Episode Transcript
This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.
Xorje Olivares, Host: Hey, what’s going on? Welcome to Hyphenación where conversation and culture meet. I’m Xorje Andres Olivares. So, you can’t see me right now, but trust me when I say– I look Latino! Or, I look like what a stereotype of a Latino looks like… Ok, let me just describe: I’ve got these bushy cejas, I’ve gotta slightly full stash, dark brown eyes, a buzz cut, and a cross necklace. I have gotten, at times, Indian, Middle Eastern… but mostly? “Dude, that guy is straight up Latino”. But why exactly is that?
Because intentionally or not, we all make snap judgments about people’s race or ethnicity upon seeing them. And I’m pairing race and ethnicity together, a lot like these government forums that ask ‘Hispanic or Latino?’ But that’s a huge category that the United States has created that now lumps people like me, who’s Mexican-American, with someone who has a background that’s, say, Argentinian or Cuban.
People who have been studying race for a long time, specifically race, will be the first to say that it’s all made up, guys. This is a social construct. There’s no singular Latino identity or image. Then there’s people who will say, well, they’re speaking Spanish. They’ve got ties to the Americas. Duh, they are Latino. And then you have those who will, say if they’re brown, they’re Mexican. Which, not the time or place… But when there are 65 million Latinos living in the U.S., we can’t all be Mexican or brown or Spanish speakers for that matter. So who are we?
Today, on the very first episode of Hyphenación, I want to ask the question, who gets to be Latino in the U.S.? Who decides who’s Latino? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet.
Olivares: So you already know I look Mexican-American, and honestly, I’m f*cking proud of that. I’m proud of being Mexican. I’m proud of where I’m from, which is South Texas. And if I have to admit, the thing that’s most South Texas about me is I am a flour tortilla guy. I am team flour tortilla you guys, which I know is gonna piss off a lot of people, but ni modo. And on today’s show, I’m excited because each of our guests also comes from a Latino hotspot.
Like my first guest who is actor performer, Ian Paget, who is the cohost of the Tres Leches podcast. He spent a lot of his time in Miami.
Ian Paget, Guest: Hola, Hi
Olivares: Ian, thank you so much for joining us today. So I want to ask Ian, what is the most Miami thing about you?
Paget: Well, last night it was my accent. Um, because
Olivares: When did she come out?
Paget: Well, you know, it’s funny, like technically it’s specifically, I’ll give it to you. Hello. How, oh my God, how are you? That was happening a lot yesterday. Like just because I was, I was with my best friend Juan and then Johnny and like, we’re all from Miami. And then my friend Rafa was there too. And like, there’s just this like way that all of a sudden the L’s kind of turn a little bit like that, which is crazy.
Um, I don’t, you know, so that’s like a specific thing that happened when I am around other people who make me feel like home, you know, like it brings out a home in me. But I’d guess like the most Miami thing about me would be like my love of cafecito. Like I love cafe, it’s like when I go back to Miami, I’m like, ‘hi mom, hi dad,’ I’m going to the coffee shop.
Olivares: Nice to see you, priorities. We will hold space for that.
I also wanna welcome poet and writer, Maria Burgos, who was born and raised in the Washington Heights neighborhood of New York City. Maria, what would you say is the most New York thing about you?
Maria Burgos, Guest: Wow. I would say just be talking very fast in both Spanish and English. It’s like you ask me something and I’m like, what do you mean? What do you want? No, I got you. And sometimes you’ll get spanglish. And if you get it, you get if you don’t then, you know, context clues.
Paget: Duolingo.
Burgos: Right. Period
Olivares: It will all work out with the facial expressions, with the gestures, with movements. It’s a language all in and of itself. Well, I want to thank you both for joining me today. And I want us to start by asking this question of how we each identify culturally. Because for me, if you go to my Instagram bio and pretty much every bio, I’ll say puro Tejano, because yes, I’m Mexican-American, but it’s so specific to Texas and like 90s Texas. So, I would be wearing the Selena purple jumpsuit right now if I could, because that’s how deep I am in it.
So Maria, if you could say how you identify culturally, what would it be?
Burgos: Culturally, I would say Afro Latina.
Paget: Ay!
Burgos: And if you want to get specific, if people need a visual, I would un Mangú con los tres golpes. Just like that.
Paget: Work.
Burgos: With the fried cheese, the eggs, the whole thing, the onions on top, that is me. That’s what you’re gonna get.
Paget: Wait, what was it called? Un mangú? Is that what you said?
Burgos: Yes, con tres golpes. Tres golpes is the meal when you go to a Dominican-style order. Tres golpe. Fried egg, cheese, and salami. And then you make sure you have the onions on top. So it’s filling. You get a little bit of everything. You’ll feel productive after and strong.
Paget: I love that we both said a beverage and food, by the way, like our like our first opening things were like.
Olivares: the love language of the
Burgos: And I’m like, yes, cafecito immediately, no matter what, wherever I am, you need a nice cup of coffee for sure.
Olivares: Okay. And Ian, what would you say for you? If your identification culturally, what would it be?
Paget: Ooh, uh, Like funny enough with like your intro, what we’re discussing today, it’s like, I actually think a lot of people don’t even think I’m Latino. Um, but I’m half Honduran. So my mom is from Honduras and then my dad’s he’s, you know, his parents were German. So, um, yeah. And, and then being raised in Miami from like 11 and on, you know, it’s like that. that is a big part of my upbringing and culture or whatever. But yeah, I’m half Honduran.
Olivares: Nice.
Burgos: Wow. Yeah.
Olivares: I love it. I mean, yes, Maria, you did use Afro Latina, but for the most parts, we didn’t immediately say just the, the alone word of Latino, because that word really does become this umbrella term that wants to encompass everybody and anybody that might have some similarities. And there’s also this phrasing of the Latino community, which the community part sometimes upsets people.
But I want to ask you, Ian, about even the language of Latino community. make you feel any certain way?
Paget: Uh, it’s funny. I’ve never, I’ve never had own my Latinidad more than in the last couple years, really, because everything is like, well, what are you, who are you? And then if you’re in media, it’s just helpful, people wanna know, and anyway, but I bring this up because I think growing up, I was just like me, and I had my mom, and when you’re in Miami, you don’t really have to say you are part of the Latino community, Or like, I don’t have to wear the badge of that it just like was so all around me Jewish Cubans like, like everyone was around but that’s also specific to my upbringing. And Maria, I would say the same for you
Burgos: Absolutely
Paget: I’m guessing if you’re from the Heights like it’s just…
Burgos: 100%. I grew up in a very Dominican household. Again, I grew up in Washington Heights. So like, Salsa is my favorite genre. I grew up listening to that Bachata. There’s always liveliness. Waking up at 7am and hearing your neighbors like blasting Bachata to get their day started, like, it was very Dominican. I went to school nearby, like elementary and junior high was close by. And then when I went to high school, it’s like, oh, I’m like loud and being myself but like other people are like, well, what? Why is she speaking Spanish? Why? I’m confused. Like, I want to know more about her. Is she Latina?
And it’s just interesting, like to come out of your space and realize, like, oh, I may have to explain. Sometimes I choose not to just because we should, you know, accept people for who they are, accept that we come from different walks of life. Like Ian, he’s. grew up in Miami, but you’re half Honduran and your father has German descent. So like, you know, this is what a lot of us are in the U.S. We’re just mixed up with a whole bunch of different things, right? So I sometimes find myself being like, you know what, receive me how you wanna receive me.
Olivares: Ian, what would you say are some of the main things you get confused for? Cause I mentioned at the top for me, it’s Indian, Middle Eastern, which nothing wrong with that. I, I love that those are some of the comparison points I get, but it just doesn’t resonate with me. What are some of these that you’ve had to field over the years?
Paget: I definitely get, I get a lot of European. So like it’s European, a specific-sometimes people are like, you know, are you Italian? Are you, you Jewish is even, you know, in its own race, obviously. But like, I always get like a little bit of Spanish, like, oh, are French? Like those are kind of where it sticks. So yeah I’ve gotten like everything over the pond mostly across the pond excuse me.
Olivares: And you Maria?
Burgos: Wow. I’ve been called Ethiopian a lot. That’s a main thing. They’re like, Oh, you have to be Ethiopian. And I’ve had several Ethiopian people speak to me in their dialect and I’m like, ‘Uh, no, but thank you. I’m so flattered,’ Sometimes just, you know, Black American. Some people are like, are you Puerto Rican? Are you like…so many different little things. than when some, usually it’s. question when I start to speak Spanish. It’s when like everyone freezes and they’re like um wow your, your Spanish is so great like you have an accent and I’m sure Ian you get the same thing and you’re like
Paget: Funny that you say that is mine is mine because i don’t look Hispanic, people don’t speak to me in Spanish right so that is not usually the first thing that people notice. This one’s a gag–people ask me like where are you from with like a little bit of a squint in their eye when they see me dance.
Olivares: Oh!
Burgos: Oooohh, that one!
Paget: it’s literally what happens like I’ll be out in spaces and the way I move and the way I dance people are like where are you from? That’s literally the question that sometimes happens.
Burgos: They’re like, those hits do not lie. They sure don’t. That’s happened to me too, where they’re like wow, you dance. Uh-huh. And I’m like, I sure do, honey.
Olivares: Put on some aventura, some Elivs Crespo, Celia Cruz, I’m here.
Paget: Yeah, and I am here. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah
Olivares: I’m curious about the distinction between somebody questioning you about who you are and somebody somehow telling you like, no, no. But where are you really from? Because that’s not a question. That’s somebody telling you to correct yourself, to give them the answer they want. So Maria, has there been a moment where you’re just like, somebody’s telling me something that I do not want to hear anymore. for watching.
Burgos: Every day, unfortunately, still living in New York, I get it very often. I remember, for example, years ago, working, I was working as a, I was doing a side job with like banquet serving, and I was talking to one of my colleagues in Spanish, he was, I believe Mexican, and we were just chatting back and forth, adonde ponemos los vasos, adonde putemos los platos, and this man behind me who we were serving. He like waited for me to finish what I was doing, and then was like, I’m so sorry, where are you from? Because you speak Spanish so well, and my wife is Argentinian, and like, I mean, you know, it sounds a little bit different, and I’m not sure, but it was like accusatory, very much like, did you go to school to learn Spanish so while, kind of? And I said, ‘I’m Dominican,’ And granted the proper term is Dominican American, now my parents are Dominican, but I like to be very proud and say I’m Dominican and have people sit with that. Sit with that and hold on to that and figure it out. And he was very, like, taken aback that I was very firm and like, I’m Dominican. And he’s like, yeah, but I’m like, I’m a Dominican, is there anything else I could do for you? And he will sort of just like “Oop.”
Olivares: Ian, what is the most recent moment where you had to force somebody to sit with your answer of like, not only am I Latino, I’m Honduran, Honduran-American, just bye. Like end of conversation, punto final, move on.
Paget: um oh my god you know i i don’t really experience a lot of moments like that because to me when i get to share that i’m latino to me it’s like it’s such a special like bet you didn’t know this also, as I get to answer and tell them— then they’re like super surprised, which I love, cause I’m a show off and I love to surprise people. But I wonder if I was in their head, I wonder if they’re like, oh my God, that’s so cool. I’m literally making something up right now, but this is fun to do hypothetical. But I wonder, if they are like, oh my god, that is great, because I’m white passing. And so to them, they’re like of you’re white passing, look at, oh my gosh, that amazing, but you’re Hispanic.
Olivares: Like something that I have dealt with my entire life, especially leaving my hometown of Eagle Pass, Texas is, oh, this dude’s brown, can’t really hide. In Mexican saying, it’s like el nopal en la frente, where you have the cactus so big on your forehead, you can’t hide that you’re Mexican.
Burgos: Yes.
Paget: And I, it just hit me. One of the other things that I think is the most obvious thing about me is my queerness is like that I’m gay. It’s just always been… I think maybe that’s another reason why my Latina that has never been a thing that like, obviously I’m white passing, blah, blah. But the most obviously thing about me is like, that’s a gay person. I’ve just never really been able to hide it.
Olivares: Mm-hmm.
Paget: Anyway, that’s like a separate thing, but
Burgos: No,it’s important
Olivares: I mean, no, it’s something that it’s absolutely important because it gets to this idea of presentation and the politicization of presentation, like some of the things we can control and some of things that are completely out of it, so I actually want to take a little break because when we come back, obviously there is this, this perception of Latina that that gets to more than what we want Latina to be like people are making choices for us and putting targets on our back because of it. So how do we actually live in that society and in that scenario? So we’re going to talk about that when we get back.
Olivares: So I want to get a little bit deeper into this notion of Latinidad and others’ perception of our identity. And I’m going to do so by sharing this story real quick. So when I was a freshman in high school, my band took a trip to Disney world from f*cking South Texas. We took a charter bus all the way to Orlando, which I don’t suggest.
Paget: How long was that ride?
Olivares: Girl, it was a day and a half, we were poor border kids we couldn’t fly we had to pay for a charter bus. And so if that wasn’t bad enough after having been on a charter bus for a day-and-a-half we arrive at the happiest place on earth and we’re in line for the Dumbo ride and I was the designated leader for some reason. And so we’re in line and the attendant asks like, “Aye how many people are in your team?” so we can like such all up together and me trying to be a good leader, I turn around starting to count people, but I think he mistook what I was doing. So he said, “Oh, uh, cuantas personas, groupo…”
Burgos: What?! Oh my god!
Olivares: and the fact that this…
Paget: …in las escuelas…
Olivares: …in la Bibliotecta…
Burgos: Aye, aye, aye.
Olivares: And the fact that this happened 20 plus years ago, and it’s still not haunts me, but like, it’s still is front of mind for me to remember says that how people receive us is really critical. So I’m curious for you, Maria, if you have a moment, like a standout moment for you where someone was like, this is who I think, or this is my assumption of you right off the bat.
Burgos: Yes. This one’s very interesting so we talked we touched a little bit about colorism in latinidad and um even presenting so for the longest you know my i wore my hair straight and i had a certain esthetic to me just because of course in a lot of hispanic households you feel like you have to present a certain way to be known as latina or latino Um, but then I went through a transition where I went natural and this is my hair now.
And I moved back into my childhood apartment because we’re in rent control in New York. I mean, um, a lot of my neighbors that saw me grow up, they would always speak to me in Spanish. They knew they know me. They know my mom, you know, they know my family. So they always spoke to me in Spanish and my neighbor who hadn’t seen me in a while and saw the change was speaking to me in English as if he was meeting me for the first time. So he was like, “oh, how are you my friend Maria? You look good,” and I was like… ¿Cómo está vecino? and he was still like English. And I was like, this is a very weird exchange.
Olivares: Oh, so he continued in English even after you addressed him in Spanish?
Burgos: Yes! So it was kind of like, okay, clearly you don’t know how to receive me right now because I don’t know, I guess the change somehow made you feel like, okay, she’s not Latina anymore.
Paget: but that’s so interesting that like you’re straightening your like the straightening of the hair to me would be like whatever it’s it’s hiding more of your culture and who you are and then to go more to your naturalness and then for him to speak english that feels a little backwards
Burgos: It’s interesting, right? You’re like, you would think with the straight hair, you would not, you’ll be like, oh, she’s not. Cause I feel like I look way more Latina now than ever. But unfortunately in certain communities where the beauty standard is a certain, or they want it to be a certain thing. You know, that’s why I mentioned colorism. Like in my school, I did grow up with a lot of girls that were lighter than me and had like a very long hair and the light eyes. So I felt different, but not really, because I also saw me in the community. But when I made this change. I when he yeah, it was a very interesting moment. I was standing there like this is very uncomfortable, but okay.
Olivares: And I think it’s so interesting how many, like who exactly is okay with putting you in a, in an uncomfortable position and being okay to stand in this discomfort with you and like, I don’t know, there’s, there was a weird ownership that needs to be taken in that, but Ian, do you have a similar situation where, uh, especially in the line of work that you do, where somebody clocked you or, or made you feel differently about how you actually are in the world?
Paget: it hasn’t happened in that instance, like the way Maria just described, but like, I would say it’s happened in a, in a way that like the work I get. So like, I, I bring this example up because it’s like, it was, it was the first time I noticed it, but I got to do West Side Story when I was right out of college, and I was…
And if you don’t know the show, it’s like Sharks and Jets, Puerto Ricans against the Americans. And I was cast as one of the Jets on the American side and one of weirdest things about being in a show like that where it’s about two gangs who are against each other and what, you know, like a completely different culture, this and that is like, when we would do dance at the gym, I, the whole time was like, I should be on that side with the Sharks.
And I bring this up because like, I think sometimes I, again, I love how I’ve experienced the world and all of that, but like, I have had a little bit of like a resentment towards like, you know, I don’t know, the ether around just like, oh, like, because my last name isn’t Ramirez, which is, if I went with like my mom’s maiden name, Ian Ramirez I think would automatically change how people, like you said, receive me. Yeah, it’s, I think it’s the opposite. It’s the I wish I was seen more Latino than I am.
Olivares: I will say that for a lot of us, this this idea of what Latina that is and who is Latino is about media representation and the narratives that are there. And unfortunately, kind of going back to the face and the name that I have, I remember when I was in college, and I was studying broadcast journalism, that all of my professors immediately when I was getting ready to go to into the workforce, they said, “So you’re doing Telemundo, right? You’re doing Univision?” And I was like, my Spanish is not that great, but just the implication that if I was going to be successful in this field, I was immediately going to have to go to the Latino side of things.
Um, so I’m curious, starting with you, Ian, about just when somebody does recognize that you are Latino, the more typecasting aspect of it.
Paget: I think that’s why I’m really excited to have these conversations is because I don’t think there’s enough story and storytelling being told of like the white passing Latino, like, or like that, that, that it comes- Yeah, it’s just the…
Burgos: Just the spectrum, the spectrum in general of Latino- the variation- We don’t look like one thing and accept that accept it.
Paget: Yeah. And that because I don’t have that last name, does that mean I don’t get to tell my version of like, like Latin story, which is very much embedded in my, my life story. You know what I mean?
Burgos: Exactly.
Olivares: And I love that you talk about, it’s about the stories that we make and the stories that we write. And Maria, as a writer, who incorporates a lot of your identity in what you do and in a lot into your performance. Was that an easy decision from day one?
Burgos: Absolutely. In a way, because I, again, growing up and getting older, I think Ian mentioned this, you get older and then that’s when you notice that you are a little bit different because you’re a little outside of your community. I was so tired of like fighting people on my own identity. And I want to talk about that all the time. And Ian is bringing up so many good points where, like, What is a Latino to you? Why are we, we’re living, why do we have to live within the identity as someone made up for us?
Like in movies, in novellas that my mom watches. For the longest, I’m like, oh, are these white people like, you know, acting like Mexicans and it was actually Mexicans, you know what I mean? But I’m like, but I meet Mexicans and they look like a variation of different things. I meet South Americans, I meet Dominicans, I meet Puerto Ricans and I see a spectrum of different people.
So when I do get met with the question or when I met with like the scrutiny of like, are you sure? I’m like, well, what am I supposed to look like to you? Because apparently you have the definition in your dictionary of what I’m supposed to like.
And like touching on the little bit of acting that I’ve done before, I always get met with like not looking Latina enough and to them it means the straight hair. I have to be maybe a little light skinned. I have certain features and to me that’s confusing because I’m like what? Again, I have met people, there are people in my family that look like Ian and to me I immediately meet them and I’m not seeing like…
Paget: I need to meet them
Burgos: Right. Ian is my cousin. Oh my god. He can really be my cousin.
Olivares: Oh my god, what if this was like a find your roots?
[Laughter]
Paget: No kidding.
Burgos: Yeah, so in my work, I always want to be proud and I always just want to speak to the person that is trying to figure out.
Olivares: Mm-hmm
Burgos: Like, you know, they don’t feel Latino enough or they don’ feel American enough or whatever it is. It’s like, you are a hyphen and that is okay. Yeah.
Olivares: Thank you for the call back to the, to, it is, it’s all about hyphenated identity. Well, I want to end by asking each of you, what’s your favorite part about being Latino? And I’ll say that for me, there’s something beautiful about just hearing Spanish and understanding either all of it, a little bit of it. That we have this energy
Burgos: Like this intimacy that happens, this like, yeah.
Olivares: There’s something beautiful about that communication. So I’m wondering for you, Maria, what is your favorite thing about it?
Burgos: I was going to say la comida, but I would like to say always la comida from any, any Latino communities, countries is the food is always going to hit, it’s always going to hit. There’s always gonna be a special dish. But I will also say it’s just our spiciness, that spiciness to show up in the world. Like, we show up. We always show up, we always, like. you know, whether we don’t present however we’re supposed to present, there’s something about us that another Latina person would be like, that is my people right over there, and I’m gonna go chat with them. So yeah, I would say our spicy.
Olivares: Ian, what is yours?
Paget: Um, I would say there’s a, an immense amount of, uh, heart that I feel like, and I, when you ask like, what’s my favorite part, I think about like my mom a lot, right? And like, because she, to me is my, she’s like my access to that every day. And the way she and my aunts and yes, and like my my Latin side of the family if there’s just such a there’s such a heart for like, you are always family. And that’s how I feel whenever I’m, that’s why I felt speaking to both of you that like immediately there’s just this shorthand, this like way that we get each other. So I guess it would be like the heart, the heart of the community, you know?
Olivares: Nice. I love that we’re now like primos. Well we found out that Ian is probably Maria’s primo, but I’m also included in this family, this huge growing Hyphenación family.
Olivares: So thank you both for joining me for this really in-depth, fantastic conversation. I want to tell our listeners, if you want to follow either of my guests, just go to the show notes and you’ll have all of their information, including how to listen to Ian’s podcast, Tres Leches. And also, if you want to share your thoughts on what should be a topic on Hyphenación, be sure to email us at hyp@kqed.org. ¡Hasta Lleugo!
Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares.
Chris Hambrick is our editor. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale.
Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.
Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.
