrassing moment, something that they’re like, oh, I never wanna relive again when it comes to either English or Spanish. So first excited to welcome to the program, Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss, who I must bow down to as one of the OG Latino podcasters has paved the way for me and many others in this field. She is the host of the Latinos Out Loud podcast. She is also an adjunct professor at CUNY, which is the City University of New York. Rachel, thank you for joining me for this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. Thank you for that really warm introduction. I’m really, really happy to be here. I have so many embarrassing language stories, but this one is still pretty fresh. And it all happened when I was maybe seven years old, which was a really long time ago. My mother’s Dominican. And I remember one time as, you know, mind you, I grew up half Jewish and half Catholic. So like just mixed race and mixed up. So we were at my Tia’s house and she told me in Spanish, She was like. Pide la mano de tu tía. So I took my tía’s hand. And I’m like, okay, what do you want me to do with it now? And she was like, no, no no no, es que cuando tu pide la mano le está preguntando por una bendición. So like pide a mano is asking for a blessing from your tía and I had no idea. I just thought she told me to grab my tia’s hand and you know, you do what your mom tells you to do no matter how weird. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I would have done the same thing. Even now, I wouldn’t have thought that that’s what she was telling you to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally, and then after like she told me in english what to do i was like oh bendición tia and then of course she was like dios te bendiga so ever since then i’m like oh that’s how you pide la bendición like the Dominican way got it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got it. Okay, okay. See, now I’m putting this in my back pocket so that way if anybody ever asks, I can say that this is what that particularly means. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Also excited to welcome to the program Angelo Colina, who is a stand-up comedian. I’d like to say I was telling the group here, my production team, that my algorithm serves me up drag queens, gay men, and Angelo Colina comedy sets. So that’s how deep in I am in watching Angelo’s comedy. But he is the creator of the Gente Funny comedy showcase, that is a Spanish language comedy showcase that is touring the country right now. Angelo, thank you so much for joining us. And do you have an embarrassing moment that you’d be willing to share with us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, nice to meet you both. Second, I think the reason why I come up in your grade, it might be my high waist pants or just my mustache. It’s both of them, I get in the mix of those mixes you were mentioning. And for me, it was the other way around. So that’s funny because I didn’t grow up here. I’ve only been here for eight years or so, seven years. And so… It wasn’t that way for me. It was mostly, and when I was learning English, we were just learning. So you’re kind of allowed to make mistakes. And so I didn’t have that embarrassing moment. And then when I came here, I already spoke English. And so for me, it was the other way around because I used to be an English and a Spanish teacher. For me, how do I correct this person without making them feel embarrassed about themselves? But the things I heard were actually. The reason why I started doing stand-up like my first show was about those mistakes like we call them in when we do the English lessons we call it false friends which are words that look like familiar to you in a language but then they’re not and so like I had students telling me, teacher, I don’t import, like no me importa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for me, that was all the time, how do I correct them without making them feel embarrassed? So once a student told me that in Colombia, he said, teacher, I don’t import, I’m like, no, no. You export. And then a couple of students got the joke. And that’s how, that’s I started teaching the differences. So that’s funny, but I would have been your tia is what I’m trying to say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love, you know, what’s interesting is that my dad was a Spanish teacher, a high school Spanish teacher for many, many years. And so I feel like for me, even though my dad was a Spanish teacher, I don’t have the best command of Spanish, so I actually want to start the conversation there, Rachel, if we can talk about how you feel like you have a good or maybe not so good command of Spanish, considering how you grew up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well Jorge, we’re more connected than you think, because my father was also a Spanish teacher, okay? That’s how, like, my parents met. My mother didn’t speak English. My father was studying to be a Spanish Teacher that summer on Brighton Beach, and they hooked up. Pero, that will save that for another episode. But I feel like my command of Spanish should be so much better being the daughter of a woman born in the Dominican Republic where Spanish is her native language, and the daughter of a Spanish teacher in New York City public schools for close to 30 years. However, let me give myself some grace, okay?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before I took the dive into comedy, I was working a corporate gig. I was at like every Spanish language magazine. Remember magazines? Like the thing that you turn with your. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mhmm! People en Español!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes! So I worked at People en Español for a really long time. I worked a Latina, I worked in Vanidades, a bunch of different magazines. And my command of Spanish was so much better during those years. Like, I was able to read in Spanish, write in Spanish. And now, I find it so hard to, like, get words that I need. But I speak Spanglish fluently, AF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thank you for saying that because I always say that my first language is actually Spanglish because I don’t know when Spanish happened. I don’t know when English happened. It just tada! I knew both languages somehow when I was three or four, whatever age it was. So I’m curious for you, Angelo, one, about your command of let’s say English because you were born in Venezuela, correct? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So maybe let’s talk about command of English. And I am curious as we’ve brought up Spanglish, if you have any particular feelings about the usage of Spanglish. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I do. And I was actually, I’m on the other side in the sense, it might be a generational thing because so, I lived in Venezuela for 20 years, then I lived in Colombia for two years, then I came here to the States. What I used to see was that there was some type of shame between, well, coming from the Latinos who grew up in Latin America to the ones who were born in the States and they didn’t speak Spanish fluently. And there was that type of shame in that entire conversation. Uh, everyone would make jokes about it. Like for me coming to shows in Spanish, that would happen a lot. And for me, I feel like when people say, oh, they’re not real Latinos because they were born here, whatever, I’m like. I would completely disagree, because I feel like people learn how to be Latinos when they aren’t here, because you’re aware of other nationalities. And I used to say when I was in Venezuela, cuando yo estaba en Venezuela yo no era Latino, yo era venezolano. Y cuando vivia en Colombia tampoco era Latino, era un malparido Venezolano, but you are still not that. That’s what I’m trying to say. You’re not Latino until you are here in the States and you’re aware of like pupusas. I had never had one. And so now you start connecting. With other nationalities, with other people like, that’s what it is. I don’t think there should be any type of shame of not being fluent because at the same time, the way you speak, it just has like, you just spoke like, Dominican Spanish like a while ago, you know that that’s as pure as it gets. And it’s the same the other way around, where people are, I see that a lot now at the shows, a lot of people bring their partners who are, let’s say they have a white husband and he’s learning Spanish and he says a word in Spanish and everyone’s like, yeah, or they’re laughing. It’s like we’re encouraging people to learn. And I’m like, yeah, that doesn’t happen the other way around. And it should, because when people are not speaking English fluently, it’s like hey, that’s a second language. So I think that’s what it is. I think we should give more credit to ourselves. I think we’re killing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we’re killin it but I want to talk about the places where we do feel comfortable speaking Spanish, speaking English, speaking Spanglish, whatever iteration of language we want. And Angelo, you were just talking about this Gente Funny Showcase. It is an all Spanish language show. So talk about that, your choice to use Spanish in a professional setting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Umm, I started doing standup comedy in Salt Lake City, Utah, that I would speak in English at the time and I would do the shows in English and I still do comedy, I do standup in English every once in a while, but I just realized it wouldn’t be, the things I find funny won’t translate. And it’s not about situations, because that’s not what it is. It’s not language. It’s culture. And so. I’m way more familiar with like Latino culture and I’m like in love with it with all of the different nationalities and I try to learn a lot. It’s really not funny if I go to, I don’t know, the Upper West Side and I am doing a show in English and I make an impression of the Argentinian accent. It doesn’t really translate because we’re not aware of it. Whereas with the, if I do it in Spanish about the Argentinean or the Dominican or I speak about our differences. It automatically translates because we share a lot more of the references. But I do think in general, the audiences, Latino audiences are way funnier than any other audience. Like the Dominicans listening to you they be like “Que tu dices mi loco” and it’s like, they’re just funnier!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel, you are somebody who has had a microphone and I love that you could see the bedazzled microphone. If you’re watching us on YouTube, there’s a beautifully pink bedazzled, the microphone in front of Rachel. But we are in a beautiful position that we do have microphones in front of us. So how do you make the choice on what language comes out when you do record in front of that pink bedazzled microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I think in English and I translate to Spanish, but sometimes the slang is so much easier in Español. ¿Tu me entiendes loco? You know? Like right then and there, like for emphasis, the Dominicanisms work really well for me. You know. Tu estas pasado, You know like things like se me sale de la boca\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ya tu sabes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ya tu sabes lo que lo es loco, KLK! Yeah, so I tend to like to think in English. And let me tell you, I’m the most under pressure in front of family. You know, I feel like I have to say the right vocabulary word. I’m terrible at conjugating verbs and like tenses in Spanish. It’s so hard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I hate that, it’s really with my family, like the people who shouldn’t judge you, even though they do judge you and bully you and do all the things like before anybody else does. Like, I didn’t think that I would feel so vulnerable around them speaking Spanish, but that’s exactly who I hate speaking Spanish with because of the like, oh, poor guy. We didn’t teach him right. Oh, this is a failure on us because he doesn’t know the language of his grandmother or grandfather or whatever, antepasado is the one who spoke Spanish the most. I’m curious, Rachel, if you’ve noticed that, especially growing up in New York, there’s so many different Latinos that you can experience in New york. Just seeing how distinct your accent was or how special it was in comparison to other Latinos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I get Brooklyn right away. People somehow know that I’m from freaking Brooklyn. I’m like, forget about it. How? I don’t understand. What are you talking about? Yeah, like, hey, can I get some water? And they’re like, you’re from Brooklyn, aren’t you? Yeah. I, I really try my hardest to represent, you know, for the cultura, as you were saying earlier. And it’s beyond just sounding Dominican or Rican or… You know, whatever it is, what comes out of my mouth, I think, is is New York. But I don’t really identify that much with like sounding Dominican. Like I can sound Dominican sometimes true talk. But like I also people tell me like, oh, you must be Puerto Rican. I’m like, no, not at all. You know, or sometimes I get Sicilian. I don’ even get Latino. They’re like, Oh, you’re some kind of Mediterranean or something. Right. No, far from it, like I’m just like a mixed-bred girl with a little bit of everything, un sancocho, if you will. But I will say, when I start like singing my dembow, my toquicha, you mentioned Rochy, Yo me siento como una dominicana pura, loco!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, en español que se te sale, en inglés no, en ingles you could be, you’re very New York en inglés. Pero en español, sancocho. Like, as soon as you do it, una sola palabra dijiste, san-cocho, and I’m like Dominican. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For reaal? I don’t even hear it! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that though! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you’re very…I cannot tell you how Dominican you are. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seriously, you guys? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your family is here from Santo Amigo or El Cibao, one of the two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I love that! I don’t hear that myself. You know, you never hear what you sound like, right? But like, I don’t think I sound Dominican. I am so proud. Let me get my guira. Hold on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hahaha! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you! [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">percussive sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">oh, hey!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emotional support guira, claro.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to take a quick little break. But when we come back, more hyphenación. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna share this quick story of when I was 22 years old and I had first moved to New York, my first broadcasting on air job. I was really excited because I was gonna be able to do something that my parents could listen to. And I would be able to say, you know, Jorge Olivares every time I signed off on these broadcasts. But very quickly, I had to have a conversation with my older white supervisor who said I needed to anglicize my name. That if I was going to do anything on air, I had to say Jorge Olivares, which even now coming out of my mouth sounds really weird. And this was a shock to me because I’ve grown up on the Texas-Mexico border. Everybody knows how to say my name. I was surrounded by a bunch of Latinos growing up, so it never felt weird for me to say it how I was taught it. So I… Since then, since I was 22, I have had to be very intentional and deliberate with how I say my name because I need folks to know that I’m from the border, I’m Mexicano. I’m Tejano. I’ve got all this stuff behind me, and so definitely my relationship to my name and to language has shifted over the years. So I want to ask you, Rachel, if you’ve had a similar situation, where your relationship with either language has changed a bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you know, you actually, like, struck a chord with the name, because I feel less Latina when I say my actual government name without my stage name baked in, where it’s like, Hi, I’m Rachel Strauss. You know, like I don’t know how many I can’t tell you how many job interviews I’ve been on where I show up, I’m like, “Hi, I am Rachel Straus,” and they look at me like, no, you can’t be. You don’t look like a Strauss. Wait, what are you exactly? You know with their eyes I don’t think that’s allowed to be said by like HR and stuff. But like, um, you know, I get that feeling like, Oh, you weren’t expecting a mixed race girl who’s half Latina and whose father’s Jewish. I get it. Um, let me tell you a little bit about me. So then when I do say, “Oh I’m Rachel, la loca Strauss” that pretty much encapsulates who I am to the T. Um, I am this mixed bred that loves both of her cultures. That fully embraces being Dominican and like a descendant of Eastern European Jew, you know, Russian and a whole bunch of other stuff mixed in with the borscht. And like, it’s the name for me. I never really gave it thought until you brought up how you say your name. And I do say La Loca with intent. Because I could easily say Rachel La Loca Strauss, you know? But then I don’t sound like me, okay? It’s Rachel La Loca Strauss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See, cause the thing is it is, it is what feels unnatural because I’ve never in my life said, my name is Jorge. You’ve never, in your life, have not said La Loca in the accent that you have. Right? Uh, so Angelo, did you like just thinking about accents, names, how you present yourself to the world, have you had to contend with that and, and like deal with some of the, the inner workings of how you feel about how you express yourself? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of my immigrant career in the US, I had to. Like as soon as I was in Salt Lake City, Utah, yes, I have to pronounce, I would say Angelo. But if I’m here in New York, and I do come listen, like a lot of times, it’s like, it’s my show, I’m doing my show in Spanish, it says en español, it’s just everything. I’m gonna just speak the way I speak because that’s the actual thing people are paying for. They want to see that part of themselves even, not even mine. And so they also introduce themselves pronouncing their name, how they normally wouldn’t do it. That I do see. I know they would normally say, My name is Maria, but when they see me, they go like, ah, mi nombre es Maria, mucho gusto. Like that’s, it’s like, okay, I’m free. I won’t be judged here. And so my focus, but of course, I’m lucky enough to say that because I also live in New York City where everyone’s aware of that and everyone’s like actually curious. I feel like people want to learn. And so when I have the chance to do this outside, in other cities, yes, of course, sometimes I try to…I try to sound like I have been here for longer if I’m, you know, in other places, because you feel it. I’ve been to Kansas City, you know, I’ve been to Louisville, Kentucky, I’ve been to, and it’s, it’s not as welcoming, you know. I don’t know if I would get away saying Angelo El Loco Colina. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Loca, that was also Dominican, the way you said, you said La Loca. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">percussive sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel so Dominican right now! Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You should!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is what I love because I’m a Mexican American, Dominican American, somebody from Venezuela who has that very distinct, like we are all from our own distinct backgrounds and yet look at how much we’re having fun with, with language, with culture, with identity. And I feel like the thing that has also helped is I’ve just like me vale madre now when I speak Spanish sometimes, like I’ve had to make certain agreements with myself about like, it’s okay to be embarrassed. It’s okay to kind of walk around with your tail between your legs, just live. So I wonder Angelo, if you’ve had these moments where you had to throw all of that out the window, any preconceived feelings, any hangups? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of it was just the people around me. It’s a privilege of living here in New York City, where only the attempt of doing something with enough passion is gonna be applauded. Like people are gonna cheer you up and they’re gonna be supportive. And so I think New York did it for me. Like just people here were like, dale cabrón, dale, métate, okay, dale. Laigala, dice la gente del cibao in Dominican Republic they say laigala. I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing 100% if it wasn’t because of the community. Maybe we’re not completely unified. And nobody wants that from the others, because it would be, we would be unstoppable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna end by asking, especially as the host of a show called Hyphenacion, which we made up and it’s fun. Rachel, is there a word or a phrase that you love in Spanish that just doesn’t hit in English? That nobody, when you’re trying to do the literal translation, como que no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally and it’s so Dominican and I love to motivate others so I’m always like \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ponte la pila. Ponte la pila, loco! Ponte la pila. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which I guess a literal translation of that was what to put yourself on a battery? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Put on your batteries. Put in your batteries. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah,That’s a we say it a lot too. You know what’s very Dominican? I love, my Dominican friends say it all the time. They would say en Dominicana el único país que dice and then it’s something everyone Like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ponte la pila.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We say it, Colombians say it. Everyone knows it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like we’re like just trying to like own it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love it. My friend explained me the reason but that’s a longer story. For me it’s uh it’s one that it’s used in Venezuela, Cuba, Dominicana Puerto Rico, Colombia tambien, we say alot, Ya tú sabes. But Dominicans have one now that is “Tu Supiste”, but without the S, Tu supi’te. They say, if you say, now I’m giving you this audience, use it. If a Dominican ever tells you you have to say it, if you said Tu supiste, they’ll be blown away. Because Tu Supiste implies you’ve been knowing for longer. So that’s my favorite one at the moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to ‘tu ta pasa’o’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will add mine. Mine is, uh, there’s a phrase it’s just like nada que ver. And it translates to like nothing to see, but it’s really not that it’s like this, this isn’t so little importance. It’s so dumb. That like…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>‘\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Na que ver. You say na sometimes without the d. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have had such a fun time with my, they’re all my new friends. Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation about the beauty of language, the power of language. How it unites, how it distinguishes us, how, it’s just a beautiful way of identifying yourself. So thank you both for what you do. And thank you so much for, for being a part of this really fruitful, fantastic conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, this has been so fun. Congrats to you both. Let’s get it. We are hot right now. I’m here to support. La puerta ya está abierta. So come on and have some sancocho, loco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ya tu sabes, Rachel mi loca. Un abrazo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to say to our listeners, thank you for joining us on this first season of Hyphenación– if you like what we’ve been creating, please remember to rate and review us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and comment on our YouTube videos. It all helps us out, and helps other people find us. And if you have an idea of a topic you’d like us to cover in the future, send it over to hyp@kqed.org. For more information about our guests you can go to the show notes where you’ll find tickets to see Angelo performing in a city near you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">how you can listen to Rachel on Latinos Out Loud. But until next time, mi gente– take care! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Newer generations of Latinos are openly talking about their strained bilingual journeys, calling themselves either “pocho or pocha” or “no sabo kids,” both of which allude to a lack of Spanish fluency. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje speaks with Spanish-language comedian Angelo Colina and Spanglish podcaster Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss to discuss the pride and struggle of living between languages.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Younger generations of Latinos are openly talking about their strained bilingual journeys, calling themselves either “pocho or pocha” or “no sabo kids,” both of which allude to a lack of Spanish fluency. For many U.S. Latinos, struggling with Spanish raises questions about identity and feeling truly connected to their culture. At the same time, Spanish-dominant Latinos in the U.S. face a different set of challenges with finding belonging as they navigate an English-forward society. Both sides are contending with language barriers, so how do we stand strong in ourselves and our native tongues? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares speaks with Spanish-language comedian Angelo Colina and Spanglish podcaster Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss to discuss the pride and struggle of living between languages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7078599028&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/yUR4IjqHoSA'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/yUR4IjqHoSA'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/rachellaloca/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://rachellaloca.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1330248548\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Latinos Out Loud Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Angelo Colina (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/angelocolina/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@angelocolina?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiktok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.angelo-colina.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tickets to see Angelo live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m giving you two seconds to tell me how to say the word grapefruit in Spanish. Alright, guess the one. Now, the correct answer, at least the one I know, is toronja. But the judges here are telling me that we’re also accepting pomelo. So if you said either one of those two, felicidades, te debo unos cancitos. But if you had asked 10-year-old me, I would have yelled out, fruta de uva! Fruta de Uva. You guys, that is not a hypothetical situation. There was a time, I was at a restaurant with my grandmother and I asked her if she wanted some fruta de uva, qué vergüenza. But, hey, at least I know the difference between avergüenzado and embarazado, eh? Por favor, I’m not that pocho. Pendejo a veces, pero pocho, no. Now, I feel like a native Spanish speaker would say differently, because I am not one. Yes, I grew up surrounded by English and Spanish on the border, but I’ve never been able to confidently say that I am incredibly fluent. Can I carry a conversation with my Spanish monolingual relatives? Sure. Am I able to respond to questions from my suegros? I’d like to think so. But deep down, I feel like they’re always thinking, “Pobrecito no sabe.” Because the further I get away from my Spanish, the closer I am, I think, to losing my Latino card, which I’m holding onto for dear life. But the truth is, I am a product of my third-gen, Mexican-American circumstances. So how do I exist between these two languages? I’m Xorge Olivares, y hoy preguntamos, how does language make me who I am? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, I just shared a very embarrassing story about my inability to know Spanish that well. So I wanna ask each of my guests if they have a similar moment, embarrassing moment, something that they’re like, oh, I never wanna relive again when it comes to either English or Spanish. So first excited to welcome to the program, Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss, who I must bow down to as one of the OG Latino podcasters has paved the way for me and many others in this field. She is the host of the Latinos Out Loud podcast. She is also an adjunct professor at CUNY, which is the City University of New York. Rachel, thank you for joining me for this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. Thank you for that really warm introduction. I’m really, really happy to be here. I have so many embarrassing language stories, but this one is still pretty fresh. And it all happened when I was maybe seven years old, which was a really long time ago. My mother’s Dominican. And I remember one time as, you know, mind you, I grew up half Jewish and half Catholic. So like just mixed race and mixed up. So we were at my Tia’s house and she told me in Spanish, She was like. Pide la mano de tu tía. So I took my tía’s hand. And I’m like, okay, what do you want me to do with it now? And she was like, no, no no no, es que cuando tu pide la mano le está preguntando por una bendición. So like pide a mano is asking for a blessing from your tía and I had no idea. I just thought she told me to grab my tia’s hand and you know, you do what your mom tells you to do no matter how weird. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I would have done the same thing. Even now, I wouldn’t have thought that that’s what she was telling you to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally, and then after like she told me in english what to do i was like oh bendición tia and then of course she was like dios te bendiga so ever since then i’m like oh that’s how you pide la bendición like the Dominican way got it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got it. Okay, okay. See, now I’m putting this in my back pocket so that way if anybody ever asks, I can say that this is what that particularly means. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Also excited to welcome to the program Angelo Colina, who is a stand-up comedian. I’d like to say I was telling the group here, my production team, that my algorithm serves me up drag queens, gay men, and Angelo Colina comedy sets. So that’s how deep in I am in watching Angelo’s comedy. But he is the creator of the Gente Funny comedy showcase, that is a Spanish language comedy showcase that is touring the country right now. Angelo, thank you so much for joining us. And do you have an embarrassing moment that you’d be willing to share with us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, nice to meet you both. Second, I think the reason why I come up in your grade, it might be my high waist pants or just my mustache. It’s both of them, I get in the mix of those mixes you were mentioning. And for me, it was the other way around. So that’s funny because I didn’t grow up here. I’ve only been here for eight years or so, seven years. And so… It wasn’t that way for me. It was mostly, and when I was learning English, we were just learning. So you’re kind of allowed to make mistakes. And so I didn’t have that embarrassing moment. And then when I came here, I already spoke English. And so for me, it was the other way around because I used to be an English and a Spanish teacher. For me, how do I correct this person without making them feel embarrassed about themselves? But the things I heard were actually. The reason why I started doing stand-up like my first show was about those mistakes like we call them in when we do the English lessons we call it false friends which are words that look like familiar to you in a language but then they’re not and so like I had students telling me, teacher, I don’t import, like no me importa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for me, that was all the time, how do I correct them without making them feel embarrassed? So once a student told me that in Colombia, he said, teacher, I don’t import, I’m like, no, no. You export. And then a couple of students got the joke. And that’s how, that’s I started teaching the differences. So that’s funny, but I would have been your tia is what I’m trying to say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love, you know, what’s interesting is that my dad was a Spanish teacher, a high school Spanish teacher for many, many years. And so I feel like for me, even though my dad was a Spanish teacher, I don’t have the best command of Spanish, so I actually want to start the conversation there, Rachel, if we can talk about how you feel like you have a good or maybe not so good command of Spanish, considering how you grew up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well Jorge, we’re more connected than you think, because my father was also a Spanish teacher, okay? That’s how, like, my parents met. My mother didn’t speak English. My father was studying to be a Spanish Teacher that summer on Brighton Beach, and they hooked up. Pero, that will save that for another episode. But I feel like my command of Spanish should be so much better being the daughter of a woman born in the Dominican Republic where Spanish is her native language, and the daughter of a Spanish teacher in New York City public schools for close to 30 years. However, let me give myself some grace, okay?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before I took the dive into comedy, I was working a corporate gig. I was at like every Spanish language magazine. Remember magazines? Like the thing that you turn with your. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mhmm! People en Español!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes! So I worked at People en Español for a really long time. I worked a Latina, I worked in Vanidades, a bunch of different magazines. And my command of Spanish was so much better during those years. Like, I was able to read in Spanish, write in Spanish. And now, I find it so hard to, like, get words that I need. But I speak Spanglish fluently, AF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thank you for saying that because I always say that my first language is actually Spanglish because I don’t know when Spanish happened. I don’t know when English happened. It just tada! I knew both languages somehow when I was three or four, whatever age it was. So I’m curious for you, Angelo, one, about your command of let’s say English because you were born in Venezuela, correct? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So maybe let’s talk about command of English. And I am curious as we’ve brought up Spanglish, if you have any particular feelings about the usage of Spanglish. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I do. And I was actually, I’m on the other side in the sense, it might be a generational thing because so, I lived in Venezuela for 20 years, then I lived in Colombia for two years, then I came here to the States. What I used to see was that there was some type of shame between, well, coming from the Latinos who grew up in Latin America to the ones who were born in the States and they didn’t speak Spanish fluently. And there was that type of shame in that entire conversation. Uh, everyone would make jokes about it. Like for me coming to shows in Spanish, that would happen a lot. And for me, I feel like when people say, oh, they’re not real Latinos because they were born here, whatever, I’m like. I would completely disagree, because I feel like people learn how to be Latinos when they aren’t here, because you’re aware of other nationalities. And I used to say when I was in Venezuela, cuando yo estaba en Venezuela yo no era Latino, yo era venezolano. Y cuando vivia en Colombia tampoco era Latino, era un malparido Venezolano, but you are still not that. That’s what I’m trying to say. You’re not Latino until you are here in the States and you’re aware of like pupusas. I had never had one. And so now you start connecting. With other nationalities, with other people like, that’s what it is. I don’t think there should be any type of shame of not being fluent because at the same time, the way you speak, it just has like, you just spoke like, Dominican Spanish like a while ago, you know that that’s as pure as it gets. And it’s the same the other way around, where people are, I see that a lot now at the shows, a lot of people bring their partners who are, let’s say they have a white husband and he’s learning Spanish and he says a word in Spanish and everyone’s like, yeah, or they’re laughing. It’s like we’re encouraging people to learn. And I’m like, yeah, that doesn’t happen the other way around. And it should, because when people are not speaking English fluently, it’s like hey, that’s a second language. So I think that’s what it is. I think we should give more credit to ourselves. I think we’re killing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we’re killin it but I want to talk about the places where we do feel comfortable speaking Spanish, speaking English, speaking Spanglish, whatever iteration of language we want. And Angelo, you were just talking about this Gente Funny Showcase. It is an all Spanish language show. So talk about that, your choice to use Spanish in a professional setting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Umm, I started doing standup comedy in Salt Lake City, Utah, that I would speak in English at the time and I would do the shows in English and I still do comedy, I do standup in English every once in a while, but I just realized it wouldn’t be, the things I find funny won’t translate. And it’s not about situations, because that’s not what it is. It’s not language. It’s culture. And so. I’m way more familiar with like Latino culture and I’m like in love with it with all of the different nationalities and I try to learn a lot. It’s really not funny if I go to, I don’t know, the Upper West Side and I am doing a show in English and I make an impression of the Argentinian accent. It doesn’t really translate because we’re not aware of it. Whereas with the, if I do it in Spanish about the Argentinean or the Dominican or I speak about our differences. It automatically translates because we share a lot more of the references. But I do think in general, the audiences, Latino audiences are way funnier than any other audience. Like the Dominicans listening to you they be like “Que tu dices mi loco” and it’s like, they’re just funnier!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel, you are somebody who has had a microphone and I love that you could see the bedazzled microphone. If you’re watching us on YouTube, there’s a beautifully pink bedazzled, the microphone in front of Rachel. But we are in a beautiful position that we do have microphones in front of us. So how do you make the choice on what language comes out when you do record in front of that pink bedazzled microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I think in English and I translate to Spanish, but sometimes the slang is so much easier in Español. ¿Tu me entiendes loco? You know? Like right then and there, like for emphasis, the Dominicanisms work really well for me. You know. Tu estas pasado, You know like things like se me sale de la boca\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ya tu sabes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ya tu sabes lo que lo es loco, KLK! Yeah, so I tend to like to think in English. And let me tell you, I’m the most under pressure in front of family. You know, I feel like I have to say the right vocabulary word. I’m terrible at conjugating verbs and like tenses in Spanish. It’s so hard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I hate that, it’s really with my family, like the people who shouldn’t judge you, even though they do judge you and bully you and do all the things like before anybody else does. Like, I didn’t think that I would feel so vulnerable around them speaking Spanish, but that’s exactly who I hate speaking Spanish with because of the like, oh, poor guy. We didn’t teach him right. Oh, this is a failure on us because he doesn’t know the language of his grandmother or grandfather or whatever, antepasado is the one who spoke Spanish the most. I’m curious, Rachel, if you’ve noticed that, especially growing up in New York, there’s so many different Latinos that you can experience in New york. Just seeing how distinct your accent was or how special it was in comparison to other Latinos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I get Brooklyn right away. People somehow know that I’m from freaking Brooklyn. I’m like, forget about it. How? I don’t understand. What are you talking about? Yeah, like, hey, can I get some water? And they’re like, you’re from Brooklyn, aren’t you? Yeah. I, I really try my hardest to represent, you know, for the cultura, as you were saying earlier. And it’s beyond just sounding Dominican or Rican or… You know, whatever it is, what comes out of my mouth, I think, is is New York. But I don’t really identify that much with like sounding Dominican. Like I can sound Dominican sometimes true talk. But like I also people tell me like, oh, you must be Puerto Rican. I’m like, no, not at all. You know, or sometimes I get Sicilian. I don’ even get Latino. They’re like, Oh, you’re some kind of Mediterranean or something. Right. No, far from it, like I’m just like a mixed-bred girl with a little bit of everything, un sancocho, if you will. But I will say, when I start like singing my dembow, my toquicha, you mentioned Rochy, Yo me siento como una dominicana pura, loco!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, en español que se te sale, en inglés no, en ingles you could be, you’re very New York en inglés. Pero en español, sancocho. Like, as soon as you do it, una sola palabra dijiste, san-cocho, and I’m like Dominican. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For reaal? I don’t even hear it! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that though! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you’re very…I cannot tell you how Dominican you are. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seriously, you guys? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your family is here from Santo Amigo or El Cibao, one of the two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I love that! I don’t hear that myself. You know, you never hear what you sound like, right? But like, I don’t think I sound Dominican. I am so proud. Let me get my guira. Hold on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hahaha! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you! [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">percussive sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">oh, hey!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emotional support guira, claro.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to take a quick little break. But when we come back, more hyphenación. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna share this quick story of when I was 22 years old and I had first moved to New York, my first broadcasting on air job. I was really excited because I was gonna be able to do something that my parents could listen to. And I would be able to say, you know, Jorge Olivares every time I signed off on these broadcasts. But very quickly, I had to have a conversation with my older white supervisor who said I needed to anglicize my name. That if I was going to do anything on air, I had to say Jorge Olivares, which even now coming out of my mouth sounds really weird. And this was a shock to me because I’ve grown up on the Texas-Mexico border. Everybody knows how to say my name. I was surrounded by a bunch of Latinos growing up, so it never felt weird for me to say it how I was taught it. So I… Since then, since I was 22, I have had to be very intentional and deliberate with how I say my name because I need folks to know that I’m from the border, I’m Mexicano. I’m Tejano. I’ve got all this stuff behind me, and so definitely my relationship to my name and to language has shifted over the years. So I want to ask you, Rachel, if you’ve had a similar situation, where your relationship with either language has changed a bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you know, you actually, like, struck a chord with the name, because I feel less Latina when I say my actual government name without my stage name baked in, where it’s like, Hi, I’m Rachel Strauss. You know, like I don’t know how many I can’t tell you how many job interviews I’ve been on where I show up, I’m like, “Hi, I am Rachel Straus,” and they look at me like, no, you can’t be. You don’t look like a Strauss. Wait, what are you exactly? You know with their eyes I don’t think that’s allowed to be said by like HR and stuff. But like, um, you know, I get that feeling like, Oh, you weren’t expecting a mixed race girl who’s half Latina and whose father’s Jewish. I get it. Um, let me tell you a little bit about me. So then when I do say, “Oh I’m Rachel, la loca Strauss” that pretty much encapsulates who I am to the T. Um, I am this mixed bred that loves both of her cultures. That fully embraces being Dominican and like a descendant of Eastern European Jew, you know, Russian and a whole bunch of other stuff mixed in with the borscht. And like, it’s the name for me. I never really gave it thought until you brought up how you say your name. And I do say La Loca with intent. Because I could easily say Rachel La Loca Strauss, you know? But then I don’t sound like me, okay? It’s Rachel La Loca Strauss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See, cause the thing is it is, it is what feels unnatural because I’ve never in my life said, my name is Jorge. You’ve never, in your life, have not said La Loca in the accent that you have. Right? Uh, so Angelo, did you like just thinking about accents, names, how you present yourself to the world, have you had to contend with that and, and like deal with some of the, the inner workings of how you feel about how you express yourself? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of my immigrant career in the US, I had to. Like as soon as I was in Salt Lake City, Utah, yes, I have to pronounce, I would say Angelo. But if I’m here in New York, and I do come listen, like a lot of times, it’s like, it’s my show, I’m doing my show in Spanish, it says en español, it’s just everything. I’m gonna just speak the way I speak because that’s the actual thing people are paying for. They want to see that part of themselves even, not even mine. And so they also introduce themselves pronouncing their name, how they normally wouldn’t do it. That I do see. I know they would normally say, My name is Maria, but when they see me, they go like, ah, mi nombre es Maria, mucho gusto. Like that’s, it’s like, okay, I’m free. I won’t be judged here. And so my focus, but of course, I’m lucky enough to say that because I also live in New York City where everyone’s aware of that and everyone’s like actually curious. I feel like people want to learn. And so when I have the chance to do this outside, in other cities, yes, of course, sometimes I try to…I try to sound like I have been here for longer if I’m, you know, in other places, because you feel it. I’ve been to Kansas City, you know, I’ve been to Louisville, Kentucky, I’ve been to, and it’s, it’s not as welcoming, you know. I don’t know if I would get away saying Angelo El Loco Colina. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Loca, that was also Dominican, the way you said, you said La Loca. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">percussive sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel so Dominican right now! Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You should!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is what I love because I’m a Mexican American, Dominican American, somebody from Venezuela who has that very distinct, like we are all from our own distinct backgrounds and yet look at how much we’re having fun with, with language, with culture, with identity. And I feel like the thing that has also helped is I’ve just like me vale madre now when I speak Spanish sometimes, like I’ve had to make certain agreements with myself about like, it’s okay to be embarrassed. It’s okay to kind of walk around with your tail between your legs, just live. So I wonder Angelo, if you’ve had these moments where you had to throw all of that out the window, any preconceived feelings, any hangups? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of it was just the people around me. It’s a privilege of living here in New York City, where only the attempt of doing something with enough passion is gonna be applauded. Like people are gonna cheer you up and they’re gonna be supportive. And so I think New York did it for me. Like just people here were like, dale cabrón, dale, métate, okay, dale. Laigala, dice la gente del cibao in Dominican Republic they say laigala. I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing 100% if it wasn’t because of the community. Maybe we’re not completely unified. And nobody wants that from the others, because it would be, we would be unstoppable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna end by asking, especially as the host of a show called Hyphenacion, which we made up and it’s fun. Rachel, is there a word or a phrase that you love in Spanish that just doesn’t hit in English? That nobody, when you’re trying to do the literal translation, como que no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally and it’s so Dominican and I love to motivate others so I’m always like \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ponte la pila. Ponte la pila, loco! Ponte la pila. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which I guess a literal translation of that was what to put yourself on a battery? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Put on your batteries. Put in your batteries. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah,That’s a we say it a lot too. You know what’s very Dominican? I love, my Dominican friends say it all the time. They would say en Dominicana el único país que dice and then it’s something everyone Like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ponte la pila.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We say it, Colombians say it. Everyone knows it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like we’re like just trying to like own it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love it. My friend explained me the reason but that’s a longer story. For me it’s uh it’s one that it’s used in Venezuela, Cuba, Dominicana Puerto Rico, Colombia tambien, we say alot, Ya tú sabes. But Dominicans have one now that is “Tu Supiste”, but without the S, Tu supi’te. They say, if you say, now I’m giving you this audience, use it. If a Dominican ever tells you you have to say it, if you said Tu supiste, they’ll be blown away. Because Tu Supiste implies you’ve been knowing for longer. So that’s my favorite one at the moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to ‘tu ta pasa’o’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will add mine. Mine is, uh, there’s a phrase it’s just like nada que ver. And it translates to like nothing to see, but it’s really not that it’s like this, this isn’t so little importance. It’s so dumb. That like…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>‘\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Na que ver. You say na sometimes without the d. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have had such a fun time with my, they’re all my new friends. Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation about the beauty of language, the power of language. How it unites, how it distinguishes us, how, it’s just a beautiful way of identifying yourself. So thank you both for what you do. And thank you so much for, for being a part of this really fruitful, fantastic conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, this has been so fun. Congrats to you both. Let’s get it. We are hot right now. I’m here to support. La puerta ya está abierta. So come on and have some sancocho, loco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ya tu sabes, Rachel mi loca. Un abrazo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to say to our listeners, thank you for joining us on this first season of Hyphenación– if you like what we’ve been creating, please remember to rate and review us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and comment on our YouTube videos. It all helps us out, and helps other people find us. And if you have an idea of a topic you’d like us to cover in the future, send it over to hyp@kqed.org. For more information about our guests you can go to the show notes where you’ll find tickets to see Angelo performing in a city near you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">how you can listen to Rachel on Latinos Out Loud. But until next time, mi gente– take care! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The US-Mexico border has been a central issue in recent decades of American politics. The southern borderlands are often depicted in media and by politicians as a dangerous ground zero for crime and violence. But is this an accurate image of the place thousands of Americans call home? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gathers with two other fronterizas, artist natalia ventura and filmmaker Robie Flores, who were born and bred along the border. Together they ask, “Is the border we see on TV real life?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5546019730&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/J9TwPY_bVwo\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">natalia ventura (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nataliaventura.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artwork\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/nataliaxventura/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.friendshippark.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friendship Park\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Robie Flores (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theinbetween-film.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ambiente Films\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/documentaries/the-in-between/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watch ‘The In Between’ on PBS\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/robieflores/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it turns out that JD Vance and I have something in common. We both paid a visit to my hometown on the Texas-Mexico border earlier this year. Surprise! Now the VP was in Eagle Pass doing the kind of political parade that my neighbors and I had seen for years. Because regardless of party affiliation, elected officials almost always do this kind of thing when it comes to these border stops. First, they take a tour of the area, which mostly centers on the incomplete border fence. Then they make some passionate remarks chock full of buzzwords tied to border security and immigration, cause you never know if the base is listening. And at some point there’s a photo op with border patrol and local law enforcement because y’all, these DC folks didn’t wear their good jeans and belt buckles for nothing! Now, if you don’t believe me, just comb through the hours of cable news footage that exists. Fox News, MSNBC, CNN– all of these news outlets have practically set up shop in Eagle Pass these past couple of years as my hometown has become more politicized. And honestly, it feels like they’re playing out this National Geographic wildlife documentary fantasy. Migrant caravans, undocumented immigrants, drug and human trafficking. Okay, given that we are talking about an international border, some of that is true. But I can only speak to what I know and what I see. And most of that is just mostly going to Kohl’s department store with my mother or grabbing a mango nada with my sister at our local paleteria. Not exactly a ratings draw, but which of these is a more accurate representation of the border?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorje Olivares, and today I’m asking, is the border from TV, real life? This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, talking about the border, I’m getting very homesick and the best way for me to address homesickness is to listen to music. So I’m going to ask each of my guests what song reminds them of the border. Because for me, it is a song by Tejano artist, Gary Hobbs, and it’s called Las Miradas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Las Miradas by Gary Hobbs plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is fantastic. But excited to first welcome to the program, natalia ventura, who is a community organizer and an artist out of San Diego, California. Who uses her art as a tool for social change. So, natalia, thank you so much for joining us today. And I wanna ask you about what song reminds you of home or the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks so much for having me. My song is not a traditional borderlands song, but I think this kind of speaks to, you know, the many cultures that exist here. My mom is from Tijuana, but she was like an 80s New Wave fanatic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love it!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she very much embraced the music on the other side and loved New Wave. And so a song that really reminds me of home is Our House by Madness, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our House by Madness plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because I grew up on a cul-de-sac and just the lyrics just really remind me of her. She always played that one growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for joining us and for sharing that. Also excited to welcome to the show Robie Flores, who is a filmmaker. Her latest film called “The In-Between” is now available for you to watch and I highly recommend it, especially because it showcases my hometown of Eagle Pass because Robie is a classmate of mine and we’ve known each other for quite some time. So excited to have her and excited to see her and to know what her answer is to the song that reminds her of the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, my God, I’m so excited to say this because I think it’s going to take us all back to like morning pep rallies and cake walks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Robie Flores:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think, is it Fito Olivares, La Vibora…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Cobra! Yeah, it’s called a Cobra and it starts with It’s called La Coba and it starts with…da-da-da, if it resembles a rattlesnake\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Cora by Fito Olivares plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s so classic EP that’s like, it always was just kind of embarrassing to me because I felt so small town but then it’s just so good and every time you hear it we’re just like get up and dance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes me happy being around other border people. I feel like we speak a special language and I’m happy for us to share that language with everybody right now, especially because the border is such an expansive place. We are talking about two specific areas right now. Eagle Pass, South Texas and San Diego, but it spans miles upon miles. So I wanna start with you, natalia, about what your specific border experience was like, has been like, just so folks can get a sense as to how you’re approaching today’s topic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, so I think something that people who aren’t from the border don’t realize is that even within this border identity, there’s so many layers of privilege and experiences and intersections. I feel I grew up very privileged in my border crossing experience. I was born on this side as a U.S. citizen and I crossed with a global entry pass. I grew up visiting my grandparents every weekend, just being able to cross the border to enjoy like food and culture and life on the weekends over there. And then I would, you know, do my schooling during the week on this side and grew up on this side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmhmm, I want to ask you, Robie, because natalia hits it at a point that a lot of us understand, which is sometimes families on the other side, there’s a lot of cultural activities that happen on the other side that we want to show ourselves, especially if we don’t have those on the American side of things. So what was your border experience like growing up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, similar to natalia, that it was, you know, it was like very lucky to be born on the American side, but it’s just, it’s such a, like on the border, it’s, just there’s resources that everybody on both sides that can cross back and forth use and do it. You know, people on either side go to school or work or, you, know, the doctor or like after school activities, every day. Ao like for me it was like I went to school in Eagle Pass but every day after school I went into dance class and piano class like my mom would pick me up and I change in the car and like put my medias on and like as we’re going over the bridge and um and it felt like I was just kind of like getting into this like different identity of like, now I’m a la bailarina and stuff. And so I’d like go to dance class every day after school and then like to my abuela’s house. And I’d wait for my parents to be done with their errands then we’d like take the bridge back home. And that was like every day. And then on the weekends, we go to, you know, my abuela’s house and then we do the carne asadas. You know, that was my border life experience. But with everybody that I was around, it was pretty typical. And so. I assumed that if you lived on the border you could just do that. And it really wasn’t until I started this movie that I was like, oh, you need a visa if you’re on the other side. Like, I didn’t understand that. I didn’t know that because the border that you and I had when we were kids, it was so fluid. And so that’s what I thought that it’s just on the border. This is just how it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was, I was trying to explain to folks here, I’d say, you know, some folks who lived across the the river in Piedras Negras, Coahuila, that they would come to high school and they say, Well, how would they do that? I don’t know, they would just come to school. And we knew that, you knew that they were the kids that lived in Piedras. And I still to this day can’t really tell you why that is. But I love that it was indicative of the porous nature. Like we were one very large community, the Piedra Negras-Eagle Pass community. natalia, would you say that the San Diego-Tijuana community feels like that or maybe a little different in your experience? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It sounds like Eagle Pass is a little bit of a smaller town. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: It is.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here, San Ysidro is the busiest border crossing in the world. So it’s not as easy to just cross quickly. It takes time, you gotta kind of plan around it. But we still had such a cross-border community. I also had the kids in high school who crossed every day to go to school. My mom was one of those. She crossed every day to go school her whole life. So it’s very much a part of our lives as well, even though it’s a bit of a bigger city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’d like to also say that like kids in Eagle Pass for us also crossed to go to school on the Mexican side like it wasn’t just like Mexicans coming you know the people on the Mexican site coming for everything in the U.S. Like everybody on the Eagle Pass side was going to Piedras for also you know, the doctor, for school. So like, it’s just it’s super fluid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I appreciate you making the distinction that it’s not just one side always coming to the other, that it goes both ways. Because growing up, even though we didn’t necessarily have immediate family relatives that lived in Piedras, that’s where I would go to the dentist.Um, but one thing I have not had a chance to do on the border and it’s not part of my border experience just yet is to do work that showcases the border. And each of you are doing such great work that highlights the fronteriza experience. So I want to start with you, natalia about, uh your navigation of art on the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah so for me it really started like once I left the Borderlands for college. I went up to Orange County for my undergrad and I didn’t realize how much the border was a part of my life until I left. Like even just saying I was Latina or Mexican wasn’t enough like I had to talk about my border experience in order to really speak to my Latinidad. Um, and so once I graduated. I came back home with the intention of like really rooting myself even deeper in the borderlands and to do art that was focused on uplifting my community. And so I started doing a lot of workright where the border wall meets the Pacific Ocean. It’s like the westernmost point of the border and it’s also home to a place called Friendship Park where families traditionally are able– are supposed to be able to come together and meet each other, families and friends who aren’t able to cross the border because of their citizenship status. And this is a place that has been under attack over the last few decades because of our government’s opinions and stances on border crossers and migration. And so when I started working with them, the construction of 30-foot walls was beginning at the park under the Biden administration, but it was a project started by the Trump administration. And I did a lot of organizing work with them bringing art to their activism work and using art as like a tactic of non-violence to fight against militarization at the Park. Cause this is supposed to be a place that symbolizes cross-border unity and friendship. And it was very much not that anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmhmm\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b> Some of the interventions that I’ve done with others include hanging banners on the border wall. “Parque si, muro no” is one of our slogans that we use to say we want to park here, not a wall. And I climbed up on the border wall to hang that. And then there’s also a planter that holds white sage, which is a native plant here in Southern California and Northern Baja. And we hung it on top of the border fence to kind of signify the power of this, you know, native plant, native species, and how it overcomes borders. And there’s two sculptural hands that are coming from on top of those planters touching each other to kind symbolize the human connection that we hope will win over these borders. It’s really about reconnecting to our humanity, reconnecting the land, so that’s kind of what my practice is focused on right now. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mhmm, I wanna pull this word that natalia just used, reconnecting, because it feels like that was at the focus, it was a focus point for you in this film, “The In-Between”, Robie, which I wanna share a trailer for listeners…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[ Trailer ] I must have crossed this bridge a million times, but the first time I remember was when my brothers, the twins, Mars and Alex were born. But Mars is gone now, and all I’m left with is his camera. Now that I’m back here, can I find my memories of us? Can I find you? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Robie, tell us about “The In-Between” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ay güey, Well, now you’re making me cry. This is just so surreal because, um, uh, yeah, I, I wanted to go back and make this movie in 2016. I was, I was in New York working at Bloomberg at the time. Um, and I was uh, you know, in the newsroom, I was working next to the news editors while I was like editing on another show and it was just these constant sound bites about the border and how dangerous it is and how we need walls and all these things, and it just sounded so foreign to me. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was just like, what? It’s really chill. I mean, at least the one that I know. Like it’s like. It’s really not like they were making it sound like an action movie. And I was like, “No, let me let me show you like, I’ll invite you like come with me and I’ll show you the cool parts.” You know, and that’s, that’s what the movie was, I just wanted to invite people home and show that. But at the core of it, I wanted it to be, you know, a visit to the border for everybody that hasn’t had the privilege of getting to experience it yet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like if you look up border on IMDB and all the movies that come out with border are always like the same stories. And I looked it up. They all are like. You know, like trauma and, you know, violence and carteles and like, you know, whatever, all the same shit. And like, we, we know that, but for us that are from the border, like we know. That border frontera, I means like carne asada means cumbia means like, you know. Like the identity crisis of not being ni de aquí, ni de alla. Yeah, it’s just like, that’s the real border crisis in my mind, you know? And it’s like, and no one’s talking about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like I think I didn’t realize as I was a child because there were other people around me who felt this too, but there also weren’t of just like leaving the walls of your house where you speak Spanglish to like going to school where It was discouraged to speak any Spanish. Learning from a really young age to cross borders, even when you’re not physically crossing the border or when you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>being from like two different worlds and not really seeing that in the media around you. I think maybe Hannah Montana was like the closest like \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, duality like…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Robie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she said the best of both worlds, which we are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But this is something that I’ve been like realizing, slowly realizing and is what our mission is with this movie and like the work that we do is that there isn’t like, if you think about like, for example, New York and New Yorkers and stuff, like there’s a culture and everybody knows it. Everybody around the world knows it, like we know the accents, like we the fucking baseball hats, Like, we know, like… You know, we know all the nuances of it. And like, yet when someone makes like a movie or writes a book about New York or like a song, no one’s like, but what about the crime? Like, why isn’t, you know, like, but isn’t New York dangerous? You know what, like we do that about the border all the time!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mhmm. We’re going to take a short little break, but we’ll be back with some more Hyphenación after this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I still get a chance to go home, maybe two to three\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">times a year and a couple of years ago, I went home for Thanksgiving and we celebrated at my primo’s ranch. He owns quite a bit of land, literally about maybe a few yards away from the Rio Grande. So we were pretty much at what you would call ground zero. And while we were there, my primo wife said, Hey, would you like a tour? Just since you haven’t seen it, we said, sure. Do you know, I saw some of the things that have been shown on TV. So saw the barbed wire, saw the dozens of national guardsmen, saw the mounds of clothing and the artifacts that have been left behind by folks making their migratory journey here into the United States. And even though I was a little bit taken aback, like, oh my God, I I wasn’t expecting to see all of this. My prima, asi como si nada, was just like saying hi to all the National Guardsmen that she sees every day and passing by all of these things that have now become, part of her day-to-day. So it does get into this notion of the normalization of what we do see on the border. And so I’m curious for you, natalia, since you do live still on the Border, what has become normalized for you of what you see? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, as you just said, it’s very normal to see barbed wire, to see construction projects constantly at the border, um, border patrollers, um, multiple like law enforcement agencies. Um, it’s normal to see people making their journeys. And all of it is very much a part of our culture here. At this point we’ve accepted the border as such a permanent strong thing as a society when in reality it’s so, it’s been a blip in our human history and we need to remember that and we need to move towards that again. Like, for example, the border walls at Friendship Park in the 70s, when the park got inaugurated by the first lady, Pat Nixon, it was just a string of barbed wire and she had her Secret Service cut it so she could greet the people on the Tijuana side. And she said, “I hope there won’t be a fence too long here.” And over the decades, it’s become a 30 foot galvanized steel double wall. Most people are just used to seeing it at this point, which is sad because it shouldn’t be that way. It’s a place where so much of the world just kind of comes together because migrants who come here are coming from all over the world, not just Latin America. And so we have a real opportunity to have kinship with people from all over the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to focus in on this word kinship, can you tell me about the beauty of working at friendship Park?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, I have learned so many beautiful examples of how to care radically for each other, even when we are not family, even if we’ve only known each other for a split second. The way that people who live here really care for the people on their migratory journeys is so inspiring to me and it’s something that I’ve tried to like embody more and more. When I’m driving around near the border and I see someone walking on the street, I know they’re probably on their journey and I will stop and offer them water or food. You know, it’s just something that we need to ingrain more in if you are living near the border because this is a part of that life and really practicing like treating somebody like they are your kin. I think is like the answer to so much injustice and problems around us. And it’s how we like can survive these conditions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also in Eagle Pass have a connection to this idea of friendship because there is an international friendship parade and day that happens in Eagle Pass where we do meet up with folks in Piedras and there’s this huge celebration and Robie I love that the in-between starts and ends with imagery that is at least to me because I know it happens for a friendship day and also for 4th of July but tell me about your reasoning for showcasing this particular moment and day. That we celebrate on the border. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it just like it was so funny it was the first thing I shot when I went home. It was so funny because everybody like back in New York and like this like the center of news is like freaking out about everything that’s going out on the border and like and so I’m like so like living in that for so long that I go home and I am being like, oh my God, how is everybody going to be like. I came back and they were still doing it, you know, and it’s like and they still do it now with all this shit going on. You know, like they’re still doing all the binational celebrations. Like to see the wide shot of this is like, this is what we don’t get to see, Everybody’s hanging out here under like the same beautiful sky. And like, and our river is so narrow that you can literally say hi to each other and hang out and stuff and and and it’s really beautiful. It’s just like, you know, this is our culture. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do want to just quickly say, I do, every time I bring someone home for a visit\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I always take them during friendship week because of the Noches Mexicanas festival that you’re talking about, which interestingly enough, it’s called Noches Mexicanas on the American side.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to further paint this picture that Robie was showing. It all takes place in a park that is beyond the border fence. So it is in this, like, weird purgatory section where it’s in between the border fence and the Rio Grande, but it has always been there. So it’s everybody with their puestecitos selling the funnel cakes, their espiropapas, the raspas, like the I was frescas. It all happens right there and it is such a beautiful reflection of community and just everything that We have. Again, this culture that we have to offer on the border, which I do want to end with this one question to each of you, which is, what is your favorite part about being from the border? I’ll say that for me, it is every time I go home, every time, I go to the border. I am allowed to remember the core of who I am and like I feel like I’ll never be able to lose that joy and pride of border identity. I want to start with you, natalia. What is your favorite part?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, very similar. Just being able to go to Tijuana, get the world’s best tacos, eat some nieves, and just like really tap into those childhood memories, you know, just being a kid, visiting my family, enjoying life. There’s so much beauty and color in Tijuana and it’s hustling and bustling and I love it so much. And it’s such a privilege to be able to just go enjoy that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. What about your Robie?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love just like the remix that like we create, like we’re like the hybridity, the hyphenación, you know, like I like for us, like, I think that we’re, like so beautifully defined. When I was like in New York, all my Mexican friends that were there from Mexico City were like, nachos aren’t a Mexican food. And then, I was always like constantly being shamed for not being Mexican enough. But then I’m like, no, they’re fucking Frontera food and you’re welcome because they’re amazing and everybody has them. And this is what happens at the border. That’s one example of all these amazing things that happen at the border when these two beautiful cultures collide and influence each other. And from there, we have margaritas and Caesar salad and burritos and so many more things. And that’s the beauty of the fluidity and that I’m so proud of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I feel like the the greatest takeaway is that there’s four great exports from the border each of us and the nacho. Well I want to think each of you for for joining me for this wonderful conversation about home Because at the center of it it really is about home for for all three of us and for a lot of people who are. So thank you both for joining me today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. Thank you for having us, Jorge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to let folks know if you want to look at each of their works, just go to our show notes, you will have links to natalia’s work to how you can find and watch the in between Robie’s film and how you can support them in the efforts that they do. And if you are a border person, or if you have a question for us to address on hyphenation, all you have to do is email us at hyp@kqed.org. But until next time, Take care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "The US-Mexico borderlands are often depicted in media and by politicians as a dangerous ground zero for crime and violence. But is this an accurate image of the place thousands of Americans call home? This week on Hyphenación, Host Xorje Olivares gathers with two other fronterizas, artist Natalia Ventura and filmmaker Robie Flores, who were all born and bred along the border. Together they ask, “Is the border we see on TV, real life?”",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The US-Mexico border has been a central issue in recent decades of American politics. The southern borderlands are often depicted in media and by politicians as a dangerous ground zero for crime and violence. But is this an accurate image of the place thousands of Americans call home? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gathers with two other fronterizas, artist natalia ventura and filmmaker Robie Flores, who were born and bred along the border. Together they ask, “Is the border we see on TV real life?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5546019730&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/J9TwPY_bVwo'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/J9TwPY_bVwo'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">natalia ventura (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nataliaventura.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artwork\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/nataliaxventura/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.friendshippark.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friendship Park\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Robie Flores (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theinbetween-film.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ambiente Films\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/documentaries/the-in-between/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watch ‘The In Between’ on PBS\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/robieflores/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it turns out that JD Vance and I have something in common. We both paid a visit to my hometown on the Texas-Mexico border earlier this year. Surprise! Now the VP was in Eagle Pass doing the kind of political parade that my neighbors and I had seen for years. Because regardless of party affiliation, elected officials almost always do this kind of thing when it comes to these border stops. First, they take a tour of the area, which mostly centers on the incomplete border fence. Then they make some passionate remarks chock full of buzzwords tied to border security and immigration, cause you never know if the base is listening. And at some point there’s a photo op with border patrol and local law enforcement because y’all, these DC folks didn’t wear their good jeans and belt buckles for nothing! Now, if you don’t believe me, just comb through the hours of cable news footage that exists. Fox News, MSNBC, CNN– all of these news outlets have practically set up shop in Eagle Pass these past couple of years as my hometown has become more politicized. And honestly, it feels like they’re playing out this National Geographic wildlife documentary fantasy. Migrant caravans, undocumented immigrants, drug and human trafficking. Okay, given that we are talking about an international border, some of that is true. But I can only speak to what I know and what I see. And most of that is just mostly going to Kohl’s department store with my mother or grabbing a mango nada with my sister at our local paleteria. Not exactly a ratings draw, but which of these is a more accurate representation of the border?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorje Olivares, and today I’m asking, is the border from TV, real life? This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, talking about the border, I’m getting very homesick and the best way for me to address homesickness is to listen to music. So I’m going to ask each of my guests what song reminds them of the border. Because for me, it is a song by Tejano artist, Gary Hobbs, and it’s called Las Miradas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Las Miradas by Gary Hobbs plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is fantastic. But excited to first welcome to the program, natalia ventura, who is a community organizer and an artist out of San Diego, California. Who uses her art as a tool for social change. So, natalia, thank you so much for joining us today. And I wanna ask you about what song reminds you of home or the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks so much for having me. My song is not a traditional borderlands song, but I think this kind of speaks to, you know, the many cultures that exist here. My mom is from Tijuana, but she was like an 80s New Wave fanatic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love it!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she very much embraced the music on the other side and loved New Wave. And so a song that really reminds me of home is Our House by Madness, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our House by Madness plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because I grew up on a cul-de-sac and just the lyrics just really remind me of her. She always played that one growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for joining us and for sharing that. Also excited to welcome to the show Robie Flores, who is a filmmaker. Her latest film called “The In-Between” is now available for you to watch and I highly recommend it, especially because it showcases my hometown of Eagle Pass because Robie is a classmate of mine and we’ve known each other for quite some time. So excited to have her and excited to see her and to know what her answer is to the song that reminds her of the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, my God, I’m so excited to say this because I think it’s going to take us all back to like morning pep rallies and cake walks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Robie Flores:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think, is it Fito Olivares, La Vibora…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Cobra! Yeah, it’s called a Cobra and it starts with It’s called La Coba and it starts with…da-da-da, if it resembles a rattlesnake\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Cora by Fito Olivares plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s so classic EP that’s like, it always was just kind of embarrassing to me because I felt so small town but then it’s just so good and every time you hear it we’re just like get up and dance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes me happy being around other border people. I feel like we speak a special language and I’m happy for us to share that language with everybody right now, especially because the border is such an expansive place. We are talking about two specific areas right now. Eagle Pass, South Texas and San Diego, but it spans miles upon miles. So I wanna start with you, natalia, about what your specific border experience was like, has been like, just so folks can get a sense as to how you’re approaching today’s topic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, so I think something that people who aren’t from the border don’t realize is that even within this border identity, there’s so many layers of privilege and experiences and intersections. I feel I grew up very privileged in my border crossing experience. I was born on this side as a U.S. citizen and I crossed with a global entry pass. I grew up visiting my grandparents every weekend, just being able to cross the border to enjoy like food and culture and life on the weekends over there. And then I would, you know, do my schooling during the week on this side and grew up on this side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmhmm, I want to ask you, Robie, because natalia hits it at a point that a lot of us understand, which is sometimes families on the other side, there’s a lot of cultural activities that happen on the other side that we want to show ourselves, especially if we don’t have those on the American side of things. So what was your border experience like growing up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, similar to natalia, that it was, you know, it was like very lucky to be born on the American side, but it’s just, it’s such a, like on the border, it’s, just there’s resources that everybody on both sides that can cross back and forth use and do it. You know, people on either side go to school or work or, you, know, the doctor or like after school activities, every day. Ao like for me it was like I went to school in Eagle Pass but every day after school I went into dance class and piano class like my mom would pick me up and I change in the car and like put my medias on and like as we’re going over the bridge and um and it felt like I was just kind of like getting into this like different identity of like, now I’m a la bailarina and stuff. And so I’d like go to dance class every day after school and then like to my abuela’s house. And I’d wait for my parents to be done with their errands then we’d like take the bridge back home. And that was like every day. And then on the weekends, we go to, you know, my abuela’s house and then we do the carne asadas. You know, that was my border life experience. But with everybody that I was around, it was pretty typical. And so. I assumed that if you lived on the border you could just do that. And it really wasn’t until I started this movie that I was like, oh, you need a visa if you’re on the other side. Like, I didn’t understand that. I didn’t know that because the border that you and I had when we were kids, it was so fluid. And so that’s what I thought that it’s just on the border. This is just how it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was, I was trying to explain to folks here, I’d say, you know, some folks who lived across the the river in Piedras Negras, Coahuila, that they would come to high school and they say, Well, how would they do that? I don’t know, they would just come to school. And we knew that, you knew that they were the kids that lived in Piedras. And I still to this day can’t really tell you why that is. But I love that it was indicative of the porous nature. Like we were one very large community, the Piedra Negras-Eagle Pass community. natalia, would you say that the San Diego-Tijuana community feels like that or maybe a little different in your experience? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It sounds like Eagle Pass is a little bit of a smaller town. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: It is.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here, San Ysidro is the busiest border crossing in the world. So it’s not as easy to just cross quickly. It takes time, you gotta kind of plan around it. But we still had such a cross-border community. I also had the kids in high school who crossed every day to go to school. My mom was one of those. She crossed every day to go school her whole life. So it’s very much a part of our lives as well, even though it’s a bit of a bigger city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’d like to also say that like kids in Eagle Pass for us also crossed to go to school on the Mexican side like it wasn’t just like Mexicans coming you know the people on the Mexican site coming for everything in the U.S. Like everybody on the Eagle Pass side was going to Piedras for also you know, the doctor, for school. So like, it’s just it’s super fluid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I appreciate you making the distinction that it’s not just one side always coming to the other, that it goes both ways. Because growing up, even though we didn’t necessarily have immediate family relatives that lived in Piedras, that’s where I would go to the dentist.Um, but one thing I have not had a chance to do on the border and it’s not part of my border experience just yet is to do work that showcases the border. And each of you are doing such great work that highlights the fronteriza experience. So I want to start with you, natalia about, uh your navigation of art on the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah so for me it really started like once I left the Borderlands for college. I went up to Orange County for my undergrad and I didn’t realize how much the border was a part of my life until I left. Like even just saying I was Latina or Mexican wasn’t enough like I had to talk about my border experience in order to really speak to my Latinidad. Um, and so once I graduated. I came back home with the intention of like really rooting myself even deeper in the borderlands and to do art that was focused on uplifting my community. And so I started doing a lot of workright where the border wall meets the Pacific Ocean. It’s like the westernmost point of the border and it’s also home to a place called Friendship Park where families traditionally are able– are supposed to be able to come together and meet each other, families and friends who aren’t able to cross the border because of their citizenship status. And this is a place that has been under attack over the last few decades because of our government’s opinions and stances on border crossers and migration. And so when I started working with them, the construction of 30-foot walls was beginning at the park under the Biden administration, but it was a project started by the Trump administration. And I did a lot of organizing work with them bringing art to their activism work and using art as like a tactic of non-violence to fight against militarization at the Park. Cause this is supposed to be a place that symbolizes cross-border unity and friendship. And it was very much not that anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmhmm\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b> Some of the interventions that I’ve done with others include hanging banners on the border wall. “Parque si, muro no” is one of our slogans that we use to say we want to park here, not a wall. And I climbed up on the border wall to hang that. And then there’s also a planter that holds white sage, which is a native plant here in Southern California and Northern Baja. And we hung it on top of the border fence to kind of signify the power of this, you know, native plant, native species, and how it overcomes borders. And there’s two sculptural hands that are coming from on top of those planters touching each other to kind symbolize the human connection that we hope will win over these borders. It’s really about reconnecting to our humanity, reconnecting the land, so that’s kind of what my practice is focused on right now. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mhmm, I wanna pull this word that natalia just used, reconnecting, because it feels like that was at the focus, it was a focus point for you in this film, “The In-Between”, Robie, which I wanna share a trailer for listeners…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[ Trailer ] I must have crossed this bridge a million times, but the first time I remember was when my brothers, the twins, Mars and Alex were born. But Mars is gone now, and all I’m left with is his camera. Now that I’m back here, can I find my memories of us? Can I find you? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Robie, tell us about “The In-Between” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ay güey, Well, now you’re making me cry. This is just so surreal because, um, uh, yeah, I, I wanted to go back and make this movie in 2016. I was, I was in New York working at Bloomberg at the time. Um, and I was uh, you know, in the newsroom, I was working next to the news editors while I was like editing on another show and it was just these constant sound bites about the border and how dangerous it is and how we need walls and all these things, and it just sounded so foreign to me. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was just like, what? It’s really chill. I mean, at least the one that I know. Like it’s like. It’s really not like they were making it sound like an action movie. And I was like, “No, let me let me show you like, I’ll invite you like come with me and I’ll show you the cool parts.” You know, and that’s, that’s what the movie was, I just wanted to invite people home and show that. But at the core of it, I wanted it to be, you know, a visit to the border for everybody that hasn’t had the privilege of getting to experience it yet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like if you look up border on IMDB and all the movies that come out with border are always like the same stories. And I looked it up. They all are like. You know, like trauma and, you know, violence and carteles and like, you know, whatever, all the same shit. And like, we, we know that, but for us that are from the border, like we know. That border frontera, I means like carne asada means cumbia means like, you know. Like the identity crisis of not being ni de aquí, ni de alla. Yeah, it’s just like, that’s the real border crisis in my mind, you know? And it’s like, and no one’s talking about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like I think I didn’t realize as I was a child because there were other people around me who felt this too, but there also weren’t of just like leaving the walls of your house where you speak Spanglish to like going to school where It was discouraged to speak any Spanish. Learning from a really young age to cross borders, even when you’re not physically crossing the border or when you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>being from like two different worlds and not really seeing that in the media around you. I think maybe Hannah Montana was like the closest like \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, duality like…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Robie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she said the best of both worlds, which we are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But this is something that I’ve been like realizing, slowly realizing and is what our mission is with this movie and like the work that we do is that there isn’t like, if you think about like, for example, New York and New Yorkers and stuff, like there’s a culture and everybody knows it. Everybody around the world knows it, like we know the accents, like we the fucking baseball hats, Like, we know, like… You know, we know all the nuances of it. And like, yet when someone makes like a movie or writes a book about New York or like a song, no one’s like, but what about the crime? Like, why isn’t, you know, like, but isn’t New York dangerous? You know what, like we do that about the border all the time!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mhmm. We’re going to take a short little break, but we’ll be back with some more Hyphenación after this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I still get a chance to go home, maybe two to three\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">times a year and a couple of years ago, I went home for Thanksgiving and we celebrated at my primo’s ranch. He owns quite a bit of land, literally about maybe a few yards away from the Rio Grande. So we were pretty much at what you would call ground zero. And while we were there, my primo wife said, Hey, would you like a tour? Just since you haven’t seen it, we said, sure. Do you know, I saw some of the things that have been shown on TV. So saw the barbed wire, saw the dozens of national guardsmen, saw the mounds of clothing and the artifacts that have been left behind by folks making their migratory journey here into the United States. And even though I was a little bit taken aback, like, oh my God, I I wasn’t expecting to see all of this. My prima, asi como si nada, was just like saying hi to all the National Guardsmen that she sees every day and passing by all of these things that have now become, part of her day-to-day. So it does get into this notion of the normalization of what we do see on the border. And so I’m curious for you, natalia, since you do live still on the Border, what has become normalized for you of what you see? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, as you just said, it’s very normal to see barbed wire, to see construction projects constantly at the border, um, border patrollers, um, multiple like law enforcement agencies. Um, it’s normal to see people making their journeys. And all of it is very much a part of our culture here. At this point we’ve accepted the border as such a permanent strong thing as a society when in reality it’s so, it’s been a blip in our human history and we need to remember that and we need to move towards that again. Like, for example, the border walls at Friendship Park in the 70s, when the park got inaugurated by the first lady, Pat Nixon, it was just a string of barbed wire and she had her Secret Service cut it so she could greet the people on the Tijuana side. And she said, “I hope there won’t be a fence too long here.” And over the decades, it’s become a 30 foot galvanized steel double wall. Most people are just used to seeing it at this point, which is sad because it shouldn’t be that way. It’s a place where so much of the world just kind of comes together because migrants who come here are coming from all over the world, not just Latin America. And so we have a real opportunity to have kinship with people from all over the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to focus in on this word kinship, can you tell me about the beauty of working at friendship Park?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, I have learned so many beautiful examples of how to care radically for each other, even when we are not family, even if we’ve only known each other for a split second. The way that people who live here really care for the people on their migratory journeys is so inspiring to me and it’s something that I’ve tried to like embody more and more. When I’m driving around near the border and I see someone walking on the street, I know they’re probably on their journey and I will stop and offer them water or food. You know, it’s just something that we need to ingrain more in if you are living near the border because this is a part of that life and really practicing like treating somebody like they are your kin. I think is like the answer to so much injustice and problems around us. And it’s how we like can survive these conditions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also in Eagle Pass have a connection to this idea of friendship because there is an international friendship parade and day that happens in Eagle Pass where we do meet up with folks in Piedras and there’s this huge celebration and Robie I love that the in-between starts and ends with imagery that is at least to me because I know it happens for a friendship day and also for 4th of July but tell me about your reasoning for showcasing this particular moment and day. That we celebrate on the border. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it just like it was so funny it was the first thing I shot when I went home. It was so funny because everybody like back in New York and like this like the center of news is like freaking out about everything that’s going out on the border and like and so I’m like so like living in that for so long that I go home and I am being like, oh my God, how is everybody going to be like. I came back and they were still doing it, you know, and it’s like and they still do it now with all this shit going on. You know, like they’re still doing all the binational celebrations. Like to see the wide shot of this is like, this is what we don’t get to see, Everybody’s hanging out here under like the same beautiful sky. And like, and our river is so narrow that you can literally say hi to each other and hang out and stuff and and and it’s really beautiful. It’s just like, you know, this is our culture. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do want to just quickly say, I do, every time I bring someone home for a visit\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I always take them during friendship week because of the Noches Mexicanas festival that you’re talking about, which interestingly enough, it’s called Noches Mexicanas on the American side.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to further paint this picture that Robie was showing. It all takes place in a park that is beyond the border fence. So it is in this, like, weird purgatory section where it’s in between the border fence and the Rio Grande, but it has always been there. So it’s everybody with their puestecitos selling the funnel cakes, their espiropapas, the raspas, like the I was frescas. It all happens right there and it is such a beautiful reflection of community and just everything that We have. Again, this culture that we have to offer on the border, which I do want to end with this one question to each of you, which is, what is your favorite part about being from the border? I’ll say that for me, it is every time I go home, every time, I go to the border. I am allowed to remember the core of who I am and like I feel like I’ll never be able to lose that joy and pride of border identity. I want to start with you, natalia. What is your favorite part?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, very similar. Just being able to go to Tijuana, get the world’s best tacos, eat some nieves, and just like really tap into those childhood memories, you know, just being a kid, visiting my family, enjoying life. There’s so much beauty and color in Tijuana and it’s hustling and bustling and I love it so much. And it’s such a privilege to be able to just go enjoy that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. What about your Robie?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love just like the remix that like we create, like we’re like the hybridity, the hyphenación, you know, like I like for us, like, I think that we’re, like so beautifully defined. When I was like in New York, all my Mexican friends that were there from Mexico City were like, nachos aren’t a Mexican food. And then, I was always like constantly being shamed for not being Mexican enough. But then I’m like, no, they’re fucking Frontera food and you’re welcome because they’re amazing and everybody has them. And this is what happens at the border. That’s one example of all these amazing things that happen at the border when these two beautiful cultures collide and influence each other. And from there, we have margaritas and Caesar salad and burritos and so many more things. And that’s the beauty of the fluidity and that I’m so proud of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I feel like the the greatest takeaway is that there’s four great exports from the border each of us and the nacho. Well I want to think each of you for for joining me for this wonderful conversation about home Because at the center of it it really is about home for for all three of us and for a lot of people who are. So thank you both for joining me today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. Thank you for having us, Jorge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to let folks know if you want to look at each of their works, just go to our show notes, you will have links to natalia’s work to how you can find and watch the in between Robie’s film and how you can support them in the efforts that they do. And if you are a border person, or if you have a question for us to address on hyphenation, all you have to do is email us at hyp@kqed.org. But until next time, Take care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immigrants to the U.S. have all heard about the American Dream — that in this land of opportunity, anyone can make it regardless of class. People come from all over the world to chase this dream, but it seems like the land of opportunities is not providing many of them anymore. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares speaks with journalist and author Paola Ramos (\u003cem>Defectors\u003c/em>) and fellow journalist Brian De Los Santos to explore the questions “What do Latinos actually want from this country? And can it give it to us?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7100365102&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/5j6YUeqbHZw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Paola Ramos (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/paoramos/\">Instagram, \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/741645/defectors-by-paola-ramos/\">\u003cem>Defectors\u003c/em>\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brian De Los Santos (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bdelossantos1/?hl=en\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003cbr>\n[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah, the American dream. How we’ve heard of her for generations. Well, I should say versions of her, because this is the version that I grew up with. Well for starters, I’d be a homeowner. I’m thinking a spacious three-bedroom, two-bathroom in a nice neighborhood with some killer curb appeal. I’d then have that weird, not a given average of 2.3 kids, each of which would probably go to an overpriced prestigious school. Even Yeah, point three one because I love my kids equally. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And me, well, I’d be a lawyer, or a doctor, or some other career that my parents could gush about to their compadres. Oh mijo, fíjate, he’s doing really well for himself, we’re very proud of him.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, clearly I decided to emphasize the dream part of this American dream scenario, because that’s definitely not my life. I’m a longtime renter, I’m a dog parent, and even though I don’t save lives like a doctor would, I’d like to think I change lives with my podcasts. And I’m okay with that! Because I think I’m doing pretty well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that doesn’t really negate the fact that I was conditioned to want a lot more for myself, by my parents, by society, by the culture around me. Because to be American means to have certain expectations for yourself and for your country, when it comes to pursuing personal and professional successes. I should be able to do this. I should able to afford that. Regardless of my race, religion, gender, lo que sea. In essence, life should feel easy in this very powerful nation. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that hasn’t always been realistic for a lot of folks, especially in the face of institutional racism and poverty. And with unemployment still high, bills mounting up and individual rights seemingly in limbo. Does any of that sound like the promise of America? I’m Xorge Olivares, and I’m asking What do we really want from America? And what is it able to give it to us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, I just gave an idea about what my dream house would seem like if I was able to pursue this American dream. And I’m curious about what my guests would like to live in. And I am starting off with my first guest, Paola Ramos. She is a journalist and an author mostly of Latine experiences, the most recent being called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Defectors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, which talks about the rise of the far right Latino community. Paola, thank you so much for joining me today. And I’m curious, what would your house look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I envision it in the West Village of New York City. I envision a brownstone. I envision, like, wood floors, high ceilings, like open windows. I would be okay in that setting with two bedrooms. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And maybe like I can live close to a park, forget that I’m in the city, but then when I want to, I’m the city. Like that’s the dream for sure. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m talking to you… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I might steal this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b>…\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">from a\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Small apartment in Brooklyn, New York, no complaints, but one day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the West Village. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We’re also joined by Brian De Los Santos who is an LA-based journalist and a proud Angelino. So I have to ask, Brian, is your dream house in Los Angeles?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hell yeah.100%. And I would say Malibu, but you know what happened there with the fires early this year. So I gotta rethink my dream house, you know. My first instinct is the beach, the waves, some above that California marijuana. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vibes all around. I love the beach. I’m a Leo. I get I love warm days. But the second part to that answer is I have a condo that has two stories. It’s out in the desert. Unfortunately, I don’t live there, like, I don’t live there right now because I’m in LA. But it’s, yeah, I would say I was able to get a little bit of the American dream, but it’s not, I’m not there right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you both for your answers and thank you for joining me for this conversation because I think there’s something to say about the American dream and it somehow being synonymous with this notion of upward mobility and that also kind of resonates with immigration stories, migration stories, like why most folks came to this country to begin with. And so I wanna focus there first. And I wanna start with you, Paola, if you don’t mind maybe sharing your family’s migration story and how this notion of America even first came to be for you all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to my parents, for them, it was really around grasping here a very basic principle and freedom and right that didn’t exist where they came from, which is back then the basic principle of freedom of press and freedom of speech. So my mom is a Cuban exile, comes from a family of Cuban immigrants. My grandfather was a journalist in Cuba, first started with the revolution, started with Castro and sort of two years into Castro’s sort of rise in power, my grandfather ends up being imprisoned because he was writing articles against el Castrismo. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My father leaves Mexico at a time when Televisa, the, of course, massive Mexican media empire, at that point in his career, this is mid-’80s, they start restricting his radio pieces and his radio stories. And so he decides to leave. And so both of my parents come to the United States looking for that, looking to freely express themselves. And looking for freedom of press. My dad who then ended up becoming a news anchor for Univision, he would always tell me the biggest privilege and power you will ever have is your pen, this ability to write stories, to hold people in power accountable, the ability to ask questions. And I think that I sort of grew up with that understanding that were I ever to walk into those spaces of power, like that was my duty, my duty was that. And so I think that is the sort of environment and the conversations that I grew up in. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re now, of course, existing in a very different reality as journalists, and so this is something that I wake up with thinking about every single day. Slowly, these rights that I grew up with, they’re slowly eroding in front of us every single day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm, Brian, how did your family approach their migration to this country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I came with my parents. My dad came here first, and then I came with my mom in 1992. And I think for them, the American dream was just financial freedom, any little bit of it. They were leaving Mexico in an era where it was everyone’s financially challenged and there was no way out and they were seeing opportunities happen here in the late 80s and that’s what inspired them to come here, and so my parents are Christian pastors. And so they feel their success is tied with the religion, whether that is establishing a church of their own or that is serving in some way. So it really isn’t just about financial success or their home. FYI, my parents were undocumented when they came into this country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They always told me you know work hard you’re gonna get something bigger in return you’re going to be successful at things and I think that impacted me so much when I was a little kid that that’s what I thought was gonna happen and I hoped that would happen. They ended up buying a house. The market crash happened in 2007, 2008. And they were impacted. And I think that’s when they realized, oh, this shit is hard. You know, this is, you can be an immigrant, you can a good immigrant, you can do everything by the book and it’ll still be, you will still fail. And I do believe millennials, no shade to anyone else… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughte\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>r\u003c/em>] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … and no shade to any other generation, but I think millennials are redefining what that American dream is. Like I am talking to my friends about like, they’re not getting pregnant, some couples are like, “I don’t care about buying a house anymore. I want to be stable and I want to go on vacations with my family.” Do I care about a home? I don’t know. So we’ll see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like this idea of the shifting tides of the American dream. I mean, you addressed it. I talked about it in the intro. I don’t have any of the things that I thought would be part of the American dream that I grew up with. And Paola have you had conversations either with your friends, other family members about how what you’re pursuing just doesn’t seem to be identical to what they had in mind for you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I mean, I’m thinking of what I was thinking when I was five. And I think I think that’s the thing. This American dream sort of like corrupts your mind, you know, and it pushes you to believe that you’re supposed to meet certain certain measures. Like, I thought that by the time I was 37, which is what I am, I thought that I would be married to a man. I’m a lesbian. If I had that, I would be, you know, yes, like living in this house. And I think for many of us millennials, we’re understanding that it is extremely hard to achieve that in this country. In this country that sells you that this is a country of possibilities that sells you the message that you can do it all, which sure, we’re all trying as hard as we can, but I think what we’re coming to terms with is that at what cost, no? And that’s the question. I believe that I can achieve all these things, but I feel like I’m kind of selling my soul to the system, no?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I look around me, and I’m speaking from a point of immense privilege. But when I’m out there doing, you know, interviews and of course, more than anything, like talking to, like, mixed status families and immigrants, more often than not, I feel like I’m kind of sensing this big shift right now, where this American dream and the idea of it is dimming, because sure, we are sort of checking the measures, the economic measures. No, we’re- we’re having better opportunities than our parents, upward mobility is a real thing, but then the question of like, are we still truly respected, right? Like are our rights truly being respected? Like is dignity, you know the dignity that this country promises in that dream, like does that fully exist? You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So is it a myth, the American dream, or is it just evolving to a place that we can’t quite define it yet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I low-key think it’s a myth, and I’ll let people process that by their own. As Paola was talking about her own privilege, I also need to check myself because I have DACA, which is a work permit, and sometimes like Paola, when I’m interviewing mixed-status families, I’m like, I feel the privilege that I hold in this space, whether it’s in media or whether it is just having financial stability. And so for me, it’s a myth in other theories, in other ways that we see out there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, I think that’s like the key question that we’re wrestling with as a nation and in American politics right now is like, you know, are we truly or are we all headed towards this like multiracial, pluralistic, diverse democracy, or at our core, is it always the case that we keep going back to roots of this country, right, which is a country that was founded upon the principles of white supremacy. And it is a country that every turn, every time it can, it has oppressed and oppressed and oppressed every attempt to sort of diverge from those origins. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think that’s kind of what we’re wrestling with as a country. And I think not to bring it back to politics, but I think that’s why perhaps the 2024 election once again was such a shock for so many people because it was like. Here we are again, we had an opportunity to elect a black women president, and yet again, we couldn’t do it. No, here we are again, we’ve had multiple attempts at passing comprehensive immigration reform, and yeah, we don’t do it. No, Here we again, separating families. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think it’s almost like, at some point, we have to be real with what we’re dealing with. And if it is true, in fact, that are we or not a country of immigrants, like are we or not, you know, like all of these have for so many years, like shaped the way that we think of this country, right? Which is, yes, it’s a country full of dreams and the American dream. And perhaps, perhaps we’re not.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’re going to take a short little break and we’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politics is cyclical, some of these stories we’ve been hearing about for generations for, you know, multiple administrations. Like, because the timeline seems like it’s repeating itself, do we think that’s why the American dream continues on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I’m kind of going through my own personal crisis in this era. I think for me also, my personal story is as an undocumented immigrant who has a work permit that could go away any second, I’m always on survival mode. Like whether I have a house or whether I own a car or not. I don’t know what’s gonna happen with my future. And the pathway to a green card to citizenship is not there for me. I have to go through different loopholes to try to get one. And even though I have an immigration lawyer and we’re trying to do what we can for my case, it’s not the easiest one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>XO: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Paola what do you think?\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, look, I think so long as this country continues to present us with opportunities, you know opportunities that are better here than those where our family’s left behind, the dream will continue to exist. However, I do think that we are in the midst of a breaking point where, at least I’m finding as I’m talking to people, people that aren’t being deported. I’m talking about people that are choosing to leave on their own terms. And I think there’s a type of empowerment and liberation that is coming from families that are kind of looking at themselves and at their journey in this country and that are saying, you know what, I can’t do it anymore. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, I’ve been meeting a significant amount of people that are making that decision and I’ve had following them around the country. And I’ve done following them across the border. And I’m talking to you after just coming back from Panama and Columbia, where I was able to talk to, for example, like a group of 30 Venezuelans many of them were waiting along the US-Mexico border in limbo for a couple of months, and all of whom decided at some point in the last couple of weeks that they couldn’t take it anymore. That it was not worth it for them to live in a country. That would criminalize them and deport them to another country simply because of their tattoos. And so in those conversations, they chose that their dignity at this point was more worth it than living in a country that was giving them the bare minimum. But then I think I mentioned that it’s a breaking point because then what really stuck with me is that when I asked them, is this dream replaceable? They said, yes. And so what happens when you leave the dream and you sort of start looking for it elsewhere? And I think that’s kind of where we’re at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, let’s get to the question, which is at the heart of the episode, which is what do you want from America? And what do think it can give you? Brian, what is it that you want?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, damn. You put it so deeply. Almost got me teary-eyed over it right now. The one thing that I come back to is, as an immigrant in this country, I just want to be treated like a human. I don’t want to be seen as a policy story. I don’t want to be seen as a tax ID number. I don’t want to be seen as anything else but just like, oh, he’s a dude who wants to do this and that and is talented. And I think that’s where, you know, I could see the American dream be about as a human and be treated as such, but sometimes I feel like a number in this country. So if I had a little magic wand and be like, Brian, what do you want out of this country is people respect each other and are more empathetic, even though that’s a controversial topic out there that empathy is not a thing. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I want to be treated more humanly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like that. Paola, What would yours be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have to agree. I mean, I think it’s, yeah, just to have this country love you back entirely. And I think the expectation was that at this time in history, you know, just talking about myself, as queer people in this diverse nation, the expectation is that we would be more loved. And I don’t think we’re necessarily, we’re definitely not there yet. And so I think I expect like a very basic level of humanity and love. And I expect that in these moments of transition, I expect this country to really truly uphold its democratic norms and institutions that allow for these dreams to be alive. You know what I’m saying? So like at a time when there’s so much uncertainty, My expectation, and I’m not a religious person, but I pray for this, is that those core democratic norms are unshakable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">witnessed part of this transition, especially as it’s documented in your book \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Defectors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, because it’s talking about the rise or at least now folks are becoming a bit more aware of the conservative wing of the Latino community. So if you can share a little bit about maybe what they told you about their dreams and desires of what this country should give them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story is that we believed, that as Latinos, our American dream looked a certain way. I think what we’re also understanding is that for those over 45% of Latinos that voted for Trump, I think they are showing us that. The American dream can be corrupted. Knowing that there’s a point in this journey where like individualism and capitalism and our sort of ambition to make it in this country, our ambition to assimilate, our ambition to attain power, our mission to be at the top, that can lead a lot of people, including Latinos and including immigrants and including black and brown people, that can leave you to a more corrupted darker version of the American Dream. Now that can be a brown person to find something extremely appealing in Trump’s version of the American dream, which is an American dream that is whiter, that is less threatened by diversity. And I think A, is just like sitting with that reality, but then understanding, and I think that’s kind of like the more interesting part, like posing the question to all the like Latino insurrectionists that I’ve interviewed and the Latino Proud Boys and sort of the border vigilantes that find something so appealing in Trumps like, version of the American Dream, the question that I now have for them is like, today in Trump’s America, how free are you? Did you attain that power? Did he give you anything? Do you have more now than you did back then? And I think slowly, perhaps, the answer is no, right? But I think the illusion of that dream is more powerful, of course, than the reality. And that’s what I believe, I would assume, is what many of them are coming to terms \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think that the American dream can only exist in competition to someone else’s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s how we’ve typically defined the dream. And I think if we define the dream as a dream of possibilities, then yes. But I think we define a dream as the dream is based on rights, and freedoms, and justice, and movements, then it’s different. And I that’s why when you ask this question, people are going to give you two different versions. Yes, I attained the dream of possibility. But no, I didn’t attain the dream of rights and freedoms. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think because we’re so used to talking about this in economic terms and in the frame of upward mobility, I think that’s where people do get threatened, because then the dream means that you’re taking something away from the other person, that you are climbing up the ladder, but not the other person. And I think, unfortunately, if we’ve learned something within American politics and within Latino politics, is that we too can be greedy, and that we, too, many times don’t want the other immigrants to climb up the ladder the same way that we did. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that is a harsh reality of where we are, you know? That in this country, we’re so used to working so hard to attain that dream and they make it so hard to do it that we then become so corrupted that we don’t want the same opportunities for that other person. And that, that is something that is, that does happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and I think it’s because some people will be like oh well I made it and I’m fine and why aren’t you making it. I’m like honey, we’re not the same people, you know. There was a conversation at my dinner table. Mom, I’m sorry, but I’m going to say it here. Um, she saw a video on YouTube, got her news from there. And she’s like, why are these immigrants coming in this way? They’re like invading the country. I’m like, mom, you crossed the border with me in 1992. What are you talking about? And I had to check her. I’m, like, you cannot be like talking about this news that you got from YouTube that you don’t, I don’t know what channel she got it from. With all these bad references. I’m like, you are a leader in your community. You cannot talk about immigrants this way. You are one. And so just going back to the fact that Paola brought up, some people will pull up the ladder away from the next person that’s coming in. It’s happening. And so for me, it’s just wild to see these things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Brian, you actually had a chance to do something which I haven’t had a change to do, which is ask your parents directly about this question on the American dream that, at least my parents sold me first. But how did that conversation go? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was a little scared to ask them because I’m like, am I gonna be frazzled by their answer? But my dad kept it really real. He’s like, we know that the policies or even people have treated each other badly in this country. And he knows it hasn’t been easy. He knows that he’s had his own personal hurdles and at his church, he’s also seen other people’s hurdles. And we’ve seen people get deported, we’ve seen people. Lose themselves in this country. And so what he says, I feel like this is a place that everyone can come to, but we know it’s hard and not everyone can make it here. And, I feel like I’m still happy being here. Like he’s, he says he’s not going to bag on the US. He’s not going to talk bad about the US, but he says. He understands how people experience the life here. And he’s happy where he’s at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Paola, have you had a chance to talk to your parents about this or saving it for Thanksgiving? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I think, look, they have, I would say, different ideas. So I think my dad is someone that fundamentally believes that the dream is alive and that it is worth sticking around to see where it ends. No, and like I said, so long as, and I think that’s how he would measure it, not so long, as his children, which is myself and my brother, have more opportunities than him. Which we did. We went to American colleges and we were able to sort of enter the English-speaking media world in a way that he has never been able to. So long as those things are real, I think my dad will always say it’s worth it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mother left the United States two years ago, so my mom now lives in Spain. She’s in Madrid. And I think that’s given her a lot of perspective, not to be able to see the US from afar, particularly the US that we’re sort of evolving into and turning into. And I mean, she would probably say, if I were to ask her, like, would you ever come back and live here on your choice voluntarily? I would assume that she would say no. Because I think then in Spain, she has found a certain like peace. She also is a journalist. So I think kind of like leaving the crazy world of American journalism and like the newsrooms. I also think maybe that has something to do with it. No, she’s not as crazy as dude, but I think there’s a level of calmness and peace. Maybe there’s something to not living in the sort of day-to-day competitiveness, sort of like all of us hustling. And I think she’s content. And I think in her eyes, she would probably say that it’s perhaps… Attainable elsewhere, not just in the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna thank both of you for joining me for this. It really was an existential conversation about, like, what are we doing\u003c/span>\u003cb>.\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so I could not have thought of two better people to have this conversation. So thank you so much for joining me today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. This was like therapy, honestly. So I’m good for the week. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Canceling my session this week. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Literally!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to remind our listeners, if you want to send us your thoughts about what the American Dream is, or what your version of the American dream is, please send us an email at HYP at kqed.org, or if you want to sent us an idea for an upcoming episode. But until then, hasta luego.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003cbr>\nMixing and mastering by Christopher Beale.\u003cbr>\nJen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker.\u003cbr>\nThanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan.\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support.\u003cbr>\nOkay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Immigrants to the U.S. have all heard about the American Dream-- that in this land of opportunity, anyone can make it regardless of class. People come from all over the world to chase this dream, but it seems like the land of opportunity is not providing many of them anymore. This week on Hyphenación, Host Xorje Olivares speaks with journalist and author Paola Ramos (Defectors) and fellow journalist Brian De Los Santos to explore the questions “What do Latinos actually want from this country? Can it give it to us?”",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immigrants to the U.S. have all heard about the American Dream — that in this land of opportunity, anyone can make it regardless of class. People come from all over the world to chase this dream, but it seems like the land of opportunities is not providing many of them anymore. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares speaks with journalist and author Paola Ramos (\u003cem>Defectors\u003c/em>) and fellow journalist Brian De Los Santos to explore the questions “What do Latinos actually want from this country? And can it give it to us?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7100365102&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/5j6YUeqbHZw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/5j6YUeqbHZw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Paola Ramos (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/paoramos/\">Instagram, \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/741645/defectors-by-paola-ramos/\">\u003cem>Defectors\u003c/em>\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brian De Los Santos (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bdelossantos1/?hl=en\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah, the American dream. How we’ve heard of her for generations. Well, I should say versions of her, because this is the version that I grew up with. Well for starters, I’d be a homeowner. I’m thinking a spacious three-bedroom, two-bathroom in a nice neighborhood with some killer curb appeal. I’d then have that weird, not a given average of 2.3 kids, each of which would probably go to an overpriced prestigious school. Even Yeah, point three one because I love my kids equally. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And me, well, I’d be a lawyer, or a doctor, or some other career that my parents could gush about to their compadres. Oh mijo, fíjate, he’s doing really well for himself, we’re very proud of him.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, clearly I decided to emphasize the dream part of this American dream scenario, because that’s definitely not my life. I’m a longtime renter, I’m a dog parent, and even though I don’t save lives like a doctor would, I’d like to think I change lives with my podcasts. And I’m okay with that! Because I think I’m doing pretty well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that doesn’t really negate the fact that I was conditioned to want a lot more for myself, by my parents, by society, by the culture around me. Because to be American means to have certain expectations for yourself and for your country, when it comes to pursuing personal and professional successes. I should be able to do this. I should able to afford that. Regardless of my race, religion, gender, lo que sea. In essence, life should feel easy in this very powerful nation. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that hasn’t always been realistic for a lot of folks, especially in the face of institutional racism and poverty. And with unemployment still high, bills mounting up and individual rights seemingly in limbo. Does any of that sound like the promise of America? I’m Xorge Olivares, and I’m asking What do we really want from America? And what is it able to give it to us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, I just gave an idea about what my dream house would seem like if I was able to pursue this American dream. And I’m curious about what my guests would like to live in. And I am starting off with my first guest, Paola Ramos. She is a journalist and an author mostly of Latine experiences, the most recent being called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Defectors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, which talks about the rise of the far right Latino community. Paola, thank you so much for joining me today. And I’m curious, what would your house look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I envision it in the West Village of New York City. I envision a brownstone. I envision, like, wood floors, high ceilings, like open windows. I would be okay in that setting with two bedrooms. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And maybe like I can live close to a park, forget that I’m in the city, but then when I want to, I’m the city. Like that’s the dream for sure. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m talking to you… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I might steal this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b>…\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">from a\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Small apartment in Brooklyn, New York, no complaints, but one day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the West Village. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We’re also joined by Brian De Los Santos who is an LA-based journalist and a proud Angelino. So I have to ask, Brian, is your dream house in Los Angeles?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hell yeah.100%. And I would say Malibu, but you know what happened there with the fires early this year. So I gotta rethink my dream house, you know. My first instinct is the beach, the waves, some above that California marijuana. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vibes all around. I love the beach. I’m a Leo. I get I love warm days. But the second part to that answer is I have a condo that has two stories. It’s out in the desert. Unfortunately, I don’t live there, like, I don’t live there right now because I’m in LA. But it’s, yeah, I would say I was able to get a little bit of the American dream, but it’s not, I’m not there right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you both for your answers and thank you for joining me for this conversation because I think there’s something to say about the American dream and it somehow being synonymous with this notion of upward mobility and that also kind of resonates with immigration stories, migration stories, like why most folks came to this country to begin with. And so I wanna focus there first. And I wanna start with you, Paola, if you don’t mind maybe sharing your family’s migration story and how this notion of America even first came to be for you all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to my parents, for them, it was really around grasping here a very basic principle and freedom and right that didn’t exist where they came from, which is back then the basic principle of freedom of press and freedom of speech. So my mom is a Cuban exile, comes from a family of Cuban immigrants. My grandfather was a journalist in Cuba, first started with the revolution, started with Castro and sort of two years into Castro’s sort of rise in power, my grandfather ends up being imprisoned because he was writing articles against el Castrismo. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My father leaves Mexico at a time when Televisa, the, of course, massive Mexican media empire, at that point in his career, this is mid-’80s, they start restricting his radio pieces and his radio stories. And so he decides to leave. And so both of my parents come to the United States looking for that, looking to freely express themselves. And looking for freedom of press. My dad who then ended up becoming a news anchor for Univision, he would always tell me the biggest privilege and power you will ever have is your pen, this ability to write stories, to hold people in power accountable, the ability to ask questions. And I think that I sort of grew up with that understanding that were I ever to walk into those spaces of power, like that was my duty, my duty was that. And so I think that is the sort of environment and the conversations that I grew up in. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re now, of course, existing in a very different reality as journalists, and so this is something that I wake up with thinking about every single day. Slowly, these rights that I grew up with, they’re slowly eroding in front of us every single day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm, Brian, how did your family approach their migration to this country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I came with my parents. My dad came here first, and then I came with my mom in 1992. And I think for them, the American dream was just financial freedom, any little bit of it. They were leaving Mexico in an era where it was everyone’s financially challenged and there was no way out and they were seeing opportunities happen here in the late 80s and that’s what inspired them to come here, and so my parents are Christian pastors. And so they feel their success is tied with the religion, whether that is establishing a church of their own or that is serving in some way. So it really isn’t just about financial success or their home. FYI, my parents were undocumented when they came into this country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They always told me you know work hard you’re gonna get something bigger in return you’re going to be successful at things and I think that impacted me so much when I was a little kid that that’s what I thought was gonna happen and I hoped that would happen. They ended up buying a house. The market crash happened in 2007, 2008. And they were impacted. And I think that’s when they realized, oh, this shit is hard. You know, this is, you can be an immigrant, you can a good immigrant, you can do everything by the book and it’ll still be, you will still fail. And I do believe millennials, no shade to anyone else… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughte\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>r\u003c/em>] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … and no shade to any other generation, but I think millennials are redefining what that American dream is. Like I am talking to my friends about like, they’re not getting pregnant, some couples are like, “I don’t care about buying a house anymore. I want to be stable and I want to go on vacations with my family.” Do I care about a home? I don’t know. So we’ll see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like this idea of the shifting tides of the American dream. I mean, you addressed it. I talked about it in the intro. I don’t have any of the things that I thought would be part of the American dream that I grew up with. And Paola have you had conversations either with your friends, other family members about how what you’re pursuing just doesn’t seem to be identical to what they had in mind for you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I mean, I’m thinking of what I was thinking when I was five. And I think I think that’s the thing. This American dream sort of like corrupts your mind, you know, and it pushes you to believe that you’re supposed to meet certain certain measures. Like, I thought that by the time I was 37, which is what I am, I thought that I would be married to a man. I’m a lesbian. If I had that, I would be, you know, yes, like living in this house. And I think for many of us millennials, we’re understanding that it is extremely hard to achieve that in this country. In this country that sells you that this is a country of possibilities that sells you the message that you can do it all, which sure, we’re all trying as hard as we can, but I think what we’re coming to terms with is that at what cost, no? And that’s the question. I believe that I can achieve all these things, but I feel like I’m kind of selling my soul to the system, no?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I look around me, and I’m speaking from a point of immense privilege. But when I’m out there doing, you know, interviews and of course, more than anything, like talking to, like, mixed status families and immigrants, more often than not, I feel like I’m kind of sensing this big shift right now, where this American dream and the idea of it is dimming, because sure, we are sort of checking the measures, the economic measures. No, we’re- we’re having better opportunities than our parents, upward mobility is a real thing, but then the question of like, are we still truly respected, right? Like are our rights truly being respected? Like is dignity, you know the dignity that this country promises in that dream, like does that fully exist? You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So is it a myth, the American dream, or is it just evolving to a place that we can’t quite define it yet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I low-key think it’s a myth, and I’ll let people process that by their own. As Paola was talking about her own privilege, I also need to check myself because I have DACA, which is a work permit, and sometimes like Paola, when I’m interviewing mixed-status families, I’m like, I feel the privilege that I hold in this space, whether it’s in media or whether it is just having financial stability. And so for me, it’s a myth in other theories, in other ways that we see out there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, I think that’s like the key question that we’re wrestling with as a nation and in American politics right now is like, you know, are we truly or are we all headed towards this like multiracial, pluralistic, diverse democracy, or at our core, is it always the case that we keep going back to roots of this country, right, which is a country that was founded upon the principles of white supremacy. And it is a country that every turn, every time it can, it has oppressed and oppressed and oppressed every attempt to sort of diverge from those origins. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think that’s kind of what we’re wrestling with as a country. And I think not to bring it back to politics, but I think that’s why perhaps the 2024 election once again was such a shock for so many people because it was like. Here we are again, we had an opportunity to elect a black women president, and yet again, we couldn’t do it. No, here we are again, we’ve had multiple attempts at passing comprehensive immigration reform, and yeah, we don’t do it. No, Here we again, separating families. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think it’s almost like, at some point, we have to be real with what we’re dealing with. And if it is true, in fact, that are we or not a country of immigrants, like are we or not, you know, like all of these have for so many years, like shaped the way that we think of this country, right? Which is, yes, it’s a country full of dreams and the American dream. And perhaps, perhaps we’re not.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’re going to take a short little break and we’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politics is cyclical, some of these stories we’ve been hearing about for generations for, you know, multiple administrations. Like, because the timeline seems like it’s repeating itself, do we think that’s why the American dream continues on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I’m kind of going through my own personal crisis in this era. I think for me also, my personal story is as an undocumented immigrant who has a work permit that could go away any second, I’m always on survival mode. Like whether I have a house or whether I own a car or not. I don’t know what’s gonna happen with my future. And the pathway to a green card to citizenship is not there for me. I have to go through different loopholes to try to get one. And even though I have an immigration lawyer and we’re trying to do what we can for my case, it’s not the easiest one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>XO: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Paola what do you think?\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, look, I think so long as this country continues to present us with opportunities, you know opportunities that are better here than those where our family’s left behind, the dream will continue to exist. However, I do think that we are in the midst of a breaking point where, at least I’m finding as I’m talking to people, people that aren’t being deported. I’m talking about people that are choosing to leave on their own terms. And I think there’s a type of empowerment and liberation that is coming from families that are kind of looking at themselves and at their journey in this country and that are saying, you know what, I can’t do it anymore. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, I’ve been meeting a significant amount of people that are making that decision and I’ve had following them around the country. And I’ve done following them across the border. And I’m talking to you after just coming back from Panama and Columbia, where I was able to talk to, for example, like a group of 30 Venezuelans many of them were waiting along the US-Mexico border in limbo for a couple of months, and all of whom decided at some point in the last couple of weeks that they couldn’t take it anymore. That it was not worth it for them to live in a country. That would criminalize them and deport them to another country simply because of their tattoos. And so in those conversations, they chose that their dignity at this point was more worth it than living in a country that was giving them the bare minimum. But then I think I mentioned that it’s a breaking point because then what really stuck with me is that when I asked them, is this dream replaceable? They said, yes. And so what happens when you leave the dream and you sort of start looking for it elsewhere? And I think that’s kind of where we’re at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, let’s get to the question, which is at the heart of the episode, which is what do you want from America? And what do think it can give you? Brian, what is it that you want?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, damn. You put it so deeply. Almost got me teary-eyed over it right now. The one thing that I come back to is, as an immigrant in this country, I just want to be treated like a human. I don’t want to be seen as a policy story. I don’t want to be seen as a tax ID number. I don’t want to be seen as anything else but just like, oh, he’s a dude who wants to do this and that and is talented. And I think that’s where, you know, I could see the American dream be about as a human and be treated as such, but sometimes I feel like a number in this country. So if I had a little magic wand and be like, Brian, what do you want out of this country is people respect each other and are more empathetic, even though that’s a controversial topic out there that empathy is not a thing. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I want to be treated more humanly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like that. Paola, What would yours be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have to agree. I mean, I think it’s, yeah, just to have this country love you back entirely. And I think the expectation was that at this time in history, you know, just talking about myself, as queer people in this diverse nation, the expectation is that we would be more loved. And I don’t think we’re necessarily, we’re definitely not there yet. And so I think I expect like a very basic level of humanity and love. And I expect that in these moments of transition, I expect this country to really truly uphold its democratic norms and institutions that allow for these dreams to be alive. You know what I’m saying? So like at a time when there’s so much uncertainty, My expectation, and I’m not a religious person, but I pray for this, is that those core democratic norms are unshakable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">witnessed part of this transition, especially as it’s documented in your book \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Defectors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, because it’s talking about the rise or at least now folks are becoming a bit more aware of the conservative wing of the Latino community. So if you can share a little bit about maybe what they told you about their dreams and desires of what this country should give them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story is that we believed, that as Latinos, our American dream looked a certain way. I think what we’re also understanding is that for those over 45% of Latinos that voted for Trump, I think they are showing us that. The American dream can be corrupted. Knowing that there’s a point in this journey where like individualism and capitalism and our sort of ambition to make it in this country, our ambition to assimilate, our ambition to attain power, our mission to be at the top, that can lead a lot of people, including Latinos and including immigrants and including black and brown people, that can leave you to a more corrupted darker version of the American Dream. Now that can be a brown person to find something extremely appealing in Trump’s version of the American dream, which is an American dream that is whiter, that is less threatened by diversity. And I think A, is just like sitting with that reality, but then understanding, and I think that’s kind of like the more interesting part, like posing the question to all the like Latino insurrectionists that I’ve interviewed and the Latino Proud Boys and sort of the border vigilantes that find something so appealing in Trumps like, version of the American Dream, the question that I now have for them is like, today in Trump’s America, how free are you? Did you attain that power? Did he give you anything? Do you have more now than you did back then? And I think slowly, perhaps, the answer is no, right? But I think the illusion of that dream is more powerful, of course, than the reality. And that’s what I believe, I would assume, is what many of them are coming to terms \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think that the American dream can only exist in competition to someone else’s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s how we’ve typically defined the dream. And I think if we define the dream as a dream of possibilities, then yes. But I think we define a dream as the dream is based on rights, and freedoms, and justice, and movements, then it’s different. And I that’s why when you ask this question, people are going to give you two different versions. Yes, I attained the dream of possibility. But no, I didn’t attain the dream of rights and freedoms. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think because we’re so used to talking about this in economic terms and in the frame of upward mobility, I think that’s where people do get threatened, because then the dream means that you’re taking something away from the other person, that you are climbing up the ladder, but not the other person. And I think, unfortunately, if we’ve learned something within American politics and within Latino politics, is that we too can be greedy, and that we, too, many times don’t want the other immigrants to climb up the ladder the same way that we did. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that is a harsh reality of where we are, you know? That in this country, we’re so used to working so hard to attain that dream and they make it so hard to do it that we then become so corrupted that we don’t want the same opportunities for that other person. And that, that is something that is, that does happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and I think it’s because some people will be like oh well I made it and I’m fine and why aren’t you making it. I’m like honey, we’re not the same people, you know. There was a conversation at my dinner table. Mom, I’m sorry, but I’m going to say it here. Um, she saw a video on YouTube, got her news from there. And she’s like, why are these immigrants coming in this way? They’re like invading the country. I’m like, mom, you crossed the border with me in 1992. What are you talking about? And I had to check her. I’m, like, you cannot be like talking about this news that you got from YouTube that you don’t, I don’t know what channel she got it from. With all these bad references. I’m like, you are a leader in your community. You cannot talk about immigrants this way. You are one. And so just going back to the fact that Paola brought up, some people will pull up the ladder away from the next person that’s coming in. It’s happening. And so for me, it’s just wild to see these things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Brian, you actually had a chance to do something which I haven’t had a change to do, which is ask your parents directly about this question on the American dream that, at least my parents sold me first. But how did that conversation go? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was a little scared to ask them because I’m like, am I gonna be frazzled by their answer? But my dad kept it really real. He’s like, we know that the policies or even people have treated each other badly in this country. And he knows it hasn’t been easy. He knows that he’s had his own personal hurdles and at his church, he’s also seen other people’s hurdles. And we’ve seen people get deported, we’ve seen people. Lose themselves in this country. And so what he says, I feel like this is a place that everyone can come to, but we know it’s hard and not everyone can make it here. And, I feel like I’m still happy being here. Like he’s, he says he’s not going to bag on the US. He’s not going to talk bad about the US, but he says. He understands how people experience the life here. And he’s happy where he’s at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Paola, have you had a chance to talk to your parents about this or saving it for Thanksgiving? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I think, look, they have, I would say, different ideas. So I think my dad is someone that fundamentally believes that the dream is alive and that it is worth sticking around to see where it ends. No, and like I said, so long as, and I think that’s how he would measure it, not so long, as his children, which is myself and my brother, have more opportunities than him. Which we did. We went to American colleges and we were able to sort of enter the English-speaking media world in a way that he has never been able to. So long as those things are real, I think my dad will always say it’s worth it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mother left the United States two years ago, so my mom now lives in Spain. She’s in Madrid. And I think that’s given her a lot of perspective, not to be able to see the US from afar, particularly the US that we’re sort of evolving into and turning into. And I mean, she would probably say, if I were to ask her, like, would you ever come back and live here on your choice voluntarily? I would assume that she would say no. Because I think then in Spain, she has found a certain like peace. She also is a journalist. So I think kind of like leaving the crazy world of American journalism and like the newsrooms. I also think maybe that has something to do with it. No, she’s not as crazy as dude, but I think there’s a level of calmness and peace. Maybe there’s something to not living in the sort of day-to-day competitiveness, sort of like all of us hustling. And I think she’s content. And I think in her eyes, she would probably say that it’s perhaps… Attainable elsewhere, not just in the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna thank both of you for joining me for this. It really was an existential conversation about, like, what are we doing\u003c/span>\u003cb>.\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so I could not have thought of two better people to have this conversation. So thank you so much for joining me today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. This was like therapy, honestly. So I’m good for the week. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Canceling my session this week. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Literally!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to remind our listeners, if you want to send us your thoughts about what the American Dream is, or what your version of the American dream is, please send us an email at HYP at kqed.org, or if you want to sent us an idea for an upcoming episode. But until then, hasta luego.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003cbr>\nMixing and mastering by Christopher Beale.\u003cbr>\nJen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker.\u003cbr>\nThanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan.\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support.\u003cbr>\nOkay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While the world anticipates the changes that a new pope will bring to the Catholic church, fewer Latinos in the U.S. actually identify with Catholicism today. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares discusses the question, “Is God still relevant to us?” with guests Hoja Lopez and Luis Galilei.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8100497037&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/Z61jGsi2lp0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoja Lopez (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/hojalopez?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hojalopez.com/about\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Luis Galilei (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/incapapi/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y’all, the Walter Mercado candles WORKED. We have a new pope!! Which still feels a little weird to say. Que en paz descanse Papa Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But on May 8th, the papal conclave elected Cardinal Robert Prevost as the Catholic Church’s new leader. And not only is the new Pope Leo the Fourteenth our first-ever American pontiff, he’s also worked as missionary and bishop from Peru for many years. So he’s Latino-adjacent, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now it’s still too soon to say what his papacy will bring, but early responses have seemed positive. And I’m just talking about my own personal text threads. Because did y’all doubt for a second that my family and I are HELLA Catholic? The Mexican culture I grew up with is practically synonymous with Catholicism! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I know that’s not the case for everyone. Because as time passes and society pushes forward, younger generations are identifying weaknesses within organized religion. Like the Catholic church still officially believes that queer folks like me, and specifically transgender people, must routinely apologize for our supposed “sinful” existence – which, no thank you. It also refuses to let women become clergy or assume positions of power. And don’t get me started on the ongoing abuse scandal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some will say that Christian institutions are hurting God’s public image, so much so that it’s pushing people away. Others might say that organized religion just isn’t relevant anymore. So, put simply – who or what do we believe in these days?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorje Olivares, and I’m eager to ask this question. Is God still relevant to us? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> So joining me today are two people with very different relationships to religion than myself, but we all grew up Catholic. And since we grew up catholic, I’m dying to figure out the last time they went to church. So joining us first is Hoja Lopez, a comedian and writer who pretty much spent her entire academic career in Venezuela going to Catholic school, which all the power to you. And now identifies as, like a spiritually fluid person. So, Hoja, thank you for joining us. And secondly, when was the last time you found yourself in church?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You have truly stumped me with this. I was trying to rock my brain. I think the last time I went, I went to a very fancy white lady and man wedding, um, in New Orleans. And there was, uh, it was like one of those grand ones that has like a giant organ in the back and like sort of expansive ceilings. And I’ll tell you what, the Catholics, we really do churches, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was probably like 2017. I stood outside of a church two years ago waiting for my mom to come out. And my mom was sort of like beckoning me in. And I said, I’m good, I’ll stay out here. I’ll wait for you. But that, yeah, there’s something about a church, the grander it is. I don’t know if they’re trying to maybe bamboozle you a little bit to feel the sort of grandiosity of God, the bigger the church is, but um there is something about like a beautiful stained glass that makes you feel like there’s something bigger going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s a chorus of angels just singing bringing you inside its doors, Sister Act style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100% \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not sure if he’s a Sister Act fan but excited to welcome Luis Galilei, who is an actor, filmmaker, and a performer who grew up Catholic, but pretty early on rejected a lot of its teachings, is now very much a follower of Andean spirituality. And so I’m curious for you, Luis, when was the last time you were inside of a church? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I had to look it up because I wanted to put some cultural context here. The last time I was in a church, Teach me How to Dougie drop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whoa. Whoa, OK. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2010 baby when I was 15, dawg. That’s the last time I stepped in there \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll just chime in and say that for me, it was \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the Saturday before Easter this year, before Pope Francis left us, it must have, I must have known, my body was drawing me to church in order to give my tocayo one last hurrah. Well, thank you so much for joining me today to have this conversation about religion. So there is this notion that family is the Genesis of our understanding. Oh my God, Genesis, look at what I did there, uh of our understanding of religion. So Hoja, could you talk about w hat your family’s association with religion was, especially maybe Catholicism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure, so I grew up with a very religious grandma and great grandma. There were people who were like waking up at 5 a.m. Every day rosary, like they would do the little like, like the whip yourself on your thigh stuff, like really hardcore Opus Dei crazy shit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so my mom was really like kind of the first rebel of the family. I feel like there’s always a rebel. So I got to be a second generation rebel. T\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">his is just reminding me. I was, uh, I recently had this thing, recently, a couple of years ago– I called my mom and I was like, “Mom, I remember you in a copper pyramid in the middle of the living room,” and my mom’s like, “Ay si mija, I was just praying. I was meditating in the middle of the copper pyramid.” This woman is so not Catholic anymore that she had my stepdad build her a copper that she would sit in. And she would meditate because my mom’s very like woo-woo now. So now it’s a real kind of like combination for her of coming back to Catholicism as an older woman, but still holding like this very broad set of beliefs. But yeah, for her it’s real mix. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">umm hmm, I see that\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luis, who would you say is the most religious person in your family when you think about religion, like at a Catholic level, Christian level, this like church going figure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I never had someone in my family that was like a very much a church going figure. For me, like the Catholicism was just like,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it was a part of our upbringing, it was a part of our life. Everything, everything had to do with it, except for going to church.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh interesting\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>Once I started to become of age I guess like my mom started to get like really enthused with getting me in Sunday school classes and working on my first communion like all all my family has done all the like communion and confirmation thing and that’s where it stopped and then like sometimes they go to church very like now that they’re older they go because I think they’re starting to feel their mortality So they’re like, let’s let me pray to something bigger and I’m like, oh, it’s very interesting how you guys go now Uh, God’s been watching the whole time, girl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did y’all do catechism school? Like you went through the full, I call it like a prep course, LSAT, but except for more like, what, eight years old. I imagine it’s like very similar to like, um, like the studying that you have to do for your bat mitzvah. Like you have learn so many things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, the fact that in catechism that I acted out the prodigal son parable at least five times in my childhood. Like I was the son that came back and was like, my son, you’ve been gone for so long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, but yeah, we would do it, we would have class right before mass. So it was like a three hour extravaganza \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So long!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I just made a realization on why I don’t fuck with Catholicism just now b\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ecause you were talking about acting out that thing and like you were the son and like, I didn’t grow up with my dad. Like my dad was out of my life and he chose to be out of life. And like this whole religion is about somebody’s son. And I’m like, fuck that guy. Where is he at? Oh, dang. I don’t know if that’s like real, but like maybe I was like, whoa, I feel a little like, I felt like a little vulnerable right there when you said that. And I was, like, wait, I wonder if as a little kid, like I was just like this whole son father thing, like really just, I didn’t believe in it because it wasn’t granted for me. So I was. Why? I don’t understand this. And, I was I questioned it from the get \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that you have this sort of like the bug in the back of your head because I didn’t have that I, I wasn’t like a kid that like knew how to beat to the rhythm of my own drum I was such a little follower as a kid. The only reason that I like um That I went to catechism school really was I really thought it was all real like and I wasn’t really into the judgment. I liked the magic of it. I like the stories of it like I liked this sort In some way, I didn’t really have like a super present dad in my life either. But there were a lot of other stories that I really sort of like identified with. And I loved all the virgins crying blood, the drama, the DRAMA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is a very dramatic religion. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I love that Luis, you know, when I, when they introduced you, we talked about Andean spiritual beliefs, that that’s more of where you’re headed in. Can you explain what that that means for folks who are just learning about this for the first time? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>E\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">s\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">sentially it’s praying to the earth. Pachamama is the earth then we have Inti, which is the sun god, the mammakia, which is the moon. And there’s many different Quechua names for the different aspects of Earth that you prayed to I guess how I got into it was that I learned that my family has Incan roots. My great grandmother, who I met, didn’t know how to speak Spanish. She just spoke Quechua, which was the Indigenous language of the people in the Andes before Catholicism got there and then made everyone speak Spanish. The Spaniards with Catholicism came in, told them their religion was bad, that they’re devils and that you should speak this language, which is Spanish, not your heathen language. So that whole thing sort of was like, okay, we were something closer to earth before. And I myself in my own therapeutic spiritual journey. Have felt very far away from my own self. So I started to pray in different ways and I started to find gratitude in many different places. Like the Andean sort of spirituality has made me so much– has help me achieve a peace throughout the day that I haven’t been able to in other forms. But I have seen people who follow Catholicism do, but I can see Pachamama everywhere. She talks to me in the way the earth talks to all humans. So I’ve learned and I know it’s super woo woo and I do not look like the type of person that does this, but like I’ll choose to walk home. So that I can absorb her. And if I’m not feeling well, like I will literally hug a tree. Like I will, literally touch a tree and like I’ve just seen that throughout all the cultures in this world, there’s been a common denominator, and it’s the Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break and when we come back, more Hyphenación.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like any good Catholic boy growing up in the Texas, Mexico border, uh, my family and I raised money so that way I could go to world youth day back in 2005. It is a time where you sent essentially millions of children to a specific place in the world for a pilgrimage. And it ends with a papal mass. So my family and I are fucking selling like chicken fajita plates in order to raise enough money to send me to Germany so I can go see Pope Benedict in Cologne Germany now 20 years ago. And I distinctly remember that part of this pilgrimage is we had to go to confession and because at the time I already knew I was gay had not really told many folks in my life I thought I needed to confess it that I needed to confess to this stranger priest that I was living with this truth. And when I go up to this priest, again, somebody whose name, face, I could not even describe to you, I remember sitting and saying, as I’m listing out my sins, that I was gay. And he looked at me and he said, you don’t need to say that here. And not that it was a part of him saying like, don’t mention this in church, it was… This is not to be included in the list of things that you have to ask for forgiveness for. And that stuck with me all these years later in so much so that I never felt one, that I had to confess that I was gay ever again, or two, that I ever needed to hide the fact that Diosito made a choice for me to be gay and I could live as openly and proudly as I wanted to as a Catholic person who also was of a queer experience. So I want to start with you Hoja about recognizing if your queerness could coexist with your beliefs or if there was a bit of tension that you had to work through\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I don’t think there was a ton of tension for me personally. I kind of like, as I mentioned, my mom was meditating in brass pyramids when I was growing up. So she sort of was a very pragmatic woman. I didn’t think that she was ever gonna have a real problem with me being a lesbian or me being gay. And so I guess the thing for me was really like my grandparents. I feel like I came out to, uh, I sort of actually tested the waters first with my grandma and I was like, wouldn’t it be crazy if, how crazy would it be if, um, what would be crazy if I was a lesbian or like was gay or something? But um, but I definitely was testing the waters. A\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd I remember her kind of saying like… Her first word of course sounded like, ew, you know? And it was such a throwaway little line, but it really kind of sets you back a little bit whenever you test the waters and it doesn’t go that well, you now? And my mom for so many years was like, don’t tell her, just, you, it’s gonna kill her. I don’t know why they always think that coming out is gonna kill the old people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First response most people have is like, No, please, we want her to live a healthy life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003ci> \u003c/i>Why wouldn’t she? Why wouldn’ she? She gets to know her grand person a lot better by just like knowing who they are. And I finally did come out to my grandma and I think it was a very sort of like soft okayness. I think that they really care for me and they don’t want to alienate me. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She really had to make a choice. She kind of had to choose to have me for these small moments or to really kind of not know me And I’m really glad she chose the way that she chose\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it’s so beautiful. Luis, is there something as you’re now embarking on this this form of spirituality this Andean spirituality that you’ve talked about praying to the earth And praying to to the things around you Is it easy to see your queerness in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think because of the\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Catholic, sort of marriage between this discipline Catholicism and machismo in the very toxic way from like our Latine communities. Like I never, I never entertained like coming out. I was just like, oh, this is just like something that’s in me that I don’t necessarily like respond to much. So I was, I was like an absolute no because the men in my family wouldn’t accept me. My friends wouldn’t except me. Girls would look at me wrong. Like everything was, everything was bad. T\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hen I came into my queerness and I came out as bisexual to my friends and to other people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, yeah, with this Andean spirituality, like there’s no judgment on me and what I like or feel or attract to. There’s only judgment on what I do to the earth. How am I behaving to my fellow person that came out of, you know, Lago Titicaca, right? Like we came out as clay figures out of this pond, This lake in Peru, so it’s like, that is more what I am judged on, right? Like, than through my sexuality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I have a question for either of you. But like, do you remember a time where religion served you, like Catholicism or that initial sort of like foray into it was, made you feel something?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was something positive or something negative? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, something positive, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like the thing I will say and, uh, it’s funny cause I’m wearing my rainbow wristband today, is for about six or seven years, I was a part of a gay Catholic church group in New York city and there was something so beautiful about being able to during the sign of peace, like hug other men, other gay men, and give them like the little kiss on the side of the cheek as part of the offering of peace. And I would never be able to do that in my hometown. Or in most other churches in the United States, well, pretty much in the world. So I feel like that really reminded me that community in church, community with God, especially with other people who share this identity is part of that magic you were talking about a little bit earlier. So I’ll say that. That’s probably my positive interaction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My positive interaction is gold jewelry. That shit was lit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, dawg. The gold cross is like, every time you did something, first communion, I got my first gold cross, and I was like, whoa, this is lit. I’m going to wear it everywhere. Especially for Latinos, I don’t know, that gold jewelry thing is almost like, oh, shit, I’m out here now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say the most meaningful positive thing that I’ve had with that is becoming my little cousin’s Godfather. I was like, this, I was just like, I do, I feel him. He’s in the room. You know what I mean? Like he’s like giving me, he’s giving me the opportunity to be a father figure. Again, I have a lot to do with like my absent father, like with my traumas and everything. So like, I was this is incredible.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">even though I don’ believe in the practice that we’re doing here, I believe in You and I accept this responsibility through Your hands. I felt very divinely charged. I was like, OK, this is my commitment and I love that there’s a word for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Padrino is a very gay term padrino. It’s like yeah, it’s like it’s adding sort of like a little flair at the end of body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love the little hands, it’s like, how did he know I am? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Padrino \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, Hoja, do you have a positive moment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, in\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Venezuela, we have a big mix of like santeria and Catholicism and those things really kind of weave interchangeably. And so we have lot of really amazing like female figures as kind of heads of church,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and they really take this sort of almost like God-like aspects to themselves. We\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have La Virgen de Coromoto, de Chiquinquirá, La Virgain Maria, but we also have this woman called Maria Leonza. And Maria Leonza is this very like muscular, gorgeous, like almost like witch figure that is like mainstream in Venezuela. And I just remember her being the first woman that I ever saw that wasn’t like thin, that wasn’ frail, that wasn’t white. And so to me, it was kind of like queerness in her. I saw a lot of like otherness in her that I really identified with. And Maria Leónza has always been something that like accompanies me in my life now.\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to end with this last question, which is \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to see if you have a an image in your head when you think of the word God. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, this is just the first thing that came to mind, but I think I see myself alone. I see my self like on a bench and I’m fed, I’m not thirsty, I don’t have any need that needs to be fulfilled. And there’s beautiful weather and I feel the breeze on my face and in my hair and I’m breathing deeply and I don’t even have to meditate on purpose. I don’ have to think on purpose, I don’t have to not think on the purpose. I think it’s just like when I’m being. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I have a lot of those moments in my life where I get to just… Just kind of be. I would say that’s the image that comes to mind for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is so beautiful. I love that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">God, I want to copy that so bad, there’s so much better than what I was thinking. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What were you thinking Luis?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you said, what does God look like? And then I was like, I just, I don’t know. The sun came into my mind. Cause like, again, that’s like my, like the Andean thing. Cause it gives life to so much. But then I’m like, all right, what would it be? So I’m, like, and then, and I was like, oh, black trans Jesus. That’s, that, that what he looks like\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and she’s fabulous and she can vogue. But then I was like, no, come on, what is it? And I came down to like a voice, just like the voice in my head, not the bad voice, not that one, but the voice that like my intuition, I guess, the voice that sends the signal to my stomach to go for something, even though I’m nervous about it. The voice that says the signal to my legs to get myself out of a situation because it just doesn’t feel right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like that holds the mirror up to me in certain situations. And like, is this, how do you want to act in this situation? Like, you know what you want to be in the example you want to be, is how that person would act? It’s the voice in my head. It’s, it’s the intuition that guides me without me asking for it. But I think that’s what God is, God’s a voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I will say I, one thing that I appreciate that somebody told me, especially in this, um, gay Catholic group that I was a part of is that God’s pronoun is God. And so this understanding that there’s a gender to him, her, they, that it’s just God and you have to appreciate God. And for me, I appreciate it. And for me I see God, you know, those hugs that you give people when you either, you haven’t seen them in a very long time, or you realize like, my God, I have so much love for you. Those like intense bear hugs. I feel like that is such a manifestation of God and God’s love and like being able to transfer whatever that energy is into an interaction with another person. I’m getting chills now just thinking about it. It’s just like, there’s something so beautiful about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If I could, I would give you both one of those hugs right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’d sniff you both. I’d get in there. I take a big noseful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll squeeze, squeeze real tight\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, this has been such a fantastic conversation, not only about religion and queerness, but just being around two people who I love and admire so much and really make me think about my faith. \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even though I might not look like the same one from catechism class, it’s still all an act of love. So. I cannot thank you enough for joining me for today’s call. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. And as my mom would say: Que dios me los bendigan, me los ampare, que los angelos reconozcan tu camino y iluminan cada uno de tus pasos. Every time I leave the house, baby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Con Dios\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>Well, I do want to let our listeners know that if you want to follow any one of my guests, just go to our show notes, all of their information where you can see them on social, where you could possibly see them live, all that will be there. And if you want to send us either your own experience with religion or a topic you’d like to have us cover on hyphenation, just email us at hyp at kqed.org. But until then, go in peace.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios production. It’s produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer, and KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hyphenación team is supported by our audience engagement producer Maha Sanad; podcast operations intern Alana Walker; podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger; video operations manager Vivian Morales; and our Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Chris Egusa, Martina Castro, Paulina Velasco and Megan Tan for their development support.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While the world anticipates the changes that a new pope will bring to the Catholic church, fewer Latinos in the U.S. actually identify with Catholicism today. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares discusses the question, “Is God still relevant to us?” with guests Hoja Lopez and Luis Galilei.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8100497037&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/Z61jGsi2lp0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/Z61jGsi2lp0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoja Lopez (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/hojalopez?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hojalopez.com/about\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Luis Galilei (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/incapapi/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y’all, the Walter Mercado candles WORKED. We have a new pope!! Which still feels a little weird to say. Que en paz descanse Papa Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But on May 8th, the papal conclave elected Cardinal Robert Prevost as the Catholic Church’s new leader. And not only is the new Pope Leo the Fourteenth our first-ever American pontiff, he’s also worked as missionary and bishop from Peru for many years. So he’s Latino-adjacent, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now it’s still too soon to say what his papacy will bring, but early responses have seemed positive. And I’m just talking about my own personal text threads. Because did y’all doubt for a second that my family and I are HELLA Catholic? The Mexican culture I grew up with is practically synonymous with Catholicism! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I know that’s not the case for everyone. Because as time passes and society pushes forward, younger generations are identifying weaknesses within organized religion. Like the Catholic church still officially believes that queer folks like me, and specifically transgender people, must routinely apologize for our supposed “sinful” existence – which, no thank you. It also refuses to let women become clergy or assume positions of power. And don’t get me started on the ongoing abuse scandal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some will say that Christian institutions are hurting God’s public image, so much so that it’s pushing people away. Others might say that organized religion just isn’t relevant anymore. So, put simply – who or what do we believe in these days?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorje Olivares, and I’m eager to ask this question. Is God still relevant to us? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> So joining me today are two people with very different relationships to religion than myself, but we all grew up Catholic. And since we grew up catholic, I’m dying to figure out the last time they went to church. So joining us first is Hoja Lopez, a comedian and writer who pretty much spent her entire academic career in Venezuela going to Catholic school, which all the power to you. And now identifies as, like a spiritually fluid person. So, Hoja, thank you for joining us. And secondly, when was the last time you found yourself in church?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You have truly stumped me with this. I was trying to rock my brain. I think the last time I went, I went to a very fancy white lady and man wedding, um, in New Orleans. And there was, uh, it was like one of those grand ones that has like a giant organ in the back and like sort of expansive ceilings. And I’ll tell you what, the Catholics, we really do churches, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was probably like 2017. I stood outside of a church two years ago waiting for my mom to come out. And my mom was sort of like beckoning me in. And I said, I’m good, I’ll stay out here. I’ll wait for you. But that, yeah, there’s something about a church, the grander it is. I don’t know if they’re trying to maybe bamboozle you a little bit to feel the sort of grandiosity of God, the bigger the church is, but um there is something about like a beautiful stained glass that makes you feel like there’s something bigger going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s a chorus of angels just singing bringing you inside its doors, Sister Act style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100% \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not sure if he’s a Sister Act fan but excited to welcome Luis Galilei, who is an actor, filmmaker, and a performer who grew up Catholic, but pretty early on rejected a lot of its teachings, is now very much a follower of Andean spirituality. And so I’m curious for you, Luis, when was the last time you were inside of a church? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I had to look it up because I wanted to put some cultural context here. The last time I was in a church, Teach me How to Dougie drop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whoa. Whoa, OK. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2010 baby when I was 15, dawg. That’s the last time I stepped in there \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll just chime in and say that for me, it was \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the Saturday before Easter this year, before Pope Francis left us, it must have, I must have known, my body was drawing me to church in order to give my tocayo one last hurrah. Well, thank you so much for joining me today to have this conversation about religion. So there is this notion that family is the Genesis of our understanding. Oh my God, Genesis, look at what I did there, uh of our understanding of religion. So Hoja, could you talk about w hat your family’s association with religion was, especially maybe Catholicism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure, so I grew up with a very religious grandma and great grandma. There were people who were like waking up at 5 a.m. Every day rosary, like they would do the little like, like the whip yourself on your thigh stuff, like really hardcore Opus Dei crazy shit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so my mom was really like kind of the first rebel of the family. I feel like there’s always a rebel. So I got to be a second generation rebel. T\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">his is just reminding me. I was, uh, I recently had this thing, recently, a couple of years ago– I called my mom and I was like, “Mom, I remember you in a copper pyramid in the middle of the living room,” and my mom’s like, “Ay si mija, I was just praying. I was meditating in the middle of the copper pyramid.” This woman is so not Catholic anymore that she had my stepdad build her a copper that she would sit in. And she would meditate because my mom’s very like woo-woo now. So now it’s a real kind of like combination for her of coming back to Catholicism as an older woman, but still holding like this very broad set of beliefs. But yeah, for her it’s real mix. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">umm hmm, I see that\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luis, who would you say is the most religious person in your family when you think about religion, like at a Catholic level, Christian level, this like church going figure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I never had someone in my family that was like a very much a church going figure. For me, like the Catholicism was just like,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it was a part of our upbringing, it was a part of our life. Everything, everything had to do with it, except for going to church.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh interesting\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>Once I started to become of age I guess like my mom started to get like really enthused with getting me in Sunday school classes and working on my first communion like all all my family has done all the like communion and confirmation thing and that’s where it stopped and then like sometimes they go to church very like now that they’re older they go because I think they’re starting to feel their mortality So they’re like, let’s let me pray to something bigger and I’m like, oh, it’s very interesting how you guys go now Uh, God’s been watching the whole time, girl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did y’all do catechism school? Like you went through the full, I call it like a prep course, LSAT, but except for more like, what, eight years old. I imagine it’s like very similar to like, um, like the studying that you have to do for your bat mitzvah. Like you have learn so many things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, the fact that in catechism that I acted out the prodigal son parable at least five times in my childhood. Like I was the son that came back and was like, my son, you’ve been gone for so long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, but yeah, we would do it, we would have class right before mass. So it was like a three hour extravaganza \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So long!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I just made a realization on why I don’t fuck with Catholicism just now b\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ecause you were talking about acting out that thing and like you were the son and like, I didn’t grow up with my dad. Like my dad was out of my life and he chose to be out of life. And like this whole religion is about somebody’s son. And I’m like, fuck that guy. Where is he at? Oh, dang. I don’t know if that’s like real, but like maybe I was like, whoa, I feel a little like, I felt like a little vulnerable right there when you said that. And I was, like, wait, I wonder if as a little kid, like I was just like this whole son father thing, like really just, I didn’t believe in it because it wasn’t granted for me. So I was. Why? I don’t understand this. And, I was I questioned it from the get \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that you have this sort of like the bug in the back of your head because I didn’t have that I, I wasn’t like a kid that like knew how to beat to the rhythm of my own drum I was such a little follower as a kid. The only reason that I like um That I went to catechism school really was I really thought it was all real like and I wasn’t really into the judgment. I liked the magic of it. I like the stories of it like I liked this sort In some way, I didn’t really have like a super present dad in my life either. But there were a lot of other stories that I really sort of like identified with. And I loved all the virgins crying blood, the drama, the DRAMA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is a very dramatic religion. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I love that Luis, you know, when I, when they introduced you, we talked about Andean spiritual beliefs, that that’s more of where you’re headed in. Can you explain what that that means for folks who are just learning about this for the first time? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>E\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">s\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">sentially it’s praying to the earth. Pachamama is the earth then we have Inti, which is the sun god, the mammakia, which is the moon. And there’s many different Quechua names for the different aspects of Earth that you prayed to I guess how I got into it was that I learned that my family has Incan roots. My great grandmother, who I met, didn’t know how to speak Spanish. She just spoke Quechua, which was the Indigenous language of the people in the Andes before Catholicism got there and then made everyone speak Spanish. The Spaniards with Catholicism came in, told them their religion was bad, that they’re devils and that you should speak this language, which is Spanish, not your heathen language. So that whole thing sort of was like, okay, we were something closer to earth before. And I myself in my own therapeutic spiritual journey. Have felt very far away from my own self. So I started to pray in different ways and I started to find gratitude in many different places. Like the Andean sort of spirituality has made me so much– has help me achieve a peace throughout the day that I haven’t been able to in other forms. But I have seen people who follow Catholicism do, but I can see Pachamama everywhere. She talks to me in the way the earth talks to all humans. So I’ve learned and I know it’s super woo woo and I do not look like the type of person that does this, but like I’ll choose to walk home. So that I can absorb her. And if I’m not feeling well, like I will literally hug a tree. Like I will, literally touch a tree and like I’ve just seen that throughout all the cultures in this world, there’s been a common denominator, and it’s the Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break and when we come back, more Hyphenación.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like any good Catholic boy growing up in the Texas, Mexico border, uh, my family and I raised money so that way I could go to world youth day back in 2005. It is a time where you sent essentially millions of children to a specific place in the world for a pilgrimage. And it ends with a papal mass. So my family and I are fucking selling like chicken fajita plates in order to raise enough money to send me to Germany so I can go see Pope Benedict in Cologne Germany now 20 years ago. And I distinctly remember that part of this pilgrimage is we had to go to confession and because at the time I already knew I was gay had not really told many folks in my life I thought I needed to confess it that I needed to confess to this stranger priest that I was living with this truth. And when I go up to this priest, again, somebody whose name, face, I could not even describe to you, I remember sitting and saying, as I’m listing out my sins, that I was gay. And he looked at me and he said, you don’t need to say that here. And not that it was a part of him saying like, don’t mention this in church, it was… This is not to be included in the list of things that you have to ask for forgiveness for. And that stuck with me all these years later in so much so that I never felt one, that I had to confess that I was gay ever again, or two, that I ever needed to hide the fact that Diosito made a choice for me to be gay and I could live as openly and proudly as I wanted to as a Catholic person who also was of a queer experience. So I want to start with you Hoja about recognizing if your queerness could coexist with your beliefs or if there was a bit of tension that you had to work through\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I don’t think there was a ton of tension for me personally. I kind of like, as I mentioned, my mom was meditating in brass pyramids when I was growing up. So she sort of was a very pragmatic woman. I didn’t think that she was ever gonna have a real problem with me being a lesbian or me being gay. And so I guess the thing for me was really like my grandparents. I feel like I came out to, uh, I sort of actually tested the waters first with my grandma and I was like, wouldn’t it be crazy if, how crazy would it be if, um, what would be crazy if I was a lesbian or like was gay or something? But um, but I definitely was testing the waters. A\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd I remember her kind of saying like… Her first word of course sounded like, ew, you know? And it was such a throwaway little line, but it really kind of sets you back a little bit whenever you test the waters and it doesn’t go that well, you now? And my mom for so many years was like, don’t tell her, just, you, it’s gonna kill her. I don’t know why they always think that coming out is gonna kill the old people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First response most people have is like, No, please, we want her to live a healthy life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003ci> \u003c/i>Why wouldn’t she? Why wouldn’ she? She gets to know her grand person a lot better by just like knowing who they are. And I finally did come out to my grandma and I think it was a very sort of like soft okayness. I think that they really care for me and they don’t want to alienate me. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She really had to make a choice. She kind of had to choose to have me for these small moments or to really kind of not know me And I’m really glad she chose the way that she chose\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it’s so beautiful. Luis, is there something as you’re now embarking on this this form of spirituality this Andean spirituality that you’ve talked about praying to the earth And praying to to the things around you Is it easy to see your queerness in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think because of the\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Catholic, sort of marriage between this discipline Catholicism and machismo in the very toxic way from like our Latine communities. Like I never, I never entertained like coming out. I was just like, oh, this is just like something that’s in me that I don’t necessarily like respond to much. So I was, I was like an absolute no because the men in my family wouldn’t accept me. My friends wouldn’t except me. Girls would look at me wrong. Like everything was, everything was bad. T\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hen I came into my queerness and I came out as bisexual to my friends and to other people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, yeah, with this Andean spirituality, like there’s no judgment on me and what I like or feel or attract to. There’s only judgment on what I do to the earth. How am I behaving to my fellow person that came out of, you know, Lago Titicaca, right? Like we came out as clay figures out of this pond, This lake in Peru, so it’s like, that is more what I am judged on, right? Like, than through my sexuality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I have a question for either of you. But like, do you remember a time where religion served you, like Catholicism or that initial sort of like foray into it was, made you feel something?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was something positive or something negative? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, something positive, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like the thing I will say and, uh, it’s funny cause I’m wearing my rainbow wristband today, is for about six or seven years, I was a part of a gay Catholic church group in New York city and there was something so beautiful about being able to during the sign of peace, like hug other men, other gay men, and give them like the little kiss on the side of the cheek as part of the offering of peace. And I would never be able to do that in my hometown. Or in most other churches in the United States, well, pretty much in the world. So I feel like that really reminded me that community in church, community with God, especially with other people who share this identity is part of that magic you were talking about a little bit earlier. So I’ll say that. That’s probably my positive interaction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My positive interaction is gold jewelry. That shit was lit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, dawg. The gold cross is like, every time you did something, first communion, I got my first gold cross, and I was like, whoa, this is lit. I’m going to wear it everywhere. Especially for Latinos, I don’t know, that gold jewelry thing is almost like, oh, shit, I’m out here now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say the most meaningful positive thing that I’ve had with that is becoming my little cousin’s Godfather. I was like, this, I was just like, I do, I feel him. He’s in the room. You know what I mean? Like he’s like giving me, he’s giving me the opportunity to be a father figure. Again, I have a lot to do with like my absent father, like with my traumas and everything. So like, I was this is incredible.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">even though I don’ believe in the practice that we’re doing here, I believe in You and I accept this responsibility through Your hands. I felt very divinely charged. I was like, OK, this is my commitment and I love that there’s a word for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Padrino is a very gay term padrino. It’s like yeah, it’s like it’s adding sort of like a little flair at the end of body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love the little hands, it’s like, how did he know I am? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Padrino \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, Hoja, do you have a positive moment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, in\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Venezuela, we have a big mix of like santeria and Catholicism and those things really kind of weave interchangeably. And so we have lot of really amazing like female figures as kind of heads of church,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and they really take this sort of almost like God-like aspects to themselves. We\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have La Virgen de Coromoto, de Chiquinquirá, La Virgain Maria, but we also have this woman called Maria Leonza. And Maria Leonza is this very like muscular, gorgeous, like almost like witch figure that is like mainstream in Venezuela. And I just remember her being the first woman that I ever saw that wasn’t like thin, that wasn’ frail, that wasn’t white. And so to me, it was kind of like queerness in her. I saw a lot of like otherness in her that I really identified with. And Maria Leónza has always been something that like accompanies me in my life now.\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to end with this last question, which is \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to see if you have a an image in your head when you think of the word God. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, this is just the first thing that came to mind, but I think I see myself alone. I see my self like on a bench and I’m fed, I’m not thirsty, I don’t have any need that needs to be fulfilled. And there’s beautiful weather and I feel the breeze on my face and in my hair and I’m breathing deeply and I don’t even have to meditate on purpose. I don’ have to think on purpose, I don’t have to not think on the purpose. I think it’s just like when I’m being. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I have a lot of those moments in my life where I get to just… Just kind of be. I would say that’s the image that comes to mind for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is so beautiful. I love that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">God, I want to copy that so bad, there’s so much better than what I was thinking. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What were you thinking Luis?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you said, what does God look like? And then I was like, I just, I don’t know. The sun came into my mind. Cause like, again, that’s like my, like the Andean thing. Cause it gives life to so much. But then I’m like, all right, what would it be? So I’m, like, and then, and I was like, oh, black trans Jesus. That’s, that, that what he looks like\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and she’s fabulous and she can vogue. But then I was like, no, come on, what is it? And I came down to like a voice, just like the voice in my head, not the bad voice, not that one, but the voice that like my intuition, I guess, the voice that sends the signal to my stomach to go for something, even though I’m nervous about it. The voice that says the signal to my legs to get myself out of a situation because it just doesn’t feel right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like that holds the mirror up to me in certain situations. And like, is this, how do you want to act in this situation? Like, you know what you want to be in the example you want to be, is how that person would act? It’s the voice in my head. It’s, it’s the intuition that guides me without me asking for it. But I think that’s what God is, God’s a voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I will say I, one thing that I appreciate that somebody told me, especially in this, um, gay Catholic group that I was a part of is that God’s pronoun is God. And so this understanding that there’s a gender to him, her, they, that it’s just God and you have to appreciate God. And for me, I appreciate it. And for me I see God, you know, those hugs that you give people when you either, you haven’t seen them in a very long time, or you realize like, my God, I have so much love for you. Those like intense bear hugs. I feel like that is such a manifestation of God and God’s love and like being able to transfer whatever that energy is into an interaction with another person. I’m getting chills now just thinking about it. It’s just like, there’s something so beautiful about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If I could, I would give you both one of those hugs right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’d sniff you both. I’d get in there. I take a big noseful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll squeeze, squeeze real tight\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, this has been such a fantastic conversation, not only about religion and queerness, but just being around two people who I love and admire so much and really make me think about my faith. \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even though I might not look like the same one from catechism class, it’s still all an act of love. So. I cannot thank you enough for joining me for today’s call. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. And as my mom would say: Que dios me los bendigan, me los ampare, que los angelos reconozcan tu camino y iluminan cada uno de tus pasos. Every time I leave the house, baby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Con Dios\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>Well, I do want to let our listeners know that if you want to follow any one of my guests, just go to our show notes, all of their information where you can see them on social, where you could possibly see them live, all that will be there. And if you want to send us either your own experience with religion or a topic you’d like to have us cover on hyphenation, just email us at hyp at kqed.org. But until then, go in peace.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios production. It’s produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer, and KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hyphenación team is supported by our audience engagement producer Maha Sanad; podcast operations intern Alana Walker; podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger; video operations manager Vivian Morales; and our Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Chris Egusa, Martina Castro, Paulina Velasco and Megan Tan for their development support.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host Xorje Olivares has never been one for sharing, especially when it comes to a lover. This week on Hyphenación, Xorje speaks with Fernanda Fabian and Manuel Betancourt, two seasoned practitioners of non-monogamy, to talk about breaking free from monogamy, their relationships with their Latino parents, and following desires.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2996639416&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/bQx1tKELmuI\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fernanda Fabian (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/show/3TpsmC4gNO618CZe0Ou1Fr?si=2a537b3e4c744acb\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polycurious Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/tWXsCwpkPvsAnVxWsVf7cJ7v8X?domain=polycurious.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3ZY7CxklQwf9jRv3IvhZcy77Zp?domain=instagram.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/4QMRCyPmRxs032oRhQiJcxH2z9?domain=tiktok.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiktok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/ujVBCzpn0ysxzwqAiKslc9YehK?domain=patreon.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patreon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Manuel Betancourt (\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/757080/hello-stranger-by-manuel-betancourt/\">\u003ci>Hello Stranger\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bmanuel/?hl=en\">Instagram\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://mbetancourtcom.wordpress.com/\">Website\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know we’re only just now starting to get to know each other, but there’s something about me you have to know. And believe me, once I tell you, you’re probably going to look at me in a completely different light. Which is a risk I’m willing to take if it means standing in my truth. Ok. Here it goes: I – Xorje Andrés Olivares Urbina – am an aggressive monogamist. I know, right? Y con este cuerpazo? I should be sharing it with everyone who has a thing for chaparritos like me!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But alas, I’ve never been one for sharing…at least not when it comes to my romantic partners. In fact, when I was dating, it was one of the first few questions I would ask: it was like “what do you do for work? Any siblings? What are your concrete thoughts on open relationships and are you ok having sex with me and just me?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay it was never that forward as that, but I was pretty clear upfront with any potential suitor that – I was looking for an exclusive partner. For me, that meant having them as my only love interest, and I theirs. And I want to make sure I specify “love interest” because I absolutely understand that a single person cannot fulfill our every need as adults. That’s what friends, family, coworkers, hobbies are for and I’m not one of those tóxicas. Or am I? But seriously, am I being too rigid in my thinking on this? Should we ALL be breaking free from the prison of monogamy? I’m Xorje Olivares, and today I’m asking the question: Are you comfortable sharing your partner with another lover?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenación – where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve been really looking forward to today’s conversation because it is such a sexy topic, I felt like we needed to start with a sexy question. And so I’m gonna ask my two guests who are joining me today what they find sexy in another person. Because for me, it is tattoos. If somebody walks in with tattoos right now and like a bonus if they got an ear pierced, then I am just putty in their hands. And yes, do with that imagery what you will. I’m excited to first welcome to the program Fernanda Fabian, who is a relationship coach and the host of the Polycurious podcast, where she facilitates conversations about non-monogamy. Fernanda, thank you so much for joining us today. And I want to ask you, what do you find sexy in another person? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that question. And you know, my answer might surprise you a little bit because I’m not sure everyone feels that way. But one thing that I always find attractive is when someone says that they’re going to therapy. Because that means that they are actually working on themselves. They’re actually introspective. Hopefully that means they might be better communicating or more aware of their issues. And to me, as much as I do care about physical appearance, sometimes just someone who’s working on their stuff and is able to communicate is just a turn-on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love that. Making me think differently about this whole topic. Well, thank you so much for joining us and for providing that answer.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also excited to welcome Manuel Betancourt, who is a culture writer and the author of the new book, Hello Stranger, which talks about the seductive potential of what it means to be with strangers. Manuel, what is something you find sexy in another person? Whether it is a physical trait, personality trait… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was struggling. I was like, do I go with the physical trade? I love me some arms. So a nice bicep is sort of where-that’s my sweet spot. But for me, the thing that really grabs me is confidence. Like if someone can walk into a room and sort of lock eyes with me, and just that’s what turns me into putty. That’s what sort of makes me melt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I’m excited for us to have this chat. And I want us to get into this, especially starting with you Fernanda, about if you could tell us about what your relationship dynamics are and how you started this journey towards what you talk about in your podcast, Polycurious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course. So I actually have a very interesting dynamic, which I like to talk about, because I believe that other people might want to consider it. In my case, I am non-monogamous. I’m playing with calling myself poly at this point, because I recently started seeing someone that I’m calling my partner, but that had never happened before. However, my primary partner, who I have been with for almost seven years, is monogamous. So as you can imagine, that’s a very rare situation, rare dynamic, where one person is monogamous and the other person is non-monogamous, especially if the non-monogamous person is the woman. So I’m not an advocate for monogamy or non-monogamy. I just think that people should do whatever works for them. And for me and my partner, that is what works. So that’s why I decided to start the podcast, become a coach and do this work to show other people that it’s possible to do it in a healthy way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Manuel, I like the phrasing that Fernanda used about just what works for you. What currently works for you? What is your relationship dynamic currently?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, my current relationship dynamic is, I’m in what people would normally call a throuple. And so there’s three of us, and I met them when they had been together for five years. And so we started sort of hanging out, and it soon was clear that the three of us were sort of operating as a unit, as a romantic unit. And so, we like to say that we’re sort of this closed romantic triangle, but it’s very porous sexually. So we sort of practice, it’s an open relationship. We practice consensual non-monogamy. We’re very open and honest about what we do and what we allow ourselves to do with other people, sometimes with each other, sometimes at different place spaces. And that’s sort of what works for us right now. And that came from after being years monogamous sort of marriage. And after I got divorced, I made a conscious choice of what I realized that I wanted, what I realized that what I was looking for and really wanted in a relationship was a kind of openness. And so I never set out to be like, okay, now I’m going to be part of a throuple or now I am going to be a part of poly relationship or polycule. It’s just, as soon as I open the floodgates in my mind to be, like, I’m gonna be open to any kind of relationship dynamic. That grows organically and that sort of fulfills me romantically, sexually, you know, spiritually in all these different ways, like I’m just going to follow that. And what happened was sort of this, um, the throuple and we’re now going on. It’s going to be almost three years now. And Thats where I’m at right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do want to ask Manuel, if there was any hesitation on your part to joining some relationship dynamic. They already knew how to talk to each other. They already know how to fight with one another. They already how to, like, what their body language was with one another. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">absolutely. And in this, the thing that helped me was that I was in therapy. The thing that I talked about during those first few weeks in therapy was like, I don’t know if I can do this. And like, I needed someone to help me, guide me through and to sort of feel, because it felt like I wasn’t just joining a relationship. It was like I was joining a kind of partnership. They had been together for a while, they lived together, they had this like life together. Like, calibrating that took like a year, just sort of trying to find our bearings so that we would all feel comfortable. Because there was also hesitation on their part, Like they were, this was something that was established and they were also not looking for a third, they were not looking to sort of change. Their dynamic, a lot of stuff they had sort of down pat. And I then became the thing that illuminated a lot of stuff about their relationship and sort of the thing that my therapist at the time kept saying was like, you know, if you found yourself in this situation it’s because there was room for you in the relationship and that they’re making room for that being sort of a very active choice that the three of us were making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like a lot of this comes down to communication. Each of you have talked a little bit about that. And I want to go to you Fernanda and ask about what that communication looked like with your partner where you’ve brought up this notion of maybe we should try something a little different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course, I actually brought it up the second day we met, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, okay,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, by the time I met Seth, we actually met at Burning Man. So I think that also contributed to us being like super open and honest from the beginning. So, uh, we were both coming from a very like open space and, you know, the second day, the second night we met, we already felt like this was something really special, sometimes that doesn’t last after Burning Man, but in our case it did. So we were just like putting everything on the table. At that point I had friends that were open. I wasn’t non-monogamous in a primary relationship but I was already having friends with benefits that knew about each other and I was already clear that that’s what I wanted. And when I brought it up, he said, you know, I’m open to it and, you know we’ll figure it out. And then about like a month after we met, he was actually living in San Francisco, I was living in New York, and we were visiting each other and at some point he was like, hey, do you want to be my girlfriend? Which I found adorable because I hadn’t been asked that since high school. But I was like really into him, like feeling like this was really right and I just said yes. And then about like 15 minutes later, I was like hold on one second, does this mean that I cannot have sex with other people. Is that what being a girlfriend means? And he was like, yes. And I was like okay, well, that’s fine. I can make that sacrifice. But I could do that because I knew from the beginning that he was open to it down the line. He was very clear. He said, right now I don’t feel ready for that, but I want to give you what you want. I don’t know if I can, but I will try. So let’s go on stages. He’s also an introvert, so he loves his alone time and he loves to stay home. I’m an extrovert. So for him, it’s not like he’s opposed to non-monogamy and obviously he has the option and I hope that one day he finds someone that he wants to explore with, but he just doesn’t feel the need. So, you know, it was a slow process. And at some points, I was like, Oh, can I just, can I do it? Can I just go on the date? Because he’d be like, Okay, you can, You know, you can go on a date with someone, but they, you know… It’s better if they have a partner as well, and it’s better if it’s someone that you knew before you met me, so it’s not as much of a threat. There were important steps, because they gave him the opportunity to get used to that. So obviously, the first time I went to a play party, the first time I went on a date, he was having a difficult time, but he honestly is amazing and never put that jealousy or that like discomfort on me. He did say, okay, I’m feeling a little bit like, I don’t want to be close to you when you come back from dates, for example, because I’m having a hard time. So then we agreed that when I’d come back from a date which like for me was the opposite. I was just like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You want to tell him all the information! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was just like on cloud nine from meeting a new person. And then, you know, interestingly enough, that sexual energy, that new relationship energy, as people call it, actually comes back to my primary relationship. So I’d want to connect, you know, and even if we didn’t have sex, I want to like be close and cuddle. And he’d be like, okay, I need a little bit of more time to reconnect after you come back from a date. So we, it was a lot of trial and error. I always recommend people to do it that way, because if we had just started…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gone off the deep end\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cb> …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">open right away. He might have had a lot of jealousy, insecurity, a lot of difficult emotions, and it would have been a lot more difficult to actually get where we wanted to go because there would have been a lots of missteps and then repair and all of that. Although some people argue that you should start open right away if that’s what you want, which I think if you have experience with non-monogamy, if you both have experiences with non monogamy that can also work potentially, but The way it worked for me was to. Go very slowly, reassess, talk about feelings, and move from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just feel like it might be so hard I can see that like it takes those early conversations, it takes figuring out what the parameters are, figuring out what your boundaries are. And so Manuel was it easy once you started pursuing non- monogamy to be open and honest and transparent about your feelings of like That’s okay with me and that’s not okay with me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it took a while. And the other part was, I was dealing with two people, two people who had gone through that process and had figured it out for themselves. So they knew what worked for one another, what parties they go to, what was allowed and what was not allowed. So by the time I came in, there was like no rules. They were very like, you can do whatever you want. A lot of it was sexual. Like we don’t, romantic and dates, like those are not really things of the three of us partake or are interested. I think also because there’s three of us, so they’re like, there’s just enough, just a scheduling a date between the three of us is hard enough. Like, trying just to like… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m free Thursday at 3, but then yeah, I don’t quite know where that fits in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, but trying to figure out what I was comfortable with, that maybe the two of them had figured out, worked for them, and then I would be like, oh, actually, like, I get pangs of jealousy, but I don’t want to disrupt what the two them had achieved. So it did took a little bit of a while. It was a little bit of trial and error and I think the thing I kept coming back to is like, it’s okay to be jealous. It’s not okay to make that jealousy that someone else’s problem, right? Like, I can have those feelings, I can have feelings of fear, of anxiety, of inadequacy, of jealousy, like, but learning to not lead with those and learning not to act on those instinctively. Took a while– What does this mean? Is it because I’m insecure? Is it because I need more cuddling? Is it because I need more reassurance? Is it because I felt like you were choosing someone else over me? Uh and it took a while to sort of learn the language. I feel like it still happens to us like sometimes none of this is perfect. Uh none of it is like you you know you don’t get like a diploma and say now, you’re great at being poly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it’s sort of every single time is something different. And I have gotten better at it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna share a quick story. My partner and I just recently got engaged and it was a fun little like, oh my God, we did it moment. But it was funny because at least two different people after we announced our engagement came up to us and asked us if this was now the moment we were gonna try to be in an open relationship. And I thought it was interesting because it kind of came almost as soon as they said, congratulations. I was like, oh, okay, now you’re making me think at a time where I didn’t know we were going to. Confronted with this question. But I will say that especially as a queer person, as a cisgender gay man, I feel like I receive a lot of judgment because of my decision to be monogamous and because I am pursuing something that seems to feel a bit more heteronormative and a bit more traditional. But I do want to focus in on this issue of judgment. And starting with you Fernanda about having to navigate, feeling judged, not just by family, whoever else you encounter, but by people you feel very close with and wanna feel like you have a deep connection to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course. Well, I have to be honest. I’ve been very, very lucky. I grew up in a very liberal family, even though we grew up in Mexico. I’m Mexican. My mom’s side of the family is Cuban, very liberal. We’ve always talked about sex and things like that. And yeah, I didn’t really have a hard time in that realm. I also became non monogamous in Brooklyn, which is… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…the epicenter for exploration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The epicenter, exactly, exactly. And have always moved in very liberal circles. Again, the Burning Man community. So I have personally not faced much judgment with close people. However, on social media, I sometimes, especially on TikTok, for some reason on Instagram, I don’t get that much hate, but on TikTok I’ve even had people like recording videos criticizing what I’m doing, especially because… My partner is monogamous and people make an assumption that I’m taking advantage of him. And there’s a lot of layers of feeling like what I’m doing is unethical or something along those lines. I don’t I don’ feel any shame around it, however We’re not fully open. As I mentioned, my partner comes from a religious family. And I understand that their views of marriage and sex are very, very different from mine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what has been difficult for me has been to have to hide. Obviously, now this is my career, right? So I often have to hid a little bit what I’m doing as to not damage those relationships with those people that I really care for. And they care for me a lot. But I know that if they knew. Again, especially because their family member, my partner is monogamous, they would just completely change the way they see me and it would just create a lot of issues which I’m trying to avoid. So that’s been difficult. However, what you said is interesting about the gay community being almost judgmental the other way around, of like, why aren’t you being… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m making that up, Manuel or is that true? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, no, I it is a kind of it becomes like a lose lose situation because like if you’re on the one end, they’re like, oh, then you’re clearly just buying into this heteronormative patriarchal traditional assimilationist kind of strategy. And how dare you leave the rest of us radicals behind? Or on the other end, like, you know, you’re breaking all the institutions apart. So how dare you then not leave anything, is nothing sacred? I think for me, what I’ve always come down to is that so long as it’s a choice and it’s a conscious choice that you’re making, like monogamy is not, it’s not a dirty word. I think it’s, oh yeah, to me it’s only, it only becomes badly weaponized when it’s understood to be the default, the norm and therefore the thing that we should all aspire to. So long as we’re all consenting adults and we’re understanding, like the three of us have very different configurations, but all of them seem to be rooted in understanding what each of us want out of the relationship and having open conversations with those we’re with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, are there folks in your family, folks who you are intimately tied to that do or do not know about your relationship dynamic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my entire, I think my entire extended family knows about my relationship. So they know that I’m part of a throuple. And so that’s the extent of what they know about my relationships. I don’t think any of them know about the sort of consensual non-monogamy openness. It’s in my book, but the joy about writing in a language that most of your family does not speak regularly, because all my family is in Columbia. Is that there was a kind of, for my entire adult life, I’ve sort of always bisected my kind of identities with like gayness and queerness exist in English and then families lives or exist in Spanish. It’s this weird associating mechanism but I’ve, sort of, have needed to survive and grapple with and sort of it has helped me. But it is also. Helped keep those boundaries very separate. But like my mom has met my, my boyfriends, we spent holidays together with my brother and siblings and sort of they understand that like that the three of us are a unit. It did feel like a second coming out, like when I had to explain it, when I have to like tell my mom but she was kind of fantastic about it.Uh, every time she’s like, how are the boys doing? What, like she’s very much involved in that aspect of it, Less so in the like We all go to play parties or I have like anonymous sex during the day. But that’s a nice boundary that I feel comfortable maintaining with my family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, right. Because one thing is to be open about the arrangement. Another thing is for them to read your book, or for example, in my case to listen to my podcast. And I have a similar situation where my mom’s side of the family doesn’t speak English. So that well, my mom and a couple of members, so that that helps. And recently, she was like, Oh, I think I can figure out how to translate your podcast. And I’m like, No, no, no. Please do not do that. Let’s keep that separate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s put it to the people who do know in your life, Fernanda, is there a misconception they have that you had to clear up right away to make sure that they understood you fully and the choices you made fully. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, my mom, as open as she has been, had a lot of questions and concerns at first. Her immediate thought was, she doesn’t love Seth or Seth doesn’t love her. Also, she, she adores Seth. And, you know, they have this really cute relationship because Seth doesn’t speak much Spanish either, but they somehow they communicate, they love each other. It’s wonderful. Um, and she was really afraid that I would be, uh, screwing our relationship up because I was dating other people. So it took a few months and even today, sometimes if I’m talking to my mom about another partner of mine, which I do sometimes, and, she knows that said this around, she’ll be like, shh, shhh, Fernanda, shut up. And I’m like, mom, first of all, we’re speaking Spanish. Second of all said knows about this. There’s, there’s nothing, there is nothing to hide. So there’s still that like impulse. But she’s actually come around and she’s seen how beautiful of a relationship set and I have, and she has become a little bit like of an advocate for at least considering the option, which I find amazing given that a lot of people do not have that relationship with their moms. But what I tell people is, if you really feel like there won’t be an open line of communication and it will just cause judgment and a separation with a family member you still want to be close to, then no need to disclose it. But if you think that there might be a little bit of openness, you might be surprised. You just need to kind of introduce it bit by bit and explain the reasons why this is important to you, why you do this. And you might find that people are more open to it than you thought. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to end with this one question, starting with you Fernanda. What is one thing that you’ve learned about yourself in pursuing non-monogamy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think I have already shared a little bit about this, but that I thrive through connection and through connecting with other people and that that for me is a way of growing personally. So as much as I’m working on finding validation within myself, being my best friend and like working on that relationship with myself too, when I interact with new partners and new people, they do bring out new parts of myself that I wasn’t. Really aware of. So I think, yeah, for me it has to do with how I see life and how connection is kind of the vehicle that I’m taking to grow as a person and as an individual. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a book to recommend to you for now because my entire book is all about like strangers allow ourselves to see ourselves differently, right, like they give us insights into ourselves that we didn’t know we had. I think the thing that I’ve learned the most about well-exploring non-monogamy and the thing I’ve taught myself is that my libido and my desires are not challenges I think for the longest time I constantly thought of myself as needing to reign in my desires, reigning my libido, like just really corral it into something that is understandable, that is legible, that is controllable, that I can handle and show other people. And I think the thing that I’ve not realized, like I’ve actually worked hard to sort of rewire is that acting on them and acting on them ethically and honestly a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd with the support and encouragement of my Partners.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s kind of beauty in them. There is a kind of beauty in being able to sort of follow your bliss and your desire. And to really let that be a really fun way of interacting with the world and with other people and with strangers and with known people and that it’s not about yeah, controlling. I think for the for the longest time, I felt like my desires needed to be sort of caged and domesticated. And instead of just like not let them run wild, but actually allowing myself to follow through them and see where they lead me. And they’ve led into a lot of really fun different places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To use the language from the intro, just like break free, like Ariana Grande ourselves out of this like prison and just do what we feel is right. Well, I wanna thank each of you for such a lovely informative conversation, especially again, coming from my particular POV, it’s so wonderful to hear other people, especially other Latinos talk about relationships, talk about love and sex, and really get me to change some of these long-held beliefs I had. So I really appreciate your time and you being here with us today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you Xorge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I do want to remind our listeners that you can follow our guests Fernanda has a podcast the poly curious podcast Manuel has a couple books including hello stranger Which is now available all of that information will be in our show notes and also where you can find each of them on social Media and if want to send us an email just email us at HYP at kqed.org Especially if you wanna share your non monogamy experiences, but until then, hasta luego. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host Xorje Olivares has never been one for sharing, especially when it comes to a lover. This week on Hyphenación, Xorje speaks with Fernanda Fabian and Manuel Betancourt, two seasoned practitioners of non-monogamy, to talk about breaking free from monogamy, their relationships with their Latino parents, and following desires.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2996639416&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/bQx1tKELmuI'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/bQx1tKELmuI'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fernanda Fabian (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/show/3TpsmC4gNO618CZe0Ou1Fr?si=2a537b3e4c744acb\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polycurious Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/tWXsCwpkPvsAnVxWsVf7cJ7v8X?domain=polycurious.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3ZY7CxklQwf9jRv3IvhZcy77Zp?domain=instagram.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/4QMRCyPmRxs032oRhQiJcxH2z9?domain=tiktok.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiktok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/ujVBCzpn0ysxzwqAiKslc9YehK?domain=patreon.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patreon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Manuel Betancourt (\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/757080/hello-stranger-by-manuel-betancourt/\">\u003ci>Hello Stranger\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bmanuel/?hl=en\">Instagram\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://mbetancourtcom.wordpress.com/\">Website\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know we’re only just now starting to get to know each other, but there’s something about me you have to know. And believe me, once I tell you, you’re probably going to look at me in a completely different light. Which is a risk I’m willing to take if it means standing in my truth. Ok. Here it goes: I – Xorje Andrés Olivares Urbina – am an aggressive monogamist. I know, right? Y con este cuerpazo? I should be sharing it with everyone who has a thing for chaparritos like me!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But alas, I’ve never been one for sharing…at least not when it comes to my romantic partners. In fact, when I was dating, it was one of the first few questions I would ask: it was like “what do you do for work? Any siblings? What are your concrete thoughts on open relationships and are you ok having sex with me and just me?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay it was never that forward as that, but I was pretty clear upfront with any potential suitor that – I was looking for an exclusive partner. For me, that meant having them as my only love interest, and I theirs. And I want to make sure I specify “love interest” because I absolutely understand that a single person cannot fulfill our every need as adults. That’s what friends, family, coworkers, hobbies are for and I’m not one of those tóxicas. Or am I? But seriously, am I being too rigid in my thinking on this? Should we ALL be breaking free from the prison of monogamy? I’m Xorje Olivares, and today I’m asking the question: Are you comfortable sharing your partner with another lover?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenación – where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve been really looking forward to today’s conversation because it is such a sexy topic, I felt like we needed to start with a sexy question. And so I’m gonna ask my two guests who are joining me today what they find sexy in another person. Because for me, it is tattoos. If somebody walks in with tattoos right now and like a bonus if they got an ear pierced, then I am just putty in their hands. And yes, do with that imagery what you will. I’m excited to first welcome to the program Fernanda Fabian, who is a relationship coach and the host of the Polycurious podcast, where she facilitates conversations about non-monogamy. Fernanda, thank you so much for joining us today. And I want to ask you, what do you find sexy in another person? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that question. And you know, my answer might surprise you a little bit because I’m not sure everyone feels that way. But one thing that I always find attractive is when someone says that they’re going to therapy. Because that means that they are actually working on themselves. They’re actually introspective. Hopefully that means they might be better communicating or more aware of their issues. And to me, as much as I do care about physical appearance, sometimes just someone who’s working on their stuff and is able to communicate is just a turn-on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love that. Making me think differently about this whole topic. Well, thank you so much for joining us and for providing that answer.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also excited to welcome Manuel Betancourt, who is a culture writer and the author of the new book, Hello Stranger, which talks about the seductive potential of what it means to be with strangers. Manuel, what is something you find sexy in another person? Whether it is a physical trait, personality trait… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was struggling. I was like, do I go with the physical trade? I love me some arms. So a nice bicep is sort of where-that’s my sweet spot. But for me, the thing that really grabs me is confidence. Like if someone can walk into a room and sort of lock eyes with me, and just that’s what turns me into putty. That’s what sort of makes me melt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I’m excited for us to have this chat. And I want us to get into this, especially starting with you Fernanda, about if you could tell us about what your relationship dynamics are and how you started this journey towards what you talk about in your podcast, Polycurious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course. So I actually have a very interesting dynamic, which I like to talk about, because I believe that other people might want to consider it. In my case, I am non-monogamous. I’m playing with calling myself poly at this point, because I recently started seeing someone that I’m calling my partner, but that had never happened before. However, my primary partner, who I have been with for almost seven years, is monogamous. So as you can imagine, that’s a very rare situation, rare dynamic, where one person is monogamous and the other person is non-monogamous, especially if the non-monogamous person is the woman. So I’m not an advocate for monogamy or non-monogamy. I just think that people should do whatever works for them. And for me and my partner, that is what works. So that’s why I decided to start the podcast, become a coach and do this work to show other people that it’s possible to do it in a healthy way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Manuel, I like the phrasing that Fernanda used about just what works for you. What currently works for you? What is your relationship dynamic currently?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, my current relationship dynamic is, I’m in what people would normally call a throuple. And so there’s three of us, and I met them when they had been together for five years. And so we started sort of hanging out, and it soon was clear that the three of us were sort of operating as a unit, as a romantic unit. And so, we like to say that we’re sort of this closed romantic triangle, but it’s very porous sexually. So we sort of practice, it’s an open relationship. We practice consensual non-monogamy. We’re very open and honest about what we do and what we allow ourselves to do with other people, sometimes with each other, sometimes at different place spaces. And that’s sort of what works for us right now. And that came from after being years monogamous sort of marriage. And after I got divorced, I made a conscious choice of what I realized that I wanted, what I realized that what I was looking for and really wanted in a relationship was a kind of openness. And so I never set out to be like, okay, now I’m going to be part of a throuple or now I am going to be a part of poly relationship or polycule. It’s just, as soon as I open the floodgates in my mind to be, like, I’m gonna be open to any kind of relationship dynamic. That grows organically and that sort of fulfills me romantically, sexually, you know, spiritually in all these different ways, like I’m just going to follow that. And what happened was sort of this, um, the throuple and we’re now going on. It’s going to be almost three years now. And Thats where I’m at right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do want to ask Manuel, if there was any hesitation on your part to joining some relationship dynamic. They already knew how to talk to each other. They already know how to fight with one another. They already how to, like, what their body language was with one another. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">absolutely. And in this, the thing that helped me was that I was in therapy. The thing that I talked about during those first few weeks in therapy was like, I don’t know if I can do this. And like, I needed someone to help me, guide me through and to sort of feel, because it felt like I wasn’t just joining a relationship. It was like I was joining a kind of partnership. They had been together for a while, they lived together, they had this like life together. Like, calibrating that took like a year, just sort of trying to find our bearings so that we would all feel comfortable. Because there was also hesitation on their part, Like they were, this was something that was established and they were also not looking for a third, they were not looking to sort of change. Their dynamic, a lot of stuff they had sort of down pat. And I then became the thing that illuminated a lot of stuff about their relationship and sort of the thing that my therapist at the time kept saying was like, you know, if you found yourself in this situation it’s because there was room for you in the relationship and that they’re making room for that being sort of a very active choice that the three of us were making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like a lot of this comes down to communication. Each of you have talked a little bit about that. And I want to go to you Fernanda and ask about what that communication looked like with your partner where you’ve brought up this notion of maybe we should try something a little different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course, I actually brought it up the second day we met, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, okay,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, by the time I met Seth, we actually met at Burning Man. So I think that also contributed to us being like super open and honest from the beginning. So, uh, we were both coming from a very like open space and, you know, the second day, the second night we met, we already felt like this was something really special, sometimes that doesn’t last after Burning Man, but in our case it did. So we were just like putting everything on the table. At that point I had friends that were open. I wasn’t non-monogamous in a primary relationship but I was already having friends with benefits that knew about each other and I was already clear that that’s what I wanted. And when I brought it up, he said, you know, I’m open to it and, you know we’ll figure it out. And then about like a month after we met, he was actually living in San Francisco, I was living in New York, and we were visiting each other and at some point he was like, hey, do you want to be my girlfriend? Which I found adorable because I hadn’t been asked that since high school. But I was like really into him, like feeling like this was really right and I just said yes. And then about like 15 minutes later, I was like hold on one second, does this mean that I cannot have sex with other people. Is that what being a girlfriend means? And he was like, yes. And I was like okay, well, that’s fine. I can make that sacrifice. But I could do that because I knew from the beginning that he was open to it down the line. He was very clear. He said, right now I don’t feel ready for that, but I want to give you what you want. I don’t know if I can, but I will try. So let’s go on stages. He’s also an introvert, so he loves his alone time and he loves to stay home. I’m an extrovert. So for him, it’s not like he’s opposed to non-monogamy and obviously he has the option and I hope that one day he finds someone that he wants to explore with, but he just doesn’t feel the need. So, you know, it was a slow process. And at some points, I was like, Oh, can I just, can I do it? Can I just go on the date? Because he’d be like, Okay, you can, You know, you can go on a date with someone, but they, you know… It’s better if they have a partner as well, and it’s better if it’s someone that you knew before you met me, so it’s not as much of a threat. There were important steps, because they gave him the opportunity to get used to that. So obviously, the first time I went to a play party, the first time I went on a date, he was having a difficult time, but he honestly is amazing and never put that jealousy or that like discomfort on me. He did say, okay, I’m feeling a little bit like, I don’t want to be close to you when you come back from dates, for example, because I’m having a hard time. So then we agreed that when I’d come back from a date which like for me was the opposite. I was just like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You want to tell him all the information! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was just like on cloud nine from meeting a new person. And then, you know, interestingly enough, that sexual energy, that new relationship energy, as people call it, actually comes back to my primary relationship. So I’d want to connect, you know, and even if we didn’t have sex, I want to like be close and cuddle. And he’d be like, okay, I need a little bit of more time to reconnect after you come back from a date. So we, it was a lot of trial and error. I always recommend people to do it that way, because if we had just started…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gone off the deep end\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cb> …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">open right away. He might have had a lot of jealousy, insecurity, a lot of difficult emotions, and it would have been a lot more difficult to actually get where we wanted to go because there would have been a lots of missteps and then repair and all of that. Although some people argue that you should start open right away if that’s what you want, which I think if you have experience with non-monogamy, if you both have experiences with non monogamy that can also work potentially, but The way it worked for me was to. Go very slowly, reassess, talk about feelings, and move from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just feel like it might be so hard I can see that like it takes those early conversations, it takes figuring out what the parameters are, figuring out what your boundaries are. And so Manuel was it easy once you started pursuing non- monogamy to be open and honest and transparent about your feelings of like That’s okay with me and that’s not okay with me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it took a while. And the other part was, I was dealing with two people, two people who had gone through that process and had figured it out for themselves. So they knew what worked for one another, what parties they go to, what was allowed and what was not allowed. So by the time I came in, there was like no rules. They were very like, you can do whatever you want. A lot of it was sexual. Like we don’t, romantic and dates, like those are not really things of the three of us partake or are interested. I think also because there’s three of us, so they’re like, there’s just enough, just a scheduling a date between the three of us is hard enough. Like, trying just to like… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m free Thursday at 3, but then yeah, I don’t quite know where that fits in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, but trying to figure out what I was comfortable with, that maybe the two of them had figured out, worked for them, and then I would be like, oh, actually, like, I get pangs of jealousy, but I don’t want to disrupt what the two them had achieved. So it did took a little bit of a while. It was a little bit of trial and error and I think the thing I kept coming back to is like, it’s okay to be jealous. It’s not okay to make that jealousy that someone else’s problem, right? Like, I can have those feelings, I can have feelings of fear, of anxiety, of inadequacy, of jealousy, like, but learning to not lead with those and learning not to act on those instinctively. Took a while– What does this mean? Is it because I’m insecure? Is it because I need more cuddling? Is it because I need more reassurance? Is it because I felt like you were choosing someone else over me? Uh and it took a while to sort of learn the language. I feel like it still happens to us like sometimes none of this is perfect. Uh none of it is like you you know you don’t get like a diploma and say now, you’re great at being poly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it’s sort of every single time is something different. And I have gotten better at it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna share a quick story. My partner and I just recently got engaged and it was a fun little like, oh my God, we did it moment. But it was funny because at least two different people after we announced our engagement came up to us and asked us if this was now the moment we were gonna try to be in an open relationship. And I thought it was interesting because it kind of came almost as soon as they said, congratulations. I was like, oh, okay, now you’re making me think at a time where I didn’t know we were going to. Confronted with this question. But I will say that especially as a queer person, as a cisgender gay man, I feel like I receive a lot of judgment because of my decision to be monogamous and because I am pursuing something that seems to feel a bit more heteronormative and a bit more traditional. But I do want to focus in on this issue of judgment. And starting with you Fernanda about having to navigate, feeling judged, not just by family, whoever else you encounter, but by people you feel very close with and wanna feel like you have a deep connection to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course. Well, I have to be honest. I’ve been very, very lucky. I grew up in a very liberal family, even though we grew up in Mexico. I’m Mexican. My mom’s side of the family is Cuban, very liberal. We’ve always talked about sex and things like that. And yeah, I didn’t really have a hard time in that realm. I also became non monogamous in Brooklyn, which is… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…the epicenter for exploration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The epicenter, exactly, exactly. And have always moved in very liberal circles. Again, the Burning Man community. So I have personally not faced much judgment with close people. However, on social media, I sometimes, especially on TikTok, for some reason on Instagram, I don’t get that much hate, but on TikTok I’ve even had people like recording videos criticizing what I’m doing, especially because… My partner is monogamous and people make an assumption that I’m taking advantage of him. And there’s a lot of layers of feeling like what I’m doing is unethical or something along those lines. I don’t I don’ feel any shame around it, however We’re not fully open. As I mentioned, my partner comes from a religious family. And I understand that their views of marriage and sex are very, very different from mine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what has been difficult for me has been to have to hide. Obviously, now this is my career, right? So I often have to hid a little bit what I’m doing as to not damage those relationships with those people that I really care for. And they care for me a lot. But I know that if they knew. Again, especially because their family member, my partner is monogamous, they would just completely change the way they see me and it would just create a lot of issues which I’m trying to avoid. So that’s been difficult. However, what you said is interesting about the gay community being almost judgmental the other way around, of like, why aren’t you being… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m making that up, Manuel or is that true? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, no, I it is a kind of it becomes like a lose lose situation because like if you’re on the one end, they’re like, oh, then you’re clearly just buying into this heteronormative patriarchal traditional assimilationist kind of strategy. And how dare you leave the rest of us radicals behind? Or on the other end, like, you know, you’re breaking all the institutions apart. So how dare you then not leave anything, is nothing sacred? I think for me, what I’ve always come down to is that so long as it’s a choice and it’s a conscious choice that you’re making, like monogamy is not, it’s not a dirty word. I think it’s, oh yeah, to me it’s only, it only becomes badly weaponized when it’s understood to be the default, the norm and therefore the thing that we should all aspire to. So long as we’re all consenting adults and we’re understanding, like the three of us have very different configurations, but all of them seem to be rooted in understanding what each of us want out of the relationship and having open conversations with those we’re with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, are there folks in your family, folks who you are intimately tied to that do or do not know about your relationship dynamic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my entire, I think my entire extended family knows about my relationship. So they know that I’m part of a throuple. And so that’s the extent of what they know about my relationships. I don’t think any of them know about the sort of consensual non-monogamy openness. It’s in my book, but the joy about writing in a language that most of your family does not speak regularly, because all my family is in Columbia. Is that there was a kind of, for my entire adult life, I’ve sort of always bisected my kind of identities with like gayness and queerness exist in English and then families lives or exist in Spanish. It’s this weird associating mechanism but I’ve, sort of, have needed to survive and grapple with and sort of it has helped me. But it is also. Helped keep those boundaries very separate. But like my mom has met my, my boyfriends, we spent holidays together with my brother and siblings and sort of they understand that like that the three of us are a unit. It did feel like a second coming out, like when I had to explain it, when I have to like tell my mom but she was kind of fantastic about it.Uh, every time she’s like, how are the boys doing? What, like she’s very much involved in that aspect of it, Less so in the like We all go to play parties or I have like anonymous sex during the day. But that’s a nice boundary that I feel comfortable maintaining with my family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, right. Because one thing is to be open about the arrangement. Another thing is for them to read your book, or for example, in my case to listen to my podcast. And I have a similar situation where my mom’s side of the family doesn’t speak English. So that well, my mom and a couple of members, so that that helps. And recently, she was like, Oh, I think I can figure out how to translate your podcast. And I’m like, No, no, no. Please do not do that. Let’s keep that separate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s put it to the people who do know in your life, Fernanda, is there a misconception they have that you had to clear up right away to make sure that they understood you fully and the choices you made fully. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, my mom, as open as she has been, had a lot of questions and concerns at first. Her immediate thought was, she doesn’t love Seth or Seth doesn’t love her. Also, she, she adores Seth. And, you know, they have this really cute relationship because Seth doesn’t speak much Spanish either, but they somehow they communicate, they love each other. It’s wonderful. Um, and she was really afraid that I would be, uh, screwing our relationship up because I was dating other people. So it took a few months and even today, sometimes if I’m talking to my mom about another partner of mine, which I do sometimes, and, she knows that said this around, she’ll be like, shh, shhh, Fernanda, shut up. And I’m like, mom, first of all, we’re speaking Spanish. Second of all said knows about this. There’s, there’s nothing, there is nothing to hide. So there’s still that like impulse. But she’s actually come around and she’s seen how beautiful of a relationship set and I have, and she has become a little bit like of an advocate for at least considering the option, which I find amazing given that a lot of people do not have that relationship with their moms. But what I tell people is, if you really feel like there won’t be an open line of communication and it will just cause judgment and a separation with a family member you still want to be close to, then no need to disclose it. But if you think that there might be a little bit of openness, you might be surprised. You just need to kind of introduce it bit by bit and explain the reasons why this is important to you, why you do this. And you might find that people are more open to it than you thought. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to end with this one question, starting with you Fernanda. What is one thing that you’ve learned about yourself in pursuing non-monogamy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think I have already shared a little bit about this, but that I thrive through connection and through connecting with other people and that that for me is a way of growing personally. So as much as I’m working on finding validation within myself, being my best friend and like working on that relationship with myself too, when I interact with new partners and new people, they do bring out new parts of myself that I wasn’t. Really aware of. So I think, yeah, for me it has to do with how I see life and how connection is kind of the vehicle that I’m taking to grow as a person and as an individual. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a book to recommend to you for now because my entire book is all about like strangers allow ourselves to see ourselves differently, right, like they give us insights into ourselves that we didn’t know we had. I think the thing that I’ve learned the most about well-exploring non-monogamy and the thing I’ve taught myself is that my libido and my desires are not challenges I think for the longest time I constantly thought of myself as needing to reign in my desires, reigning my libido, like just really corral it into something that is understandable, that is legible, that is controllable, that I can handle and show other people. And I think the thing that I’ve not realized, like I’ve actually worked hard to sort of rewire is that acting on them and acting on them ethically and honestly a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd with the support and encouragement of my Partners.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s kind of beauty in them. There is a kind of beauty in being able to sort of follow your bliss and your desire. And to really let that be a really fun way of interacting with the world and with other people and with strangers and with known people and that it’s not about yeah, controlling. I think for the for the longest time, I felt like my desires needed to be sort of caged and domesticated. And instead of just like not let them run wild, but actually allowing myself to follow through them and see where they lead me. And they’ve led into a lot of really fun different places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To use the language from the intro, just like break free, like Ariana Grande ourselves out of this like prison and just do what we feel is right. Well, I wanna thank each of you for such a lovely informative conversation, especially again, coming from my particular POV, it’s so wonderful to hear other people, especially other Latinos talk about relationships, talk about love and sex, and really get me to change some of these long-held beliefs I had. So I really appreciate your time and you being here with us today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you Xorge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I do want to remind our listeners that you can follow our guests Fernanda has a podcast the poly curious podcast Manuel has a couple books including hello stranger Which is now available all of that information will be in our show notes and also where you can find each of them on social Media and if want to send us an email just email us at HYP at kqed.org Especially if you wanna share your non monogamy experiences, but until then, hasta luego. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "hyphenacion-papeles-what-does-u-s-citizenship-mean-today",
"title": "Papeles: What Does U.S. Citizenship Mean Today?",
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"content": "\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Documentation divides the Latino community in the U.S. between those whose existence in this country is permitted and those who are criminalized for their very presence. This line of legality has been drawn deeper and has changed quickly during the second Trump administration. In the face of this uncertainty, host Xorje Olivares speaks with authors Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cem>The Undocumented Americans\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">) and Javier Zamora (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cem>Solito\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\" data-slate-fragment=\"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\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">) to ask “What does citizenship mean, today?”\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4175855502&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/tWwcVpxmuIc\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/karlarrriot/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Instagram\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/558229/the-undocumented-americans-by-karla-cornejo-villavicencio/\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cem>\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>The Undocumented Americans\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Javier Zamora \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/jzsalvipoet/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>(\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/jzsalvipoet/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Instagram\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/705626/solito-a-read-with-jenna-pick-by-javier-zamora/\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Solito\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: You know, I’ve probably been asked more than 1,000 times if I’m a U.S. citizen, and that’s not even an exaggeration. Growing up in a town along the U.S.-Mexico border, I constantly had to verify my documentation status and citizenship to U.S. Customs and Border Patrol agents. And to be clear, this wasn’t even when we were crossing the border. We were just going outside city limits, still within the state. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’d go a little something like this. My family and I would drive to an inspection point where an armed, uniformed officer would approach the car window. Upon lowering it, they’d promptly ask, “‘You a citizen?’ To which we’d each respond, “‘Yes, U.S. citizen.'” And that was it. Unless my late Tio was traveling with us. Because he was a permanent resident, not a U.S. Citizen, he’d quietly hand over his green card and await further questions, which he never really got. But I’m talking about more than 10 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because this process felt so normalized to us, I never thought to ask him how he felt during those interactions. I know for me, as a third generation Texan born into citizenship, I never felt worried during these exchanges, which I know is a huge privilege. But I did learn early on that asking for someone’s documentation is a high-stakes question and the gun at the officer’s hip, the giant fence just minutes away from my house, was proof of that somehow. Even though I was born, legit, less than two miles away from the Rio Grande, I’m on one side of a line, a line that the United States government has used to decide that my existence in this country is permitted, while others are criminalized. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, as you may have heard, the undocumented community has been placed at the center of some very aggressive immigration policies right now. There are promises to deport millions of undocumented people and to end birthright citizenship, which is a constitutional protection. And on top of that, the current administration is threatening deportation against U.S. citizens. So at this moment, the line of criminality is being drawn deeper and is changing very quickly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorge Olivares, and I wanna ask this question. What does the idea of citizenship even mean today? This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So joining me today to have this conversation are two people who have written extensively about the issue of documentation and citizenship. I wanna ask each of them if there is a written work, a piece of written work that they feel is very important for us to be reading right now. So first, excited to welcome to the program Carla Cornejo via Vicentio. She’s the author of the book, The Undocumented Americans, which chronicles the experiences of many undocumented people in this country. So Karla, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, and I want to ask if you have a recommendation for listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, thanks for having me. I would recommend Pedro Le Mebel’s My Tender Matador or in Spanish, it’s Tengo Miedo Torero. It’s a Chilean novel set during the Pinochet years and it’s about like an aging drag queen and trans woman who just survives those years with incredible imagination and. glamor and melodrama and I found it very inspiring and it’s pretty slim too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Thank you for sharing that. Also, I love a queer story. I will always add queer stories to my repertoire of books. Also excited to welcome to the program Javier Zamora, who is best known for his 2022 memoir, Solito, which chronicled his own experience as an unaccompanied minor going from El Salvador to the United States. Javier, thank you so much for joining us today and asking if you also have a recommendation for a piece of written work that we should be reading. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do. I think the unexpected perk of publishing a book is getting books in advance. And there’s this forthcoming one by Daisy Hernandez called Citizenship, a Story. And the subtitle is Notes on Origin, Familias, and Who We Are. And it’s going to come out in early 2026. and I genuinely think everybody should read it because she talks directly about this idea, which is an idea about citizenship, and countries, and race, and sexuality, like all these things that are affecting us today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you each for those suggestions. And for again, joining me today, I, I like that you’re getting at exactly what we’re hoping to talk about during this episode, which is the idea of citizenship. Yes, there is the, by the books, understanding of what citizenship means, especially here in the United States, but it also is an idea in the sense of being documented is also an idea. But I want to ask, starting with you Javier, this notion of documentation. And when you became fully aware that you were undocumented, or that the United State’s government viewed you as such. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know what? I had no idea. You know, I was just a kid. Like I didn’t, my nine year old brain didn’t understand why we didn’t come on a plane per se. I just thought that yes we didn’t get a visa but there was no understanding of borders, passports and legality. But I don’t think I truly understood. or it began to hit, that I was different, completely different, until 9-11 happened. Around that time, my parents were hoping that because they had fled a war-torn area and they had applied to this thing called Nakata and political asylum, my dad was one of immigrants and I think could be the man. that he was very sure that the green card was gonna arrive at the mailbox and he didn’t hire a lawyer. And it’s by sheer bad luck that our appointment happened the first week of October of 2001. And so then my first instances of understanding that, oh, sh-t, like, we have to be afraid, is that we had… a huge break, because when you interview, you’re always down to just one person. And it’s usually for us, it has always been a white man who has to like validate whether your story and your testimony is true. And he thought that our story wasn’t true. But he did, instead of directly sending us to deportation, he did allow us to go seek a lawyer immediately. And so I’m 11 years old and I remember running through downtown to the financial district of San Francisco, looking for an immigration lawyer that would help us stay. We were under deportation proceedings, but somehow we stayed. And again, you know, I was 11 and it wasn’t until I got to college that I would, that I completely began to like read and understand what my family’s legal story was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that experience. I want to ask you, Karla, if you remember growing up just how you had to navigate this status that had been placed upon you by the government and by people who didn’t know where you were coming from, where your family was coming from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would equate being undocumented with feeling perpetually unsafe. It’s not necessarily the same thing as feeling always afraid, but you’re certainly always unsafe, you’re always precarious. And I knew that, just as I knew that as a girl, like I could be abused by a man at any time, as an undocumented girl, I felt like the state could do anything to me at any times as well. So it was, it was scary growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I think this, this issue of safety is what most people forget when we have this much larger conversation about immigration is that there is an element of feeling unsafe that folks are trying, whether in their country of origin, even here in the States that they’re trying to relieve themselves of. Part of the thing that I guess you learn early on, even when you are not undocumented, I’ll say is I understood this issue or this notion of papeles and that documentation needed to exist. And so I’m curious, Javier, if this just the language of papeleis resonates with you or means something with you and if it did at a very early age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that word citizenship, I think I learned in school. You know the, the first instance was my parents, you know, when I mentioned, oh, the green card is going to come. He didn’t even say the word green card. Los papeles van a llegar, nos van a mandar los papeles. So like this idea of a piece of paper. It’s not like, to me, I think as a nine year old, you know, learning English and I knew I was different and I knew that I couldn’t tell my friends because my parents told me not to tell anybody how I had gotten to this country. By \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">10,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 5th, 6th grade, I also learned a story to tell people that I had been born at the local hospital. But all these things, I still didn’t understand these ideas of citizenship. What I did understand was that I didn’t have a piece of paper. And usually as a nine, 10 year old, that piece of paper with a birth certificate that didn’t say that I had been born in this country\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, kind of similar to what Javier just mentioned. Did you create certain stories or narratives? Like to protect yourself, just so that way you knew that nobody would be able to figure something out that could then be used against you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure, I mean, that’s when I started my campaign of personal misinformation. I don’t really give people access to myself. And that is obviously something that I learned. I’m not, I don’t deceive, but I also do not feel like the world is entitled to my interiority. And it’s the one thing that I’ve had that has belonged to me, has just been my mind. And so I’m very protective of it. And I think growing up, I learned how to have conversations where I learned to navigate social situations while staying safe, right? And some of that involves knowing when to be invisible and knowing when to stand out a little bit more, learning how to like a pretty intuitive understanding of that. And I mean, I guess that’s part of the story. It was that I was just Um, like an elusive chanteuse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if I can hear, I think, you know, Karla’s book was published before I published anything in prose. And I did those were the parts of your book, Karla, that really spoke to me because I had never really read anybody like address this almost like superpower that we don’t want, but we learn in order to to remain safe. And that is exactly what it feels like. And I think that term that you just mentioned, I think it’s brilliant. And it helped me even as a 30-year-old man begin to learn something of how I had lived my life for 20 years up to that point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really sweet Javier, thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to pull into this, what Karla just said about the invisibility and the visibility dynamics. I’m curious, Javier, about your own navigation of invisibility, invisibility and when you realized you preferred one over another. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For me, I think like most stories begins in the relationship that you have with your parents. For me my dad was absent for my first nine years of my life, but my mom was there, but then she left. But before she left, you know, she was a young teenage mom and I think she really pressed upon this at times, toxic relationship of you have to be the best. You have to be the valedictorian in order to get a free uniform and free books. And you are going to be my ticket out and our ticket out of poverty. And so I had to navigate this hyper visibility. I knew that I had to had to be an honor roll student in order to get ahead and also get out of poverty, but also to hide and be invisible at different times in order to stay in this country and not go back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, one of the most, uh, kind of explicit moments of visibility is the fact that each of you have written something about your experiences. And I love that Javier, you mentioned how Karla’s book was kind of one of the, the first that you were able to see where this experience had been shared and I do want to ask, I’m going to ask both of you, but I want to start with you, Carla about the decision to write the book and to place yourself in such a vulnerable position by talking about a subject that most people would be quite scared to share.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story that I tell is that I kind of fell into it because like Trump won the first time and I felt like there was like nothing really that felt representative to me of what being undocumented felt like. I think I desperately needed to witness what was happening in the first Trump administration. I think that I knew one of the things I learned just intuitively growing up is what it’s like to be a sort of a powerless being and the sort of the little safeties that you build up over the years, you know, like Javier said, a lot of that happens academically, happens through standing out academically, like melting into the background is something that, speaking for myself, was dangerous, would have condemned me to a sameness of sort of the world around me, and that was un-conceivable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, similarly to what Karla just said, you know, I think, again, there aren’t, there weren’t many complete or dignified representations of immigrants during the first Trump administration. It was like all these white liberals were like, oh my god, we never heard of undocumented people before when we’ve been here all along. Let me write some, you know, not thought out book about it. This happened all the time during the first administration. And somehow there were some glimmers, some diamonds there like Karla’s book, you knows, Antonio Arguez’s book. But then there was nothing. And so for me, I think I was also, you I was writing poetry. And I didn’t like what I had produced, my first book of poems came out in 2017 uh, write on as he took power the first time. And I felt that poetry couldn’t tell my whole story. But then there were a lot of these non-immigrants writing about immigrants. And it made me think, you know, talking about hyper visibility and like this valedictorian mentality, which I wasn’t a valedictorian, but I wanted to be. Um, but I could do it better. I can tell this story better than all these non-immigrants. And so I think that’s how I entered it. By that point, I also had the comfort of having a green card with my book of poems. I did not have a green card. I’m not a citizen yet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would I publish the book now? Yes. But I think our stories are necessary at the end of the day. If I have ever written something that jeopardizes my own legal status in this country, and if I get to be sent out because of anything that I said for any shirt that I’m wearing for saying free Palestine, then you know, honestly I don’t need this country. You know, why are we trying to? be such good quote unquote citizens in order for what you know the the U.S. is showing its colors and it always has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to take a break and when we come back, focus a little bit on the representation that you have shared with the world. We’re gonna get a short, little break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we were talking about dignified representation and the fact that each of you saw a moment to be able to share your story. And Carla, when I introduced you, I mentioned again that your book was called the undocumented Americans. And I love the juxtaposition of those words, especially because I feel like in this national narrative in the political discourse, most people will say on one particular side of the aisle that those two words don’t necessarily go together. So I’m curious for you about the choice to title your book. undocumented Americans, where they can coexist as a hyphenation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, people can’t really take the term, the hemispheric term America. The publishers recommended undocumented America, which felt to me like very national geographic. And I was like, no. And then I wanted to be a little bit of a b-tch. And I want it to… I want it to be an homage to Henry James. So I want to call it The Undocumented Americans. And yeah, I mean, I don’t really feel too intimately with the name, but I do know that my Connecticut State Senator, Chris Murphy, got in trouble for saying something very nice, but very mild, you know? He was just something like, I feel sorry for our neighbors. are the undocumented Americans. And I think maybe he thought that that was the term we’re now using. But he got into so much trouble for it. He got so much hate. I know that because I have a Google alert on the undocumented American. I would get like, like right wing blogs being like, you know, all sorts of things. Poor Chris Murphy. So I think my book did have an impact in that they got Chris Murphy. into a lot of trouble for embracing the term. So people seem to have an issue with it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. I talk about the story of how, you know, I’m always having to say I’m a U S citizen when I’m back home, because it’s a border point, it’s an entry point. And we were always told to say U S citizens, not American citizen, because of this notion of you can be for many part of the Americas. What does that mean? So I think even just that specification of U S citizen was just ingrained in me at such an early age. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to focus on language because there is that notion of American and citizen. And so I want to start with you Javier about if either of those words, American or citizen resonate more with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">None – I’ve never considered myself either. You know, I’ve been, especially since the second administration Trump presidency began, I’ve really been looking at my own trajectory into obtaining papeles. You know, I finally get a green card, When? During the first Trump administration, I’ve had a green card for six years now. And I haven’t applied to become a citizen. And so for me it’s like now that I don’t have to look over my shoulder as much, or so I thought, now we’re learning in this presidency that, oh, a green card is also not as safe as you once thought. And now even facing this very real and almost urgent question for myself because I have to either apply to renew my green card or apply for citizenship next year. And so I’m like, why would I want to become? And what does that mean? What am I gaining? I am gaining a vote. You know, I’ve never voted in my life. Not in El Salvador, I’m not here. But is that, is it political citizenship? What am I gaining socially? I don’t think I will be gaining anything else that I don’t already have. So what is the difference? So I don’t know. I am with you. I’m still actively thinking about it every single day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Karla, are you in a similar situation where you think about it every day, about whether you choose one of those words over another, American or citizen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, my life is not filled with a lot of choices and that’s also not a choice I’m given. So, um, I’m fine with whatever people want to call me so long as it’s not a slur. I guess I do identify as an immigrant. I am naturalized as a citizen, but my brain developed under a certain set of circumstances, and I have a certain set of skills, like I said. So you don’t stop being an immigrant at any point in the legalization process. There is a process of like acculturation. There’s a process with assimilation or not. There’s like so many like things, there’s like code switching. There’s, there’s a certain set of experiences, I think that do unite immigrants but I don’t think that, I don’t think you really stop being an immigrant because it is sort of about being someone who doesn’t have a place that necessarily wants to claim them. And they are kind of looking out for themselves and looking for a place of safety and freedom and dignity. And then you’re willing to move for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I do wanna focus and pivot us a little bit to the future. And I wanna ask in this moment, what do you think we’ve started to understand if anything at all or what is exposed now about the idea of American citizenship?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the empire is crumbling. We can see it. I think that settler colonial colony that the United States is showing its framework. And so for me, you know, the answer, because I do think that artists and writers should look at what is wrong with the world, but also dream of something to provide or gift for the future. For me, I think the answer is easy. The answer was here before white people showed up.It took me 30 plus years for me to even begin to identify as Native, as Indigenous, which I also am. And I think a lot of us in the Latina community are still carrying that shame of being part Black, part Indigenous, and we want to be proud of the small percentage of Spanish or European blood that we have. But that’s not the answer. That is the poison that we within us and we do. And so what is left for the future? For me, the future is looking back and imagining a Turtle Island or the Americas before any white man came here. You know, that is where the answers lie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Karla, are you optimistic about what we can anticipate? Not necessarily in this current administration, but for the years to come, the next 20, 30 years. Will the conversation surrounding citizenship and people who are undocumented, do you think it’ll change or will be kind of what we’ve experienced for generations?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I’m optimistic every day because that’s what keeps me going and that’s why keeps me alive and committing to the human social experiment. But I definitely don’t believe in a utopia ever materializing. I think human beings are bad and selfish and desirous of power in ways that cannot really be trusted. This is something that happened slowly and it happened over time. and it involved the participation and non-participation of a lot of people. And so I would say we need to have people who believe in democracy, even though it might be an illusion and it might be a myth and it may be a pyramid scheme. Like so many things are, like love or religion, like faith, these are things that become real because you all participate in a collective delusion about it. And so I think that people who care to participate in the delusion of democracy, when you could participate in the delusion of many other things, they should run for office. They should become judges. They should become lawyers. They should become doctors who work at free clinics. How do you use yourself and your safety if you are a person who is safe to contribute to the safety of people who have literally no rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna thank both of you for sharing a lot of yourselves, a lot of your experiences and providing your insight on this very difficult topic, especially because of what’s happening politically in the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you wanna follow them and get any of their works, all you have to do is go to our show notes. We will show you how to follow them on social, buy their books, and support everything that they’ve got going on. So please do that. And also, if you want to send us any information about your own story or anything you wanna see represented on hyphenation, just email us at hyp at kqed.org. Thank you all for listening. Hasta luego. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Jim Benett and Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Documentation divides the Latino community in the U.S. between those whose existence in this country is permitted and those who are criminalized for their very presence. This line of legality has been drawn deeper and has changed quickly during the second Trump administration. In the face of this uncertainty, Host Xorje Olivares speaks with authors Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (The Undocumented Americans) and Javier Zamora (Solito) to ask “What does citizenship mean, today?”",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Documentation divides the Latino community in the U.S. between those whose existence in this country is permitted and those who are criminalized for their very presence. This line of legality has been drawn deeper and has changed quickly during the second Trump administration. In the face of this uncertainty, host Xorje Olivares speaks with authors Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cem>The Undocumented Americans\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">) and Javier Zamora (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cem>Solito\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\" data-slate-fragment=\"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\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">) to ask “What does citizenship mean, today?”\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4175855502&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/tWwcVpxmuIc'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/tWwcVpxmuIc'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/karlarrriot/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Instagram\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/558229/the-undocumented-americans-by-karla-cornejo-villavicencio/\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cem>\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>The Undocumented Americans\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Javier Zamora \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/jzsalvipoet/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>(\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/jzsalvipoet/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Instagram\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/705626/solito-a-read-with-jenna-pick-by-javier-zamora/\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Solito\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: You know, I’ve probably been asked more than 1,000 times if I’m a U.S. citizen, and that’s not even an exaggeration. Growing up in a town along the U.S.-Mexico border, I constantly had to verify my documentation status and citizenship to U.S. Customs and Border Patrol agents. And to be clear, this wasn’t even when we were crossing the border. We were just going outside city limits, still within the state. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’d go a little something like this. My family and I would drive to an inspection point where an armed, uniformed officer would approach the car window. Upon lowering it, they’d promptly ask, “‘You a citizen?’ To which we’d each respond, “‘Yes, U.S. citizen.'” And that was it. Unless my late Tio was traveling with us. Because he was a permanent resident, not a U.S. Citizen, he’d quietly hand over his green card and await further questions, which he never really got. But I’m talking about more than 10 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because this process felt so normalized to us, I never thought to ask him how he felt during those interactions. I know for me, as a third generation Texan born into citizenship, I never felt worried during these exchanges, which I know is a huge privilege. But I did learn early on that asking for someone’s documentation is a high-stakes question and the gun at the officer’s hip, the giant fence just minutes away from my house, was proof of that somehow. Even though I was born, legit, less than two miles away from the Rio Grande, I’m on one side of a line, a line that the United States government has used to decide that my existence in this country is permitted, while others are criminalized. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, as you may have heard, the undocumented community has been placed at the center of some very aggressive immigration policies right now. There are promises to deport millions of undocumented people and to end birthright citizenship, which is a constitutional protection. And on top of that, the current administration is threatening deportation against U.S. citizens. So at this moment, the line of criminality is being drawn deeper and is changing very quickly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorge Olivares, and I wanna ask this question. What does the idea of citizenship even mean today? This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So joining me today to have this conversation are two people who have written extensively about the issue of documentation and citizenship. I wanna ask each of them if there is a written work, a piece of written work that they feel is very important for us to be reading right now. So first, excited to welcome to the program Carla Cornejo via Vicentio. She’s the author of the book, The Undocumented Americans, which chronicles the experiences of many undocumented people in this country. So Karla, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, and I want to ask if you have a recommendation for listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, thanks for having me. I would recommend Pedro Le Mebel’s My Tender Matador or in Spanish, it’s Tengo Miedo Torero. It’s a Chilean novel set during the Pinochet years and it’s about like an aging drag queen and trans woman who just survives those years with incredible imagination and. glamor and melodrama and I found it very inspiring and it’s pretty slim too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Thank you for sharing that. Also, I love a queer story. I will always add queer stories to my repertoire of books. Also excited to welcome to the program Javier Zamora, who is best known for his 2022 memoir, Solito, which chronicled his own experience as an unaccompanied minor going from El Salvador to the United States. Javier, thank you so much for joining us today and asking if you also have a recommendation for a piece of written work that we should be reading. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do. I think the unexpected perk of publishing a book is getting books in advance. And there’s this forthcoming one by Daisy Hernandez called Citizenship, a Story. And the subtitle is Notes on Origin, Familias, and Who We Are. And it’s going to come out in early 2026. and I genuinely think everybody should read it because she talks directly about this idea, which is an idea about citizenship, and countries, and race, and sexuality, like all these things that are affecting us today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you each for those suggestions. And for again, joining me today, I, I like that you’re getting at exactly what we’re hoping to talk about during this episode, which is the idea of citizenship. Yes, there is the, by the books, understanding of what citizenship means, especially here in the United States, but it also is an idea in the sense of being documented is also an idea. But I want to ask, starting with you Javier, this notion of documentation. And when you became fully aware that you were undocumented, or that the United State’s government viewed you as such. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know what? I had no idea. You know, I was just a kid. Like I didn’t, my nine year old brain didn’t understand why we didn’t come on a plane per se. I just thought that yes we didn’t get a visa but there was no understanding of borders, passports and legality. But I don’t think I truly understood. or it began to hit, that I was different, completely different, until 9-11 happened. Around that time, my parents were hoping that because they had fled a war-torn area and they had applied to this thing called Nakata and political asylum, my dad was one of immigrants and I think could be the man. that he was very sure that the green card was gonna arrive at the mailbox and he didn’t hire a lawyer. And it’s by sheer bad luck that our appointment happened the first week of October of 2001. And so then my first instances of understanding that, oh, sh-t, like, we have to be afraid, is that we had… a huge break, because when you interview, you’re always down to just one person. And it’s usually for us, it has always been a white man who has to like validate whether your story and your testimony is true. And he thought that our story wasn’t true. But he did, instead of directly sending us to deportation, he did allow us to go seek a lawyer immediately. And so I’m 11 years old and I remember running through downtown to the financial district of San Francisco, looking for an immigration lawyer that would help us stay. We were under deportation proceedings, but somehow we stayed. And again, you know, I was 11 and it wasn’t until I got to college that I would, that I completely began to like read and understand what my family’s legal story was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that experience. I want to ask you, Karla, if you remember growing up just how you had to navigate this status that had been placed upon you by the government and by people who didn’t know where you were coming from, where your family was coming from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would equate being undocumented with feeling perpetually unsafe. It’s not necessarily the same thing as feeling always afraid, but you’re certainly always unsafe, you’re always precarious. And I knew that, just as I knew that as a girl, like I could be abused by a man at any time, as an undocumented girl, I felt like the state could do anything to me at any times as well. So it was, it was scary growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I think this, this issue of safety is what most people forget when we have this much larger conversation about immigration is that there is an element of feeling unsafe that folks are trying, whether in their country of origin, even here in the States that they’re trying to relieve themselves of. Part of the thing that I guess you learn early on, even when you are not undocumented, I’ll say is I understood this issue or this notion of papeles and that documentation needed to exist. And so I’m curious, Javier, if this just the language of papeleis resonates with you or means something with you and if it did at a very early age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that word citizenship, I think I learned in school. You know the, the first instance was my parents, you know, when I mentioned, oh, the green card is going to come. He didn’t even say the word green card. Los papeles van a llegar, nos van a mandar los papeles. So like this idea of a piece of paper. It’s not like, to me, I think as a nine year old, you know, learning English and I knew I was different and I knew that I couldn’t tell my friends because my parents told me not to tell anybody how I had gotten to this country. By \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">10,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 5th, 6th grade, I also learned a story to tell people that I had been born at the local hospital. But all these things, I still didn’t understand these ideas of citizenship. What I did understand was that I didn’t have a piece of paper. And usually as a nine, 10 year old, that piece of paper with a birth certificate that didn’t say that I had been born in this country\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, kind of similar to what Javier just mentioned. Did you create certain stories or narratives? Like to protect yourself, just so that way you knew that nobody would be able to figure something out that could then be used against you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure, I mean, that’s when I started my campaign of personal misinformation. I don’t really give people access to myself. And that is obviously something that I learned. I’m not, I don’t deceive, but I also do not feel like the world is entitled to my interiority. And it’s the one thing that I’ve had that has belonged to me, has just been my mind. And so I’m very protective of it. And I think growing up, I learned how to have conversations where I learned to navigate social situations while staying safe, right? And some of that involves knowing when to be invisible and knowing when to stand out a little bit more, learning how to like a pretty intuitive understanding of that. And I mean, I guess that’s part of the story. It was that I was just Um, like an elusive chanteuse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if I can hear, I think, you know, Karla’s book was published before I published anything in prose. And I did those were the parts of your book, Karla, that really spoke to me because I had never really read anybody like address this almost like superpower that we don’t want, but we learn in order to to remain safe. And that is exactly what it feels like. And I think that term that you just mentioned, I think it’s brilliant. And it helped me even as a 30-year-old man begin to learn something of how I had lived my life for 20 years up to that point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really sweet Javier, thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to pull into this, what Karla just said about the invisibility and the visibility dynamics. I’m curious, Javier, about your own navigation of invisibility, invisibility and when you realized you preferred one over another. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For me, I think like most stories begins in the relationship that you have with your parents. For me my dad was absent for my first nine years of my life, but my mom was there, but then she left. But before she left, you know, she was a young teenage mom and I think she really pressed upon this at times, toxic relationship of you have to be the best. You have to be the valedictorian in order to get a free uniform and free books. And you are going to be my ticket out and our ticket out of poverty. And so I had to navigate this hyper visibility. I knew that I had to had to be an honor roll student in order to get ahead and also get out of poverty, but also to hide and be invisible at different times in order to stay in this country and not go back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, one of the most, uh, kind of explicit moments of visibility is the fact that each of you have written something about your experiences. And I love that Javier, you mentioned how Karla’s book was kind of one of the, the first that you were able to see where this experience had been shared and I do want to ask, I’m going to ask both of you, but I want to start with you, Carla about the decision to write the book and to place yourself in such a vulnerable position by talking about a subject that most people would be quite scared to share.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story that I tell is that I kind of fell into it because like Trump won the first time and I felt like there was like nothing really that felt representative to me of what being undocumented felt like. I think I desperately needed to witness what was happening in the first Trump administration. I think that I knew one of the things I learned just intuitively growing up is what it’s like to be a sort of a powerless being and the sort of the little safeties that you build up over the years, you know, like Javier said, a lot of that happens academically, happens through standing out academically, like melting into the background is something that, speaking for myself, was dangerous, would have condemned me to a sameness of sort of the world around me, and that was un-conceivable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, similarly to what Karla just said, you know, I think, again, there aren’t, there weren’t many complete or dignified representations of immigrants during the first Trump administration. It was like all these white liberals were like, oh my god, we never heard of undocumented people before when we’ve been here all along. Let me write some, you know, not thought out book about it. This happened all the time during the first administration. And somehow there were some glimmers, some diamonds there like Karla’s book, you knows, Antonio Arguez’s book. But then there was nothing. And so for me, I think I was also, you I was writing poetry. And I didn’t like what I had produced, my first book of poems came out in 2017 uh, write on as he took power the first time. And I felt that poetry couldn’t tell my whole story. But then there were a lot of these non-immigrants writing about immigrants. And it made me think, you know, talking about hyper visibility and like this valedictorian mentality, which I wasn’t a valedictorian, but I wanted to be. Um, but I could do it better. I can tell this story better than all these non-immigrants. And so I think that’s how I entered it. By that point, I also had the comfort of having a green card with my book of poems. I did not have a green card. I’m not a citizen yet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would I publish the book now? Yes. But I think our stories are necessary at the end of the day. If I have ever written something that jeopardizes my own legal status in this country, and if I get to be sent out because of anything that I said for any shirt that I’m wearing for saying free Palestine, then you know, honestly I don’t need this country. You know, why are we trying to? be such good quote unquote citizens in order for what you know the the U.S. is showing its colors and it always has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to take a break and when we come back, focus a little bit on the representation that you have shared with the world. We’re gonna get a short, little break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we were talking about dignified representation and the fact that each of you saw a moment to be able to share your story. And Carla, when I introduced you, I mentioned again that your book was called the undocumented Americans. And I love the juxtaposition of those words, especially because I feel like in this national narrative in the political discourse, most people will say on one particular side of the aisle that those two words don’t necessarily go together. So I’m curious for you about the choice to title your book. undocumented Americans, where they can coexist as a hyphenation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, people can’t really take the term, the hemispheric term America. The publishers recommended undocumented America, which felt to me like very national geographic. And I was like, no. And then I wanted to be a little bit of a b-tch. And I want it to… I want it to be an homage to Henry James. So I want to call it The Undocumented Americans. And yeah, I mean, I don’t really feel too intimately with the name, but I do know that my Connecticut State Senator, Chris Murphy, got in trouble for saying something very nice, but very mild, you know? He was just something like, I feel sorry for our neighbors. are the undocumented Americans. And I think maybe he thought that that was the term we’re now using. But he got into so much trouble for it. He got so much hate. I know that because I have a Google alert on the undocumented American. I would get like, like right wing blogs being like, you know, all sorts of things. Poor Chris Murphy. So I think my book did have an impact in that they got Chris Murphy. into a lot of trouble for embracing the term. So people seem to have an issue with it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. I talk about the story of how, you know, I’m always having to say I’m a U S citizen when I’m back home, because it’s a border point, it’s an entry point. And we were always told to say U S citizens, not American citizen, because of this notion of you can be for many part of the Americas. What does that mean? So I think even just that specification of U S citizen was just ingrained in me at such an early age. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to focus on language because there is that notion of American and citizen. And so I want to start with you Javier about if either of those words, American or citizen resonate more with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">None – I’ve never considered myself either. You know, I’ve been, especially since the second administration Trump presidency began, I’ve really been looking at my own trajectory into obtaining papeles. You know, I finally get a green card, When? During the first Trump administration, I’ve had a green card for six years now. And I haven’t applied to become a citizen. And so for me it’s like now that I don’t have to look over my shoulder as much, or so I thought, now we’re learning in this presidency that, oh, a green card is also not as safe as you once thought. And now even facing this very real and almost urgent question for myself because I have to either apply to renew my green card or apply for citizenship next year. And so I’m like, why would I want to become? And what does that mean? What am I gaining? I am gaining a vote. You know, I’ve never voted in my life. Not in El Salvador, I’m not here. But is that, is it political citizenship? What am I gaining socially? I don’t think I will be gaining anything else that I don’t already have. So what is the difference? So I don’t know. I am with you. I’m still actively thinking about it every single day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Karla, are you in a similar situation where you think about it every day, about whether you choose one of those words over another, American or citizen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, my life is not filled with a lot of choices and that’s also not a choice I’m given. So, um, I’m fine with whatever people want to call me so long as it’s not a slur. I guess I do identify as an immigrant. I am naturalized as a citizen, but my brain developed under a certain set of circumstances, and I have a certain set of skills, like I said. So you don’t stop being an immigrant at any point in the legalization process. There is a process of like acculturation. There’s a process with assimilation or not. There’s like so many like things, there’s like code switching. There’s, there’s a certain set of experiences, I think that do unite immigrants but I don’t think that, I don’t think you really stop being an immigrant because it is sort of about being someone who doesn’t have a place that necessarily wants to claim them. And they are kind of looking out for themselves and looking for a place of safety and freedom and dignity. And then you’re willing to move for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I do wanna focus and pivot us a little bit to the future. And I wanna ask in this moment, what do you think we’ve started to understand if anything at all or what is exposed now about the idea of American citizenship?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the empire is crumbling. We can see it. I think that settler colonial colony that the United States is showing its framework. And so for me, you know, the answer, because I do think that artists and writers should look at what is wrong with the world, but also dream of something to provide or gift for the future. For me, I think the answer is easy. The answer was here before white people showed up.It took me 30 plus years for me to even begin to identify as Native, as Indigenous, which I also am. And I think a lot of us in the Latina community are still carrying that shame of being part Black, part Indigenous, and we want to be proud of the small percentage of Spanish or European blood that we have. But that’s not the answer. That is the poison that we within us and we do. And so what is left for the future? For me, the future is looking back and imagining a Turtle Island or the Americas before any white man came here. You know, that is where the answers lie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Karla, are you optimistic about what we can anticipate? Not necessarily in this current administration, but for the years to come, the next 20, 30 years. Will the conversation surrounding citizenship and people who are undocumented, do you think it’ll change or will be kind of what we’ve experienced for generations?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I’m optimistic every day because that’s what keeps me going and that’s why keeps me alive and committing to the human social experiment. But I definitely don’t believe in a utopia ever materializing. I think human beings are bad and selfish and desirous of power in ways that cannot really be trusted. This is something that happened slowly and it happened over time. and it involved the participation and non-participation of a lot of people. And so I would say we need to have people who believe in democracy, even though it might be an illusion and it might be a myth and it may be a pyramid scheme. Like so many things are, like love or religion, like faith, these are things that become real because you all participate in a collective delusion about it. And so I think that people who care to participate in the delusion of democracy, when you could participate in the delusion of many other things, they should run for office. They should become judges. They should become lawyers. They should become doctors who work at free clinics. How do you use yourself and your safety if you are a person who is safe to contribute to the safety of people who have literally no rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna thank both of you for sharing a lot of yourselves, a lot of your experiences and providing your insight on this very difficult topic, especially because of what’s happening politically in the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you wanna follow them and get any of their works, all you have to do is go to our show notes. We will show you how to follow them on social, buy their books, and support everything that they’ve got going on. So please do that. And also, if you want to send us any information about your own story or anything you wanna see represented on hyphenation, just email us at hyp at kqed.org. Thank you all for listening. Hasta luego. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Jim Benett and Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Latino cultures, it’s often expected that we someday become caregivers for our parents or other family members. Anyone who has taken on this role can tell you that it’s hard and demands some big sacrifices. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gets together with poet Yosimar Reyes and professor Anita Tijerina Revilla to talk about the struggle of sacrificing to be a caregiver while trying not to lose yourself in the needs of others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1200585640&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/A4EBUctBRb8\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yosimar Reyes (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/yosirey/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">/ \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://yosimarreyes.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">poetry\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Anita Tijerina Revilla (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mujer_fiera/\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s say in the next couple of minutes you were to get a phone call from, I don’t know, your sister, and she says something’s wrong with mom. They don’t quite know what it is, but just to be safe, they’re gonna take her to the emergency room.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, maybe you’re like me and you live thousands of miles away from your immediate family. You’ve got a new job, you’ve got a few friends, maybe somebody special that’s keeping you rooted in this new city. But most of all, you probably have a routine. The thing you’ve worked really hard to craft and maintain so you can live life the way that you want, and on the terms that you’ve chosen, because that is one of the advantages of being grown and an adult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But your sister calls you back, and the doctor is saying a few things that you don’t understand, some things that you do, but you don’t want to hear it, because it starts to become very real. This is happening and I’m not ready, but it’s mom, so routine, ni que nada– I would drop everything to help her, right? Even move back home?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorge Olivares, and I’m the son of aging parents so at some point, I’m gonna be confronted with this very real situation, and I think I know what I would do. But will I actually go through with it when push comes to shove?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today I want to ask, what are we willing to sacrifice right now in order to care for a loved one? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m really happy to have this conversation today with two folks who have been a bit vocal about this very personal topic. The first is poet and writer, Yosimar Reyes, who has spoken openly not only about migration, queerness, but also about being a caretaker for his grandmother. So Josimar, thank you so much for joining us today. And I wanna share a photo that Yosimar gave us as a team to be able to share with our audience. Yosimar, who is this wonderful woman in this photo, and did you have a nickname for her? Did she have a name for you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everybody, this is my Abuelita, Madonia Galeana Dionisio. Her nickname for me was Gordo, I’ve always been known as Gordo. And for her, we just call her Abuelita or Mama Doña would be the name that we everybody referenced her as.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love and slightly hate that I feel like growing up, everybody’s nickname for children is having to do with weight. Like either you’re Flaquito, you’re Morenito, you’re Pretito. I mean, obviously that’s more skin tone, but \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, usually your parents are your first bully, so you get conditioned into facing the world through them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just have a little bit of a thicker skin because of it. But thank you so much for joining us, Yosimar, for this conversation. And also joining us is Profe Anita Tijerina Revilla, who is department chair for the Chicanx and Latinx Studies Department at Cal State LA, who’s also talked about queer Latinidad and about her own journey as a caretaker for her niece and nephew and also for her sister. So Profe, thank you so much for joining us. And we also have a photo that we’d like to share. And who are these? Cute little critters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saludos, thank you for having me. These are my niece and nephew, also my son and daughter. I adopted them a few years ago. This is Ray on the right and Michael right next to me and myself, Ray and Michael, my niece and nephew, also my daughter and son.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they call me honey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Honey! Ooh, has that has, has it always been honey or has there been a journey to arrive to honey? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honey works really well for the kids Because. I am their tía but I’m more than their tia and their mother is very much a part of their lives so we didn’t, I didn’t want them to call me mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honey is so sweet. And there’s such a term of it’s such a term endearment regardless, like anybody who can call you honey, there’s already an element of love that you can’t hide from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m excited for us to have this conversation because it is rooted in family. And a lot of what’s happening for me and my family is we’re approaching that point where we’re caretaking and caregiving, which I’m gonna use interchangeably, but this notion of being at home to care for a loved one, it’s kind of coming close. So I’m approaching that process of when I’m going to need to go home to be a caretaker for one of my parents. And I want to start with you, Yosimar, if you don’t mind, because maybe a few days ago, you did post something on your Instagram that was about this caretaking journey for you. So I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about the decision to first even become a caretaker for your grandmother. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so I’m originally from the state of Guerrero, Mexico. I migrated to the United States when I was three years old, and it was my grandma who actually carried me across the journey to bring me to this country. And when we landed here, like so many young people, I was 3, so my mom wanted me to go live with her, but my grandma was part of those formative years, and so I thought my grandma my mom, so I had this affinity towards her, and I always wanted to be with her. Um, and so my relationship with her has always been me and my grandparents. I’m the one that grew up with my grandparents, um, but, uh, once I graduated college, I went to live in Los Angeles and I was there for about five years. And then COVID happened. And I think one of the interesting things I am based out of San Jose, California, um during that time, five zip codes were disproportionately impacted by positive COVID cases. My grandma was part of one of those zip codes. And so I think out of that, I saw her getting older. I saw just, you know, her just aging. And so, I decided to make the choice of like, I need to leave to go back home and help her. And yeah, I think that’s when I– it wasn’t an active choice, but more like something natural that was just happening and then I decided to move back home and that’s how I ended up taking on the role. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you wouldn’t say it was necessarily because there was this expectation that Yosimar at some point is going to move back home, take care of Abuelita, that it felt more of an in the moment decision because of the global pandemic that was happening that was forcing us to rethink how we were approaching things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it was just a natural course. I think for me, one of the things that happened between the relationship with me and my grandparents is that you just know what’s instinctively, you just know, like this is what I need to do or like that. And it didn’t necessarily feel like a burden or it didn’ feel like I was making a sacrifice or making a choice. I was like, this is my calling and this is the next step that I need do. But back then, I didn’t have language to call it what it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that you’re saying a calling because I want to ask you, Profe Anita, if you think that for you being a caretaker for your niece and nephew was a calling, or if it was something else that you had to in the moment figure out how to respond to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s funny, I do not think it was a calling, I think it was codependence. You know, I’ll tell you a little bit about me and my life. I grew up with a single parent. She was widowed at the age of 30. She had three kids and she always put herself last, right? And so codependence literally means that you take care of everybody at your own expense. And so for me, what happened is my sister had grown up, this is my little sister and I have an older brother too, but she had grown with depression her whole life. We knew it since she was little. And later on in life, she was clinically diagnosed as bipolar, having bipolar experience and schizoaffective disorder. And it wasn’t until maybe she turned 30 that she started to show or exhibit symptoms of schizophrenia and what other people call madness right? Yeah, she started to have delusions and she started having like a deep paranoia. And so it was also connected to drug addiction and the drug addiction was connected to her depression. And so all of this is like, again, as I’ve learned little by little, I’ve come to understand my sister’s experience more. But back then, all I knew is that my sister was sick and something was happening that we didn’t understand. She had two small children. They were three and four years old. And the first time she got hospitalized, she was arrested and brutalized by police merely for exhibiting this anger and this madness. And so she was in the hospital right after she was in jail, I had to fight to get her out. And when she got out, she came directly to live with me. It was my, maybe, second year as an assistant professor in Las Vegas. I had just started my career and I had worked my whole life not to be a parent, especially not a teen mom or a single parent. Those were things that were stigmatized with me growing up. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, of course, I honor single mothers and single parents just like my mother, but that’s not what I wanted to be. I wanted it to have a career. And the only reason I even went to college and wanted a career was to take care of my impoverished family because I had come to believe through my mother that having that education would allow me to help pull them out of their poverty. And so little by little, those are the messages that I got. You have to take care of your family, and you have to sacrifice your life to take care of the people in your family. And I accepted it with lots of love, but I don’t think there was really choice involved, right? It was a limited choice and it wasn’t until much later that I actually said yeah, I did make a choice and I’m grateful that I had that opportunity and it’s one of the most powerful experiences I’ve ever had to be able to parent children who are now 20 and 21 years old. They’re adults and so I feel honored to have been their safety and the person who took care of them. But back then, I was mourning and grieving my life, the life that I had as a single queer person starting a job in Las Vegas as a women’s studies professor. It was one of the hardest things that I’ve ever had to do is to parent when I didn’t plan on doing it, especially for children that young. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I definitely understand the point that you’re, you’re making. You did say about, uh, you felt like you sacrificed your life and I’m curious, Yosimar, you did say that, you’ve reflected and you said that it was a calling to be able to help your grandmother, but did you think that there was a moment where you were sacrificing your life? And unable to do things that you had already put in your head that you wanted to accomplish as an individual.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think similar to Anita, I think one of the things that happened within my life is we grew up poor. I think, I used to say the term working class, but no. I think we need to name it– poverty. The thing with growing up poor is that it’s silent violence because you’re not aware of what you need. You’re not aware and I think poverty adds a different level to these circumstances in which I felt guilty. Here I am living in Los Angeles in a two bedroom apartment in Boyle Heights, having my fun after college years. I have a roommate, throwing parties. I have my own room, I have my own washer and dryer. I have all this stability. And then I would travel back home where my grandma stayed there sleeping on the living room couch. She’s still recycling bottles and cans. My brother’s sleeping on the floor. I have another cousin in the living room. And I just remember going to visit her and how much I hated the poverty in which she was living. But she loved it. This is all she known. This is a life she known, and I just feel a certain guilt. How is it that I’m traveling the country, that I am speaking at these prestigious universities, and my grandma is still living in the same apartment than since we arrived in this country? Yeah, of course there were moments where I didn’t want this responsibility. I wanna be myself. And then I think all the other layers that were undocumented. So it’s like this added layer of poverty, undocumented, all this stuff. And then that was the big tug of war of realizing like, damn, like, I’d see other people excelling in their careers. I can’t do that. I can move to New York and focus on my writing and live this writer dream because I have these people depending on me. But I think I would fight it a lot. I would have these moments of tension in which I was like, ah, why does it have to be me? Like, I don’t wanna do this. But then there was these beautiful, beautiful moments that I was, maybe because I’m a poet, I was ah this is sacred and something really beautiful and something that I don’t think not a lot of people get to experience and then when I had those moments it just made sense \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, Profe Anita, like, about this tug of war, was there a moment because you did mention this, it was a huge sacrifice, this is not what you wanted but your life was taken in a direction that you had not anticipated, so was there time where there was a beautiful moment, or what was one of the earliest signs of that this could be an opportunity for you to feel grateful for being in this position as caretaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s a fluid experience. It’s not a moment. It’s like you wake up in the morning, you think these babies are beautiful. They’re making you laugh. You’re hugging them and loving them. and then all of a sudden one of them has a meltdown and you have to go to work and your friends are going out and you’re not going out or you used to stay up till two or three in the morning and you have to go sleep. You’re falling asleep at 10 o’clock and can’t do your work but then you see them sleeping and they look beautiful. So there are many moments where you wonder like, wow, how did this become my experience? And I feel bad for the kids because they’ve heard me multiple times say, like, I didn’t plan to have children. My intention was to be child-free, not childless, child-free. And so I made the decision because I had already been parenting people. I was the one that was going to go to college and the one was going to take care of all these things because I was responsible. And so the fact was I had already been parenting. And so when I rece ived the children, I did it because I love them so much that I didn’t want them to be in danger. And I have to honor my sister in her choice because someone who is struggling with mental illness or drug addiction, they don’t always. They’re not always willing to release their children and let them be taken care of by someone else. But my sister trusted me. She had a deep trust and a deep love for me. And so she said, I’m going to need you to take care of the kids because I can’t do it. I can take care of myself, and I can take care of them, and they will be safer with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that. We’re actually going to take a quick break and be back with more Hyphenación.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yosimar, I want to ask you something that Profe Anita mentioned, which I feel like I’m going to struggle with is the ability to just be honest with whoever you’re caring for and mention the moments of frustration, mention the moments of joy. And just being transparent about how you’re feeling every step of the way. Was it easy for you to be open and transparent with your grandma about just anything that you were experiencing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think one of the funny things about my grandma is that she was witty. My grandma was 89, 90, but that homegirl was…sharp!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, good for her! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was hilarious because we would go out to doctor’s appointments and also my I wasn’t babying her like she’s an adult she’s a grown woman so I wouldn’t necessarily baby her so if we’re arguing at a doctor’s office I’m like I’m sure people think this is elder abuse but this is how we get along like I could talk to her you know people review their grandma’s in a certain way but I grew up with her so she’s like my my friend so um but there was this moment where we would get into it because we’re so caught up and we were like, just fight, right? And she would get me frustrated because es bien terca. She wouldn’t do things. I would argue about her medications. One of the things about my grandma is that she didn’t trust doctors. So she was very much about, I’m gonna do it my way. And so we would tug a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">¡Me están mintiendo! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Como, ese doctor no más te quiere enfermo para sacarte dinero. I’m like, girl, you’re on medi-cal. You’re not paying them. So, chill out. But then it was funny because obviously, my grandma, she was an emotional manipulator. So she would get mad at me and then shut down. I’ll come home and all the lights are off. And I’m, like, okay, this girl is going through it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or she would lock herself or she would go pretend that she’s sleeping in the garage. I’m like, girl, why do you have to sleep in the car? Do you have a bed? Like all these emotional manipulations, you know, all of that. But then I have to be like the conscientious one and I’m like, okay, she’s older. Let me give it. And then I’ll be like, I will eat them. I just want to apologize to you. I just wanna tell you that you’re not a burden to me. You’re the biggest gift I ever had. And I’m so sorry if I get frustrated with you, but sometimes this is very difficult because I’m doing so much and I just want to let you know that it’s not you. I love you and I care for you. And then she would be like, “I know.” And then we would hug it out. And we would have these episodes. We would have this telenovela episodes. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then I started to teach my grandma how to use her words instead of these things. Like, hey, if you need space, you can just tell me, hey, right now I’m feeling a little sad. And it’s interesting because she started learning words like siento depresión, o me siento triste. Something that it’s not very common. I don’t think it’s very common in Latino, monolingual, Spanish. Deciré, tengo una tristeza. And then I would like, okay, let’s process it. What do we need to do? Or like, oh, let me, let us go walk or let’s, and sometimes it was hard because she, I understood she was, my grandma was so isolated.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of the things that people don’t realize is that my grandma is very independent. So she’s used to making movidas on her own. And now because she’s older, she can’t necessarily go out to the store by herself. there’s certain things that she can’t do. So her life became reduced into somebody watching her. And I think one of the biggest things that I learned was the fact that this country doesn’t facilitate for you to think outside of your immediate needs. So for someone to come and take time to take her to a restaurant or take time to take her to the park, it was a lot. And so I think for her also realizing that she needed someone was a very hard, and that’s where the depression came.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Prof. Anita, I want to ask because… Part of the, the caretaking journey sometimes is that there’s a difference of generations and we speak different languages. So I’m wondering if, if you had to, to deal with this interesting perspective of you were having to communicate with youngins who might not. Understand where you’re coming from because the lived experience is so different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a great question. I think as a first-gen college-educated person, I was already dealing with that. All of this, when I talk about the kids, I can’t talk about it without talking about my mom, too. So from the very beginning, when I first read Gloria Anzaldua, Borderlands, La Frontera, I called my mom up. I’m like, mom, why didn’t you teach me more Spanish? I used to speak Spanish before I started school. Why didn’t you continue? And she’s like mija they used to punish us, you know hit us with rulers. The white nuns would punish us for speaking in Spanish so I taught you English so that they wouldn’t do that to you. And so I did the work of teaching my mom what Chicana meant, what feminist meant. I taught her about colorism because my family is the darker one. My father was very dark skinned, Indigenous. So little by little, I was trying to teach my mom and also reclaim our cultural identity and our pride and remove all of the internalized racism that we had grown up with, similar to the sexism, et cetera. So when the kids came into my life, I did the same thing with them. Like I said, they were three and four years old. And I remember distinctly, Michael, either was three or four. And he asked me like, “Honey, why do you have a girlfriend?” I had a girlfriend at the time. It was my first partner after I became a parent. And I said oh, that’s because um I love her and she’s I’m in a relationship with her she’s my girlfriend and I said and he said “But why don’t you have a boyfriend” I said well I actually and at the time identified as bisexual, now I identify as queer and fluid but I said I’m bisexual so that means I can love boys or girls and it doesn’t matter to me you know if they’re a boy or girl I can still love them. And he said, “You know what honey, I think I’m bisexual too.” four years old. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, just so you know, whoever you love, whoever, you want to be a boyfriend or girlfriend that’s always going to be accepted in our home.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will say, uh, one of the things that’s possible when you’re physically with someone is getting to talk at all hours of the day, you know, during dinner, whenever the moment feels right and just learning about the person you’re with. And so I want to ask you, starting with you, What is something that you learned from your grandmother that you don’t think you would have ever had the chance to do unless you had all of that access to her?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I, my grandma, you know, passed away in November, and I think not just because she passed away, I think I always knew my grandma as like this magical person. I’m like, Oh, I’d say it takes a really powerful person to raise a little queer child and to not murder their spirit. And my grandma never, my Grandma was an alcahueta. If I wanted something, she would make it work. And I think my grandma maybe was that because she was trying to make up for the mother that she couldn’t be to her daughters. And that’s when I got a complex idea of my grandma. My grandma was in survival mode. And so her way of parenting her daughters was probably not the kindness or not the most. And so now that she’s older, she’s confronting that because everything comes back. And so maybe the relationship with her daughters is not that close or it’s turbulent because they haven’t spoken about this and there hasn’t been a sorry. And so I think there was this constant thing.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for me, I can’t speak to that because my grandmother was never that to me. And so I had the patience that obviously my mom or my aunts necessarily didn’t have with her, but I did. And so, I think what I learned was that, to view my grandmother’s life with compassion and now that she’s older, to confront her or to talk to her and see, listen, maybe it’s time you forgive yourself for what you didn’t do and think about the things that you did do. And so I think my-the most biggest thing of spending time with someone that’s elderly and someone that confronting their mortality is making sure that they make amends with the guilt or the shame that they carry. And so I’m happy to say that I was helping my grandma gravitate toward that and that I able to honor, ‘You were on survival mode, it’s not your fault. And look, look how far you made it. Look how you shifted. And yes you fucked up. There’s moments that you fuck up as a human life is not that. But I want you to tell you that at the end of the day, the impact in your legacy, the way people speak about your character, the way people thank you for the things that you’ve done for them, it’s very dynamic. So you also need to be kind to yourself.’ And so I think that was the biggest thing to be able to look at my grandma in the complexities of the things where she did mess up but also the compassion of saying you did the best that you could with what you had. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that. Profe Anita, I want to ask you sort of the inverse of that, especially because we started this conversation with you talking about the very real sensation of this is not how you thought your life was going to go. So what is something you learned about yourself now that you are Honey and, uh, you’ve been doing this for almost 20 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the thing that I learned about myself was that I had to figure out a way to take care of myself and my body, mind and spirit even while I was taking care of everyone else. Like, I even before I got the kids, I already was putting other people’s needs before my own. I was a people pleaser, always wanted everybody to love me and to accept me, especially because I grew up thinking I was unlovable. I, you know, grew up different. I have a different hand and a lot of people bullied me for my hand and I thought I would grow up to not have love. And so I think with the kids, I realized like I have to figure out what I need to heal myself because I want to be a parent that parents from a space of healing, that parents from a place of liberation versus fear. I was living my life through my mom’s trauma, and so I had to figure out how to heal, release her trauma and heal my own trauma. And I don’t think I would have gotten as far as I have without the kids. They hold me accountable. They use my words against me. They throw my feminism in my face, and they say they’re not as easily… convinced when I tell them something is good or bad. They challenged me and I like my mom taught me I taught them you have a voice\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah, you have a voice. Thats so powerful. I want to thank each of your for opening up and being as vulnerable as you have been on this very difficult topic. But I think it’s helping me, its helping other folks that are on the precipice of this journey for themselves. So I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to go in depth for what this experience has been like for you. So I want to thank you each for that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want it to our listeners that if you want to follow our guests, I will put all of their socials, where you can find them online, all of the written works, that will all be in the show notes. And if you wanna communicate with us as a Hyphenation show… You can send us an email at HYP at KQED.org so we can know what you want to talk about on our program. But again, just want to say thanks to our guests and thanks to you for being here for this chat. Until next time. Hasta Lleugo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Jim Bennett and Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "In Latino cultures, it’s often expected that we someday become caregivers for our parents or other family members. Anyone who has taken on this role can tell you that it's hard and demands some big sacrifices. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gets together with Poet Yosimar Reyes and Professor Anita Tijerina Revilla to talk about the struggle of sacrificing to be a caregiver while trying not to lose yourself in the needs of others.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Latino cultures, it’s often expected that we someday become caregivers for our parents or other family members. Anyone who has taken on this role can tell you that it’s hard and demands some big sacrifices. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gets together with poet Yosimar Reyes and professor Anita Tijerina Revilla to talk about the struggle of sacrificing to be a caregiver while trying not to lose yourself in the needs of others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1200585640&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/A4EBUctBRb8'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/A4EBUctBRb8'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yosimar Reyes (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/yosirey/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">/ \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://yosimarreyes.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">poetry\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Anita Tijerina Revilla (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mujer_fiera/\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s say in the next couple of minutes you were to get a phone call from, I don’t know, your sister, and she says something’s wrong with mom. They don’t quite know what it is, but just to be safe, they’re gonna take her to the emergency room.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, maybe you’re like me and you live thousands of miles away from your immediate family. You’ve got a new job, you’ve got a few friends, maybe somebody special that’s keeping you rooted in this new city. But most of all, you probably have a routine. The thing you’ve worked really hard to craft and maintain so you can live life the way that you want, and on the terms that you’ve chosen, because that is one of the advantages of being grown and an adult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But your sister calls you back, and the doctor is saying a few things that you don’t understand, some things that you do, but you don’t want to hear it, because it starts to become very real. This is happening and I’m not ready, but it’s mom, so routine, ni que nada– I would drop everything to help her, right? Even move back home?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorge Olivares, and I’m the son of aging parents so at some point, I’m gonna be confronted with this very real situation, and I think I know what I would do. But will I actually go through with it when push comes to shove?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today I want to ask, what are we willing to sacrifice right now in order to care for a loved one? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m really happy to have this conversation today with two folks who have been a bit vocal about this very personal topic. The first is poet and writer, Yosimar Reyes, who has spoken openly not only about migration, queerness, but also about being a caretaker for his grandmother. So Josimar, thank you so much for joining us today. And I wanna share a photo that Yosimar gave us as a team to be able to share with our audience. Yosimar, who is this wonderful woman in this photo, and did you have a nickname for her? Did she have a name for you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everybody, this is my Abuelita, Madonia Galeana Dionisio. Her nickname for me was Gordo, I’ve always been known as Gordo. And for her, we just call her Abuelita or Mama Doña would be the name that we everybody referenced her as.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love and slightly hate that I feel like growing up, everybody’s nickname for children is having to do with weight. Like either you’re Flaquito, you’re Morenito, you’re Pretito. I mean, obviously that’s more skin tone, but \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, usually your parents are your first bully, so you get conditioned into facing the world through them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just have a little bit of a thicker skin because of it. But thank you so much for joining us, Yosimar, for this conversation. And also joining us is Profe Anita Tijerina Revilla, who is department chair for the Chicanx and Latinx Studies Department at Cal State LA, who’s also talked about queer Latinidad and about her own journey as a caretaker for her niece and nephew and also for her sister. So Profe, thank you so much for joining us. And we also have a photo that we’d like to share. And who are these? Cute little critters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saludos, thank you for having me. These are my niece and nephew, also my son and daughter. I adopted them a few years ago. This is Ray on the right and Michael right next to me and myself, Ray and Michael, my niece and nephew, also my daughter and son.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they call me honey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Honey! Ooh, has that has, has it always been honey or has there been a journey to arrive to honey? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honey works really well for the kids Because. I am their tía but I’m more than their tia and their mother is very much a part of their lives so we didn’t, I didn’t want them to call me mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honey is so sweet. And there’s such a term of it’s such a term endearment regardless, like anybody who can call you honey, there’s already an element of love that you can’t hide from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m excited for us to have this conversation because it is rooted in family. And a lot of what’s happening for me and my family is we’re approaching that point where we’re caretaking and caregiving, which I’m gonna use interchangeably, but this notion of being at home to care for a loved one, it’s kind of coming close. So I’m approaching that process of when I’m going to need to go home to be a caretaker for one of my parents. And I want to start with you, Yosimar, if you don’t mind, because maybe a few days ago, you did post something on your Instagram that was about this caretaking journey for you. So I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about the decision to first even become a caretaker for your grandmother. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so I’m originally from the state of Guerrero, Mexico. I migrated to the United States when I was three years old, and it was my grandma who actually carried me across the journey to bring me to this country. And when we landed here, like so many young people, I was 3, so my mom wanted me to go live with her, but my grandma was part of those formative years, and so I thought my grandma my mom, so I had this affinity towards her, and I always wanted to be with her. Um, and so my relationship with her has always been me and my grandparents. I’m the one that grew up with my grandparents, um, but, uh, once I graduated college, I went to live in Los Angeles and I was there for about five years. And then COVID happened. And I think one of the interesting things I am based out of San Jose, California, um during that time, five zip codes were disproportionately impacted by positive COVID cases. My grandma was part of one of those zip codes. And so I think out of that, I saw her getting older. I saw just, you know, her just aging. And so, I decided to make the choice of like, I need to leave to go back home and help her. And yeah, I think that’s when I– it wasn’t an active choice, but more like something natural that was just happening and then I decided to move back home and that’s how I ended up taking on the role. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you wouldn’t say it was necessarily because there was this expectation that Yosimar at some point is going to move back home, take care of Abuelita, that it felt more of an in the moment decision because of the global pandemic that was happening that was forcing us to rethink how we were approaching things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it was just a natural course. I think for me, one of the things that happened between the relationship with me and my grandparents is that you just know what’s instinctively, you just know, like this is what I need to do or like that. And it didn’t necessarily feel like a burden or it didn’ feel like I was making a sacrifice or making a choice. I was like, this is my calling and this is the next step that I need do. But back then, I didn’t have language to call it what it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that you’re saying a calling because I want to ask you, Profe Anita, if you think that for you being a caretaker for your niece and nephew was a calling, or if it was something else that you had to in the moment figure out how to respond to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s funny, I do not think it was a calling, I think it was codependence. You know, I’ll tell you a little bit about me and my life. I grew up with a single parent. She was widowed at the age of 30. She had three kids and she always put herself last, right? And so codependence literally means that you take care of everybody at your own expense. And so for me, what happened is my sister had grown up, this is my little sister and I have an older brother too, but she had grown with depression her whole life. We knew it since she was little. And later on in life, she was clinically diagnosed as bipolar, having bipolar experience and schizoaffective disorder. And it wasn’t until maybe she turned 30 that she started to show or exhibit symptoms of schizophrenia and what other people call madness right? Yeah, she started to have delusions and she started having like a deep paranoia. And so it was also connected to drug addiction and the drug addiction was connected to her depression. And so all of this is like, again, as I’ve learned little by little, I’ve come to understand my sister’s experience more. But back then, all I knew is that my sister was sick and something was happening that we didn’t understand. She had two small children. They were three and four years old. And the first time she got hospitalized, she was arrested and brutalized by police merely for exhibiting this anger and this madness. And so she was in the hospital right after she was in jail, I had to fight to get her out. And when she got out, she came directly to live with me. It was my, maybe, second year as an assistant professor in Las Vegas. I had just started my career and I had worked my whole life not to be a parent, especially not a teen mom or a single parent. Those were things that were stigmatized with me growing up. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, of course, I honor single mothers and single parents just like my mother, but that’s not what I wanted to be. I wanted it to have a career. And the only reason I even went to college and wanted a career was to take care of my impoverished family because I had come to believe through my mother that having that education would allow me to help pull them out of their poverty. And so little by little, those are the messages that I got. You have to take care of your family, and you have to sacrifice your life to take care of the people in your family. And I accepted it with lots of love, but I don’t think there was really choice involved, right? It was a limited choice and it wasn’t until much later that I actually said yeah, I did make a choice and I’m grateful that I had that opportunity and it’s one of the most powerful experiences I’ve ever had to be able to parent children who are now 20 and 21 years old. They’re adults and so I feel honored to have been their safety and the person who took care of them. But back then, I was mourning and grieving my life, the life that I had as a single queer person starting a job in Las Vegas as a women’s studies professor. It was one of the hardest things that I’ve ever had to do is to parent when I didn’t plan on doing it, especially for children that young. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I definitely understand the point that you’re, you’re making. You did say about, uh, you felt like you sacrificed your life and I’m curious, Yosimar, you did say that, you’ve reflected and you said that it was a calling to be able to help your grandmother, but did you think that there was a moment where you were sacrificing your life? And unable to do things that you had already put in your head that you wanted to accomplish as an individual.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think similar to Anita, I think one of the things that happened within my life is we grew up poor. I think, I used to say the term working class, but no. I think we need to name it– poverty. The thing with growing up poor is that it’s silent violence because you’re not aware of what you need. You’re not aware and I think poverty adds a different level to these circumstances in which I felt guilty. Here I am living in Los Angeles in a two bedroom apartment in Boyle Heights, having my fun after college years. I have a roommate, throwing parties. I have my own room, I have my own washer and dryer. I have all this stability. And then I would travel back home where my grandma stayed there sleeping on the living room couch. She’s still recycling bottles and cans. My brother’s sleeping on the floor. I have another cousin in the living room. And I just remember going to visit her and how much I hated the poverty in which she was living. But she loved it. This is all she known. This is a life she known, and I just feel a certain guilt. How is it that I’m traveling the country, that I am speaking at these prestigious universities, and my grandma is still living in the same apartment than since we arrived in this country? Yeah, of course there were moments where I didn’t want this responsibility. I wanna be myself. And then I think all the other layers that were undocumented. So it’s like this added layer of poverty, undocumented, all this stuff. And then that was the big tug of war of realizing like, damn, like, I’d see other people excelling in their careers. I can’t do that. I can move to New York and focus on my writing and live this writer dream because I have these people depending on me. But I think I would fight it a lot. I would have these moments of tension in which I was like, ah, why does it have to be me? Like, I don’t wanna do this. But then there was these beautiful, beautiful moments that I was, maybe because I’m a poet, I was ah this is sacred and something really beautiful and something that I don’t think not a lot of people get to experience and then when I had those moments it just made sense \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, Profe Anita, like, about this tug of war, was there a moment because you did mention this, it was a huge sacrifice, this is not what you wanted but your life was taken in a direction that you had not anticipated, so was there time where there was a beautiful moment, or what was one of the earliest signs of that this could be an opportunity for you to feel grateful for being in this position as caretaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s a fluid experience. It’s not a moment. It’s like you wake up in the morning, you think these babies are beautiful. They’re making you laugh. You’re hugging them and loving them. and then all of a sudden one of them has a meltdown and you have to go to work and your friends are going out and you’re not going out or you used to stay up till two or three in the morning and you have to go sleep. You’re falling asleep at 10 o’clock and can’t do your work but then you see them sleeping and they look beautiful. So there are many moments where you wonder like, wow, how did this become my experience? And I feel bad for the kids because they’ve heard me multiple times say, like, I didn’t plan to have children. My intention was to be child-free, not childless, child-free. And so I made the decision because I had already been parenting people. I was the one that was going to go to college and the one was going to take care of all these things because I was responsible. And so the fact was I had already been parenting. And so when I rece ived the children, I did it because I love them so much that I didn’t want them to be in danger. And I have to honor my sister in her choice because someone who is struggling with mental illness or drug addiction, they don’t always. They’re not always willing to release their children and let them be taken care of by someone else. But my sister trusted me. She had a deep trust and a deep love for me. And so she said, I’m going to need you to take care of the kids because I can’t do it. I can take care of myself, and I can take care of them, and they will be safer with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that. We’re actually going to take a quick break and be back with more Hyphenación.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yosimar, I want to ask you something that Profe Anita mentioned, which I feel like I’m going to struggle with is the ability to just be honest with whoever you’re caring for and mention the moments of frustration, mention the moments of joy. And just being transparent about how you’re feeling every step of the way. Was it easy for you to be open and transparent with your grandma about just anything that you were experiencing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think one of the funny things about my grandma is that she was witty. My grandma was 89, 90, but that homegirl was…sharp!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, good for her! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was hilarious because we would go out to doctor’s appointments and also my I wasn’t babying her like she’s an adult she’s a grown woman so I wouldn’t necessarily baby her so if we’re arguing at a doctor’s office I’m like I’m sure people think this is elder abuse but this is how we get along like I could talk to her you know people review their grandma’s in a certain way but I grew up with her so she’s like my my friend so um but there was this moment where we would get into it because we’re so caught up and we were like, just fight, right? And she would get me frustrated because es bien terca. She wouldn’t do things. I would argue about her medications. One of the things about my grandma is that she didn’t trust doctors. So she was very much about, I’m gonna do it my way. And so we would tug a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">¡Me están mintiendo! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Como, ese doctor no más te quiere enfermo para sacarte dinero. I’m like, girl, you’re on medi-cal. You’re not paying them. So, chill out. But then it was funny because obviously, my grandma, she was an emotional manipulator. So she would get mad at me and then shut down. I’ll come home and all the lights are off. And I’m, like, okay, this girl is going through it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or she would lock herself or she would go pretend that she’s sleeping in the garage. I’m like, girl, why do you have to sleep in the car? Do you have a bed? Like all these emotional manipulations, you know, all of that. But then I have to be like the conscientious one and I’m like, okay, she’s older. Let me give it. And then I’ll be like, I will eat them. I just want to apologize to you. I just wanna tell you that you’re not a burden to me. You’re the biggest gift I ever had. And I’m so sorry if I get frustrated with you, but sometimes this is very difficult because I’m doing so much and I just want to let you know that it’s not you. I love you and I care for you. And then she would be like, “I know.” And then we would hug it out. And we would have these episodes. We would have this telenovela episodes. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then I started to teach my grandma how to use her words instead of these things. Like, hey, if you need space, you can just tell me, hey, right now I’m feeling a little sad. And it’s interesting because she started learning words like siento depresión, o me siento triste. Something that it’s not very common. I don’t think it’s very common in Latino, monolingual, Spanish. Deciré, tengo una tristeza. And then I would like, okay, let’s process it. What do we need to do? Or like, oh, let me, let us go walk or let’s, and sometimes it was hard because she, I understood she was, my grandma was so isolated.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of the things that people don’t realize is that my grandma is very independent. So she’s used to making movidas on her own. And now because she’s older, she can’t necessarily go out to the store by herself. there’s certain things that she can’t do. So her life became reduced into somebody watching her. And I think one of the biggest things that I learned was the fact that this country doesn’t facilitate for you to think outside of your immediate needs. So for someone to come and take time to take her to a restaurant or take time to take her to the park, it was a lot. And so I think for her also realizing that she needed someone was a very hard, and that’s where the depression came.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Prof. Anita, I want to ask because… Part of the, the caretaking journey sometimes is that there’s a difference of generations and we speak different languages. So I’m wondering if, if you had to, to deal with this interesting perspective of you were having to communicate with youngins who might not. Understand where you’re coming from because the lived experience is so different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a great question. I think as a first-gen college-educated person, I was already dealing with that. All of this, when I talk about the kids, I can’t talk about it without talking about my mom, too. So from the very beginning, when I first read Gloria Anzaldua, Borderlands, La Frontera, I called my mom up. I’m like, mom, why didn’t you teach me more Spanish? I used to speak Spanish before I started school. Why didn’t you continue? And she’s like mija they used to punish us, you know hit us with rulers. The white nuns would punish us for speaking in Spanish so I taught you English so that they wouldn’t do that to you. And so I did the work of teaching my mom what Chicana meant, what feminist meant. I taught her about colorism because my family is the darker one. My father was very dark skinned, Indigenous. So little by little, I was trying to teach my mom and also reclaim our cultural identity and our pride and remove all of the internalized racism that we had grown up with, similar to the sexism, et cetera. So when the kids came into my life, I did the same thing with them. Like I said, they were three and four years old. And I remember distinctly, Michael, either was three or four. And he asked me like, “Honey, why do you have a girlfriend?” I had a girlfriend at the time. It was my first partner after I became a parent. And I said oh, that’s because um I love her and she’s I’m in a relationship with her she’s my girlfriend and I said and he said “But why don’t you have a boyfriend” I said well I actually and at the time identified as bisexual, now I identify as queer and fluid but I said I’m bisexual so that means I can love boys or girls and it doesn’t matter to me you know if they’re a boy or girl I can still love them. And he said, “You know what honey, I think I’m bisexual too.” four years old. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, just so you know, whoever you love, whoever, you want to be a boyfriend or girlfriend that’s always going to be accepted in our home.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will say, uh, one of the things that’s possible when you’re physically with someone is getting to talk at all hours of the day, you know, during dinner, whenever the moment feels right and just learning about the person you’re with. And so I want to ask you, starting with you, What is something that you learned from your grandmother that you don’t think you would have ever had the chance to do unless you had all of that access to her?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I, my grandma, you know, passed away in November, and I think not just because she passed away, I think I always knew my grandma as like this magical person. I’m like, Oh, I’d say it takes a really powerful person to raise a little queer child and to not murder their spirit. And my grandma never, my Grandma was an alcahueta. If I wanted something, she would make it work. And I think my grandma maybe was that because she was trying to make up for the mother that she couldn’t be to her daughters. And that’s when I got a complex idea of my grandma. My grandma was in survival mode. And so her way of parenting her daughters was probably not the kindness or not the most. And so now that she’s older, she’s confronting that because everything comes back. And so maybe the relationship with her daughters is not that close or it’s turbulent because they haven’t spoken about this and there hasn’t been a sorry. And so I think there was this constant thing.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for me, I can’t speak to that because my grandmother was never that to me. And so I had the patience that obviously my mom or my aunts necessarily didn’t have with her, but I did. And so, I think what I learned was that, to view my grandmother’s life with compassion and now that she’s older, to confront her or to talk to her and see, listen, maybe it’s time you forgive yourself for what you didn’t do and think about the things that you did do. And so I think my-the most biggest thing of spending time with someone that’s elderly and someone that confronting their mortality is making sure that they make amends with the guilt or the shame that they carry. And so I’m happy to say that I was helping my grandma gravitate toward that and that I able to honor, ‘You were on survival mode, it’s not your fault. And look, look how far you made it. Look how you shifted. And yes you fucked up. There’s moments that you fuck up as a human life is not that. But I want you to tell you that at the end of the day, the impact in your legacy, the way people speak about your character, the way people thank you for the things that you’ve done for them, it’s very dynamic. So you also need to be kind to yourself.’ And so I think that was the biggest thing to be able to look at my grandma in the complexities of the things where she did mess up but also the compassion of saying you did the best that you could with what you had. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that. Profe Anita, I want to ask you sort of the inverse of that, especially because we started this conversation with you talking about the very real sensation of this is not how you thought your life was going to go. So what is something you learned about yourself now that you are Honey and, uh, you’ve been doing this for almost 20 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the thing that I learned about myself was that I had to figure out a way to take care of myself and my body, mind and spirit even while I was taking care of everyone else. Like, I even before I got the kids, I already was putting other people’s needs before my own. I was a people pleaser, always wanted everybody to love me and to accept me, especially because I grew up thinking I was unlovable. I, you know, grew up different. I have a different hand and a lot of people bullied me for my hand and I thought I would grow up to not have love. And so I think with the kids, I realized like I have to figure out what I need to heal myself because I want to be a parent that parents from a space of healing, that parents from a place of liberation versus fear. I was living my life through my mom’s trauma, and so I had to figure out how to heal, release her trauma and heal my own trauma. And I don’t think I would have gotten as far as I have without the kids. They hold me accountable. They use my words against me. They throw my feminism in my face, and they say they’re not as easily… convinced when I tell them something is good or bad. They challenged me and I like my mom taught me I taught them you have a voice\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah, you have a voice. Thats so powerful. I want to thank each of your for opening up and being as vulnerable as you have been on this very difficult topic. But I think it’s helping me, its helping other folks that are on the precipice of this journey for themselves. So I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to go in depth for what this experience has been like for you. So I want to thank you each for that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want it to our listeners that if you want to follow our guests, I will put all of their socials, where you can find them online, all of the written works, that will all be in the show notes. And if you wanna communicate with us as a Hyphenation show… You can send us an email at HYP at KQED.org so we can know what you want to talk about on our program. But again, just want to say thanks to our guests and thanks to you for being here for this chat. Until next time. Hasta Lleugo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Jim Bennett and Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s been much debate amongst Latinos about the proper term to use when addressing the community at large. Who exactly is included in the word Latino? Who is left out of their own demographic based on appearances or perceptions? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gets together with Maria Burgos and Ian Paget, two Latinos who feel like their belonging in this group is often questioned because of the way they look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2603558631&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on Youtube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWnoGBdpaRo\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian Paget (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@ianpaget_?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> / \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/ianpaget/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> /\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/show/535UJWr55P9nfgiBAyMEWd?si=42abb893eb6741d3\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Tres Leches Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Burgos (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mamapoetress/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, what’s going on? Welcome to Hyphenación where conversation and culture meet. I’m Xorje Andres Olivares. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you can’t see me right now, but trust me when I say– I look Latino! Or, I look like what a stereotype of a Latino looks like… Ok, let me just describe: I’ve got these bushy cejas, I’ve gotta slightly full stash, dark brown eyes, a buzz cut, and a cross necklace. I have gotten, at times, Indian, Middle Eastern… but mostly? “Dude, that guy is straight up Latino”. But why exactly is that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because intentionally or not, we all make snap judgments about people’s race or ethnicity upon seeing them. And I’m pairing race and ethnicity together, a lot like these government forums that ask ‘Hispanic or Latino?’ But that’s a huge category that the United States has created that now lumps people like me, who’s Mexican-American, with someone who has a background that’s, say, Argentinian or Cuban.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People who have been studying race for a long time, specifically race, will be the first to say that it’s all made up, guys. This is a social construct. There’s no singular Latino identity or image. Then there’s people who will say, well, they’re speaking Spanish. They’ve got ties to the Americas. Duh, they are Latino. And then you have those who will, say if they’re brown, they’re Mexican. Which, not the time or place… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when there are 65 million Latinos living in the U.S., we can’t all be Mexican or brown or Spanish speakers for that matter. So who are we? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, on the very first episode of Hyphenación, I want to ask the question, who gets to be Latino in the U.S.? Who decides who’s Latino? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>So you already know I look Mexican-American, and honestly, I’m f*cking proud of that.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m proud of being Mexican.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m proud of where I’m from, which is South Texas. And if I have to admit, the thing that’s most South Texas about me is I am a flour tortilla guy. I am team flour tortilla you guys, which I know is gonna piss off a lot of people, but ni modo. And on today’s show, I’m excited because each of our guests also comes from a Latino hotspot.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like my first guest who is actor performer, Ian Paget, who is the cohost of the Tres Leches podcast. He spent a lot of his time in Miami. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Ian Paget, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hola, Hi\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian, thank you so much for joining us today. So I want to ask Ian, what is the most Miami thing about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, last night it was my accent. Um, because \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When did she come out? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, it’s funny, like technically it’s specifically, I’ll give it to you. Hello. How, oh my God, how are you? That was happening a lot yesterday. Like just because I was, I was with my best friend Juan and then Johnny and like, we’re all from Miami. And then my friend Rafa was there too. And like, there’s just this like way that all of a sudden the L’s kind of turn a little bit like that, which is crazy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I don’t, you know, so that’s like a specific thing that happened when I am around other people who make me feel like home, you know, like it brings out a home in me. But I’d guess like the most Miami thing about me would be like my love of cafecito. Like I love cafe, it’s like when I go back to Miami, I’m like, ‘hi mom, hi dad,’ I’m going to the coffee shop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice to see you, priorities. We will hold space for that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also wanna welcome poet and writer, Maria Burgos, who was born and raised in the Washington Heights neighborhood of New York City. Maria, what would you say is the most New York thing about you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Burgos, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. I would say just be talking very fast in both Spanish and English. It’s like you ask me something and I’m like, what do you mean? What do you want? No, I got you. And sometimes you’ll get spanglish. And if you get it, you get if you don’t then, you know, context clues. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>Duolingo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>Right. Period \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It will all work out with the facial expressions, with the gestures, with movements. It’s a language all in and of itself. Well, I want to thank you both for joining me today. And I want us to start by asking this question of how we each identify culturally. Because for me, if you go to my Instagram bio and pretty much every bio, I’ll say puro Tejano, because yes, I’m Mexican-American, but it’s so specific to Texas and like 90s Texas. So, I would be wearing the Selena purple jumpsuit right now if I could, because that’s how deep I am in it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Maria, if you could say how you identify culturally, what would it be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Culturally, I would say Afro Latina. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ay! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>And if you want to get specific, if people need a visual, I would un \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mangú con los tres golpes\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Just like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Work.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the fried cheese, the eggs, the whole thing, the onions on top, that is me. That’s what you’re gonna get.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, what was it called? Un mangú? Is that what you said? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, con tres golpes. Tres golpes is the meal when you go to a Dominican-style order. Tres golpe. Fried egg, cheese, and salami. And then you make sure you have the onions on top. So it’s filling. You get a little bit of everything. You’ll feel productive after and strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that we both said a beverage and food, by the way, like our like our first opening things were like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the love language of the \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m like, yes, cafecito immediately, no matter what, wherever I am, you need a nice cup of coffee for sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. And Ian, what would you say for you? If your identification culturally, what would it be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ooh, uh, Like funny enough with like your intro, what we’re discussing today, it’s like, I actually think a lot of people don’t even think I’m Latino. Um, but I’m half Honduran. So my mom is from Honduras and then my dad’s he’s, you know, his parents were German. So, um, yeah. And, and then being raised in Miami from like 11 and on, you know, it’s like that. that is a big part of my upbringing and culture or whatever. But yeah, I’m half Honduran. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>Nice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love it. I mean, yes, Maria, you did use Afro Latina, but for the most parts, we didn’t immediately say just the, the alone word of Latino, because that word really does become this umbrella term that wants to encompass everybody and anybody that might have some similarities. And there’s also this phrasing of the Latino community, which the community part sometimes upsets people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I want to ask you, Ian, about even the language of Latino community. make you feel any certain way?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, it’s funny. I’ve never, I’ve never had own my Latinidad more than in the last couple years, really, because everything is like, well, what are you, who are you? And then if you’re in media, it’s just helpful, people wanna know, and anyway, but I bring this up because I think growing up, I was just like me, and I had my mom, and when you’re in Miami, you don’t really have to say you are part of the Latino community, Or like, I don’t have to wear the badge of that it just like was so all around me Jewish Cubans like, like everyone was around but that’s also specific to my upbringing. And Maria, I would say the same for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m guessing if you’re from the Heights like it’s just…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100%. I grew up in a very Dominican household. Again, I grew up in Washington Heights. So like, Salsa is my favorite genre. I grew up listening to that Bachata. There’s always liveliness. Waking up at 7am and hearing your neighbors like blasting Bachata to get their day started, like, it was very Dominican. I went to school nearby, like elementary and junior high was close by. And then when I went to high school, it’s like, oh, I’m like loud and being myself but like other people are like, well, what? Why is she speaking Spanish? Why? I’m confused. Like, I want to know more about her. Is she Latina? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s just interesting, like to come out of your space and realize, like, oh, I may have to explain. Sometimes I choose not to just because we should, you know, accept people for who they are, accept that we come from different walks of life. Like Ian, he’s. grew up in Miami, but you’re half Honduran and your father has German descent. So like, you know, this is what a lot of us are in the U.S. We’re just mixed up with a whole bunch of different things, right? So I sometimes find myself being like, you know what, receive me how you wanna receive me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian, what would you say are some of the main things you get confused for? Cause I mentioned at the top for me, it’s Indian, Middle Eastern, which nothing wrong with that. I, I love that those are some of the comparison points I get, but it just doesn’t resonate with me. What are some of these that you’ve had to field over the years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I definitely get, I get a lot of European. So like it’s European, a specific-sometimes people are like, you know, are you Italian? Are you, you Jewish is even, you know, in its own race, obviously. But like, I always get like a little bit of Spanish, like, oh, are French? Like those are kind of where it sticks. So yeah I’ve gotten like everything over the pond mostly across the pond excuse me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you Maria? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. I’ve been called Ethiopian a lot. That’s a main thing. They’re like, Oh, you have to be Ethiopian. And I’ve had several Ethiopian people speak to me in their dialect and I’m like, ‘Uh, no, but thank you. I’m so flattered,’ Sometimes just, you know, Black American. Some people are like, are you Puerto Rican? Are you like…so many different little things. than when some, usually it’s. question when I start to speak Spanish. It’s when like everyone freezes and they’re like um wow your, your Spanish is so great like you have an accent and I’m sure Ian you get the same thing and you’re like \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Funny that you say that is mine is mine because i don’t look Hispanic, people don’t speak to me in Spanish right so that is not usually the first thing that people notice. This one’s a gag–people ask me like where are you from with like a little bit of a squint in their eye when they see me dance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oooohh, that one!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it’s literally what happens like I’ll be out in spaces and the way I move and the way I dance people are like where are you from? That’s literally the question that sometimes happens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re like, those hits do not lie. They sure don’t. That’s happened to me too, where they’re like wow, you dance. Uh-huh. And I’m like, I sure do, honey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Put on some aventura, some Elivs Crespo, Celia Cruz, I’m here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and I am here. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the distinction between somebody questioning you about who you are and somebody somehow telling you like, no, no. But where are you really from? Because that’s not a question. That’s somebody telling you to correct yourself, to give them the answer they want. So Maria, has there been a moment where you’re just like, somebody’s telling me something that I do not want to hear anymore. for watching. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every day, unfortunately, still living in New York, I get it very often. I remember, for example, years ago, working, I was working as a, I was doing a side job with like banquet serving, and I was talking to one of my colleagues in Spanish, he was, I believe Mexican, and we were just chatting back and forth, adonde ponemos los vasos, adonde putemos los platos, and this man behind me who we were serving. He like waited for me to finish what I was doing, and then was like, I’m so sorry, where are you from? Because you speak Spanish so well, and my wife is Argentinian, and like, I mean, you know, it sounds a little bit different, and I’m not sure, but it was like accusatory, very much like, did you go to school to learn Spanish so while, kind of? And I said, ‘I’m Dominican,’ And granted the proper term is Dominican American, now my parents are Dominican, but I like to be very proud and say I’m Dominican and have people sit with that. Sit with that and hold on to that and figure it out. And he was very, like, taken aback that I was very firm and like, I’m Dominican. And he’s like, yeah, but I’m like, I’m a Dominican, is there anything else I could do for you? And he will sort of just like “Oop.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian, what is the most recent moment where you had to force somebody to sit with your answer of like, not only am I Latino, I’m Honduran, Honduran-American, just bye. Like end of conversation, punto final, move on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">um oh my god you know i i don’t really experience a lot of moments like that because to me when i get to share that i’m latino to me it’s like it’s such a special like bet you didn’t know this\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">also, as I get to answer and tell them— then they’re like super surprised, which I love, cause I’m a show off and I love to surprise people. But I wonder if I was in their head, I wonder if they’re like, oh my God, that’s so cool. I’m literally making something up right now, but this is fun to do hypothetical. But I wonder, if they are like, oh my god, that is great, because I’m white passing. And so to them, they’re like of you’re white passing, look at, oh my gosh, that amazing, but you’re Hispanic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like something that I have dealt with my entire life, especially leaving my hometown of Eagle Pass, Texas is, oh, this dude’s brown, can’t really hide. In Mexican saying, it’s like el nopal en la frente, where you have the cactus so big on your forehead, you can’t hide that you’re Mexican. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I, it just hit me. One of the other things that I think is the most obvious thing about me is my queerness is like that I’m gay. It’s just always been… I think maybe that’s another reason why my Latina that has never been a thing that like, obviously I’m white passing, blah, blah. But the most obviously thing about me is like, that’s a gay person. I’ve just never really been able to hide it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyway, that’s like a separate thing, but\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No,it’s important\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, no, it’s something that it’s absolutely important because it gets to this idea of presentation and the politicization of presentation, like some of the things we can control and some of things that are completely out of it, so I actually want to take a little break because when we come back, obviously there is this, this perception of Latina that that gets to more than what we want Latina to be like people are making choices for us and putting targets on our back because of it. So how do we actually live in that society and in that scenario? So we’re going to talk about that when we get back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I want to get a little bit deeper into this notion of Latinidad and others’ perception of our identity. And I’m going to do so by sharing this story real quick. So when I was a freshman in high school, my band took a trip to Disney world from f*cking South Texas. We took a charter bus all the way to Orlando, which I don’t suggest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How long was that ride? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Girl, it was a day and a half, we were poor border kids we couldn’t fly we had to pay for a charter bus. And so if that wasn’t bad enough after having been on a charter bus for a day-and-a-half we arrive at the happiest place on earth and we’re in line for the Dumbo ride and I was the designated leader for some reason. And so we’re in line and the attendant asks like, “Aye how many people are in your team?” so we can like such all up together and me trying to be a good leader, I turn around starting to count people, but I think he mistook what I was doing. So he said, “Oh, uh, cuantas personas, groupo…” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What?! Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and the fact that this…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paget:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …in las escuelas…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …in la Bibliotecta…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aye, aye, aye.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the fact that this happened 20 plus years ago, and it’s still not haunts me, but like, it’s still is front of mind for me to remember says that how people receive us is really critical. So I’m curious for you, Maria, if you have a moment, like a standout moment for you where someone was like, this is who I think, or this is my assumption of you right off the bat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This one’s very interesting so we talked we touched a little bit about colorism in latinidad and um even presenting so for the longest you know my i wore my hair straight and i had a certain esthetic to me just because of course in a lot of hispanic households you feel like you have to present a certain way to be known as latina or latino Um, but then I went through a transition where I went natural and this is my hair now.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I moved back into my childhood apartment because we’re in rent control in New York. I mean, um, a lot of my neighbors that saw me grow up, they would always speak to me in Spanish. They knew they know me. They know my mom, you know, they know my family. So they always spoke to me in Spanish and my neighbor who hadn’t seen me in a while and saw the change was speaking to me in English as if he was meeting me for the first time. So he was like, “oh, how are you my friend Maria? You look good,” and I was like… ¿Cómo está vecino? and he was still like English. And I was like, this is a very weird exchange. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, so he continued in English even after you addressed him in Spanish? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes!\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was kind of like, okay, clearly you don’t know how to receive me right now because I don’t know, I guess the change somehow made you feel like, okay, she’s not Latina anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">but that’s so interesting that like you’re straightening your like the straightening of the hair to me would be like whatever it’s it’s hiding more of your culture and who you are and then to go more to your naturalness and then for him to speak english that feels a little backwards \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting, right? You’re like, you would think with the straight hair, you would not, you’ll be like, oh, she’s not. Cause I feel like I look way more Latina now than ever.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But unfortunately in certain communities where the beauty standard is a certain, or they want it to be a certain thing. You know, that’s why I mentioned colorism. Like in my school, I did grow up with a lot of girls that were lighter than me and had like a very long hair and the light eyes. So I felt different, but not really, because I also saw me in the community. But when I made this change. I when he yeah, it was a very interesting moment. I was standing there like this is very uncomfortable, but okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think it’s so interesting how many, like who exactly is okay with putting you in a, in an uncomfortable position and being okay to stand in this discomfort with you and like, I don’t know, there’s, there was a weird ownership that needs to be taken in that, but Ian, do you have a similar situation where, uh, especially in the line of work that you do, where somebody clocked you or, or made you feel differently about how you actually are in the world?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it hasn’t happened in that instance, like the way Maria just described, but like, I would say it’s happened in a, in a way that like the work I get. So like, I, I bring this example up because it’s like, it was, it was the first time I noticed it, but I got to do West Side Story when I was right out of college, and I was… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you don’t know the show, it’s like Sharks and Jets, Puerto Ricans against the Americans. And I was cast as one of the Jets on the American side and one of weirdest things about being in a show like that where it’s about two gangs who are against each other and what, you know, like a completely different culture, this and that is like, when we would do dance at the gym, I, the whole time was like, I should be on that side with the Sharks. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I bring this up because like, I think sometimes I, again, I love how I’ve experienced the world and all of that, but like, I have had a little bit of like a resentment towards like, you know, I don’t know, the ether around just like, oh, like, because my last name isn’t Ramirez, which is, if I went with like my mom’s maiden name, Ian Ramirez I think would automatically change how people, like you said, receive me. Yeah, it’s, I think it’s the opposite. It’s the I wish I was seen more Latino than I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say that for a lot of us, this this idea of what Latina that is and who is Latino is about media representation and the narratives that are there. And unfortunately, kind of going back to the face and the name that I have, I remember when I was in college, and I was studying broadcast journalism, that all of my professors immediately when I was getting ready to go to into the workforce, they said, “So you’re doing Telemundo, right? You’re doing Univision?” And I was like, my Spanish is not that great, but just the implication that if I was going to be successful in this field, I was immediately going to have to go to the Latino side of things.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I’m curious, starting with you, Ian, about just when somebody does recognize that you are Latino, the more typecasting aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s why I’m really excited to have these conversations is because I don’t think there’s enough story and storytelling being told of like the white passing Latino, like, or like that, that, that it comes- Yeah, it’s just the…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just the spectrum, the spectrum in general of Latino- the variation- We don’t look like one thing and accept that accept it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And that because I don’t have that last name, does that mean I don’t get to tell my version of like, like Latin story, which is very much embedded in my, my life story. You know what I mean? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>And I love that you talk about, it’s about the stories that we make and the stories that we write. And Maria, as a writer, who incorporates a lot of your identity in what you do and in a lot into your performance. Was that an easy decision from day one? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. In a way, because I, again, growing up and getting older, I think Ian mentioned this, you get older and then that’s when you notice that you are a little bit different because you’re a little outside of your community. I was so tired of like fighting people on my own identity. And I want to talk about that all the time. And Ian is bringing up so many good points where, like, What is a Latino to you? Why are we, we’re living, why do we have to live within the identity as someone made up for us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like in movies, in novellas that my mom watches. For the longest, I’m like, oh, are these white people like, you know, acting like Mexicans and it was actually Mexicans, you know what I mean? But I’m like, but I meet Mexicans and they look like a variation of different things. I meet South Americans, I meet Dominicans, I meet Puerto Ricans and I see a spectrum of different people. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when I do get met with the question or when I met with like the scrutiny of like, are you sure? I’m like, well, what am I supposed to look like to you? Because apparently you have the definition in your dictionary of what I’m supposed to like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And like touching on the little bit of acting that I’ve done before, I always get met with like not looking Latina enough and to them it means the straight hair. I have to be maybe a little light skinned. I have certain features and to me that’s confusing because I’m like what? Again, I have met people, there are people in my family that look like Ian and to me I immediately meet them and I’m not seeing like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: I need to meet them\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Ian is my cousin. Oh my god. He can really be my cousin. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god, what if this was like a find your roots? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No kidding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so in my work, I always want to be proud and I always just want to speak to the person that is trying to figure out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, you know, they don’t feel Latino enough or they don’ feel American enough or whatever it is. It’s like, you are a hyphen and that is okay. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for the call back to the, to, it is, it’s all about hyphenated identity.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I want to end by asking each of you, what’s your favorite part about being Latino? And I’ll say that for me, there’s something beautiful about just hearing Spanish and understanding either all of it, a little bit of it. That we have this energy\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like this intimacy that happens, this like, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s something beautiful about that communication. So I’m wondering for you, Maria, what is your favorite thing about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was going to say la comida, but I would like to say always la comida from any, any Latino communities, countries is the food is always going to hit, it’s always going to hit. There’s always gonna be a special dish. But I will also say it’s just our spiciness, that spiciness to show up in the world. Like, we show up. We always show up, we always, like. you know, whether we don’t present however we’re supposed to present, there’s something about us that another Latina person would be like, that is my people right over there, and I’m gonna go chat with them. So yeah, I would say our spicy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian, what is yours? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I would say there’s a, an immense amount of, uh, heart that I feel like, and I, when you ask like, what’s my favorite part, I think about like my mom a lot, right? And like, because she, to me is my, she’s like my access to that every day. And the way she and my aunts and yes, and like my my Latin side of the family if there’s just such a there’s such a heart for like, you are always family. And that’s how I feel whenever I’m, that’s why I felt speaking to both of you that like immediately there’s just this shorthand, this like way that we get each other. So I guess it would be like the heart, the heart of the community, you know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. I love that we’re now like primos. Well we found out that Ian is probably Maria’s primo, but I’m also included in this family, this huge growing Hyphenación family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So thank you both for joining me for this really in-depth, fantastic conversation. I want to tell our listeners, if you want to follow either of my guests, just go to the show notes and you’ll have all of their information, including how to listen to Ian’s podcast, Tres Leches. And also, if you want to share your thoughts on what should be a topic on Hyphenación, be sure to email us at hyp@kqed.org. ¡Hasta Lleugo! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chris Hambrick is our editor. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s been much debate amongst Latinos about the proper term to use when addressing the community at large. Who exactly is included in the word Latino? Who is left out of their own demographic based on appearances or perceptions? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gets together with Maria Burgos and Ian Paget, two Latinos who feel like their belonging in this group is often questioned because of the way they look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2603558631&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on Youtube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/aWnoGBdpaRo'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/aWnoGBdpaRo'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian Paget (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@ianpaget_?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> / \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/ianpaget/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> /\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/show/535UJWr55P9nfgiBAyMEWd?si=42abb893eb6741d3\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Tres Leches Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Burgos (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mamapoetress/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, what’s going on? Welcome to Hyphenación where conversation and culture meet. I’m Xorje Andres Olivares. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you can’t see me right now, but trust me when I say– I look Latino! Or, I look like what a stereotype of a Latino looks like… Ok, let me just describe: I’ve got these bushy cejas, I’ve gotta slightly full stash, dark brown eyes, a buzz cut, and a cross necklace. I have gotten, at times, Indian, Middle Eastern… but mostly? “Dude, that guy is straight up Latino”. But why exactly is that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because intentionally or not, we all make snap judgments about people’s race or ethnicity upon seeing them. And I’m pairing race and ethnicity together, a lot like these government forums that ask ‘Hispanic or Latino?’ But that’s a huge category that the United States has created that now lumps people like me, who’s Mexican-American, with someone who has a background that’s, say, Argentinian or Cuban.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People who have been studying race for a long time, specifically race, will be the first to say that it’s all made up, guys. This is a social construct. There’s no singular Latino identity or image. Then there’s people who will say, well, they’re speaking Spanish. They’ve got ties to the Americas. Duh, they are Latino. And then you have those who will, say if they’re brown, they’re Mexican. Which, not the time or place… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when there are 65 million Latinos living in the U.S., we can’t all be Mexican or brown or Spanish speakers for that matter. So who are we? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, on the very first episode of Hyphenación, I want to ask the question, who gets to be Latino in the U.S.? Who decides who’s Latino? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>So you already know I look Mexican-American, and honestly, I’m f*cking proud of that.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m proud of being Mexican.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m proud of where I’m from, which is South Texas. And if I have to admit, the thing that’s most South Texas about me is I am a flour tortilla guy. I am team flour tortilla you guys, which I know is gonna piss off a lot of people, but ni modo. And on today’s show, I’m excited because each of our guests also comes from a Latino hotspot.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like my first guest who is actor performer, Ian Paget, who is the cohost of the Tres Leches podcast. He spent a lot of his time in Miami. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Ian Paget, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hola, Hi\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian, thank you so much for joining us today. So I want to ask Ian, what is the most Miami thing about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, last night it was my accent. Um, because \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When did she come out? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, it’s funny, like technically it’s specifically, I’ll give it to you. Hello. How, oh my God, how are you? That was happening a lot yesterday. Like just because I was, I was with my best friend Juan and then Johnny and like, we’re all from Miami. And then my friend Rafa was there too. And like, there’s just this like way that all of a sudden the L’s kind of turn a little bit like that, which is crazy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I don’t, you know, so that’s like a specific thing that happened when I am around other people who make me feel like home, you know, like it brings out a home in me. But I’d guess like the most Miami thing about me would be like my love of cafecito. Like I love cafe, it’s like when I go back to Miami, I’m like, ‘hi mom, hi dad,’ I’m going to the coffee shop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice to see you, priorities. We will hold space for that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also wanna welcome poet and writer, Maria Burgos, who was born and raised in the Washington Heights neighborhood of New York City. Maria, what would you say is the most New York thing about you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Burgos, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. I would say just be talking very fast in both Spanish and English. It’s like you ask me something and I’m like, what do you mean? What do you want? No, I got you. And sometimes you’ll get spanglish. And if you get it, you get if you don’t then, you know, context clues. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>Duolingo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>Right. Period \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It will all work out with the facial expressions, with the gestures, with movements. It’s a language all in and of itself. Well, I want to thank you both for joining me today. And I want us to start by asking this question of how we each identify culturally. Because for me, if you go to my Instagram bio and pretty much every bio, I’ll say puro Tejano, because yes, I’m Mexican-American, but it’s so specific to Texas and like 90s Texas. So, I would be wearing the Selena purple jumpsuit right now if I could, because that’s how deep I am in it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Maria, if you could say how you identify culturally, what would it be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Culturally, I would say Afro Latina. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ay! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>And if you want to get specific, if people need a visual, I would un \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mangú con los tres golpes\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Just like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Work.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the fried cheese, the eggs, the whole thing, the onions on top, that is me. That’s what you’re gonna get.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, what was it called? Un mangú? Is that what you said? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, con tres golpes. Tres golpes is the meal when you go to a Dominican-style order. Tres golpe. Fried egg, cheese, and salami. And then you make sure you have the onions on top. So it’s filling. You get a little bit of everything. You’ll feel productive after and strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that we both said a beverage and food, by the way, like our like our first opening things were like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the love language of the \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m like, yes, cafecito immediately, no matter what, wherever I am, you need a nice cup of coffee for sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. And Ian, what would you say for you? If your identification culturally, what would it be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ooh, uh, Like funny enough with like your intro, what we’re discussing today, it’s like, I actually think a lot of people don’t even think I’m Latino. Um, but I’m half Honduran. So my mom is from Honduras and then my dad’s he’s, you know, his parents were German. So, um, yeah. And, and then being raised in Miami from like 11 and on, you know, it’s like that. that is a big part of my upbringing and culture or whatever. But yeah, I’m half Honduran. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>Nice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love it. I mean, yes, Maria, you did use Afro Latina, but for the most parts, we didn’t immediately say just the, the alone word of Latino, because that word really does become this umbrella term that wants to encompass everybody and anybody that might have some similarities. And there’s also this phrasing of the Latino community, which the community part sometimes upsets people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I want to ask you, Ian, about even the language of Latino community. make you feel any certain way?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, it’s funny. I’ve never, I’ve never had own my Latinidad more than in the last couple years, really, because everything is like, well, what are you, who are you? And then if you’re in media, it’s just helpful, people wanna know, and anyway, but I bring this up because I think growing up, I was just like me, and I had my mom, and when you’re in Miami, you don’t really have to say you are part of the Latino community, Or like, I don’t have to wear the badge of that it just like was so all around me Jewish Cubans like, like everyone was around but that’s also specific to my upbringing. And Maria, I would say the same for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m guessing if you’re from the Heights like it’s just…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100%. I grew up in a very Dominican household. Again, I grew up in Washington Heights. So like, Salsa is my favorite genre. I grew up listening to that Bachata. There’s always liveliness. Waking up at 7am and hearing your neighbors like blasting Bachata to get their day started, like, it was very Dominican. I went to school nearby, like elementary and junior high was close by. And then when I went to high school, it’s like, oh, I’m like loud and being myself but like other people are like, well, what? Why is she speaking Spanish? Why? I’m confused. Like, I want to know more about her. Is she Latina? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s just interesting, like to come out of your space and realize, like, oh, I may have to explain. Sometimes I choose not to just because we should, you know, accept people for who they are, accept that we come from different walks of life. Like Ian, he’s. grew up in Miami, but you’re half Honduran and your father has German descent. So like, you know, this is what a lot of us are in the U.S. We’re just mixed up with a whole bunch of different things, right? So I sometimes find myself being like, you know what, receive me how you wanna receive me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian, what would you say are some of the main things you get confused for? Cause I mentioned at the top for me, it’s Indian, Middle Eastern, which nothing wrong with that. I, I love that those are some of the comparison points I get, but it just doesn’t resonate with me. What are some of these that you’ve had to field over the years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I definitely get, I get a lot of European. So like it’s European, a specific-sometimes people are like, you know, are you Italian? Are you, you Jewish is even, you know, in its own race, obviously. But like, I always get like a little bit of Spanish, like, oh, are French? Like those are kind of where it sticks. So yeah I’ve gotten like everything over the pond mostly across the pond excuse me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you Maria? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. I’ve been called Ethiopian a lot. That’s a main thing. They’re like, Oh, you have to be Ethiopian. And I’ve had several Ethiopian people speak to me in their dialect and I’m like, ‘Uh, no, but thank you. I’m so flattered,’ Sometimes just, you know, Black American. Some people are like, are you Puerto Rican? Are you like…so many different little things. than when some, usually it’s. question when I start to speak Spanish. It’s when like everyone freezes and they’re like um wow your, your Spanish is so great like you have an accent and I’m sure Ian you get the same thing and you’re like \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Funny that you say that is mine is mine because i don’t look Hispanic, people don’t speak to me in Spanish right so that is not usually the first thing that people notice. This one’s a gag–people ask me like where are you from with like a little bit of a squint in their eye when they see me dance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oooohh, that one!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it’s literally what happens like I’ll be out in spaces and the way I move and the way I dance people are like where are you from? That’s literally the question that sometimes happens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re like, those hits do not lie. They sure don’t. That’s happened to me too, where they’re like wow, you dance. Uh-huh. And I’m like, I sure do, honey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Put on some aventura, some Elivs Crespo, Celia Cruz, I’m here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and I am here. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the distinction between somebody questioning you about who you are and somebody somehow telling you like, no, no. But where are you really from? Because that’s not a question. That’s somebody telling you to correct yourself, to give them the answer they want. So Maria, has there been a moment where you’re just like, somebody’s telling me something that I do not want to hear anymore. for watching. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every day, unfortunately, still living in New York, I get it very often. I remember, for example, years ago, working, I was working as a, I was doing a side job with like banquet serving, and I was talking to one of my colleagues in Spanish, he was, I believe Mexican, and we were just chatting back and forth, adonde ponemos los vasos, adonde putemos los platos, and this man behind me who we were serving. He like waited for me to finish what I was doing, and then was like, I’m so sorry, where are you from? Because you speak Spanish so well, and my wife is Argentinian, and like, I mean, you know, it sounds a little bit different, and I’m not sure, but it was like accusatory, very much like, did you go to school to learn Spanish so while, kind of? And I said, ‘I’m Dominican,’ And granted the proper term is Dominican American, now my parents are Dominican, but I like to be very proud and say I’m Dominican and have people sit with that. Sit with that and hold on to that and figure it out. And he was very, like, taken aback that I was very firm and like, I’m Dominican. And he’s like, yeah, but I’m like, I’m a Dominican, is there anything else I could do for you? And he will sort of just like “Oop.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian, what is the most recent moment where you had to force somebody to sit with your answer of like, not only am I Latino, I’m Honduran, Honduran-American, just bye. Like end of conversation, punto final, move on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">um oh my god you know i i don’t really experience a lot of moments like that because to me when i get to share that i’m latino to me it’s like it’s such a special like bet you didn’t know this\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">also, as I get to answer and tell them— then they’re like super surprised, which I love, cause I’m a show off and I love to surprise people. But I wonder if I was in their head, I wonder if they’re like, oh my God, that’s so cool. I’m literally making something up right now, but this is fun to do hypothetical. But I wonder, if they are like, oh my god, that is great, because I’m white passing. And so to them, they’re like of you’re white passing, look at, oh my gosh, that amazing, but you’re Hispanic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like something that I have dealt with my entire life, especially leaving my hometown of Eagle Pass, Texas is, oh, this dude’s brown, can’t really hide. In Mexican saying, it’s like el nopal en la frente, where you have the cactus so big on your forehead, you can’t hide that you’re Mexican. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I, it just hit me. One of the other things that I think is the most obvious thing about me is my queerness is like that I’m gay. It’s just always been… I think maybe that’s another reason why my Latina that has never been a thing that like, obviously I’m white passing, blah, blah. But the most obviously thing about me is like, that’s a gay person. I’ve just never really been able to hide it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyway, that’s like a separate thing, but\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No,it’s important\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, no, it’s something that it’s absolutely important because it gets to this idea of presentation and the politicization of presentation, like some of the things we can control and some of things that are completely out of it, so I actually want to take a little break because when we come back, obviously there is this, this perception of Latina that that gets to more than what we want Latina to be like people are making choices for us and putting targets on our back because of it. So how do we actually live in that society and in that scenario? So we’re going to talk about that when we get back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I want to get a little bit deeper into this notion of Latinidad and others’ perception of our identity. And I’m going to do so by sharing this story real quick. So when I was a freshman in high school, my band took a trip to Disney world from f*cking South Texas. We took a charter bus all the way to Orlando, which I don’t suggest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How long was that ride? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Girl, it was a day and a half, we were poor border kids we couldn’t fly we had to pay for a charter bus. And so if that wasn’t bad enough after having been on a charter bus for a day-and-a-half we arrive at the happiest place on earth and we’re in line for the Dumbo ride and I was the designated leader for some reason. And so we’re in line and the attendant asks like, “Aye how many people are in your team?” so we can like such all up together and me trying to be a good leader, I turn around starting to count people, but I think he mistook what I was doing. So he said, “Oh, uh, cuantas personas, groupo…” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What?! Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and the fact that this…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paget:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …in las escuelas…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …in la Bibliotecta…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aye, aye, aye.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the fact that this happened 20 plus years ago, and it’s still not haunts me, but like, it’s still is front of mind for me to remember says that how people receive us is really critical. So I’m curious for you, Maria, if you have a moment, like a standout moment for you where someone was like, this is who I think, or this is my assumption of you right off the bat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This one’s very interesting so we talked we touched a little bit about colorism in latinidad and um even presenting so for the longest you know my i wore my hair straight and i had a certain esthetic to me just because of course in a lot of hispanic households you feel like you have to present a certain way to be known as latina or latino Um, but then I went through a transition where I went natural and this is my hair now.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I moved back into my childhood apartment because we’re in rent control in New York. I mean, um, a lot of my neighbors that saw me grow up, they would always speak to me in Spanish. They knew they know me. They know my mom, you know, they know my family. So they always spoke to me in Spanish and my neighbor who hadn’t seen me in a while and saw the change was speaking to me in English as if he was meeting me for the first time. So he was like, “oh, how are you my friend Maria? You look good,” and I was like… ¿Cómo está vecino? and he was still like English. And I was like, this is a very weird exchange. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, so he continued in English even after you addressed him in Spanish? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes!\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was kind of like, okay, clearly you don’t know how to receive me right now because I don’t know, I guess the change somehow made you feel like, okay, she’s not Latina anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">but that’s so interesting that like you’re straightening your like the straightening of the hair to me would be like whatever it’s it’s hiding more of your culture and who you are and then to go more to your naturalness and then for him to speak english that feels a little backwards \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting, right? You’re like, you would think with the straight hair, you would not, you’ll be like, oh, she’s not. Cause I feel like I look way more Latina now than ever.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But unfortunately in certain communities where the beauty standard is a certain, or they want it to be a certain thing. You know, that’s why I mentioned colorism. Like in my school, I did grow up with a lot of girls that were lighter than me and had like a very long hair and the light eyes. So I felt different, but not really, because I also saw me in the community. But when I made this change. I when he yeah, it was a very interesting moment. I was standing there like this is very uncomfortable, but okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think it’s so interesting how many, like who exactly is okay with putting you in a, in an uncomfortable position and being okay to stand in this discomfort with you and like, I don’t know, there’s, there was a weird ownership that needs to be taken in that, but Ian, do you have a similar situation where, uh, especially in the line of work that you do, where somebody clocked you or, or made you feel differently about how you actually are in the world?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it hasn’t happened in that instance, like the way Maria just described, but like, I would say it’s happened in a, in a way that like the work I get. So like, I, I bring this example up because it’s like, it was, it was the first time I noticed it, but I got to do West Side Story when I was right out of college, and I was… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you don’t know the show, it’s like Sharks and Jets, Puerto Ricans against the Americans. And I was cast as one of the Jets on the American side and one of weirdest things about being in a show like that where it’s about two gangs who are against each other and what, you know, like a completely different culture, this and that is like, when we would do dance at the gym, I, the whole time was like, I should be on that side with the Sharks. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I bring this up because like, I think sometimes I, again, I love how I’ve experienced the world and all of that, but like, I have had a little bit of like a resentment towards like, you know, I don’t know, the ether around just like, oh, like, because my last name isn’t Ramirez, which is, if I went with like my mom’s maiden name, Ian Ramirez I think would automatically change how people, like you said, receive me. Yeah, it’s, I think it’s the opposite. It’s the I wish I was seen more Latino than I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say that for a lot of us, this this idea of what Latina that is and who is Latino is about media representation and the narratives that are there. And unfortunately, kind of going back to the face and the name that I have, I remember when I was in college, and I was studying broadcast journalism, that all of my professors immediately when I was getting ready to go to into the workforce, they said, “So you’re doing Telemundo, right? You’re doing Univision?” And I was like, my Spanish is not that great, but just the implication that if I was going to be successful in this field, I was immediately going to have to go to the Latino side of things.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I’m curious, starting with you, Ian, about just when somebody does recognize that you are Latino, the more typecasting aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s why I’m really excited to have these conversations is because I don’t think there’s enough story and storytelling being told of like the white passing Latino, like, or like that, that, that it comes- Yeah, it’s just the…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just the spectrum, the spectrum in general of Latino- the variation- We don’t look like one thing and accept that accept it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And that because I don’t have that last name, does that mean I don’t get to tell my version of like, like Latin story, which is very much embedded in my, my life story. You know what I mean? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>And I love that you talk about, it’s about the stories that we make and the stories that we write. And Maria, as a writer, who incorporates a lot of your identity in what you do and in a lot into your performance. Was that an easy decision from day one? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. In a way, because I, again, growing up and getting older, I think Ian mentioned this, you get older and then that’s when you notice that you are a little bit different because you’re a little outside of your community. I was so tired of like fighting people on my own identity. And I want to talk about that all the time. And Ian is bringing up so many good points where, like, What is a Latino to you? Why are we, we’re living, why do we have to live within the identity as someone made up for us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like in movies, in novellas that my mom watches. For the longest, I’m like, oh, are these white people like, you know, acting like Mexicans and it was actually Mexicans, you know what I mean? But I’m like, but I meet Mexicans and they look like a variation of different things. I meet South Americans, I meet Dominicans, I meet Puerto Ricans and I see a spectrum of different people. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when I do get met with the question or when I met with like the scrutiny of like, are you sure? I’m like, well, what am I supposed to look like to you? Because apparently you have the definition in your dictionary of what I’m supposed to like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And like touching on the little bit of acting that I’ve done before, I always get met with like not looking Latina enough and to them it means the straight hair. I have to be maybe a little light skinned. I have certain features and to me that’s confusing because I’m like what? Again, I have met people, there are people in my family that look like Ian and to me I immediately meet them and I’m not seeing like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: I need to meet them\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Ian is my cousin. Oh my god. He can really be my cousin. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god, what if this was like a find your roots? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No kidding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so in my work, I always want to be proud and I always just want to speak to the person that is trying to figure out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, you know, they don’t feel Latino enough or they don’ feel American enough or whatever it is. It’s like, you are a hyphen and that is okay. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for the call back to the, to, it is, it’s all about hyphenated identity.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I want to end by asking each of you, what’s your favorite part about being Latino? And I’ll say that for me, there’s something beautiful about just hearing Spanish and understanding either all of it, a little bit of it. That we have this energy\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like this intimacy that happens, this like, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s something beautiful about that communication. So I’m wondering for you, Maria, what is your favorite thing about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Burgos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was going to say la comida, but I would like to say always la comida from any, any Latino communities, countries is the food is always going to hit, it’s always going to hit. There’s always gonna be a special dish. But I will also say it’s just our spiciness, that spiciness to show up in the world. Like, we show up. We always show up, we always, like. you know, whether we don’t present however we’re supposed to present, there’s something about us that another Latina person would be like, that is my people right over there, and I’m gonna go chat with them. So yeah, I would say our spicy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ian, what is yours? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paget: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I would say there’s a, an immense amount of, uh, heart that I feel like, and I, when you ask like, what’s my favorite part, I think about like my mom a lot, right? And like, because she, to me is my, she’s like my access to that every day. And the way she and my aunts and yes, and like my my Latin side of the family if there’s just such a there’s such a heart for like, you are always family. And that’s how I feel whenever I’m, that’s why I felt speaking to both of you that like immediately there’s just this shorthand, this like way that we get each other. So I guess it would be like the heart, the heart of the community, you know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. I love that we’re now like primos. Well we found out that Ian is probably Maria’s primo, but I’m also included in this family, this huge growing Hyphenación family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So thank you both for joining me for this really in-depth, fantastic conversation. I want to tell our listeners, if you want to follow either of my guests, just go to the show notes and you’ll have all of their information, including how to listen to Ian’s podcast, Tres Leches. And also, if you want to share your thoughts on what should be a topic on Hyphenación, be sure to email us at hyp@kqed.org. ¡Hasta Lleugo! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chris Hambrick is our editor. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Chris Thile steps to the mic as the host of Live from Here (formerly A Prairie Home Companion), a live public radio variety show. Download Chris’s Song of the Week plus other highlights from the broadcast. Produced by American Public Media.",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"title": "Selected Shorts",
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"soldout": {
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"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
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"title": "TED Radio Hour",
"info": "The TED Radio Hour is a journey through fascinating ideas, astonishing inventions, fresh approaches to old problems, and new ways to think and create.",
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"info": "Tech Nation is a weekly public radio program, hosted by Dr. Moira Gunn. Founded in 1993, it has grown from a simple interview show to a multi-faceted production, featuring conversations with noted technology and science leaders, and a weekly science and technology-related commentary.",
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"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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